Last week, I posted a blog Is Anxiety a Sin? Today, I want to talk a little bit about how we address what appears on the surface to be a command from scripture about not being anxious. Phil 4:6 “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God” (Phil 4:6).
Are you looking for simple ways to relax and calm down? Often people use things like taking a bath to relax. That’s great, but you don’t always have that much time. Here are some go to strategies that you can use no matter where you are. No extra items or props needed!
Welcome to Hope for Anxiety And OCD Episode 12. We are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others.
I am so glad that you are listening today. We’re going to be talking about 10 ways to have a calmer mind and body in five minutes or less. Yes, this is possible. Sometimes people feel like they need a long time in order to calm down like I need to go take an hour bubble bath. That’s awesome. Sometimes you’re able to do things like that, but sometimes you have five minutes before you walk into your dentist appointment and you’re super nervous about your tooth extraction.
You don’t always have a lot of time to relax. So I want to teach you some quick, relatively easy-to-implement ideas also that you can do anywhere.
You don’t need any special equipment for these. I also know that these exercises work. They’ve been tested, they’re tried, and true. I use them with clients on a regular basis. What I will say is that all of these may not resonate with you, and that’s totally okay. If you can find one or two that you really resonate with and feel confident in being able to utilize, practice those. The more that you’re able to utilize these strategies when you don’t need them the more likely you’re able to have that in mind or online when you actually do need them. You’re going to want to connect with these exercises in a whole-body experience type of way. What I mean by that is mentally, emotionally, and physically.
Too many times, we just try to change how we think about something. We do this in the church all the time and it drives me a little bit batty because people are like, “okay, well you believe God doesn’t love you.” I mean, the scripture says he does. So just change that in your brain and move forward. It’s a lot more complicated than that. We’re not just one-dimensional. If we just try to change our thinking, we haven’t tapped into the other God-given aspects of our self. Occasionally one of these activities may take you to a negative place. So if for any reason it does, just tap out and use a different one.
The 10 ways to have a calmer mind and body in five minutes or less.
Number one. Acknowledging the presence of God or Jesus.
This may or may not be helpful for you depending on your view of God right now, and how you feel about him, or you may be experiencing obsessions that get in the way with this activity.
Oftentimes, if people have a hard time connecting to God, they can connect to Jesus. I believe the reason for this is because we know that Jesus experienced the same struggles on earth in relationships that we experience, things like rejection, betrayal, temptation.
He had all access and authority in the spiritual realm. At the same time, He fully understood what it was like to be human. We know from a logical place that God is always with us in Matthew 28, 20 Jesus said, “And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age.” What does that mean for you right now? As you’re getting ready in the morning, driving to work, or sitting in the pickup line at your kid’s school.
What does it feel like to notice that you’re not alone and that God, Jesus is with you? Right now, is there a positive feeling or a physical sensation that you would connect with that? Just sit with that and notice that for a moment.
Number two. Gratitude. What are you thankful for today? I want you to stay away from generics. Don’t just say I’m thankful for my spouse or I’m thankful for my parents or my kids. See if you can make that specific.
So today I’m thankful that my spouse jumps in and helps around the house as needed. You might say I’m thankful that I get to watch my kids excel in a particular area like music or sports.
What is something that you’re thankful for that happened today?
Maybe you’d say I’m thankful that I didn’t get stuck in traffic when I had to make a long drive or I’m thankful that I got to have a conversation with a good friend.
Developing a regular gratitude practice will change your life even if you take a few minutes a day to jot on a calendar something very specific that you’re thankful for that day. I did this during a very sad and dark period of my life, and it really helped me get a different perspective.
Number three. Spending time with an animal or if you can’t do that, at least thinking about them. Of course, if you have an animal at home, you can interact with them.
I talk to my cats all the time, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
If you don’t have animals, you can watch baby animal videos on YouTube or funny animal videos, and that can get you in a different headspace as well.
I’ve found that even when clients don’t have an animal in session, they can bring up how their animal makes them feel. So think about what it’s like when your dog is right next to you.
What does it feel to stroke his fur? What kind of funny things does your dog do that really make you laugh? And as you think about your dog, how do you feel, and how does that make your body feel?
Number four. Connect with your breath. This may cause some distress if you have a hard time tuning in internally to yourself. Just start by noticing your breath without feeling any pressure to change it. After a little bit of time, see if you can make a shift in how you’re breathing. Maybe breathing out a little bit longer on your exhales, kind of slowly releasing the air. Trying to breathe from your diaphragm and not your chest.
Some people find it helps them to count every inhale or exhale so they have something to focus their mind on while they’re breathing.
Number five. Sing a song. Notice I said, sing a song, not passively put music on in the background.
As we learned from Tim Ringgold in episode 6, he talked about using music to help manage anxiety.
It’s better if you engage with the music in some way, such as singing along, tapping to the beat, or even singing in your head works as well. So if you’re in a crowd, you could just sing the lyrics in your head instead of out loud. This brings you into the present moment as you’re focusing and engaging with that music.
Find a favorite song that puts you in a good mood every time that you listen to it.
Number six. Think about the most loving and supportive person in your life.
You want to pick someone that you’re not in conflict with currently. Think about something they’ve done recently to show you that they loved you.
How do they make you feel when you’re around them? What is it like to be in their presence?
Just see if you can receive some love from them as you bring them to mind.
Number seven. Think about the absolute worst-case scenario.
I know this sounds counterintuitive because you may think that you think about the worst-case scenario all the time. But now I want you to play it all the way out to the end.
Let me give you an example. I’ve had several people be concerned about losing their job. So I will say something like, “okay, so if you lose your job, then what?” “Well, then I’d be unemployed.” “Okay. And then what? “Well, I’d have to go out and send out a lot of resumes and look for another job.” “And what if I don’t get a job right away?” “I might not be able to pay my bills.”
“Okay. And what would happen if you couldn’t pay your bills?” “Well, I would end up moving in with my mother who I have a hard time getting along with.”
“And then what?” “Well, mom would just drive me absolutely insane, and I couldn’t live with her anymore. And I don’t know. I might end up on the streets.”
As that scenario gets played out, either one of two things will happen. Either it will start to sound really ridiculous, like something that may have a very low likelihood of happening, or you may get to the end and say, “well, if that did happen, it’s pretty rough. I wouldn’t like it at all, but I think I could make it. I could manage it and get through.”
Number eight. Find the calmest part of your body.
Usually, when I ask people to do this, they look at me really strangely because people aren’t used to finding the calmest part of their body. They’re used to finding the most distressed part of their body. So it may take you a little bit longer to figure out where that is, but it’s a good exercise for your brain.
The calmest part of your body does not have to be a large area. It can be as small as your pinky toe. As you start to focus on that calm area, sometimes it will reduce the distress in the other areas of your body that don’t feel as calm.
Number nine. Connect with the present moment. Oftentimes the present moment is not actually where the distress is. Distress with anxiety often comes from an imagined future outcome that’s negative. Therefore, when you’re anxious, you may be living in the future.
When you bring yourself back to what’s actually happening right now, you’re typically okay.
Let me give you an example, going back to the job example, let’s say that you’re anxious because you have a meeting with your boss in two days, and you are absolutely convinced that this meeting is where your boss is going to tell you that you’re being reprimanded or that you’re going to be fired. When you bring yourself back to the present moment, you notice that you’re sitting in your living room with your cat and everything is actually okay.
Oftentimes, living in the future creates anxiety whereas living in the past creates shame or sadness, or other uncomfortable emotions. By learning to be in the present, this can reduce your overall distress.
You may also look at “what do I know” and now you know that you’re employed now. You know that you’re doing the best that you can at your job. You know that God is going to take care of you and provide for your needs. You know that if you did get fired, it may take you a little while, but you’re going to eventually be able to get another job.
You can only control your behavior in this present moment. You can’t go back and change anything you did in the past, and you can’t control the future.
You can’t control other people’s behavior or what they’re going to do. Sometimes acknowledging that in itself can bring a certain level of relief.
Number 10. Find your happy place.
This can be a place that you go to all the time or can be a place that you enjoyed on vacation. The place itself doesn’t really matter as long as you can connect positive sensory experiences to it.
I’m going to tell you about my happy place and describe it based on my senses as I experience it. My happy place is a park that’s in Nashville. There are beautiful trees along this wooded area. There’s a beautiful lake trail. You can go out on a pier and see the lake. It’s very quiet and peaceful out there. You may see birds flying. It smells like trees, grass, fresh air. There’s a cool breeze coming off the Lake and I think about walking with Steve there. Just enjoying his company.
When you get really good at going to this place in your mind and bringing up the positive body sensations that you have associated with it, you can actually attach what we would call a cue word to it. This word is going to help prompt you to think of this place. The cue word could be anything associated with that place or how it makes you feel. I may decide that because the park causes me to feel peaceful when I’m there, then the word I’m associating with it is peace.
I hope that you’ve found the 10 ways to have a calmer mind and body in five minutes or less helpful to you.
I wanted to give you a secret on how you can get number 11. If you go to hopeforanxietyandocd.com and subscribe to our newsletter, I try to send out about one email a week, so it will not bombard you. I have a free relaxation audio that you can connect with. It’s another activity that I’ve used with clients that they’ve really enjoyed. I’ve even had people tell me that this relaxation activity helps them calm down when they started to experience a panic attack. You can also find other free and paid resources on our website to help you with anxiety and OCD.
I want to tell you about some of our future episodes that I am so excited about. We are going to be talking with a marriage and family therapist about how to help your anxious spouse.
I’m also going to be interviewing an author who’s a Christian to talk with her about her book on mindfulness. I have another solo episode which talks about how to find a therapist who is the right fit for you.
I hope that you will hang in there with us and tune in for these episodes. Thank you so much for listening.
Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of well counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.
Until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.
How do you know if your childhood is negatively affecting your adulthood? You don’t want to be a victim to what happened to you as a child and blame everything on your parents, but you still feel that childhood experiences may be holding you back. If you have worked hard to avoid thinking about the difficult things that have happened to you, you may believe you have put the past behind you. After all, you made it through the past fires and they aren’t burning anymore. You’ve moved out of mom’s house. However, things still aren’t going the way you hoped they would. Here are four indicators that your childhood may be affecting your adulthood.
The good news is there is hope.
If you believe that your childhood is affecting your adulthood, therapy can help. Learning new ways of coping, relating to others, and processing trauma can get you to a place where the past is truly in the past. When you are no longer haunted by the experiences in your childhood, you can progress forward into a more healthy adulthood.
Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP of By The Well Counseling is a Licensed Professional Counselor who specializes in helping clients with trauma, anxiety and OCD get to a deeper level of healing through EMDR via online counseling across Tennessee and in person intensive therapy sessions. Carrie is the host of the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast, which is a welcome place for struggling Christians to reduce shame, increase hope, and develop healthier connections with God and others.
I work with a lot of people who experience anxiety, and some have sought help from well meaning, but misguided church leaders who told them they haven’t prayed enough, read their Bible enough, or trusted God enough. In some cases, my clients have been told that their anxiety is a sin. After all, the Bible does say, “Do not be anxious about anything.” (Phil 4:6).
Anxiety may be defined differently by different people. Anxiety could be described as a thought process of worry or as the physical symptoms of sweating, heart racing, and shortness of breath. According to Dictionary.com, anxiety is, “a feeling of worry, nervousness, or unease.” Anxiety is a feeling. Are feelings sin?
The short answer is no. Many biblical “heroes” were anxious or afraid: Gideon when he tore down his father’s altars, Elijah when he fled from Jezebel, and Moses going before Pharaoh. Jesus himself knew about anxiety before he went to the cross. He was in such anguish that he sweat drops of blood (hematohidrosis if you’d like to google). In my years of working with anxious people, I’ve never met anyone who has experienced that level of physical anxiety.
Even if you’re not sweating blood, you may have some intense physical experiences when you’re anxious. Your brain and nervous system are hardwired to keep you safe and alive. That’s very helpful when faced with true danger, but the problem is that sometimes the danger signal in the brain can be prone to misfire. This is especially true in the case of those who have experienced trauma. If you have experienced trauma or are dealing with a lot of anxiety, there are trained professionals who would love to help you. In my experience, EMDR is a great treatment option for people experiencing anxiety because of the physical release that can be obtained.
So, the feeling of anxiety is not a sin, but how you handle it may or may not be. Avoidance of doing what God calls you to do because you are afraid is sin. I’ve been anxious about many things that God has called me to do such as speaking in front of people, traveling across the world on a mission trip, and starting my business. Starting the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast was very anxiety provoking because at the end of the day, I’m still a little shy about sharing details regarding my life. I’ve been able to feel that fear and continue in action because I have confidence that God has called me to this work.
There have been other times though that my anxiety has gotten in the way of my faith. There have been times where I tried to convince God there was already someone else out there who is either already doing it better or would be much more qualified for the task. There have been several occasions where I have kept quiet for fear of misunderstanding, judgement, or rejection. I have taken the “God language” out of things God has clearly done in my life that He wants me to share with others. That’s not OK.
You may struggle with some of the same things too. I want you to know that if you’ve avoided doing something God has called you to, God’s grace is big enough to cover all of it. You can accept that grace while also challenging yourself towards growth into who God desires for you to be. Take action on what you believe God has spoken to you about doing.
While doing a little searching for this post, I found 81 references in the Bible for, “Do not be afraid.” Why is that in the Bible so many times? Because God knew we were going to be afraid. He knew we were going to wrestle with this emotion and need some reassurance that everything is going to be OK, that He is big enough to handle it, and that He will not leave us in the process. “Do not be afraid” is there to comfort us, not to condemn us when we are afraid.
I’m sure there is much more that can be written about the intersection of anxiety and faith in Christ. Until then, if you have specific questions, I’d love to hear from you in the comments section.
Verses discussed: Ephesians 1, Tim 1:15, James 5:16
Resources and Links:
Midtown Fellowship, Nashville
Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 11. Today’s show is on the incredible power of Christian community and how that can impact mental health in a positive way. I wanted to make a very special dedication of this episode on Christian community to BJ Howard. In the process of putting this recording together, I’ve found out that he passed away.
This was someone that was very connected and involved in church, connected to encouraging and mentoring people that were younger than him. He was someone who was able to give me a lot of hope in my life when I needed it the most to keep going and to keep following the Lord and keep trusting his plan for my life.
Thank you so much BJ for your influence. I hope that in some small way this episode and not just this episode, but this podcast is a way to move forward and can carry the torch of the light and the love that you showed to me, to be able to show that to other people.
I got the opportunity on this episode to interview one of the local pastors in Nashville, Randy Draughon. He is the Pastor of Midtown Fellowship, and we were able to get into some great dialogue about being a Christian and living in the Christian community and what that looks like.
Let’s dive right in.
Carrie: For those that don’t know, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Pastor Randy: I’ve been in Nashville for almost 30 years now, married have three kids. I started Midtown Fellowship around 2001. Our passion then was to go into the heart of the city and to start a church for people that had given up on church.
So we were from a very traditional style church and we shed the skin of all that and started a church and a skate park. Most of the folks that were coming to Midtown were musicians or college students. Back then the city had really not gone through any kind of transformation. This was pre-Titans.
Nobody really lived down there unless they had to, which meant that they couldn’t afford to live anywhere else. Downtown was the cheap place to live.
Carrie: Wow, not anymore.
Pastor Randy: It’s true. We’ve seen a lot of change over the years and we partnered with a ministry called Rocket Town and they built a skate park and a big music venue down in the city.
When we got to a point where we needed a bigger space, they opened their doors and they were incredibly generous to us and we needed that because everybody coming to our church was so poor. None of them had any money. We had a philosophy early on never to take an offering because we were shedding the skin of the idea that when you come to church, the church wants so much from you. We’re operating from the philosophy of we just really believe that God has so much to give to you. So God just took care of us.
Carrie: How in the world, like, did you get paid? You didn’t take up an offering. This is incredible.
Pastor Randy: We just prayed and people just gave. I really can’t tell you that we ever spent much time around the budget, trying to figure out how to make it happen. We just were so busy just doing the work of ministry, meeting with a lot of people. We really had a simple philosophy and that was, we really believe that when God impacts one person, the ripple effect of that to their community and their family actually ripples out into the city.
And so we spend a lot of time trying to keep bongo, Java, and business and Fidos and all the coffee shops. You’ll appreciate this, our first offices were on 12 South because it was the cheapest place to get an office. It was just a rolling crime scene over there and obviously, it’s all changed since then.
Carrie: A lot has changed in Nashville. I’m sure over the years that you’ve been there and in terms of like ministry that has shifted somewhat, the population that you’re ministering to, is it more diverse as Nashville becomes more diverse?
Pastor Randy: You can tell me how much you want to get into this. I’m happy to talk about what we’ve done over the years. Midtown, about the first 18 months, was a slow crawl. We had maybe 10 people coming to church and then it began to build and we started to see the Lord really doing some really cool stuff in people’s lives. When we moved to Rocket Town we literally bought a hundred used folding chairs and we called it the purchase of faith.
We believe that the Lord was going to fill these hundred seats and within a year we had close to a thousand people that were coming to services at Rocket Town, and it was insane. We couldn’t get everybody in. In fact, the stage was full of chairs and the floor, and the balcony.
We really had a dilemma because we realized that the bigger that we were getting the least effective we were at reaching our mission, which was creating a safe place for people that had given up on church, that we were really good at attracting Christians from other churches because we’re a huge artist community. So our bands were killer. Like you can imagine coming to church and looking up in the band area because we wouldn’t put our band on the stage.
We actually moved them off to the side where you couldn’t see them because none of our artists wanted to perform on Sunday morning so it was about the Lord. It wasn’t about them and all of them were professional musicians. So the big dilemma that we had is, do we go to multiple services and see how big we can get this?
I didn’t feel led to do that. So we went to San Diego and we met with a group of people that helped start a Tim Keller’s church up in New York. They were doing something very unique out in California that we brought it back to Nashville. We customized it and then adopted it for ourselves, which was to, instead of going to multiple services, why don’t we take a big chunk of these people and send them back to their slice of Nashville and let them be the church in their community.
Carrie: A lot of churches are doing that now having kind of multi-site campuses.
Pastor Randy: The uniqueness of our model is really based on a couple of ideas. One is then this will interest you as a counselor, is that we really believe that pastors can sometimes be the most dangerous person in the church. They get isolated and isolated men that have power are very dangerous people when they’re isolated emotionally or they’re isolated relationally. There’s some expectation that a whole community of people are putting on them, but they know internally they don’t live up to. That can be a really dangerous scenario for him and If he’s dangerous, then he’s dangerous to the people he’s shepherding too. So we came up with this model of grading campuses. We’re one church, but we have multiple campuses and every campus has its own pastor, but that pastor is in a fellowship with other pastors and we take serious responsibility for one another’s emotional journey, spiritual journey, the whole heart. So we’re kind of a support group for one another.
Carrie: How did you, your church get to that point where you realized we really need to invest in that, not just the spiritual health of our pastors, but the emotional health and the other aspects?
Pastor Randy: Great question about how we got there. The easy answer is I think the Lord just reviewed this so many times through all our failures that he drove us there.
I think maybe the more detailed answer is before coming to Nashville, I’ve worked for some really large churches. I was in youth ministry for 15 years and I got to witness firsthand like national ministries and the men that led them and realized that they were isolated and that the trickle-down effect of that, wasn’t always a pretty story.
When you peek behind the curtain and we began to dream about what would it be like for a pastor to actually open the curtain? And that he ministers out of that place where he’s first in line, as the one who needs grace, He’s kind of the chief repenter and his community that he’s the most vulnerable of anybody.
We realized that the only way that’s going to happen is if we began to mature emotionally and began to mature spiritually at the same time. I’ve seen spiritually mature people that can quote the Bible from the beginning to the end and have these huge prayer lives but they’re not emotionally mature and as a result, a lot of times they’re just hurtful people and they’re not very safe to be around.
Carrie: They don’t know how to have healthy relationships and form healthy connections.
Pastor Randy: Yeah and you know, that’s fair because a lot of times, pastors, men that are called into ministry and women are called into ministry too.
A lot of times they’re intellectuals. They love to study. They love teaching. They love books more than they love people. So a lot of times they’re disconnected from their own heart and therefore they’re disconnected from the people around them because I don’t believe you can be disconnected from yourself and actually connected with other people. I also believe it hinders your connection with the Lord. But if you’re not self-aware enough to know how you need the Lord and where you’re at, I think it’s very difficult to have a meaningful, profound relationship with him.
Carrie: Right. I was thinking about that versus you were talking how
Paul was a big spiritual hero in a lot of ways, but he said himself, like, “I’m the chief of sinners” and such a puzzling verse because you’re like, how can you be the chief of sinners? But he just had that understanding and that awareness of like, “I need all of the grace too.”
I think that’s really cool what you’re talking about to this overlay of like where Christians meant to live in community and so that’s not healthy with pastors being isolated. Also this sense of our relationships with other people and those connections, a lot of times maybe mirroring our connections with God. Would you agree with that?
Pastor Randy: Yeah. Say that again and say it a little differently.
Carrie: Okay. I think that a lot of times we place on God like our ability to connect with him. We place on him things that we’ve received from other relationships in our life, often parents, fathers. And so if our fathers were disconnected or neglectful, then we receive this sense from God that we feel like God’s just kind of distant.
He’s not really there. Sometimes being able to connect healthily with people can help us heal some of that, like Christians. I don’t know the God in you maybe healing that piece of being able to love someone in Christ may help them connect more with God. I don’t know if that’s making sense.
Pastor Randy: That’s so good and you’re really the expert here. I’m just dabbling in your world when I talk about counseling here. We all have trauma in our lives and some of us have pretty severe trauma and it’s trauma that’s either been produced through parents or through relatives. Some of us have trauma that we produced ourselves and that trauma often I’ve seen, it digs these trenches in our lives that it seems like whenever we enter into any situation that triggers that trauma, which could be relational, we tend to go back to that ditch. So if our father was harsh with us, the only way we ever experienced God is as a harsh God. That’s why one of my mentors always tells me if something is hysterical, it’s probably historical that if we don’t understand ourselves enough to know that we have that trauma, then we’re not aware enough to know that I need healing in that trauma so that I can rewrite the script in a fresh healed way. Maybe it’s more than a healed way. Maybe it’s a healthy way.
Carrie: What was that journey for you of your journey of self-evaluation?
Pastor Randy: Well, for me personally, I’ve always sought out older men that would invest themselves in me. I’ve been fortunate I’ve had some amazing men that have the gift of listening and they also have the gift of wisdom. So they let me talk myself out and then they speak wisdom into those places. And if it’s true that our thoughts are really a bad neighborhood and we should never go there by ourselves then the men in my life have gone there with me. They’ve helped me fight the shame stories and we all have shame stories. But probably the most, I would say maybe one of the most impacted things was about six years ago. Our oldest son at 25 died unexpectedly. That story of grief for me and my wife and our family was so traumatic for me that it caused me to start to question everything. In fact, to get a little vulnerable here, I couldn’t let go of the thought that it was my fault and I felt deeply responsible for that. And as I began to unpack, why is that? I began to realize there were a lot of my own issues of codependency that I have not dealt with growing up. I grew up in a home where addiction was a part of our home. And so I just jumped into a whole community of people that had shared experiences like that and began to unpack my own lenses that I’ve put on to how I process my life and how I’ve processed the Lord and how I process other people. So it’s been an amazing journey over the last six years of embracing the joy of grief and the healing power of community and the Lord.
Carrie: I think a lot of times it’s the tragedy points that brings us closer to God and closer to other people, but it can really challenge your theology in the best way and wonder if that happened for you.
Pastor Randy: I think that pain is so misunderstood because I think that many of us live and I don’t want to, maybe I should use an “I” statement here. I lived thinking that if something is painful that means something is wrong, that we didn’t get something right because the right life is not a painful life, but the reality of every relationship is there’s pain. And that’s a part of relational health is realizing that if you’re going to love somebody you’re going to hurt and if you’re going to let somebody love you, it’s going to hurt. That pain is a part of the relationship.
It took a real season to realize that pain doesn’t have the ability to change what is true, but pain does have the ability to change what I believe is true. For me to bring my pain to my community and for me to bring the pain narrative to my community and whether that was through counselors or whether that was through just mentors or friends or people that were fighting for me, letting them fight for me so that my narrative of truth [00:16:12] can come alongside my pain and really call it good, which may sound strange to people that are in pain, that your pain is good, but it can be because the Lord uses that to bring healing in her life.
Carrie: Just as a connecting point to him and to other people.
Pastor Randy: And I mean, that’s what I’m saying, I’m swimming in your waters right now. You’re the pro in this area, but I’m just sharing my own personal experiences. Not necessarily an ocean of therapeutic knowledge.
Carrie: I think it’s really great though, to hear these kinds of messages from pastors, because depending on people’s backgrounds, they may not have had a pastor that has ever been this vulnerable about difficult things in their life like you were talking about the isolation. Maybe there’s the sense that I have to present as the most spiritual person in the room and therefore, somehow that means I present with no problems or no pain. Anyway, I have the Lord. The Lord is good, nothing wrong here.
Pastor Randy: You think about it that if the only time I can preach is when I’ve mastered what I’m preaching and I want to preach with vulnerability. I really don’t have any sermons because who can do that unless you put up a facade and you’re a counselor. What happens when people put on mask and they spend their lives to manage an image and they manage this facade so they can keep their jobs, which is their income.
They can keep people’s respect, which is, they believe my reputation is that if everybody was like me, then we would all be so much like Jesus. It takes a lot of energy and effort to do that so what would it be like for the joy of preaching from a place of, “Hey, I really need this more than any of you need it.”
I’m preaching from a place where I feasted on the Lord this week and I’m just sharing with you what he served up for me. If you have a community that would allow you to do that it’s a beautiful place to be.
Carrie: I love that. I think there’s something really about authenticity that’s attractive to people [00:18:25] and unfortunately, the church has gotten a bad rap for being fake. A lot of times, or Christians have gotten a bad rap for being hypocritical.
Pastor Randy: Because we are, but some of it’s a good rap.
Carrie: Some of it’s true. I used to become frustrated when people would talk about Christians becoming hypocritical and then I realized that Jesus was most frustrated with religious people in the Bible. And so I was like, “Oh, it bothered Jesus too.” There’s a relate-ability there. So if you’re frustrated with the church or people who appear religious, then you know, Jesus understands that.
Pastor Randy: Right and so true. I think that there’s such a gravitational pull to unhealthiness. I mean, you’re a counselor. There are a lot of people that don’t come to see you, people that their whole world of dysfunction and they live in it until they go to their grave.
There’s a huge pull to having a world that you completely control and that it’s not dangerous and you’ve minimized pain by medicating or avoidance or distraction. I think that that pull is so attractive when you realize that vulnerability and openness and willing to admit that your imperfect is so scary.
I love what Bernay Brown talks about is that courage is the ability to let yourself be seen and it really is true. That takes a lot of courage to let your true heart live itself on the outside.
I don’t think that any of us can do that by ourselves. Maybe some can, but I think it takes a community of people that are jumping into that water with us to give us the courage to keep jumping into it.
Carrie: I’ve been processing this verse in James that talks about how you confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you will be healed. I just find that so powerful because we’re told Jesus is our high priest. So he’s the one that has to absolve us, so to speak of our sin, who we go to for forgiveness. But yet we’re told to confess to other people for this level of healing. That I believe is emotional of just saying, “look, I’m struggling and I need your support and love and prayers.”
Pastor Randy: I’ve never been involved in AA, alcoholics anonymous. I have been involved with adult children of alcoholics ACA, and there’s a fundamental belief in those communities is that when I get vulnerable, when I speak out loud, what I have on the inside of me, there’s something that gets healed in me when I’m sharing that in a community that’s accepting me and go on me too. When I get vulnerable and also I believe it heals something in you, it’s a gift that we give to one another that knits us, not just together, but gives us strength and courage to live our hearts on the outside.
Carrie: Right. Do you believe that kind of going back to isolation? So for people who don’t have these communities, maybe where they feel like they can be safe and vulnerable and open up, whether that’s a church, small group or support group, or something of that nature. Do you feel like that isolation just kind of continues to feed the dysfunction you were talking about?
Pastor Randy: It’s strange that the things that we begin to accept in our lives and even the routines that we began to allow to exist in our lives. And I think that for a lot of people that experience things like we’ve talked about pain, but also like loneliness that they receive loneliness as a curse rather than the emotion of loneliness is actually a blessing and understanding what that blessing, that inviting emotion is actually inviting you to.
They use that loneliness as a means by which they stir in shame into their story and then stepped back from community because they don’t feel like they’re worthy of community and then when you pour resentment on top of that shame and that loneliness, it leads to a real isolated place. But if we understand that loneliness is a gift from the Lord it’s a part of our hearts that’s crying out for, longing and for community and whether I’m lonely for myself or I’m longing a friend or for Jesus. It’s inviting me to something and that’s why we need community because that takes a lot of courage and loneliness to call somebody and go, “I need you, could we go out to dinner or can we go grab coffee?” or “Would you consider meeting with me once every Wednesday morning and let us just encourage each other.” That takes a lot of courage because that person may say “no”.
I think it’s, sometimes it feels easier just to isolate and medicate which is a tragedy. It’s really why we do what we do with our pastors because in ministry, who do you call and say, “I need you” when you’re the pastor of a church, you’re the person everybody calls for, you’re the need meeter. You’re the one that helps everybody else out and the tragedy of that is, imagine a pastor who is very healthy in his need for his community.
I’m not talking about being over needy in the sense of inappropriate but really needing the strength of the community to be spiritually healthy.
Carrie: Don’t most pastors have connections to other pastors though? I’m just thinking about this from the therapeutic lens. If I have a really difficult day or really hard session, I could name for you three or four people that I could call and in a confidential manner and say, “this is what happened to me today” or “this was a really hard session I’m having a hard time dealing with it personally.”
Do you feel like most pastors have that? Or some do and some don’t.
Pastor Randy: My experience is that most pastors don’t have that. My experience is that most pastors would say that they have friends who are pastors, but that their relationship with them is not on the level that you just described, where I can call that guy if I have to four times a week and connect with them, or even once a week. I think I don’t have them in front of me, but you can google search stats on how pastors are doing and it’s not a pretty picture.
Carrie: Just in terms of a lot of people dropping out of ministry or moral failings.
Pastor Randy: Yeah and even surveys about, do men feel fulfilled in their calling? Would they continue to do with what they’re doing if they could get another job?
It’s just ministry doesn’t have to be this miserable place of isolation. It’s miserable in the sense that you’re suffering as you’re caring for sheep, which is a hard, hard job. But you can do it in such a way that if you’re self-aware enough to take care of yourself so that you’re healthy and taking care of other people.
Carrie: That’s really huge. Being able to make sure that your needs are getting met and as Christians, yes, that’s from the Lord, but it’s also from Christian community. I don’t think we can just say, “I go to Jesus and he fills me up.” That’s great but our faith is so communal that we need that interaction and we need the accountability and the people to call out our blind spots, the things that we’re not seeing.
Pastor Randy: Yeah, we were born into a family. I love worship music, but I always chuckle when I hear songs that “All I need is Jesus” and as a pastor, I’m like, “Okay, that’s good” but that’s not what Jesus says. Even God in the garden said to Adam, it’s not good that you’re alone. Adam had God, he’s walking in the garden with God and God said, yeah, you need community. So we’re gonna create community right here. So I need people in my life and it’s how I often see Jesus is the community that God puts around me or the community I help build around me. And that’s the thing I see a lot is that people say, “Man, where do I go and find that community?” You probably aren’t going to go out and find that community, but you can start by you building that community, by finding one other person that you practice vulnerability with and then see who God adds to your number because I don’t think that there’s a whole community of people somewhere out there that are just waiting for us to join them. I think the Lord invites us to go and build that.
Carrie: It’s hard because we live in such an individualistic society or we’re taught possibly from a young age to be very independent and to not have needs and to make sure that we take care of our own business or don’t talk about things outside of the family a lot of times. So it can be a challenge to start engaging in that process. But like you said, if it’s just one person, if you find one safe person that you can be vulnerable with and start to develop that community, I think it will be attractive to the people that need it.
Pastor Randy: How do you help your clients do that?
Carrie: It’s tough. It really is tough. I think it depends on what their background is, faith-wise. Some of my clients, they don’t feel like they can go to people in their church and say, “Hey, I’m struggling with anxiety” or, “Hey, I have OCD.” That would be absolutely terrifying to them because unfortunately, church does not feel like a safe place, or they may have received different messages in the past like the Bible says, be anxious for nothing and you need to go pray about it some more. So there’s all kinds of different Christian communities and their responses to mental health obviously.
It’s so therapeutic for me that we’re having this conversation because I know for me personally, even pastors that I’ve dealt with in the past, I don’t think I could have had this kind of conversation with them.
And it’s always been very passionate for me to figure out how I can support the church as a mental health worker. Sometimes it’s received, sometimes it’s kind of like, “yeah, we want you here in this space” and other times it’s not received very well. So that’s been just an interesting personal journey amongst working with pastors. [00:29:14]
But now I’m in a very supportive place where my pastor is very open about mental health issues, and we’re able to talk about those things and how can I support the church and what does that look like. I’m in a good space with that now. Not all churches are open to counseling or those types of things, or it’s very taboo like “what’s really going on there? Is that really Christian? Is that Godly?”
I interviewed a woman and asked her about her experience in terms of mental health in the church. She literally said that pastors have their heads in the sand, like an ostrich. I was shocked by that but I was glad that she was honest and she just said, “that’s been my experience”. And I said, “Why do you think that is? And she said, “Well, because they would have to look at themselves first.” She said because we all at some level have some anxiety or some depression, or like you talked about trauma childhood wounds that maybe haven’t been healed yet and if we don’t do that internal process, how are we going to be able to support someone else that’s on that journey?
Pastor Randy: Yeah. That’s why when I was growing up, I went to a very traditional Southern church I grew up believing that joy was the bully of all the other emotions. That if you’re in pain, “Hey, just rejoice.” This is the day the Lord has made rejoice and be glad. It said joy comes in and beats up everywhere, whether it’s sadness or grief. You’re not a “good Christian” if you’re not rejoicing all the time and just happy, happy, happy, happy.
We get stuck with these crazy messages that mess with our heads which keeps us from navigating our hearts and so my experience, and even here at Midtown, we really celebrate the gift of counseling.
We really believe it’s a gift that the Lord has given to our community to help our people really do an internal journey because a lot of us need master navigators like you to guide us through this jungle called our heart and help us to put language to some of the things that we’re experiencing that our family never taught us how to talk about.
The gap that I often see that makes me sad is the gap between what’s happening in a counseling office to that person’s community. Ideally, I would love just to see a community of people from the church that are journeying with that person as they go to counseling. Out of counseling, that community is supporting them and carrying them, and listening to them. So that counseling with community or helping that person really becomes a full-hearted person. He was really maturing deeply in their life, but often even with very healthy people, what happens in the counseling office stays in the counseling office and what happens in community is often the tip of the iceberg or real surface kind of stuff.
I think that the work has to really be done on our side of this fence that the church needs to realize that AA group that’s meeting in the basement is experiencing vulnerability we need to take that out of the basement and bring it up into the sanctuary, and it’s going to start with the pastor. The only way his community can go on that journey if he’s not gone on that journey is if they go around him and if they go around them, it’s going to hurt him, the church.
Carrie: Wow. That’s so good. I know that I’ve been in group counseling situations and walked away from it and said, “that’s what church is supposed to be like.” This sense of unconditional acceptance for where people are at.
I see you. I see your struggle. I accept you and “Hey, I’m struggling on this journey too” and a lot of times, unfortunately, that isn’t people’s experience in church, but I think that things are shifting and changing. The more that we have these conversations, I hope that this podcast and these types of conversation, I hope it like provokes the church in the best possible way to start looking at this integration of our spiritual life and our mental health and how we can grow together. That those things for many years were believed to be in opposition of each other. “Don’t seek out that secular counseling stuff, that’s not in the Bible” and now we’re realizing that everything that we know about the brain and childhood trauma and all of these things, nothing is against what’s in the Bible in terms of our knowledge of psychology.
When we look at studies about forgiveness, we’re like, “We already knew that as Christians. We already knew that that freed you up” like it’s right there. So it’s just a passion for me to really integrate those two pieces really well.
Pastor Randy: I think It’s really crazy how we as human beings and you probably know more about this than I do, but how we as human beings love to label everything black and white. We love to put things in the categories that we accept and the categories we don’t accept. So there are people that would look at counseling and go, “all counseling is bad and they would give anecdotal stories where Aunt Betsy went crazy after seeing a counselor or whatever. People can say that about the church too. That there are churches that are crazy. They’re just crazy, but that’s not the entire Christian community. So I say that finding a really healthy counselor that really has a good idea of how to guide and care for their people I think is really an essential part of our lives, especially when we’re going through seasons of our lives that we can’t navigate or to understand ourselves even better or joining a support group just to grow emotionally. I would say to people, I would really encourage you to find a group of people in your faith community that can go on that journey with you as well. That it’s a partnership.
I just hate the thought that people go to counseling and they have to leave their faith community when I think that the faith community can actually go with them and support them and care for them and actually grow with them. That’s really a dream of mine.
Carrie: Yeah. I think I have had situations where when people healed from the shame. They were able to go back into their Christian community and talk more openly about their struggles once they were able to work through some of the trauma or the shame pieces, they were able to go back and say, “Hey, these are the things that I struggle with.” And then that opens up other people to say, “Oh, I’ve had some of those struggles too”, or “yes, I’m struggling, what are you doing about that?”
I think just this sense of when people are in therapy if they have support, that therapy process is so much easier than if they don’t have support. If we’re really like straining and stressing to find the sense of who are you connected with [00:36:41] that’s positive and healthy. That just takes a lot longer. Sometimes it ends up being the therapist. The therapist ends up being the positive relationship in their life until they can develop a healthy, positive relationship outside of therapy, but it works so much better if they have even just some kind of support people that they feel like they can call or talk to, or be open with.
So I wanted to ask you if you have any specific encouragement, maybe for people who are struggling with anxiety or OCD,
Pastor Randy: I’m not an expert on either one of those, but I’ve experienced both of those in my life and in the lives of people I care about. I would say that if anything to take the shroud of shame off of those things and to really get aggressive at seeing yourself as someone you’re willing to invest in and not being content with just trying to manage either one of those, but in that state, jump into counseling and find somebody that can help you understand what’s going on inside of you. Help you get some tools to really build and live a healthier you.
I’d also encourage you to find a church that would speak the gospel to you, and really speak the truth of God’s grace in your life. Find a community of people in that church that are willing to go on that faith journey with you that you can be vulnerable with and bring out of counseling into the open.
What’s happening here you might discover that people don’t run and hide from you when you share those vulnerable moments in your own life. You may actually find other people that are going, “me too.” That’s the journey together. You begin to see that what’s happening to you is not as unusual as you might think it is. That normalcy of our own struggles, I think let’s just take a deep breath and remove all the stuff from it that shouldn’t be on it anyway, which is just shame and embarrassment and the kind of things that we don’t want other people to see.
Carrie: That’s so good. I feel like it’s somewhat of a summary of the things that we’ve already been talking about.
Pastor Randy: What I’ve experienced in all the years that we’ve done in Midtown is nobody here has a hard time understanding that their centers, that relates to that’s a message that preaches itself, but you know what? Everybody has a hard time believing is that I’m Holy, but what Jesus did for me is he made me his beloved. That in Ephesians 1, it says that he chose me before the creation of the world and he has lavished grace on me and he did it because that’s his pleasure. That the pleasure of God is to pour on me a new name and love and wisdom and understanding. Sin, I have no need to convince me of that, but my shame is so loud sometimes believing that I am beloved, that my father in heaven is for me and he’s not against me.
Those are the things that I find unbelievable and there are things that are in the way for me to find that unbelievable. Sometimes there are barriers and sometimes there’s trauma and sometimes it’s addiction and sometimes it’s relationships and marriage that are hurting me. I feel belittled by my spouse or my children don’t respect me, or maybe I don’t love my kids
and I feel ashamed about that. All the things that we dare not even whisper in the shadows. And I would say to people, men, you need to pull all those things out and put them in the light of day. And a counselor is a great way to start but a community is a great place to trust. And then maybe you can start to believe the unbelievable story of what Christ came to do for us and what he’s done for us.
Carrie: Yeah. So good. At the end of every podcast, I ask our guests on the show to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.
Pastor Randy: So you sent me this question, what was this like 5 days ago and I thought about it. I could give you such great platitudes right now, Carrie, and talk about hope in Africa or all that kind of stuff and I thought that would be so unfair after this conversation. So I’m going to give you the real story. Okay, so in my garage, like I’m a motorcycle guy. It’s been something I’ve done since I was 15 and I love motorcycles in my garage. I have a couple of motorcycles and one is a project bike that’s been sitting in my garage, unmoved for almost a year and a half.
Sunday afternoon, one of my old friends called me and he said, “Hey, what are you doing this afternoon? Let’s get in your garage and play with that motorcycle.” I said, “okay, come on over.” And he’s one of those guys that we never get together and just talk small, talk like football, sports. He’s very open. He’s very vulnerable. He runs a prison ministry, he’s a musician and he plays to guys on death row. He’s just a very interesting guy. We played with that motorcycle for three hours and after it was done, that motorcycle started and I drove that thing up and down my street to the irritation of my neighbors because it has no muffler on it.
When he left, I realized there are things in our lives that sit dormant and we just avoid them. And I’m with that motorcycle for a year and a half, it’s in my garage and it wasn’t started, and sometimes it just takes a friend that calls and says, “Hey, I’m coming over and we’re going to open your garage.”
I just want to talk about that thing you have in your garage that should be running and it’s not, and it didn’t take a Herculean effort to get it started. It just took a Herculean friend who was willing to come over and when he left it just birthed hope in me that that’s what community is, is someone who’s willing to pick up the phone and say, “Hey, I’m coming over.”
And I would speak to the people in your audience who says, I don’t have a friend like that. And I would say, go be a friend like that. Go and be that friend and you’ll be surprised at how quick those kinds of people will gather around you and then come over to your garage.
Carrie: That’s really good and it only took three hours.
Pastor Randy: I know now they’re all my friends and they crack up that I still like riding motorcycles. Their kids love my motorcycles though. They’re very excited about that.
Carrie: They wave to you as you’re going down the street.
Pastor Randy: They want to get on the motorcycle with me.
Carrie: Very cool. Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom about vulnerability and community and connection with God and others. It’s been really great conversation and I think it’s really going to benefit people.
Pastor Randy: It’s a real joy to be with you, Carrie. Thank you so much.
I really think there are some great takeaways from this interview of just being there for other people, being the kinds of friends, and loving people that we want other people to be towards us. There’s a saying that if you’re able to be a friend, you’re able to make a friend.
I encourage you to find ways to make deeper connections. If you haven’t stopped by yet, I hope that you will visit our website, which is hopeforanxietyandocd.com.
Let me know what you would like to see on the website. I’m trying to compile some resources on there for you that I hope will be helpful.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.
Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Individuals who are diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) are often told that they need to receive Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) in order to treat their OCD. While ERP has been widely researched and works for some individuals, ERP is not the only treatment option for OCD. Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) can be effective for treating OCD, especially with individuals who have a history of childhood trauma.
In this episode, Rachel Hammons, a counselor in Nashville, shares her personal experience with scrupulosity OCD and how it affects both faith and mental health. She offers valuable insights on recognizing, understanding, and managing OCD, particularly in the context of moral and religious obsessions.
In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Rachel Hammons, a counselor based in Nashville who specializes in helping people with OCD, especially scrupulosity OCD, a subtype that can deeply affect individuals’ relationships with their faith. Rachel shares her personal journey with OCD, explaining how she came to recognize the condition within herself while studying it in her professional career. As someone who works with clients struggling with OCD, Rachel provides invaluable insight into how the condition can manifest, particularly in the realm of moral and religious obsessions.
Rachel opens up about the internal battles she faced, including the overwhelming need for certainty about right and wrong, which often resulted in compulsions such as seeking reassurance or mentally “correcting” thoughts she deemed sinful. She describes how this cycle of obsession and compulsion can make it difficult to differentiate between normal doubt and OCD-driven anxiety.
If you’re struggling with similar issues, whether you’re dealing with OCD or supporting someone who is, Rachel’s insights will resonate deeply. Tune into the full episode for a candid conversation on how to better understand scrupulosity OCD and learn tools that can help break free from its grip.
Links and Resources:
Rachel Hammons
More information on ERP and OCD
When I was a child, I remember feeling things very deeply, but not knowing how to express or manage those feelings. Experiencing emotion was like being knocked down by a tall wave. I was introspective, picked up on the subtleties of others’ emotions, and took everything personally. Even into college, one negative comment by someone could affect my entire day. I now have a greater understanding of my emotions, what it means to be highly sensitive, and how to handle things in a healthier way. However, for many years, having strong emotions felt like a curse. Feelings were uncomfortable, painful, and needed to be avoided at all costs.
Steve and I recorded this show about a month before our wedding. We talk about my anxiety during the dating process and his involvement in helping me work through it.
In this episode, I’m excited to share my story with my husband, Steve Bock, as we discuss my struggles with anxiety during our dating journey. We both faced challenges getting back into the dating world after previous marriages, with experiences of anxious feelings, especially around first dates and sharing our pasts.
We talk about overcoming fears, dealing with the stigma of dating after divorce in the Christian community, and our early dates, which included some funny mishaps like getting lost on a trail. Our journey has been about supporting each other through anxious moments and finding joy in the unexpected, which we hope can encourage others facing similar struggles.
We hope that our story resonates with others who may be facing similar challenges in their dating lives, reinforcing the idea that love can flourish even in the midst of anxiety and uncertainty. Join us as we explore this journey of faith, love, and growth together!
Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD.
I am very excited to share this episode with you. Episode 10, because I have my now amazing husband, Steve Bock on the show, and we are going to be talking about how anxious I was during our dating process.
I hope that this story encourages other people maybe who are scared to get out into the dating world, or if you have a partner or a husband, wife who is struggling with anxiety, this episode may help you a little as well as far as how to support them. So without further ado, we’ll dive into the show. So Steve, welcome to the podcast.
Steve: I’m excited to be here.
Carrie: Steve is normally a kind of behind-the-scenes guy and has done a little bit of public speaking, but tends to serve in the background. So I’m very excited that he is stepping out of his comfort zone a little bit and has agreed to be on the podcast.
Steve: Yeah, it’s good to be here. Nervous though.
Carrie: That’s okay cause we’re talking about anxiety, so it’s all good. Your anxiety is welcome.
We are about a month away from getting married.
Steve: Yey! It is good.
Carrie: We’re going to talk a little bit about our story and how we came to be a couple. My story actually started a little bit in the beginning of 2019 where I realized that I wanted to get back into dating, but every time I had tried in the past I would get these awful stomach aches.
I was very anxious about putting myself out there in any way, shape, or form. I had done online dating. I had done meetup groups where I had dated here and there with guys and I realized that I wanted to be married and that if I was going to do that, I was going to have to figure out how to work through this high level of anxiety that I had after my divorce about dating again. And so I ended up going to therapy over it and I told my therapist, I want to date but every time I go to do it, it’s just this awful anxiety comes over me. I can’t sleep. I have stomach aches and I just can’t do it. I can’t follow through.
It was really funny because I saw this man online. One of the reasons I went to go see a man was because I wanted a more of a male perspective on dating. I actually was cleaning out my file cabinet and I filled in the paperwork sometime in the fall of 2019 where I had sent this paperwork to him saying, “You know, I want a date, but I just can’t.”
And here’s why when I read that it was so therapeutic for me because I realized like, “Wow. I don’t feel this way anymore.” I was so excited to go to therapy and tell my therapist about finding that paperwork and saying, “Hey, I think I’m actually ready to date.” I think it’s time for me to put myself out there and I made the decision that I was going to try dating apps again. I got on a dating app and I had went on a few dates with a couple of different guys, but I just was a little bored and didn’t feel like I was making a good connection with the guys that I was meeting. This little heart kept popping up on Facebook every day when I would go in and it would say, “Try Facebook dating.”
I was like, “I don’t know about that. I’m not sure” but I thought, well, “shoot.” I’m not having any luck on this other app that I’m using so I might as well give it a try.
So what was your pre-us meeting story?
Steve: My pre-Carrie story is somewhat similar as far as the dating goes. I had a lot of people from church trying to set me up and those are always difficult because it doesn’t work out. You don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings but oftentimes it just didn’t, just something was missing. So that didn’t work and then I tried the online dating apps just like you and I thought here I am spending this money and getting nowhere.
So for me, I struggle my anxiety kicks in on that first date which I guess I’m not the only one that goes through that. I don’t think but just the same, it was very difficult.
There came a point where Facebook actually emailed me and said, “Hey, we’re gonna start an online dating service that will be free through Facebook and we’re interested in you. You have a nice Facebook page or whatever. It’s clean-cut, and there’s nothing terrible on it. So we wanted to know if you’re interested” and I thought, Wow! I’ve never actually gotten a thing from Facebook like that. I was a little bit special.
So I said, “Whoa, what have I got to lose? Why not?” And then after I said, yes, I thought, Oh gosh, what have I gotten myself into? I didn’t even look at what type of dating is this. What are they going to do? What are they going to ask of me and it wasn’t that bad. They asked me a series of questions and had me fill out the basics. Who am I? Where am I? All the normal stuff that you do on a dating app. So that made me feel good and then they said it might be a while. Well, I’d practically given up on the idea of it after waiting for like three months or something. maybe longer than that, but finally that little heart popped up and I started getting messages and, and then not long after there you were.
And so that’s where it all began.
Carrie: Yeah and we found out amazingly that we had a lot in common. We grew up about an hour away from each other in Florida. Even though we’re in Tennessee now. We had both been on mission trips and now we’re talking about mission trips and food and restaurants and other things we enjoyed together. So that was a lot of fun. We had a couple of phone calls and you talked a lot.
Steve: Yes. Do you want to talk about that? Well, ironically, you’re asking me if I talk a lot and to talk about it. I am one of those people that if I don’t know you or I’m in a big crowd, I probably won’t say much. It’s difficult when it’s like, “Hey Steve, this is a girl and you have to talk to her” and my mind goes, “Nope, don’t want to say a thing,” but then as you get comfortable, as I get comfortable, I had so much to talk about because I hadn’t shared anything with anybody in so long. So all I wanted to do was talk. I thought, “Wow! This woman, she’s a good listener.”
Well, little did I know you get paid to do that? I guess I knew, but anyways, you were easy to talk to. You are easy to talk to and a great listener.
Carrie: The really scary thing came for me of having to tell Steve that I was divorced because we hadn’t gotten to that part yet in our chats online or over the phone.
Steve: That didn’t bother me because I had the same issue and so the reaction you had was I kind of “felt bad for you cause you’d gotten yourself kind of worked up about it” like worried, and then I’m like, “Nah, it’s not a deal-breaker at all.” You know, I was married too. So that gave us something in common. So it kind of worked in our favor.
Carrie: There is some stigma in the Christian church when you’re dating and you’re divorced. It’s scary because I did have men say to me, “Hey, I need to pray about this for a few days.” That happened to me at least twice and you’re going to say, “okay, go pray about it.” My conscience is clear with God.
I don’t know. He’s going to have to communicate that to you one way or the other, or I need to know everything that happened and I need to know why it ended. So I guess if I would add just a word of advice thrown out there for people who are dating, if you haven’t been divorced, and you’re potentially dating people who are divorced, give it time for that story to unfold because often that story is pretty personal and pretty intimate like reasons why people’s marriages ending. Sometimes depending on how long it’s been since that point a lot of times those things aren’t relevant anymore at this level. Would you agree with that?
Steve: Without going into details, our stories were so similar, at least with me. I felt like people would come to a conclusion of, there’s gotta be a reason he’s divorced. What did he do? Maybe that’s not what they were thinking but that’s the feeling that I had from them. People, you can’t just jump out there and judge them like that because you don’t know and like you say, give them some time.
Carrie: Right. I think one of the things that you told me that I felt was very healing was that it takes two people to get married but it only takes one person to get divorced and in both of our situations, it wasn’t our choice. That wasn’t something that we wanted to do and we would have held on and done what we could to make it work, but there was no repair at that point.
Carrie: So then we branched out and met up for a first date at?
Steve: Plaza Mariachi, which if you’ve never been to a place like that. That is a wonderful place for a first date because it’s open. It’s easy to find and there’s so much going on. It offers you a pretty good place to sit and talk, although it did get a bit loud.
Carrie: Yeah. So Plaza Mariachi, for those of you who aren’t in the Nashville area, they basically took an old grocery store and they converted it into kind of an open mall concept. They’ve got a food court and they’ve got, you can get ice cream or tacos or coffee. They also have little shops kind of on the side but one thing that’s really fun that they have is performances. So, Steve, I was like, “okay, will you tell me a little bit more about your salvation story?” So he’s telling me, and he’s going through the process and of course, that’s kind of serious and then all of a sudden I just screamed, “fire!” Because all of a sudden, there’s this guy out in the middle of the food court, throwing around fire and breathing fire and all of this stuff.
Steve: Which I can’t see by the way.
Carrie: Because you’re back was to it.
Steve: Which seems when you’re given a little bit of your testimony, it doesn’t seem so wonderful when somebody else “fire” like, “Wow. I thought my story was good” but maybe I need to pray and start over here.
Carrie: So our second date, we got lost on a trail.
Steve: Yes. Mainly because they were doing some work on the trail and they didn’t mark the reroute. So we just kind of literally walked way past it.
Carrie: We missed the detour or something on the way back [01:00:37] and it’s getting closer to getting dark. This was in the late fall and it was getting dark earlier and so finally we decided to pull up the map and realize we are way down South and we need to get back up the other way to our car. So fortunately that date went well because otherwise, that would have been a long walk back to the car.
Steve: That would have been very difficult. I have to walk back that far with a person you don’t want to be with, that wouldn’t be good, but that was a good test for us because that was kind of a moment where it could have went either way. We’re together and got a few laughs and it was worth it. It was good.
Carrie: I think the coffee shop type date is good when you’re first getting to know somebody because you can leave in a short amount of time or something, but it’s nice to be able to do things with people, to look at stuff, and see how they interact around other people and also how they interact with you. And we had to problem solve on a date too. So that was actually good.
Steve: Definitely. I thought it was an easy deal. Just walk this way and make a turn and come back and you’re done.
Carrie: Yeah, there was a snafu on date three.
Steve: Yes, which wasn’t all my fault.
Carrie: No, it was not. You want to share what happened?
Steve: Yeah. I think you had suggested the place and I thought,” Oh yeah, I think I’ve been there.” That’s a great place, I think. That sounds good. The deal is to make it short and simple. There are two restaurants on the same road, not what four miles apart, I think same name. Both of them are Mexican restaurants.
They are almost identical. So I call her and I’m like, “well, I’m here just waiting” and she said, “I’m here at the table.” Wait like, “Oh no.”
That’s when we discovered we were both at a restaurant with the same name on the same street but it was not the same restaurant. So I had to find her. I went to the wrong one, by the way, not her.
Carrie: So that was fun and then we went to go see the Opera Land Hotel where they decorate everything for Christmas, really nice. We just walked around there and we took our first picture together and that was sweet. So time went on in our relationship and we were talking on a regular basis and we were seeing each other a couple of times a week.
Carrie: One thing that you did relatively early on in our relationship was made a decision to take a night off work per week because you were working in the evenings and I think that was a big sign to me that you were interested in kind of moving the relationship forward.
Steve: For me, any relationship that I had with friends, that was the problem is that I work way too much in my mind. I thought if I’m going to make this work because I do like this girl, and if I’m going to make this work, I don’t think working all the time is going to help our relationship. You can’t just see one another here and there and expect it to work and only do the phones. So I knew I had to take a night off to make that work. I think that benefited us a lot.
Carrie: Yeah, it really did. I think it kept me going forward because I don’t know if I can do a one-day-a-week relationship or just have a weekend relationship with somebody. I want to get to know them more and have it go deeper.
Carrie: So things progressed along and I was working with my therapist off and on but I started to have these awful nightmares.
They would be things like, I went to go catch a flight and I get to the ticket counter and I’ve missed my flight and the lady is saying, “I’m sorry, Ma’am, there’s nothing that we can do for you. You didn’t get here in time” or I didn’t make it to a concert that I had tickets to.
As I was talking through these nightmares with my therapist, I realized that they all had this kind of common theme and it was okay, I’m gonna like royally screw this relationship up and it’s going to be my fault. Something’s going to go bad and it’s going to be on me.
I just decided to tell Steve about these nightmares that I was having and be really honest about it. I’m nervous like I’m getting closer to you and that feels really vulnerable and really scary because I don’t want to get hurt again.
Steve: Absolutely and when you told me, I got it. I can’t say that it was my dream but I completely wanted to understand you. That would be horrible to have to go through that and have that dream and that fear and that anxiety. So for me, I thought the best thing to do was to just be patient and wait.
Carrie: Yeah. I know that my therapist helped me realize that it was tied back to some past stuff and then I was in a different place in my life. I was an adult and I really could protect myself if I needed to. Something about what we processed and me coming to that conclusion of “Oh, okay. I’m actually safe.” Not only am I safe but I can also protect myself. That allowed me to stop having those nightmares really after the one processing session which was amazing. I know there were a lot of different points in our relationship where I felt like I was seeking reassurance from you of “Hey, is everything okay?” “Are we good?” Did that frustrate you or annoy you at times?
Steve: In a way, it was a big compliment because it meant that you were getting to a point where you wanted to trust me and wanted to get to know me. We wanted to grow more as a couple. So it kind of in a weird way. It sort of made me happy because I knew if we can get through this then we can make it. We can grow as a couple. So I was kind of excited but I knew when somebody’s going through something, you can’t get aggravated with them because that’s their something and if you’re going to be a couple, you have to go through things together. I knew that. So I knew I had to just be patient and hear you out. I know that you would do the exact same thing for me. I wouldn’t want you to get all irritated with me and say, “Hey, you jerk.” That’s part of relationships. I think though that’s a key thing.
Carrie: Right. One of the things that really helped me through that process was when I would come to you with something like I’m having a nightmare or I’m scared about this, or I just need to know that our relationship is okay because we got in a fight or something like that, that you are just so open to say, “it’s okay.” However you’re feeling is, how you’re feeling and now we have to figure out what to do and how to move forward because I think so many times, people try to say, “just don’t feel anxious.” like, yeah, I need to worry about that. I mean, everything’s fine instead of just really like allowing it to be there and sitting with it and saying, you know, I know that there were several times that you told me, of course, you’re having a hard time trusting. Of course, you’re having a hard time opening up. This is still somewhat new.
Steve: I mean if it were anything else maybe this is a bad example, but if you were riding a bicycle and you had just fallen off that bicycle but you wanted to ride that bike, you would get back on it. I think relationships are similar, you have to get back at it and keep trying, or you’re never gonna get through it if you don’t keep trying. That’s my opinion but you did a lot of things for me as well though where I would have a bad day and whatever, and you were very, very patient with me when I would get aggravated, whatever it is. There were days where I thought, why in the world would she want to be with me? But you still, you man, and not to get all sappy, but you made life a lot better. Let me rephrase that, you make life a lot better.
Carrie: One of the things that I realized was we had taken a few pictures amongst the first couple of months of dating and one day I was just kind of scrolling through those pictures in my phone and I had this realization and this epiphany of I was happy before I met Steve. So it’s not like you made me happy. I believe very much that there was joy and a contentment in the Lord even though I was longing to have a mate which I believe was a God-given desire that I had. But when I looked at those pictures, I was like, “Man, I went from happy to like ridiculous level happy.” And I don’t know do you feel kind of like, maybe talk a little bit about that process for you as far as like where you were before we met versus now?
Steve: Sure. Prior to us meeting, I was at a moment where I thought I know that God has someone there for me, but boy I don’t know what I’m doing wrong or what I should be doing. There was just this, it’s almost like when you’re driving on the road and you’re going the wrong way, but you keep going and hope that maybe I’ll see a sign soon. Eventually, you came along, but I had to be patient to get to that.
I think there was a waiting period for me to not rush anything, to not force anything to happen because I really wasn’t happy. I was alone. I didn’t like that. I’m not that type of person. I like doing for others and a single person who likes to do for others, that’s not always a great setup. I mean, you can go and volunteer and do all the things you want, but it isn’t necessarily going to be something that makes you happy if you’re longing for someone. So for me, once I met you, I thought, “Wow! I really like her.” There could be something here. It was actually when we took our flight to Florida, then I knew because long story short, what I call my adopted mom she had cancer and I was told you need to go see her because you may not have another chance. I was really, really upset about that and you went with me, you’re like, “well, I’ll just go with you,” and, “Oh my goodness. Really?” This might be the one. I knew then for sure.
I don’t know if that answers your question but that was definitely a turning point prior to that. I wasn’t so sure before we dated, I definitely felt lost.
Carrie: Just to clarify, adopted mom is your best friend’s mom.
Steve: My best friend’s mom basically feeds me because I eat a lot. She did things for me that I needed in my life as well. So I’m just one of those special people that needed two moms. That’s all. She did not legally adopt me and she was not my birth mom or anything like that.
Carrie: To understand the context of our flight to Florida was literally that week COVID-19 had been declared a global pandemic and like nobody was flying. There were maybe like 20 people on one of our flights and then on the way back, they kept canceling the flight and they consolidated a bunch of flights. So there were more people on that one, but that was scary because we didn’t know at that point in time. Everybody was being told to stay at home. Don’t travel. Don’t go places and life at the same time was still going on and you knew if I don’t go see second mom, I may not get to see her even if she passes. So we prayed about it. I always just said, “God, please protect us and just please shelter us and cover us” and he did and we did not get sick. Praise the Lord. We did wear masks before wearing masks was required.
Steve: I’m going to back up a second on you. You asked me about things before I met you. One of the things was when you introduce someone to your family or tell your family, “Hey, I’m dating someone.” That for me, there comes a point where you say, “Oh, I just don’t know.”
I don’t want to, I don’t know. You want to be sure. All right, this has got a really good chance. Now I will tell my family. Right now, I don’t know if other people do that, but that was me. When I called my parents up and this is such a silly story.
Carrie: I know you got to tell this.
Steve: I would be in trouble if I didn’t tell this. So I thought it would be a good point, I was talking to both my parents as I often do and telling them, “well, guys, I got something I need to tell you.” And so they’re like, “Oh wait, this guy never gets serious. This must be really important.” I said, “I’m seeing a therapist.” And my dad said, “Oh my gosh, is everything okay?” and I said, “Well, yeah, it’s our I guess second, third date” something like that. Now what he said, “Isn’t that a little unethical for you to be seeing a therapist?” And I said,” well, yeah, but no, no, not that kind of seeing our therapist.” I said, “it’s our second date third date, whatever it was.” I wasn’t seeing you as my therapist.
And that took a little while for my dad to kind of get the idea that I was kind of giving him a hard time that I was actually dating a girl who happens to be a therapist, not dating my therapist. Yeah. That’s kind of our fun story.
Carrie: That was pretty funny. I laughed so hard and then I said, “Oh, please tell me, you clarified that with your dad” like you were never my client just for clarification. I was like, your dad does know we met on Facebook, right? Was it weird for you finding out that I was a therapist? Because sometimes that’s weird when you meet people.
Steve: A little bit. Only because I was afraid that the first date was going to be less personal and more, well, “how does that make you feel, Steve?” and “How do you feel when.” I wanted to be with someone who is real, not someone who is on the other side as a therapist. I was hoping, and you did that, you can let go of that therapist mode to be able to date and be you, but that, honestly, it’s not like that lasted very long. That was just a moment of “Well, therapists are real too.” It worked out great though.
Carrie: Yeah. We’re human beings. People don’t realize that a lot of times they’re just like, “Oh gosh, you’re going to analyze me or something” and a lot of times I’ll just joke and I’ll say “I’m off the clock”.
One of the other reasons I wanted to have you on the show was really to encourage single people who maybe aren’t even dating right now. Maybe they’re like me and they were hurting and burned and they’re still healing from that. Or maybe they’re in a situation where they just don’t feel like there is anybody to date and you are single for a long time as a Christian. And that’s a hard space to be in because the church and as it should be is so pro-marriage and you feel awkward or like the odd one out, a lot of times.
Steve: Absolutely. I felt like the reject a lot of times, like what is wrong with me? You know, for me, after going through the divorce, I thought, well, let me give this two years before I date at all. A year to get over that situation as best I can, a year to find me and then I thought then I’ll date and everything will be great, whatever, but it didn’t quite work like that. I can’t tell you how many times people would say, “Man, you have really high standards. You’re going to be single for a long time”, but it was important to me to have a checklist.
The first one on there, she’s got to be Christian. That is important. Not go to church. That’s not enough. I mean, Christian, like a relationship. So I went a very long time as a single man and it’s difficult. Part of that is you get this feeling of am I good enough? And there were moments where I didn’t even try.
I just didn’t. I thought, well, I can’t force it. If it happens, it happens. If you’re not doing anything and you’re not even trying, the likeliness of just stumbling upon whoever it is you’re supposed to be dating. That’s not. You have to search, you don’t find if you don’t search typically.
But I was scared, I thought, am I good enough? And all of that. Anyways, I try dating through church and different avenues and they just didn’t fit for me. That’s not saying if there’s a church out there that has a singles ministry, that it’s a bad idea. No, it’s just the ones that I went through didn’t work for me. It took me a lot of tries and a long, long time.
Carrie: I actually met someone in the singles ministry at church, and he had come a couple Sundays, literally to meet a woman I think, and I start talking to him and realize he’s not even saved. Like he doesn’t even have a relationship and so now I’m like witnessing this guy, like do you know, like it’s not just about going to church or it’s not just like, yeah, I believe in God. You’ve got to have a relationship with Jesus and he just did not understand.
I think he really thought that he had a saving relationship with Christ and I remember being very discouraged by that because I was like, okay, God, I’m in the church and I’m trying to meet a godly man. I ended up meeting someone who’s not a Christian. So, I would agree with you that I remember there were definitely times where I cried out to God and I just said, “Lord, I don’t see it.”
I don’t see single men out there that are living for you and if that’s the case, then I’ve got to stay single until I find somebody. Finding that you not only went to church, but you were serving in the church already, that you were being mentored and going through continued discipleship with other men in the church. That was really exciting for me. I was like, “How is this man not been snatched up yet?”
Steve: And it was funny to me too, that in serving, I hate to say it this way, but that’ll really make me desirable. It doesn’t work like that but I did think that at a moment and I thought, “yeah, I do missions.” Surely, that’s not why I did missions, but at the same time, I thought this will be great. It doesn’t work like that. It’s what it is.
Carrie: Yeah. I know that everybody says this. I don’t want to be cliche, but I really feel like so much is about timing and I think about even God’s grace in the timing that we met and we’re able to meet each other’s families before COVID really hit and get to know each other and go out and do things before everything shut down.
That was really God’s grace at that point. When you’re in the middle of something, it’s really, really hard to have perspective on it. So like when you’re in the middle of your single loneliness, sexless life, let’s just be honest and you’re sitting there going, “Oh gosh, like, am I ever going to meet somebody?”
It’s really, really hard. And so I guess if you’re in that place, I just want to encourage you and say like I’ve been there. I’ve been crying in the car or crying in my bed about how I’m never gonna meet anybody. But now when I look back on it, I’m like, “Oh, gosh, God is so gracious and so good to me.” And it’s almost like he had this gift and he was like, “You can’t have it now. It’s not for now, but I have it for you already. I’m going to give it to you when it’s time, when you’re ready to receive that gift and you’re ready to have it. I’m going to give it to you.” I think it’s really shifted my perspective on other things in my life that I’m praying and I’m seeking God for, and I’m asking him for, and it’s allowed me to just really trust in His timing more and more.
Steve: Absolutely and like you say, I think you’re absolutely right, it’s about timing. If I would’ve seen you 15 years ago, would it have been the same? No. Everything had to match up. You had to go through what you went through and I had to go through what I went through.
I’ve matured so much as a Christian since then. So, it’s a good thing that we had to wait, but when you’re going through it, it does not feel like a good thing. No one says, “Oh, I’m so glad to be single and sprinkle…I can’t even talk single and miserable and I’m so glad I have to wait. Yeah, this is wonderful.
I’m lonely. I don’t even like myself. Isn’t this great. You know what I mean? But when you look back, you see how you’re molded and you’re preowned and the right one is there for you.
Carrie: Yeah, let’s just do some, maybe some general advice for single Christians. I would say really be passionate and dedicated to something specifically God. Obviously putting God first and serving the church. I think too many single Christians I’ve seen are going to this church over here on Sunday mornings and they sometimes hit that church over there on Wednesday nights and they’re not really necessarily dedicated to a church or they attend, but they aren’t pouring into it. They aren’t serving.
I think, any opportunity to be really dedicated and committed and serve others because as a single person, sometimes we can really get self-absorbed and just kind of into what we’ve got going on and just going through the motions and survival. And so being able to be committed to something or committed to the church prepares you for when you’re committed to another person because if you’re willing to carve out, say that time to serve the children’s ministry. Then you’re going to be willing to carve out that time to date someone. You’re going to be willing to carve out that time when you do get married.
Steve: That will be something that if you’re looking for someone when they see that you’re working in serving in the church and you’re happy and doing it, they’re going to see that as a great gift. That is a wonderful thing. It’s a great attribute versus “Oh, well, look at the desperate one there.” That’s who I want. Nobody wants to be desperate. Serve more because what you need is what you need to do and that’s what they’ll look at.
Carrie: I think for me too, when I knew I was ready to date again, it was because I felt like for the first time, in a long time, I felt like I had something to give. I wasn’t just looking for what I was going to receive as part of the relationship and that was really huge for me.
Steve: I didn’t want to be, for me, that person who is just afraid to be alone because you see people that date and the only reason that maybe they’re dating, maybe this is judgmental on my part, but you get the idea that the only reason they’re dating because they don’t want to be alone. That’s just a recipe for disaster. I think being patient there’s a lot to that.
Carrie: Any other advice or anything else you want to add?
Steve: We didn’t say this and we should have. Pray a lot. Pray a lot about it and don’t just say, “God help me to find a wonderful, beautiful woman.” Don’t be selfish about it.
Pray that you’ll be the right person for them because he’s got a future for you, but you need to be ready.
Carrie: And you’ve got to be willing to work on yourself and examine yourself and look at how can I prepare myself? How can I surrender to God’s transformation process in my life?
If you’re not a person who’s willing to receive feedback from other people, that’s going to be a stumbling block in a relationship. If you’re a person that has a hard time being honest about what you think and feel that’s going to be a stumbling block, but the good news is that you really can work on those things in your friendships and your relationships with coworkers, in your relationships with family and other people in the church and community and that’s so valuable. Those things are really going to prepare you. I definitely would agree with what you said about praying and really allowing God to bring forth that prayer process, the qualities that you really want to have in a spouse.
I know one of the things that I prayed for was somebody who would be in love with Jesus, not just go to church who would be serving the church, who would be involved in ministry opportunities and who would pray with me and who would be willing to encourage my spiritual journey as well.
There were many different characteristics that I was able to pray through and then go back and look at our relationship and look at you and say, “okay, these are the things that I’ve already been praying for and now I’m seeing the answer to those prayers.”
Steve: Yeah. That was important with the prayer was not just me praying. I don’t know for you if this happened, but for me as a guy, I had to open up to someone and say, “Hey bro, do you mind praying for me that I won’t be single and miserable?” I’ll be the man that God wants me to be for whoever or wherever she is. And so I did. There were several people praying, but there were two specifics. One was a former pastor’s wife and another was a very close accountability partner, buddy whatever you want to call them of mine.
And they’re both just two of the most, I don’t know if I could say the most Christian people I know, but definitely there in the word every day they are connected. They are great prayer warriors and both of them prayed like crazy and so, boy did their faces light up when I said, “Hey, guess what? I found someone.”
Get someone to pray with you because it’s not just about you praying. God wants us to include others. It’s not a solo thing. So get someone to pray with you because they can tell you things that maybe you’re ignoring or you’re not seeing. They can go deeper with you. It’s worth it.
Carrie: We’re both blessed to also have praying parents who watched us go through divorce and obviously were heartbroken because no parent wants that for their kids and they really were praying along with us.
Steve: Yes. I think my mom is more protective of you than she is of me, which is really saying a lot, but that’s a good thing. She always wants to know, “are you treating her good?” How is she doing? That’s good though. That’s what I want. It’s a good thing. It’s a good feeling.
Carrie: I didn’t tell you were going to be asked this, but at the end of every episode on hope for anxiety and OCD, what we ask is for the guests to share a story of hope, which is a time that you received hope from God or another person.
Steve: Wow. That is a tough question. Probably when my brother died because that was someone who I was extremely close to. I had really more than one person, but there were a few that came up beside me and just kind of said, “Hey, we know you’re not going to open up about what’s going on, maybe, but we’re praying for you.” Specific prayers, very specific. That gave me hope because I had never been through life without my brother. Losing a family member that is so difficult but having people there that said, “Steve, we know that you lost someone and we can’t fix that but what we can do is we’ll be your family.” “Where you had that phone call with your brother, every whatever day we’ll call you. We’ll do this or we’ll do that.”
So that’s part of how my mission family that I have actually grew because that group of people who I did missions with, they would call me and they would just show up and say, “Hey, you want to go out to dinner?” “You want to go out to lunch.” Do the things that my brother and I might do. So that gave me hope. It made me realize if someone’s going through someone or something, you need to do that for them. Stand up and do something. Be there for people.
Carrie: Just being there is so important. Thank you so much for sharing all of your singleness. It’s always good laughing with you.
Steve: Yes, always good laughing with you too.
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I am so thankful that Steve was willing to come on the podcast. He’s a bit more of a private behind-the-scenes guy. So this was really a gift to me to get to interview him and share our story and talk a little bit about what dating was like for us. I hope it provided some encouragement to some other people who are out there maybe who are struggling with anxiety in this area.
Since this is our 10th episode and we launched with 10 episodes, I really want to hear from you as far as what parts of the show do you really like. What parts do you not like? What things can we improve on and make them better for you?
This is not just about me talking into a microphone, finding some friends to interview, and throwing it out there. It’s really my desire that this information be encouraging, helpful, and hopeful. So whether you think that we’re meeting those goals, or we’re not, please let us know on carriebock.com/podcast
Thanks so much for listening.
Maybe this is a question you’ve asked yourself. Perhaps you have concerns about side effects, becoming dependent on medication, or wonder if this option is for you. My response to this question is always the same: It’s a personal decision. Each person has to decide what is best for their body depending on their own symptoms. Some of my clients are able to tolerate medication with little side effects while others try several different medications and react negatively to all of them. Some want to try counseling first before starting medication. I respect and honor each individual’s decision.