Author: Carrie Bock

I am a Christ follower, wife, and mother. I seek to bring a calm, compassionate, and hopeful approach to my practice. I am direct and transparent, ensuring no guessing games or hidden analyses. I believe in taking my own advice before sharing it with clients as we strive towards physical and emotional health together. I’ve been a licensed professional counselor since 2009, but I’m still learning every day. I’ve been practicing EMDR since 2013 and became an EMDR consultant in 2019, which is the highest level of training in EMDR. I also host the podcast “Christian Faith and OCD.” This started with a hesitant “yes” to God in 2020, and has grown into a world wide ministry.

87. OCD FAQ with Carrie and Dr. Kelley Kleppinger

Written by Carrie Bock on February 1, 2023. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In today’s episode, I’m joined by my friend Dr. Kelley Kleppinger in a Frequently Ask Questions (FAQ) session on OCD.

Episode Highlights:

Here are some of the questions we tackled:

What exactly is OCD
What is the difference between anxiety and OCD?
How long does it take for someone to get diagnosed with OCD?
Why can’t we seem to take our thoughts captive?
How does someone know if it’s the Holy Spirit or OCD?
How can we help someone with OCD?

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 87 of Christian Faith and OCD! I’m your host, Carrie Bock, and today, we have a special episode where Dr. Kelley Kleppinger joins me to tackle some of the most common questions people have about OCD. Dr. Kelley and I connected through a mutual friend and have enjoyed developing a meaningful friendship alongside our husbands.

I’m excited for today’s conversation because Kelley will be asking me some questions—questions many of you might have about what OCD looks like, how it intertwines with faith, and how we can find hope through it all.

This is going to be an insightful conversation where we’ll dive deep into topics like scrupulosity, mental compulsions, and how to separate intrusive thoughts from sin. We’ll also explore what it looks like to walk through OCD as a Christian and how trusting in God’s grace plays a pivotal role in the healing process.

I hope you enjoy today’s conversation as much as we enjoyed recording it! Don’t forget to check out the free resource at carriebock.com/resources/.

Explore Related Episode:

139. Is There a Test for OCD?

Transcript

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 87. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and we have decided at the beginning of the year to take things back to the basics a little bit. So we’re doing an OCD FAQ episode with my friend Dr. Kelley Kleppinger. Kelley and I have been friends for a little while, we were introduced by a mutual friend of ours.

We’ve had fun and going on some double dates with our husbands and things like that. I also wanted to let everyone know that I have a course called Get Out of My Head, coming out in about a month, and I’m very excited about this. It’s specifically designed for Christians who are struggling with OCD.

There’s lots of misinformation out there when it comes to the church and OCD people trying to apply general principles of anxiety to OCD treatment maybe that is found in the Bible, and we’ll talk about that a little bit today. If you guys would be interested in a free download of some things that every Christian with O C D needs to know, you can go to hope for anxiety and ocd.com/free.

And that will also make sure that you are getting updates about the course coming out. Kelley, tell us a little bit about yourself and what caused you to be interested in doing this episode with me because I kind of put out an SOS on there.

Dr. Kelley: I have been in education for 18 years and in those 18 years I have had a lot of children with a lot of different issues. And anxiety is the number one thing that I see in my children right now. So dealing with that on a daily basis definitely made me curious about your podcast and what you do and how you can help people. And also just in general, I think we all deal with a level of anxiety at times. I know I do.

We all did during the pandemic, and your strategies are great for people across that spectrum as well. It is comforting to know that you’re not in it by yourself and that there are things that you can do. Just curious to learn more about it.

Carrie: Awesome. I have recruited Kelley because we’ve decided that Steve has been my Fillin person enough, and so I do much better having people ask me questions or dialogue with me than just solo episodes.

My solo episodes, if you all have listened to them, tend to be very short. It’s just kind of like I get the information out there and I’m done, but I can provide a lot more information and talk more when I’m dialoguing with people. It’s just my nature and what’s a little bit easier for me, I’ve found. What’s the first question that you have? The list today? I kind of gave some questions of things that are frequently asked about OCD.

What is OCD?

Dr. Kelley: Well, the first one is down to the basics. What is OCD?

Carrie: OCD is a mental health disorder that is characterized by someone who has obsessions and compulsions. We can break that down a little bit more.

Obsessions, we use that word sometimes, you might say, I’m obsessed about Kentucky sports. Or someone might say, I’m really obsessed with this musician or musical artist. But when we’re talking about obsessions in an OCD sense, we’re talking about intrusive thoughts. That you can’t seem to get outta your mind.

It’s like they’re stuck in there like chewing gum on the bottom of your shoe that you can’t get off, and they’re very repetitive, or they have repetitive themes. People can have a variety of different obsessions. It can be obsessed about germs. That’s what people commonly refer to or know about with OCD.

They’re a Hollywood picture, it’s someone like Monk that’s going around and he can’t touch the door handle. He is gotta use a handkerchief or something like that. Things have to be in a certain order in his house. That’s not really, OCD is much broader than that. So you can have obsessions about cleanliness, or sometimes it’ll be referred to as contamination.

You can also have obsessions about relationships, and we’re gonna talk about that more in-depth on the next podcast that comes out around Valentine’s Day, relationship OCD and anxiety. And those look more, am I with the right person? What if I marry the wrong person? Do these flaws mean that we’re not meant to be together when really it’s just kind of normal?

Maybe miscommunications, mishaps. And they’re kind of stereotypical relationships if you would look at them from the outside in. It may look like in friendships, having obsessions about, did I upset somebody? Did I offend someone with what I said? The compulsive piece of that would be replaying conversations over and over and over again.

People can have obsessions about God, Jesus, religion, moral sets called scrupulosity. And we’ve had some guests that have shared some personal stories on the show. I encourage you guys to go back and maybe listen to some of those with Mitzi Van Cleve was on our show talking about that a little bit.

Typically, OCD gets attached to, what you are most passionate about. People can have obsessions also about sexual things, homosexuality. They’ll be like being concerned about if they’re homosexual or not. Being concerned about abusing children harm OCD is really common, even like pedophilia OCD, where people are concerned that they’re gonna sexually abuse a child.

That doesn’t mean that they want to do those things. So there’s a difference between an intrusive thought and a desire. But obviously, these things can be very shameful and scary, so people don’t want to talk about it, especially in the context of the church. Who wants to go say like, oh, hey, I’ve been having thoughts about harming children. And then somebody would probably say, okay, let’s not put you in the nurse. Or even though it could be a person that really loves kids, and they may have their own kids and care very much about them, but live in a constant state of fear of harming those children. When we talk about obsessions and compulsions. Compulsions tend to be things like checking door locks, or I gotta make sure go back in and make sure I unplug the curling iron because the house might burn down.

I’ve gotta make sure that the stove turned off and the TV’s unplugged. Sometimes we would call them rituals that someone may get involved in just to leave their house. So I’ve had clients who come to see me because they’re late to work repetitively, and obviously that’s causing problems with their job because they’re taking 30 minutes to check everything, or they’re leaving the house and then actually coming back and going in the house and checking and make sure all this stuff is turned off.

Sometimes with harm OCD people are afraid that they’ve hit somebody. Like they’ve actually accidentally hit a pedestrian and they will circle their car back around and go check to make sure that they didn’t hit anybody. So that’s another form of checking. Obviously these things are very distressful.

Unfortunately, sometimes we use OCD a little bit more lightly in our society. Like, oh, that person’s so OCD. And what we really mean is they’re particular or they like things a certain way. They’re not actually living with a high level of distress. When you’ve been diagnosed with OCD, you’re typically spending about an hour on some of this stuff, or more I think is the cutoff for the D SM diagnosis.

And some compulsions can be mental. We don’t always see them, and that can really lead to OCD going undiagnosed for a while because there may be certain words that people will repeat in their head to reduce this sense of anxiety brought on by the obsession. They will pray certain prayers, especially confessing.

Confessing can be another compulsion that happens with people, especially happens in children feel the need to go up to you and tell you something bad that they did, and that’s the obsession they’re having in their head. I did something wrong. I have to go tell somebody and get this out of my head. And even reassurance-seeking can be a compulsion in itself, which a lot of people have who have OCD and don’t realize that this is what they’re doing.

They’ll go to their spouse, say if they’re having relationship obsessions and go, honey, do you still really love me? If you were gonna marry me again, would you still do that? Are we okay? Like is our relationship good. And the spouse will be going, yeah. Oh, what’s going on with you? And then they’re probably thinking, is everything good?

I thought it was, but not sure. That’s what you said. That’s the very long explanation of what OCD is. And I went into a lot of different examples because there are so many people who are probably even listening to this and think, well, I just have anxiety. But really when we start to peel back the layers, they have OCD characteristic.

Dr. Kelley: , I just learned a lot. I had no idea there were that many layers and ways that it can go. Just like you said, I’ve had the Hollywood version in my head of what OCD is because people just throw it around so loosely. It is not what we think of all the time. So that was an explanation, obviously, with that explanation, anxiety goes along with that. So what is the difference between OCD and anxiety?

What is the Difference OCD and Anxiety?

Carrie: There’s a lot of overlap. I think just in terms of body sensations, people with OCD still get some of the same, discomfort in terms of their body. They may have body tension, heart rate may increase, they may feel off.

They don’t necessarily always are as tuned in or as honed in on what’s happening in their body as people with anxiety because they’re so used to going in their head and thinking through. And that’s a lot of times the way they solve problems is kind of going in their head. So that’s why sometimes the somatic therapy can really help them kind of sit with some of the body distress.

Learning mindfulness practices, which is one thing I’m gonna talk about in the OCD course as well. What really is mindfulness breaking that down, and how do you practice it? How do you learn to tolerate that distress that comes up with OCD? I would say with anxiety. Anxiety tends to respond at times to thought challenges.

I can sit with a person with anxiety and we can work through certain things mentally, where I’ll say, okay, so you’re afraid of that. You’re afraid of losing your job. What’s the worst case scenario if you lose your job? Okay, if I lose my job, I’m gonna lose my house. I’m gonna become homeless. Next thing you know, they’re on the side of the street begging for money, and then you’re like, “Okay, how likely is that that’s going to happen?” Because you’ve told me you have some support in your life and other people you can depend on, and people that would help you out if you were really in a bad spot. And they’ll be able to kind of rationalize and realize, yeah, you’re probably right. You probably don’t need to be afraid of losing my job.

And then we’ll go through and we’ll talk about, well, you have some pretty marketable skills, in your field. You’ve been in your field for 10 years is what you’ve told me, so you probably could get another job, right? And they’re like, oh yeah, I could. But if somebody had some kind of intrusive thought it, probably wouldn’t be like, oh, maybe I’ll lose my job.

It probably would be more like, I think I’ve offended my boss. and you could talk with them and you could say some of those same things. Well, you’ve told me that you and your boss have a good relationship. Yeah, I know. What if I just said the wrong thing and he’s really upset and he’s really mad with me right now.

They can’t ever get off of it with the logical reasoning. It’s just not gonna happen because they’ll go back into that loop and almost it can make it stronger. It’s like arguing with back and forth with OCD or trying to rationalize with it can actually increase it and cause more problems. Whereas in a CBT type therapy, cognitive behavioral with anxiety, we can say, okay, tell me about your thought and how that influences your feelings and your behavior whereas with OCD, it’s just kind of, they can’t really thought challenge the same way. It just doesn’t seem to work. And then they get kind of more distressed when you try to do that. That’s one of the main differences. And then I would say too, with anxiety versus OCD, just treatment-wise with anxiety, you’re teaching people really to calm down in the moment.

You can teach them relaxation skills someone with OCD, you’re more kind of teaching them to ride the wave a little bit. You can do that some with anxiety, there’s some overlap, but it’s more about learning to tolerate that distress and knowing that you don’t have to act on it so that you can get out of that loop.

I think there’s some avoidance is overlap. Both people with anxiety and OCD tend to avoid things. There’s definitely are some similarities and differences.

Dr. Kelley: Obviously, therapy can help both OCD and anxiety. You said teach people to learn to ride the wave or push through or tell them that they’re okay.

If someone’s living with it and they don’t know it, you know, to me it’s really sad that obviously, it takes so long for them to get diagnosed. Why is that the case?

Carrie: I think about an average of seven years for an individual to be diagnosed with OCD. What I really believe that is due to lack of education, where we have these Hollywood models, and even people that are famous that have OCD look at, like Howie Mandel won’t shake hands with people. And he’s been great about being open about his OCD, but once again, that’s kind of a stereotype. I don’t know if anybody knows that Mark Summers who did Double Dare actually had OCD and it had to do with cleanliness.

He wrote a book about it. I don’t remember the book, but we’ll put it in the show notes for you. He used to comb the fringes of his rug. I mean, that’s how distressed he was about having to have things clean. And when he was on Double Dare, obviously it was a messy show. Anybody remembers that old Nickelodeon show?

I think he takes his shirt off at the end of every show, and the producers hated that he did that. He talks about that in his book as well. So these are pictures that we have out in public. But nobody famous maybe is talking about their relationship obsessions or about their sexual obsessions that they’ve had.

Some people have definitely talked about scrupulosity in the Christian realm. We have some personal stories like I said before, especially with some of the more shameful thoughts. People aren’t talking about it. It’s not on parents and teacher’s radar because a lot of times kids and teens will start to show symptoms.

And even when I talk with adults, they didn’t necessarily realize that it’s a time, but they’ll be able to go back and say, oh yeah, when I was in school. I used to have all my work perfectly or really bubble in the answers just the right way, or there were certain things that they used to redo work or erase holes in the paper because they erased so much.

Some of those things have occurred or they confessed a lot to their parents, and their parents just thought, why is my child doing this? But they didn’t know that was a symptom of OCD, so they didn’t know to necessarily connect to that. I think people haven’t picked up on it as much and what the signs and symptoms are. And then the other piece is that, unfortunately, and this is a sad piece to me as well, is that even counselors who treat anxiety don’t always know how to distinguish when it’s anxiety versus when it’s OCD. I just talked to kind of a local therapist recently because she had a situation. She said I think this person might be showing signs of OCD and can I just consult with you?

And we did that over the phone, just like, Hey, tell me what’s going on. And I can tell you if this lines up with what I’ve seen or signs or symptoms because it is a little bit different. And so most commonly what will happen is people will say, I’m anxious who have OCD? I’m anxious, they’ll go to therapy and tell their therapist, I’m anxious, right?

So then they’ll start to give them suggestions or treatment for anxiety. I had one client who told me that she was in therapy for two years and she goes, now that I look back on it, all I was doing was reassurance. Seeking from the therapist, you basically tell me I’m gonna be okay. I have all these worries and all these concerns, so that’s a sad scenario to me, which is why it’s important if people do have OCD to ask a therapist that you’re looking at seeing.

What’s your experience level been? How often do you see people with OCD? What’s your training like? What’s your approach? Ask a lot of questions because unfortunately there are people out there who will say “Yes, oh, I deal with OCD,” but they really don’t, unfortunately. We don’t get a ton of training in graduate school on this.

We get kind of the broad overview, the large brushstrokes, and then what happens after you get a school is your experience level. And your continuing education really help you narrow down what your focus is and the types of clients that you end up wanting to see or attracting or end up working with.

I think a lot of people think that we all do the same thing, and that’s not really true.

Why Do I Need Help? Why Can’t I Take My Thoughts Captive

Dr. Kelley: If I’m putting myself in the shoes of someone that has OCD or thinks that they may have OCD when they’re thinking, why can’t I just take care of this myself? Why do I need help? Why can’t I seem to take my thoughts captive?

Carrie: I think this is a common question for Christians because, they’ve gone to church and said, Hey, I’m worried about this. And people have told them just common things that we tell people for anxiety in the church. “Cast your cares on the Lord, pray about this. And the God of peace will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.”

Take your thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. So there’s this shame that comes when someone tries to apply that to their OCD and is like, oh no, like it’s not working. I guess one of the things I wanna do with the show is really reduce shame and say, “That’s not you, that’s not your fault.” That’s your brain malfunctioning actually, and that was something I meant to bring up earlier. We were talking about what is OCD is that there are certain parts of the brain that they can actually see on scans that are overactive. That’s just a function of a fallen body that none of our bodies are perfect.

Sometimes things go wrong with our brain, unfortunately, and we’re not able to take that thought captive. And I think with OCD it’s recognizing, “Hey, that’s an intrusion.” And some people will even think too, oh, this is spiritual warfare. This is the devil telling me I’m gonna harm children. Or this is the devil telling me that I’m homosexual when I’m really not, and causing this high level of distress internally.”

I don’t know. You could make arguments about what’s spiritual and what’s not spiritual, and I certainly will leave that for people to judge themselves. But we are looking at a brain condition and we shouldn’t feel bad if you’re struggling with this brain condition.

Dr. Kelley: You were talking about the spiritual connection and what the church says. How does someone know if it’s the Holy Spirit or OCD? Because I can see people getting that blurred.

Carrie: Absolutely. That’s probably one of the biggest questions that I get from Christian clients is how do I know if this thought that’s entering my head is something the Holy Spirit is telling me to do or wants me to question? Or is it something that’s OCD related? What I would say for that is you have to look at, based on the Bible, how is it that God speaks to us? We talk about the still small voice of the Holy Spirit, that even in the Old Testament when God said he was gonna speak to Moses and there was all this big stuff that happened.

There was a lot of thunder or lightning. I can’t remember all the things, but, and God was not in that. But then there was a still small voice, and that’s where God was. OCD tends to be very loud and obnoxious. You need to listen to me. You need to listen to me now, and you need to go do something and you have to do it right now, whereas when you learn to discern God’s voice comes from a place of love and kindness, there’s a verse that says, it’s God’s kindness that leads us to repentance. If God is pointing out something, for example, that we need to confess, that’s a very gentle and loving way that he would do that. “Hey, you hurt that person’s feelings and you need to go to them and apologize.” And then from that conviction, if we did go and apologize, ask for forgiveness. We would expect to feel better. Whereas somebody that’s confessing because they have OCD, that’s not gonna make them feel better. So that’s kind of another indication. If you’re feeling, I think God wants me to pray more, but then you pray more and you don’t feel a sense of relief or you don’t feel that you’re following God still.

Then that’s an indication that might be OCD. If it’s loud, obnoxious, you gotta do it now it’s probably most likely OCD. If you’re in a quiet still moment with the Lord and you feel like he’s telling you something and there is a sense of belief when you do it, then that’s probably an indication that it’s God.

God doesn’t speak to us through OCD. God speaks to us through his spirit. I just wanna jump in here and say too, before, it sounds like I’m talking too much about trusting your feelings related to the Holy Spirit. You do have to make sure that what you believe you’re being told by the Holy Spirit is aligned with scripture and with things that God has clearly commanded us knowing that the Holy Spirit is not gonna ask you to do something in opposition to those things.

How Can We Help Students Who Have These Tendencies?

Dr. Kelley: One question I’ve had throughout the interview as an educator is, how can I help my students who have these tendencies? Because the student population I work with, we do have a lot of anxiety. I don’t have any diagnosed OCD at this time, but I’m definitely seeing some of these tendencies.

So what can I do as an educator to help my students succeed if I see these characteristic?

Carrie: Is your school kind of familiar with the growth mindset versus, I can’t remember what the other piece is?

Dr. Kelley: We’re very much a growth mindset campus.

Carrie: I think that is really helpful. Helping kids know that mistakes often are how we learn, especially when you’re young, it’s okay to make mistakes.

Normalizing that because there is some perfectionism that can come with anxiety and OCD. I think I’m a bit of a recovering perfectionist myself. I want things to be done right and I want it to be done right the first time. I can definitely empathize with that kid that asked for another piece of paper because they messed up on their drawing.

Maybe teaching them, it’s still gonna be a great drawing even if you don’t feel like it came out the way that you wanted it to. Or maybe limiting them. If they’re the kid that wants five pieces of paper, say, I’m only gonna give you two. That’s gonna be it. I’ll give you one extra piece of paper. Or that kid that doesn’t wanna start, maybe because they don’t think they can do it, or they don’t think it’s gonna be perfect.

Just really encouraging them like, “Hey, let’s just get started and see where this goes,” or sometimes you kind of, depending on the kid and what motivates them and those types of things, because sometimes kids with OCD can look more defiant than they actually are. They’re not intentionally trying to be defiant. They’re just really distressed internally. And so if you find a way to validate that, I think that’s important. I’ve noticed that it upsets you or that it really bothers you when you don’t feel like your paper is perfect, or I noticed that you don’t like touching the substance because it just feels too sticky.

Then that will help feel like, “Oh, okay, she gets it, and we have the assignment with the sticky substance. So how can we help you be able to work through this concern? Essentially what we’re trying to do, either with anxiety and OCD is not push people to the brink of panic. We’re trying to push people to the brink of discomfort because a lot of times what we do is when we start to feel discomfort as humans, we just back up and we go, no thank you.

Check out. I don’t wanna do that. That’s uncomfortable. I was working on something for the course and talking about physical therapy. One of the things that I learned going through physical therapy that they told me is that a tight muscle is a weak muscle. So if you’ve had a tight muscle in your body and you know what that feels like, you go, “I’m moving that, no thank you.

I don’t wanna stretch that out. I don’t want to, wait you’re asking me to lift my leg, but my leg hurts right now.” Well, your leg hurts because it’s weak. So can we do five repetitions with no weight to strengthen your leg? But if we put some weight on there and we expect you to lift 10 pounds, then you are gonna be in pain and it’s not gonna be good for you.

So maybe just the physical therapy analogy helps a little bit with kind of, and you have to be really good as the teacher or the parent or the spouse or whoever to know what’s gonna be a little bit of a push. And what’s gonna be, oh no, we’re now having like a full-blown panic attack.

Dr. Kelley: Excellent advice.

Carrie: Does that help?

Dr. Kelley: It really does especially the physical therapy analogy. And like you said too, just validating them saying, I see this. And even the way we say it makes a difference because I think over time in education, the way we talk to children has changed. Some of us are still stuck in that old mindset when we have to push forward into the new, to really better understand our kids now and what they are experiencing in their minds because we want them to be successful.

Carrie: Realistically, when you have 20 plus kids in a class and you just need to get it done, there are times where you don’t have all the time to sit down and maybe give the one-on-one attention and you just wanna say, just sit down, just do what I thought you didn’t do.

Dr. Kelley: We all definitely have those days, but there’s also those windows of opportunity where we can cause we want to see them all be successful.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Kelley has listened to our show before. She knows that at the end of every episode, we like to share a story of hope. Which is a time that you have received hope from God or another person. What do you have for us today?

Dr. Kelley: There’s so many to pick from, I have to say because if you sit down and think about all the ways that God touches your life every single day, that list should be miles long. But the ones coming to mind right now. Is it from work at work In December, we do Secret Santa, which is fun. We’re trying to run around and be sneaky and not find out who has our names.

And December is tough in the educational world. We’re tired. Anytime we get close to a break, we’re tired, we’re exhausted because the kids amp up and our energy is down. My secret Santa giving me perfect stuff and I was like, wow, this is really cool. But the end was what really got me. It turned out to be one of my friends, which I did not know.

But in her final gift when she revealed herself. She wrote the nicest note I think I’ve ever received, and talked about how much I love others and how much I give, and I was just floored. I took it home and I showed it to my husband and I said, this is not me. Why is she saying these things about me? Because I feel like my job is to pour into other people and give to other people all the time.

So it’s nice and very humbling when God gives you that moment of, but wait, you’re doing good things and people appreciate it, and I see you. And it was just one of those nice moments. I still have the cards sitting on my desk because it’s one of the things I like to do at school is write cards to people because we all need encouragement.

So it was just nice to receive that back and God just going, it’s okay. You’re good. You’re gonna make it till Christmas break, and I did. So something small, but still a reminder that he’s there and he uses us all the time to encourage each other.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s really cool because we have a hard time. We don’t have objectivity, right?

This is why people go to therapy because when you’re in the middle of your stuff, whatever your stuff is, a lot of times you can’t see the forest for the trees. So when you’re in the middle of stressful work situation, it’s nice for somebody else to say , okay, but this is my perspective of it and this is what I see you doing.

So that’s really nice that she was able to do that for you. Also because she was your friend. She knew what gifts to give you, so that made it easier for her.

Dr. Kelley: Yes. My pastor was talking about last Sunday, if your God lays it on your heart, if you think, oh, I should call this person, I should write this note. Just do it.

Don’t think about it. Just do it. And I feel like that was a great example and a great reminder of just be there for each other and show my love to everyone.

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on our show and relieving Steve of having to be the fill-in person all the time. He doesn’t mind. I just figure people might get sick of hearing from Steve. I don’t know.

Dr. Kelley: What was great to be here. I enjoyed it and had a lot of fun and I learned a lot.

Carrie: If you are new to our show, I want you all to know where you can find us. Head over to Hope for anxiety and ocd.com. You can hit me up on the contact form if you have any show suggestions, guests you really want me to interview, or just wanna tell me what you think about the show and anything that we can improve on, or questions that you have about OCD that maybe we didn’t cover today, maybe I can stick those in the course for you, or we can have another episode sometime before too long. Thank you so much for listening everybody.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

86. How to Catch Your Teens Anxiety Before it Gets Out of Control with Gina Nelson, LCSW, CDW

Written by Carrie Bock on January 18, 2023. Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 86. How to Catch Your Teens Anxiety Before it Gets Out of Control with Gina Nelson, LCSW, CDW

Today on the show, I’m joined by Gina Nelson, a licensed clinical social worker and creator of Combating Teen Anxiety–her proven 10-step method to reduce anxiety in teens.

Gina and I talk about how to catch your teen’s anxiety before it gets out of control.

How Gina got involved in working with teens and parents
The difference in anxiety in children and adults
Common causes of anxiety in teens
How does social media contribute to anxiety and distress in teens
How perfectionism affects children and teens
Things that parents do that are not helpful for their teen’s mental health
Signs that a teen may need professional help with their anxiety

www.combatingteenanxiety.com

Related resources:

57. Parenting A Teen in Crisis with Aaron Huey

Transcript

Carrie: Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 86. I’m your host, Carrie Bock. This month’s episodes are about anxiety, and next months are gonna be about OCD. So today on the show we have an interview with Gina Nelson on how to catch your teen’s anxiety before it gets out of control. Before we get into the interview, we want to give away a t-shirt. Drum roll please!

We give away t-shirts randomly to our email subscribers. Today’s winner is number 40, and that happens to be Sasha. So it doesn’t look like Sasha has been opening our emails, but hopefully when we email her personally and remind her that she’s on the email list and see what size T-shirt she wants, hopefully our emails will be capturing her attention a little bit more.

We’ll see. So Sasha, you have won a Hope for Anxiety, and OCD T-shirt. This is not a scam. It’s for real.

All right, let’s dive into the interview now.

Gina Nelson’s Background and Areas of Expertise

Carrie: Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Gina: Gina Nelson. I’ve been a licensed clinical social worker for 22 years now and practicing both California and in Idaho, native to California, and I’m certified in EMDR.

So I do a lot of work with anxiety and kind of some trauma work with people. And probably the majority of my practice is actually perfectionistic high achievement-driven adults and teens. And I’m also certified in the Daring Way, which is Brene Brown’s curriculum for the Daring Way which it’s all about shame, resilience, and working with parents and teens or adults and teens just on how to manage shame and deal with vulnerability and how that comes out in anxiety.

Discussion on Anxiety and Perfectionism

Carrie: Yes. There’s a lot of perfectionists out there.

Gina: Yes. I like to call myself a recovering one, but it’s one of those things I have to work on, on a regular basis as well and be mindful of.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Tell us how you got involved in working with teens and parents.

Gina: Sure. I told you, I’m gonna give you my cliff version of it, but essentially, I mean, I was an anxious teen.

I grew up in a house with a mom who was pretty anxious, although the word anxiety was never used. And she was really good at kind of masking her perfectionism and things with alcohol, which was kind of her version of how to tame it because the idea of mental health wasn’t an acceptable topic in our house, and it was more probably of a shame trigger now looking back to even identify anxiety as a problem, if you will.

Carrie: Right.

Gina: And so I didn’t really know how to cope with that. And in fact, there was so much going on just in my own house and my own perfectionism and achievement-driven characteristics in school that actually about my sophomore year, I lost a chunk of hair in the back of my head, it was larger than a silver dollar and I kind of became this kind of like identified like, what’s wrong with you?

How come you can’t manage things? I kind of took on that sense of, wow, what’s wrong? And so, you know, it wasn’t until like my college years when I got out of that home and I started thinking, okay, I’m gonna manage this anxiety in a different way. And like many of my clients today, I became kind of more the perfectionistic, task-driven achievement goal seeker who just kept, I managed that anxiety in that way.

And when I worked as a social worker initially, the first 20 years I spent in hospitals working in trauma ICU with medical crisis, that my own anxiety in those settings was completely like it disappear. I used to call myself the calm in the storm, and I thought, this is so strange. Like I can sit around all this chaos and trauma and be with people when people are dying in a code.

And I didn’t have anxiety in that. I was calm, but in my own home life, that wasn’t necessarily the case. And so it was starting to show up in that kind of frenetic energy that I remembered as a kid. And I thought, oh, this is not what I want from my kids. And I had to recognize that I had to start doing something to manage my own anxiety because it was kind of being reflected on their behaviors and within the home.

How Gina Got Involved in Working with Teens and Parents

And quite frankly, I think we all tried to swing the pendulum a different way from some of the stuff in our parent world. So I thought, okay, I’m not gonna be like this anxious person, but in turn, I actually had my own anxiety and I just was managing it differently. When I got certified in Brene’s work in 2017 and really, you know, had first read her work in 2013 with Darren Greatly, it really was the first time the word shame and the recognition of how I managed anxiety was normalized by somebody like me.

So it was, that was kind of the beginning of this journey. And so I thought when I opened my practice in 2017 and was pulling away from more than medical and doing more practice, of course, attracted people that were like me, right? I attracted a lot of corporate professionals and people who were trying to manage their anxiety or thought they were managing their anxiety until they couldn’t, and they also got teens that were in that same scenario.

And when I started working with the teens. There was just such this aha of,” “Oh my gosh!” These adults who are in their forties and fifties are now coming to terms with it. What if we could catch these teens in their high school years or their middle school years when all the shame stuff is happening and all these issues?

And so it kind of was this, sense of these kids were coming from perfectionistic parents. A lot of ’em were, at least the ones in my practice were high achievement kids. And they had a lot of pressure on themselves. And so with that, I thought, okay, I’m gonna be working with them and with these adults, and we’re gonna see if we can kind of really change the trajectory of these teens course so that they don’t end up in their forties and fifties going, oh my gosh, I’ve spent all these years of my life trying to manage this anxiety and I’m not living in peace or accessing that real calm.

Carrie: Working from the family system approach, like you’re talking about with working from the parent side and the teen side is so helpful because you near round someone that’s anxious, you’re more likely to be anxious yourself. It’s like that energy is already in the room.

Gina: I call it that frenetic energy, right? That everybody is trying to balance that whoever that phonetically anxious person is and however that manifest for them, whether it’s anger or you know, screaming or just control whatever it is, everybody else in the environment is trying to adapt to that.

Similarities and Differences in Anxiety between Teens and Adults

Carrie: How does anxiety look similar and different in terms of, because a lot of times when we’re talking about mental health disorders, it’ll look different in kids and teens than it does in adults.

So what have you seen as far as how it usually presents in teenagers versus adults? I mean, I’m sure there’s some overlap in similarity, but some differences.

Gina: Yes. I mean, obviously, the similarities are that, from my perspective, not dealing with shame and not acknowledging kind of the shame that’s behind some of the emotions that lead to the thoughts and the perception of what’s happening in the environment is really kind of the cause for both teens and adults that everybody’s trying to run from the feelings they don’t wanna sit with them.

And the commonality I see with both teens and adults is just that they don’t know how to access that kind of parasympathetic or ventral vagal, if you will, in my polyvagal theory work. It’s just that sense of relaxation and sitting with the emotions. For the teens, of course, there’s a couple different things.

There’s the manifestation of what they’re seeing in their home with their parents. There’s a lot of high expectations that the teens that I’m seeing now, most of them are coming from parents who are highly successful, very busy, have them in an extraordinary amount of stimulation with all of the external extracurriculars, I should say, activities.

And so there’s so much pressure to perform, whether it’s athletic or it’s coming from the academic side. And so the kids are not talking about their feelings and there’s this kind of expectation, hi, you know, mom and dad are doing great. Look it. They do all of these things. They never sit. A lot of my teens will say, mom and dad never rest.

The Impact of Social Media on Teen Anxiety

They’re always busy. They’re always buzzing around doing something, and that’s what it looks like to be successful. So they’re taking on some of that same kind of energy, and then the other thing, of course, with teens right now, obviously, there’s such a different environment with access to social media and what’s out there.

I think everybody really wants to belong and to connect. But for teens right now, that sense of connection and belonging is such a struggle, and covid, just exacerbated that for so many of them when they were more isolated and alone. Working with my teens, a lot of ’em will say things like Snapchat is a real problem for them because they might say, maybe invite a friend to go do something, and their friend says no, or they get rejected, and then they’ll see, they’ll track them because I guess you know, they can track on these apps and so then they’ll say, oh, their friend actually was with these other friends.

Then the story that they make up is, I’m being rejected. They don’t like me. There’s something wrong with me. And so it just kind of is festering in that space. So I think there’s a lot of that extra stimulation and exposure for kids. And I guess the other thing that I do see, it’s not the most common, but it’s certainly something I’ve seen quite a bit, is that parents who haven’t dealt with their own shame, If their teen becomes anxious or their teen actually gets vulnerable enough or brave enough to actually express what’s happening.

If a parent turns that and becomes more the victim in that and says things like, oh, I know I’m just a horrible parent, or I can’t do anything right for you, and then they become more of the identified patient, if you will, in the family, then the team now feels like I can’t express myself. Beacause now I’ve gotta take care of mom, or now I’ve gotta take care of dad because they can’t handle what I’m saying.

Carrie: A bit about the social media. You said you talked about being able to see what. Your friends are doing at different points or pictures being posted online or on Snapchat that wasn’t going on. When you and I were a teenager, we didn’t know what our friends were doing.

They could probably lie to us, and unless somebody else told us and ratted them out, we wouldn’t have known. But now also there’s this heavy sense of comparison that social media brings up like, oh, look at that person in my class that maybe has more than me or that person that’s, they’re more successful, they’re doing better in school, whatever the case is.

How do you see those types of things play out in terms of causing a lot of like worry and distress?

Gina: I would say they’re probably the top issue that I see with teens. I mean, we can talk about family stuff, but what’s happening in their current environment, in that social environment is their biggest pressure right now.

Yes, they are. That comparison that the not good enough is such a big piece, but it goes even deeper. I tell it’s like the onion, right? I mean, you understand that with emdr, but it’s like not good enough is here and then underneath that is I’m stupid, or I’m this, or I’m all bad or nobody likes me. I’m bad.

It just gets deeper. Something’s wrong with me. And so once they, a lot of these teens, they don’t know how to connect with their bodies. They don’t like when they say they’re anxious, I say, where do you feel that? And they can’t, A lot of ’em can’t even connect to that until we really do some body work to acknowledge that.

The sense of, don’t even know what’s going on in their body. They just use this term anxiety cuz it’s kind of the buzzword. Then with that, the thoughts just get really loud and they get to a place where they get so overwhelmed that they can’t even function. And so for some of those teens, you know now, now they’re at this space where they’re withdrawing.

The thoughts are getting really bad. I don’t fit in. I’m not good enough. I’m not this, I’m not that. And they just get stuck in this negative feedback loop. And so the social media just amplifies that depending on where they are and what story they tell themselves about what their friends really think, and the ability to go back and actually have a conversation with their friends is really hard.

Even as I’m teaching them some of these skills, that doesn’t mean the people that they’re trying to implement those skills with have any ability to hold space for that. I think that they practice skills and come out and try to be vulnerable with their friends and it doesn’t go well, or at least their perception is that their friends think they’re even more different or they’re needy or there’s something else happening, and so that just causes them to be less able to express themselves or less wanting, I guess, to really express themselves.

High Achieving Families and Running from Anxiety

Carrie: That makes a lot of sense. And I think what you’re talking about in terms of these high achieving families, where the parents are very successful and they’re very driven in their careers, and then there’s this expectation that the kids will be successful, that they’ll be taking the advanced placement classes, which require a lot more work, and then they’re involved in a sport which meets several nights a week for practice, and you have games on the weekends.

There’s not a lot. Margin in people’s lives if you’re constantly like going, going, going. And in a sense, that’s also like a way to run from the anxiety, right?

Gina: Absolutely. Again, that’s a learned behavior most likely by how the parents are managing their own anxiety. Stay busy, so I don’t have to sit again.

That is one of the things that I noticed the most is. All of my anxious clients really have a hard time sitting with relaxation, and so when even try to teach some basic things like deep breathing or connection to that parasympathetic, it’s so foreign and it’s so uncomfortable, and so they manage it by doing these other things.

In the work I do end daring way, we have this term of superpower versus kryptonite, and I like that analogy because I think for a lot of anxious people, especially the parents of my anxious teens, they might not be having panic attacks. They might not be having some of the classic symptoms that people might caught or they might not be having some of the, the same symptoms that people who are really struggling with anxiety have, so they don’t see anxiety as necessary. They kinda see anxiety as a motivator, I guess, is kind of what I hear from them. And so they see it as a little anxiety, just keeps me being successful.

It kind of becomes my superpower that I can do all these things. I can manage everything and I can be like the perfect mom, the perfect wife, the perfect employee, all of those things. And if they get validation from that, it just kind of reinforces that bar of, okay, what’s next? But the kryptonite part of it is what’s the impact of that?

What’s the impact of managing and thinking that you’ve got it all together and managing all those things when you can’t rest, when your nervous system stays in that fight and flight all the time, and those around you are experiencing that frenetic energy. So learning to be able to go, okay, how is this useful for me?

And then what’s the kryptonite? What’s the part that I need to be watchful or mindful of so that I can recognize it’s not all good? And some of it also causes problems in my social life or how I perceive myself in relation to other people.

Strategies for Managing Teen Anxiety

Carrie: Yeah, sometimes we call those survival skills. Those things that helped us get through difficult situations, helped us survive.

They also can cause problems at the same time in our life, or like you had talked about before, the things that you used to do that worked. Now all of a sudden they don’t work. I think that this is really helpful in terms of talking about clients who have been through complex trauma. A lot of times those are clients that I end up seeing.

It doesn’t feel safe to relax, so then when you try to get to that like relaxed state, this part of self comes up. That’s like uhoh danger, danger, like this is not okay. So it takes time to really be able to work through, through some of those things. Let’s talk about, I know that you see parents that really love their children that wanna help their children, and so what are some things that the parents do that are really well-meaning and good intention, but they just aren’t necessarily helpful for their teen that’s struggling with anxiety?

Gina: I think we live in a kind of fix it society, and so I think for a lot of parents, they just want to give them the how to like do this, do that. Just go be more social when they’ve got social anxiety. You just need to be exposed to more social settings and you’ll get more comfortable. What the parents are missing is just being able to sit with the emotion with the kids and like talk about where do they feel this, and what are they experiencing.

What are the thoughts that are coming up in this moment, and can we just sit there and just support them versus trying to fix it. And again, I think parents, we all want to help our kids, but it’s that sense of we have to help them by modeling how to sit with it. And so parents who can’t sit with their own discomfort or can’t even tolerate their teen’s anxiety are gonna be.

Struggling more to be able to sit and model that behavior for them of what does relaxation look like? What does it mean to look at something other than just achievement or productivity as your measure of success? What are some of those other things that we need to bring in to calm our nervous system?

Carrie: What are some signs that a teen may need professional help with their anxiety?

Gina: I think it’s showing up in a lot of different ways, but certainly the negative self-talk, if teens are really judgemental of themselves, if their parents are noticing that they put so much pressure on themselves to perform and to achieve, like for instance, I’ll work with teens if they don’t get a hundred per cent.

Then that’s not good enough. They could get 98, but it’s still not good enough and they beat themselves up and they use shame language like, “I’m so stupid. I can’t believe I made that mistake.” Those are kids that I would be more cautious about just from that kind of high perfectionistic side, but certainly, the social withdrawal kids that have decided that they’re not good enough or they don’t fit in, and the depression side is kind of coming in with those real negative thoughts.

They’re withdrawing and they’re not engaging or they’re not feeling invited or connected. And I think parents really need to be mindful of some of that. There is separation in teens where they don’t wanna be around the family, but we also have to pay attention to what are they looking at? What are their thoughts? What are the emotions?

Addressing Stigma and Seeking Help for Teen Anxiety

Because if they’re really bad, negative thoughts, you know, we wanna be paying attention to suicidality and we wanna, what is it that, what, how dark is it for them? And what are those thoughts so that parents are actually being able to connect more and go, okay, this is not your typical anxiety. This is something that we need some additional help with. Or maybe it’s not so significant, but the parent recognizes they can’t offer their team what their teen needs and their teen just needs a safe place to talk about whatever’s happening, even if it’s what’s happening in the home. So if your teen is expressing, I want some help, or they’re trying to be vulnerable and expressing these things, I think that parents need to be mindful of all of that, that sometimes their own shame triggers get in the way of, oh gosh, you know, we don’t have mental health in our family, or there’s religious or cultural dynamics that play a role that says we don’t talk about anxiety, everybody just suck it up and handle it. I want parents to be more mindful of some of these signs and be able to help their teen just kind of talk about it a little bit more or write about it. And that’s where kind of this communication journal will, I hope be effective for parents and teens so that even if you can’t verbally sit in front of each other and talk, it’s a cute version for them to be able to have some prompts and actually.

Talk about where they feel things in their body and what is upsetting them so that parents can have a better understanding of what’s happening.

Carrie: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.

Gina: Well, one of the things that I noticed so much with teens is that they really struggle to articulate how they feel or what’s happening, and I think in today’s world, the buzzword anxiety is like the safe word to say.

Everybody’s got anxiety. Okay, what does that mean? Where do you feel that in your body? What does that look like? What are the symptoms? How do you stop it? How do you learn to control it? For a lot of teens, just the bodywork of understanding what that actually feels like. And being able to label it as something other than anxiety can be helpful because maybe it’s, they’re saying I’m anxious, but really there’s some grief.

They’re disappointed or they’re expressing it as anger, but it’s really something deeper underneath that, like the grief or disappointment that they can’t really articulate. So the goal of the journal is that it gives some prompts and it lets the teen with things like “I” message and proper communication identify from a body chart where they feel that in their body.

Why is that important? What are the thoughts or the story that they’re making up as a result of these feelings? Then they can communicate that to a parent. And then the parent gets the kind of the same props on the other side of the journal, and they can respond back and say, I feel this way, and I feel it in my body too.

And the parents are learning to communicate the same way as the teen, but it’s a safer way, I think, for the teens to really express more of what’s going on for them and to help the parents get a better grasp. Without just saying I’m anxious, I’m anxious. I don’t know about you, but a lot of my teens will say I’m anxious.

And tell me about that. I don’t know. I’m anxious. I don’t know. Those are like the two.

Carrie: Goes together. That’s interesting. Like what you’re talking about, about anxiety is a buzzword and it’s almost like it’s been accepted as normal and Okay. And like, yes, of course, we talk on the show about reducing shame.

And yes, it’s okay to struggle with things, but what I’m saying is we shouldn’t be running around with chickens with our heads cut off all over the place. Like that in a sense is not healthy for us like we were meant to rest. We were meant to be able to pause and take breaks and have margin in our lives to not be constantly on the go.

And so because we’ve normalized that piece. It’s almost like we’ve normalized the anxiety that comes with that rushing around piece.

Gina: Absolutely. In fact, some of my teens will even tell me, they look at their parents and their parents’ careers and how hard they work and they’re like, I don’t want any part of that.

Like what they do. I don’t want any part of that because that doesn’t look like joy. That doesn’t look like fun. I don’t know. We’ll see a big shift with, certainly the millennials have taught us something different about work-life balance and they’re looking for something different. My generation for sure was with the corporate scene.

Carrie: Tell us about how people can find and get in touch with you.

Gina: Yeah, so on Facebook, I’m at Authentic Gains, just altogether a lowercase. And then on Instagram, it’s at Authentic underscore gains. Boy, that’s my business name. And then again, one of the best ways for parents are really just looking for some really fast tools that can help them.

I wanna give a free gift of this mini course that I have out there, and so parents can go to www.combatingteenanxiety.com, and by going to that website, it’ll take them to a prompt that will start to feed in the different modules for the free minicourse, for them to get some tools.

Gina Nelson’s Story of Hope

Carrie: Okay, great. At the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share the Story of Hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Gina: Great question. This probably relates more to my anxiety as a parent, but one of the things that I recognized, we try to control as much as we can of our kids, and at some point we recognize that they grow up and we don’t have control over their lives anymore. Two weeks before my son’s 18th birthday, he had been toying with the idea that he wanted to join the army, which was not my expectation for him.

I had a plan for him to go play lacrosse and go to college and all of those. And I came home from work and there was a sergeant in his full attire in my kitchen having a conversation with my husband, myself, about my son’s desire to go into the Army. Anyway, it was really a rough conversation and after a bunch of ma’am and the sergeant turned to me and says, ma’am, he said, There’s two ways we can do this.

He said, you and your husband can sign him in tonight while he’s 17 or in two weeks, he’s gonna come back and sign himself in. And either way, he’s joining the army. And it was just this like, oh wow, I don’t have control over this and there’s nothing I can do. And I just remember being a woman of faith, I was just like, okay, God.

Like help me through this conversation. Like give me some strength. And I just remember looking at my son and still get emotional. He’s 24 now, but I just remember looking at him and saying, if you can shake this man’s hand and look him straight in the eyes and tell him you wanna be a member of the US Army. So I have got to deal with my anxiety to get rid of that and my fear of what might happen to you. And that just became kind of a God journey because within a few weeks of me just wrestling with that going, Ugh, I don’t like any part of this. And everybody of course loved it. They’re like, oh, he is going into the military. Congratulations. Thank you for his service. And I’m thinking, no, I’ve worked with vets.

I know the other side of this and I’m scared to death. And so I really just one day at church just kind of put my hands up and said, God, I can’t hold this anymore. You’ve gotta take this away from me. And it was like this rush of just peace and relaxation and I got behind him and three and a half years later, he was unscathed, untouched, never saw any combat, and is now on the GI Bill finishing a construction management degree.

Carrie: Great. That’s awesome.

Gina: God had to hold me through that.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s amazing. And how rare that kids that young nowadays know what they want to do it sounds like he was set on that path.

Gina: It was. But that’s, I think that moment, and so when I work with parents now, even the empty nest and watching their teens make choices or things that maybe weren’t their expectation, it’s really a matter of, Hey parents, you gotta do your work too.

Oh, we have to learn how to grieve our expectations to be able to allow them to fly and to individuate and do those things on their own.

Carrie: Yeah. Accepting things that are outside of your control is such a big piece in anxiety. Absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing that story with us and we’ll put the links, to your information in the show notes for people and where they can find the mini-course and the journal.

Gina: Yeah, very excited. Thank you so much for having me. I love the work that you’re doing and getting the message out there about anxiety for everybody, whether they’re parents or teens, or just people struggling.

Carrie: If you know a teen who is struggling with anxiety, I hope that this interview and the information shared was helpful to you to receive ongoing, supportive encouragement and updates about our show. You can always follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect of using myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

85. Anxiety FAQ with Carrie and Tiffany

Written by Carrie Bock on January 4, 2023. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 85. Anxiety FAQ with Carrie and Tiffany

In today’s episode, returning guest, Tiffany Ciccone, an author and English teacher joins Carrie in a Q&A about anxiety.

Here are some of Tiffany’s questions answered by Carrie.

What is anxiety?
How do you respond to someone when they say that anxiety and depression are just spiritual warfare and lack of faith?
Everyone says to try deep breathing when you’re anxious. It doesn’t work for me. Why?
Should I take medication for my anxiety?
I pray but why I’m still anxious?
How do I know if I need help for my anxiety?

Tiffany Ciccone

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and ocd, episode 85. Happy New Year everyone. Happy 2023. It’s hard to believe that I started this podcast towards the end of 2020, so we’ve been going strong for a little over two years now. If you are new to our show, we’re all about reducing shame, increasing hope in developing healthier connections with God and others.

Today on the show, we actually have a returning guest from episode 41, Tiffany Cicconi. I’m very excited that you are here today, Tiffany, thank you. Very excited to be here. I brought you back because I thought beginning of the year, let’s break down and do just some very, like get back to basics. Just do some question and answer about anxiety. And I thought it would be kind of fun to have you read the questions. So that’s where we’re going today if everyone’s wondering.

However, before we get into that, I wanted to ask you to give us a little update since we missed you being a part of episode 80 on updating previous guests about what you’re doing now.

So you were writing a book about anxiety when we interviewed before.

Tiffany: How is it coming along? It’s coming along really well. A book is called Anxious with Jesus, and I have a little subtitle for it now. A memoir from the Messy Intersection of Faith and Mental Health or Mental Illness. I forget God, basically provided me with some time to just hunker down and work on it.

So I would say that my manuscript is basically finished and I’m in the process of submitting proposals to a couple publishers, and if they don’t bite, then I’m going to self-publish it. I don’t have a date yet, but it’s kind of new, exciting, unexplored territory for me. That’s where I’m at. Hey, when it comes out, we’re blasting it all over Instagram and get shared on the podcast.

Carrie: I’m very excited about it.

Tiffany: Oh. Thank you.

Carrie: If you need someone to read it and write you an Amazon review, you know where to find me.

Tiffany: Definitely will be doing that.

Carrie: I think it’s so relatable to people who deal with anxiety, because sometimes in their lives they feel like people around me just don’t get it. Even unfortunately, it happens a lot of times in the Christian community. Where if they read a story or hear a story about someone else who’s also struggled, it’s just that relatability is so helpful to be like, “Oh, okay. They’re a Christian. They’re trying to follow the Lord, and they’re also struggling too. And I don’t feel so alone anymore.”

Tiffany: Yeah, that’s definitely a major goal in my book because when I first started, I was diagnosed 15 years ago, and at that time, mental health was not as openly discussed as it is today, and I went through it very much alone. And so one of my goals now is to kind of reduce that.

I’m sharing my story so other people don’t have to live through theirs with a sense of doing it by themself.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Fire away. What’s the first question? Or FAQ? Episode.

What is Anxiety?

Tiffany: Gladly. Let’s start with the beginning. So Carrie, what is anxiety?

Carrie: Anxiety is a bit of a broad term, so I want to kind of break it down into different aspects, right?

So there’s mental aspects of anxiety, like worry, thinking about the future, oh, something bad’s gonna happen. Being really convinced of these types of things. And we also have a physiological aspect to anxiety. In our nervous system, we have a part of our nervous system called the sympathetic that revs us up.

That’s the fight or flight response, and we have a parasympathetic that calms us down. We call that rest and digest. So people who struggle with anxiety, they’re their fight or flight systemis overactivated and their rest and digest is underestimated. So part of what we do in things like therapy is help people tap into that calming aspect of their nervous system that’s already in there.

We can have spiritual aspects to anxiety where we say, okay, maybe I’m not trusting God with my worries, or I’m closing him off, or not bringing them to him. There’s these different aspects of anxiety that I think sometimes people just look at it at only one aspect, like, oh, anxiety is a spiritual problem.”

It’s not, it’s a physiological and emotional issue. And because a lot of times the emotional components are tied to negative past experiences, times where we’ve been hurt, times, where we’ve been ridiculed, so we’re afraid of those things happening again. That makes sense. Our brain remembers things for a reason, like, don’t touch the hot stove again, don’t speak in front of people because when you were in the fourth grade and you were giving your presentation, everyone laughed at you.

It’s a multifaceted issue. So I think that that’s important for people to know. It’s not just like one simple thing, “Oh, I’m a person who worries or all of that.”

Tiffany: And I think the lack of understanding of anxiety as a multifaceted thing has been the root of so many misunderstandings I’ve had with people, especially believers.

Unfortunately, they might say, “Oh, how are you?” And I might say, “I’m okay, but I’m feeling a little anxious.” And then they come back with a spiritual interpretation of that saying, “Oh, well, when I’m anxious, I learned to give it to the Lord and he takes it.” And I wanna say that’s not what, I mean, that’s not my issue right now. It’s physiological. So I really appreciate that multifaceted definition, and I’m excited for that to kind of spread,

Carrie: Yes. For more people to understand like how our brain, how our nervous system works and that God make us robotic, but we have these complex systems in our body. And let’s face it, they’re not perfect.

None of us have a perfectly functioning body, not until we get to heaven anyway, so things are gonna malfunction and we’re active sometimes.

I Pray But Why I’m Still Anxious?

Tiffany: Absolutely. So this next question relates. It’s, “I can quote scripture and pray, but I’m still anxious. Why?”

Carrie: I think a lot of times there’s this sense of cognitive behavioral therapy that has infiltrated the church. They’ll even quote scriptures like, there’s a scripture in Proverbs and it’s probably not gonna come to me, but it’s something like about a thought process and that being a part of a person. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Tiffany: I don’t know. The first one that came to my mind was trust in the Lord with all your heart leaned out on your own understanding. But yeah, I’m not sure.

Carrie: Okay. Well anyway, scratch where I was going with that. But there’s this infiltration that if we just control our thoughts, we’ll feel better. Like just, okay. So when you have that worry, you are supposed to pray about it and let it go and move on. But going back to the multifaceted approach, we can change our thoughts about something, but that doesn’t mean that our body accepts that fact as true. There are so many people that I’ve worked with that and I think of even in my younger years, There was a very loving mentor that was like, “You just need to know who you are in Christ, Carrie, like that’s gonna change your life.”. And I knew mentally who I was in Christ, but because of previous negative peer experiences, verbal bullying, those types of things, I didn’t have that sense of confidence of who I was in Christ.

I had to heal past garbage and shame and negative experiences in order to really be able to embrace and feel deep down who I was in Christ. So with anxiety, scripture is very powerful and certainly we’re not minimizing that at all, and I do believe that you need to hide that in your heart. But I’ve met so many Christians, I’ll never forget I was, speaking at a conference on the National Alliance for Mental Illness.

It was a statewide conference they have every year on anxiety. There was an older man in the audience during the question and answer time, and he said, “I know like I’m supposed to be anxious for nothing because I was talking about how to help anxiety in all these different areas and it wasn’t a Christian conference, so I did have spirituality in there.”

He said essentially like, “How do I do that? Because I feel anxious my whole life. I felt anxious, and really what I did was I pointed him back to people that were anxious in the Bible and I said, “Okay, so do you think that Gideon was anxious before he tore down his father’s altars? Really going against the grain of society.”

I think sometimes we look at these heroes of the faith and we think that they never had any anxiety, and that’s not what the Bible says. They had anxiety, but they still acted obedience. They still followed God and Jesus’ sweat drops of blood in the garden of Gethsemane over going to the cross. He still went to the cross.

He still obeyed God, but he didn’t wanna do it like he was like, “Take this away from me.”. If there’s some other way to go through this, let’s go that way. People forget that or they overlook that a lot of times. And how I see those scriptures is not as a command of like, don’t be anxious. I see it more as like, okay, God is in control.

God loves you. You’re his child and like, so there’s not anything you need to be afraid of. Like if you can rest in that security and know that like, okay, I can bring these things over to him when we pray and we let things go. I don’t think that that’s an easy process a lot of times, right? , like there are some things that really we have to wrestle with in prayer that’s very scriptural going.

And praying about something and saying, okay, God, this I don’t understand. This is really bothersome to me, or what do I do about this situation? And we don’t always get an instant answer. In fact, a lot of times we don’t get an instant answer, right? Like, okay, God, what do I do about this decision?

It’s not like there’s this shining light that comes down and says, go left. We really have to continue to meditate and pray on that. Talk to wise counsel. Search the scriptures. Okay? Is what I’m doing lining up with the Bible? Okay. It’s not a moral issue, but where do I sense the Holy Spirit leading me?

It’s not a quick thing, so I don’t know why we would think that if I just pray about something that I’m worried about, that all of a sudden I’m gonna have like, I don’t know, a warm fuzzy feeling and just be like, “Oh yes, that’s great. I have complete and total peace.” I do think that God gives us peace to where we can move forward to where we can get through to the next thing, but I think sometimes it’s oversimplified. Let’s just put it that way, in terms of how Christians view it.

Tiffany: Absolutely. I just started to look up a verse actually in Philippians when you just said that. I’m not sure where it comes from. This belief, that expectation that we’re supposed to get instant relief from our anxiety when we bring it to God.

And I think there it is a verse in Philippians. And it says, oh, it’s actually in the be anxious for nothing passage, I think. Right. Pray with Thanksgiving and the God of all peace will I forget.

Carrie: You’ll have basically, you’ll have the peace that passes understanding.

Tiffany: Yes. In Christ Jesus. And so I think that a lot comes from that and I love that they write the fact that we have to look at the entire Bible. We can’t just single out one verse and blow it, zoom in on it, and forget everything because life is complex. Scripture is complex, and that’s why I think conversations like this are really important.

Carrie: And God’s complex. Why are we trying to make God simple? He’s huge.

Tiffany: Yes.

Carrie: He cannot be simplified.

How Do I Know If I Need Help for My Anxiety?

Tiffany: Yeah. I have another, I like the next question. I feel like I’ve heard it from other people. How do I know if I need help or my anxiety? Where’s the line?

Carrie: Of course, we’re talking to a therapist and I’m very biased towards therapy, so I truly believe that anyone can benefit from therapy.

I think sitting down with someone and having an objective perspective on your life, I know as a therapist. I practice this stuff, that it’s been transformational to me to receive that support and love and acceptance from another believer who is able to affirm me and validate me, but also at the same time challenge me and say, well, have you thought about it this way?

Maybe you’re only looking at one side of the story and not the whole thing. However, when we’re talking about medication counseling, those types of things, getting help, I think we’re looking at the domains of a person’s life. Are the domains of your life impacted? So those would be things like your relationships.

Sometimes people come to counseling because they may say, “You know what? I know, like I’m driving my spouse nuts, and it’s to the point where they don’t know what to say to me. They’re trying to be supportive, but they kind of said, Hey, like maybe you need somebody more professional to talk to about this, because I’m kind of like at the end of my rope, I don’t know what to do.” Or

the anxiety is affecting their ability maybe to go out with their spouse and have a good time or be able to enjoy life with them. It may be it’s impacting work or school. So the anxiety has gotten to a point where I can’t complete my assignments because I want them all to be perfect and I’m super stressed myself out over.

I’m not sleeping, so we’re also looking at symptoms. Things like sleeping, eating too much to cope, not eating enough because you’re so anxious I can’t eat. Same thing with sleeping. Typically with anxiety, people sleep less or they’re waking a lot during the night. That can be another issue. Those types of things. Daily functioning. Is it hard for you just to get out of bed in the morning and get going? A lot of times if people have been anxious for a long period, they’ll get depressed because it’s really hard. Same with OCD.It’s just really hard to wrestle with it every day in and day out, every day, and that can really lead to a place of depression.

So sometimes when you treat the anxiety, develop some better coping skills for it, then the depression will relieve. Or sometimes antidepressants can help and different things with that too.

Should I Take Medication for My Anxiety?

Tiffany: Well said. I love that you mentioned antidepressants because that begs a whole, whole new question. New topic to explore here.

Should I take medication for my anxiety?

Carrie: Yeah. I think there is the stigma in the church about taking medication for mental health issues, which is really interesting to me because there are a lot of people in the church who take medications for other things like blood pressure or cancer or diabetes, or they have some personal family members that I know that take medications for these types of things and,

I would never say to my relative, “Well, you shouldn’t be on that high blood pressure medicine. Really what you need to be doing is exercising and eating right.” Well, they need to be doing that too, but at this point, since it’s not managed very well or their high blood pressure may be genetic, cuz sometimes it is, then that’s a medication that’s helping them live and helping them function in day-to-day.

If I have high blood pressure that is can be dangerous. So when we look at anxiety and talking about it as a multifaceted issue, if it’s affecting my physical body, then why should it be wrong for me to take something to help my physical body? Just like it’s helpful to take these things for other issues, medications for people. I always say it’s a personal decision because medications, sometimes people have had negative experiences with them or they’re like, you know what? I’m the person that gets all the side effects from the medicines and I have a hard time with them. So there are people, even though I will say there’s different options, just talk to your doctor about it.

If one thing doesn’t work well for you, you can look at something different. But some people say, “You know what? I’ve tried a medication or two, I just wasn’t happy with it, or I didn’t feel like it really helped me the way I had wanted it to.” And so they try counseling. Sometimes we try counseling for a while and then we roll back around and say, it’s really like hard for you to engage in these positive activities because of the anxiety. Your depression is so bad like would you be considered taking medication for it? And so those can go either way. I always think obviously, it’s a very personal decision what you put in your body, so I never tell people like, oh, you have to be on medication to see me or anything like that.

It’s just, “Hey, this is something that could be helpful for you. If you’re interested, why don’t you talk to somebody about it?” Whenever people initially come in, if they haven’t had just like a general blood work screening for things like vitamin deficiencies, thyroid, iron, that’s another thing that can cause issues, although that’s probably more on the low energy side rather than the anxiety side.

But anyway, the point is all of these things we talk about in a very early episode with a nurse practitioner about how all of those things can contribute to anxiety. So always like people to have a blood work rule out too. And we don’t wanna assume it’s all emotional if they’re also could be something physiological going on that could be contributing to the symptoms.

Tiffany: Absolutely. Yeah. That holistic approach is really important. And I’m gonna mention it’s just so on topic with a lot of things I’ve thought about and wrote about. One of my chapters in my book is called Therapy and the one after that is called Medication because that’s my story and I’ve been on medication for over 10 years now.

And like what you’re saying is absolutely true. In my case, I’m able to actually engage with life, engage with people, engage with God better because my mind’s working the way it’s supposed to with, you know, a boost from the medication I take. But it definitely was a journey. I know people who all over the place.

A couple good friends actually I saw go through hesitation with medication. One because of breastfeeding issues. Another because of one thing you mentioned with the, oh, I get all the side effects from everything I take, and it’s been a blessing to be able to walk with them, just kind of watch their story unfold.

And like you said, it’s not for everyone, but actually they both ended up trying it because when things get really hard, for me anyway, I end up at a place where it’s like anything to stop the anxiety. There’s something that can make me feel better. I’ll try it. That’s just my story.

Carrie: I talked about this in my first episode as like when I was going through my divorce, I was like, I’m not functioning.

I mean, I just remember periods where I would like, I’d be trying to write something for work, like a progress note, and I’d literally just stare at the computer screen for 30 minutes and all I could think about was you know my marriage that was ending. . It was very tough. I remember that was my realization moment.

That was like my wake-up call. And it was interesting because I think either that week or shortly after my therapist had said, “Have you thought about getting on an antidepressant, at least for this period? Like until you can get over this hump?” And I saw my doctor and ended up taking one for six months and it was probably one of the best things I did at that point in my life.

I think that’s another thing to tell people too, is not everybody has to be on it forever. I don’t know why people think this, because like I said, it’s not true for other medications. There’s people that might start taking medications because they’re pre-diabetic and then they can come off of. They manage with diet and lifestyle, those types of things.

But for some reason, when it comes to mental health meds, people think that somehow they’re gonna get sucked into this vortex and they’re gonna have to take it for the rest of their life. I don’t understand, cuz we don’t believe that about other kinds of medication. , it’s so bizarre. But that’s a thing that I hear a lot from people.

“Well, I’m gonna become dependent on that and I’m gonna have to have it all the time.” Plenty of things that you can take that are not addictive, right? Certainly for anxiety. Now there are some that can be potentially addictive. Those are typically prescribed more for like short-term relief, panic attacks, those types of things.

Even with that, there’s, you know, other options as well. It doesn’t mean you’re gonna get addicted if you get on an antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication.

What Do I Do If I Have No Idea Where My Anxiety is Coming From?

Tiffany: Right. Yeah. Thanks for diving into that. Let’s see our next question. This is a good one. I’ve been there. What do I do if I have no idea where my anxiety is coming from?

Carrie: Yeah, I think this is a good one because people are always trying to find like the answer, right? So like if I’m anxious, there must be some kind of reason that I’m anxious. Let’s face it, because we’re both females. Sometimes you just feel stuff, , and you have no idea why. I don’t know. Hopefully, men could resonate with that too, but I really believe like there’s some hormonal components at times that we don’t know are working behind the scenes.

You know, maybe we ate something that wasn’t agreeable. Maybe it’s just something with our nervous system that’s malfunctioning and to really be able to say, you know, “Okay, I don’t know why I’m anxious right now. Like you, you may know. And if you do know, then you can acknowledge it and go, “Okay, like, yeah, I’m really worried about this test that’s coming up on Friday.

It’s worth like three grades. I’m afraid I’m gonna fail it.” and then I can approach that several different ways. Obviously, I can breathe into it, I can pray about it, I can study, I can say, you know what? I’m gonna do the best I can. And if I fail, you know, I fail.” And then we’ll have to regroup from that.

But most likely if I study, I’m not going to fail. I’m not gonna get to that point, but if you don’t know and you just feel that, especially the physiological sense of anxiety. Sometimes it can be because something from the past is triggered that something going on in the president has kind of reminded us of a previous time, and our cognitive brain is not necessarily able to link it.

But it’s stored somewhere in our body. A lot of times trauma can be stored in in the body. When we realize that, I think it’s just, we lean into it and we say like, okay, I don’t know why I’m anxious right now, but that’s where this place of awareness and acceptance comes in. So I’m gonna acknowledge it first of all, like, “Okay, I’m acknowledging that I’m anxious right now and that we can’t snap my fingers and let that go.”

But what I can do is try a coping skill. I can try to think about something positive. I can breathe, I can go outside for a walk, you know, I can pet the dog. I can think about vacation I wanna take, that would be really peaceful. Those types of things. Even though that can be scary because we feel outta control, it’s like, “Oh gosh, this is just coming up

Seemingly out of nowhere.” A lot of times it’s not really as out of nowhere as we Think it is. If we’re able to kind of like dig in and do some work in therapy. But that’s kind of what I would recommend. I think

Tiffany: That’s good. I once had a therapist recommend to me if I’m interested, if you would agree with it, recommended, you know, if you’re feeling your anxiety physiologically, if it’s just a, I think she said somatic thing, then you should attack it on the somatic.

She recommended like a jog, try yoga, you know, breathing those things. Because you have no thought to work with it. It does make it a little more challenging. Right. And I’ve actually just went through a bout of that about a month ago I was unemployed and I was shocked by how much jogging actually helped work it outta my system or something. Nothing else would get rid of it. I just go run it off and then I feel better.

Carrie: Yeah, exercise is really great. It’s really, really good for anxiety and depression and does wonders for our body, but I would agree with that. Yeah. I think a lot of times this is another problem that people have if it’s physiological, then a lot of times what they’ll do is they’ll sit there and they’ll go, “I have no reason to be anxious.

I’m fine. My life is good. It’s okay. Move on. Like what’s the next thing?” Instead of like using something physiological to help themselves calm down. Take a deep breath, quiet your mind. Meditate, walk. Good.

Everyone says to try deep breathing when you’re anxious. It doesn’t work for me. Why?

Tiffany: Yeah. So speaking of taking a deep breath, the last question I have when I got from, a friend, this one says, “Everyone says to try deep breathing when you’re anxious. It doesn’t work for me. Why?”

Carrie: This is a good question, and I think there could be a few different reasons. Some people have get really weirded out focusing on their breath, or they start to have some obsessions about it or doing it right, something of that nature. So it really trips them up to kind of have that focus is one thing I’ve seen.

Another thing that can happen is people are not breathing in a way that’s activating that calm-down response. So like we were talking about the rest and digest, there’s something called your vagus nerve that is around that diaphragm area that if you’re breathing from your diaphragm for anybody that’s. Taking choir or anything like that, it’s right above your belly button.

So if you’re breathing into that area, you’re pressing on the vagus nerve, and that’s gonna trigger that calm down response. Sometimes when you see people take a deep breath, it comes from their chest, and it’s like, if it’s way up top, then they’re not activating that parasympathetic nervous system response.

So that’s a problem. It also could be because if you’ve had a lot of trauma or negative experiences, it may not feel safe to be at a place of rest. And this happens a lot for clients that have experienced chronic developmental trauma. So for example, growing up in a home with an alcoholic parent, I come home.

Dad’s been drinking. Dad gets violent sometimes. I don’t know. Is he gonna hit mom? Is he gonna throw something? Is he gonna just gonna be passed out in the chair? I don’t know. But I need to somehow be on high alert when I get home because I need to be prepared at all times for whatever it is that I’m gonna face.

And so that will linger in people’s nervous systems and in their body. So even though they’re a grown adult, they have a good spouse. They have kids, like their home life is actually okay and can be, you know, reasonably calm. They may wonder, why do I feel so anxious? But they’re still keyed up from all that stuff that happened to them earlier that they haven’t been able to clear out of their nervous system in some way, shape or form.

So when you try to teach relaxation skills to these people, you say, “Okay, like take some deep breaths.”. It’s almost like there’s this part of their body that’s like, “Nope. We can’t do that. Not safe. Okay.” . And it almost like, sounds this like secondary danger alarm, like, “Nope, nope. It’s too dangerous to relax.”

So in those types of situations, we really have to like ease into it and kind of like dip our toe in the water and even like recognize that anxiety and like acknowledging and validating that like, “Oh, okay, it didn’t feel safe when a kid to relax or didn’t feel safe to let your guard down.

Sometimes vulnerability is super hard for people, so it may take them time to open up in therapy or time to be able to feel comfortable enough. Sometimes it’s like having another person in the room. It feels too vulnerable to relax in the presence of another person. That can be another issue that comes up with those types of things. Multi reasons. Someone may have difficulty using breathing to relax.

Tiffany: Thanks for sharing. That’s all really interesting. I’ve never been in that place myself like the deep breathing, I have positive reactions to it. I find that really interesting. It makes a ton of sense. I also didn’t know that about the vagus nerve, about that being a reason why it helps calm down.

How Do you Respond to Someone When they Say that Anxiety and Depression are just Spiritual Warfare and Lack of Faith?

Tiffany: The last question comes from a friend of mine, and it’s something again that I’ve heard plenty of people say when I’ve come out about my anxiety. Basically, what do you say or how do you respond to someone when they say that anxiety and depression are just spiritual warfare and lack of faith?

Carrie: Yeah. Okay, so there’s two different aspects to that, right? , I think we have to address those one at a time because they’re two different responses. So our anxiety and depression, spiritual warfare, I think they can be, sometimes. , but I don’t think that they always are. So that’s really the defining piece. I think that there are times where I have like a feeling of oppression on me.

That’s the only way I can kind of describe it. I can verbally say like, “Okay, this is not from God. I don’t know where it’s from. I don’t know if it’s from Satan or if it’s just depression, but it definitely feels like, okay, this is something that’s trying to pull me down. If you acknowledge that, kind of going back to the multifaceted view of anxiety.

You know, there can be spiritual components to it where you say, “Okay, I have put my faith and trust in say, money, for example.”. Maybe you are a person that was like super financially secure and then you lose your job. Well all of a sudden you’re like trying to do it all on your own. You’re not like necessarily praying about it and you’re just, you’re getting super stressed out cause you’re like, I have to make it happen.

Pride can get in the way or not trusting. So can anxiety be a faith issue? Can it be spiritual warfare? I think it can be. However, it’s just not always going back to people like, I think to give simplistic responses to more complicated issues because they don’t. What to say or how to respond. So going back to looking at people in the Bible who were anxious or who were sad. I mean, there were people in the Bible who wanted to die, you know?

Because they were so sad about their situation. So I don’t think that those individuals had a lack of faith. When you look at faith, You look at like David prayed for his son that was sick and then the baby died. Did the baby die because David didn’t have enough faith? No. That’s not what the Bible tells us. Or there are other situations you look at Paul with like the thorn in the flesh. So did Paul not have enough faith that he could be healed from this? Well, no. It was something that God used in his life as part of his sanctification process. Mm-hmm. . One of the things that I’ve really come to learn is that the things that we want God to take away in our lives, the things that we say, Hey God, I need this.

Like I need this tho removed and I need it removed right now is like the very thing that God may be wanting to use in our life to make us more like Christ.

Tiffany: Amen.

Carrie: My husband was recently diagnosed. I’ve talked about this on the show before, but he was recently diagnosed last September with basically a life-altering neurological condition and it’s degenerative and there’s no cure.

And so I think it, it’s been interesting kind of to see some similar responses to it. Like, “Okay, well we’re gonna pray for you and we’re gonna lay hands on you and God’s gonna heal you.” And he has had people lay hands and pray for him, and that’s been incredible. But also what I’ve really seen happen over the last few months as he’s, you know, walked out his life in his struggle to walk with a walker in his forties is that other people look at him and become inspired or their faith is increased.

I don’t know how you are so positive while you’re going through all of this. You know? So I would say if somebody’s struggling with anxiety or OCD, never underestimate how God may use that in your life. Or may use it in someone else’s life. When my husband was diagnosed, I remember just sitting there and telling God, like, “I don’t have the prayer life for this.”

You know, it’s definitely transformed the way that I have depended on God. It is transformed how much I’ve realized I need community and the body of Christ instead. You know, living in a lot of independent pride for a long time saying, ah, I don’t need your help. No, we got this. Like, we’re good now. I’m just like, yes, I need help. I raise my hand. “Can I have some help over here?” And that has been incredibly humbling, and hard.

This is, none of this that I’m talking about has been easy, but I’ve been reading in Olympians and Paul talks about being in Jail. He’s like, Hey, I’m in jail. And it’s totally like advanced the gospel all over the place.

Everybody knows like I’m here because of Jesus. And that’s what I really pray over my husband is that when people see him and they see his positive attitude that they’ll see like, This is Jesus, you know? In him. And that’s how he’s able to get up every day and do the things that he’s doing and have hope and to keep moving forward each and every day.

That’s a long response and some, you know, extra personal info in there. But I think if we run around every corner and say, you know, that must be Satan, or you’re not trying hard enough, because I think the lack of faith response, my husband gets really, , tiffy about this one because essentially, it’s saying, you’re not a good enough Christian, essentially, right?

well, you don’t have enough faith to be healed, then you know you’re not a good enough Christian. And we just don’t know like what God is doing behind the scenes. So many times in our life, we just have no clue. Like if you never had anxiety in your life, And this happens to people. I’m not saying it doesn’t, but like if you went forward at a prayer service and someone laid hands on you and you never felt anxious again, you and I like, we wouldn’t even be sitting here having this conversation, like trying to give hope to other people.

You wouldn’t be writing a book to encourage other people. You just never know. We don’t always see the purpose in it when we’re suffering, especially in the beginning of our suffering, we do not see, we’re like, whoa, this is awful. Take this away. Right? God’s at work all the time.

Tiffany: Amen. That’s beautiful. And we see it in Jesus himself. So, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Carrie: I kind of shared a little bit of a story of hope at the end, but a lot of times I like to, I didn’t prep you on this ahead of, but do you have, you have any recent story of hope, like where you received hope from God or another person?

Tiffany: I like that. Sure. I know I do. There’s been a lot going on lately. I think there’s a girl who’s kind of recently come back around, a church, church that I meet with, and she struggles from anxiety and trauma growing up. She’s in her early twenties. Context. I’m 40 in a month, so we have a bit of an age gap, but we’re in the same small group together.

And she called me one night asking if she could have a ride to the emergency room, and her anxiety had been so bad recently that she got to the point of throwing up the hospital visit. They said that there was more going on than just anxiety there, but I see hope in that. She called me and I stayed there with her in the hospital until 2:00 AM.

Carrie: Wow.

Tiffany: When we got out, you can’t explain that other than Jesus, like we don’t have a whole lot in common. We both really like coffee. We both have anxiety. , but, but that’s Jesus. Like, I don’t think I would’ve stayed if I didn’t know how it might feel to be in anxiety alone.

Carrie: Right. And I didn’t want that for her. And there was another occasion before that where she texted me, “Hey, I’m really anxious right now. Can you pray for me?” And I texted her back, “Yeah, should I call you?” And she said Yes. And so I called her. And I don’t often pray for people over the phone, but this is just one example, like how your husband’s, how his

disease has reawakened your prayer life. I guess that’s kind of a micro example of that. Her reaching out to me saying just like you, you know, I need help that awakened my prayer life. And reminded me of years ago when I was like much more practiced in my intercessory prayer life. And you know, I feel like God used that to kind of start nudging me back toward that and she’s, I’m going to her birthday party in a weekend or so. So that’s definitely a story of hope. I can definitely see hard things bringing people together and the body of Christ coming together in community to support one another.

Yeah. That’s awesome. I love it. I’m so glad that you joined me on this episode. It’s been a lot of fun.

Tiffany: Me too.

Carrie: It’s good to have like your insights and your feedback as well. That’s awesome. Glad we could work this out. Well, like I said before, let us know when the book comes out. We want all the details and all of the links and people can go follow you on Instagram too to keep up with you.

Tiffany: Yes, absolutely. It’s uh, Tiffany and some Italian last name, .

Carrie: I’ll link it in there for you all so you can just look in the show notes.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Carrie. I really enjoyed this too.

Related Resources:

Tiffany Ciccone

84. How Do I Set a Boundary? with Kristen D. Boice, LMFT

Written by Carrie Bock on December 7, 2022. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 84. How Do I Set a Boundary? with Kristen D. Boice, LMFT

In today’s episode, I’m joined by Kristen D. Boice, LMFT, a psychotherapist, coach, speaker, Close the Chapter Podcast Host. Kristen and I talk about how to set healthy boundaries:

Signs that you need to set boundaries
Why is setting boundaries difficult
How to determine and communicate boundaries
Examples and scenarios for setting boundaries

Related Resources:

Kristen D. Boice, LMFT

What are Boundaries and Why are they Important? with Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP

Support the show

If you enjoy the podcast and want to support what we’re doing via monthly subscription, go to www.patreon.com/hopeforanxietyandocd
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Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 84. if you’re just finding our show, I am your host, Carrie Bock, and our podcast is really focused on reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. Today we’re really focused on that third goal as we do a follow-up episode on boundaries.

So back on episode 70, wee had an episode about What are Boundaries, and Why are They Important? with Erica Kesse. That was more of an ideological episode, more on the theory of boundaries, and this episode is going to be more practical. So I’m really excited to have found a guest who can. Walk us through the practicality of what it means to set boundaries.

I know that this is a very important topic for people who struggle with anxiety and something that I’m constantly working with clients on because when we don’t have healthy boundaries, we end up being, we take on too much and we end up becoming more anxious about it. It’s interesting. Kind of before we get into this conversation, I am in the season of No right now, which has been very interesting for me because.

I have had to say no to a lot of different things. I’ve said no to professional events and trainings. I have said no to personal meetings with people and it’s just reminded me how saying no to all of those things because in my season of life right now, I have a six-month-old. I have a husband with some health issues and some other family things going on that this has allowed me to say yes to the people and the priorities that are most important to me, even though sometimes it hurts to say no because some of the opportunities that are coming my way are really good and things that I want to do, and sometimes it’s just not the right season to do those things.

So today I have with me Kristen Boice. So Kristen, welcome to the show.

Kristen: Thanks Carrie for having me. And in your intro I was thinking this speaks to so many people to have the season of saying “no” so you can say yes to what matters the most in your life. And it’s not always easy.

Carrie: No, it’s not. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Kristen: So I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and I have a group private practice with 15 clinicians. We specialized in trauma, EMDR, and brain spotting here in the Indianapolis area. My passion is helping people feel centered in who they are, that it’s okay they have their own thoughts, feelings, opinions, and they’re able to have a voice without feeling guilt and shame over what they need, what they want. And having more clarity, confidence, compassion, calm in their life.

So that’s really what I feel passionate about helping people really find their center, find that anchor point within themselves so they can feel more confident in their decision-making and self-doubt.

I find a lot of people doubt even when they set a boundary or make a choice, and they’re like, “Ooh, are they gonna be upset with me? Did I make the right decision? Was that what I should?” The “should” Is that what I should have done? So that’s what I feel really passionate about. And then I have a podcast called Close the Chapter where we focus on closing, what doesn’t serve you and opening the door to possibilities.

Carrie: Good. I like all of that. That all sounds really great. 15 people is a pretty sizable group practice too. I’m sure that did not happen overnight. You have stuck the course and built the thing.

Kristen: That was definitely Holy Spirit-led. That was not me. I’m just the vessel and my team is very centered in that, and that’s really at the heart of what we do.

It’s we’re just the vessel to help people find healing. So it’s not one of those things that I went out and created. It kind of created itself, so to speak. I mean, yes, I’m managing it. Really, I never solicited one of the clinicians

Carrie: Wow.

Kristen: That’s all God-led. So it’s really been remarkable to be a part of it and it’s been an honor and a privilege to walk clients through the healing journey.

Understanding Boundaries and Their Importance

Carrie: Absolutely. So I’m curious for you, like when you know, like we were talking last episode in terms of identifying that a boundary needs to be set, like maybe an internal feeling of anxiety or anger, what internal cues like do you personally experience when you know like, “Okay, it’s time for me to set a boundary here.”

Kristen: My body will tell me the cue, so I might get a pit in my stomach. I might get that. Oh, I can see, for example, you have a family member that you know is gonna activate your nervous system and you can see them texting you or calling you, and I can immediately feel that in my nervous system, that butterfly in my stomach, or that adrenaline rush or that.

My body might even tense up in my shoulders or my jaw might get tight. Yeah. So my body is the first thing, my nervous system to tell me to check cuz it can zap your energy that if I’m not protecting that energy, that can wipe me out from being the mom I wanna be from being the partner, I want to be the wife, the leader of the team, the best clinician I wanna be.

If I’m putting my energy towards something that’s gonna zap. Yeah, so I’ve learned energy is so important and if I don’t honor that, then I don’t have it to give where it’s most important to me. Yeah, and that’s so relevant in terms of self-awareness of just us being tuned in to what our body is trying to communicate to us.

I really believe that God gives us that for a reason, just that internal sense to be the first. And I’m just curious, I know I’ve talked with clients who have said, I just don’t even feel like I have the right words or the right language because maybe boundaries were never modeled for them in their family or in other relationships.

Practical Steps to Setting Boundaries

Carrie: And what kind of help would you give those people in terms of like tone of voice and word choice that we want to use, like when we’re setting boundaries? This is the one thing I feel so passionate about. We’ll even do role play, like, okay, I’ll be like, You’ll be you. I’ll be the person you’re setting the boundary with so they can get more comfortable in their own nervous system to say it.

Kristen: So the first thing I recommend, kind of the first step is take a deep breath. Hmm, that’s good because we wanna anchor in and feel centered. So I like feeling your feet on the floor, kind of feeling yourself present in this space, in this time. So it might take three or four breaths to get kind of centered to get the courage to say what you wanna say, to get the clarity.

And I encourage people. The second thing is, if you’re nervous about it, to write out what you might wanna say, for example, So let’s say your mom is blowing up your phone, . You’re like, I love you. So I will say the acknowledgement sandwich. I love you and I can’t talk right now. I will text you when I have a moment, something like that.

And the “I love you and it’s not, I love you, but because the “but” kind of take it, erases, it kind of feels manipulative. So I like to do the acknowledgement piece first. You don’t always have to do that. Or let’s say someone invites you to do something at school and you’ll say, Thank you so much for asking.

And right now I can’t, let me know the next time and I’ll see if I have the. Or the time. So what you’re doing really is creating a positive on the front end and the back end for people. I’ve heard some people say this, I don’t know if they call it the compliment sandwich or the criticism sandwich, something like that.

I called the acknowledgement sandwich where you’re acknowledging that the person’s intention was pure on the other side, like they want, And it’s not always, but for example, if like the school wants you to volunteer for something, you can understand that they need it. Sure. I know you really need a volunteer and I so wish I had the time to help and unfortunately right now I don’t.

Thank you so much for asking that. Acknowledging that intention on the front end and setting the what you can and can’t do. That’s the boundary. What can and can’t I do. So it might even look like, thank you for asking for me to bring, I don’t know, xyz. I can’t bring that, but I can bring chips and salsa like so I’m saying what I can’t bring, like I can’t make a homemade dish right now and homemade brownies.

However, I’m more than happy to bring chips and salsa. So you can’t say I’m giving you kind of benign examples, but you can offer like, Here’s what I can do, here’s what I can’t do. Those are nice f. And the tone of voice. So if it’s more of a harder boundary, for example, it might be a family member might feel really activated or triggered by that family member and really taking the deep breath.

And if you cannot respond, where you’re gonna be more intense and maybe have more of an angry response. Where it’s, you’re not gonna be real regulated. I always recommend take a pause. When you do feel like you have the, you’re more centered in your response. Maybe you pray over your response, you feel more clear in your tone of voice texting so hard.

But if you’re saying it verbally, where you can soften your voice a little bit, you can still be clear and direct. People are afraid. I don’t, I don’t wanna be nasty. You don’t have to be nasty at all. I can be very loving, but very clear and direct in my boundary. So I know you really wanna connect right now cuz that’s why they’re texting you and I’m not available.

I will reach out when I have a moment and I’m not sure when that is, but I’ll reach back out when I have a moment. Or if you’re on the phone with somebody, let’s say they’re getting really intense on the other line and you can feel your nervous system kind of getting really activated. You’d say, I love you and I need to get off the phone right now.

Overcoming Challenges and Reaping the Benefits

Carrie: That’s good. So sometimes nasty. I’m just clear and sometimes you can plan your boundary setting if it’s an ongoing issue that you know that happens such as mom gets into rages on the phone, and then you can say, Okay mom, I just want you to know when if you start to escalate or if you start to raise your voice at me, I’m going to get off the phone.

Just so that you are aware of that, and then you can tell ’em kind of ahead of time and then when it happens in the moment, like you’ve already prepped the person, right? So then when it happens, it’s not a surprise to them anymore. You’ve already, then you’re just enforcing the boundary that you’ve already said.

Okay. You know, remember when we talked that if you started yelling, I was gonna get off the phone, I’m gonna get off the phone now going through the next thing I. A lot of times when people don’t have the confidence, they come, their boundary comes out like almost like they feel like a mouse is talking like, Oh, please don’t, Well maybe if you could not do this, and it’s this long drawn out thing.

What I’m hearing you say is really keep it short and more direct, so we don’t want anybody to miss what we’re trying to communicate to them in these situations. Just be short, clear. And one of the things I think that I really wanna emphasize on the back end is people think, well then they won’t be upset with me if I just say it a certain way.

If I just, And that’s when we go on and on and on cuz we’re trying to manage their response or their reaction or their emotions and we can’t. So when we go, okay, they may respond well and they may. and I can’t control how this is gonna land for the person. I can only manage how I say it and feel really good about how I said it and feel like I came with a regulated as much as I could, nervous system, and I said it in the most centered way I could.

Kristen: So what was my centered message? My centered message is It’s not okay. Maybe it’s not okay to yell at me and I’m gonna get off the phone. Now. We had, I kind of explained the ba, you don’t even have to say the word boundary. I explained if you start yelling, I’m gonna get off the phone. I love you and I’ll talk to you later.

It’s more your centered message and your centered in your nervous system. Those go hand in hand.

Carrie: And even, I think adults and children respond similarly because when we think about setting boundaries, a lot of times we think about that in terms of discipline with children, No, you’re not allowed to run in the house.

Those types of things. And. If you give this long, drawn-out explanation about now if you run and this could happen, that could happen, and your message of what you’re trying to convey can actually get lost in the shuffle, rather than just saying, This is the line in the sand, and I think adults are similar.

I mean, would you agree with that? Like just respond similarly to the message? For sure. I think one of the most important things is if we aren’t clear and direct, the person has no idea. I’m working with couples especially, they’re like, Well, you were, I know you’re really trying to be helpful, which is nice.

Kristen: That’s a good front-end kind of acknowledgement. But then they go on and on and on and then they’ll say, And I just wish we could have a little more connection time. And I’m like, “Okay, what are you exactly saying?” Oh, you want the person to put the phone down when you’re at dinner, turn the phones off so you can have more connection time.

So that’s more clear and direct rather than making it this big, broad invitation where the other person feels so overwhelmed and lost and not clear on what you’re saying. So it can be helpful to the other person’s nervous system, even though they may not like it to be more specific. Then they can decide whether they wanna do that or.

So if someone says, I would love to have where we put our phones away for dinner, would you be willing to do that? And they say No, then you’ve got it. Then you have to deal with your own feelings around that.

Carrie: Yeah. I think this is good because I know that I’ve worked with a lot of women who think that they are communicating something to their spouse.

And I won’t understand it, what they’re trying to communicate that they’re saying. And I’m like, Okay, so let’s boil this down to like, what is it that you actually want? Knowing what you actually want can be a really good precursor to setting a boundary or communicating with someone else about something.

And that I think you can kind of queue in just being more mindful internally. What is it that I would like in this relationship? I want more connection. Okay. So if you had more connection, what would that look like? Oh, he wouldn’t be texting on the phone during dinner. Okay. Well, that’s a pretty clear behavior that could be changed by someone that you’re asking.

I think sometimes If a man hears, I want more connection. Well, I mean, that could. 20 different things, you know, what does that mean? So I think that this is a really good concept for people to, when they’re creating the boundary. I like what you said earlier, and I wanted to circle back around to it and not miss it.

You talked about writing down what you want to say, and I definitely have made some bullet points on a post-it note for things that I wanted to make sure that I communicated to people in my life, especially when I knew they were gonna be hard, heavy, emotional conversations. Sometimes you can’t be a hundred percent regulated, you know you’re going to be nervous in that conversation or you know it’s gonna be hard.

And you may forget things because of that emotional reactivity you were talking about. So just having those one or two points, that’s kind of like the bottom line message that you wanna come across with, I think is so valuable and beneficial.

Kristen: Yes. I’ve worked with several clients where they had an emotionally unavailable parent.

What does that mean? Like they didn’t, the parent wasn’t available to acknowledge their feelings or hear what they had to say. Really be attuned to them. So I had one client and what I had typically as I’ll do a letter writing exercise where you’re writing, this is not to give them, this is for you to get clarity on what are you wanting specifically from like what are you hoping to get out of this conversation?

Right? Yeah. So they write the letter and then we do three bullets of what are you asking for? What are the three central messages, what are your centered messages that you are trying to communicate? And you put it in the three bullet points. And then when you go into the conversation, it’s okay to take the letter.

It’s okay to take the bullet point, post it. It’s okay to take those or put it in your phone to have something to re. Because your brain will then cue when we get anxious, sometimes we can go and fight-flight, freeze Fawn. Fawn is that people-pleasing response or even flop, or you kind of just faint, like your nervous system gets overwhelmed.

This can help you kind of cue the brain on, Oh yes, this is what I was trying to say. You feel more confident and clear. And what you’re communicating, and that can be really helpful when you’re having hard conversations or trying to communicate a boundary, what’s okay, what’s not okay with you, or what you’re wanting or needing. It’s more clear and specific.

Carrie: Yeah. So I wanted to go through a couple scenarios and I think you’ve already gave us some great examples and language and talked about the acknowledgement sandwich. So I’m gonna give you a couple maybe that are hard, more in terms of relationally, right? Like if someone we don’t know ask us to do so.

Might be a little bit easier to say no to it versus when someone asks something of us that we really want to please that person, or we have a close relationship and we’re afraid that somehow that relationship might get threatened if we set a boundary. So I’ll read you one of these and then just, I’d love for you to just respond how you would respond.

Kristen: That sounds wonderful.

Setting Boundaries: Saying No to Close Friend’s Request

Carrie: So let’s just say that your close friend asked you to help with the school fundraiser coming up next month, and now this is not just showing up for it, but it’s planning, there’s preparation, and then actually showing up. And so due to family and work commitments, you don’t feel like you can add one more thing on your plate right now. What do you tell?

Kristen: Thank you so much for asking for me to help with the fundraiser. I know you’ve got a lot on your plate. I so wish I could help and unfortunately, I can’t right now. Let me know in the future if you need help and maybe at that time I’ll be, I’ll have more bandwidths.

Carrie: Good. I still feel like you like me when you said that.

Kristen: Oh, good because maybe that’s feel connected.

Carrie: Yes. Like being able, to keep the relational connection because if someone’s asking you to do something, They know that you would be a good person for that. Probably like maybe you’ve done fundraisers in the past, or maybe you are a person that they know is going to show up and actually get the work done that needs to be done. So that is somewhat of an honor to be asked to do something like that.

Kristen: It is, and it feels good to us if we’re honest. A lot of times it feels good that we’re chosen because maybe our inner child says, Well, I was always picked last in gym class, or no one ever wanted to sit with me. And so that little part of you inside says, “Oh, that feels so nice to be picked.”

And yet we know we don’t have the energy or the time cuz it’ll take us away from what we want, need to pour into, which might be our child, our newborn, our husband that needs our attention, our friend, our another family member, or even yourself, right? Maybe you’re just at a burnout. And you’re feeling really run down and your tank is empty, you don’t have it to offer.

And that’s okay. We are so conditioned to be givers. And when the tank is low, I’m not at my best self. And then that brings shame of I’m not a good enough mom, or I’m not good enough wife, or I’m not a good enough boss. Fill in the blank. And. I don’t have the energy to really kind of recover cuz I’m sleep deprived, I’m exhausted, whatever.

I’m giving out too much and my tank is too low, so then I don’t have it to give what matters most to me. Yeah. So it’s so important that we are giving ourselves permission to identify when your tank is low, A boundary is necessary..

Carrie: I interviewed a cancer survivor recently who talked about accepting your limitations, but also not being defined by those limitations. Finding a balance and just respecting his energy level and what he has to give, and he has to say no to a lot of different things due to still being on a maintenance dose of chemotherapy and so forth. It was interesting to have that conversation because I think that it’s hard and somewhat painful sometimes for us to admit our limitations, to admit that we have a low level of bandwidth, or that we’re exhausted right now, or because of our mental health struggles, we’re not able to do something that’s a hard admittance sometimes for people.

Kristen: It is because the shame tells us you should do it. You should be a giver. You should be a good Christian, you should be a good person, you should be a good mom, you should be a good volunteer. The shame stories that we have and the conditioning block us from actually taking care of ourselves. Because once we get to the body shut down, we are really depleted. If we are getting sick, we are getting run down like we are. The body has tried to give us signals all along, but we’ve pushed through and now the body is saying, screaming at us. I am begging you to set these boundaries. I am begging you to listen to me, that I can’t keep going.

But the shame says, “Oh, but what are they gonna think if I say no?” See, the shame stories are big. Yes. And they block us from having the healthy boundaries many times. Absolutely. So watching the shame stories though should, and that guilt really is an invitation for us to go, Okay, I need to kind of regroup here.

I need to take a pause. And sometimes taking a pause to give you some time to come up with how you’re gonna respond is okay. Thank you for asking. Let me check my calendar and I’ll get back to you. So that pause can give you the space to then reenter and come back with. Thank you so much for asking. I wish I had the time. Unfortunately, I don’t Keep me in mind for next time, or you don’t even have to say, keep me in mind for next.

Balancing Work and Personal Boundaries: The Challenge of Saying No

Carrie: I have to admit that we’re gonna start talking about work boundaries right now, and I admit that I’m my own boss and I imagine you’re your own boss and have been for some time right now. But I have had many bosses in my day.

Don’t be fooled. I remember what it’s like to have a boss. Don’t worry. And I think a lot of times people feel like I can’t set a boundary at work because my job is my livelihood and I cannot threaten my livelihood. Will you talk to us about that piece a little bit? Because I feel like we are in the day and age where employers will just push and push and push the envelope to burn people out and sometimes don’t care.

Kristen: This is a whole different world now with the phones and we are mobile. Yes. So the boundaries feel very diffuse and like we feel like we should respond to the email right away, or they’re gonna think they’re, I’m not working, or they’re gonna think I’m not doing my job. So there’s a lot of fear in setting with authority figure, so to speak, where it feels like your livelihood is tied to your performance. And oftentimes I’ll work a lot with clients on, okay, let’s really take a look at what’s realistic for you to be able to do and what isn’t. And the lines are very blurry there, right? Because they feel like they should be doing all of this. And then we’ll walk into, okay, what are you really wanting to say to your boss? pretend like, or I’m your boss. What would you really wanna say to your boss? And it’s. So their brains kind of have to fight flight or freeze response or fawn, right? like we talked about, that survival state response, that they don’t feel like they have a voice. And so we’ll work on, okay, what if we said something along these lines, and this is just an example.

I am so grateful for this job. I love working here, and maybe you don’t. So you have to tweak this based on what’s real and true for you. So it’s authentic. We don’t want it to be inauthentic. Authenticity is good. Yes. So important. And I’m just feeling this sense of overwhelm and here and be specific.

Here’s what I think come up with solutions. What I think would be helpful is if we. Here’s what I think I can still meet deadlines with, and here’s what I’m not sure. I’m not gonna be able to meet this deadline realistically. So I come up with a solution. Here’s some ideas on how I could have so and so really help me with this piece or that piece.

Oftentimes we get into, I’ve gotta do it. Without thinking about other solutions or options. Yes, that’s very true. Not knowing how to delegate or how to work as a team or ask for help. Those are all very important skills to have in these situations. Well, we can say I feel overwhelmed and I kind of feel like I’m knocking at the door of burnout.

Overcoming Shame and Guilt: Setting Boundaries for Self-Care

Those are important conversations now that really a lot of companies are talking about because their employees are burned out. And is this a healthy environment? This is the other thing sometimes we have to explore. Is this a healthy environment for you? If not, and this can be a journey, this is overnight.

Do we start looking for other options that might be a healthier fit for you? Yeah. That you’re gonna be able to have some limits. And so at five o’clock you’re. So some folks just need a healthier environment and it depends on, So it depends on the health of the organization too. So if you have this conversation and it’s not received well, then we have to process on the back end, what comes up for you?

Is this the best fit for you? Is this the best job for you? Now, that’s not always. Sometimes that’s what is a great job, and it is a great. And it’s worth exploration to say, what is my fear if I speak up? A lot of times it’s, I’m gonna lose my job. I’m not gonna get the promotion. They’re gonna think I can’t handle it.

I’m just naming a few, right? Sure. They’re afraid of rejection, they’re afraid of failure. And when we can process what’s really at the root of that? Then we start having a voice. So there’s an important concept here. I think when we talk about boundaries, it’s not talked about often that is essential. And as therapists, you’ve heard of this before, but we look at the human developmental continuum.

I’m gonna throw this out there cause I think it can really be helpful for people when they’re looking at workplace boundaries or boundaries in a family system or in a marriage or in a partnership. There’s a concept called individuation and separation. Okay, This is differentiation.

Boundaries in Family Dynamics: Codependency and Setting Limits

So in a family system, if you’re allowed to have your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions, and it’s okay, it’s celebrated. It’s a normal part of human development. It’s not a threat to the system. The system can say it’s okay. This is normal for you to question things, for you to kind of integrate what your own thoughts and feelings and opinions about it to land on, what resonates for you.

If we weren’t allowed to do that in a family system, we are gonna struggle with boundaries. That makes a lot of sense. So if we weren’t allowed to differentiate ourselves from the, like the thoughts and feelings and opinions of the family, you weren’t allowed to have your own kind of questioning and exploration and question things, and you could do that in the family and you could feel differently about something and that was okay.

It wasn’t a threat to the system. You’re gonna feel more confident having a boundary. Yes. If you didn’t get that and it was, which a lot of people didn’t right, that it was threatening to the system. You were disciplined, you were punished, you were ashamed, you were not allowed to kind of explore your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions.

It’s gonna be very scary to say how you feel. So a lot of times what we work on is being able to have your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions without. Threat. Like you’re scared that you’re going into a survival state and trying to fawn or people please, Right? Or you shut down and you just go in a freeze.

If someone gets upset with you, you have, you’re, we’re building that window of tolerance that to tolerate that it’s okay if they have a different opinion. It’s not okay if they yell at you, but it’s okay if they get sad over something that you’re like, Ooh. It’s okay. You’re not responsible for managing that emotion.

So in the workplace, when you can go, it’s okay for me to say, this is what I can do and this is what I can’t do. Yeah. We then have more centeredness and a voice. So that individuation process is very important to explore what we set boundaries.

Carrie: Yes, absolutely. In the sense of, you know, a lot of family dynamics.

There’s a level of codependency, not just in homes with people who have substance abuse issues, but in other homes as well, where it was like, well, we had to do. Please mom at all costs or please dad at all costs. And then if we went against anything on that, there was maybe harsh punishment because it was Dad’s way or the highway.

I find that in those situations, yes, boundaries are very difficult and a lot of times I work with my clients on. Kind of like goals of adolescence maybe that they never achieved. Because I really feel like what you’re talking about is part of a goal of adolescence is like you go out, you explore the world, you decide what you like and don’t like.

You decide what things you wanna take from your family and what things you don’t. And in some situations, That was not allowed. Kids were very sheltered or shamed for having a difference of opinion or thinking on their own. This is definitely very relevant. So let’s say that your boss asked you to take on a large project for work.

It’s not a requirement. But it definitely would help. Your career might say, you aced this project, it would give you a promotion. You’re also in the process of caring for your elderly mother. Don’t feel you have the mental and emotional energy to give your best work to this project, require additional work hours, additional stress, and you don’t want to disappoint your boss and are afraid of maybe hurting your career or not getting that promotion.

Kristen: This is so big to unpack So many, lots of layers. Lots of layers, and it depends on what do you want, Like how badly do you want the promotion On a zero to 10, I have people do a lot of scaling so they can get more clarity on their internal needs in wants. So I’ll go on a zero to 10. 10 being, I’ll do whatever it takes.

A hundred percent. I want the promotion zero. Nah, don’t really want it at. So sometimes we don’t, even if we weren’t allowed to differentiate, we don’t even explore. Why do I want that? It’s like the first step. Yeah. Or are we doing an automatic response, like that’s the next step. I need the promotion and that’s like my next thing.

I’m not even looking at, do I really want it? Why do I really want it? Can I even handle it? So let’s say you do really want it just to play this out. Let’s say you really want promotion and you’re still taking care of your elderly mother. Here’s the bottom line you’re gonna need.

Carrie: Yes,

Choosing Priorities: Balancing Career Goals and Caregiving Responsibilities

Kristen: I am much more rooted in reality and the reality rather than the fantasy of what we think we can do.

The reality is you won’t be able to do both well, I mean, you won’t be able to do it all. We know this. It’s a fantasy. If I think I can do it all, something’s gonna give and it’s gonna be my health, it’s gonna be, I’m gonna feel resentful towards my mom. The job I’m gonna go to burnout. So I think the first thing when we look at that is, am I willing to ask for help?

Yes. If I’m not, I’m probably not gonna be able to do this promotion well, and it’s probably gonna be a cost to me. So I think the first thing is asking yourself, what do I want? Am I willing to ask for help? And let’s say you are. Let’s say you’re like, Yes, I can do it. Okay. I think being transparent with the boss and saying, Here’s, and I know this is feeling very, I’m about authenticity, requires transparency.

And that the truth self set you free. Now it’s a healthy work environment. They’re gonna go, Oh, I, that makes sense to me. If you say something like, I really, really would love to take this promotion. This is something I’m passionate about, I really am excited about, and I wanna let you know I’m taking care of my elderly mom.

And so there may be times where I might have an emergency and I’ve gotta buzz out, or I have to take care of my. I’m going to be seeing if I can get some help with my mom. I wanted to let you know up front to be transparent. So my nervous system then goes, Okay, I’ve told them up front. I was transparent up front about my what’s going on so they know, and maybe they’re not comfortable giving you the promotion at that time.

That’s a risk you run. But transparency leads to. If we’re hiding, we’re maneuvering. We’re trying to act like we have it all together. That will lead you down the road to exhaustion. Yeah. It will lead you down to the road to unfulfillment and dissatisfaction and resentment. Every time I’m like, play the movie out, I’ll say something to a client like, I’ll go, Okay, play the movie out.

Like you get the promotion and you’re taking care of your elderly mom. Tell me what you see in the movie. They’re like, I can’t do it. I’m burned out, exhausted. I’m like, Okay, so what would you need in order to take the promotion and take care of your mom? So we get more clarity when we play the movie out of what is real for me, What will work for me, what won’t work for me.

And now we have to work on the courage to say it out loud. That’s the hardest part, typically. Mm-hmm. is saying it out loud cause we’re scared we’re gonna, then they won’t consider us for the promotion. But real in the reality of things, when you’re transparent, builds trust, transparency builds trust. It’s whenever there’s a betrayal, we know that transparency is essential to rebuild that trust over.

So when you’re with a boss and you’re transparent, the boss goes, Oh, I really appreciate you sharing that with me. Yeah. If you have a healthy boss, right? I mean, this is mm-hmm. . So there’s a lot of layers to this to consider when setting a boundary. Yeah, for sure. And I’ve definitely been in environments where I was transparent and it was used against me, and of course that made me pull back and not want to be transparent.

So recognizing what your relationship is with your supervisor. How that information is gonna be utilized. I do find that people are much more understanding when we’re upfront about things versus when we’re not. We don’t have to overshare. That’s the other key. It’s you don’t have to give every detail.

It’s a high level, I’m taking care of my EL elderly mom, and if it’s not received well, that’s information for us. , Yes. Evaluate whether the long term, this is gonna be a healthy place of employment. And that’s key information. So like you said, it’s used against you, which has the, which happens, which definitely happens.

Is this gonna be a long term healthy environment for you to continue to work in? Right. And that’s scary for people to think about changing, Right. Their place of employment. And it can also be empowering when they do decide to make a change, whatever that looks.

Carrie: I was in a, what I would consider a toxic work environment for a period.

And what I realized in that process was there were a couple times they would vacillate between, We love you, we hate you. And when they loved me, they loved me. And when they hated me, they hated me. But when they were on the downswing, they would say, Well, we’re just not really sure that this job is a good fit for you.

And I think that I took that inadequacy shame piece, like, Oh, I’m not enough. I’m not living up to the expectations. And it’s so interesting to be out of that environment and to be on the other side now saying they were right. That job wasn’t a good fit for me and there’s nothing wrong with that. It just didn’t fit the fullness of who I was and what I wanted and how I wanted to show up for clients that wasn’t me.

And it’s okay that it wasn’t. Made for somebody else. I could see you even lit up. Like the freedom you felt like they were. Right. That wasn’t the right job for me. It was stifling you. It was like it wasn’t expanding you. Yes. Full gifts was stifling you. Yeah. But it’s hard sometimes when you’re in the middle of it, and I think that’s why talking to someone like a healthy friend, family where a counselor can help you process through some of these things to know like, this is what they’re saying and this is what I’m sensing, and what’s your objectivity on it? Cause you can feel in those type of toxic work environments where the expectations are too high, sometimes you can start to feel a little crazy or inadequate like, Well, I mean I see other people maybe doing this or they’re expecting that I do this, so I must able to do it and that’s just not always the case.

Kristen: Yes. And I think talking through it, cuz sometimes our work environments mirror our family dynamics that we grew up in. Yeah. So it’s hard to see clearly cuz we’re reenacting almost like the same system we grew up in. We just don’t know. Cause it just seems normal to us.

It seems familiar until you start doing your own healing. And then you’re like, Oh, I recreated the same family system dynamic at work. Oh, and I did that in my other romantic relationship. Yes. And there’s the light bulb. That’s why that self-awareness piece and understanding families, not to blame anybody cuz that’s not the idea.

The idea is empowerment to go, I can break the chain of this dynamic. I can see now the parallel between my work environment and my home environ. And how I put myself in that same role and didn’t recognize it. So I wanted to kinda shift gears. I know we’re cramming a lot into this episode. It’s so good. I know that Christians a lot of times struggle feeling like I have to say yes, I’ve gotta help people.

God wants me to be giving. God wants me to be hospitable. And how would you really encourage these individuals that it is okay to say no sometimes. And you’re still a good Christian. I love the and in both. So I can be a loving, caring, compassionate person. As long as I’m having boundaries, I can still be that, but I might be resentful.

I might be worn out. I might be angry because now I’m giving and I might take on a martyrdom role. God doesn’t want us to, like, you’ll have some people, maybe your family system that they were like, I’ve done everything I’ve given, I’ve given here, I’ve given there, and now they’ve taken on this. Look at me.

I’ve done everything role. And they feel bitter and resentment, and it comes in between their relationships that matter the most, Maybe. With their child, maybe with their partner, maybe with their church group. It doesn’t, so that can lead. If we don’t have boundaries, it’s hard to be our best-giving self cuz I’m giving, and there’s resentment tied to it.

We wanna be giving because we are led to be like, Oh, I want to do that because I feel filled up. I now have enough to pour out and I don’t expect anything. There is no ties to needing anything back. I’m doing it because it’s pure agape love, like I’m just letting it flow from my soul. If I’m doing it out of a, I should be doing this consistently, you’re gonna be on the road to resentment and expectations or resentments waiting to happen.

We are just going to feel a level of burnout. And resentment that doesn’t feel good to us, and we’re gonna be like, Why am I even doing this? No one cares. No one even acknowledges me. And when we get to a thank you is wonderful. And I love a good, and, and we don’t wanna do it to get a thank you. Yes, that’s true.

It’s icy on the cake like it feels. That’s why I love acknowledgement cuz it feels so good to our nervous system cuz we all wanna feel seen, appreciated, understood, and loved so much. And when we are filling our tanks up, we can give that out freely and it feels so amazing to just give it without any expectation back icy on the cake.

Carrie: So tell us a little bit about where to find you and what you have going on.

Kristen: So close The chapter podcast is probably the best place to find me. And then on Instagram and Facebook, you know, all the socials at Kristen d Boyce. And then if you want a free journal that I love to give out to my clients and it’s free, you can reuse it. Beause I’m a big journaler and I believe in it in terms of getting clarity from the Holy Spirit. Like it just is so powerful to get centered at kristendvoice/free resources and it will be emailed to your in. And what I love about that is I love how God gave us the breath to kind of come back.

Yeah. Reground us in nature and all these gifts. And if we can come back to ourselves and listen to the leading and have clarity, that is the leading, that is in our fear talking. That’s the Holy Spirit talking. Our nervous systems are freed. And there’s so much healing that can take place when that happens.

So I’m a firm believer in journaling. I love it. That’s why I wanna give it to everybody. I’m like here, cuz everybody’s like, Well, I don’t really like journaling, and what am I gonna write about? And this helps kind of guide the process.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I like that. So since this podcast is called Hope for Anxiety and O C D, we like our guests to share a story of hope at the end. A time where you received hope from God or another person.

Kristen: There’s so many. Really what came through to me when I was praying over this question, I was thinking about a client just came through, and I’m not gonna give specifics, but when I work with people that you feel like, how are they ever gonna recover from this loss or this trauma?

And you think, how can they get up in the morning? How are they gonna move when you’ve lost all your children due to a tragedy? How are you going to ever recover from that? And I’ve seen over and over and over again how God like pours into the pain. And once we work and acknowledge the pain, God can tend to it and walk alongside us in it.

I always think like Jesus walking hand in hand with us going, I know honey, I know it. And I know this is so painful and you can’t understand it right now. Yeah. And I’m right here with you just holding the pain for you. And that’s the privilege of seeing God’s transformation was some of the most painful things anyone could ever go through.

And the second piece that came to me is as a community, we had a school shooting back in, Oh yeah. It was several years ago. No one would’ve ever expected that to happen in our backyard. And as a community, it opened us up in such a way for healing. For us to come together, love one another, and acknowledge each other’s pain and fear.

Yeah, and just so there was so much transformation that happened in a whole community. And as a result, I do a, every other week, this is about me, but as a result, not of just the shooting, but at the pandemic. Mental Health Monday with our mayor on Facebook, and now we’re talking about mental health. We’re talking about all these hard topics that’s transformation.

Like here we are trying to hold the pain and acknowledge people’s pain in the midst of all of this. And we came together despite trauma and tragedy. So those are the two things that came to me when you were asking that question.

Carrie: Mental health Monday with the mayor. That’s a lot of ems, but I like it.

It is. It is. We don’t say with the mayor. I just was adding that piece. It’s just called Mental Health Mondays.

Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your wisdom. I think this is gonna be very practical for people who are looking to set boundaries and then also identifying throughout.

We kind of identified some things that get in the way of people are struggling with anxiety of setting boundaries.

Kristen: Thank you so much for having me on, and the work you’re doing.

83. The Power of Gratitude and What I am Thankful For

Written by Carrie Bock on November 23, 2022. Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 83. The Power of Gratitude and What I am Thankful For

Today’s special is a solo episode about the power of gratitude and how it can help us through hard times.

Things I’m grateful for
How to be grateful in any circumstances
What the Bible teaches us about gratitude
What are the benefits of gratitude
How to practice gratitude and enjoy the simple things in life

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 83. Today on the show, we are talking about the power of gratitude and some things that I am thankful for in this season. It’s been a unique season to be writing a list of things that I’m thankful for because we’re definitely going through some challenges right now, but I thought that working through this with you might kind of help you think through some things that you are thankful for as well as we go along the process.

Biblical Teachings on Gratitude and Thankfulness

You can think of people in situations, positive things that are going on in your life right now. Throughout the Bible we are told to be thankful and I just wanted to go over a few verses with you that express this. Of course, there’s many that we could cover together obviously, but I just picked out a few that I thought would be good. 1 Thessalonians 5: 18 says, “Give thanks In all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” All circumstances. It’s not always easy to be thankful. That is a tough one, but we’ll talk about that a little bit more in-depth later.

This next verse literally changed my life. I’ve probably talked about this on the podcast before. In fact, I know I have is James1:17. “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” This first changed my life because I read it while I was going through my divorce in very dark time of my life, and I realized that if there was anything good in my life that God put it there, and it just caused me to be so thankful and really just pour out a lot of gratitude towards God in prayer for all the little things I had to be intentional in that time to be thankful and to find those things that were good in my life.

When you’re intentional and you look for things to be thankful for, you will find them. Where most of us are pretty familiar with another scripture passage in Philippians 4 that talks about don’t be anxious about anything. Oftentimes we don’t rewind a couple verses before where it says, “Rejoice in the Lord. Always. Again, I will say rejoice.” So when they repeat things in the Bible, it’s for emphasis purposes. When you’re reading something, it doesn’t have a tone of voice to it, but if you repeat it, it’s like, “Oh, hey, that’s important.” This sense of like finding joy in the Lord. That is can help us with our anxiety and a lot of times we don’t take that into consideration. I talked about this on a blog post, I believe a while back that’s on our website and maybe my assistant can link that to in our show notes for you guys. In Hebrews 13: 15, it says, “Through him, then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God. That is the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.”

Sometimes praising God does feel like a sacrifice. Of course, in the biblical times in the Old Testament, people actually did like provide physical sacrifices For us, it’s a sacrifice of our time. It’s a sacrifice of our energy, and it’s a sacrifice sometimes of laying down things that we. For things that God wants, but we want to be a grateful people, which is hard in our society because advertising constantly tells you about what you don’t have, and they try to tell you what you should want and need.
We are inundated with advertisements, whether from the internet, from tv, from media that are constantly telling us, you know, “You need this car because it’s gonna make you feel like a million dollars,” or You need this product because it’s gonna help you get a member of the opposite sex,” whatever the case is.

Finding Gratitude in Challenging Circumstances

So we’re constantly put in this state of like, “Oh, I don’t have that.” Or like, “Oh, I want that.” And it is not so healthy for us, and we have to shift gears out of that. To really look around us and be thankful for the blessings that God has given us the simple things maybe each and every day, and I know that for me, I never really used to be a thankful person.

I struggled a lot with that since I was a child. Really just with this the glass half empty instead of half full mindset. My parents, I would be kind of like grumbling and complainy and they would say, “Carrie, tell us something you’re thankful for. ” And when you’re grumbling as a child, that is not exactly when you want to be thankful.

Gratitude and its Positive Impact on Mental and Physical Well-being

I do appreciate that they tried, but I don’t think it really helped me become a thankful person. What probably helped me the most were those dark times in my life and having use gratitude to pull myself out of them. I have told you what the scripture said about being thankful in gratitude, but also wanted to tell you what the psychology says about it, which shouldn’t surprise you, but here we go. “People who practice gratitude feel better physically and emotionally.” That’s awesome. They’re happier, they have better immune function. Whoa! That just blows my mind like our body works better in terms of our immunity.

If we are practicing gratitude, they sleep better, they have more ability to be in the moment and cope with life is really where mindfulness comes in. This sense of just being in the present moment. Gratitude is a present-moment activity. You can’t be stuck in past regret or be worried about the future and be grateful at the same time. Those two things can’t coexist inside your system.

Incorporating Gratitude into Daily Life

So how can we practice gratitude? I used to have this, I think it’s called the Five Minute Journal, something like that.
And you do maybe five minutes in the morning or five minutes in the evening. I can’t remember. But I ask you the same exact questions every day, and one of the questions it asks you is, I believe, like three things you’re thankful for, which is great, but I think it gets a little mundane after a while because you tend to kind of think about some of the same things, right? Like if somebody were to ask you, what are you grateful for? Like, “Okay, well I’m grateful for this person in my life, or I’m grateful for my child. I’m grateful for waking up today.” You know, it’s a new day and it’s hard to get specific. So I would encourage you if you struggle with gratitude, I’ll just tell you some things that I did that helped me.

I had a little one of those pocket calendars from like the dollar store. It’s not even the dollar store anymore. That’s sad. But anyway, I had one of those pocket calendars I would write on each day. Something specific about that day that maybe had happened that I was thankful for, or maybe that I noticed, like, “okay, I was thankful today that I got to smell some flowers outside and they smelled really good.” Or I’m thankful that you know, I got gift today from somebody, it was just a card, them telling me they cared about me, whatever the case is, and a lot of times I could go back and read those and you forget, you know, if you don’t write something down, a lot of times you forget that some of those things have even occurred.

It’s just a really great activity as a practice and it doesn’t take very long at all like two minutes to write something down on the calendar. I do think it’s important to be very specific. In your gratitude practice, even if it’s not about that day, just being in prayer and meditation of, “Okay, I am thankful for these very specific things.”

Personal Examples of Thankfulness and God’s Provision

So I thought I would go through some of that for you guys of what I’m thankful for in my life. Maybe to give you examples, I am specifically really thankful for my husband. You guys have heard Steve on the podcast before. If you’ve been around for a little while, if you’ve listened to any of. Marriage episodes together, he has an incredibly positive attitude, even though he’s going through some intense physical balance challenges right now. He got in what’s called vestibular therapy, which is for balance walking, those types of things. It’s a very specific type of physical therapy, and I really see how hard he works, how much effort he puts towards that, and his therapist tells him, “You know, a lot of people with your condition, they just sit down and they stop working and if you don’t use it, you’ll lose it. Those types of things. So I really see how he will tell other people, a lot of times if they feel bad or say, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that.

Oftentimes people will say, everyone goes through something and this is my something that I have, and you know, it’s.
He has this incredible gift and ability that he doesn’t worry about things. I wish he could give me that. I don’t know how he does that, but he just somehow he knows or has his just like internal confidence compass that it, it’s like everything’s gonna be okay. I’m like, can I get some of that? That is a gift.

Steve is also has a great heart just desiring to help other people. He writes me little encouraging notes around the house. A big thing that he and I are thankful for is that he went back for. His follow-up after a year of working with his eye specialist and he hasn’t had changes in vision, so we are so thankful for that, even though he’s had these other balance challenges.
I think at least I lived in fear for a little while that he was going to go blind, and so I’m just thankful that he’s not blind and he’s able to see his daughter grow up and at this point he’s not in a wheelchair. He’s still able to walk and still able to get around and have some levels of I. We are thankful for that every day that he has that ability. We have been told recently that it’s not really if you’re in a wheelchair, it’s more of when you’re in a wheelchair, but nobody can tell you if that is 10 years down the road or two years down the road, or six months down the road, which is hard for life cleaning.

Of course, I am also incredibly thankful for my daughter Faith. She just has this smile that lights up the entire room when she wakes up in a good mood. You love it. And she doesn’t always wake up in a good mood, cuz you know, a lot of times she’s hungry, but sometimes she wakes up from a nap or after she’s, you know, gone back to sleep and woken up and just smile at you like, she’s so happy to see you. That’s the best thing that happened to her day, which is really great. She is pretty easy baby, like pretty easy going and she just adapts. You know, I have to take her. We go to various appointments and things for Steve, and a lot of times I will take her and stroll her around while he’s in an appointment or something of that nature, and she just kind of goes with the flow. She sleeps really well in the car, so thankful for that because if she didn’t sleep well in the car, or wasn’t able to get her naps in that way, some days, that would be really tough on her.

I think one of the favorite things, blessings, in terms of her right now is just being able to hold her. She’s going to sleep and rock her, and just kind of like that sense of gentle trust that she has in us right now. I know that one day she’s gonna get older and not wanna cuddle up to me, so I’m trying to enjoy all the cuddles while I can.

We are very thankful that we have a house to live and that’s in good shape. We have been praying about a one-storey house and it looks like we may be able to move into one pretty soon, possibly in January. It’s kind of a still a possibility, not a for sure thing, but so thankful for that, that God seems to be answering that prayer. If for some reason that doesn’t work out, I know that he will provide something else for us that was really going to just take a lot of pressure and stress off of us with all of the balance conditions that Steve’s having. Our driveway is crazy and we have stairs and then some more stairs when you get into our house. It’s just people are kinda like, “Why don’t you build a ramp?” And I’m like, “It’s not that easy.” I appreciate those people that have wanted to do that for us. However, we really just need to get into one storey with some flat land and it looks like God is opening up that door and providing that for us, and also will be able to still be, you know, local. We’re not moving super far or anything like that, so that’s nice.

I am thankful for my car. Let me tell you this, I got the opportunity to drive this, let’s call it a small SUV. It was a 2002 and we drove it to Florida for a family funeral and had to bring some stuff back with us and so forth. So that was why we didn’t choose not to fly for that one, and I so enjoyed driving this car. It does all the things that like my car does not do because my car is a 2013. However, I will tell you that I’m so thankful that our car is paid off. I joke around that it’s the only car I know of that has a walker and a baby stroller in it, and we really have to kind of cram stuff in there. It’s not a big car and so enjoyed driving that, that small SUV because we just had room for things. So thankful for our car and that God has provided us a way to get to Steve, to his medical appointments and Faith when she has appointments and checkups and things that we can take her there, that we can get to the grocery store, other things. So I’m really thankful that our car is running well and that it’s paid off.
It’s not the newest thing in the world, but it gets us from point A to point B, and we’re thankful for that for sure.

I’m super thankful for God’s financial provision in this season. We’ve had a lot of medical bills, obviously for everything that’s going on with Steve, and I wanna tell you a quick story because this is just a story of faith. I want to write down for my daughter to let her know that God hears and God understands and he knows like exactly what we need. I had an unexpected expense come up recently that I really, you know, did not know I was gonna be hit. And it was $300. I was like, Okay. You know, trying to think through where is this $300 gonna come from, so forth. So I just, I prayed to God and I said, “You knew that this $300 bill was gonna come. I didn’t know it was gonna come. And so, because you knew it was gonna come, I just believed that they’re gonna get the $300 and I don’t know. Like how we’re gonna get it. I don’t know where it’s gonna come from.: I just pray and I believe that you’re gonna provide it for us because this is something that we really need.
And no lie, literally the next day we get a card that has a hundred dollars in it. We get another card that has $200 in it. Completely was not expecting that, and it was just like God showing me like, :Yes, I’m taking care of you. I know exactly what you need. I’ve got you.” God will do that for you.

That’s not just like a God does that for care thing. God will originally supply all your needs according to his glorious riches and Christ Jesus. Philippians, I believe that’s 4:19 tells us, and that’s just something that I have repeated to myself over and over. You know, as we get these different medical bills and therapies and things like that, I’m like, You know, God will supply all my needs. God will supply all my needs. It just almost has become like this prayer that I have repeated and has helped me really calm during those seasons where I get anxious about bills. I am super thankful for our church in this season.

Something happened to us and I actually asked Steve if he wanted to talk about this on our marriage episode, and I don’t think that he wanted to talk about it, but I feel like it’s important and it’s important to talk about for the Thanksgiving episode, God uprooted us from a church, a place that I had been in for several years. Steve had been in since we were married, and I believe that God uprooted us because he wanted to plant us somewhere else. But I will say that there was a time period in between where we were a bit lost, going through some hard things that were going on in the family. And didn’t really have support like it was just rough, trying to kind of reach out to people even emotionally and say, “Will you pray with us? We have this and this and this going on in our families.” And it was just, it was tough. We weren’t getting the support and even just the prayer support that we needed in that season. And I’m telling you that God did what only he can do. He planted us in a completely new church that someone had invited us to. We knew the moment we walked in the door that this is exactly where we’re supposed to be. This is what we have wanted for months, um, for a long time. And it was around the time where Steve got his diagnosis shortly after we started going there. And there’s just been this outpouring of love of people that barely know us, really. I mean, that brought us over meals that have taken, driven him to appointments that have just, you know, brought us things that we needed. Absolutely incredible. Totally blown us away. We feel very undeserving but just incredibly grateful that God has put us in this place to be really wrapped around and loved by these people in a big way.

We have a great small group through that church as well, and it’s just been good positive relationships for us in this season. And with that, I will say that I am thankful, even though it’s been hard this year. I am thankful for my friendships.
I’m thankful for the people that God kept in my life and I’m thankful for the people that have walked away, which may sound super weird because it’s definitely not comfortable. It’s actually pretty painful when people walk away from your life or when you know you, you have a friend and they’re just kind of, they’re disconnected and not really there for you.
That can be super challenging. However, I think what I’ve learned over the year is that God brings different people into our lives for different seasons, and some people are meant to go that one or two miles with us, and some people are meant to go that those 10 miles or 10 years with us. And not everybody is meant to go that far with you, but it’s definitely a blessing when you have one of those longer-term relationships.

I’m thankful that the people in my life right now are people who are really invested in mine and Steve’s wellbeing, and that I feel incredibly thankful and blessed about. I am thankful for going through some of these challenging things recently because it has made me be a stronger person and draw me closer to God.

When Steve first got diagnosed, I remember thinking like, I don’t have the prayer life for this. I don’t have the dependence on God that I need in my life to get through this. So that has been something that I have been actively cultivating. Definitely still in process. But I know that even though it’s hard, each day brings me closer and closer to God and to knowing who he is and understanding his purposes for our life.

And this year, how do I explain this one? Because I am not thankful that someone died, but I had a close family member pass away this year. It’s not something that I’m ready to talk about in-depth, but I believe that I will at some point in the podcast because I think it’s important to share that story with you and my process of that grief. The piece that I’m thankful for though is not that I lost a family member. I am thankful that that family member is in heaven. I’m very thankful that they’re no longer suffering because they were suffering with cancer really badly, and I’m thankful that God in his sovereignty at the right time, took them home and didn’t allow them to suffer than they already did because it was just, it was a lot. And I’m thankful that even though that family member isn’t here with me anymore, that I really feel still very connected with them. And I feel like I know kind of what they would say to me in different scenarios, in different situations in my life.

So I’m thankful that even though I’ve lost that family member, I still feel close to them. It’s very bizarre because I haven’t ever had this experience before with anyone else that I’ve lost. I think it’s because I was not as close to other family members that I have lost before, but since I was very close to this individual, it’s allowed me to still feel very connected or having some kind of sense of presence to them. And that’s the only way that I can explain it. I don’t really know what it means other than maybe we are somehow connected in on a spiritual level. I don’t know.

So that’s the roundup on what I am thankful and grateful for. I hope that it helped you make your own list or helped you think about how you can incorporate gratitude into your own practice, spiritually and emotionally which will also help you physically as we learned earlier.

It’s so incredible how God has created our systems to interconnect emotionally, physically, and spiritually. It’s just so intertwined and it makes so much sense when we read the Bible and then we look at these psychological studies. They’re not in contradiction to each other, right?

The Bible says, Give thanks and then the studies say, “Hey, giving thanks causes all of these positive health benefits.” It’s just so cool when we look at things like that. I think just confirmation of things that we know to be true. We’ve got one more episode this year on how to set a boundary, and it’s a good one.

I asked our guests to go through some very specific scenarios with us on what she would say and how she would handle the situations that I brought up. I think it’s great, and it may help some of you as you’re going into the Christmas season or spending more time with family. We’re only putting out one episode in December to take a little bit of a break for Christmas and end of the year. We will definitely be back in January with some question-and-answer episodes on anxiety and then on OCD. So please send us your burning questions that you have either for the Q and A anxiety episode or the Q and A OCD episode. We would love to feature your question on the air. You may send those via our website at hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

As always, thank you so much for listening.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Related Resources:

What About this Command to Not Be Anxious

82. Trauma-Informed Ministry with Suzanne Burns

Written by Carrie Bock on November 9, 2022. Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 82. Trauma-Informed Ministry with Suzanne Burns

Suzanne Burns, founder and executive director of Foundation House Ministries and BeCharityWise. Today on the show, she will share with us about creating a trauma-informed ministry.

How Suzanne started her work with mothers in crisis situations
What led her to do some more research about trauma-informed
How to effectively minister to people
Reframing the role of ministry
More about BeCharityWise

BeCharityWise

Foundation House Ministries

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 82. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and if you’re new to our show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. Today on the show, I’ll be talking with Suzanne Burns about creating a trauma-informed ministry.

I feel like this is so important people in the church to understand and know about, and we’ve had other episodes about helping people with anxiety in the church. So I’m excited about this episode as well. Suzanne, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Suzanne: Yes, I am the founder and executive director of a maternity home, residential and non-residential program for mothers in crisis.

We serve women coming out of jail, out of rehab, pregnant, and a. Sometimes they’ve lost custody or are working towards reunification, whether that’s with family members or with the state. And so we’re part of that process towards getting them to a place of being able to build sustainable stability. And out of what we’ve learned through doing that for the last eight years, we’ve also launched a kind of a side to other churches and nonprofits to help them understand how trauma and poverty mindset and addiction affect the people that they serve so that they can serve more effectively as well.

Suzanne’s Journey and Mission to Support Women Coming out of Difficult Situations

Carrie: Awesome. Now, how did you get started in that work in, you know, mothers in crisis pregnancy situations?

Suzanne: Yeah, I was actually a single mom for a number of years, myself.

I had a crisis pregnancy when I was in college, and then, um, got grew up in a very, very Christian home and found myself by the time I was at a junior, at a Christian university, I was smoking, I was drinking, I was experimenting with illegal drugs, and then I ended up pregnant. And we did get married and it was not good a marriage as it wasn’t a dating relationship, which led to divorce when my son was just right at two.

And then several years of single parenting, I met and married my current husband. We’ve been married now almost 20 years, had a second son. And as I began to kind of rebuild and restabilize, I wanted. Be able to give back to women that were in the same situation that I had once been in. And so I began volunteering at a local pregnancy health center, and I was there for seven years.

I ended up really, really loving it, loving what I did. But we just began seeing more and more women coming through that needed a deeper level of support. They were pregnant and living in their cars. They were afraid of being kicked out by, you know, angry stepdads. They were 24 and didn’t have a g e d kind of floating like a leaf in the wind.

So many of these girls, one particular mom that I recall, she came in one day and she was really frustrated because she had been looking for a job. And so I’m kind of a fixer. So I was asking her, “You know, maybe, are you applying for the wrong kinds of jobs? Are you a poor interviewee? How can I help you fix the problem?”

And she said. “Well, you know, at some point in the interview the baby gets fussy or he needs a diaper change and you know, I’m pretty sure the interview is kind of over at that point.” And of course, my first thought was, “Oh, I’m pretty sure the interview was over when they saw you pushing in the baby stroller.”

But I had been there long enough that I knew that’s never the full picture. So as I began asking more questions, I realized that the reason she was taking her child with her in the first place was because she was living with the baby’s father who was a violent drug dealer and people in and out all day and night.

And so she did not trust him to watch their son even long enough for her to get a job. And I went home that day and told my husband, We have got to do something. It has to be. No one else has stepped up. It has to be us. It took about two and a half years of fundraising and developing, and we opened in 2014 and that conversation was in June of 2011.

Getting Started and Early Challenges

Carrie: Wow. Tell us about, as you started that ministry and were working in it, some of the challenges that you had earlier on that led you to do some more research about trauma information.

Suzanne: Yeah, it was pretty much everything I’ve learned has been because a client came in that we didn’t understand or we didn’t know how to handle, and that is what sent us then to the research.

The Lord is so gracious in giving me a picture and then giving me the education behind it, and then bringing others who need me to know that information. So first it was a poverty mindset, understanding how chronic poverty kind of reshapes. Thinking the worldview of individuals living, especially those living in generational chronic poverty.

Then we started getting some clients coming in who had a history of trauma, but we didn’t understand what that meant at the time because I was used to seeing clients like. One hour every three weeks. You know, living with them is a whole lot different. And so we were getting frustrated and, and we were having a lot of girls come in and go right back out again.

We had one girl come in and she was sick constantly and it was always like an E.R worthy trip. She would go in to, you know, about every three to four. And we began to like time. We began to say, Okay, well it’s been, you know, this period of time we’re about due. And it was always like bladder infection, urinary tracted infection.

It was always something similar but not exactly the same thing. And it was always validated by the doctors, because of course we were like, well, you know, at some point she’s gotta be faking it. and simultaneously with this, she was also losing jobs because of the time off that she was having to take her cycles was six weeks.

And so we were seeing that about every five weeks she was, you know, getting sick, not able to go to work. Her work isn’t happy. They end up firing her, she goes to the er and then we start the cycle all over again. She ended up that year with 13 different W two. And we were so confused. We were so frustrated cuz she was super, super sweet.

And then we had another girl move into the house who like used unbelievable amounts of toilet paper just by herself. This was way pre-pandemic, way before there was an actual toilet paper black market. But we were just like, how is this disappearing? How can one person be using this much? What is going on?

Understanding Trauma-Informed Approach

And then we had a student intern, a Masters in Social work Intern, doing her their practicum with us, and she had us watch a video by Bessel VanDerKolk, who is the author of The Body, Keeps the Score and instantly pieces fell into place. Immediately, we began to realize that this is the physical outgrowth of the trauma that these women had experienced.

That was the big awakening, eye-opening. We were immediately addicted to absolutely everything, trauma-informed to the point that we began teaching others just because we knew so much. We just saw the vast needs. There’s such an ignorance and such a lack within the church to understand. It was so fascinating and it was also such a relief that, “Oh, that it can be fixed.”

There is reason why her stomach issues were so constant. There is the reason why she was unable to process, to digest the healthy nutritional foods we were giving her. Her body had actually acclimated to Mountain Dew and Cheetos for lunch because that had been for years. So when we’re having salads and you know, fresh fruit and.

That was what was abnormal to her system. So layering for me, layering the poverty mindset with the trauma made it so much easier for us to then deal with women coming in with a past of addiction. Those coming in with a history of mental health because it, to me, it’s just like a layer cake based in the generational chronic poverty thinking that then the trauma is, it is components, you know, it’s either affecting or affected by the client and.

That leads to addiction as a coping mechanism, right? It leads to mental health as an epigenetic response to the trauma. It, it’s all interrelated, but it’s all rooted in their trauma, but also rooted in poverty thinking. Just from learning all of that, we have radically revolutionized how we work with.

And we now boost a 97% success rate of our clients being able to maintain their stability at least a year post-graduation, which to us is a housing, transportation, employment, and childcare.

The ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences) Study and Its Connection to Chronic Health Conditions

Carrie: Wow. That is really amazing because those are a lot of pieces and a lot of times what we see is people come into programs and they’re doing okay and then they leave the program and they relapse or something happens and you know, they’re back into that cycle again, like you were talking about. We wanna talk a little bit about the ACEs study, and I’ll have to kind of explain this a little bit to people, and then I have a question for you. So many years ago, I think this was actually done maybe in the nineties or early two thousands, Kaiser, the eighties early is when it started.

Suzanne: Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah, so Kaiser Permanente, a healthcare company that’s out west in the US, they said, we really wanna look at these people with chronic health conditions. We weren’t even talking about mental health. They were talking about physical health, things like high blood pressure, and diabetes, and looking at the connection between what they called adverse childhood experiences and these chronic physical health condition.

They had a scale where there’s 10 items on the adverse childhood experience scale. Some of them are things like parental divorce, obviously types of abuse, you know, physical sexual abuse. I think maybe having a parent with an addiction, isn’t that on there? These types of experiences that people had in childhood, and what they found was that okay if you had one or two, there was maybe a little bit more of a risk for you to have a chronic health condition, but once you got four and above, all of a sudden it was like a graph skyrocketed at that point like “Whoa, for these people to have addictions and actually end up with not just addictions, but that was one of the things they were looking at. Like I said, the high blood pressure and cholesterol, and so. and looking at people who have had more adverse childhood experiences may even have a shorter lifespan because of some of these chronic health issues that also arise.

What you had told me when we had talked previously. The average church attender has zero to two adverse childhood experiences, or ACEs are usually and the average range for your ministry is seven to nine, so obviously, that’s a big gap to bridge in people kind of understanding what some of these women have been through like can you talk to us about like the challenges of bridging that gap?

Suzanne: Yeah, exactly. So many of them have this significant trauma history. Someone with an ACEs score of seven to nine means that they have experienced at least one instance of seven to nine of those items on the ACEs study. And just for your audience, they are physical, emotional, sexual abuse, physical or emotional neglect, and then household dysfunction category is a family member with mental illness and incarcerated relative domestic violence, mother treated violently, substance abuse or divorce, but that also can include fatherlessness. What we found was that these women are coming in and they’re carrying this load of trauma.

They’re carrying the past pain, they’re carrying the physical effects of this. They’re carrying the social and emotional and cognitive impairment because of that, you know, many of our moms about 70% did not graduate with a high school diploma or GED because all of this trauma is happening as children.

And so that is significantly affecting them as far as school goes. Then you get labeled a bad kid, and so then you begin adopting those risky health behaviours, whether it’s teen boys that are driving too fast, whether it’s dating the wrong kinds, whether it’s, you know, drugs and alcohol and, and all of these different things that then lead to disease, disability, social problems, you know, in and out of jail, in and out of rehab programs, which can then lead to early death. It can also lead to chronic heart disease, to certain forms of cancer, to COPD and so many different things that we don’t even associate usually at. For an 18 to 22-year-old, the ACEs study does demonstrate.

So we have women coming in from the church who want to volunteer. You know, in this world that have experienced, like me, the ACE questionnaire asks you from birth to age 18 that to answer that I was a zero. All of my ACEs occurred during this one single relationship. And I went from a zero to a seven and then kind of back down again once I began to get my life back together.

Challenges in Ministry and Volunteer Engagement

I have a certain degree of experience, but I cannot relate to the majority of our clients. In the fullness of what they’ve experienced. And so these little volunteers from the churches would want to come in. I experienced this when I was young, you know, I did that. And so they think that that is enough to balance out the relationship.

It really isn’t because they can’t understand the depth of the brain changes that have occurred. So one of the most important things for us when we’re talking with new prospective volunteers is to really get them to understand what has changed in the brain development of our typical client. They think differently. They respond differently. They have been conditioned to think in these certain ways, and so their behavioral patterns. It takes a long time to change those. So you’re going to see more rapid outbursts of anger. You’re gonna hear foul language as just as common. You’re going to see and hear things that you’re not going to expect in a typical ministry, and you don’t necessarily have permission to address it.

That’s usually the hardest part because that is hard. They haven’t built trust with our clients. We have, many of our volunteers want to come in and they wanna do bible. Well, many of our girls just flat aren’t interested first of all, and second of all, even if they are interested, they’re not ready for that level.

There’s a great deal of biblical illiteracy, but there’s also a lot of church hurt and church abuse that has to be gotten over before they’re ready for these types of things. And so many times they wanna come in and volunteers from the church want to come in and do these big deep Bible studies with the.

That impacted them, but they’re not a good fit for our clients because maybe they can’t read that well. Maybe they’re not equipped to do the amount of homework that is associated with some of these types of programs. Maybe they’re not ready emotionally for what is going to be unveiled. Maybe they’re not ready as far as just being able to read scripture specifically.

Some of those Old Testament names are really complicated, especially if you accidentally ask one of ’em to read out loud because you’re wanting to draw them in. You’re doing the things that in a typical church environment you want to do, it can backfire. And so we have to be really, really careful to equip our volunteers wisely so that they’re not set up for failure because our mission is not our volunteers.

Our mission is our client. And so our volunteers cannot run off our clients, but there have been several times where our clients run off volunteers.

Carrie: Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah. If you haven’t been used to that, kind of, that experience of what those people have been through in terms of the emotional reactivity that can happen with PTSD over something that, to you seems very slight, but it was a huge deal exactly for that individual.

It was a huge trigger and I think, one of the things that you’re touching on is a lot of times what the church can be guilty of is in these types of ministries going in and trying to like clean people up, like, “Here, let me help you. Here’s some money, or here’s a job, or here’s some clothes and you know, we’re just gonna fix you all up and everything’s gonna be good.” When really true transformation has to happen from the inside out.

The Importance of Understanding and Patience When Working with Individuals in the Healing Process.

I’m curious in terms of like what you’ve seen regarding that may be in your work with other ministries, kind of how you’ve helped them to like reframe that like their role.

Suzanne: Exactly. A lot of times. Well, so it’s two-fold. One is the focus internally and how you work with clients, and the other one is how you message that to the greater community, to your donor base or to your volunteer pool, or like your occasional volunteer pool.

A lot of times, I’ll use the analogy of a pound, because sometimes if you can change the picture from people to animals, it’s a little bit easier to process. Not that I’m equating our clients with. But sometimes it’s just an easier word picture to process. You find a, you know, a stray dog on the side of the road and he’s dirty and matted and, and filthy and you know, you’ve got all sorts of insects and everything crawling all over him.

He’s just really unhappy, starving. And you pick him up and you take him to the pound, they’re going to do a lot of work. They’re. Be checking him out by a doctor. They’re gonna be cleaning him and, and de fleeing and debugging him. Whatever’s crawling on him, they’re gonna be getting him the nutrition that, that he needs.

That’s a process. It’s not an instantaneous, “Oh, I found a dog on the side of the road and now he’s ready for adoption into a new home”. They have to see what’s his temperament. What kind of personality he has. Does he get along well with other animals? Does he get along with small children?

Before they can put this animal into the adoptable population, they have to do some rehab work. But when we look at people on the side of the road, it’s like we have the expectation that all you need is a shower, a hot meal, and a change of clothes, maybe a haircut. But you ought to be fine now and go get you a job and let you know.

Start paying your own way, and it’s not at all the same. The women that we work with are so broken and they have been holding themselves together for so long that a lot of times our first few months is just giving them space to finally acknowledge their broken. And finally, feel all the feelings that they have been hiding from for so long before we can even begin the process of rehabilitation to get them to the place where they can then learn, then grow, and move forward.

Our motto is rescuing mothers, rebuilding lives and restoring futures. And that is very much the progression that we walk through with these women. Rescuing can take upwards of six. Rebuilding. That’s the point where she’s finally ready to start working and getting the job skills that she needs and figuring out, you know, credit and starting to save money to buy her first vehicle because we, we live in a semi-rural area where there is not public transportation, and so a car is almost always her first goal.

And then getting daycare and getting healthy, getting her into the ob-gyn office and, and checking her out, making sure the baby is doing well. And then as she begins to kind of master some of these things and start looking towards the future. Now we can start thinking about what does rebuilding look like for her.

What does living independently look like for her? And that whole process. Overall, pre-pandemic, we were looking at six months to a year for most. And since that time, it really is more like 18 months to two years, partly because of economic changes and partly because we are seeing a significant increase in the severity of the women that come to us.

And just for a frame of reference, we’re the only maternity home within 150 miles. So we serve 13 counties by design and several others by default. So it’s a really vast population that many, many, many are in this boat, but they are not being served because we are so limited on staff in size.

Carrie: Where are you located at?

Suzanne: Right outside Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Carrie: Okay, great. Tell us about BeCarityWise.

Suzanne: Yeah, that is our training arm. We have online videos and we also do in person, whether live via Zoom or local trainings to help other churches, and nonprofits understand how trauma and poverty mindset and addiction affect the people that they serve so that you can serve more effectively if people are interested in going to becharitywise.com.

I’ve written a short little book called The Accidental Social Worker that helps you get a feel for the why behind some of these things, why poverty mindset is an issue, and why trauma is affecting [hysically. Many times we just assume that, okay, well you’re not in trauma anymore. I’ve rescued you out of that. I’ve got you a safe bed to sleep in. I’ve got new food. You know, that should be enough. But the trauma carries with them because the trauma is not actually the event that happened. It’s the emotions associated with the event that happened, and that can carry through really for a lifetime until these women are able to find healing.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s huge. A lot of overlays between what you are talking about and foster care. You know, this sense of like, okay, so we’ve removed this child from the home where there was addiction and poverty, neglect, and now we’ve put them in the suburbs with this. Nice family and everything’s safe and good, but they’re still responding as though they’re in that abusive, neglected environment. You know that that happens.

Suzanne: Exactly.

Carrie: Quite frequently and a lot of times people, they’re very confused by that. Like, what in the world is going on where? Responding this way? I think that what you’re doing is so important in terms of us being able to effectively minister to people out in the community, like the real world, real life stuff that you’re seeing, and so I appreciate you sharing with us about that.

At the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Suzanne: The one that sparks me is actually what got me out of my first marriage and on this long journey, even though at the time I really didn’t realize it. I was so, I was still in active addiction with my first husband, but I was managing it, You know, he was a musician, which meant he didn’t have to work apparently.

and so I was doing what I could to earn more like I had sold mortgages at this time. I was selling insurance and I had had a really frustrating day and I went to go to my mother-in-law’s to pick up our son, and I was just kind of complaining, you know, these were good little church people as well. And so I was still talking the talk when I was around them, and I just said, You know, it was so frustrating.

I just, I don’t understand why God just won’t bless me. My mother-in-law just very graciously turned around and said, Well, What are you doing that God can bless? And then she just went back to filling my son’s little backpack as we got ready to go home. But in an instant, I was just stripped naked. I was so raw and open and vulnerable.

I finally saw myself through the Lord’s eyes, and that was the day that I had to shift everything. That was November. 2000. And from that point forward, it took several weeks for me to quit smoking. But uh, that was the only thing I was really personally addicted to. But the cigarettes, the alcohol and the drugs just stopped immediately.

My marriage was, was more of a challenge. But by February, my son and I were living independently because I couldn’t stay any longer. The veil had been, And I couldn’t unsee it. And I knew that if I stayed in my first marriage because my first husband was not willing to leave that lifestyle, I knew that I would not be strong enough to stay stable on my own.

It was either with him and clean or without him and clean. And he chose without. And so, that to me is one of the defining conversations of my life. And it was probably 15 seconds long.

Carrie: Yeah. Sometimes all you need is that like kind of one or two sentences and it just sparks something within you.

That was huge, Sounds like a turning point. And change the whole trajectory of your life.

Suzanne: It sure did. Yeah.

Carrie: Wow. And we’ll put links in the show notes to where people can find you and hopefully, some people will kind of take advantage of these trainings for their churches and, and ministry sites.

Suzanne: Yeah, I would love that.

80. Where Are Our Guests Now

Written by Carrie Bock on October 12, 2022. Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 80. Where Are Our Guests Now

Where are our guests now? To mark the Hope for Anxiety and OCD 80th episode, I’m giving you some updates on some of our past guests.

Some of them recorded their own updates and some sent us the update via email to read.

(00:50) Holley Gerth – https://holleygerth.com/
(01:29) Peyton Garland-https://www.ibelieve.com/author/peyton-garland/
(04:02) Dr. Irene Kraegel-https://www.themindfulchristian.com/
(04:56) Steve Hinton-https://kingdomology.org/
(06:51) Dyana Robbins-https://www.dyanarobbins.com/
(07:55) Lindsey Castleman-https://inrelationship.us/lindsey-castleman
(08:27) Aaron Strong-https://inrelationship.us/aron-strong
(09″49) Dr. Katie Aitken-https://www.tranquilmindnaturopath.com/
(10:39) Cat Sharp-https://catsharp.com/
(12:10) Alexa Hulsey and Trey Brackman of Encircle Acupuncture- https://encircleacupuncture.com/
(13:26) Kelly Ehlert-https://www.iamprioritypt.com/
(14:31) Jeff Allen-https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/simple-mental-health/id1555394293
(15:58) Jennifer Harshman-https://www.harshmanservices.com/

(17:27) Podcast Updates

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Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 80. I thought it would be kind of fun to do an update episode where we hear where our guests are. Now, the podcast has been live for almost two years. Some of our guests are doing some new things that you might be interested in. And this also gives me an opportunity to remind you of some of the episodes that you may have missed and wanna go back and listen to.

Some of our guests recorded their own updates to put in the podcast and some sent us the update via email to read. I’ll start off by giving you several author updates. I mean, you always wanna keep up with the authors because of course they have written more book.

Holly Gerth

Holly Gerth brought us episode 19, Thriving as an Introvert in an Extrovert World.

This is truly one of my favorite episodes that we did because I wish I had understood intro introversion 20 years ago, as a young adult. I think it would’ve made just such a huge difference for me in understanding myself and how to navigate the world. Holly has written a devotional book for people, struggling with anxiety called what your mind needs for anxious moments that came out in September. And she’ll also be hosting, Breaking Free from Stress Worry and Anxiety Summit.

Peyton Garland

Peyton Garland told us the story of her O OCD diagnosis and treatment in episode 26. Here’s her update.

Peyton: Hey everybody. It’s Peyton Garland. I had the honor and the pleasure of being on the hope for anxiety and OCD podcast about a year, a year and a half ago. And I just wanted to hop back on here and let you guys know that there has been so much growth in my life. And you know, it probably sounds a little cheesy because hope is in the title of this podcast, but I’ve found lots of hope in the past year.

Since I last chatted with you guys, I have found hope and a little white better known as Zoloft. I am so thrilled that I have finally found a medication that seems to be a true miracle and is working so well for my brain. And also my soul. My husband and I just bought an old 1894 farmhouse in Tennessee on about 13 or 14 acres and, you know, OCD for me as someone who struggles with sensory overload.

I am so to finally seem to get some serenity and some peace and have just the quiet of nature to nurture my mind. And aside of that last time I talked with you guys, I just released not so by myself, my first book, and it was a memoir that dug deep into my, my big battle with OCD, you know, kind of pre-diagnosis.

The day I got the diagnosis and post-diagnosis and how to trudge through difficult seasons. Well, and I’m so honored to let you guys know that I have a second book releasing actually in about a couple of weeks, it’s gonna be called Tired, Hungry, and kind of Faithful, Again, diving into this concept that life is messy. Life is muddy, but it is so beautiful, even in seasons of hunger where you’re thirsting for more, where you feel that your faith and your hope are kind shoved in a glass that’s half. But there’s so much room to fill that cup. And, and it’s a cup that’s mid by God to overflow and yeah, a year later still strugg ling with OCD, but finding so much hope.

And I would love for you to check out my next book. It’s got lots of funny stories. My dogs are in this book as well. Lots of tidbits on my battle with OCD, but I think most of all, it’s just. The story of me discovering that there is true beauty from Ash and that that beauty from Ash is something that’s attainable for you as well.

So again, I’m so excited to be back on here and to tell everyone, Hey, life is full of light and hope amid the mess over in Peyton Garland’s world. And I’m so excited to catch you guys later.

Dr. Irene Kraegel

Carrie: Dr. Irene Kraegal who joined us for episode 16 on his mindfulness for Christians had a new book come out on August 2nd, published by Zondervan.

The book is a Christian mindfulness devotional for teens, also applicable for adults. Each of the 150 devotionals includes a scripture passage, a spiritual reflection and a corresponding mindfulness practice. Written guides for classic mindfulness based stress reduction exercises are included such as a body scan, sitting practice and movement meditations along with instructions for informal mindfulness practices that can be incorporated throughout each day.

The devotional also includes introductory and frequently asked question information about effective integration of mindfulness with the Christian.

Pastor Steve Hinton

Carrie: Pastor and author Steve Hinton joined us on episode 37 to discuss doubt and faith. This has been a popular episode in regards to downloads. So if you missed it, you might wanna catch up on that one.

Steve Hinton: Hello, Carrie let me just first say congratulations on reaching number 80 in your ministry and podcast journey. Wow. Your 100th episode is just around the corner. And Gary, I know that your work is encouraging so many people on my end. Well, I’m actually on an extended social media fast this summer, but I am gonna pick up my blog work again the second in September.

You know, social media fast might be a good idea for many of your listeners because there’s so much stress that we unknowingly allow into our lives. And that can’t be prevented by governing what we bring into our hearts and minds from the world around us. But I am planning to get back to the blog in September and I will do this.

I will send a free copy of the confessions book to the first person in your audience who leaves a comment or question in the blog post. When I kick back into it in September the kingdom.com blog post, in addition to my preaching role with a local church on the north side of Houston, I am working with a ministry designed to help foster soul care for pastors, which really is a vital need in our day and age.

I want you to know that pastors need encouragement as well, but again, you have done a wonderful job and, and I’ve been inspired by your podcast and my preparations to launch a future podcast, myself, keep going and as the British say, good show. Thank you, Carrie for all your work.

Carrie: Now we have a few counselor updates for you.

Dyana Robbins

Dyana Robbins: Hi, Carrie and Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast guests. I am Diana Robbins and I was a guest on the podcast talking about my experience, parenting special needs, and children who struggle with anxiety. Since that podcast aired. I have moved back to the United States from Singapore and I’m working as a licensed professional counselor and group and private practice in Texas,

My specialty areas are trauma and grief recovery. I am also developing a program entitled building resilience and parents of exceptional children. For my doctoral dissertation. This program will provide information, support and counseling interventions to help parents thrive at every stage of parenting special needs children.

This month, I have also been a presenter at the trauma and mental health conference where Christian leaders from many fields provide guidance in helping those affected by trauma. You can learn more about my work and contact me through my website dianarobbins.com. That’s D Y A N A R O B B I N s.com.

Thank you, Carrie, for the opportunity to connect with your important work and with all of your listeners. God bless you all.

Lindsey Castlemen

Carrie: You may remember Lindsey Castleman from episode 22 welcoming parts. We don’t like where she introduced us to ifs therapy and told us a sweet story of hope about adopting her son.

Lindsey would like everyone to know that she is doing well. She’s currently the director at the Counseling Center at Fellowship. She supervises marriage and family therapist and has a group practice. She says she’s very proud of the team that she gets to work with and is thankful for all of the opportunities that God has brought her way.

Aron Strong

Lindsey introduced me to Aron Strong of Pathways Counseling in Murphysboro, Tennessee, who brought us episode 29 on God, Feelings and Theology. This was a great episode where we discussed how God has feelings and created us in his image to have feelings as well. Pathways Counseling in Murphysboro has grown adding three additional full-time therapists for a total of nine therapists and graduate interns.

They’re also beginning the process of launching a new location in Mount Juliet, Tennessee. Lindsay and Aron both have an organization called In Relationship and they would like you to know that they have, in addition to their marriage intensives, In Relationship has also created a day and a-half marriage workshop for churches and organizations called Being With. They also have online courses for therapists and Christian counselor member groups. In Relationship has its own podcast.

And they’re excited to announce that they’ve been working with Bridgestone on writing a series of four trainings on empathy and relational engagement to help create work environments in their Firestone stores that employees won’t want to leave. So that’s very exciting for them. Now I’m going to share some updates from organizations and individuals who support people with anxiety in some way.

Dr. Katie Aitken

Carrie: In episode 45, Dr. Katie Aiken joined us for improving nutrition to help anxiety.

Dr, Katie: Hi, Carrie, and the Hope for Anxiety and OCD community. Congratulations on 80 episodes. I’m sure these conversations have helped so many Christians with anxiety and OCD find more connections. Since we’ve spoken, I’ve released the audiobook version of my book, Create, Calm, The Professionals Guide to Overcoming Anxiety from the inside Out. it’s on Audible.

I know how much you love listening to practical guidance on managing anxiety at home. And this resource has all my best tips. The section on connection, where I share how my faith cultivated my self worth might be something that you would enjoy. It’s been great to connect with you, Carrie. Best wishes for your next 80 episodes

Cat Sharp

Carrie: On episode 46, cat sharp brought us Combating Emotional Eating with scripture.

Cat: What an honor, it is to be a part of this special episode. Carrie, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to update you and your listeners on how the Lord is working in my life. Over the last few years, my business has been primarily focused on helping Christian women overcome the traps of emotional eating and binging.

But recently the Lord has been calling me to teach more about what discipleship means and what it looks like in different areas of our lives. So I’ve been partnering with other Christian teachers to create the everyday disciple virtual summit together. We’re tackling topics of parenthood, forgiveness, finances, work, and, and so many more.

And we’re taking a look at what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in our everyday normal lives. The summit and working with these teachers has been such a blessing for me personally. And of course, as our heavenly father does, he has been challenging me in some new ways. So I’m really excited to share the summit with you and your listeners.

If you would like to learn more, please go to cat sharp.com/summit. The summit is free of course. And if you happen to miss this one, don’t worry. We’re gonna be doing another one. I just don’t have the dates for that yet. Again, thank you, Carrie, for allowing me to be a part of your amazing podcast in the way that you serve others.

Alexa Hulsey and Trey Brackman of Encircle Acupuncture

Carrie: We covered the topic of acupuncture on Episode 23 with Encircle acupuncture. I really wish that they were closer to me. It was near my old office and I miss going to acupuncture. It is so relaxing. Trey and Alexa have an update for us.

Alexa: Hi, this is Alexa Hulsey from Encircle acupuncture.

Trey: And this is Trey Brackman from Encircle acupuncture

Alexa: So Trey, what have you been up to?

Trey: Well, I have surpassed my 10-year mark here at Encircle Acupuncture, continuing to help my wife raise three great kids and continuing to do community acupuncture that I love. How about you? What have you been up to Alexa?

Alexa: Well, I am continuing to see patients here at Encircle. We’ve celebrated our 12 years of treating patients and I have also been blogging. My blog notes from your acupuncturist, which you can find on substack and write about all things related to acupuncture.

Trey: That sounds awesome. It is. And you have recently been on another podcast. I was on Sebastian’s finest hour and we talked all about acupuncture and community acupuncture.

It was really a lot of fun. I would do that again.

Alexa: Awesome. So check out Trey on Sebastian’s finest hour and notes from your acupuncturist on substack. Thanks.

Kelly Ehlert

Carrie: Kelly Ehlert is a pelvic floor physical therapist who joined us on episode 20 to discuss overcoming sexual anxiety and dysfunction for women. She’s also in middle Tennessee.

Kelly would like you to know that she’s collaborating with an acupuncturist and functional medicine provider to help women solve underlying issues for some of their physical symptoms and are offering a collaborative program with the three of them treating the individual. They’re currently calling this the purple duck pack, finding the right provider and creating overall health for mental, physical, and emotional wellbeing on her website.

Kelly has some free resources for returning to work postpartum and free screens for considering when to see a pelvic floor, a physical therapist, to determine if her niche is a good fit for them as someone who just had a baby. I really appreciate all that pelvic floor physical therapy has to offer. In helping women recover their bodies after birth.

Jeff Allen

Carrie: We had a few guests share their personal stories with us, fellow podcaster, Jeff Allen who’s also the host of Simple Mental Health shared with us his story about discovering he had anxiety on episode 32.

Jeff: Hi, Carrie, thank you so much for reaching out and giving me an opportunity to speak again on your podcast and congratulations on 80 episodes. That is quite an accomplishment, especially when you are coordinating all the interviews and giving people such valuable content.

Thanks for all that you do. I just wanted to update you and tell you a little bit about what’s going on with. I recently found out that it’s not just an anxiety disorder, but I have been diagnosed with something called cyclothymia, which is basically a really mild form of bipolar. Been treating it with medication and goodness. I can’t tell you what a difference that has made in my life.

I’m blessed to have found a psychiatrist that has worked with me so well. And given me the opportunities to treat what’s going on with me also, I have been promoted at my job recently. I’m the online site lead for the gathering, which is a church in St. Louis, Missouri recently wrapped up the third season of my podcast, Simple Mental Health. If anybody wants to check it. Simple mental health on all the podcast platforms. Check it out. Thank you so much for all that you do, Carrie. I can’t wait to continue to listen and ride along with you as you continue.

Jennifer Harshman

Carrie: This podcast journey. Have a great one last but not least.

We have an update from Jennifer Harshman who talked to us about her abuse story. Why did God Allow me to go Through That on episode 47.

Jennifer: In the time since I shared with you part of my journey, I achieved a lifelong dream of having a swimming pool.

I started a TikTok account in late June and all along. I’ve been busy serving others who wanna make a difference. You can hear all about all of the ways. If you go to harshmanservices.com, sign up for any of the free goodies you want while you’re there. There are two things that I’m doing right now that are the most exciting one is your book bakery, making it easy to write a book, which is a book I wrote, it’s coming out September 1st. And it goes with a program that I’ve been running for a few years, where I walk you through the process of writing a helpful nonfiction book. All you need is the right recipe, and you can do this. The other is editor’s school, where I teach you how to become a freelance editor and build a solid income.

I’ve been helping people since 1992, and I love helping people make dreams come true. You deserve it.

Carrie: Jennifer, congratulations on the pool. That is a great life goal. And who knows? Maybe I might get around to writing my book someday. It’s truly been a blessing and a privilege to interview all of these guests and provide this valuable information for you.

Podcast Updates

Carrie: Since I have updated you on our former guest, I also wanted to update you on what is going on with my counseling practice, By the Well Counseling. I have made the decision to keep my business online for the time being while my daughter is young. However, I have. Insured office space for intensives to focus on doing those on Fridays, I was trained in the flash technique for treating trauma this year.

I also have an upcoming training on something called Blast and in November. I’ll receive additional training for working with OCD via EMDR. I’m excited about just continuing to learn and continuing to grow as a professional each and every year, I continue to be amazed and blown away at how many people are finding the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast.

I have been on several other podcasts to promote this one, which is a great way for people to find out about the show. Of course we also have our social media marketing that we work on just putting up posts on Instagram and Facebook for people who are following us there. According to Google, our website is showing up more and more in Google searches.
So that’s really exciting to me not because I want to have a podcast following. I don’t really care about that. I am excited because it means that more and more people are accessing just messages of hope and knowing that there’s a variety of treatment options available for them. And then if one doesn’t work that they don’t have to be pigeonholed into that treatment.

They can seek other treatments outside of that. That’s one thing I’m super passionate about especially for people who are struggling with OCD and have been told, there’s only one treatment for them. I have many hopes and dreams for the podcast that I thought I would go ahead and share with you. It feels actually like a little bit vulnerable to do this because I don’t know if any of these things are going to actually come true or not.

My big girl dream is to start a nonprofit organization that helps people get the mental health treatment that they need by matching them with an appropriate provider, making sure that financial barriers are removed if they’re not able to afford counseling or afford their copay. I know that there are a lot of great resources, great counselors out there.

And unfortunately seems like finances often get in the way of people getting the very specified. Specific help that they need, because there are so many different types of therapies and ways that therapists practice. It’s hard for people to find what it is that they actually need. So that’s my big girl dream that we’re miles and miles away from, and I don’t know if it will ever come true, but I just said it out loud to you.

Another passion of mine related to the podcast is I would love to get some self-help materials out into the hands of specifically Christians who are looking for help with anxiety and OCD. This could be a great precursor to people coming to counseling, or as a supplement for people who are already in counseling. I’m not exactly sure for me, if this looks like an online course, a workbook, audio, relaxation, or maybe a combination of all of things. I’m not really sure, but it’s something that I hope to be, have time and be able to take some time to work on between now and the end of the year. Doing every other week episodes has really been super helpful and much less stressful in this season of life.

So thank you for all of those of you who have kind of like held on with us this year, in that transition of going from weekly episodes to every other week episodes. Since there are so many new people finding this show, I think it’s actually a good thing in both ways because many people don’t listen every week or, you know, don’t have opportunity to do so. I absolutely love hearing from our listeners and I would love any support communication. If you want to be involved in a beta launch of a course or a workbook, definitely reach out to me via our website. Hope for anxiety and ocd.com. And I’ll kind of put all of those emails together.

I’m always writing about things like this first to our email audience. Anyway, if you’re not on our newsletter, be a good time to get on there and just keep up to date. If you’re interested in any of the self-help stuff, mostly I just let you know what’s going on with the podcast and things that I’m offering. I am going to keep on to the best of my ability, continuing to help Christians who are struggling with anxiety and OCD.

I’d like to ask If you would pray and consider supporting our podcast, you can do that via Patreon through monthly subscription, or one-time gifts can be sent through the website, Buy me a Coffee.

Those links will be in our show notes. There are a variety of expenses that go into producing a podcast, such as, you know, website hosting, editing. And I just really appreciate if you would consider supporting this because as I really view this as my ministry to reach people all over the world who are Christian and struggling, not everybody has access to counseling services where they’re at, unfortunately. People just need this positive support, hope and encouragement sometimes to keep going.

Thank you all for listening to the podcast today. I appreciate each and every one of you who take the time to tune in.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

81. On Becoming Parents: Year Two of Marriage with Steve and Carrie Bock

Written by Carrie Bock on September 30, 2022. Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 81. On Becoming Parents: Year Two of Marriage with Steve and Carrie Bock

Steve and I wanted to share some personal updates with you as we reached another milestone in our marriage.

How becoming parents changed us and affected our marriage
Our child-care setup
Staying positive while battling a rare chronic condition
Relying on faith and finding blessings amidst life’s challenges

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 81. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and I am here with my husband, Steve Bock. Say hello.

Steve: Hello, this is actually our second-anniversary episode. We came on episode 10 to talk about dating. That was right before we got married. We sat on the floor in the closet. Now the recording set-up is a little bit better but still in the closet, we are still in the closet. That’s a dream for the next house is we have a place to put the podcast studio. But until then, here we are.

A Long-Awaited Diagnosis

And we also did episode 50, which was on our first year of marriage. You talking about we had just gotten back from Vanderbilt, discussing, trying to figure out what was going on with your eyes and all of that. All of the tests that they did on you six hours and really didn’t find the results. Now we’re here. We’re gonna be married for two years. Yes. Yeah. And this will come right out shortly after our anniversary. So you finally got a diagnosis as of last week?

Steve: That’s correct. Finally. Yeah. It took a year and a half. I think something like that. After several visits to several places, long story short, we got a diagnosis. Knew that something was wrong, but did not know what, and a diagnosis is good in one sense, because you now know what you’re fighting against and then a little scary in another sense because you know what you’re fighting against.

So yeah. But yes, we got a diagnosis, which is, let’s see, I’ve been practicing on this one, cuz it’s a long, long name. First time I heard it, I went do what and I had to look it up, but the abbreviated version of it would be SCA, which is Spinocerebellar ataxia

Carrie: Good job.

Steve: And for the record, that is the first time I’ve said that correctly without having to look at it first. But yes, I’ve been working on that. I don’t know why that’s so difficult to say, but it is. Yes,

Carrie: Yes it is. You had been referred to a neurologist and then specialty neurologist back up at Vanderbilt and they were the ones to figure out that this actually wasn’t an eye issue. This was a neurological issue affecting your cerebellum. And part of that was you started to have balance issues that got worse progressively. Right. And that was like one indicator that we knew. “Wait a minute, what else is going on here?”

Steve: And the eye issue was secondary.

Carrie: Yeah. And this is a genetic condition that we have no idea about.

Steve: There’s I think three ways that you can get it, but we think that it’s genetic because the other two options, and I can’t even remember what they are off the top of my head, but they don’t match up. Exactly. So it could be one of those, but I don’t think so. Mm-hmm yes. It’s genetic. I don’t know where to look. The family tree was. I don’t know where to go with that because it only goes back so far for me. I can tell you who’s who to a certain point, but I don’t know their health situation at all.

Carrie: And as far as we know, none of them had this.

Steve: No. We had some other things going on. Mm. Yeah. Lou Gehrig’s and Alzheimer’s, but not this.

Carrie: Recognizing that this is a chronic condition, something that they can treat symptoms for, but there is no cure for right. What was it like to get that news?

Steve: Somewhat shocking, somewhat not. Initially, we thought when we just thought it was the eyes we thought it was, if I’m saying this right Leber’s disease because I also had the symptoms for that.

Some but that, I don’t think there’s a cure for that either. And so with thinking about that for some time, when they told me that again, we kind of, weren’t sure about that one and that was kind of a, eh, maybe not, but it mentally prepared me for the concept of having something that’s not curable. Mm-hmm and just because it’s not curable.

That doesn’t mean that I’m going to die tomorrow. There’s no guarantee of how long anyone lives for that matter, but that’s true. Very true. Also when this type of ataxia, there are 40 plus variance of it. So some of those start at childhood, some of those start later in life. Some people live to be somewhat older. There’s no way to know. And until we get further along, we don’t have enough to go on to know exactly which one that I would.

Carrie: Yeah, I think that’s the hardest part about it for me is that there are so many unknowns. They really can’t tell us anything about how this course is going to go. We’ve even heard, you know, Hey, you could plateau and not decline.

Right? We’ve heard some people decline more rapidly than others and one hopeful. That was made. Was that because it has taken you so long to show these level of symptoms that most likely your decline would be slow? Sure. In a sense, the past is a predictor of the future. That does give us some hope.

It’s hard for me not knowing if our daughter has inherited this. Right. And whether or not she will be affected by it later in life. They won’t test her because they want that to be. Her decision when she turns 18. So as long as she doesn’t show any symptoms prior to she won’t be tested, unless she decides to be through genetic counseling and so forth, that is a hard piece because when we were looking at, you know, is this disease or not Li’s disease actually has a very much quicker onset than the symptoms that you were experiencing. People tend to be legally blind pretty quickly with that, right?

Steve: That only runs through your mother’s side. So in that case, and it affects mostly, I think all males, so comes from your mother affects the males that made me feel a little better for her. Now I do the math in my head and I think of how many family members I have.

And I think, well, I’m not good at stating the odds on any given thing, but I would have to think that the odds are a little better for her only in the sense that none of my family has shown anything like this. so that would tell me maybe it’s skipped so many generations. I don’t know, but that gives me some hope.

It’s a tricky one for sure. And it’s scary. Yeah. In a lot of ways, honestly. Am I scared? No, I don’t know that I am trying to deal with it. That’s where the focus is. What measures do you take for balance? And then we’ve worked on that and that’s kind of where my focus.

Carrie: Yeah. And I just appreciate it, I think that you have had a sense of humor about the whole thing. Tell them what you asked me today,

Steve: Which one? Naming the cane?

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: Well, I thought of a couple of names. I think the first one that I asked you was what if we named it able. Because, you know, Cain and Abel, if you know your Bible, if you don’t, well, you’re gonna have to look that up and find it and learn it.

That’s a good story, but yes, I wanted to name it Abel. And then the second one, I think that we may have chosen was Walkie or the assistant but that just, I don’t know. I can’t imagine being in a restaurant, losing the cane and going where’s the assistant , you know, that just, I don’t know that that’s gonna work out well. Although, I don’t know that where’s walkie is gonna be any better. They’ll be looking for a dog or something. But anyway, we thought about, you know, submitting it to the Wally show to see if they would name the cane, but what would they name it? Yeah. If you have any good names for the cane, you can write into the show and that’s a Christian radio show.

Carrie: Yes,

Steve: Yeah. Where they try to name it for those who aren’t familiar with that

Parenting and the Joy of a New Baby

Carrie: We mainly wanted to update people on that, but then also shift gears and talk about our second year of marriage had a lot of joys to it and had some sorrows, but also our greatest joy of course, was having our daughter who is now sleeping in the crib. We had to wait till she fell asleep.

Steve: Yes. The FOMO is real. Is that a phrase? It ought to. Yes, I think so. Yeah. She definitely has a fear of missing out

Carrie: And she definitely feels like has been teething forever. Yes. I did not realize how much of a labor-intensive process it was to get teeth in your mouth before having a child.

What has it been like for you becoming a parent? How has that affected you and changed you?

Steve: Oh, goodness. I have always been a person who likes routine and a person who has had some structure. I get up early in the morning. I brush my teeth. I do certain things in order, I get my breakfast, get my coffee, give everything in order.

And everyone that knows me, knows that well, have a baby goodbye routine. Pretty much. Yeah. And the thing you have to do with a baby is what form a routine. So it’s difficult, but you know, I learned to work with the. And be prepared for any interruption because it, it happens constantly. When I was trying to make my routine work, I was constantly annoyed with the idea that I couldn’t get anything done.

And then we got some patterns going and I learned routines and what worked with her now I can actually get things done, but having the baby definitely changed my world completely. And honestly for the better, definitely. I wouldn’t trade her for anything in the world. She is just absolutely wonderful. Always happy, always smiling and sticks her tongue out at me a lot, which is just kind of funny. yeah. So it’s definitely changed me. It’s been a good experience, but getting out even to do something is like mowing the grass. If she’s fussy and having a bad day. I may have to put that off a little longer because you have things to do too.

We both have to share that. And so you just learn, you know, if your mowing day is always it on this day at this time. Well, if you have a child, you can kiss that goodbye, but it’s been good.

Carrie: I would say that if you do it right, it helps you realize how much you have to give and how much you have to sacrifice what you want for the sake of your child.

And it’s helped me really learn to let go of some control. I think that that’s something that I still struggle with, helped me learn to go with the flow a lot more and just kind of take things as they come. There were definitely some early days that were really, really hard. She was amazing for about the first three weeks.

And then she started cluster feeding. I was exhausted. She had gas and probably about that week three through, I don’t know, week seven or week 10, it was just, I thought, how in the world am I ever gonna be able to go back to work? I took three months off. And fortunately, right around the time I went back to work, she started sleeping more through the night. So that was been a blessing thing.

Steve: And she is a great child. Like all children, you know, she has her moments and it’s nice now that she’s sleeping through the. It was difficult when she wasn’t. And I would say when she doesn’t get her naps throughout the day. Oh my goodness. That’s a difficulty for starters. I miss my nap when she doesn’t.

Transitioning to Stay-at-Home Parenthood

Carrie: We have a unique situation childcare-wise too, because I stayed home for three months with her, for maternity leave, gave my clients kind of alternative people to see if they needed to check in with somebody or see someone for that time period. And then as. We were in that process of looking at daycares.

And I had looked at daycares when I was pregnant, put myself on several waiting lists. Middle Tennessee is just exploding. Booming places are short staffed, you know, right now. And it was hard to. Find a daycare that was a quality place that had an opening for an infant because, you know, the ratios are so much lower too for that age group, far as they can only have four infants per one adult.

And at some point very early in her life, I’d say probably within the first month, I just looked at you one day and, and we were both sitting there and I just said, you know, will you pray about staying at home with her? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you remember that?

Steve: I do. And you know, my first thought was, I just don’t see myself as a stay-at-home dad.

I’ve always been, go, go, go, gotta work. Like if you’re only working one job, something’s wrong with you? No, I do not think that any longer, but I used to bit of a workaholic. And so for you to ask me that I thought, wait a minute. So I’ll be home with the baby. Not that, that isn’t a lot of work. It is, but being stuck in the house just didn’t seem like me.

Yeah. And then I decided to do it because of health situations and financially it made sense. Mm-hmm and also I got to thinking, you know, we can raise this child with the values that we have and we want, so after I got to thinking about it, it was kind of a no brain. Why wouldn’t I do this? I thought about how many children grow up without a dad?

Yeah. Or dad’s just too busy because he’s working so often. And I thought, you know, I can be that dad that’s there for, so not that I’m trying to be the hero, but I want her to have her best life possible. So it was a no-brainer after that I had to do it. Yeah. And I have no regrets. I wouldn’t change a thing.

Carrie: I think when you’re an older parent, it’s like you have more of the mental and emotional capacity for the child, but less of the physical capacity. Yes. We’re just both like, “Ah, I’m so tired.”

Steve: Yes. There are days I’m like, I am just, I don’t even feel like eating dinner. I just wanna go to bed, but it’s good.

Carrie: Yeah, we really evaluated it and looked at how much working full time was affecting your health. And you were getting more headaches from looking at the computer screen. You were exhausted at the end of the day. And we thought, well, you know, you’re really gonna be working to pay for daycare and. what sense is that we were able to get some health insurance and that was an answer to prayer for sure.

Steve: Definitely

Carrie: That worked out. And then it was like, okay, once that piece was in, you were like, what am I gonna put in my notice? And you were excited about kind of the new venture. Absolutely. It was harder for me going back to work and really trusting that you were gonna have things taken care of?

I think because I had just been so focused on her for so long and then having to switch gears into focusing on my business, rebuilding things, finding out which clients wanted to come back and which didn’t. and I will tell those of you who do not know. So I came back from maternity leave on June 1st.

This summer was probably the slowest summer on record. And summer is typically a slower time of the year for therapists because people are gone on vacation. You know, kids are at home from school, people are busier and it’s sunny outside and they. Go outside to the lake and have a good time. Whereas the winter months, times in October or in February, tend to be a little bit busier than the summertime.

So it was rough in the beginning trying to build a caseload back up. And then I would hear faith crying in the other room and I wanted to like go run and get her, but I couldn’t, That is super super tough for me. It’s easier now because you’ve had some time and I trust you that you’re taking care of it. But in the beginning I felt like this need to like to go run and rescue you and her at the same time.

Navigating Challenges as a Married Couple and Parents

Steve: Sure. It will. And when you are as a guy, I wasn’t used to that. You know, I love babies always have, but getting one to stop crying and knowing the specific cries, which is a language all in itself, but learning that and how to cope.

And if I get annoyed, that affects her. And so changing the routine around and making that work. Oh my goodness. That was a hard thing to do at first. There is a bit of a baby bootcamp to go through, I think, but once you get through it and you know, it, I don’t know if it becomes easier. It is more manageable though. Yeah. I guess it’s easier, but. I’m scared to say that, cuz I’ll wake up tomorrow and it’ll just be crazy or something anyways.

Carrie: Raising a child is a little bit like doing therapy in the sense that as therapists, we go to these conferences and they teach us something. Right. And they’re like, “This is amazing. It works so great with clients. It’s awesome.” You know, you’re just gonna see life transformation and you’re all pumped. Right. And you’re like, okay, I got my three-step process. I know what to do. And then you try it out. First client and it does not work. It like falls flat either. You, you know, you did something wrong or it just didn’t work the way it was supposed to.

And parenting for me has been very much been like that. I have the baby books I read, you know, okay. It says do this, or it says do that, but then really you have to learn your baby and you have to learn like what they respond to what’s best for them. And trust me, it is totally not always gone by the book and.

At different points made me anxious like there was a, I guess I just wanna share this for other moms too. There was a period where she just would not sleep in the bassinet. It was just like, hang it up. She was not gonna do it. And the only place I could get her to sleep was to swing. And I was so felt just this sense of angst and guilt going, but the rules say I’m supposed to lay her on her back and I’m supposed to lay her in the crib and she’s not supposed to sleep in the swing.

And you know what, if I harm her and what if she stops breathing or something, but we did it and you know what she slept. And it was important for her to get her sleep. And it was important for us to get our sleep. So our first trip away from the home with the baby, we took the swing with us.

Steve: Thank goodness we did.

Carrie: Yes. We had a little Memorial day getaway before I went back to work and you became a full-time dad. So yeah,

Steve: We traded places there. I will say the swing worked great. And also, and whoever told me this, I just, I owe you like a thousand hugs or a million dollars or something, but put the baby on the dryer,

Carrie: I think that was somebody at your work that done that.

Steve: Yeah. And yes, it was. And when I first heard, I was like, put the baby on the dryer. That sounds crazy. but then you hit this moment where, okay, this baby, she is screaming at the top of her lungs. I cannot stop her. She’s hyperventilating. I don’t know what to do.

I think I’m hyperventilating. So I pick her up and we go down to the dryer. I think you even said, didn’t you say something about the dryer? Sure. Let’s. We go, we put the baby on the dryer. She stops, she just stares at us and it actually worked. So mom’s out there. If you’ve never tried it or dads do it, it worked.

Carrie: Yeah. Something about, the vibration. Yeah. When you turn it on, they really like it. How do you feel like becoming a parent has affected our marriage?

Steve: I think, honestly, bears with me on this statement, but it will either make you or break you.

Carrie: I would agree with that.

Strengthening Communication and Support

Steve: And for us, I think it’s definitely strengthened us. The problem, I think it is is everyone has a way that they think is right. But as a married couple, you have to work together. And when the baby’s screaming, you don’t have time to figure out. Okay. What do you think? Well, what do you think? No, you gotta calm this baby down. The longer you leave the baby crying, the worse it is.

And so in most cases, I feel like, so we really had to work together and just roll with things and not get angry with one another. And we just had to make it work. And I think that we get to a point where we just know we’re like, oh, the baby’s hungry. We know that. Let’s feed the baby or whatever. Whereas initially, that wasn’t the case.

It was, why is this baby crying? What did we do wrong? And I think some couples could easily say, it’s your fault. You did this, you know, but we figured out a way to make it work

Carrie: or to give each other ideas without getting defensive,

Steve: Yes. Which is so easy to do, especially when you have this little tiny being that is screaming in a way that should not be humanly possible. I do not know how she screams that loudly. The other thing that worked really well. When we had company over, she was like the best. I don’t know how that works. Not that she’s ever that bad, honestly, we’re very blessed, but she rarely cries with company. She’s just even happier. She’s just a social butterfly. And so, yeah, we love company now.

Carrie: I knew that you were gonna be a good dad because you were so supportive. And so open, like during the pregnancy process. And that was really great. You went through the classes with me and,

Steve: Oh, those were so much fun. I remember when you said, oh, we’ve got classes, let’s do them.

And I said, all right, that’s fine. You know? And then I found out that they were gonna be on Sunday, which during Sunday evening that yeah. And I was like, oh, But, you know, you get over. That’s so stupid. I sound like an old man. I can’t miss my nap, but I did. And you know, I learned a ton out of it. I really did.

And we even went to CPR class and we did a couple of things that were just. You know, I like to learn, so it was good. it was good. And you’ve been a great mom for that matter while we’re dishing out compliments here. You’ve been a wonderful mom.

Carrie: Yeah. And there is a doula actually took a couple of pictures while I was in labor. I didn’t realize that she took these pictures, but it’s basically of you like supporting me during the labor process. And I look at those and I’m just like, oh, like it just kind of, you really like makes me. You know, warm and fuzzy inside, because that was a very hard time for me. The pregnancy was actually much tougher than the labor was. But going through labor is not super fun,

Steve: And you know how they show it. I’ve never had a child before. Well, I guess technically I still never had a child, you know, you’ve never birthed a child. Right. I’ve never birthed a child before, but that’s probably a good thing. The way that they show it on TV is not reality clearly.

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: And man, no one gave me a cigar. Not that I’d have smoked it, but no one gave me one of course, whatever, but I wasn’t sitting, waiting in some outside lobby, some. I was in the room with you and there was no break. I remember thinking, well, I think I’ll go get lunch now. And then I looked at you and you’re like, oh no, you won’t

And I was like, no, I won’t. And not that you were rude. I just, I thought things were good and Nope, snack borrow work, or just, well, nevermind, I don’t need anything, but we worked together and that was the first sign that, you know what? You got a parent together. I guess the birth thing you were doing, 99% of the work ladies don’t get like, oh, what’s he think.

But no, you were doing all the work, but it starts there. You know, you, you do what you gotta do. If somebody’s hurting, you gotta be there for ’em, especially if it’s your spouse, And during the labor process, my goodness, I can’t think of it a better time to give support. So we met at work. We had to work together.

Carrie: There used to be this belief that husband shouldn’t be present during labor. I can’t remember why the doctors had some theory on this. And I read in a book that this man actually handcuffed himself to his pregnant wife, smart man. So he could be with her during labor and really changed that process. And how doctors looked at it now.

Steve: Absolutely

Carrie: Most fathers are in the delivery room that are involved anyway. We’ve had some other stressful experiences this year. And I would say that those aren’t necessarily things that were ready to talk about or appropriate to talk about, but it seemed like when it rained, it poured.

Steve: Absolutely. It’s been a challenging year, but at the same time in those challenges, there’s always growth. Yeah. You know, you really, when you’re up against something, you find out who you are, you find out that you cannot handle all of this by yourself. And I’m very thankful that we have one another, you know, to lean on because without church and God, and, and being married and, and those things and having that support system that we have, man, I don’t know how we’d have made it through some of this,

Carrie: Right. Just people that have lifted us up in prayer and talked to us and checked in on. You know, even people that know about your health and waiting for a diagnosis, just being able to tell those people like, okay, well, here we are. This is where, where we’re at and what we’re facing. And this is what we’re looking at in the future.

I think you and I have had to lean on each other a lot. For venting about various issues and processing different things as they’ve come up in a way that spouses should do. But I don’t think everybody does. Right. I don’t think everybody opens themselves up fully vulnerably to their spouse to process through what they’re thinking and feeling about the situations in their life that happen to them.

Learning and Growing Together

Steve: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve learned too that it’s impossible for me to have all the answers mm-hmm so I don’t try to have answers for everything. And usually, the answer to the problem is listen. And so I’ve had to really work hard. Not that I was a terrible listener. But I’ve had to work really hard at listening, which I’m still working on.

That takes time. That doesn’t happen overnight. But a lot of the things that we’ve dealt with have required listening. Yeah. Because there’s no easy answer. Mm-hmm you just, sometimes you have to get it out of your system and vent. And if I’m venting, you listen. And if you’re venting, I listen. That’s just the way that it is.

But listening is, is a big deal, you know, that’s, that’s just, I, I always hear it and I always believe it. I hear people say all the time, you know, God gave you one mouth in two years, so you probably should listen twice as much. Right. It’s true.

Very true. Yeah. And I think those things have grown us closer to God in prayer and closer to each other as we’ve kind of weaned on each other, through these processes. And having our daughter there has been helpful too, because. When you’re down or something’s just difficult. And you’ve got this baby that is just giggling and smiling and sticking her tongue out at you, you cannot be mad. You cannot be upset with life. I really believe our daughter has this gift and that is to be an encourager. She doesn’t even know words yet, but we just kind of pass her around for the hugs and smiles and it just really lightens the mood. It changes the focal point from your problem to just this happy little girl that just wants nothing more than to make you happy. Just been a blessing.

Finding Blessings in the Midst of Challenges

Carrie: I think about that too. And just that Faith was conceived and born really during some dark times and some emotional struggles, but. She’s a reminder of the goodness of God and of the faithfulness of God. You know, when people ask, like, why did you name your daughter faith? It’s like, well, you know, it took a lot of faith for us to get to this point to be alone and then to be older and find each other, not know if we could have a child or not and have her, I really believe that she was born for a purpose in, in God’s plan. And had we received this diagnosis before we got pregnant? We probably would’ve said, you know, I, I don’t think we should do this. I don’t think we should go through with this. So she showed up at just the right time and part of my process right now.

Just trusting God one day at a time to be able to give me the strength to make it through the day, but also to know that he’s in control, that he loves us and that he’s gonna take care of us, regardless of what happens that he’s gonna provide for our needs. That hopefully next time, you know, when we record this in a couple of years, that we’ll be in one storey house.

Just believing that very excited for that day. Yeah. yeah, that she won’t have to traverse the stairs that are in her home and yeah, just knowing that God is good and he loves us. And even in the dark times that he’s still here, he’s still present he’s for us. And that keeps us going just one day at a time, one step at a time.

Embracing the Present and Looking to the Future

I think for me too, living in the moment, learning so much about mindfulness, applying that during my pregnancy, just trying to get through the back pain that I was dealing with at the time it’s allowed me to manage these situations much better because I realized I can only deal with what we have today.

So today was about getting your cane in the mail and you starting to learn how to use it. Today wasn’t the day to worry about, are you gonna end up in a wheelchair because we’re not there? No, and we hope to not be there for sure. but you know, when those thoughts enter my mind, it’s like, okay, you know, pause right now.

We’re thankful every day that Steve can walk, we’re thankful for every day that you get to see your daughter grow up. There was a time period, you know, where it’s like praying that God would preserve your sight. That you’d be able to see her even be born. We just didn’t know. Right. There was so much, we didn’t know at the time that God has allowed you to do that. And learning about this diagnosis has just really reinforced the decision to have you be a stay-at-home dad because now you’re getting more quality time with her. Right. And I love being able to work from home and online and kind of see her during lunch and in between clients.

I don’t have a commute. It’s just been a huge blessing for our family to be able to. Involved in her life. And there’s so much, I think that could have derailed this podcast from continuing, but we’re still here, you know, it’s, it’s still here two years later. That’s right. And after just everything that we’ve gone through, I’m so thankful for that.

I’m thankful for the people that find us that tune. And you know, are willing to listen to me, ramble and fumble through interviewing people. And just have, you know, an amazing teammate as well, that works behind the scenes with me to do our editing, social media and those types of things.

Steve: We are so blessed.

I hope that as a listener, you don’t hear this or someone doesn’t hear this and think my gosh, they got some problems. No, I, I hope you see that we are. That. Yes. There’s something I’ve been diagnosed with, but God’s still blessing me and I was thinking I can’t help, but think of our dear friend who you just had on recently, I don’t remember what the 76 is that it, I can’t remember, but..

Carrie: Don’t remember the number was John Bennett.

Steve: Yes. And we actually spoke with him recently. He and his lovely wife. What an encouragement. He says with what he has, that God’s blessed him. He wouldn’t trade, change it for anything. And when I first heard that, I was like, “Are you crazy? No one wishes cancer on themselves.” But he has such a good attitude about it.

And I thought, my gosh, if I can just have that attitude and see the blessings and not the bad and see that I have a wonderful wife who supports me and I have a beautiful daughter and we just have a good support system. We go to church here. We just love what we have and God has blessed us dearly.

It hasn’t always been. But it’s just better and better every day. So there’s a purpose in it. And that’s the part that I have to see.

Carrie: Yes. And if anybody happens to know anybody with SCA, because it’s just so rare and we’ve looked into some support groups, but we have yet to really meet anybody that’s dealt with that.

So if you wanna drop us a line at the podcast we’d love to hear from me too and learn about your story. I think when we try to explain it to other people, they’re just like what? I’ve never heard of that. And we’re like, well, we hadn’t heard of it either. So right. We’re in the same boat with you.

Steve: And you know, the other thing is I thought when I heard of this, what’s the first thing you do. You try to find somebody famous that has it that way you can say, “well, you know, so, and so has this, you know, the actor or the singer.” There’s no one that’s famous that has this. And so I don’t know, maybe famous people, if you’re famous, you don’t get it.

Maybe that’s the key to get rid of it. I don’t know. But, there are no famous people that have it, that I’m aware of and I’ve looked and I’ve gone on to different groups. And that’s the key thing I hear is who’s famous that has it. And everyone says no one.

Carrie: If we were to ask you a closing question, this has kind of been a story of hope so far. So we won’t ask you the story of hope question, but what would you tell your younger self? Like if we could fast forward, back to our interview a year ago, when we were at first year of marriage, six hours of appointment, no answer. What would you tell yourself?

Steve: Just be patient and know that God’s in control that no matter the outcome he’s in control because there was definitely a time where even just right until I found out what this diagnosis is that I thought this is useless.

We’re spending time, money, effort, resources, whatever to find out an answer that I don’t, I’m not convinced we’re ever gonna find out. And when you have a rare disease that makes it more difficult to diagnose it. Yeah. That might be the reason it took so long. And, and when you’re going to the specialist, the people that should know, and they can’t find out and you keep, you get referred to these places and you get all these tests and they just aren’t getting answers.

You feel like a pin cushion after a while or at least I was getting, I don’t know if I was discouraged just to the point where, okay, enough’s enough. I don’t think we’re gonna find the answer.

Carrie: You actually looked at me and told me that probably about a month before your neurology specialty neurology appointment, you said, I don’t think they’re gonna find it.

Steve: I didn’t, I really didn’t. And you know, they did, and that changes me because now. As I said earlier, I know what I’m fighting against. So I think if you’re in a situation where you don’t think you’re gonna get the answers and you’re not getting the answers, you know what be patient, because God knows the answers.

God knows what you need. Yeah. And the anxiety from it is just not worth it. The amount fret that you have, if that’s a way to say that the worry that you have from it is probably not worth it.

Carrie: I would encourage people not to give up hope and to keep seeking the person that has the answers that you need, or the knowledge base that you need in order to have a diagnosis or to get better.

I know from clients that I’ve talked to in the past who were misdiagnosed, or, you know, maybe they had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but they really had PTSD. And you explained to. You’re telling me about all these traumatic things that you’ve been through. Here are some of the symptoms of PTSD.

This is actually something that’s highly treatable. We can work through this trauma and we can help you get to a better place. That’s so encouraging and so hopeful for them or for somebody who is dealing with obsessions, that makes them feel like, well, I must be crazy or I must be horrible. But then when they learn, they have O C D there’s this.

That comes to it as well. Like, oh, this is a condition. It has a treatment, you know, I can get better. I may be waxing and waning throughout my life, but I can be in a better place than I am right now. I know that we had people tell us, even like, Hey, if you have to, you know, go to the Mayo clinic, then go to the Mayo clinic.

Like don’t give up on yourself. Find the answers. Thankfully, we just had to get to the correct specialists at Vanderbilt. Yeah. That we needed to see who was just incredibly nice and compassionate were appreciative of him.

Steve: I would say too. And you said this to me before that it would be difficult if I were still single. I don’t know how I would’ve handled this. It would’ve been very, very difficult. And I would say if you are single or in a situation where you feel like you’re alone with something, don’t do it alone, get a prayer partner. You know, you can call your church. If you have one and say, “Hey, would you pray for me?”

Do not do it alone because that’s the worst thing you could do. I support the people who have prayed for me, the people who have stood beside me, Carrie, who’s been right there the whole time. That means so much. That’s what gets you through your day sometimes when you really want to give up, you’re like, I’m done with this.

This is so terrible. And then they’re right there, cheering you on. You can do this and it just, makes a world of difference. So don’t do it alone.

Carrie: Yeah, of course, as always. It was great to have you back on the podcast. Thank you everyone for tuning in and listening to us ramble about our second year of marriage.

Steve: Yeah, thanks for having me, by the way, I enjoy this.

Carrie: We had no script for this. We just kind of rolled with it off the cuff, which is not something either one of us normally does. We normally have a list of questions.

Steve: A list. Yes, I have no notes whatsoever. That’s rare.

Carrie: Yes, but I think it turned out the way it was supposed to went to encourage everyone to subscribe to our newsletter.

They can do that by going on the hope for anxiety and ocd.com website, there’s a free relaxation download for you there. And I’m gonna be working on some other free downloads for people, maybe PDFs or things like that. So when I have those. I will let y’all know about those as well. We have a goal to really double our email subscribers by the end of the year, to get to about 150.

So if you can help us with that goal, we would so appreciate it. And we’ll be giving away. T-shirts exclusively to our email subscribers. We never heard back from our last winner. Lisa. We’re gonna try to reach out to you one more time, but then I don’t know. We may have to give your t-shirt away to somebody else.

Don’t miss out on your free t-shirt

Steve: you know, Lisa, please call her and tell her

Lisa claim your t-shirt please claim your t-shirt. You don’t wanna miss that.

Carrie: You know, I really thought maybe she thought it was a scam. When I emailed

her.

Steve: She may have,

Carrie: this is not a scam. You really get a t-shirt. Anyway, thank you so much for listening.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

79. Personal Story of Anxiety with Dr. Sherri Yoder

Written by Carrie Bock on September 28, 2022. Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 79. Personal Story of Anxiety with Dr. Sherri Yoder

Today on the show, I’m joined by Dr. Sherri Yoder, a former clinical psychologist and the founder and executive director of Thriving Thoughts Global. Dr. Sheri talks about her personal story of anxiety and how it led her to her work now in her non-profit organization.

Dr. Yoder’s story of struggling with anxiety
Strategies she used to work through her own anxiety
How she got involved in mental health prevention and education
More about her non-profit organization, Thriving Thoughts Global

Related Resources:

Thriving Thoughts Global

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 79. Today on the show, we have a little bit of a unique episode. I mean, we’ve done these kinds before, but it’s kind of a combination of personal story and professional, um, inform. So I have Dr. Sherri Yoder, who is a former clinical psychologist and the founder and executive director of Thriving Thoughts Global, which is about mental healthcare prevention.

From Clinician to Patient: My Battle with Anxiety

So I’m really interested in that conversation that we’re gonna have Dr. Sherri.

You wanted to start out by talking about kind of your own personal story of anxiety.

Dr. Sherri: Thank you so much for having me Carrie and giving me the opportunity to share a little bit. I think it’s so important for us to not just normalize anxiety, but normalize how we respond to it.

Thanks for giving me the chance to do that. Years ago when I was practicing as a clinical psychologist. So it’s been almost maybe 10 years now. I had my first, what I would call major episode with anxiety. That was pretty chronic. It was both acute and chronic at the same time. It lasted a long time. It had to do with a lot of things.

It had, my thoughts had to do with some spiritual fears, but also some professional fears. Somewhat related to being an imposter and that sort of thing. But being found out just irrational fear of being found out, what am I gonna be found out about? I keep up with my CE’s. I do the things I do therapy. Like I’m good.

I’m good at my business, you know, all of that, but there were certainly irrational fears that started to develop. And so what happened during that time is it got so bad that the only time that I wasn’t having a spiraling thoughts that would kind of physically take me out at the knees was when I was in therapy when I was doing therapy with other people because I was like, I was zoned in, I was focused on them and it was like a freedom to a degree because I didn’t have to be inside my head.

I could be outside of my head. And so that was really the only relief that I got during that time. And I’d say that that ran about four to five months to the point where I knew it was unsustainable, I knew I had to do something. I had to respond to it differently, or I was gonna have to check myself in somewhere because it was getting that bad.

I say that to say that I was never formally diagnosed. I was a clinical psychologist. I was the one that diagnosed other people. And certainly, I could have met the criteria for a number of different anxiety-related disorders. But what happened during that time is what served as the catalyst for the work that I do now. And it was a deep, intimate understanding of what it’s like to deal with potentially debilitating anxiety. And so what happened is I became a stronger clinician in that regard, but I became a more compassionate human as well. So I’m thankful for that experience. And since then that set me on the path to realize that everything that I go through, no matter how scary or so badly I wanna avoid it or painful, it is. There is a way to use that. Not just to help other people, but to grow me.

Carrie: That’s good. I’m glad you brought up imposter syndrome because I think that’s a thing that a lot of people who are in professional careers have and it’s something that people think well, okay. I’m really educated.

I’m functional. I mean, I go to work every day. Like, not just that, but like I’m my achiever. And they don’t necessarily always recognize that anxiety within themselves or that thought process that is really fueled by anxiety of I’m never quite good enough. I’ve always gotta kind of do better. There’s always more that I could be doing for myself.

Dr. Sherri: Yeah. And as a clinician, I think, you know, this, Carrie. You have a serious responsibility on your hands, right?

Carrie: Sure.

The Importance of Recognizing Vulnerability and Its Connection to Anxiety

Dr. Sherri: You’re dealing with the personal lives of people. And there is a level of, there’s an onus that comes with that to honor that, to be reverent of that. And I think that led to one of the things that I since learned about anxiety for myself and for other people I’ve now, since I left the field, I do some individual work called thought coaching. So I help people with their thoughts. But what I’ve learned is that there’s two things that happen with anxiety. One is that I had to know when I was most vulnerable.

Carrie: Oh, That’s good. Right.

Dr. Sherri: I had to be aware of that. When I was most vulnerable was when I was alone. And that was particularly problematic for me because I was single and didn’t have any children work was like, “Yay. I’m not alone.” And then when I got out of work, that’s all I was, was alone. And so there’s a tendency there to not want to be alone, but I had to be alone in my vulnerability in order to address it because if I avoided that. I was never gonna get to a place where I could address it. And to be clear, I didn’t do that work alone. I employed the help of some friends and things, but to know where your vulnerability is because if you’re gonna respond to it differently, you have to prepare. Yeah, right. And so my vulnerability was in the alone spaces.

So that’s the first thing that I needed to be aware of that helped me through that. And then the second thing was to understand that all anxiety, I don’t care how irrational it is. I don’t care how out of the blue, the thoughts are. They always stem from some nugget of truth. So going back to this, like, oh, you’re gonna be found out. You’re a fake, you’re a fraud. Like what? No, I’m actually a licensed clinical psychologist. Right. I have my doctorate. There’s nothing for me to be found out about. It related back to me to the negative truth of that onus of that responsibility that you have in that role.

And so I think about parents, mothers that I’ve worked with and they have responsibilities for their children. And very much of some of their thought worlds and the anxiety-related thoughts that they have are related to fears of something happening to their children. Right? Well, that is where that little nugget of truth. I have this responsibility here. So, whether that’s in a job or whatever it is, whatever kind of has your attention, has your focus, that’s also your vulnerability and the source of that kind of nugget of truth for the thoughts to spiral into total opposite of truth thoughts,

Carrie: Right? So it’s like teasing out. What is the actual negative truth, which for you was, I do have some responsibility to care for people. However, the fear piece was you’re gonna really screw somebody up. You’re really gonna mess this up, being able to separate those out and tease that out was helpful for you. It sounds like.

Replacing Anxiety with Truth: The Power of Thought Coaching

Dr. Sherri: Oh my goodness. Yeah, because then I was able to. When I gave myself permission to say, okay, this makes sense, but it doesn’t make sense that it’s gone, like so far to the left of where it was, right. So far from the needle of truth. But it makes sense now that is a source of my worry. And so then I could stop berating myself. “What’s wrong with you? You’re just crazy.” No, no, no, no, no. My mind just took this idea and kind of blew it way out of proportion almost without my permission. And so to be able to kind of step outside and see that is really what my saving grace was, because then what I did, I’ll share with you really quickly, what I did, which I didn’t know then would become my life’s work of learning to take the thoughts that we have in our minds and evaluate them for veracity. Are they real? Or are they lies? That’s what I say, are they truth or are they lies? And if they’re lies, okay, then they’re not serving me. Well, how do I replace that with truth? So what I did during that time, a friend of mine had asked me. He said, “Sherri, I want you to write down for me. I’m a woman of faith. I want you to write down all of God’s promises. And so I did, and I didn’t believe half of them at the time because I mean, there was stuff going on in my mind and so I wrote them all down. And so then what I did is I pulled out the language that I used with myself in those moments of anxiety, of heightened anxiety, the phrases that I said, you’re a fraud you’re gonna be found out. You don’t know what you’re doing, whatever the thoughts were.

I wrote all of those down on one side of the paper. And then on the opposite side of the paper, I wrote down the truths of what I knew to be true. Even if I didn’t. Yeah. Then what I did is every moment when I was having these anxiety thoughts instead of letting it spiral out of control, I immediately opened that book and I scanned down to the one that, the thought that came into my head and I looked to the right of it and I said aloud the corresponding truth and why was that important.

I didn’t know at the time that that was important that I did that, but it was important because I understood and came to realize this about anxiety. And depression or anything like that, something that was so liberating for me to know and something that just enlarged my compassion for people was when you’re in that space and people say “it’s all in your head or whatever. ” Yeah, you’re right. It is. And I can’t get out of there.

Carrie: I’m stuck. I’m trapped. Yeah.

Dr. Sherri: Right. And so what I learned was having a physical, external reminder was what I needed because when I was in that space, I couldn’t think of anything else. I needed something written down outside of my head that I could ground me to a degree because if left to my own thoughts, it was just gonna spiral out of control. Having that external reminder was key to fighting that battle of anxiety and that composition notebook fell apart Carrie. I mean, I opened that thing. I must have opened it every, when I was alone, like every minute because it was nonstop.

Open it, read it, open it, read it and then shut it down. Okay. I’m okay. Nope.

Carrie: You would ike carry it around with you?

Dr. Sherri: Everywhere. And I’ve carried that habit. With me to this day for different, like, I have sticky notes. I have everywhere. I have them in my car. I have them in my wallet, in my kitchen, in my desk, wherever of just different things to remind myself of.

I choose to speak kindly to myself. Different things to remind myself of. And I move them around because our brain habituates to the same thing in the same place. Anyway, besides that it took work, there were times when I thought, “oh my gosh, this isn’t working. It’s not stopping,” but I remained faithful to that work to doing something different.

And what I learned is since then, this is 10 years ago. My tension, my tendency towards anxiety that hasn’t gone away. But what’s changed has been my response to it. And I taught myself, I taught my brain a new habit. It’s possible. It takes a heck of a lot of work. And a lot of perseverance, but to me it’s so worth it. And now it’s a lifelong practice that I know not to believe the first thought that comes into my mind to evaluate it and then decide what to do with it. So that’s kind of led to my work now.

Carrie: That’s great. We had another guest on that talked about having kind of like a “911 note” on her phone. She’s a health coach now, but she was trying to lose weight. And so she had various things on her 911 note. Yes. You know, note that she would just pull up and there were scripture verses and positive affirmations and so forth. And so every time she kind of wanted to slip back into all patterned, she got that out and went through it and I think.

I appreciate what you’re saying about it being work because unfortunately, obviously, like we live in a society of instant gratification and to really do something like essentially what you’re talking about is thought replacement. It does. It takes effort and it takes repetition. You know, anytime we’re trying to learn something new like our brain is literally creating new pathways.

Yes. And that’s not gonna happen just overnight or, oh, well, I tried to do that like one or two times, and I just wasn’t feeling it and I don’t think it’s gonna work for me. That kind of lingo is like, I want people to hear, like, it is hard to work through your anxiety, but you can do it. You can, you can work through some of these things and learn new behaviors and new patterns and new coping skills with life to have like a better outcome.

Did you end up going to therapy for yourself? I’m just curious.

The Lifelong Practice: Working Through Anxiety and Building Resilience

Dr. Sherri: I did not. Well, that depends on how you look at it informally sure because I have a lot of colleagues. I did process this with the number of people. And I did not keep it to myself. I think that’s the other thing that’s so important is, and unfortunate in the realm of mental health, I get it. We have HIPAA laws, we have privacy laws. But I think an unfortunate side effect of that is the propagation that I’m not supposed to have these problems. We kind of hide it in these four walls behind closed doors. I can only talk about this with my therapist, or I’m not even gonna go to therapy because if I go to therapy, then I admit there’s something wrong with me. I think it’s about shedding light on the normalization of our human, emotional experiences and understanding that we all have them to varying degrees, to varying intensities, varying propensities and varying seasons. I don’t claim Carrie to be out of the anxiety woods. Right.

I think that’s the other kind of faulty belief is like, I’m over it, but that’s the trick about anxiety and or depression is it comes back when you least expect it, but there are new ways that you can respond to it. And so I, for me, It’s not believing that I’m never gonna be impacted by it again, instead, it’s believing that I’m gonna be able to not only just cope with it, but to use it to be stronger.

I actually have this little sticky note here. I have to read it to you. It says, “A bird sitting in a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking because his trust is not on the branch but in his own wings,

Carrie: I can get up and fly if this branch starts to crack it’s okay.

Dr. Sherri: That’s right.

Carrie: How did you make this shift from, you know, mental health treatment to getting involved in mental health prevention and starting a non- profit.

Dr. Sherri: A very, very intense story short, which I think was birthed in this season of anxiety that I just described to you. But I started having trouble sleeping at night, quite literally. And I thought, man, I think that people need to know that if they’re having these feelings, there’s nothing wrong with them because I think that’s the other thing that gives.

The feeling more power than it should have is that I’m not supposed to feel this way. Right. And so I said, how can I take this message to people that aren’t gonna go see a shrink? Cause listen, in my line of work, I can tell you how many times I heard people literally say, you don’t go to see a shrink unless you wanna be crazy or right.

That’s what you do. I used to have people walking into my office like this, like hiding their face, cuz they were ashamed of. And so I thought, how can I start a conversation about these common human experiences and emotional experiences and thought experiences that we have to bring a new sense of enlightenment of helping people understand that they have this mental and emotional health t take care of and how they can do that. And so I stopped taking insurance. I said, I’m gonna stop diagnosing, I’m gonna stop treating and I’m gonna start educating people. So I just started speaking for free. Then I kind of made my way through some organizational consulting stuff, cuz those are curated, captive audiences to a degree and speaking at various civic organizations, networking groups, that kind of thing.

And then I did that for about four years and then I ealized mid-pandemic first year of the pandemic in 2020, how do I make this movement? Something bigger than me and how do I make it reach further than what I alone can do? And so then the idea was start a non-profit. I started the nonprofit thriving thoughts, global.

The whole idea is to educate people through conversation and principle and thought strategies and things like that. But to educate women in particular, because I believe they’re the ones who are the influencers that talk to their families, talk to their best friends, talk to their kids, right. So if we can teach women how to do this, then they’re the ones that are gonna have that ripple effect.

How to understand and not be so blown away by the thoughts and feelings that we have, but to use them to their benefit, to use them to their advantage. And so that’s what we’re doing there, and we’re doing that through several different means. We’re creating webinars that we’re offering monthly, we’re creating a new podcast that has like 10 to 15-minute stories of women who have gone through maybe a challenging experience and how they used one of our, what we call thriving thoughts, pillars, to learn how to grow through that, to learn, to respond differently through that, so that it strengthened them mentally and emotionally and relationally as well.

And then starting conversations about just some of the things that in our Western culture. I think our foundational influences in depression and anxiety that started at a very, very young age that have to do with comparison and measuring up and that sort of stuff. So just helping offering and alternative conversation about mental health and teaching people that there’s a way to protect their mental health, to build it and to prevent things like deep experiences of anxiety and depression.

Carrie: I think that’s what you’re talking about is interesting. This concept that everyone has at some point or another, like some type of mental health struggle. And really, if you walk into a counselor’s office, they could slap any kind of diagnosis on you because I mean, if you just read the DSM, you’re like, “oh, I, yeah. I’ve had that symptom” and you’re reading some other symptom. I mean, don’t ever read it because next thing you know, you know, you’re gonna be like, well, I have this

Dr. Sherri: land it’s ike, don’t go to WebMD if you have a headache.

Carrie: That’s interesting. And I think you are right that, I mean, I’m definitely a big proponent of therapy and I’ve had a lot of therapy myself. That’s been super helpful, but I do also recognize there are some people that they’re just not gonna do it. They’re never gonna do that kind of work. And maybe they can be reached a different way. So a lot of education. And what is your podcast gonna be called?

Dr. Sherri: It’s called the Fortified Woman podcast. It’s helping people to understand that it’s possible to look at situations differently. And when you change the way you look at them through your thoughts, your outcome is different. Am I the woman who always expects the worst of a situation? Because if that’s the case, I’m probably gonna experience. There’s all sorts of psychological evidence for this confirmation bias and priming of our cognitions and what we expect and that sort of thing. And so it’s about having these. Let me clarify. Treatment has value and prevention has value and both can coexist and they should. Right now, unfortunately, the predominant narrative around mental health. If you look at, you know, May is mental health awareness month, right? It’s really not mental health awareness month, at least in the way people talk about it. It’s really mental illness awareness month.

Let’s talk about those people who have those challenges. No, no, no, no, no, no. We are all those people. We all have these opportunities to go down a crisis hole. And so let’s start having those conversations. Let’s talk about not how to cope with life, but how to grow through life. And it really is an idea of thriving over surviving.

Carrie: I mean, at some point or another, we’re all gonna hit a difficult challenge in life and you don’t necessarily know what that’s gonna be or when that’s gonna happen. But I think like what you’re saying is you can allow those things to crush and break you, or you can say, okay, how can I work through this and become stronger and become better as a result of that?

Yes. Do you feel like your faith has really impacted you in regards to that. Just, I don’t know, thinking about things in the Bible related to perseverance and going through trials. And did you really look at that stuff when you were going through the heavy anxiety?

Dr. Sherri: I think for me, it was more about God’s design for us. There’s all these promises in the Bible like your promised peace, you’re promised an abundant life. And if we’re promised that, then what are we missing out on if we’re not experiencing that. And a lot of. Really boils down to the way we think. I mean, scripture has a lot of examples with think this, not that right. Think about things above versus things below. And, and when you do that, you can kind of extrapolate and say, oh, this thing below has a purpose.

It can have an eternal purpose or a relational purpose, a discipleship purpose. So, yes, my personal journey has been deeply informed by that, but also deeply informed by my clinical training and expertise and experiences with people that have been so formative that have just allowed me to catch a glimpse of the truth is that we were made in God’s image, every person.

And if we’re made in God’s image, when we have these feelings, there’s nothing wrong with. If you look at the life of Jesus, Jesus had all of these feelings. Well with one exception and that’s anxiety, that’s probably a different spiritual conversation, but there are things we can do. Take every thought captive, right? Evaluate every thought. Is it true? Is it a lie? What am I believing right now? What rabbit hole am I going down right now? And is there another trail for me to follow? So, yeah, my faith has definitely informed my personal growth, but also my professional growth and help giving me insight into what people are facing up here, what women in particular are dealing with in their thought world. It’s been a very deeply humbling and gratifying experience. And I would say that for the thriving thoughts, global movement, it’s certainly faith informed because I’m the founder of it. Mm-hmm but it’s not faith-based. Our desire is to propagate hope with regard to the way that you are naturally designed to be able to take thoughts captive without necessarily speaking Jesus over you.

Carrie: If you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger self who was dealing with anxiety?

Dr. Sherri: This is probably not the most popular answer, but I really wouldn’t tell her anything. I would say, keep doing what you’re doing. You’re discovering the right path for you. I would just be on the sidelines kind of cheering like “good job. You’ve got this.” You can do this. You can figure this out. I think that comes from the space nobody can tell us exactly what to do. We can give ideas, we can give information, you can offer something, but really, it depends on it’s up to that person to pick it up. And so when they pick it up, then they kind of go, “oh, now I’ve got some interest,” but that really has to be a thing of the self.

I don’t know that anything I know for me, I’m a very stubborn person have been since I was a kid. Reframe that as tenacious, but if you tell me something, I’m not gonna learn by it. I have to do it.

Carrie: I think that’s interesting that if we don’t go through these struggles, it doesn’t get us to where we need to be. You know, that’s just part of the life process. And so maybe that encourages somebody today that like, you’re probably on the path of where you need to be and you just don’t necessarily know it right now. You’re probably like, what am I doing here? And why am I dealing with all this anxiety here? Why am I dealing with this? O C D instead of saying like, okay, well somehow this is all gonna weave together and I’ll look back. Yeah. It makes sense why I had that struggle and something good and something beautiful. Grew out of it in the end.

Dr. Sherri: Yeah. And I would say you don’t even have to wait for the end. One of the things it’s really, it’s about the process. We live in such a culture. You were referring to instant gratification, but we live in such a culture. That’s always looking for the success story. And I think the success story is not on the other side. The success is in the doing it’s in the right here right now like what am I doing right here right now? That’s the win? That’s the success? Am I doing something to learn in this moment? Am I doing something beneficial for myself? Am I doing something to grow right now? Or am I doing something to regress? because this is it. This is all we have is right here right now.

Carrie: And sometimes getting out of bed is a success. Yeah,

Dr. Sherri: Yeah absolutely. It’s what am I doing? Right. And I will say this, that particularly in Western culture, we have this underlying belief that suffering is not supposed to exist.

Carrie: It’s a very unhealthy belief for us to have. But

Dr. Sherri: But it is a cultural narrative. I read once there was a woman from Georgia, an academic from Georgia. I can’t think of her name at the moment, but she said we have an epidemic of people who are unhappy about being unhappy. We’re not supposed to be happy all the time. we can just start to talk about that, have that conversation, then we’re not gonna be so blown away when we’re happy.

Carrie: Thank you for sharing your personal story and as well as your insights, we’ll put the link to your nonprofit in the show notes.

Dr. Sherri: Thank you so much. It was a good conversation today.

Dr. Sherri: Thanks Carrie.

Carrie: I think there were several great takeaways that came out of this show with Dr. Sherry so I hope that you picked up a nugget that will help you kind of on your journey of progress. If you haven’t checked out our website, yet we have a website hope for anxiety and O C d.com that I just wanna encourage you to look at. We’re trying to do some updates to that and make it more searchable. So more people will be able to find out about our show. On the front page, you can sign up for our email newsletter and get a free audio file of color breathing, which is something that I’ve used with clients and they’ve really enjoyed it. They kind of can help you relax and calm down when you’re utilizing something like deep breathing. Sometimes it helps to have a mental focus. So this gives you that mental focus .

Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling.

Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

78. Bible Study from “Should” to “Want” with Keith Ferrin

Written by Carrie Bock on September 14, 2022. Posted in Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 78. Bible Study from “Should” to “Want” with Keith Ferrin

I’m privileged to be interviewing Keith Ferrin. Keith is a speaker and author, with a passion for helping people read, study, and enjoy the Bible.

How Keith developed his passion to help others read and enjoy the bible
How to internalize the scripture rather than memorize
Reading the Bible from a relational perspective
How can people fall in love and enjoy reading their Bible?
Keith Ferrin’s Book and Online Courses

Related Resources:

Keith Ferrin

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 78. I am your host, Carrie Bock. And if you’re new to our show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. While we’ve had several episodes about prayer on the show. I realized that we really have not talked about reading the Bible and I ran into a guest.

That would be good for that. So today on the show, we have Keith Ferrin who is a public speaker, and author of how to enjoy reading your Bible among other books that he’s written. So welcome to the show.

Keith: Thanks for having me, Carrie. Good to be here.

Carrie: You’re really passionate about not just people reading the Bible because it’s, they should, or because it’s a have to, but you really want people to study the Bible because they want to, and because they enjoy it and it builds their relationship with God.

How did you get on that journey of helping other people?

Keith: It wasn’t quick where I can point to the actual day when it started though, cuz I was one of those kids. I was raised in the church and I found that I was kind of one of those typical people that I run into now, which is for most people who are Christians, they’re reading the Bible is the one aspect of their life with Jesus that is more of a should than.

That we want to gather in community and we want to hear good preaching and we want to sing and worship, and we want to make a difference in the world and the Bible comes up and we go, yeah, I should read that more. And that was me for the first 20 years. I was a Christian and the shift took place over the course of about a year or two.

And it began on April 18th of 93. And it was something that I was a full-time youth and worship pastor at a small church plant in Tacoma, Washington, a few days prior to that, I was having lunch with a buddy of mine who was a youth pastor at another church in town. And my friend mark said, Keith, I don’t know what to make of this.

There’s this guy coming to our church Sunday night, who has memorized the entire gospel of Luke. And he gets up on stage with no sets or props or costumes or anything. And he. Quotes it, and while he quotes it, he kind of acts it out. And I just remember thinking, okay, that is a lot. And are people really gonna listen to that for two hours?

It’s just my idea of memorized quoted scripture transported me back to when I was eight-year-old, a second grader scared in front of a big church, quoting John three 16 as fast as I. So memorized quoted scripture and good drama. Didn’t quite line up for me in my brain. I went honestly, no great kind of spiritual motivation.

I thought it’d be fascinating, but I thought I would kinda sneak out after a little while and because I didn’t think it would be good in engaging. And I tell people what happened for me that night is the living word of God went from being a phrase to a reality that I find as I travel around the world for most people, the living word of God is a phrase that they wish was a reality.

And it has nothing to do with whether we believe it’s true but believing something’s true and believing something’s alive and engaging and fun. Those are two very different things. No, not only did I stay through the whole thing, but I went up to this guy afterwards, his name is Bruce, and I just said, “Hey, they mentioned you were gonna be in the Seattle area for a week doing these presentations at different churches and colleges. What could I take you to lunch tomorrow?” And our lunch turned into picking him up at noon and dropping him back off at 9:00 PM. And we spent the whole day together and he just challenged me to soak in bigger chunks of scripture to sit down.

And he said this, if, what if instead of studying this little piece and this little piece and then memorizing this verse and this verse, he said, what if you just took a book of the Bible and you just soaked in it until you knew it, you just hung out there until you know it. And I had heard my whole life about studying the Bible and memorizing verses.

I’d never heard anybody talk about soaking in it and hanging out with it. So I just decided for the summer of 93, I would. Read Philippians every day, Philippians takes about 15, 16 minutes. If you’re just kind of reading at a normal rate of speed and I had read it, but it had always taken four days because it’s four chapters.

And I was told somewhere along the line, you’re supposed to read a chapter a day, but I realized after about day two or three, that I was finally reading this letter. The way that you would actually read a letter, if you sent me a letter and it was four pages and the first line on page one, I give. Thanks every time I remember I wouldn’t read page one and then go, okay, I’m gonna save page two for tomorrow.

and take

Carrie: four days to read the letter.

Keith: Yeah. And so you’d read it and then you’d read it again. Over the course of that summer, I realized that I was making more connections. I was understanding it better. I was enjoying it more. I was remembering it, it was sticking in my mind and it was just such an engaging process that, that honestly, I got to the end of the summer and that I pretty much knew the whole thing, word for word without ever really trying because I had just read it 45 or 50 times. Think of the number of movie lines, you know, or song lyrics, you know, that you watched the movie or heard the song a bunch of times and you didn’t even try to memorize it. You just know it now.

And so that’s actually when I stopped even using the word memorize and started using the word internalized, cuz it was really knowing it, understanding it and memorization was kind of a small piece. Yeah.

Carrie: Can we camp out on that for a moment? Because I like that internalize versus memorize. Like when you think about memorizing something, you’re essentially regurgitating the material, right?

Like, oh, I memorized this line and then I’m saying it back to somebody talk about like the internalizing. What’s the difference there?

Keith: The essence of it can be summed up in kind of this sentence. Internalizing is about knowing the word and memorizing is about knowing the words. Ah, and so that idea, if you’ve internalized something, then you can probably quote it.

I mean, whether you can kind of perform it like Bruce did. And like, quite honestly, now I do, that’s a different level of work. I mean, to get it something stage ready, but to be able to have it where you can say it, it can come to your God can bring it to your mind. Whenever he wants to that when I’ve internalized something, if I’ve memorized something, then I don’t know that just by the fact of me being able to quote.

I don’t know that that’s transforming me to be more like Jesus or that’s really saturating my mind. But if I have internalized it, then I feel like when I had done that with Philippians and then the next year in 94, I made one new year’s resolution to internalize the gospel of John. I just wanted to read Bible. I wanted the life of Jesus to just saturate my life and mind.

And so I just read the gospel, John over and over again until I had it internalized. And when I did that, oh, and that’s why I say this process kind of took a year or two for. That as I had Philippians kind of both hidden in my heart and my mind, which is really what I think of as internalization and the gospel, John as well.

I understood over the course of the next year or two, what meditating on scripture is all about because you see things throughout scripture, whether it’s Psalm 1:19 or whether it’s Joshua. the do not let this book of the law depart from your mouth meditate. Day and night the word meditation and meditate on and think about and ponder and remember are woven all throughout scripture.

And I realized for the first time in 93 and 94 and into 95, what that was like because I could actually think about scripture. At times other than when I had my Bible open. Right? Yeah. I mean, once I had hidden it in both my heart and my head, I understood it and I knew it kind of word for word knew it, then God could bring it to my mind whenever he wanted, I could be walking down the street, whether it’s I needed a word of correction or comfort or encouragement or inspiration or whatever it is that you know, or whether I was talking to somebody else and they needed that.

I just felt like it was much more. Relational and conversational. And that’s what happened when internalized. And so I just found that all growing up, I tell people it’s just interesting that we, the first verse we typically have kids memorized in Sunday. School is John three 16, man. It’s a good one.

That’s a good place to start. But typically the second one is in Psalm one 19, where it says, I have hidden your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you. And we do that one, but typically when we talk. Actually knowing the word, we’re not talking about hiding it in our heart. We’re talking about hiding it in our head.

And so the second verse we teach kids is really about hiding it in our heart, but we don’t frequently equip them or ourselves to really build that understanding. And that love for God’s word. Into our memorization process. And I think when we combine those two, that’s where internalization happens. Yeah.

Carrie: I’m just kind of processing things from my own childhood. I think, cuz I grew up in the church and there was this element of almost like studying the Bible, like a school textbook mm-hmm but you were just supposed to know that you were supposed to read the Bible and nobody really sat down and said, this is how you read the Bible.

Or if you did, you may have gotten like a devotional book or two, and then it’s like, okay, well, I guess I’m supposed to go out and buy another devotional, or now you can there’s apps, you know? Okay. Well, I guess I’ll go get another devotional on the app. And one of the struggles I always had with those was you had two or three verses and then someone’s life story was really the rest of it.

And there are plenty of devotionals out there like that. And some of them there’s a time and a season for some of those. But it doesn’t really help you get into the word of God, right? Like you’re saying if you’re not actually reading the words of God and getting that in your head. I had a conversation with my husband a while back where I said, I have such a hard time memorizing scripture.

Like I really wanna know what it says, and I wanna be able to quote it. And he just really encouraged me not to get so hung up on saying it word for word, cuz I’m like, there’s these really long sentences in the Bible. And even if you try to break it down by phrase and it’s not how we typically talk or communicate.

And he said, “yeah, but it’s more important that you understand the essence of the scripture of what it is speaking to you rather than just being able to quote it back.” And I was like, “oh yeah, you’re right on that one. Reading the Bible like it was intended to be reading the letters. It was a letter really soaking in and reading some of the same things over and over.

How else can people really fall in love and enjoy reading their Bible?

Keith: That’s what I spend hours writing things and all that, but I’ll give you a couple of kind of nuggets. One is really what I call our position. You can remember these two by thinking of your position and your process. Your position is really your mindset, your approach to scripture.

I think that so often, and you just alluded to this, that so often when we’re 11, 12, 13, 14, we’re supposed to start reading the Bible on our own and having this quiet time or whatever it is, we are almost taught the Bible like a textbook and we’re approaching. Informationally. And I say, if your position is relational, instead of informational, yeah.

It will change everything. So many of us, we breed the Bible to learn what God wants us to know, so we can do what he wants us to do and live a life that honors and glorifies him. And that all sounds well and good, except it’s not the purpose of the Bible. The purpose of the Bible is the only book that’s ever been written with the purpose of drawing you into a relationship with its author.

The purpose of the Bible is relational. And I think let’s say that you and your husband moved here to the Seattle area and became friends with Carrie and me. And we said that we were gonna get together for dinner once a. Over the course of those weeks to come, we would learn things about each other. I’m not saying there’s not information in the Bible.

We would learn information about each other. And how did you and your husband meet and how long have you been married? Do you have kids and where are the different places you’ve lived and what do you do for work? And what do you like to listen to? I mean, we’d learn tons of information about each other, but imagine.

You and your husband coming to our house the first week and my wife and I pull out our notepads and across the top, it says, here are 54 questions. We need to ask Carrie and her husband. So if they’re gonna be our friends. And so how did you meet? Do you have any kids? How long have you been married? When did he brought you to Seattle?

What do you do for fun? What sports do you like? What music do you like? What tech do you like? What blah, blah, blah. You and your husband might be polite, but on the way home, you’re talking about how can we make sure we never have to come.

Carrie: Super awkward dinner.

Keith: I think that so often we go to the Bible and we’re taught, read what it says and figure out what it means and how it’s gonna apply.

And everything is kind of in that mindset. And I’m not saying those are bad questions, but if those are the only questions, I don’t think it leads to enjoying the Bible. Whereas the irony is that the more relational our approach, the more. Information will actually learn. I mean, think of the people that you’ve learned the most from the people that can correct your mindset, your attitude, when it’s off, that can comfort you the best.

I mean, those are also the people that you watch movies with and have a pizza with. And the people that you’re in deepest relationship with are the people who you learn the most from and who comfort you the best. We know that as people. And I think that if God is our heavenly father, why do we think that every day he wants to teach us something and that some days he just doesn’t wanna play with us and just enjoy the relationship.

And so there’s that relational mindset that I think is a huge piece of that. And that’s, that’s what I call. And kind of what’s our position as we come to the Bible. And the second is really the process and some of what I’ve already mentioned about kind of reading a big chunk that certainly falls into the process piece.

But what I realized is I was reading Philippians that, you know, every day for that summer, and then I. Read the gospel of John the next year. And I didn’t read that. Obviously, those two books are different. Philippians takes 15 minutes and John takes a little bit less than two hours. So when I was reading John during 94, that wasn’t something where I was reading the whole gospel every day.

I bet in the year there were probably two or three days outta the whole year where I sat down for two hours and just read the whole thing. Most days I’d read for 30 minutes or something like. But over the course of that 93, 94 timeframes, I kind of accidentally put some things together, which is realizing that when we line up our process of Bible study with how God has wired our brains to naturally and enjoyably learn anything, it changes everything that think of anything that, you know, anybody that’s listening to this podcast, think of something that you know really well and that you.

I don’t care whether it’s sports or music or cooking or technology, whatever it is, I’m guessing that you learned it from the general to the specific. You didn’t learn a detail and then add a little detail and then add a little detail. I love to cook Italian food, but if I’m gonna teach somebody how to cook Italian food, the first lesson is not gonna be all of the uses for basil.

If you’re gonna cook Italian food, you should probably know something about basil, but it’s not the first lesson. Right. And approaching the Bible from the general to the specific is 180 degrees opposite from how most of what I was taught the first 25 years, I was a Christian about how to study the. Yeah, analogy that frequently helps this idea make sense for people is I call it the movie analogy that if you and I, when your husband and you come over and we’re hanging out and we decide, let’s say that the four of us are gonna watch a movie.

I mean, imagine if after seeing one, I paused the movie and said, let’s discuss. And then we watched scene two and I paused it again and said, let’s discuss, wouldn’t be long before you and your husband would be like, just put the remote down. Let’s watch the movie after we’ve watched the movie. If you want to talk about a scene or a character or a plot twist or something like that, we can have a specific conversation, but we kind of wanna watch the movie first.

And I think from a process standpoint, one of the reasons that so many people are confused by the Bible, they’re bored by the Bible. They don’t remember what they read in the morning. By two o’clock in the afternoon is because we’re studying the Bible. Like we’re studying the scenes of a movie. We’ve never watched.

We know what Philippians four 13, I can do everything through him who gives me strength. We know what that means, but if I say what’s Philippians about we go, I don’t know. And I’ve fought the good fight. I’ve finished the race. I’ve kept the faith. We’ve heard sermons on that and we’ve seen it written about, and we’ve seen blog posts on it and all this kind of stuff.

And we don’t even know what book that’s in. Let alone. It’s second Timothy, by the way. So we don’t know what second Timothy’s about. We don’t know what was going on with Paul at the time. Whereas I tell people if you took second Timothy, which is that’s even shorter than Philippians, it’s four chapters, but they’re shorter chapters.

So it’ll take you probably 12 minutes. If you took second Timothy and you read second Timothy in its entirety every day for a month, and then you studied it verse by verse. After that you’d never read. I fought the good fight. I finished the race. I’ve kept the faith the same. Because when you got to that, which is toward halfway through chapter four, you’d have such an understanding of the whole picture.

Kinda like again, going back to the movies that if you’ve ever heard somebody, a speaker, whether it’s your, a pastor or just another speaker, that’s used a movie clip in their speaking and you see the movie clip. If you haven’t seen the movie, that movie clip, you can still kind of be inspired by it, or you might learn something or whatever.

But it’s nowhere near as rich an experience as if you’ve seen the movie that the clip comes from, because then when you see that clip, the whole movie floods back. Right? Right. So from a process standpoint, when we read more of it, when we read bigger chunks and when we then read that again and again, and soak in one, when we devote a month or two months or something like that, to reading the Bible and getting kind of the big picture overview.

And then we naturally move to the next place that we move, which is then looking at smaller pieces, looking at a chapter and then looking at a paragraph or one theme or something like that. And you’ll understand it because then you’re looking at that little detail in the context of the whole, which is how anything that we know deeply never met a musician that learns a song, one measure at a.

Carrie: I think you’re really talking about finding out about the character of God, which can only be found out over time. You can’t just like, I can’t know my husband all at once. I knew his character by watching his actions day by day by day and watching how he interacted with other people and watching how he interacted with me.

The words that he said, did they line up with what he actually did and those types of things. And I feel like that’s what we have to do with the Bible. We can’t know the character of God by one verse or one chapter or even one book. We have to really learn over time as we walk with him. And as we’re approaching the scripture that way, and then you have the surprises along the way.

I was talking one time and somehow we got on the conversation about milking cows mm-hmm and Steve, my husband. Oh, I’ve milked a cow. And I was like, you’ve milked a cow. I was like, I’ve never heard this story. You gotta tell me about that. he was like, well, yeah, I was, I had like ag because we grew up about an hour away from each other, but his area is not that way now, but it was a little bit more rural back then.

And I was in a little bit more of a suburb. So even though my mom milked cows growing up in Tennessee, I had never milked a cow. So I found this story very fascinating. Right. Anyway, I digress, but I think it helps us with situations. As we’re trying to walk on this earth when we can go back and point to not just, like you said, specific words, but, okay. What is the character of God through the Bible? That’s awesome.

Keith: Frequently people say, how do you go about studying the Bible? What do you do? And I don’t have time to kind of teach them my whole process of something. I’d boil things down to. Really asking four questions. And the first that you can take for any passage that you have, and the first question is that character of God, well, you know, what is this passage say about who God is?

And then looking at that, what does this passage say about what God has done? The third is what does this passage say about who I am or what I have or whatever, because of who God is and what he’s done. And then the fourth is really I’ve switched. It used to be kind of that one that I was raised on, which is what are you going to apply?

What’s your application? And I say, I’ve switched it a little bit to say, what is my response? Because I think sometimes that response is to apply something. Sometimes that response is to change your thinking or to correct something or whatever, or get rid of something or. Whatever, but sometimes our response is just to worship.

Sometimes our response is just to sit in silence. Sometimes our response is just to be amazed at how cool the story was. We just read. I think that when our question is, how can I apply this? Then that puts us in an informational mindset. Whereas if we say, what is my response? God may have something to teach you and have something for you to apply.

And if that’s the case, then apply it. But God may also just want to that particular day. Reveal something about just how much he loves you. And your response is to say, thank you. And then to go through the rest of your day. I think that idea of we need to learn something every day is just not bad. It’s just misdirected.

And

Carrie: I think that switching it from the concept of, I need to learn something versus I need to maybe experience the word of God today. I don’t know if that’s a good word to use there. It really takes down some of that intimidation that I think people have about approaching the Bible almost like they think they have to have a degree or something to learn from it.

But a lot of the Bible was written by some people that were educated and some people that were not formally educated. So just kind of going back even to the authors, the fact that you would have to approach it from an academic. Oh, I went to school for it is a little ridiculous for sure.

Keith: Absolutely.

Couldn’t agree.

Carrie: okay. Tell us a little bit about what’s coming up for you as far as books, or I know that you do speaking engagements. How can people find you as well?

Keith: Well the easiest way is keithferrin.com is my blog. Some of the things that we’ve talked about today, I mean, relational Bible study. Got a course on that. If you just search relational Bible study or just go to relational Bible study.com, that will take you. If that kind of how to study the Bible, if that’s something you struggle with or that internalized just last September recorded a brand new online course, teaching people my process of internalization and kind of how to hide it in your head and your heart.

And so keithferrincom/internalize is how to find that. The main thing, as far as books goes, it’s been fun. I have something called the Bible life community, which I started two weeks after the pandemic started for I’d had it in my mind for a couple years, but once all my speaking engagements were canceled and I had a bunch of time on my hands, I finally created this kind of online Bible study community.

I write a new Bible study. Every month. And sometimes it’s one month study. Sometimes it’s two months. Sometimes it’s a book study. Sometimes it’s a topic, things like that. But I guide people through that. We discuss it together in community. We have some live conversations over zoom and all that. That’s been really fun and I’ve taken the last several of these studies and turned them into books that, so it’s been crazy cuz I released six books in 20 years and then four books in the last six.

Just taking these Bible studies. And since they’re right there and I’ve been writing them anyway, I just turned them into these books that I call the scripture journey series. And so two of them have been topical, advent and lent when we walked the first one was advent coming up to Christmas and then lent going up to Easter.

And we did a book study on the book of Ephesians. Book study on the book of first Peter, if you go to Amazon and you search on my name, one of the things you’ll see there and all the covers kind of look similar, but there’s a series of books called the scripture journey series that are kind of these combinations of the utilizing the process that we’ve talked about, but also having a devotional aspect to it.

So a lot of small groups and churches and things like that will take some of those because most of them are 40-day scripture journeys is what I call ’em and those have been really fun to see people walk through those.

Carrie: You did a blog post that I saw on your website about messing up during one of your talks. It was great.

Keith: That was the craziest because as you know, as I kind of, we didn’t talk a ton about, but as I alluded to, I saw Bruce do the gospel of Luke and then started three years later in March of 96, I started performing in quotes, the gospel of John, but then also present different books of the Bible, short books about the way that he did with Luke.

So I did that. I’ve been doing that for 26 years of kind of doing the biblical storytelling. It was last fall. I think that was all the week. It was, I think it was the weekend after Thanksgiving or something like that. And I’d been presenting John for a quarter century. I’ve done a ton and there was a church that’s local here in Seattle.

I’ve spoken at this church probably 20 times friends with the pastor and they’re preaching through John. So they had me take two Sundays in a. Present John one through five as the sermon. Just no preaching. Just get up, present John one through five and just kind of the watching the movie, if you will.

And then the next Sunday, six through 10. And I mean, you talk about having brain freezes as you saw from the clip, the clip that is on my website that you saw. That was from the second service, which went better. The first service was even worse than the clips that you saw, but I thought let’s just throw it out there.

And some of the conversations that led to, and just the transparency were all a mess. Yeah. We all have days that are good and days that are bad. And we have days that we take things that we’ve known and that we’ve done well and everything. And some days, those things that we’re good at that we’ve done well, that we’ve been solid on before.

Some days, even that’s messy. And just realizing that as one of my friends calls it, we’re all a glorious mess. So it’s just be gloriously messy together.

Carrie: Yeah. And just the idea that God can use you, no matter what your mess has been or is in the present. I just, I love that concept. So this piece of the podcast and everything certainly is not perfect, but we strive to get it better.

A little at a. All right. Well, thank you so much for talking with us about this today. Its pleasure. It’s been very interesting for me and eye-opening. Just thinking about my own process and what I would like to do maybe differently in what I can try. It was helpful.

Keith: Thanks for having me.

Carrie: I have to say that since interviewing Keith, I made this decision to read through first Peter over and over again as our pastor is preaching through first Peter right now. So he does one chapter a week and I haven’t necessarily done it every single day, but I’ve read through several times and it’s been interesting to see.

The different themes and the different things that stick out to me on different days, kind of seeing that as a whole entity, instead of just broken down into different chapters or different verses. One thing that we didn’t mention in this episode that I just wanted to throw here in the end is that the Bible has some quite crazy stories in the old Testa.

To put it mildly. If you read those things, you’re like, what in the world just happened right now? It definitely makes for some interesting reading. Granted, there are some kind of boring parts of the old Testament when you get into the genealogies, but some of the stories in there. If you’ve never read, ’em are pretty amazing.

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Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum, Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.