Tag: Healing Through Community

Carrie: Okay., Chris, welcome to the podcast today, and just tell, give us a brief overview of who you are.

Chris: Yeah. So,, I’m Chris Russo, and I live in the Charleston, South Carolina area., I’ve been a pastor for about 20 years. I’ve got three sons who are,, one actually just turned 16 today. Okay. So I’ve got a 16-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 10-year-old, and my wife Abby and I are coming up on 20 years of marriage in January.

Chris: So yeah.,,, I’ve been pastor… I’ve been the lead pastor of a church for about three years, and before that I was on staff at Seacoast Church,, in the Charleston area for about 18 years. So,, yeah, I became a Christian when I was in college, and that was a crazy experience and it’s been a, it’s been a cool journey.

Carrie: Awesome. A wild ride ever since.

Chris: Yes.

Carrie: Yeah. So tell us a little bit about, like, your OCD story in terms of when did you, the symptoms come out and when did you make the connection like, “Oh, hey, this is what’s actually going on,” and

Chris: Yeah, so I think that probably,, it initially started when I lost my mom at age nine to cancer.

Chris:, I, I think it, it was at that point that I subconsciously adopted a script that the world is a really scary place that can take anything from you at any time. But I wouldn’t say I was really… I, I u- throughout middle school and high school, I used so many numbing techniques when it came to any anxiety.

Chris: And on, on top of that, mental health lingo, at least I,, growing up in Connecticut, really wasn’t, like, a popular thing. Like, I don’t even know that I knew about anxiety until later on in life. So even though there may have been some prevalence throughout middle and high school, I would say,, it really started actually when I became a Christian.

Chris:, I, I wouldn’t say it necessarily started, but it really showed up in force because I stopped, I stopped the drugs. I stopped,,,, I stopped the use of pornography. So I stopped a lot of the numbing agents that I was previously using, and then I really didn’t ha- I mean, all of a sudden, I’m starting this walk with God without these crutches that I’d used for so long, and these struggles started coming, what felt like out of nowhere.

Chris: Yeah. And then it wasn’t… And so I became a Christian when I was 18, and, and I wasn’t diagnosed with OCD by a psychiatrist until I was 27. I mean, it wa- it was a hard road.

Carrie: Yeah. I’m sure., what were some of the, like, themes that,, have come out for you that you struggled with?

Chris: So the first one, I mean,, I didn’t grow up…

Chris: Like, I grew up,, going to Catholic church once a year. So I mean, I went to catechism, but I, I was not a practicing Catholic. I had no real relationship with God. I,, I would pray that I would sink a putt on the golf course or win a baseball game., but it was when,… And sorry, repeat the question.

Chris: I just wanna make sure I understand it.

Carrie: Yeah., like what are some of the themes that you dealt with?

Chris: Yeah. So as soon as I became a Christian, I was so filled with life like I had never felt before. But as I was reading the Bible, I had no previous understanding of scripture. So I’m like, I went from a worldview, and I don’t think a l- a lot of people that didn’t grow up in church can really appreciate this.

Chris: I went from an agnostic, like maybe there’s something out there, maybe there’s a God, maybe there’s heaven, that thing- Mm-hmm… to reading this Bible, talking about heaven and hell, and angels and demons, and all this stuff that I really,, didn’t even believe in 20 seconds ago. And then I started coming across scriptures that through, for a variety of reasons, started to feel like, “Wow, there, maybe there’s a possibility that I could lose this wonderful salvation, this wonderful relationship with God that I just received.”

Chris: So the major theme that I felt like would never end was the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Like, I just, I didn’t understand it really, but to me, I felt like I had stumbled across a crack in the salvation landscape. And it didn’t matter who I talked to. I would talk to as,, I would seek reassurance from pastors and as many people as I could.

Chris: And no matter who I talked to, and no matter what theology text I saw, there was still something that was like you could ste- It felt, it felt like, honestly, as silly as it sounds, it felt like you could step on a crack and break your mother’s back. I felt like I had to tiptoe around God because somehow, and it’s a terrible Trinitarian view, but somehow I’m like, “Okay, the Father is really loving.

Chris: Jesus still creeps me out because all the stained glass windows that I saw growing up, he was never smiling. He never seemed happy.” So I was always, like, a little freaked out about Jesus. But the Holy Spirit, I’m like, “Apparently, he’s, like, the really sensitive member of the Trinity, and if you say the wrong thing to him, he’s gonna peace out and you go to hell forever.”

Chris: So I was terrified of the Holy Spirit.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and, and you can joke about it now, but, like, when you’re in the midst of that, like, storm, it feels, like, so super real. Like, this is, like, this is really, really bad. And, and I think that that’s interesting, that parallel between losing your mother and at a very young age, which,, impacts you profoundly developmentally, and then this sense of,, now I’m afraid that I’m gonna lose God.

Carrie: I’m gonna lose this, like, really positive connection that I have, and, and childhood taught me basically that things could be ripped away from you, and now,, there’s this parallel over here that,, my relationship with God could be ripped away. Like, how do you feel like losing your mom and, and maybe some other things that you went through as a result of that affected your view of God?

Chris: Yeah,, that’s a really interesting insight you brought up that I remember– I’ve been in,, professional counseling now for,, about 10 years, but that insight that you just brought up, I mean, I can’t remember how many counselors have told me, like, “Chris, like, it happened to you.” Like, everything was ripped away so quickly that, — A-and just drawing the connection between that and that fear, like, it,, I, I still– I, I wouldn’t say I’ve worked through that, but I would say that definitely made me feel– I think that sort of, and I really don’t understand it, but I would say that sort of primed me for feeling like, yeah, like, this, this could happen.

Chris: It has happened, and I don’t think I sub– I don’t think I consciously, like, logged as a nine-year-old- Sure… like, everything could be taken away from you, but su-, however subconscious priming works, I think that, that developed,, a mindset or a defense mechanism in me where it’s like, yeah, the most important things in your life can be stripped away regardless of what they are.

Chris: So,, don’t,,, don’t,, don’t get too excited. Don’t allow yourself to enjoy or to really rest in anything because it’s probably not gonna last.

Carrie: Yeah. I think a lot of people,, buy into that, to that lie. Like, don’t, don’t hope too much, don’t get too excited, don’t feel too good because it’s,, just– it’s all gonna be dashed and all gonna be taken away.

Carrie:, so h- tell us about, like, your view of God, like from this really fearful lens, it sounds like,, to a more loving father heart of God view.

Chris: Yeah. So it’s,, it’s definitely been a journey. So I would s– I remember actually being at a worship service one time, and this lady came up to me. And this is when I started to– One of the moments when I started to realize that I had a really,, warped view of God.

Chris: I remember her coming up to me in this service. Her name was Migsy, and she came up to me in service and she said, “God just adores you.” And I, I was probably in my twenties at that point. I’m forty-three right now. And I just remember how ridiculous that idea sounded, like God adoring you. I just felt like,,, like I was at a place right then that- E-even though, like, intellectually I sort of understood the gospel, I was at a place right then where I thought, “God’s definitely frustrated with me.

Chris: Maybe He’s rejected me. At best, He tolerates me, but adores?” Like, that sounded psychotic. And yet there was some deep resonance even when she said that, that felt like that was true, but why can’t I absorb that? And so– And then I,, once I started really seeing a Christian counselor, she told me that through the concoction that we’ve talked about, losing my mom,, not having a super close relationship with my dad growing up, that me receiving the gospel…

Chris: And she wasn’t trying to be mean to me. She was just like saying, “This is what we’re up against, like we’ve gotta drain the swamp.” She said a lot of the theology that I had voraciously taken in through seminary and,, a million books or whatever, it was like pouring water on a rock, that I just couldn’t receive it.

Chris: And so I started to realize that, okay, may… And that’s when I started to think, “Okay, maybe God is way more loving than I, than, than I can, than I can conceive of,” but it still was, like, a long time from that point to really actually believing that He, that He was truly loving. So, like, people would tell me things like, “Quote Matthew three seventeen,” like, “Hey, Chris, like, G-because of the gospel, God sees you as His, as His beloved son with whom He’s well pleased.”

Chris: And there’d be some part of me that, like, the, the ice would chip a little bit.,, I, I think I started to ask the question like, “Okay, God can be a great,…” G- I, I hear all these messages about how God can re-father you and all that stuff, but can God re-mother you? Like, I, like, that, I just didn’t hear that message, but I didn’t have any reason to think otherwise.

Chris: So then a passage like First Peter five seven, like that really, that really stuck to me. Like, “Cast all your anxiety on Him because He cares for you.” And I think that idea of God caring for me was really one that, that hit that maternal point where it was like, “Oh, like, so You’re, like, in the water with me.

Chris: It’s not, You’re not this austere God that sits on the far off side of some chasm or,, sees me drowning from the beach, hopes the best for me, maybe throw out a, a raft, but isn’t gonna come and, isn’t gonna come and get me.”, it’s actually funny. I do remember actually a vivid– I don’t have many memories of my mom, but I do have a vivid memory of I was like, I was probably like, I’ve always been short, but I was really short when I was growing up, and I was like in probably five feet of water, and I might’ve been five one or something like that, and I was like starting to drown, and my mom came into the water in a, in a full sundress and rescued me.

Chris: She’s the only one that saw me. It was a crowded pool. It’s random that, that, that came up. But yeah, so slowly but surely, and I think through some… I’ve had all female counselors, and I think that that’s been,, except for one. I’ve had all female counselors, and that’s been really restorative for God to work through.

Chris: Not,, I don’t think I like deified or idolized any of these women, but the, but God working distinctly through, the, these women to show me more of his caring, maternal qualities has all, ha- has all contributed to me feeling like, okay, God pursues. He’s close. He, He cares., but it’s still a struggle.

Chris: It’s still, like, one of those spots that I need more strengthening in, but I believe it. I’ve at least learned to doubt my doubts a little bit. Like, I know that when- That’s good… I know that when the tube of toothpaste gets squeezed,, when life hits, the storms hit and whatever, and I default to, “God, you probably don’t care,” I can at least flag it in my mind and say, “Wait a minute.

Chris: Hold on. That’s a familiar message. I don’t trust that. God, I know you care.” like a, “Lord, help my unbelief” moment.

Carrie: I think it’s one of the things I wanted to touch on, the seeing a counselor of the opposite sex because,, and I almost recorded an entire podcast episode on this one time and I ki- and I scrapped it.

Carrie: So I may run back to it at some point or another, but I think that in,, certain church circles, it’s very taboo. It’s like, if you’re a man, you need to see a man. If you’re a woman, you need to see a woman. And there are things that we can get from the opposite sex that we can’t get,, from the same sex.

Carrie:, the things that you’re talking about. Like, like, there were some type of, like, unmet needs that God really used these female counselors in a very professional and appropriate way to give, to show you that love and that caring, and I think that that’s so valuable., I know for myself, because of what I’ve just spoken at, I know that there are, are several men that have seen me and they’re like, “You’re my first female counselor,” and they’re just a little bit terrified about that.

Carrie: So I guess I wanna talk,, just throw that out there,, not to derail the conversation, but I think that that’s, that that’s important for people to know, like, it’s okay to see a counselor of the opposite sex as a Christian, and that can still be a really professional place for you to get certain needs met.

Carrie:, I went through, when I was going through trying to date again at,, post-divorce,, I saw a male counselor and it was incredibly helpful because I needed that opposite point of view,, in essence, and I needed him to speak certain things into my life that I don’t think I could have gotten from, from a female counselor.

Carrie: So I think that that’s, that… I, I believe that’s really beautiful that God,, used those people in your life for that purpose.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause I think I’ve always responded pretty well. Not that, not that I d- haven’t– ’cause I’ve had male mentors before. Sure. Like, I’ve sought them out. So I’ve had,, restorative,…

Chris: And my relationship with my dad has gotten much better since when I was a, a hell-raising teenager., so I’ve had b- between him and a lot of,, male mentors, I’ve had those, those,… I’ve had my dad, I’ve had different father figures. But,, yeah, it– as I think about, it wasn’t like one day I set out and I’m like, “I need to see a female counselor.”

Chris: It was, it felt… I would say when I think back on each female counselor that I did see, it was pretty serendipitous in the way that I connected with them. Like, it was recommended. It was,, it, so I, it really felt provisional. It wasn’t– I don’t think I, there was some part of me that felt like I need to…

Chris: ‘Cause the approach in counseling in general, especially in the beginning, was such a mysterious realm for me. I mean, I’m thankful for– it, it feels like the church has really,, and the mental health community have really formed a closer relationship. But when I first was starting on this journey,, I, it, it felt very mysterious to me.

Chris: So there wasn’t some part of me that was like, that n- I didn’t have any idea what I needed. So I’m really thankful that I feel like God helped lead me to these different female counselors, because now in retrospect, I look back and I’m like, gosh, I really think them being females really helped in that,,, in that nurturing, that,, providing some things that maybe I couldn’t have gotten from a male counselor.

Chris: But that was not really an intentional, calculated decision on my part., that was more a, a provisional thing if it, when I really think about it.

Carrie: Yeah. I was thinking too, as you were talking about these,, female characteristics, how, like, Jesus said about Jerusalem, like, “I long to” something like, “I long to gather you like little chicks,, but you were unwilling,”?

Carrie: And, and just this picture of seeing their,, their need for God and their, their brokenness, and it’s like, “I really wanted to nurture you in that way.” I know in the Old Testament, there are some scriptures about,, comparing,, I’d have to look those up, but talking about, like, nursing and nursing mothers and things like that.

Carrie:, we’ll look those up and we may put that in the outro. But,,, there are, there are these pictures of God. So if your, if your view of God is this harsh, staunch, male, militant figure, it might be helpful for people to meditate on some of those other scriptures and really look into that.

Chris: Yeah, I, I think I would benefit more from that because it is, it’s super easy.

Chris: I mean, especially, I mean, and I won’t even start going through them ’cause I don’t wanna trigger anybody, but there are definitely passages of scripture that I… And I,, I just, my wife and I just read through the New Testament, and right now we’re doing a whole Bible plan, so I really try to, like, go th-, embrace God’s Word for what it is.

Chris: But there are definitely passages where I have to, that, that trigger that fear response of like, oh,. And I’ve just learned to just sorta like,,, allow the emotions to sit and not to just trust that the lens that I’m seeing them through, it must be the way that they are.

Chris: Because there are some times where I’m like, “Jesus, you seemed really harsh.” Like, there have been times where I’ve heard people talk about the Bible as a love letter, and ultimately I believe it is. I really do. But there are times where I hear people say that, and I’m like, “Have you read it?” Like- There’s

Carrie: a lot of people that die in there too, right?

Carrie: Yeah.

Chris: There are moments, there have been plenty of times where I’m like, “God, why did you provide this book that feels so scary?” But I,, as I learn the difference between exegesis and eisegesis, seeing what,, the difference between seeing what scripture actually says versus seeing what,, through my,, brokenness and my, my personality, my dysfunction,, all those different things, I’ve learned to not just take my initial gut reaction as gospel, so that, that, that’s really helpful.

Carrie: Yeah., we’re coming with our own lens that we often don’t realize that we have. And I, I can think of a, this is a non-biblical example, but I think it shows the point., the analogy is I watched a certain movie, and let’s say it was about some women that struggled in a time in America where there was, like, a lot more racism and,, different things that were happening that were clearly not godly.

Carrie: And I watched that movie and it,, it talks about these women’s struggle to overcome. My friend watched the movie and she said, “I couldn’t watch it all the way through.” She said, “I, I had to turn it off.” And I was like, “Why?” And she was like, “It was just, it was just too much,” like what they were going through was too much.

Carrie: And so she missed the, the overcoming piece and the inspiration, I think because of her own lens and her own probably experience with racism- Mm-hmm… and other things, that,, that was her, that was her lens of how horrible it was versus, hey, there were some things that were, that were overcame here, and there was a- actually, like, the whole point of the movie is to be inspirational, like that you can come o- overcome hardships.

Carrie: Yeah. And we, we bring, like, different lenses to, to the Bible, the lens of how our parents raised us, the lens of how,, that, the really harsh teachings that we have heard in the church,, and, like- You gotta, you gotta get it together. And, and unfortunately, I think like Like, I don’t know. I heard a lot of teachings growing up that it was like, it was almost like you gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps, like the Christian version,?

Carrie: It’s like, get it together, get your spirituality together, stop playing games with God, that type of language. And I– it was like, “Oh, hey, here’s the gospel that saves you, but you get to sanctify yourself.” And I was like, a- as an adult now looking back on that, I’m like, what is that? That makes absolutely zero sense.

Carrie: Like, we have to kill the works-based sanctification and, like, it needs to die. Die. Because we have to be able to say, like, the same God that saved me by grace is purifying me. Like, and leading me to be more like Jesus with that same grace, and that same love, and that same fruit of the Spirit., he’s not sitting there going, “Gosh, Jeri, can’t believe you really messed it up today.”

Carrie: He’s like, “Yep, you need me more today.”? “Here I am.” I’m like, “Yes, I messed up again. Thank you. Like, I need, I need you to, to rescue me once again and tell me what I need to do differently so I don’t fall into the same hole that I keep falling into.” Amen. Cool process.

Chris: Yes. Amen.

Carrie: Yeah., talk with us about, like, just other things that, that…

Carrie: So I think what we’re– Sorry, let me re-say that. I think what we’re learning from your story is, like, there’s been a lot of healing in community, which I think is, is a really beautiful thing. As picture of the church, you’re a pastor. Mm-hmm. We’ve got more people,, not showing up at church than ever before.

Carrie: Look, COVID’s over, y’all. Stop trying to phone it in online, okay? Like, find a local body and get in there. That’s my, that’s my little soapbox. But because we need that, like, face-to-face, like, we need to hug some believers on a Sunday. Like, we need people who are gonna text us a scripture on, like, a Tuesday morning and be like, “Hey, I was thinking about you, and God gave me this verse, so I just wanna share this encouragement with you.”

Carrie:, we need those people that are gonna,,, show up and say, like, “Here’s a meal,” or, “Let me pray for you as you’re going through this hard time.”, and, and even if they don’t understand the OCD piece of your story, they’re just so important for us to have that biblical connection and community.

Carrie: And so I just really encourage people, if you’re not there at that point, like in your, in your walk with God, that you look,, continue that church search, show up, visit,, check, check things out. Yes. Meet some people. Don’t– And don’t just show up and leave and sit in the back row of a mega church and never get in a small group and never serve anything and never,, never get to know anybody.

Carrie: That’s To me, that’s not church either. I’m glad that people are showing up and doing that, and hopefully that’s a step on the front porch to get them all the way into the door.? We would like to, like, keep, like…, I think we just have this distorted view of what, what it means to be, I don’t know, in the church almost.

Carrie: It’s like, it’s not just about being in the building and sitting on the back pew. It’s about really being involved in the community, and that’s where these healing relationships can happen., and, and so I love that about, about your story and this, like, the mental health piece as well was really important for you.

Carrie:, a- anything else that has really helped shift some of the OCD for you? Like, are, are you just more aware of, like, when it comes around now?

Chris: Yeah, there’s been– I mean, gosh, I, one thing I am on is a learner, and so I,, I love…, there are times where I’ve gotten discouraged, and I think in the beginning of my journey, I felt like I had this thing that– and I didn’t know what it was, and even when it was labeled OCD, I,, I can’t tell you the number of men’s hikes or,, prayer sessions that I just thought God’s gonna take it away.

Chris: And once I started to,, embrace that this was gonna be more of a, a road and a journey that I was gonna be delivered through rather than from,, I would say there have been moments and I– that occasionally still resurface where I’ve gotten, I don’t know if jaded’s the right word, but discouraged, felt,, felt moments of despair like, gosh,, life would…

Chris: I can’t even imagine what life would be like without this,, gorilla on my back. But at the,, where I’ve gone in healthier moments and that has been, that has kept me, I, I tend to be a,, I don’t know how many Enneagram followers there are out there. I am a seven and I,, I d-, and hopefully a somewhat healthy seven, so the joyful, the joyful person.

Chris: And, and I do tend to be optimistic and I am, and I am a learner. So,, as I connect to,,, podcasts like yours and,, I’ve, and all kinds of,, different books,, on this,, not just on this subject but,, different apps that help me to slow down,, that help me to,, rest in God’s love.

Chris: I’ve really found that there’s,, a lot of gold to be dug up in this journey and so I’ve found,, like you said, healing relationships and I’ve, I, I don’t know if this is– I don’t know how healthy or prescriptive this is. This is just what I’ve done. I’ve got, like if I told you every… Like I’ve got a spiritual director who’s also, she’s also a licensed counselor but she serves as, as a spiritual director.

Chris: I’ve got a Christian counselor. I’ve got a couple of different men’s groups that I’m in. Like I’ve got so many,, between exercise and worship music and just encouraging voices I have in my life, I feel like I just have tried to turn the volume up so high on,, on the, on positivity, on God’s Word that,, not that it makes the OCD go away and there are still really tough days,, but I just have felt like I just am like, what?

Chris:, I’m, I’m not gonna back down. I’m gonna feel the fear and I’m gonna try to steer into the things that I’m afraid of. Like, honestly, as a pastor, I feel like there, and having kids, like, there’s a lot about my life, like if I were to go along with the OCD, I would sequester myself. If I did what, like just what the OCD wanted me to do, like being a pastor would be the worst idea ever.

Chris: Like, I would sequester myself. I would be alone. I probably wouldn’t have kids. I don’t know that I’d be married, and I would stay away from every environment I couldn’t control. Hmm. So I, I feel like I’ve really structured my life to shortcir- Like the, the OCD, I, I would say I, and I w- I, I don’t think I’ve ever said it like this before, but sort of intentionally, I annoy my OCD every single day.

Chris: I like it. Like my life is structured around annoying my OCD. So,, a- and, and I’m thankful for that. Even though there are days where I’m just like, “I wanna just go along with it, hide alone in a room, stay in a protective bubble, and never interact in any environments I can’t control.” I’m like, my life is structured to,, upset the OCD.

Chris: ‘Cause I fundamentally, I mean, as much as I’ve learned about from the physiological side of neuroplasticity to the emotional, mental side, I’m like,, and even, yeah, I mean, just knowing that Jesus overcame the grave itself, I’m like, there is nothing… And not to be like overly preachy, but I just am like, I fundamentally know that you can overcome this, God.

Chris: And I’m like, “I don’t know how it’s gonna happen, and I don’t know what the process is gonna look like, but I’m not gonna stop putting myself out there.”

Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. That’s so great. I think that’s such a great,, witness for the people who are listening to say, “I’m not gonna let OCD get in the way of my values and pursuing what I know God has for me,” whether that’s parenting or wait, ’cause somebody needs to hear that.

Carrie:, or whether that’s,, sharing the gospel with other people, or whether that’s speaking on a stage. Like, whatever that, that looks like that people know, hey, God’s calling me to this. Just having that sense of,, in righteous, indignant anger of like, “Not today, OCD.” Nope. Like, “It is not happening. We are gonna,, fulfill and walk in, in what God wants us to do.”

Carrie: Well, that’s, that’s awesome., it sounds like,, for you recovery looks like engaging in all these positive things that are gonna be helpful for you, whether that’s,, exercise,, mentorship, and having other people pour into you., being really honest about where you’re at.

Carrie: I think that that’s great.

Chris: Yeah, it’s, it,, it’s, it continues to humble me. Nothing, I, I, I haven’t fully adapted the whole, like, this is the thorn in my side, like,, 2 Corinthians 12. But,, it, nothing draws me to my knees more. And,, I’m not… I wouldn’t say I’m, like, so thankful for that.

Chris:? Like, I wish there were,, I,, but at the same time,, I, it, it is really humbling, and I’m thankful. And I, and I will say, I am thankful for the number of times it’s brought me to the feet of Jesus saying, like,, I think it was C. S. Lewis that said something like, “Some of our questions are like asking God is yellow a circle or a square?”

Chris: Or how many hours are in a mile. And I’m like, sometimes that’s my brain. I’m like, I’m going to God, and I’m like, “I recognize that I am so confused. I’m asking the wrong questions,” and I’m, like, going to the doctor, and I’m like, “I just need you to do whatever it is in my life that you wanna do, and I’ll follow you no matter how ridiculous the road may feel because I fundamentally don’t know what’s wrong with me.

Chris: And so whatever you wanna prescribe, I am open.” And that’s the mentality I try to embrace.

Carrie: Yeah. Awesome, awesome. Well, thanks so much for,, sharing your story with everybody today. I’m glad that you, you found the podcast and- Mm-hmm… got connected., I think it’s gonna be encouraging for others.

Chris: I hope so.