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220. Getting Unstuck from Spiritual Mental Rituals

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, I talk about how spiritual mental rituals are actually mental compulsions in OCD, and five steps to help you recognize these patterns and begin stepping out of them.

Episode Highlights:

  • The connection between spiritual mental rituals and compulsions in OCD
  • Ways to become more aware of when these patterns are happening in your mind
  • Practical strategies to create distance from intrusive thoughts through mindfulness and thought diffusion
  • The underlying fears and “feared possible self” that drive spiritual mental rituals
  • Why OCD’s reasoning process keeps you stuck and what helps you step out of it 

Episode Summary:

Why do I feel stuck even though I’m praying more and trying harder?

I hear from so many of you who are doing everything you know to do spiritually. You are praying, rebuking thoughts, quoting Scripture, and trying to replace negative thoughts, yet you still feel stuck. That can be incredibly discouraging because your heart is in the right place. At the same time, some of these responses, like repetitive praying or trying to cancel out a thought, may actually be mental rituals that keep OCD going instead of bringing peace.

Why are mental rituals in OCD so hard to recognize?

These patterns often become automatic, which makes them easy to miss. You may be responding to intrusive thoughts all day without realizing how much energy it takes. Many people describe it as a quiet background murmur in their mind. As this loop repeats, it strengthens, which is why awareness is such an important first step.

How should Christians respond to intrusive thoughts?

Many Christians feel they need to respond to every thought right away. When an intrusive thought shows up, it can feel urgent and important. However, that urgency is often part of how OCD keeps you engaged in the cycle. There is a different way to relate to your thoughts that allows you to stay grounded in your faith without being pulled into anxiety.

Why does OCD make me feel like something is wrong with me spiritually?

OCD often targets your relationship with God, making you feel like you are not doing enough or that something is off. These thoughts can feel real, but they are often rooted in a feared possible self rather than your true identity in Christ.

What is actually keeping the OCD cycle going?

There is a deeper reasoning process that pulls you away from the present and into a stream of anxious possibilities. Without recognizing this, it is easy to stay stuck even when you are trying your best to do the right thing.

If you have been feeling worn down by intrusive thoughts and mental rituals, this is not an episode you want to miss.

Listen now to begin finding peace and share this with someone who needs encouragement today.

Transcript

 Repetitive praying, rebuking thoughts, quoting scripture or a short phrase, or intentionally thinking a positive thought to neutralize a negative thought. What do all of these things have in common? They are all mental rituals in OCD. Today on the Scrupulosity series, we’re gonna be talking about five steps to get unstuck from spiritual mental rituals.

Welcome OCD Warriors to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian sharing hopeful stories. And replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace. I’m Carrie Bock, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

I pray you are blessed by today’s episode. Number one is be aware of when you are doing it. If you’re gonna change any type of behavior, you have to become aware of how and when it is happening. You wanna know what the triggers are to this mental compulsive ritual. You probably already know that, but sometimes when you’ve been doing something for so long, you don’t even realize that you’re doing it.

It’s just almost happening kind of in the back corner of your head. I’ve met a lot of people with OCD who tell me there’s kind of like this murmur almost in the background going on in their mind. You may be responding at times and you’re not even fully aware of how much time you’re taking to respond to these types of things.

Ultimately, neurons that fire together, wire together, so the more time you engage in this obsession compulsion loop. The stronger it gets and the faster that goes. One thing you can do here is to practice mindfulness. If you’re not familiar with mindfulness, mindfulness is a component of acceptance and commitment therapy.

And what it involves is focusing intentionally on the present moment with a sense of awareness, acceptance, curiosity over judgment. And by doing so, you’re helping yourself be able to slow down, be aware, and take stock of what’s actually going on right now. Many people in today’s culture are moving at a hundred miles per hour.

Our brains are taking in all kinds of information and we’re just moving through life, not really as present as we could be, and mindfulness helps us get back to this sense of being present. I believe this is a very important component for us spiritually as Christians. Because we need to be able to sit in God’s presence and hear what he has to say to us.

And if we don’t slow down enough to even do that and learn to quiet our minds, learn to just let all of the dust settle, then it’s gonna be really hard for us to be able to connect even in our devotional moments that we have with him. Number two, we wanna create a distance, create some separation between you and your thoughts.

You need to understand that you are not the sum of your thoughts. You don’t act on all of your thoughts. We have thoughts all the time that we don’t pay any attention to, and we’re like, oh, that was kind of weird. Or. Oh no, I really shouldn’t do that. Or, Ooh, I wanna say that, but that would really be a bad idea.

Right now the filter comes in, right? We don’t need to super align ourselves with our thoughts and say, oh, well, because I had this thought, then that means something about me. Or create some type of additional meaning that doesn’t need to be there to create this distance. You can do a couple different things.

One, you can look at it from more of a metacognitive approach of, I am having an obsession right now. Or I always say, even if you can’t stop the compulsion, you could say in a mindful sense, I am engaging in a compulsion right now. This lets you and your brain know. Hey, I know what’s going on right now.

Even if I’m not in a place to combat it or stop it, I know that I am on this cycle of obsession and compulsion. That awareness piece, as we talked about is important. Another exercise you can utilize to create some distance between you and your thoughts is called thought diffusion. This is something I learned from dialectical behavioral therapy.

We borrow from a variety of different things on the podcast because I think different therapeutic approaches have little snippets and pieces that can be helpful for OCD, and these are actually considered adjunct therapies. If you go onto io CDFs website, that’s how they would define like acceptance and commitment or.

Dialectical behavioral therapy. I believe they’re under the adjunct approaches, not entirely sure could be under secondary. In order to practice thought diffusion, you’re gonna do something like, imagine your thought is on a leaf, going down a stream, or imagine your thought is on a cloud in the sky.

Imagine your thought is on a car and you’re watching the cars pass by on the highway. And what this does is it allows you to really examine your thought and recognize that you don’t have to immediately get roped into it. Ruminate on it, figure it out, can be really great strategy for rumination to practice this.

It does take practice. It takes time to learn. So you can’t just do it once and think that you’re good to go, but when you do this and you kind of imagine these thoughts moving by, it lets you know, okay, I’m creating some separation between myself and the thought. I’m also noticing I don’t have to act on the thought right now, so that can keep you from compulsing.

I don’t have to immediately do anything about this right now, even though OCD is screaming, you really need to do something about this, and you need to do it right now because OCD is super urgent like that. But when you practice these exercises, you go, okay, I’m having this thought. I don’t have to continue to hold onto it.

I can train my brain. To be able to let the thought come and let the thought go out. Like I said, that takes some intentional practice. It’s not an easy one and done type of scenario. Number three, understand what is contributing to this fear. We know that with OCD, it convinces you that some things are true about yourself that are not true about yourself.

An inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy call this the feared possible self. It’s like if I don’t engage in these compulsions, if I don’t entertain these obsessions in these specific ways, could mean a variety of things. Could mean I’m negligent, could mean I don’t care about my spiritual life, this sense of carelessness.

It could mean that I’m going to be some kind of spiritually unclean, dirty if I don’t immediately rebuke this thought. So figuring out what that is, what the feared consequence is, what the feared possible self is, can be really helpful and beneficial because the feared possible self is a lie. People that are worried about being spiritually negligent are engaged in their spiritual life.

They’re engaged in spiritual practice. Even sometimes when it’s hard or even if you’re maybe avoiding certain spiritual practices, you still care about it. It’s still a value. It’s still on your mind as something you desire to engage in. So understanding that feared possible self is a false sense of self.

It’s not actually who you are. And then looking at what is the story that you’ve told yourself regarding what you have to do with these thoughts? Oftentimes, Christians are told by spiritual leaders, Hey, you’ve gotta take that thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. So anything that comes in their mind, they feel like they’ve gotta immediately pounce on it.

And deal with it. Like, oh, if it’s any kind of negative thought, of course we know that this is not helpful for OCD and actually just reinforces the whole obsessive compulsive cycle. So we’re trying to get out of that by recognizing that taking these thoughts captive means I need to let them alone so that they don’t continue to grow, multiply.

And become an even bigger issue than they are right now. If you believe the thoughts are some type of spiritual attack, it may be really hard for you to let them alone and not feel like you have to rebuke them. Really examining maybe some of the teachings that you’ve heard from spiritual leaders or the council that has been given to you can be really helpful in these types of scenarios.

What have you been told about your thought process and how to handle specifically intrusive thoughts? Maybe the people that you were going to, they may not have known this was OCD, or you may not have known it was OCD, so they weren’t able to provide you a really balanced, helpful Christian clinical standpoint of that.

Hello, that’s why we’re here. Welcome to the podcast. That’s what we’re hoping to do, provide that really great balance for you. Number four, and I think this is crucial if you’re following an ICBT path, is really understanding the inferential confusion, the obsessional reasoning process. If you read resolving OCD one and two, actually it’s covered in volume two.

It’s the OCD trifecta. Essentially where if you understand how you reasoned your way into OCD in this obsessional reasoning process and that you have an everyday reasoning process, it really helps you know how you can get out of that obsessional reasoning process and back into the everyday reasoning process.

In the obsessional reasoning process, I’m going to try to simplify it for you. It’s a little bit complicated and I love that there’s a bit of a depth to it because the more that you learn about it and read about it, the more that you can grow an understanding of it and start to see it in real time is essentially where you’re distrusting whatever the sense data is of the moment.

When we say sense data, we mean things like common sense. Your five senses, your sense of self, who you are. So let’s say I’m distrusting who I actually am. Then what happens? Well, step two of the process is this unchecked and boundless imagination. So I’ve closed the door to what’s actually happening right now.

And in doing so, it’s opened up this alternate door where the imagination runs wild, dumps a bunch of what ifs on there. Scary stuff that I feel like I’ve got to address creates this internal crisis. And then once you believe something or you believe like, okay, this is possible, this really could happen to me.

Then you start to justify it with facts and reasoning and logical arguments. Well, yeah, this could happen. And the reason I know that is because I read a news article on it, or I know somebody that that happened to, or I read this scripture and it seems to support this belief that I believe about God being harsh and not really caring about me, or I’m gonna use this scripture from the Old Testament to support the fact that I believe that God is.

Harsh and judging me right now, even though I’m saved. And even though when God looks at me, he sees the blood of Jesus, I’m gonna take something out of context and utilize it in that way. And you see this all the time in terms of people making arguments for a variety of different things in the world.

And you can find some people that. Very convinced of some things that aren’t true, right? Or they’ve only seen one side of the story. Maybe it’s a complex issue and there are two sides, but they’re really only concerned with their side because that’s all the facts that they’ve gathered. That’s all the evidence that they’ve gathered, all of the arguments, and so they really only know like their side of the story.

And I think OCD. Is very similar in this way, is very selective about what it actually pays attention to. The reason we know this is because if you meet someone with, let’s say, contamination OCD, somebody may be really, really concerned about getting the flu, but they may be, let’s say, less concerned about or not concerned at all about getting the Norovirus.

Someone else with OCD, they are super concerned about any kind of stomach bug out there. They are not concerned necessarily about the flu as long. It doesn’t make them throw up. They’re like, whatever. I’m not really concerned about catching those specific germs. Sometimes people can be super focused on touching objects surfaces and believing that they’re going to be contaminated that way, but they’re not bothered about what’s in the air.

And people would look at that and say, that doesn’t make any sense. ’cause certainly many of our illnesses are airborne. However, that’s just how OCD works. Because if you understand the reasoning process is starting in the imagination and then we use the facts and the logic to back it up, then it makes sense that way.

But if you don’t understand that obsessional reasoning process. Then you just say, yeah, I know this is really weird, but this is what I think and and how I feel. Instead of going, yeah, this is how I got to this point. OC also has this way of starting with a particular belief and then neglecting all of the other things that may be true.

One thing that we learn in ICBT is this concept of affirming the consequence. What this looks like is making a statement like, well, God heals people that he loves, which is true. And then the next part of the equation would be. God hasn’t healed me, therefore he doesn’t love me. It’s like this way of reasoning backwards instead of looking at the situation saying, okay, there are many different reasons why God hasn’t healed you, but you’re focused solely on.

He hasn’t healed me because he doesn’t love me, instead of there may be other things that he’s trying to cultivate in my life and is gonna use this suffering in order to do that. Another example might be serial killers have poor relationships with their mothers. I don’t know if that broad generality is true, but let’s just pretend it’s true and then to say, I don’t have a good relationship with my mother, therefore, I may turn into a serial killer.

OCD can be very sneaky like that and make all kinds of arguments. Number five, if you’re gonna get unstuck from spiritual, mental rituals, may really need to bring in some reinforcements, get some help, whether that’s finding an ICBT therapist online. There’s a great. Resource list where you can do that, or I also have a course called Empowered Mind, Christian ICBT for OCD, and especially for individuals dealing with scrupulosity who have mental rituals or ruminations.

I’ve had many individuals go through this course who have found incredible hope and help for dealing with the mental rituals, the compulsions. They’ve been able to learn the ICBT process through a Christian lens, which helped them feel safe and comfortable having the faith integration piece. And if that’s something you might be interested in, you can just go check it out at kerry b.com/training.

We would love to see you take advantage of that self-help course. It is way cheaper than 12 sessions of therapy. Historically, in the past, there have been 12 modules of ICBT. The way that they’re being taught now is differently than when they were originally proposed in a treatment manual. So I have them broken down and all the concepts in there without specifically them being based on particular modules.

I’ve tried to make them easy to understand, breaking down some of these hard concepts and giving you a lot of different examples. We also are in the process of creating a custom workbook to go along with that course for the students that are in the live training right now. So I’m very excited to release that workbook as part of the course coming at the end of May.

So we are just around the corner with that. If you buy it now, you will have six months access to it. So when everything gets dropped in there in May, you’ll be able to see the most revised version of the material. Thank you so much for listening today, and as always, you can reach out @carriebock.com anytime.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

219. The Holy Spirit and Blasphemy Concerns with Pastor Jeremy Pickwell

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie sits down with Pastor Jeremy Pickwell, founding pastor of Alinea Church, to talk about the Holy Spirit, the fear of blasphemy, and how to find peace when your thoughts make you question your relationship with God.

Episode Highlights:

• What the Holy Spirit really is and why He is personal, not just a feeling

• How the Holy Spirit helps guide, comfort, and strengthen you in daily life

• What the Bible actually means by blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

• Why intrusive thoughts are not the same as rejecting God

• How to stop overthinking and trust God with uncertainty

• How to find peace when you feel afraid you’ve “messed things up” spiritually

Episode Summary:

What Is the Holy Spirit and Have I Committed the Unforgivable Sin?

As I was planning our scrupulosity series, I realized we had never really slowed down to talk about the Holy Spirit in a clear, practical way. We also had not addressed one of the most fear-filled questions I hear from Christians with OCD: Have I committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

So in this episode, I sat down with Pastor Jeremy Pickwell, founding pastor of Alinea Church, to have a conversation around both of these topics.

What is the Holy Spirit and why does it feel so confusing?

Depending on your background, you may have received very different messages about the Holy Spirit, and for many people, that leaves them unsure of how to relate to Him in everyday life. Sometimes it can feel overly complicated, or even like something easier to avoid altogether, but what if understanding the Holy Spirit is actually more simple and personal than you’ve experienced before?

Why do I feel so much pressure to get my faith exactly right?

If you struggle with OCD or anxiety, your relationship with God can start to feel like something you have to manage perfectly. You may notice yourself overthinking decisions, questioning your motives, or worrying that one wrong thought could change everything, and that kind of pressure can feel exhausting over time.

But what if your relationship with God was never meant to feel that fragile?

What if I’ve committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

This is one of the most common fears I hear, and it often starts with a single thought that feels alarming or out of character. From there, it can spiral into deeper questions about your salvation, your heart, and whether you’ve done something that cannot be undone.

In this episode, we explore what this passage actually means and why it may not apply in the way you think it does.

Do my thoughts reflect my relationship with God?

Intrusive thoughts can feel incredibly convincing, especially when they go against what you truly believe. They can make you question your identity, your intentions, and your faith, but it’s important to step back and ask whether every thought deserves that level of meaning.

There is a difference between what your mind produces and what your heart truly desires.

How can I find peace when I don’t feel certain?

Many of us long for clarity and certainty, especially when it comes to our faith, but part of the Christian walk involves learning how to trust God even when things feel unclear. That tension can feel uncomfortable, but it can also be a place where deeper trust begins to grow.

If you’ve been carrying fear, pressure, or confusion in your spiritual life, I want you to know that you don’t have to navigate that alone. God is not distant from your struggle, and He is not waiting for you to get everything right before drawing near to you.

We go deeper into all of these questions in this conversation, and my prayer is that it brings you clarity, peace, and a greater sense of God’s presence with you.

Transcript

As I was planning out episodes for our Scrupulosity series, I realized that we’ve never really done a deep dive into the Holy Spirit, and we’ve never addressed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit concerns. I chose to interview our pastor because I really feel like he has been able to communicate very clearly some of these spiritual truths about the Holy Spirit from scripture, and I know that I have been learning and growing in my own journey in this area of my spiritual life and wanted to share a little bit of that with you all.

Welcome, OCD Warriors, to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace. I’m Carrie Bach, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

I pray you are blessed by today’s episode.

Pastor Jeremy Pickwell is the founding pastor of Alinea Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, which began in 2021. He is passionate about helping people grow in their faith, discover their purpose, and take meaningful steps in their relationship with God. Jeremy is married to his lovely wife, Jennifer, for 22 years, and they have two sons, Wyatt and Weston. They’re a very adventurous, outdoorsy family who likes visiting national parks and have visited 36 across the US. I appreciate Pastor Jeremy’s transparency and authenticity in the stories that he shares in this episode. Okay, Pastor Jeremy, so how would you explain the Holy Spirit to a new believer?

Pastor Jeremy: It’s a great question. The Holy Spirit ultimately is God. He’s not a force. He’s not an influence. He’s not a vibe. He’s the third person of the Trinity, so fully God with personhood, which I think is important because he speaks to us. He grieves. He intercedes. He leads. I remember someone once said that the manger is God with us, and the cross is God for us, and Pentecost is God in us. It’s the Holy Spirit who comes and indwells us. One of the most fascinating scriptures in the Bible is when Jesus said it was better for him to leave so that the Spirit would come, which I think is kind of staggering.

Carrie: Yeah, that must have been kind of shocking to the disciples. What do you mean it’s good that you’re going away? We need you here.

Pastor Jeremy: Yeah, I know better. This is not good. We need you here. So I think that’s a fascinating thing. So the Holy Spirit is God in us now and leads and guides the believer, and unfortunately we tend to treat the Holy Spirit as kind of like the weird uncle in the attic that we don’t wanna talk about. We either ostracize him as some kind of theological abstraction or we lean so hard into charismatic experiences, and I don’t think either one of them really does him justice. So he’s the third person of the Trinity. He’s a person to know, not a concept to figure out. He’s there to help us.

Carrie: Yeah. This is really great. I shared in our last episode, and you wouldn’t know about this information, but I’m gonna repeat it for anybody that missed it. I’ve been on this journey where I grew up in a very knowledge-based faith and then swung over into some more charismatic, Holy Spirit-led expressions. I’ve been struggling, I think, for a while to find the balance and find the middle ground and have felt very much like, okay, this camp over here is too far to one side and this other camp is too far to the other side. And I think my husband has had his own wrestlings with that because we grew up very, very differently. When we got together, he was on the knowledge-based side and I was on the charismatic side. Anyway, it’s been an interesting journey, but I just say all that to say that it’s okay for people to examine what they have been taught in the church and to continue to seek God through the Word and the Holy Spirit and prayer to reveal things to you. Maybe you were taught some things that are not in alignment with the Word of God.

Pastor Jeremy: Absolutely.

Carrie: How do you see the role of the Holy Spirit as being different in the Trinity versus God and Jesus?

Pastor Jeremy: Yeah, man, this is like back to my many years ago, my master’s program, my MAR. Scripture reveals that they have distinct roles of Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Spirit’s work in the believer’s life: it says that he convicts of sin.

Carrie: Right.

Pastor Jeremy: He regenerates us. He indwells us. One of my favorite scriptures is that he is a sealing, a guarantee of our inheritance. He illuminates scripture to us. We just went through as a church in 2025, looking through Acts, and all throughout Acts is the Holy Spirit, who is the power for us to complete the mission that Jesus has set us out on. He produces this character in us through the fruit of the Spirit. He intercedes for us when we don’t know how to pray, which is also another beautiful verse. When you just kind of get to those moments where you just don’t know what to do, the Holy Spirit is right there like, hey, I’ll take it from here. He truly is a helper. That’s what Jesus called him, the Paraclete, the helper. And I think that as Jesus has given us this mantle to bring heaven to earth, he has also given us the Holy Spirit. One of the most frustrating things as an individual is when you’ve been empowered to do something but you’ve not been equipped to do it. You’re responsible for this, but I’m not gonna give you the tools to complete it. Well, Jesus empowered us to do what he’s called us to do, and then he’s also equipped us with the Holy Spirit indwelling us. That’s my view of the Holy Spirit, that he is transformational power to complete the task that Jesus has for us.

Carrie: Yeah. And I just wanna insert something in here about OCD recovery too, because when God calls you to do hard things and you feel like, I can’t do this, I can’t do this thing that you’re asking me to do, that’s what you’re saying. It’s not supposed to be something that we’re supposed to strong-arm and muscle through, but God gives us the Holy Spirit to empower us to do that work that he has called us to do. And I think that people can get that really confused. It’s that whole idea of, I don’t wanna surrender my life over to God because he might call me to go be a missionary in Africa and I don’t wanna go be a missionary in Africa.

Pastor Jeremy: Right. I think when we say, well, I can’t, I would say, yeah, you’re right. We can’t in and of ourselves. We need the Holy Spirit. So when God calls us to do something, where God calls, he equips and he provides. And the thing about how I am wired is that a lot of times I won’t attempt something because it’s not perfect. A lot of times I won’t attempt something because I can’t see the win, or I can’t see an end game that makes me feel good about myself, and that’s not what we’re called to do. When Wyatt was in kindergarten, he’s my oldest and he’s 18 now, he got a note sent home because in kindergarten he would not draw a picture of his family. We sat down with him and said, why won’t you draw? Are you not proud of us? What’s the deal? We love you. And he said, I’m not drawing stick figures because it’s not going to do the family justice. He was not gonna draw something that didn’t represent who his family was. And I think a lot of times for us, we can get locked into that as well. But as a parent we would’ve said, I don’t care what you draw. This is beautiful. This represents me working through you. And I think that’s what the Holy Spirit wants us to understand. Stop worrying about what you think about the situation. Let me work through you. You may see it as imperfect. I see it as beautiful because I’m the one who’s working through you. It’s in your weaknesses that I’m shown strong.

Carrie: Yeah. I wanna shift things over to more personal life examples. God took you through this process where you were called out of Virginia and moved to plant a church in Murfreesboro. How did you see the Holy Spirit work through that process of basically uprooting you from one area and planting you in another?

Pastor Jeremy: Man, I wish I could take so much credit for that. I wanted to be part of just a growing, life-giving church. We were part of a church plant in Texas originally and we knew that God was calling us out, but we didn’t know where. I applied everywhere. Resumes sent out everywhere and nothing worked out. We ended up going back for me to get my master’s just as a fallback plan. When I did that, I ran into a guy who had been asked to come up and preach on the weekends for a church. I asked him if he wanted somebody to lead worship, just let me know. So that was in 2005 and that was 50 people. I remember when I went to get my master’s, I was angry. I was bitter. God hadn’t opened up a door. I was going back to get my education. I wanted to be at a church and no one thought I was good enough. That was primarily why I got a lot of no’s. I was just not good enough in their eyes. And so it really kind of messed with how I felt about who I was. We ended up at this church, and I thought at the time it was just a short-term thing. I get to lead worship, I get to pursue my masters, it’s gonna be fine. 15 years later, we went from 50 people to 5,500 to 6,000 people in six locations. And I had no part in that in the sense that I wasn’t smart enough to pick that. And I think that is evident when you look at how I left LifePoint in Virginia to start Alinea in Murfreesboro. It was not a clean, linear line of us hearing God and then leaving. It was kind of like the same thing when we left Texas. It was a lot of ups and downs. It was a lot of feeling like you’re twisted around like a pretzel. It was a lot of, okay, we’re gonna stop worrying about this. We would lay it down and then we would pick it back up and worry about it again. We would pray and we would go on long walks. We just couldn’t get a clear answer. I knew I felt something. Someone once told me that when God’s calling you, there’s a push and a pull. You feel like there’s a push. I remember even speaking with my pastor at the time and he said something very clear to me. He said, if you don’t feel like you can accomplish everything God has called you to do here, then that’s a great push. That’s a great understanding that maybe there’s something else in you. And then there’s also a pull. We had been homesick for Tennessee for 15 years. I was born in Tennessee. Jennifer was born in Tennessee. Songs about Tennessee would bring tears to our eyes because we missed Tennessee so much. And so there was definitely a pull. There was a guy who wrote a book called God at Work. He’s a businessman from England. His name’s Ken Costa. He’s very measured, very sophisticated, very academic, and he came and preached at LifePoint. It was kind of not really the kind of personality that fit who we were at the church. I mean, we had power preaching, powerful worship, and here you have this kind of guy that feels like he should be teaching at Oxford or something. So he comes and preaches for us. Then he does a staff meeting, and in the staff meeting he says something so out of character, like, what in the world is he talking about? He said these words: if you’re praying about leaving here, stop praying about it every day. You’re going to drive yourself nuts.

Carrie: Wow.

Pastor Jeremy: He said, pick it up every two months, every 30 days, every three months, and then revisit it and pray about it again. And that’s what I needed to hear because I was obsessing over it. My wife and I were wrapping ourselves in pretzels.

Carrie: That’s just a timing thing. Like God has given me certain visions for this podcast or for my business, and I’m just not sure right now. I’m trying to find clarity, like what is the timeline on this? And I just trust God that when it’s the time, he’s gonna open the right opportunities or the right doors, and I’m gonna know, okay, walk through that. Do you think that was part of it, or do you think it was more like God was preparing you personally, on a heart level, to be willing to do that?

Pastor Jeremy: In that moment, I feel like he was rescuing me from myself.

Carrie: Okay.

Pastor Jeremy: That was probably a Monday. I think our staff meetings were Mondays or Tuesdays. My job was to visit all the campuses. So we had six campuses. I’d drive with my two boys and Jennifer and we’d go visit the campus that was a county above us and see how the pastor was doing. My wife and I were sitting outside talking about this very thing. How often are we gonna pick this up? Are we gonna pray about this? Every three months we’re driving ourselves nuts. And in that moment the phone rang and it was a friend of ours who was part of the church, and it was one of those people that you trusted. They weren’t far out in left field and you didn’t roll your eyes when they said something to you. And she said, I need to talk to you and Jennifer together. We went to the car, put her on speakerphone, and she said, I had a dream about you. If I do not tell you this, somebody else is gonna tell you. I know God wants me to tell you something. And I said, what? And she told me this dream. We were like, she’s about to tell me I got cancer. I’m gonna die. What’s going on? And she said, I’m supposed to tell you it’s not time yet.

Carrie: Wow.

Pastor Jeremy: And we just bawled, both of us. I think that God always has a way, when we are seeking him and seeking his will, to ensure we get the message. I think we can be like, what if I miss it? What if God’s trying to tell me something? What if I miss it? People may disagree with me. This is just where I’ve landed. I just believe that God’s will is not a tightrope.

Carrie: Yeah.

Pastor Jeremy: I think a lot of times when we are pursuing, when we are seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance, James says ask for wisdom, right? Don’t doubt. Well, then we’re like, what if I’m doubting? I feel like I’m doubting. And so we just kind of wrap ourselves in pretzels and we get up on this rope and we’re tightroping God’s will like, oh my goodness, if I miss his voice, I’m gonna fall off and all hope is lost, and God’s will for my life is thrown out the window. I just don’t think I’m that powerful. I don’t think I am the type of person who can derail God’s will from my life to that extent, as long as I’m the one who’s pursuing the will of God.

Carrie: Yeah.

Pastor Jeremy: Right. There’s the opposite of that, like I could care less what God says. I could care less what his will is. I’m not even pursuing him. But if you’re pursuing him, seeking him, I could fall off, I could have missed that, but I feel like he knows what he’s doing. He can get me back on track. And I think moving from Texas to Virginia was like that. I think moving from Virginia to Tennessee was like that. Maybe there were some on-ramps that I missed where I was just too hardheaded or I was too afraid or whatever. But I feel like God is just able to keep ordering our steps and getting us where we need to be.

Carrie: That’s so good. And I think very relatable to this audience as well, who often feels like, I’ve gotta get it right. I’ve gotta get it exactly right and I’m gonna mess it up and I’m gonna somehow miss God’s voice. But God is very loving and gracious to us and redirects us as needed. Like, nope, not that direction. You thought you were going there, but sorry, over here. You said something several weeks ago that I was like, this is so comforting. You were talking in church about how we had prayed and I was like 85% sure that we were supposed to do this. I was just praying that God was really in it and that this was what God wanted us to do. That was so comforting to me, because our faith does require a level of faith. It’s not always just this clear map outline of what we’re supposed to do. God wants us to take these steps and trust him with the rest and trust him with the results.

Pastor Jeremy: Yeah, and I think 85% might be high. Again, I think it really comes back to pursuing the heart of God. I don’t think a lot of the things that I say really translate if you’re not pursuing him. I remember my mentor, you’ve heard me talk about him all the time, Ted Wilson. He’s gotta be like in his nineties. I can’t remember how old he is. He’s probably still out mowing lawns or something. I was coming out of college and I talked to a church in another state about coming on and being their music director, and I really hit it off with the pastor. When I went down to visit, I told my parents, this is where I’m going. I don’t wanna live here. I agonized over it, turned myself into a pretzel, and started asking everybody’s opinion about what I should do. I just felt like I was Jonah in the whale and God was calling me somewhere and I was saying no. I remember calling Ted and I said, this is how I’m feeling, blah blah blah. He listened to me and he finally got kind of fed up with me, I think, and he said, what do you wanna do? I said, I don’t wanna go. He said, then don’t go. And I was like, is it really that simple? And it was the first time in my life that I realized that there are certain filters you can filter God’s will through. I should do this. I shouldn’t do that. Some of them are clear what to do. Some of them are clear what not to do. Paul gives us a lot of latitude, like some things are permissible and profitable, some things are permissible and not profitable. So you can kind of filter through that. But then after that, it’s just like, does this honor God? Does this elevate others? Is this good for others? You can still be like, well, this doesn’t really filter anything. You can ask yourself, what do I wanna do? Where’s my heart at? I think a lot of times when you’re praying and you really have a heart for something, you should listen to that and maybe scratch that a little bit and see what God is trying to do in your life.

Carrie: Yeah, not all desires are bad. I think sometimes people have been taught in the church that if I want something, that’s bad, because it somehow means I’m not surrendered to God. But you have to surrender those desires over to God and pray about your motives and things of that nature as well. I do that a lot. God, I think I want this. Do I want it for the right reasons? Is this what you want for me? I think if you’re seeking him and filtering in that way, God gives you desires and that’s a good thing. Someone asked me recently, how in the world did you get into OCD work? And I said, it was God. I wasn’t really looking for this direction and God has just really broken my heart for this people group and the lack of resources they have, especially resources speaking directly to Christians. I just can’t really explain that to anybody. I can sort of explain the process of how I got here, but where God has brought me to is not anywhere that I chose, and at the same time I love it. I love what I’m doing. So we receive the Holy Spirit when we’re saved, right? But I wanna talk a little bit about being continually filled with the Holy Spirit. I took some scripture references from one of your sermons where you were talking about this repeated phrase of “filled with the Holy Spirit” that comes up in Acts. Acts 4:8 refers to Peter being filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 13:9, Paul is filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:52, the disciples were filled with joy in the Holy Spirit. Talk to us about the difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Pastor Jeremy: Yeah. I come from a theological background where I believe in a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I think that can be controversial, but I don’t think it should be. When we say baptizo, we just mean immersed.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Pastor Jeremy: And I wanna be immersed in the Holy Spirit, and I think all of us do. But I also grew up in a kind of Pentecostal background where I saw some things that I wrestled with theologically through college and seminary. I really kind of dug into the scriptures, and I heard a preacher say one time, and I loved it, regardless of where you fall on the spectrum, you’ve got Pentecost in Acts chapter two, but we should also be believers who want to be filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter four.

Carrie: Yeah.

Pastor Jeremy: Like this continual filling. I think that for me, it’s getting under the blessing and the provision of God. I think being filled with the Holy Spirit is a lot about aligning ourselves. It’s like an umbrella. A lot of times we can get ourselves out from underneath the protection of God and then we get out there and we’re like, God, why did you leave me? And he’s like, what are you talking about? Just get back under where my protection is. I think being filled with the Holy Spirit is a continual thing because the Holy Spirit is the person who empowers us to be able to do the things that God’s called us to do. And that’s why you see it all throughout Acts. It’s a continual filling. I made the joke in that sermon that it’s not set it and forget it. Some of your listeners will get that, a lot of them won’t. But it’s not this thing where you just say, oh, I’ve been baptized in the Holy Spirit, I don’t have to worry about that anymore. Well, that’s not the way the disciples operated. The disciples always operated from a position of, I need to decrease so he can increase. I need more of the Holy Spirit today. I pour out so that I want to be filled up. You’re a conduit. So if you’re a conduit, maybe conduit’s not the right word, maybe we’re water towers of the Holy Spirit, filled up with the Holy Spirit, and then you pour out. And I think it’s a continual process.

Carrie: Awesome. Well, I wanna talk briefly about this concern about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This is a very scary scripture passage for some people. Matthew 12:31 and 32 says, “Therefore, I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.” What in the world does this mean?

Pastor Jeremy: Yeah. I think this is such an important question, especially when it deals with OCD, because there’s so much fear and worry behind it.

Carrie: Yeah.

Pastor Jeremy: Like, have I committed the unpardonable sin and is all hope lost for me? I really wanna be very careful and precise here. I think what’s important about that passage is Jesus says every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit. I think that one of the things we should start with is, wow, what a grace-filled passage. Like everything. Everything is gonna be forgiven. Think about the world and how broken it is and what a swath of grace Jesus just laid out there. But I think that when he is talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the context is that he has just cast out a demon. The Pharisees are watching this in real time, and they attribute his work to Beelzebub. And the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in that moment is not careless and not final. It’s not a season of doubt. I think we’ve all had seasons of doubt.

Carrie: Sure.

Pastor Jeremy: I still continually have seasons of doubt where I’m like, God, where are you? What am I doing? And think about David in the Psalms, how often he is pouring his heart out to God and a lot of these prayers are not elegant. A lot of his prayers are very angry. Like, what is going on? Why have you left me? I think that’s the heart that God wants us to have. He wants us to be real. But in this instance, it was settled for the Pharisees. It was settled. It was deliberate. It was eyes wide open.

Carrie: It was basically saying that something God was doing was attributable to demonic forces.

Pastor Jeremy: Yeah. And I think it’s unforgivable, not because God refuses to forgive. That’s not what’s going on there. It’s because the person has permanently rejected the only means of forgiveness. It’s like refusing to take the only medicine that cures the disease. The cure is available, but the person won’t take it. I’ve heard someone say, and I think this is beautiful, that if you’re wrestling with that, then chances are pretty good, a hundred percent, that you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, because what you’re worried about is your posture with God. The Pharisees were not worried about their posture with God. And I think what we’ve gotta understand is that intrusive thoughts are not the same as a settled, volitional rejection of Jesus. That’s my take on that particular passage.

Carrie: Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, I think our brain makes a lot of noise. There are thoughts that just come into our head that are intrusive and that we don’t have to create extra meaning out of. We can say, that was an intrusive thought, I’m not gonna go down that pathway. And sometimes that takes a lot of treatment, practice, and intentionality. But then there are thoughts that we intentionally think, and God knows how your brain works better than you do. God knows the posture of your heart and your desires to please him. Sometimes in spiritual life, even just as you’ve been talking about in this conversation, we want certainty. There’s a general desire to know, yes, exactly, a hundred percent. This is God. This is exactly what he wants me to do. But our relationship with God means we’re looking through the glass dimly. Things are a little bit messy right now until we get to heaven. One day things will be a lot clearer. So I appreciate your perspectives and your stories on this. I think they’re very relatable.

Pastor Jeremy: Yeah. I think on that particular passage, the fear is just indicative of a soft heart. I think the soft heart is what we’re called to have. That’s why I think if you’re fearful of that, you’re not there. You’re not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You’ve got a soft heart, a soft and contrite, broken heart. That’s what the Lord gravitates towards.

Carrie: When we got off the air, I told Pastor Jeremy that some of what he said today was for me and I really appreciated it. I think I had been stuck on some business decisions, trying to make sure that I was making the right ones or focusing on the right projects for my business and the podcast. And it helped me to be able to let go and say, you know what? I’m surrendered to God and he’s gonna lead me in a direction when the timing is right, and I don’t need to continue to mull over this so much or have it all figured out right now. That may be a great thought for you if you struggle with rumination, to just say, you know what? I don’t have to have it all figured out right now, because there are many things in life we can’t figure out right now, and that’s okay. We’re living in that tension and that everyday uncertainty that we can trust God with.

Pastor Jeremy: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Carrie: Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

218. How Do I Know It’s Time to Switch Churches? with Steve Bock

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie and her husband Steve share their personal journey of navigating when it may be time to leave a church, walk through red flags, yellow flags, and how to prayerfully discern your next step.

Episode Highlights:

How to recognize the difference between red flags and yellow flags in a church

Why sound doctrine and healthy leadership matter for your spiritual growth

How your own role (connection, serving, engagement) impacts your church experience

Practical steps to take before deciding to leave, including conversations and self-reflection

How to prayerfully discern if God is leading you to stay or move on

Episode Summary

When Is It Time to Leave a Church?

Leaving a church is one of those decisions that can feel heavier than we expect.

For Steve and me, this hasn’t been a one-time conversation. It’s been a journey we’ve walked through multiple times. From trying to find the right balance between strong biblical teaching and openness to the Holy Spirit, to sitting in that tension of wondering, “Is this where we’re supposed to be?” we’ve wrestled with it more than we would have liked.

If you’ve ever felt that internal stirring or quiet discomfort, this conversation is for you.

Have you been trying to find the “right” kind of church?

One of the challenges we faced early on in our marriage was coming from very different church backgrounds. I grew up in a more knowledge-based faith, while Steve came from a strong Holy Spirit emphasis. We were trying to find a place where both could exist together.

That led to a lot of searching, visiting different churches, and realizing that not every place was going to be the right fit for both of us.

Why do people start thinking about leaving their church?

There are many reasons people begin to question staying. Sometimes it’s a lack of meaningful connection. Other times it’s life changes like moving, having children, or even just getting out of the habit of attending.

We also talked about how things like doubt, church scandals, or shifts in belief can play a role. And sometimes it’s not one big moment. It’s a slow build over time.

What are some signs you shouldn’t ignore?

In our conversation, we share a few situations that should cause you to pause and take a closer look. Especially when it comes to what’s being taught, how leadership operates, and whether there is healthy accountability.

Some of these situations are more serious than others, and understanding the difference can help you respond wisely instead of reacting quickly.

What if the issue isn’t just the church?

This was something we had to wrestle with personally.

There were moments where we had to ask ourselves hard questions like, “Am I really trying to connect?” or “Am I just showing up and expecting everything to come to me?”

It’s easy to point outward, but sometimes growth requires looking inward too.

What should you do before deciding to leave?

Before making a decision, we talk about the importance of slowing down.

That can look like praying, reflecting, and even having conversations with leadership when appropriate. It also means asking whether you’ve done what you can to engage, serve, and be part of the community rather than just observing from the outside.

How does God guide church transitions?

One thing we’ve learned is that God’s leading doesn’t always feel simple, but it can become clearer over time.

There were seasons where we didn’t fully understand why we were somewhere, and later realized God was doing something in us during that time. And when it was time to move on, there was a sense of stirring that we couldn’t ignore.

If you’re in that place right now, you’re not alone in it.

If this is something you’ve been wrestling with, I hope this gives you a place to start.

Tune in to the full conversation, and share this episode with someone who may need this encouragement today.

Transcript

Carrie: Today on the podcast, I’m welcoming back my amazing husband. Welcome back, Steve.

Steve: Thank you. Thank you.

Carrie: It’s been a little while since you’ve been on the podcast, so you’re due again. Way back on episode 92, we had a discussion about when ministry becomes toxic. I think it was more geared towards people actually in ministry, just kind of a self-evaluation or things to watch out for as you’re working with other ministry leaders. So if people want to go back and listen to that, we talked about putting ministry leaders on pedestals, focusing on numbers, not valuing rest, and how that can be detrimental — like this idea that you have to do it all yourself. I invite you guys to go check that out if you’re interested, but today we’re talking about when it’s time to switch churches. And we’ll just say, without going into a lot of detail, that we’ve had a lot of experience with this issue. Unfortunately.

Steve: We have, and I think a lot of people have.

Carrie: Welcome, OCD Warriors, to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories, and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace. I’m Carrie Bach, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode.

We’ve kind of been on this journey ever since we got married. And I think even for me, it started before we got married — trying to find this balance of a church where we had good connections and relationships, that preached the word of God, where we could really dig in and experience change. And for me, a lot of that has been growing up in a very knowledge-based faith, and you grew up very differently. You grew up in a very Holy Spirit-emphasis community. We were trying to marry that, and almost went to opposite ends of the pendulum. It’s like you gravitated towards more of a knowledge-based church and I gravitated towards more of a Holy Spirit-based church, and somehow we were trying to figure out how to meet in the middle. What do you want to say about that?

Steve: It was a challenge for sure. Just for me, finding a church that I felt comfortable with and felt that I could learn from and grow with. And then when you get married, there are a lot of things that you really have to think about. I didn’t want just knowledge-based because there’s more to it than that for me. Yeah, we’ve had our challenges there.

Carrie: Our first church ended up moving locations and we just didn’t feel called to continue with them after that move. So that left us searching, and it was hard because I would like one, and then you would say, “Oh no, a little too much bent that direction,” and then you would like one and I would be like, “Eh, I don’t know about this.” We tried a lot of different places, and you would think in Tennessee that we would have a variety of churches, but a lot of times it’s a carbon copy of the same types of things.

Steve: Before we got married, I was very happy with where I was attending church. But that would’ve been a long drive.

Carrie: We ended up doing a lot of searching, landed at some places for a short period, then landed somewhere for a little longer, and then it was like God was stirring us — both individually and collectively — like, “Okay, we’ve been here for a little while.” We never really understood why God had us there, which was really interesting. And then we kind of felt that it was time to move forward. We ended up finding a church plant in Murfreesboro called Alinea Church. That’s where we’re hanging out now. I know in the past we had talked about being part of a church that was going to be planted in Smyrna, and that has yet to come to fruition, which was part of our move — not in total, but part of it.

Steve: Right.

Carrie: Via the internet, I looked at a lot of the reasons that people leave churches. I just kind of did a little Google search: lack of meaningful connections, deconstruction, doubts, going through scandals, obviously life changes, moving, having a child. Really getting out of the habit of going to church was a big one.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: People miss a Sunday here or there. They get involved in something. COVID.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: They start working and maybe sometimes have to work on Sundays — all kinds of different things. But when we’re evaluating, or trying to help you guys evaluate whether it’s time to switch, I wrote down some red flags. These are things that I would consider to be pretty big deals and definite reasons to leave. Whereas the yellow flags are just things to think about and evaluate within yourself. It may be the church, and it may be you. You may really need to sit in prayer with the Holy Spirit and evaluate: Where am I at right now? How does this fit in terms of this church and where they’re going? Are we moving in the same direction?

Red flag number one is there’s a lack of sound doctrine. Your pastor isn’t preaching the Bible. Maybe he’s telling a lot of personal stories. Maybe he’s quoting C.S. Lewis or other theologians, but really isn’t digging into the Bible. What do you want to say about that one?

Steve: I’m a big fan of sound doctrine. That’s a must. If I’m at a church and there’s not sound doctrine, we’ve got a problem. If it’s just happy stories, that’s nice and all, but what am I gaining from that? How am I growing? You’ve got to have something that challenges you. I would even say I like to have my toes stepped on a little bit — but I hesitate to say that because I don’t want to get our current pastor too excited and start stomping right and left on our toes. But if need be, so be it.

Carrie: Yeah. Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” We need somebody who is utilizing the word of God effectively, because otherwise it’s just their words at the end of the day, right? Versus being God’s words. Second Timothy 3:16 talks about scripture being profitable for teaching — which is obviously happening on Sunday mornings — for reproof, correction, and training. So there has to be, like you were saying, this element of it’s not just, “Hey, God loves you and he doesn’t require anything from you.” There should be this balance of “God loves you,” and because we’re transformed by that love, we want to serve him and do things for God. There may be areas of our life that we need to get in line with what he wants for us. If there is no challenge, that’s concerning.

Red flag number two is your pastor has had some type of moral failure and has not gone through any process to be restored — no accountability, no counseling. We’re talking about things like coming out with a pornography addiction, cheating on his wife, et cetera. There really needs to be some type of process for someone to go through, and oftentimes that means stepping away from the church, or at least taking time until they can get back on track.

Steve: Sure. That would be a time — I don’t think I’ve really had to deal with that with a pastor — but if I did find out there was some kind of moral failure, I would hope that he would get the help, get some sort of counseling. And I would have no problem being there for him, as long as I knew he was making attempts to get the help. Because we all fall short. It’s not a “don’t judge me” concept. It’s more of, “Hey, I want to be there for you. I want to be a brother that prays for you. I’m there with you.”

Carrie: And I think we have to remember that church discipline is biblical. A lot of times what happens in our society — in the American church anyway — is somebody in some type of leadership will have one of these things happen. And then they get mad, maybe because someone removes them from their ministry for a period of time. And then they just leave the church. We have to protect the other people in the church — the new believers, the non-believers, people that are trying to come to Christ. And we have to hold people to a standard.

Steve: Yeah. As a church, you don’t want to send out the message that that’s okay, no big deal.

Carrie: Right.

Steve: That’s not the truth. But if you’ve got a pastor who’s repentant, that’s different. But that doesn’t mean they can necessarily continue to preach. They may need to take a break. That would definitely be a reason I could see people justifiably going to another church.

Carrie: Another red flag is more about the organization and structure of the church — where the pastor, maybe in a small church, is making all the decisions. There’s a lack of accountability. I’m talking about things like he’s literally signing every check without a secondary signer, he’s in charge of all the finances, he doesn’t have accountability to a board, to elders, or to a leadership team, and he essentially has full reign to do whatever he wants. I don’t think you want that in any type of nonprofit organization. It’s just not wise business. But unfortunately in some small church or rural area contexts, it does happen. And then anybody who tries to stand against the pastor who holds the main power is kind of shunned or pushed away. That’s where things almost get a little cultish, if you want to say that.

Steve: Yeah. And I think that’s where you might have to have that difficult conversation with the pastor. And say — that would be tough — I might say, “We’re thinking about leaving, and here’s why.” I think it’s so easy to just leave without having that conversation.

Carrie: I think so many people have seen or experienced that at one point or another, and now there are a lot more safeguards in place than there used to be. But I’m not going to say that it doesn’t happen. We have to be careful about how much power we give people and how high we elevate them. Our pastors are also human beings. We talked about that in the last episode — if you put them on a huge pedestal, and something happens, you’re just devastated and it rocks your faith. That’s not healthy.

Steve: No.

Carrie: Yellow flags. Your church isn’t focused on evangelism and isn’t growing. You’re only existing for people inside the church. Eventually what happens is those churches end up dying, because they’re not growing. People get older and start passing away, and maybe their children are there, but there’s a very small remnant, and that’s about it. There are some churches in our area, unfortunately, that we pass by and we’re kind of like, “Who is going there?”

Steve: Yeah, it’s four cars in the parking lot on a Sunday morning, and you have to wonder. Well, they’re there for a purpose. But wow. I think too, in those situations, there’s almost a duty for you to step up and say, “Okay, I’ve noticed this. How can I make the change? Is there something more that I can do?”

Carrie: And I think in these yellow flag scenarios, it’s: what can the church do, and what can I do? I think before you leave a church — we can talk about this later — have you tried to be the change that you want to see? Have you invited people to church, and then maybe nobody said hello to them or tried to talk to them? Have you brought that to the leadership? “Hey, I’ve tried to bring a couple of people. I haven’t really found an environment of warmth or friendliness. It seems like a very closed system here — almost like a social club.” I visited some small churches many years ago where it was painfully obvious that we were new, and people didn’t really reach across the pew to say hello. That makes you feel very unwelcome. But then they got up front and said, “We’re going to go out visiting people.” And I’m like, you don’t need to go out visiting people — I am literally new, right here in your pew. You could just say hello.

Steve: It would be such an easy thing. I’ll save you the pain of coming to my house. Just talk to me now.

Carrie: Yeah. And I will say, there are times where a smaller church — maybe older or not reaching younger people or families — will link up with another church that is doing that and merge. That can be a really positive experience for both parties, having the wisdom of people who’ve been around longer combined with the freshness of the younger generation. What do you think about church merges?

Steve: I think you have to, as a church, be willing to step outside of that comfort zone a little and make sure you’re reaching a demographic that maybe isn’t being covered.

Carrie: Second yellow flag is you don’t have personal connections. And I would say this has to be on you to make an effort — to show up at the functions, show up at the small groups, try to get connected in the community, whatever that looks like. Try to serve. This can be really challenging in some circles.

Steve: Yeah. A lot of people, I think, just want to show up for the fun stuff —

Carrie: And not the hard stuff.

Steve: And that’s easy to do. But you’ve got to get in there and serve sometimes, just to show up and be supportive.

Carrie: I know that I’ve definitely left churches for this reason — for not having personal connections. Even when I tried to go to a small group, tried to talk with staff members, tried to figure out where my place was and how to serve. Do you feel like you’ve left churches for that reason as well in the past?

Steve: Yeah. Maybe because I didn’t fit in. I haven’t left a lot of churches as a whole — if I left, it was oftentimes because I moved. But there have been times that I just didn’t click. I had one church, years and years ago before we ever met, that moved like 30-plus miles away, and that was hard. But even at that church, my reason for leaving was more to do with the move, even though I didn’t necessarily find a lot of single people my age there. And I always said, if that’s my reason for leaving, I’ll never find a church in this area. If everyone leaves for that reason, there’ll never be a person that stays. If a couple stay, it has a chance to grow so that others who come in after you think, “Oh, okay. There’s more than just me here.” Sometimes you just have to do the uncomfortable, but I have left before for not fitting in.

Carrie: I think we have this tendency to want to find people who are exactly like us. So if we’re single, we want to find the single people. If we’re married, where are the married people? If we’re married with children, we want the married-with-children people. There’s a natural gravitation towards that. But I hope the church will intermingle some of those groups in small groups. I know that can be challenging, but I think it’s important. Like in our small group right now, we have people with younger children and people with grown children and grandchildren. It’s nice to have that mixture, because you have people who have experienced part of your life that you’re going into, who you can ask questions. Even though it can be challenging to bridge that gap at times, I think it can also be really healthy.

You and I had talked about this — if there’s a small group of all young married people, who’s mentoring them? Who’s discipling them on what it means to be married? What happens when they run into an issue?

Steve: Yeah. I think we all have to somehow work together. Again, I’ve been at a church before where I was the single one. I remember thinking, “Well, that would be me — the single ministry. The only single.” But I appreciated during those times when couples would reach out to me. “Hey, why don’t you come hang out with us?” Or a small group would say, “Hey, why don’t you join us? It doesn’t matter that you’re not married like we are. That’s fine.” That makes a big difference when you see that situation and you step outside of yourself and say, “Hey.” Because you don’t want a person to be uncomfortable. I think a lot of things go unnoticed, which is why sometimes you have to talk to leadership and say, “Hey, this is something I noticed, and I can’t be the only one.”

Carrie: Right. And I know from being involved in a singles ministry at my church in the past, there was definitely a challenge because it seemed like there was a lot geared towards married people, even from the pulpit — entire sermon series on marriage and parenting. But then you felt very isolated and alone. It didn’t really seem like when you would try to do things or promote things, it was supported. And that was a huge challenge. I did talk with some of the leadership there and try to express some of those concerns. It can just feel very isolating, and I think it causes you and me to maybe watch out more for single people in the church.

Steve: Oh, absolutely.

Carrie: Because of our own experiences in the past. And the church can facilitate connections. They can create opportunities for you to have connections, like small groups. If you’re going to a church and they have no small groups, that’s a challenge when it comes to finding those connections. Ultimately, you can’t just have those connections on Sunday morning — they have to leave the building at some level. You have to be able to go out to coffee with somebody, and that takes a certain level of bravery to say, “Hey, can we get lunch after church this Sunday?” You’ve got to be vulnerable.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: To say, “Hey, I need relationships.”

Steve: And that’s where sometimes being at a church comes down to you. A lot. I mean, yes, the church has a responsibility — preaching sound doctrine, what are they offering, how are they facilitating things. But essentially you have to ask yourself: what am I doing or not doing? What could I do differently? And I had a checklist when we’ve looked for churches before. There’s also a checklist I think that has to be had for yourself — what am I doing? How am I doing? Am I doing anything? Maybe that’s why I’m not happy. I’m not doing anything.

Carrie: And I would say another yellow flag is you’re not growing spiritually at your church. And you could not be growing spiritually for a variety of reasons. Maybe you’re not engaging in personal Bible study on your own. Maybe you’re not serving. Maybe you’re not involved in a small group or being challenged by people in your inner circle. I would say that’s not all on the church, but it may be: what’s my part in this equation to grow spiritually, and what is the church’s part? What do you want to say about that?

Steve: Yeah, definitely. You have to gauge between you and the church — what is the church’s part? Are they doing their part? It’s so easy to blame the church. Nobody’s going to blame themselves hardly. Very few people, I would say, would look at themselves and think, “I probably need to step up and volunteer more. Maybe I should teach the third graders.”

Carrie: As you’re teaching, you’re learning and you’re growing. It’s like a loop that’s happening.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: And I’ve noticed that even with the trainings that I do for ICBT. As I’m teaching and having to absorb a lot of information and then break it down in a way that’s easier for people to understand, as people ask questions, I go, “Oh, I didn’t explain that as clearly as I could have. Let me go back and try to do that another way.” It’s a nice feedback loop to have.

Steve: I know for me, I worked with youth for several years. I grew more in that time than prior to it, because they were asking me questions that I had to be honest and say, “You know, I’m not sure. Let’s look that up together.” I grew like mad during that time because I’d go home and think, “Well, I don’t really have a clue what we’re talking about here. Is this 12-year-old really way smarter than me about the Bible?” And you have to drop your pride and be willing to say, “Yeah, they kind of are. Let’s find out why.”

Carrie: You mentioned this a little bit before — when your toes aren’t stepped on, when you don’t feel like there’s a challenge to go live differently, it’s kind of like a Mr. Rogers Sunday morning. I think sometimes pastors can fall into a rut where it feels like the same exact message over and over, and you’re like, “Okay, I got that part. I need the next piece.” Feeling like you’re constantly in elementary school, so to speak, and that can be very frustrating.

Steve: I definitely think that’s true. And I think it doesn’t hurt to go meet your pastor for coffee, find out where they’re at, give them some encouragement. Maybe they need to know, “Hey, I love you, but I’m kind of tired of the Sermon on the Mount — just slightly. We have heard that for 15 Sundays in a row. It’s time to move on.” No, I don’t know if you say it like that.

Carrie: Obviously what you’re talking about depends on the size of your church and access to the pastor. But usually you have access to associate pastors or someone you can talk to.

Steve: Absolutely.

Carrie: A few points I wanted to bring up before you leave the church: Have you tried being the change that you want to see? So if you don’t feel like your church is warm and welcoming to outsiders — like we talked about — are you the person who, when you see a new person come in, goes over to them and says, “Hey, how are you? Glad you’re here. Tell us a little bit about yourself”? Are you trying to reach out and make those personal connections? If you don’t have them, are you trying to reach outside the church so that you’re not just existing for the people inside? Are you seeking to grow spiritually, even if your church still feels a little dry? Anything else you want to say about being the change you want to see in the church?

Steve: I think you have to ask yourself — am I just sitting in the stands watching?

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: Or am I a part of the game? Not that it’s a game, but —

Carrie: The community. Am I a part of making the family better?

Steve: Exactly. What’s my role? God gave me these gifts and these talents. What am I doing with them? Am I offering any of that to the church?

Carrie: Our pastor gave this really great analogy about how when you go to a hotel, for example, you’re like, “Oh, what’s in it for me?” You’re looking for the free shampoo, or “Oh, this is some nice lotion or nice towels.” You go in there and you consume. You leave the towel on the floor because that’s what they want with the dirty towels nowadays — you leave them on the floor so they know to clean them. You’re not really worried about keeping things neat and tidy because you know you’re not going to stay. You’re coming, you’re consuming, and you’re leaving. Versus your house — hopefully you treat that differently. You’re not going to throw your towel on the floor. You’re going to want things to be somewhat organized. You’re going to want your house to be welcoming to other people. And the church — your attitude towards your church — you don’t want to just have a consumer mindset, all about “what’s in it for me?” But rather, what can I give, and how can I contribute to making things better?

Steve: When you go to the hotel, it’s not yours. When you go to the church you attend, do you treat it like yours or just a place to show up? I think that’s what you’re saying.

Carrie: My second point before you leave is: have you talked to the leadership about your concerns? Maybe it’s a yellow flag kind of thing — “Hey, how can I get more connected?” or “I feel stagnant,” or “Maybe I need more accountability,” or “There’s something missing here.” Because we do want to contribute to the church, but we also have needs. It should be a mutually beneficial relationship, because if you’re giving and not receiving what you need, then you’re going to burn out at some point in that process.

Steve: Yeah. And I think you have to do all of that in love.

Carrie: Yeah. And with a spirit of humility.

Steve: Absolutely. Hopefully you can do that in love and they’ll meet you back with love. Usually.

Carrie: And I would say for the last point: have you prayed about it, and do you feel God is leading you in a different direction than maybe the church is going?

Steve: Which, in hindsight, we probably should have made that the first point.

Carrie: Sure.

Steve: We should always pray about it first. Right? Because sometimes God does call you to go elsewhere. That’s your thing and what he’s calling you to do. So you would be wrong to stay in those cases if God’s calling you to leave. But I think he makes it very clear when it’s time to leave. Usually.

Carrie: Yeah. I would say that before we got married, God was really stirring within me to leave a particular church. I knew I needed to get away from some of the knowledge-based and more towards the Holy Spirit. I cried for two days. Literally. Yeah. Like I felt that stirring and I was so grieved about it. I was like, “God, I can’t leave my church.” I did have some good connections there. I did love the people. I just knew there was something spiritually that needed to grow within me and needed to mature. And honestly, had I not left that church, I don’t know that this podcast would exist — just because of the discussions surrounding dreaming with God that were at the next church, and that really was part of what birthed all of this.

I think God has a purpose and a plan for us and for churches as well, and hopefully the leadership is remaining moldable to what God is calling them to do. But at that point, I did go to the leadership and explain what had been happening within me, what I was experiencing, and some of the issues I had. They already knew some of those issues. It was not a shock or a surprise to them, because I had already been vocal about some things.

And then our last church before we started going to Alinea — that was probably the nicest, cleanest, most agreeable breakup with a church we’ve ever had.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: It wasn’t done out of hate or anger or anything like that. It was just, “We’re called to leave. I don’t know what else to say about it.”

Steve: Right.

Carrie: I guess I want to encourage some of our listeners out there, because I know there are a lot of conversations about mental health and the church — about mental illness and how your church views it. Some churches say — and they are fewer, but some say — there’s no such thing as mental illness. “This is all spiritual. You need to get right with God.” And if you know in your spirit that that’s a really unhealthy environment for you to be in, and really unhealthy messaging for you to hear, know that it’s okay to walk away from that. Or if you are in a situation where you’re being taken advantage of by leadership and there are just really unhealthy things going on — you don’t have to stay in an environment that’s not benefiting your mental health.

Final thoughts?

Steve: I think don’t take the decision lightly if you’re thinking of leaving. Unless it’s something they’re preaching that’s totally off and you know it — not as an opinion, but as something that’s not theologically sound — or unless there’s something going on in the church that’s just not okay. Give it a minute. Try to figure out: what have I done or not done that I could or couldn’t do better? What’s my role? What do I need to do first? Because it’s really easy to just have a knee-jerk reaction — “I’m out, smell you later” — and be gone. That would be so easy to do. And I’m thankful that I’ve never left a church where I just up and left. It always took a lot of prayer, time, and consideration.

Carrie: Yeah. And I know that you and I had a lot of conversations about some of these processes that we mentioned at the end — like, have we done enough? Have we vocalized enough? Have we tried to lead in a way that would be healthy? And at the end, I think it’s just really hard to explain. We had swung back to the knowledge side and just really needed more faith, more Holy Spirit, more openness to the Spirit’s leading. And that’s kind of what we feel like we’ve found. We’re very hopeful and joyful about finding a non-denominational church that has that balance of sound doctrine, knowledge, and also room and openness for the Holy Spirit.

Here we are. It’s been a process. It’s been a journey. So if you’ve been on a journey with your theology as well, my final thought would be to say: be open to that. Just be open, and prayerful, and reading your Bible, and listening to what God is telling you and where he’s leading you to go.

Steve: Amen. And it’s not just a nice place to show up to. A nice little social spot where you come in, get your happy feeling for the week, and go home. It’s got to be more than that.

Carrie: I agree. I think sometimes — like you’re saying — people will go to a certain church because their friends go there. And that’s not a wrong way to find a church, if you know your friends are also following Christ and you’re looking for a solid place. But you see people where it’s like, “Oh, well, my kid has more friends at this church over here, so we’re going to go over there” — instead of staying committed to their church. And then they end up moving around a lot.

Steve: Which was part of the fear that I know we both had — being church hoppers. We didn’t want that. And by no means were we, but that fear comes into play.

Carrie: Right.

Steve: We’re like, “Oh man, I don’t even want to be labeled as a church hopper. I’ve never been one. I don’t want to start.” That’s not my motive or goal. I think there are a lot of people who just get bored.

Carrie: They just —

Steve: Go to the next thing.

Carrie: And what’s the next best thing in town? This church over here is doing some crazy Easter egg hunt, or that church over there has a bunch of lights and sounds and flashy stuff. We just have to be careful about preferences and how they fit into the whole conversation. Yeah.

I’m so glad that Steve and I got to record this episode together. Since we hit record, new information has come to light which really just confirmed our decision to leave where we were and go to Alinea. God knew what was coming that we didn’t know. I remember sitting out on our front porch last summer and telling God, “I cannot do this big church search thing again. I’ve been there and done that. I just need you to bring us where we are supposed to be.” I knew that Steve had told me he was ready to go whenever I was, but that he was just giving me time and space to work through it and be patient however long I needed to figure that transition out.

I’m so thankful to God that he showed us where we needed to be. We went the first Sunday and we’ve continued going ever since. Trust me — I know it doesn’t always happen that way, and sometimes it takes a while to find your home church. One of the reasons I wanted to have this episode was because next week our pastor is going to be on to talk about the Holy Spirit. I hope that you’ll come back to hear that conversation. There was a lot that I got out of it personally, and I know that you will too.

Steve: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Carrie: Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

217. When the Suffering Won’t End with John Bennett

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

Carrie welcomes back John Bennett from Episode 76 for a powerful conversation about how a multiple myeloma diagnosis in 2019 has shaped his faith, perspective on heaven, and daily purpose, with encouragement for anyone walking a long road of suffering.

Episode Highlights:

  • What John discovered when he stopped fighting his diagnosis and chose to embrace it instead.
  • How to keep going when OCD, anxiety, or suffering feels like a long-term battle.
  • Why focusing on today can bring more peace and reduce anxiety
  • How acceptance can help you walk with God in the middle of pain
  • What it looks like to find purpose and live out your faith even with limitations or ongoing struggles
  • How God uses suffering to build endurance, deepen your faith, and remind you that your healing story isn’t finished yet
  • How suffering that never fully goes away can still become one of the greatest gifts in your life.

Episode Summary:

I surveyed our listeners a while back and found that most of you have been struggling with OCD for ten to fifteen years. That is a long time to be in something hard. So when I think about who I want to bring into this space, I want someone who actually knows what the long road feels like. John Bennet was on the podcast back in episode 76, and I am so glad he came back. He was diagnosed with multiple myeloma in May of 2019. Doctors did not think he would still be here. But nearly seven years later, he is, and I think what he has learned in that time is exactly what so many of you need to hear.

Why Does God Allow Suffering That Doesn’t End?

When suffering lingers far longer than we hoped, it can leave us asking hard questions about God, healing, and how to keep moving forward. In this episode, I sit down again with John Bennett to talk about what it looks like to trust God in the middle of ongoing pain. John shares openly about his journey with multiple myeloma, a terminal blood cancer, and how the Lord has sustained him through years of treatment, fatigue, and uncertainty.

How Do You Keep Going When Healing Doesn’t Come?

What stayed with me after this conversation is John’s perspective on suffering. Rather than spending his strength fighting against what was happening, he chose to accept that God had allowed this trial and would use it for good. That does not mean the journey has been easy. It means he found a way to walk with God through it, and his story is a powerful picture of faith, endurance, and living with purpose even when life feels hard.

What Do You Do When You’ve Prayed for Healing but Still Feel Stuck?

We explore what it means to suffer for the long haul rather than a short season. We talk about how discouraging it can be when healing does not come the way we prayed for, how lonely it feels when others do not understand ongoing pain, and how God meets us one day at a time even when we cannot see the full picture.

Can You Still Live with Purpose While You’re Hurting?

There is so much here for anyone walking through OCD, anxiety, chronic illness, grief, or any struggle that has not resolved quickly. Even when suffering is not removed, God is still near, still faithful, and still working in ways we may not yet see.

Is There Hope If My Struggle Feels Like It Will Never End?

If you have been carrying something heavy for a long time, I pray this episode helps you feel less alone and more anchored in God’s love. 

Tune in to the full episode of Christian Faith and OCD Episode 217 to hear this conversation with John Bennett and be encouraged in your own journey. If it blesses you, share it with someone who needs it today.

Explore Related Episode:

76. Finding Joy in the Midst of the Trial of Cancer with John Bennet
Transcript

Christian Faith and OCD Episode 217 (1)

Carrie: Welcome OCD Warriors to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian sharing hopeful stories. And replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace. I’m Carrie Bock, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

I pray you are blessed by today’s episode. Last time we recorded way back on episode 76 and now we are recording together again on episode 217. So it’s been a little while. Wow. Yeah. It’s good to have you back though. And last time we were focused on joy in the midst of your cancer trial, and since we have many new listeners, can you just give us the cliff notes version of like when you were diagnosed and where you are now on your cancer journey?

John: I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which is a blood cancer that is considered now to be treatable for most people, or a lot of people that’s not curable. It’s still considered technically a terminal cancer. It does kill many people, but they’ve come a long way. So I was diagnosed in May of 2019. I have been on some pretty intense treatment for the first year and a half and had some surgeries and different things, and then I’ve been on a maintenance treatment up until today actually.

So currently that kind of helps keep the cancer at bay because most of the time studies have shown 80 to 90% of the time multiple myeloma comes back. So you have to fight it again. So this has been almost seven years that I’ve had this disease, and actually I’m very thankful to be alive. When I first was diagnosed, they really didn’t think I would probably be alive at this point.

But the treatments have come so far that I’m actually still here and doing better than I thought I would be able to be doing at this point. It’s definitely been a journey, but God has been incredibly faithful and as I mentioned, just the advances in the treatment has. I’ve come so far in the seven years that I’ve had the cancer, that it went from being a virtually a death senate several years before I got the cancer, to now being something that people can at least continue to have, hopefully a good many years of life after they’re diagnosed.

I think

Carrie: that’s really helpful to know is that especially with medical things, sometimes people project into the future, and the truth is God is the only one that really knows. We don’t know what the future holds. And so I’m always a little cautious when people say things like, well, the doctor said there’s only this much time left, or this terrible thing could happen, or that thing could happen.

We just have to really trust God in those hard moments. Like, okay, well, you know, and you hold the future in our hands at that point.

John: Definitely, and I think with this scenario, God has really used it in my life, and I talked about that in our first podcast a lot, but he has worked in my life so much to bring me closer to him.

And he gave me the ability to really embrace this after I was diagnosed. Of course, it’s a scary thing to find that out, but I felt like God was telling me, look, I ordained you to have cancer. This is what I have for you. And so I decided I was just gonna embrace it and I haven’t always done that with things in my life, but I decided I would do that and roll with it.

And it has turned out a lot better than I thought it was gonna, really didn’t think I’d still be alive right now. Much less doing as well as I’m doing. So you’re right. I think you can’t predict the future when God is involved and if he’s in in it, even if it doesn’t turn out like you want it to, it still can be a real blessing and that’s definitely what’s happened for me.

A good thing I didn’t get all depressed and really get. Mad at God and hopeless because it would’ve been a shame I would’ve wasted so much time that I’ve had, and I’ve had a lot more time than I thought I was gonna. So you’re right. Sometimes it’s best not to prejudge, I guess, the future, and especially with thinking about the negative things that could happen or the worst case scenarios.

Carrie: I wanted to have you on because I consider you a spiritual expert in suffering. Dunno if you knew that or not. Oh gosh. Uh, I don’t think I live up to that, but I appreciate the, well, so I surveyed our listeners several months ago, and the majority of people that are tuning in to this, I would say, have been struggling with OCD in some way, shape, or form.

I mean, it can wax and wane under stress, so they may have had some periods where it was lighter or maybe not at all, but then some periods where it was very bad. They’ve been struggling for a good 10 to 15 years. And so it’s one thing to go through a suffering for a short period of time. Someone has like a broken foot and then they recover.

And it’s another situation for someone when you’re in it for the long haul. And so that’s what I really wanted to address today on the podcast is like, how do we keep going when we know that there’s going to be some type of pain, whether that’s physical pain. Or more so for our listeners, like a mental and emotional pain that they’re dealing with.

I think a lot of people who are suffering are ask why. In my situation, I’ve been through some sufferings, whether that’s been like loss of my foster children, loss of my parents at what I consider to be a younger age, and I haven’t really necessarily found the question of why to be helpful. It’s almost like this sidewalk that just cuts off and ends, it hasn’t necessarily gone anywhere for me.

Is that something that you’ve seen just in your own suffering or dealing with other people who are suffering?

John: It’s a good question because it can wear you down over time. We hear the saying that it’s more of a marathon than a sprint, and I think when you’re dealing with something, you have to pace yourself.

Realize that you just take it one day at a time. Don’t look too far in the future and don’t try to take on too much too quickly. I think that has helped me to deal with my situation. My attitude has been, I just thank God I’m alive today. I get to live today, and if I can focus on today, it makes a huge difference.

I don’t have to think about what treatment may be coming up down the road or et cetera, et cetera. I’ve also noticed that people that may support us, maybe it’s family, friends, people at our church. Life group or Sunday school class, they don’t know how to deal most of the time with a long-term situation, if it’s a disease or a struggle, if, like you said, if you broke your foot or you’re gonna be in the hospital for a surgery, everybody’s good to go.

Pray for that, and you get better quickly and you’re through the surgery. And then. You’re on the way to healing. I have found that people don’t really understand and they don’t know how to deal with a long-term cancer like I have. So I understand that and I try not to get offended or feel like they don’t care, but they’re good at praying for things for a short period of time, and we all are.

I’m the same way. And so I’ve chosen to focus on, this is a part of my life. I’m not gonna expect people to continually be praying for me or asking me about it or whatever. And that’s okay with me. I’m fine to move on from that ’cause I don’t wanna focus on it all the time. But I think some people might get discouraged with a long-term challenge because even their best friends are probably not gonna be consistent to be asking them constantly about it or.

Know how to deal with it, and maybe they don’t know how to even understand how something could keep going on. It’s kinda like, well, we prayed for it. We’ve talked about it. It’s time to move on. But there’s certain things in life you just can’t do that with. It’s not only maybe patients with ourselves, but patients with our friends and our support group as well.

Carrie: Yeah, I have had different people tell me that I’ve been through deliverance ministry for my OCD, or I’ve had people in the church lay hands on me. I’ve begged God for healing from this situation, and it can be really hard when that doesn’t come or when other people don’t know how to respond to you.

Like in the midst of continued suffering.

John: Yes, I noticed that with my friends, my closest friends, they reached out. In a major way when they first found out about my diagnosis, but then when I didn’t die quickly and I kept moving forward, they didn’t know what to do. We don’t really talk about it a whole lot more, which is fine with me, but you still need your close confidants that you can share if there’s updating your situation or if it’s OCD and you’re having an episode that you really need to talk to somebody about, or with me, if I have a situation with my medical.

Team, that team, I need to discuss with someone. You still need those people to go to, but it’s different with a long-term illness. It really is. It’s a different scenario and who knows why. God allows us to have some things that we just don’t get over completely or we get somewhat better, but. It’s never fully healed.

I guess that’s what heaven is for really. There’s certain things in our lives that may not heal until we get to heaven, and that’s okay, but it’s very difficult to understand. It’s not a formula. We prayed for it. We went to this seminar, we did this, and all of a sudden it’s fixed. That’s just not always.

In real life.

Carrie: Yeah. Talk to me about your perspective on heaven now. How has that changed?

John: Heaven and death is a lot more exciting to me now than it ever was before, and I hope that doesn’t sound too weird, but I’m not afraid to die. I’m ready to go at any time. I think I had some fear before I had a terminal cancer diagnosis, but I had to face that I might die and that I might die fairly quickly.

We didn’t know how aggressive the blood cancer was gonna be. It’s so individual with different people. I chose to accept that this could be it for me. I may not be around that long once I accepted. I guess the worst thing technically that could happen is it kills me. It’s amazing the freedom that I had.

Mm-hmm. After that. And don’t worry about it anymore. Things that scare other people don’t scare me. I, I know I was telling somebody, this is a really strange situation too, but I was with the police officer that I know and we were eating in a restaurant, and police officers tend to always like to sit.

With their backs away from the door so they can watch the door. ’cause they’re trained to always watch and be on guard and everything. And I told this police officer, this is gonna sound weird to you, but I said, if somebody came in here and started shooting at us, I would certainly try to defend us and I would do anything I can.

And I certainly hope that doesn’t happen. But if they shoot me, I’m really not worried about it. I’ve gotten another day of life. And maybe it’s just, it gets down to gratefulness too, of what you do have. Because you realize you could lose it all, and I was prepared for that. So every day that I get is such a blessing that I’m freer now.

I have more joy now than I had before, but I’m not cured. I’m like a lot of your listeners, I’m not fit right? My situation has not gone away. It’s just that I’ve learned to be thankful for what I can do and what I do have, and that even if this cancer never gets cured. That’s okay. It’s still a blessing every day of life that I have.

Carrie: Yeah, I like this verse in Corinthians four 17 for this light, momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. And I think sometimes we look at our life and we say, okay, this is not light momentary affliction. This feels really heavy. And really hard right now, but it’s like the word tells us that the sufferings that we’re going through right now are gonna prepare us for one day.

There’s gonna be no suffering at all, and only joy. I remember after my husband got diagnosed with his neurological condition, and I remember looking at him one day, we were talking, somehow it came up in small group about heaven. And he, prior to diagnosis, had an active life where he was skateboarding and we were hiking together and he’s done all these physical things and I said, do you ever think about running again?

Like do you think about like running in heaven? And it was interesting. Sometimes he’ll have dreams even about things that he used to be able to do, like surfing or running or things like that. And I just. Think that that’s kind of a, a beautiful picture, that we know that there’s hope on the other side, and no one knows how long we have, but we know that our end destination is good.

John: Somebody told me one time, we pray for people, just talk about people that have some kind of sickness and we pray for them and ask God to heal them. And I had never thought about this, but some people he chooses to heal by taking them to heaven. Yeah, and it was a whole different concept for me when I started thinking about that because I’ve always thought, well, you know, God needs to heal this person, but then he lets them die, but he heals them by taking them on to heaven, which is the ultimate healing.

And so either way, it’s gonna work out great for us, whether we’re healed on this side of heaven, just like anxiety, OCD, whatever somebody’s dealing with. They may not get completely healed on this side of heaven, but they will be healed when they go and meet Jesus face to face in heaven. If they’ve accepted him as their Lord and their savior, the healing is gonna happen.

And something else that I’ve realized is that every person that Jesus healed. His ministry eventually died. Wow. Yeah. He didn’t heal them and they never had any other sickness as far as we know. They all died. And so even if we get healed from something, then still there’s gonna be death in some way.

Whether in a, a physical death, and I know some of your listeners may not be dealing with a physical illness or it may manifest itself physically, but maybe it’s emotionally or. Mentally in some ways that are, you know, that’s blocking them. But everybody has things that they’re struggling with and some of us get healing for a period of time, but eventually we’re all gonna die anyway.

I guess when you think about things that way, it gives you more patience to not have to have everything fixed right now. I mean, our bodies, as we get older, they break down more, just things happen. So it’s okay that people don’t get everything fixed in their life. None of us are perfect if we can grow some and get somewhat better.

I think we have to embrace that and just realize that we’re human beings.

Carrie: It’s interesting. I think a lot of what you’re talking about is perspective. You could have the perspective of, I get outta bed today and I have terminal cancer and I’m going to die. Oh, that’s awful. And I don’t want to do that. And almost like this internal fight against.

Where you’re at. But you’re saying, I wake up every day and I’m like, Hey, God gave me another day. How can I make a difference for him or love people better? Tell us a little bit about that. Like I’m reading this book called On Getting Outta Bed, and it basically says we all have to answer this question of why we getting outta bed in the morning, even on the, the really hard days.

Mm-hmm. When we don’t wanna get out of bed, we’re sick, we’re suffering, we’re in pain. We think, is this ever gonna end for you? How would you answer that question? Like, why do you get out of bed in the morning?

John: I know that God has left me on this earth for a purpose, and one of the purposes is to be a witness for him and to people.

I feel like he’s called me to be an encourager that motivate, pray and ask God people that I can be witness to, give people that I can encourage each and every day. One of the things that I deal with is fatigue. I have some pretty extreme fatigue because of all of the treatment I’ve been on for all these years.

And the maintenance treatment that I’m still on, it causes a lot of fatigue. So I can’t do the things I used to do. And you’re talking about your husband, Steve. My abilities are drastically reduced from what I could do seven years ago. Not just because of my age, but because of all the treatment and drugs that have gone into my body to help kill this cancer, to help keep it down, to help me survive.

And so there’s been a cost paid for that. I don’t have the energy, so I have to focus more. And when I get up in the morning, I’m not just jumping out of bed like I was a few years ago. Now it’s more difficult and the fatigue hits me about midday and it’s difficult for me to make it push through the rest of the day.

So it’s not easy. But I think what does motivate me is I still have a purpose. I could just say, well, gosh, I’m just too tired. So like doing anything. And some days there are definitely days like that when I have to just rest. So I’m not saying we don’t have those times when we have to step back, but there is the motivation that I’m alive today so I can be a blessing to somebody and for myself.

I’ve got a new platform to encourage people. ’cause when they find out I do have a cancer diagnosis, it does seem to help them to get things more in perspective because I think, well, gosh, what am I complaining about? This guy’s got a terminal cancer. It’s a platform just like your husband, Steve, how motivating he’s to people.

Because he doesn’t let his disease and his physical challenges get him defeated. That can really inspire people. But I also have to, I was talking about pacing yourself earlier. I have to pace myself. I can’t do as much or reach as many people, or I don’t have the energy to see as many people or whatever the opportunity may be today.

So I have to prioritize more, but I still have those things every day that I wanna do, and I wanna make a difference. And God does use me. I believe in some capacity every day. That’s really a neat opportunity. So it keeps me wanting to get up ’cause I know he’s not done with me yet. He may have slowed me down some with allowing me to get this cancer and the treatments I’ve been through, but he’s still using me.

Matter of fact, he’s probably using me more than he ever has. It’s just I have to prioritize more and maybe more impact less volume in that I can’t do as many things. But I think with some of the things that I’m able to do. There’s more impact than I did have before. I’ve been through this last seven year battle with cancer.

Carrie: Yeah, we’ve got you on the volume ’cause you’re going out to lots and lots of countries right now. So we have people that listen on Australia and the UK and Canada and America, of course. Uh, all over the place, so, oh, awesome. Yeah, I think this is very encouraging. I think focusing in on today and the moment and really asking God, okay, what is your purpose or will or who do I need to reach out to today?

Who do I need to encourage? And I think all of that is great. And I see we can, in our pain, we have like two options. We can go really inward and focus on ourselves and say, this is awful. Why me? I can’t believe that I’m having to go through this. I’m frustrated, like you said, angry with God. Why would God allow this in my life?

Or we can accept that it’s here and say, okay, I heard somebody say, instead of asking why, ask what. Okay, what are you doing, God? What are how and how? How are you going to use this? For your good and your glory. Like that’s what, uh, Romans 8 28 tells us. So I think that those are questions that people can lean into in the hard times.

We know that Romans five, three through five tells us that we rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character. And character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame because God’s love has been poured into our hearts. Through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us in the beginning of James.

It also uses that word endurance when it talks about having joy in various times of trials. Tell us a little bit about your thoughts and perspectives on endurance on keeping going.

John: I was gonna refer to that verse in James when it also breaks out and it says, and let Endurance have its perfect work.

That verse has really spoke to me a lot because that’s why I think we go through something and why we don’t try to avoid it with challenges. Because if you let endurance have its perfect work, in other words, don’t try to run from. Try to embrace it, see what God’s gonna teach you for it, from it through it, that gives you that perfect work of Christ where he uses that to the Nth degree and you don’t wanna waste any of it.

You don’t wanna waste any of that endurance that you learn because that is what gets you through the hard times in life. If you can continue to jump back in there. And I’ve found that what I have learned with cancer. Of you deal with it every day. You go through the fatigue, you go through the treatment, but you just keep on rolling.

You don’t let it knock you off. Of course, some days are tougher than others, but you just continue to move forward. And as I’ve done that, I’ve found that other challenges in my life are really not that difficult for the most part because I’ve learned so much. Of endurance and keeping on. Keeping on and not letting this get the best of me, and keeping your attitude where it needs to be.

One that serves Christ and one that trust in him. It has taught me and is still teaching me in ways that help me in other areas of my life. But. You do have to let endurance have its perfect work. I’ve mentioned on the podcast before that when I went through a stem cell transplant, I was nauseous for 30 days straight in the hospital, and that was very discouraging.

After about two weeks of not wanting to eat anything. Anything that resemble food made me think of, of being sick. I just didn’t enjoy it at all. I went through that and I mean, what was I gonna do? I couldn’t give up, right? I had to keep going and I had to just force down some food because I had to eat enough where I could survive, even though I was losing weight.

And I finally found I could eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I may have mentioned that last time. Yeah, it was the one thing that didn’t completely make me sick to my stomach, so I tried to eat some of those and it finally gotta, where that’s about all I ate is to survive. I remember talking to the doctors, I’m like, how long does this go on?

They said, well, it doesn’t normally go quite this long, but we’re not really sure when it’s gonna stop. I’m like, oh my, and this like day 29. I was like, okay, this has been a long time. You know what, four weeks? And they don’t know when it’s gonna stop. It’s miserable. Every time they mention breakfast, lunch or dinner.

It just a horrible thing for me. Yet I was losing weight and I was eating what I could. It was just not a pleasant experience, and I didn’t know that the 30th day was gonna be the last day of that day. 31. Yeah, out of nowhere. All of a sudden I wanted to eat again. In that situation, I didn’t have a whole lot of choice, but I had to let endurance have its perfect work.

But that 30 day period was a long grind for me. I think a lot of times God allows us to go through those long grinding times. We don’t know when the end’s in sight. We don’t know when things are gonna get better, but wouldn’t it have been a shame if I had completely given up on day 29 or day 30, because then the next day I was gonna get my appetite back and things were gonna get much, much better.

I remember too, after I had the stem cell for a good while after, if I ate any food from a restaurant, it had to be put in the oven. At a certain temperature for 30 minutes. And so the food was already cooked. When somebody would pick it up for me from the restaurant and we had to put it in the oven for 30 minutes and just baked it to a crisp because they had to kill every possible germ, and it just wasn’t good.

It kind of ruined it. But eventually I got through that and then I could. Eat food that was from the restaurant without having to worry about that. For the longest time, I couldn’t go out to lunch, and this was during COVID and all too, but even before and after that, because of my condition, my immune system was so weak I couldn’t be around people very much.

And I thought, man, I wish I could go to lunch. I think for two years I couldn’t go out to lunch and be around people and now I can go out to lunch. It’s like I did get through it. Every now and then I have to pinch myself and remember how good it is that I can’t eat, that I do have an appetite. Remember how good it is that I don’t have to overcook my food to try to kill all the germs and remember what a blessing it is that I can go out to lunch and sit with my wife or.

A friend or a family member and not have to worry about, oh my gosh, if I catch anything, I’m gonna die. Some of it is maybe looking back on the things that God has brought us through and reminding ourselves because I like everybody. I forget those things, but I hadn’t even thought about those things in a good while until we were just disgusted.

So. What a blessing it is that I can go out to lunch. Yeah. And things like that. A lot of people take for granted. I know I’ve talked to people that have foot surgeries and ankle surgeries and things like that, and we talk about how, gosh, you never realize what a blessing it is to be able to walk until you can’t.

And you’ve got all your body weight on this part that is extremely sore or broken or whatever. And I know Steve, your husband deals with some of that. We forget how blessed we’re. So if we can think about those kind of things, it kind of overwhelmed. The downside. And I think praising God and thanking him is always an antidote for depression.

I’ve gotten knocked down with this situation, but I can’t say I’ve really gotten depressed or stayed down. And I think the real key is not anything super that I do other than just I’ve gotta turn to praising God for what I do have. As somebody once said, find the good and praise it. And I’d say find the good and praise God for that good.

That will eliminate. And if you look at it, you don’t have to look very far to find somebody that’s a whole lot worse off than you are. Number one, and you don’t have to look very far to see a ton of blessings. You may have some challenges and you’ll have them because we all do. But if you look at all the blessings that you have to go with that challenge, God’s not gonna just give us the dirty laundry.

He gives us some wonderful, beautiful things. To go with it as well. And some of those things we wouldn’t have gotten. Some of the beauty we would not have received had we not had the hard stuff to go with it.

Carrie: Yeah. I mean, I can just remember times like going through my divorce and I’d go outside and like a flower would be blooming and that would mean a lot to me in that moment.

It was like the beauty of God, just like my life felt so. And then there’s this flower would be coming out of the ground. And it just allowed me to appreciate all the small things. And you were talking about looking backwards and recognizing like how far God has taken you out of specific situations. And I think it was very recently that I said to Steve, I said, do you remember that I had a young baby And people were telling me, your husband’s gonna be in a wheelchair.

Like you need to prepare now and understand like that this is gonna happen. I said that was so scary, obviously, and he lived in this crazy split level where there was no way to do wheelchair in that house and just housing market. Anyway, God’s been faithful to us along that journey to be in a different place now, and also that he’s not in a wheelchair.

That he’s actually walking really well right now, and I can only explain that via God and the work that he’s done in his life, and Steve’s positive attitude and willing to keep walking and keep going and keep moving. But he said, you know, Kerry, they weren’t wrong to tell you that. They just didn’t know, like no one knew.

They were just trying to prepare you for the worst case scenario. But we’re just thankful every day that he can walk with a cane and that he can get around. We feel very, very blessed that he’s involved in our daughter’s life. When we thought he was losing his eyesight, and I said, we were just praying that you were gonna be able to see your daughter born.

I mean, God’s brought us so far and we have to live day by day in a different way than you do, but we still just try to take things one step at a time.

John: Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, I think a lot of times that a lot of things that we worry about or dread never happen, or they happen and they’re better than we thought they would be.

I mean, like for me, I mean my cancer, I would never have envisioned that I would be doing as well as I am today. Seven years ago, I didn’t think I would be here, number one, and I sure didn’t think I would be doing as well as I’m now, have I had struggles? Yes. Is the fatigue rough? Yes. I mean, there’s some challenging parts to it.

It’s certainly not a party, but it really is a party compared to what I thought it was gonna be because I knew what, how bad it could get, and I knew that it did get that bad with some people and with this disease, it’s amazing. Like I said, I think we waste a lot of energy and a lot of time maybe dreading things that never happen and so.

Very thankful. I did have, uh, one friend that was in the hospital with me when I got my stem cell transplant. He died in the room beside me. Wow. Had the same cancer I had, and we had gotten to be friends and he was going through the treatment and he died and they couldn’t save him. And that really was a shocker to me.

I was like, I’ve got the same thing he has. Well, God didn’t have the same plan. He took him on home and healed him in a different way. He was a strong Christian man, but if I had thought that was gonna happen to me and dreaded it, I would’ve wasted a lot of time being miserable when I’ve actually been unbelievably blessed to be able to do all I’ve been able to do.

So we can’t figure out God, that’s for sure. And we don’t need to. I think there’s some unique things in our suffering and our challenges and our problems and our conditions or diseases that we have that can really open up a lot of beauty in life and allow us to be used more than we would otherwise. To bless other people.

To be a witness to other people, to encourage other people, and certainly just to give us joy. It can help us not take life for granted as much. If everything went great all the time, would we seek God? Probably not. And would we find as much joy? Probably not. I think when you struggle and you go through some tough times, it makes you appreciate the good times and you also appreciate that God was with you through those hard times.

I can look back. I know he was with me every second through this whole cancer process, even when I felt like, golly, what’s going on here? He needed the future. He had a plan and it was a good plan. That’s true for each one of us.

Carrie: Steve knew that I was gonna be talking to you today and he said, John is on a mission to take as many people to heaven with him.

Do you feel that way?

John: I definitely would love to do that. One of the things that I do a lot is I’m a Gideon with the Gives out the Bibles, and so I try to keep New Testament Bibles with me all the time, and I’ve just gotten more bold at approaching people and talking to them about the Bible and about God’s plan of salvation and giving them that and encouraging them to follow Christ because one thing I don’t really worry as much about what people think after I’ve kind of faced death.

I’m not in a popularity contest anymore. I’m more of, I want other people to know Christ because. Having faced death, I know that it’s coming to all of us and I’ve gotten a little closer than I wanted to get to it. I know it’s a serious thing and I know it could come to anyone at any time, and I just feel like if I’m gonna be here, whether it’s another day or another week or another year or another, 10 years or more, I really wanna be about doing God’s work and reaching out with the love of Christ and with his gospel.

Because the main thing is we wanna be healed spiritually and we want people to know Jesus. The next thing is gonna be the healing physically and mentally and emotionally, but we’re all gonna die. So when we do die, are we gonna go and be with Jesus forever? And then if we get that right, he can help us with all the other things as well.

And it doesn’t mean though, that everything’s gonna go great, doesn’t mean we don’t have a lot of struggles, but we just keep getting back in there and. God has been so tenacious with all of us reaching out to us and loving us over and over, and I have failed him. I dunno how many millions or hundreds of millions of times in my lifetime.

Uh, but he still loves me. He still reaches out to me. He still cares for me. He still makes a way for me, and he does that for each of us. It’s such a gift. I want other people to know Christ, and I know your husband’s the same way too. He’s on mission trips constantly and reaching out. But I definitely feel a call that time is of the essence.

There’s a sense of urgency, especially me. I don’t know how long I’ll be alive. I’m fine with that. I’m not worried about it, but I wanna make. Every day count because when it’s all said and done, I really want to have been used for the Lord and we’ve all wasted time. I’ve wasted time. I’ve wasted years where I could have been closer to the Lord.

I could have been used more. I was focused on different things, just selfish things. But I think at this point in my life, I don’t wanna waste any time. I know. The main thing is for people to know Christ and to experience his love, and that’s the best thing I could give him. It’s very important for me to be focused on Christ and yeah, try to lead as many people to him as I can.

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast with me again. I think this is gonna be good for our listeners to hear and definitely prompt some thoughts within them.

John: Thank you. I hope that something I said, maybe God uses in some way to encourage somebody, but if anybody’s out there that thinks they wanna give up or they’re tired of trying, I can tell you God has a plan that he will bless you and he will work things out and he has a good plan for you.

You may not know what it’s gonna be. I don’t know that any of us know exactly what God’s plan’s gonna be, but we can know that it’s gonna be good ’cause he promises that.

Carrie: I just wanna say that this episode was so impactful to me personally that I kept chewing on it in the hours and days following the interview.

I was thinking about this combination of spiritual truth and things that we learned from secular counseling, and I was thinking about how. John’s story relates to what we learn in acceptance and commitment therapy, how he accepted his cancer diagnosis, even though obviously it wasn’t something that anyone would want, he accepted This has been ordained by God, and God is going to use this in my life and in the lives of others.

Then he is taking committed actions to move towards his values. He’s living in the moment. These are all different acceptance and commitment therapy principles that are helpful for us spiritually in our relationship with God to remain in the present moment and what he has for us right now in the here and now.

How can I love people today? How can I serve God today? How can I fulfill what he’s asking me to do in the here and now? And how these spiritual practices help us psychologically, because when we’re not super future focused, that oftentimes reduces our anxiety to be more in the present moment. And when we’re not borrowing distress from the past, that reduces a certain level of distress.

Acceptance and commitment therapy would tell people to take the suffering with you, so to speak, and as you’re moving towards your values, so. If you believe that God has called you, for example, to go on a mission trip and you say, oh, but no, I have OCD, I can’t do that. Acceptance and commitment therapy would say, you know, take that OCD with you.

It may be a struggle, but if that’s something that you value, that’s important that God wants you to do, know that you can move in that direction even if you’re continuing to struggle. If you wanna hear more about acceptance and commitment therapy, you can scroll way back to episode 65, where I had Ingrid or on to talk about this.

She has written a book about acceptance and commitment therapy from a Christian worldview. I’m so glad that you tuned in today. If this episode blessed you and impacted you, will you consider sending it to a fellow brother or sister in Christ who can benefit from hearing these encouraging words?

Regardless of whether or not they’re struggling with OCD, I think there are so many people who could benefit from hearing this. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith in OCD is a production of by the well. Counseling opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or by the Well counseling.

This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

216. How Do I Know I’m Saved?

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie dives into why salvation doubts can feel so real for Christians with scrupulosity and how OCD can pull believers into convincing fear-based stories about their faith.

Episode Highlights:

• Why salvation doubts can be common among Christians

• How scrupulosity creates fear-based faith narratives

• The difference between grace-based salvation and work-based thinking

• Spiritual seasons and why feelings of closeness with God change

• Understanding the OCD bubble through Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT)

Episode Summary: 

What if I’m not really saved?

For many Christians, this question can feel incredibly unsettling. If you struggle with scrupulosity or religious OCD, those doubts can become even louder and harder to ignore.

In OCD treatment, we often talk about the obsessional story, which is the way OCD builds a narrative in your mind using bits of truth, imagination, and fear.

Before you realize what is happening, you may find yourself pulled into OCD bubble, where everything feels urgent and emotionally real.

This conversation explores what that process can look like and why it often feels so convincing.

Why Some Christians Question Their Salvation

There are several reasons believers begin questioning their salvation, even when they genuinely love God.

Sometimes it happens because someone was saved at a young age and later wonders if they truly understood what they were doing.

Other times it comes from comparing your faith story to someone else’s.

You might also question your faith during seasons when you do not feel close to God or when you are struggling with ongoing sin.

These experiences are more common than many people realize, and we take a closer look at some of the reasons these doubts surface.

The Role OCD Can Play in Spiritual Doubt

For people dealing with religious OCD, faith is often one of the things they care about most. Because of that, OCD can target those beliefs and turn them into intense mental battles.

You may find yourself replaying thoughts, analyzing past experiences, or searching for certainty about your salvation.

OCD has a way of mixing together facts, fears, and past experiences to create a story that feels believable, even when it leads to unnecessary distress.

Understanding this process can be an important step toward finding peace.

A Different Way to Look at Salvation Doubts

Many Christians have been taught that spiritual life should always feel strong and confident. But the reality is that faith journeys include many different seasons.

There are mountaintop moments where you feel deeply connected to God.

There are also quieter or more difficult seasons where things feel dry or uncertain.

We also look at how scrupulosity and OCD can influence these fears and how understanding the reasoning process behind those thoughts can help you begin moving forward.

Along the way, there are reminders about the nature of salvation and the role of God’s grace in our lives.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

Ephesians 2:8–9

Romans 10:9

Romans 8:15–17

If you have ever wrestled with questions about your salvation or felt trapped in spiritual doubt, this conversation is for you.

Tune in to this episode to explore navigating salvation doubts with faith and wisdom.

Transcript

Today we’re talking about, “How do I know that I’m saved?” And I’ve really struggled to put this episode together because I didn’t want it to be just some kind of giant reassurance-seeking fest for people. However, I know that this is a big question that many Christians with OCD are wrestling with. Even if you don’t have OCD, lots of Christians have some everyday doubts about whether or not they’re saved.

The problem is that if you have a religious form of OCD called scrupulosity, it can take these everyday doubts and blow them up into a giant horror movie in your brain where you’re separated from God forever. And in inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, we talk a lot about the obsessional story and how these doubts don’t just exist in isolation. They draw you into a storyline, and the plot is based on a mixture of fact and fiction. So there’s real emotion that gets laden onto these things. And even though you’re being led into an imaginary worst-case-scenario outcome, you don’t necessarily realize that you’re going into the imagination. You’re crossing over this imaginary bridge into what we call the OCD bubble.

Once you’re in the bubble, it’s very hard to recognize that you’re in the bubble. Everything feels real and scary, and it doesn’t feel quite safe to stay in that place, but it also feels really irresponsible, or it doesn’t feel okay, to leave.

Let’s talk for a moment about why people have doubts about their salvation. So for some people, they doubt their salvation because maybe they were saved really young. Maybe they don’t have a full memory of the experience. Maybe they remember it, but they feel like, you know, there were a lot of pieces spiritually that I just didn’t understand. And to that, I would say, of course there are things that we’re going to understand at a different level when we’re an adult than when we were a child. But did your child self understand it on a child level?

Other people would say, well, I’ve been listening to other Christians, and they have these dramatic testimonies, these extreme conversion experiences. They were using drugs before, and they didn’t care anything about God. They were an atheist. And then God met them somehow, and they knew it was Him, and now they’re not using drugs, and they are fully devoted to Jesus and telling everyone else about Him. And sometimes when you hear drastic and dramatic testimonies like that, it can cause you, if you don’t have one of those, to think, well, did I have a real experience? Am I really a Christian? So I think that’s why some people doubt.

Each person’s experience with the Lord is different in our meeting with Jesus. You can even see that with Jesus’ disciples. There were some that were kind of like, “Hey, come and meet Jesus. Come and see what’s happening.” And then you have, of course, Paul on the road to Damascus, and he has a dramatic conversion experience.

Maybe you don’t have a specific day or time that you can point to in regard to when you decided to follow Jesus. Maybe it was a gradual process. Over time, you slowly started to engage in spiritual practices, and at some point along that line, you made that decision each and every day to get up and to follow Jesus, to be His disciple. And I think people who have that version of their story struggle because they hear other people say, “Well, I know I was saved on June the first in 1985, and that was the day that I gave my life to Christ.” And so someone who has a more gradual conversion story may really struggle, like, is my experience real?

You may doubt your salvation by saying, “You know what? I just don’t feel close to God.” We’ve talked about this on the podcast before, that I do believe feelings are important. I don’t believe that we should just dismiss everything that we feel. We have to find this balance of our feelings do provide some helpful information for us sometimes. And there were certainly emotions that led me to start this podcast, whether those were sadness, deep empathy, and a little bit of anger about maybe easy answers in the Christian community. And all of that was very helpful for me and propelled me to do something positive after having that emotional experience.

So when we talk about, “I don’t feel close to God,” this is somewhat nebulous. Because you think about the other relationships in your life, whether it’s a parent or a spouse or a best friend, there may be times that you feel really close and connected to that person, and then there may be other times where you don’t feel as close and connected, but you know that you love them. You know that you care for them. You know that you wouldn’t want anything negative to happen to them, that you would want to rush to their aid if they needed you. So we can have that sense of love for God even if we don’t feel close to Him right now.

Sometimes people will say as part of their obsessional story, “Well, I don’t feel the same way that I did when I got saved.” I think you could ask a lot of married people, “Do you still feel the same way that you did the day that you got married?” That is a mountaintop, exciting experience, full of love. You’re surrounded by lots of friends and family. It’s a beautiful thing, but we may not feel that same exact way two years later. That doesn’t mean that we don’t love our spouse. It just means we’re in a different season right now, and we have different seasons spiritually.

We have these mountaintop experiences with God. Think about when you are a teenager going to youth camp, if that was part of your experience. Everyone’s so excited about God, and they’re like, “Yes, I totally want to follow Him and live for Him the rest of my life, and I want to tell all my friends about Jesus.” And then slowly that starts to fade as you get back into the real world, and some of that is just normal. So don’t allow OCD to use these types of things as evidence that you’re not saved or that you don’t love God.

We just recently, in January, went through a period of prayer and fasting with our church. I would say that was a recent mountaintop experience for me. It was exciting. We just saw some answered prayer, very profoundly felt close to God, very connected in prayer. We had a lot of corporate gatherings of prayer early in the morning. It was cold, but we went there. It was just a beautiful time.

And then February hit, and even toward the end of January and into February, it was like my family was super sick. Just things were very different going on there, right? It’s a different experience, not feeling maybe as connected or as close to God. We still love God. We’re still participating in spiritual activities. We’re still reading our Bible. We’re still praying. It’s just a harder season because we went through a lot of sickness and didn’t feel good, had some rough weather. It was a rough winter this winter, but that’s okay. Spring is here or coming.

There are also times in your spiritual journey, or I’ve experienced this as well, where you’re going through immense suffering. You’re sad, you’re depressed, you don’t even know if you want to get out of bed. What is the point of all this? Why am I here? And those are the valley experiences that we have spiritually. Those are the desert seasons.

There’s a song that I really love called Desert Song, and it’s been around a while, but it’s really just kind of followed me through different hard seasons of my life. I’ll put that song back on, and the whole idea behind it is I’m going to praise God regardless of the season that’s going on in my life. When things feel really dry and empty and lonely and dark, God is still here. God is still worthy of praise.

You may doubt your salvation if you’re struggling with an ongoing sin. And this is something that we talked about in the confession and repentance episode, so I encourage you to flip back to that one and listen to it. It’s really good. And we talk about how the struggle that you’re going through shows that you are battling with sin and can confirm to yourself that you are a believer, that you are connected to God, because you are actively working toward eradicating that sin out of your life. That struggle means that you’re a work in progress, that God is still working on you and in you, and that you are still partnering with the Holy Spirit in that sanctification process.

The final reason for salvation doubts that I want to talk about is that people have bought into a works-based salvation. They’re depending on what they are doing and determining whether or not that’s good enough for God. And it’s interesting because I’ve talked with many people who have these doubts, and they will say, “Well, yeah, I know that’s not the gospel, but I feel like this.”

So I want to share that all of these things that we’ve talked about are all things that OCD uses as part of the obsessional story to draw you in and cause you to believe something that’s not true. And so it’s helpful for us to know that because if we know that, and we know these potential contributions to the obsessional story, other potential contributions may be people that you know who have walked away from the faith. That may be a huge contribution to some of this. “Well, I thought that they were really dedicated, and they walked away from the faith, and so what does that mean about me?”

Feelings of inadequacy, of feeling bad about yourself, can cause you to feel like, yeah, the Scripture promises and Word are for everyone else. Somehow I’m outside of that. That’s not really for me. This is very common in scrupulosity.

Oftentimes, I’m running into people that have read the Bible, they’ve studied the Scriptures, they’ve been under the teaching. They’ve done their fair share of Googling about their spiritual doubt process. And what we know is that OCD does use specific facts. It uses personal experience. It uses hearsay, the things that we’ve heard about other people. It uses news articles. All of these things are thrown into this obsessional story, and we can write a convincing story and make it sound really believable, and we can put fear in there or anticipation. And that can cause people to feel real emotions.

So that’s why they might say, “I know that this doesn’t make sense, but I also know that it feels real,” and it gets very, very confusing internally, right? That’s what OCD does. Because there’s this blend of fact and fictional elements, it seems like it’s true. It stirs up a lot of emotion, and you get stuck in that fear.

Really, the way out of that is by being able to examine that story differently, recognize the thinking errors that are happening, not to challenge the negative thoughts, but to recognize the reasoning process that got you there in the first place. If you can recognize the obsessional reasoning process that got you there in the first place, then you can work your way backward to untangle that obsessional reasoning process so that you can get out of the OCD bubble.

And this is what inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, teaches you how to do. You learn all of these different pieces. You learn about the reasons for the obsessional doubt, the obsessional story, what going into the bubble is like, and then what are the doorways out of that bubble so that you can get back to what’s actually happening in the here and now.

When we look at salvation at a very basic level, God has a part, and we have a part. God is the main character, the major player in the story. We have a minor part in accepting the gift. Salvation is based on the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. It is not based on what we have done. It’s not based on what we did before we were saved. It’s not based on what we’ve done since we’ve been saved.

Ephesians 2:8 and 9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

If salvation is not based on earning God’s merit, then that means that we don’t need to strive for God’s love and approval. Our part of the equation, that’s very small, is to believe in what Jesus has done for us and to trust in the work of the cross of Christ.

Romans 10:9: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

This can be something that’s really hard for a lot of Christians with OCD to understand and accept. Salvation is not based on you and your behavior. Salvation is based on what God has done for us, and that’s a beautiful thing because if I can’t do anything to earn it, that also means that I’m not going to do something to mess it up.

If I am seeking God on a day-to-day basis, if I am involved and engaged with my faith, then you’re not just going to mysteriously, magically, somehow, maybe kind of walk away someday. That is a fear based in OCD and what OCD is telling you, all kinds of things that you’re going to lose your relationship with God, telling you that you’re going to walk away from the faith. It may tell you that you’re outside of the family of God, that you can’t really truly know if you’re saved. And understand that this OCD story, it comes with a lot of fear dumped on top of it. That fear makes the OCD story feel so real and so believable. But the problem is that it’s not. This is a lie, and you have to be able to identify, how in the world did I get into this reasoning process?

And I understand, as someone who grew up and felt like a lot of my sanctification, this process of becoming more like Christ, I thought this is all up to me and I’ve got to work really hard and I’ve got to check the boxes and I’ve got to do the right thing and I’ve got to be very conscientious. And I did all of that when I was younger and in my twenties. And you know what? It was exhausting.

Not only was it exhausting because there was so much effort that I felt like I was trying to put forth, there really wasn’t joy in my spiritual practices. And what I learned when life hit me on the backside and I went through suffering and came to a different understanding and realization of who God is and my relationship with Him, I recognized that if I can’t save myself, then I also don’t have that ability to do all this effort to make myself more like Christ. That has to be a partnership between me and the Holy Spirit as I am daily surrendering to God’s work in my life, as I am denying myself and taking up my cross every single day.

So I want to tell you that our salvation is not based on feelings, that you may or may not feel close to God right now. That doesn’t affect the truth of the situation, that you are saved based on what Jesus did in dying for you on the cross. You may feel like God isn’t there or God has abandoned you, but I want you to hear that He loves you very much and went all the way to give His Son for us in order to have a relationship with us. If that doesn’t speak volumes to you, I don’t know what will.

I think, unfortunately, we have become so desensitized to this salvation story, and we know all the quote-right answers as Christians. The joke is that the Sunday school answer is always Jesus. Whatever the question is, the Sunday school answer is, “It’s Jesus.” And so we can recite to ourselves, “Well, I know salvation is through grace, and I know Jesus died on the cross for me.” And then there’s this gigantic “but”—I’m emphasizing that word. It’s like, “But I feel…” is usually what comes next, or, “But I have this thought…” to that such-and-such. And you really have to do some work, and I encourage you to do some work, to unravel that thought process, unravel that feeling process, figure out where that story has come from.

And I’ve talked about this before, but oftentimes we’re putting things on God that we have received from other people in our life, or we are putting this perspective of who God is based on maybe some harsh church teachings that you might have experienced, judgmental believers in the church. There are all kinds of different ways that our view of God is formed. Most early and often, it’s our parents and how they respond to us, how they respond to us emotionally, how they respond to us in discipline situations, and then how they speak to us about God. And that certainly affects how we view God.

The last thing that I want to talk with you about is this concept that I’ve been rolling around in my mind that I refer to as spiritual sense data. Now, ICBT tells us that we have a variety of senses that we use in our environment on a normal everyday, day-to-day basis. So we have our five senses, we have our common sense, we have this sense of self, the real person who we really are. We also have internal senses. Those would be things like beliefs, desires, feelings, emotions. And if we are able to tune into all of these senses and trust those senses, that helps you get out of the trap of OCD, get out of that thought spiral.

I really believe that as believers, we have a sense of spiritual sense data if we have the Holy Spirit inside of us, in that Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. This is what Romans 8:15 through 17 says: “For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.” That’s awesome right there. “And if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.”

And that means that we’ve all had some type of experience where our spirit has connected with God’s Spirit. And I would encourage you to really not distrust those experiences that you have. Maybe it’s been a while because OCD has been so loud since you’ve had one of those spiritual experiences. Maybe it’s been a long time ago, but you were out in nature somewhere, or by a beach, or in a worship service, and you really felt the presence of God, or you had some type of spiritual peace or reassurance that God was with you. Maybe it was in a time of deep suffering and you were sorrowfully crying out to God, but God gave you, not all the answers to your problems, but just a sense of presence or a sense of peace.

And understand, I’m saying not all things are about feelings, but if you have these points in your life that I would call anchor points, I would encourage you to tap in and really remember those. Sit with those experiences from a full sensory level. And when you’re able to do that, I think that’s going to help you know that you belong to Christ.

We also know that there is a fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And look, nobody has all of those things all the time. If we were perfect, if we had all the fruit of the Spirit all the time, we must be in heaven. That doesn’t exist on earth. But there are probably some of those things that you can identify. Look, I have become a more loving person since I became a Christian. Due to knowing Christ, I am a more patient person than I would be without Him. There is more kindness flowing out of me than there would be if I didn’t know Jesus. I think you may be able to see certain experiences in your life and say, okay, that’s something, that’s sense data that I can lean into, that shows that I love the Lord.

If you are having spiritual obsessions, the idea that this is something that you value, that OCD attacks, that it attacks your faith because it’s something that’s important to you, and if you’re just constantly wrestling with all of these doubts, I want you to know that there is hope, that there is healing, that I am going to continue to spread these messages that you can receive really great treatment that incorporates your faith, where you don’t feel like you have to either choose therapy or your faith.

If you’re struggling to find a strong Christian counselor in your area, I really encourage you to look into Empowered Mind. This is a course that I have for Christians that’ll teach you ICBT principles from a Christian faith lens. And if that’s something that would be helpful or beneficial to you, you can go to carriebock.com/training to find out more information.

Thank you so much for listening. Please stay tuned with us. Next week, I have an interview with a dear friend, and we’re going to be talking about when the suffering won’t end. He has been living with terminal cancer for seven years, and I think he’s just a wealth of godly wisdom for you. And we’re going to apply it to OCD, and I think you’re going to take a lot out of that episode.

215. Healthy Confession and Repentance With Scrupulosity with Michael Kheir

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie welcomes returning guest Michael Kheir, author of Waging War Against OCD, to discuss forgiveness, repentance, and how Christians with OCD can break free from cycles of fear and guilt in their relationship with God.

Episode Highlight:

  • How scrupulosity twists the meaning of repentance and confession 
  • The difference between Holy Spirit conviction and OCD condemnation 
  • Why obsessive confession often comes from fear rather than faith 
  • How understanding justification vs. sanctification changes the way we view our sin 
  • What the fruit of the Spirit can teach us about recognizing God’s voice
  • How to stop confessing sins that God has already forgiven

Episode Summary:

Why Do I Feel Like I Have to Confess the Same Sin Over and Over?

Many Christians who struggle with scrupulosity deeply desire to honor God. Yet instead of peace, they often find themselves stuck in exhausting cycles of repeated confession, long prayers, and the fear that something may still be wrong between them and God.

In this episode, returning guest Michael Kheir, author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory, joins me for a conversation that many believers quietly wrestle with. If you have ever wondered whether you confessed “correctly” or worried that you might have missed something, this discussion may bring a new perspective.

Does Struggling With Sin Mean My Faith Is Weak?

Some Christians assume that if their faith were strong enough, the battle with sin would disappear.

Yet the apostle Paul described a very real internal struggle in Romans 7, where the desire to do good collided with the reality of human weakness. For someone dealing with OCD, that passage can raise uncomfortable questions.

Is this struggle a sign of failure, or could it actually be evidence that God is at work within you?

How Can I Tell the Difference Between Conviction and OCD Guilt?

For believers with scrupulosity, guilt can feel overwhelming and confusing.

One voice seems urgent, demanding immediate action and repeated confession. Another voice leads toward peace and restoration. Scripture offers important clues about the difference.

In this conversation, Michael shares how he learned to recognize the difference between OCD-driven guilt and the gentle conviction of the Holy Spirit during his own journey with scrupulosity.

Why Do Simple Decisions Suddenly Feel Like Sin?

Scrupulosity has a way of turning everyday choices into spiritual dilemmas.

Small decisions can begin to feel like they carry enormous consequences. A harmless moment can suddenly feel loaded with moral weight. The mind starts searching for hidden mistakes or unintended sins.

When that happens, it can become difficult to trust your own judgment or experience peace in your relationship with God.

Can One Mistake Really Ruin God’s Plan For My Life?

OCD often convinces people that one wrong choice could permanently derail their future or someone else’s.

The mind begins building complicated chains of possibilities where a tiny decision leads to devastating outcomes. But Scripture paints a very different picture of God’s sovereignty and redemption.

What Does Real Repentance Actually Look Like?

For many believers with OCD, repentance can become tangled with shame and fear.

Some people wonder whether they have confessed enough, repented correctly, or truly received forgiveness. Yet Scripture offers a different picture.

Scripture reminds us that when we confess our sins, God is faithful to forgive and cleanse us. He also offers an incredible reassurance that when we do fall short, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ.

Sometimes the hardest step is learning to trust what God has already promised.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

Romans 7:19–25
Romans 8:1
Galatians 5:22–23
1 John 1:9
1 John 2:1
Psalm 103:12
Proverbs 28:13

If this question has ever crossed your mind, hit play on the episode above and listen to the full conversation.

And if you know someone who may be silently struggling with scrupulosity, consider sharing this episode with them today.

Connect with Michael Kheir: wagingwaragainstocd.com

Explore Related Episode:

108. OCD Personal Story with Michael Kheir

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome back, everyone. I am so excited to have Michael Kheir back on the podcast. He is the author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory. You can hear more about Mike’s story back on Episode 184, where he shares about his personal experience with scrupulosity and how he came to write his book to help other Christians who are experiencing similar things.

Mike saw that we were in the scrupulosity series and said, “Hey, I have some things that I’d like to say about this.” So we decided to collaborate on an episode together, which is super fun.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present, abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Welcome back to the show.

Michael: Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me again.

Carrie: Yeah. Today we’re talking about healthy confession and repentance with scrupulosity. This is something that a lot of Christians with OCD really struggle with, so we’re going to get into a variety of different topics—the repetitive praying, the long confessional prayers, and just getting stuck confessing the same types of sin. So I hope that everyone will stay with us for this conversation.

The first thing that I wanted to talk about was this wrestling that all Christians have. We can’t get away from it—between what our flesh wants and what our spirit wants, and how we are in this daily battle with sin. Paul talks about this in Romans 7, which some of you may be familiar with, but I want to read a little bit of this and just get your take on it.

Romans, starting in verse 19: “For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one that does it, but it’s the sin that lives in me. So I discover this law: when I want to do what is good, evil is present with me. For in my inner self I delight in God’s law, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind I myself am serving the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin.”

I went through verse 25 there. What’s your reaction to this passage as you hear it?

Michael: Probably not what you’re expecting, but the first thing that came to mind was kind of an affirmation that we’re God’s child. I heard a sermon once where it was Dr. Tony Evans, who I reference in my book, and he talks about that battle being very real. And he’s like, non-Christians don’t even have that battle, right? They’re flesh, and they go on with their lives, and they’re dead in their sin, and they don’t even see the battles. And I think a lot of people with OCD are very sensitive to this battle, probably more so than most Christians.

Carrie: Sure.

Michael: So I actually see it as an affirmation that we are God’s children. Even though it’s kind of a heavy passage, that’s the first thing I take away from it.

Carrie: I think that’s important for people with scrupulosity to know, because they may see sins that come up in their life, or they may have an ongoing struggle that they’re dealing with—whether it’s an addiction, whether it’s explosive anger. It could be a variety of different things that they’re wrestling with—selfishness, pride. They feel like, “Oh, maybe this sin is somehow showing that I’m not a true believer.” They’re using the exact opposite reasoning process that you just used.

You said, “Hey, I have the wrestling. That means I’m a believer.” Whereas scrupulosity might say, “Oh, you have that wrestling. Maybe you’re not really God’s child.”

Michael: Sure. I would also say—and I’m sure you cover this theme in other episodes—is that OCD attacks what we value most. So if we really value our relationship with God, we most likely have salvation OCD: “Am I really a Christian? Am I really saved?”

And I think that comes back to confession and that we value peace, right? And I kind of want to make a joke that people with confession OCD are probably middle children, right, in the birth order. I’m a middle child, and we’re peacekeepers.

Carrie: Right. Yeah. Everybody just get along.

Michael: Exactly. Everyone get along. Nobody be mad. And I think that’s probably why we end up in this repentance cycle of, “God, I want to make sure I didn’t mess up and displease you.” And it’s because we value being right with God.

Again, I see it as a sign that we’re valuing the right things, even though it’s coming about in a twisted and cruel way. We’re just constantly feeling, “Oh, I need to make sure that I’m right. I need to make sure that I’m not in sin.” All of that is just pointing to the fact that we value our walk with God.

Especially me, as someone with OCD, I would have loved it if people had said that to me in my hardest years. So I’m saying it now. If you’re even listening to this and you’re struggling, it means you’re valuing the right things. It doesn’t mean the opposite.

Carrie: I have met Christians with scrupulosity who feel like this struggle between themselves and sin just shouldn’t exist. And it places this unrealistic expectation on their Christian walk. They’re like, “Well, I just shouldn’t lust anymore,” or “I just shouldn’t drink too much,” or “I just shouldn’t lash out at my kids.”

And I think the fact that Paul wrestled with these things—I find that very comforting. Because the Apostle Paul was a great hero of our faith, and for him to say with this depth, “What a wretched man I am,” but at the same time, “It’s Jesus that saves me from all of this.”

I think that helps people have realistic expectations, especially if they’re more on the perfectionistic side of things. They think, “Well, I should just be able to deal with this and eliminate it from my life,” which we’re powerless to do anyway. That has to be a work between God and the Holy Spirit in our life in the sanctification process.

I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered that at all, but I just wanted to speak to that.

Michael: You just touched on it. I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding of something about us as Christians. Without going into too much detail, there’s justification and sanctification. Justification is what happens the moment we accept Christ as our Savior. We are washed clean, and when God looks at us, He sees the perfection of Christ.

Then there’s sanctification, which is we are now becoming who we really are. Meaning we are now children of God, and we are perfect in God’s sight. But we still have a flesh, right? That’s our spirit, but our flesh is still there. I still have all the sin-bents I had before I accepted Christ.

Over time those will go away. There’s an example in the Bible where they say the wives were sanctifying their unbelieving husbands. It was sort of a picture of the fact that they were living out the Christian life, and it was rubbing off on their husbands.

I think that’s what it’s saying for us too. It’s even more powerful because Christ is in us. We have all the power that Christ gives us spiritually, and it’s to be used to fight the flesh. There’s really no contradiction there. It’s more that we are two different parts, and we need to see those two parts differently.

I can be perfect in Christ spiritually, and we will fight against the flesh—the temptations, the greed, the envy, the lust, the laziness—everything that we struggled with before. We’re still going to struggle with it. The Holy Spirit will slowly change that.

Carrie: Yeah. I think a lot of people may be listening to this saying, “How do I get out of this behavior?” And what you’re really pointing to is that this is an identity piece. Like when I understand that I’ve been justified in Jesus and that when God looks at me, He doesn’t see all of my mistakes and all of my mess-ups and all the times that I’ve turned my back on Him or hurt other people—He sees the blood of Jesus. That’s huge.

Michael: Yeah. I don’t know if I put it in my book, but I really focus on this. I think one of the hardest things to do as someone with OCD in Christianity is believe that God is as good as He says He is.

Because what you just said—a lot of us know it in our brains, but living it out in everyday life is the hard part. It’s getting it to our heart where my heart actually believes God does not see my sin. I am perfect in His eyes, and I can live as if that is a reality, because it is a reality.

I think a lot of the time we hear it, we acknowledge it, and then we’re like, “Yeah, but…” and we just go back to the cycle of guilt and condemnation instead of really allowing it to soak in. And I think maybe just praying and asking God to help that soak into our heart is a good place to go if you’re overwhelmingly going toward the OCD and condemnation cycles.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s huge.

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Christian Faith and OCD Ep 215

Carrie: Welcome back, everyone. I am so excited to have Michael Care back on the podcast. He is the author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory. You can hear more about Mike’s story back on Episode 184, where he shares about his personal experience with scrupulosity and how he came to write his book to help other Christians who are experiencing similar things.

Mike saw that we were in the scrupulosity series and said, “Hey, I have some things that I’d like to say about this.” So we decided to collaborate on an episode together, which is super fun.

Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Welcome back to the show.

Michael: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me again.

Carrie: Today we’re talking about healthy confession and repentance with scrupulosity. This is something that a lot of Christians with OCD really struggle with, so we’re going to get into a variety of different topics: the repetitive praying, the long confessional prayers, and just getting stuck confessing the same types of sin.

So I hope that everyone will stay with us for this conversation. The first thing that I wanted to talk about was this wrestling that all Christians have. We can’t get away from it, between what our flesh wants and what our spirit wants, and how we are in this daily battle with sin. Paul talks about this in Romans 7, some of you may be familiar with, but I want to read a little bit of this and just get your take on this.

Romans, starting in verse 19: “For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now, if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one that does it, but it’s the sin that lives in me. So I discover this law: when I want to do what is good, evil is present with me. For in my inner self, I delight in God’s law, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I myself am serving the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.”

I went through verse 25 there. What’s your reaction to this passage as you hear it?

Michael: Probably not what you’re expecting, but the first thing that came to mind was kind of an affirmation that we’re God’s child. I heard a sermon once where it was Dr. Tony Evans, who I referenced in my book, and he talks about that battle is very real. And he is like, non-Christians don’t even have that battle, right? They’re flesh, and they go on with their lives, and they’re dead in their sin, and they don’t even see the battles. And I think a lot of people with OCD are very sensitive to this battle, probably more so than most Christians.

Carrie: Sure.

Michael: So I actually see it as an affirmation that we are God’s children, even though it’s kind of a heavy passage. That’s the first thing I take away from it.

Carrie: I think that’s important for people with scrupulosity to know, because they may see sins that come up in their life, or they may have an ongoing struggle that they’re dealing with, whether it’s an addiction or whether it’s explosive anger. It could be a variety of different things that they’re wrestling with: selfishness, pride. They feel like, “Oh, maybe this sin is somehow showing that I’m not a true believer,” like they’re using the exact opposite reasoning process that you just used.

You said, “Hey, I have the wrestling. That means I’m a believer.” Whereas scrupulosity might say, “Oh, you have that wrestling. Maybe you’re not really God’s child.”

Michael: Sure. I would also say, and I’m sure you cover this theme in other episodes, is that OCD attacks what we value most. So if we really value our relationship with God, we most likely have salvation OCD: “Am I really a Christian? Am I really saved?” And I think that comes back to confession and that we value peace, right? And I kind of want to make a joke that people with confession OCD are probably middle children, right, in the birth order. I’m a middle child, and we’re peacekeepers.

Carrie: Right. Everybody just get along.

Michael: Exactly. Everyone get along. Nobody be mad. And I think that is probably why we end up in this repentance cycle of, “God, I want to make sure I didn’t mess up and displease You,” and it’s because we value being right with God. Again, I see it as a sign of we’re valuing the right things, even though it’s coming about in a twisted and cruel way. We’re just constantly feeling, “Oh, I need to make sure that I’m right. I need to make sure that I’m not in sin.” All of that is just pointing to, we value our walk with God. Especially me, as an OCDer, I would love it if people had said that to me in my hardest years, so I’m saying it now. If you’re even listening to this and you’re struggling, it means you’re valuing the right things. It doesn’t mean the opposite.

Carrie: I have met Christians with scrupulosity who feel like this struggle between myself and sin, like that just shouldn’t exist. And it places this unrealistic expectation on their Christian walk. They’re like, “Well, I just shouldn’t lust anymore,” or “I just shouldn’t drink too much,” or “I just shouldn’t lash out at my kids.”

And I think the fact that Paul wrestled with these things I find very comforting, because the Apostle Paul was a great hero of our faith. And for him to say this depth, like, “What a wretched man I am,” but at the same time, it’s Jesus that saves me from all of this. But I think for me, to help people have realistic expectations, especially if they’re more on the perfectionistic side of things, like, “Well, I should just be able to deal with this and eliminate it from my life,” which we’re powerless to do anyway. That has to be a work between God, the Holy Spirit in our life, in the sanctification process. I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered that at all, but I just wanted to speak to that.

Michael: You just touched on it. I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding of something about us as Christians. Without going into too much detail, there’s justification and sanctification. And justification is what happens the moment we accept Christ as our Savior. We are washed clean, and when God looks at us, He sees the perfection of Christ. And then there’s sanctification, which is we are now becoming who we really are, meaning we are now children of God and we are perfect in God’s sight. We still have a flesh, right? That’s our spirit, but our flesh is still, I still have all the sin bents I had before I accepted Christ. And over time those will go away.

And there’s an example in the Bible of, I believe they say the wives were sanctifying their unbelieving husbands, and it was sort of a picture of just the fact that they were living out the Christian life. It was sort of rubbing off on their husbands. I can’t remember exactly where that is, but I think that’s what it’s saying is that it’s even more powerful for us because Christ is in us. We have all the power that Christ gives us spiritually, and it’s to be used to fight the flesh. There’s really no contradiction there. It’s more that we are two different parts, and we need to see those two parts differently. I can be perfect in Christ spiritually, and we will fight against the flesh and the temptations and the greed, the envy, the lust, the laziness, everything that we struggled with before. We’re still going to struggle with. Sure, the Holy Spirit will slowly change that.

Carrie: I think a lot of people may be listening to this saying, “How do I get out of this behavior?” And what you’re really going to is this is an identity piece. Like, when I understand that I’ve been justified in Jesus and that when God looks at me, He doesn’t see all of my mistakes and all of my mess-ups and all the times that I’ve turned my back on Him or that I’ve hurt other people, He sees the blood of Jesus. That’s huge.

Michael: I don’t know if I put it in my book, but I really focus on this. I think one of the hardest things to do as an OCDer with Christianity is believe that God is as good as He says He is, because what you just said, a lot of us know it in our brains, but it’s true in everyday life, and that’s the part that’s hard. It’s getting it to our heart where my heart actually believes God does not see my sin. I am perfect in His eyes, and I can live as if that is a reality, because it is a reality. I think a lot of the time we hear it, we acknowledge it, and then we’re like, “Yeah, but…” We just go back to the cycle of guilt and condemnation instead of really allowing it to soak in. And I think maybe just praying and asking God to help that soak into our heart is a good place to go if you’re overwhelmingly going towards the OCD and the condemnation cycles.

Carrie: That’s huge. When we talk about conviction, I’m curious for you, how did you come to an understanding of the difference between this is Holy Spirit conviction, I need to confess something, because that’s an experience that all Christians should have, versus this is some type of OCD condemnation coming over me and now I feel this intense fear where I have to confess something?

Michael: Sure. First, start with an example of what healthy confession does not look like, because it’s almost comical, and I think I touched on it in our first discussion, where I was on a spring break trip in college and I had to slightly unzip my pants to tuck in my shirt in a crowded setting. And I think there was one girl in this very crowded room who didn’t see it, but I was like, “Oh my gosh, what if there’s a 1% chance she saw that? It’s so inappropriate.” It didn’t really bother me in the moment, but then after the trip, I went home and I would start reading my Bible, and these thoughts of, “How dare you think you can come and spend time with God if you’ve just offended this Christian girl? You need to go apologize.”

I tried to ignore it because in my head, in our minds, I think our conscience recognizes sometimes when something’s an OCD thought and sometimes not. This one, I think I did realize, but I couldn’t shake the fear that I was in the wrong here. So I eventually sent an email to the girl’s boyfriend apologizing, and after I sent it, I immediately realized it was wrong. That is not what God wanted me to do. It was chaotic, confusing, awkward, just not of the fruit of the Spirit.

I actually spend an entire chapter in my book talking about deciphering God’s Spirit, basically, from everything else. So the first passage is in Galatians 5, where Paul’s telling us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And he says, “Against such things there is no law.”

So when I think of a time I wanted to confess, like the one I just described, none of it had the handprint of God on it. The thought was not kind. It was more like, “How dare you come before God if you have this wrong against someone?” It was very unkind. It was very condemning. And then there was the word joy there, and I find it actually applicable to use that word because I have another example in my life. I had a very tumultuous relationship with my dad. I remember listening to a sermon about being made right with other people at some point in my twenties, and normally it would just send me down this condemnation cycle, but there was something that I really did. I messed up with my dad, and I needed to apologize. And in listening to that sermon, the Holy Spirit really did convict me. I actually had joy, like, “You know what? I really should go make this right with my dad. It’s really bad that there’s friction between us, and I’m going to go do it.”

And I went and I apologized. The difference there was that there was no forced compulsion. It wasn’t like, “If you don’t go make it right with your dad, God’s never going to bless you. God’s going to be angry with you and not give you the things you really want.” There was none of that. It was just, “This is what I should do,” and it brought me joy to even think about going to do it, and it was a very gentle voice that was speaking to me. And I think we can almost start training ourselves to realize what the OCD voice is and what God’s voice is. And it’s right there in God’s Word. When God talks to us, it’s full of love, joy, peace, all of those descriptions.

Carrie: I think that’s great. And I love what Romans 8:1 says too, that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. So if you’re experiencing that condemnation, it’s not coming from God.

Michael: Absolutely. I think about it how I relate to my daughter. If I ever want her to apologize to a kid at school for something, it’s always for her benefit. Even indirectly, you need to learn that what you did was maybe mean and you need to apologize, or explaining why somebody should have apologized to her even if they didn’t. It’s never, “Oh man, you royally messed up and you got to go apologize, or they’re not going to play with you ever again.” But even saying, “I won’t accept you in this house anymore,” like that’s almost the severity that we feel sometimes when we’re confessing, when we have OCD. And it’s obviously not God, and it’s nothing we would ever do to our own kids. Probably we would never even do to our own enemies.

Carrie: I shared this in an email that I had sent out, but I don’t think I’ve ever talked about it on the podcast. When my dad would get onto me, it was kind of hard, and part of that was just he was kind of a big, scary dude. Not that he meant to scare me or things like that, sure, but when you’re a little kid and your dad’s kind of like a linebacker, it was a little scary, and I was more sensitive. So I wanted my daughter, in some of these correctional experiences, to know, like, “Hey, I’m correcting you. You did get time-out for this,” and all that, but at the end I would tell her, “This is what was wrong. This is why it happened. This is why you had the discipline,” whatever, “but I just want you to know I still love you.”

I think that puts discipline and correction in general into perspective. If my daughter knows, like, “Hey, Mom is disappointed that I made my own choice and there is consequence, but she still loves me,” that helps her feel more secure. And we can have that security as Christians in our relationship with Christ, that God still loves you regardless of what sin you might be struggling with, past or present.

Michael: Absolutely. I love the word you used, perspective, and I think so much of OCD, not just confession, I think all the problems in scrupulosity, I shouldn’t say all, almost all stem from an incorrect view of God and an incorrect view of how God sees us, right? If we really have this baseline of God is love, literally that’s who He is, and God loves us, and that is the entire relationship we have with Him is based on grace, right? That’s the foundation.

Then when we come to, “I need to apologize for something,” or “I need to confess something,” if it’s done with that being the foundation of the entire relationship, it looks completely different than how OCD brings the compulsion to confess to us. It’s completely opposite. I think the fruit, self-control, is the most eye-opening for me in Galatians 5 because OCD and compulsion are like the opposite of self-control. We’re just almost so compelled to go do something out of fear that we do it. That’s the opposite of how God would speak to us about doing something.

Carrie: I want to talk a little bit about hypervigilance because some people who are struggling with scrupulosity in this issue with confession, it’s almost like they’re on the lookout for sin at any point in time. And there was another author, Tiffany S., she wrote a book about anxiety, but with her anxiety she had almost some of these scrupulous ideas from time to time. And she tells a story about being paralyzed in the toothpaste aisle. “Do I buy the cheaper toothpaste because God wants me to save money, or do I buy this other toothpaste over here because it’s more all-natural and it’s closer to maybe what God would want me to use on my body, et cetera?” And just that paralysis, and almost thinking like if I buy the wrong toothpaste it’s going to be sin, like that would be an example of that people can get stuck with.

And I know you’ve had some paralysis of decision-making and things like that too, God’s-will type stuff. But I find that some people, it’s almost like, okay, there’s an urgency. Obviously we know behind the OCD, I’ve got to figure out if this is a sin, whatever this is, and then if it is, I have to confess it right now. Everything has to come to a full stop. But I wonder how people maybe can be aware of sin without feeling like they’ve got to be so hypervigilant to pounce on it at any point in time.

Michael: Sure. Again, this goes back to our view of God. In my book, I gave an example about how we need to walk in the grace of God, and I give an example of two different bosses. One is cruel, harsh, judgmental, always trying to put their employees down. And I make the proposition, let’s say that that boss came to you and said, “I’m going to give you a 25% raise if you meet all these conditions that I’m giving you now in the next six months.”

Our view of that would be, we would want the raise, obviously, so we would try. But we would constantly be, like you said, hypervigilant. “Oh my gosh, did I mess this up? Did I send an email to a customer and copy him and use a comma where I shouldn’t have and he is going to ding me for it? Or I was five minutes late yesterday, even though I stayed two hours late the night before. Is he going to ding me for that? My tone in the meetings with upper management, was it right?” And we’re just going to constantly obsess on, are we doing it exactly right? And the root of all that is fear because we know our boss is not good and he’s going to look for anything he can basically to withhold the 25% raise or whatever he promised.

And I think that’s what happens when we have OCD. We start viewing God as harsh and our relationship with Him as merit-based. God loves me, again, separate from salvation, like we can even know we’re saved and not struggle with that, but still be like, “God’s not going to bless me. I’m not going to feel close to God. I’m not going to be doing His will unless I read the Bible for the exact amount of time I’m supposed to, pray enough, help the needy enough, do all these things.”

But really, in my book, I go on and I talk about, let’s talk about the opposite boss. Let’s say this boss was kind, gentle. All he did was build up his employees. All he did was want to see them succeed. If they messed up, he would make sure that he got them the tools they needed to not mess up. Then he gave us that same promise. We would be completely relaxed in how we approach trying to meet the requirements to get the raise. We’d be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing. If I mess up, I know he’s so kind, he is going to let me know. There’s not going to be any surprises, right? He is not going to pull the sheet out from under me like, just kidding, you almost made it. You made this one mistake.”

And I think it all comes down to the word grace. We have to understand that God is gracious, and I love that word for OCDers because grace is unmerited favor. It’s favor we don’t deserve, which means it’s favor we can’t do anything to get. And that’s what I love because OCD is always pushing us to go do something to get something, and God is saying, “No, your relationship with Me is based only on Me doing something for you, so stop trying to do to get right with Me. You’re never going to do it. Just walk in My love.”

And I think that’s where it’s so hard for our hearts to believe that, that I always say the hardest thing for an OCD Christian to do is believe that God actually is that good. He is going to keep that promise to love us independent of anything we’ve done.

Carrie: I think the reality is, though, that we’ve been overcomplicating our spirituality for a long time now. You know, look at the Pharisees. It’s like, well, we’ve got to tithe. But then it went into, well, all of a sudden we’ve got to tithe our spices and all these other things. And then Jesus comes along and says, “I don’t really care if you tithe your dill because you’re not treating the poor well, you’re not loving people, you’re not being kind to them. Your heart’s all a mess.” And I think potentially this is kind of like one of the ploys of the enemy to get us off track of, “Hey, be uber concerned over here so that you miss kind of the big picture of what God is trying to do in your life.”

Michael: Absolutely.

Carrie: I know that some people will repeat confessional prayers over the same sin, so I wanted to address that too. Like there’s that sin that haunts somebody. It could have been an abortion they had when they were 17 and now they’re 35. It could be somebody that hurt someone or walked away from a previous marriage and now they’re just still stuck on that thing, and some of that stuff can be really hard to overcome. We’ve talked about this on the podcast before. There is no sin that God can’t forgive. 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sin, that He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Psalm 103:12, “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.” Any hope or encouragement that you have for people who may be stuck in that, confessing the same sin?

Michael: My answer was actually kind of in your question, and it’s, “How far is the east from the west?” I was just reading a blurb about that recently, and the east is infinitely far from the west, right? If you’re going east around the globe, there’s always a part that’s west forever, whereas north and south, there actually is like a North Pole and a South Pole. And I read somewhere somebody wrote that God, in His wisdom, intentionally wrote east from west because they’re infinitely apart. Your sin is no longer there in God’s eyes. It’s gone forever.

It’s almost just every time we feel like we have to confess a past sin, remember that and almost refuse to and be like, “I will not ask forgiveness again because God said He forgave me for this.” Easier said than done.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: But that’s the one thing we can do, is just refuse to give into that and be like, “No, I’m going to believe God.” It was that 1 John 1:9, if we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive, and He does. And I think we have to just stand on that and remind ourselves of that whenever it comes up again, because the condemnation of a past sin is never from God.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: “Therefore now no condemnation for us.” So it’s either coming from our OCD minds or it’s coming from Satan, or it’s coming from somewhere other than God, and we can ignore it because God said in His Word, it’s done.

And another thing I wanted to talk about with confession and repentance is that repentance is really just changing your mind. So if somebody’s struggling with drinking too much on the weekends, just as an example, and they’re like, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t do it,” and then they do it and then they have no intention of not doing it again, that’s not repentance. But if they decide, “You know what? I’m not going to do that again,” that’s what repentance is. So if we’re looking at a divorce or an abortion or a one-time-event sin that we clearly have repented of, we’re not going to do again, those in my mind are so obviously something we don’t need to address again. We don’t need to confess it to God. We don’t need to confess it to other people again. It’s done. It’s forgiven. And that’s the whole point of the gospel, right? God makes us new again.

Carrie: I see what you’re talking about, like repentance for the ongoing sin, because repentance is really about turning in a different direction. It’s saying, “Okay, if every time I’m around these friends, I’m cussing like a sailor, maybe I really don’t need to be spending that amount of time with those friends because it’s leading me away from God, not towards God.” Or if, like you said, if I’m drinking on the weekends and I make a decision, “Okay, God, You’ve convicted me about this. I don’t need to be having this much alcohol,” then I can say, “Hey, let me call another brother or sister and say, ‘Hey, I want you to hold me accountable. I want you to ask me about this or make sure that I’m getting stuff out of my house.’”

Whatever those prevention-from-sin activities are, putting the filters on your computer, on your phone if you struggle with pornography, there are so many different things that we can do. And that doesn’t mean that we’re never going to fall back into that sin again, but at least we are making some efforts or steps or movements in that right direction. It may be, “Hey, I can’t get a handle on this and I need to seek professional help.” And I think that’s certainly on the table as well too.

Michael: I was listening to Mark DeJesus, I don’t know if you’ve heard of him or ever talked to him, and he was talking about how people with OCD, he reaches mostly Christians, and he said a lot of them will start doubting they’re Christians because they have this addiction or repetitive sin. And he did bring up pornography as being a common one. I’m sure there’s other ones that are just repetitive that are hard to break. And he said that is common.

And I just want to bring up, that goes back to Romans 7. The fact that we’re fighting it and those people see it as an addiction or see it as like, “Oh my gosh, I need to break free of this,” that in and of itself is evidence that there’s something working in them against their flesh, which is the Holy Spirit. So it’s encouraging that they’re feeling overwhelmed by not being able to break the habit.

Carrie: I think this is an important point to bring up. Proverbs 28:13 says, “Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.” What I notice is that shame can really get in the way of repentance because if we turn towards shame and we get stuck there, it makes us want to hide instead of actually making us be able to connect with God and actively deal with our sin. We’re just like, “Well, how can I cover up the fact that I have this struggle with pornography and never tell anyone and just maybe say a prayer, ‘Oh God, please take it away from me,’ but I’m not actually willing to look at my heart and things that led me to develop that in the first place or get stuck in that cycle?”

Michael: And I think that’s where seeing our relationship with God out of a foundation of love helps, because there are obviously times where we need to confess things, but if we’re doing it with a believer that we know loves us and wants what’s best for us, and I know it’s hard to find, I’m not just saying that casually. I know it’s very hard to find strong, even lifelong friends where you can entrust those types of things to them. But it’s always in love.

And actually, Mark DeJesus was talking about this, and he goes, a lot of people with OCD even fear the topic of spiritual warfare. It’s just scary to them. And he goes, even that, we need to see it from a relationship foundation of love. God loves us and wants what’s best for us. And when we see spiritual warfare through that light, it changes the whole way we view it. So even something that we’re like, “Oh, this is overwhelming. I don’t know what to do. Satan’s around every corner,” we start spiraling. It’s like, well, if we view our relationship with God as He’s all loving and all capable and He wants what’s best for me and He cares for me and He died for me, He’s obviously going to take care of me as I fight this battle, this spiritual battle. And the same with fleshly battles, right? It’s a relationship of love. I’m not going to lie and say finding someone to trust is easy, but it is definitely something to pray for.

Carrie: Is there anything that you don’t think that we’ve touched on or anything that you further wanted to share?

Michael: I wanted to talk about kind of the lie that we often believe as OCDers about the butterfly effect, and I want to give an example from my book. Well, I actually still do a lot of sports photography, and in college I took a picture at Midnight Madness. It was a college basketball event. They put a picture that I had taken on the front page of the paper, and I remember the jersey that the guy was wearing was all orange. There was a lot of orange in the photo, and I kid you not, my thought process went something like this: “Oh my gosh, what if it wasn’t God’s will that I take pictures at the game? That means it wasn’t God’s will that they’re using the orange ink. What if they ran out of orange ink and somebody had to go get more toner cartridge from the store or from down the hall and they died going to get it? Their blood’s on my hands because I took pictures at the game.” Total ludicrous chaos.

Carrie: OCD could make a really good story.

Michael: Exactly. OCD is very creative. And I feel like sometimes we’ll view sin that way too, right? The decisions we make: “Oh, I committed this one little sin, and now somebody’s life is completely off the rails forever. Or my life is completely off the rails forever.” I remember having thoughts about where should I eat in college. Like there’s all these cafeterias. If I go to this one, what if I open to the wrong person and say the wrong thing and create a situation that derails their life or derails my life? It’s that whole fear is a lie because God is ultimately in control.

And so I wanted to bring that up because I think that is a big theme that OCDers have about sin, is that I’m going to commit this one sin that will just be irreversible for all of time.

Carrie: It’s going to wreck my life, potentially.

Michael: Exactly. And that is the opposite of what God says. God redeems us. He even loved the verse about the locusts that had destroyed the crops in, I think it’s Joel, and He says, “I’ll even restore to you the years that the locusts have eaten.” God can literally change events and life for us to restore us. That’s the whole point of the gospel, is to make us new again.

Carrie: I just encourage people to remember, we’re not that powerful. We’re not that powerful to mess up God’s plans, but OCD will have you convinced the whole world hangs on this one moment in time and making the right choice in that one moment in time.

But I wanted to end on a scripture that I really feel like brings this whole conversation into balance, and it’s 1 John 2:1. I love this so much for OCD and scrupulosity. “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” And so there’s this balance. I think sometimes people fear not taking their sins seriously enough, and for John to say, “Hey, I’m writing this to you so that you don’t sin, but I want you to know if you do, we have Jesus.” I just think that is so beautiful, and hopefully that’s the truth that people can hold onto as they’re listening to this today.

Michael: Absolutely. I don’t have any concern that Christians with OCD are not taking their sins seriously enough. I think it’s always the other way around. You just reminded me of a really cool story. I remember where somebody was explaining what it looks like when somebody doesn’t take their sin seriously, right? And I think it was about, it might’ve been in a sermon, somebody was talking about somebody that had, I think, assaulted a woman, and they were having to get counseling for it. And in the counseling there was no remorse. It was almost like, “I’m just here because I have to be here. Let’s just get through this so we can move on.” There was no understanding of what they had done wrong. There was really no conscience. And that person said that was really freeing for me to see that because I know that’s not how I view my sin.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: It’s kind of like if you see it the way it’s not supposed to be done, you’ll know that the way we view sin as OCDers is not at all the wrong way. We are definitely viewing it with the weight that it deserves, if that makes sense, and even too much weight.

Carrie: Thank you so much for coming back and hanging out on the podcast with us today.

Michael: Thank you for having me.

214. Reading the Bible Differently for Scrupulosity

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores how scrupulosity can quietly turn Scripture into fear and pressure while offering a more peaceful, grace-filled way to reconnect with God’s Word.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why Scripture can feel triggering when you struggle with scrupulosity
  • How shame cycles form around Bible avoidance
  • Simple ways to begin reading again without pressure
  • Why understanding everything isn’t required for spiritual growth
  • How rigid beliefs about Bible reading can fuel OCD
  • Practical ways to reconnect with God’s Word in peace

Episode Summary:

Is Reading the Bible Making Your Scrupulosity Worse?

There’s something I’ve been wanting to talk about in this scrupulosity series because it comes up more often than people realize.

What if reading the Bible doesn’t feel comforting to you right now?

What if, instead of peace, you feel anxiety? Instead of connection, you feel fear? Instead of hope, you feel shame?

I have talked to so many Christians who quietly struggle with this. They love God. They want to grow. They believe Scripture is true. And yet when they open their Bible, something tightens inside.

Then the guilt follows.

“I should want to read this.”
“What kind of Christian feels this way?”
“Is something wrong with my faith?”

If that’s you, I want to gently reassure you: struggling to read the Bible because of scrupulosity does not mean you don’t love God. It may simply mean OCD has attached itself to something sacred.

And that changes how we need to approach it.

What If I’ve Started Avoiding the Bible?

Avoidance makes sense when something feels threatening. OCD is trying to protect you from distress, even if it ends up keeping you stuck in the long run.

But what if the solution isn’t forcing yourself into a stricter routine?

Sometimes scrupulosity quietly adds rules that God never required.

You might believe:

  • I have to read first thing in the morning.
  • I have to read a certain number of chapters.
  • I have to understand everything.
  • I have to get a life-changing application every single time.

Over time, Bible reading becomes performance instead of relationship.

Second Timothy 3 tells us that all Scripture is breathed out by God. That language is intimate. It speaks of closeness, not condemnation.

What if instead of asking, “Am I doing this right?” you asked, “How can I connect with God in this moment?”

What if you started with one verse about His love and sat there without pressure?

Sometimes healing begins with smaller steps than we expect.

Could I Be Reading Through the Wrong Lens?

Often the issue isn’t the Bible itself.

It’s the lens we’re reading through.

If you’ve been hurt by authority figures, church experiences, or even family dynamics, it’s very easy to project that onto God. We can begin to brace for correction, rejection, or punishment instead of expecting love.

First John 4:16 tells us that God is love. Romans 8 reminds us that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

But scrupulosity can make those truths feel distant.

In this episode, I share a story about encouraging someone to read a children’s Bible. That might sound unusual at first, but sometimes we need to step back and rediscover the redemptive story of Scripture without the heavy analytical lens.

Jesus said we must receive the kingdom like a child. Children approach with curiosity and trust. They don’t feel pressure to understand everything before they come close.

What if that posture could change how you approach God’s Word?

Is There a Gentler Way to Engage With Scripture?

I truly believe healing and faith can coexist.

You can deeply love Jesus and still need mental health tools. You can trust the authority of Scripture and recognize that OCD has distorted how you’re interacting with it.

If the Bible has started to feel heavy instead of life-giving, I want you to know this: God is not disappointed in you. He is not intimidated by your anxiety. He is not waiting to catch you doing it wrong.

He is inviting you into relationship.

If this resonates with you, I encourage you to listen to the full episode. There is hope for a different experience with Scripture.

Explore Related Episode:

141. Is OCD Keeping You From Reading the Bible?
Transcript

Hello and welcome back to the Scrupulosity series. Today we’re talking about reading the Bible differently for scrupulosity.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Keri Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

I did an episode before, 141, on “Is OCD Keeping You from Reading the Bible?” If you want more information, you may want to go back and listen to that episode as well. Someone in our recent survey said that they had a fear of reading the Bible, and if you are listening to this, I want you to know that you are not alone because so many Christians with OCD deal with this exact same thing.

And maybe you’ve never heard that before because you might not have met someone else who has the same struggle. Now, this can happen for a variety of different reasons. Sometimes certain words can be a trigger, whether that’s the devil, the Holy Spirit, repentance—I could go on and on. I’m sure there are many different trigger words.

Sometimes certain Scripture passages can be very triggering, such as the “Lord, Lord” passage where Jesus said, “Depart from me. I never knew you.” You may feel this guilt and shame because you want to read the Bible, but reading it just seems too overwhelming or anxiety-producing. So then you end up avoiding it, and it just causes this whole shame cycle.

So what should you do if you’ve been avoiding reading the Bible because it’s become too triggering for your scrupulosity? The first thing I want to say is to start small. Take a few Scriptures, maybe from Episode 211 on embracing God’s love. We have those references in the show notes for you. You can write those Scriptures on an index card, start with one or two, and just read them really slowly.

Maybe even put your name in the Scripture verse somewhere. God does not want you to be terrified for you to read His love letter to you. This is a love letter. It’s a story about God’s love for us, about redemption, and God doesn’t want us to live in so much fear that we can’t even pick up the Bible and read what He has to say to us.

Thinking about my own child, if there’s something that I want her to know or that I want to communicate to her, I want her to be able to receive that information in love. Even if it’s hard, even if it’s a discipline conversation, I want her to still have the understanding and knowledge that I love her, and I don’t want her to be afraid to come to me about anything.

Maybe a small thing that you can do to enter back into Bible reading, if you’ve been avoiding it, is to read a children’s Bible. Yes, even if you’re all grown up. I told this story in my email list. My email subscribers typically hear things from me first, so if you want to get on our email list, just go to kerybach.com and scroll to the bottom of that homepage to sign up for the newsletter.

I had a thought. I was working with a client who was dealing with some intense scrupulosity, just a negative viewpoint of God—God being harsh, God not being loving, God out to get this individual. I was reading The Jesus Storybook Bible to my daughter, and I thought, this is a great Bible because it’s all about God’s love and redemptive story and how Jesus is on every page of the Bible, how it shows Jesus’ story of redemption through the Old Testament and then joins it into the New Testament.

It’s just a wonderful children’s Bible if you have kids or if you have scrupulosity. So I thought maybe I’ll mail this to my client that I was seeing virtually. And then my initial thought was, wow, that’s a really crazy idea. Like, you’re going to mail a grown man a children’s Bible? What is wrong with you? It’s not going to land. It’s not going to go well.

The next thing I knew, I had the thought again, like, oh, maybe I should give him this Bible. And I wrestled with that a little bit, but not as much. I thought, well, maybe that would be a good idea. Maybe this is something that could shift someone’s belief about God to be in a more positive, biblical headspace.

The third time I thought about it, I was praying and just really felt this tug internally from the Holy Spirit that I needed to do this. I mailed the Bible. I said, “Hey, I’m sending you a book that might be helpful to you. Just kind of be open to it, if you will.” It turned out really, really well. This individual was receptive to it, and it was just a great opportunity to read the Bible differently than this individual was used to reading it.

We have our own lenses a lot of times that we take and view the Bible through—our own experiences, past teachings that we’ve heard from other pastors or spiritual leaders, even things that you may have picked up online too. People are consuming so much content nowadays that they didn’t use to 50 or 100 years ago. We didn’t have access to the massive amount of information that we have right now.

In Mark 10:14, Jesus becomes indignant with the disciples and says, “Let the children come to me and do not hinder them, for such belong the kingdom of God. I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

We want to be able to come to God with a sense of wonder, of curiosity, of not feeling like we have to have it all figured out. Do you ever notice that children aren’t afraid to ask questions? They’ll just ask you, “Why is this like this?” or “What is that thing over there?” Why? Because they want to know.

They have this sense of true wonder and trying to understand, but yet at the same time, there’s no pressure to have to know everything. And if we could just come to God like that, being open and being willing to read His Word and to hear what He has to say to us, I think we all could benefit from that.

I would encourage you to sit down in a place of quiet and really examine potential rigid beliefs that you might have about Bible reading. These are some examples that I came up with, but there probably are more.

One: I have to read a certain amount or in a certain way.
Two: I have to read at a certain time of day.

That could be a very rigid belief if you think, well, I have to read the Bible first thing in the morning. What happens if you have a really rough night of sleep and you aren’t able to read your Bible? You rush out the door and you’re just laden with all of this guilt and shame. I completely messed up my Bible reading for the day.

Well, no. There are still plenty of other hours in the day that you could read your Bible. You could put your Bible on in the car on the way to work. You could read your Bible on your lunch break. You could read your Bible before you go to bed. You don’t have to set up this rigid structure that sets you up for failure.

Another one that I thought of—I know I had fallen into this for many years—is, I have to get something out of it. Like I have to have some type of application step from reading the Bible.

Now that I’m farther along in my Christian walk, one thing I’ve realized about Bible reading is that, for me, it’s a way to connect with God. That connection piece is very important. And God may say something to me while I’m reading His Word, like, oh, I could be more loving to my spouse in this situation. Maybe I need to watch my tongue and make sure that my words are edifying to other people.

There are many different things that I might be able to apply from the Bible. But sometimes it’s just a matter of getting that Word in you. And the more that you put that Word in you, the more that it will come out of you in the best possible way. The Word of God is transformative. As we put that in, it changes us. As we interact with the Word, God brings Scripture to mind when we most need it, if we take that time to put it in there.

So it’s not always about this immediate three-step process of changing my life because I read these chapters of the Bible. Use it as a connection point, not as a very rigid “I have to do something after I read this.”

Maybe one of your rigid beliefs is about feeling like you’ve got to read it like a textbook and dissect it and understand everything and read all the commentaries. Maybe it’s looking at all the footnotes, trying to really grapple with it and make sure that you’re getting all the knowledge you possibly can. That is probably going to lead you to burnout if you do that all the time.

Now, there may be a time and a place. I am taking a very long time to go through an Isaiah Bible study that I have right now because it’s one of those deeper-dive type studies where you’re looking at parallel passages, a little bit of the meaning of words, and recognizing some repetition.

That’s the reason that it’s taking me a while to get through it. I will pick it up and then I’ll put it down and read something else for a little while. I’ll pick up Isaiah again, go through some of those Bible studies, and then put it back down. It helps to have a little bit of time away so that I can see more clearly when I come back to it.

I don’t think there’s a right or a wrong way to do that. If somebody decided they wanted to dive in and go straight through it, that’s fine. But I find, for me, it’s helpful to take a break from that and go read some of the Gospels or something in the New Testament, and then come back and do this deeper dive.

Who knows? I may be on and off in Isaiah for another year. I have no idea. It’s been really good for me, though, to have some time to dig in a little bit deeper without being rigid about it.

Another belief that you might need to let go of is that you have to understand everything. It’s the Holy Spirit who helps us interpret the Bible and understand what it means. But there are going to be times where you wrestle and you’re not really sure what something means, and we have to be okay with that.

We may come to understand it later. We may do some deeper research. We may just let it go and say, “God, this Scripture passage is really hard, and I don’t understand it.” We don’t have to immediately come to some type of resolution or understanding for everything that we read in the Bible.

We learn and grow. We hear different teachings. We pray about it, and the Holy Spirit reveals things to us. It’s a process. It’s not something that you have to feel like you have to rush through and know it all.

So let’s look at why we even read the Bible in the first place. If we have fear tied up around reading the Bible, why are we engaging in this practice?

Well, we’re spending time with God. Like I said, that’s His love letter to us. We’re trying to make a connection. It’s like when you spend time with your spouse or a close friend. All kinds of things can happen. Sometimes you feel really connected. You have deep conversations. You feel really loved.

Other times, you’re just sitting there like two blobs on the couch, each of you on your own phone. But even then, the showing up is important.

Sometimes in our relationship with God, we may feel like, okay, I’m here. I’m reading. I don’t even really know what’s happening with me. I don’t know if I’m necessarily understanding this or getting anything out of it. But the important part is that you’re showing up, that you’re putting in the spiritual reps to get to know God better. And there’s really no better way to do that than by opening up the Bible and studying it for yourself.

I would say don’t always rely on everyone else to teach you about the Bible. There comes a point in time where you may need to put some of the commentaries down or the Bible studies aside and literally just read the Word of God.

We read the Bible not just to spend time with God, but to get to know Him—His character. What does the Bible say about Him? What can I learn from the experiences of people in the Bible?

The Bible teaches us how to live and how to be in relationship with other people. That’s so important because some of us don’t know how to be in relationship with others. We don’t know how to have healthy conflict. We don’t know how to set a boundary. We don’t know how to truly love someone sacrificially.

We’re all in this process, trying to figure it out in community. Hopefully you’re in some type of Christian community or church where other people can come alongside you and where you can support each other on this journey. I believe that’s an important piece of the puzzle as well.

It’s not just about you having an individual relationship with God. It’s about walking with God in community. That is very biblical.

Second Timothy 3:16–17 states, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

 Timothy three, 16 and 17 states, all scripture is breathed out by God. Well love that part. Breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reprove, for correction.

For training in righteousness. What? That the man of God may be complete equipped for every good work. So we are receiving the words of God for teaching correction so that we can be righteous, we can be equipped for everything that God has called us to do. It’s gonna be really hard to be equipped for all that God has called you to do if you’re not spending time with him and if you’re not getting to know him.

Now, let’s say that you’re not avoiding reading the Bible. Maybe you’re not afraid like this person who is taking the survey, but maybe you feel like, you know what? I do have some of these rigid beliefs about reading the Bible. Carrie, and I am in an OCD rut. I feel like I’ve gotta do it a certain way. It feels super uncomfortable if I don’t follow this exact pattern of reading the Bible that I have.

This is where I, I’m gonna encourage you to be a little uncomfortable and switch it up a tad. Okay, so I’m back on episode 1 54. We had Jennifer Tucker on to talk with us about Lectio Divina, which is a specific way of reading. Scripture is very, uh, slow meditative. You know, you read through the scripture passage different times.

She also has a great book on prayers. We have another podcast episode on that hearts out to Jennifer Tucker. We love her. But you may want to listen to the Bible or read it out loud just to give you a different perspective or a different way of reading the Bible. I listened to a Bible in a year podcast for a little period, and the people had really great your English accent, so that was fun as well.

But you may find something like that where people are reading through the Bible, maybe reading a different version of the Bible than you’re used to. Sometimes it can be helpful to compare versions. Especially when we get tripped up on certain words, because different translations may have different word meanings that come out, and if you’re really stuck on, oh wow, I’m not really sure what that exactly is saying.

Sometimes reading it in a different translation can help you. There are word for word translations and there are phrase translations. You can look all of that good stuff up on the internet. Now, there is a soap way of reading the Bible. I found this interesting because as a therapist you’re taught there is a soap way to write notes.

SOAP is an acronym. Okay? It stands for Scripture Observation, application, and Prayer. Scripture can prompt us to pray for specific things for ourself, for others, so the SOAP method is another avenue for you. If you want read through the Bible in chronological order, there are chronological Bibles. Steve and I did that in 2024 with our church.

It was a very interesting experience and definitely brought out some things that we hadn’t necessarily seen before or thought of like. Oh, oftentimes we don’t think of, job, for example, was actually a very early book in the Bible, even though it’s in the middle, kind of in the wisdom literature section.

They also did a great job kind of incorporating the Psalms with different historical events that were happening in the Old Testament. So. There’s little different pieces that you can pick up from reading the Bible differently, and so you may have to shake things up a little bit to work through that rut or feeling like, I’ve gotta do it this way.

And these are all healthy ways of reading the Bible. We’re not telling you to do something really strange or crazy, just trying to help you have a different perspective so that you can connect with God maybe in a different way that you haven’t before. Do you have other thoughts or questions on reading the Bible?

And you have Scrupulosity love to hear from you. You can reach me at cherry bach com. We have a main contact form and I would love to hear from you later in this series. We’re gonna do a question and answer episode for different topics or questions that came up from our listeners. Some survey comments that we got, so we would love to hear your questions and hopefully be able to answer some of those to the best of our ability.

Alright, thanks so much for listening. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

213. Pt 2: Why Scrupulosity is so Complicated and Hard to Treat

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie continues exploring why scrupulosity can feel so layered and difficult to untangle. She examines the hidden fears, spiritual experiences, and beliefs about God that may be quietly fueling the struggle.

Episode Highlights:

  • How scrupulosity often attaches itself to other OCD themes
  • What it means to identify the “primary obsessional doubt” beneath the surface
  • Why theology and personal history both matter in recovery
  • How early relationships can shape your view of God
  • Why healing may require examining both belief systems and identity
  • What it looks like to move from an identity rooted in fear to one rooted in being loved

Episode Summary:

Why Is It So Hard to Trust a Therapist When You Have Scrupulosity?

Welcome back, OCD Warriors.

In Part One, we talked about the lack of awareness in church spaces, beliefs about mental health and medication, and how Christians sometimes struggle with thoughts and feelings. Today, I want to go deeper.

One of the most complicated layers of scrupulosity is this: distrust.

Many Christians struggling with OCD come to me after trying to get help from someone who simply did not understand what they were going through. Sometimes the first person they talk to does not have the clinical training to treat OCD well. Other times, they sit across from a therapist who does not share their faith and cannot grasp why certain fears feel so spiritually intense.

That experience lingers.

It makes you cautious. It makes you hesitant to try again. And sometimes it makes you question whether real help even exists.

Why Does Getting Help for Scrupulosity Feel So Complicated?

Scrupulosity lives in a space where faith and clinical treatment intersect.

Because the fears sound spiritual, it makes sense to seek spiritual help first. But OCD follows a specific reasoning pattern, and without understanding that process, reassurance can unintentionally make things worse.

On the other hand, working with someone who does not understand why certain fears feel eternal can feel just as unsettling.

That tension alone can delay healing.

Why Does Scrupulosity Rarely Show Up Alone

Another layer that makes this theme so complex is that it often attaches itself to other OCD struggles.

Relationship doubts can turn into fears about being outside of God’s will. Intrusive thoughts can morph into questions about salvation. Contamination fears can become spiritualized.

Now the anxiety feels heavier. Not just uncomfortable, but ultimate.

And if we only focus on the surface issue, we may never get to the deeper fear underneath.

What Is Beneath the Surface of the Fear?

When we slow down enough, there is often something more vulnerable at the core.

Not just “Am I right?”
But “Am I still loved?”
Not just “Did I sin?”
But “Am I disconnected from God?”

Until that layer is acknowledged, treatment can feel like circling the same arguments again and again.

How Do My Experiences Shape My View of God?

For some people, scrupulosity is intertwined with early experiences of authority, correction, or fear.

If you grew up feeling constantly criticized, it can subtly shape how you imagine God responding to you. If you learned that love was conditional, that belief can follow you into your spiritual life.

Sometimes the nervous system is reacting to old patterns, not to God Himself.

Healing may require looking gently at where those patterns began.

What Happens When My Identity Begins to Shift?

If you have long believed you are disappointing to God, stepping into the identity of beloved child can feel unfamiliar at first.

New beliefs require a new identity. And even good change can feel destabilizing.

Scrupulosity is layered for a reason. It is not simply a lack of faith or effort.

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, we continue unpacking why this theme can be especially complicated to treat and what that means for your healing journey.

If this resonates, I invite you to listen and lean in. 💛

Explore Related Episode

141. Is OCD Keeping You From Reading the Bible?
154: Using Christian Meditation to Go Deeper with God, an interview with Jennifer Tucker
Transcript

Welcome back, OCD Warriors, to part two of Why Is Scrupulosity So Complicated and Hard to Treat? Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present, abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

I got really long-winded, so we did part one last week, where I went over three points in greater detail. I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode if you haven’t already. As a quick review, the first three points were: a lack of awareness in the church or biblical counseling circles, which leads to a delay in treatment; two, all kinds of beliefs about mental health and medication in the church; and number three, the Christian church has an unhealthy relationship at times with thoughts and feelings. So let’s dive right into the next point.

Number four, why scrupulosity is so complicated and hard to treat, is a severe distrust of non-Christian providers, as I spoke about in terms of the biblical counseling examples. Unfortunately, Christians who are struggling with OCD, often the first person they seek help from lacks the necessary skills and experience to truly be able to help them. I find that really sad, but that’s the truth.

Now, some people don’t trust non-Christian providers based on past negative experiences, and I’ve heard all of the stories from you guys about trying to seek help and really just feeling like the person just didn’t get it. I mean, I think as clients—I’m someone who’s the therapist, but I’ve been to several different therapists—sometimes you sit down with a therapist and you can just exhale. You’re like, ah. They get it. They understand what I’m dealing with. They’re able to make empathetic reflections and say, yeah, that makes sense to me, and here’s why. It seems like you’re feeling this way, and there’s this sense of relief that comes over you, like, okay, this person is gelling. But then there are other times where you meet with therapists and you’re like, this person just has no idea what I am going through right now. They may have difficulty empathizing with your experience.

This can be true if someone doesn’t believe in God or value religious experience. They may have a really hard time empathizing that potential blasphemy or potential sin is really distressing to you, or this idea that you might be outside of God’s will or that you might not go to heaven. It can be just hard for them to get that. Maybe at the same time, there have been negative experiences where people have done non-religiously sensitive exposures, haven’t really worked with a pastor or spiritual leader, as IOCDF really recommends and proposes, just making sure that the clinician is working with the church, especially if they’re unfamiliar. Sometimes those things have happened.

Also, I’ve heard stories about therapists maybe making fun of hell, for example, trying to kind of make things more lighthearted or get the client to not take it so seriously. However, of course, this is going to be very distressing to somebody with scrupulosity who believes hell is a real place.

I just want to say a note here about, okay, in an ideal world, you would be able to find a Christian who has good clinical knowledge about OCD and is able to treat you. What if you have to go into maybe an intensive outpatient treatment program, a residential treatment program? What if you really, really need to use your insurance? You’re financially limited in the providers that you can see. Maybe there aren’t a whole lot of people who take insurance that are treating OCD. I would say, I think a lot of times people fear being led astray, but typically those people that fear that are pretty strong and grounded in what they actually believe. And I would say, don’t underestimate God’s ability to use nonbelievers.

What I mean by that is you look at this whole situation with Moses and Pharaoh, for example. Ultimately, God used Pharaoh and the Egyptian people, who were not following Him, in order to bless the people of Israel. They essentially got all of this gold and other things that they gave them for their journey, let them release them from slavery in the end, of course, after all the plagues and all that. This is shown through Scripture, even God using other nations to discipline Israel. So don’t underestimate the ability for God to use nonbelievers. If you need treatment and you need help, if you find a really good clinician, they’re going to be somebody that wants to work with you from your particular faith experience and your particular belief systems.

Now, people may think that it’s easier for me because I’m a Christian who works with Christians. Newsflash: it’s not. I still have to do this work myself because there are so many different denominations and streams of Christianity. I have to ask a lot of questions often to find out where people are coming from, and people don’t always hold the same beliefs or practices that I do. And so I’m really looking at where are they coming from, how are their symptoms affecting them, and how maybe their beliefs are intertwined. The OCD is intertwined with the particular belief system, and understanding the belief system and the practices, of course, helps.

I can tell you just from personal experience that working with somebody who’s Catholic versus somebody who’s in the Orthodox church versus somebody who’s a Mennonite versus somebody who’s in a charismatic church—their beliefs and practices may be very different, and that’s okay. Regardless of where you’re coming from, you can still recover in your OCD journey. You don’t have to completely change denominations or anything of that nature.

Number five, scrupulosity often does not exist by itself but becomes an offshoot of other OCD themes. It’s pretty rare that I find somebody who is only dealing with scrupulosity. Typically, they have had a history of other OCD themes, or they’re starting with one OCD theme, and then scrupulosity interferes and almost adds this whole other layer on top of the theme.

So even if someone has, for example, themes about relationships—should I be with this person or not?—then that can go into, well, if I marry this person, then I’m somehow messing up God’s will for my life if it wasn’t meant for us to be together. It could be a situation where I have some type of contamination OCD, but then that gets blended in with, it’s a sin to be contaminated, or I’m unclean in some type of way because of my sin. And so then I’m doing some type of hand-washing rituals because of certain thoughts I’m having.

So I’ve seen this come up quite a bit. Any type of sexual themes also ends up feeding scrupulosity. What kind of Christian am I if I have these thoughts? Maybe that means this about my faith. I don’t really love God because I’m having these types of intrusions or I’m having sexual intrusions. And then, like I said before, confusing that temptation for sin. So scrupulosity getting combined with other forms of OCD creates these extra layers to deal with, right?

So we’re not really at the root of the issue sometimes when we’re just dealing with the scrupulosity if it is connected to another theme. So it may be helpful to look at what someone was obsessing with before the scrupulosity came along and latched onto the top of it. Even something like I gave the example before about the denominations. It’s like, are we really at what ICBT would call the primary obsessional doubt? You can get caught up in the weeds a lot in scrupulosity, which makes it super hard on the treatment end.

So for the example that I gave earlier about which denomination to follow, is that really the primary obsessional doubt? Or is the primary obsessional doubt at a deeper layer, such as, what if I offend God, or what if I make the wrong decision and I’m outside of what God wants me to do? People can spend a lot of time in therapy hashing out these ideas or ruminating about, well, this denomination says this and that denomination says that. You can get super in the weeds about Calvinism versus communionism and these other things that may be really bothering someone, but then you’re never actually getting down to the root of what is actually scaring them.

What are you actually concerned about? And typically what I’ve seen is there’s some type of worry or doubt about being disconnected from God in some way, shape, or form. Whether that’s present disconnection from God—I’m going to be sinning and God’s going to be displeased with me—or whether it’s future disconnection from God in terms of I’m not going to be saved and I’m not going to be going to heaven. You’re not going to really be able to deal with the issue if you can’t get down to the primary obsessional doubt in terms of ICBT or some type of core fear that you’re experiencing.

Oftentimes, it’s really hard for people to go there because it’s very scary. It feels very vulnerable, and it’s hard to even maybe know in your own mind, what am I really doubting in this situation? If you do get down to that point—this fear of disconnection from God or fear of punishment or being unsafe, somehow missing something, and then if I miss it, I’m somehow going to be displeasing or rejected—when you get there to that vulnerable, scary place, then you can be able to recognize the obsessional reasoning process, the arguments that OCD is using, and get to what your alternative narrative needs to be.

Now, when you hit that primary obsessional doubt and, in essence, this core thing that you’re afraid of, then we get to point number seven, where treating scrupulosity requires that you take a hard look at your theology and where it came from. We get all kinds of ideas about God, whether that was from a pastor you grew up with who was hellfire and brimstone. You may not believe those things about God now, but it’s still stuck back in there in your subconscious, and your nervous system remembers that fear, that intense fear that you felt when you heard that pastor.

You may have had parents that quoted certain Scripture verses to you or were very harsh toward you in their discipline, and they may have somehow incorporated God into certain things. OCD-wise, God doesn’t want you to be a lazy person. God doesn’t want you to be dirty. Cleanliness is next to godliness, whatever it was. Those ideas from people got mixed in with your theology. You have to be able to examine, how did I come to believe the things that I do about God? I think that is crucial.

Oftentimes, there are things that we don’t recognize because it’s just the water that we’ve been swimming in. Until you get in treatment or talk to another therapist where they’re like, where did you come to have that belief? Or how did you get to that point? It’s like, well, it just is. It’s black and white, right?

There’s a lot of conversation nowadays about deconstructing your religious beliefs that you were taught and that you grew up with. You really don’t want to have deconstruction unless you’re going to have some type of reconstruction, right? What are we going to believe now about God? Are we going to use Scripture to inform our belief systems, or are we going on our own experiences?

Knowing that your experiences with God, if you have a relationship with Him, there may be experiences that you have that really challenge what you were taught. There may be Scriptures that you read in the Bible where you say, wait a minute, I wasn’t taught that. I was taught that I was nothing in the sight of God, that I wasn’t important, that I wasn’t valued, that I was just kind of here for God’s purposes. I was basically taught that I was scum. Now I’m seeing all these verses in the Bible about how God rejoices over me with singing, that we talked about on the love episode on the podcast, how God has loved us with an everlasting love, how God sees me as His child. And I look at my own children and see how I see them, and if God sees me that way, then wow, that’s completely different than what I grew up believing.

Whatever it is for you, I think you have to be able to take a hard look and recognize maybe something that I believe is not true and it’s not in alignment with my relationship with God.

I’ll give you a very small example in my life that is not of huge relevance, but I was taught as a child, growing up in the Baptist church, that speaking in tongues was not a thing, that it was a thing in the Bible. My dad was a very strong cessationist, where they believed that there was a point where speaking in tongues ceased and it was no more. Since being an adult and going to different churches, I’ve met some people that I consider to be very godly people and strong believers who speak in tongues. So I have a respect for those people, even though I haven’t been given that gift myself.

I would say that that’s one belief that has changed based on my own review of the Scriptures for myself as an adult and through personal experience of talking with other believers. I think we have to free ourselves to acknowledge that maybe our past self was wrong about something, and that’s okay. And maybe our beliefs can change. That’s not necessarily a bad thing.

I know that Steve and I have talked about this with some other non-essential beliefs, that some of his views on certain things have changed over time based on reading the Bible, prayer, personal experience, and talking with other people. So it’s okay and, I think, healthy every once in a while to examine what you believe about God and understand where that came from and why you believe that.

Number eight is you have to be willing to examine how your relationships with others are impacting the scrupulosity, how they’ve impacted your view of God. Specifically, those early relationships that we had with parents, teachers, coaches, grandparents really can influence how we view God. Oftentimes, we take those experiences from other people and place them onto God.

If you just felt like people were constantly disappointed in you, like you could never live up to their expectations, it makes sense that you would believe that God is that way. If you feel like people were just very harsh and always pointing out what you were doing wrong, or you were constantly being punished, maybe you really struggled to please people but you always seemed to get in trouble, and the punishment maybe didn’t quite fit the crime, was maybe harsher than it needed to be—I don’t know what your experience was—but that might be another example where you feel like, okay, God is really harsh and is coming down on me pretty hard.

I had a father who was pretty big and could be pretty scary when he was angry. Not in an I’m going to be beat up kind of way, but more of an authoritative, verbally scary type of way. I definitely put that onto God, like maybe God is like Dad and He’s going to yell at me if I get in trouble, or He’s going to be upset with me if I do the wrong thing. And it took me a while into my adulthood to be able to even call God Father. That just didn’t seem quite right to me.

This understanding now of God as a loving Father has completely changed and shifted things for me. It’s been a healing journey and very therapeutic for me. But it took me a while to get there because, as I shared on the very first episode of this podcast, when I was growing up, God seemed to be very harsh to me. In the Old Testament, God seemed very angry. Now I have a much more balanced view of that because I can definitely see God’s love throughout different pieces of the Old Testament. But back when I was a kid, things didn’t quite make as much sense for me.

I also didn’t see God as wanting to be intimately involved in every aspect of my life. I think my parents did a really good job of taking us to church and talking to us about God when it came to the big things and the moral things. But I really want my daughter to know something that maybe my child self didn’t know, that God cares about your math test on a Tuesday just as much as He cares about you making the right decision over here about something. God wants to be intimately involved in your life. He wants you to go to Him over all types of different things. Things that seem small to us are not insignificant to Him, and He has enough space to hold them. It’s not like we’re going to bother God. If we go to Him about our math test, He’s not going to be like, why are you talking to Me about that? He’s going to be like, I’m so glad that you talked to Me about that. God wants to give us peace.

I didn’t get that picture of God growing up, and now I’m able to tell my daughter, you can talk to God about anything, whatever you need to. And she just has these really sweet prayers at night where she thanks God for different toys in her room, and I just think that that’s beautiful.

Oftentimes, we overcomplicate our connection with God. Jesus said, come like a child. So if we look at how children approach God, then it’s much more simple and much easier than trying to follow a huge, long list of rules or picking apart every little thing to determine whether or not it’s a sin or it’s okay. I think that children have a greater understanding of things being about the heart and doing things out of love.

So how have your relationships with caregivers impacted your view of God? This is really where I believe a great EMDR application can come in. Because if we do have some of those wounding experiences that are stuck in our nervous system and you’re able to process through that and come to the other side where you’re feeling calmer and recognizing, oh, okay, I was hurt by certain people, or I understand I’m making a connection now between a parent and viewing God as harsh, or this super critical parent and viewing God as critical. That type of work typically isn’t going to enter into typical ERP or ICBT treatment.

One of the things that I think is really important and critical is to look at individuals as whole people, to look at the various aspects of what’s happening for them versus looking at them from a lens of diagnosis. When I was much earlier on in my career, someone would come to me and say, hey, I have trauma. I’m like, hey, great, I do this trauma therapy called EMDR. We could handle that. Or someone would come and say, hey, I have anxiety. Oh, great, here’s some tools that I can give you for anxiety. There’s also some things that we can do with EMDR that will really help you get down to the root and not have to carry so much anxiety around in your nervous system.

And it was this much cleaner process, right, of here’s a problem that someone has, and then here’s an appropriate intervention. And it’s also somewhat what we’re taught in school. The longer that you go along, the more complex individuals you find and the more you recognize different approaches can be helpful in different circumstances and situations. I don’t believe in a one-size-fits-all treatment process for anyone.

New beliefs require a new identity. If you are going to embrace new beliefs about faith, new beliefs about God—if you are no longer the unworthy stepchild in the family of God and you are going to be the beloved child—that requires putting on a new identity in Jesus. Sometimes shedding that old identity that’s comfortable or familiar to embrace your new identity in Christ can be really, really challenging if you’ve lived for a really long time believing God was disappointed in you or that you weren’t good enough or that you weren’t ever going to be able to meet His standards.

And now you’re trying to shift over every day into believing that you are absolutely and completely loved, that you have been saved, that the cross is the finished work of Jesus Christ, and there’s nothing else that you need to do to earn God’s love. Ephesians 4 talks about putting off the old self and putting on the new self and understanding who you are in Christ. Freedom is going to be uncomfortable at first if it’s a new experience for you.

What do you think about these points that I came up with? I would love to hear from you. If you’re a therapist that treats scrupulosity, if you’re a person that struggles with it, if you have a family member or a loved one, I’d love to hear your honest feedback on this episode because I just want to know, are other people seeing what I’m seeing in the world and talking about the complexities that get brought into the scrupulosity equation?

If you are struggling with scrupulosity, my hope is that you’ve gotten a few things out of this episode. One is that there is hope for you, that there is a pathway forward, that it may be complicated, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t get help with this. Number two, I hope that it’s validating to you that if you’ve struggled, if you’ve been to a couple different therapists, if you’ve tried the biblical therapy and then tried a clinical counselor who wasn’t Christian and tried to find this happy medium of what you were looking for between solid biblical truth and clinical skills that are going to be able to help you, know that you’re not alone. We get emails from people all the time who are seeking to find that.

If you happen to be a therapist that you feel like is aligned with that vision, where you’re a strong believer and also have strong clinical skills, please write to us. Please reach out via the podcast. You can go to kerrybock.com/podcast. There should be a contact form on there. If not, you can hit us up on the main contact form on the website. We’d love to hear from you. We probably could provide you some referrals because we do have people that reach out to us and ask, do you know anyone in my state? And unfortunately, nine times out of ten, the answer is no.

So if you are a Christian counselor who has some things you want to talk about or have conversations about on the podcast, we’d love to have you and love to be able to add you to our very small, at this point, referral list for Christians who are struggling with OCD.

And if you feel like you’ve only been getting a one-size-fits-all approach, it’s a really great opportunity for you to advocate for yourself and to figure out, okay, what’s the next step? What do I need? I provide consultations for people. I provide intensive experiences, multi-day therapeutic retreats. I have an online course called Empowered Mind for Christians who are struggling with all types of OCD, but many people in there are specifically struggling with scrupulosity. Come join that program and really squeeze all of the goodness that is in there out of it. It’s been able to help a lot of people at this point, and I pray that it continues to be able to help people who feel like they haven’t been able to get the help that they needed before, where it’s been out of reach for some reason for them.

You can reach me at carriebock.com. I love hearing from you guys. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

212.  Pt 1: Why Scrupulosity is so Complicated and Hard to Treat

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

As we continue the Scrupulosity Series, Carrie unpacks the hidden layers that make religious OCD uniquely complex, especially when spiritual doubt, fear of sin, and confusion about God’s character get tangled in the OCD cycle.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why scrupulosity (religious OCD) is more complex than other OCD themes and why it often feels harder to treat
  • How church culture and biblical counseling can unintentionally reinforce the OCD cycle
  • Why reassurance about salvation, sin, or blasphemy can actually make scrupulosity worse
  • How mental health stigma in Christian spaces delays proper OCD treatment
  • The difference between intrusive thoughts, temptation, and actual sin from a biblical perspective
  • How black-and-white theology and fear-based thinking keep religious OCD stuck

Episode Summary:

Have you ever wondered why scrupulosity feels harder to untangle than other types of OCD? Not just distressing or intrusive, but deeply personal. Like it’s wrapped around your faith, your salvation, and your relationship with God in a way that makes everything feel higher stakes.

When I sat down to record this episode, I truly thought I could cover it all in one sitting. I couldn’t. There are too many layers. So we’re taking this in two parts.

If you’ve been feeling stuck or confused about why this struggle feels so intense, I think this conversation is going to bring some clarity.

Why Does Scrupulosity Feel Different From Other OCD Themes?

On paper, OCD follows similar reasoning patterns across themes. But when it attaches itself to your faith, it hits differently.

You’re not just afraid of being wrong. You’re afraid of sinning. You’re afraid of losing your salvation. You’re afraid of disappointing God.

That spiritual weight changes everything. And it’s one of the reasons scrupulosity feels uniquely heavy.

Why Do Christians With Scrupulosity Go to Pastors First?

Because the fears sound spiritual.

If you’re thinking, “What if I blasphemed?” or “What if I’m not truly saved?” of course you’re going to seek spiritual guidance. That makes sense.

But what if what you’re experiencing isn’t primarily a spiritual problem?

What if it’s OCD attaching itself to the thing you value most?

That distinction matters more than you may realize.

Can Reassurance Make Scrupulosity Worse?

This one is tender.

Reassurance feels comforting in the moment. But if the doubt keeps coming back, if the relief doesn’t last, if you find yourself asking the same question in slightly different ways, that may not be weak faith.

It may be the OCD cycle strengthening itself.

Understanding that changes how we approach healing.

Is Taking Medication for OCD a Lack of Faith?

I hear this concern more than you might think.

Some believers quietly carry shame about therapy or medication, wondering if it means they’re not trusting God enough.

But you can love Jesus deeply and still need professional support. Sometimes God’s provision shows up through doctors, therapists, and medication. That doesn’t make you less spiritual. It makes you human.

Why Do Intrusive Thoughts Feel Like Sin?

Scrupulosity blends categories in painful ways.

A thought feels like an action. A temptation feels like a moral failure. A doubt feels like proof.

But having a thought is not the same thing as choosing it.

And learning to separate those pieces is a huge part of healing.

Press play and join me for this conversation.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

So what’s the deal? Why is scrupulosity so complicated, so hard to treat? I’ve said before that the obsessional reasoning process is the same, and so it doesn’t really matter what theme that you have. Inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, will work for you. However, I’d like to somewhat revise my statements on this because even though ICBT can work for all themes of OCD, scrupulosity, I’ve realized, is a whole other animal. There are so many different layers of complexity to this that we really need to talk about—challenges that people run into when they’re trying to get help for scrupulosity, as well as challenges therapists might run into who are trying to help people struggling with scrupulosity.

I’ve come up with several points.

Number one is the lack of awareness in churches and biblical counseling circles that leads to a delay in clinical treatment for scrupulosity. This is a huge issue because most people see this as a spiritual problem. They’re going to seek a spiritual solution first. That just makes sense. They’re gonna go to a pastor, a ministry leader, a biblical counselor, and say, “Hey, I’m wrestling with this issue. I’m afraid maybe I’ve blasphemed. I’m afraid maybe that secretly I’m really a Pharisee. I’m a wolf in sheep’s clothing that the Bible is talking about. I think maybe I’ve lost my salvation.” All of these different ruminations that Christians who are struggling with scrupulosity have.

Unfortunately, many people still have this idea in their head of OCD that it’s like Monk and they’re all germaphobes, or they all have color-coordinated closets. And we really need to do more education within the church. We had a podcast episode that I did with Rachel Kuku Woodward on what I wish pastors knew about OCD. Please share that with your pastor, your ministry leader, deacons in your church. We would love to get that information out there because people need to know what religious OCD looks like.

Oftentimes they don’t know what religious OCD looks like, and some of these issues can be common spiritual doubts among people that don’t have OCD. There is a delay in seeking care. What happens is people will go to these individuals for reassurance. They’ll receive some reassurance, but of course it doesn’t stick. So then the person is coming back and is even more distressed and more upset. Or maybe they’re ruminating about a completely different spiritual issue the next time. So it doesn’t occur to the person that’s talking to them that this is what OCD looks like.

I have gotten to the point where I shudder a little bit when someone with OCD tells me that they’re going to biblical counseling. Now some of you are like, “Carrie, I know that you’re a Christian and I know that you read the Bible and love the Lord. So why would you say that? Are you anti-biblical counseling?” No, I’m not anti-biblical counseling. I think it has its place. I think it might be really helpful for someone that’s, for example, trying to figure out how to emulate a godly marriage according to the Bible. Maybe they didn’t have good examples of that, or maybe they just didn’t grow up in a church that was teaching about how to be a godly wife or how to be a godly husband. Maybe it could be really great for people who are needing to deal with forgiveness. They find themselves having a lot of bitterness or a lot of anger towards things that have happened to them that they wanna deal with on a spiritual level and forgive people. I went through some of that work in college. It was amazing and incredibly helpful for me.

So I think there is a place for biblical counseling—not when it comes to OCD treatment. The reason for that is because 97 out of a hundred times, that person is going to said biblical counselor who doesn’t have any knowledge about OCD, how to treat OCD, and that person is just providing reassurance or co-ruminating with the individual with OCD, which is only strengthening the process, once again delaying treatment and causing the OCD to strengthen and get worse. Think about this for a minute. Someone is gonna get help and the help they’re seeking is actually making them sicker. This has gotta stop. We have to educate and coordinate our faith communities as therapists and be working arm in arm together to help support people in the best way possible—spiritually, mentally, emotionally, medically.

Number two, scrupulosity is really complicated and hard to treat because there are all kinds of different views about mental health and medication in the church today. Now I believe that we have come a long way. I am very hopeful. The reason I’m hopeful is because when I started this podcast over five years ago now, there was just very, very little to nothing in regards to Christianity and OCD. Now that has changed. There have been more personal stories that people have written or shared, knowledge that is coming to the forefront. But I searched, I dug down in the Google search, and I just didn’t have resources. And that’s one of the reasons that I’m here talking about this with you guys, because I became very burdened that there’s nothing that’s clinically sound and biblically sound mixed together.

I was hearing from too many Christians that they were just getting the easy kind of answers, the pat answers in the church. “You know, you just really need to pray about this more, and if you just trusted God with that. I mean, just let it go. Just trust God. You know, if you have enough faith, God will move the mountains for you.” All of these things are not particularly helpful when someone is in an immense state of suffering.

And of course, it’s helpful to pray. Of course, it’s helpful to read your Bible. But if we have somebody who’s up in debt, up to their eyeballs, we’re not just gonna throw them a Bible, say a prayer for them, and walk away. I hope you wouldn’t do that if they came to you for help and said, “Hey, I’m in debt up to my eyeballs. I’m struggling.” I hope that you would be like, “Hey, can we find you a financial counselor? Maybe somebody that can sit down with you and look at what you owe, look at your interest rates, find a pathway out of this if that’s something that you’re willing to do.” Most people who are in really bad shape like that can’t get out on their own.

And so the same thing with mental health struggles. If someone is coming to you and they have a severe medical problem like diabetes or cancer, of course we’re gonna pray for that person. Of course, we’re gonna maybe send them encouraging scriptures. We’re not just gonna leave it at that. We’re gonna say, “Hey, what is your doctor saying? What’s the plan? What does the treatment plan look like? How is your diet? How are other things going on in your life?” We wanna really care about people at a deep level and meet them where they are and help them meet their needs.

But somehow when it comes to mental health in the church, we’ve got this idea that we should be able to throw some kind of Jesus Band-Aid on a gaping wound and that that should be fine. “Well, Jesus is all you really need,” and just move forward.

Wisdom comes from God. James 1:5 says if we ask God for wisdom, that he’s gonna give it to us. And sometimes that comes from scripture. Sometimes that comes from the Holy Spirit speaking to you. But many times it also comes through other believers, through people who can speak truth into your life or knowledge that maybe they have received educationally that they can then pass on to you. God calls us as Christians to live in community.

If you talk to anyone who has been through an addiction and has become sober for any length of time, they will probably tell you that there was some type of community involvement that helped them in that process. Typically, people don’t just stay in their bedroom and get sober and shut the whole world out. Typically, they’re involved in some type of support group, or they have some type of mentorship happening or sponsorship happening, because we need other people. Sometimes it takes this huge level of humility to be able to say, “You know what? I need help.”

And when somebody is coming to us in the church with immense emotional burdens—we can see that it’s affecting them physically. Maybe they physically look super tense, fidgety. Their voice is shaking when you’re talking to them. They’re crying all the time. We need to be able to support them in getting the professional help that they need, whatever that looks like. I think unfortunately, many churches have dropped the ball on this and haven’t provided encouragement or referrals to professionals.

I wanna say a few words about taking medication. I’m not a doctor, so this is coming from a therapist, but I sincerely believe that you can have Jesus, love the Lord, take medication, and go to therapy, and that those things are not in opposition to each other. Sometimes people in the church feel like, “Oh, if I take medication somehow that’s a sign of weak faith.” It’s not.

I love what Tiffany S. says in her book Anxious with Jesus. She talks about praying while taking your medication, and just this combination of allowing God to use the resources that we have and understanding and elevating him as the ultimate healer. JP Moreland wrote a book called Finding Quiet, where he talks about taking medication for anxiety as a believer, and I believe that’s a really great explanation for anyone out there. I would love to get in touch with him. So if you happen to be buds with JP Moreland, I’ve tried to reach out to him via his website, I think, and really haven’t been able to get in touch with him. So if you are a networker, connector, I’d love to have him on the podcast. You can share this with him.

You’re not less spiritual for taking antidepressants any more than you’re less spiritual for taking chemo drugs or less spiritual for taking diabetes medicine. Let’s say it louder for the people in the back. Okay? We have to really get this sunk deep down into our psyches that it’s okay to take these medications, especially when you are in the midst of treatment and really trying to learn new skills. You’re struggling, it’s hard, or you’ve just gone through a really rough bout where your symptoms have become more severe. Don’t be afraid. Talk to your doctor. Talk to a psychiatrist. Utilize these things as resources.

I really encourage you, if you have OCD, to look into the FDA-approved medications for OCD because sometimes doctors get a little wild and just start prescribing various antidepressants. And so if they are prescribing something that’s not on that list, I would just say, “Hey, what is your thought process behind that? I’m just really curious. I did my research and I noticed that these were the medications that were FDA-approved specifically for OCD.”

Point number three is that the American Christian church has a really unhealthy relationship with thoughts and feelings in general. I know that is a very broad statement, but it’s something that I’ve seen over and over in my work, where there’s almost this subtle idea that we’re having to fight all the time with our thoughts and feelings. And how much energy does that take? That consumes a lot of energy—trying to fight with these things that are natural, that we all deal with and we all have to face at one point or another.

It’s much easier to take a more flat mindfulness approach of like, okay, it’s here. I may not like it, but I still have to figure out, okay, now that it’s here, I can either acknowledge it’s here or deny that it’s here. If I deny that it’s here, it’s still gonna be there and I’m still gonna have to deal with it at some point or another. It’s gonna keep coming back up and keep bugging me.

I think there’s this emphasis in the church to do one of two things: either to take our thoughts and feelings super seriously and put a lot of energy into them, or to deny them completely. And either is an issue. We have to find a balance point, a middle ground.

So if we’re putting too much emphasis on thoughts, it’s like bad thoughts have to be feared. We have to watch every little thing that comes into our mind. “You have to watch your thoughts because your thoughts will become your behavior.” That is not always the case. There are lots of things—trust me, I do not have OCD—but I’ll tell you, there are lots of things that come into my head that I do not act on. I’m like, “That is a really bad idea right now. Do not do that.”

This is why we have filters in our mind of past experiences, of things that we’re like, “Okay, if I do A, I know B is probably going to happen, and so I’m gonna not do A, even though I may really wanna do that right now.” I may really want to get defensive in this argument, but I know that it’s just gonna continue the argument and cause more relationship problems. I may really wanna scream right now because somebody is not listening to what I’m saying, but I’m gonna stop. I’m gonna walk away. I’m gonna take five deep breaths, come back, try this situation again.

Could you imagine if you acted on every thought that you had? How many of you have had a thought this week that said, “I don’t wanna do this,” and what if you acted on that thought? Even today, I’ve been recovering from a cold. I still am dealing with some sinus issues. I was losing my voice earlier this week and I said, “You know, I just am not sure that I wanna record this podcast episode.” Yet here I am recording because it’s important, because I wanna talk to you, because I know that if I don’t do it this week, it’s gonna get pushed off to next week and then I’ll have more to do next week. All of these things can go through my mind. They’re being filtered through my values at that point. And my values say, “Hey, even though we don’t feel like it right now, we’re still gonna show up and do the thing.”

You may feel that same way about work. There may be times where you do not wanna play with your children because you’re exhausted, but you still do it because you know it’s important and you wanna connect with them. Just think about that last time that you really thought, “I’m not sure I wanna do this,” and you did it anyway. See, you acted against a thought that you had.

When we overemphasize our thoughts, we may get really stuck on taking every thought captive, really having to activate quite a bit and do something about these thoughts. I talked with someone recently who was a former pastor who dealt with OCD, and he said, “Man, the pastor told me to take every thought captive. That just ruined me.” Now we have a whole podcast episode on that. You can go back and listen to it another time of what it means for OCD.

What happens when you overemphasize or place greater meaning onto thoughts than they really need to have in OCD is that it only makes them stronger. It only makes them come back more. If you’re trying to suppress thoughts, if you’re trying to neutralize them—like, “Hey, I’m gonna think of a positive memory because I just had a harm OCD thought. I’m gonna try to neutralize it with a positive memory”—rebuking thoughts, those types of things only make them come back more and more and make the OCD worse.

It seems to somewhat conflict with maybe some things that you’ve been taught in church. One thing I find particularly helpful is this concept from metacognitive therapy that says thoughts are like buses or like trains or subway cars—however you wanna think about it. Let’s say that thought bus comes along. You get to decide whether or not you are getting on that bus and continuing that thought direction or not. Or you can say, “You know what? I’m gonna let that bus pass by.” I’m not gonna get on there because if I get on that bus, it may lead me down this road that’s gonna take me to anxiety, intense fear, depression.

If I’m just ruminating on my past mistakes all the time, it’s gonna lead me to a sad place, and you know that. Obviously, if you have OCD, I’m not saying that this process is easy—to just detach from your thoughts. But the idea is that at some level we do have a choice of what we do with these thoughts as they come up. You may not have the choice of what bus decides to drive by. You may have lots of intrusive thoughts and you’re like, “Hey, I didn’t call for that taxi,” or, “I don’t wanna be at this bus stop where all these buses are trying to pick me up.” But you can decide whether or not you wanna continue on that bus.

Some people see any type of negative thought or temptation as sin. Having a negative thought is not automatically a sin. Having a tempting thought, such as a sexual thought, is not automatically sin. Once again, you get to decide what to do with that thought. You get to decide whether or not you’re gonna continue to go down that road of, “Oh, I had a lustful thought and I’m gonna give in to that and continue to visualize,” for example, versus, “No, I’m gonna disconnect from that and turn my eyes away. Leave that thought alone.” Temptation is not the same as sin, and that’s really important for us to wrap our minds around.

Those types of things can get easily blended in scrupulosity. So I’m blending being attracted to someone and lusting. Those are two different things. You have to be able to separate that out in order to work through it. Or I’m blending, “Hey, I just had a sexual tempting thought,” versus, “Oh no, now I feel like I’ve sinned and I have to confess and do all of these things.” Or, “I had some type of selfish thought and now I have to jump on that and automatically confess it.” Just be very careful about some of those things. Being able to recognize when you’re blending is super important.

In terms of thoughts, there’s a tendency to reinforce black-and-white thinking over certain theological issues. For example, the non-essentials can all of a sudden become essentials that people get really stuck on. Examples of this: Which denomination do I need to be a part of or follow? Scrupulosity will have you going round and round on that one. I talked to a person many years back, I believe, who said this just kind of had consumed all areas of their life because one of the denominations they were looking at was pretty strict and rigid in terms of what you could and couldn’t wear, how you dressed, how you did makeup, those types of things, what you ate. So everything in their whole life just felt really restricted. A lot of confusion over that.

I’ve had somebody reach out not too long ago asking about denominations and things of that nature. Scrupulosity can get really stuck on things that are non-essentials and see them as black or white, like there must be one that’s right. Somehow, if I follow this denomination, it must be right. That means that this one is wrong. “Oh no, my friend’s a part of that denomination. What does that mean? Does that mean that they’re not following Jesus right?”

We have to remember to keep the main things the main things. We’re about following Christ. We’re about spiritual practices that are going to get us closer to Jesus. That’s pretty simple: love God, love other people. That’s what we’ve boiled the first two greatest commandments down to, right?

I’ve had people stuck on Calvinism versus Arminianism. The problem is that you can find YouTube videos or reels on Instagram where people are gonna be speaking very strongly in one direction or another. “We’re right. We’re the Calvinists and we’re right, and here’s the scriptures to prove it.” Then the Arminians are over on the other side going, “We’re Arminians and we’re right, and here’s the scripture to prove it.” This creates a lot of confusion, obviously, for people with scrupulosity.

When we have this type of black-and-white thinking in a church, I think it’s much more balanced to be able to say, “Okay, what are the actual essential things? What are the non-essentials? About the non-essentials, some people believe this and some people believe that. One person isn’t necessarily right or wrong.” We’ve got to let go of some of the black-and-white thinking on the non-essential issues.

Let’s talk for a moment about feelings and either paying too much attention to our feelings or not enough attention to our feelings in the church. I’ve seen both sides of this. A lot of times younger people—teens, young adults—go through this. I remember going through something like this. It’s like, “I don’t feel close to God. What does that mean? If I don’t feel him right now and I’m in this worship service and everybody just seems to feel God and I don’t feel him, and I don’t feel like he loves me.” We’re just way too feeling-absorbed at that point because feelings aren’t everything.

I love my husband and sometimes I feel very close to him. But if I wake up tomorrow and I don’t feel close to him, I still love him. I’m still gonna do things to care for him. I’m still gonna ask him about his day, how he’s doing. I’m still gonna tell him I love him even though I may not have all these warm, fuzzy feelings inside. The same thing is true with God. There are some times where you may feel really close to God, but you can love God and not necessarily have all the warm fuzzies. We’re not gonna have those all of the time. Not all of life or all of spirituality is a mountaintop-type experience. You’re gonna go through some valleys in your life. You’re gonna go through some struggles and some wrestlings. All of that is very normal. All of it’s very biblical. Go read the Psalms.

There were times where David was on a high—defeating his enemies, life’s good, God’s good, everything’s awesome. Then you flip a couple Psalms later and he’s like, “God, where are you? What’s going on? Why are my enemies triumphing over me?” We have to find a more balanced view of our feelings and know that they can’t just dictate and rule our life and spirituality.

On the flip side, I’ve also heard statements in churches like, “Well, you just have to fight your feelings with faith. It’s not all about your feelings. You just gotta speak the truth and move forward, and it doesn’t really matter how you feel.” That’s completely on the opposite extreme. That’s in a different ditch on the side of the road. Two ditches on the side of the road. One, we’re completely all about our feelings and absorbed in them. The other is we’re just like, “No, gotta fight those. They’re not godly.”

God has created us in his image. God is an emotional being. Therefore, we are emotional beings. We’re not perfect, so we do not always handle our emotions in a perfect and holy way. But part of our sanctification process is learning how to manage these emotions as they come up. I really do believe that. God can use emotions in our life to connect us with other people in intimacy and close relationships, and I think that is very important.

I don’t think that we need to fight our feelings with faith because I don’t believe they’re in opposition to our faith. Even if I feel not close to God or I feel abandoned by him or I feel like he doesn’t care about what’s happening in my life, that’s a great and golden opportunity for me to then bring those feelings back to God and say, “Hey, here’s what I’m feeling. What’s going on? I don’t feel like you care about this.” God can handle all of those things. Typically, when you get all of that out, by the end you feel better and you remember, okay, I’m not in control of this. God is in control. Somehow things are gonna work out for my good and it’s gonna be okay.

I am encouraged and I hope that we can grow in this process with the church of having a healthier understanding, a more balanced relationship with our thoughts and feelings—where we don’t feel like we have to pounce on every bad thought, where we don’t feel like we have to shove down feelings that we don’t think align with God, that we can ultimately experience these things without being ruled by them. We don’t have to be ruled by our thoughts or ruled by our emotions. We can recognize that these thoughts, feelings, and body sensations are there. They’re a part of our experience. Ultimately, we’re making choices. Those things may inform our choices at times, and that’s not always a bad thing.

Sometimes you may have a feeling that you really need to pay attention to. If your body is in pain, if it’s sending you a signal that you are physically in pain, you probably need to pay attention to that. I think the same is true with emotional pain. There’s some kind of healing that God wants to do in your life. If we just ignore that emotional pain and we say, “No, I have faith. God is good. Everything’s fine,” then we miss out on that opportunity for God to do that deeper-level emotional work in our life and for us to receive that healing from him.

Join me back next week as I continue this conversation on why scrupulosity is so complicated and hard to treat. If you love Jesus and are struggling with scrupulosity, I would love for you to check out the resources on my website. We’d love to have you join our weekly newsletter. I put out one a week. You get it every Wednesday morning. Not only do we tell you about what podcast episode is coming out, but I really strive to make that valuable. I tell you some stories about things that God is teaching me in my life and how I see some of those things relating to the struggle of walking the Christian walk, and tie that into how it applies to OCD. So I’d love to have you hang out with us reading the newsletter.

Our email insiders are also the first to know about things around here because we’re on about a three- to four-week delay in podcasting world time, because it takes time, obviously, to edit and get things out there. If you’d like to be the first to know, head on over to kerryb.com to sign up for the newsletter.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

211. Embracing God’s Love 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

We’re kicking off the Scrupulosity Series by starting at the foundation, God’s love. 

In this episode, Carrie explores how shame, church hurt, and feelings of unworthiness can cloud our view of Him, and how Scripture invites us to receive the steady, unchanging love of Christ that nothing can take away.

Episode Highlights:

  • How scrupulosity distorts your view of God’s character and keeps you stuck in fear
  • Why embracing God’s love is foundational to healing from religious OCD
  • Common reasons we reject God’s love, including church hurt and shame
  • The difference between accepting God’s forgiveness and compulsively seeking reassurance
  • Practical ways to notice evidence of God’s love in everyday life
  • How speaking Scripture daily can help renew your mind and strengthen your identity in Christ

Episode Summary:

Why Does God’s Love Feel So Hard to Receive When You Have Scrupulosity?

If you struggle with scrupulosity, you probably already know the “right” answer.

God loves me.

You have heard it your whole life. You may have even said it to someone else. But deep down, it feels just slightly out of reach. Like it is true for everyone else, but not fully true for you.

As we begin this new scrupulosity series, we are starting at the foundation. Not with more rules. Not with more checking. But with something deeper. We are talking about what it really means to embrace God’s love when OCD has tangled it up with fear.

Because scrupulosity quietly shifts how we see God. And when our view of Him shifts, everything else does too.

Why does God’s love feel real for everyone else but not for me?

So many of you have asked this.

You can believe Jesus died for sinners. You can believe in grace. But when it comes to your intrusive thoughts, your doubts, or your past mistakes, something feels different.

In this episode, we gently explore why that gap exists and why it makes sense that your heart feels guarded.

Did church hurt affect how I see God?

If you have ever been rejected, criticized, or overlooked in Christian spaces, that pain does not just disappear.

Sometimes without realizing it, we begin to assume God will treat us the way people did.

But God is not like man. He is not withdrawing from you because you struggled this week. Scripture paints a very different picture of His heart, and we take time to look at that together.

Why do I still not feel forgiven?

Scrupulosity loves to replay things.

Did I confess correctly? Was I sincere enough? Do I need to go back and make sure?

There is a difference between chasing the feeling of forgiveness and accepting what God has already said is true. That distinction can bring tremendous relief, and we begin unpacking it in this conversation.

How can I actually begin to notice God’s love?

Sometimes the issue is not that God is absent. It is that your brain has been trained to scan for danger instead of grace.

I share a simple exercise in this episode that shows how powerful our focus really is and how shifting what you look for can begin to change what you see in your everyday life.

It may sound small, but it is not insignificant.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

  • 1 John 4:16
  • Romans 8:38 to 39
  • Jeremiah 31:3
  • Psalm 103:12
  • John 15:13
  • Romans 5:8
  • Psalm 139
  • Psalm 36:7
  • Psalm 18:19
  • Zephaniah 3:17
  • Ephesians 3:18 to 19

Tune into this week’s episode of Christian Faith and OCD, and let’s begin rebuilding your view of God together. And if someone you love is quietly battling scrupulosity, share this with them today.

Transcript

Hello, OCD Warriors, and welcome back to the podcast. I am excited today because we are kicking off a scrupulosity series. This series was really birthed from you guys, from surveying the audience and looking at what topics you were interested in. I know we have a lot of people who listen because they’re Christian and they’re really struggling with scrupulosity.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Kerry Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

That’s something we’ve talked about on the show in the past, and you can certainly search for that topic via our website. On the podcast breakdown page, you can type in any topic that you’re interested in, whether that’s prayer or Bible, and it’ll pop up those episodes for you. Today, I am talking about embracing God’s love.

I thought that would be an appropriate topic since we just passed Valentine’s Day. I also really believe that one of the keys to working through scrupulosity is changing your theology. And when I say changing your theology, what I’m meaning is lining it up more with an accurate biblical theology of what we actually see of God.

And if you believe that God genuinely loves you, deep down in your core, for me, that just has changed everything in my life. And so I definitely want that for every person who’s listening here. And I know from talking with people who deal with scrupulosity that God’s love often feels like it’s out of reach.

It feels like some type of concept that’s available for others, but not necessarily available for you. It’s theoretical. It’s kind of out there, but it doesn’t feel tangible. It doesn’t feel like something that’s close to your heart that you can really, deep down, know. Not just at a surface level, like, oh yeah, yeah, God loves me, but how can we really embrace it?

Before we get into embracing it, if we want to move from one place to another and feel stuck in our current situation, we first have to reflect on how in the world did I get here in the first place. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that happen in your life where you’re sitting there going, wait a minute, I’m in a pickle. How did I even get in this pickle in the first place? I need to understand this so that this doesn’t happen again.

So what are some of the reasons that we reject the love of God in our life? I would say the number one is that we’ve been hurt by people, sometimes by people who don’t claim to love God, but many times by people who do claim to love God. I know that I have been deeply rejected and wounded by other Christians. That has had a profound impact on my life.

I mean, people that I used to be close to, used to eat with, used to talk to on the phone on a regular basis, and now we don’t speak at all. That’s hard. Maybe you had a church hurt situation where people rejected you because you didn’t live up to their particular expectations. Maybe it hasn’t been an overt rejection, but maybe you’ve experienced just being outside the inner circle, maybe just a lack of acceptance from other people in church where you felt alone or isolated.

I know that has happened to me at various points in my life where I felt like I’ve tried to get close to certain people, but it’s just been met with challenges.

Another reason I think we reject the love of God is because we feel this sense of being unworthy, like we have personal defects, and how could God love me if I am dealing with this particular sin in my life or I don’t know. I’m the awkward person. Does God really love me? I’m not the person that’s going to be picked for homecoming queen, or I’m not the guy that’s going to be picked to be the quarterback of the football team.

One thing I know is that if you don’t have any sense of self-love, it’s really hard to receive, to open yourself up to receive love from others, including God. And what I mean by self-love is not this selfishness or overinflated sense of pride. I’m talking about recognizing your worth and value as being created in God’s image and being loved as His child.

That is what I refer to as self-love. I realize people may use that differently in different ways, and sometimes it has a bad connotation. But Jesus said that we should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. And so if we don’t love ourselves at all, if we don’t see any value in who we are as human beings created in God’s image, then how are we supposed to see that value in someone else who has also been created in God’s image and who is also deeply loved by Him?

My sense of self-esteem was pretty low when I was growing up. I looked around me and really felt this sense that other people were more talented than I was. This person was good at music, or that person was good at art, or this person had dance, and I didn’t really understand that my skills and abilities just may have looked different from other people’s.

I was certainly involved in extracurricular activities, but I never really felt like I found my thing, whereas I saw that in some of my other friends. They found that thing that made them come alive. Being a highly sensitive introvert going into even high school and college, that wasn’t seen as an asset.

If you have a hard time talking to people because you’re so shy, because no one has ever taught you how to make small talk or how to make conversation, I would think with my parents being in ministry that somehow I would have absorbed some of that. But for whatever reason, I didn’t. I think I needed some type of social skills training or something because I was pretty much afraid to talk to people and had to learn over time how to do it.

You combine that with the fact that I have the most serious look when I’m straight-faced ever. Then I also had to learn that I needed to smile a little bit more so that people didn’t think that I was staring them down or that somehow I was subtly angry at them.

The point is that I think at one point or another, we all feel unlovable. For some reason, we feel like there is no way that someone could love me. We reject God’s love because we just don’t get it. It doesn’t make sense to us. We can’t comprehend it from a human standpoint.

So if you’re a deep thinker and you analyze everything, which I know many of you do, it can be really hard to sit back and say, okay, God loves me unconditionally. Because we don’t have a template for that in our society. We’re all humans, so we’re all imperfect. We’re not going to love other people perfectly. Other people aren’t going to love us perfectly.

It’s really hard to understand unconditional love when we say, I just wouldn’t have patience for this person or what they’re doing, or I don’t think I could love someone who does that. Fill in the blank, whatever that is.

We reject God’s love if we haven’t embraced and accepted God’s forgiveness. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again. Forgiving yourself is not in the Bible. Accepting God’s free gift of forgiveness is believing in faith that if I have confessed my sin, as 1 John 1:9 says, that He has forgiven it.

I believe that God has removed my sin as far as the east is from the west, as Psalm 103:12 says. When that sin comes back up into your mind, however it comes back up, you say that sin was covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross. I do not need to go back there. That is what it means to accept God’s forgiveness, and sometimes it is a day-by-day, moment-by-moment situation.

You’re imperfect, and you’re going to sin again, and you’re going to ask for forgiveness again, and that is just part of the process. Until we get to heaven, we’ve got to get comfortable with that.

And the last big reason that I’m going to talk about that we don’t embrace God’s love and we reject His love is because opening ourselves up to love can feel really vulnerable. Not only are we opening ourselves up to feel love, we are opening ourselves up to being potentially rejected. Even though God is not going to reject us, we know what that feeling of rejection is like. That is burned into our nervous system, into our emotional muscle memory, so to speak.

So how do we accept God’s love that is there for us? Number one, embrace that God is not the same as man.

I never got to meet my paternal grandfather because he died before I was born, but my dad always talked about how he knew that his dad loved him. I guess his dad was not very verbal or expressive about saying the words, I love you. And my dad made a commitment and decision that he was going to verbalize those words to his kids, and he was going to say, I love you.

I don’t have a chance to ask my dad now because he’s in heaven, but I wonder how that affected his view of God and if he ever struggled with God loving him or not. I do think we take things from our parents oftentimes, and it could be parents, but it also could be other authority figures, whether it’s teachers or coaches, other people that spoke influence into your life.

Maybe it was a grandparent or an aunt or uncle who had an instrumental part in raising you. But we take how those people acted towards us and we often overlay that onto God.

Well, this person maybe was particularly harsh or strict, or maybe they were withdrawn. Maybe they were disinterested. Maybe your parent got mad at you and they just withdrew and went to their room, and you didn’t hear from them the rest of the night. Maybe it was something in the way that you saw your parents interact that you’ve laid onto God. Maybe your parent didn’t do that towards you, but your dad might have gotten mad at your mom and not talked to her for three days.

God is not like our parents, our coaches, aunts, uncles, or grandparents. God is love. That’s what the Scripture says. 1 John 4:16 says, So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

And even though you may have been rejected by a lot of people, as I have, God’s love is not removed from us. It’s not based on our behavior. Romans 8:38-39 says, For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen. We could stop the podcast right here. Nothing can separate you from the love of God.

One of my favorite verses that I have embraced, Jeremiah 31:3 says, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you. God’s love is everlasting. That means it’s not ending. It’s not going anywhere.

That’s incredible. Such a beautiful gift that He gives to us. God is not the same as man.

And two, I want you to look for God’s love in your life. If you’ve been around the podcast for a while, we talk about ICBT. That’s inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy. It’s an evidence-based treatment for OCD, and we talk a lot about sense data. And I really do believe that we have spiritual sense data as believers. After all, we have the Holy Spirit inside of us.

So how can we look for that in our life? How can we look for God’s love? I want to do a little exercise with you right now, and it may seem a little silly. I don’t want you to do this if you’re driving because part of it involves closing your eyes, okay? So don’t close your eyes if you’re listening to the podcast on the way to work. It would not be wise. But if you’re just around the house and you have the opportunity, first I want you to look for all of the red things in your environment around you.

Where I’m at, up in my home office, I see some books and they have a red spine or maybe burgundy, I guess that’s in the red family. I have some folders over here, like a binder that I see that’s red. A light that’s red, not on, that’s red in here, maybe a little bit on a pencil. And as you look at those objects in your room, hey, I’m drinking some tea, and that kind of has some reddish hue to it.

Now take a moment and close your eyes, and I want you to tell me what you saw in your environment that was blue.

Now you might be laughing a little bit like, well, that’s funny, Carrie. I don’t know what’s blue in my environment because I wasn’t really looking for that. I was looking for all the red stuff that you told me to look for.

This exercise shows us that when we’re looking for things, we’re going to find them. But if we’re not looking for things, a lot of times things will go unnoticed.

For example, I’m sure this has happened to you when you’ve bought a car, and all of a sudden you start to see that car everywhere. I feel like our car has a unique paint job. It’s not quite blue, and it’s not quite gray. I don’t even really know. I don’t remember what the color was. You know how they name these colors of paint jobs, and it was like that when we bought it. We didn’t have it painted or anything, but I thought, this is kind of a unique color. I really like it. There is something kind of peaceful about it.

All of a sudden, I started to see that color everywhere on different people’s cars. I was like, oh, well they have that same color too. Well, that’s nice. Oh, wait a minute, that’s the same model of car that I have. The same make and model. Oh, look at that car over there.

Of course, because now it was in my environment. It was right in front of my face. And so when we put something in front of our face or in our minds, sometimes we can’t help it.

We think about that friend that hurt us. We think about that church that really didn’t minister to us well and hurt our feelings. We felt like they dropped the ball. That’s happened. We bring those things up in our mind, and then we’re not looking for what are the good things that are going on around me. Where is God’s love displayed in my life right now?

And it could be something as simple as a flower blooming. There was a time where I went out to my mailbox, and it was just a hard season. I started to notice that my flowers were coming back from the winter where they go dormant. What do you call that? Perennials. You have bulbs, and they go dormant. They look like they’re dead and they’re toast after the winter. But then over time, as spring starts to come, as the ground starts to warm up, as they get that spring rain, the flowers start to come back out.

And so just even noticing that in itself is a gift.

When we have food on our table, when we have the ability to pay bills that have come up. Sometimes unexpected bills happen, and then you think, how am I going to pay for this? Or how am I going to be able to get the help that I need? And then God miraculously provides in some way. We weren’t expecting it, but finances work out or come through somehow.

It sounds really ridiculously silly, but I was going through a really hard season trying to recover from my divorce in 2015. I was talking to some friends just about the lack of physical contact in my life, the lack of touch, and I said I was thinking about just buying this gigantic pillow so I could kind of have this artificial hug.

Now I think they have these sleep pod things that are supposed to feel like a hug. Anyway, I don’t know anything about that, just seeing commercials. I probably would have bought one, though. I would have been in the market for something like that ten years ago. And they were just trying to encourage me and minister to me, and they were like, do what you need to do in this season in your life.

Feeling just really down and discouraged about not having anyone, I went to the store and there were pomegranates there. I love pomegranate. Such a side note, but it felt like, oh, this is like a silver lining in my day. It sounds really silly now, but it meant a lot to me at that moment. Like, okay, thank you, God, for this pomegranate. I’m so glad they’re back in season now because they have such a short season in the winter.

It’s like, oh, this is so great. I can go home and enjoy this part of my day after it’s been so dreary and just so sad and kind of depressed about being lonely and not having anyone. To me, that was God’s, in a very small tangible way, expression of love for me.

What happens when you read the story of the prodigal son? If you’re struggling with God’s forgiveness, what happens when you read that story and you put yourself as the prodigal son and God is running? I’m pretty sure in that culture that was kind of an embarrassing thing because just the way they would have had to pull up their clothes and all of that, it wasn’t something that would have been seen as honorable. But he ran to his son, welcomed him back into the household.

Not just that, but it’s like, hey, you’re back. I’m so glad to see you. Let’s throw a party. Not like, oh hey, I’m mad at you because you basically asked for your inheritance before I died. I mean, that’s what he did. Like, give me my share of the inheritance. His dad wasn’t even dead yet.

Some of us look at that and we’re like, yeah, I’m not letting him back in my house, much less throwing a party. But that just shows God’s longing to be in relationship with us and the deep love that He has for us.

And while I’m asking you to look for the day-to-day examples of God’s love in your life, I also want you to remember the greatest act of love that God could ever give you has already been given in His Son, Jesus. John 15:13 says, Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Unfortunately, as Christians, we hear this so much, Jesus died on the cross for you, that we’ve become desensitized to it. And I don’t want you to be desensitized to that.

I want you to take a moment of reflection and say, if I were to ask you, hey, would you give your child over for a murderer, for somebody that is abusive, for someone that has no care, no repentance, no concern for making the world a better place, your child over to that person? I would not. But God saw us in our mess of sin, and He chose to give His Son for us.

I just don’t think that we can ever really grasp that fully, that level of love. I think it’s worth contemplating and worth allowing deep down into your heart and mind and soul that this is the ultimate demonstration that God loves you. And that’s what Romans 5:8 says. But God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I think this is just a human flaw that we all have, to look at the deficits instead of looking at the good things. And we have to fight against that. As believers, we have to say, let me not find all the things that are wrong with today, but let me praise God that He is good. Let me focus on the things that I am so incredibly grateful for.

I so take it for granted that my house has electricity and I wake up in the morning and I turn a light switch on and bam, there’s a light. I don’t have to light a candle. I don’t have to get a lantern. I don’t have to figure out how I’m going to see to be able to work today.

My house is heated right now in the winter. As I’m recording this, we’re in this Middle Tennessee winter ice storm deal, and a lot of people are without power. And I don’t think I have ever been so thankful for my electricity lately because we were very fortunate and blessed not to lose power and had some plans and contingencies if we did lose power of what we were going to do. But I’m just so grateful even to have that opportunity.

Right on to number three, recognize God’s love in other believers.

Steve did something super sweet for me when we were dating, probably only a few months that we were together. I don’t know if you remember that toilet paper shortage of 2020, but it was a thing. The toilet paper companies had not caught up with the fact that they needed to produce less commercial toilet paper because people weren’t at the office and they weren’t at school and they weren’t in government buildings. So therefore, they needed to up their manufacturing of at-home personal rolls of toilet paper. So there were empty shelves when it came to toilet paper. And then of course, when there’s a shortage, people buy extra and it just perpetuates the problem.

Anyway, Steve shows up at my house one Saturday morning and he hands me a twelve-pack of Quilted Northern. I’m like, this is a good man right here. He anticipated a need in my life and he filled it, and that was just super sweet of him to do that.

Of course, there have been many, many ways that Steve loves me, large and small, over the years since we’ve been dating and married for five years now. But really a few months prior to Steve and I dating, my pastor’s wife at the time said to me, I think God wants to prove His kindness to you.

Steve was really an answer to many, many prayers of myself and other people in my life who had seen what I had gone through, the hardness of being single during my prime childbearing years. God has been so gracious to us.

But I wonder for you, who are the people in your life who have loved you at your lowest point when you didn’t deserve it, when maybe you hadn’t necessarily treated them great? You have a parent or a grandparent who is just always in your corner, always praying for you, always loving you. Sometimes God’s love shows up in a meal on a Tuesday night because you’ve had a crisis in your life and you just can’t. Sometimes God’s love shows up with someone showing up for you.

It could be a happy time in your life where they’re celebrating with you, or it could be a time where you’re sad and grieving and they don’t know what to say, but they just show up and spend time with you.

If you’re someone who has a tendency to push other people’s love away from you, I want to challenge you to allow it to come in. This is going to help you connect with others, and it’s also going to help you connect with God if you’ve been hurt. I know it may feel really vulnerable, may feel super scary. But you can do it. You can open yourself up to that love. God wants you to receive that.

There are so many one-another passages in Scripture that we can’t live out the Christian life God calls us to live on an island by ourselves. We need to be able to love other people, and we need to allow those people to love us as well.

The last point on how to embrace God’s love that is there for us is to speak the truth to yourself daily until you believe it. I want you to get up in the morning and say, God, I believe that You love me, and I want to accept that love today. I want to allow that love in.

I believe that Psalm 139 says that I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I believe Psalm 36:7, how precious is Your steadfast love, O God. I believe Psalm 18:19, He brought me out into a broad place; He rescued me because He delighted in me. I believe Zephaniah 3:17, The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness; H He will exalt over you with loud singing. How amazingly beautiful is that if you get up every day and you read some scriptures about God’s love, meditate on them, memorize them. Allow that truth to absorb into your mind and into your heart. That is a life changing. God will use that word planted in you to produce fruit, and you’ll be not only be able to love yourself in a healthy way, but you’ll be able to love others, the way that God desires you to love them.

If we don’t have the love of God in us, it’s gonna be hard for us to love other people. I wanna leave you with Paul’s prayer for the believers in Ephesians three 18 and 19. I pray that you have strength to comprehend with all the saints, what is the breath and length, and height and depth to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Lord, we ask that all who hear these words would believe and trust in your love, that you would allow them to see it in their day-to-day life, that they may be changed by it. Amen.

Check the show notes for the verses we used in this episode, and next week we’re going to be talking about why scrupulosity is so complicated and difficult to treat. So stay tuned for our next episode. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a sub. For seeking mental health treatment in your area.