Skip to main content

Tag: Scrupulosity

213. Pt 2: Why Scrupulosity is so Complicated and Hard to Treat

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie continues exploring why scrupulosity can feel so layered and difficult to untangle. She examines the hidden fears, spiritual experiences, and beliefs about God that may be quietly fueling the struggle.

Episode Highlights:

  • How scrupulosity often attaches itself to other OCD themes
  • What it means to identify the “primary obsessional doubt” beneath the surface
  • Why theology and personal history both matter in recovery
  • How early relationships can shape your view of God
  • Why healing may require examining both belief systems and identity
  • What it looks like to move from an identity rooted in fear to one rooted in being loved

Episode Summary:

Why Is It So Hard to Trust a Therapist When You Have Scrupulosity?

Welcome back, OCD Warriors.

In Part One, we talked about the lack of awareness in church spaces, beliefs about mental health and medication, and how Christians sometimes struggle with thoughts and feelings. Today, I want to go deeper.

One of the most complicated layers of scrupulosity is this: distrust.

Many Christians struggling with OCD come to me after trying to get help from someone who simply did not understand what they were going through. Sometimes the first person they talk to does not have the clinical training to treat OCD well. Other times, they sit across from a therapist who does not share their faith and cannot grasp why certain fears feel so spiritually intense.

That experience lingers.

It makes you cautious. It makes you hesitant to try again. And sometimes it makes you question whether real help even exists.

Why Does Getting Help for Scrupulosity Feel So Complicated?

Scrupulosity lives in a space where faith and clinical treatment intersect.

Because the fears sound spiritual, it makes sense to seek spiritual help first. But OCD follows a specific reasoning pattern, and without understanding that process, reassurance can unintentionally make things worse.

On the other hand, working with someone who does not understand why certain fears feel eternal can feel just as unsettling.

That tension alone can delay healing.

Why Does Scrupulosity Rarely Show Up Alone

Another layer that makes this theme so complex is that it often attaches itself to other OCD struggles.

Relationship doubts can turn into fears about being outside of God’s will. Intrusive thoughts can morph into questions about salvation. Contamination fears can become spiritualized.

Now the anxiety feels heavier. Not just uncomfortable, but ultimate.

And if we only focus on the surface issue, we may never get to the deeper fear underneath.

What Is Beneath the Surface of the Fear?

When we slow down enough, there is often something more vulnerable at the core.

Not just “Am I right?”
But “Am I still loved?”
Not just “Did I sin?”
But “Am I disconnected from God?”

Until that layer is acknowledged, treatment can feel like circling the same arguments again and again.

How Do My Experiences Shape My View of God?

For some people, scrupulosity is intertwined with early experiences of authority, correction, or fear.

If you grew up feeling constantly criticized, it can subtly shape how you imagine God responding to you. If you learned that love was conditional, that belief can follow you into your spiritual life.

Sometimes the nervous system is reacting to old patterns, not to God Himself.

Healing may require looking gently at where those patterns began.

What Happens When My Identity Begins to Shift?

If you have long believed you are disappointing to God, stepping into the identity of beloved child can feel unfamiliar at first.

New beliefs require a new identity. And even good change can feel destabilizing.

Scrupulosity is layered for a reason. It is not simply a lack of faith or effort.

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, we continue unpacking why this theme can be especially complicated to treat and what that means for your healing journey.

If this resonates, I invite you to listen and lean in. 💛

Explore Related Episode

141. Is OCD Keeping You From Reading the Bible?
154: Using Christian Meditation to Go Deeper with God, an interview with Jennifer Tucker
Transcript

Welcome back, OCD Warriors, to part two of Why Is Scrupulosity So Complicated and Hard to Treat? Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present, abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

I got really long-winded, so we did part one last week, where I went over three points in greater detail. I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode if you haven’t already. As a quick review, the first three points were: a lack of awareness in the church or biblical counseling circles, which leads to a delay in treatment; two, all kinds of beliefs about mental health and medication in the church; and number three, the Christian church has an unhealthy relationship at times with thoughts and feelings. So let’s dive right into the next point.

Number four, why scrupulosity is so complicated and hard to treat, is a severe distrust of non-Christian providers, as I spoke about in terms of the biblical counseling examples. Unfortunately, Christians who are struggling with OCD, often the first person they seek help from lacks the necessary skills and experience to truly be able to help them. I find that really sad, but that’s the truth.

Now, some people don’t trust non-Christian providers based on past negative experiences, and I’ve heard all of the stories from you guys about trying to seek help and really just feeling like the person just didn’t get it. I mean, I think as clients—I’m someone who’s the therapist, but I’ve been to several different therapists—sometimes you sit down with a therapist and you can just exhale. You’re like, ah. They get it. They understand what I’m dealing with. They’re able to make empathetic reflections and say, yeah, that makes sense to me, and here’s why. It seems like you’re feeling this way, and there’s this sense of relief that comes over you, like, okay, this person is gelling. But then there are other times where you meet with therapists and you’re like, this person just has no idea what I am going through right now. They may have difficulty empathizing with your experience.

This can be true if someone doesn’t believe in God or value religious experience. They may have a really hard time empathizing that potential blasphemy or potential sin is really distressing to you, or this idea that you might be outside of God’s will or that you might not go to heaven. It can be just hard for them to get that. Maybe at the same time, there have been negative experiences where people have done non-religiously sensitive exposures, haven’t really worked with a pastor or spiritual leader, as IOCDF really recommends and proposes, just making sure that the clinician is working with the church, especially if they’re unfamiliar. Sometimes those things have happened.

Also, I’ve heard stories about therapists maybe making fun of hell, for example, trying to kind of make things more lighthearted or get the client to not take it so seriously. However, of course, this is going to be very distressing to somebody with scrupulosity who believes hell is a real place.

I just want to say a note here about, okay, in an ideal world, you would be able to find a Christian who has good clinical knowledge about OCD and is able to treat you. What if you have to go into maybe an intensive outpatient treatment program, a residential treatment program? What if you really, really need to use your insurance? You’re financially limited in the providers that you can see. Maybe there aren’t a whole lot of people who take insurance that are treating OCD. I would say, I think a lot of times people fear being led astray, but typically those people that fear that are pretty strong and grounded in what they actually believe. And I would say, don’t underestimate God’s ability to use nonbelievers.

What I mean by that is you look at this whole situation with Moses and Pharaoh, for example. Ultimately, God used Pharaoh and the Egyptian people, who were not following Him, in order to bless the people of Israel. They essentially got all of this gold and other things that they gave them for their journey, let them release them from slavery in the end, of course, after all the plagues and all that. This is shown through Scripture, even God using other nations to discipline Israel. So don’t underestimate the ability for God to use nonbelievers. If you need treatment and you need help, if you find a really good clinician, they’re going to be somebody that wants to work with you from your particular faith experience and your particular belief systems.

Now, people may think that it’s easier for me because I’m a Christian who works with Christians. Newsflash: it’s not. I still have to do this work myself because there are so many different denominations and streams of Christianity. I have to ask a lot of questions often to find out where people are coming from, and people don’t always hold the same beliefs or practices that I do. And so I’m really looking at where are they coming from, how are their symptoms affecting them, and how maybe their beliefs are intertwined. The OCD is intertwined with the particular belief system, and understanding the belief system and the practices, of course, helps.

I can tell you just from personal experience that working with somebody who’s Catholic versus somebody who’s in the Orthodox church versus somebody who’s a Mennonite versus somebody who’s in a charismatic church—their beliefs and practices may be very different, and that’s okay. Regardless of where you’re coming from, you can still recover in your OCD journey. You don’t have to completely change denominations or anything of that nature.

Number five, scrupulosity often does not exist by itself but becomes an offshoot of other OCD themes. It’s pretty rare that I find somebody who is only dealing with scrupulosity. Typically, they have had a history of other OCD themes, or they’re starting with one OCD theme, and then scrupulosity interferes and almost adds this whole other layer on top of the theme.

So even if someone has, for example, themes about relationships—should I be with this person or not?—then that can go into, well, if I marry this person, then I’m somehow messing up God’s will for my life if it wasn’t meant for us to be together. It could be a situation where I have some type of contamination OCD, but then that gets blended in with, it’s a sin to be contaminated, or I’m unclean in some type of way because of my sin. And so then I’m doing some type of hand-washing rituals because of certain thoughts I’m having.

So I’ve seen this come up quite a bit. Any type of sexual themes also ends up feeding scrupulosity. What kind of Christian am I if I have these thoughts? Maybe that means this about my faith. I don’t really love God because I’m having these types of intrusions or I’m having sexual intrusions. And then, like I said before, confusing that temptation for sin. So scrupulosity getting combined with other forms of OCD creates these extra layers to deal with, right?

So we’re not really at the root of the issue sometimes when we’re just dealing with the scrupulosity if it is connected to another theme. So it may be helpful to look at what someone was obsessing with before the scrupulosity came along and latched onto the top of it. Even something like I gave the example before about the denominations. It’s like, are we really at what ICBT would call the primary obsessional doubt? You can get caught up in the weeds a lot in scrupulosity, which makes it super hard on the treatment end.

So for the example that I gave earlier about which denomination to follow, is that really the primary obsessional doubt? Or is the primary obsessional doubt at a deeper layer, such as, what if I offend God, or what if I make the wrong decision and I’m outside of what God wants me to do? People can spend a lot of time in therapy hashing out these ideas or ruminating about, well, this denomination says this and that denomination says that. You can get super in the weeds about Calvinism versus communionism and these other things that may be really bothering someone, but then you’re never actually getting down to the root of what is actually scaring them.

What are you actually concerned about? And typically what I’ve seen is there’s some type of worry or doubt about being disconnected from God in some way, shape, or form. Whether that’s present disconnection from God—I’m going to be sinning and God’s going to be displeased with me—or whether it’s future disconnection from God in terms of I’m not going to be saved and I’m not going to be going to heaven. You’re not going to really be able to deal with the issue if you can’t get down to the primary obsessional doubt in terms of ICBT or some type of core fear that you’re experiencing.

Oftentimes, it’s really hard for people to go there because it’s very scary. It feels very vulnerable, and it’s hard to even maybe know in your own mind, what am I really doubting in this situation? If you do get down to that point—this fear of disconnection from God or fear of punishment or being unsafe, somehow missing something, and then if I miss it, I’m somehow going to be displeasing or rejected—when you get there to that vulnerable, scary place, then you can be able to recognize the obsessional reasoning process, the arguments that OCD is using, and get to what your alternative narrative needs to be.

Now, when you hit that primary obsessional doubt and, in essence, this core thing that you’re afraid of, then we get to point number seven, where treating scrupulosity requires that you take a hard look at your theology and where it came from. We get all kinds of ideas about God, whether that was from a pastor you grew up with who was hellfire and brimstone. You may not believe those things about God now, but it’s still stuck back in there in your subconscious, and your nervous system remembers that fear, that intense fear that you felt when you heard that pastor.

You may have had parents that quoted certain Scripture verses to you or were very harsh toward you in their discipline, and they may have somehow incorporated God into certain things. OCD-wise, God doesn’t want you to be a lazy person. God doesn’t want you to be dirty. Cleanliness is next to godliness, whatever it was. Those ideas from people got mixed in with your theology. You have to be able to examine, how did I come to believe the things that I do about God? I think that is crucial.

Oftentimes, there are things that we don’t recognize because it’s just the water that we’ve been swimming in. Until you get in treatment or talk to another therapist where they’re like, where did you come to have that belief? Or how did you get to that point? It’s like, well, it just is. It’s black and white, right?

There’s a lot of conversation nowadays about deconstructing your religious beliefs that you were taught and that you grew up with. You really don’t want to have deconstruction unless you’re going to have some type of reconstruction, right? What are we going to believe now about God? Are we going to use Scripture to inform our belief systems, or are we going on our own experiences?

Knowing that your experiences with God, if you have a relationship with Him, there may be experiences that you have that really challenge what you were taught. There may be Scriptures that you read in the Bible where you say, wait a minute, I wasn’t taught that. I was taught that I was nothing in the sight of God, that I wasn’t important, that I wasn’t valued, that I was just kind of here for God’s purposes. I was basically taught that I was scum. Now I’m seeing all these verses in the Bible about how God rejoices over me with singing, that we talked about on the love episode on the podcast, how God has loved us with an everlasting love, how God sees me as His child. And I look at my own children and see how I see them, and if God sees me that way, then wow, that’s completely different than what I grew up believing.

Whatever it is for you, I think you have to be able to take a hard look and recognize maybe something that I believe is not true and it’s not in alignment with my relationship with God.

I’ll give you a very small example in my life that is not of huge relevance, but I was taught as a child, growing up in the Baptist church, that speaking in tongues was not a thing, that it was a thing in the Bible. My dad was a very strong cessationist, where they believed that there was a point where speaking in tongues ceased and it was no more. Since being an adult and going to different churches, I’ve met some people that I consider to be very godly people and strong believers who speak in tongues. So I have a respect for those people, even though I haven’t been given that gift myself.

I would say that that’s one belief that has changed based on my own review of the Scriptures for myself as an adult and through personal experience of talking with other believers. I think we have to free ourselves to acknowledge that maybe our past self was wrong about something, and that’s okay. And maybe our beliefs can change. That’s not necessarily a bad thing.

I know that Steve and I have talked about this with some other non-essential beliefs, that some of his views on certain things have changed over time based on reading the Bible, prayer, personal experience, and talking with other people. So it’s okay and, I think, healthy every once in a while to examine what you believe about God and understand where that came from and why you believe that.

Number eight is you have to be willing to examine how your relationships with others are impacting the scrupulosity, how they’ve impacted your view of God. Specifically, those early relationships that we had with parents, teachers, coaches, grandparents really can influence how we view God. Oftentimes, we take those experiences from other people and place them onto God.

If you just felt like people were constantly disappointed in you, like you could never live up to their expectations, it makes sense that you would believe that God is that way. If you feel like people were just very harsh and always pointing out what you were doing wrong, or you were constantly being punished, maybe you really struggled to please people but you always seemed to get in trouble, and the punishment maybe didn’t quite fit the crime, was maybe harsher than it needed to be—I don’t know what your experience was—but that might be another example where you feel like, okay, God is really harsh and is coming down on me pretty hard.

I had a father who was pretty big and could be pretty scary when he was angry. Not in an I’m going to be beat up kind of way, but more of an authoritative, verbally scary type of way. I definitely put that onto God, like maybe God is like Dad and He’s going to yell at me if I get in trouble, or He’s going to be upset with me if I do the wrong thing. And it took me a while into my adulthood to be able to even call God Father. That just didn’t seem quite right to me.

This understanding now of God as a loving Father has completely changed and shifted things for me. It’s been a healing journey and very therapeutic for me. But it took me a while to get there because, as I shared on the very first episode of this podcast, when I was growing up, God seemed to be very harsh to me. In the Old Testament, God seemed very angry. Now I have a much more balanced view of that because I can definitely see God’s love throughout different pieces of the Old Testament. But back when I was a kid, things didn’t quite make as much sense for me.

I also didn’t see God as wanting to be intimately involved in every aspect of my life. I think my parents did a really good job of taking us to church and talking to us about God when it came to the big things and the moral things. But I really want my daughter to know something that maybe my child self didn’t know, that God cares about your math test on a Tuesday just as much as He cares about you making the right decision over here about something. God wants to be intimately involved in your life. He wants you to go to Him over all types of different things. Things that seem small to us are not insignificant to Him, and He has enough space to hold them. It’s not like we’re going to bother God. If we go to Him about our math test, He’s not going to be like, why are you talking to Me about that? He’s going to be like, I’m so glad that you talked to Me about that. God wants to give us peace.

I didn’t get that picture of God growing up, and now I’m able to tell my daughter, you can talk to God about anything, whatever you need to. And she just has these really sweet prayers at night where she thanks God for different toys in her room, and I just think that that’s beautiful.

Oftentimes, we overcomplicate our connection with God. Jesus said, come like a child. So if we look at how children approach God, then it’s much more simple and much easier than trying to follow a huge, long list of rules or picking apart every little thing to determine whether or not it’s a sin or it’s okay. I think that children have a greater understanding of things being about the heart and doing things out of love.

So how have your relationships with caregivers impacted your view of God? This is really where I believe a great EMDR application can come in. Because if we do have some of those wounding experiences that are stuck in our nervous system and you’re able to process through that and come to the other side where you’re feeling calmer and recognizing, oh, okay, I was hurt by certain people, or I understand I’m making a connection now between a parent and viewing God as harsh, or this super critical parent and viewing God as critical. That type of work typically isn’t going to enter into typical ERP or ICBT treatment.

One of the things that I think is really important and critical is to look at individuals as whole people, to look at the various aspects of what’s happening for them versus looking at them from a lens of diagnosis. When I was much earlier on in my career, someone would come to me and say, hey, I have trauma. I’m like, hey, great, I do this trauma therapy called EMDR. We could handle that. Or someone would come and say, hey, I have anxiety. Oh, great, here’s some tools that I can give you for anxiety. There’s also some things that we can do with EMDR that will really help you get down to the root and not have to carry so much anxiety around in your nervous system.

And it was this much cleaner process, right, of here’s a problem that someone has, and then here’s an appropriate intervention. And it’s also somewhat what we’re taught in school. The longer that you go along, the more complex individuals you find and the more you recognize different approaches can be helpful in different circumstances and situations. I don’t believe in a one-size-fits-all treatment process for anyone.

New beliefs require a new identity. If you are going to embrace new beliefs about faith, new beliefs about God—if you are no longer the unworthy stepchild in the family of God and you are going to be the beloved child—that requires putting on a new identity in Jesus. Sometimes shedding that old identity that’s comfortable or familiar to embrace your new identity in Christ can be really, really challenging if you’ve lived for a really long time believing God was disappointed in you or that you weren’t good enough or that you weren’t ever going to be able to meet His standards.

And now you’re trying to shift over every day into believing that you are absolutely and completely loved, that you have been saved, that the cross is the finished work of Jesus Christ, and there’s nothing else that you need to do to earn God’s love. Ephesians 4 talks about putting off the old self and putting on the new self and understanding who you are in Christ. Freedom is going to be uncomfortable at first if it’s a new experience for you.

What do you think about these points that I came up with? I would love to hear from you. If you’re a therapist that treats scrupulosity, if you’re a person that struggles with it, if you have a family member or a loved one, I’d love to hear your honest feedback on this episode because I just want to know, are other people seeing what I’m seeing in the world and talking about the complexities that get brought into the scrupulosity equation?

If you are struggling with scrupulosity, my hope is that you’ve gotten a few things out of this episode. One is that there is hope for you, that there is a pathway forward, that it may be complicated, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t get help with this. Number two, I hope that it’s validating to you that if you’ve struggled, if you’ve been to a couple different therapists, if you’ve tried the biblical therapy and then tried a clinical counselor who wasn’t Christian and tried to find this happy medium of what you were looking for between solid biblical truth and clinical skills that are going to be able to help you, know that you’re not alone. We get emails from people all the time who are seeking to find that.

If you happen to be a therapist that you feel like is aligned with that vision, where you’re a strong believer and also have strong clinical skills, please write to us. Please reach out via the podcast. You can go to kerrybock.com/podcast. There should be a contact form on there. If not, you can hit us up on the main contact form on the website. We’d love to hear from you. We probably could provide you some referrals because we do have people that reach out to us and ask, do you know anyone in my state? And unfortunately, nine times out of ten, the answer is no.

So if you are a Christian counselor who has some things you want to talk about or have conversations about on the podcast, we’d love to have you and love to be able to add you to our very small, at this point, referral list for Christians who are struggling with OCD.

And if you feel like you’ve only been getting a one-size-fits-all approach, it’s a really great opportunity for you to advocate for yourself and to figure out, okay, what’s the next step? What do I need? I provide consultations for people. I provide intensive experiences, multi-day therapeutic retreats. I have an online course called Empowered Mind for Christians who are struggling with all types of OCD, but many people in there are specifically struggling with scrupulosity. Come join that program and really squeeze all of the goodness that is in there out of it. It’s been able to help a lot of people at this point, and I pray that it continues to be able to help people who feel like they haven’t been able to get the help that they needed before, where it’s been out of reach for some reason for them.

You can reach me at carriebock.com. I love hearing from you guys. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

212.  Pt 1: Why Scrupulosity is so Complicated and Hard to Treat

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

As we continue the Scrupulosity Series, Carrie unpacks the hidden layers that make religious OCD uniquely complex, especially when spiritual doubt, fear of sin, and confusion about God’s character get tangled in the OCD cycle.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why scrupulosity (religious OCD) is more complex than other OCD themes and why it often feels harder to treat
  • How church culture and biblical counseling can unintentionally reinforce the OCD cycle
  • Why reassurance about salvation, sin, or blasphemy can actually make scrupulosity worse
  • How mental health stigma in Christian spaces delays proper OCD treatment
  • The difference between intrusive thoughts, temptation, and actual sin from a biblical perspective
  • How black-and-white theology and fear-based thinking keep religious OCD stuck

Episode Summary:

Have you ever wondered why scrupulosity feels harder to untangle than other types of OCD? Not just distressing or intrusive, but deeply personal. Like it’s wrapped around your faith, your salvation, and your relationship with God in a way that makes everything feel higher stakes.

When I sat down to record this episode, I truly thought I could cover it all in one sitting. I couldn’t. There are too many layers. So we’re taking this in two parts.

If you’ve been feeling stuck or confused about why this struggle feels so intense, I think this conversation is going to bring some clarity.

Why Does Scrupulosity Feel Different From Other OCD Themes?

On paper, OCD follows similar reasoning patterns across themes. But when it attaches itself to your faith, it hits differently.

You’re not just afraid of being wrong. You’re afraid of sinning. You’re afraid of losing your salvation. You’re afraid of disappointing God.

That spiritual weight changes everything. And it’s one of the reasons scrupulosity feels uniquely heavy.

Why Do Christians With Scrupulosity Go to Pastors First?

Because the fears sound spiritual.

If you’re thinking, “What if I blasphemed?” or “What if I’m not truly saved?” of course you’re going to seek spiritual guidance. That makes sense.

But what if what you’re experiencing isn’t primarily a spiritual problem?

What if it’s OCD attaching itself to the thing you value most?

That distinction matters more than you may realize.

Can Reassurance Make Scrupulosity Worse?

This one is tender.

Reassurance feels comforting in the moment. But if the doubt keeps coming back, if the relief doesn’t last, if you find yourself asking the same question in slightly different ways, that may not be weak faith.

It may be the OCD cycle strengthening itself.

Understanding that changes how we approach healing.

Is Taking Medication for OCD a Lack of Faith?

I hear this concern more than you might think.

Some believers quietly carry shame about therapy or medication, wondering if it means they’re not trusting God enough.

But you can love Jesus deeply and still need professional support. Sometimes God’s provision shows up through doctors, therapists, and medication. That doesn’t make you less spiritual. It makes you human.

Why Do Intrusive Thoughts Feel Like Sin?

Scrupulosity blends categories in painful ways.

A thought feels like an action. A temptation feels like a moral failure. A doubt feels like proof.

But having a thought is not the same thing as choosing it.

And learning to separate those pieces is a huge part of healing.

Press play and join me for this conversation.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

So what’s the deal? Why is scrupulosity so complicated, so hard to treat? I’ve said before that the obsessional reasoning process is the same, and so it doesn’t really matter what theme that you have. Inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, will work for you. However, I’d like to somewhat revise my statements on this because even though ICBT can work for all themes of OCD, scrupulosity, I’ve realized, is a whole other animal. There are so many different layers of complexity to this that we really need to talk about—challenges that people run into when they’re trying to get help for scrupulosity, as well as challenges therapists might run into who are trying to help people struggling with scrupulosity.

I’ve come up with several points.

Number one is the lack of awareness in churches and biblical counseling circles that leads to a delay in clinical treatment for scrupulosity. This is a huge issue because most people see this as a spiritual problem. They’re going to seek a spiritual solution first. That just makes sense. They’re gonna go to a pastor, a ministry leader, a biblical counselor, and say, “Hey, I’m wrestling with this issue. I’m afraid maybe I’ve blasphemed. I’m afraid maybe that secretly I’m really a Pharisee. I’m a wolf in sheep’s clothing that the Bible is talking about. I think maybe I’ve lost my salvation.” All of these different ruminations that Christians who are struggling with scrupulosity have.

Unfortunately, many people still have this idea in their head of OCD that it’s like Monk and they’re all germaphobes, or they all have color-coordinated closets. And we really need to do more education within the church. We had a podcast episode that I did with Rachel Kuku Woodward on what I wish pastors knew about OCD. Please share that with your pastor, your ministry leader, deacons in your church. We would love to get that information out there because people need to know what religious OCD looks like.

Oftentimes they don’t know what religious OCD looks like, and some of these issues can be common spiritual doubts among people that don’t have OCD. There is a delay in seeking care. What happens is people will go to these individuals for reassurance. They’ll receive some reassurance, but of course it doesn’t stick. So then the person is coming back and is even more distressed and more upset. Or maybe they’re ruminating about a completely different spiritual issue the next time. So it doesn’t occur to the person that’s talking to them that this is what OCD looks like.

I have gotten to the point where I shudder a little bit when someone with OCD tells me that they’re going to biblical counseling. Now some of you are like, “Carrie, I know that you’re a Christian and I know that you read the Bible and love the Lord. So why would you say that? Are you anti-biblical counseling?” No, I’m not anti-biblical counseling. I think it has its place. I think it might be really helpful for someone that’s, for example, trying to figure out how to emulate a godly marriage according to the Bible. Maybe they didn’t have good examples of that, or maybe they just didn’t grow up in a church that was teaching about how to be a godly wife or how to be a godly husband. Maybe it could be really great for people who are needing to deal with forgiveness. They find themselves having a lot of bitterness or a lot of anger towards things that have happened to them that they wanna deal with on a spiritual level and forgive people. I went through some of that work in college. It was amazing and incredibly helpful for me.

So I think there is a place for biblical counseling—not when it comes to OCD treatment. The reason for that is because 97 out of a hundred times, that person is going to said biblical counselor who doesn’t have any knowledge about OCD, how to treat OCD, and that person is just providing reassurance or co-ruminating with the individual with OCD, which is only strengthening the process, once again delaying treatment and causing the OCD to strengthen and get worse. Think about this for a minute. Someone is gonna get help and the help they’re seeking is actually making them sicker. This has gotta stop. We have to educate and coordinate our faith communities as therapists and be working arm in arm together to help support people in the best way possible—spiritually, mentally, emotionally, medically.

Number two, scrupulosity is really complicated and hard to treat because there are all kinds of different views about mental health and medication in the church today. Now I believe that we have come a long way. I am very hopeful. The reason I’m hopeful is because when I started this podcast over five years ago now, there was just very, very little to nothing in regards to Christianity and OCD. Now that has changed. There have been more personal stories that people have written or shared, knowledge that is coming to the forefront. But I searched, I dug down in the Google search, and I just didn’t have resources. And that’s one of the reasons that I’m here talking about this with you guys, because I became very burdened that there’s nothing that’s clinically sound and biblically sound mixed together.

I was hearing from too many Christians that they were just getting the easy kind of answers, the pat answers in the church. “You know, you just really need to pray about this more, and if you just trusted God with that. I mean, just let it go. Just trust God. You know, if you have enough faith, God will move the mountains for you.” All of these things are not particularly helpful when someone is in an immense state of suffering.

And of course, it’s helpful to pray. Of course, it’s helpful to read your Bible. But if we have somebody who’s up in debt, up to their eyeballs, we’re not just gonna throw them a Bible, say a prayer for them, and walk away. I hope you wouldn’t do that if they came to you for help and said, “Hey, I’m in debt up to my eyeballs. I’m struggling.” I hope that you would be like, “Hey, can we find you a financial counselor? Maybe somebody that can sit down with you and look at what you owe, look at your interest rates, find a pathway out of this if that’s something that you’re willing to do.” Most people who are in really bad shape like that can’t get out on their own.

And so the same thing with mental health struggles. If someone is coming to you and they have a severe medical problem like diabetes or cancer, of course we’re gonna pray for that person. Of course, we’re gonna maybe send them encouraging scriptures. We’re not just gonna leave it at that. We’re gonna say, “Hey, what is your doctor saying? What’s the plan? What does the treatment plan look like? How is your diet? How are other things going on in your life?” We wanna really care about people at a deep level and meet them where they are and help them meet their needs.

But somehow when it comes to mental health in the church, we’ve got this idea that we should be able to throw some kind of Jesus Band-Aid on a gaping wound and that that should be fine. “Well, Jesus is all you really need,” and just move forward.

Wisdom comes from God. James 1:5 says if we ask God for wisdom, that he’s gonna give it to us. And sometimes that comes from scripture. Sometimes that comes from the Holy Spirit speaking to you. But many times it also comes through other believers, through people who can speak truth into your life or knowledge that maybe they have received educationally that they can then pass on to you. God calls us as Christians to live in community.

If you talk to anyone who has been through an addiction and has become sober for any length of time, they will probably tell you that there was some type of community involvement that helped them in that process. Typically, people don’t just stay in their bedroom and get sober and shut the whole world out. Typically, they’re involved in some type of support group, or they have some type of mentorship happening or sponsorship happening, because we need other people. Sometimes it takes this huge level of humility to be able to say, “You know what? I need help.”

And when somebody is coming to us in the church with immense emotional burdens—we can see that it’s affecting them physically. Maybe they physically look super tense, fidgety. Their voice is shaking when you’re talking to them. They’re crying all the time. We need to be able to support them in getting the professional help that they need, whatever that looks like. I think unfortunately, many churches have dropped the ball on this and haven’t provided encouragement or referrals to professionals.

I wanna say a few words about taking medication. I’m not a doctor, so this is coming from a therapist, but I sincerely believe that you can have Jesus, love the Lord, take medication, and go to therapy, and that those things are not in opposition to each other. Sometimes people in the church feel like, “Oh, if I take medication somehow that’s a sign of weak faith.” It’s not.

I love what Tiffany S. says in her book Anxious with Jesus. She talks about praying while taking your medication, and just this combination of allowing God to use the resources that we have and understanding and elevating him as the ultimate healer. JP Moreland wrote a book called Finding Quiet, where he talks about taking medication for anxiety as a believer, and I believe that’s a really great explanation for anyone out there. I would love to get in touch with him. So if you happen to be buds with JP Moreland, I’ve tried to reach out to him via his website, I think, and really haven’t been able to get in touch with him. So if you are a networker, connector, I’d love to have him on the podcast. You can share this with him.

You’re not less spiritual for taking antidepressants any more than you’re less spiritual for taking chemo drugs or less spiritual for taking diabetes medicine. Let’s say it louder for the people in the back. Okay? We have to really get this sunk deep down into our psyches that it’s okay to take these medications, especially when you are in the midst of treatment and really trying to learn new skills. You’re struggling, it’s hard, or you’ve just gone through a really rough bout where your symptoms have become more severe. Don’t be afraid. Talk to your doctor. Talk to a psychiatrist. Utilize these things as resources.

I really encourage you, if you have OCD, to look into the FDA-approved medications for OCD because sometimes doctors get a little wild and just start prescribing various antidepressants. And so if they are prescribing something that’s not on that list, I would just say, “Hey, what is your thought process behind that? I’m just really curious. I did my research and I noticed that these were the medications that were FDA-approved specifically for OCD.”

Point number three is that the American Christian church has a really unhealthy relationship with thoughts and feelings in general. I know that is a very broad statement, but it’s something that I’ve seen over and over in my work, where there’s almost this subtle idea that we’re having to fight all the time with our thoughts and feelings. And how much energy does that take? That consumes a lot of energy—trying to fight with these things that are natural, that we all deal with and we all have to face at one point or another.

It’s much easier to take a more flat mindfulness approach of like, okay, it’s here. I may not like it, but I still have to figure out, okay, now that it’s here, I can either acknowledge it’s here or deny that it’s here. If I deny that it’s here, it’s still gonna be there and I’m still gonna have to deal with it at some point or another. It’s gonna keep coming back up and keep bugging me.

I think there’s this emphasis in the church to do one of two things: either to take our thoughts and feelings super seriously and put a lot of energy into them, or to deny them completely. And either is an issue. We have to find a balance point, a middle ground.

So if we’re putting too much emphasis on thoughts, it’s like bad thoughts have to be feared. We have to watch every little thing that comes into our mind. “You have to watch your thoughts because your thoughts will become your behavior.” That is not always the case. There are lots of things—trust me, I do not have OCD—but I’ll tell you, there are lots of things that come into my head that I do not act on. I’m like, “That is a really bad idea right now. Do not do that.”

This is why we have filters in our mind of past experiences, of things that we’re like, “Okay, if I do A, I know B is probably going to happen, and so I’m gonna not do A, even though I may really wanna do that right now.” I may really want to get defensive in this argument, but I know that it’s just gonna continue the argument and cause more relationship problems. I may really wanna scream right now because somebody is not listening to what I’m saying, but I’m gonna stop. I’m gonna walk away. I’m gonna take five deep breaths, come back, try this situation again.

Could you imagine if you acted on every thought that you had? How many of you have had a thought this week that said, “I don’t wanna do this,” and what if you acted on that thought? Even today, I’ve been recovering from a cold. I still am dealing with some sinus issues. I was losing my voice earlier this week and I said, “You know, I just am not sure that I wanna record this podcast episode.” Yet here I am recording because it’s important, because I wanna talk to you, because I know that if I don’t do it this week, it’s gonna get pushed off to next week and then I’ll have more to do next week. All of these things can go through my mind. They’re being filtered through my values at that point. And my values say, “Hey, even though we don’t feel like it right now, we’re still gonna show up and do the thing.”

You may feel that same way about work. There may be times where you do not wanna play with your children because you’re exhausted, but you still do it because you know it’s important and you wanna connect with them. Just think about that last time that you really thought, “I’m not sure I wanna do this,” and you did it anyway. See, you acted against a thought that you had.

When we overemphasize our thoughts, we may get really stuck on taking every thought captive, really having to activate quite a bit and do something about these thoughts. I talked with someone recently who was a former pastor who dealt with OCD, and he said, “Man, the pastor told me to take every thought captive. That just ruined me.” Now we have a whole podcast episode on that. You can go back and listen to it another time of what it means for OCD.

What happens when you overemphasize or place greater meaning onto thoughts than they really need to have in OCD is that it only makes them stronger. It only makes them come back more. If you’re trying to suppress thoughts, if you’re trying to neutralize them—like, “Hey, I’m gonna think of a positive memory because I just had a harm OCD thought. I’m gonna try to neutralize it with a positive memory”—rebuking thoughts, those types of things only make them come back more and more and make the OCD worse.

It seems to somewhat conflict with maybe some things that you’ve been taught in church. One thing I find particularly helpful is this concept from metacognitive therapy that says thoughts are like buses or like trains or subway cars—however you wanna think about it. Let’s say that thought bus comes along. You get to decide whether or not you are getting on that bus and continuing that thought direction or not. Or you can say, “You know what? I’m gonna let that bus pass by.” I’m not gonna get on there because if I get on that bus, it may lead me down this road that’s gonna take me to anxiety, intense fear, depression.

If I’m just ruminating on my past mistakes all the time, it’s gonna lead me to a sad place, and you know that. Obviously, if you have OCD, I’m not saying that this process is easy—to just detach from your thoughts. But the idea is that at some level we do have a choice of what we do with these thoughts as they come up. You may not have the choice of what bus decides to drive by. You may have lots of intrusive thoughts and you’re like, “Hey, I didn’t call for that taxi,” or, “I don’t wanna be at this bus stop where all these buses are trying to pick me up.” But you can decide whether or not you wanna continue on that bus.

Some people see any type of negative thought or temptation as sin. Having a negative thought is not automatically a sin. Having a tempting thought, such as a sexual thought, is not automatically sin. Once again, you get to decide what to do with that thought. You get to decide whether or not you’re gonna continue to go down that road of, “Oh, I had a lustful thought and I’m gonna give in to that and continue to visualize,” for example, versus, “No, I’m gonna disconnect from that and turn my eyes away. Leave that thought alone.” Temptation is not the same as sin, and that’s really important for us to wrap our minds around.

Those types of things can get easily blended in scrupulosity. So I’m blending being attracted to someone and lusting. Those are two different things. You have to be able to separate that out in order to work through it. Or I’m blending, “Hey, I just had a sexual tempting thought,” versus, “Oh no, now I feel like I’ve sinned and I have to confess and do all of these things.” Or, “I had some type of selfish thought and now I have to jump on that and automatically confess it.” Just be very careful about some of those things. Being able to recognize when you’re blending is super important.

In terms of thoughts, there’s a tendency to reinforce black-and-white thinking over certain theological issues. For example, the non-essentials can all of a sudden become essentials that people get really stuck on. Examples of this: Which denomination do I need to be a part of or follow? Scrupulosity will have you going round and round on that one. I talked to a person many years back, I believe, who said this just kind of had consumed all areas of their life because one of the denominations they were looking at was pretty strict and rigid in terms of what you could and couldn’t wear, how you dressed, how you did makeup, those types of things, what you ate. So everything in their whole life just felt really restricted. A lot of confusion over that.

I’ve had somebody reach out not too long ago asking about denominations and things of that nature. Scrupulosity can get really stuck on things that are non-essentials and see them as black or white, like there must be one that’s right. Somehow, if I follow this denomination, it must be right. That means that this one is wrong. “Oh no, my friend’s a part of that denomination. What does that mean? Does that mean that they’re not following Jesus right?”

We have to remember to keep the main things the main things. We’re about following Christ. We’re about spiritual practices that are going to get us closer to Jesus. That’s pretty simple: love God, love other people. That’s what we’ve boiled the first two greatest commandments down to, right?

I’ve had people stuck on Calvinism versus Arminianism. The problem is that you can find YouTube videos or reels on Instagram where people are gonna be speaking very strongly in one direction or another. “We’re right. We’re the Calvinists and we’re right, and here’s the scriptures to prove it.” Then the Arminians are over on the other side going, “We’re Arminians and we’re right, and here’s the scripture to prove it.” This creates a lot of confusion, obviously, for people with scrupulosity.

When we have this type of black-and-white thinking in a church, I think it’s much more balanced to be able to say, “Okay, what are the actual essential things? What are the non-essentials? About the non-essentials, some people believe this and some people believe that. One person isn’t necessarily right or wrong.” We’ve got to let go of some of the black-and-white thinking on the non-essential issues.

Let’s talk for a moment about feelings and either paying too much attention to our feelings or not enough attention to our feelings in the church. I’ve seen both sides of this. A lot of times younger people—teens, young adults—go through this. I remember going through something like this. It’s like, “I don’t feel close to God. What does that mean? If I don’t feel him right now and I’m in this worship service and everybody just seems to feel God and I don’t feel him, and I don’t feel like he loves me.” We’re just way too feeling-absorbed at that point because feelings aren’t everything.

I love my husband and sometimes I feel very close to him. But if I wake up tomorrow and I don’t feel close to him, I still love him. I’m still gonna do things to care for him. I’m still gonna ask him about his day, how he’s doing. I’m still gonna tell him I love him even though I may not have all these warm, fuzzy feelings inside. The same thing is true with God. There are some times where you may feel really close to God, but you can love God and not necessarily have all the warm fuzzies. We’re not gonna have those all of the time. Not all of life or all of spirituality is a mountaintop-type experience. You’re gonna go through some valleys in your life. You’re gonna go through some struggles and some wrestlings. All of that is very normal. All of it’s very biblical. Go read the Psalms.

There were times where David was on a high—defeating his enemies, life’s good, God’s good, everything’s awesome. Then you flip a couple Psalms later and he’s like, “God, where are you? What’s going on? Why are my enemies triumphing over me?” We have to find a more balanced view of our feelings and know that they can’t just dictate and rule our life and spirituality.

On the flip side, I’ve also heard statements in churches like, “Well, you just have to fight your feelings with faith. It’s not all about your feelings. You just gotta speak the truth and move forward, and it doesn’t really matter how you feel.” That’s completely on the opposite extreme. That’s in a different ditch on the side of the road. Two ditches on the side of the road. One, we’re completely all about our feelings and absorbed in them. The other is we’re just like, “No, gotta fight those. They’re not godly.”

God has created us in his image. God is an emotional being. Therefore, we are emotional beings. We’re not perfect, so we do not always handle our emotions in a perfect and holy way. But part of our sanctification process is learning how to manage these emotions as they come up. I really do believe that. God can use emotions in our life to connect us with other people in intimacy and close relationships, and I think that is very important.

I don’t think that we need to fight our feelings with faith because I don’t believe they’re in opposition to our faith. Even if I feel not close to God or I feel abandoned by him or I feel like he doesn’t care about what’s happening in my life, that’s a great and golden opportunity for me to then bring those feelings back to God and say, “Hey, here’s what I’m feeling. What’s going on? I don’t feel like you care about this.” God can handle all of those things. Typically, when you get all of that out, by the end you feel better and you remember, okay, I’m not in control of this. God is in control. Somehow things are gonna work out for my good and it’s gonna be okay.

I am encouraged and I hope that we can grow in this process with the church of having a healthier understanding, a more balanced relationship with our thoughts and feelings—where we don’t feel like we have to pounce on every bad thought, where we don’t feel like we have to shove down feelings that we don’t think align with God, that we can ultimately experience these things without being ruled by them. We don’t have to be ruled by our thoughts or ruled by our emotions. We can recognize that these thoughts, feelings, and body sensations are there. They’re a part of our experience. Ultimately, we’re making choices. Those things may inform our choices at times, and that’s not always a bad thing.

Sometimes you may have a feeling that you really need to pay attention to. If your body is in pain, if it’s sending you a signal that you are physically in pain, you probably need to pay attention to that. I think the same is true with emotional pain. There’s some kind of healing that God wants to do in your life. If we just ignore that emotional pain and we say, “No, I have faith. God is good. Everything’s fine,” then we miss out on that opportunity for God to do that deeper-level emotional work in our life and for us to receive that healing from him.

Join me back next week as I continue this conversation on why scrupulosity is so complicated and hard to treat. If you love Jesus and are struggling with scrupulosity, I would love for you to check out the resources on my website. We’d love to have you join our weekly newsletter. I put out one a week. You get it every Wednesday morning. Not only do we tell you about what podcast episode is coming out, but I really strive to make that valuable. I tell you some stories about things that God is teaching me in my life and how I see some of those things relating to the struggle of walking the Christian walk, and tie that into how it applies to OCD. So I’d love to have you hang out with us reading the newsletter.

Our email insiders are also the first to know about things around here because we’re on about a three- to four-week delay in podcasting world time, because it takes time, obviously, to edit and get things out there. If you’d like to be the first to know, head on over to kerryb.com to sign up for the newsletter.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

211. Embracing God’s Love 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

We’re kicking off the Scrupulosity Series by starting at the foundation, God’s love. 

In this episode, Carrie explores how shame, church hurt, and feelings of unworthiness can cloud our view of Him, and how Scripture invites us to receive the steady, unchanging love of Christ that nothing can take away.

Episode Highlights:

  • How scrupulosity distorts your view of God’s character and keeps you stuck in fear
  • Why embracing God’s love is foundational to healing from religious OCD
  • Common reasons we reject God’s love, including church hurt and shame
  • The difference between accepting God’s forgiveness and compulsively seeking reassurance
  • Practical ways to notice evidence of God’s love in everyday life
  • How speaking Scripture daily can help renew your mind and strengthen your identity in Christ

Episode Summary:

Why Does God’s Love Feel So Hard to Receive When You Have Scrupulosity?

If you struggle with scrupulosity, you probably already know the “right” answer.

God loves me.

You have heard it your whole life. You may have even said it to someone else. But deep down, it feels just slightly out of reach. Like it is true for everyone else, but not fully true for you.

As we begin this new scrupulosity series, we are starting at the foundation. Not with more rules. Not with more checking. But with something deeper. We are talking about what it really means to embrace God’s love when OCD has tangled it up with fear.

Because scrupulosity quietly shifts how we see God. And when our view of Him shifts, everything else does too.

Why does God’s love feel real for everyone else but not for me?

So many of you have asked this.

You can believe Jesus died for sinners. You can believe in grace. But when it comes to your intrusive thoughts, your doubts, or your past mistakes, something feels different.

In this episode, we gently explore why that gap exists and why it makes sense that your heart feels guarded.

Did church hurt affect how I see God?

If you have ever been rejected, criticized, or overlooked in Christian spaces, that pain does not just disappear.

Sometimes without realizing it, we begin to assume God will treat us the way people did.

But God is not like man. He is not withdrawing from you because you struggled this week. Scripture paints a very different picture of His heart, and we take time to look at that together.

Why do I still not feel forgiven?

Scrupulosity loves to replay things.

Did I confess correctly? Was I sincere enough? Do I need to go back and make sure?

There is a difference between chasing the feeling of forgiveness and accepting what God has already said is true. That distinction can bring tremendous relief, and we begin unpacking it in this conversation.

How can I actually begin to notice God’s love?

Sometimes the issue is not that God is absent. It is that your brain has been trained to scan for danger instead of grace.

I share a simple exercise in this episode that shows how powerful our focus really is and how shifting what you look for can begin to change what you see in your everyday life.

It may sound small, but it is not insignificant.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

  • 1 John 4:16
  • Romans 8:38 to 39
  • Jeremiah 31:3
  • Psalm 103:12
  • John 15:13
  • Romans 5:8
  • Psalm 139
  • Psalm 36:7
  • Psalm 18:19
  • Zephaniah 3:17
  • Ephesians 3:18 to 19

Tune into this week’s episode of Christian Faith and OCD, and let’s begin rebuilding your view of God together. And if someone you love is quietly battling scrupulosity, share this with them today.

Transcript

Hello, OCD Warriors, and welcome back to the podcast. I am excited today because we are kicking off a scrupulosity series. This series was really birthed from you guys, from surveying the audience and looking at what topics you were interested in. I know we have a lot of people who listen because they’re Christian and they’re really struggling with scrupulosity.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Kerry Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

That’s something we’ve talked about on the show in the past, and you can certainly search for that topic via our website. On the podcast breakdown page, you can type in any topic that you’re interested in, whether that’s prayer or Bible, and it’ll pop up those episodes for you. Today, I am talking about embracing God’s love.

I thought that would be an appropriate topic since we just passed Valentine’s Day. I also really believe that one of the keys to working through scrupulosity is changing your theology. And when I say changing your theology, what I’m meaning is lining it up more with an accurate biblical theology of what we actually see of God.

And if you believe that God genuinely loves you, deep down in your core, for me, that just has changed everything in my life. And so I definitely want that for every person who’s listening here. And I know from talking with people who deal with scrupulosity that God’s love often feels like it’s out of reach.

It feels like some type of concept that’s available for others, but not necessarily available for you. It’s theoretical. It’s kind of out there, but it doesn’t feel tangible. It doesn’t feel like something that’s close to your heart that you can really, deep down, know. Not just at a surface level, like, oh yeah, yeah, God loves me, but how can we really embrace it?

Before we get into embracing it, if we want to move from one place to another and feel stuck in our current situation, we first have to reflect on how in the world did I get here in the first place. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that happen in your life where you’re sitting there going, wait a minute, I’m in a pickle. How did I even get in this pickle in the first place? I need to understand this so that this doesn’t happen again.

So what are some of the reasons that we reject the love of God in our life? I would say the number one is that we’ve been hurt by people, sometimes by people who don’t claim to love God, but many times by people who do claim to love God. I know that I have been deeply rejected and wounded by other Christians. That has had a profound impact on my life.

I mean, people that I used to be close to, used to eat with, used to talk to on the phone on a regular basis, and now we don’t speak at all. That’s hard. Maybe you had a church hurt situation where people rejected you because you didn’t live up to their particular expectations. Maybe it hasn’t been an overt rejection, but maybe you’ve experienced just being outside the inner circle, maybe just a lack of acceptance from other people in church where you felt alone or isolated.

I know that has happened to me at various points in my life where I felt like I’ve tried to get close to certain people, but it’s just been met with challenges.

Another reason I think we reject the love of God is because we feel this sense of being unworthy, like we have personal defects, and how could God love me if I am dealing with this particular sin in my life or I don’t know. I’m the awkward person. Does God really love me? I’m not the person that’s going to be picked for homecoming queen, or I’m not the guy that’s going to be picked to be the quarterback of the football team.

One thing I know is that if you don’t have any sense of self-love, it’s really hard to receive, to open yourself up to receive love from others, including God. And what I mean by self-love is not this selfishness or overinflated sense of pride. I’m talking about recognizing your worth and value as being created in God’s image and being loved as His child.

That is what I refer to as self-love. I realize people may use that differently in different ways, and sometimes it has a bad connotation. But Jesus said that we should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. And so if we don’t love ourselves at all, if we don’t see any value in who we are as human beings created in God’s image, then how are we supposed to see that value in someone else who has also been created in God’s image and who is also deeply loved by Him?

My sense of self-esteem was pretty low when I was growing up. I looked around me and really felt this sense that other people were more talented than I was. This person was good at music, or that person was good at art, or this person had dance, and I didn’t really understand that my skills and abilities just may have looked different from other people’s.

I was certainly involved in extracurricular activities, but I never really felt like I found my thing, whereas I saw that in some of my other friends. They found that thing that made them come alive. Being a highly sensitive introvert going into even high school and college, that wasn’t seen as an asset.

If you have a hard time talking to people because you’re so shy, because no one has ever taught you how to make small talk or how to make conversation, I would think with my parents being in ministry that somehow I would have absorbed some of that. But for whatever reason, I didn’t. I think I needed some type of social skills training or something because I was pretty much afraid to talk to people and had to learn over time how to do it.

You combine that with the fact that I have the most serious look when I’m straight-faced ever. Then I also had to learn that I needed to smile a little bit more so that people didn’t think that I was staring them down or that somehow I was subtly angry at them.

The point is that I think at one point or another, we all feel unlovable. For some reason, we feel like there is no way that someone could love me. We reject God’s love because we just don’t get it. It doesn’t make sense to us. We can’t comprehend it from a human standpoint.

So if you’re a deep thinker and you analyze everything, which I know many of you do, it can be really hard to sit back and say, okay, God loves me unconditionally. Because we don’t have a template for that in our society. We’re all humans, so we’re all imperfect. We’re not going to love other people perfectly. Other people aren’t going to love us perfectly.

It’s really hard to understand unconditional love when we say, I just wouldn’t have patience for this person or what they’re doing, or I don’t think I could love someone who does that. Fill in the blank, whatever that is.

We reject God’s love if we haven’t embraced and accepted God’s forgiveness. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again. Forgiving yourself is not in the Bible. Accepting God’s free gift of forgiveness is believing in faith that if I have confessed my sin, as 1 John 1:9 says, that He has forgiven it.

I believe that God has removed my sin as far as the east is from the west, as Psalm 103:12 says. When that sin comes back up into your mind, however it comes back up, you say that sin was covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross. I do not need to go back there. That is what it means to accept God’s forgiveness, and sometimes it is a day-by-day, moment-by-moment situation.

You’re imperfect, and you’re going to sin again, and you’re going to ask for forgiveness again, and that is just part of the process. Until we get to heaven, we’ve got to get comfortable with that.

And the last big reason that I’m going to talk about that we don’t embrace God’s love and we reject His love is because opening ourselves up to love can feel really vulnerable. Not only are we opening ourselves up to feel love, we are opening ourselves up to being potentially rejected. Even though God is not going to reject us, we know what that feeling of rejection is like. That is burned into our nervous system, into our emotional muscle memory, so to speak.

So how do we accept God’s love that is there for us? Number one, embrace that God is not the same as man.

I never got to meet my paternal grandfather because he died before I was born, but my dad always talked about how he knew that his dad loved him. I guess his dad was not very verbal or expressive about saying the words, I love you. And my dad made a commitment and decision that he was going to verbalize those words to his kids, and he was going to say, I love you.

I don’t have a chance to ask my dad now because he’s in heaven, but I wonder how that affected his view of God and if he ever struggled with God loving him or not. I do think we take things from our parents oftentimes, and it could be parents, but it also could be other authority figures, whether it’s teachers or coaches, other people that spoke influence into your life.

Maybe it was a grandparent or an aunt or uncle who had an instrumental part in raising you. But we take how those people acted towards us and we often overlay that onto God.

Well, this person maybe was particularly harsh or strict, or maybe they were withdrawn. Maybe they were disinterested. Maybe your parent got mad at you and they just withdrew and went to their room, and you didn’t hear from them the rest of the night. Maybe it was something in the way that you saw your parents interact that you’ve laid onto God. Maybe your parent didn’t do that towards you, but your dad might have gotten mad at your mom and not talked to her for three days.

God is not like our parents, our coaches, aunts, uncles, or grandparents. God is love. That’s what the Scripture says. 1 John 4:16 says, So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

And even though you may have been rejected by a lot of people, as I have, God’s love is not removed from us. It’s not based on our behavior. Romans 8:38-39 says, For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen. We could stop the podcast right here. Nothing can separate you from the love of God.

One of my favorite verses that I have embraced, Jeremiah 31:3 says, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you. God’s love is everlasting. That means it’s not ending. It’s not going anywhere.

That’s incredible. Such a beautiful gift that He gives to us. God is not the same as man.

And two, I want you to look for God’s love in your life. If you’ve been around the podcast for a while, we talk about ICBT. That’s inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy. It’s an evidence-based treatment for OCD, and we talk a lot about sense data. And I really do believe that we have spiritual sense data as believers. After all, we have the Holy Spirit inside of us.

So how can we look for that in our life? How can we look for God’s love? I want to do a little exercise with you right now, and it may seem a little silly. I don’t want you to do this if you’re driving because part of it involves closing your eyes, okay? So don’t close your eyes if you’re listening to the podcast on the way to work. It would not be wise. But if you’re just around the house and you have the opportunity, first I want you to look for all of the red things in your environment around you.

Where I’m at, up in my home office, I see some books and they have a red spine or maybe burgundy, I guess that’s in the red family. I have some folders over here, like a binder that I see that’s red. A light that’s red, not on, that’s red in here, maybe a little bit on a pencil. And as you look at those objects in your room, hey, I’m drinking some tea, and that kind of has some reddish hue to it.

Now take a moment and close your eyes, and I want you to tell me what you saw in your environment that was blue.

Now you might be laughing a little bit like, well, that’s funny, Carrie. I don’t know what’s blue in my environment because I wasn’t really looking for that. I was looking for all the red stuff that you told me to look for.

This exercise shows us that when we’re looking for things, we’re going to find them. But if we’re not looking for things, a lot of times things will go unnoticed.

For example, I’m sure this has happened to you when you’ve bought a car, and all of a sudden you start to see that car everywhere. I feel like our car has a unique paint job. It’s not quite blue, and it’s not quite gray. I don’t even really know. I don’t remember what the color was. You know how they name these colors of paint jobs, and it was like that when we bought it. We didn’t have it painted or anything, but I thought, this is kind of a unique color. I really like it. There is something kind of peaceful about it.

All of a sudden, I started to see that color everywhere on different people’s cars. I was like, oh, well they have that same color too. Well, that’s nice. Oh, wait a minute, that’s the same model of car that I have. The same make and model. Oh, look at that car over there.

Of course, because now it was in my environment. It was right in front of my face. And so when we put something in front of our face or in our minds, sometimes we can’t help it.

We think about that friend that hurt us. We think about that church that really didn’t minister to us well and hurt our feelings. We felt like they dropped the ball. That’s happened. We bring those things up in our mind, and then we’re not looking for what are the good things that are going on around me. Where is God’s love displayed in my life right now?

And it could be something as simple as a flower blooming. There was a time where I went out to my mailbox, and it was just a hard season. I started to notice that my flowers were coming back from the winter where they go dormant. What do you call that? Perennials. You have bulbs, and they go dormant. They look like they’re dead and they’re toast after the winter. But then over time, as spring starts to come, as the ground starts to warm up, as they get that spring rain, the flowers start to come back out.

And so just even noticing that in itself is a gift.

When we have food on our table, when we have the ability to pay bills that have come up. Sometimes unexpected bills happen, and then you think, how am I going to pay for this? Or how am I going to be able to get the help that I need? And then God miraculously provides in some way. We weren’t expecting it, but finances work out or come through somehow.

It sounds really ridiculously silly, but I was going through a really hard season trying to recover from my divorce in 2015. I was talking to some friends just about the lack of physical contact in my life, the lack of touch, and I said I was thinking about just buying this gigantic pillow so I could kind of have this artificial hug.

Now I think they have these sleep pod things that are supposed to feel like a hug. Anyway, I don’t know anything about that, just seeing commercials. I probably would have bought one, though. I would have been in the market for something like that ten years ago. And they were just trying to encourage me and minister to me, and they were like, do what you need to do in this season in your life.

Feeling just really down and discouraged about not having anyone, I went to the store and there were pomegranates there. I love pomegranate. Such a side note, but it felt like, oh, this is like a silver lining in my day. It sounds really silly now, but it meant a lot to me at that moment. Like, okay, thank you, God, for this pomegranate. I’m so glad they’re back in season now because they have such a short season in the winter.

It’s like, oh, this is so great. I can go home and enjoy this part of my day after it’s been so dreary and just so sad and kind of depressed about being lonely and not having anyone. To me, that was God’s, in a very small tangible way, expression of love for me.

What happens when you read the story of the prodigal son? If you’re struggling with God’s forgiveness, what happens when you read that story and you put yourself as the prodigal son and God is running? I’m pretty sure in that culture that was kind of an embarrassing thing because just the way they would have had to pull up their clothes and all of that, it wasn’t something that would have been seen as honorable. But he ran to his son, welcomed him back into the household.

Not just that, but it’s like, hey, you’re back. I’m so glad to see you. Let’s throw a party. Not like, oh hey, I’m mad at you because you basically asked for your inheritance before I died. I mean, that’s what he did. Like, give me my share of the inheritance. His dad wasn’t even dead yet.

Some of us look at that and we’re like, yeah, I’m not letting him back in my house, much less throwing a party. But that just shows God’s longing to be in relationship with us and the deep love that He has for us.

And while I’m asking you to look for the day-to-day examples of God’s love in your life, I also want you to remember the greatest act of love that God could ever give you has already been given in His Son, Jesus. John 15:13 says, Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Unfortunately, as Christians, we hear this so much, Jesus died on the cross for you, that we’ve become desensitized to it. And I don’t want you to be desensitized to that.

I want you to take a moment of reflection and say, if I were to ask you, hey, would you give your child over for a murderer, for somebody that is abusive, for someone that has no care, no repentance, no concern for making the world a better place, your child over to that person? I would not. But God saw us in our mess of sin, and He chose to give His Son for us.

I just don’t think that we can ever really grasp that fully, that level of love. I think it’s worth contemplating and worth allowing deep down into your heart and mind and soul that this is the ultimate demonstration that God loves you. And that’s what Romans 5:8 says. But God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I think this is just a human flaw that we all have, to look at the deficits instead of looking at the good things. And we have to fight against that. As believers, we have to say, let me not find all the things that are wrong with today, but let me praise God that He is good. Let me focus on the things that I am so incredibly grateful for.

I so take it for granted that my house has electricity and I wake up in the morning and I turn a light switch on and bam, there’s a light. I don’t have to light a candle. I don’t have to get a lantern. I don’t have to figure out how I’m going to see to be able to work today.

My house is heated right now in the winter. As I’m recording this, we’re in this Middle Tennessee winter ice storm deal, and a lot of people are without power. And I don’t think I have ever been so thankful for my electricity lately because we were very fortunate and blessed not to lose power and had some plans and contingencies if we did lose power of what we were going to do. But I’m just so grateful even to have that opportunity.

Right on to number three, recognize God’s love in other believers.

Steve did something super sweet for me when we were dating, probably only a few months that we were together. I don’t know if you remember that toilet paper shortage of 2020, but it was a thing. The toilet paper companies had not caught up with the fact that they needed to produce less commercial toilet paper because people weren’t at the office and they weren’t at school and they weren’t in government buildings. So therefore, they needed to up their manufacturing of at-home personal rolls of toilet paper. So there were empty shelves when it came to toilet paper. And then of course, when there’s a shortage, people buy extra and it just perpetuates the problem.

Anyway, Steve shows up at my house one Saturday morning and he hands me a twelve-pack of Quilted Northern. I’m like, this is a good man right here. He anticipated a need in my life and he filled it, and that was just super sweet of him to do that.

Of course, there have been many, many ways that Steve loves me, large and small, over the years since we’ve been dating and married for five years now. But really a few months prior to Steve and I dating, my pastor’s wife at the time said to me, I think God wants to prove His kindness to you.

Steve was really an answer to many, many prayers of myself and other people in my life who had seen what I had gone through, the hardness of being single during my prime childbearing years. God has been so gracious to us.

But I wonder for you, who are the people in your life who have loved you at your lowest point when you didn’t deserve it, when maybe you hadn’t necessarily treated them great? You have a parent or a grandparent who is just always in your corner, always praying for you, always loving you. Sometimes God’s love shows up in a meal on a Tuesday night because you’ve had a crisis in your life and you just can’t. Sometimes God’s love shows up with someone showing up for you.

It could be a happy time in your life where they’re celebrating with you, or it could be a time where you’re sad and grieving and they don’t know what to say, but they just show up and spend time with you.

If you’re someone who has a tendency to push other people’s love away from you, I want to challenge you to allow it to come in. This is going to help you connect with others, and it’s also going to help you connect with God if you’ve been hurt. I know it may feel really vulnerable, may feel super scary. But you can do it. You can open yourself up to that love. God wants you to receive that.

There are so many one-another passages in Scripture that we can’t live out the Christian life God calls us to live on an island by ourselves. We need to be able to love other people, and we need to allow those people to love us as well.

The last point on how to embrace God’s love that is there for us is to speak the truth to yourself daily until you believe it. I want you to get up in the morning and say, God, I believe that You love me, and I want to accept that love today. I want to allow that love in.

I believe that Psalm 139 says that I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I believe Psalm 36:7, how precious is Your steadfast love, O God. I believe Psalm 18:19, He brought me out into a broad place; He rescued me because He delighted in me. I believe Zephaniah 3:17, The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness; H He will exalt over you with loud singing. How amazingly beautiful is that if you get up every day and you read some scriptures about God’s love, meditate on them, memorize them. Allow that truth to absorb into your mind and into your heart. That is a life changing. God will use that word planted in you to produce fruit, and you’ll be not only be able to love yourself in a healthy way, but you’ll be able to love others, the way that God desires you to love them.

If we don’t have the love of God in us, it’s gonna be hard for us to love other people. I wanna leave you with Paul’s prayer for the believers in Ephesians three 18 and 19. I pray that you have strength to comprehend with all the saints, what is the breath and length, and height and depth to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Lord, we ask that all who hear these words would believe and trust in your love, that you would allow them to see it in their day-to-day life, that they may be changed by it. Amen.

Check the show notes for the verses we used in this episode, and next week we’re going to be talking about why scrupulosity is so complicated and difficult to treat. So stay tuned for our next episode. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a sub. For seeking mental health treatment in your area.

210. Understanding Grace and Accepting God’s Forgiveness with author Nathan Clarkson

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie sits down with Nathan Clarkson, an actor, author, and podcast host, to talk about how scrupulosity, guilt, and contamination fears shaped his faith and how grace slowly rewrote that story.

Episode Highlights:

  • Nathan’s early experience with OCD and how it shaped his faith
  • How contamination OCD and scrupulosity often intertwine
  • Why OCD creates a distorted, harsh view of God
  • The difference between OCD guilt and true conviction
  • What it means to accept God’s forgiveness—even when it doesn’t feel true
  • How healing can grow in small, almost unnoticed steps when you walk with God and safe people
  • Nathan’s book I’m the Worst

Connect with Nathan Clarkson: www.instagram.com/nathanjclarkson/

Transcript

Welcome back, OCD Warriors. Today on the show I’m talking with Nathan Clarkson. He is a film and TV actor, besting author, indie filmmaker, and podcast philosopher on his award-winning show, The Overthinkers. Nathan is here to talk about his book that just came out towards the end of January called I’m the Worst. A powerful testimony that he shares with us regarding his lived experience with OCD. If you struggle with Scrupulosity at all, you’re really gonna enjoy this episode because we get into some juicy topics regarding grace, sin, God’s forgiveness. I know that you’re gonna be blessed by this episode.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you. With practical tools for developing greater peace, we’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Nathan, welcome to the show. We’re glad to have you here.

Nathan: Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Carrie: I understand you’re gonna tell us a little bit about your OCD story. You talk in your book about like just days spent with a lot of compulsions, showering, cleaning rituals, and like what was the process of coming to an understanding of your OCD?

Nathan: Oh yeah. Well, this has been a story since I was very young. My mom, before I even can really even remember, she has a story about me being a very, very little boy, maybe two or three. And she’s putting shoes on me, and she’s tying the little shoes and the laces are uneven, and I start crying and she can’t figure out what’s wrong, and she’s trying to comfort me. My little 2-year-old boy struggling for words, and I’m crying and then fidgeting, and she’s trying everything, and I keep on pointing to my shoes. She straightens, she evens out the little laces of my shoes. I go, oh, thank you. Thank you mom. And it was at that moment she kind of learned something different. OCD of course was had been talked about a little bit, but not quite so ubiquitously as is now. You know, we didn’t know as much and there wasn’t as many resources as there are now. Something in her mom brain said, Hey, there’s something different about my little boy. And she would notice all these little things from very, very early on, like that story in a million different ways.

I’d be lying in bed at night and she would come and kiss me goodnight and five minutes later I’d go and wake her up and say, I need you to come back. I can’t remember it. I would ask her over and over again, compulsively, I need you to come and kiss me goodnight again because I forgot if you did it. Wow. And I would ask her, you know, 15 times a night. I was really lucky to have a mom and a dad who were gracious with me and who were understanding, but they clued them to understanding something in my little brain at that time was different.

And as I grew older and older, those compulsions and rituals kind showed up in a myriad of different ways and then it was kind in my teenage years that it really, really kind of ramped up for me. And luckily there’s a few more resources at that time. And we got a counselor and talked to a psychiatrist who officially diagnosed him with OCD, and I remember that moment. It was so interesting to me kind of sitting in the therapist, the psychiatrist office, and they were telling me what OCD was and that I had it. There was of course this kind of frustration with, oh my goodness, I’m different. I have this label attached.

Carrie: How old were you at that point?

Nathan: I was, I think I was about 13, maybe 14 years old when I got formally diagnosed, and that was right around the time I was also diagnosed with ADHD and a couple of dyslexia. But the OCD was kind of the one that showed up with most life altering, particularly in those kind of early teenage years. And I remember just being so like, wow, I must be broken. There’s something wrong with me, but there’s also this kind of feeling that will go hand in hand with it, which is a weird feeling to relate. Like I can finally put a name and understand. There was both kind of a frustration that like, you know, God, why did you make me like this? And also this, oh. So that’s what it is. I’m not just crazy, I’m not just broken. There’s a thing that I can be understood and it kind of gave me a hope that, you know, I could figure out a way forward.

So that’s kind of the moments that led it up to me understanding that I had OCD, but it was very early on, kind of always knew I had it, my family was aware of it, and then we realized what it was called and what it was in that moment, like that just office.

Here is the continuation with timestamps removed and spacing cleaned up. I have not changed wording — only formatting.

Carrie: When it got really bad in your adult life later on, I’m assuming you probably were on medication or had some type of treatment along the process there if you were seeing psychiatrist, but at some point or another, you said it just consumed your whole day, like what was going on for you spiritually and emotionally, just internally as you’re going through this wrestling of not being able to stop these compulsions.

Nathan: Yeah, it really ramped up come from that moment in the psychiatrist’s office. It definitely ramped up, and that kind of began the journey of trying to figure out how to live with it. And there were good things and good times and hard times, but according to the psychiatrist, diagnosed with a particularly severe case of OCD, and one of the reasons it was severe is because, as you know, there’s kind of different kinds of OCD. There’s guilt OCD, and contamination based OCD and health OCD. And I had like layers of different where it kind of worked its way into all sorts of different ways. So I would have a health OCD that was mixed with contamination OCD that was mixed with guilt OCD. It was kind of permeating all these different areas of my life.

It was a really frustrating thing to deal with. And frustrating isn’t a big enough word to encapsulate the kind of just utter despair or frustration. I need a deeper word to explain what many of us go through who have OCD, but there were times in my life where I look back, I think the closest word I can find is just utter despair that I would experience.

And I wrote a poem many years ago and I put it on YouTube. It went viral, reached a lot of people. But in the poem I described just the frustration of not being able to touch the ones I love and ask for a hug. Not being able to live freely and enjoy life. Not being able to wake up during the day and just have fun without thinking of all the different rituals that I was gonna have to perform to enjoy my day, even in a small amount. And how it was this ever present, nonstop voice that never ended.

I remember just multiple moments in my life where I kind of came to the end of being able to ignore that frustration or just continued fighting it or kind of grin and bear it, and just got to this place where it felt so overwhelming and I felt so kind of drowned underwater from it. I experienced such deep despair, and that despair kind of left me not so much doubting God, but frustration and questions of his goodness. You love me? Why would you let me deal with this? Why would you let me have this? If I’m someone I’m supposed to believe that you care about me, why would you let me every day, every minute of the day live in this kind of agony?

There have been moments which I’ve really, really had to wrestle in my relationship with God as a result of kind of the despair and frustration and agony that OCD has brought in my life. And of course there’s a redemptive and wonderful flip side to that. I’m sure we’ll get to more of that, but I absolutely have experienced those really dark, kind of walking through the night moments multiple times on this journey of OCD.

Carrie: Yeah. What I see sometimes with Christians is like contamination gets somehow mixed in with sin too, like cleanliness and sin and godliness, and I’ve gotta keep myself uncontaminated physically, but it somehow has this spiritual relevance. Did that happen for you?

Nathan: Oh, absolutely. One of my main kind of central ones I still deal with is contamination based OCD. Kind of the dirtiness, right? You have in your mind this idea of how the world should be and kind of physically how it should be in this almost idealistic perfectionism that your clothes should be, your hands should be, or whatever it might be, how the world should be. And whatever your mind has deemed dirty, it’s almost unbearable to try to figure out how to make it clean again.

And that kind of contamination based OCD mechanism absolutely finds its way into kind of the morality aspect or the spirituality aspect of OCD where you are constantly on guard for any perceived sin or slight or failure, and you all of a sudden feel a load of guilt on your back and fear that you are upsetting or disappointing God. So absolutely that’s something that I have dealt with throughout my journey with OCD, that kind of contamination based both on the physical and the spiritual.

Carrie: Yeah, and I think it’s a good example for people of how these themes get intertwined. You spoke to that a little bit earlier. It’s not just one thing. It’s like I start to unravel something and then I end up in some other type of theme. And that can be really confusing. And I find that that happens a lot with Christian spirituality. It’s like we start with contamination or a health OCD, and then we’re over into scrupulosity now, or yeah, we started with something else and now we’re stuck in some type of… How did, like, what shifted for you? What changed? Was there like a breakthrough moment? Was it a process over time?

Nathan: I think there’s, I’m trying to find a word for it. It’s cyclical, but also moving upward. So I found myself in my story through times of deep despair, acceptance, and healing and growth. Back again to that despair. But every time I’ll find a little more healing, a little more growth and a little less despair, kind of this really baby step process over many years.

But as far as kind of the other side of that despair that I talked about earlier, there’s a few things that really, really helped me on my journey towards kind of living more freely in it. One was, I think for whatever reason, my personality is one that I always wanted to be able to be independent and never rely on anyone.

Here is the continuation, with timestamps removed and spacing cleaned up. Wording has not been changed.

Nathan: I think the more in my life that I’ve learned to rely on people. I think many of us with OCD know how embarrassing it is sometimes to explain it to people because you get those funny looks, right? You look crazy. You look really, what you talking about? So a lot of times we keep it in and we don’t tell people around us, and we might just avoid situations and people rather than having to face the embarrassment.

But I have noticed that when I kind of get over that embarrassment or that kind of fear or trepidation of telling — and not to everyone, I don’t think we need to entrust everything to everyone — but when you find someone who’s trustworthy, who’s proven, and who even has shown a desire to walk with you in your frustration or your difficulty of OCD. I have a couple friends who have verbally said, I wanna be a partner with you in this and help you in this. And those words meant so much to me.

And that allowed me to kind of open myself and be vulnerable and tell them, this is really difficult for me and this is hard for me. But when I did, having people walk with me through it and being careful with me and being gentle with me — and that’s something I’m able to offer to others as well — I think it’s been such a helpful thing to have people who actually care enough to walk with you.

And it takes a little bit of bravery of opening yourself up to trustworthy people, obviously, and kind of getting over that embarrassment and say, this is how my mind works. So that’s one thing that has been a huge conduit to healing and living better — surrounding myself with people who are walking with me in it, who both push in ways where I can grow. “Nathan, I think you can grow in this area. I think you can do this. You can be strong in this area. I know it’s overwhelming.” But also who can say, “Hey, that’s really tough. Would it be helpful if I did this or didn’t do that? Or can I wash my hands? Or is there something that I can do right now to make this moment better?”

And that’s been such a blessing for me. A reminder — and they’ve kind of been God’s hands and feet in my life — where I have people walking with me through it. And you know that’s what we offer. Everyone needs, OCD or not, is people who are willing to walk with us through our struggles.

Carrie: Through the messiness that we have going on.

Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. OCD sometimes convinces us that we’re the only kind of messy people or only ones with obsessions or funny minds. Everyone has a mess they’re walking through. And if we can get over embarrassment and go, “Hey, we’re all messy here. Let’s love each other and walk with each other.” I think that’s one of the ways that it’s been a huge, huge conduit to my health and being able to function in the world in a healthy way.

And of course it’s not perfect. There’s good days, there’s bad days, but having people around me who respect and understand — or try to understand — has been a huge conduit to that. And even my wife… when I went about finding someone who wanted to partner with me, there’s no way when she said, “Of course I’ll marry you,” she could know the full extent of what it meant to live with an OCD person. But her willingness day to day to love in that — that is such a blessing on the journey of that and has enabled me to live a healthier and fuller life.

Carrie: I think that’s really hopeful for a lot of our single people who listen, who just wonder, am I ever gonna find love, have these problems with OCD and will anybody really understand? And so it’s good to know there are people willing to partner with you, like you said, to help you. And everyone has stuff. And so just when you come together as a married couple, it’s like you have to help each other unpack some of this stuff in a different way because you’re not able to do it on your own. It’s actually really beautiful and it’s obviously a picture of the gospel and God’s love for us.

I wanna talk with you about grace, because that seems to have made a big difference in your life in terms of your relationship with God. What was that process of understanding grace for you?

Nathan: Yeah, it’s a great question. I said earlier that I’m someone who kind of wants to be independent and figure it out on my own, but I think early on my OCD was something that was terrible in so many ways. But one of the good things was it forced me to come to terms with kind of some of my messy parts and the broken places of my mind and heart and soul. It forced me to realize I wasn’t perfect and I couldn’t do it on my own at an early age.

Realizing my need for grace, my need for love, my need for God’s willingness to be with me was a really meaningful thing. That’s something that’s carried on into my adult world and life as well. The more I can accept that I need God’s grace, the more that I allow it into my life, the more I get to reap the benefits of it.

I almost feel, in a weird way, lucky that I had to learn to work out that muscle from a young age — that I needed God’s grace and I needed help — because it enables me to more intuitively accept it and look for it in my day-to-day life now as an adult.

Here is the continuation through the end, with timestamps removed and spacing cleaned up. Wording has not been changed beyond light formatting for readability.

Carrie: Yeah. What would you say to somebody that’s really struggling? They just don’t feel like God is forgiving towards them. They feel like God is waiting for them to mess up. God doesn’t necessarily have good things for me. My life is a mess with all this OCD. Like what would you say to somebody that maybe has that viewpoint of God?

Nathan: Well, the first is I have struggled with that, and you’re not alone in those thoughts and those fears. I have had all of those voices in my head. But the thing I’d tell you is, and this is what we tell about any OCD kind of thought, your mind might be telling you one thing, but we know that that’s not necessarily the truth.

And what I would tell you, even in the midst of those cloud and rainstorm of thoughts that can feel so overwhelming, is that there is a truth and that truth can be known. And the truth is found in God. He has told us through scripture that we’re loved, that we are valuable, that there’s nothing we can do to separate us from his love, that in all of our imperfections we’re accepted and invited.

We can find that truth in his words over and over again in scripture. It reminds us of what is true, and that will often come up against and contradict what our mind tells us is true. But at the end of the day, it’s so difficult and I totally understand how hard it is when those thoughts are just pounding our mind. But we need to choose. There is a choice to be made to believe what is true.

And what is true is that God cares about you, loves you. Nothing can separate you from your value or his love for you and his desire for goodness for you.

Carrie: Yeah. I think it’s hard, like what you’re saying, that sometimes things feel really true in OCD that we know scripturally are not true. And so there is that decision point to say, I’m going to feed my mind with the scriptures that I know are true about God’s love for me, true about God’s forgiveness for me. I’m gonna meditate on those things instead of focusing on what feels like this OCD version of God. That’s what I call it. It’s like OCD little g god is really loud and demanding and telling me all these things about the Lord that aren’t true, but I’m gonna choose to listen to the voice of the Spirit and the voice of God.

You talk in your book about admitting like I’m the worst, and this not as a way to beat yourself up like condemning yourself, but just as this opportunity or entrance point for grace. Tell us a little bit more about that piece.

Nathan: I think so many of us long to believe we are loved and valued, and the way we do that is we try to convince ourselves how good we are. And one of the ways we do that is point out everyone else’s badness and faults and failures, right? And that makes us feel better. We convince ourselves we’re good and we’re okay and we’re whole.

And the reality is if you’re a human, you’re broken and you have messy parts and you have fractures. We can run away from those, and that’s something I have many times in my life, and try so hard to convince myself and the world around me of this image that I wanted to hold up of Superman, that I’m good.

And it was to my detriment that I ignored the darkness and the fractured inside. The book title is meant to catch attention, I’m the Worst, but it’s something that Paul says in scripture, “I’m the worst of sinners,” and this is a man who was redeemed, who went on to be the foundation on which a faith is built.

But this man was willing to admit his dark places. And I think so many of us run from those dark places and avoid admitting and coming face to face with our broken parts because we fear that it’s gonna be a wall that we’re gonna crash into. It’s gonna break us, it’s gonna overwhelm us.

What I found is when we’re honest enough to face our darkness and to face the reality of our broken pieces, our mess, and we’re brave enough to do that, it’s not a wall, it’s a bridge. And that bridge leads us to redemption and love and grace.

And it’s a really beautiful thing that I’ve experienced in my life, and I want so badly for others to experience it in their life too. It’s a scary thing and it can be difficult. It can even be painful, like going to the doctor. But when we face our broken places, that’s where we end up finding God’s love and forgiveness. That actually starts the journey towards wholeness for us.

Carrie: Yeah. This is really great because I think you’re talking about wanting to present to the world that I am a good Christian, for example. And I think a lot of people would probably say that whether they have OCD or not. I want to be this person. I’ve shown up at church and I’m serving and I’m doing all the right things and I’m praying and reading my Bible.

But at the end of the day, we all are in need of a savior desperately every single day. We’re living in this tension of wanting to be Christlike while also recognizing that we have a day-to-day sin battle that we’re in.

When I’m radically vulnerable with God and other people, then I’m coming to this place where I can see his grace enter in. But if I just put on this persona of, “Hey, this is who I want you to see me as,” then people don’t really get to know us. We don’t have that deep and true intimacy with God either because we’re hiding in our relationship from God, even though he already knows us. There’s a rupture there.

Nathan: Yeah, I love that. I think acknowledging the difficult parts of our journey and ourselves and inviting both God and other people — who are the hands and feet of God — into that to walk with us is actually the conduit to freedom that we all ultimately long for.

Carrie: Was there a particular scripture or Bible story that you resonated with?

Nathan: I really connected with the story of Gideon as a kid… and also David, and Peter, and Paul. Over and over again, God uses people who don’t fit the image. People who don’t feel like heroes. God loves showing his strength in the midst of our weakness.

Carrie: Yeah. And when Jesus is involved, the story’s not over. We want to encourage people that feel like they’ve screwed things up — God’s not done with you yet. Forgiveness is one of the things you also talk about in your book, and it’s harder sometimes to receive forgiveness than offer it. Tell us more.

Nathan: Particularly for those of us with OCD, believing that God forgives us and accepting it can be difficult because OCD is a series of voices telling us untrue things. They’re relentless. But scripture tells us what is actually true about us — that we’re forgiven when we repent, that we’re his, and we can’t be separated from his goodness and his love.

The more we practice listening to God’s voice of truth, the easier it gets to recognize it.

Carrie: How has accepting God’s forgiveness changed you?

Nathan: It allows me to live life unencumbered by guilt and shame. It also allows me to offer forgiveness to others. There’s a freedom when we let go of our mistakes because God has. That freedom has been really meaningful in my story.

Carrie: What does recovery look like for you today?

Nathan: Recovery looks like getting a little stronger every day. Accepting a little more help every day. Not expecting everything to change instantly, but choosing by faith to walk step by step and get a little stronger every day with people around me and with God.

Carrie: I think that’s why it’s important to document progress… to look back and see how far you’ve come. Things are going to get better.

So tell us the name of your book again.

Nathan: The book is called I’m the Worst: How Freedom is Found in Admitting Your Faults. It’s available wherever books are sold. I’d love for you to grab a copy.

Carrie: Thank you for coming on and sharing your story. Remember, if you want to share your personal story about OCD, you can contact me at carriebock.com/podcast. I think it’s very important to get these stories out into the world and let people know there’s hope and opportunities for healing to have a different relationship with your OCD than you do now.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

208. Is it OCD Voice or God’s Voice? Hearing from God for Healing with Heather O’Brien

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In today’s episode, Carrie sits down with Heather O’Brien—minister, author, speaker, and host of the Heal With God podcast—to discuss how to discern God’s voice when OCD and scrupulosity create fear and confusion.

Episode Highlights:

  • How Scripture and the Holy Spirit work together to bring clarity and peace
  • Why you don’t have to be afraid of “missing” God’s will in everyday decisions
  • What it looks like to break agreement with lies and replace them with God’s truth
  • Why God’s guidance produces peace, not pressure, urgency, or shame
  • How Christian community can support healthy spiritual discernment

Episode Summary:

Many people I work with share that they once believed OCD was the voice of God, leaving them overwhelmed by fear, urgency, and constant self-doubt. I hear this especially from those struggling with scrupulosity, people who genuinely love God and want to follow Him, but feel exhausted by constantly questioning their thoughts, motives, and decisions. Over time, that pressure can quietly reshape how we see God, making Him feel demanding, distant, or impossible to please.

In Christian Faith and OCD Episode 208, I sit down with Heather O’Brian, minister, author, speaker, and host of the Heal With God podcast, to talk through how to tell the difference between God’s voice and OCD’s voice in real, everyday life. We discuss decision-making, the fear of “getting it wrong,” and why God’s guidance is not marked by panic, urgency, or threats. 

We also explore how Scripture, listening prayer, and trusted Christian community help bring clarity and grounding, and why God’s will isn’t something you’re constantly on the verge of missing.

If you’ve ever felt afraid to move forward, worried that ignoring a thought might be disobedience, or wondered why following God feels more stressful than peaceful, this episode was created with you in mind. 

Hit play and join the conversation.

Connect with Heather O’Brien:

calledtopriesthood.com

heatherobrien.net

207. Increased Confidence in Who God Created Her to be: A Personal story with Ashley Lawrence

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie sits down with Ashley Lawrence, a wife, mom, homeschooler, and artist who shares her journey with OCD, and how God met her in the middle of years of fear, doubt, and unanswered questions.

Episode Highlights:

  • How scrupulosity can mimic a “faith problem” when it is actually OCD
  • What mental compulsions can look like, including rumination, internal checking, and reassurance seeking
  • How warning passages in Scripture can become triggers for obsessive doubt and fear
  • How ICBT helps “disarm” OCD’s reasoning and make intrusive thoughts feel less convincing
  • How identifying the feared self versus your real identity in Christ can support recovery and peace

Episode Summary:

Have you ever opened your Bible hoping for peace, only to walk away feeling more anxious than comforted, then quietly wondered what that means about your faith?

I sit down with Ashley Lawrence, who shares her personal journey with scrupulosity and OCD and how she spent years believing she had a spiritual problem rather than a mental health one. Like so many Christians, Ashley loved the Lord deeply, yet felt trapped in cycles of doubt, fear, and constant mental checking that never seemed to bring relief.

In this conversation, we talk about how OCD can latch onto Scripture and deeply held beliefs, turning faith into a source of fear instead of rest. Ashley shares how learning about Inference Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT) from a Christian perspective helped her begin to understand the OCD reasoning process, separate fear from truth, and loosen the grip of obsessive doubt. We explore how ICBT does not ask you to abandon your faith, but instead helps you live more fully from the truth of who God says you are.

My prayer is that this episode reminds you that struggling with scrupulosity does not mean you are failing God. It means you are human, and God is patient, compassionate, and present with you in the middle of the struggle.

Share this episode with someone who may be silently wrestling with spiritual anxiety or intrusive thoughts.

If you are prayerfully considering next steps, I invite you to learn more about Empowered Mind and see if it may be the support you have been asking God for.

You do not have to walk this journey alone. Healing takes time, grace, and support, and God is with you every step of the way.

192. What I Wish Pastors Knew About OCD with Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

Carrie is joined by Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW, a therapist with lived experience of OCD, to discuss how pastors can better support those who struggle through insights on discipleship, treatment, shame, and spiritual warfare.

Episode Highlights:

  • Rachel’s personal journey with OCD and how her faith community played a role in her healing.
  • How pastors can discern between normal spiritual wrestling and scrupulosity.
  • The role of safe spaces, gospel-centered preaching, and grace-based discipleship in supporting those with OCD.
  • The overlap of OCD and spiritual warfare, and how to navigate it without fear or confusion.
  • Resources for pastors and helpers to grow in their understanding of OCD.
  • Rachel’s upcoming book Gap Filler: Captive to Captivated and the hope it offers to both sufferers and shepherds.

Episode Summary:

Struggling with OCD in the church can feel overwhelming and deeply misunderstood. What if pastors had the tools and insight to offer real, gospel-centered support instead of leaving people stuck in shame and confusion?

In this episode, I sit down with Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW, a therapist who not only treats OCD professionally but has also lived through it personally since childhood. Rachel shares her story of intrusive thoughts, scrupulosity, and the long road to finding help through both pastoral care and effective treatment. 

We dive into the powerful connection between OCD treatment and discipleship, the ways shame and intrusive thoughts take hold in the church, and how to discern the difference between ordinary spiritual wrestling and scrupulosity. 

We also talk about the overlap of OCD and spiritual warfare—not as something to be feared, but as a reminder that the enemy wants to distract us from Jesus and shrink our world down to our doubts. 

Rachel’s story reveals how pastors, counselors, and the gospel can work together to point people back to hope.

If you are a pastor, a mental health professional, or someone walking through OCD yourself, this conversation will encourage you to see God’s grace more clearly and help you understand how to move toward freedom.

🎧 Tune into the full episode.

Connect with Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW: 

re-vivinglivescounseling.com

www.instagram.com/revivinglivescounseling

162. Hope for Scrupulosity with Dr. Constance Salhany

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

Welcome back to Christian Faith and OCD! 

This week, Carrie continues the Themes and Treatment series with a deep dive into scrupulosity. Joining her for this powerful conversation is Dr. Constance Salhany, clinical psychologist and founder of Cognitive Therapy of Staten Island, They explore how ICBT offers a powerful, self-theme-based approach to treating scrupulosity, helping individuals break free from cycles of fear and guilt.

Episode Highlights:

  • What scrupulosity is and how it manifests in religious and moral concerns.
  • The difference between scrupulosity, religious OCD, and spiritual OCD.
  • How ICBT (Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) approaches scrupulosity.
  • The role of self-themes in OCD and how they shape obsessional doubts.
  • How understanding one’s identity as a child of God helps in overcoming scrupulosity.
  • Why trusting in a personal relationship with God is key to healing from scrupulosity.

Episode Summary:

Have you ever found yourself constantly worrying about whether you’ve sinned, confessed properly, or followed every religious practice to the letter? If so, you may be struggling with scrupulosity.

In Episode 162 of Christian Faith and OCD, I had a conversation with Dr. Connie Salhany, about what scrupulosity is, how it develops, and most importantly, how to find freedom from it.

One of the most challenging aspects of scrupulosity is how it extends beyond just religious concerns. I’ve seen this quite a bit with my clients—what starts as one type of OCD can quickly spill over into the moral/religious realm. Someone might initially struggle with obsessing over everyday decisions, wondering if they’re offending God without realizing it and then wonder if their salvation is in jeopardy. 

Scrupulosity isn’t just about religious concerns—it’s deeply tied to OCD. 

As Dr. Connie shared, many people with OCD experience obsessional doubts that spiral into scrupulosity. It can even overlap with other OCD subtypes.

For years, Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) has been the gold standard for OCD treatment. But, Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT) has been gaining attention, especially for scrupulosity.

ICBT focuses on identifying the “self-theme” behind a person’s obsessional doubts. It helps reframe these fears by distinguishing between obsessional doubts and reality.

Dr. Connie shared how true healing comes from trusting not in a set of rules, but in someone—in a loving God who knows our hearts.

“The most important thing in treating scrupulosity is helping people know, that they know, that they know—trusting not in a something, but in a Someone.” – Dr. Connie 

If you struggle with scrupulosity, remember: You are not alone. God’s grace is greater than your doubts. There is hope and help available.

For a deeper dive into this conversation, listen to the full episode. 

Have you experienced scrupulosity in your faith journey? Send me a message—I’d love to hear your story and encourage you along the way!

Related Links and Resources:

cognitivetherapysi.com

Explore Related Episode:

133. Looking for an Alternative to ERP? Find out if ICBT is Right for You

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome back to our themes and treatment series on the podcast, where today we’re talking about all things scrupulosity. I feel very honored and privileged to have Dr. Connie Salhaini on the show, joining me to talk about this important topic. Dr. Salhaini is the founder and clinical director of Cognitive Therapy of Staten Island and the founder of Catholic Mental Health Professionals.

As someone who originally trained in CBT and exposure and response prevention, I think she provides some really unique insight ICBT. Inference based cognitive behavioral therapy has shifted and changed her practice over time, specifically in working with clients who are dealing with scrupulosity.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Kiri Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD. God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding, struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Tell us a little bit about

Dr. Connie: yourself. Sure. I’m a clinical psychologist from New York, and I have a husband and children and grandchildren and a dog. And I’ve been doing this work since the stone ages. I’ll say it’s since the mid 1980s when I was a student. So it’s a long, long time. Has this been your only career that you’ve had?

Well, when I was a college student, I worked in Burger King and lots of other places, but this has been my one and only profession.

Carrie: I just know a lot of people in the counseling field have had other careers or things and shifted gears, but I’m similar. I have not been in the field as long as you have, but this has been my only career.

That’s awesome. Your kids are grown now and you have some grandkids.

Dr. Connie: Yep. Great life, yeah. So many blessings.

Carrie: How did you get involved in the process of becoming a clinical psychologist? Did you start out working with OCD, or was that something that you just started seeing a lot more of? How did you get into the OCD work?

I knew

Dr. Connie: that I wanted to treat anxiety disorders. I knew that I wanted to do the best I could, so I researched. And at that time, CBT for anxiety disorders. I just got my hands on everything that I could. I landed an internship at a non profit patient advocacy organization called Freedom From Fear. At that time, they still do a clinic.

And so I worked in the clinic and it was A super exciting time back in the mid 1980s. Now I’m talking before Prozac, folks were using exposure, but not like with ERP that we know today. So we were using it and they had a satellite at the place that I was working, which was a research through Columbia University, College of Physicians and Surgeons and the Psychiatric Institute.

It was just such a blessing to be there at the time when they’re doing all of this groundbreaking research because the people who were coming in with OCD weren’t getting better with the tricyclic antidepressants and with some of the treatments that were done at the time. And there was like a buzz of excitement.

I had this great mentor and she was wonderful. And she was, oh my goodness, head over heels in terms of all of the research and everything, and it was really contagious. And then from there, I mean, I just kept learning. I always wanted to try to learn as much as I could for my patients. And so I learned Becky and CBT and I learned some ERP and I took classes with whoever I could take classes with, follow up with whoever I could to learn anything that I could to help people.

It was really a passion.

Carrie: You were starting to see like, Oh, what we use for anxiety. We can’t necessarily use the same strategies or the same approaches for OCD. Exactly.

Dr. Connie: Yeah, it was really, really exciting time to be there.

Carrie: And then you got trained in exposure and response prevention that was considered.

the treatment for OCD as far as the psychotherapy standpoint.

Dr. Connie: And as well as a variety of other treatments that I learned for other anxiety. Well, at that time, they were anxiety disorders, now OCDs by itself. So I learned everything that I could. And now, what’s really interesting is that two and a half years ago, I became aware of ICBT, inference based CBT.

And that spark that I was telling you about, Yeah. And it was like this contagion, this fever, it took over and I wanted to, again, to learn everything I could about ERP. And then ICBT became my thing. It threw myself in and I started to see amazing things happening.

Carrie: You’re one of the people in the ICBT community that is really kind of known for treating scrupulosity.

Certainly, there’s a lot of clinicians who treat it, but that’s one of your specialty areas within ICBT. That’s what we’re really trying to explore today is what is scrupulosity? Like, how would you define that just for the lay person?

Dr. Connie: That’s really a great question. Scrupulosity, like if we look at Where it dates back to, I think it’s always been here, but we can see maybe 15th century Roman Catholic Church and this notion that folks who have worries about sin, about committing some grave sin, a need for atonement.

Yes. And it’s kind of like. We could say like seeing sin where there isn’t sin, or it actually comes from like a little pebble, a scruple. The idea is that this little sharp pebble, right, would be like sharp or hurting and think about like a sensitive conscience and the person being exposed to this pebble and the pain.

Just thinking about the term scrupulosity, you know, depends on the literature, it depends on what you’re reading. So sometimes scrupulosity looks like a subset. of OCD. Okay. We could be religious scrupulosity or moral scrupulosity for people who aren’t religious but they’re just worried about violating some kind of moral code or value that they have.

Also you’ll see religious OCD, and that’s more about Practices, it could be practices in whatever the faith tradition is, messing up those practices.

Carrie: Like I’ve got to pray a certain way, or I’ve got to pray with sincerity. I have to, like for Catholics, I have to confess constantly.

Dr. Connie: Did I do a fast correctly?

Did I observe certain feast days correctly? We can go on and on. But the idea is that this is grave. This is terrible. This is something that’s going to result in damnation and all of that. And the thing with, um, scrupulosity, we can also see spiritual scrupulosity, again, in people who don’t belong to any faith tradition, but they may have doubts about energy forces, or it almost looks existential at times.

So this overlaps. I think of scrupulosity as OCD and you can see so many ways that scrupulosity can be involved with other forms of OCD. Like for example, pedophilia OCD, someone could have that, right? Oh no, no. What if I’m attracted to children? Oh no. What if I’m going to harm children? Oh no, then God will never forgive me.

Then I’ll be damned forever. It’s interesting because you could even see it in somebody who has symmetry. OCD, just still OCD. I don’t line these things up correctly, these religious objects or whatever. And is this going to be offensive to God? Does God think I’m disrespecting? So it’s quite interesting.

Carrie: That was one of the things I wanted to ask you about. Cause I’ve seen that quite a bit in my clients where you start out with OCD and then everything, it could be even they’re feeling like they’re going to be careless and accidentally hit somebody, hit a pedestrian. What really is then they keep going with that obsessional doubt and say, Oh, well, if I hit a pedestrian, then that would be just terrible because then I would be offending God and be on my fault, all of these different things, even some things that aren’t really moral issues that are just decisions that we make in life, someone might make that a moral issue, become really, really obsessed about it and have God connections to it.

I mean, I think, do you see this a lot with like relationship OCD? Yeah. Am I marrying the person that God has for me, that type of thing.

Dr. Connie: Yes, or vocations, the same thing. No, so we could see it. It seems like there’s anything that’s important to the person. And one of the things that ICBT does so well is it identifies the self theme under it.

And that’s the person who’s afraid of becoming this person that they’re not. Like a person who could be negligent or a person who could be bad. And then we need to define what that means to that specific person. But that theme is like the big story underneath all of these different obsessional doubts.

And I’m a cognitive behavior therapist for years and years and I never saw it explained in this way. And I think that’s why I took a liking to ICBT because we can see how all of this different themes fit. Or interconnected.

Carrie: Yeah. I love that vulnerable self peace and then also looking at the real self.

Who are you really according to your beliefs and in terms of, I think that helps Christians a lot to be able to say like, okay, if I really see myself as a child of God, I mean, that makes a huge difference in how I live out my life.

Dr. Connie: Mary, you are so right about that. I think that is the most important thing about scrupulosity and the treatment of scrupulosity is when people can come to know that they know that they know, like really trust.

You know, that they’re trusting, not in a something, but in a someone, in the relationship that they have with God. And that makes all the difference. Lots of folks know it, but because of the fear, it’s intense. The suffering is awful. When they come to know that, it changes everything.

Carrie: It really does. And I find that a lot of people will seek help from a pastor or a counselor.

A mentor, someone in their church before they seek mental health help because they think this is a spiritual issue. Well, I’m somehow doubting God or what if I’ve committed this sin? What if I have not asked for forgiveness? What if this means I’m going to hell and those types of things? So it looks at mass as a spiritual issue, even though it’s not a spiritual issue.

This is a OCD affects people’s brains. And so I think it’s really important for people to understand that, that this is not a, a deficit in their spirituality. Absolutely. Yeah, the people that I meet really, they want to connect with God in a positive way. That’s really like their true desire underneath.

And all of this OCD gets in the way of them having that really Authentic, genuine connection that they want to have.

Dr. Connie: I agree completely. And I think that’s what draws me to the treatment of scrupulosity. It’s the people, they have such beautiful hearts and real great desires. Just want to please God. They just want to live a good life.

They are really beautiful and they’re so tortured by a story that has nothing at all. And in treatment, if we can restore them to that, it’s amazing. There’s nothing better. This is like a joy if we can help folks to get there. So I love this work for that reason.

Carrie: Exposure and response prevention for scrupulosity relies on a lot of imaginal scripts. Did you have some discomfort surrounding that when you would try to utilize it with clients? Can you tell us more about that?

Dr. Connie: Sure. First off, we know that ERP works great treatment. For myself, in my treatment of folks with scrupulosity, I always shied away.

From imaginal scripts with script, I would do it with other things and I would also do exposures, let’s say, a more, I guess, in depth way with other things. I have no problem sticking my hands in the garbage, touching my face, touching my hair. Modeling that no problem, no problem at all. But I remember even in training, I was like, please don’t give me a script case.

Please don’t give me a script case because I felt so uncomfortable with that. There’s a lot of reasons why I didn’t want to add to someone’s distress, but I also didn’t want to confuse the person in terms of what their faith practice was and what was an exercise in treatment. So then I relied a lot on ACT.

Group. I did a lot, a lot of act work. I’d still do response prevention, but I wouldn’t do, yeah, like those hard, those exposure exposures. Exposures like, oh gee, that a person could be possessed by the devil or wanting to sell their soul. I wasn’t doing, it wasn’t coming from me. It violated something within me.

Again, I leaned on that a lot.

Carrie: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

Dr. Connie: Correct. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. But even then, it wasn’t the best fit. I can see it now. Yeah. I’m not saying that Acceptance and Commitment Therapy doesn’t work. I’m not saying that, or that ERP doesn’t work. But for me, this is a better fit.

And I think it’s also a better fit for a lot of the people I see. Some other folks would never do those exposures. Or how about convincing clergy to allow that. Oh my goodness. That was part of what we used to do. Yeah, let’s talk to your priest. Let’s talk to your minister. Let’s explain to them what we’re going to be doing. That was a hard

Carrie: Sure, that makes a lot of sense. I think really what you’re talking about is we have to, as therapists, have to be aligned with a particular treatment because our clients are going to feel it if we’re not fully aligned or we’re not fully bought into it. And that affects, obviously, our ability to provide the services.

And I think what you said is true is like when we find something that feels like a really good therapeutic fit for our people, then the people that come to us, it kind of just fits with them as well. It’s like this nice, natural flow. How has ICBT been helpful for your clients with scrupulosity?

Dr. Connie: One of the things that I think ICBT does is it restores. The trust in themselves, in who they really are, and also it helps them grow spiritually. So when we’re removing those obsessive doubts, and some people have told me they don’t believe those obsessive doubts anymore, and I love it. I say to people, why not? And they say, well, it doesn’t make any sense. Yeah, I love that when we can do that with someone and they’re free to then practice their faith in the way that they want to, their relationship can become so much more close.

It’s difficult work and it requires the willingness of the person to do this work, but I have seen that kind of success. I think it also, ICBT doesn’t blur the lines. As much as for me, the therapeutic exercises and the spiritual practice ICBT is value free. So anyone can come with their value systems intact and there is a respect for that and so that you don’t have to go there at all with ICBT.

And I think that another thing that happens, you mentioned the real self, and this is so important, restores what people they know, but they’re doubting their true intentions, their true desires. And who they really are. It provides this other story. The doubt has this whole set of reasons behind it. We clear that up and then we look at obsessional narrative and come up together with an alternative narrative, which in my experience often is about how they are the beloved child of God.

And it just changes everything. And then after that, then we can get into situations with reality sensing and get them back into doing things in a non OCD way. It’s just so different.

Carrie: Yeah, I loved what you talked about with the true desires and intentions because that’s something that gets really doubted heavily in some of those things that we talked about before, like the pedophilia OCD and then leading into the scrupulosity OCD.

I think there are so many Christians that because they haven’t necessarily just worked on OCD in general, it’s, oh, well, I have all these horrible thoughts, whether they’re violent thoughts or thoughts about harming children or thoughts about blaspheming God. Then they’re making some type of spiritual meaning surrounding that.

Well, because I have these awful thoughts, that must mean then therefore that I’m not a good Christian or I’m not close to God or I’m not going to heaven, whatever type of meaning they’re making out of it. And so really just being able to peel back and provide some just general education about OCD, you’re not choosing to have these thoughts.

You’re not wanting to have these thoughts. This is a process that’s happening in your brain, and we can retrain your brain and retrain your ability to reason with these types of thought processes differently and really targeting that obsession that you’re having and kind of debunking the argument that it’s making.

It has led people to be kind of aligning what you were saying with their head and their heart. Well, I know that God’s loving, but I feel this fear towards God, or I feel, I notice when I have these obsessions come along that I’m really super scared, but I know that God is loving. I know that I am practicing my faith.

I know that I’m doing the right things, but it’s not aligning. And so really going through this process of teaching people the modules of ICBT is super helpful. And also, I think just really letting people know that they have options for their treatment is so huge. You as the client have the options that somebody feels like ERP is really the way that they want to go and they feel aligned with that, that they can certainly pursue that.

And if they want to do ICBT, that they can pursue that. And I think that that’s really huge for the OCD community and something that we’re trying to continue to educate people on and let them know.

Dr. Connie: Absolutely. It’s so important what you said about the reasoning process with. ICBT, it’s kind of validating for people that these thoughts don’t just intrude upon them, that there’s a reasoning process behind it.

Once they can see that, and once they can clear that up, then they can realize that those horrible feelings that they’re having, the fear, the guilt, the false guilt, as well as that, is coming from the story. Yeah, that’s where it’s from. They change the narrative and everything changes. So how does it work?

Go back to the obsessional doubt and we’re upstream as we say. Right.

Carrie: Well, for sharing all of this information. Our listeners will find it really helpful and we’ll put links for them to find you in case they’re in New York or want to pursue seeing you.

Dr. Connie: Oh, that’s wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much.

And thank you for the work that you do. It’s so important to have somebody like you doing these podcasts, especially faith based work.

Carrie: I just want to share with all of you what God has been working with me on in my life. As I Have been studying the scriptures and coming across very specific scriptures that maybe I have shared with certain clients dealing with scrupulosity or scriptures that I felt, Hey, wow, this could really unlock something for someone with OCD.

I’m starting to take notes on those things, write down questions, and I’m not sure what this is going to turn into, if this is going to come out in podcast form or it’s going to come out in written form, but. I know that when I have it all collected and gathered together, I will be sharing it with you. I definitely have a passion for helping Christians with OCD to have a really healthy understanding of theology because oftentimes wires have gotten crossed along the way from Things that we’ve been told or things that we learned from imperfect parents, church situations that maybe weren’t the best or the healthiest, and sometimes those things can get us really stuck and keep us from being able to move forward in a healthy way in our relationship with God and God.

I don’t want anybody to be held back by any of those things. Until next time on the podcast, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. To receive weekly encouragement, find out about our monthly Meet the Podcast host Zoom meetings and receive information on exclusive sales, become an email insider today.

All you have to do is go to karybach. com and scroll towards the bottom of the page. You’ll find a spot to put in your email and receive a free download in your inbox from us. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Were you blessed by today’s episode? If so, I’d really appreciate it if you would go over to your iTunes account or Apple Podcasts app on your computer if you’re an Android person.

in and leave us a review. This really helps other Christians who are struggling with OCD be able to find our show. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

118. How Do I know if this Thought is an OCD Obsession? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

Join Carrie as she helps you distinguish personal thoughts from OCD obsessions. She breaks down common OCD themes and the urgency they create and offers practical tips for navigating the complexities of OCD.

Episode Highlights:

  • How to recognize common themes of OCD thoughts.
  • The urgency often associated with OCD obsessions and the behaviors they provoke.
  • The tendency of OCD to make insignificant issues feel overwhelmingly important.
  • The importance of mindfulness in discerning the true significance of intrusive thoughts.
  • Strategies for embracing uncertainty and resisting the urge to seek reassurance.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 118 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD. I’m your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor here in Tennessee. Today, we’re diving into a question many of you have asked: “How do I know if this is an OCD obsession?”

Let’s break it down into four key points to help you identify whether what you’re experiencing is an OCD obsession.

1. Align with Your Typical OCD Themes: Think about whether your current obsession matches the usual themes of your OCD. For example, if you struggle with scrupulosity, your obsessions might revolve around fears of offending God or committing sins. If your thoughts fit these recurring themes, it’s likely an OCD obsession.

2. Sense of Urgency: OCD often creates a sense of urgency, making you feel like you need to resolve or answer something immediately. This urgency can manifest as excessive rumination or seeking reassurance, like re-reading scripture or asking for advice repeatedly. If it feels urgent, it could be OCD at play.

3. Perceived Importance: OCD tends to magnify the importance of certain thoughts, making them seem like the most crucial issue at the moment. For instance, you might obsess over a past interaction or perceived mistake, even when it’s not relevant to your current life. Practice mindfulness to gauge whether these obsessions are overshadowing more immediate concerns.

4. Embrace Uncertainty: If you’re still unsure whether a thought is an OCD obsession, embracing uncertainty can be key. OCD loves to create a false sense of certainty, pushing you to seek answers immediately. By learning to sit with uncertainty, you can reduce the power of these obsessions. Remember, it’s okay not to have all the answers right now.

I hope these insights help you navigate your journey with OCD. If you need more support, head to carriebock.com/services/

Explore related episode:

87. OCD FAQ with Carrie and Dr. Kelley Kleppinger

Transcript

Hi, welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 118. I’m your host, Carrie Bock, and I’m a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I wanted to talk with you today about “How Do I Know If this is an OCD Obsession?” This is something that comes up for a lot of people, right? Is it God? Is it the devil? Is it OCD?

Is it an OCD obsession or is it really just me? I want to break it down for you a little bit, maybe give you four ways that you can know whether or not this is an OCD obsession. Number one, does it fall in line with your typical OCD themes? You know your themes that OCD typically runs through. For someone with scrupulosity, for example, “Have I offended God in this way?” “Did I actually sin?”

A lot of times, OCD starts with, “What if?” What if I hurt that person’s feelings? What if I ran over someone with my car? What if this is not arranged properly, then something bad might happen, that superstitious type of thinking that can come along with OCD? Is the obsession or the thought process that you’re having, is it in line with what your themes typically are?That’s number one. 

Number two, does this feel urgent? OCD will tell you, you have to do something about this right now and it may not be an external action. So it may not be like a typical checking the doorknob or checking to make sure that the stove is off one more time. It may be a rumination of. I have to figure this out right now, and I have to have an answer right now.

It feels very urgent, so that may lead you to say, “Okay, if I need to know right now, that means I’m going to go Google about it. I’m going to go call my best friend and ask her the same question that I’ve already asked her and I’ve already received an answer to.” That’s reassurance seeking. “I have to sit here and think about it, or I have to find three scripture verses that tell me yes or no. I have to look at what this pastor that I listen to, let me try to see if he’s done a sermon about this situation.” If it feels like, yes, I’ve got to engage, I’ve got to do something, I’ve got to figure it out and it’s so urgent. It’s like, I’ve got to do it right now. That’s a good indicator that you are dealing with an OCD obsession.

Number three, does it feel like it is the most important thing, even if it is not? OCD has a tendency to just cloud and zoom in and tell you this is the thing that you need to be focused on. Right now, you need to be focused on, did you hurt that person’s feelings three years ago when you told them the truth about their boyfriend, that he wasn’t the right person for them.

OCD may have you stuck on that for a long time. And if you’re able to zoom out a little bit and look at kind of your life in total, Is the most important thing to be focusing on right now, or is it just that’s what OCD is telling me? It’s the most important thing to focus on right now. Because what happened between you and your friend three years ago when you made a comment about her boyfriend wasn’t the person she should be with.

I imagine that you have many other things going on in your life right now, whether that’s work, school, family responsibilities, current friendships, maybe you’re still in a relationship with that friend and things are fine right now. What’s actually happening in the present. This is why I teach people mindfulness skills.

This is why I stress those and have a course on mindfulness because learning to be able to be in the present helps us know what’s the most important thing right now. And a lot of times it’s not what OCD is telling you. Sometimes, we can be running from the stress of the present moment into an obsession and you don’t even realize that you’re doing it.

It’s much easier for me to like, it’s a familiar pathway in my brain, maybe easier is not the right word, but it’s a familiar pathway in my brain ruminate about this scripture verse and trying to figure it out. Versus sitting with the uncertainty maybe of my present situation of a family member who’s sick or of not being certain if I’m doing a good job on this work project.

Thinking about what is OCD possibly trying to distract you from that’s uncomfortable in the present. And as you’re able to sit more with some of those present uncertainties, that’s going to help you be able to manage the OCD and to recognize. That it’s not the most important thing right now.

Acceptance and commitment therapy or act teaches you to move towards your values, to move towards what’s important to you. And so if you’re sitting in your room obsessing about something or seeking a lot of reassurance, a lot of times that’s taking time away. From what’s most important to you at that moment.

Even though OCD is telling you, Hey, you’ve got to figure this out right now, you’ve got to sit and ruminate on it. Thinking about what are my values? What’s actually most important to me? How can I move towards that value system instead of being stuck in this OCD loop over and over again, where I like to tell people that OCD is trying to get you to scratch an itch that you can’t scratch.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had an itch on your back that you couldn’t reach. It’s a little bit like that. It’s like, well, maybe I can, maybe if I just move this way, or, oh, maybe if I just put my arm that way, maybe I’ll be able to get to it. That’s what OCD obsessions are like. It wants you to believe that you can scratch that itch, but really you can’t.

Really, you have to learn to be able to sit With the discomfort to sit with the uncertainty. And as long as you keep chasing, being able to scratch that itch, the more and more uncomfortable you’re going to be. And it’s just going to continue back that loop of obsession and compulsion. We’ve covered three different points so far on the four points of how do I know if this is an OCD obsession or not.

Let’s say point number four is that you’re still unsure. You’re still not sure if this is an OCD obsession or not. And I would say, encourage you to embrace that uncertainty in any way that you can. I know that may seem big or impossible for some of you who are listening to this. With anxiety or OCD, but embracing uncertainty is what allows you to be able to say, Hey, I can move forward towards my values.

I can keep living and functioning in my day-to-day life. I don’t have to figure this out right now. There are some things that take us a long time to figure out. Is this the person that I’m supposed to marry? Probably shouldn’t make that decision in a day or in an hour. We don’t necessarily need to know that absolutely right now, but that is what OCD is telling you, to say, let me sit with this uncertainty.

Let me gather more data over time, not gather more data by Googling a bunch of stuff. But let me take my time on deciding, is this the person that I should marry? If it’s a spiritual obsession, a lot of times people can get stuck on sins and making sure, “Okay, I have to eradicate every sin from my life, sins in the present, sins in the past.” Can I sit with the fact that maybe there are some things that I’ve done in the past? Maybe sometimes I can reconcile those things. But there are some things that we just can’t that it might be damaging to go back and rehash something with somebody that they’ve already healed from, but you might still be stuck in shame about that’s something that you might have to sit with.

Embracing that uncertainty and that discomfort in the present is going to help. Slow you down, slow all the racing obsessions down because the less that you give into them, the less that they’re going to reoccur. Everyone has uncertainty in their life. Everyone has things that they don’t know, and it’s okay to not know, and it’s okay to have a mindful moment and acknowledge there are some things that I’m questioning right now.

There are some things that I am uncertain about. I can sit with those things. I can recognize that discomfort, but I don’t have to become a slave to it. I can continue living my life. I hope that these tips have been helpful for you and you can reach out to me anytime at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I encourage you to click on the courses tab and check out the options there.

I have a great course on mindfulness that can really help you learn to sit with some of that uncertainty, learn to sit with those uncomfortable feelings and recognizing you don’t have to act on them. 

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.