240. How Do I Know If I’m Obsessing Right Now?

Today on the podcast, we are answering your questions about scrupulosity.

First, I wanna say thank you to everyone who submitted a question, either via email who get our weekly newsletters. I was asking people if they had questions for this series. So we had some email replies and then, of course, our survey that we did a while ago prior to episode 200. Some of you, I just kind of took the comments from those survey responses and utilized those as questions for this episode.

Welcome, OCD Warriors, to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast, where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace.

I’m Carrie Bach, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode.

For some of these, you wanted to remain anonymous, and we’re respecting that, and for others, you said that we could use your first name in respect to the question. So if you hear a name on the podcast, it’s because that person gave us permission.

Just so you know, our first question is from Sabrina.

Sabrina asks, does anyone else struggle with critical thoughts, especially towards God or his word?

Now, this can be a common intrusive thought, right? You may have a thought, something to the effect of, how do you know the Bible is real? How do you know God’s word is really true?

Some people have other intense, intrusive thoughts that have to do with blasphemy, and of course, these thoughts can be very distressing for someone with scrupulosity because your faith is important to you and you don’t wanna have these particular thoughts about God.

So I would say understand that God knows your brain even better than you do, and the quicker that you’re able to identify these as intrusive thoughts, the easier it’s gonna be to be able to know that you don’t have to respond to them. That it’s not your true inner desire or value to disrespect God, his word, or anything else as a part of your faith system.

One of our podcast listeners, Steve, ask about scripture verses and how different groups or denominations have different interpretations. There may be one that’s stricter than your particular belief, and so how do we deal with these interpretations of scripture?

He said, it doesn’t seem like it’s a hundred percent imaginary because there are people that believe this way in the here and now, even people that don’t have OCD, so of course someone with OCD may think, okay, well now I need to live according to this stricter interpretation of scripture.

What we wanna do is we’re not just automatically looking at sense data with ICBT. I think that’s a misnomer maybe for a lot of people that listen to this podcast even and hear me talk about it. It’s not just about sense data. We also have to look at the obsessional reasoning process.

And so when we look at the obsessional reasoning process, what we’re saying is that we’re distrusting what’s actually in the sensory information in the here and now, which is opening us up to the hypothetical imaginary what ifs, and then applying some logic to those what ifs.

Now we wanna get down to what’s the actual primary obsessional doubt that’s going on, and I would say the primary obsessional doubt is not, What if I’m not interpreting the scripture correctly? At first glance, that may be what you think that doubt is. However, when you look at it a little bit closely and go a layer deep and a layer deep and a layer deep, so what if I misinterpret this scripture and then I say, okay, that means I’m getting something in my relationship with God wrong.

If I’m getting something in my relationship wrong, then the next layer deep would say, well, I don’t have a good relationship with God. You could even start to doubt if you had a relationship with God.

You wanna really get down to that primary obsessional doubt. Is it I’m offending God in some way? Is it I’m going to be disconnected from him in some way? Is it, I’m going to, maybe if you don’t fear losing your salvation, but you fear something else, like being far from God or not following God’s commands for your life, and that’s what you’re really trying to look at.

And then we would say, well, what evidence do we have for that? That you don’t care about God and his commands? We probably don’t have evidence for that as a generality.

If you are a person who is seeking to walk with Christ, we’re not trying to be perfect, but we’re saying, Hey, I am engaging in these spiritual practices to know Christ and to understand him better, like I’m listening to the Holy Spirit. I’m allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in interpreting the word of God.

To me, that’s part of the Spirit’s job as you’re reading the Bible, to reveal those things to you that you need to pay attention to and understand that people’s belief systems change over time, and sometimes that’s due to living life and personal experience.

I’ve shared about a couple of my things before, but honestly, I was raised that Catholics were not true Christians. Somewhere along the lines, I picked that up. I don’t know if that was parents or other teachers, but I have met some Catholics that are fully devoted to following Jesus, and I believe that they have a relationship with the Lord.

Ultimately, it’s not for me to judge who’s in God’s kingdom or not. That’s up to him.

But I’m just giving you an example of something that I was taught, like, Hey, this entire group of people, they don’t know what they’re talking about and they aren’t saved, versus examining that belief and saying, you know what? These people may practice differently than I do, but I also see that they love Jesus and are trying to follow him.

We had a question about Romans 14:23, but whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats. This is in terms of the food sacrifice to idols, because the eating is not from faith, for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

We have to be careful about getting stuck on any one particular scripture passage for a multitude of reasons. We wanna look first at: What is the context of that scripture passage? Who is being spoken to in it? How does that passage or verse apply to the entire chapter? How does it apply to the book? How does it apply to other verses that are similar to it? What are some parallel passages that may speak to some of the same things?

Ultimately, OCD can misapply scripture verses, and you’ll kind of going back to that obsessional reasoning process. Where you’re distrusting, the sense is you are opening up to the imagination and then there’s this logic that’s misapplied, and sometimes scripture verses actually get involved in that misapplied logic, either misunderstanding scripture verses, but not just that. Really just taking them out of context to something that they don’t apply to in the here and now.

Actually, if you look at this, this goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Did God really say this?

And you also look at the temptation of Jesus where the devil is using scripture against him saying, Hey, throw yourself down off this building because basically the angels are gonna come and rescue you. And it’s essentially a misapplying, the Psalm to Jesus in that moment.

We know that in essence is something that the enemy does is lie to us about scripture and what it really says. We have to be cautious.

Kind of going back to wanting to get at that primary obsessional doubt is that if OCD has you hung up on one particular scripture or a couple particular scriptures that you need to go back to, what are we actually doubting here and how is that contributing to the story?

How is this logic that I’m believing from the scripture potentially being misapplied to my actual here and now present situation of what’s going on as I’m making decisions, as I’m discerning God’s will, as I am seeking to live out my Christian faith?

We also want to just remember when it comes down to commandments, there are two main commandments and they’re pretty simple. Love God, love people, love your neighbor as yourself, and we can be so hung up on how to do those things that we actually miss the point entirely, that we actually end up not loving God very well, or not loving people very well because we’re so paralyzed on how to actually do it.

That’s not what God wants for you. That’s not God’s heart. He wants you to be able to freely love him and love others to the best of your ability.

In this particular scripture passage, intention is important. What is your intention when you encounter other believers?

A lot of times in modern day, this gets applied to alcohol, although I don’t think that because we don’t necessarily have meat sacrifice to idols, at least not in the US. That may happen in other parts of the world. I don’t know. I know that in Asian countries sometimes they leave food out for spirits and things of that nature.

However, in my particular context, what does it mean to try not to cause another believer to stumble? It might get applied to alcohol. It might get applied maybe to movies or TV shows that you might consume, whereas you might be okay with that, and that may not affect your spiritual life negatively, but somebody else may watch something, listen to something, and it affects them negatively.

God knows where each person is at, and if I know personally that I don’t drink, but if I did drink, I brought alcohol to someone’s house and didn’t know what their stance was on alcohol. As a believer, maybe that’s probably not the best idea. I might wanna ask or be respectful ahead of time, like, Hey, do you have any qualms about this? Are you okay with it or not?

I think that’s just a matter of respecting other people’s beliefs and preferences and practices.

If you know somebody that is fasting chocolate for Lynch, you’re not gonna bring chocolate over to them. I mean, these are kind of some common sense type of examples of just how we respect other people and where they’re at spiritually and not desiring them to stumble.

I think there are so many times that we overcomplicate things. Simple a lot of times is better.

Someone gave us something about giving up on God. That’s a note that I have from my assistant. I’m not sure exactly what that means. I don’t know if they mean they feel like giving up on their faith because they have scrupulosity and they’re really struggling with it.

I find that that doesn’t seem to be helpful or congruent with most people who struggle with Scrupulosity. Sometimes they feel like, well, if I just give up and just don’t believe anymore, then that’s going to resolve this, when really that’s not the case.

And unfortunately, they may have even been told by some therapists, well, you’re taking your faith way too seriously and you may need to just take a step back and not have those particular high values. Of course, that’s, uh, not what I would consider to be an ethical stance. However, because it’s your values that you’re bringing to therapy.

However, I will say that if you just say, okay, well, I’m not going to believe or I’m not going to follow God, then what I’m gonna do is that that’ll resolve things that OCD is just gonna attach itself to something else. Like if you were able to do that. So it’s not actually going to fix the issue.

Plus, it’s not very easy for us to just automatically change our value system. If we’ve had it for a while, eh, that’s not really true. We can change our value system.

So if I didn’t answer your question on giving up on God, I might need a little bit more detail there.

One of our listeners, Leslie, said, I bet lots of other Christians with OCD feel like Pharisees. We get so hung up sometimes on a little rule instead of focusing on loving God and others like ourselves.

And I would agree with that. I think that that’s completely true and really what we were just talking about. So thank you for confirming that, Leslie.

We had a comment, which I really appreciated, from someone who heard our podcast on hearing from God.

Back on episode 208, we had a podcast called, Is It OCD Voice, or God’s Voice, Hearing From God for Healing with Heather O’Brien, and we got some feedback on that episode.

Someone had said, seemed like some of the things that we talked about seemed like good, spiritual things to be aware of, but other things like dreams, a word from another believer praying for open and closed doors or signs seem to be things that they have encouraged their loved one with scrupulosity to stay away from. Some kinds of things that may be heard in church about God leading people with a particular feeling. That can be prevalent is not very helpful for those with scrupulosity.

So what I wanna say to that, and first of all, apologies for any confusion that may have been occurred by that episode, and I’d love to hear other people’s feedback on that because it’s been a very popular episode that many people have listened to.

So definitely would love further feedback if others have it regarding whether some of those things were helpful or harmful in the scrupulosity discussion.

These are things that I plan to kind of explore further in writings and teachings in the future, because I really want people to be able to discern God’s voice and to be able to discern leadings from the Holy Spirit versus is this OCD trying to just train, wreck, everything that’s going on.

And what I would say is that God speaks to people through a variety of different ways. We can see that in scripture where God did speak to people through dreams in scripture.

At times, I don’t think that God necessarily speaks to me through dreams. I haven’t had that as an experience. God will wake me up with a specific thought sometimes on my mind. Of course, sometimes that’s just Carrie stressed out, so I have to discern those things. I have to take them to God in prayer.

I think that confirmation sometimes can be helpful for us, that there may be things that we’re praying about that someone else says, Hey, and they’ll just affirm something that we’ve already been praying about or thinking about. That can happen quite frequently and be very helpful just in terms of is this God or is this not?

And we also see, I believe in scripture, where Paul was prevented from going to Macedonia. That’s in Acts 16. God has the ability to speak to us in a wide variety of ways, and so I really don’t want to limit God.

I also have to say that what we really wanna look at is, is there a lens of fear here? Is there a lens of, I’ve missed something? Is there a lens of this is not resolving? There is no peace as I’m praying through this and processing it.

Because with OCD, it’s a loop. It goes around in a circle, so it’s something that you’re wrestling with over and over and over without any kind of peace or resolution to it.

Oftentimes, God is speaking to us in a way that is not urgent, like you have to do this exact thing right now. It’s something that he has been teaching us and showing us over time. It’s something that repeatedly comes up for us.

It’s not cloaked in an enormous amount of fear because God is loving and kind to us and gracious.

And I know for me, there are times where I totally miss it. I’m just gonna be honest with you guys. I’m like, oh, like that’s what God has been trying to show me. That’s what he’s been trying to tell me, and I just didn’t get it. And God is gracious to speak it to you again.

So just know that. If you are following him and seeking him and praying, sitting in silence, reading the word of God, you are not going to have to worry about missing what it is that he has for you, missing what he’s trying to speak to you.

If there is an intense amount of, it’s all my fault. If I make the wrong decision, God’s gonna be mad at me. I’m incredibly afraid there’s gonna be eternal consequences, even for something that’s not an eternal consequence situation.

Those are just some really good clues for you that that’s OCD. That’s just a different conversation.

And if you’ve been living with OCD for so long, you’re so used to that voice. You’re used to the condemning voice, you’re used to the fear. You’re used to maybe feeling like that voice was directing you or protecting you in some way or keeping you safe.

We want to do is to open you up to the voice of the Holy Spirit, which is calmer, quieter, peaceful, gentle, loving.

And it may be a situation where you are walking out in faith and don’t feel like God is talking to you all the time.

I think we hear people in church say, God is always speaking and we’re just not listening, and I don’t believe that.

Here’s why. I don’t believe that I can sit with people that I really love, that know me really well, and we can have a connection and we don’t have to say anything. We don’t have to constantly be talking to each other. Just enjoy spending time in each other’s presence.

Now, if a loved one has something to say to me and I’m there, and I’m present, and I’m available, then they’re gonna be able to speak to me about it.

And I believe the Lord is the same way. We have to get quiet sometimes so that we can listen and open ourselves up.

I think in a busy society, that’s the hardest part. Just actually taking the time to slow down long enough to listen and to be available and to be reading God’s word because those are the words of God, so that we can know them and receive them and plant them, get them rooted down deep into our soul and spirit so that they come out at the times that they need to, and God can bring those remembrances to mind for us.

How do I teach my children about the Lord when it causes so much fear for me?

I dunno. What about children’s songs? I’ve been thinking about this myself for my daughter. How can I start to teach her some of these truths?

And we’ve started listening to kids Christian worship music on the way to school, and she likes it because it’s kids singing and it’s fun and upbeat while it’s still teaching her spiritual truths.

We talk about what is she learning with the other kids in Sunday school? She used to go to a Christian program, but now she’s in a secular program, so we’re not getting that from there.

But we have kids’ Bibles and devotional books and things of that nature. Sometimes that’s a little bit easier to access the children’s materials if you have scrupulosity than the full-blown adult materials.

And of course, we want to try to simplify things for children anyway.

I think just taking it one step at a time and leaning on other people and other supports in your life.

This came from someone in the one of our survey respondents, but I, I appreciate that question. I think it’s important.

Another one from the survey, how can you feel good about yourself and still feel Christian?

Yeah, this is one that gets very confusing for a lot of people. They think it’s prideful to feel good about myself.

However, being prideful is like if I brag on my accomplishments and I say, oh, they’re my achievements and I’ve done this, and look at what I’ve done and it’s all about me, like that would be a place of pride.

So I could tell you a prideful story about this podcast would be totally laughable. I’m laughing just thinking about it because what I’m about to tell you so not true is ridiculous.

Here’s my prideful podcast story.

I have over 200 episodes and I have worked so hard on this podcast and I have done a lot of training on OCD and I’ve read all the ICBT books and I have really done the hard work to learn how to share this information with you, and I’ve had to learn about podcasting and how to grow a podcast and it’s all been about Carrie and her effort, and that is why we are here today.

Not a true story at all.

Y’all do not even know how many times I have cried and prayed about this thing and just y’all just.

The more true story would be God broke my heart and caused me to want to share this message of hope for the world. That’s the only reason that I’m here.

Whether it has a certain number of downloads or followers or subscribers, whatever, doesn’t really matter to me. Because it’s about whatever God wants to do for it, and I just really need to be here and be obedient and do the best that I can with what God has stewarded me with.

But really, there would be no Christian Faith in OCD. Uh, prior to that, it was Hope for Anxiety and OCD. There never would’ve been any of that had it not been for God.

Had he not put that on my heart, had he not led me to the right people that could help me and support me along this journey, had I not had, I wanna say fan club.

And what I mean by fan club, I mean is like my husband, very supportive of this podcast. My mother, when she was alive, she was like my number one cheerleader of the podcast.

Listen, she was like passing out podcast cards like crazy. Every time she met somebody, she’s like, my daughter is a podcast. She’s like an ambassador for the show. Really, truly.

So I’ve been blessed to have a lot of support along the way when I had like no episodes. I mean, friends got on here and let me interview them. Very blessed. Very thankful.

You look at those two stories are very different.

I feel good about the second story because I feel like all I did was show up and do my best to do what God asked me to do.

It’s not really because of anything that I have done, but only what God has been able to do in and through me, and people are like. Will contact me and be like, oh, thank you for doing this. This is so great. And I’ve just been so encouraged and I’m like, okay, praise God. Like, that’s awesome.

That’s the only reason we’re I’m able to be here. And just so I’m thankful for that. It’s, it’s not about me.

So I think it’s how you interpret your circumstances in terms of yourself, like feeling good about yourself and what you’re doing in the world, but it’s more than that.

Feeling good about yourself to me is recognizing my value and worth because of Christ, not because of me as a person.

The only reason that I have value is because I’m created in the image of God, because he loved me first, because I was still a sinner. Christ died for me. Like that’s the reason that I have value and worth is because I have been forgiven and because God loved me and sent his son to die for me.

That’s feeling how I can feel good about myself and still be a Christian.

There you have it.

This one came from the survey and it’s about prayer.

We have had episodes in the past about prayer, but they were talking about it should be simple, but I find it so hard. And are there different ways that you can pray? Does it need to be certain way? How do you know if you’re just praying or you’re thinking something in your head?

I would say there are many different ways to pray.

You know, we’ve had an episode in the past on breath prayers. That was back on episode 75 with Jennifer Tucker.

And essentially what a breather is, is it’s where you take, uh, pieces of scripture and when you inhale, you say part of that scripture in your head.

So it could be like Psalm 46. The Lord is my refuge and strength. You would inhale and then exhale and ever present help in times of trouble.

There’s a Psalm 23. You could inhale the Lord is my shepherd, and then as you exhale, I shall not want, or I have what I need. Kind of depending on what translation you are looking at there.

That’s just one example of how to pray.

When we did prayer and fasting at our church earlier this year, our pastor put together a booklet of different ways to pray.

One of them is praying through the Lord’s Prayer, and not just praying through exactly as it’s written in scripture, but using that as a starting point.

So praising God, recognizing his name and his holiness. Recognizing him as your father, praying about God’s kingdom, advancing God’s will, being done, presenting your requests and your needs before God, submitting your will over to him, et cetera.

So that’s one way to pray.

There are, there’s praying scripture. You can pick specific scriptures and pray through them, putting your name in there. Many different ways to pray.

I know that some traditions have specific like liturgical prayers that they pray, maybe specific times or specific seasons.

There’s many different ways to pray, or you don’t have to have a very rigid, specific structure.

Sometimes your prayer can just be, I need help right now, or I feel overwhelmed, or, God, I need you.

That is a prayer in itself. God, I need you today, or I need you right now.

I think that we don’t need to overthink it or over structure it, or it’s just talking to God and finding a way to connect with him.

Another thing this individual said, which I feel like is a really good point to talk about, is, is that I don’t feel like I can feel my feelings. Because I’ve prayed about it. If it’s surrendered over to God, I’m supposed to be at peace when I’m done praying.

And the reality is that’s the ideal, but it’s not always what we experience.

Sometimes we pray about something and our feelings have not fully caught up, and that’s okay. Sometimes we still may feel distressed about something because we’re still in uncertainty. The situation hasn’t been resolved at this point, and we have to sit with that and trust.

Trust can be really hard. It can be hard to trust God, especially if you’ve been hurt by a lot of people in your past, or even spiritual leaders.

Maybe you feel like God didn’t handle it the way that you wanted him to with the situation in the past. So you feel like, well, God, you allowed this negative thing into my life. So it’s hard to trust you with this piece right here.

We can pray that our feelings align with our faith, and sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t.

And so we still have to find ways to process our feelings, whether that’s sadness, grief, anger, frustration, guilt, shame, like all of those things, we have to learn how to cope with them in a healthy way.

Praying doesn’t mean that I don’t need any coping skills or that prayer should be like my only way of coping with my emotions.

I think it’s a great way, don’t get me wrong, being able to pour your heart out to the Lord and bring things to him and wrestle through issues that you might be facing. That’s really great for your mind, your body, and your emotions.

But sometimes you may still be in distress, and you know what? You may need to go for a walk or you may need to take some deep breaths, or you may need to call a friend, or you may need to enlist some other healthy, godly coping skills as well.

We had some questions about receiving support for OCD from a spouse or from other people that you might be in ministry with working with.

Now, back on episode 142, we did have, How Do I Tell Someone I Have OCD? That episode may be particularly helpful for some of you if that’s something you’re wrestling with.

Now, I do want to have like a marriage and family, more relationship type expert on to talk with us about involving spouses in treatment processes and what that would look like.

So that will be coming in the future when I find the right person to connect with and we’re able to record that. I think that that would be a very helpful episode for the audience, ’cause I know that that’s something that comes up a lot.

We have other things that I’m still trying to curate guests for.

We are gonna do an interview at some point on OCD and autism overlap, hopefully one more with family situations and marriages this summer peripherally. If it all comes together, we’re going to have another personal stories, theories of people who have struggled with OCD.

I’d love to have an episode on Christian neuroplasticity, being a parent with OCD. I think there are so many great topic suggestions, and some of these I would really feel more comfortable addressing with guests that know more about it, certain aspects than I do, especially since I don’t work with children with OCD.

That hasn’t been my experience and haven’t really done a whole lot of family therapy or couples counseling in that realm.

We had someone reach out recently who had experienced trauma. They had been in remission from OCD symptoms and then experienced a trauma, which seemed to open up and exacerbate. I don’t know if it was a new theme or a prior theme that had come back up from their past.

And so, know that intersection of trauma and OCD, it’s something that I feel very passionate about in dealing with some of those, whether it’s childhood traumas or adult traumas, things that seem to be really stuck.

I’ve just found in my experience, that can exacerbate OCD symptoms or cause this high level of hypervigilance in the body.

We also know that about 25% of people with an OCD diagnosis also qualify for A-P-T-S-D diagnosis, and many other people that don’t necessarily qualify for a full-blown PTSD diagnosis have been impacted by some type of difficult life experience that has ingrained and affected how they view themselves or how they view God or the world around them in terms of safety.

So if you feel like the trauma piece is really loud, I would say don’t be afraid to talk to a trauma therapist that knows about OCD.

Even if they would say, I really focus more on trauma than I focus on OCD, how much of that are they able to understand or are they able to work with an OCD specialist to help you kind of get pair and get the treatment that you need?

You know, that may look different for different people.

It may mean that you go to a trauma therapist for a little while and then you go to an OCD specialist for a little while. It may be that you go to the OCD specialist and then go to the trauma therapist.

Just kind of depending on how your symptoms are, what feels the loudest right now? What feels the most urgent that you need to attend to?

And usually professionals can help you tease out those pieces if they aren’t able to deal with both.

In an ideal world, you would have somebody have a therapist that had an understanding of trauma and an understanding of OCD to be able to craft a good, solid treatment plan for you moving forward.

We had a question about obsessional concerns regarding Mark of the bees type situations.

I’m not an expert on end-times theology by any means, but my understanding is that that’s not something we can just do accidentally, but that this is something that during the time of tribulation that people are going to voluntarily get in order to be able to buy and sell goods, and that’s gonna be a decision that has to be made.

I don’t know that believers are gonna be able to get that. I don’t know how all of that works, but I do know that it is not something that we have to be concerned about in the here and now according to how I am reading scripture.

Other people may look at that differently or examine times of tribulations. Some people believe we’re in it right now. Other people believe it hasn’t started yet. We haven’t gone through it, and that is of course up for debate and interpretation.

What we do know is if you’re so wrapped up in that, any type of these type of theological issues, if you’re super wrapped up or stuck on it and it’s getting in the way of you living your life, it would make sense. That’s OCD, distracting you from the things that are most important to you, that you really value, whether that’s getting up, going to work, connecting with your family and friends and ministry partners, and that’s what we want to be able to do to help you function in those realms so that you can keep moving forward in your walk with Christ.

Thank you so much for listening today, and I hope that this Q&A episode was helpful for you.

If it was, maybe we’ll do one every once in a while. We’ll kind of keep it around.

I am hopeful that maybe we’ll be able to do a relationship series at some point or another. And I would love to kind of have some different guests and talk about OCD in the context of various relationships.

As always, we love suggestions and questions, even if it takes us a little while to be able to get people on the podcast who can speak to some of those issues.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith in OCD is a production of by the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.