Tag: Christian Discernmen

Carrie: I know that this is going to be an exciting episode for some of you to listen to. We’ve been getting more requests on the show to talk about scrupulosity, which if you’re not familiar with that term, is any kind of religious obsession. I’ve also been hearing from several people who have been going through the course, Christians learning ICBT, or that are seeing me for therapy and saying things like, you know, I used to think that OCD was a voice of God, and now I’m realizing the difference between OCDs voice and God’s voice.

So I thought it would be really great to bring on a licensed minister to talk about how to hear from God.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Heather O’Brien is here. She even has her own podcast called Heal with God. Heather, welcome to the show.

Heather: Yay. I’m so excited to be here. Carrie, I’m looking forward to this conversation. I know it’s gonna be so good.

Carrie: Yeah. We wanna try to tease out, is it God, me, or OCD? Essentially, tell us a little bit about your story and how you got into helping people hear God’s voice and experience inner feeling.

Heather: It usually starts with ourselves. I needed healing. I was going through a lot of anxiety, depression, panic attacks, and the way that I got free was by hearing God’s voice. And so I got really passionate about it. ’cause I’m like, oh, did you know God wants to speak and I wanna just tell the world about it because it’s the thing that sent me free.

And I didn’t know I could get free. I didn’t know I could be healed. Whatever word you wanna use, I feel better. I didn’t know I could feel better. I wanna kind of scream that out. ’cause I was a Christian, even while I had anxiety. I was a Christian while I had depression, sitting on the church pews every Sunday I started learning how to hear God’s voice.

Through journaling, through interpreting dreams at night, which I had dreams all the time, and I had no idea that was God speaking to me. I started getting really passionate about this, and as I got free other people who would come to me and say, Hey, would you disciple me? Would you teach me? And that’s, it’s just kind of disciples, making disciples.

What’s it? The scripture in Revelation that we get free by the blood of the lamb. The word of our testimony. That’s what it’s,

Carrie: that’s great. I think that’s very hopeful for many Christians that I think you can feel so much better than you do right now. Keep pursuing God and pursuing that healing process with him.

Very important. Many of the listeners wonder, how do I know if I’m really hearing from God? There are some things that are very clear in scripture, do this, don’t do that. But then there are other times where maybe we’re making a big decision. Do I choose this school to go to college to, or do I choose this other school?

What ministry does the Lord want me to be involved in, in church and, and those aren’t moral decisions, but we still have an opportunity to be led by the Holy Spirit in those. How do people know or go about making those types of decisions with God?

Heather: That’s good. Even before you started all your examples, I had an example in my mind about this young lady who had applied to go to veterinary school.

And it wasn’t local. She wanted to go, but also she was questioning, is this God, is this okay? Should I go? I’m not really that much in her life, but I had a dream, just a young lady that went to our church and I mean, I was connected with her. I knew her enough to have her cell phone number, but I had a dream about her at night.

And in that dream, it was kind of her and me. I don’t remember the exact dream, but let’s just pretend for a minute. It was something like she got accepted to the school and also my dreams came true when she got accepted. It was like confirmation for both of us in this. And so I reached out to her because she knew some dreams are metaphors.

They’re not all prophetic really gonna happen. And so I’m still, I’m like sifting through it. I’m praying, God is this real. I contact her and I’m like, is there any chance that you happen to be applying for a school? ’cause I didn’t know her enough to even know that she was going through that. And it turned out to be confirmation for her because she was actually in her prayers asking God, is this right for me?

Is this you? And I did have to take her back a notch when I was talking to her. I said, there is this one scripture that I love and I quote, probably almost every day at this point now, but it says. The footsteps of the Godly are ordered of the Lord. And to me that means you can’t really mess up if you are in line with God.

If you’re praying, you’re reading your Bible, you’re asking God to keep you in line, that means like you might take a step out and he’s gonna just kind of nudge you so gently back into the lines. And it’s not even that you sin, like you said, this isn’t a moral issue. It’s like, I don’t think that you can mess up.

I think that you need to ask God, you need to give God permission to close doors that need to be closed, open doors that need to be open, and that’s what we do in our prayer time, right? When we’re hearing God’s voice. Sometimes it looks like we have this opportunity, we present it to God and we give him permission to close door, but okay, he didn’t.

So that’s being led by the Spirit. Sometimes being led by the spirit doesn’t mean you’re hearing a booming James Earl voice. Sometimes hearing God looks like I prayed for this opportunity. Here’s the opportunity. I also gave permission for him to close it if it needed to be closed. And yeah, sometimes we just have to take a faith step because isn’t that the whole thing about Christianity is that we choose to believe in Jesus by faith.

Sometimes we have to exercise that faith muscle and we’re not gonna get the James Earl voice booming down. I saying, yes, I want you to go to the school.

Carrie: Yes. I think that’s really good. You reminded me of a story. I had somebody come in for intensive and was trying to make a decision and had. Really just received this vision from God as we were working together.

And then had told me, well, I had let my friend know that I was coming to see you. And she said, well, I’m just gonna pray that God gives you a vision that to make this decision. And I just thought that that was so beautiful and just so kind of the Lord. I know that that doesn’t always happen for people, but it was just amazing that this person had faith.

Their friend just had incredible faith and was like, well, I’m just gonna pray that God gives you a vision. And then God answered that prayer. So that was really beautiful. I think sometimes people can really get tripped up with OCD about just, I’ve got to somehow make the right decision because I’m going to like mess this up somehow.

What would you say to them?

Heather: I think that’s goes back to the footsteps of the Godly are ordered at the Lord, and I tell myself that sometimes I have to talk to Heather. Like Heather, hey. Footsteps of the Godly are ordered of the Lord. There’s even little things like I’m late. I hate being late to events, to things that I said I was gonna be late to, and anxiety creeps into that, especially when we’re in a hurry.

We’re basically inviting anxiety. Sometimes we just need to rephrase it. If I’m saying the footsteps of the Godly are ordered of the Lord. Then I’m not late. It’s not possible for me to be late, so sometimes we just need to rephrase it back to ourself. If the footsteps of the Golia order of Lord, then is this thought even possible?

Does it line back up with that? I even think about that when I’m headed somewhere in my car. I’m not getting there. At the time, I would’ve liked to, but what did God save me from? There’s sometimes there’s good things behind that, and so we wanna take the narrative and make sure it’s full of the fruits of the spirit.

Because if it’s of God, it’s full of joy, it’s full of goodness, it’s full of love, and all of those fruits, hurry never feels like that. If I messed up, that feels like I’m full of fear. If I can mess up, that even feels like fear. I’m like, I dunno that we can mess up. I think that we can send, that’s not what I’m saying, but I don’t think that we can make the wrong choices and God redirect us.

He is just. And sometimes we just have to believe that by faith he’s going to fix this. If I wasn’t supposed to do this, he’s gonna close the door. And I have actually had that happen.

Carrie: I have too, for sure.

Heather: I’ve had that happen more than once where I’ve given him permission. I’ve said, okay, God, I’m gonna say that yes to this, but will you close the door if I shouldn’t?

Okay. Even like with podcast interviews, sometimes I’m like, eh, I think that this is a good fit, but I’m not sure. I’ve had it where they signed up, but somehow they just never showed up. And I’m like, thank you, God. That just wasn’t a good fit for my show and I know that that was God doing that, right? So I can’t mess up.

I just have to get into that head space.

Carrie: There was a time where when I was looking for my office that I have now, I was really convinced that I was supposed to be in this one part of town. And I mean to the point where I had picked out a childcare place, I’m like, okay, well if I worked over here. My daughter could go over here and I just have to find an office space in this area.

It’ll be fine. And you know, I was praying about it through the process, God, and help me to find the right space of where I’m supposed to be at for you. And you know, the location that I’m supposed to be for the clients I’m supposed to see. I mean, God closed every door. I could not find any type of office space there at all.

Then I started to think, I don’t know. I’m not sure about this childcare place. Is that really where God wants my daughter to be? I started looking in other areas. I said, okay, Lord, maybe this is not it. Maybe I was wrong on that. Maybe this is not where you want me to be. And ended up with the office that I had now and the assistant, I guess, who was helping the guy.

I needed some work done in order to make it work for counseling space. I said, you know, I kind of need like a wall here and I need the A door here and so forth. And she said he’s not gonna pay for that. He’s not paid for anything. And I said, okay. Just went back and just, okay, God, if you want this to work out for me, work it out for me.

If you don’t, then I’ll know it’s not right. And I ended up meeting with the man that owned the office space and I said, Hey, you know, is there any way you could like put a wall here and put a door here and put a lock on this? He said, yeah, yeah, yeah. No problem. No problem. I’ll do that for you. I didn’t have to pay anything.

It was just very clear. Like you said, that was where God wanted me to be and that He provided, he made the way for me to be able to be there. It was just incredible stories. I think those things that we can remember when we start to doubt or when we start to feel like something, oh, this is not ever gonna work out.

Just continuing to submit things in prayer. God ask us to remember in scripture, remember the things that he has done, and sometimes we have to go back to, I call those anchor points. Go back to the anchor points of. Where you saw God work in your life before and know that he’s the same yesterday, today, and forever, and he’s gonna continue to show you and to lead you and guide you.

You talk about balancing the word and the spirit, and so how can believers stay grounded in scripture while also listening to the Holy Spirit?

Heather: That’s good. I think it’s actually vital. I think that if we just read the word, we’ll end up like Pharisees. We’re legalistic where we have checklists instead of love lists.

I love disciplines. It actually makes me feel so grounded. It feels good to have a structure throughout my day. I read the Bible. I’m worshiping. I’m praying every day, seven days of the week. But this is my love list. I do it because I love God, I love others, and I love myself, and it actually makes me feel good.

All that to say that includes sitting in prayer, asking God some questions and listening. And so if I just did the Bible, okay, I’ve had some people in my line of work, and maybe you have to where they’re like, yes, I read the Bible every day, and they’re struggling with sexual sense. This has been a repetitive thing in my past and I’m like scratching my head like, how can you read your Bible every day and struggle a sexual sense?

Like it didn’t make sense to me. It wasn’t until the Holy Spirit revealed, I mean I had to ask them quite a bit. I’m like, God, what is happening? What am I missing? ’cause I told them, read the Bible and they are. And yet they’re still struggling. The problem was they weren’t actually sitting in prayer too.

They were just reading the word. They weren’t reading with the Holy Spirit. It was a checklist. So sometimes even when we read the Bible, when we say, holy Spirit, will you read with me? Will you show me what I need to to see? Where’s Jesus on this page? Where’s redemption on this page? Where is your love on this page?

How does it apply to my life today? And then the prayer time, it can look like we’re just asking God for things. Just ask, ask, ask. But when I wanna hear God’s voice, I wanna listen, listen, listen. I wanna ask a question and I wanna hear what he has to say. That doesn’t mean I’m not interceding for others, I might have time for interceding for others.

I might have specific time where I’m asking, God, help me with this. But then I wanna say, well God, what do you think? And I love this prompt. I love doing a little prayer prompt. It looks like, God, I’ve talked a lot and now I’m ready to listen. What do you wanna say? Both of those together are so important.

They actually equal hearing God’s voice in fullness and in truth. Because if we just hear the spirit, then you’re gonna question, well, which spirit are you listening to? Because according to the word, if I hear a thought, it could be the Holy Spirit. It could be me, it could be another spirit. And I wanna be really mindful of that.

The word even says that if another spirit contradicts this word, don’t listen to it. In other words, it might not be the Holy Spirit. And so if you don’t know the word, how do you know what you’re hearing in prayer time is God. They just have to go together.

Carrie: That’s so true. I think being able to lead people back to.

Scriptures for the clear moral decisions about what you should do or how we should treat other people in our lives. If we’re praying about a relationship, for example, we know that God wants us to be loving, forgiving the gentle way, a word turns away wrath. We don’t want to come at somebody with anger.

We can pray through that, we will, in those conversations have the fruit of the Holy Spirit come out and minister to that other person. So the Bible is really great at teaching us these broad things about how to treat other people in relationships and how to stay pure. But there are many, many decisions that we make every single day that we have the opportunity to really partner with the Holy Spirit.

And then God does give us. Some sense of free will and choice. I like to say that we are sheep in the pasture. There are clear fences around the pasture, but if we eat this grass over here or that grass over there, God is concerned that we stay in the pasture and that we are fed and we are doing things that we’re supposed to do.

So I think we have to get away from this idea that God’s will is some kind of little dot. It’s a very small dot, and I’ve gotta get on it, and if I don’t get on that, God’s will dot, then I’m outside of it and somehow he’s gonna be upset.

Heather: I think he loves our creativity. I help people with business stuff and business decisions and things, and we have a framework, but also I’m like, there’s not just an exec.

You have permission to be creative. Like this is your business and God’s saying this is your life. You have permission to get creative. And I think he also says, well, what do you like? What would you like to do?

Carrie: When it’s a clear something that God wants us to hear. Do you believe that God will confirm that sometimes in another form like someone else coming and speaking something to you?

Heather: I believe it because I’ve experienced it time and time again. But also I ask for it and it is in his word. So you could looking the story of Gideon, God told him something really plain to do. He had an angel come like chit chat with him. It wasn’t like, oh, I just had a dream. Was that God, no. He had like a visitation and he had a really specific request unto God, and we call those fleeces because he set out a fleece in his request and asked God to do certain things.

I have seen that in my life where I feel like God, I think this is you. Sometimes it takes me far too long for me to recognize, oh, God’s trying to talk to me. He’s trying to get my attention, but also he’ll do it through other people. I have people who have dreams for me, just like I had dreams for that young lady I was telling you about the school.

I remember even some really big decisions in my life. I was like kind of questioning, should I go get license with my church or should I go get licensed with under this other guy that I’ve been doing Jesus stuff with? And I couldn’t quite decide. It wasn’t solidified in my mind. One of my friends had dreams.

I had dreams, and I was like, okay. Finally I just had to say, yes sir, because there was a part of me that was not really unsure, but not wanting to do the thing

Carrie: right, that God was calling you to do.

Heather: God validates his word. He wants to be heard. Let’s just be clear. And dreams sometimes seem muddy and they’re like, I dunno what that means.

Well, listen, I would say if God gave you that dream, he wants you to know what it means. And all you have to do is ask. Sometimes you have to keep on asking. Sometimes you have to ask other people who have the gift of interpreting dreams. I’ve had dreams repetitive that it’s like, okay, God, I’m obviously not getting this.

I thought that you meant this, but I still keep having that dream. And he’s like, ask someone else what they think it means. Sometimes we need people to speak into our life. I think that’s how God talks. He doesn’t just talk through his word and your prayer time. He also talks through the body of Christ.

Carrie: Right? I know that there have been times. Where I’ve just texted somebody and I’ve said, Hey, praying for you, or God brought you to mind. I just wanted to let you know that I’m praying for you. And they’ll tell me, Hey, this spiritual battle is going on right now in my life or in my workplace, and it’s just God works through community and you stress.

That as well, like the importance of us being involved in Christian community. And so I always try to encourage believers if you’re not in a church and you’ll find a church of people who are following Christ and are studying the word that you can get connected with and be involved with. Super important.

You talk about like coming into agreement with wise. What does that mean and how can people break agreements with lies that they may be believing about God and kind of step into the truth?

Heather: It’s so easy to accidentally do it. Okay, so like we mentioned a minute ago, our thoughts are not always our own.

Sometimes our thoughts are our thoughts. Sometimes our thoughts are from the Holy Spirit, and sometimes our thoughts are from another spirit. And I had this example come to me when I was coaching this one client. The Holy Spirit gave me a vision while I was talking to her of another spirit standing beside her and whispering to her some things while she was looking in the mirror.

So while she was looking in the mirror and she was thinking bad thoughts about herself, and sometimes this is Christian things and sometimes it’s body image. I mean, it could be a number of things that we get a whisper. Something and we think, oh yeah, that’s reasonable. Okay, let me give an example. That just makes sense.

Oh, so if I’m looking in the mirror and I think to myself, you’re ugly or your nose is just too big, or, wow, you are really overweight, I might not say it that. Nice. Okay. Just what if for just a minute. Okay. What if another spirit was whispering to you that thought and you come into agreement when you say, yeah, I am.

Yeah, my nose is big. Yeah, my waist is too big. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we’re like, that’s totally reasonable. ’cause it seems so true. Okay, so we come into agreement with this thought and it’s a lie. It’s not in the word. Okay? So the truth will set you free. So a will keep you bound. Would that be true? The scripture says truth will set you free.

So is there anywhere in the scripture that God says how he made you was not good? No. He says you it perfect. He made you on purpose with a purpose. He crafted you in your mother’s womb. So specifically you’re the potter and he’s the clay. It’s almost like when we say we look a certain way and we don’t like the way we look.

We’re telling Gotti did a bad job. That makes sense. If we’re telling Gotti did a bad job, then we have somehow come into agreement with a lie. Because that can’t be true. God didn’t do a bad job. That’s ridiculous. We would never say that with our mouth, but we say that with our mind. When we agree to these lies, first, we have to recognize that it’s a lie by reading the truth.

Okay, nowhere in here says that I’m bad, or whatever the thought is that you’re rifling through, right? And then once you recognize it, you have to come out of agreement with it. It really just means thinking the opposite. If I could be real with you. Sometimes we have to forcefully break agreement with it, and sometimes I say it out loud like I need to tell myself.

You need to tell yourself what to think. Sometimes. Sometimes I’m like, Heather, knock it off. And okay, here’s something that some people fight. They’ll say, well, the truth is I am overweight. I could lose 20 pounds. Okay, but is that the truth or is that a fact? Because if the truth will set you free, then that’s not the truth.

It’s a fact that you’re living out, it’s an experience that you are living out. I know this isn’t semantics here, but it’s kind of really important to know that if the truth will set you free, if Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, then we kind of need to use these words in alignment with that. I’m just giving you an example with the weight ’cause I really resonate with that.

I’m sure a lot of people can understand that. So if I really need to lose 20 pounds, instead of saying I’m fat, I could say I’m on my way to losing weight or. I am able to lose weight. I have a few extra pounds on me, and with God on my side, I can do anything. You could arm yourself with the scripture. You could start saying the truth that will set you free because he says, through Christ, I can do all things and so I can lose this weight.

Instead of calling myself fat, I might say I’m at a place where I could easily lose 20 pounds with God’s help. I know that’s possible. That feels so empowering.

Carrie: It does. Yeah. It’s a completely different mindset shift and way of looking at it, which is so huge or important, and I might even say to people talking about being in the process of healing from something, okay, I’m in process of healing from this OCD.

It’s not necessarily gonna always be a one and done process for people to be healed. It’s sometimes a journey. God can heal us instantly, but oftentimes he’s using these situations in our life to mold us, the sufferings, to shape us into who he wants us to be and where he wants us to go. And so that character development part, we can’t overlook that.

And we just say, I just wanna be free from this suffering. It’s awful. I did a, a recent survey of our audience and many of them have been struggling for over 15 years. With OCD and that can come and go and look different in different seasons. Sometimes it’ll quiet down and other times it’ll flare up.

Sometimes they’ll deal with one theme and then another theme will crop up. And we don’t always understand why God is allowing these things, but there’s a sense that people may have believed lies that God is not good because I’m going through this suffering. Or they may be believing lies that God loves everybody else but not me.

These are some of the things that I hear get is punishing me for this mistake that I make. And then I’ll say, is that in line with what the gospel tells you about God? And they’ll say, well, no. I’m like, okay, well we want to align what we are saying that we believe with what scripture is telling us. And being grounded, I find that there are a lot of these little beliefs that people are holding onto.

I shouldn’t even say little, because they’re important theological beliefs lies. That people are holding onto that have typically been shaped by their environment or over their past experiences. They haven’t been shaped and aligned with scripture. And so if they can say, I don’t believe that anymore, that’s not true.

I may say, I feel like that’s true. That doesn’t make it true. Our feeling. Are not always fact. They’re feelings.

Heather: That’s exactly right. And as you’re talking, I’m thinking about Romans 12, two. It says, be renewed in the spirit of your mind. It’s almost like it’s gonna be a continual thing. Keep being renewed in the spirit of your mind.

It’s not a one-time thing. And as you get renewed, you’ll know the good and perfect will and pleasing will of God. It’s a continual process that we’re being renewed in the spirit of our mind. It’s not a one and done.

Carrie: This is good. I know that there’s a lot of probably confusion and I grew up very Baptist and have kind of been yo-yo between the Baptist church and the Pentecostal church at different points.

And now I would say I go to a Bicostal church. It’s, it’s a non-denominational, but that’s kind of how I would refer to it. These conversations surrounding spiritual warfare. And deliverance and things like that is a little bit more on the newer side for me. I know different people have had different experiences in the church with deliverance.

Some of them are negative. Some people are really scared about demons or being oppressed. Can you just talk a little bit to our listeners about like, how do we have a healthy understanding of this that’s based on scripture?

Heather: I think God kind of simplified it for me and I would love to share. The thing is that there’s gotta be a good guy and there’s gotta be a bad guy.

Let me just personalize this in my story, when I was needing a lot of healing for anxiety, depression, and all the things, I actually had a bad guy in my story and it wasn’t the devil. He was a human.

Carrie: Okay.

Heather: Okay. And so when we villainize other humans, it doesn’t work out well for us because then we have unforgiveness and bitterness and sin.

Can we call it what it is? But also in part of my story, I was the bad guy. Okay? So I messed up. I sinned. How could I even, I can’t believe I did that. I’m such a failure, right? I villainize myself in whatever scenario there has to be a bad guy. Just you could think of a billion scenarios. There’s gonna be a good guy, there’s gonna be a bad guy, and there’s gonna be a rescuer.

A savior. And I would say to you, if there’s not a devil in your story, then you have villainized other humans or yourself. I love the scripture that says, our war is not with flesh and blood. To me, that means the bad guy cannot have flesh and blood like we do. It can’t like the skin and the blood inside of a human being means that they can’t be the problem.

And we always have a problem. We have a problem to our story. We have a villain to our story. We have a bad guy. And if the bad guy isn’t the devil. We’re missing it. And isn’t it good news that I’m not the bad guy? Isn’t it good news that my personality isn’t the bad guy? Lemme go there for just a minute, because sometimes we say, I was born this way, and I’m like, oh, that’s terrible news because I can’t cast that out.

Carrie: I can’t change that.

Heather: I can’t change that for you if you were born that way. But Jesus does say, get born again. So let’s get excited about that. Let’s get born again. But if you’re born again and you’re saying you were still born that way, oh, maybe you need to get born again, again. Or maybe you need to realize that there is a bad guy in your story and it’s not you.

It’s another human, but it’s the devil. I think that makes it easier.

Carrie: A lot of what you do is help people pray through that to receive healing spiritually. And as we receive spiritual healing, I do believe that translates to other parts of us physically and emotionally. Like all those parts are interconnected to us.

Our mind, body, our spirit are all interconnected.

Heather: They are all interconnected. I mean, the body, soul, and spirit all go together And there’s so many times when people come to me for physical ailments and we deal with a spiritual issue. Both feel better. They literally feel peace. Sometimes they lose weight physically, but they lose weight spiritually.

Right, because I’m getting rid of that spiritual mess that never should have been there. It’s all in prayer. It’s not in my own strength. It’s God. It’s partnering with God and hearing his voice to get to the roots of the issues. A lot of times we don’t know it. We don’t know our own heart. We need God to show us what we believe.

Even sometimes.

Carrie: That’s very true. Yeah. I think sometimes people aren’t even in awareness of what they’re holding onto. Tell us about where people can find you and get to know you more.

Heather: Well, you’re listening to a podcast right now, so I know you love podcasts, so jump over to Heal With God. That’s my podcast.

You can listen to hours of free training over there, and every third Monday of the month, I have a free live workshop where I do prophetic healing. That just means that I’m hearing God’s voice to get to the roots of the issues. I take you through a three step prayer prompt to get down to what’s really ailing you.

And we actually do live prayer. And so you are not gonna get called on on the spot. Let me just say that. You raise your hand beforehand, we talk. You sign up for the workshop, and then you raise your hand and say, Hey, I would love to get the live coaching. And then we go from there. But if you don’t wanna do live coaching, you can watch someone else get coached.

How cool is that, that you can be a fly on the wall and you can see someone else get healed from anxiety and depression from this ooc d repetitive thoughts. And all you have to do is sign up at Heather O’Brien dot net slash workshop. That’s Heather, OBR, ie n net slash workshop, and I would love to see you there.

We come and meet every third Monday of the month.

Carrie: Alright, awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. I think this has been a great conversation.

Heather: It’s been my pleasure.