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Relationship Obsessions Combined with Scrupulosity Pierre's Story - Carrie Bock

131. Relationship Obsessions Combined with Scrupulosity: Pierre’s Story

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie shares Pierre’s courageous journey with OCD, exploring how childhood fears and religious teachings shaped his mental health struggles and eventual path to healing through counseling and faith.

Episode Highlights:

  • Pierre’s journey through OCD and the compulsion to replay past events.
  • The role of forgiveness in freeing Pierre from resentment and anger.
  • Pierre’s discovery of peace through trusting in God’s promises during anxious moments.
  • The power of grace in liberating from perfectionism and fear.
  • Insights into how faith and forgiveness can lead to personal and spiritual growth.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I’m honored to share the powerful testimony of Pierre, who has experienced both relationship obsessions and scrupulosity. Pierre’s journey began in childhood, with an early fear of sin and losing his salvation, which later developed into intense OCD symptoms. His story is one of struggle but also of profound spiritual growth and healing.

Pierre discusses how his fears initially took root when a family friend read a Bible passage about the sin against the Holy Spirit. As a child, this deeply impacted him, leading to a persistent fear of blasphemy and the loss of his salvation. These fears followed him into adulthood, manifesting as relationship obsessions and religious scrupulosity, including a deep anxiety about remarriage after his first marriage ended in divorce.

Throughout the episode, Pierre shares how his OCD journey intertwined with his faith, leading to a complex struggle between spiritual concerns and mental health challenges. His turning point came when he began to understand that his obsessions were not sins but rather a mental health issue. With the support of counseling, his wife, and a discipleship program, Pierre learned to renew his mind and reject the lies that OCD fed him.

Pierre’s story highlights the importance of understanding OCD from both a spiritual and mental health perspective. It’s a reminder that God’s love is constant, even in the midst of our deepest fears. If you’re struggling with similar issues, know that you’re not alone and that healing is possible.

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you found Pierre’s story encouraging, please consider leaving a review on iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Your feedback helps others find this show and begin their journey toward peace and healing. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Explore Related Episode:

118. How Do I know if this Thought is an OCD Obsession? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript:

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 131. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. On today’s show, we have a personal story of OCD from someone named Pierre. We’re not saying his full name on the podcast or sharing any images of him. For ministry reasons, I wanted to bring you this powerful testimony.

Pierre emailed me a while back about his story, and I thought, this is just It’s so powerful. People need to hear what God has done in his life.

Carrie: Pierre, tell me a little bit about your childhood experience and how OCD showed up for you. What did that look like? How did it all start?

Pierre: I don’t know where to start. I wasn’t a fearful child. I wasn’t really somebody who hid in the bed. I was a bit adventurous and I loved the outdoors and I wanted to play every kind of game, but where is when it started really as a child, we had a nanny, a family friend who just came when my parents were out and she would babysit. My brother and I, for bedtime, she would read the Bible to us, and I didn’t even know that it was not the same to do to read the adult Bible to kids.

She would read out of the page, and one night she just read along, and it came to the story of the sin against the Holy Spirit, which at the time, maybe I was eight or nine, I didn’t understand what was it about I just realized that something was off with those stories. Something I didn’t understand. 

I remember when the next day I left by my schoolmates going to school before me. A few seconds in the corridor before the teacher realized, and she grabbed me. I gave my life to Jesus just in case because having heard a story like this, that you can be in danger of hell, even as a child.

Carrie: So you were scared of God after hearing that story?

Pierre: I didn’t understand. What it was about, I just know it was bad. If I found myself in that situation, it was bad. So I wanted to be safe. I had the sense that I could potentially sleep or fall or lose my salvation or something like that, even at that age. I think that was something I carried with me. I had no idea that I could go to my parents and talk about it.

Carrie: Why was that? Were you afraid you’d get in trouble or you weren’t sure that they would understand what you were afraid of?

Pierre: They would not understand. They would not realize it was serious for me. And I had no idea that it would be just a thing to do. When you’re scared, you go to your parents because they’re important people in your life.

They would reassure you. They would explain things. That’s what I do with my own children now. Anything that scares them, I want to talk it over and make sure we’re on the same page. We understand exactly what’s going on and I don’t let it happen again.

Carrie: But there was some teaching in your church that you had told me, like, about emotions and therapy. So maybe there wasn’t this freedom to be anxious or be depressed or have other certain emotions.

Pierre: I grew up in a Christian family, so that’s absolutely fantastic. I even had the privilege of having my parents, my dad is a pastor, and his dad before him was a pastor, so that’s very good. And the flip side is also, I think, the sense that I had very young that I had to be very careful about my behavior in church and elsewhere.

I wasn’t really allowed to be rough and to keep the honor of the family. I would say, something like that. I was very serious about things I heard in church. That was always my belief that He’s a God and we need to be careful not to offend Him. So we don’t sin, we don’t do bad stuff, we don’t use bad language.

Things I discovered later on in life that I never knew, but that’s things you don’t do either. I would say my church has a Pentecostal background. I grew up in the older generation. When I was a kid, these people were still around. I understand now that they came out of the Great Depression and the Second World War period of time, when maybe there was an upbringing of not showing up emotions.

The phrase I heard a lot was put up a smile on your face. Whenever there is some problem in your life, you don’t talk about it, at least openly. You don’t share your struggles.

Carrie: So that makes sense, probably why you wouldn’t share things with your parents if you felt like it.

Pierre: Yes. I can’t really translate that in English, but something I heard is that a sad Christian is a liability to the church. You’re not sad. If you’re a Christian, you have to be joyful. You have to be crazy about God and everything goes well for you. Because the faithful are blessed or something like that.

Carrie: I think a lot of people still believe that today. Like if I’m a Christian, I’m supposed to have joy, I’m not supposed to be angry, that’s another one.

I’m not supposed to be mad, and I’m not supposed to be sad, just supposed to be happy, joy, joy, joy all the time, and that’s just not reality. Thankfully, we have a lot of Christians in the Bible who weren’t happy all the time and who did cry and who did express emotions and thinking, just thinking about David and the Psalms.

I don’t know how people justify those types of beliefs with scripture. When you shifted some of your beliefs on this later in life, I imagine, was that comforting to you to find those places in scripture where Elijah was depressed and David was really sad? I mean, was that kind of comforting like, Oh, you can be sad and be a believer?

Pierre: Now I know, but there was a time when maybe I was starting to develop what later became a full-blown depression. When I was reading the Bible, only the bad bits would jump at me from the page. I would read condemning verses or things that I wasn’t really expecting. And because I would read the Bible as if God is speaking to me, while he’s speaking bad stuff to me.

Apparently, something must be wrong, I must sin somehow and still have that background of, I can lose my salvation, I can fall from grace, you know, I must be very careful. So if I read something in the pages of the Bible that speaks negatively. Therefore, there is a chance that I need to check my track record of going to church, especially being on time.

That was a big thing. At the time, it was all about what you wear. You are a man, you have a suit and a tie. And if you’re a woman for some time, it would be head covering. A lot has changed in my church for the better, but until maybe 20 years ago, I still remember those things being strongly imposed.

Carrie: Did it feel like there were just when it came to God, there were just a lot of rules? Maybe you’re going to mess something up.

Pierre: One thing I also want to emphasize, it’s me, it’s my own understanding of things. Other people might have not viewed the same Bible. Versus the same way. And I changed my views over time also. And then I remember, and when it all started for me, I wasn’t even sure if I was allowed to go to therapy if it was not an extra scene on top of all the others.

So my dad was the pastor. He was very. Open for therapy. So I learned later on to really go to him and speak. That was a process.

Carrie: Sure. How old were you at that time where your dad encouraged you to go to therapy?

Pierre: I was 30 years old, nearly. If you remember from the beginning of my story, about 20 years, I had carried that basically fear in me.

Maybe going back that we can change that little timing there. I remember because in the church where you talk a lot about Jesus, about the return of Jesus, that’s what you expect in the church. I was taught about the rapture. So as a consequence, even very in my teenage years, if I could not sleep at night, I would go down and check on my parents to see if there was in their rooms. If I hear them snore, that’s okay. The rapture has not opened. I’m okay. I can go back to bed. But nearly every night I would do that. It became sort of a ritual for me.

Carrie: Yes. A lot of checking.

Pierre: I needed to be sure that Jesus had not left me out. That’s one little episode also. What happened to me was about 22 years old. I got married very early and this marriage didn’t turn out well at all. My wife just left me after one year. I came home to my parents a bit like a prodigal son. I’m thankful to them that they didn’t shame me at all, or they didn’t really blame me for anything that happened, as it was before. And so on top of everything else, I would carry that as a label on me that, you know, I’m done again.

I would read everything I can get my hands on about those two things. The big subject would be the Holy Spirit that Jesus talks about, and divorce and remarriage, that is ever a thing that we talk about in church. I’ve gone through every bit of literature in French, in English, in everything, really.

Carrie: Just trying to seek that reassurance that it would be okay for you to get remarried.

Pierre: Every visiting pastor, you know, about his opinion, one got really fed up and told me to just stop. Oh, man. It was too much. That’s the setting because when God allowed me to meet this girl, she is a British lady, and now we’ve been married for about 12 years.

We have two children together and she’s fantastic. I hope she hears that, but when I was considering talking about my feelings about what I really, I wanted to invite her out and we went to McDonald’s the very first thing. So what about me? I’m divorced. I’m the son of a pastor, and I’m not that poster child of a pastor child.

Thankfully, someone in the youth group got her first, and she was away somehow. She told me, I know your story. That was out of the way, and we could just start talking, and we decided that we liked each other. We started to have tea. She came to France to be an English language assistant, and she wouldn’t find a house.

A mom just suggested that she would write the church, the nearest church to her job. They knew someone who could provide accommodation. The email landed at the pastor’s desk and he said, I have two grown-up sons and they’re out. The bedroom is available. Just come. She ended up in my bedroom.

We find out that we have some of the way to work and back in common, we would share that length of a journey on a Tuesday evening and get to know each other a little bit. When I was considering whether we could go further, get engaged, because I was serious about these things, the thought was ever can I, should I, is that something that’s allowed at all?

I would go back and forth. Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. I think that broke my brain over it.

Carrie: This whole time you didn’t know that. I mean, this is kind of classic relationship, OCD mixed with scrupulosity, it sounds like. You didn’t know you had OCD at all?

Pierre: No. It’s actually my wife who found out several years later because when she has a question. She Google’s everything and she found OCD scrupulosity symptoms be like this and this and that. And she said, “Oh, that sounds like Pierre”, but I’m ahead of myself. What happened was that I started to have those thoughts in my head and it was an actualization of my fear that I would blaspheme the spirits.

Just as the Bible describes really a flaming arrow, like a shooting star in my head.  I just couldn’t or I didn’t know what to do with that and they became even more present. I think it lasted about two weeks and on the 31st of May 2010.

I remember the day.  I remember the moment it just broke out. It was just us as a damn. A dam had broken in my head and I was in that panic attack that just could not stop. I was in my own flat. I was grown up. I was independent. I was having my life. I ran back to my parents and eat under the bed. I just couldn’t say anything because I just thought, you know, if I speak it, it will become true.

It would become a true blasphemy. So it was unspeakable. In the real sense of the word, I was feeling like I was burning inside of me. My chest was so tight and I was completely shocked. That’s something I wanted to avoid by all means. Something I’m not something I just wouldn’t dream of and it was all happening again.

I’m describing it from the perspective of somebody who’s read every single verse about it. I just couldn’t sleep at night and I just wouldn’t be awake during the day. So to me, that’s a description of hell.

Carrie: That was anxious all

Pierre: The time for no particular reason and I wasn’t about to blame God because the thing just happened in my head.

The very first reaction of my father was to get an appointment with a Christian counselor. I learned that these guys exist. He gave me something to sleep, and we started talking about my story and everything I shared my fears and I shared everything I could remember about my difficult moments, the divorce, the different hurts that I lived as a teenager or young adult, the difficulty about working in the workplace. I had some difficulty keeping a job.

I think everything feeds the anxiety. Every little rejection, whether it’s true or just perceived, it’s all added. And then when it’s completely, when the hole is full, it explodes and,

Carrie: So how did you come to like that realization that this was a mental health issue versus a spiritual issue?

I think that’s something that a lot of people dealing with OCD wrestle with. Is this a spiritual issue? Is this a mental health issue? Is this both?

Pierre: To me, if it’s a spiritual issue, it needs a spiritual answer. In my case, because I thought the sin was too big to be even forgiven. Just read about what Jesus says himself. If truly this is the case, there is no forgiveness, so there’s no need to go to a spiritual answer. 

Carrie: Makes sense.

Pierre: I had to go around the short circuit, the anxiety to be able to deal with it, to really understand what it is all about. When I realized that it’s not a sin issue because I haven’t actually proceeded to blaspheme the spirit because that’s not what I wanted to do in the first place.

That’s through the reading of all the material that I came across. I realized what Jesus is really talking about. I’m able to initiate my own understanding of what’s happening. I receive a lot of help. Other people’s point of view. But that’s particularly important that people just speak into your life at this very moment, then bring hope and bring comfort that no, you’re not actually seeing the problem, whether it’s mental, whether it’s a disturbance in the brain.

I have no idea. I just know that something happened. And so therefore. There must be a problem, but it has others, and God is not angry at you for thinking whatever comes through the brain.

Carrie: You found counseling really helpful, kind of getting that objective point of view on everything and some clarification?

Pierre: What really kept the balance when I got married to my wife, we moved to the UK and someone in the church just grabbed me and took me to a discipleship program called Freedom in Christ, which really helped me a lot.

It takes really the fundamentals of the Bible in a way that engages the person to see themselves as really, they are saved. They are redeemed, they are new, and they can renew their mind, they can change what they believe about God and other people, especially themselves. They can fight those thoughts that come into their heads, and just not believe them as if they were themselves thinking these things.

It might be the enemy just poisoning their minds, and they can just stand up and say, “No, I don’t want to think these things. They’re not me. They’re not what God wants me to think about renewing your mind.”

I remember one of the sessions was about forgiveness. What they ask you to do is to take a piece of paper and on the column, you write the name of a person and next to it, what they did or what they said to you.

The very fact, and next to it, what you felt about it and what it made you believe about yourself, about God or something like that. And when you decide to forgive this person, you realize that you’re not holding what they did against them at all anymore. 

I have a story about this, if I may. I was working for an old Christian lady. She has a big house, plenty of rooms. She needed a cleaner, but it was a particular kind of lady because she had very strong ideas about how she wanted the cleaning done. We always found ourselves at odds about my hoovering the whole thing at once versus her wanting one room at a time.

I grew very stressed and intense, even as far as spraying every morning that would be okay and that we don’t have that sort of, an argument over how the dusting is done or how the beds are made or something like that, which I find ridiculous. 

One time I was working for her and it all became very, just too much. In my head, I kept just thinking about the past. A lot of things just came up from very long ago. What I used to do to deal with these things was to replay the whole story in my head and try to get myself in a different outcome or be able to say, finally, 10 years after the fact, what I should have said or what I wanted to say to that person who’s now dead, maybe, or gone. I didn’t realize that it had no effect. It just feeds the problem.

Carrie: Yes. It’s a compulsion essentially to replay things in your mind.

Pierre: Basically in the same week, I went through this session on forgiveness. This lady’s name was on the list. The next week, I went back to work and the same story again, and she was not happy about the way I cleaned the room.

I remember just looking at her and thinking, what’s going on? I should be in tears now. I should be completely overwhelmed. And it’s just as if, It’s okay. He’s just speaking what she wants to say. I’m here and we can start talking about these things. I said, “You know what? You’re my employer. Yes, but I’m also your brother in Christ, and you have no right to speak to me like that.”  That was one element, one story when I was really at that moment, taking things. Biblically, I could handle things that I was never able to do before.

Carrie: That forgiveness piece is really powerful. Then almost like it freed you up to be assertive and communicate healthily instead of just holding all of that anger inside.

Pierre: I realized that a lot of what I was afraid of were lies. Lies that I pick up very early about not sharing my problems, about being a good boy, not making a mess, not making a fuss about anything. Things that I picked up wrongly from church. I’m sure that nobody ever taught these things from the pulpit, but that was what I received.

Carrie: You just felt like you had to be perfect. That was part of your conscientiousness.

Pierre: I realized also that I can trust God when he says that he loves me.

Carrie: That’s huge. How did you get to that point? Like, you can trust God when he says he loves me.

Pierre: Well, I want to say I’ve come a long way. I was reading the book of Exodus, the Ten Commandments. When I was in that state of really being fearful about being very anxious. So it’s, it’s a long time ago, but I remember I read it in French. I don’t know exactly how you read it in English. It jumped at me that this phrase is not written as a commandment is written as a promise. So in English, it’s, it does say, you shall not insert the comment, you shall not have other gods, you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not, in my French Bible, it’s written as a future tense, and it changed everything, saying that, by the grace of God, I shall not do these things. 

Of course not. Why on earth would I go and murder somebody? Why would I even dream about cheating on my wife or something like that? Of course, it’s not me, my own self that’s able to do these things. It’s the power of God in me. But the way you read the Bible also informs the way you live.

I remember and, I’m still able to share it with people that came to free us from the rules and to give us life. It’s not about being perfect and checking all the marks so we can actually have a true relationship with God, brothers.

Carrie: I think that’s awesome. What would you want to say to somebody who feels like they’ve been going through this for a long time and they don’t feel like they have a lot of hope or that things can get better or maybe they feel like they’re beyond help? What would you say to that person?

Pierre: I’d be very careful saying, it’s okay, you’ll get over it. You know, I’ve been there before. I know what you feel. Those things are very dangerous to say. But just encourage people to talk about it, to open up, not to keep things inside as a prison. In my notes, I’ve written, uh, OCD is slavery.

It’s like, we chain ourselves with different fears that we have, the lies that we believe. We give the devil an opportunity to keep us down, but in fact, Jesus wants us to be free and to free others. So I love the song, “I’m No Longer a Slave to Fear.”

Carrie: Yes. that’s a good one.

Pierre: Every time I sing it, I change the chorus a little bit. I’m no longer a slave to anger. I’m no longer a slave to lust. No longer a slave to procrastination, anything. I have found those things about myself. Every time I think, every time I worship, every time I meet other people and we start talking about these things, I just jump on the opportunity.

I was those emotions, I was anxiety, and I was in bondage. I’m not perfect. I’m still on the way. I have moments where my wife reminds me that I’m going on a rant and it’s not healthy, but I’m definitely better than I was even a year ago.

Carrie: Yes. That’s awesome.

Pierre: Jesus loves you and he went all the way to die on the cross so that the fear and the anxiety would be dealt with. 

Carrie: The love of God is so powerful for us to focus on in terms of talking about being free, and you’re not the first person that said OCD is like a prison, I’ve definitely heard that from many people, or it’s like slavery, and when we truly understand and can rest and trust in the love of God, that changes things just dramatically in our lives, I’ve seen that in my life, just knowing like, okay, I’m going through suffering, I’m going through a hard time, there’s difficulties, but I know God loves me, and I know that I can rest in that, and if he loves me, and he’s my father, then he knows what’s best for me, and I can trust him that this isn’t the end of the story yet.

I think your story has so many redemptive pieces, even just talking about your wife, there’s probably somebody listening to this thinking, oh I’m never going to be able to get remarried again. I definitely went through that when I felt like I had the scarlet letter of divorce all over me after I got divorced from my first husband.

I just kind of wanted to say I didn’t want this. This wasn’t even something that I wanted. It happened. God brought you another spouse and God brought me another spouse. There’s hope out there too, for people who are struggling to find love and to find compassionate people that understand struggles. That piece is beautiful in itself as well. Your wife’s being patient with you and walking you through some of those challenges that you were struggling with. 

Do you still have some of the thoughts about the obsessions about blasphemy coming back and are those easier to shake off now?

Pierre: I think that this is dismantled right now. I’m not thinking in any shape or form at all about actually blaspheming. That would be a different story if I did. But anything else that really comes and scares me, any thought about finances, for example, anything that Price to tell me that I’m not going to make it I can’t handle the same way why God would let me down is rescued me from so much can take my little person and carry it to something I never dreamt about I would never have known that I would be married and have two beautiful children and if you’ve told me when it happened.

When we got married, we had nothing no money in the bank that itself is a story that I could also share. how God provided everything and also the fact that we are two in the boat so we can remind each other when one of us has a down moment. We can help each other and pray for each other. So it’s not always my wife who shakes me up. Sometimes it’s me. It’s my turn to say, I’ve been sad before. I’ve been there. I know what you feel, but it’s not the end of the story.

Carrie: Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I think it’s going to be encouraging to some other people who are struggling. I know it can be challenging sometimes speaking in your non-native language.

I appreciate you working through the English with us. We have people who listen all over the world, so I know that we have people that listen in the UK and Australia and other places. It’s always nice to hear from people outside the US too, and their stories.

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 Are you struggling in your OCD journey right now? Are you tired of that endless cycle of obsessions and compulsions? I know some of you are dealing with mental compulsions like rumination that just seem so hard to get out of. Please come join me for the Freedom from Mental Compulsions Challenge. It’s a free webinar that I’m putting on. August the 5th at noon central time.

You can sign up at hopeforanxietyandocd.com/challenge. I’m going to be talking with you about how inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy may be able to help you. I’m Super excited to bring the 12 modules of ICBT to you in mid-August. 

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock. A licensed Professional Counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Will Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

130. Need More Than Weekly Therapy? Is a Therapy Retreat Right for You? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie shares the benefits and outcomes of therapeutic retreats, how they are structured, and how to determine if a therapeutic retreat is right for you:

Episode Highlights:

  • The typical structure and process of a therapeutic retreat
  • The use of EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) and EMDR 2.0 techniques to process trauma and reduce distress.
  • Identifying who is a good candidate for intensive therapy and who might need more foundational work before participating in a retreat.
  • Real-life examples of clients who have benefited from intensive therapy
  • Tips for managing your resources when considering intensive therapy versus regular sessions.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I discuss the benefits of therapy retreats and intensive sessions, a service I’ve been offering for about a year and a half. For those who feel stuck in their healing journey or find that weekly therapy isn’t enough, a therapeutic retreat could be the answer. I walk through what these sessions look like, from setting intentions to deep trauma processing using techniques like EMDR 2.0 and parts work. These retreats allow us to dive deeper and make significant progress in a shorter amount of time.

I’ve seen incredible results with clients who have come from out of state for multi-day sessions. Whether you’re dealing with trauma, OCD, or phobias, these retreats provide the space and time to address core issues that may not surface in traditional therapy settings. We’re able to trace present challenges back to their roots and process them fully, often leading to breakthroughs that would take much longer in regular therapy.

If you’re wondering whether a therapy retreat is right for you, I encourage you to reach out for a consultation. I’ll be honest about whether this approach would be beneficial for your specific needs. Intensive sessions aren’t for everyone, but they can be life-changing for those who are ready for deep work.

Thank you for joining me today. If you found this episode insightful, please consider leaving a review on iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Your feedback helps others discover the show and take steps toward their own healing. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Explore Related Episode:

Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript:

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 130. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I am so excited that you are here with us today to talk about “How do I know if a therapeutic retreat is right for me?”

I started doing day-long sessions about a year and a half ago. Since having the podcast, and not being able to work from clients out of state, I have had people come visit me for multiple days and stay locally and come to the office. We’ve seen great results from that. I want to open that opportunity up to more people. To some of you who are listening, know that you can go online to my counseling website bythewellcounseling.com and book a consultation session. I’ll have you fill out some paperwork and we can talk through what makes sense for you in terms of moving forward. And if it doesn’t make sense for you to take the time to do a therapeutic retreat, or I don’t think that you’re going to get good results from it, I will be honest and tell you, that I don’t take people on for these types of experiences who I don’t think are going to have a good result.

Let’s talk about the structure of an intensive session or therapeutic retreat. Clients will come in in the beginning and we’ll do a mindfulness-type activity to settle. If they are a Christian, we will definitely invite the Holy Spirit into that process. It’s so powerful. The Holy Spirit knows exactly where we need to go, and what we need to work on, and if we trust him in that process, even if it doesn’t make sense on the surface, things always go better.

I also really want God to be speaking into people’s hearts through this process, dropping in truths, not just truths that they know in their head, but also that that can permeate deep down into their spirit. into their body, their heart and mind so that they can love God with everything that they have.

Then what we do is we set an intention. The intention a lot of times has already been set ahead of time. We’ll talk about that In the consultation, what is it that you hope to walk away from if we are quite successful here and have a great therapeutic experience? What do you hope to be different or what do you hope to be responding to differently in your life?

Depending on the state that the client comes in depends on where I go next. Some clients come in. And they’re feeling very hopeless, feeling like why is this going to work, I’ve done all these other things, how is this going to be any different, maybe I’m that person who’s the lost cause who just can’t get any better.

I think it’s important for us as therapists to respect whatever shows up in the room. So if hopelessness is there for a reason, if it’s there to protect this person from trying too hard again and potentially getting hurt, then I can empathetically respond to that. And we can usually move from a state of feeling hopeless to at least feeling maybe open or curious as part of the process.

Other clients come in highly anxious because they know they are going to be working on things that they’ve been avoiding. We may have to take a little bit more time to calm their nervous system a bit before we can engage in the activities, and that’s okay. Other clients come in feeling okay, comfortable with the process, ready to go, ready to get engaged and get started. But wherever a person is at on that initial first day is fine. We just work with whatever is in the therapy room, knowing that things are going to shift and change as we go through the process.

Somewhere in that first or second hour, we’re developing a resource if this hasn’t been created previously. The resource is a healthy, adult part of self that can help wounded child parts heal, It’s very significant and powerful for trauma work to get that on board. It helps our brain be able to make shifts to know that you’re an adult now, that things are different. A lot is different than when you were a kid in terms of there being more things in your control.

lessening a sense of powerlessness, while at the same time, knowing when we were children, we relied so much on adult caregivers to meet our needs. Now that we are adults, we can start to learn to meet some of those needs ourselves. And also, we can open ourselves up to allow God to pour in and meet those needs for us.

We have a total of three hours before lunch, so depending on how time flows, what comes up in the beginning? We then are moving before lunch into a treatment process where we’re looking at what memories do we need to target with EMDR. Two pathways that people can go down here. One is they bring in the memories that they know are bothering them.

But another pathway that I often see is people know, okay, for example, I can’t seem to stand up for myself, I can’t seem to set boundaries, or I can’t seem to have any confidence in my life, I want to be able to do things, but I don’t feel good about myself, I feel worthless. And they’ll tell me, I’m not sure where this comes from.

I know that I’ve had some things happen maybe in my childhood, nothing super significant, nothing that seems major, but there’s just something there that I can’t seem to shake and I’m not sure where it comes from. We will take that presenting issue, looking at how it impacts that person in their relationships, in their work, in their social settings, in at home, at school, and we’ll trace that backwards. So there’s a treatment plan process that I do with people. We will go back and we are just allowing that, getting them into that vein of the nervous system through some questioning, allowing them to sit with what’s happening in their body, whatever’s coming up.

If we’re following that nervous system, then God will show us those next places that the person needs to go or bring those memories to mind that come up related to the present issue. It’s important to note that I never dig up stuff from the past arbitrarily. I’m specifically looking for things that are tied to the present issue that are keeping the person stuck in the present right now.

We’re not going on a fishing expedition to see whatever painful stuff we can dig up. No, what we’re doing is saying what’s here right now and what space in the past is stuck and is keeping you from being able to do the thing that you want to do in the present. This is helpful whether people have had a lot of trauma or a little trauma.

If you’ve had a lot of trauma, you may not know what specific things you need to target that are connected to this present issue. You know that targeting everything is going to feel like too much, and we don’t want to do that. We’re not trying to overwhelm your system here. So we have three hours in the morning.

We take an hour’s lunch break in the middle of the day, usually around noon. When we come back at one, we are usually ready to start getting into that trauma processing with EMDR. I found a couple of things that move EMDR along a little bit faster for my client. One of those things is EMDR 2. 0 involves working memory taxation, bringing that memory vividly into the space of the working memory, trying to hold it there while at the same time being distracted by the therapist giving you different tasks to do. It allows your brain to chew that memory up differently and reduce distress a lot quicker.

The other thing that helps people move along in the EMDR process and not get stuck or start looping has been integrating parts work. This allows people to process very painful things with much less distress. Both of these, the EMDR 2.0 and the parts work. It used to be that I would find people were very overwhelmed emotionally when they would tap into these memories. Since I’ve been using EMDR 2. 0 and parts work, people have been able to process without having the intense emotional re-experiencing. This is probably really good news if some of you have done EMDR in the past and you know how challenging it can be and how emotionally draining it can be, but it doesn’t have to be. I’m coming from a space now of doing EMDR for over 10 years, going through the entire process to become the highest level of training you can receive, which is an EMDR consultant.

I have worked my way around EMDR forwards and backwards. I’ve had people tell me, I haven’t been able to do EMDR in the past with a previous therapist or it didn’t do anything for me. They’ve still been able to have good results. There are some times when we go a little bit heavier on parts work because we need to focus on messaging that someone received and we may process through some negative messaging received from caregivers, but we can still add a mode of bilateral stimulation to that.

There are so many directions that you can go in a day-long session when you have the time. For example, with people dealing with phobias, we can look at processing that with something called a future template, similar to imaginal exposure. You’re imagining how you would like to respond to that situation in the future and processing and working through the body sensations that come up related to that feared experience. Some things are easier to expose yourself to in an imaginal sense versus in a real-life context. For example, if someone is afraid to get in an MRI machine, what we can do is have them imagine that process.

I could also play sounds that the MRI is going to sound like. We can look up lots of things on YouTube, and look at pictures. Whatever is appropriate for the person or whatever they’re feeling comfortable with, we can go down some different directions in regard to phobias specifically. We can process obsessions in terms of triggers to obsessions, that feared worst-case scenario outcome, having people sit with what if that did happen and process through the body sensations, emotions related to that, the feared scenarios.

We can have you practice saying things that you want to say out loud, looking at tone of voice, and assertive communication. These obviously are just a couple of examples, but I hope it’s giving you an idea of how much flexibility you have and how many different directions we can go down with those longer time periods and timeframes.

I often find multiple days are helpful for people who have more than one diagnosis. Examples of if they would identify that they have significant past trauma, and PTSD-like symptoms, while also having OCD. I would consider these clients to be some of my favorite to work with, really clearing through the trauma and then helping them with the skills to be able to manage the OCD in the present.

I have found that trauma certainly exacerbates OCD symptoms. Oftentimes, until we clear up that trauma from the past, we don’t know how much that is going to help clear up the OCD or bring it down to a level that is more manageable, where the person can live with it in their day to day life and feel confident in being able to have the skills to manage the obsessions when they come up.

I have named some of them, but let’s talk about what issues are good to cover in an intensive. I’ve helped people with a variety of things. Recent event trauma, traumatic grief and loss, so that if you work through the trauma, then the grief process will be able to move a little bit easier, a little more smoothly. We are not trying to take away anyone’s grief or sadness. We’re just trying to remove the traumatic pieces that keep them from going through that grief process or keeping them stuck.

Helping people with phobias, whether that’s flying, doctors, dentists, or anything medical procedure. I can identify and relate because I’ve had negative interactions with medical professionals. Hospitalizations as a child impacted me later in life when I faced other medical issues or uncertainties. Lack of confidence is commonly something that people seek more intensive or therapeutic retreat help for because it’s such a complex issue. And that confidence can interfere with someone being able to date.

It could be interfering with them getting a job promotion or interfering with their ability to set boundaries. It could be that you have an unhealthy family member who keeps roping you into some of the same unhealthy patterns, and you’re constantly getting triggered by that person while at the same time wanting to maintain a relationship with them.

We work through, what that looks like to heal from the past hurt from this relationship. What does it look like to move forward and have a healthier relationship with someone? You can only control that health from your end. You can’t control the entire relationship’s health. But I’ve seen people be more at peace in stepping back from relationships a little bit or engaging in a different way than they have before.

I find panic attacks to be something that we can target with EMDR processing. The first panic attack, the worst panic attack, how you’d like to be able to go out and not have the fear of having another panic attack. If you have any other issues going on that you think might be appropriate for a therapeutic intensive, certainly hit me up on the contact page.

Let me know what your thoughts are, and a little bit of what you’re trying to work through, and we can certainly always schedule a consultation and talk that through to see if this modality is right for you. Who is not appropriate for a therapeutic intensive if you’re in active addiction? Right now, you’re probably going to need to seek help of some substance abuse treatment.

Obviously, there may be other mental health concerns going on. You may want to find a co-occurring treatment facility where they can treat the substance abuse and the mental health. Eating disorders can be super challenging and you may need some more intensive treatment. If you’re at a level where you need to seek residential treatment, a therapeutic retreat or intensive may not be right for you. That’s something to keep in mind.

Those I’ve found that do the best with this type of therapeutic setting have a level of openness towards the healing process. They believe that it’s possible. They’ve tried other things in the past. They have a certain baseline level of self-awareness. I don’t take people on for these types of experiences that don’t have a connection to their emotions, that don’t have a connection to their body that aren’t sure how to give feedback or express what they’re thinking or feeling. Those types of individuals need a lot more baseline work of mindfulness, of tuning into their own experience, of developing a little bit more self-awareness. And then they might be ready at a later point for a more therapeutic retreat-intensive type setting.

I want to talk to you about other considerations you may have when thinking about this type of therapy. We have three valuable resources. Time, Money and mental energy and depending on how you want to split those resources up in terms of receiving therapy That’s going to help guide your process. Do you have the time to go to weekly or every other week of therapy?

There have been times in my life when I was looking for A grief support group. I was looking at being involved in something like that and I kept running into not being able to find something that was what I was looking for or that would fit my schedule appropriately. I had so much going on with having a very young child at that point in time because I couldn’t find something that fit, and I knew I really did need some type of more grief and loss work to happen, I chose to go to a day-long grief retreat myself. Let me tell you, it was absolutely incredible. I talked about it in a previous episode in terms of my grief and loss journey.

I was seeing a therapist regularly, but something still felt a little bit like it was missing. I had such a great awareness through the process of the activities at this grief retreat that I thought I came there for one purpose, and then by the time I left, I realized that there was something else inside that I needed to grieve that I hadn’t yet. That was what I ended up working on. It was an incredible process that I hadn’t recognized or realized through going to therapy on a regular basis.

In today’s society, many people are busy. I talk to people who are literally running seven days a week and they feel like they cannot add one more thing to their schedule, yet they know they have things they need to work on. Maybe they’ve tried to go to weekly therapy and they end up canceling because the kid gets sick or because work then interferes and says, you have to be over here. They just can’t seem to get that consistent rhythm or momentum of weekly therapy so you have to take time into consideration. You also may have something to work through that has a time deadline.

For example, if you’re pregnant and you’re trying to recover from your first traumatic birth, you’re time-limited on how long you have to receive therapy before you give birth again if you’re already pregnant. Maybe you tell your spouse, yes, we’re finally going to take that trip that we’ve always wanted to take for our 10th anniversary across the ocean, but you’re afraid to fly. Now you know you’ve been avoiding dealing with it, but hey, I need to work on my flight anxiety before I get on the plane. We talked about time as one of our resources.

Now let’s talk about mental energy. Usually, when I tell friends or family that I do day-long sessions with people, the initial response is, “Whoa! That’s a lot of therapy.” That sounds like a lot. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that thing on social media that’s like, Choose your heart. Staying married is hard. Divorce is hard. Choose your hard. This is one of those, I would say, choose your hard because I know people that come into weekly therapy that say, Man, it’s hard to unpack this stuff and pack it back up and then go be with my family or it’s hard to unpack something and then feeling like I’m just starting to get hit the emotional nerve or I’m just starting to get going on the processing then the 50 minutes are up, and unfortunately, your brain is going to continue to chew on things. That’s just what it does. It’s trying to find resolution.

When you have a longer therapy session, you’re giving your brain the gift of time. Yes, six hours of therapy in a day can be a lot. I’m not going to lie to you or sugarcoat that. You may want to take a nice, long, happy nap afterwards. However, living with pain day after day is also exhausting. Let’s talk for a moment about money.

On the surface, a therapeutic retreat is more expensive. However, when you remember that we’re actually saving time by condensing the process, I believe that people save money in the long term. I remember one client that I did a one-day session with, and She had so many memories that she just needed to process through and unpack that was holding her back in her day-to-day life, things that she couldn’t get off her mind.

It was a very rare sort of intensive in a lot of ways because the targets she essentially picked and knew what things were bothering her. A lot of times we have to go back and do a process and dig for those, but she knew what she needed to process. I remember we just went through the day and I was like, okay, what’s next? She would process it and go to the next memory. Okay, what’s next? At the end of that session, I told her this would have taken you a year in therapy to get through all of these memories. I honestly believe that. But her brain was just so ready and her nervous system, she wanted that healing. She was open to it and we just were able to go through it so that she didn’t have to keep carrying around the pain of those memories over and over and over again.

I can tell you from the therapist’s perspective, I enjoy the longer sessions because we start to see a thread running through very quickly. In all of these different memories, you experienced this, and that is the piece that has followed you around for your whole life. Today is the day that God wants to break that chain for you. Today is the day that you can say, I don’t have to live. Under that lie anymore, I don’t have to live with that limiting belief. It stops today. There is not anything else that lights me on fire more than that, guys. It’s so incredible to see the work that God has done in people’s lives over these longer sessions.

I know for some of you, this episode really landed and you resonated with what I was saying. If that’s you, I just really encourage you to reach out on bythewellcounseling.com and click on the contact form. I would love to get in touch with you. Or you can go on there and schedule a consultation and we’ll talk more about if this is right for you.

Do you want to be the first to know what’s happening on the podcast? podcast. Join our email list at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. We have got some free downloads on there, and you have to actually click the download from your email to sign up for the list. So make sure you take that one extra step.

Thanks so much for listening and I’ll be back next week.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed Professional Counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

127. Do I need therapy? How to Know and Why Summer is the Best Time! with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores the signs that indicate you might need therapy and why summer is the prime season to begin your mental health journey

Episode Highlights:

  • How to recognize signs indicating you might need therapy.
  • The benefits of starting therapy during the summer months.
  • Practical tips for evaluating your mental health and well-being.
  • The advantages of intensive therapy sessions for busy schedules or ongoing issues.

Episode Summary:

If you’ve been asking yourself, “Do I need therapy?” or if someone has suggested it, this episode will guide you through key indicators that therapy could be beneficial. We’ll discuss how feelings of overwhelm, difficulty managing daily tasks, or strained relationships might signal that it’s time to seek professional help.

Therapy is a powerful tool for managing mental health issues like anxiety and OCD. If you’re experiencing symptoms such as persistent worry, obsessive thoughts, or a general sense of burnout, therapy might be the right step. In this episode, I’ll also share why summer is an ideal time to begin therapy. With a potentially lighter schedule, this season offers a unique opportunity to focus on self-care, build new coping skills, and address underlying issues before they escalate.

If you’re considering therapy but feel uncertain, I encourage you to listen to this episode and take that first step toward healing. Therapy is not a sign of weakness; it’s a proactive choice to invest in your mental and emotional well-being. Whether you’re looking for a few sessions to gain clarity or more intensive work through a therapy retreat, I’m here to support you.

Explore related episodes:

Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 127. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Today, we’re going to talk about, “Do I need therapy? How do I know if I need therapy?” Maybe someone in your life has been telling you, “Hey! You need to go to therapy”. Let’s look at how you might really need to know if therapy could be a good option for you. Also as a bonus, “Why summer really is the best time to go to therapy?” 

Number one, maybe you’re not functioning in your day-to-day life as you normally do and as you would like to. Let’s look at different domains of your life. How about home? Are you sleeping? Are you able to complete activities of daily living, as some people call them?

Things like showering, getting out of bed, feeding yourself, going to work, or doing your day-to-day activities if you don’t go to work. You want to look at how you are functioning. Are you able to do some of these things? Is it a lot harder maybe than it used to be? That might be an indication that there might be some kind of mental health situation going on for yourself.

If you’re having to drag yourself out of bed every morning just to get going or to function, you find that you can’t sleep at night because you’re super anxious, just worrying about things all the time, that might be an indicator that you might need to go to therapy. What about work or school? That would be another area we might look at to see how you’re functioning.

If you are going to work, all you can think about is what’s going on at home in your household. You’re going to work, maybe you’re completing tasks, but there’s absolutely no joy. You just feel dry. You wonder,” Why am I even in this job anymore?” We all go through different processes with our various jobs or careers.

It might be super stressful and you’re having a hard time either dealing with the work stress or the home stress. Maybe you find that you are late to work on a repetitive basis because you keep checking all the door locks and you keep checking to make sure the oven is off and the curling iron has been unplugged, that might be an indicator or red flag to you, like, “Hey, this OCD ritual behavior is now starting to impact my work life.”

Maybe you have to do presentations at work and you get super nervous speaking in front of people. Maybe you have different job responsibilities than you used to have. Usually what happens when people come to counseling is something has changed, something has shifted. Maybe your work has been going fine, but you’re scared to fly, and then you find out work wants you to go to one to two conferences a year that are out of state. And you would have to fly because it’s not close enough or feasible enough for you to drive there and back. If your boss is coming to you concerned, like, “Hey, I’ve noticed you’re here, but you’re not really here.” That might be a good indicator that it’s time to get some help. Three, how are you functioning in your relationships? What about people that you live with at home? Whether it’s a roommate, or whether it’s a spouse, whether it’s your kids, do you find yourself frequently getting irritated at those people, or constantly getting into conflict or arguments?

Maybe there’s no conflict, sometimes people just get tired of fighting, and then there’s this underlying tension. Or lack of communication, so it can go either way. Sometimes the climate of the home is just we’re not talking at all, and that’s not healthier than people who are yelling all the time. Those are both in states of unhealth where.

Something needs to be done in order to have more peace at home. So you want to look at your relationships. Do you have friendships? Do you have people that you connect with on a regular basis? I know that we’re all busy, but at the same time, we all need some sense of community and connection. I know a lot of people struggle with anxiety or struggle with getting out there and socializing.

If those are challenges for you or things that are keeping you from engaging in relationships, maybe you want to date, but it absolutely terrifies you. I went to therapy for that many years ago before I met my husband. That was a thing for me because I had been through a divorce and I was hurting and didn’t want to get hurt again. At the same time, I’d done a lot of healing and felt like I was ready to move forward with my life. So if your relationships or inability to engage in a relationship, a future relationship that you would like, are impacting you, I would encourage you to consider therapy as an option. What about your relationship with yourself?

We all have a relationship with ourselves. Some people are super self-critical, they never have any grace for themselves, they never allow themselves to make a mistake, and in those situations, I would say that that’s pretty unhealthy and can keep you from doing things that you want to do in your life, can keep you from taking risks, it can keep you from taking a break and a much-needed rest.

You’re constantly pushing yourself. Usually, we have these two parts inside. One is pushing us towards good things, and one is self-sabotaging that in some way, shape, or form. The Bible calls this your flesh, sin nature, and then your spirit nature. If you’re a Christian, how are you seeing those things in your day-to-day life?

Are you engaging in self-destructive behavior, such as self-harm, addictive behaviors, drinking, or overusing, prescription drugs, those types of situations? How are you in relationship with yourself, with your soul, your spiritual connection to God, all of those pieces are really important. And then lastly, maybe you just need an outside third party or objective point of view on your current life situation. I remember there have been times where people have come to see me for one session just to ask, Is this normal? Usually, people who are asking the question, Is this normal? Typically what they’re experiencing is normal. I won’t say that that’s always the case, but a lot of times it is people who are going through situations such as grief and loss.

Sometimes you can have very conflicting emotions in grief and loss situations in a divorce situation. In a parenting situation, there can be conflicting emotions, and it’s hard to navigate on your own or tease out. Sometimes we feel like we’re supposed to be feeling a certain way. We say, Is this okay? Is this how I’m supposed to be feeling or is this a normal response? A lot of times if we haven’t experienced that before, or we don’t know someone else who’s been through it, or we don’t feel like we can actively share this with other people in our personal life, sometimes it’s helpful to have that listening ear to bounce those ideas off of.

Maybe you just feel like you need some different ways of approaching situations or other people in your life. Maybe you’re trying to learn a particular relationship skill, such as setting boundaries. That’s an important one. We’ve talked about that on the podcast before. We’ve talked about the importance of setting boundaries.

What is a boundary and how do I set one? So go look in our show notes. We’ll link to those episodes. Maybe you are wanting to go to therapy to learn some specific strategies for dealing with OCD. That would be a great opportunity for you to go to therapy. I think a lot of times people have these stigmas.

We have hopefully broken a lot of those down in our society, but they still exist in some circles. Like, if you go to therapy, that means something, like, seriously is wrong with you. That’s not the case. Sometimes you may only need to go for a few sessions. You may just need to get some objectivity.

I’ve had people come in that have told me that they’ve had those types of experiences. I’ve certainly had those types of experiences with clients where, They just kind of needed a little boost in the right direction or some problem-solving, and then they were able to go on their way. Maybe you do feel like you need a lot more, and that’s okay too.

Wherever you’re at, there’s no fear or shame surrounding getting help for yourself. Why is summer the best time to get therapy? This is a secret from the inside world of therapists. Summer is often a slower time for therapists. The reason is that people are genuinely feeling happier. The sun is shining outside, the kids are out of school, and there’s less stress in the home because we’re not having to maybe run them around to as many activities.

I don’t know. That depends on the family and the age of your children. You could be just as busy during the summer as a school year, but you may not be scrambling to find the red shirt to wear on red shirt day. But people are usually going on vacations during the summer. You may think, I’m feeling pretty good this summer.

Why do I need to go to therapy? If we’ve been through some of the other things and you know that you have stuff to work on, you know that you want to build in skills, you know that you want to be able to learn certain things, when you’re not stressed, that’s the best time to learn new skills. What I have seen happen over and over and over again is people will know that they have trauma to work through. Things from their past that they know are affecting their relationships in their day-to-day life. A lot of times, what they’ll do is they’ll wait until they hit a crisis point to get counseling. Hey, there’s no wrong time to come to counseling. If you’re in a crisis, absolutely come to counseling and get what you need, but if you know that there are some bumps in the road and you probably want to get help before it gets worse, that’s a great time to initiate therapy. Do not wait until things get super bad to feel like you have to then come in at that point. The summer is an awesome time to build in learning experiences.

You will probably get on the therapist’s schedule faster or a little bit easier. Keep that in mind. We really get super busy when people are like back in the swing of school around September, or October, things can be really slammed or in between holidays, sometimes holidays are busy, sometimes they’re slow, it just depends.

A lot of people will tell you, yeah, during the summer, therapists may look different. They may take more time off. I don’t know, but it may be the best time for you to come to therapy. And if you’ve ever thought, I don’t really feel like I have the time for therapy to go once a week to unpack stuff and then pack it back up, especially for clients who have experienced a lot of chronic childhood trauma, those are some of the clients that I find I work the best with.

What we have found works amazing is for them to come for an intensive day, for them to come for a therapeutic multi-day retreat so that they have the time and space to unpack some of those things in the past without having to go to therapy Unpack the past, pack it back up, and keep doing that over and over on a weekly basis.

Meanwhile, while crises are going on, oh, this situation happened with this family member, and now I need to take time away from trauma processing to process that, or this other situation happened, and now we’re focused on that instead of focusing on the past situations that are contributing to present responses.

If you have ever thought about maybe I just need to take some time for myself, maybe you’re a busy professional, you work a lot of hours, maybe you just say, I need to block off a day or a few days for some self-care, get a kind of a therapeutic retreat situation happening for me. Please contact me either through the podcast or through my counseling website, bythewellcounseling.com. I would love to explore that option with you a little bit more. Until next time. I hope you found this episode helpful, and I will see you again next week. 

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. you

126. What if I Abuse My Child? Postpartum OCD Story with Sarah Brown

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie interviews Sarah Brown about her experience with postpartum OCD. Sarah shares her struggles with intrusive thoughts and compulsions after childbirth and how she found ways to cope and heal.

  • How Sarah identified early symptoms of OCD throughout her life, even as a child.
  • Sarah’s initial experiences with therapy and the challenges of finding appropriate treatment.
  • The impact of postpartum OCD on daily life and motherhood.
  • Practical advice for family members on how to support someone dealing with OCD, including managing reassurance-seeking behaviors.
  • Practical advice for new mothers who may be experiencing similar challenges.

Related Links and Resources:

Home

Explore related episodes:

https://hopeforanxietyandocd.com/92-harm-ocd-in-pregnancy-sent-me-to-the-er-with-author-amber-williams-van-zuyen

Transcript:

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 126. I’ve been slowly starting to tell you about our rebranding process that we’re going through on the podcast. I’m super excited to tell you that I’m in the process of interviewing different web developers who are going to help bring part of this new branding vision online.

I hope to have all the pieces in place this fall to share with you, and I’m excited to talk with you about all that God is doing through this process of helping me refine it. the show to be focused on what I believe he wants me to go in the direction of. If you’ve been following along with the podcast, you know we love personal stories, you know we’ve talked quite a bit about postpartum, anxiety, depression, and OCD.

So if you’re experiencing any of those things, we definitely want you to know that there’s hope and that you’re not alone. You may feel alone inside your head with a lot of different thoughts that can be quite terrifying at times. Our guest today is Sarah Brown, and she is going to candidly tell us her personal story of dealing with postpartum OCD.

Welcome, Sarah. Tell us a little bit about your story. When did you start to notice yourself having symptoms of OCD?

Sarah: I would say actually growing up over the years I would have symptoms like as a child there’d be times where I’d really fixate on something and feel like I had to confess it and even through my teenage years and then into my marriage.

I mean, I remember dealing with this even over the last Winter Olympics, a situation where I just felt like I had to confess it and now I see that that’s probably definitely OCD starting to like seep through the cracks. So I guess throughout my life.

Carrie: Were there thoughts in your head that you were confessing to other people that you were having?

Was that how it was showing up? Or things that you had done and you were like, Hey, I did this and I just want to let you know, or want to apologize for it?

Sarah: Yes. Things like that. I would say as much as a Christian can say this insignificant lying, somebody asks you a question and you respond off the cuff because it’s, maybe it’s an embarrassing question and you say, Oh no, I never did that, or I never would have done that. Years later being like, “Oh, I have this unconfessed lie in my life when you probably don’t need to confess that to that person.”That’s how it would come up. I did have, I remember a few persistent thoughts, phrases that were shameful that would run in my head and I was like, “What is going on?” Maybe about other people’s children or things like that. I think my anxiety level was not high enough to cause me to fixate on it which would cause it to be a recurring issue.

Carrie: So it was a little bit easier to allow those to move through, it was strange or unusual, but then you didn’t get as stuck on them as you did later in life.

You said that the postpartum OCD really set in and peaked when you weaned your fifth child. Tell us about that experience.

Sarah: I had dealt with anxiety through my motherhood, but never really did much to treat it, but I think I can look back and see patterns now. So anyways, after weaning her, this was one of the first times within my motherhood that I was not pregnant with another baby.

She was my fifth baby, so we decided to take a break. I weaned her right before Christmas, and then my anxiety started to ramp up in February and in March. I think it was probably like a hormonal situation because later on, I found out that my progesterone was off and my periods were long. I had PMDD where I was just extremely anxious right before my period would start. I think it was all working together to bring on what I would know later as postpartum OCD.

Carrie: What you’re saying is you had your kids pretty close together and so almost your body was used to being pregnant and then when it wasn’t, it kind of messed with your hormones or things got out of whack.

Sarah: I think that it brought to light my hormones being out of whack.

Carrie: How did that show up for you? Were you having OCD thoughts about your children? 

Sarah: It started, the whole onset when it got just super bad was my husband and I were watching a TV show and there were subtitles on the screen because more than half of the show was in a different language. Some spy show.  Every time the words, thank you, would show up on the screen, I would see a different word. It wasn’t actually seeing it. It was the word like, was that there or not? Was that in my mind? Why was that there? Of course, it was this word associated with something that was shameful for me that we continued to watch this show over the next couple weeks. Every time somebody would say thank you, it would pop up. As my anxiety went up about it and my shame, I felt like I couldn’t talk to anybody about it because it was just shame inducing. It just made the whole situation worse and worse. And then it came to a head. One night, I had what I like to think was probably just a couple hour panic attack, where I started having one particular intrusive thought about molesting my son during a diaper change.

I could not get rid of it. It was just over and over and over and over. It felt real. I could see him laying on the rug. I could see the rug itself and the sunlight coming into the room and I couldn’t get the thought out of my head. I couldn’t sleep, had high anxiety, and couldn’t eat, which is when I finally went to my first therapist to try to find some help.

I said I have no idea what’s going on. I promise I don’t want to do this, but I have this thought I can’t get out of my head. And with that were other thoughts right in that same time. Also, like, fear of, what if I’m homosexual? Where did that come from? It was just so out of the blue. I feared I would just be out of control of my body and that I would do something to hurt my family and I wouldn’t be in control of myself, like I would basically go insane. I had all of these kind of recurring things, but the molestation thought was the worst one. And it hit right, as OCD does, it hit right home with my only son. Of course, this very precious, all of my children being precious, but I only have one son. It would be on this particular child that my thoughts were centered.

Carrie: Okay, that makes a lot of sense, actually, just this in this terms of OCD being attached to things that you value. I imagine that you probably hadn’t heard maybe of other mothers having these types of really scary thoughts.

Was that something that you felt very isolated in or like, “Okay, I can’t tell anybody about this.It’s so horrible.”

Sarah: Extremely isolated. In fact, I only knew of one other person in my realm who I didn’t even know, knew of, an author’s child, who had grown up with OCD, and to be honest, the thought of a diagnosis of OCD was just, I couldn’t even carry that burden at the time.

I thought, well, maybe it is OCD, But I couldn’t even look it up because everything was so heavy. I thought I was going crazy and I really had fears that if I told somebody I was going to be locked up, taken away from my kids, those were like my core fears of being misunderstood in the whole thing. So very isolating.

Carrie: I think that is a common fear that I’ve heard from other mothers too is all of your worst fears seem like they’re going to come true. I’m going to be taken away from my kids or they’re going to be taken from me. I’m going to be determined to be somehow like an unfit mother because I have all these thoughts that I don’t even want that are just there out of nowhere.

That’s an interesting time period too After you’ve been married for however long and have five kids to all of a sudden have thoughts about what if i’m homosexual? That’s a pretty good indicator that’s an OCD thought just completely like out of the blue. Were that one any easier to dismiss or what did it just seem really bizarre? Why is this coming now?

Sarah: It was bizarre. It was easier to dismiss, I think because my brain was, look, the bigger threat here is obviously to your wonderful kids that you love. That was where it was. Even I would have other thoughts right around the same time, like, God isn’t real, I don’t believe in him.

This is coming from a person raised in a Christian home who never ever doubted the existence of God. And suddenly, I would pray, or I would read my Bible, and, which I could hardly do, everything was so raw. I would just have this thought, I don’t believe that. And that’s coming from somebody who had believed this, from a child.

I think because the very worst thoughts were about my kids, I think those ones hit home the worst and therefore the other ones kind of receded back and they weren’t so terrible. That makes sense.

Carrie: That does make sense. Tell me what that process was of getting help for you.

Sarah: I went to my first therapist for two sessions and she said, look, you’ve got to get a grip. I realized that this person was not for me. Six months later, after struggling so much, I mean, I was reassurance seeking all the time.

Carrie: Did that therapist not know about OCD? The therapist, was it kind of like a Christian based therapy?

Sarah: She was a therapist and she did do EMDR with me for the first session and maybe even that second session that I went to, but it definitely didn’t flag OCD for her right away.

Carrie: Interesting. Okay.

Sarah: Which I think is unfortunate. I know that there is a statistic out there that says takes like six years to get diagnosed.

Carrie: Sometimes longer, kind of depending on how long, what age people started at. It’s hopefully that number is getting less, but I mean, I’ve heard, yeah, even higher to get a diagnosis.

Sarah: Yes. I really hope that goes down for people because I can’t imagine suffering for six years with it, especially because your compulsions tie you into it. It just reinforces it if you’re doing those compulsions. I think because maybe my compulsions were invisible, which is trying to pick it apart, reason with it, make sure in my head.

Carrie:A lot of ruminating? 

Sarah: Yes, tons. I mean, that’s what feeds it for me. I think maybe because it’s not like I was walking in there and saying, “Hey, I feel like my child’s going to get sick and die if I don’t wash my hands 100 times a day.” Maybe it would have been easier for her to see that it was OCD. I suffered for the next six months with it, and finally it got to the point where I was having obsessions about suicide which, I would say, intrusive thoughts. I’d see my deck, we have an upper deck and a lower deck, and I would glance up at it while playing outside with my kids and I would see myself hanging from it. That is a very hard thought, but the worst one was just an intrusive thought of sitting in my car in my garage, turning on the car, and Going to sleep.

I think what made it hard to distance is because I was so measurable, but at the same time, very afraid that I would ruin my life in some respect or another. Either I would hurt my kids, I would leave my marriage, or I would just kill myself. There are so many avenues to ruin your life, but all the worst-case scenarios.

All of them, all of them, so many. I finally having a hard time with that thought. I don’t know how long I dealt with it, maybe two weeks. Finally I told my husband I’m having to start. He got mad at me. Not mad, but like a righteous indignation. He said, “I can’t read your mind. You have to tell me that you’re struggling.”

I said, “I know. That’s why I told you.” The next day, I decided I’m going to go to therapy again. I’m going to try it again and I’m going to take medication until I’m better. Coming from the background that I came from, it was very hard for me to accept. The idea of taking medication, but it did help tremendously. And then to come back around to your question, I didn’t get diagnosed with postpartum OCD until a year and three months later after the onset, when I finally found out, Oh, this is actually something that other moms struggled with on a regular basis. I found that out through a perinatal therapist and started EMDR and kind of talk therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy with her.

Carrie: Okay.Awesome. I’m curious, was there specific traumas that you were trying to process with the EMDR or just working on some skills to get to a more relaxed space in your body?

Sarah: The trauma that I was trying to work through definitely had to do with thinking that I had caused myself to have OCD. Like it was my fault. Oh yes, definitely. It’s still, even today, sometimes something that haunts me, and I just have to respond back. Maybe it is, maybe not. Just leave it there. But I found out about sex from a, another like five-year-old girl when I was about five. We were just playing in our neighborhood, and it was a conversation I happened to walk in on, and anyway, it kind of opened this curiosity about it over my childhood.

When I started having intrusive thoughts as an adult or even as a teenager, I always thought, well, it’s because I was so curious, or I wired my brain to want to think about this type of thing. It must be my fault type of thing. EMDR did really help me to work through how I couldn’t have helped being in that situation.

It was not, it was not, and I couldn’t have helped being curious, very natural for a child to be curious. There could have been different responses from my parents, but they just didn’t know how to help me work through these things. EMDR did help with that trauma processing.

Carrie: That’s great. And then at some point you did some work on the rumination piece. You did ERP therapy, exposure and response prevention.

Sarah: Yes, I did about three months with the perinatal therapist and then I felt a lot better for the next six months, seven months. I was doing great. I really could even process it. I would think about OCD here and there throughout my day and it wouldn’t bother me, it wouldn’t suck me in or drag me down.

It really started ahead of the month where it just surged back up again. And so I started doing some research and I had just heard all over, reassurance seeking is bad, and ERP is the gold standard. I just spent some time praying about it, really felt God leading me to find a a Christian therapist because my other therapist was not a Christian.  Well, she was Catholic, let me say that.

Carrie: There were some faith differences between you and your first therapist. 

Sarah: Yes. With my perinatal therapist, she and I had different viewpoints about some things. We had some differences in our faith. I really felt the Lord leading me to seek out a therapist that had a more similar viewpoint about Christianity and worldview because with OCD, you want to be sure about so much, right? I didn’t feel like God was leading me to find someone who had the same viewpoint as I did. So he graciously provided someone who was willing to do ERP with me. I actually did all my sessions virtually. I did that for two months and it was extremely helpful and has given me so many tools that I still use today.

Carrie: Awesome. Tell me about some of those things that you use kind of in the moment when those obsessions come up.

Sarah: The first thing would be to recognize what it looks like for me. I actually have a notebook where I write down when I realize I have a theme that’s coming up. Themes for me would be like hurting my children, ruining my life, ruining my marriage, disappointing my husband in a way that would like leave him as.

It’s in a place where he is at a complete loss as to what to do in despair. Other themes there would be bringing shame on God’s name, God not being who he says he is, God planning evil. I would really say like the first thing that I learned from ERP is to just know your enemy. So then when you have a new thought that’s coming in.

You can go back and say, “Oh, look, it falls under. I’m going to ruin my life. Look at that. Happens to be OCD. It’s very sneaky.”

Carrie: It’s very helpful to identify, even though it may be like a different obsession, like there may be different wording that OCD throws at you, like you said, it’s still under that theme of like, “Oh, I’m going to ruin my life.” That was one of the things that I had shared kind of in a recent episode about, is this thought OCD is like, well, does it fit in with your themes that you usually have? Now people can jump themes, but typically there falls in things that they’ve heard before.

Sarah: Yes. The second thing I would say would be Learning how to respond, learning how to not engage with an intrusive thought or, you know, an obsession.

You find a phrase that communicates to you, like, challenge. So mine is, bring it on. Whenever I have something that triggers me, I might be changing a diaper, I might be bathing my kids, I might be sitting in church, somebody’s talking about God’s sovereignty. And something will trigger it, and I’ll just say, bring it on.

Another one is, maybe, maybe not. I’ll be triggered by the same thing, and it’s like, well, maybe I will, maybe I won’t, maybe I will ruin my life. And then, another thing would be to kind of chase it back down the alley that it came from. Not just, maybe God is real, maybe He’s not, but it would be like, maybe He’s not real.

Maybe I’ll waste my whole life doing things and worshiping something that’s not even real. And then when I die, I’ll just be buried in the ground and my whole life will kind of have been a waste in that way. Which is not true at all. I don’t believe that. But I’m taking the fear and I’m ramping up the anxiety, choosing not to engage in the desire to pick it apart.

What that’s doing for my brain is saying, this is not a valid threat. She’s actually thinking about it and working through it. Well, I guess we don’t need to bring that back up anymore. Yes. Another thing, script writing has been so helpful. Script writing is, you know, Basically writing a short story about your own personal nightmare.

Again, I have a notebook I keep it tucked away so that it’s not accidentally discovered by my children, but it has several of worst fears and so it might look like this and I’m just going to give la try to give a more mild one But they can be very hard to write down and I think the harder they are to write The closer you’re getting to helping yourself because OCD doesn’t back down.

It gives you really hard, terrible thoughts. And so you have to get right back at it, but it might be like, I trusted God my whole life, but he’s actually not trustworthy. If he really was trustworthy, he wouldn’t let that things happen to children. I cannot trust God, he is a liar. Of course for a Christian that sounds extremely blasphemous, and it is, however, what you’re doing is you’re taking that intrusive thought that says, I can’t trust God, what if I can’t trust him?

Well, if you really could trust God, then he should be more trustworthy, like he should not let bad things happen. And instead of being sucked into the desire to pick it apart and theologically and every time this thing comes up. By reading this script several times and going back to it when I have this fear come up again that God isn’t trustworthy, it helps to shut that down in my brain.

Carrie: After reading it so many times, you feel internally calmer. Basically, your brain gets bored with it. It’s kind of like, Oh, yeah, I heard that story before. I don’t really believe it now. You feel like it becomes less real, like when you’re in the OCD zone, whatever you want to call it, bubble zone like mode.

Everything feels really real that’s not real, and so then I wonder if, as you’re reading that story, it becomes less real and more like a story?

Sarah: It does. It becomes more like a story. You do definitely get bored with it. That’s exactly what my therapist would say. And initially though, it does increase anxiety and you will have the itch to perform the compulsion.

So for me, I would write down my script and then it would be hard after a therapy session not to assure myself, Oh, but I can read the scriptures and it’ll say that you can trust God and that he’s perfect in all his ways. Instead, you choose not to do that. If it feels like a deep need, Then that’s like your OCD saying, okay, this is, you need to do that compulsion to feel better.

So choose not to engage with it. And over time reading that script, your brain gets bored with it. After many times of reading the script, you start to see, oh, look, there’s the core fear or look, there’s my theme or wow, I can totally tell that’s not true by just reading it over and over again.

Carrie: Yes.I think that’s the struggle Mitzi Van Cleave a long time ago talked about. She researched that and did a lot of those on her own kind of over and over. I’m researching imaginal script writing and I think that’s the hardest part for Christians is feeling like, okay, I’m putting in something that’s not true maybe for myself or, or reading that over and over again. I think it’s easier, I don’t know if easier is the right word, but maybe to take the kind of maybe, maybe not stance at times.

It’s like, okay, why is it that I’m needing like assurance or needing to ask somebody a reassurance on that right now? I’m curious how this has impacted your spiritual journey with God. I know you talked a lot about struggling with that commitment to take medication until you got better, the commitment to kind of, sounds like you had to work through a lot of shame related to even having OCD in the first place. How did all of this interact spiritually in your relationship with God?

Sarah: I would say first of all, God was so gracious to me. I did find myself, especially through the first six months, a lot of tears, a lot of wondering, like, God, when are you going to show me the way out? This is just so awful. But now I look back and see that he was doing, like, really deep healing work in so many ways that I would never have imagined. trade out. I’m just so thankful for the way that he’s healed me. I did spend a lot of time, especially in the first six months, wondering when God would heal me or help me to get better or lead me out of it.

Now I see that he was doing a lot of great, deep healing work in many facets of my life. I think the greatest thing that I’ve learned through it all is just the voice of the Holy Spirit being different from the voice of OCD, a calm and gentle spirit. There’s a podcast that you did, FAQs about OCD, that was very helpful for me in just remembering that God spoke in a still small voice and it wasn’t a driving force, you have to do this right now.

I think it’s easy for a Christian to get OCD mixed up with the Holy Spirit. Definitely helped me with that. And I would also say, just God is so faithful to bring me to the other side where I can mother my children and be around them all day long because I’m a homeschooled mom of six and know how to deal with my intrusions. I don’t have so many anymore now that I’ve done exposure therapy and there are seasons where I have to come back and do more just to kind of, sometimes I get out of practice, but I’ve just found God to be so faithful to me in taking just what was so shameful and turning that into glory for me. Just that whole beauty for ashes thing about how God redeems, he takes terrible, awful things and he makes them for good and then he’s using it to help me even, I’ve had a couple friends that. Since I’ve shared my story, they have said, I’ve had the same thing. I had no idea it had a name. I’m just like, so grateful that God would ever use my story to help somebody else, maybe not have to suffer as long as I did. God is faithful.

Carrie: I think it’s very redemptive too. If people feel like they’re in. An unmanageable place with OCD. It’s very hopeful and helpful for you to say, yeah, these thoughts come into my mind every once in a while, but you can get to a place where you’re still functional. You’re still able to raise your family.

You’re still able to do things that are important to you. You’re not where you were before. And I hope that that gives someone hope, maybe who is in that sad, dark time of am I ever going to get out of this hole? Are things ever going to get better? So I hope that people hear that today. There’s hope on the other side of what they’re facing and what they’re dealing with. I wanted to ask you one more question, because we do have some family members that listen to the show. We do have some friends and people that are trying to be helpful to a loved one who’s suffering. What was that conversation like with your husband when all of this was going on?

How did you help him help support you in terms of like reassurance seeking and things like that? Was that hard for him to know? What do I say or how do I respond?

Sarah: I would say, first of all, it was so hard for me initially to share that I was having these thoughts. I didn’t even know that these thoughts had a name, intrusive thoughts.

He was very gracious when I did tell him about it. He didn’t freak out like I expected him to. But, I would say, if a family member shares with you that they’re having some deep dark thoughts like this, and you know that this is not true of their character, Just listen with an open heart and mind, and I would say support them in their journey to find healing, whether that’s through therapy, which they probably will definitely need, or medication, which might be a really helpful way to support them.

Another thing I would say with the reassurance seeking, my husband is good at this, saying, well, Sounds like you need to just face your fears, but it can also translate into motherhood. I have a child who deals with some, a lot of anxiety over sickness. So whenever we have the stomach bug running through our house, she says, Oh, I hope I don’t get sick, mom.

And I can pray with her and reassure her all day, but that’s empty reassurance. And really what’s helpful for me to do is say, Well, Eden, maybe you’ll get sick and maybe you won’t. But we’re going to make it through it and I have actually seen it with my own eyes that it’s kind of helped to, it increases her anxiety, but that releases it later on.

It helps her brain to deal with it. I would say the family member is constantly coming to you for reassurance. Try your best to lovingly not give them that reassurance. Ask the Lord for wisdom as to how you can support them without giving them reassurance because it does feed OCD.

Carrie: It’s a hard balance to strike, right? Being supportive. 

Sarah: It’s so hard because I did tell my mom at one point. I said, the best thing that I can hear is just like, you’re a good mom, and you’re really doing a great job. And she’s the most supportive person in the world, so she will say that. But then my OCD says back, she doesn’t know these thoughts.

What if I really am a terrible mom? So it really doesn’t help. Or maybe you say it once. I really believe that you are a great mom. But you don’t need to say it 20 times to them. I would say, look, I’ve already told you that. I’m not gonna tell you again. It’s a hard balance. It’s really hard.

Carrie: Yeah. Kudos for all of you who are supporting your loved ones who have, are dealing with OCD.

Maybe if they need to hear it, they’re doing a good job. Sarah, I know that you told me that you went through a mentorship program as well that was helpful for you. Can you tell us about that?

Sarah: Yes. My perinatal therapist recommended Postpartum Support International, I think it’s psi.org, but they have a peer mentor program, which basically, if you want support, you can interview with them and tell them what you’re dealing with, which they recognize that there’s postpartum OCD and postpartum psychosis and all of these different diagnosis And they’ll basically hook you up in a relationship with another mom who has dealt with the same thing, who has decided that they want to mentor someone going through the same thing.

They’re not a Christian organization by any means. They have all kinds of support groups out there. Like I said, I’m a Christian. I would like somebody who has faith to be my mentor, and they hooked me up with somebody who had, like, faith. And that was helpful, obviously, because if you’re a Christian, you want to be careful who you get your support and your counsel from, but the great thing about that is that you can have somebody who’s gone through the same thing, if you don’t know anybody else, which chances are we all know somebody who’s been through it, but we’ve never shared our stories because they’re just so embarrassing, but it hooks you up with somebody else who’s been through the same thing that can be a support to you.

For the next three to four months, you either have phone calls or you text. You stay in communication and that person is just there to be a support. That was a helpful resource for me. Now I do mentor other women through that same program.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think that that’s really great. Sometimes, you know, we need somebody to just come alongside us who understands and there’s things that they’re shared experience that we don’t have to explain. Yes. Thousand percent. All right. Thank you for sharing some of these really vulnerable thoughts that you had with us. I think that that helps people because there’s going to be other people who listen who go, Oh, I’ve had that thought too.

Maybe I’m not a horrible person because I’ve had that thought. Maybe this is OCD talking. So thanks for sharing.

Sarah: You’re welcome. I do hope that it brings somebody so much hope, even if it brings one person steps forward to getting help, that will be God getting the glory for that.

Carrie: Hey, if you want to be in the know here on the podcast, you’ve got to get on our email list, okay? These are the people who know about the latest happenings even before they hit the airwaves. It’s super easy. You can go to hopeforanxietyandocd.com/free. Put your email in to receive any of the free downloads. You do actually have to click the download in your email when you receive it, otherwise you won’t be subscribed.

So that’s an important tip that you need to know. Until next time, thank you so much for listening. 

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

125. Help For When You Can’t Stop Googling Everything! with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie talks about the downsides of Googling too much, especially for those with OCD and anxiety. She shares how seeking reassurance online can actually make things worse and offers tips for resisting the urge to Google.

Episode Highlights:

  • The risks of excessive Googling, particularly for those with OCD and anxiety.
  • How seeking reassurance online can escalate anxiety and spiritual confusion.
  • The importance of accepting uncertainty as a part of finding peace.
  • Recognizing the urge to Google and making intentional choices to step back.
  • Practical strategies for resisting the urge to Google and maintaining mental well-being.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Episode 125 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD! I’m Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor based in Tennessee, and I’m thrilled to have you with me today. If you find yourself caught in the habit of excessive Googling, you’re not alone. Many people with OCD struggle with this same issue, and in today’s episode, we’re diving deep into why this habit can be harmful and how you can start to break free from it.

Are you constantly Googling for reassurance? Perhaps you spend hours reading articles, watching videos, or searching for answers online. While it’s okay to research things in moderation, excessive Googling often exacerbates anxiety and leads to confusion rather than clarity.

We’ll address the cycle of reassurance-seeking that many people experience. Just like asking others for validation in relationships or at work, Googling is a way of self-reassuring. But instead of finding peace, you might end up trapped in a maze of conflicting opinions, especially in spiritual matters.

It’s crucial to recognize the urge to Google as a potential sign of OCD. When you feel a strong, anxious need to find an answer immediately, it’s often a sign that OCD is driving your behavior.

Remember, not everything needs an immediate solution. It’s rare that Googling will provide you with the certainty you’re seeking. Often, the answers to your questions are not readily available online, and learning to sit with uncertainty can be an important step in your healing journey.

Tune in to discover how to manage your Googling habits, set healthy boundaries, and find peace without relying on endless searches.

Explore related episode:

131. Relationship Obsessions Combined with Scrupulosity: Pierre’s Story

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 125. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a  licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. 

I’m glad that you’re here. I just want to remind everybody, we have some exciting news, we have some revamping of the podcast that is going to be happening this summer and hopefully, we will have some new artwork, a new website, and a new name. For more information about that, make sure to hop on our email list so that you can be an insider and be the first to know. It is hopeforanxietyandocd.com/free. We’ll get you any of those free resources and to be able to be put on our email list.

This episode is for some of you that really struggle with your relationship with Googling. Maybe you are Googling what you feel like is everything or you’re spending hours and hours reading articles, hours and hours researching things on YouTube. If you haven’t figured this out, this is not incredibly healthy for you or your mental health. It’s okay to research things in moderation, it’s okay to look into things. But there is a point where it becomes unhealthy and creates more and more anxiety. Googling is a common OCD obsession that I see in clients that I work with, and when I first started working with OCD, It was one of the red flags of maybe this person needs some more assessment if they are Googling all of the time.

Maybe we need to start assessing them for OCD. Googling is a way that people seek reassurance. You may have seen, or heard of reassurance seeking in OCD, where you’re asking someone in a relationship, “Hey, are we okay right now? You’re asking your boss, am I doing everything the way you want me to? You’re asking doctors like, am I going to be okay? Are you sure that I’m going to be all right? Googling is a way we have done to self-reassure, to find out from some article, or expert video that everything is going to be all right, or we’re finding for or against what we think is okay. 

Now we want to talk about how this can send you down a bunch of different rabbit holes where you see a bunch of different people’s opinions. It can cause you, especially in the spiritual realm from what I see with clients is it can cause you to become more and more spiritually confused, like, “Okay, well, this person about this scripture says this, and this person over here says that. You can get stuck on who is right, and who’s wrong.

If this person is saying this, does that mean I need to be doing that? If that person is saying I should stay away from seeing movies that are rated PG-13, does that mean that I’m a bad Christian if I go see this movie over here, the latest film? If this person over here says I should only listen to Christian music, does that mean I’m a bad Christian if I listen to secular music? What it does, the reality is, especially spiritually. It leaves you confused and causes you more disconnect from your actual relationship with God. Your relationship with God needs to, there’s a balance here. I’m not going to say it’s based a hundred percent. on just you and God because I do believe based on the scriptures that Christian community is an important part of our walk, that we can lovingly correct each other when we’re outside of bounds.

We need to just be very guarded and cautious about the people that we allow to speak into our lives. We need to make sure that they are aligned with the Word of God and our beliefs and understandings about the character of God. We don’t want to go too far off the rails and be following someone that is using obscure scriptures to make a major life change point.

Certain people may be convicted about some things. that you are not convicted about, and that is okay. Back to Googling and spending lots of time on YouTube, you need to be careful about that urge, so it starts with probably some type of obsession, and then there’s an urge to get on Google. There’s an urge that like, I need to know, I need to have this answer, I need to have this settled. What OCD is telling you is that you need to know and have that answer settled right now. That’s what you need to be cautious about. It’s not bad to know information or to try to research, but when there’s a strong, anxious, emotional urge that says you have to know it right now, go on and Google this. That’s probably OCD telling you or urging you to do those things. Then you can sit back and you have a crossroads, a choice at that point. Do I pick up my phone? Because now it’s so easy for us, we don’t even have to go to a computer anymore. We just pick up our phone. We can voice search in there.

We just say, “Hey, look up this for me.” We can ask it all kinds of questions. We don’t even have to touch our phones. I mean, people have Alexa in their home or they can say, “Hey, Alexa, look this up for me.” It’s so so easy for us. 

Be intentional. Maybe you need to leave your phone when you feel that urge, leave your phone in another part of the house and literally walk away from it or walk away from your computer. Make intentional decisions not to get on those things when you’re trying to go to sleep because that is going to activate your brain in a way where you’re trying to problem solve and figure everything out right now Here’s the truth that we can sit with it is very very rare that we need to have a solution Right now that we would need to Google Maybe there is a solution right now like in an emergency situation where We might need to call 911.

We might need to tell someone to stop doing something. We might need to walk away from a situation. None of those involve googling. A lot of times the things that you’re searching for are things that are hard to know right now. In this present moment, or you’re trying to find certainty about a specific situation that you’re dealing with, instead of sitting with, maybe the answers to your specific situation are not on the internet.

You’re trying to find other people who have been through similar experiences. I have done my fair share of Googling, especially when it comes to medical experiences. I did a lot of Googling when I was pregnant with my daughter. I had some various complications. I wanted to know, was she going to be okay? Was I going to be okay? Ultimately, that Googling gave me some information, but it really didn’t give me certainty. 

That’s what you’re wanting to know is, can Googling actually give you certainty? No, it can’t. It can give you more information, but can it tell you what’s gonna happen 100 percent of the time? No. As you’re learning through this process of dealing with OCD, part of that is learning to know, Hey, I don’t have 100 percent certainty. What’s going to happen in my experience? I didn’t know what it was going to be like to give birth to my daughter. Even though that was my first and only child, other people have had vastly different birth experiences, even who have had multiple children.

Just because you’ve had a child before, that doesn’t mean it’s going to go exactly the same as it did the last time. Googling about it can give you some broad strokes, some general ideas, but it’s not going to tell you the specifics of your situation. Keeping that in mind, you’re wanting to know, what is it that I actually need, and can Google actually provide that? Most of the time, the answer is a no. 

You may, if you do need some legitimate information, but you are struggling because you know that you’re going to spend two hours on it, It may be something where you ask someone else to get you, like, one or two articles to read that are informative, that is from a healthy, good source, not just something that someone obscurely wrote that’s about two pages down the search engine. A reputable source where you can gain that information without feeling overwhelmed by all of the information that is out there. Typically, we do not have to consume as much information as we believe that we need to consume. You do not have to look at all different sides or angles or videos. You can glean some information from one or two things and then allow that to be the information gathering and moving on.

If you were going to Google, you would want to examine for yourself, “What is it that I am needing to know?” That’s one thing. “What am I actually needing to know? What am I hoping to gain from this? If I’m really Googling just to reassure myself, Or just to get some sense of, like, obscure certainty that’s out there.” Then you need to put the phone down, put the mouse down, walk away from the computer or phone, and say, okay, I’m going be okay even if I don’t get the certainty right now. I have to sit with some of the unknowns that are in my present experience about the future. Typically, it’s almost like we’re trying to get Google to help us figure out the future and be able to have some false sense of control. I think that’s what OCD is trying to tell you that you can have. You can have some false sense of control if you just get a little bit more information about this. Maybe you’ll understand it. Maybe you’ll be more confident in your decision making. Maybe you’ll know what to do.

There may be times where you gather all the information and you don’t know what the right decision is exactly. I had to make a hard decision about whether or not to be induced with my daughter and that was tough for me because I didn’t want to. Looking at all the information and then being able to say, okay, well, at some level, I have to make a decision and so many times I see people with OCD being concerned in a perfectionistic way about making quote the wrong decision or feeling like there’s only one right decision to be made in the situation.

Sometimes life is about praying and waiting for the peace of God to steer us in the right direction. And sometimes we have two okay options that are not in violation of our spiritual nature or things that, they’re not moral decisions to be made. And sometimes we just need to go with one of those, and that may be really hard for you or feel scary.

You may not feel like you have the confidence to make those decisions. That means there’s a little bit more inner work that needs to be done within yourself to be able to say, “Yes, I can make decisions. It’s okay.” That’s a thing that all adults do. Sometimes we are not sure of ourselves and sometimes there’s just a decision to be made and we have to stick our neck out and make it. Sometimes it’s okay, it works out well, sometimes it doesn’t. That’s a part of our life. 

OCD wants you to believe that somehow you can have this absolute certainty if you have an abundance of information. More information typically does not give us more certainty. It can actually lead us to more confusion, especially if we find conflicting information.

Look at your past experiences with Google and see how they have turned out. Sometimes people will tell me, “Well, I looked this thing up and it actually relieved my fear or my concern.” I found out that it’s very unlikely that this scenario would happen. If it was just something like that and then you stopped and you were able to let it go. If it’s something where there’s a lot of gray area and you’re Googling about it more than once or you’re almost looking for new information on it, Is that contributing to your mental health and saying no to OCD? It Doesn’t sound like it. I would encourage you to take some steps to be able to prevent yourself from going down that rabbit hole so often. As you do, it may feel uncomfortable at first, but you’ll notice that it gets easier and easier and easier the more that you resist that urge to Google. It truly is an urge, there is a feeling, you know. associated with it, but also you can say no to OCD and not give in to that urge to Google.

Hopefully, this helps some of you who are struggling with this area and the Googling. 

124. What to do When Compulsions Become Habits and Routines

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores how compulsions can evolve into habits and routines, especially within the context of OCD. She shares insights on how these patterns can impact daily life and offers practical advice on breaking free from their grip.

Episode Highlights:

  • The progression of compulsions into habits and routines.
  • The impact of compulsive behaviors on various aspects of life.
  • Strategies for identifying compulsive behaviors and understanding the motivation behind the desire for change.
  • Techniques for developing awareness of compulsive actions and acknowledging engagement in rituals.

Episode Summary:

I’m Carrie Bock, your host and licensed professional counselor based in Tennessee. Today, we’re diving into how compulsions can evolve into habits and routines. If you’ve been managing OCD, you might have noticed that compulsions start small but can gradually develop into extensive rituals.

For instance, you might begin with a few simple actions before bedtime, but before you know it, these actions can stretch into a 15-30 minute routine involving checking locks, windows, and appliances. This isn’t about typical bedtime routines but rather compulsions that grow more demanding over time.

Similarly, rituals before leaving the house can become time-consuming and interfere with your daily life. You might find yourself repeatedly checking things, which can delay work or social engagements.

Here’s the deal: If you recognize these patterns in yourself, the first step is to avoid self-blame. OCD can be sneaky, and what starts as a small request can balloon into an all-consuming ritual. The key is to acknowledge the issue and decide why you want to change it. Whether it’s reclaiming time for loved ones or personal care, understanding your “why” is crucial.

I encourage you to listen to the full episode to gain insights on managing these rituals effectively and to learn practical strategies that can make a real difference in your life.

Check out related episode:

https://carriebock.com/podcast-breakdown//118-how-do-i-know-if-this-thought-is-an-ocd-obsession-with-carrie-bock-lpc-mhsp

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 124. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Today, we’re talking about when compulsions become habits and routines. 

If you’ve been dealing with OCD at all, you may notice that compulsions start out a certain way, but then they just develop once you do them so often, or you do them in certain situations or scenarios so often then, they eventually become routines, rituals, habits, however you want to say it. For example, people may have certain things that they feel like they have to do before they can lay down and go to sleep at night. Here’s the problem with OCD, it’ll start out with like,” Ah, just do this one or two things before you go to bed, and you’re like, “Okay, that’s not that big of an ask,” and next thing you know, you’re doing this.It’s like 15 to 30-minute routine and ritual stuff, and it’s all OCD functionally related. I’m not talking about normal things that people do to get ready for bed. It’s like checking the locks a certain number of times or making sure all the windows are closed and the doors and that the oven’s off and all of a sudden it becomes this whole thing.

There may be some similar rituals that people have about leaving the house. I have to do these specific things before I can leave the house. The problem is that it may interfere with getting you to work. It may interfere with getting to social functions or other things that you need to be at because you keep going back and keep checking and looking at things.

Your rituals may involve things like cooking, cleaning, or the trash, and maybe washing your hands a lot during those types of rituals. First, I would say, if you notice, “Okay, Carrie, yes, what you’re talking about, I’m dealing with some of those things.” The first thing I would say to you is don’t beat yourself up. You didn’t get here overnight. OCD probably was like a little demanding, and then a little more demanding, and then a little more demanding, and next thing you know you have this whole giant ritual. You Just to take out the trash. It happens. It’s sneaky like that. We don’t want to beat yourself up or be in a place of shame.

If you’re identifying like, “Oh, I have these things that I need to change because now it’s gotten to a level that feels out of control for me.” What I would say is to identify the compulsive habit, routine, ritual, whatever you want to call it that you want to change and why you want to change it. It’s important to know why you want to change it. Maybe there’s something that you want to use that time for instead. You realize I’m being robbed of time that I could be connecting with other loved ones in my life.

I’m being robbed of time that I could be using to for self-care exercise. Maybe your why is that you realize OCD is taking way more control in the reigns over your life than you want to give. And you say, “You know what? I don’t want to fulfill OCD’s demands anymore. I can’t stand this no more.”

Now, if you recognize yourself in the middle of this routine. You develop awareness even over that you’re doing it. Some of you may just kind of check out and you’re just going through the motions and that’s what you don’t want. You don’t want to check out and go through the motions.

You want to recognize like, “Okay, I am thoughtfully choosing to engage in this compulsive ritual right now.”  Instead of just it being like muscle memory for you, we all have that if we do things over and over and over again. Eventually, we don’t have to think about that we’re doing it. There are many tasks involved in driving that you don’t think about just because you’ve driven so much and it’s become a routine.

You know when to check your mirrors, when to push the gas, when to push the brake. When you’re going through this compulsive ritual, you’re going tell yourself, “Okay, I’m choosing to engage in this right now.” Maybe you can’t stop it right away and that’s okay so that you step by step know what you’re doing.

The first step is to really even recognize and slowing down. “This is what I’m doing and I’m identifying to myself, even if to no one else, I’m identifying to myself that this is a compulsive ritual. 

Now, like I said, number one was, you’re not going to beat yourself up for it, but then when you get to the next kind of phase, You can plan to somehow mess it up. If you are telling yourself you have to do something a certain number of times, maybe you start by doing it. The ideal is that you wouldn’t engage at all, but that feels really hard or too big. You say, “Okay, well, I’m going to do this maybe one less time. If I normally do it three times, I’m going to intentionally mess it up and do it twice.”

Also know that OCD is going to be really irritated about that. It’s probably going to be disruptive and tell you it’s not going to feel right, and it’s not going to feel okay, and you have to be able to tell yourself that that’s all right, that this is part of the process of saying no to OCD, is that it’s going to get upset, just like boundaries with anyone.

You set your boundary with OCD, it’s going be mad, it’s going to push you back, and it’s going make you feel uncomfortable. Let’s say, it’s okay, this is how I’m getting out of this brain obsessive compulsive loop. That somewhere in that process, I have to intervene and mess that, that loop up. Every time I go around the loop, it gets stronger. And because that’s ingrained in your brain, You can’t just say no once or twice and expect it to be gone. You have to consistently be able to work through that in a way. If you usually say your part of your ritual is pulling on the doorknob, maybe you leave that part out. Maybe you make sure the door is locked, but you don’t pull on the doorknob.

If you have mental compulsions, make an intention to not do them perfectly like you would normally do, or not doing them until they feel right. Subtract something until you get to a point where you say, “Okay, I’m going to completely disengage from this activity. I’m not going to do this anymore.” 

Make that an experiment, maybe see, so if I don’t do my entire ritual before I leave the house, are things still going to be okay? I may not feel like they’re okay, but are they still going to be okay? You’ll probably find that nothing bad happens that day if you don’t do it. It’s okay, but the idea is that if you can’t stop the compulsion right away, try to see if you can somehow mess it up or delaying the compulsion. Maybe you tell yourself this is not really as workable for bedtime or something like that, but if there’s something that you’re doing immediately, like A lot of times I’ll have clients who are confessing many, many times throughout the day.

They’re confessing stuff. They’re not even like taking a pause to know if it’s a sin or not. It’s just like, “Oh, I had a thought. I must confess that. Oh, I had an experience that maybe might have been a sin and I’ve got to confess that.”

One of the things I’ll tell people to do in terms of delaying is say, okay, why don’t you take some time either in the morning or at night and be intentional instead of just repeatedly confessing everything, be intentional about what do I need to confess today? Stick it to that time period. If you don’t even remember it, or the Holy Spirit doesn’t bring it to your mind, it probably wasn’t important enough for you to confess. That’s okay, you can let those things go and not have to be stuck up on them. You’ll probably find that you’re confessing a whole lot less. Does that mean that you’re less spiritual? No, it means that you’re being present and intentional with God with your spirituality to be able to say, okay, like I want to have a relationship with you. I don’t know if you could imagine having a relationship with anybody else where you were constantly saying that you’re sorry. That does happen sometimes with people and usually they’re saying sorry unnecessarily after a while. Pretty soon people aren’t really hearing the apology anymore. All I’m hearing is I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. It’s like wait a minute do you even know what it is you’re sorry for anymore? 

Think about that relating that over to your relationship with God you want those times where you are confessing To be meaningful for you, I hope that this clarified some things of if you’re going to get out of something like an obsessive compulsive loop, you have to be so aware of it and so aware of the trickiness that OCD gets you wrapped into.

If you’re not aware of those things, it’s really hard to intervene and make changes. So many of the times we’re going through life, we’re just going through the motions, we’re just doing things, we’re not thinking about it. Mindfulness is something that I teach my clients that really helps you to be able to slow down, be intentional, be in the moment, be present, to be aware of what’s going on.

For those of you who are trying to make some intentional changes to your routines. I hope that this information was helpful for you. You can always find us on hopeforanxietyandocd.com. You can click on courses to find out more about the mindfulness course there. We are winding down on time to sign up for the OCD summer sessions that you can find at my counseling practice, bythewellcounseling.com. That’s an opportunity for you to learn this summer. You don’t have to be in Tennessee to participate. We’re going to have some webinar series to cover a variety of issues. I hope to see you there. 

119. ICBT as an Alternative to ERP from the Client’s Perspective with Crystal Propes

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this week’s episode, Carrie interviews Crystal Propes about her journey with ERP therapy and her transition to Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT), highlighting its effectiveness from the client’s perspective.

Episode Highlights:

  • Insights into Crystal Propes’ personal journey with OCD, including her experiences with various treatment approaches.
  • The principles and techniques of ICBT.
  • How ICBT differs from ERP therapy in addressing mental compulsions and providing functional certainty without distress.
  • Personal examples of applying ICBT techniques in real-life situations

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD episode 119! I’m Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor from Tennessee, and today I’m thrilled to have Crystal Propes with us. Crystal and I connected on Instagram, and I’m excited to share her story with you.

In this episode, Crystal dives deep into her personal journey with OCD and her experience with inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy (ICBT). We often feature professionals discussing therapy techniques, but it’s equally valuable to hear personal stories. Crystal’s experiences underscore that if one treatment doesn’t work for you, it’s okay—there are other options out there.

Crystal’s journey with OCD began in childhood, with symptoms manifesting as early as age three. From emetophobia to severe anxiety during her school years, her story is a powerful reminder that OCD can evolve and change over time. Despite her struggles, Crystal persevered and eventually sought therapy. She initially tried exposure and response prevention (ERP) therapy but found it overwhelming and not suited to her needs. Thankfully, Crystal later discovered ICBT, which resonated more with her and helped her focus on managing mental compulsions and staying present.

Tune in to hear Crystal’s full story and insights. Remember, if one treatment doesn’t work, it’s not the end of the road. There’s always hope and help available. Don’t give up!

Related Links and Resources:

www.instagram.com/functionallyocd/

What is I-CBT?

Explore Related episode:

18. ERP is Not the Only Option for OCD

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 119. I’m here today with another personal story of anxiety. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, and here I have Crystal Propes. We actually met on Instagram, which was really fun, and I just had reached out to her and she agreed to be on the show.

Crystal has been posting a lot of information about ICBT, which is inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, and just her perspective of it from the client that I feel is very helpful. Sometimes we have different types of shows. Sometimes we have shows with different professionals who tell us about the nitty gritty details of specific therapy, but we always find it’s helpful to share personal stories on the podcast of people who have actually been through the struggles and the trials that so many of you have gone through with OCD, and it encourages other people to continue to seek help because we want people to know that there’s hope and there’s help and with our story today, if one treatment in particular doesn’t work for you, that it’s okay to know that there are other treatment options out there for you.

You don’t have to be stuck in a rut. I think a lot of times people feel like I’m the exception to the rule and I’m the one that this therapy is not going to work for and I can’t get help. And then they stop and we just don’t want anybody to stop today. If you hear nothing else from this episode, that’s what I would want you to know from the therapist’s point of view.

_______________________

Carrie: Welcome, Crystal. Tell us a little bit about your story with OCD. How did that start? And when did you notice it showing up? And then when did you realize like, Oh, that’s what this is?

Crystal: My story is a long one. Now that I think back about it, I mean, I didn’t think this hard about it until recently, but now that I think back about it, I knew, like, that it had showed up in childhood, but I wasn’t sure how young.

I think I was three, so, which is very young, right? I’ve lived with this my entire life, but yes, I think I was three. I started my first manifestation of OCD with emetophobia. But I had a lot of other issues with it. I was overwhelmed with big situations. I remember having so much DPDR, like, going, “What’s next?”

The kids are supposed to be excited, but I’m sitting there in silence. My mom’s like, “Are you okay? What’s wrong with you?” And it’s like, “I don’t really know. I just feel overwhelmed.”

I would get really particular about the order of my toys and, like, my toys being played with a certain way and it would give me, like, extreme anxiety to, like, let people borrow books, just all kinds of little things that shouldn’t have caused anxiety that it did now that I look back on it.

I think what really, I would say, like, when my brain broke, even though I definitely had OCD before then, I was 12. I was in 7th grade and I was a teacher’s assistant. for my teacher and so I spent a lot of time alone in her room as one of my electives and I was like grading papers and stuff.

Obviously, being quiet alone gives you so much room for your imagination to run wild and I just remember having this thought, what if you’re terminally ill? What if you have cancer? And then that just latched right on. It’s like, why did I think that? Is God trying to tell me that I have cancer? Is there something wrong with me?

I spent like a long time after that, like terrified and I couldn’t figure out why. I thought I was going crazy and I didn’t want to say anything about it. My mom because I really didn’t know what was going on and I just remember like kind of dealing with that on and off all throughout high school.

I remember seeking reassurance from my mom, like, I’m not going crazy. I’m not crazy. Am I? There’s nothing wrong with me. Just like Googling stuff to make sure I was okay. Lots of rumination, lots of body checking. That’s kind of my experience with like my early OCD and how it started.

Carrie: Those thoughts, you’re just sitting there and then all of a sudden the thought pops in and OCD gets going and you get really latched into that thought and into the meaning of “What does this mean that I’m even having this thought?

What is this saying about me?” Emetophobia, for those who don’t know that are listening, maybe they don’t experience that, is fear of throwing up.

Crystal: It has existed largely in the background for the most of my life. Like, as long as I wasn’t directly exposed to it, I was okay. It didn’t live my life around it.

My OCD has worn many hats over my 30 years with it, and most of them were not aminophobia. Even though I’ve always been aminophobic, again, like, unless directly faced with it, it really didn’t bother me until I had kids, and they’re in school, and they’ve brought home germs, and I’ve been traumatized by it.

But yes before that, it really was mostly other themes that popped up, but now it’s the opposite. Now, all my other themes extremely well, and the am phobia has dug its calls in,

Carrie: It’s interesting how symptoms like this wax and wane over a lifetime. Like you said, sometimes things are really upfront and then, “Okay, I am not as worried about those things,” and then those fall into the background, and because of other life stressors raising young children and bringing home all of the germs, obviously that’s stressful.  There’s more fears about getting sick or people in the household throwing up and then you getting sick and throwing up.

Can you walk us through that process a little more? Becaus those were the pieces that caused you to seek out ERP therapy initially.

Crystal: Right. Before I get into that, I wanted to say like, I didn’t realize it was OCD and not generalized anxiety until I was about 18. There’s a gap there though from the time I realized it was OCD at 18, but I didn’t get an official diagnosis until last year at 32, even though I knew what it was.

I didn’t seek out therapy until then because I dealt with it on my own fairly well, even though it was so hard. severe when I was in college, extremely severe, but I ended up seeking out therapy because about two years ago, my kids started bringing home stomach bugs. I was blessed with the fact that my daughter, my oldest never had one until she was five and in public school in kindergarten.

That was the first one we ever had to deal with. Nobody caught it that time. So like, it was traumatizing for like about two weeks until I was sure like, okay, everything’s probably dead. And then I was okay, but then we got another one five months later, and then we got another one five months later. We had like four, and I had two or three of them, back to back to back.

By the time I would get over one, we would get another one, and it was just back to, and the one that took our whole family down, it was extremely traumatic for me. And I think people who don’t have a phobia, It’s hard to explain the level of fear you experience in relation to a true phobia.

Some people never feel that type of fear ever in their life, but if you’ve ever been terrified of something, you have to think of the most scared you’ve ever been in your entire life. Like the scariest possible thing you can think of and being faced with that and having to take care of your kid through that and then having to deal with it yourself.

I’m literally shaking while taking care of my kid. And then I get sick. It’s like the worst I’ve ever felt in my life. All my fears are realized. It’s just as bad as I thought it would be. I am traumatized, truly traumatized from this. I haven’t been officially diagnosed with PTSD, but only because I haven’t been evaluated for it.

We decided to treat the PTSD first, but I’ll get into that a little later on. I was super traumatized. I found that my kids, we started school and my kids, I was just watching them, their every move, hyper-villagently watching them, afraid they were going to fall ill at any second, just anticipating the next bug that I was going to have to deal with.

I was spending every second home with them. It stuck in my own head, ruminating, hypervigilance, my hands crack and bleed, I wash them so much, just like so miserable, even though I was technically functional.  I was still taking care of my family, I was still taking care of my kids, I was still sending them to school, they had everything they need, they were fed, they’re happy, but then I’m sitting there playing with them and I’m not present, my brain is miles away.

Carrie: Sure. Did you have a lot of cleaning rituals related to that that got ramped up?

Crystal: I have some. My therapist is big on not telling me what’s a compulsion. He wants me to decide what I think is compulsive. We’ll get into that talking about ICBT therapy a little bit because I distinction between it and ERP that I like.

I’m a compulsive hand washer. I will admit that right away. I feel like if I’m going to touch something that’s going to go into somebody’s mouth, I can’t have touched anything in between. If I wash my hands and then go touch something that’s not food, I have to wash my hands again before I touch food. That’s probably excessive. My hands bleed. I also do some things that may or may not be compulsive. My kids shower when they get home from school, but to be fair, they roll all over the floor at school and floors are gross. And I can’t change their hair. I can change their clothes, but I can’t change their hair.

I also have a tendency to llysol” all their shoes and “lysol” all my car after they get out from school. I have a three year old that like licks everything and puts everything in his mouth. If I didn’t have a three year old that was a germ collector, I wouldn’t be this intense about it. I do have some cleaning things that may or may not be compulsions. The mental compulsions that I have, the hypervigilance, the mental review, the ruminating, they far outweigh the physical ones in, like, time and, like, distress level that they cause.

Carrie: That’s the hard thing that I see a lot of my clients dealing with is okay, you can put the Lysol down and walk away. That may be really hard for some people.

I don’t want to minimize that, or you can tell somebody, “Okay, touch this and then don’t wash your hands,” but you’re always going to have your brain with you and so you have opportunities to ruminate all the time throughout the day. Those are, I think the hardest compulsions to deal with are the mental ones, like you were saying, that makes a lot of sense to me just from talking with my clients, and it makes sense that after seeing your kids be sick so many times, that it became stuck in your brain that am I ever going to get out of this? Is this going to happen again? And then this was terrible, horrible, awful and I’m trying to prevent these types of experiences from happening.  It rose to this level of where you decided I need to go to therapy and you had done some research.

I’m assuming like other people have on what type of therapy should you get? If you have OCD. And you found exposure and response prevention. This is the therapy that’s recommended.

Crystal: I knew about ERP for a long time. I have never wanted to try ERP. I have never thought that it would work for my phobia, but I was desperate. I knew about both ICBT and ERP going in. I was struggling to find an ICVT therapist and I was desperate. So I was like, okay, let me try. this therapist that says that they do ERP and CBT and is trauma-informed and see if they can work with me, but I don’t want to do exposure therapy directly related to my phobia.

I went in thinking maybe he can work with me, and he really seemed like he might. He was really nice, good Christian guy from my state. I thought this was going to be a good experience. He had a lot of experience with trauma and stuff and honestly, if he hadn’t been where he was working, I think that he may have been a really good therapist for me, but I felt like being treated as just like a number on a assembly line. “You have OCD, you have ERP. This is exactly how we treat this.” There was no room for my personal experience. We started with it and I just felt like any time he brought up, “okay, this is what we’re going to do.” Make this an exposure or okay, now we’re going to work on a hierarchy. It gave me so much anxiety.

I never felt better after therapy. I always felt immeasurably worse thought of like having therapy was giving me anxiety and it just felt like a bunch of extra work on top of what I was already dealing with. I was like, okay, look, I’m already so exposed to this. I don’t need extra exposure. I’m already so traumatized by this.

I don’t need extra trauma. I don’t want to create a hierarchy of my fears and then you make me work through them because I already faced my worst fear all the time. Like I deal with this all the time. I have three young children in public. It really wasn’t a good fit. So I talked to my friend and was like, Hey, can you find me an ICBT therapist? And she came through for me big time. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. How long did you stay with the ERP therapist?

Crystal: There was one or two weeks where I did two sessions in a week and then others where I just did one. Of course, we get a stomach bug right in the middle of the day. It’s been like one or two weeks that I decided to start therapy and my kids have a stomach bug.

It was awful. Not only am I like trying to start therapy, I’m also dealing with my worst nightmare at the same time. Of course only like five months after we had the last one we had. It’s again, I had just gotten started to feel better and then this happens again. So I think I did four or five weeks of ERP in total.

Carrie: Okay. So there were enough sessions to really determine, like, “This doesn’t seem to be jiving with what I’m intuitively wanting to do, and I don’t feel maybe fully heard or understood how traumatizing this is for me.”

Crystal: Right. I felt like I was having to spend so much time explaining what I meant and what was really bothering me and what I really hoped to get out of it.

None of that was coming through. I don’t know, like maybe he didn’t have a lot of experience with aminophobia in general. It just seemed like he could only do exposures and plan exposures. That’s not what I wanted. I already have exposures. What I primarily wanted to get out of therapy was to learn how to stop the mental compulsions, to stay in the present moment, to redirect my attention to reality and be able to be present with my kids. I don’t think I’m ever not going to be immunophobic. I can’t imagine a day where if there is a stomach bug in my house it’s not going to terrify me. I absolutely can imagine a day where I am not worried about it unless it is directly in my house. You know what I mean?I didn’t think ERP did a good job of making me more present. It’s like, “Okay, well, you’re not present, but you just got to function anyways.” But I’m already extremely functional. I don’t need help functioning. I need help being present, and that’s where I CBT spoke to me. 

Carrie:  I will tell people too, it matters where you put the I on CBT. If you put it at the end and you say CBT I, it’s CBT for insomnia. If you put it at the beginning and say I CBT, I know we’re therapists. are confusing than it’s inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy. 

Tell us a little bit about what you’ve learned about ICBT. I know you’ve done a variety of reading on it in addition to going to therapy with someone who’s trained in ICBT.

Crystal:  Let me preface this by saying this is not an ERP hate. Like I know it helps so many people. I don’t want people to think that I’m hating on the therapy that got them functional. I do realize the value in it. I just want to say that. Now let me dive into the therapy that I love. I knew a little bit about it from a friend who had gone through it and now is a fledgling therapist herself providing ICBT therapy in her clinical rotation.

I didn’t dig too, too much. I understood the concept. I understood how it worked. I didn’t dig too much because I wanted my therapist to guide me through it. And he’s done an incredible job of that. This is a good time to get me because I’m almost done. I just finished module 11. There’s only one module left.

Inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy is based off the concept of something called inferential confusion, which basically means that you have a trigger and then your brain has an obsessional doubt about it. What if there’s a germ on this doorknob? But you have no evidence that there’s physical evidence that there’s a germ on that doorknob. It looks clean. You didn’t see anybody sneeze on it. No one’s sick in your house. You have no reason to think that doorknob is dirty, but then OCD comes in and says “Well, what if somebody touched it and if you had a microscope, you could see it? What if the person who delivered your mail yesterday had a cold and he accidentally touched your doorknob while he was delivering it?”

Your brain thinks of all these faulty reasoning methods as to why your doorknob could be contaminated, but none of that is real, right? You don’t have evidence of any of that. All you have is your imagination thinking of all the ways it could be. That’s like really where ICBT lives. It teaches you that you’ve created a story based on faulty inferences that you have gained from all these reasoning methods that seem logical in your OCD brain, but they’re just a little off.

Past experience matters, but does this matter to this situation? No, you’re probably applying it and the situation’s different, or yes, germs technically do exist, but do you have any evidence that are dangerous germs that could actually hurt you on the door? It’s just all about teaching your brain how to recognize the obsessional doubt and the faulty reasoning behind it that goes into weaving this story and then redirect yourself to actual reality, the here and now. You Dismiss your doubts because you realize that they’re based on your imagination, so they’re not relevant to your present life.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I started reading the ICBT manual. I found it very interesting going back to what we were talking about, about mental compulsions versus physical compulsions. What ERP does is it focuses a lot more on the compulsions. ICBT focuses more on stopping because there’s a loop of sessions and compulsions.  ICBT is focusing more on stopping the loop at the obsessional part rather than stopping it at the compulsive part. I think that makes a difference when you’re talking about mental compulsions, being able to say, “Okay, right now, it has kind of taken over my imagination and now I’m imagining the worst case scenario where everyone in the family is sick in the hospital, dying because of the stomach bug that I caught off the doorknob”

Crystal: I think with ICBT, it’s a metacognitive therapy. It resolves the obsession. The thing I love about ICBT is that when it works when you finally get it. I’m not perfect at it yet/ Don’t get me wrong, but the more you practice the better you get and it’s like a slow burn First, you just start recognizing,” Crap! that is so outlandish.” Yes, that’s a faulty reasoning method, but you can’t stop. You’re still compelled to do it, but it could be possible, but as you recognize more and more of your obsessional doubts and what is actually drawing you into the OCD bubble, you get better and better and better at not getting into that rumination cycle, right?

It’s like, wait, no, this is an obsessional doubt. I don’t need to take it further, but he greatest thing about it is when it works, you don’t have to sit with uncertainty.  We get to have functional certainty in ICBT and I love that because you can be certain according to your senses, right? You can be certain enough.

The greatest part about it is that you never get to the distress part because you get to sit in that functional certainty and say, okay, this is enough for right now for the present moment. Possibility doesn’t matter because it’s not relevant right now. I went through an experience recently that like could have been really triggering for me, and I used my ICBP techniques.

I went to a funeral and I’ve had some death religious OCD in the past and obviously, I was around a bunch of people. I went in a public bathroom, lots of triggering things and I feel like with the ERP would say, all right, do it anyway and just sit with the discomfort, but with ICBT, I did it anyway, but I was never distressed because we resolved the obsession. We never got to the anxiety part of the sequence. We never got to the compulsion part of the sequence because we never got to the anxiety part. It’s like, yes, I did all of this. Yes, it would have been triggering in the past, but because I was able to stay rooted in reality, and I didn’t even get into the OCD bubble at all, like, No, I didn’t have to tolerate discomfort. No, I didn’t have to tolerate uncertainty because I had functional certainty, and I just operated it as I would as any normal person in a normal, non-obsessive circumstance would have. It was really cool to like be able to explain that to people. Yes I face triggers, but I didn’t even have to face discomfort.

Carrie: Did you prep yourself ahead of time or work with your therapist ahead of time on that experience in order to be able to do that?

Crystal: Not specifically. The death was a family friend and was not unexpected, but obviously, we didn’t know exactly when it was going to happen, but if I had done this back when I was like, not as far into the modules, I would not have had as good of an experience with this.

ICBT does a lot of background buildup before you get into the real skill building because you have to learn the metacognitive part. You have to learn exactly. where your obsessions come from, why the reasoning methods are faulty, and you have to learn so much of the beginning of ICBT is learning to recognize your obsessional sequence without changing it, because at that point you don’t have the skills to change your, like, your obsessional sequence.

You just realize, “Okay, this is where my obsessional doubt is, this is what my feared consequence is, this is giving me anxiety and dread and that is why I’m going to do a compulsion. But it’s hard to just stop the compulsion with like no guidance, right? Once you realize that you can notice all of that, then you get to the later modules that teach you about reality sensing and the OCD bubble and the alternative story.

It teaches you how to stay grounded in reality and create a story that is based in reality. And then it’s not compulsive because you don’t. argue with your OCD, right? ICBT is not arguing logic with OCD. It’s saying, okay, reality says this, and I’m going to believe it. And that’s where you leave it. So it teaches you those skills.

So I had just gone through module eight and module nine and module 10, which talk about all the tricks OCD uses to pull you in and why they’re tricks. Module eight is a reality fencing and it tells you about how to stay grounded in reality and not like give in to the OCD bubble. Module nine, the alternative story, which I absolutely love because it’s like you’re choosing to create a story, but you can create any story, so why not make a reality-based story and then stick with it? That helped me so much because I had just done all of that work. I was able to use that.  I walked into the public bathroom. I was like, no one’s sick in here. The bathroom’s really clean. I’m not going to dig into it anymore. No what if, no hunting for reasons that it could be dirty or contaminated. 

I hugged a bunch of random people and there was no like, what if they’ve been sick? It’s like, well, they look healthy. They seem healthy. Nobody looks like they feel ill or anything. So, I mean, I’m just going to believe the reality based story.

Everybody here is healthy and I’m not, it’s not dangerous to hug them. And you learn those techniques and you don’t have to dig into it. It’s so helpful. I will say like, it took me months, it took me probably four months of just noticing before I was able to employ and it helps a little bit. Noticing does help. I noticed that I was able to get out of my OCD cycle so much faster, even early on, even when after module two, it didn’t really start getting to the point where I wasn’t like even creating an obsessional story to begin with until I had gotten into the later modules. So it just builds on it, but once you get it, it all happens fast.

Carrie: This is something that feels very congruent with the types of things that I teach- mindfulness, which is learning to be in the present moment. The level of awareness and acceptance, what you’re talking about, even noticing your own thought process. A lot of people in the early stages of treatment, they have a hard time even noticing that what they’re thinking is an obsessional thought.

You may have worked on that some prior to this and probably elaborated on that in ICBT, but that’s really the first step is for people to notice. Even when they’re having an obsession before it just seems like, but this just people will say, well, it feels like my thought process and it feels really true when somebody walks into that bathroom, they may feel like it’s contaminated, but what you’re saying is look for the logical evidence that says that it’s not contaminated or that it is maybe it is really dirty.  Anybody without OCD would find it disgusting.

Crystal:  ICBT spins, I’m not kidding, six modules teaching you exactly how to do that. The first six modules teach you how to slow down your thought process. That’s like the biggest thing with ICBT. You have to slow down. It’s so not intuitive for people with OCD because our thoughts race. It gets your OCD bubble too to slow down your thinking. Instead of ruminating and being like, “Oh my gosh, this is so scary. This is so scary,” It redirects you. It almost pulls you a little bit outside of it to say, “Okay, wait, how did I get here? You spend the first six modules learning how to recognize your obsessional sequence, how you weaved this obsessional story, why it feels so real and the ways OCD pulls you in.” 

Literally six modules before it even ever tells you here’s how you get out, and as you learn to slow down the process and work on the whole, do I have direct evidence of this doubt? And that was like one of the earliest things. I think we were in module two when my therapist taught me this. He said, “Just ask yourself, what direct evidence would I have to have right now for my doubt to be true?” By direct evidence, he said he means it will hold up in a court of law. We live by this principle now.  I need direct evidence that would hold up in a court of law that my doubt is reasonable. And that was one of the earliest things before I even got to the skill building part of ICBT that started to pull me out of that bubble, that started to help me with my OCD.

What is the direct evidence I would have to have that one of my kids has a stomach bug? And in a court of law, evidence, it would have to be that they are physically sick. I would have to have seen one of them have gotten sick. Because I can’t tell you how many times I was like, my stomach hurts, and there’s nothing wrong with them. That’s not direct evidence, et cetera, et cetera. A lot of times the bar for direct evidence is way higher than we realize that it would have to be. Our OCD has tricks warp us into thinking we have direct evidence, but really, we don’t have direct evidence of that. That was the earliest thing that I learned to do to help pull me out of the OCD bubble was say, “Okay, wait, slow down.” You’re creating a story. What direct evidence would you have to have for the story to be true? That was like an early, early skill technique that my therapist taught me that really helped me when my OCD was really bad before I even got into the skill-building part.

Carrie: You said there are 12 modules that you have to go through and learn. As you go through those modules, is there homework involved? 

Crystal: ICBT is like a course, literally, I would say like a college course. The way my therapist approaches it, he goes over a module with me, and he doesn’t like read to me, and I do not have the module, he doesn’t send me any of the stuff until after.

He always has some sort of analogy or thought experiment or exercise to do with me in session, and they’re always excellent. I was relating my OCD to parallel, but not exact, situations. So like, I have a lot of anticipatory OCD issues. I’m afraid of the next time we’re going to have a stomach bug.

He would parallel that with the client that was worried about, he worried about noticing shapes, and he would notice a shape, and then he would see it everywhere and get really distracted by it, and it would make him miserable. He would always be worried about the next time he might notice a shape and it would stick in his brain. He would parallel my story to that, and he would parallel, maybe my worry about stomach bugs to someone who was equally as afraid of COVID. These parallel examples, but that took me a little bit to think rationally when it’s specifically about your theme. He would go over that with me and then it would always relate to the module we were on for that week and then he would send me the homework and the homework is always a lot of it is like some writing and then there’s some exercise like thought experiments that we do throughout the week.

We would meet back the next session and go over what I wrote. First go over the quiz and then we would go over the work I did and then any questions I had about it, one to two weeks per module, typically.

Carrie: I think this is really important, Crystal, for people to know what they’re getting into when they’re looking at doing different therapies because it doesn’t really matter which therapy you choose. If you’re not willing to show up and do the work, it’s not going to help you get better in different modules, different types of therapy work for different people. That’s why we’re talking about this to let people know, maybe you have tried ERP and you’re looking for a different option. Maybe you haven’t tried ERP because the idea of it just totally terrifies you and you don’t feel like you can do that. Or maybe people say, I don’t know how to expose myself to certain things that are in my imagination, like being afraid of going to hell, there are different things that they do and exposure and response prevention to expose people to that, but it doesn’t necessarily sit well.

Sometimes Christians struggle with doing some of those exposures and having to find somebody that we will do religiously sensitive exposure sometimes can be a challenge from what I’ve heard from various people that have contacted me through the podcast. So I’m glad that we’re talking about this, but it does, whatever you’re going to do, it does take practice.

It does take intentionality and it does take work be called it the OCD bubble. You’ve spent so much time going through that over and over and over again, like it’s really patterned in your brain. So whenever we’re trying to make these new brain connections, it takes our brain a while to pick up on something new like that, that you’re feeding it. You have to do it over and over and over, just like any other habit we create in our life. We can’t go out and exercise one day and say, Hey, like I’m in fit and in shape.

Crystal: You have to exercise that brain. I will say that was the biggest thing. I would get so frustrated at the beginning of ICBT therapy because I’ll be like, “Yes, you taught me to notice all this and I can notice it. I don’t know how to stop.: That was my biggest thing and then I realized the more I practice, all of a sudden I was just doing it. I can do this now. I cannot put too much emphasis on it, even if it feels you’re just noticing and it’s frustrating that you’re noticing and there’s nothing you can do.

The more you practice, the faster you get and the earlier you notice your obsessional story, the less anxious that you will make yourself. You’re torturing yourself by weaving this terrifying story. You’re scaring yourself. Once I realized that, it’s like, “Wait, why am I doing this? I’m literally just sitting here terrifying myself. Why am I doing this?”  

I was already so far in before I realized I was doing it. It was hard to stop, but when you catch it, then you’re not quite as anxious. You haven’t woven as good of a story at that point. It’s way easier to stop. Noticing is, I would say 85 percent of the work. Once you’ve noticed it, once you figure out how to notice it and slow yourself down, that’s like 85 percent of the work. The skill-building part is only 15%. 

I spent weeks doing it, he had me doing thought chains. At first, it was retrospective and then eventually I got so good at it, I can do it in real-time.

But it’s like, “Okay, I noticed I was in the bubble. Where did I go wrong? What initial thought took me into my imagination and away from reality? That was so helpful. I think I did them for three weeks. Now I do not have to write them down. I do not have to go back and go through it at all.

I can do them in real-time. Like I said, I’m not perfect. Sometimes they’re harder than ever. For instance, if there was a stomach bug going around at my kid’s school and I knew it, it would be much harder for me to deal with that, right? Or if one of my friend’s kids had a bug, when I get faced with an online, like the other day, the weather channel decided, well, not the other day, this was like a month ago, but norovirus is going around.

I was like, no, I don’t want to know that. I spent the whole day freaked out because of that. Again, I’m not perfect at it, but I will say the beauty of ICBT is that a lot of times you hear you can’t get better without exposures, but I think we need to think about that differently. You don’t have to do exposures to do ICBT if exposures terrify you and you are not going to do therapy for your OCD because you don’t want to do exposures, you do not have to do exposures with ICBT.

You will be triggered because you’re going to have to talk about your fears to be able to do the therapy, but you do not have to do exposures. And the thing about ICBT is that you obviously eventually you’re going to stop doing compulsions and live your life. But it’s not about doing exposures for the sake of exposures.

It’s about I can do this triggery thing because I have no direct evidence that it requires a compulsion. I have no direct evidence that my obsessional doubt requires me to do anything but live to do what I want to do according to my values. That’s the greatest part about it. My therapist, he does ERP with other clients.

Sometimes he’ll be like, “Well, that’s a great exposure” But it isn’t an exposure, right? It’s just something I wanted to do to live my life. We’re just like kind of joking about it being like that. But it’s great, right? Because I didn’t have to plan an exposure, plan response prevention. I just, for instance, we’re going to go to an Easter egg hunt at church on Saturday.

That gives me anxiety, having to take my three-year-old and let him hang out with other kids. Do I need to avoid that situation? No, because no one’s ill. I have no evidence that anything bad is going around at the church. It’s outdoors in the sunlight, and we’ve gone to many things at the church before, and my kids have been fine.

My daughter goes there. All the time with her friends, and she comes back fine. Reality tells me that we can go and it’ll be great. And it’s something I want to do. It’s something that’s values-based. And so it’s not an exposure, right? It’s just me living according to my values and not having to do an avoidant compulsion because reality says that it’s unnecessary.

Carrie: Unless you’re doing massive amounts of avoiding, which there are people that do that, that avoid all types of different situations. In order to live your life, you’re going to face triggering situations, I think is what you’re saying. So you’re going to expose yourself. It’s just not a, Oh, this is a planned exposure to work through my OCD.

It’s just like you said, living your life, which feels really freeing and beautiful that you’re able to go out and do those things.

Crystal: I like to think of it as not an extra exposure, you know what I mean? With ERP, it’s all about extra exposure on top of your triggers to teach your brain how to not respond to it and don’t do a compulsion when you do this trigger,

but with ICBT, you’re remaining in reality, and your obsessional doubt is irrelevant in the here and now. That’s like the biggest thing in ICBT, like, Your OCD is irrelevant. OCD is imaginary. It is a story you have created solely in your imagination, and it doesn’t matter if it’s technically possible.

It doesn’t matter if it’s happened before because it’s not happening right now. And because it’s not happening right now, the only way that OCD could have conceivably come up with this doubt is for you to have imagined it, I love that. OCD is in your imagination, but you need to be in the present. That’s the biggest thing it has taught me is that even though I feel like my fear is a very difficult one, my fear is more probable than not, right? There are lots of people who are scared of things with OCD that will never happen. I am going to be exposed again. I am going to be terrified, and I might even be traumatized by it, but it’s not happening right now, so it doesn’t require my attention right now. That has been the biggest thing for me is learning to let go of the what if and that it’s possible and this could happen in a week because it’s not serving me any purpose.

Carrie: Through that process, you’ve found that you’ve been able to be more present with your children than instead of just in these thought processes.

What if my child gets sick or what if they brought something home or what if this or what if that?

Crystal: Constantly, hypervigilantly monitoring their every move for evidence that they might be ill, you know, I used to spend so much time doing that and I still do it occasionally, but it’s much quicker.

I’ll look at them. I’m like, “Oh, it looks fine and I’ll just move on.” Whereas before I would have stared and I would have asked how they felt and I would have dug, but digging is bad.

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. Tell us where people can find you on Instagram and we’ll put some links where they can learn more about ICBT from a professional perspective, but tell us where they can find you on Instagram.

Crystal: Functionally OCD. They can find me there. You can message me there. Awesome.

Carrie: Awesome. Thank you again for being on the show. 

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie  Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

118. How Do I know if this Thought is an OCD Obsession? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

Join Carrie as she helps you distinguish personal thoughts from OCD obsessions. She breaks down common OCD themes and the urgency they create and offers practical tips for navigating the complexities of OCD.

Episode Highlights:

  • How to recognize common themes of OCD thoughts.
  • The urgency often associated with OCD obsessions and the behaviors they provoke.
  • The tendency of OCD to make insignificant issues feel overwhelmingly important.
  • The importance of mindfulness in discerning the true significance of intrusive thoughts.
  • Strategies for embracing uncertainty and resisting the urge to seek reassurance.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 118 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD. I’m your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor here in Tennessee. Today, we’re diving into a question many of you have asked: “How do I know if this is an OCD obsession?”

Let’s break it down into four key points to help you identify whether what you’re experiencing is an OCD obsession.

1. Align with Your Typical OCD Themes: Think about whether your current obsession matches the usual themes of your OCD. For example, if you struggle with scrupulosity, your obsessions might revolve around fears of offending God or committing sins. If your thoughts fit these recurring themes, it’s likely an OCD obsession.

2. Sense of Urgency: OCD often creates a sense of urgency, making you feel like you need to resolve or answer something immediately. This urgency can manifest as excessive rumination or seeking reassurance, like re-reading scripture or asking for advice repeatedly. If it feels urgent, it could be OCD at play.

3. Perceived Importance: OCD tends to magnify the importance of certain thoughts, making them seem like the most crucial issue at the moment. For instance, you might obsess over a past interaction or perceived mistake, even when it’s not relevant to your current life. Practice mindfulness to gauge whether these obsessions are overshadowing more immediate concerns.

4. Embrace Uncertainty: If you’re still unsure whether a thought is an OCD obsession, embracing uncertainty can be key. OCD loves to create a false sense of certainty, pushing you to seek answers immediately. By learning to sit with uncertainty, you can reduce the power of these obsessions. Remember, it’s okay not to have all the answers right now.

I hope these insights help you navigate your journey with OCD. If you need more support, head to carriebock.com/services/

Explore related episode:

87. OCD FAQ with Carrie and Dr. Kelley Kleppinger

Transcript

Hi, welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 118. I’m your host, Carrie Bock, and I’m a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I wanted to talk with you today about “How Do I Know If this is an OCD Obsession?” This is something that comes up for a lot of people, right? Is it God? Is it the devil? Is it OCD?

Is it an OCD obsession or is it really just me? I want to break it down for you a little bit, maybe give you four ways that you can know whether or not this is an OCD obsession. Number one, does it fall in line with your typical OCD themes? You know your themes that OCD typically runs through. For someone with scrupulosity, for example, “Have I offended God in this way?” “Did I actually sin?”

A lot of times, OCD starts with, “What if?” What if I hurt that person’s feelings? What if I ran over someone with my car? What if this is not arranged properly, then something bad might happen, that superstitious type of thinking that can come along with OCD? Is the obsession or the thought process that you’re having, is it in line with what your themes typically are?That’s number one. 

Number two, does this feel urgent? OCD will tell you, you have to do something about this right now and it may not be an external action. So it may not be like a typical checking the doorknob or checking to make sure that the stove is off one more time. It may be a rumination of. I have to figure this out right now, and I have to have an answer right now.

It feels very urgent, so that may lead you to say, “Okay, if I need to know right now, that means I’m going to go Google about it. I’m going to go call my best friend and ask her the same question that I’ve already asked her and I’ve already received an answer to.” That’s reassurance seeking. “I have to sit here and think about it, or I have to find three scripture verses that tell me yes or no. I have to look at what this pastor that I listen to, let me try to see if he’s done a sermon about this situation.” If it feels like, yes, I’ve got to engage, I’ve got to do something, I’ve got to figure it out and it’s so urgent. It’s like, I’ve got to do it right now. That’s a good indicator that you are dealing with an OCD obsession.

Number three, does it feel like it is the most important thing, even if it is not? OCD has a tendency to just cloud and zoom in and tell you this is the thing that you need to be focused on. Right now, you need to be focused on, did you hurt that person’s feelings three years ago when you told them the truth about their boyfriend, that he wasn’t the right person for them.

OCD may have you stuck on that for a long time. And if you’re able to zoom out a little bit and look at kind of your life in total, Is the most important thing to be focusing on right now, or is it just that’s what OCD is telling me? It’s the most important thing to focus on right now. Because what happened between you and your friend three years ago when you made a comment about her boyfriend wasn’t the person she should be with.

I imagine that you have many other things going on in your life right now, whether that’s work, school, family responsibilities, current friendships, maybe you’re still in a relationship with that friend and things are fine right now. What’s actually happening in the present. This is why I teach people mindfulness skills.

This is why I stress those and have a course on mindfulness because learning to be able to be in the present helps us know what’s the most important thing right now. And a lot of times it’s not what OCD is telling you. Sometimes, we can be running from the stress of the present moment into an obsession and you don’t even realize that you’re doing it.

It’s much easier for me to like, it’s a familiar pathway in my brain, maybe easier is not the right word, but it’s a familiar pathway in my brain ruminate about this scripture verse and trying to figure it out. Versus sitting with the uncertainty maybe of my present situation of a family member who’s sick or of not being certain if I’m doing a good job on this work project.

Thinking about what is OCD possibly trying to distract you from that’s uncomfortable in the present. And as you’re able to sit more with some of those present uncertainties, that’s going to help you be able to manage the OCD and to recognize. That it’s not the most important thing right now.

Acceptance and commitment therapy or act teaches you to move towards your values, to move towards what’s important to you. And so if you’re sitting in your room obsessing about something or seeking a lot of reassurance, a lot of times that’s taking time away. From what’s most important to you at that moment.

Even though OCD is telling you, Hey, you’ve got to figure this out right now, you’ve got to sit and ruminate on it. Thinking about what are my values? What’s actually most important to me? How can I move towards that value system instead of being stuck in this OCD loop over and over again, where I like to tell people that OCD is trying to get you to scratch an itch that you can’t scratch.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had an itch on your back that you couldn’t reach. It’s a little bit like that. It’s like, well, maybe I can, maybe if I just move this way, or, oh, maybe if I just put my arm that way, maybe I’ll be able to get to it. That’s what OCD obsessions are like. It wants you to believe that you can scratch that itch, but really you can’t.

Really, you have to learn to be able to sit With the discomfort to sit with the uncertainty. And as long as you keep chasing, being able to scratch that itch, the more and more uncomfortable you’re going to be. And it’s just going to continue back that loop of obsession and compulsion. We’ve covered three different points so far on the four points of how do I know if this is an OCD obsession or not.

Let’s say point number four is that you’re still unsure. You’re still not sure if this is an OCD obsession or not. And I would say, encourage you to embrace that uncertainty in any way that you can. I know that may seem big or impossible for some of you who are listening to this. With anxiety or OCD, but embracing uncertainty is what allows you to be able to say, Hey, I can move forward towards my values.

I can keep living and functioning in my day-to-day life. I don’t have to figure this out right now. There are some things that take us a long time to figure out. Is this the person that I’m supposed to marry? Probably shouldn’t make that decision in a day or in an hour. We don’t necessarily need to know that absolutely right now, but that is what OCD is telling you, to say, let me sit with this uncertainty.

Let me gather more data over time, not gather more data by Googling a bunch of stuff. But let me take my time on deciding, is this the person that I should marry? If it’s a spiritual obsession, a lot of times people can get stuck on sins and making sure, “Okay, I have to eradicate every sin from my life, sins in the present, sins in the past.” Can I sit with the fact that maybe there are some things that I’ve done in the past? Maybe sometimes I can reconcile those things. But there are some things that we just can’t that it might be damaging to go back and rehash something with somebody that they’ve already healed from, but you might still be stuck in shame about that’s something that you might have to sit with.

Embracing that uncertainty and that discomfort in the present is going to help. Slow you down, slow all the racing obsessions down because the less that you give into them, the less that they’re going to reoccur. Everyone has uncertainty in their life. Everyone has things that they don’t know, and it’s okay to not know, and it’s okay to have a mindful moment and acknowledge there are some things that I’m questioning right now.

There are some things that I am uncertain about. I can sit with those things. I can recognize that discomfort, but I don’t have to become a slave to it. I can continue living my life. I hope that these tips have been helpful for you and you can reach out to me anytime at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I encourage you to click on the courses tab and check out the options there.

I have a great course on mindfulness that can really help you learn to sit with some of that uncertainty, learn to sit with those uncomfortable feelings and recognizing you don’t have to act on them. 

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

117. Demonic Oppression or OCD? A Personal Story with Jessica Ray

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

Carrie interviews Jessica Ray about her experiences with OCD and faith. They discuss how OCD developed alongside Jessica’s newfound faith after childhood trauma.

Episode Highlights:

  • The challenges of navigating OCD within Christian community.
  • The importance of recognizing the difference between demonic oppression and mental illness.
  • Jessica’s journey of finding relief through diagnosis and treatment.
  • The supportive role of Christian community even at times they didn’t understand mental health struggles.
  • Specific things that helped her along her journey of healing. 

Related Links and Resources:

Jessica Ray’s YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/@JessicaJoy34

Instagram: www.instagram.com/joynicole_34/

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Episode 117 of Christian Faith and OCD. For the past three years, I’ve seen firsthand how sharing personal journeys can deeply resonate with our community. Many of us facing anxiety and OCD may feel isolated, but connecting through shared experiences and faith can be incredibly uplifting.

In this episode, I’m honored to speak with Jessica Rae, who opens up about her personal battle with OCD. Jessica’s story is remarkable as her symptoms began in her late teens, right after a profound conversion to Christianity. She describes how her OCD manifested through relentless obsessive thoughts and paralyzing panic attacks, particularly around her role in evangelism and her personal relationships.

Jessica’s path to healing has been both challenging and inspiring. Initially, she encountered some misconceptions about mental health within her church community, which complicated her journey. However, Jessica’s perseverance led her to seek professional help and receive an accurate OCD diagnosis. This pivotal step marked the beginning of her significant progress in managing her symptoms.

Jessica’s experience highlights the critical role of recognizing mental health issues and finding the right support. It also emphasizes the power of faith and community in the healing process.

Explore Related episode:

108. OCD personal story with Michael Kheir

Transcript

One thing that I’ve learned over the course of three years doing these podcast episodes is that you guys love personal stories. You find them very relatable because so many people dealing with anxiety and OCD feel isolated They feel like I’m the only one that’s going through these things.

So it really helps you to hear from other Christians who are also struggling and how they’ve seen God in their redemptive story. They’re still in process of working through some things. You know, we’re all on a journey to become more like Christ and in pursuit of healing from him. Today on the show, I have with me Jessica Rae and Jessica had emailed me when I was looking for guests and just offered to share her story. If you would like to be a part of our email list, definitely go on www.hopeforanxietyandocd/free. Hit up any of our downloads and then you can kind of be in the know and get random questions thrown at you sometimes.

Carrie: Jessica, I appreciate you responding to that and welcome to the show. 

Jessica: Thank you for having me. Excited to be on. 

Carrie: Tell me a little bit about how OCD showed up for you when you were younger.

Jessica: Whenever I was very tiny, under the age of two years old, I was a victim of sexual abuse. And I can remember having anxiety attacks, probably starting around four or five years old.

I also had an issue with food at a super young age. As a whole, I wouldn’t say that anyone ever recognized that I was an anxious child, but I definitely remember having things pop up like anxiety attacks if I was away from my parents or in a place that I wasn’t comfortable in. Anxiety really didn’t pop up for me until I was around 19 years old.

So my story’s probably a little bit different from other people. I didn’t really have any OCD type symptoms manifest until a little bit later on, until around 19, 20 years old.

Carrie: Okay. Do you feel like the people in your life just kind of saw some of these maybe as Age appropriate behaviors, like it’s somewhat normal for children to go through separation anxiety, and maybe they didn’t realize internally how much that was affecting you or how troubling that was for you?

Jessica: I would say so. I can remember having a very black and white bend in my thinking. And a shame oriented type thinking, especially if it had to do with getting in trouble or rules, or if I’d done something wrong, I could only hold it for so long and I had to go and confess it. I can remember going to church off and on as a kid and somehow I only heard hell.

I didn’t hear the gospel. My brain focused in on the idea of hell and I just thought I was going there. I can recognize internally that I had some issues. Very black and white thinking and some shame based thinking, but outwardly, I would say I appear pretty, if you want to call it, normal. Right. So it would make sense that my parents didn’t think to take me to a professional or anything like that.

Carrie: Yeah. What showed up when you were 19? What happened there?

Jessica: 19 is when I was born again. 19 is whenever I began my relationship with Jesus. I had a very, very radical conversion for lack of a better way to put it. Things changed for me overnight. God really just changed my heart and I was truly born again.

I was all in 100 percent and that is when the obsessive thinking, the panic, the anxiety started to manifest. I would say the first, after two or three months in going to church regularly. Being in the scriptures, starting to be discipled, I started to have some behaviors and some ways of thinking, looking back on it, that I’m like, there’s OCD.

Some examples that I could share would be, a few months in, I had a thought that I needed to end a relationship that, a friendship that I’d had from childhood. And this person wasn’t a believer, but she wasn’t bringing any sort of that influence into my life. And I just had this thought that I needed to end this friendship.

Even after talking to my youth pastor and them encouraging me not to do that, the anxiety, the obsessive thinking that what if that was God’s voice and I’m being disobedient, that sort of thing. Just was so intense that I ended the friendship. That was kind of the beginning of it. After that OCD latched on to evangelism.

I was a baby, baby Christian. I’m introverted by nature. I’m not somebody that just walks up to strangers and let me tell you about Jesus. It usually happens in a relational form for me, but it seemed that anytime I would hear a teaching. And it seemed that I was deficient and are not doing things that I should be doing, quote unquote, not doing things the right way my brain would latch on to it.

So very early on, I had an evangelism obsession. The anxiety of walking up to a stranger probably outweighed the anxiety of OCD in most points, but I remember going and knocking on doors at my grandma’s apartment complex in absolute torment. Praying for people having a pure heart wanting to honor God, but just not knowing what was going on And having thoughts and every thought that I have, I think it might be God.

I was in quite a bit of torment the first year of my walk with God because of undiagnosed OCD.

Carrie: Wow. The people that were discipling you, did they pick up like something just doesn’t seem quite right here? Like, were you asking for a lot of reassurance or, but maybe they couldn’t put their finger on it of what was going on?

Jessica:  Yes. About three or four months in, the evangelism compulsions hit. I was living in Northeast Texas, which is not where I’m from. I’m from Houston area. And I started going to this church. I went to church by myself. My dad would drop me off and I would just go because nobody in my family was really following the Lord.

On my journey, God’s really put people in my life really to protect me. People that were very kind, but were also very patient and would kind of deal with the reassurance that I needed. I had a pastor that I would call at seven o’clock in the morning. He was so kind and patient, but yes, I had the wife of my associate pastor and then the pastor of the church that I was going to, my best friend, I would call her at three o’clock in the morning because I couldn’t sleep, I was just absolutely tormented and they would try to direct me and give me reassurance.

You have to be led by the Holy Spirit. All these things, I was so new in the faith and I’m dealing with this anxiety disorder and. It was like dropping a quarter into a bottomless pit. It just, it would come back. I don’t think anyone around me knew what OCD was. I don’t think anyone around me even thought, Oh, this is a mental illness, which kind of tells you the lack of awareness that we have in the church.

Definitely, I think maybe what was going on with me at first was branded as like legalism. I come from more of a charismatic background and so maybe more of like thinking it was demonic oppression or things like that. No one really even thought, Oh, this could be something that maybe she needs a doctor. That conversation never happened.

Carrie: I really wish that we could put out more educational materials to the church to let them know some of these warning signs of scrupulosity. So that if they have someone who seems quite distressed and is coming and asking a lot of questions, instead of saying like, okay, this person is really trying to figure everything out, or they’re dedicated to their faith, or, and like, it could look a lot of different ways.

That they really have some information to point that person in the right direction to say, Hey, this is potentially what it’s called. Go to a mental health professional and see if you can get assessed and get some help so that you’re not living in such a high state of distress. I wonder if when you got saved and then there was all this psychological torment, was there a part of you that sensed there’s some kind of peace in here?

I know God’s with me. Like even in the midst of all of that that was going on because you kept following Christ, like you didn’t give up on your faith.

Jessica: I think that I had such, for lack of a better way of putting it, I had such a supernatural experience. My conversion experience was very much, I knew nothing about Jesus and I just came to God in absolute surrender and I was changed.

Literally overnight, I fell in love with Jesus. But in a sense, I fell in love with the God that I didn’t really know yet. I know I was absolutely convinced that Jesus was it for me. I didn’t want anything else. But honestly, the first couple years, I didn’t have that peace. It was several years down the line of the Lord really intervening in these places where I was super tormented.

There are some pretty wonderful stories that I have in ways that God just supernaturally would just drop things in my life to be like, hey, this isn’t who I am. This isn’t me. But it was rough. It was rough for quite a while. That’s that piece, that anchor didn’t come until a little while down the road.

Carrie: It seemed like you held on to your salvation experience though. I find that even in the midst of like all of the OCD distress, usually, people can name a time or two out of their life where they really saw, whether it was their conversion experience or whether it was experiences after that as well, like, okay, I know that God is real and I have encountered him in this experience in a positive way.

It’s almost like the Israelites when they picked up stones from the river, it’s like kind of remember that you crossed the Jordan and you each get a stone so that you can remember that God did this miracle for you. And I feel like we need those markers in our own lives as Christians. To say, hey, things are really rough right now, and I don’t have stable footing, but I know God did this back here, and so I know that he’s going to be able to do, lead me through the next part of life that feels scary or uncertain or troubling.

Jessica: Yes. I would say at the beginning stages of my walk with God, he really showed up for me through people. I had wonderful people around me who loved me really well, and who were very patient. It’s kind of mind-boggling the way that looking back, I can see how God protected me. It was almost like I was in this little bubble, but he did it through people.

That was one way that I definitely look back and go, “wow.” There are a few other just short moments that I could share. One, I was in Northeast Texas and my best friend was around Houston area where we lived and she knew what was going on with me, what I was experiencing because I was calling her at three o’clock in the morning, which she was really in it with me, which I’m so grateful for her.

We’re still best friends. She was driving home from work, and she said the only way she could describe it is she felt internally like God yelled at her. Hell, Jessica, this. And what she felt was, stop trying to answer all of your questions. Give me all of your questions. Look at what this does to you. Look at the fruit of this.

If it tears you up, it’s not for me. When she told me that that was like, okay, I held on to that for about like 10 years. I held on to those concepts. And so anytime I would have these looping thoughts or I would have this. Anxiety that I felt like I couldn’t manage. I would literally just be like, God, I have no idea.

I don’t have the answer to this. I would just say, you have it. He just carried me that way. I live pretty normally for about 10 years. Okay. Using those few things, and of course, if you look at scripture, scripture backs that those concepts up. And the way that you traditionally treat OCD, in a sense, kind of lines up with, you know, surrendering things to God, the Ian Osborne, Catholic Christianity Cure OCD, I think he calls it something along the lines of, I can’t think of the word, but the whole concept is just surrendering these.

Formenting thoughts and doubts up to God and letting him be big enough to carry them. So I was really applying these principles before I knew I had OCD, which is a testament to the faithfulness of God. That’s one thing. One other story that’s really close to my heart is I was cleaning a room one day in my mom’s house.

This was about five or six years into my walk with God. I’m still wrestling with these tormenting doubts about certain theological issues and there’s a Bible on the floor and the room was a wreck and I was cleaning it and I opened up the Bible and it opened up to a scripture that God had highlighted to me and Isaiah about a year before.

He’s speaking to the Israelites. And he says, “Oppression will be far from you for you shall not fear.” And it’s all these promises of God establishing them in righteousness and them being free from fear. And he had used that scripture before to show me like, your life is not going to be what you’re experiencing right now.

This is not going to be your life. And that day when I was just in the muck and the mire of anxiety and obsessive thoughts. And we all have those moments when we’re dealing with that kind of anxiety, where we think we’re not going to make it. And when I opened up the Bible and it was right there to that passage, I was like, okay, I mean, how could that not be God?

I’ve had a lot of those stories on my journey, but that’s one that I can really highlight is that was just maybe a small but a supernatural act of God to keep me going really.

Carrie: You talked about having a period where OCD didn’t bother you. It bothered you really intensely and then you were able to surrender some of those doubts and having to figure it out to God and you kind of had a more peaceful period there and then things came back and that happens with OCD sometimes.

The symptoms kind of wax and wane. It depends on life change and stress and other issues. Tell us about when that came back. What happened? Was that closer to you getting a diagnosis?

Jessica: Yes. I had had some pockets off and on in my twenties where I would have those looping thoughts and that anxiety. But every time that that would happen, I would eventually just say, you know what?

The way that I was taught was it was just demonic oppression. And so I’d be like, Oh, this is the spirit of fear. And I’m going to choose not to listen to this. And then I would come back up for air and kind of go on about my way. When I was 30, I got into my first serious relationship as a Christian adult.

That’s when OCD was triggered, and really, that’s when everything came to a head. So one of the major themes that I wrestled with is relationship OCD. Relationship OCD and scrupulosity have been the two, a little bit of body image issues, body dysmorphic disorder type issues, but those are the two main themes that I’ve struggled with so I got into this relationship.

It was not a bad relationship. It was not abusive We were both believers. It was good. It wasn’t we were young and whatever but I began to obsess over Every little thing everything he did everything. He said I was terrified that I had to break up with him I was terrified that he was crazy, that there was just something horribly wrong with him, with his character.

At that time, I was living in a house with some ladies from the church I went to. The woman who owned the house, she was like a mom to me. There was a good two month period where I was in just an absolute panic and torment constantly, almost every single day, and it got to the point where I was sleeping in bed with her because I didn’t want to be alone.

I wasn’t eating very much. I wasn’t sleeping very much. I probably lost 20 pounds. Kind of one of the parts, I think, that kept me from getting help a little bit sooner was that the church culture that I was involved in at the time really believed that any sort of mental illness was demonic. Not that the person was doing anything wrong, but that this was demonic oppression or however you want to say that.

There was no awareness of, hey, mental illnesses are actually demonic. Medical and biological. This could actually be something that needs medication or a doctor. There was no grid for that. I started having panic attacks multiple times a day at work because I’m single, never been married. I didn’t have a lot to fall back on financially.

I had to get up every day and go to work. There’s no option there. So I’m having panic attacks. I started having really horrifying, intrusive thoughts. The worst thoughts that you could imagine. Blasphemous, violent, those kinds of things. That was really the breaking point where I thought that my life was over.

I literally thought that my life was over. I don’t know how, I didn’t know what I thought was going to happen to me, but I just thought one night after getting one hour of sleep, I called my pastor. Everybody loved me really well through this, even though they weren’t, but they still love me very well. I called my pastor.

I had gotten one hour of sleep and he just said, sweetie, I think it’s time for you to go to the doctor. I had been involved in a ministry that referred me to this psychiatry practice in my area that was Christian, that they kind of worked in tandem with. I called, I set up an appointment. On my way to work, I dragged myself out of bed and went to work, and on my way to work, a friend sent me an article on harm OCD.

She had been kind of Googling, praise the Lord for Google sometimes, unless you’re using it for a compulsion. Yeah. She googled my symptoms and she found an article on Harm OCD. And I got to work and I read it and I was like, Oh my gosh, not just the thoughts, but the OCD cycle, the obsessions, the looping thoughts, the reassurance and the anxiety coming back.

I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is what’s happening to me.” I have this article in hand, and I show up to the psychiatry practice that I still go to, and met my psychiatrist for the first time, such a wonderful man, I’m just so thankful for him, and he confirmed this is textbook OCD, and so I got the diagnosis.

Carrie: Where you more shocked or relieved, or how did you feel at that point?

Jessica: I was relieved to know what was happening to me.

Carrie: To have an answer finally. 

Jessica: Yes. I’m very much a solution-focused person, and so I’m like, okay, this is what’s happening. All right, give me the tools. What do I do? I texted my pastor and said, “Okay, this is what’s going on.”

He was really supportive, and I just started devouring anything and everything I could surrounding OCD and how to treat it. I remember that night coming home after being diagnosed and finally sleeping, finally having a good night’s sleep. That’s where my recovery journey started was right then.

Carrie: It’s hard to have mental health issues, but I find it more terrifying to think Evil is constantly oppressing me on a daily basis.

Jessica: Yes, and having an anxiety disorder, and having this thought in your head that this is a demon, well, I mean that, in and of itself, that just runs them up internally. I remember being afraid that my sanity was going to be stolen from me because panic attacks, a genuine panic attack is from what I understand is your fight or flight response, just going crazy.

You feel like you’re going to die. You feel like you’re going to go crazy. I was experiencing derealization. I felt like I was coming out of my skin, like it was horrifying. And so to not know my body’s doing this. I’m not being taken over by some demonic entity and having a panic attack to not know that in that moment. That’s even more terrifying, I would say.

Carrie: How did your theology, I guess, shift after that point? Or did you end up like switching churches or changing things at some point? Like, what was that process like? Because I think that we have different experiences and not that your experience is the litmus test of God. That’s the scriptures, but God works in our lives through experience, sometimes to teach us about him. I do believe that’s biblical. So what was that process like? 

Jessica: All of the above. I do go to a different church now. The house that I was living in, the woman who owned it, wonderful, godly woman, loved me so well, was so patient with me.

I guess my church community didn’t have, like I said, a grid for mental illness. I guess. I’m a truth person, I’m a justice person, and if I know something to be true, then I’m not going to say that something else is going on. I’m a very open book. I jumped into recovery headfirst and embraced that I have obsessive-compulsive disorder.

This is a thing. I started to learn, well, naturally, if somebody asked me how I’m doing, or if I’m having a conversation, I’m going to share. I just got this diagnosis, or whatever. I stayed at my church for a couple years, but these things that I had learned just started not to line up anymore, and the more I understood mental illness, not just OCD, but schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is a brain disease. I just started to realize these things that I’ve been taught, they don’t work, they’re not helpful, they’re not necessarily 100 percent scriptural, and I felt such a peace on the inside of me from God. I just started. That hey, this is what’s going on. This is your avenue of healing.

This is where I’m leading you Is to understand these things I slowly but surely just really started to feel like I couldn’t fully be myself anymore in this beautiful church family that I had been in because there was this part of me that was seen as, well, I experienced it to be seen as she’s oppressed demonically.

Carrie: The primary problem is spiritual, not the problem is medical, mental health, emotional And so many of those things overlap, right?

So it’s hard for us to sit here and tease out and determine sometimes, what’s medical? What’s mental health? What’s spiritual? What’s going on? I personally do not believe that we need to be afraid of demons because we have the Holy Spirit inside of us. Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.

There may be times where we are tempted and thrown off track or discouragement comes our way. And we know certain things are clearly not from God. So those pieces are hard to tease out, but I think it removes kind of like what we were talking about before. It removes some of the fear if you’re able to say, “Hey, I know at least that I do have this medical mental health diagnosis, and  I don’t need to be afraid of that,  I can actually, like you said, embrace it as, okay, this is what I’m dealing with now that I know, now that I can do something different about it. What is that recovery process been for you like, and just kind of share with us where you are now.

Jessica: Like I said, I began to really just devour any and all resources that I could get my hands on.

I found a book by a local pastor named Jeff Wells. It’s called breaking free of OCD and it’s about his 30-year-long battle with OCD and how knowing God as a father and applying scriptural principles and he had a lot of recovery. I read that book and I found Jamie Eckert. She has scrupulosity.com. She has a coaching group. I joined that. I really started to get some tools in my tool belt and really apply the standard OCD tools, like how we treat it with acceptance and commitment therapy, some ERP exposure-response and prevention tools, Jamie Eckert, her materials helped me probably more than any of them.

Things like, I’m going to put this on ice for two days or for a week. I’m having this obsessive thought, you know what? Put it on ice. It’s going to be okay. You know, that kind of thing. So I would just say workbooks, online resources. I do have therapists, but I never sought classical OCD treatment. There are so many resources that are free. 

I’m an advocate for therapy, 100%. If you have that, and if you can afford it, and if it’s accessible, 100 percent go for it, but there’s just a lot of online resources. I refuse to be debilitated, and there’s so much hope in the OCD recovery community. No OCD doesn’t get to run your life.

I just really started applying tools. I got to a good place. I was diagnosed in June of 2020. It took me probably about nine months to a year to get it back to like, I would say more normal everyday living. In 2022, I had this reemergence of evangelism, compulsions, and scrupulosity that took me out for a couple of months. During that time, I had been feeling the Lord. He just orchestrated some circumstances that kind of booted me out of my church. I started going to a local church, and Jeff Wells is the pastor of that local church, that book that I referenced before.

So he understood OCD. It’s called Woods Edge Community Church. They offer a recovery group called Regeneration, or for short, Regen. In that place of crisis, I started attending that church, and that first week after I had left my church, I went to a Regen meeting, I signed up, I was like, I need something, I need help.

I don’t even know fully what I’m doing, but I need help. It’s a 12-step program. It’s very biblically based and the basis of it is we are powerless to overcome these things in our own strength with the power of the Holy Spirit. God can transform anything that we might be going through. And so the recovery group was different from other 12 step programs.

It wasn’t just about addiction. It could be codependency, mental illness. I went through the program, and God really confronted unbelief in my life. I had this lie that I lived in for all of these years that I’ve been walking with Jesus that He expected me to fix. My own issues that he expected me to solve my own problems.

I finally got to probably the end of myself realizing I cannot fix this. There are parts of me that just feel utterly broken. There are parts of me that feel disabled, the way that my brain works. When you have OCD, your brain tends to be so black and white that you genuinely at times, at least for me, still can’t discern certain things.

This foundation, the first three steps are admit, believe, and trust. Admit that you’re powerless. Believe that God is all powerful and can change and transform anything that you’re going through and trust that he actually wants to and that he will and that the believe and trust. I was like, “Oh, man, I don’t trust God at all.”

It pushed me into the scripture in a way that nothing else ever had. And if you really look at scripture, there is this ongoing theme of as humans, one, we can’t fix ourselves apart from me. You can do nothing. We don’t have the power to overcome these things. God doesn’t expect us to, and his willingness to help come alongside and heal those that simply look to him and trust.

I mean, it’s everywhere in the scripture. I just came to this point of, are you going to believe what this book says about me? Are you going to believe your circumstances? Your circumstances look really dire to you. They look really big and really hopeless, but is that what my book says? He really started to heal this view that I had of him.

Slowly but surely, I’ve come to a place of, John 15, 4 through 5 is one of my favorite scriptures and it says, “Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.” And it goes on to say, for apart from me you can do nothing.

God has really just brought me to this place of rest. Where the situation comes in my life. I don’t have an answer for I go to him and I invite him into the situation and I’ve seen him just do amazing and just mind blowing things with these situations that I just give over to him and I simply make space. I make space for the Holy Spirit to do his work.

Carrie: That trust piece is, it’s so hard and it’s so huge. I know it’s something that God has really worked with me on in my own life. In our culture, there’s so much striving and so much working and so much self-improvement. Even, you know, we’re kind of self improvement junkies.

Sometimes, like you said, what God wants us to do is like, be still and know that he’s God, and take the step back and say, okay, I surrender, I give up trying to do it on my own, and I need you to enter in. But sometimes God has to get us to the end of ourselves. He’s like, okay, you’re ready now. You’re ready now for me to step in and to do that work because you came to the end of you.

Our pastor shared this quote recently by Jackie Hill Perry about trust. And it said this is because God is holy. He cannot sin, and if he cannot sin, that means he must be the most trustworthy being on the planet. It’s hard for us to wrap our minds around that because we’ve been so hurt and wounded by other people in our life, just from living life.

It doesn’t matter who you are or how old you are, you’ve been hurt and wounded by somebody or something that’s happened to you. Just recognizing that character of God is so different that we can trust him, we can rest, we can let go. But sometimes it means that we have to do the hard work of surrendering and letting go and trusting and embracing that God is here and is with us in the midst of this.

Jessica: Yes, I realized along this journey that I couldn’t actually surrender. I couldn’t even surrender in my own strength because you have these faulty beliefs. It could be because of trauma, like with me experiencing sexual abuse, especially being so young. I was under two. I mean, that shaped your worldview like nothing else does.

And I realized I genuinely don’t know how to trust you. I don’t know how to let this go. And he’s so beautiful and so kind. He gave me the power and the strength that I needed to even do that. That’s why I love to encourage and try and share this hope that you can do any of it on your own. And that’s actually wonderful.

We don’t have to, he doesn’t expect this to you. The other day I was reading, I can’t remember what book in the scripture it is. You hear about the Holy Spirit being our advocate. Well, the scripture also references Jesus as being an advocate as well. And I looked up the definition of an advocate, and one of the definitions was one who comes alongside.

That’s good. That just, it just gave me so much more hope, and it was so much more confirmation that I don’t have to do this life by myself. Paul said that I will boast all the more in my weaknesses, my sufferings, when I’m weak, He’s strong. His power has made perfect in weakness. I don’t wish mental illness on anybody or physical illness or any suffering.

I do believe, though, that when we come face to face with our weakness as humans, it’s beautiful because that’s when we really experience God in a sweeter, in a deeper way. I believe at least. That’s been my experience.

Carrie:  Awesome. Thank you, Jessica, for being so willing and open to sharing your story, and I’m glad that you have gotten a variety of different support along the way, whether it was people just loving you, even when they didn’t understand everything, to getting more specific help medically and discipleship help through the church.

It sounds like God has really used a variety of different things in your life to bring you. to where God wants you to be. So thank you for being here and sharing all of that. 

Jessica: Yes, thank you for having me.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Find out how you can practice mindfulness as a Christian.

5 Ways Therapy Can Make OCD Worse

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD.

Usually, when people talk about mental health therapy, they refer to therapy making things better. This is what all therapists and clients hope for. However, can therapy make OCD worse? The short answer is yes. Let’s look at the five different ways OCD can be made worse by therapy.

1. The therapist misdiagnoses OCD as Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD) or something else.

Unfortunately, it often takes years for a person struggling with OCD to receive a proper diagnosis. Oftentimes, it’s difficult for individuals struggling with OCD to open up about the thoughts they are having that they may label as “bad” or “crazy.” They may have obsessions or fears about going into a mental hospital. They often present with a complaint of being anxious. Unless further assessment is done such as a YBOC II, OCD may go undiagnosed. A proper diagnosis is crucial for proper treatment.

2. The therapist uses logic with OCD thoughts.

 If a therapist is not trained in OCD, they may challenge the thought or provide logic to a client’s concern. For example, telling a client with contamination OCD to remind themselves that they cannot get AIDS from using a public toilet or telling a client with relationship OCD to remind themselves that offending someone is not the end of the world. Individuals with OCD know how irrational their thought processes are when they are in a moment of clarity. However, intrusive thoughts don’t respond well to logic. When someone is dealing with OCD, using a public toilet or offending someone can feel intensely distressful. This type of approach will typically leave the client with more shame, frustration, and disconnection from the therapist.   

3. The therapist provides excessive reassurance.

Therapists naturally want to be a voice of calm and reason for clients. Even good therapists can fall into the trap of reassuring their clients too much. If a client tells a story about something hurtful they did towards their spouse and says, “Does that mean I don’t love my spouse?” A therapist without training in OCD might reassure the client that based on conversations they’ve had with client, it seems like they love and care for their spouse. Instead, therapists who specialize in OCD will help clients recognize thoughts as OCD and learn to sit with the discomfort of uncertainty. 

4. The therapist fails to be trauma informed.

Trauma amplifies OCD symptoms. Therefore, treating past trauma or childhood wounding experiences (attachment issues, lack of nurture received, etc) can lead to a reduction in OCD symptoms. I have seen this time and time again in my own practice and heard the same from other trauma informed therapists as well. I’ve treated clients whose PTSD from childhood was triggered by exposures completed in Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) therapy. Once the PTSD became the focus of treatment, the clients deal with less intrusive thoughts and are able to dismiss them more easily.

Therapists who are strict behaviorists or strict ERP therapists may be so focused on changing present behavior that they fail to make a connection between global elements like the need for control, over dependency on others, or lack of confidence in decision making as being connected to past trauma and attachment experiences. When these global issues are taken into consideration and targeted, individuals will respond differently to intrusive thoughts. One of the issues with OCD is that the obsessional themes can morph and individuals can be playing exposure wac-a-mole if they don’t get to deeper level core issues. 

5. The therapist is insensitive to a client’s religious or spiritual beliefs.

As a therapist with Christian faith who sees many Christian clients, I have unfortunately heard stories about therapists banning clients from praying, asking them to state things they know are not in line with their belief system (for religious OCD), asking them to look at pornography (exposure for sexual obsessions), or dismissing/invalidating concerns about sin or hell. Clients who feel like their beliefs are not respected or understood are less likely to follow through with treatment recommendations. The International OCD Foundation contains guidelines for religiously sensitive exposures.

While therapy can make OCD worse, there is hope! OCD is treatable often by combining therapy and medications. When choosing a therapist, ask about their training in OCD, specific treatment approaches, and how often they see clients with OCD.

Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP of By The Well Counseling is a Licensed Professional Counselor who specializes in helping clients with trauma, anxiety and OCD get to a deeper level of healing through EMDR via in person and online counseling across Tennessee and EMDR intensive therapy sessions. Carrie is the host of the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast, which is a welcome place for struggling Christians to reduce shame, increase hope, and develop healthier connections with God and others.