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246. Navigating the Messiness of Dating as a Christian with Steve and Carrie Bock

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie sits down with her husband Steve to talk honestly about the messy, hopeful, and often awkward road of Christian dating, sharing what they wish someone had told them before they found each other.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why trusting God’s timing in dating can save you from years of heartache and regret
  • How to spot true relationship dealbreakers vs minor preferences when dating with intention
  • What doing your homework before a relationship really means (without becoming a stalker)
  • Why too much texting and long phone calls early in Christian dating can backfire
  • How praying through your list of qualities in a spouse can transform your dating life

Episode Summary:

Why Do So Many Single Christians Feel Invisible in Their Own Church?

I remember sitting in a row of single women on a Sunday morning, looking around and asking where all the single guys even were. Church can be a beautiful place for community, but it can also feel like the loneliest room in the world when everyone around you is paired off with a spouse and kids. Steve and I both lived that awkwardness for years before we found each other, and it shaped how we now try to show up for the singles in our own church family.

What’s the One Piece of Dating Advice That Could Save You Years of Heartache?

Steve has one rule he tells every single person who asks him about dating, and it is not what people expect to hear. It has nothing to do with chemistry or timing and everything to do with the posture you bring into a relationship before it even starts. We both learned this the hard way through years of dating that went nowhere, and it is the one thing we wish someone had drilled into us sooner.

Why Does Waiting for the Right Person Feel Impossible When You Want to Be Married Now?

I once threw a book across the room because it told me healing from divorce would take four years. I did not have four years to spare, or so I thought. What I did not understand yet was how God was using that exact timeline to prepare me for something I could not have handled any earlier, and Steve had his own version of this same lesson during his two decades of singleness.

What’s the Difference Between Doing Your Homework and Becoming a Stalker?

Steve and I do not agree on everything when it comes to vetting someone you are dating, but we both agree you cannot skip this step. There is a real line between paying attention to red flags and turning into someone who hides below a steering wheel in a parking lot, and knowing where that line sits can protect you from years of wasted time with the wrong person.

Can You Really Tell Someone’s Character Before You Marry Them?

We talk about the yellow flags that show up early, long before anyone is ready to admit them, and how the way someone responds when you name a concern tells you almost everything you need to know. Steve shares one specific question he asked on every single first date, something most people never think to bring up, and it ended up being one of his true dealbreakers.

Steve and I get a lot more specific in the full episode, including the prayer list I made before we met, and the story of how our first public photo together blew up online. If you are single, married, or somewhere in between, there is a piece of this conversation for you. Listen to the full episode to hear it all.

Transcript

Carrie: We pray that people are able to be the ones that aren’t supposed to be there are weeded out pretty quickly, and that you’re able to go in eyes open and see that. But so many times, to really get to know somebody’s character, this is true for friendships, to really get to know somebody’s character, it just takes time.

Steve: It takes time. You know? Yeah. One of the questions I got was, “How is it possible that a guy like you,” I’m not sure what that meant, “is still single?” My reply to them was, “I’m just waiting for God to tell me, ‘Hey, this is the right one.'” Yes, you have to put yourself out there. Yes, you have to date, but I didn’t wanna be desperate

Carrie: Welcome OCD warriors to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast, where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories, and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace.

I’m Carrie Bock, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode Welcome, everyone. This is gonna be the first podcast in a series of relationship podcasts that we’re doing for Christian Faith and OCD. I’m excited to bring my husband along for today’s show.

Welcome.

Steve: Thank you. Thank you. It’s good to be back.

Carrie: You wanna introduce yourself?

Steve: Husband. I am Steve. That’s not your name. Oh, darn it. I thought it was. I am Steve Bock.

Carrie: He’s a bit of a character.

Steve: That is my title, Steve Bock, Bit of a Character. Perfect.

Carrie: This is about as real as it gets. We’re recording in our living room right now, and the neighbors are getting their lawn done.

Steve: Yes, the glorious sounds of weed eating.

Carrie: And then our cats are around, and so we’re just hoping that they’ll be quiet. If not, we’re gonna have to pause this and cart them to the bonus room or something and kinda lock them in, so. Right. But right now they’ve finally reached their kinda chill, let’s relax and lay down state, so that’s good.

Steve: Yes.

Carrie: They can be a little talkative. But I wanted to bring you on the show. Every year we usually do a podcast together around our anniversary, so- Mm-hmm … happy six years early. Yes. And we’ve talked about all kinds of different things for those who haven’t been around a while. Way back on episode 10, before I even officially had a podcast, we recorded an episode together about our dating journey, and then- Mm-hmm

we recorded some ones later on for, like, our first and second anniversary ’cause we had just so many things that happened in the first few years of our marriage, lots of some sad stuff, but God’s redeeming those things. Mm-hmm. So anyway, I thought that for this season, I really wanted to do an episode just encouraging the Christian singles out there who are in the messiness of dating, ’cause we both dated each other.

We were full-grown adults, and I was 36, and you were-

Steve: 82.

Carrie: No, 45- … when we met. And so we had kind of, you know, been around for a little while, kind of dated. You got set up with some people. I met some people through meetup groups, dated here and there, and done the online dating thing. We’ve had some experience in this area, and definitely we both have a heart for single people in the church because you were single for probably- Ever

close to 20 years at least. Yeah. And in between, and I was only single for about four years, but it was a long four years in between getting divorced and then meeting you. Mm-hmm. It was a rough time. It can be very lonely for single people- Sure … in the church. We try to watch out for single people, and Steve is forever inviting the new single people he meets-

at church to sit by us. I don’t think they’ve taken us up on it.

Steve: Not one of them has yet. I think they think I’m a weirdo or… I say more to the guys. If I’m talking with a female, I’ll say, “My wife is right there, so you can come sit with us if you like.” Try to explain a little, but I try not to do it in a way that makes them feel like a big sympathy case or something.

Carrie: Yeah, and eventually if they stay around and take the time to get to know us and our story, they’ll understand- Sure … kind of why we try to target, in a way- Right … like, in a good way, target-

Steve: Right …

Carrie: single people in church and watch out for them because it can be very lonely when you’re in a environment obviously that’s promoting families and children and you feel like, “Okay, I don’t quite fit into this realm-

Steve: Right

Carrie: that’s being promoted.”

Steve: Which was almost always. You always have that in the back of your mind. There are a few extroverts, I don’t think anything bothers them.

Carrie: Mm.

Steve: But for the not so extroverted, it’s often awkward. I can think of different things, specifically at church with the family gatherings or you go to a…

I don’t even know if they do this much anymore, but some churches probably do, but the dinner after church, the lunch after church, and everybody kinda will sit with their family, and you’re like, “Boy, I gotta find a place to sit And usually I found somewhere, but it, that could be a challenge at times, so.

Carrie: And so many people want you to get married in the church- Yes … or they want to try and set you up with somebody, or maybe they don’t really know, like, how to help you along on that journey-

Steve: Yeah …

Carrie: of, okay, yes, I do want to be married, but what does it look like to support someone who’s single? And so you may need to even just educate some people, especially if they got married young and they’ve- Mm-hmm

been married a long time, of, like, how they can support you. And I think that’s one thing that I wanna bring into this episode, is to say I think it’s really healthy and helpful if you’re single to get around some married people. So often we go to church, and we’re just in our little silos, and the married people are with the married people, and the moms are with the moms, the elderly people are with the elderly people.

And one of the beautiful things about church is that we have the opportunity potentially to be so intergenerational and to learn from different ages and- Mm-hmm … stages and walks of life. Sometimes when you just have all the single people siloed together, there can be some unhealthy dynamics within the church, and I’ve seen that in the past and have heard from others.

Have you seen that as well in church?

Steve: Y- yes.

Carrie: Um, sometimes there are people in there that don’t know how to relationship, or there’s some significant brokenness, and they can be kind of bleeding that out onto other people, and it would be helpful to have, whether you’re that person or whether you’re another person, be helpful to have somebody kind of come alongside you and help with healthy relationship skills.

What do you feel like if you could give kind of one top recommendation for the Christian singles out there who say, “Hey, I wanna be married,” but it’s kinda like the Wild Wild West out here, it’s a bit of a nightmare, what advice or encouragement would you give to them?

Steve: Don’t be desperate. Don’t do that.

That’s good advice. Because that’s the best way to get yourself in a mess. Mm-hmm. You take the first one that comes along or the one that is most attractive to you from the outside, and you never figure out what they’re like on the inside or whatever. And be patient. God knows what you need. You don’t have to rush the process.

And I can’t tell you how many times from people in church I would hear, “Just, dude, she’s single, you’re single. That’s the perfect reason to get together, right?” That’s like, no. But take the time to get to know them, and make yourself a list of this is what I have to have. She has to be a Christian, or for girls, for the female audience, he has to be a Christian.

Do you want children? Do you want… Figure out those things that you’re musts, and then your other things like, “I’d kinda like it if they weren’t taller than me,” or whatever those things are. But can you get past that? I mean, those are- Those are a

Carrie: little

Steve: bit more- … secondary …

Carrie: minor.

Steve: And then if you’re really hung up on, “Oh, no, they have to have blue eyes,” well, you’re probably gonna be single for life because those things are probably your hangups.

Carrie: I think that there’s a sense of having certain standards. Yeah. And as a Christian, I think this podcast audience really draws a certain level of people who aren’t just casually about their faith. They’re really trying to seek someone who’s in the Word, who is, has spiritual practices- Right … who’s praying- Right

who is in church. And I know that, like, when you take that list of what you’re looking for in a spouse, and you pray through it, like, there’s something really powerful about that. And I don’t think this principle just applies to looking for a mate. I mean, I think it can apply to looking for a job. It can apply to looking for a house.

Like, praying through specific things that you’re looking for, and then when you see those things, like, bam, there it is. Like, this is the exact thing that I’ve been praying for, and I see it now. And so one of my prayers was for a man who loved the church because when I was single, we actually took a picture one day, a Sunday morning.

There was, like, a whole row of single women, and we were like, “Where are the single guys here?” Yeah. “Where are they? They’re not in church.” Or they would come to church maybe casually every once in a while. Like, I just didn’t see the dedication to the body of Christ. Yeah. So when you and I started talking, in one of our early conversations, you were, like, leaving a church event that you had volunteered at, and I was like, “Oh, this is a good sign.”

Like, it’s a good start. And then I started learning more about, like, your involvement and past involvement and present involvement in the church, and I was like, “Oh- Mm-hmm … this is the kind of person, like, I wanna be connected with.” I don’t wanna be linked up with somebody that on a Sunday morning is like, “Yeah, let’s just sleep in, honey.

I don’t really feel like going today.” That was an important piece that I had specifically prayed for. Were there things that you remember that you specifically prayed for in a spouse?

Steve: Yeah. I say that ’cause I’m trying not to be funny, but truthfully, I hope she can cook. And you can. You’re a great cook. Uh, but I say I hope because I didn’t want that to be the hang-up.

If you were a terrible cook, it would’ve still been okay.

Carrie: You just got extra blessed.

Steve: I got extra blessed. Aw. That’s right. But yes, there were definitely the fact that church was important to you, that you understood missions to some extent because you had been on a mission trip before. I’d had people tell me, “Steve, if you only take your time off of work to do mission trips, how are you ever going to take time to be with a girlfriend?”

And I thought that was ridiculous, but I heard that a lot. But that’s my calling. I mean, if whoever I’m supposed to be with, she’s gotta be okay with missions, period. That was a big prayer, too, and of course, you’re very supportive of that.

Carrie: Yeah, and I had been on a couple while I was single. That’s a really interesting thing.

I got divorced, and I went having foster children, having a husband, having these responsibilities, having a job, you know, where I had to take time off from, and then I landed in a season where I was self-employed, so I had more freedom and more flexibility and time, and I didn’t have the family responsibilities.

And I said… It was, like, the year that I got divorced, I didn’t go on a mission trip that year. I went the, the following year. But I remember processing and saying, like, in my time with the Lord, it’s like, “What excuse do I have at this point? I literally don’t have any excuses except for maybe financial.” I wasn’t in, like, a stellar financial space, but I just had really supportive family members who helped pay for that trip and sent out support letters, and it was like, bam.

Mm-hmm. It was there. Yeah. And so I just say that also to encourage the single people. It’s like make the most of your season- Yeah, absolutely … whatever

Steve: God is

Carrie: calling you to do, and that’s really what the Bible tells us. Mm-hmm. It’s like, okay, you don’t have those family responsibilities, like, to your immediate household.

See, like, how can I use this extra time in service for the Lord? And we know it’s also challenging today’s day and age just being a single person and providing for yourself, too, so we understand that ’cause we both had multiple jobs at different points, like-

Steve: Yes …

Carrie: when we were single.

Steve: And I think, too, on that, when you’re taking that season to do the things that you feel called to do, do them, and be diligent because the person that you’re looking for and hoping for and praying for is going to see that.

That’s what’s going to attract them. Much like with you, you wanted a Christian, and when you were looking at my profile, you and your family noted that I did missions. Now, had I not taken the time to do those missions while I was single, we may have never gotten together. You might’ve looked and said, “Man, that bald dude is way too old for me.”

D- um-

Carrie: Just imagine a picture of Steve with a bunch of- … non-white children all around him, and- … and you’re like, “Yeah, that’s pretty much a mission trip photo right

Steve: there.” And that’s important. That was what was important to me. So do what’s important to you, and whoever you’re looking for, that’s maybe how they’re gonna find you.

They’re gonna see a picture of you or a, I don’t know, they’ll hear about you or something doing what it is you love and what God’s called you to do.

Carrie: I just wanna say too, I think that people say, “Well, how gonna meet this person?” Here’s how you’re not gonna meet them. You’re not gonna meet them by going to work, going home, shutting yourself in your house and watching Netflix, and never getting out and meeting people.

I, this is coming from an introvert, guys. I am actually an introvert. Like, I love people, but they also can be really draining at times. I’m going to a networking event this Thursday, and it’s, like, I enjoy it, but I’m dead by the end because it’s a bunch of new people I don’t know, you know, really well.

It’s a bigger people. It’s loud in there. There’s a lot going on. I know some people have different feelings about online dating. That’s how a lot of people are meeting now. But even when outside of online dating, I mean, you go to church, like, if you have any kind of social groups that you’re a part of.

Maybe a lot of the young people are playing pickleball now. We’ve talked about this. So maybe you can meet somebody on the pickleball court. You can meet somebody at a bowling alley.

Steve: A lot of the young people. You’ve hit that age, dear

Carrie: When you’re in your 40s- 40s … 20 feels really young. Yeah, sorry, Dad.

Sorry. There’s different ways. I went to meetup groups. There was a Christian singles meetup group, and I actually kinda sorta went on a couple dates, few dates through there. Nothing that ever stuck or any… We did end up meeting online, but I think that there are a lot of different ways to meet people, and even if you say, “Oh, but everybody around me is married.

Everybody at work is married. Everybody at whatever club you’re in, they’re all married,” that’s okay because if you make your intentions known to those people, just put it out there and say, “Hey, I’m looking to date. If you know anybody, because you know me really well, and so if you run across somebody else that’s single that you think that I would really click with, then I would be open to at least talking to that person.”

Now, that doesn’t mean that it’s

Steve: gonna

Carrie: work out. Yeah You know,

Steve: if it’s not- And you don’t have to tell everyone that. Just because-

Carrie: Right …

Steve: the sweet old lady at church has a daughter or granddaughter doesn’t mean the daughter or granddaughter’s a sweet person, too. You can get in a lot of trouble that way, and some people, they may be the nicest of people, but they don’t align with you as well.

So be careful on that because maybe you work with somebody who’s not a Christian, but they have the best of intentions. “My neighbor or whoever would be a good setup for you,” and then you find out that they’re something terrible, or they’re just maybe not terrible, but they don’t line up at all with what you want, and then you’ve gotta go explain to your coworker or whoever it is, “No, we don’t match.

I’m sorry.” And it’s an awkward conversation.

Carrie: Yeah, I know that you experienced more setups than I did. Oh

Steve: my goodness, yes.

Carrie: I think I had some recommendations, but I don’t think I ever went on, like, a date from somebody setting me up.

Steve: Let me tell you, I would go to church, and there was at least one time that I can think of, no, twice, where someone brought their niece, and another time someone brought their, I think it was their granddaughter, to church specifically to meet me.

Do you know how awkward that is? That’s a lot of pressure.

Carrie: So let’s go into the actual dating advice-

Steve: Mm-hmm …

Carrie: then. When you’re in these initial get-to-know-you experiences, first of all, even when we were dating and now, there’s a lot of texting that happens. Yeah, mm-hmm. So I just wanna talk about texting for a moment because that’s not the best way to get to know somebody.

You can kind of hear some things here and there, but obviously- You’re missing tone of voice- Right … you’re missing eye contact. Text messaging is great for like, “Hey, can you pick up some milk on the way home?” Yeah. It’s not really the best for getting to know- No … or, “Hey, can we meet at 5:00 PM at the local restaurant?”

Steve: Well, everything may sound great on the text, and then you meet them and you find out that, oh, they are… Maybe sarcasm isn’t your thing, and you find out everything they say is sarcastic or whatever the case may be. You’re not really getting to know them through a text.

Carrie: Well, and sometimes they don’t look like their picture.

I had that happen. They

Steve: never do.

Carrie: Uh, yeah. At

Steve: least with me. And that, I don’t say that negative- Me … in a negative way.

Carrie: Sure.

Steve: But-

Carrie: I think this person only had one picture, too, so I think had they had multiple pictures- Yeah … I probably would’ve gotten a better… And so then when I saw them in person, I was like, “Oh, man, I’m not really as attracted to them as I- Right

thought that I was going to be.”

Steve: Everyone puts their best facade up, how they want you to think of them.

Carrie: Right, and I’m sure it’s probably worse now because with AI and different things, people can probably- Oh, my goodness … slim out the areas they don’t like.

Steve: That’s funny.

Carrie: So I would say don’t spend a ton of time texting back and forth.

Try to see if you can get something either to a phone call or an in-person coffee shop meeting so that you can actually have some face-to-face time to get to know that person- And taking it slow is a really huge thing. I broke one of the advice rules that I was given- … about not having long phone calls when we were talking initially.

So that was my bad. But I was advised not to have super long phone calls and super long conversations. Hmm. And because you really want to get to know that person on an interactive level. How do they handle things that frustrate them? You’re looking at, like, do they get emotional easily? Or, not that that’s a bad thing, but it’s just, like, things you want to kind of understand.

Do they keep everything- Right … under wraps or kind of try to hide or skirt certain issues you wanna talk about? So those types of things, how they treat other people, how they’re interactive in group settings, how they are around church versus when they’re at the coffee shop versus when they’re with their parents.

I mean, like, there’s different dynamics that you wanna see. And also, you want these things to just un- be able to naturally unfold over time. I think especially for people who are struggling with OCD, it’s like they wanna know right now. They wanna have some certainty. Mm-hmm. Am I gonna marry this person?

Am I not? And I think some of the reason for that is they hear these stories. Your dad has this story of he saw your mom, and he was like, “I’m gonna marry that woman.” Yep. And that wasn’t my story. I don’t think it was your story. No. For many, many other people, I would say that’s atypical. It does happen to some people.

Sure. It does work for them. Sure. Your parents are still together. But for most people, you don’t know, like, right away, like, “Oh, yes- No … I’m gonna marry that person.” All you need to know at this point is, “Do I wanna keep talking to them? Would I go on another date with them?” That’s pretty much all you need- Yeah

to know in the very early- Yeah … stages.

Steve: And do your homework. It’s not that you’re stalking them, but do your homework because you might find something out after you’ve been dating for a good while that, oh my goodness, or maybe that’s a bad example. Maybe-

Carrie: No, there was a guy that I went on- Mm-hmm … a few dates with, and I found out he was a smoker.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: And that was, like, a total deal breaker for me. Yeah. And I couldn’t believe it ’cause he never smo- I was like, man, he hid that really well ’cause he never smelled- Yeah … like cigarette smoke. I mean, I don’t know what the extent of his smoking habit was. Maybe he just did it, I don’t know, casually in the evenings or something.

But I found that out, and I was like, “Oh, gosh.” And I was immediately… I never followed up or we just- Do your homework … cut communication at that point.

Steve: I would say, though, in doing your homework, I don’t think sitting at their job, hunkered down low below the steering wheel watching them. That’s stalking.

Don’t do that. Don’t do that. But if you wanna go look up social media and see if they’re on social media- Do it. If you go to get a job, they’re gonna look up your information. They’re not supposed to, but they will. Maybe that’s too far, I don’t know, but find something out. I

Carrie: think ours was kinda funny because we met on Facebook Dating.

Yeah. Like, so we met on social media, so then

Steve: when we- The only successful couple. I’m just kidding.

Carrie: When we put a picture up, like our first picture that we were dating, so many people commented and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, Steve’s such a great guy. Like, that’s so wonderful. Like, we’re so happy for you.” So it was just really sweet to see.

We got, like, validated in a way that I feel like we wouldn’t have- Yeah, that’s right … had we not been on social media, but you can’t trust everything you see- Yeah … on the internet. However, like you want to be around, get to know their friends over time, have them get to know your friends. And for me personally, I didn’t mind doing that pretty early because there was a guy that…

I just kind of invited people into my normal phase of life, and I think it probably depends on how you meet them. This was a person that I had met in person at a Christian singles meetup, and I invited him to my friend’s son was having a football game, we were all gonna go, and then we went out to dinner afterwards.

It was just kind of a casual thing, and that, like, blew up the relationship. Like that one date, he didn’t think I was paying enough attention to him. He nitpicked the whole thing.

Steve: Hmm.

Carrie: And I was like, “This doesn’t sound great.” And I went and followed up with my marriage coach people. And I said, “Did something wrong?

Like, what happened here?” And they were like, “No, this is not okay.” I was like, “Okay, well.” I found out pretty fast that that person I think struggled with some relationship skills and some expectations that weren’t communicated- Hmm … and all those types of things. So you pray that people are able to be, the ones that aren’t supposed to be there are weeded out pretty quickly, and that you’re able to go in eyes open and see that.

But so many times, to really get to know somebody’s character, this is true for friendships, to really get to know somebody’s character, it just takes time.

Steve: Takes time. You know? Yeah. One of the questions I got often was, “How is it possible that a guy like you,” not sure what that meant, “is still single? It’s been a long time, Steve.

What’s going on here?” You can just imagine the comments I got from that. Hmm. But my reply to them was, “I’m just waiting for God to tell me, ‘Hey, this is the right one.'” Yes, you have to put yourself out there. Yes, you have to date. But I didn’t wanna be desperate, and I always felt like- Whoever the girl that I was dating was, or whoever the right girl would’ve been, Miss Carrie- ‘Cause that’s not what I called you, Miss Carrie.

That, that’d be creepy. But, like, you hearing that, which you didn’t ask that, I don’t think, but I think that’s almost a compliment. Like, I’m waiting for the right one, and maybe you would’ve thought, “Oh, he’s been waiting on me all this time.” Whatever. I don’t know.

Carrie: How I thought about it was I was like, “How in the world is a man who loves the Lord like this, and who is a responsible human, and nicely dressed,” I was like-

“How in the world is this guy still single? He’s attractive.” I was like, “I’m gonna bag this guy up.” “I’m gonna cook for him real good.” Yeah. “I’m gonna win him over.” Like, you know.

Steve: And you did. You did a good job of it. But I also worked a lot. I didn’t put myself- Yeah … out there all the time. But I was picky. I was, in a good way, though, I think.

I don’t know. Some people said, “Steve, you’re way too picky.” But a lot of the people saying that were saying that when I lived in a small town before I moved to Nashville, and they would say things. I don’t think it’s too picky to ask for a Christian. I don’t think that’s… In fact, I think that’s-

Carrie: That’s, that’s biblical.

Steve: Yeah, that word. And one that everything didn’t have to be perfect, however, I wanted a good Christian. I wanted someone responsible. I don’t know. I wanted her to go to church. Those things were important to me. If that makes me too picky, then maybe being single would’ve been okay, too. That was my take on it.

Carrie: Yeah. And I say, too, as far as, like, it takes time because if somebody is dealing with something like an addiction, like I’d said, even the cigarette situation, you, like, you may not know. Like, they may kinda hide that for a long time. Sure. Somebody could be in a wreck of debt, and you’re not gonna know that right away.

Mm-hmm. And so I know sometimes people with OCD, what I’ve seen, like, have some relationship obsessions, they can get really obsessed about time as well. Like, “I don’t wanna waste time doing this.” But I would say even in these relationships that don’t work out, like hear me on this, God’s still using that for your good.

Mm-hmm. And God is still teaching you things through it. Yeah. And through that process. So don’t see it as wasted time. You’re learning how to be in a relationship. You’re learning how to discern. You’re learning to listen to God. You’re learning to take healthy, godly feedback from other people in your life, and all of that is really valuable.

I think to that end, if you are a person who says, “Hey, I have a bunch of debt,” or, “I have problems with pornography,” or, “I have communication issues, I just fly off the handle really quickly,” we all have the stuff, like, that we have to work on. Mm-hmm. And being single, you can still work on relationship skills even if it’s not your season to be in a relationship.

Maybe God has told you, “Take a year off.” You’ve got no business being in a relationship. You don’t need to be dating right now. I probably jumped back into dating earlier than I should have after my divorce. I think I needed a little bit more time to heal, but I think other people around me were kind of like, “Yeah, move on.

You’re good.” And they didn’t really know kind of the depths- Yeah … of some things that were going on. The first time I tried to date after the divorce, it did not go well because I think I wasn’t in a good space, and I don’t think I would have stayed in that relationship as long had I been at a healthier place.

I would have said, “Hey, we’re not really a match. This is not really gelling,” ’cause we weren’t really a good fit. Mm. So just kind of like being self-aware and knowing, like, how can I become the person that my person is looking for? How can I grow closer to God and work through some of these issues in my own life so that it doesn’t become a stumbling block when I do get engaged and married?

Because it’s an issue now, it’s gonna be an issue later.

Steve: For sure. Right after my divorce, I made a deal with myself that I would not date for two years, and the first year was to kind of heal, and the second year was to find myself again, to figure out, well, now who am I? And let me tell you, those first two years, I had more opportunity to date than the next 18 years I felt like.

And I thought, “Lord, what kind of deal is this? I’m missing every single… Like, wow, was this the right decision?” But in the end, I was so happy that I did that, because it made me a stronger person. And again, like I said to start with, don’t be desperate. I think it would’ve been a desperate measure on my part just to not be single.

Finding the right person isn’t gonna be found by desperate. Like, I don’t wanna be single is never a good thing for dating.

Carrie: I wanna say, too, that just be careful about how you’re communicating with… When you’re in the early stages of dating, this is what females tend to do. I don’t think males tend to do this, but females are like, “Oh, you went out with somebody?”

Like, “Tell me everything that happened. Like, how did he eat with his fork?” I mean, it was just like all kinds of things and, you know- Hmm … “Does he want kids, and what about this?” And sometimes I’ll be like, “We haven’t gotten that far yet. Like, I don’t even know the answer to that question.” You know, people would just wanna know everything and pick apart everything they said and did.

Sure. Which is a horrible thing to do when you first meet somebody because you’re not at that comfort level where you feel like you can be yourself. You’re both a little awkward still, and you want to just kind of take it easy. So I would say don’t go to all of your single… If you’re a lady, don’t go to all, all your single lady friends and start psychoanalyzing the guy.

That’s probably one of the worst things for you to do, especially if you have OCD, ’cause it could bring up some obsessions and things that you’re gonna get really stuck on- Hmm … that could hinder that dating and relationship process. Yeah. And you don’t wanna do that.

Steve: And it’s not wrong to talk about the date with someone.

Yeah. Just the psychoanalyze part, I think.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: It- ‘

Steve: Cause I know that I had- Not good … a pastor that would ask me, “How’s the dating life, Steve?” And that was so awkward With the pastor, but he was genuine. He really wanted to know. And as a whole, I don’t think guys really sit around, like, talking that way in the same amount of depth and detail-

Carrie: As the females

Steve: as the females. I know that I was different. I was pretty guarded. I kept things pretty close. I’m still kinda that way, so I don’t tell everything.

Carrie: I kind of alluded to this, that I essentially had some really great marriage mentors in my life at the time. They were involved in the singles ministry. They had been divorced.

Both had been through some rough divorce situations, and they had gotten remarried. BJ and Christine were their names, and I’m just so thankful for BJ and Christine, ’cause I could go to them, and they had already been through what I had been through, so I could walk them through some things that I was experiencing, and they learned a lot in their own dating process.

They would definitely tell you that. And I could say, okay, they could be very objective with me. Also, when you’re getting advice from people like your parents, they’re super invested, and they’re not gonna give you that same objectivity. Mm-hmm. So it’s nice if you can have, take your, uh, dating advice from marriage people, people who are already married or who have been through some of the things that you’ve been through so that they can lead and guide you in that process.

And I hope that you and I can do that for somebody who someday just- Yeah, I hope

Steve: so …

Carrie: be able to speak into their healthy dating life of just take things slowly, take it one day at a time. Don’t try to jump to any conclusions about anybody. We get into trouble when we jump to conclusions and we make assumptions.

I mean, that still comes up sometimes- Yeah … in our relationship. I’m like, “Well, you think this, and you were trying to do,” and you’re like, “I wasn’t even trying to do that. What

Steve: are you talking

Carrie: about?”

Steve: Well, and too, I would say if you meet someone, and you have, like you said, those mentors in your life or someone, like you wanna introduce them to your parents or your grandma or whoever, on that first date, that thought might wanna go through your mind.

Like, those who I really admire and trust-

Carrie: And respect, yeah …

Steve: are they gonna be totally disappointed with this choice, and why? Because it’s like if they think it’s something minor, “Oh, I don’t like her hair,” or whatever, eh, you can get over that, but they’re not equally yoked, those kinds of things, then that’s probably not a good choice for you.

And a lot of that stuff you’re gonna know just from talking even before the first date. Those are definitely things to think about.

Carrie: I want to really wrap this up and to just provide some hope for people who just wonder, “Am I ever gonna get married? I just feel like everything you’re talking about, Carry, I’ve been through it.

I haven’t seen a man that’s passionate for the Lord,” or if you’re a guy, “I haven’t seen a woman who’s passionate for the Lord. I’ve gone on all these dates, but it doesn’t make it past two or three because there’s some kind of deal breaker issue or something that I just know I can’t be connected with, or they’re not willing to proceed for one reason or the other.”

Yeah. What hope would you kinda give to people? ‘Cause you waited a long time.

Steve: I waited a very long time, and it wasn’t like I just sat back and did nothing. I definitely was in prayer about it. I tried to remain positive. And everyone, I think, wants that stereotypical, “We’ve been married for 75 years,” and blah, blah, blah, and I was like, “If I’m married 75 years, I’ll be 100 and…

Yeah, that’s not happening.” That’s not even realistic. I think the better way to look at it is, “Okay, God, you know who the one for me is.” And I pray that I do my part, that I keep myself right for her. When I spend my money, am I going into debt? Because if I’m going into debt, she might not want me now because I’ve got all this debt.

Or being naughty in some way, she’s not gonna want me. Or ladies, I guess I would say the same for you. That person is not gonna necessarily be as attracted to you when you make those poor decisions. So just be patient. Again, don’t be desperate, and just know that God has the one for you.

Carrie: I think, I would say God’s timing is perfect.

I read, actually, like, a book about recovering from divorce, and they had recommended in there different timeframes that people recommend. And they said, “It really probably gonna take you about four years to heal,” and I just chucked the book across the room. I was so

Steve: mad.

Carrie: And I was like, “I can’t wait four years.

I’m not gonna be able to have a kid if I wait four years. Like, I’m gonna be too old,” and this and that. And God knew, like, what I needed, and God knew the process that I needed to go through as a single person. And God uses all your pain for good. Right. So now, like, that’s why we semi-stalk the single people at church.

No, I’m just kidding. We’re, we’re just like, “Hey, you can come sit with us.” But I think it’s important. If we hadn’t have been through that pain of being in the church and having to sit by ourselves- Mm-hmm … or, like, feel awkward when there was, like, family gatherings at church- Yeah … or things of that nature, we wouldn’t have the heart that we have now for single people.

Sure. And had we not been through what we’ve been through, wouldn’t be able to speak into this podcast the way that we are right now. So just understanding that God sees your pain, He knows where you’re at, and He’s gonna turn it around and use it for good. I do believe that if you have a desire to be married, there’s, that desire is in you for some reason, because I’ve certainly met plenty of people that they’re like, “No, I’m good.”

They’re like, “I don’t need to be married. I’m happy where I’m at-” Mm-hmm … like, with my singleness. And that- That’s

Steve: great …

Carrie: that’s fine, too. But I think sometimes people can say, like, “I have this desire to be married, but maybe God just, like, doesn’t want me to be married.” Yeah, no. And I’m like, but you have that desire for a reason.

Right, right. There’s some reason that God has made you.

Steve: Some people are called to be single, but-

Carrie: Sure …

Steve: not all of us are called to be single. You just have to be patient and know that He’s gonna make the perfect setting for you, and the perfect timing, and the perfect da, da, da, da, da. But I think it’s important to just always remember who you are, who do you need to be, what has God made you to be, and keep that right.

And there’s nothing wrong with it. Like, Carrie had a married couple in her life to ask questions. Find those people, maybe at your church or whatever, that you really admire their marriage. I know I had a older couple at church that they were the happiest two people I’d ever met in my life. And they had been on a mission trip or two with me, and in their 70s and still holding hands.

Like, they were just dating. It’s not like 70-year-olds can’t hold hands, it’s just the way that they were giggling and joking, you would have thought they were in their 20s. And I thought, “I want that. That’s great.” So I’d ask them questions. “What’s this?” Or, “How do you do that?” Or, “How did you guys find one another?”

“Do you never argue? What’s the secret? What’s in the sauce?” And there’s nothing wrong with asking those questions because That’s how you grow.

Carrie: Yeah, I mean, we have, like now even at this stage that we’re in where we’re, like trying to figure out how to disciple our daughter on a daily basis, like how to be the parents that we wanna be, man, we have people at church that we look up to.

Yeah. And we’re like, “Those people right there, look at their kids.” Yeah. “They’re respectful, they’re kind, they’re serving the church.” Like, that’s what we wanna follow that path with. Yeah. That’s what we want our daughter to be like.

Steve: Yeah. Which made me think of something else. Don’t be afraid if they’re younger than you.

They’re married and younger and doing well, and they’ve been married for a while, and they’re living a good biblical marriage, ask. Don’t think, “Well, gosh, I’m older. That can’t be right.” No.

Carrie: I think part of the challenge that I’ve heard from people is, oh, it’s almost like the older single people, now they know some people their age that are married, but they’re not in happy marriages.

They almost feel kinda hopeless a little bit too of, “I don’t see that. I don’t see people who are happily married. I just see this destruction or this pain,” or, you know- Mm-hmm … have seen family members, maybe they, they’re coming from a family where the parents were divorced once or twice, and they don’t really have a healthy modeling of relationships.

And I think- Yeah … that’s why building these bridges between the generations in church and making those connections is so important and-

Steve: Yeah, absolutely … so

Carrie: valuable.

Steve: And don’t let that fear guide you. Think, “God’s gonna set me up with the best. I’m gonna be the best,” and roll with that. Because if you let that fear guide you, you might as well not even look, ’cause the fear is gonna outdo the reality in that case- Yeah

you know, if you let it build.

Carrie: I think sometimes people live in a denial, or they have this magical thinking of, “Well, yeah, I see that he has a little bit of problems with this or maybe that.” Mm-hmm. “But, oh, I’m gonna marry him. I’m gonna change him. He’ll grow out of it,” da, da, da, da. Whatever’s going on right now, once you add marriage to it, and especially children, it’s just gonna amplify.

Yeah. And it’s gonna get bigger. So if you’re starting- Yeah … to see some yellow flags, and I think seeing how that person responds who you bring to that forefront where you say, “Hey, I’m concerned about this,” that’s huge.

Steve: Yeah,

Carrie: for sure. You know? I think that that’s a huge turning point. Is it something where they’re moving in a direction of progress to better themselves?

Or, like, are they growing in that area? Are they taking care of business? Or are they at a place where they’re like, “Oh, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s not a huge problem.” “Oh, you’re making something out of nothing” or gets defensive, then I think that that’s definitely something you wanna watch out for.

Steve: And if they won’t pray with you, that’s another one. Maybe not on the first date, but if they- Later

Carrie: on down the road.

Steve: Yeah, later on down the road, you ask, “Hey, can we pray together?” And they’re like, “No,” that might be a-

Carrie: Did you have that happen to you?

Steve: No, but that was in my mind as one of my musts, that even on the first date if I go to pray for lunch or something and they are totally against that, that’s a deal breaker.

Like, “Okay, well, we’ll finish lunch. That was good. Nice to know you.” I mean, thankfully, that didn’t quite happen, but it didn’t happen with you, but still, that’s something to consider, those kinds of things. ‘Cause if it’s really important to you now, it’s gonna be heartbreaking later if you ignore it.

Carrie: Yeah.

And it’s much easier when you’re in a dating phase- To, especially early on, to walk away than it is when-

Steve: Yeah …

Carrie: you’re getting engaged or when you’re married. Obviously, you don’t wanna be walking away at that point. Yeah. You want to make sure that you’re connected with the right person and that it’s somebody that you have things in common, that you’re moving in the same direction.

Mm-hmm. You want the same things. Thanks so much for, uh- Yeah … hanging out with us on the couch today.

Steve: With the cats.

Carrie: With the cats, and unfortunately, we didn’t have, I don’t think, too much noise interference. No. But love all of you guys, and hope that this was helpful for single people- Yeah … out there. We’re gonna have an upcoming episode for the married people on what if you’re married to someone with OCD.

Mm. If you made it through the episode for single people, or maybe you’re single and you’re interested in that, then definitely tune in for that episode in the future. All right, bye everybody.

Steve: See you guys.

Carrie: Hey, if you love the podcast, I know you’re gonna love our email newsletter. It is sent out once a week on Wednesdays when we have new episodes come out.

It’s an opportunity for me to share little devotional thoughts with you about what God is teaching me, and those on our email list are the first to know about things happening with the podcast. So if you’d like to be an email insider, all you have to do is go to carriebock.com and sign up for our email list.

Steve: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith and OCD

Carrie: is a production of By The Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

245. Why Relationship OCD is Complicated and Hard to Treat 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores the challenges of relationship OCD and how it can affect the way people experience and navigate their relationships.

Episode Highlights:

  • What relationship OCD looks like day to day, from replaying conversations to checking your feelings for proof
  • Why “is this love?” and “am I attracted enough?” can never be answered with certainty
  • How outside voices, Hallmark expectations, and past relationships get pulled into the doubt
  • Why mental compulsions like rumination and internal checking are so easy to miss
  • What kind of approach may help when ERP hasn’t fully scratched the itch

Episode Summary

What Is Relationship OCD and How Do You Know If It’s More Than Normal Doubt?

Every relationship has moments of worry. Did I say the wrong thing? Did I offend someone? But OCD takes those moments and turns them up until they stop being grounded in reality. I talk about how this shows up with spouses, dating partners, coworkers, and even your kids. I also share the sneaky compulsions I see most, including some that look like being responsible.

Why Can’t You Just Figure Out If You Love Someone Enough?

Here’s the trap. OCD asks you to measure something that can’t be measured. There is no love-o-meter. There’s no finger clip that gives you a reading on attraction. I walk through why the checking makes the anxiety louder, and why you tend to find exactly what you’re afraid of. There’s a term from iCBT for what your mind creates in those moments, and it changed how I explain this.

How Do Hallmark Movies and Mixed Advice Make Relationship Anxiety Worse?

Pull up the internet and you’ll find advice for every side of every question. Even within Christian circles, people hold very different views on how marriage should work. OCD grabs all of it and uses it as hearsay evidence. I share a bit of my own story here, plus what love actually looked like for me on an ordinary Tuesday night. It’s not what the movies promised.

Can Past Relationships Make Relationship OCD Harder to Overcome?

Sometimes your history becomes the case file. A parent’s marriage. A painful breakup. A divorce. OCD says, “We’ve seen this before, so it will happen again.” I open up about dating after divorce and how scary that felt. I also talk about what to do if you’ve never had a healthy relationship to copy.

Why Do Mental Compulsions Make Relationship OCD So Hard to Treat?

Rumination doesn’t look like a compulsion from the outside. Neither does endless googling or feeding your whole relationship history into an AI chatbot. I explain why I’m cautious about that last one, and why more information usually leaves you more frozen. I also share the approach I believe fits these mental loops best, and why it may help when other treatment left you still stuck.

Press play and stay with me to the end.

244. Revisit: Christian Integration of Acceptance and Committment Therapy 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie revisits her past conversation with psychotherapist and author Ingrid Ord about acceptance and commitment therapy, this time adding the insights she’s gained from five more years of working directly with OCD. 

Episode Highlights:

  • Why avoiding anxiety just makes it spread wider and wider, and what psychotherapist Ingrid Ord says actually happens once you stop arguing with the thought
  • Carrie’s own take on why OCD therapy often misses attachment wounds and unbuilt confidence, not just symptoms
  • Where ACT hits a wall for moderate to severe OCD, and which evidence based tools Carrie says have to fill that gap
  • The backpack and purple man metaphor Ingrid uses with clients, carrying anxiety along with you instead of wrestling it into submission
  • What Ingrid’s book, Act With Faith, offers Christian clients and therapists, and why people far outside her original audience have picked it up

Episode Summary: 

Can Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Really Help Christians With OCD?

This is a revisit of one of my earlier conversations with Ingrid Ord, five years after it first aired. I wasn’t primarily working with OCD clients back then, so this time around, I’m adding fresh commentary from where my practice stands now, layering new insight over the original interview. As I look at Acceptance and Commitment Therapy today, I’m struck by how many of its principles connect with the Christian life, particularly when it comes to learning to live with uncertainty, discomfort, and things we cannot control.

Why Trying to Avoid Anxiety Actually Makes OCD Worse

One of the things Ingrid and I talked about was how natural it is to want to get away from anxiety as quickly as possible. But when avoiding that anxiety becomes the goal, the temporary relief can reinforce the cycle and make the fear harder to face. I think this is especially important for people with OCD because compulsions can feel like they’re solving the problem when they’re actually keeping you stuck.

Why Do OCD Intrusive Thoughts Often Target What You Care About Most?

I think one of the most powerful ideas we discussed is the connection between OCD and our values. I’ve seen how much shame people can experience when their intrusive thoughts seem completely opposite to who they are. But what if the very things that feel most threatening are connected to the things you care about most? Understanding that distinction can begin to change the way you relate to those thoughts instead of treating every obsession as a reflection of your character.

How Can You Keep Moving Forward When OCD and Anxiety Are Still There?

Ingrid shared a metaphor I really liked, which is imagining your difficult thoughts and feelings as something you carry in a backpack rather than something you have to get rid of before you can live your life. I also wanted to bring in a broader perspective from my work with OCD, including the ways trauma, attachment wounds, confidence, and other experiences can influence the anxiety picture. For me, this is a reminder that OCD treatment isn’t always just about reducing symptoms.

How Does ACT Connect With Christian Faith and Trusting God?

This is where I think ACT gets especially interesting for Christians. Ingrid and I talked about how accepting difficult experiences doesn’t have to mean giving up hope or believing God cannot change our circumstances. For me, there is a tension between accepting what is happening today while still believing God can do something different tomorrow. Learning to live in that tension has shaped the way I think about suffering, contentment, faith, and trust.

Can You Take Action Even When You’re Afraid?

I don’t think faith means we will always feel courageous before we take the next step. When I look at people throughout Scripture, I see people who experienced fear and uncertainty but still moved forward in obedience. I think that connects beautifully with the idea of committed action in ACT: knowing what matters to you and choosing to move toward it even when uncomfortable thoughts and emotions come along for the ride.

Listen to the full episode for the deeper conversation with Ingrid Ord and my updated thoughts on where ACT fits into OCD treatment and Christian faith.

243. Why You Don’t Need to Be Afraid of Your Emotions or Your Body Sensations 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores why emotions and body sensations are not something to fear as a Christian, reframing them instead as data and opportunity for connecting with God.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why fear and shame are the only emotions God doesn’t experience, and what that means for how you process your own feelings
  • How anger, sadness, and guilt can each become useful signals instead of threats
  • Why suppressing emotions often backfires and leads to resentment, addiction, or shutting down completely
  • A self-defense inspired technique for handling overwhelming body sensations like panic and anxiety
  • What arousal actually means when OCD tries to twist it into evidence against you

Episode Summary

Why Does God Let You Feel So Much, Even the Hard Stuff?

I get asked all the time why emotions feel so overwhelming for Christians with OCD, like something must be wrong if you’re crying or angry or scared. But when I look at Scripture, I see a God who grieves, who gets angry, who wept at a friend’s tomb even knowing what He was about to do. Emotions were never the problem. What we do with them is where things get complicated, and that’s exactly what I unpack in this episode.

Is Your Anger Trying to Tell You Something You’ve Been Ignoring?

So many people I work with were taught that anger is dangerous or sinful, especially if they grew up watching it turn into something aggressive or abusive. But anger carries information, and shutting it down completely doesn’t make it disappear. I walk through what happens when we treat anger as data instead of a threat, and why some of you might be more scared of your own anger than you realize.

Why Do the “Doers” Struggle the Most With Sadness?

If you’re someone who wants to fix things immediately, sadness probably feels unproductive to you. I share why that instinct to rush past sadness into problem solving actually keeps you stuck, and how a season of heartbreak in my own life became something God used in ways I never expected. There’s a version of sadness that changes everything, and I don’t think most people give it the chance.

What Happens When You Never Learned How to Talk About Feelings Growing Up?

Some of you grew up in homes where emotions were dismissed, punished, or just never discussed at all. I talk about how that shapes the way you relate to your own emotional experience as an adult, and why those old patterns tend to resurface in ways you might not connect back to childhood. This is one of those pieces that quietly explains a lot more than people expect.

Can You Actually Calm a Panic Attack by Leaning Into It Instead of Fighting It?

I bring in a surprising analogy from self-defense training to explain why pulling away from a scary body sensation almost always makes it worse. There’s a specific way to roll with anxiety, arousal, and panic that builds real distress tolerance over time, and I break down exactly how it works, including where arousal fits into this conversation for those of you who’ve felt shame or fear around it because of OCD.

If you’ve ever felt like your emotions or your body were working against you, listen to the full conversation,

Transcript

 Last week we talked about why you don’t need to be afraid of your thoughts as a Christian. This week I’m talking about why you don’t need to be afraid of your emotions and body sensations as a Christian. I want you to see emotions and body sensations as data and opportunity. So we’ll talk through each of those and come back to that idea throughout this conversation. Welcome, OCD warriors to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast, where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories, and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace. I’m Keri Bach, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode You were created in God’s image, Genesis 1:27. And part of that being created in God’s image means that you have emotional experience. God is grieved, we are sad. God gets angry, we get angry. Just about the only emotional experience that God doesn’t have is fear or shame. God’s not afraid of anything. He’s not ashamed about anything. However, when you look at the Gospels, you’ll see that Jesus experienced an intense amount of physiological anxiety in the Garden of Gethsemane. It wasn’t necessarily fear, but there was a physiological anxiety that was happening that Jesus experienced. So He understands our experience of that emotion, even though He doesn’t feel that. There’s nothing for God to be ashamed of. But when we look at these other common emotions that we all experience, these are emotions that we’re sharing with God. Joy, love, happiness, these are things that we can see in Scripture, times where Jesus had dinner with His disciples, and it sounds like there was joy when you look at the wedding at Cana where He did His first miracle. There was a sense of sorrow and sadness where He wept with Mary and Martha because Lazarus had died. And more so, that was empathizing with their pain because He knew that He was gonna raise Lazarus from the dead. So we have all these different examples in Scripture of God or Jesus experiencing emotion, and then, of course, people that were following Him experiencing intense emotional experiences. Emotions should be welcome experience as a believer. I want you to see emotions and body sensations as data and opportunity. So we’ll talk through each of those and come back to that idea throughout this conversation. Emotions and body sensations are data. We don’t have to act on them, and we don’t act on every one that we experience. We’re gonna talk about arousal because that’s very difficult for some of you to experience. You don’t really have a tolerance for that, or it feels shameful or sinful if you get aroused. It may happen, and you may decide that you’re not gonna act on that. And a lot of times it’s good when we don’t act on that because we have all kinds of different misfires and things that can happen. We’ll talk about that a little bit later. But I know that some Christians really struggle with emotional experiences like anger because maybe they had a family member that didn’t handle anger in an appropriate way. Maybe that person was aggressive, abusive, and it just really turned them off to the emotion of anger. I would say that anger can provide a lot of information for us. Anger, it may tell us, “Hey, maybe I need to talk with that person. That hurt my feelings.” Maybe not. Maybe I need to pray through that and choose forgiveness and recognize that, hmm, if I bring it up with that person, it’s probably not going to go well. They’re not going to take responsibility. These are things that you have to tease out, right, when you experience anger. We don’t need to be afraid of anger or always associate it with negative things like violence, which sometimes can happen when you have something like harm OCD. “Well, I can’t get angry because that means that somehow I’m gonna turn it into violence.” That’s not necessarily the case. Just as we don’t act on every thought, we don’t act on every emotion that we experience, we don’t act on every body sensation that we experience. But we can take that data, and then it’s an opportunity to bring it to God. So if I get angry because someone hurt my feelings, I can say, “God, I’m really mad about this. I just really wanna say some unkind things, but I know that’s not what you want me to do, so how do I handle this situation in an appropriate way?” But that anger might be the data point that tells me maybe I need to set a boundary with this person. Maybe they need less access to my life so that they don’t continue hurting me over and over and over. And that’s something that you can pray and process through about that specific relationship with the Lord. So it’s an opportunity to bring these things to Him and to receive godly wisdom and guidance. If we just shut it off and say, “Oh no, anger’s bad, can’t feel that,” when we stuff emotional experiences, typically what happens is they actually linger around longer. They end up becoming resentment, or we turn them towards ourselves and we say, “Well, I’m bad for having this feeling. I shouldn’t feel this way.” So we don’t wanna do that. We want to experience the emotion, allow it to flow through us, and process it in a healthy way with the Lord so that we’re not stuck in emotional experience for too long. Another emotion that I’ve seen Christians struggle with is Sadness. They say, “Ugh, sadness isn’t gonna change anything. If I cry about this, that’s not gonna do anything.” It doesn’t feel productive. And I work with a lot of people who are doers, and so they want to feel like, hey, it’s all about doing something about this. It’s all about jumping in and problem-solving. And what’s a really healthy skill to develop is that sometimes we need to take some time to process and to feel something before moving into problem-solving. Sadness can be actually a very productive emotion. It’s letting me know that something needs to be tended to here. It’s like a plant I have in my office that its leaves turn a little yellow when it gets too much water or too little water. So I have to kind of assess and say, “Hmm, that’s interesting. The leaves are turning yellow. They’re starting to fall off. Do they feel dry? That means it’s not enough water. Oh, no, they feel a little different when it’s gotten too much water. I can see that there’s water. The top is still wet. Maybe the roots are still wet.” Need to hold back on the watering there. So sadness tells us, like, “Hey, my heart is hurting,” and it’s an opportunity, once again, to bring this to the Lord, to say, “Okay, God, I am heartbroken about this.” And it could be that thing that launches you into action at times. For example, I mean, this podcast has certainly changed and shifted and grown since I started it several years ago, but through this process of talking with so many Christians struggling with OCD, God has really broken my heart for this community, for you guys. It’s brought me to tears at different moments just seeing the suffering. I believe that’s just the Holy Spirit’s work in my life of being able to empathize with people who are suffering. And even though I don’t have OCD myself, like, I have dealt with other related things like perfectionism and shame in my past, and so there are pieces of the story that I’ve struggled with my view of God in the past being harsher. So there are little bits and pieces that I understand, and God has really given me this heart. And even though it’s weighty at times, I’m very thankful for it because it also makes me feel very passionate about what I do and putting these hopeful messages out into the world on the podcast, through the internet where people can find it that need support and encouragement. And I’m so passionate about the book that I’m writing and feeling like it needs to be out in the world. So even though this is something that maybe started with some sadness, like, there’s many good things that are coming and flowing out of that emotion. So I don’t want to quelch that or some people might look from the outside and say like, “What is that about?” Or be confused by it. But it’s just aligning with God’s heart and being able to share that with other people. God definitely, like we’ve talked about at different points on the podcast, I have other things that I feel God has given me a heart for foster care, being one of them as a former foster parent, single people in the church, some of these connected to my own experiences. But sadness really can be a beautiful thing that God uses your pain and your suffering for good, and He takes ashes and creates beauty out of them. Never underestimate the power of sadness and how God is going to use that in your life. But like I said, if we just try to avoid all things that make us sad, which is really pretty hard, we’re gonna end up being more distressed internally. What can happen that I’ve seen as well is when we suppress one emotion, sometimes we end up getting stuck in another emotion. So for example, and this is, uh, highly stereotypical and not- True, what I’m about to say is not true of all men and not true of all women, but for a kind of masculine stereotype, sometimes men can get stuck in anger because it feels very empowering for them, and they do not fully express some of the sadness underneath that anger or other emotions that may be connected, fears, insecurities. And so the anger piece gets really stuck because they haven’t expressed the other emotions underneath. Females can under-express anger sometimes, and that leads them to get stuck in fear and anxiety. Fear, sadness, and anger often run together, so if you’re feeling one of those things, it may be worth asking yourself, “Do I feel the other emotions as well?” I have met several Christians dealing with scrupulosity who have little tolerance for the emotion of guilt. Guilt is a healthy emotion because it lets us know that we need to repair our relationship with God and others. But once we have taken those steps and done that and really thought about, “What was my contribution to this broken relationship and how can I repair it?” Once we have confessed our sins to God or to other people, then we don’t need to continue to hold on to guilt. We don’t need to wallow in it. If we do that too much, then it becomes shame, it becomes a part of our identity. So we want to be able to move through that emotion, but just understanding that that emotion in itself is healthy. If we never felt guilt or never felt bad about anything that we did wrong, then we wouldn’t have that opportunity or that push towards repair. So don’t be afraid of the feeling of guilt, and also know that guilt doesn’t mean that I’m somehow separated from God, so don’t use it as, like, evidence that somehow God has left or I’ve been bad and now God doesn’t want anything to do with me. That’s not what guilt means. It just means, “Hey, I have sin to confess. I need to take care of that.” And then once that’s done, it’s important to move forward. Sometimes people will say they feel guilty about something like, for example, “I feel guilty about not helping that person.” It’s like you really didn’t do anything wrong in that scenario. Maybe you weren’t able to help that person because of your own financial constraints or your own time constraints. Maybe you didn’t help that person because it’s something that they really need to do on their own, like helping would become enabling. So when people bring certain things that they feel guilty about, I may say to them, “Guilt is for when you’ve done something wrong. So you’re using the word guilt, but is that really the right word here? Is that– Does that make sense for this situation?” And typically, I think there are some other emotions involved or some other thought processes involved that are worth exploring for people. You may be afraid of your emotions if you weren’t taught how to deal with them in a healthy way. For many people, when they were growing up, their emotions were dismissed. They were told things like, “Why are you making such a big deal out of that?” Like, “That’s not a big deal.” Maybe you were punished for your emotional experience like, “Hey, you’re crying. Like, I’m gonna give you something to cry about,” or you’re angry, but you’re getting in trouble because you’re angry. Not because you acted out of that anger, but just the fact that you were mad about something. That teaches us to have an unhealthy relationship with our emotional experience. Okay, it’s not safe to have emotions in this family system, so I’m gonna try to hide those emotions. I’m gonna, like, believe that they’re bad. I’m gonna suppress them. And then they end up coming out sideways as emotional experiences do. They come out as an addiction to something. They come out sideways as just learning not to feel at all, which causes problems in being able to connect in intimate relationships. So that’s not good. We want to really recognize, like, if you have trouble or if you feel like you’re scared of your emotional experience, it might be worth exploring, like, hey, where did that come from? What was the language about emotions growing up? I know in my family there wasn’t really a whole lot of talk about emotions. We didn’t talk about those things. I don’t think they talked about those things in my parents’ generation, so then they didn’t know how to talk with their children about emotions because they never got those kind of emotional intelligent conversations. Some of you may have pushed your emotional experiences down because someone else in your family had really big emotions and it was scary, uncomfortable, or there just room for your emotional experiences. For example, Mom was locked in her bedroom, depressed, laying in her bed. No one could go to Mom and say, “Mom, I miss you. Mom, I need you. Mom, I’m worried about you because you’re depressed.” It was just like, okay, Mom’s emotions just kind of took over at that point and she didn’t know how to express her emotions in a healthy way. So then you never learned how to express your emotions in a healthy way. Maybe you were in a situation where Dad came home angry every day, hating his life, didn’t like his job, took it out on the kids, and it was like, Dad’s coming home. He’s really angry. Let’s stay out of his way. Hide. There was nobody to process your feelings about Dad’s anger episodes. So before you rush in to problem solve or fix emotions, which is what a lot of people with OCD do, right? “Oh, I feel uncomfortable, don’t like it, go into my head, try to solve this problem. What is this problem the emotion’s creating, and how do I just fix it?” It’s good to take a pause. How do I actually feel right now, and can I sit with that for just a moment and acknowledge to myself how I feel? Oftentimes we have to acknowledge it to ourself before we can share it with someone else, whether that’s a spouse, a friend, a loved one, therapist. How do I actually feel about this? And you may get con- stuck if you feel conflicting things. Conflicting emotions are really common, so I just want to normalize that. Let’s say, for example, that you were caring for an elderly parent and that parent passes away. You may feel a sense of deep sadness and loss about the parent passing away, but then a part of you may feel relieved because there was so much energy that went into caregiving, and now your body’s able to relax a little bit more. That’s totally normal and okay. You may have a child that you love deeply, but you’re also super frustrated with their behavior and feel like you’re at the end with them. There may be some intense sadness over their behavioral choices. There may be anger and also fear, like, what’s gonna happen to them in the future? I can’t control their behavior. All of that probably very normal for your experience. So just being able to name these emotions, being able to normalize them. If you search for a feelings wheel online, it’ll show you kind of some different emotions and then give you some emotional language for the nuances beyond just the happy, sad, scared, mad-type feelings. And that may be really helpful for you if you’re just starting to feel like you have the language to talk about your emotional experiences. So acknowledging that to yourself. Here, what’s the data? Where’s the opportunity in this situation? How can I just let myself say, “Okay, this emotion is an emotion. I don’t have to judge it. I don’t have to do anything about it. I don’t have to fix it.” That’s where just kind of like being mindful in the moment happens, just kind of like laying it out on the table. What’s going on here? What am I actually experiencing? And then when we bring that to God and we filter that through prayer, through the Word of God, where we find like healthy ways to be able to cope with these experiences, whether it’s taking a walk, soaking in the bathtub, getting a massage, journaling, breathing. There’s so many things that we can do to healthily cope with our emotional experiences. Obviously, we want to reach for healthy coping strategies, not alcohol and drugs, not pornography, overeating. And if you are struggling with some of these things, it’s okay. That’s part of your process. God understands, and you can get help for all of those things. And probably part of that help that you’re gonna need is developing healthier ways to Cope with your emotional experience. It’s not just about stopping something, and that’s where I think if you’re dealing with one of these things, yes, you can put all of the safeguards on your computer and your phone so that you don’t look at pornography. You can have accountability. You can do all of these things. But at the end of the day, you’re still gonna have to deal with, what do I do, like, when that urge comes up to utilize that? What’s the function of that behavior in my life? And I think too oftentimes we just say, “Oh, I need to cut out the alcohol,” or, “I need to cut out the pornography,” or, “I need to stop overeating,” but we don’t actually do the work ahead of time. Like, we don’t peel back the layers. We don’t examine, like, how we got there in the first place. And if you’re able to do that, it helps you develop self-compassion. Oh, we didn’t have language for how we felt in our family. We didn’t have good ways of coping. I watched my mom overeat, and so that was a way how I learned how I could deal with my own emotional experience. Doesn’t resolve the problem for you, but it does help you know kind of how did I get here, and then how can I shift into a more positive way to cope with my experience? You may be afraid of your emotional experience due to some teachings in the church. Now, I’ve talked about this in the past, but this whole concept of like, “I’ve gotta fight my feelings with faith,” and I don’t like that language at all. I don’t find it to be very helpful because I don’t feel like our faith and our feelings have to be in opposition to each other. Really go read the Psalms. People just poured out their hearts to God. They were a hot mess express like we all are at different points in our life. And they used those emotions as opportunities to bring them before God. “God, I’m mad. I feel like my enemies are triumphing over me. Where are you, God, in this situation? God, I am heartbroken. My soul is just crying out to you. I feel emotional death inside.” So read through some of those psalms and just the deep and intense emotion and anguish and know that God can utilize your emotional experience to connect with him as an opportunity, as data for you to look at in the whole picture. We don’t make decisions just off of our feelings, but sometimes they can provide some data that we can then shift through, bring to God, and look at how to handle the situation in a healthy way. All right, now let’s talk about body sensations. I know that many of you really struggle with the body sensations that come up related to your OCD. You may feel panicky. You may feel high levels of anxiety. Your heart might be racing. You have difficulty breathing, feel throat constriction, muscle tension. All of these things are really common connected to obsessions. Some of you really struggle with arousal, and so I wanna bring that into this conversation as well. Let’s face it, when your body feels out of control, it’s not fun. You don’t like it, and a lot of times we rush to try to get out of that uncomfortable feeling. It feels really intolerable. So we wanna talk through some ways that you can roll with it and work your way through those uncomfortable body sensations without feeling like you have to suppress them or immediately get rid of them. Want to help you be able to develop something called distress tolerance, and that comes from dialectical behavioral therapy, or DBT for short. And it’s important, like we all have to build this skill of distress tolerance because we’re going to experience things at one point or another in our body, sensations that are oftentimes connected to either thoughts or emotions, and they’re uncomfortable for us. I’ll tell you that just going through perimenopause and trying to get things balanced out, there have been some mornings where I’ve woken up, and I’m making an assumption here that my cortisol was really high, but it felt like I had four cups of espresso, and I had zero coffee, so I was just wired to the max. Obviously, that doesn’t feel great, okay, if you’ve ever experienced that type of sensation. So I had to figure out, okay, obviously I didn’t choose this. I don’t want to be in this state, so how do I deal with it in a healthy way? Sometimes when you have a lot of energy, it can be helpful to match that energy. Instead of me just saying, “Oh, I’m super anxious, uptight, I need to just, like, breathe,” that can be really hard in that moment. Sometimes that may be helpful, but it might be more helpful for you to say, like, “Okay, let me match that energy maybe and take a brisk walk. Let me do some jumping jacks or lift a little bit of weights or do some push-ups so that I’m matching that level of energy that my body’s already feeling, and it might cause it, and then slowly, gradually slow things down so that I can get to a more regulated place.” If you’re having an uncomfortable feeling or body sensation, you wanna be able to acknowledge that to you and to God, just as we talked about before, kind of acknowledging your emotional state. Acknowledging, “Oh, I’m feeling this body sensation. I feel wired. I feel panicky. I feel like I’m on the brink of having a panic attack.” Being able to acknowledge that to yourself and to God The second step is don’t control, roll with it. Now, I’m gonna give you a analogy from self-defense training. It’s been a little while, but I’ve had some training in self-defense. Not an expert here, but I can tell you a few things. If somebody grabs you by the wrist, for example, your initial inclination is to pull away. Like, I’m gonna try to pull as hard as I can away from this person. But actually, the best self-defense happens close to the aggressor. So if I push my arm, kind of like if I move towards that person, oftentimes I’ll have a better chance of getting my wrist free, for example, or I can do certain, like, twists of my wrist in order to get it loose. However, I still have to be close in order to be able to do that. I learned some kinda how to disarm some weapons, knife and gun situations, and obviously that would be very terrifying in the moment. However, once again, in order to be able to do that, I actually have to be close to the aggressor. So we’re, we’re thinking about this as a way to, okay, I feel something uncomfortable. My initial response is to run and go, “Ugh, I don’t want to feel this body sensation. I’m gonna try to pull away.” But when I try to pull away, suppress, control, it actually once again can cause more problems. So I wanna figure out, like, how do I lean and, like, roll into this in a way where I’m not fighting and pulling But I’m finding ways to, like, regulate my nervous system and slowly be able to calm myself down. So like leaning into that which is uncomfortable. We’ll give you some examples. You’re starting to, like, feel your anxiety rising. First of all, if you’re dealing with panic or high anxiety, it’s helpful for you to know like what some of those precursor responses are because I know that people can panic pretty quickly in response to certain triggers. But if it’s a slow situation where, hey, I’ve already been kinda tense and then it gets to this panic state, you need to be able to recognize what those lower levels of anxiety feel like in your body instead of just ignoring them completely. So you wanna have that body awareness of how does your anxiety show up, how does it build, what does it feel like, different steps in that process. And then if you can deal with it at a lower level, obviously that’s helpful and beneficial so that it doesn’t get to a higher level. However, when you start to feel that, okay, what can I do? Can I engage in some sensory grounding experiences where I find different things that I can see? Maybe I look for my favorite color in the room, find everything that’s my favorite color in the room. Maybe I start engaging in some, like, mental activities that take a lot of effort. Like if I’m stuck on an obsession, maybe I can engage in some higher level math or counting activities. Start at a hundred, count backwards by seven. You really have to think about it when you do things like that. This can tax your working memory. We use this sometimes in EMDR 2.0 as it’s called and what we find is that as you’re, like, taxing that working memory, your brain isn’t able to focus as much on the stress level. So that’s just kind of some different things that you can try. Maybe you think about something that’s calming for yourself to kind of bring some of that body sensation down in engaging in breathing many different ways. Maybe you kind of shift state out of the panic by using things like sour candy that helps you get back into that rest and digest. When– Smells are basically the fastest pathway to your brain is my understanding, that sensory pathway. So if you have calming essential oils you can put on your wrist or jewelry where you can smell that invokes a calming response. Basically, we all have this fight, flight, or freeze system and the rest and digest system. You do have the ability to calm your body down. It’s just a matter of tapping into that rest and digest system, finding easy pathways to get there. You can do this. It’s possible. It’s not good for us to be in that fight, flight, or freeze state for long periods. We want to theoretically get into it only when we really need it for survival and then be able to get out of it And one of the best ways to build distress tolerance is mindfulness I know that some of you are like, “Carrie, I am so tired of you hearing about mindfulness and beating us over the head with it.” I say it ’cause it’s important. You need to hear it. You need to practice it, and you need to live it. The present moment is the only moment that we have to connect with God. God exists outside of time, but I don’t somehow connect with God in the future. I can’t connect with Him in the past. I only have this present moment, and just everything that we’ve been through with my husband and his just rare diagnosis, people really can’t give us good predictions about what things are gonna be like in the future. And if we try, we end up catastrophizing, and it doesn’t go well. So we’ve just had to, in our household, learn to live one moment at a time, one day at a time, and what is my husband able to do today in this moment? How is he feeling? What are his needs right now? I can’t fully plan for everything he’s gonna need in the future because we just don’t know. Only God holds the future. And so I choose in this moment to trust God with the future moments. So this moment is the only one that I can do anything about right now. So if you’re able to really be present in the here and now, it keeps you from catastrophizing about the future. It keeps you from living in past regret, sin, shame. The past a lot of times can make us feel a variety of feelings that are uncomfortable. So learning to really hone in and be here in the here and now, and even just noticing, “Oh, I’m in the future right now. This thought I’m having is a futuristic thought. Oh, I’m not in the present. I’m not really here with what’s going on. I’m thinking about the past and something that I wish was different about the past.” It’s really not helpful for me right in the here and now. So the more that you’re able to start to shift back to the present and be mindful, that can really help increase your distress tolerance of what’s going on, and not fighting with the actual present moment of what you’re experiencing. Okay. For those who are hanging around till the end wondering what I’m gonna say about arousal, there’s a few things. One, I know that for some of you, the experience of arousal is really uncomfortable. That may be because its arousal has come up at times where you didn’t want it to. If you have POCD or you have HOCD, you’re like, “Oh no, my arousal system has come up at times where I was around children or someone of the same sex, and it really freaked me out.” OCD used it as evidence. “See, you’re really attracted to the same sex,” or, “Oh, see, you’re really attracted to children. You’re an unsafe person. You’re a monster,” et cetera. All that nonsense that OCD is trying to feed your brain. But what you need to hear is that obviously our brains and our bodies are in communication All the time. What’s gonna happen if I have a physical sensation, say like a headache, and I say to myself, instead of just the headline of the situation is, “I have a headache.” I don’t know about you, but I don’t know, always know why I get headaches. Sometimes I’m like, “Did I sleep funny with my neck? Did I get enough water today? Am I stressed?” There are 500 reasons probably for having a headache, but if I jump to this conclusion of like, “Oh my gosh, I have a headache. Maybe I have a brain tumor. Maybe this means I’m about to die,” then of course like now I’m all ramped up, right? I’ve told myself this story, and now my head starts to hurt worse. I’m like, “Oh, great. Now I’m about to get a migraine and be knocked out for the whole day.” And then my body is like responding. It’s like, “Oh, okay, like this is really bad, isn’t it?” And then my headache gets worse. It’s this loop that our body is in. So if you are scared of arousal and you go, “Oh, no, like what if I go into church and, and like get aroused” Or, “What if I am around somebody in the gym of the same sex and I get aroused?” Then your brain is like, “Oh, we’re thinking about sex. Like let’s have a physiological response to that.” And so it becomes just like the headache and the brain tumor, it becomes this cycle where it’s a misfire of your brain. You don’t want to be aroused when you’re around somebody of the same sex, but then it happens, and then OCD uses it as evidence. It gets bled back into the story. It just becomes basically a gigantic mess. It’s important to recognize that. And now understand, too, let’s talk about other times of arousal where maybe you get aroused, but you do not want to act on it. No, that’s a different story. Say I see someone attractive, and I get aroused, but I go, “Oh, whoa, like pump the brakes here.” That doesn’t mean that I have to act on that arousal. If I find somebody attractive, that doesn’t mean I’m gonna go sleep with them. It means like, “Whoa, hey, let me like redirect my attention here. I am happily married. I do not need to engage with anybody else, and I can redirect that.” Sometimes I will have single people that I’m working with that are very distressed by their arousal and of normal, typical, everyday arousal because of conversations or shame that’s been laced around sexuality Certainly if you have heard some of my story that I did on the podcast, I think it was a shameful sexual themes where I talked about really being damaged by purity culture, then you know that I understand kinda where you’re coming from with some of that discomfort surrounding sex. And what I would say to you is congratulations, you are a warm-blooded male or female. If you’re getting aroused and at various times due to people that you’re attracted to or desire to be in a relationship or wanna date, that is a normal human experience. God created you as a sexual being, and so we need to acknowledge that, and we need to have some feelings of being okay with our body and the responses that are coming up in it. Once again, like, we get to choose how we filter these responses, the meaning that we make about them, and we don’t act on everything that we experience in our body. We don’t have to make meaning about everything that we experience in our body. If you feel weird pains or you have health OCD and you have different concerns that come up, what I would say is we don’t have to create a whole entire story surrounding that. Now, if you have symptoms, like I said, that I was experiencing with perimenopause, sometimes it’s helpful to jot those things down and bring them to a doctor and say, “Hey, these are some things that I might be experiencing, do I need some blood tests? I’m having a lot of heart palpitations. Okay, are you having those when you’re anxious? What’s the context? Things get worse, better, et cetera. Those would be a healthy way of kind of like taking care of those body sensations. Obviously, when I was talking about the headache example, it’s a different story if I have a headache every once in a while versus I’m getting a headache every day, or I’m getting massive migraines that I’m having no relief from. Obviously, please seek medical help and attention for symptoms like that. And having a lot of symptoms can make you anxious or depressed because our mental health and our physical health are very connected. So I don’t want to give you this sense of, “Ah, just ignore all body sensations, they’re probably OCD.” No, some of them could be legitimate. We don’t know. That’s why we have to kind of jot things down here or there, monitor the situation, see what’s going on. Thankfully, I’m in a better place with my brain and my body and my hormones, I think, right now, so I’m not waking up super charged and anxious like I was for a time period. So I think something has, has regulated out a little bit. But it was scary and unnerving for the period that I experienced those things. Hey, I hope that this information has been helpful for you. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. If you are on YouTube, please leave us a comment. Let me know what you think about this video and other questions that you have that might be helpful for me to know. You can also contact me on keribach.com. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area. 

242. Why You Don’t Need to Be Afraid of Your Thoughts as a Christian

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores why Christians with OCD do not need to fear intrusive thoughts and how understanding the difference between thoughts, desires, actions, and identity can loosen the grip of scrupulosity.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why having an intrusive thought does not mean you will act on it
  • How mental compulsions like rumination, rebuking thoughts, repeated prayer, and neutralizing can keep Christians stuck
  • Why OCD can attach frightening meanings to thoughts about faith, relationships, harm, or sexuality
  • How ICBT helps distinguish intrusive thoughts from your true desires, values, and identity
  • What Scripture says about the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ, and your identity when OCD tells you something different

Episode Summary

Do Intrusive Thoughts Mean I Have Sinned as a Christian?

I’ve seen how one statement from a pastor, spiritual teacher, or trusted person can get lodged in the mind of someone with OCD and suddenly become a source of intense spiritual fear. In this episode, I unpack the idea that “all sin starts in the mind” and explain why Christians need a more thoughtful understanding of intrusive thoughts, especially when scrupulosity turns an unwanted thought into evidence that something is spiritually wrong.

Why Do Christians With OCD Feel So Guilty About Their Thoughts?

I often work with Christians who are doing everything they can to get rid of unwanted thoughts, whether that means rebuking them, repeating a prayer or Scripture, replacing them with something positive, or mentally reviewing them over and over. Some of those responses may look spiritual on the surface, but when they become compulsive attempts to relieve anxiety, they can keep the OCD cycle going and make us increasingly afraid of what is happening inside our own minds.

Does Having an Intrusive Thought Mean I Secretly Want It?

One of the most painful tricks of OCD is convincing us that a thought must reveal something about our true desires or character. I talk about why thoughts, desires, and actions are not interchangeable, how ICBT understands egodystonic intrusive thoughts and phantom sensations, and why the meaning we attach to a thought can sometimes become even more distressing than the thought itself.

What Do Intrusive Thoughts Say About My Identity in Christ?

OCD may whisper that a disturbing thought means I’m secretly bad, not really saved, or somehow outside the family of God, but that feared version of myself is not where I want to anchor my identity. I return to Scripture, including 1 Corinthians 3 and the truth that God’s Spirit dwells within believers, to explore what changes when I view my imperfect brain through the finished work of Christ rather than through the accusations of OCD.

Can Christians With Scrupulosity Ever Find Freedom From Intrusive Thoughts?

When intrusive thoughts and rumination have been present for months or years, hopelessness can start sounding convincing, but I don’t believe the length or intensity of the struggle gets the final word. I share why there is still hope through appropriate OCD treatment, professional support, ICBT principles, and the spiritual truth that believers have the mind of Christ and are still being transformed by God, even when their brains produce thoughts they never asked for.

Listen to the full episode to discover why intrusive thoughts don’t define you and what God’s truth says about who you really are.

Transcript

For those of you who don’t know, I conduct intensive therapy, and sometimes people will travel out of state, come visit me in Tennessee for a few days, and we’ll work very intentionally on trauma that is contributing to OCD symptoms or childhood woundings Different things that may be really exacerbating OCD symptoms, and then we’ll integrate inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, into their treatment process. So someone came to visit me a while back for one of these, and they said something that a pastor said that got stuck in their mind, and it got me really thinking a lot. And this is common with OCD, as you’ll hear something from a pastor, spiritual teacher online, maybe a parent, and it just really gets stuck. And then OCD utilizes that stuck thought, maybe a true thought, maybe a not true thought. But it gets stuck in your brain, and then OCD will misuse it in your own mind against you. So this thought that someone got stuck on was, “All sin starts in the mind.” And of course, that can create some hypervigilance over someone’s thought process. Now, as I’ve reflected on this, I think that there’s a lot of sin, at least in my own life, that’s impulsive, that maybe I should have thought about, and had I thought about it, I wouldn’t have engaged with it. So I don’t know that I agree with this statement or this argument that the person was teaching or making. However, I wanted to talk today about why, as a Christian, you don’t need to be scared of your thoughts. And I think that this is an important point, and I want to make it spiritually and psychologically for you. So if you’re kinda new to hanging out with me, that’s what I love to do, is really integrate psychological principles with truth from the Bible and things that God has shown us through His Word, and how those integrate with what we know on a psychological, emotional, and mental level. Now, a lot of Christians have been told to be really careful about what you think because thoughts turn into actions. And we’ll talk a little bit more about this later, but that’s not always the case. Sometimes our thoughts turn into actions, but many times they don’t. I’ve known many Christians with intrusive thoughts who may have had an intrusive thought for months or years without ever acting on it. So let’s talk a little bit about what an intrusive thought is. An intrusive thought is something that you don’t want to think, you don’t desire to think, you wish it wasn’t there, and probably you’re jumping through all of these hoops in some way to manage or get rid of the distress associated with the thought. So you may have mental compulsions like rebuking a thought, saying a short prayer, saying a scripture. Some of these things you may have even been taught in the church to do to handle thought processes. You may try to neutralize it with thinking of a positive thought or positive image, or you may just ruminate on it and get stuck in the same thought circle going round and round. That’s actually pretty common. So these are all mental compulsions that I see with a lot of Christians that I work with, is oftentimes they may not have physical compulsions related to scrupulosity. Although some people can get into things like hand washing To help manage their thoughts as well. So if you’re engaging in any of those behaviors, just know that I’ve also seen that happen as well. You were created with a mind, but you also have the Spirit of God inside of you to lead and guide you as a Christian, full stop. How crazy is that? Like, I mean crazy in a good way. How wonderful and amazing is it that as believers, we have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God living inside of us. I do not understand this. This is something that I have to embrace the mystery on of our faith. And I will say as a side note that this is really helpful for Christians with OCD because you’re not gonna understand it all. It requires faith. I’m totally mind-blown. You can’t contain God, so how is it that God somehow is contained in our body? Or how did the God of the universe enter a womb? The womb is so small. God is so big. Anyway, blows my mind. I could go on and on for that, but I believe it by faith, and I just think it’s incredible, and I believe it because the word of God says so. And I wanna read this verse to you, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17. You probably heard some of this before, but I want you to really look at it in a new way in the lens of your intrusive thoughts. “Do you not know that you are God’s temple, and God’s Spirit dwells in you?” This is what we were just talking about, right? “If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.” You’re probably thinking, “What? I’m a holy temple? That doesn’t make any sense.” I can tell you my body’s imperfect, does weird stuff, has aches and pains, doesn’t always do the things it’s supposed to do. I mean, if you know, you know. We get headaches, we get stomachaches, sometimes we get really sick, sometimes we have broken bones. I mean, all kinds of things happen to our body, right? And our brain is part of that bodily system, right? So even though my body itself is imperfect, God is calling it holy as His temple. Now, it’s not anything that I did. I could eat all the vegetables, love some good vegetables, especially if they’re fresh. I can do my little mini trampoline workouts and lift some weights and do all these things, right, to help my body. But that’s not why my body is holy. My body is holy because of what Jesus did in the finished work on the cross. It’s not anything that I did. Once again, amazing. God has chosen to put His Spirit in us to dwell inside of us, and so we don’t need to be afraid of what is happening inside of our brain. You don’t need to be afraid of these intrusive thought misfires that are happening. So let’s talk about thoughts and their relationship to actions. Just because you have a thought doesn’t mean that you’re going to act on it. Everyone has intrusive thoughts regardless of if you struggle with OCD or not. I’ve shared a little bit about some intrusive thoughts that I’ve had. Most of mine involve a phobia of heights, and so I’ve definitely had intrusive thoughts about falling from a variety of places. When I used to go walk the running track at the top of the Y, I would have visualizations of me just toppling over the railing and falling on somebody that’s working on the treadmill. It’s totally ridiculous, like would not happen. I can identify that as an intrusive thought. Obviously, I have no desire to fall from anywhere, and I think that’s, it’s just my brain’s, like, safety mechanism in overdrive. I also wonder if some of that is a little genetic, ’cause I’ve had other family members that have been afraid of heights. Who knows? Regardless, I’ve had intrusive thoughts about driving my car off the road on a bridge into some water. I certainly haven’t acted on any of these intrusive thoughts. I had an intrusive thought about falling out of a window in a really high building ’cause it had these really big windows. Lots of things. Certainly didn’t act on any of those visualizations and certainly didn’t want to have any of those visualizations, ’cause they’re quite scary when you think about falling from high places and not surviving or being seriously injured, which is typically what can happen. Let’s talk about some more common thoughts that you haven’t acted on. So have you ever thought about skipping work or school and not done it? You’re like, “I could just, like, call in today and not go to this job.” Maybe you don’t wanna deal with the boss. Maybe you don’t wanna deal with the customers, coworkers, whatever it is. You’re like, “Oh, I could just so skip today.” But couple of things, you probably need a paycheck. You gotta pay your bills somehow. You’re thinking, “Hey, I gotta stick with this until I can get something else.” You may have some of those thoughts and not act on it. You could say, “I could just roll over and not go to my first class today, but that’s probably not the best idea ’cause I probably need to be learning what’s in there so that I can pass the test later. I might actually need this information for the final exam or to complete some type of project.” I would say those thoughts are probably pretty common for people. We’ve all had that at least once, all right? I had some of those 8:00 classes in college. I was not a fan. I get up early now, but I did not get up early then. I did not wanna go to class that early, was not fully awake yet. Have you ever thought about eating something, but you didn’t do it? Maybe you went to a restaurant, and you’re like, “I really want those french fries, but I think I’m gonna order the side salad instead. I’m gonna try to stick with my health goals.” Maybe I really want to eat this whole pint of Ben & Jerry’s right now, but I’ve decided that’s really not gonna be a good idea. I’m gonna get a stomachache. Not gonna feel so good. So let’s not do that. It’s very common for people who are married to notice other attractive people that are out just walking in the world, going to the grocery store. This can really freak out people who are dealing with OCD, any type of, like, sexual or relationship themes. If they see an attractive person, they may go, “Oh no, that means I don’t love my spouse,” or, “Oh no, that means maybe I wanna leave them,” or this is gonna transfer over into some type of lustful thought. So I may see somebody out in the world as I’m going about my day who’s an attractive person, and I don’t have to make any meaning out of that. I can just be like, “Oh, moving on. I’m married. Not gonna pursue that thought. Not gonna do anything about that thought. Not gonna take it any one step further or start daydreaming about being with somebody.” It’s like, no, I’m married. I’m happy. I’m moving on. I don’t need to entertain this. We have thoughts all the time that we do not act on Let’s say you get angry at someone, and your initial urge may be like, “Ugh, I really wanna be mean to that person. I wanna yell and scream,” but I walk away. I don’t. Maybe somebody just really pokes you and tries to goad you into an argument. You’ve probably met some of those people, right? Like, they really try to get you going, and you just walk away. You’re like, “No, I’m not giving into that anger and what I’m thinking about doing right now. Gonna move away.” Or you may have had situations where you struggled with an addiction, regardless of what that addiction was, and if you had started to have thoughts about using, especially earlier on in your recovery, you’re like, “I really want to go use right now,” or, “I’m really just thinking about it. I’m thinking about what the steps would be for me to use.” And then you wake up and you go, “This is not a good idea. Let me call my accountability person, my sponsor. Go to a meeting. Let me tell somebody else what’s going on so that I don’t have to be sitting alone in these thoughts.” And you actually in opposite to what you were originally thinking about. So God has given us this great ability to filter through our thoughts, to reason through our thoughts, and sometimes it may be a thought that we just need to not think a ton about. Maybe we just need to let it go, like some intrusive thoughts. Like, okay, I don’t have to latch into this thought. It just needs to kinda move along in the mind. Just keep that train going, and I’m not gonna hop on that train. I’m gonna let it pass on by. Easier said than done, and does take a lot of practice, so I’m not minimizing how difficult these things are. But I’d also like to talk with you about the meaning that you may be making about some of these intrusive thoughts. And this is really important, because intrusive thoughts are scary enough, but oftentimes the meaning is worse than the actual intrusive thought itself. So here’s some common meanings that Christians ascribe to their intrusive thoughts. One, you may tell yourself, “Because I’m having this thought about God, or about sex, or about harming, or about relationship, somehow this must mean that I’m not a Christian.” Nope, not the case at all. Intrusive thoughts don’t mean that you’re not saved or not a part of the family of God. Go listen to our personal story episodes. Of the last couple summers, we’ve done a whole personal story series where I’ve interviewed a bunch of Christians who have dealt with OCD and who still deal with intrusive thoughts from time to time. They just have a better grip on how to handle those than they used to when they come up, and they come up a lot less. Lots of people who love the Lord struggle with intrusive thoughts. So if you’re dealing with intrusive thoughts, even ones that are really hairy, scary, that you don’t wanna say out loud or tell anyone about, just know that there are other Christians who’ve walked that road, and you’re not alone. So if you hear nothing else from today’s podcast episode, that’s what I want you to hear. You may say, “These thoughts mean that there’s something hidden, secret, dark, really deep wrong with me.” Nope, that’s not true. Actually, intrusive thoughts typically point to what you value. So if you’re afraid of harming someone close to you, it probably means that you really value those relationships, that you love those people. You would never want to harm them. If you’re struggling with intrusive thoughts about God, maybe blasphemous thoughts or questions about what you actually believe, it means that your faith’s actually important to you. And I think this is something that’s important to highlight because often dealing with OCD leads you away from your values. You may start to avoid certain things or people, um, spiritual practices because you’re so afraid of being triggered. And so what we wanna do through treatment is help you move back towards your values. In doing so, be able to manage these intrusive thoughts differently. OCD also really thrives on this whole secretive thing, right? There must be something secretive here. There must be some kind of like hidden knowledge that I just have to keep scratching at and digging at to uncover. Nope. This is a trick that OCD uses all the time, so don’t let it play tricks on you that there’s something secret in there. You may say to yourself, “Well, if I’m having thoughts about this, this means that I want it, and that’s really scary because I don’t want it.” And you may even feel certain things in your body. We call these phantom sensations in ICBT, and they may lead you to believe that there’s some kind of like pull or urge or… People describe it different ways, but you may start to believe that you really desire what this intrusive thought is telling you. Desires and thoughts are not the same thing, so it’s really important that you separate those two things out. Just like thoughts and actions are two different things. We explored that earlier. You need to separate out the thoughts and the actions, separate out the thoughts and the desires. Sometimes we do have thoughts about things we desire, but in terms of intrusive thoughts, they’re not things that you actually desire. They’re what we call egodystonic thoughts, which means they’re really in opposition to yourself and what you want. You may ascribe the meaning that I must just be a bad person. These thoughts are so shameful. They may be really violent or horrific, and you might be ascribing some type of meaning that I’m just bad. That is not the truth. Everyone at some level or another has dealt with an intrusive thought, and people with OCD come to believe this false feared version of themselves. That’s called the feared possible self in ICBT, and “I’m bad” could be a feared possible self. If you are in Christ, you are a child of God, you are loved, you have been redeemed from sin and death, and you are being made holy into the image of Jesus Christ, God’s Son. So we don’t need to hold on to this thought of “I’m bad.” That is contrary to your identity in Christ. And the last thing you may be saying to yourself is, “I’ve just been dealing with this for so long, I don’t think I’m ever gonna be able to get over it. I don’t think there is any hope for me.” And that’s simply not true. I want you to know that there are good Christian counselors out there. There is good OCD treatment. It is hard to find a marriage oftentimes of people who are marriaging the psychological and the spiritual, but there is hope for you regardless of how long you’ve been dealing with OCD, regardless of how intensely you’re dealing with OCD. You may just feel like you’re in a constant cycle of rumination. I just want to say that there is treatment, there is help, there are medications that are given to us by God. There are many options out there for you. And you may feel like, “You know what? I’ve done a lot of it. I’ve tried some ERP. It was overwhelming or too much, or it just didn’t seem to jive with my faith, some of the things they were wanting me to do.” I want you to know that I have an online course called Empowered Mind, which teaches these inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, ICBT, principles from a Christian perspective. We’ve had lots of students go through it and achieve success. We’ve told some of their stories on the podcast, so there is hope for you regardless of what you’re facing today. God loves you. He wants you to walk in freedom and in the abundant life of Christ. I want to leave you with one last scripture. Regardless of what you’re struggling with, believers, you have the mind of Christ. This is what it tells us in I Corinthians two:sixteen. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” If you are in Jesus, you have the mind of Christ. That doesn’t mean that your brain is always working the right way. It doesn’t mean that you aren’t gonna have intrusive thoughts. Remember what we talked about before, that the Holy Spirit lives inside of you, that you are in a transformational process. From the point you are saved till the point you get to heaven, God is working in your life. “He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it,” Philippians one, six. And we know that God is continuing to work in us to transform us to become more like His Son. And so don’t let OCD and all of these lies consume you. Know that the enemy wants you to believe these things. He wants you to believe there’s no hope for you. He wants you to believe that you’re never gonna get better. He wants you to believe that you’re secretly bad or outside God’s family or all these other things that you may be led to believe. And it’s important to identify those things as lies, to say, “Hey, to the best of my ability, I’m not gonna buy into this lie anymore.” And when we let go of the lie, we are better able to embrace truth. But oftentimes, we have to let go of the lie first is what I’m really seeing, and see it as the lie that it is. That’s the first step for you. Thank you so much for joining with me today. I’m in the process of writing a book for Christians just like you, struggling with OCD and intrusive thoughts, specifically scrupulosity related. If you wanna be the first to know when the book comes out, you definitely want to get on our newsletter at carriebock.com, and we’ll put that link in there for you so that you can access kind of some weekly devotionals, that thoughts that I send out to you guys, and can find out about book updates. I’m so excited. I’m just furiously, uh, writing and can’t wait to bring that to you all 

241. How to Make OCD Worse or Not!

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie revisits an earlier conversation about the connection between stress and OCD, taking a deeper look at why stress can make OCD symptoms worse and how to navigate stressful seasons without letting OCD take over.

Episode Highlights

  • Why stress can make OCD symptoms worse, even after a period of recovery
  • How positive life changes can create stress and trigger an increase in OCD symptoms
  • Simple ways to stay grounded in your relationship with God during busy seasons
  • How movement, boundaries, and focusing on what you can control can help you manage stress
  • Why saying no and asking for help can be important when life becomes overwhelming

Episode Summary

Why Does Stress Make OCD Symptoms Worse?

I’ve seen many people experience a major life change and suddenly feel like OCD is running rampant again. Even if you’ve had a period of recovery or your mind has been quieter, stress can activate OCD and make symptoms feel much louder.

We can’t completely eliminate stress from our lives, and trying to do that isn’t realistic. What we can do is recognize when stress is affecting us and become more intentional about how we respond to it. That’s where I want to take this conversation a little deeper.

Can Positive Life Changes Make OCD Worse?

Not all stress comes from bad circumstances. Some of the things we want most can also bring significant stress. Moving, buying a house, starting a new job, getting married, or having a baby can all disrupt our normal rhythms and routines.

If you’re going through a major transition and your OCD suddenly feels more intense, I want you to recognize the connection. Sometimes understanding what is happening can help you stop judging yourself and start looking at what you need during this particular season.

How Can Christians With OCD Stay Grounded During a Stressful Season?

When life becomes hectic, it’s easy for your normal spiritual routines to get thrown off. Maybe you’re not sleeping well, you’re skipping your usual time with God, or everything simply feels out of sorts.

I talk about finding small ways to remain connected with God throughout the day, and explore how to keep spiritual practices from becoming rigid rituals where you feel like you have to do everything exactly right.

What Practical Habits Can Help When Stress Is Making OCD Worse?

When you’re already overwhelmed, taking care of yourself can easily fall to the bottom of the list. OCD can also pull you into all-or-nothing thinking, making small efforts seem like they don’t really count.

I want to challenge that mindset. There are simple ways to support yourself during stressful seasons that don’t require completely changing your routine, and some of them may be easier to fit into your day than you think.

How Do You Focus on What You Can Control When You Have OCD?

OCD can make you feel responsible for situations and outcomes that aren’t actually within your control. The more you try to manage everything, the more stress you may end up carrying.

Learning to recognize what is truly yours to handle and what you need to release can help you move forward without carrying responsibilities that were never yours to begin with.

Why Do Saying No and Asking for Help Matter When Managing OCD?

There are seasons when we have to acknowledge that we simply cannot do everything. I’m experiencing this myself as I make space to write my book about discerning between what OCD sounds like and what God sounds like. Saying yes to writing this book means I’m going to have to say no to other things.

If stress has been making your OCD louder, there’s more to explore in the full episode about recognizing what’s happening and taking small, realistic steps to care for yourself.

Transcript

I am in the process of writing a book. I am so super stoked about it. God has just really blessed me with an amazing writing coach to help me with outlining and making sure that my chapters are on point, and that I’m sticking to what I agreed to say to.

The book is gonna be about discerning between what OCD sounds like and what God sounds like. I really just am so impassioned that this book needs to be into the world. But part of that process for me has been just making space to have time to write and for this book to bring it out into the world. So one of the things that I’m doing as part of that process, which is actually kind of fun, is we’re gonna be doing some revisiting episodes We’re gonna be revisiting some concepts that I’ve talked about on the podcast before, some of our popular episodes, and I’m going to be adding to them, shifting what I’m saying a little bit.

It’s not a rerun, it’s a revisit. And today we’re revisiting episode 137, which is This Thing Will Make Your OCD Worse Every Time. And we talked on that episode about stress and how stress will make OCD worse every time. So I’ve done a little fun retitling for you, and today we’re gonna call this How to Make OCD Worse or Not.

How can we make OCD worse? Well, not manage your stress very well, not do anything to take care of that. Now, we cannot completely eliminate stress from our lives. That would be totally impossible and unrealistic, although you may try to do that in different ways from time to time. And I certainly do what I can to reduce stress from my life.

But let’s face it, some of the things in life that are stressful are things that we want. Have you ever done something like move? You may have really wanted to move, whether that was a local move or whether that was a move to a completely different state or even a different country. And the moving process, as we know, is very stressful regardless of how you do it.

Have you ever bought a house or started a new job, gotten married, had a baby? All of these things can be stressful even though they are things that we want. And that’s important for us to know that we even have what I would call positive stress showing up in our life that can make OCD worse. So you’re going through a transition, a major life transition or change, and it just seems like OCD is running rampant.

Just know, welcome to the club. You are normal. I hear this from many different people, that they have a major life shift, and OCD really gets activated, even if you’ve had a period of recovery or a period where things were just quieter in your mind with OCD. If you are looking for tools to deal with your OCD, I have an online course called Empowered Mind specifically for Christians who are looking to learn inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, iCBT, and are looking to integrate their Christianity with this evidence-based practice.

So you can check that out by going to carriebock.com/training. All that information is on my website. So let’s talk about some steps to mitigating stress and managing OCD. Number one is to stay grounded in your spiritual practice to the best of your ability. I know that when you’re going through a busy, hectic, crazy season, that can be hard.

All of a sudden, you’re not sleeping well, and then you’re skipping time with God in the morning, or you’re just feeling all, like, out of sorts. Maybe you’re not feeling well or you’re displaced locationally. Maybe you had a rhythm and a routine, and that’s gotten thrown off. So let’s talk about some just small ways that you can stay grounded in your relationship with God in just a crazy season or a stressful season.

One of those may be just that you put a verse or two up around your house. So I have the same verse in the kitchen, and it’s right by the area where I would, like, chop vegetables or make food. So essentially kind of on the countertop near the stove, that area. And I don’t really have backsplash, but if you had backsplash, kinda sorta where that would be.

Not right behind the stove, but next to it. That’s irrelevant. However, I have one there, and I have one in my bathroom because those are places that I go to every single day, right? At some point or another, I’m gonna go make some type of food for my family. At some point or another, many times a day, I’m gonna be going to the bathroom in the morning and the evening if I’m at home.

I know that I will be able to see that scripture verse and read it over and really take some time to meditate on it and say, “Okay, what is this saying? How is God speaking to me through this particular verse?” If you struggle with scrupulosity, I really encourage you to pick verse about God’s love to have around you as a reminder.

It could be a verse about God’s love. It could be a verse about God’s grace maybe that you really need to think and lean into in this season. Could be a verse about forgiveness. So many different things that you could pick certainly. But just putting the word of God in your heart and in your mind is so helpful because then it comes out when we need it, and it comes to mind when we need it.

Other ways to remain grounded, praying in your car, taking these small pockets of time maybe where you’re waiting or where you don’t have much to do. Instead of giving into that initial urge of like, “Okay, I’m gonna pull out my phone, I’m gonna check this email, or I’m gonna go scroll on social media,” maybe just take a moment to take a few deep breaths and say a breath prayer.

We had an episode on that. I encourage you to listen to. Just breathe, take a minute, and really maybe just thank God for something at that moment. Just a small way throughout your day to remain connected with God. That abiding in Christ is gonna reduce your stress level overall. Even the secular people will tell you studies about meditation and prayer and how those reduce our stress.

I think that’s a good thing for us to remember is, like, we already have these spiritual practices that can help us reduce stress. Now, if you’re struggling with scrupulosity, you may say, “That period of time really stresses me out in the morning.” And so I understand that, and I hear you, and I just want you to know that God understands that, too, and He understands that you may be struggling with certain rituals or feeling very rigid about your spirituality.

So anything that you can do to kinda shake that up, make OCD mad, maybe just focusing on a small passage of scripture instead of feeling like I have to be reading for this amount of time, or I have to say my prayer exactly this way. Maybe leaning into something different, making sure that you’re not repeating things over and over again because you didn’t feel like it was sincere or didn’t feel like it was right.

Just do the best that you can, and God knows your heart, and He knows that you want to love Him and that you want to serve Him and grow closer to Him. And so if the time with God is hard, just take it one step at a time and one day at a time and see what you can do, what’s feasible in this season of stress or in this season of OCD.

Number two, I want you to be real with yourself in recognizing what’s going on, and then entering into a state of self-compassion. In really hard seasons, just saying to yourself or saying to a loved one, “This is a hard season right now,” or, “I’m going through a stressful time. Even though I really want to have this baby, it’s stressful going through these hormonal changes.

It’s stressful with my body changing and doing all kinds of things. It’s stressful just waiting maybe and not knowing, like, how things are going to turn out, and going to all the appointments can be stressful.” All the things, right? Giving yourself that permission to acknowledge maybe a mixture of feelings that you’re having.

I know that this was a big one that I felt, particularly when I was pregnant. It was kind of like, “Oh, hey, I’m supposed to be, like, super happy all the time. This is really great. I’m having a baby when I’m older. Not everybody can have a baby when they’re older, so therefore, like, I should be super grateful.”

It’s all like whenever you tell yourself how you should feel, it usually just ends up backfiring, and it’s better to just be honest with yourself about, “How do I actually feel?” And at the time, I was going through some depression for a variety of issues of different things that were happening. I think there was also some physiological stuff happening with sleep apnea getting worse, and I think that that was also driving my depression.

I didn’t know that at the time. All I knew was I was pregnant and depressed, and I wasn’t, quote, supposed to be according to how I was self-judging myself. So entering into a state of compassion for yourself and just being like, “You know what? I feel anxious.” Or I feel sad. These are just part of our human experience, that we have this wide range of emotions, and we certainly have emotions because we’re created in God’s image.

If you’re angry, you’re angry. That doesn’t mean that you have to go act on it, but it doesn’t mean that you suppress it either. It means that you say, “You know what? Let’s just lay this on the table. This is how I feel,” and then I can sort those things with God and figure out what to do about it, how to handle it in a healthy way.

You’re not perfect. Don’t expect yourself to be perfect when you’re in a season of high stress, and you may be caregiving for a loved one. You may have a child that’s having some behavior issues. There are so many different things that we face in life, and crises happen every single day. So just being really gentle with yourself and saying, “Hey, I’m not where I want to be right now, and in terms of coping with my OCD or maybe even in terms of coping with my stress, I’m not where I want to right now.

But that’s okay, because I can just take small steps today.” And those small steps will lead to bigger and bigger steps for you. Number three is move your body. Do some type of physical movement. That’s really, really good for stress. It’s really good for depression, anxiety, and especially when you are dealing with OCD.

I know different people have thoughts about medication. I’m personally like, hey, if medication is a good avenue for you and you wanna talk to your doctor about that. But there are plenty of studies that really show that good OCD treatment works well when someone engages in some type of medication and therapy working together, and oftentimes people will tend to pick one or the other, and then there’s, like, this missing link.

However, what I tell people is that if you’re not going to use medication, if you just say, “That’s absolutely not for me,” or, “I’ve had bad side effects,” that I really encourage people to exercise, because that’s so good for your brain and so good for your body. That can really benefit you. It’s not going to cure your OCD.

It will help you cope with stress better though, and you will feel better as a result. You may say, “Well, I’m stressed out, and I’m way too busy to exercise,” but I think that’s where it’s important to find these little pockets of your day to engage in some type of movement, whether it’s a short walk in the morning, whether it’s a walk on your lunch break, taking the stairs instead of at your office building when you go to lunch instead of just using the elevator.

There are many different options for you to engage in small bursts of movement. Maybe you get up, and you do 20 squats before you get out the door. Whatever it is, just finding these little pockets where you can do some type of movement. Oftentimes what I find with OCD is people will engage in this all or nothing thinking, right?

Like, “I’ve either gotta be like hardcore in, and I’ve gotta like go to the gym and really get into lifting weights,” whatever it is you’re telling yourself. But small changes add up to bigger changes. Finding things that you can do within your physical ability level as well. We’re not trying to create further problems because you went gung ho for a workout that your body wasn’t prepared for.

That’s part of recognizing where you’re at in the previous step and being compassionate. Maybe you are only able to do walking for 15 minutes. That’s okay. Like start wherever you’re able, and your brain and body will certainly thank you. Definitely helpful for stress. I know that many people are getting walking pads nowadays.

I recently, because I do so much sitting for work, I finally said, “You know what? I really need to do this walking pad,” and have gotten to the point where I can do a little bit of walking and working on the computer at the same time. But however you get your movement in, definitely get it in. The next step is to focus on what you can control.

You cannot control everything, although OCD will cause you to believe that you can control things that you actually can’t control. You cannot control other people’s feelings, other people’s behavior. You cannot control the weather. You cannot control many different factors that are outside of your control in terms of job Housing market.

There are just so many things we could list, right, that are outside of our control. But what we can say is for the things that are within our control, we can look at, what can I actually do in this situation? Maybe it’s a rough job market. What can I do? Can I work on my LinkedIn profile? Can I go to a networking meeting?

Can I talk to other people in my field and see what they’re doing? How can I get more training or better myself so that I can improve my job standing? Maybe we just talked about health, and that’s really this whole thing. What small changes can we make to improve our health and reduce stress levels?

That’s one thing that we can control to some extent. I can control how I communicate in a relationship. I can’t control how that person receives what I communicate, but I can work on my words, my tone of voice. I can express how I feel. I can express wants and needs in a relationship, but I can’t make that other person provide those wants or needs.

I can’t make that other person do anything that they don’t want to do. So recognizing, what’s my responsibility, what’s my role here? And then these other things that I can’t control, I really have to be able to surrender and release those things over to God and say, “Okay, God, I can’t control this. This is your department.

I can pray that you will soften this person’s heart. I can pray that you will give me wisdom and understanding. I can pray that you will give me the right words to say, that you will help me to have self-control, be able to remain calm in this relationship, maybe where I have a tendency to get hot-tempered.”

These are things that you can connect with God over. And as you pray through those things and as you really surrender and say, “Hey, it’s not my will, but yours be done. I can’t do this on my own. I desperately need you to intervene,” that God gives us a sense of peace back, where He says, “Okay, you can trust me to move forward and to keep going Our next point is learn to say no.

No is a complete sentence. If you are going through a busy and stressful season, there are going to be things that you have to say no to. I shared earlier that I’m in this book-writing process, and I really believe that I’m about to enter a season of no, that there are gonna probably be many things that I say no to in order to say yes to writing this book, in order to getting it out into the world.

I have said no many times to individual therapy clients so that I could really focus on intensives and focus on Empowered Mind, the ICBT course that I have. By saying no to one thing, it means you’re saying yes to something else, and that’s important for you to keep in mind. You cannot do all the things in this season, and that may mean that you do grocery pickup or delivery.

It may mean that you do some more, like, ready-made meals rather than cooking everything from scratch. Saying no can be a hard skill to learn, and if you find yourself constantly struggling with boundaries, I really encourage you to get some therapy surrounding that. And I am certainly happy to help you if you’re interested, looking at some intensive therapy or a therapy retreat surrounding being able to be assertive in your communication and being able to say no.

Oftentimes, it goes back to, uh, difficult experiences in childhood where you weren’t given a voice or weren’t able to stand up for yourself. So I would love to process through some of that with you. Or if you have a therapist in your area that you can see and get some specifically tailored trauma therapy surrounding, that would be really helpful for you These are things that you can learn and you can practice.

They’re hard at first. They feel uncomfortable, but if you have trouble saying no, just know that that’s something that you can work through and get better at over time. And our last step in managing your stress and helping your OCD is to ask for help. It is okay to ask for help. It is okay to say, “Hey, can you watch my child for a few hours while I pack up these boxes to prepare for our move?”

It is okay to ask your spouse, “Hey, can you help me with this particular house project so that I can get it off my to-do list and not be stressed or worried about it?” Or, “Can we carve out three hours this Saturday to really tackle this particular organization project or a lawn project that we have?” That is really gonna help you.

It’s okay to ask for what you need. That’s an important thing to note. And asking for help, just like boundaries, can be really hard at first, and it takes a certain level of humility. This is something that God has had to work with me on in terms of being able to ask other people for help. But I know now that it is so important.

We weren’t meant to be an island, to be alone and isolated. We were meant to live in community and be somewhat interdependent on each other, and I mean that in a very healthy way, not in a negative way. So if you need to ask somebody for help, then don’t be afraid to use your support system. All right. I hope this episode was helpful for you.

Thanks so much for tuning in today and letting us revisit a really important topic on dealing with stress in relationship to OCD. If you are on YouTube, please hit like and subscribe, comment, and let me know if this episode was helpful for you. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

240. How Do I Know If I’m Obsessing Right Now?

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie helps you distinguish between everyday uncertainty and OCD by exploring obsessional doubts, compulsions, rumination, faith-related OCD, and the ways ICBT can help identify when OCD is turning uncertainty into a crisis.

Episode Highlights:

  • How to recognize when an everyday uncertainty may be turning into an OCD obsession
  • Why OCD often targets the people, beliefs, and values that matter most to you
  • How urgency, internet research, rumination, and reassurance-seeking can signal OCD
  • What ICBT teaches about the difference between everyday doubts and obsessional doubts
  • How Christians can respond to uncertainty without trying to force absolute certainty

Episode Summary:

How Can You Tell If You’re Experiencing Everyday Uncertainty or OCD?

This is one of the questions I hear most. Waiting on medical results, getting to know someone new, worrying about someone you love, these are all normal parts of life. You genuinely don’t know how they’ll turn out. OCD shows up when that not-knowing suddenly needs to be solved right now. I break down how to spot that moment.

Why Does OCD Go After the Things You Care About Most?

OCD rarely bothers with things you don’t care about. It goes straight for your health, your marriage, your kids, your faith. For Christians, this can be confusing, because a normal question about prayer or sin turns into an urgent spiritual crisis. I explain why OCD works this way, and what it doesn’t mean about you.

What’s the Real Difference Between an Everyday Doubt and an Obsessional One?

I use an idea from ICBT that changed how I explain this. Everyday doubts land eventually. The test comes back. You make a decision. You land somewhere on a hard question. Obsessional doubts don’t land. Your brain just keeps asking for one more search, one more check, one more round of reassurance.

How Does a Normal Problem Turn Into an OCD Crisis?

Not sure if your boss likes your work? Not sure where a relationship is headed? Both are normal. But OCD can take that uncertainty and build a whole imaginary story around it, jumping straight to the worst case with little evidence behind it. I walk through how that jump happens.

How Do You Live With Uncertainty as a Christian Without Feeding OCD?

Tolerating uncertainty starts with knowing what’s actually yours to carry and what isn’t. There’s a difference between responding to what’s in front of you and trying to control the future through checking or replaying it in your head. Sometimes faith means leaving a question open and trusting God with the next step, not the whole outcome.

If you want to recognize the subtle moment when normal uncertainty turns into an OCD rabbit hole, listen to the full episode.

Transcript

Today on the podcast, we are answering your questions about scrupulosity.

First, I wanna say thank you to everyone who submitted a question, either via email who get our weekly newsletters. I was asking people if they had questions for this series. So we had some email replies and then, of course, our survey that we did a while ago prior to episode 200. Some of you, I just kind of took the comments from those survey responses and utilized those as questions for this episode.

Welcome, OCD Warriors, to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast, where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace.

I’m Carrie Bach, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode.

For some of these, you wanted to remain anonymous, and we’re respecting that, and for others, you said that we could use your first name in respect to the question. So if you hear a name on the podcast, it’s because that person gave us permission.

Just so you know, our first question is from Sabrina.

Sabrina asks, does anyone else struggle with critical thoughts, especially towards God or his word?

Now, this can be a common intrusive thought, right? You may have a thought, something to the effect of, how do you know the Bible is real? How do you know God’s word is really true?

Some people have other intense, intrusive thoughts that have to do with blasphemy, and of course, these thoughts can be very distressing for someone with scrupulosity because your faith is important to you and you don’t wanna have these particular thoughts about God.

So I would say understand that God knows your brain even better than you do, and the quicker that you’re able to identify these as intrusive thoughts, the easier it’s gonna be to be able to know that you don’t have to respond to them. That it’s not your true inner desire or value to disrespect God, his word, or anything else as a part of your faith system.

One of our podcast listeners, Steve, ask about scripture verses and how different groups or denominations have different interpretations. There may be one that’s stricter than your particular belief, and so how do we deal with these interpretations of scripture?

He said, it doesn’t seem like it’s a hundred percent imaginary because there are people that believe this way in the here and now, even people that don’t have OCD, so of course someone with OCD may think, okay, well now I need to live according to this stricter interpretation of scripture.

What we wanna do is we’re not just automatically looking at sense data with ICBT. I think that’s a misnomer maybe for a lot of people that listen to this podcast even and hear me talk about it. It’s not just about sense data. We also have to look at the obsessional reasoning process.

And so when we look at the obsessional reasoning process, what we’re saying is that we’re distrusting what’s actually in the sensory information in the here and now, which is opening us up to the hypothetical imaginary what ifs, and then applying some logic to those what ifs.

Now we wanna get down to what’s the actual primary obsessional doubt that’s going on, and I would say the primary obsessional doubt is not, What if I’m not interpreting the scripture correctly? At first glance, that may be what you think that doubt is. However, when you look at it a little bit closely and go a layer deep and a layer deep and a layer deep, so what if I misinterpret this scripture and then I say, okay, that means I’m getting something in my relationship with God wrong.

If I’m getting something in my relationship wrong, then the next layer deep would say, well, I don’t have a good relationship with God. You could even start to doubt if you had a relationship with God.

You wanna really get down to that primary obsessional doubt. Is it I’m offending God in some way? Is it I’m going to be disconnected from him in some way? Is it, I’m going to, maybe if you don’t fear losing your salvation, but you fear something else, like being far from God or not following God’s commands for your life, and that’s what you’re really trying to look at.

And then we would say, well, what evidence do we have for that? That you don’t care about God and his commands? We probably don’t have evidence for that as a generality.

If you are a person who is seeking to walk with Christ, we’re not trying to be perfect, but we’re saying, Hey, I am engaging in these spiritual practices to know Christ and to understand him better, like I’m listening to the Holy Spirit. I’m allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in interpreting the word of God.

To me, that’s part of the Spirit’s job as you’re reading the Bible, to reveal those things to you that you need to pay attention to and understand that people’s belief systems change over time, and sometimes that’s due to living life and personal experience.

I’ve shared about a couple of my things before, but honestly, I was raised that Catholics were not true Christians. Somewhere along the lines, I picked that up. I don’t know if that was parents or other teachers, but I have met some Catholics that are fully devoted to following Jesus, and I believe that they have a relationship with the Lord.

Ultimately, it’s not for me to judge who’s in God’s kingdom or not. That’s up to him.

But I’m just giving you an example of something that I was taught, like, Hey, this entire group of people, they don’t know what they’re talking about and they aren’t saved, versus examining that belief and saying, you know what? These people may practice differently than I do, but I also see that they love Jesus and are trying to follow him.

We had a question about Romans 14:23, but whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats. This is in terms of the food sacrifice to idols, because the eating is not from faith, for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

We have to be careful about getting stuck on any one particular scripture passage for a multitude of reasons. We wanna look first at: What is the context of that scripture passage? Who is being spoken to in it? How does that passage or verse apply to the entire chapter? How does it apply to the book? How does it apply to other verses that are similar to it? What are some parallel passages that may speak to some of the same things?

Ultimately, OCD can misapply scripture verses, and you’ll kind of going back to that obsessional reasoning process. Where you’re distrusting, the sense is you are opening up to the imagination and then there’s this logic that’s misapplied, and sometimes scripture verses actually get involved in that misapplied logic, either misunderstanding scripture verses, but not just that. Really just taking them out of context to something that they don’t apply to in the here and now.

Actually, if you look at this, this goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Did God really say this?

And you also look at the temptation of Jesus where the devil is using scripture against him saying, Hey, throw yourself down off this building because basically the angels are gonna come and rescue you. And it’s essentially a misapplying, the Psalm to Jesus in that moment.

We know that in essence is something that the enemy does is lie to us about scripture and what it really says. We have to be cautious.

Kind of going back to wanting to get at that primary obsessional doubt is that if OCD has you hung up on one particular scripture or a couple particular scriptures that you need to go back to, what are we actually doubting here and how is that contributing to the story?

How is this logic that I’m believing from the scripture potentially being misapplied to my actual here and now present situation of what’s going on as I’m making decisions, as I’m discerning God’s will, as I am seeking to live out my Christian faith?

We also want to just remember when it comes down to commandments, there are two main commandments and they’re pretty simple. Love God, love people, love your neighbor as yourself, and we can be so hung up on how to do those things that we actually miss the point entirely, that we actually end up not loving God very well, or not loving people very well because we’re so paralyzed on how to actually do it.

That’s not what God wants for you. That’s not God’s heart. He wants you to be able to freely love him and love others to the best of your ability.

In this particular scripture passage, intention is important. What is your intention when you encounter other believers?

A lot of times in modern day, this gets applied to alcohol, although I don’t think that because we don’t necessarily have meat sacrifice to idols, at least not in the US. That may happen in other parts of the world. I don’t know. I know that in Asian countries sometimes they leave food out for spirits and things of that nature.

However, in my particular context, what does it mean to try not to cause another believer to stumble? It might get applied to alcohol. It might get applied maybe to movies or TV shows that you might consume, whereas you might be okay with that, and that may not affect your spiritual life negatively, but somebody else may watch something, listen to something, and it affects them negatively.

God knows where each person is at, and if I know personally that I don’t drink, but if I did drink, I brought alcohol to someone’s house and didn’t know what their stance was on alcohol. As a believer, maybe that’s probably not the best idea. I might wanna ask or be respectful ahead of time, like, Hey, do you have any qualms about this? Are you okay with it or not?

I think that’s just a matter of respecting other people’s beliefs and preferences and practices.

If you know somebody that is fasting chocolate for Lynch, you’re not gonna bring chocolate over to them. I mean, these are kind of some common sense type of examples of just how we respect other people and where they’re at spiritually and not desiring them to stumble.

I think there are so many times that we overcomplicate things. Simple a lot of times is better.

Someone gave us something about giving up on God. That’s a note that I have from my assistant. I’m not sure exactly what that means. I don’t know if they mean they feel like giving up on their faith because they have scrupulosity and they’re really struggling with it.

I find that that doesn’t seem to be helpful or congruent with most people who struggle with Scrupulosity. Sometimes they feel like, well, if I just give up and just don’t believe anymore, then that’s going to resolve this, when really that’s not the case.

And unfortunately, they may have even been told by some therapists, well, you’re taking your faith way too seriously and you may need to just take a step back and not have those particular high values. Of course, that’s, uh, not what I would consider to be an ethical stance. However, because it’s your values that you’re bringing to therapy.

However, I will say that if you just say, okay, well, I’m not going to believe or I’m not going to follow God, then what I’m gonna do is that that’ll resolve things that OCD is just gonna attach itself to something else. Like if you were able to do that. So it’s not actually going to fix the issue.

Plus, it’s not very easy for us to just automatically change our value system. If we’ve had it for a while, eh, that’s not really true. We can change our value system.

So if I didn’t answer your question on giving up on God, I might need a little bit more detail there.

One of our listeners, Leslie, said, I bet lots of other Christians with OCD feel like Pharisees. We get so hung up sometimes on a little rule instead of focusing on loving God and others like ourselves.

And I would agree with that. I think that that’s completely true and really what we were just talking about. So thank you for confirming that, Leslie.

We had a comment, which I really appreciated, from someone who heard our podcast on hearing from God.

Back on episode 208, we had a podcast called, Is It OCD Voice, or God’s Voice, Hearing From God for Healing with Heather O’Brien, and we got some feedback on that episode.

Someone had said, seemed like some of the things that we talked about seemed like good, spiritual things to be aware of, but other things like dreams, a word from another believer praying for open and closed doors or signs seem to be things that they have encouraged their loved one with scrupulosity to stay away from. Some kinds of things that may be heard in church about God leading people with a particular feeling. That can be prevalent is not very helpful for those with scrupulosity.

So what I wanna say to that, and first of all, apologies for any confusion that may have been occurred by that episode, and I’d love to hear other people’s feedback on that because it’s been a very popular episode that many people have listened to.

So definitely would love further feedback if others have it regarding whether some of those things were helpful or harmful in the scrupulosity discussion.

These are things that I plan to kind of explore further in writings and teachings in the future, because I really want people to be able to discern God’s voice and to be able to discern leadings from the Holy Spirit versus is this OCD trying to just train, wreck, everything that’s going on.

And what I would say is that God speaks to people through a variety of different ways. We can see that in scripture where God did speak to people through dreams in scripture.

At times, I don’t think that God necessarily speaks to me through dreams. I haven’t had that as an experience. God will wake me up with a specific thought sometimes on my mind. Of course, sometimes that’s just Carrie stressed out, so I have to discern those things. I have to take them to God in prayer.

I think that confirmation sometimes can be helpful for us, that there may be things that we’re praying about that someone else says, Hey, and they’ll just affirm something that we’ve already been praying about or thinking about. That can happen quite frequently and be very helpful just in terms of is this God or is this not?

And we also see, I believe in scripture, where Paul was prevented from going to Macedonia. That’s in Acts 16. God has the ability to speak to us in a wide variety of ways, and so I really don’t want to limit God.

I also have to say that what we really wanna look at is, is there a lens of fear here? Is there a lens of, I’ve missed something? Is there a lens of this is not resolving? There is no peace as I’m praying through this and processing it.

Because with OCD, it’s a loop. It goes around in a circle, so it’s something that you’re wrestling with over and over and over without any kind of peace or resolution to it.

Oftentimes, God is speaking to us in a way that is not urgent, like you have to do this exact thing right now. It’s something that he has been teaching us and showing us over time. It’s something that repeatedly comes up for us.

It’s not cloaked in an enormous amount of fear because God is loving and kind to us and gracious.

And I know for me, there are times where I totally miss it. I’m just gonna be honest with you guys. I’m like, oh, like that’s what God has been trying to show me. That’s what he’s been trying to tell me, and I just didn’t get it. And God is gracious to speak it to you again.

So just know that. If you are following him and seeking him and praying, sitting in silence, reading the word of God, you are not going to have to worry about missing what it is that he has for you, missing what he’s trying to speak to you.

If there is an intense amount of, it’s all my fault. If I make the wrong decision, God’s gonna be mad at me. I’m incredibly afraid there’s gonna be eternal consequences, even for something that’s not an eternal consequence situation.

Those are just some really good clues for you that that’s OCD. That’s just a different conversation.

And if you’ve been living with OCD for so long, you’re so used to that voice. You’re used to the condemning voice, you’re used to the fear. You’re used to maybe feeling like that voice was directing you or protecting you in some way or keeping you safe.

We want to do is to open you up to the voice of the Holy Spirit, which is calmer, quieter, peaceful, gentle, loving.

And it may be a situation where you are walking out in faith and don’t feel like God is talking to you all the time.

I think we hear people in church say, God is always speaking and we’re just not listening, and I don’t believe that.

Here’s why. I don’t believe that I can sit with people that I really love, that know me really well, and we can have a connection and we don’t have to say anything. We don’t have to constantly be talking to each other. Just enjoy spending time in each other’s presence.

Now, if a loved one has something to say to me and I’m there, and I’m present, and I’m available, then they’re gonna be able to speak to me about it.

And I believe the Lord is the same way. We have to get quiet sometimes so that we can listen and open ourselves up.

I think in a busy society, that’s the hardest part. Just actually taking the time to slow down long enough to listen and to be available and to be reading God’s word because those are the words of God, so that we can know them and receive them and plant them, get them rooted down deep into our soul and spirit so that they come out at the times that they need to, and God can bring those remembrances to mind for us.

How do I teach my children about the Lord when it causes so much fear for me?

I dunno. What about children’s songs? I’ve been thinking about this myself for my daughter. How can I start to teach her some of these truths?

And we’ve started listening to kids Christian worship music on the way to school, and she likes it because it’s kids singing and it’s fun and upbeat while it’s still teaching her spiritual truths.

We talk about what is she learning with the other kids in Sunday school? She used to go to a Christian program, but now she’s in a secular program, so we’re not getting that from there.

But we have kids’ Bibles and devotional books and things of that nature. Sometimes that’s a little bit easier to access the children’s materials if you have scrupulosity than the full-blown adult materials.

And of course, we want to try to simplify things for children anyway.

I think just taking it one step at a time and leaning on other people and other supports in your life.

This came from someone in the one of our survey respondents, but I, I appreciate that question. I think it’s important.

Another one from the survey, how can you feel good about yourself and still feel Christian?

Yeah, this is one that gets very confusing for a lot of people. They think it’s prideful to feel good about myself.

However, being prideful is like if I brag on my accomplishments and I say, oh, they’re my achievements and I’ve done this, and look at what I’ve done and it’s all about me, like that would be a place of pride.

So I could tell you a prideful story about this podcast would be totally laughable. I’m laughing just thinking about it because what I’m about to tell you so not true is ridiculous.

Here’s my prideful podcast story.

I have over 200 episodes and I have worked so hard on this podcast and I have done a lot of training on OCD and I’ve read all the ICBT books and I have really done the hard work to learn how to share this information with you, and I’ve had to learn about podcasting and how to grow a podcast and it’s all been about Carrie and her effort, and that is why we are here today.

Not a true story at all.

Y’all do not even know how many times I have cried and prayed about this thing and just y’all just.

The more true story would be God broke my heart and caused me to want to share this message of hope for the world. That’s the only reason that I’m here.

Whether it has a certain number of downloads or followers or subscribers, whatever, doesn’t really matter to me. Because it’s about whatever God wants to do for it, and I just really need to be here and be obedient and do the best that I can with what God has stewarded me with.

But really, there would be no Christian Faith in OCD. Uh, prior to that, it was Hope for Anxiety and OCD. There never would’ve been any of that had it not been for God.

Had he not put that on my heart, had he not led me to the right people that could help me and support me along this journey, had I not had, I wanna say fan club.

And what I mean by fan club, I mean is like my husband, very supportive of this podcast. My mother, when she was alive, she was like my number one cheerleader of the podcast.

Listen, she was like passing out podcast cards like crazy. Every time she met somebody, she’s like, my daughter is a podcast. She’s like an ambassador for the show. Really, truly.

So I’ve been blessed to have a lot of support along the way when I had like no episodes. I mean, friends got on here and let me interview them. Very blessed. Very thankful.

You look at those two stories are very different.

I feel good about the second story because I feel like all I did was show up and do my best to do what God asked me to do.

It’s not really because of anything that I have done, but only what God has been able to do in and through me, and people are like. Will contact me and be like, oh, thank you for doing this. This is so great. And I’ve just been so encouraged and I’m like, okay, praise God. Like, that’s awesome.

That’s the only reason we’re I’m able to be here. And just so I’m thankful for that. It’s, it’s not about me.

So I think it’s how you interpret your circumstances in terms of yourself, like feeling good about yourself and what you’re doing in the world, but it’s more than that.

Feeling good about yourself to me is recognizing my value and worth because of Christ, not because of me as a person.

The only reason that I have value is because I’m created in the image of God, because he loved me first, because I was still a sinner. Christ died for me. Like that’s the reason that I have value and worth is because I have been forgiven and because God loved me and sent his son to die for me.

That’s feeling how I can feel good about myself and still be a Christian.

There you have it.

This one came from the survey and it’s about prayer.

We have had episodes in the past about prayer, but they were talking about it should be simple, but I find it so hard. And are there different ways that you can pray? Does it need to be certain way? How do you know if you’re just praying or you’re thinking something in your head?

I would say there are many different ways to pray.

You know, we’ve had an episode in the past on breath prayers. That was back on episode 75 with Jennifer Tucker.

And essentially what a breather is, is it’s where you take, uh, pieces of scripture and when you inhale, you say part of that scripture in your head.

So it could be like Psalm 46. The Lord is my refuge and strength. You would inhale and then exhale and ever present help in times of trouble.

There’s a Psalm 23. You could inhale the Lord is my shepherd, and then as you exhale, I shall not want, or I have what I need. Kind of depending on what translation you are looking at there.

That’s just one example of how to pray.

When we did prayer and fasting at our church earlier this year, our pastor put together a booklet of different ways to pray.

One of them is praying through the Lord’s Prayer, and not just praying through exactly as it’s written in scripture, but using that as a starting point.

So praising God, recognizing his name and his holiness. Recognizing him as your father, praying about God’s kingdom, advancing God’s will, being done, presenting your requests and your needs before God, submitting your will over to him, et cetera.

So that’s one way to pray.

There are, there’s praying scripture. You can pick specific scriptures and pray through them, putting your name in there. Many different ways to pray.

I know that some traditions have specific like liturgical prayers that they pray, maybe specific times or specific seasons.

There’s many different ways to pray, or you don’t have to have a very rigid, specific structure.

Sometimes your prayer can just be, I need help right now, or I feel overwhelmed, or, God, I need you.

That is a prayer in itself. God, I need you today, or I need you right now.

I think that we don’t need to overthink it or over structure it, or it’s just talking to God and finding a way to connect with him.

Another thing this individual said, which I feel like is a really good point to talk about, is, is that I don’t feel like I can feel my feelings. Because I’ve prayed about it. If it’s surrendered over to God, I’m supposed to be at peace when I’m done praying.

And the reality is that’s the ideal, but it’s not always what we experience.

Sometimes we pray about something and our feelings have not fully caught up, and that’s okay. Sometimes we still may feel distressed about something because we’re still in uncertainty. The situation hasn’t been resolved at this point, and we have to sit with that and trust.

Trust can be really hard. It can be hard to trust God, especially if you’ve been hurt by a lot of people in your past, or even spiritual leaders.

Maybe you feel like God didn’t handle it the way that you wanted him to with the situation in the past. So you feel like, well, God, you allowed this negative thing into my life. So it’s hard to trust you with this piece right here.

We can pray that our feelings align with our faith, and sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t.

And so we still have to find ways to process our feelings, whether that’s sadness, grief, anger, frustration, guilt, shame, like all of those things, we have to learn how to cope with them in a healthy way.

Praying doesn’t mean that I don’t need any coping skills or that prayer should be like my only way of coping with my emotions.

I think it’s a great way, don’t get me wrong, being able to pour your heart out to the Lord and bring things to him and wrestle through issues that you might be facing. That’s really great for your mind, your body, and your emotions.

But sometimes you may still be in distress, and you know what? You may need to go for a walk or you may need to take some deep breaths, or you may need to call a friend, or you may need to enlist some other healthy, godly coping skills as well.

We had some questions about receiving support for OCD from a spouse or from other people that you might be in ministry with working with.

Now, back on episode 142, we did have, How Do I Tell Someone I Have OCD? That episode may be particularly helpful for some of you if that’s something you’re wrestling with.

Now, I do want to have like a marriage and family, more relationship type expert on to talk with us about involving spouses in treatment processes and what that would look like.

So that will be coming in the future when I find the right person to connect with and we’re able to record that. I think that that would be a very helpful episode for the audience, ’cause I know that that’s something that comes up a lot.

We have other things that I’m still trying to curate guests for.

We are gonna do an interview at some point on OCD and autism overlap, hopefully one more with family situations and marriages this summer peripherally. If it all comes together, we’re going to have another personal stories, theories of people who have struggled with OCD.

I’d love to have an episode on Christian neuroplasticity, being a parent with OCD. I think there are so many great topic suggestions, and some of these I would really feel more comfortable addressing with guests that know more about it, certain aspects than I do, especially since I don’t work with children with OCD.

That hasn’t been my experience and haven’t really done a whole lot of family therapy or couples counseling in that realm.

We had someone reach out recently who had experienced trauma. They had been in remission from OCD symptoms and then experienced a trauma, which seemed to open up and exacerbate. I don’t know if it was a new theme or a prior theme that had come back up from their past.

And so, know that intersection of trauma and OCD, it’s something that I feel very passionate about in dealing with some of those, whether it’s childhood traumas or adult traumas, things that seem to be really stuck.

I’ve just found in my experience, that can exacerbate OCD symptoms or cause this high level of hypervigilance in the body.

We also know that about 25% of people with an OCD diagnosis also qualify for A-P-T-S-D diagnosis, and many other people that don’t necessarily qualify for a full-blown PTSD diagnosis have been impacted by some type of difficult life experience that has ingrained and affected how they view themselves or how they view God or the world around them in terms of safety.

So if you feel like the trauma piece is really loud, I would say don’t be afraid to talk to a trauma therapist that knows about OCD.

Even if they would say, I really focus more on trauma than I focus on OCD, how much of that are they able to understand or are they able to work with an OCD specialist to help you kind of get pair and get the treatment that you need?

You know, that may look different for different people.

It may mean that you go to a trauma therapist for a little while and then you go to an OCD specialist for a little while. It may be that you go to the OCD specialist and then go to the trauma therapist.

Just kind of depending on how your symptoms are, what feels the loudest right now? What feels the most urgent that you need to attend to?

And usually professionals can help you tease out those pieces if they aren’t able to deal with both.

In an ideal world, you would have somebody have a therapist that had an understanding of trauma and an understanding of OCD to be able to craft a good, solid treatment plan for you moving forward.

We had a question about obsessional concerns regarding Mark of the bees type situations.

I’m not an expert on end-times theology by any means, but my understanding is that that’s not something we can just do accidentally, but that this is something that during the time of tribulation that people are going to voluntarily get in order to be able to buy and sell goods, and that’s gonna be a decision that has to be made.

I don’t know that believers are gonna be able to get that. I don’t know how all of that works, but I do know that it is not something that we have to be concerned about in the here and now according to how I am reading scripture.

Other people may look at that differently or examine times of tribulations. Some people believe we’re in it right now. Other people believe it hasn’t started yet. We haven’t gone through it, and that is of course up for debate and interpretation.

What we do know is if you’re so wrapped up in that, any type of these type of theological issues, if you’re super wrapped up or stuck on it and it’s getting in the way of you living your life, it would make sense. That’s OCD, distracting you from the things that are most important to you, that you really value, whether that’s getting up, going to work, connecting with your family and friends and ministry partners, and that’s what we want to be able to do to help you function in those realms so that you can keep moving forward in your walk with Christ.

Thank you so much for listening today, and I hope that this Q&A episode was helpful for you.

If it was, maybe we’ll do one every once in a while. We’ll kind of keep it around.

I am hopeful that maybe we’ll be able to do a relationship series at some point or another. And I would love to kind of have some different guests and talk about OCD in the context of various relationships.

As always, we love suggestions and questions, even if it takes us a little while to be able to get people on the podcast who can speak to some of those issues.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith in OCD is a production of by the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

239. Discerning God’s Call in a New Season with Mandy Horne

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie sits down with Mandy Horne, a registered nurse, board-certified holistic nurse, and nurse coach, to explore how to discern God’s call in a new season, recognize His guidance through uncertainty, and take faithful steps forward when the full path is not yet clear.

Episode Highlights:

  • How to discern whether God may be calling you into a new season
  • Why God may give you one step instead of the entire plan
  • How prayer, Scripture, community, and wise counsel can help confirm a decision
  • Why grief and joy can exist together during major life transitions
  • How abiding in Christ can help you recognize His voice when fear and uncertainty get loud

Episode Summary

How Do You Know If a Decision Is Actually God’s Timing or Just Your Own Impatience?

We want a clear sign, a checklist, something that removes all the guesswork before we commit to anything. But that’s rarely how God works, and learning to sit in that tension is its own kind of spiritual discipline.

This week’s guest on the Christian Faith and OCD podcast, Mandy Horne, is a registered nurse, board certified holistic nurse, and nurse coach who spent 25 years working in hospitals, most of it on postpartum units with moms and babies, before God moved her into nurse coaching. She tells me what it was like when everyone around her kept pointing to the same “logical” next step, a nurse practitioner degree, while her stomach turned every time it came up. That gap between what looks smart on paper and what actually brings peace is worth paying attention to.

What Does Obedience Look Like When You Don’t Know What Comes Next?

Sometimes faith means taking a step before you have the whole picture. Mandy shares how she learned to move forward without having every detail, trusting that God would provide what she needed as she continued to follow Him.

For anyone facing a decision, transition, or season of waiting, this raises an important question: What if you don’t need the entire map before taking the next step?

How Can You Tell If God Is Really Confirming a Direction?

When we’re trying to discern God’s will, we may look for one unmistakable answer. Mandy describes how prayer, Scripture, wise counsel, and unexpected encouragement from other believers became part of recognizing God’s direction.

The challenge is learning to seek confirmation without turning discernment into a search for absolute certainty. Staying close to Christ can help us become more familiar with His voice and more attentive when He leads us.

Why Can a New Season Feel Both Exciting and Difficult?

Transitions don’t always feel the way we expect them to. Mandy experienced both joy and grief as her daughter left for college and as she began moving toward a different professional season.

Whether you’re facing an empty nest, career change, shifting family responsibilities, or another major transition, you may find yourself holding excitement and loss at the same time. Learning to make room for both can be an important part of moving forward.

What If You Feel Like You Need More Certainty Before You Move Forward?

It’s tempting to believe we need to know more, prepare more, or have everything figured out before we’re ready to follow God’s direction.

But sometimes the desire for certainty can keep us stuck. Instead of demanding the whole plan, what might change if we focused on staying close to Christ and being faithful with the next step in front of us?

How Do You Trust God When You Can’t See What Comes Next?

When you’re in a season of uncertainty, it’s easy to feel like you need to know how everything will work out before you can move forward. But trusting God doesn’t mean having all the answers. It means remembering His faithfulness, staying close to Him, and trusting Him with the parts of your future you cannot see yet.

Mandy’s experience of following God’s direction through multiple seasons shows how past moments of His faithfulness can become anchors when the future feels uncertain. Remembering what God has already done can give you the courage to trust Him with what comes next.

Tune in to hear Mandy Horne’s story and find encouragement for trusting God’s timing when you’re facing uncertainty, change, or a new season.

Get Mandy’s Sacred Season Starter Kit… for the Midlife Christian Woman

https://gift.wellspringoflifecoaches.com/wellspringssskit

Connect with Mandy:

www.wellspringoflifecoaches.com/

TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@wellspring.rn

Skool Community: https://www.skool.com/wellspringrn/about

Transcript

Carrie: I love today’s episode because there’s a lot of personal testimony here that I think you can learn from about how to know if God is calling you into a new season. Welcome, OCD warriors, to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast, where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories, and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace.

I’m Carrie Bock, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode. I’m joined today by Mandy Horn, registered nurse, board-certified holistic nurse and nurse coach, founder of Wellspring of Life Coaches. With more than 25 years of nursing experience, her own personal health journeys, Mandy really helps midlife women navigate burnout, hormonal changes, caregiving, empty nest, and seasons of transition.

This episode isn’t just for women, though. It’s for anyone who’s navigating transition or change or who is wanting to hear God’s voice. Mandy, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Mandy: I have been married for 25 years, so my husband and I, we’ve been together 28 years altogether. But throughout our 25 years of marriage, we have been interwoven through multiple different ministries from missionaries with The Navigators, college students, then he was a pastor at a church, and now he’s a chaplain.

Mandy: That’s not something I can go to work with him necessarily. It’s a little bit different ministry for our family for the first time. But yes, we have two kiddos. We have one 22-year-old, will be a senior in college, so it’s crazy, and a 19-year-old with special needs. He has Asperger’s and ADHD, OCD, all sorts of things, and he took the last year off and is going to be starting at a technical school.

Mandy: I can’t think what they’re called, trade school type things. My personal kinda path in between all that, I’ve been a nurse for 25 years. Majority of that period of my nursing career was on postpartum with moms and babies. So loved that time, and then the Lord called me out to coaching just a few years ago.

Mandy: So that is where I am now. That was a really quick run-through.

Carrie: Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things that we wanted to dive into a little bit more because you help people who are moving into different seasons of life. I think a lot of times our listeners with OCD really struggle even if they don’t have OCD.

Carrie: Is this something from God? Is it not? I don’t know if this is true for you. It feels like when we’re trying to make these big decisions, it’s like God moves slowly and then quickly sometimes. It’s like slowly, like little things get dropped to us, and then all of a sudden it’s like, “Oh, it’s time.” Like, “I need to move.

Carrie: I need to do the thing.” I don’t know if that’s true for you or not. That’s just something that I’ve seen. But like tell us a little bit about like some of these circumstances that caused you to shift from nursing, that’s a long time in a nursing career, to then nurse coaching.

Mandy: Yeah, definitely. I feel like there were multiple things that kinda led to this, but my own kinda health journey Myself personally, I had three open heart surgeries when I was 19, both genetic things both my grandma and mom had, but not anything that we knew was genetic at that point.

Mandy: Watching my mom and grandma and their health journey That was not very good. I knew that like, okay, is that the path I wanna go down, or is there something I can do to, to prevent this, to change the outcome necessarily? So when the Lord moved us from Texas to Indiana back in 2011, I was just suddenly exposed to a good portion of the people at our church who were doing just things that were different, holistic, preventative healthcare, things like that.

Mandy: And that was just a huge turning point for me because I was curious, I should say. I had always been taught in the medical field and nursing that conventional medicine, traditional nursing, all that stuff were all that there was, and that any holistic practices or things like that were questionable or even kind of ridiculous.

Mandy: It was often like a mock thing, a laughter, a not very cool thing. But as I look back even now, like, I don’t blame any of those people ’cause that’s just what they were taught. They didn’t know any different. There’s lots of stuff out there on the … They play in it, they do it. No, I don’t think … That’s not the heart of

Mandy: Most people is not to cause harm, especially anyone who is called to something in the medical field. That was a little sidescript, but I just really started researching myself. Like, that has just been something that I love doing. I love researching, and I started paying attention to those families, and just noticing that there were more intentional choices when it came to food for their family, environments that they were exposed to.

Mandy: So you kind of have like physical, mental, emotional, all that, how they dealt with stress, and just their overall health, and there were less illnesses. I really can’t even think of anybody who had any chronic health struggles. I wanted to understand why, so that’s why I started really researching it myself.

Mandy: Many of them were part of, like, some MLM companies, you know, oils or different things like that, which made me a little more skeptical, for sure. As I watched and researched myself, I started changing some of those things for our family, like things that we ate, or getting rid of chemicals and toxins that are in our home, and just paying more attention to what we did physically as far as what we put in our bodies, how we took care of our bodies, and that’s including, like, mental, emotional part, and of course, spiritual.

Mandy: Like, that’s the foundation of all of it, our walk with Christ. So I just really dove into it deep. It started out with little things here and there to where there was just a total transformation in our home, and it was just crazy, the results that we saw. And then as I continued working, being a nurse in the hospital, I couldn’t help but not notice how many people came in with things that could’ve been prevented, or most likely could’ve been prevented, by all means.

Mandy: It broke my heart, honestly, just knowing that there was another option, and I couldn’t say anything. You know, you can’t talk about it in the hospital setting or most medical places. I shared with a lot of nurses. Actually, quite a few of us on our unit started doing some things together and just seeing some real changes in their health and their families, and I did get to integrate a few alternative therapies in my hospital.

Mandy: That was a-

Carrie: Wow …

Mandy: crazy experience, but yeah, that- Took almost four years, but it did happen, and it has now gone over to all of the same, the entire system. Like, they have eight locations, so it’s, like, transpired through all of them. So that’s been pretty cool to see, ’cause that was just something the Lord laid on my heart, and I thought, like, that would be it.

Mandy: I thought that was that pivotal moment. The Lord used me to get that into some of the hospitals, but then I just didn’t feel a peace or, like, that was the end. Felt like that was more the starting point, kind of like what you just said a minute ago, the starting point of that transition for me, where He just was like, “Okay, you obeyed me in this one little thing, and now I have something else for you to do.”

Carrie: Tell us about, like, what kind of small changes were you seeing? I’m curious about specifically with your special needs son. What did you notice kind of as you changed some maybe food or environmental things? Was it just less stress on the body made it easier to manage, like, symptoms?

Mandy: Yeah, gut health is one of the biggest things.

Mandy: So when you’re eating real natural food, not getting foods that have hormones or added antibiotics and all these other things that they add to our foods, the dyes that are added, all those kind of things, um, those just cause more inflammation. And there’s that gut-brain connection that is just absolutely amazing, that connection there.

Mandy: So by healing his gut, and not just him, but our whole family. My daughter really struggled with a lot of anxiety. My husband, pain and different things. I always had real bad reflux and migraines. And making those transitions just changed everything. I would love to be able to say that, you know, my son is no longer autistic or

Mandy: He still had those tendencies, but actually a total different side thing. Just a couple years ago, I dove into homeopathy. Um, I don’t teach. I’m not a homeopath, so I don’t teach that. But had never heard of it. It was just another one of those just random holistic options. And I always thought, “Okay, well, that, I’ll try everything, but not that, ’cause that’s really weird.

Mandy: I don’t understand it.” But we did. I finally did, and that has made the biggest transformation for my son, which was absolutely crazy. Anyhow, but I can get deeper on that, but I’m not a homeopath. I don’t wanna speak incorrectly on it.

Carrie: Gotcha. So interesting just that the change in environment really caused you to do some more research, caused you to try a few things, and you saw some changes in your family.

Carrie: That bled over into work. This is really interesting, too, because I think when God moves us, there’s a certain level of unsettled. Like you were saying, it’s like, “Oh, this is cool, but oh, that wasn’t all there was. So this wasn’t, like, the end point of what God wanted me to do. Like, there’s something a little, like, stirring in my spirit.

Carrie: Maybe there’s something more here.” So tell us about that, kind of like as you were maybe wrestling or praying through that. What came up for you?

Mandy: I was unsettled. I didn’t feel competent. I think I’ve kind of said that before. I feel like as the enemy starts to bring just constant self-doubt to us, and we can either grab hold of that and take that thought captive and turn to the Lord and seek His truth and that possible lie that we’re speaking to ourselves.

Mandy: I felt like I really had to have all the answers to, like, be an expert in everything before the Lord could use me. So I feel like for several years, I was just researching, digging more, trying to get all these different certifications, trying to become just the expert, but then realizing that I didn’t need that.

Mandy: Like, God, He doesn’t call the ones who are already knowledgeable and have all the answers, know everything, but He calls you, and then He provides. He prepares, He provides for us. He gives us the word. Invite the Holy Spirit, and He will walk with you through that It’s really that one step at a time is what I’ve seen really is taking one obedient step at a time.

Mandy: And you’re not gonna have the whole picture out front. Like, He doesn’t give us the whole map or blueprint or anything, but He’s that light for that one step to take the next step, and then just kind of build on that. There was a period of time when I first started seeking what exactly the Lord was calling me to do next, where He showed me, uh, coaching.

Mandy: I had actually never heard of coaching. And then He said, “Yes,” but He said, “But wait.” And that was confusing for me, I think. But as I look back and reflect, that was the time it was my daughter’s senior year in high school. There was just a lot going on in our family. We actually moved my parents here from Texas and built a home together, so we were all learning to adjust to that in one space.

Mandy: But I know that what was nice was having just that peace of knowing, okay, this isn’t the right time. When it is, He’ll show me. And just continuing to seek His truth, be in the Word, pray through it, ask for a wise counsel of friends, family, church members to kind of confirm that. And when I say that, I always wanna say, I didn’t say, “Hey, can you confirm to me that I’m in God’s will?”

Mandy: It was more just like, yeah, it was praying that, “Lord, would you bring that confirmation if I’m in your will, if this is the direction?” And it was probably the coolest thing I’ve experienced in my years of walking with the Lord, was just how randomly it was, how He would send another believer to just say something to me that maybe they didn’t have any idea necessarily what it meant, but it was that confirmation that the Lord sent.

Mandy: And, and I like to encourage people with that. If the Lord lays something on your heart for someone else, share it. Like, that’s an act of obedience there, you sharing that because you have no idea what that is gonna mean for that person. So I think I got off the trail there.

Carrie: No, I think that’s good. I’m on this book-writing journey that the Lord has brought me to, and it’s been a very long journey of thinking about writing a book, of thinking about different topics, of really feeling like it wasn’t the right time.

Carrie: Like you said, yeah, maybe that’s for me someday, but I’m just gonna lay that to the side and just trust God with that. And different people have said things like, “You should write a book,” or, “I would love more information about this,” et cetera. And so it’s just interesting. And I don’t know exactly where that journey is gonna go fully, but it’s, uh, quite a messy process.

Carrie: But I can definitely see how it’s been a long time coming. It’s not been a rushed process. And I think sometimes we’re so much in a rush. Like, “I gotta know right now, and I gotta know how it’s all gonna turn out and make sure it’s okay,” and God doesn’t give you that. Like you were saying, it’s more like, no, God gives you the peace.

Carrie: You’re on the right track. This is just put one step in front of the other, the road that you’re going down. And I think really having the time to devote to it, where you knew, like, your family was gonna be more settled, your daughter was gonna be graduated, and all of that, that makes sense. How did you have that assurance that it was time when those things settled?

Mandy: Yeah. I feel like the assurance didn’t come from, like, having one big dramatic sign or knowing, like, every detail of exactly what I should do. So that’s for sure. I feel like he, like I mentioned before, he doesn’t give us that whole blueprint up front. So I was kind of praying through, this is pre-finding, like, the coaching option.

Mandy: Everyone kept saying, “You need to become a nurse practitioner. You need to do this or that.” And I had just no peace about becoming a nurse practitioner. In fact, it kind of made me sick to my stomach every time that it came up. But I experienced, like, a deep peace And just recognition when I did discover the nurse coaching thing.

Mandy: God, like, repeatedly confirmed that direction through prayer and scripture and other believers, like I mentioned. I sensed a clear instruction to remain focused during that time on my family for that season, and then when that timing finally changed, that calling was still there, and I was more prepared to receive it.

Mandy: And I, I can tell you the moment, like, that the Lord just brought me this peace. Honestly, it just was in a moment of grieving my daughter being off at college. Have you experienced the emptiness in your kids off yet? No. Okay.

Carrie: I am qu- quite far from that.

Mandy: Yeah, I didn’t think you had yet, but just prepare your heart for that.

Mandy: It was a lot harder than I expected. I think we long– We see our kids succeeding, doing these things. We think it’s just gonna be all peace and joy and wonderful, and it is for some people. But for my husband and I, it was kind of devastating. Like, we were happy and sad all at once. There was joy and grief all together.

Mandy: It was just a mix of emotions we didn’t anticipate having. And as I was literally just crying and crying to the Lord for her protection, for her experience there, for the people she would encounter on campus as they would continue to pour into her and her walk, the Lord literally just laid on my heart, “Okay, now it’s your turn.

Mandy: Now you can go and pursue that.” It was just a moment where I just– Did I hear you right? Are you sure? I don’t think so. I’m a hot mess right now. And the Lord just gave me such a peace, and my time with Him through the Word, confirmation after confirmation, and that’s when I was saying that the Lord brought several people from church who just came up and randomly said things that I knew without a doubt was from the Lord, just that confirmation.

Mandy: That was just sweetness of how much our Heavenly Father loves us and cares and how He pursues us.

Carrie: Yeah. I mean, just the whole structure of your day because you had been homeschooling as well, that now you had a lot more time to dedicate to things. The happy/sad with that. I’m sad that I’m not– and still investing in this way, and the happy of, like, she’s launching out into the world, and you have done the beginning part of the parenting, right?

Carrie: And now there’s some letting go. Not that the parenting ends. I think we’ve brought this up before, and I really, I guess, wanna stress to people that in our Christian life, we don’t wanna just go to God when we feel like we need something or we feel like we need an answer. Here I am, God, I need this answer, or I have this uncertainty, and I need you to kinda, like, fill this gap.

Carrie: How do you feel like that time of, like, abiding in Christ, of whatever that looks like, the worship, the prayer, being in community On a day-to-day basis, how do you feel like that connects with when people are making these big transitions of decisions, like for a new season?

Mandy: Honestly, I really can’t fathom, like, trying to navigate life, especially big transitions, without that walk with Christ, bringing that hope, like the light in the dark world.

Mandy: I mean, you know all this crazy stuff going on in our world today, but, like, living in the dark, and we hear so many voices, I feel like, coming out of so many opinions and responsibilities of all these things that we’ve gotta take care of, and fears and uncertainties and all that, and it’s just constantly consuming.

Mandy: But when we abide in Christ alone, that’s a reminder that we don’t have to understand the entire story, because we trust the one who’s writing that story for us. One of the verses that I go to often, I’m trying to think right now where. I think it’s John 15:4, the, “Abide in me, and I in you. And apart from me, you can do nothing.”

Mandy: To me, that abiding means remaining closely connected to Christ, and that can be, you know, prayer, scripture, time alone with Him. Worship is a huge one that I feel like is so empowering for me That daily dependence on him that keeps us close to him so we can recognize his voice and when he tells us.

Mandy: You’ve probably heard multiple times, if you aren’t spending time with your spouse, you know you’re not gonna know them. But the more time you spend with them, you know their voice, you know their sneeze, their cough, all the little sounds that they make. And it’s the same thing in our relationship with the Lord, that being close to him, we can recognize his voice.

Mandy: And when he does clearly call us or tell us to maybe take that next step or whatever it is. And we have a lot of just really cool testimonies, I feel like over the years, of where the Lord has come in and intervened and told us to do something that seemed absolutely crazy. And in fact, we had one before moving from Texas to Indiana, where it was kind of like the joke of the community because we were like, “The Lord is telling us to move, to leave, to go somewhere.”

Mandy: We didn’t know where at that point yet, but we knew clearly the Lord said what to do. The Lord literally told me, “Start packing things and sell all of this.” Like, we sold all of our furniture, everything, and we had not taken on a new position or anything but the Lord clearly told my husband that, “You’re leaving this ministry,” that was leaving Navigators, “and I have somewhere else for you.”

Mandy: And so when my daughter was in public school at that point, she was in kindergarten. She was in first grade at that point. Yeah, they were like, “Where are you going?” We’re like, “We don’t know yet, but we trust the Lord. He told us to pack.” And literally when we sold our stuff, all of our stuff sold in one weekend, and I’m talking multiple people.

Mandy: It wasn’t like one person came and bought it all, like everything. Anyhow, that’s just a small little just testimony. If you start to know what it feels like when he tells you to do something and to act in obedience.

Carrie: Yeah. And then the opportunity, like the door opened there really fast or something? Was it like one of those situations?

Mandy: Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah.

Mandy: Literally, I can share. It was Easter Sunday of 2011. We had been packed for a couple months at that point, and a church in Indiana called us. And just to know a little backstory before that, when God was telling us to pursue family and children’s ministry, we were like, “Okay, great.” So my husband put out applications all over Texas and, like, there were no bites, no bites, no bites.

Mandy: Or, like, we’d have interviews and it was like, “That is not where God’s calling us.” And the Lord brought us to a point where he was like, “Do you trust me? Why are you limiting my boundaries, like, on a global map?” And we’re like, “Well, okay, maybe we’ll trust you with that part. Where are you thinking that you wanna send us?”

Carrie: Yeah.

Mandy: There was, like, a church in Kansas. I was trying to think where it was, and then there were, like, five in Indiana, and literally I was like, “Okay, where’s Indiana again? I don’t really remember where that state is. Who in the world goes to Indiana?” Yeah. Like Indiana.

Carrie: That’s

Mandy: funny. But Easter Sunday, yeah, a church from Indiana called us, and we started talking to them.

Mandy: We had to sit on my son’s bed because we had kept our kids’ furniture. That was it. Everything else had already been sold. My husband and I were sleeping on a blow-up mattress. We didn’t have a kitchen table. Our couches were gone. Everything was gone, and they didn’t know that. They flew us out for an interview.

Mandy: We were here for, like, five days, and then when we got back home, they wanted us to have a video call, which was very rare back then to have video calls, of course, in 2011. And it was with all the elders so they could do, like, their final interview, and they were like, “Well, we just want you to know we’ve already made a decision.

Mandy: We love you. We want you guys here. Like, how soon do you think you guys can be here?” We’re like, “Next week.” And they’re like, “Well, don’t you need to, like, pack or sell your hou-” We’re like, “No.” We were renting. We were like, we had already released the rent and our whole house is packed and ready, ’cause God told us to be ready.

Mandy: That’s a very short end of that story, but it was just an amazing– And we always reflect back to that. There was a time my husband left that church that God moved us to Indiana for just a couple years ago to become a chaplain. And we were just like, “Man, did you really bring us here, like, for him to not stay there?”

Mandy: I mean, he was there for seven years. We can’t deny the testimony of the Lord bringing us here. And then we thought we would move back to Texas for sure. We’re gonna move back to Texas. You know, we homeschool. We don’t have to stay here. The Lord said, “No, this is where I want you. I want you here in Indiana.”

Mandy: We’re like, “Okay.” And then we moved my parents here, so now we’re here for life, I guess.

Carrie: Man, I love those stories because I do think they provide what I’d call, like, an anchor point. In Joshua, when they were crossing the Jordan River, he’s like, “Take a stone. You’re gonna remember that day that God, oh, parted the Jordan River so that we could walk across and go to the Promised Land.”

Carrie: And I think that God gives us those stones kind of in our own life, and we have to be willing to not forget them, to make some type of, like, write it down, put it in our brain, make a piece of art so that we remember to look back and say, like, “Yeah, God did that. And if God did that, then God can do this over here.

Carrie: God can lead me into this next season. If God got me through the last season, He’s gonna lead me forward into the next one.” You talked about a little bit of grief and loss in terms of going from homeschool mom and, like, launching your daughter out to college to the transition, the grief and loss that occurred there.

Carrie: Was there some grief and loss from leaving the hospital, from leaving, like, postpartum work that you wrestled with?

Mandy: Yeah. I’m not completely gone from the hospital. I actually still work part-time, so I like to-

Carrie: Oh, okay …

Mandy: still say that. But yeah, there was tremendous … I feel like there was absolutely grief in that.

Mandy: Let me kind of backtrack a little, see. So it was something that was on my heart for so long. So there were one point, as far as the nursing part, there was tremendous joy and anticipation of being able to just leave at that point because I felt like, surely God doesn’t want me here anymore. He’s transitioning me to this other place.

Mandy: And right now, just living in that middle transition rather than standing, like, on that side where I had been for so long. I’d been at the hospital for so long, just longing for getting to the other side. Now I’m in that balancing, trying to balance between when is time to let go of more hours, those kind of things.

Mandy: But being here is just surreal To know that it had been on my heart and the Lord had been calling me to this for so long, I’m not saying there’s not days that are hard, because almost every day is hard, for sure, but I know this is the Lord, what He has called me to. There’s definitely a difference in knowing, like, what He’s calling you to, when to take that first step of obedience, and to be faithful in pursuing what He’s called you to.

Mandy: I feel like coaching brings me such a joy, and being able to pour into the women in a way that I never felt like I had the opportunity before. When I did nursing on the floor for so long, I prayed every day on my way to the hospital. I prayed that He would give me the right patient, the right person at the right time, and it was amazing to see the interaction and how

Mandy: I don’t know if you know how the hospital world works, but you have, like, say, 50 patients, and you have 10 nurses, and then everyone’s just randomly assigned five patients or something like that. It was so awesome to see how the Lord put His hand even on that during that season. That was my calling during that season, um, without a doubt.

Mandy: And to see how the patients that He gave me, the interactions, being able to plant seeds or maybe confirm, it was so crazy how often I had other maybe moms that were having babies and who preferred a more holistic side, whereas some of the other nurses would have been very negative and given them grief in that situation, if you know what I mean.

Mandy: Seeing His hand on me during that time, and even the days that I still work for the hospital, how He still intercedes and He’s still using me in that time, compared to the nursing, where I just feel total freedom to be myself, to be able to share what has just empowered me and given me just hope for people.

Mandy: And one of the things I coach through is not just physical health, but the main foundation is that spiritual foundation of where they are in their walk with Christ. Because without that foundation, nothing else matters. That is something that I love being able to share that, ’cause I can’t do that at the hospital.

Mandy: I cannot speak. Unless someone speaks Jesus or something first, I cannot say anything. So being able to have that freedom now, and for clients that come to me, majority, in fact, all of them are believers typically. I’ve had a couple who weren’t, but I trusted that the Lord brought those people so I could plant seeds in their lives.

Mandy: There’s been grief about leaving that one side, but then joy. There’s been grief about not being able to be fully into coaching yet. So it’s kind of that mixture, that mixture of that joy and grief, and I feel like they kind of come hand-in-hand. Kind of like when we look at when your child goes off to college and you have joy and grief there.

Mandy: You have joy that they’re doing what you have prepared them for, but then grief that’s gonna change kind of your life and relationship almost forever at that point.

Carrie: Let’s talk a little bit about what is it that you do through Nurse Coaching, like how do you help people with transitions, and you kinda spoke to looking at several different aspects of health.

Mandy: I help women who are in midlife seasons, so that 40 and up age range just kind differs. I have quite a few, like, in their 60s and even a couple in their 70s. I mean, if you look back, you went from being a teenager to maybe a newlywed, then all of a sudden becoming a parent. All these different stages and transitions.

And for so long I feel like it’s just a natural, easy flow of transition that we kind of anticipate and expect to come with life. All of a sudden midlife comes. I think most of us look forward to midlife of my kids are grown, you know, I don’t have that responsibility as much anymore, depending on where you’re at.

And then maybe you’re at a pivotal point in your career. Many of the women I talk to are at a point where they’re really successful and finally reached, like, that, that kind of main point that they’ve been trying for for so long. Sometimes it’s really unexpected to have these shifts and that empty nest, that stirring on your heart that you didn’t anticipate.

You finally got to where you thought you were gonna be, and it’s not quite what you thought it was gonna look like. A lot of the women I speak with are just kind of really on the pivotal edge. They’ve poured so much into their family and their careers and all these things for so many years, that their walk with Christ isn’t exactly where they thought it would be at this point either.

So there’s just, like, a million transitions, a million things happening all at once from physical, mental, emotional changes that hit us, aren’t necessarily always what we thought it was gonna be at this point. I really help women to slow down and reconnect in their identity with Christ, to recognize, like, where The peace might be leaking out and paying attention to the desires and gifts that God has repeatedly placed on their hearts.

Midlife, it’s more than a change in circumstance, whatever that is, empty nest or anything, but there’s just a real identity transition. Each woman comes to me with a different place, so there might be some physical things, maybe hormone changes is the biggest one for sure that we talk about and go through.

A lot of people are dealing with insulin imbalance and gut health that’s a mess or fear, grief, trauma is huge right now. I see a lot of women that are dealing with something from years back they’ve pushed down for so long because they’ve been so busy as a mom or in their careers that so many of these things just got pushed down, and not realizing how it just can often start festering back up and really messing us up.

It all connects, the spiritual, mental, emotional, physical, all of that connects. When you don’t have one of those things in alignment, it can often throw other things out of balance. That’s where I really try to help the ladies pour into where they’re at physically, where they’re at spiritually, mentally, emotionally.

Carrie: And there’s a level, too, where what took to get you maybe to that pivotal point or whatever you wanna say, or the success, it’s like you can no longer run 100 miles per hour on the treadmill. And so if people got used to that way of life and now their body is telling them, like we don’t have the physical energy or the emotional energy or sometimes the relational energy that we used to have for certain relationships that are draining.

Carrie: Like you said, the peace is leaking out all over the place. I like that phrase. I’m gonna have to ponder that a little bit more.

Mandy: And you bring up the relationships. The boundaries is a huge one. I feel like for women just, I think we feel like we need to be there immediately for everyone, and so it’s so much harder in midlife.

Like we can only handle so much, I think, and that’s part of that physical, mental, emotional. So learning how to have healthy boundaries with different people, even your grown kids and grandkids and those kind of things where you think that, “I’ve gotta say yes to everything,” but learning to have, like, boundaries to take care of yourself still in there.

Carrie: Yeah. That is really huge, and I know that sometimes it’s like saying no to one thing means you get to say yes to something else. And I’ve found for myself it’s much easier to say, “This is what I’m able to do right now,” versus just giving out like a flat no. “Here’s what I’m able to do or not able to do.”

Mandy: Exactly. But you have to know that ahead of time. Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah, you have to know that. Like be connected to yourself to know what you’re able to say yes to even. I think this is just incredibly timely conversation, and I think it’s gonna be helpful for many of our listeners, so I appreciate you coming and sharing your wisdom with us.

Mandy: Absolutely. Happy to do that.

Carrie: We’ll put your link to your website in the show notes and where people can find you.

Mandy: All right. Thank you for having me.

Carrie: Hey, if you love the podcast, I know you’re gonna love our email newsletter. It is sent out once a week on Wednesdays when we have new episodes come out.

Carrie: It’s an opportunity for me to share little devotional thoughts with you about what God is teaching me, and those on our email list are the first to know about things happening with the podcast. So if you’d like to be an email insider, all you have to do is go to carriebock.com and sign up for our email list.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith and OCD Carrie: is a production of By The Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment.

238. Is God Asking Me to Give This Up?

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie shares a personal story about how God led her to let go of something she had enjoyed for years, using that experience to help Christians with OCD recognize the difference between the Holy Spirit’s gentle conviction and fear.

You’ll Learn

  • How to recognize the difference between the Holy Spirit’s conviction and OCD’s urgency.
  • Why enjoying something doesn’t automatically make it an idol.
  • Biblical questions to ask when evaluating the entertainment you consume.
  • Why lasting spiritual transformation begins in the heart, not through fear or pressure.
  • How to respond to personal convictions without falling into condemnation or legalism.

How Do You Know When God Is Leading You to Let Something Go?

Recently, I made the decision to stop watching a certain type of TV show that I had enjoyed for years. It wasn’t something I felt pressured to do, and it wasn’t a decision I made overnight. As I reflected on that experience, I realized it shed light on a question I hear often from Christians with OCD.

How Can I Tell if God Is Convicting Me or If It’s Just OCD?

As a therapist, one of the questions I hear most often is, “How do I know if this is God speaking or if it’s just my OCD?” Those moments can feel confusing, especially when fear and conviction seem to overlap. In this episode, I share what my own experience taught me and why that distinction matters.

Does Enjoying Something Mean It Has Become an Idol?

I’ve worked with many Christians who become anxious because they enjoy something. They wonder if that enjoyment means they’ve put it ahead of God. This episode explores a different way of thinking through that question and the biblical principles that helped me evaluate my own situation.

How Should Christians Think About the Entertainment They Consume?

Not every decision about entertainment has a simple answer. Rather than looking for a list of rules, I found myself asking a different set of questions. Those questions helped me think more carefully about what was shaping my heart and my relationship with God.

What Does God’s Gentle Work in Our Lives Look Like?

One of the things that stood out to me most about this experience was what happened after I made my decision. It reminded me that God often works in our hearts in ways we don’t immediately recognize. I hope this conversation encourages you to be open to His leading without being driven by fear.

If you’ve ever wrestled with whether God is asking you to let go of something, or you’ve struggled to tell the difference between His conviction and fear, I hope you’ll listen to the full episode.

Transcript

Hi, I’m Carrie with Christian Faith and OCD. One thing that I see a lot of Christians struggle with, with OCD is this thought that, “Well, maybe if I really like something, that must mean that it’s an idol or it’s bad in some way, and God wants me to give it up.” I thought I would share a personal story for you of something that I gave up recently Welcome OCD warriors to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast, where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories, and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace.

I’m Carrie Bach, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode I’m not going to go into massive detail about it, but I will tell you that it was a TV show, and it wasn’t really just about this TV show, it was more about the genre of TV shows that this one in particular represented.

So it wasn’t just that I gave up necessarily that TV show, but other TV shows that were similar to it. And the whole entire process was actually really peaceful, and it got me thinking about how different it is than the OCD spiral operates. So the OCD comes in with a panic and says, “Hey, you really, really like this thing.

Maybe God doesn’t want you to do it,” or, “You don’t wanna do that thing. Well, therefore, maybe it means God wants you to do it.” Uses, like, this weird reverse logic against you. But in my own personal story, I was watching this TV show for many years, consuming this type of content for many years. The reason I’m not gonna go into depth is because I don’t want you to spiral out if you happen to watch these type of shows.

But what came to mind one day, I had finished the episode and I realized, you know what? I’m not in a good head space mentally, emotionally, and just something about this just really doesn’t jive with my spirit internally. And I thought, “Is this actually really benefiting me, or is it doing the exact opposite?

Is this something that’s tearing me down spiritually?” And like I said, it wasn’t a panic or a rush of anything that I had to do right away. It was more just a moment of contemplation that I believe came from the Holy Spirit of what is actually the fruit of this experience that you’re dealing with. And I wanted to bring up this verse for you.

This is 1 Corinthians 6:12, and Paul says, “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything.” That’s the ESV. Paul goes on to talk about food, but then he also goes on to talk about sexual immorality, so the context of the verse is really about sexual immorality and some freedoms that people were taking in the Corinthian church that they shouldn’t have been.

However, this verse got me thinking, and then there’s also another verse that talks about being innocent of evil, and I didn’t look that up ahead of time. But this comes up in Romans 16:19. The second part of the verse says, “I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.” That was another thing that came to mind was, am I consuming something that has some sense of evil in it?

Now, I’m not saying, like, the entire TV show was evil. I think there obviously are positive and negative aspects to many different things in our lives that we may come across on the internet or on TV. However, for me personally, after I had this evaluation moment after watching the TV show one day, I thought, “You know what?

I think I’m gonna stop watching this.” There wasn’t any grief over it. I wasn’t upset about it. I wasn’t panicked about it. I wasn’t worried about it. I just said, “You know what? Let me just see how I feel about disengaging, about not consuming this type of material anymore.” In the context really of what God has been doing in my life, I really feel like I’ve been in a place of refinement where God has been rooting out things that don’t need to be there, where God has been cutting off things that aren’t producing healthy fruit, where He has been just really refining different areas of my life, whether that’s relationships or activities I’m engaging in, the way I’m taking care of my health, et cetera.

And kinda knew already in the context, like, that’s what God has been working with me on, and part of that refinement process is just being able to be here and show up for all of you in a really healthy way, and that’s obviously something that I am desiring to do and desiring to honor God with my whole life and love Him with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength Several months ago, I didn’t exactly write down the date of when this occurred.

I’m not even sure how I would go about finding that out, but I know that it’s been several months now, and I can honestly say that I don’t miss it. So this was another important piece I wanted to share with all of you, is that I really feel like the Holy Spirit led me towards cutting something out of my life, and it doesn’t feel like a loss.

I don’t miss it. I’m not yearning for that. I’m not saying, “Oh, man, I remember when I used to watch that and it was really great.” I just don’t want to have anything to do with it anymore. And that was the part that actually surprised me the most. I found it, like, really bizarre. I was like, “Wait a minute.

What do you mean?” Like, this is something that I look forward to, like, new episodes coming out. Like, “Oh, there’s a new episode. I should go listen to it. What day does it come out on streaming that I’m gonna go stream it and watch it and consume this content?” I used to be, like, really excited about it. Now, I genuinely don’t care.

I’m not looking for it. I’m not interested. I genuinely believe that this has been a change from the inside out, that as God has been working on my heart, that He has removed a desire for something that I used to have and used to really enjoy. So a lot of times with OCD, what I see is that people get really works focused and get very externally focused and forget that we’re in a relationship with God on a day-to-day basis.

It’s a daily walk. It’s over the period of our life, however long that is. It’s not a sprint. It’s not a, we have to do all the things right now. There’s not a sense of, I’m not gonna be completely transformed by God tomorrow. And take it one step at a time. Like, as you spend time in the Word, and the closer that you are abiding in Christ, the more that you are spending time with Him, the more that you are getting to know Him.

Like, this transformation happens at a heart level, and then it extends out to what you do and how you live. So if there is something that you’re panicking over about whether or not God wants you to give that up, I wanted to send out this short encouragement to say that God does not bring this intense level of fear upon you to change.

It’s the kindness of the Lord that leads us to repentance. So if you’re in an immense amount of anxiety, that’s not being produced by the Holy Spirit. It is probably being produced by OCD. And so just take some time. Now, what I will say is just be open. If you’re consuming some type of content online, or if you are– have been following along with something and you do feel convicted, just leave that openness and that willingness to lay it down and say, “Okay, let me try to lay this down.”

Give it over to the Lord, disengage, and not continue to consume that. I know that TV shows are really interesting, especially if you’re following along with certain series. Sometimes they can start out kind of benign, they can be okay, and then they can dip into some really dark territories, and my husband and I have watched certain TV shows like that where all of a sudden it was going down this really dark road theme where it didn’t start out that way at all, and started out more as a lighthearted type of show.

So just be conscious of what your spirit is telling you and really being able to examine what’s the fruit of this experience. But to make these types of decisions, OCD can get super hyper-focused on specific decisions like this. Should I watch this TV show? Should I not? Is it a sin if I watch this? Is it not?

And I think that for me, I wouldn’t say to someone, you know, “Hey, if you watch this particular TV show, that’s a sin,” unless you’re just watching something that is about the abuse of children or females or et cetera, things that we know that are very clearly against our faith. But pornography-type stuff.

But if you are just watching television, I think that God deals with each of us individually, and certainly this is probably something that I could have given up a long time ago, and I think probably had wrestled with that at different points in my life, at different seasons. And I’m glad and thankful that God didn’t give up on me and didn’t shame me and didn’t condemn me for the period of time that I did hold onto it.

But I’m also very thankful to be on the other side to say that as a result of letting this go, like, that I can definitely see there’s more peace in my life, and the fruit has been that I’m not constantly getting sad when I watch this or anxious or being aware of certain things that I just don’t need to have any knowledge or awareness.

I know that this is a little bit of a shorter episode today, but I hope that it helps you as you’re thinking through or if you’ve run across this specific obsession for yourself of, is God asking me to give this thing up? I hope that this provides you some sense of grounding and encouraging that the Holy Spirit is loving, patient, gentle, caring towards you and wants your absolute best in your connection with Jesus Christ.

And so we don’t have to be afraid of conviction, because it’s conviction from the Holy Spirit. It’s not condemnation. Keep striving. Keep abiding in Christ. I love all of you, and we’ll be back next week. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area

237. Natural Support for Your Hormones with Celisha Gerber, LAc, ND

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie sits down with naturopathic doctor and acupuncturist Celisha Gerber to explore how natural hormone support can help women understand the connection between hormonal changes, CCD, anxiety, and emotional resilience, while offering practical, faith-centered strategies for working with the body instead of against it. 

Episode Highlights:

  • Why hormonal changes can intensify OCD, anxiety, and intrusive thoughts
  • How perimenopause, stress, and nervous system regulation are deeply connected
  • Simple lifestyle habits that naturally support hormone balance and emotional health
  • The surprising role of nutrition, sleep, movement, and relationships in calming your brain
  • How to recognize what your body is communicating instead of assuming something is wrong

Episode Summary:

Why Do Hormonal Changes Make OCD and Anxiety Feel So Much Worse?

Many women notice their anxiety, OCD, or intrusive thoughts become more intense before their period, around ovulation, or during perimenopause. These shifts can feel confusing, especially when nothing else in life seems to have changed. In this conversation, Celisha explains how hormones influence the brain, nervous system, and stress response. Understanding these connections can help us respond with greater compassion instead of fear and recognize that our bodies may be communicating a need for support.

What Are Natural Ways to Support Hormone Balance?

There isn’t one simple solution for supporting hormone health. Instead, we discuss practical, sustainable habits that work together over time. Nutrition, quality sleep, regular movement, stress management, and nervous system regulation all play an important role in helping our bodies function well. Small, consistent changes often create a stronger foundation than chasing the latest health trend.

How Are Stress, Hormones, and Mental Health Connected?

Chronic stress can affect hormone balance, making anxiety and OCD symptoms feel even more overwhelming. As we care for our nervous system, we’re also supporting the systems God designed to help our bodies adapt, heal, and become more resilient through every season.

Which Daily Habits Can Support Better Hormone Health?

Healthy hormones aren’t built by one supplement or one perfect meal. We talk about simple habits like eating enough protein, supporting blood sugar, prioritizing sleep, moving your body, and cultivating healthy relationships. These everyday choices can strengthen both physical and emotional health without adding unnecessary pressure or perfectionism.

How Can Faith Shape the Way We Care for Our Bodies?

Caring for our bodies is part of faithfully stewarding the gift God has given us. We don’t have to fear every symptom or strive for perfect health. Instead, we can approach our bodies with curiosity, grace, and wisdom while trusting that God walks with us through every step of the healing journey.

I hope this conversation encourages you to care for your body with compassion and gives you practical tools to support both your hormones and your mental health.

Connect with Celisha: www.nd-care.com

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome everyone. Glad that you are tuning in to the podcast with us today. I’m very excited about today’s episode. We’re talking about hormones, specifically with women. Now, if you’re a guy who’s listening, maybe you wanna understand your wife better or another female in your life, we’re happy that you’re here as well.

But we’re talking about balancing hormones naturally to help with OCD and anxiety.

Welcome, OCD warriors, to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast,

where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories, and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace.

I’m Carrie Bock, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode.

This is an episode that I’ve wanted to do for a couple different reasons. One is that so many women have told me, “Hey, when I’m around the time of my period or right before, I’ve just noticed my obsessions are way worse and I’m really struggling a lot more with OCD.”

It could be maybe during ovulation when there’s some shifts and changes, too. I’m also in the very early stages of perimenopause, trying to navigate and figure that whole thing out, and I’m noticing even within myself, I consider myself a reasonably regulated person, but I definitely can feel some of these hormonal shifts and how they’re affecting me mentally, emotionally, and physically.

I just think it’s an important thing for us to talk about. A lot of more people are becoming more aware and more astute and looking for resources online to navigate hormones in our life. So today, I am inviting Salicia Gerber here to talk with us. And tell us a little bit about yourself and the type of work that you do and the people you work with.

Celisha: Well, I am a friend, mother, daughter, sister, wife. I also going through different things, and I see around me loved ones. As a naturopathic doctor and acupuncturist, I help people understand what their bodies are trying to tell them through symptoms. While I work with a variety of health concerns, many of my patients are overwhelmed women struggling with anxiety, hormone imbalances, exhaustion, chronic stress.

The way I approach it is with functional wellness, nervous system regulation, and lifestyle medicine mainly. I believe the body was designed to heal, and when we give it the right environment, support, we remove those obstacles to heal, it does. One of the things I’m most passionate about is helping women realize that they’re not broken.

Their body’s not working against them. It is trying to compensate. So symptoms are often the communication from our body that something needs support, so it’s understanding that and helping them work with them, see what their body needs.

Carrie: Yeah. And I find for myself, too, like I always think of like pain as communication So if something’s hurting, it’s like, okay, what is my body telling me that this area of my body needs that is in pain?

I’ve been through just kind of like a variety of different things that way, so I like that. It’s like you can look at it as communicate with yourself however you want to about your body and your symptoms and say like, “Oh, no, I’m falling apart,” or, “Everything’s broken,” but instead saying, “What is my body actually trying to communicate that I need right now?”

What do you find is the correlation between hormone imbalances and anxiety and OCD just that you’ve seen in your patients that you work with?

Celisha: One of the biggest misconception is that hormones only affect reproduction, and it doesn’t. Hormones are deeply connected to the nervous system and the brain.

The nervous system is constantly wanting to find out, am I safe? So if it perceives safety, we’re able to think clearly, we’re able to rest well, sleep, digest, connect with others, things work well. But when the brain perceives threat, it activates the stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline. Many of the reproductive years, estrogen and progesterone, uh, will buffer that nervous system function against stress, so you don’t feel it as much perhaps.

But I often compare that to shock absorbers in a car. The bumps are still there. You’re still going through the stress, but the ride is a bit smoother with those hormones. And then as women enter the perimenopause, those change in hormones, even on a cyclic basis like you were saying at ovulation and just before the period, there’s significant changes naturally.

But when perimenopause starts, progesterone declines first, and estrogen, while it’s also declining, becomes erratic, so it’s going up and down, up and down in a downward motion. Women suddenly notice more anxiety, more intrusive thoughts, OCD tendencies, sleep disturbances, emotionally overwhelm. And that’s typically because progesterone is an important part of the brain’s calming pathway, specifically GABA signaling if you’ve heard of GABA.

As progesterone declines or becomes erratic, women lose that natural buffering system that help them stay calm and resilient. And at the same time, this fluctuating estrogen that happens affects blood sugar regulation, the sleep quality, serotonin production, and stress resilience. So if you’ve had a history of trauma, anxiety, or OCD, these hormonal shifts, they amplify those symptoms that were already present beneath the surface.

Carrie: And I just wanna say in relationship to that with people, another thing that I hear is, “Well, yeah, I’ve kinda sorta had this OCD for a while, but it’s been manageable. Like, it’s been okay.” And then what will happen is a couple of different things. Either one, there’ll be some type of trauma or major life shift that happens to them.

They lose a loved one, and that kinda rocks their whole world, or they go through a traumatic experience. They become a caregiver. Like, then all of a sudden, there’s extra abusive stress which always makes our mental health symptoms worse. They’re wondering, like, “What in the world happened?” I just feel almost like you’ve gotten knocked off your horse.

Like, you were riding through life, everything was okay. Yeah, okay, I had a little OCD, and then bam. So I could definitely see how that could happen to women in perimenopause because there are also just so many different life changes that happen during that time, depending on ages and stages of children and parents.

I have a weird situation in my life just in the sense that I have a young child in my 40s, whereas a lot of people have teenagers in their 40s that they’re trying to launch out into the world. So I have that stress. Parents, a lot of people’s parents are getting older. I’m weird ’cause my parents have already passed away, but that whole sandwich generation.

Is that something that you see a lot showing up in your patients as well? Just the time period of perimenopause can be unusually stressful as well.

Celisha: Most definitely. Life is not consistent typically. So this time you’re usually straddling caring for parents and caring for children. Maybe work is not stable, so you’re thinking about financial stressors.

Yeah, life always has its challenges, and the change in hormones does impact it. One of the things that is important to understand too is that hormones, they don’t work in isolation. They interact with what we do on a lifestyle basis, how we sleep, our nutrition, how we’re moving, just overall nervous system health.

While we can’t stop aging, there are things that we can do to improve the resilience. So as that buffering declines, there are other systems that actually become even more important than estrogen and progesterone, and we can talk about that if you’re interested.

Carrie: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s really helpful for people to know.

Kind of getting into some lifestyle things that you’re talking about, like getting sunlight. Is that what you’re meaning? Like, those types of things are more important. Movement.

Celisha: Yes. There is a system that works to producing oxytocin, which is a hormone and neurotransmitter. It’s often called the love hormone, and oxytocin’s associated with that trust, connection, gratitude, feelings of safety.

When we are imbalanced and having that question, “Am I safe?” Progesterone, it’s gonna go down over time. It’s not gonna go up. It goes down over time. What we can do is we can take advantage of this hormone, oxytocin, and cultivate that. That actually calms and counteracts the cortisol. Many of things that you can do that increase oxytocin, helping that nervous system to feel safe, is healthy relationships, community, gratitude, service, prayer.

Carrie: That’s really good. I think we underestimate the power, like, of our social relationships and, and interconnectedness. And so it’s like if you feel yourself withdrawing from relationships or you’re not as close to your spouse, or you’re not as close to friendships, like, it might be a good, like you said, warning signal to try to start reconnecting there.

Or if you’ve gotten out of church, and you really need that community and need that support, like, it’s a good time to think about leaning in and what does that look like. Maybe I do need to get more involved in service or in a small group or something like that. And I think some of these, like, proactive approaches that you’re talking about help us feel less victimized by our hormones, because I think a lot of women, and I’ve probably felt that way at different point too, like, “Oh my, I just have this surge of anxiety happening right now, and it feels completely outside of my control.”

What are some other things that people can do to not feel like, “Hey, I’m just totally out of control over maybe mood swings that are happening with them”?

Celisha: Yeah. I teach what’s called the eight laws of health. They correlate with the days of creation in Genesis. If we look at the days of creation, we can gather insight into how we were designed to function, and if we cooperate with that design, we can better live out our purpose to love and be loved.

1 John 4:16 says, “God is love, and he that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him.” Like the law of gravity, there are just basic needs the system has to function properly. And for the body to adapt gracefully to hormonal transitions, these eight laws are fantastic So they’re basically sunlight, rest, which was day one, air and water, nutrition, exercise, temperance, and trust in God, connection, relationships, all those.

Just incorporating those is going to help regulate the stress hormones, inflammation, metabolism, nervous system function. The goal isn’t to fight your hormones, it’s to build a body and nervous system that can adapt to change. That’s the biggest. Simple things, but going back to how were we created.

Carrie: Yeah, and as far as the stress happening, I know a lot of women struggle with maybe weight gain or struggle with not being able to lose weight at different points.

Can you tell us a little bit about that connection to hormones?

Celisha: That weight gain usually is just because of that change in hormones that’s happening, so as estrogen drops, we actually get more blood sugar instability, and when blood sugar drops, we create a response of stress. Cortisol increases, adrenaline increases, and what does that do?

It tells us that we are hungry and we want carbs, and the insulin sensitivity gets worse. If we can focus on eating protein, fiber, healthy fat at every meal, but especially at that first meal of the day, whenever that is, and then once we start eating, making sure we’re eating at predictable times, ’cause the nervous system is observing that, and it can start producing those stomach contents to protect the stomach, to start digestion.

The liver, the pancreas, all those w- can start their process, and if it can predict it, our nervous system is gonna be much more stable. So I encourage women to prioritize definitely a variety of colorful vegetables which are rich in vitamins and minerals, especially magnesium, vitamin B6, having protein at every meal, but especially plant-based proteins.

Why? Because they’re alkaline. They promote an alkaline pH. And then healthy fats, because we need those fats to make our hormones. That’s the base. All of our hormones come from cholesterol.

Carrie: So don’t be afraid of fat. It just has to be healthy fat.

Celisha: Exactly, not inflammatory fats, ’cause inflammation does also become worse with the decreasing or erratic estrogens.

It will actually stimulate things to kick off like autoimmune disease or inflammatory processes, so that’ll be happening as well. But let’s talk about some, a couple things we can do to specifically support estrogen and progesterone. Our cycle starts day one as the start of a period, right? Your start of a bleeding.

And that phase is where you really wanna support estrogen balance. It’s the heavy estrogen time of our cycle. So from that day one to ovulation. And a couple things you can add diet-wise is flaxseed and pumpkin seeds. There’s also things in nature that God gave us that are considered phytoestrogens. So what is that?

Acts like an estrogen in a weaker way, attaching to those receptors in our body. And a few of those are red clover, hops, non-genetically modified soy, and alfalfa, stimulating, promoting the healthy estrogens, and then detoxing of those xenoestrogens. Xenoestrogens are toxins that also bind to those estrogen receptors, and then they make you feel like you are in excess of that estrogen stimulation, and therefore, even further imbalance into the progesterone balance.

What you can do to detox would be sour, bitter foods in nature. So that’s like lemon, lime, grapefruit, dandelion, artichokes, bitter endives, lots of leafy greens. And then going to the second half of the cycle, you wanna promote more of the progesterone. So that’s from ovulation to when you’re gonna start your period again.

You can add things like sunflower seeds and sesame seeds, evening primrose oil, borage oil. Some of the herbs that are phyto progesterones that attach to those receptors on the progesterone receptors are vitex and wild yam Usually the body likes more sweeter type, starchier vegetables during that time, so like sweet potatoes, squash, berries, those are good things.

You don’t wanna overly restrict your calories during that half of the cycle ’cause you will blunt progesterone, and you’re already dealing with that decreasing progesterone during perimenopause.

Carrie: Yeah. So instead of just definitely don’t wanna do any, like, starvation-type stuff on your body, but balancing out the protein and the healthy fat is gonna help you be fuller.

And of course, the vegetables, things of that nature, are already lower in calories is a good way to balance things out, you feel like?

Celisha: Yes, most definitely. And then avoiding things that are inflammatory like alcohol and caffeine, processed foods. That’s gonna increase inflammation and pull more of our resources, our anti-inflammatory resources, from what our body would prefer to make progesterone and the calming-type hormones.

Carrie: Yeah. I think people can get in this really bad cycle with caffeine and sleep, or it’s like they’re using a lot of caffeine during the day, and then they can’t sleep at night, and it’s like, “Well, I didn’t sleep, and so I… Now I need caffeine,” and trying to get that rhythm back can be really challenging for people.

There’s a lot of chatter, of course, about supplements on the Internet and social media. Why do you feel like diet and lifestyle is more of a primary solution than supplements?

Celisha: Yeah. Supplements are great when they’re needed, but they should never be expected to do the work of lifestyle The body runs on inputs.

It responds to what we give it or we expose to it. So food becomes hormones, it becomes neurotransmitters. Sleep regulates cortisol, sunlight regulates circadian rhythms. If someone is sleeping five hours a night, skipping meals, relying on caffeine, living under chronic stress, there’s not a supplement powerful enough to consistently overcome those factors.

Carrie: Yeah. And this is something that I see a lot, where once you kind of peel back some of these layers and you find out maybe, like, how much caffeine someone is intaking, or you find out that they’re not eating at regular intervals, like you said, they’re not eating all day and then they’re eating at 2:00, or they’re eating at 5:00 is, like, when they’re having their main meal of the day, I’m like, “Of course you don’t feel good.

Of course your mental health is really struggling,” because kind of I would say on the mental health piece too, if your physical health isn’t at least somewhat regulated, we’re not gonna be able to make massive changes to your mental health through therapy. And I think that’s why it’s so important for people to have just some, like, baseline physical health stuff going on.

I know we have a lot of people out there that I meet in the Christian community specifically that don’t want to be on medication for OCD, and I always say, like, “Okay, well, if you’re not gonna be on OCD medication, like this is my opinion, you’ve got to exercise. That is not optional because that is so healthy and so important for your brain.

You can’t just not do anything. Like that’s not gonna be good.”

Celisha: It’s so hard to separate ’cause we think, “Okay” exercise is only for our muscles, but in reality, it works just like all the other hormone systems together. They all interact with one another, so you need the whole picture. Just like each of our body parts are necessary, each of our pieces in our body are important for balance and for us to have that spiritual, mental, physical health.

Carrie: Yeah. In the modern age, we’re not getting the level of movement that humans used to get in days past. We were more agrarian, and farming, and out in the fields, and milking cows, and I mean, there’s certain movements that are having to happen to make all of those things work. I think about my grandparents and the kind of movement that they got, very different than today’s desk job situations.

Being able to even recognize that God created our bodies to move, I really do believe that, and figuring out how we can add little movement breaks in throughout the day is helpful, on your lunch break, using the stairs, those types of things. So I’m sure there are women listening maybe who say, “I feel like my hormones are involved in what I’m experiencing mentally and emotionally,” and I think sometimes whenever people feel like there’s some type of mental health diagnosis on their record and that it’s always excused as mental health, and maybe some of the physical health hasn’t been dug into, but if there’s women listening who feel like, hey, their doctors dismiss them, or they’ve said, “Yeah, all your labs are normal, everything’s fine, you’re in normal range,” but they still feel off, they’re like, “Something’s not right here,” what can they do?

Celisha: So this is very common. I hear, “All my labs are normal,” but a normal lab result does not necessarily mean it’s optimal.

Carrie: That’s good.

Celisha: Labs are good for ruling out disease, but it doesn’t explain why people feel exhausted, anxious, overwhelmed. I look at labs from a functional point of view, and that can give me a clue as to what systems are stressed, but I also encourage women to listen to their symptoms.

They are not crazy. What they are feeling is important. Many women, especially during this change in hormones, they’re functioning at a constant state of low-grade stress activation. So even though their labs are normal, they’re dealing with poor sleep, and so that’s upsetting their nervous system, that elevated stress, that blood sugar instability, perhaps some unresolved trauma and inflammation just by way of that declining hormones.

All of those affect the nervous system, and what we learn is that the nervous system has two settings, so an alerting pathway, which keeps us awake, motivated, able to start and finish tasks, and then calming pathways, which helps us feel safe. So when we are consistently cultivating sleep, sunlight, healthy relationships, movement, gratitude, prayer, rest, we’re gonna strengthen the body’s ability to return to that state of safety.

And that’s what’s most important. Healing often begins when we stop asking, “What’s wrong with me?” And we actually start asking, “What is the body trying to tell me?” We wanna look at how we can best cooperate with the vessel that the Lord gave us to steward. 1 Thessalonians 4:4 says that, “Every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor.”

And then in 9, 4:9, “For ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.” And we know that we were created to love and be loved.

Carrie: That’s really good. I like that. I think that this is a valuable conversation for so many reasons. I hope that people kind of picked up on, like, a little nugget here and there.

What I’ll say from the mental health side too is I think that people underestimate what chronic stress does to your body, and they may hear you use a word like trauma, and they may be like, “Yeah, I haven’t really been through anything traumatic.” But when you look at what they’re dealing with on a day-to-day basis, like we talked about before, caring for a child with special needs, caring for a loved one with a disability, caring for multiple children over the course of your lifespan and trying to maybe dealing with some stressful situations that your teenagers have encountered where you didn’t know if they were being safe or not in various situations.

That can add up and cause a, an effect on your body that can put you in a state of hypervigilance, of the fight, flight, or freeze. Or maybe you had something that you thought was buried that happened a long time ago, and it didn’t get awoken until maybe your kid got to a certain age where you experienced the trauma.

That can also happen. So if you had a traumatic experience at 16, for example, you were trucking along, everything was okay, you felt like it was buried and done with. Your daughter turns 16, all of a sudden you’re re-triggered all over again. You’re afraid bad things are gonna happen to her, whatever that situation is.

Um, just for people to kind of be aware, ’cause I think sometimes people don’t even recognize or they’re not in awareness of how much stress they’re under or that their body has experienced. Are those some things that you’ve encountered, people that just have chronic stress that’s not even on their radar that they have chronic stress?

Celisha: Stress is quite common, and that also impacts the hormones. So you’ll see that with higher stress, you’re gonna have a weaker ovulation. Compound that on top of perimenopause, and then it will affect your lifestyle, it’ll affect your sleep, it will affect how your adrenals are producing the cortisol and those, that adrenaline.

Carrie: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your wisdom today. I know that people are gonna learn new things and just appreciate what you’ve been able to share.

A couple follow-up thoughts on this episode. I feel like the older I get, the slightly more crunchier I get. So I find these types of topics really fascinating to me.

I have been reading The Menopause Reset by Dr. Mindy Pelz. There’s so many things in that book, and so I’m really just trying to focus on a couple small key changes that I’m making in my life to handle my 40s in a slightly healthier way. They definitely have been hitting me kind of hard the last six months.

So if you’re there in this stage of life, I definitely feel you. We’re gonna make it. For our next couple episodes, we’re switching topics over into some spiritual discernment. Next week we’re gonna be talking about, is God asking me to give this up? Where I’m gonna be sharing with you something that I gave up recently, what I learned from that experience, and then I’m applying that over to what OCD usually asks of people in regards to giving things up.

And then we have a special guest coming to talk about discerning God’s call in a new season and just her personal testimony. I think you guys are gonna get a lot out of these episodes.

Celisha: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the

Carrie: Well Counseling.

Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.