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Author: Carrie Bock

Carrie Bock is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Smyrna, TN who helps people get to a deeper level of healing without compromising their faith. She specializes in working with Christians struggling with OCD who have also experienced childhood trauma, providing intensive therapy for individuals who want to heal at a faster pace than traditional therapy.

217. When the Suffering Won’t End with John Bennett

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

Carrie welcomes back John Bennett from Episode 76 for a powerful conversation about how a multiple myeloma diagnosis in 2019 has shaped his faith, perspective on heaven, and daily purpose, with encouragement for anyone walking a long road of suffering.

Episode Highlights:

  • What John discovered when he stopped fighting his diagnosis and chose to embrace it instead.
  • How to keep going when OCD, anxiety, or suffering feels like a long-term battle.
  • Why focusing on today can bring more peace and reduce anxiety
  • How acceptance can help you walk with God in the middle of pain
  • What it looks like to find purpose and live out your faith even with limitations or ongoing struggles
  • How God uses suffering to build endurance, deepen your faith, and remind you that your healing story isn’t finished yet
  • How suffering that never fully goes away can still become one of the greatest gifts in your life.

Episode Summary:

I surveyed our listeners a while back and found that most of you have been struggling with OCD for ten to fifteen years. That is a long time to be in something hard. So when I think about who I want to bring into this space, I want someone who actually knows what the long road feels like. John Bennet was on the podcast back in episode 76, and I am so glad he came back. He was diagnosed with multiple myeloma in May of 2019. Doctors did not think he would still be here. But nearly seven years later, he is, and I think what he has learned in that time is exactly what so many of you need to hear.

Why Does God Allow Suffering That Doesn’t End?

When suffering lingers far longer than we hoped, it can leave us asking hard questions about God, healing, and how to keep moving forward. In this episode, I sit down again with John Bennett to talk about what it looks like to trust God in the middle of ongoing pain. John shares openly about his journey with multiple myeloma, a terminal blood cancer, and how the Lord has sustained him through years of treatment, fatigue, and uncertainty.

How Do You Keep Going When Healing Doesn’t Come?

What stayed with me after this conversation is John’s perspective on suffering. Rather than spending his strength fighting against what was happening, he chose to accept that God had allowed this trial and would use it for good. That does not mean the journey has been easy. It means he found a way to walk with God through it, and his story is a powerful picture of faith, endurance, and living with purpose even when life feels hard.

What Do You Do When You’ve Prayed for Healing but Still Feel Stuck?

We explore what it means to suffer for the long haul rather than a short season. We talk about how discouraging it can be when healing does not come the way we prayed for, how lonely it feels when others do not understand ongoing pain, and how God meets us one day at a time even when we cannot see the full picture.

Can You Still Live with Purpose While You’re Hurting?

There is so much here for anyone walking through OCD, anxiety, chronic illness, grief, or any struggle that has not resolved quickly. Even when suffering is not removed, God is still near, still faithful, and still working in ways we may not yet see.

Is There Hope If My Struggle Feels Like It Will Never End?

If you have been carrying something heavy for a long time, I pray this episode helps you feel less alone and more anchored in God’s love. 

Tune in to the full episode of Christian Faith and OCD Episode 217 to hear this conversation with John Bennett and be encouraged in your own journey. If it blesses you, share it with someone who needs it today.

Explore Related Episode:

76. Finding Joy in the Midst of the Trial of Cancer with John Bennet
Transcript

Christian Faith and OCD Episode 217 (1)

Carrie: Welcome OCD Warriors to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian sharing hopeful stories. And replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace. I’m Carrie Bock, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

I pray you are blessed by today’s episode. Last time we recorded way back on episode 76 and now we are recording together again on episode 217. So it’s been a little while. Wow. Yeah. It’s good to have you back though. And last time we were focused on joy in the midst of your cancer trial, and since we have many new listeners, can you just give us the cliff notes version of like when you were diagnosed and where you are now on your cancer journey?

John: I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which is a blood cancer that is considered now to be treatable for most people, or a lot of people that’s not curable. It’s still considered technically a terminal cancer. It does kill many people, but they’ve come a long way. So I was diagnosed in May of 2019. I have been on some pretty intense treatment for the first year and a half and had some surgeries and different things, and then I’ve been on a maintenance treatment up until today actually.

So currently that kind of helps keep the cancer at bay because most of the time studies have shown 80 to 90% of the time multiple myeloma comes back. So you have to fight it again. So this has been almost seven years that I’ve had this disease, and actually I’m very thankful to be alive. When I first was diagnosed, they really didn’t think I would probably be alive at this point.

But the treatments have come so far that I’m actually still here and doing better than I thought I would be able to be doing at this point. It’s definitely been a journey, but God has been incredibly faithful and as I mentioned, just the advances in the treatment has. I’ve come so far in the seven years that I’ve had the cancer, that it went from being a virtually a death senate several years before I got the cancer, to now being something that people can at least continue to have, hopefully a good many years of life after they’re diagnosed.

I think

Carrie: that’s really helpful to know is that especially with medical things, sometimes people project into the future, and the truth is God is the only one that really knows. We don’t know what the future holds. And so I’m always a little cautious when people say things like, well, the doctor said there’s only this much time left, or this terrible thing could happen, or that thing could happen.

We just have to really trust God in those hard moments. Like, okay, well, you know, and you hold the future in our hands at that point.

John: Definitely, and I think with this scenario, God has really used it in my life, and I talked about that in our first podcast a lot, but he has worked in my life so much to bring me closer to him.

And he gave me the ability to really embrace this after I was diagnosed. Of course, it’s a scary thing to find that out, but I felt like God was telling me, look, I ordained you to have cancer. This is what I have for you. And so I decided I was just gonna embrace it and I haven’t always done that with things in my life, but I decided I would do that and roll with it.

And it has turned out a lot better than I thought it was gonna, really didn’t think I’d still be alive right now. Much less doing as well as I’m doing. So you’re right. I think you can’t predict the future when God is involved and if he’s in in it, even if it doesn’t turn out like you want it to, it still can be a real blessing and that’s definitely what’s happened for me.

A good thing I didn’t get all depressed and really get. Mad at God and hopeless because it would’ve been a shame I would’ve wasted so much time that I’ve had, and I’ve had a lot more time than I thought I was gonna. So you’re right. Sometimes it’s best not to prejudge, I guess, the future, and especially with thinking about the negative things that could happen or the worst case scenarios.

Carrie: I wanted to have you on because I consider you a spiritual expert in suffering. Dunno if you knew that or not. Oh gosh. Uh, I don’t think I live up to that, but I appreciate the, well, so I surveyed our listeners several months ago, and the majority of people that are tuning in to this, I would say, have been struggling with OCD in some way, shape, or form.

I mean, it can wax and wane under stress, so they may have had some periods where it was lighter or maybe not at all, but then some periods where it was very bad. They’ve been struggling for a good 10 to 15 years. And so it’s one thing to go through a suffering for a short period of time. Someone has like a broken foot and then they recover.

And it’s another situation for someone when you’re in it for the long haul. And so that’s what I really wanted to address today on the podcast is like, how do we keep going when we know that there’s going to be some type of pain, whether that’s physical pain. Or more so for our listeners, like a mental and emotional pain that they’re dealing with.

I think a lot of people who are suffering are ask why. In my situation, I’ve been through some sufferings, whether that’s been like loss of my foster children, loss of my parents at what I consider to be a younger age, and I haven’t really necessarily found the question of why to be helpful. It’s almost like this sidewalk that just cuts off and ends, it hasn’t necessarily gone anywhere for me.

Is that something that you’ve seen just in your own suffering or dealing with other people who are suffering?

John: It’s a good question because it can wear you down over time. We hear the saying that it’s more of a marathon than a sprint, and I think when you’re dealing with something, you have to pace yourself.

Realize that you just take it one day at a time. Don’t look too far in the future and don’t try to take on too much too quickly. I think that has helped me to deal with my situation. My attitude has been, I just thank God I’m alive today. I get to live today, and if I can focus on today, it makes a huge difference.

I don’t have to think about what treatment may be coming up down the road or et cetera, et cetera. I’ve also noticed that people that may support us, maybe it’s family, friends, people at our church. Life group or Sunday school class, they don’t know how to deal most of the time with a long-term situation, if it’s a disease or a struggle, if, like you said, if you broke your foot or you’re gonna be in the hospital for a surgery, everybody’s good to go.

Pray for that, and you get better quickly and you’re through the surgery. And then. You’re on the way to healing. I have found that people don’t really understand and they don’t know how to deal with a long-term cancer like I have. So I understand that and I try not to get offended or feel like they don’t care, but they’re good at praying for things for a short period of time, and we all are.

I’m the same way. And so I’ve chosen to focus on, this is a part of my life. I’m not gonna expect people to continually be praying for me or asking me about it or whatever. And that’s okay with me. I’m fine to move on from that ’cause I don’t wanna focus on it all the time. But I think some people might get discouraged with a long-term challenge because even their best friends are probably not gonna be consistent to be asking them constantly about it or.

Know how to deal with it, and maybe they don’t know how to even understand how something could keep going on. It’s kinda like, well, we prayed for it. We’ve talked about it. It’s time to move on. But there’s certain things in life you just can’t do that with. It’s not only maybe patients with ourselves, but patients with our friends and our support group as well.

Carrie: Yeah, I have had different people tell me that I’ve been through deliverance ministry for my OCD, or I’ve had people in the church lay hands on me. I’ve begged God for healing from this situation, and it can be really hard when that doesn’t come or when other people don’t know how to respond to you.

Like in the midst of continued suffering.

John: Yes, I noticed that with my friends, my closest friends, they reached out. In a major way when they first found out about my diagnosis, but then when I didn’t die quickly and I kept moving forward, they didn’t know what to do. We don’t really talk about it a whole lot more, which is fine with me, but you still need your close confidants that you can share if there’s updating your situation or if it’s OCD and you’re having an episode that you really need to talk to somebody about, or with me, if I have a situation with my medical.

Team, that team, I need to discuss with someone. You still need those people to go to, but it’s different with a long-term illness. It really is. It’s a different scenario and who knows why. God allows us to have some things that we just don’t get over completely or we get somewhat better, but. It’s never fully healed.

I guess that’s what heaven is for really. There’s certain things in our lives that may not heal until we get to heaven, and that’s okay, but it’s very difficult to understand. It’s not a formula. We prayed for it. We went to this seminar, we did this, and all of a sudden it’s fixed. That’s just not always.

In real life.

Carrie: Yeah. Talk to me about your perspective on heaven now. How has that changed?

John: Heaven and death is a lot more exciting to me now than it ever was before, and I hope that doesn’t sound too weird, but I’m not afraid to die. I’m ready to go at any time. I think I had some fear before I had a terminal cancer diagnosis, but I had to face that I might die and that I might die fairly quickly.

We didn’t know how aggressive the blood cancer was gonna be. It’s so individual with different people. I chose to accept that this could be it for me. I may not be around that long once I accepted. I guess the worst thing technically that could happen is it kills me. It’s amazing the freedom that I had.

Mm-hmm. After that. And don’t worry about it anymore. Things that scare other people don’t scare me. I, I know I was telling somebody, this is a really strange situation too, but I was with the police officer that I know and we were eating in a restaurant, and police officers tend to always like to sit.

With their backs away from the door so they can watch the door. ’cause they’re trained to always watch and be on guard and everything. And I told this police officer, this is gonna sound weird to you, but I said, if somebody came in here and started shooting at us, I would certainly try to defend us and I would do anything I can.

And I certainly hope that doesn’t happen. But if they shoot me, I’m really not worried about it. I’ve gotten another day of life. And maybe it’s just, it gets down to gratefulness too, of what you do have. Because you realize you could lose it all, and I was prepared for that. So every day that I get is such a blessing that I’m freer now.

I have more joy now than I had before, but I’m not cured. I’m like a lot of your listeners, I’m not fit right? My situation has not gone away. It’s just that I’ve learned to be thankful for what I can do and what I do have, and that even if this cancer never gets cured. That’s okay. It’s still a blessing every day of life that I have.

Carrie: Yeah, I like this verse in Corinthians four 17 for this light, momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. And I think sometimes we look at our life and we say, okay, this is not light momentary affliction. This feels really heavy. And really hard right now, but it’s like the word tells us that the sufferings that we’re going through right now are gonna prepare us for one day.

There’s gonna be no suffering at all, and only joy. I remember after my husband got diagnosed with his neurological condition, and I remember looking at him one day, we were talking, somehow it came up in small group about heaven. And he, prior to diagnosis, had an active life where he was skateboarding and we were hiking together and he’s done all these physical things and I said, do you ever think about running again?

Like do you think about like running in heaven? And it was interesting. Sometimes he’ll have dreams even about things that he used to be able to do, like surfing or running or things like that. And I just. Think that that’s kind of a, a beautiful picture, that we know that there’s hope on the other side, and no one knows how long we have, but we know that our end destination is good.

John: Somebody told me one time, we pray for people, just talk about people that have some kind of sickness and we pray for them and ask God to heal them. And I had never thought about this, but some people he chooses to heal by taking them to heaven. Yeah, and it was a whole different concept for me when I started thinking about that because I’ve always thought, well, you know, God needs to heal this person, but then he lets them die, but he heals them by taking them on to heaven, which is the ultimate healing.

And so either way, it’s gonna work out great for us, whether we’re healed on this side of heaven, just like anxiety, OCD, whatever somebody’s dealing with. They may not get completely healed on this side of heaven, but they will be healed when they go and meet Jesus face to face in heaven. If they’ve accepted him as their Lord and their savior, the healing is gonna happen.

And something else that I’ve realized is that every person that Jesus healed. His ministry eventually died. Wow. Yeah. He didn’t heal them and they never had any other sickness as far as we know. They all died. And so even if we get healed from something, then still there’s gonna be death in some way.

Whether in a, a physical death, and I know some of your listeners may not be dealing with a physical illness or it may manifest itself physically, but maybe it’s emotionally or. Mentally in some ways that are, you know, that’s blocking them. But everybody has things that they’re struggling with and some of us get healing for a period of time, but eventually we’re all gonna die anyway.

I guess when you think about things that way, it gives you more patience to not have to have everything fixed right now. I mean, our bodies, as we get older, they break down more, just things happen. So it’s okay that people don’t get everything fixed in their life. None of us are perfect if we can grow some and get somewhat better.

I think we have to embrace that and just realize that we’re human beings.

Carrie: It’s interesting. I think a lot of what you’re talking about is perspective. You could have the perspective of, I get outta bed today and I have terminal cancer and I’m going to die. Oh, that’s awful. And I don’t want to do that. And almost like this internal fight against.

Where you’re at. But you’re saying, I wake up every day and I’m like, Hey, God gave me another day. How can I make a difference for him or love people better? Tell us a little bit about that. Like I’m reading this book called On Getting Outta Bed, and it basically says we all have to answer this question of why we getting outta bed in the morning, even on the, the really hard days.

Mm-hmm. When we don’t wanna get out of bed, we’re sick, we’re suffering, we’re in pain. We think, is this ever gonna end for you? How would you answer that question? Like, why do you get out of bed in the morning?

John: I know that God has left me on this earth for a purpose, and one of the purposes is to be a witness for him and to people.

I feel like he’s called me to be an encourager that motivate, pray and ask God people that I can be witness to, give people that I can encourage each and every day. One of the things that I deal with is fatigue. I have some pretty extreme fatigue because of all of the treatment I’ve been on for all these years.

And the maintenance treatment that I’m still on, it causes a lot of fatigue. So I can’t do the things I used to do. And you’re talking about your husband, Steve. My abilities are drastically reduced from what I could do seven years ago. Not just because of my age, but because of all the treatment and drugs that have gone into my body to help kill this cancer, to help keep it down, to help me survive.

And so there’s been a cost paid for that. I don’t have the energy, so I have to focus more. And when I get up in the morning, I’m not just jumping out of bed like I was a few years ago. Now it’s more difficult and the fatigue hits me about midday and it’s difficult for me to make it push through the rest of the day.

So it’s not easy. But I think what does motivate me is I still have a purpose. I could just say, well, gosh, I’m just too tired. So like doing anything. And some days there are definitely days like that when I have to just rest. So I’m not saying we don’t have those times when we have to step back, but there is the motivation that I’m alive today so I can be a blessing to somebody and for myself.

I’ve got a new platform to encourage people. ’cause when they find out I do have a cancer diagnosis, it does seem to help them to get things more in perspective because I think, well, gosh, what am I complaining about? This guy’s got a terminal cancer. It’s a platform just like your husband, Steve, how motivating he’s to people.

Because he doesn’t let his disease and his physical challenges get him defeated. That can really inspire people. But I also have to, I was talking about pacing yourself earlier. I have to pace myself. I can’t do as much or reach as many people, or I don’t have the energy to see as many people or whatever the opportunity may be today.

So I have to prioritize more, but I still have those things every day that I wanna do, and I wanna make a difference. And God does use me. I believe in some capacity every day. That’s really a neat opportunity. So it keeps me wanting to get up ’cause I know he’s not done with me yet. He may have slowed me down some with allowing me to get this cancer and the treatments I’ve been through, but he’s still using me.

Matter of fact, he’s probably using me more than he ever has. It’s just I have to prioritize more and maybe more impact less volume in that I can’t do as many things. But I think with some of the things that I’m able to do. There’s more impact than I did have before. I’ve been through this last seven year battle with cancer.

Carrie: Yeah, we’ve got you on the volume ’cause you’re going out to lots and lots of countries right now. So we have people that listen on Australia and the UK and Canada and America, of course. Uh, all over the place, so, oh, awesome. Yeah, I think this is very encouraging. I think focusing in on today and the moment and really asking God, okay, what is your purpose or will or who do I need to reach out to today?

Who do I need to encourage? And I think all of that is great. And I see we can, in our pain, we have like two options. We can go really inward and focus on ourselves and say, this is awful. Why me? I can’t believe that I’m having to go through this. I’m frustrated, like you said, angry with God. Why would God allow this in my life?

Or we can accept that it’s here and say, okay, I heard somebody say, instead of asking why, ask what. Okay, what are you doing, God? What are how and how? How are you going to use this? For your good and your glory. Like that’s what, uh, Romans 8 28 tells us. So I think that those are questions that people can lean into in the hard times.

We know that Romans five, three through five tells us that we rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character. And character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame because God’s love has been poured into our hearts. Through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us in the beginning of James.

It also uses that word endurance when it talks about having joy in various times of trials. Tell us a little bit about your thoughts and perspectives on endurance on keeping going.

John: I was gonna refer to that verse in James when it also breaks out and it says, and let Endurance have its perfect work.

That verse has really spoke to me a lot because that’s why I think we go through something and why we don’t try to avoid it with challenges. Because if you let endurance have its perfect work, in other words, don’t try to run from. Try to embrace it, see what God’s gonna teach you for it, from it through it, that gives you that perfect work of Christ where he uses that to the Nth degree and you don’t wanna waste any of it.

You don’t wanna waste any of that endurance that you learn because that is what gets you through the hard times in life. If you can continue to jump back in there. And I’ve found that what I have learned with cancer. Of you deal with it every day. You go through the fatigue, you go through the treatment, but you just keep on rolling.

You don’t let it knock you off. Of course, some days are tougher than others, but you just continue to move forward. And as I’ve done that, I’ve found that other challenges in my life are really not that difficult for the most part because I’ve learned so much. Of endurance and keeping on. Keeping on and not letting this get the best of me, and keeping your attitude where it needs to be.

One that serves Christ and one that trust in him. It has taught me and is still teaching me in ways that help me in other areas of my life. But. You do have to let endurance have its perfect work. I’ve mentioned on the podcast before that when I went through a stem cell transplant, I was nauseous for 30 days straight in the hospital, and that was very discouraging.

After about two weeks of not wanting to eat anything. Anything that resemble food made me think of, of being sick. I just didn’t enjoy it at all. I went through that and I mean, what was I gonna do? I couldn’t give up, right? I had to keep going and I had to just force down some food because I had to eat enough where I could survive, even though I was losing weight.

And I finally found I could eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I may have mentioned that last time. Yeah, it was the one thing that didn’t completely make me sick to my stomach, so I tried to eat some of those and it finally gotta, where that’s about all I ate is to survive. I remember talking to the doctors, I’m like, how long does this go on?

They said, well, it doesn’t normally go quite this long, but we’re not really sure when it’s gonna stop. I’m like, oh my, and this like day 29. I was like, okay, this has been a long time. You know what, four weeks? And they don’t know when it’s gonna stop. It’s miserable. Every time they mention breakfast, lunch or dinner.

It just a horrible thing for me. Yet I was losing weight and I was eating what I could. It was just not a pleasant experience, and I didn’t know that the 30th day was gonna be the last day of that day. 31. Yeah, out of nowhere. All of a sudden I wanted to eat again. In that situation, I didn’t have a whole lot of choice, but I had to let endurance have its perfect work.

But that 30 day period was a long grind for me. I think a lot of times God allows us to go through those long grinding times. We don’t know when the end’s in sight. We don’t know when things are gonna get better, but wouldn’t it have been a shame if I had completely given up on day 29 or day 30, because then the next day I was gonna get my appetite back and things were gonna get much, much better.

I remember too, after I had the stem cell for a good while after, if I ate any food from a restaurant, it had to be put in the oven. At a certain temperature for 30 minutes. And so the food was already cooked. When somebody would pick it up for me from the restaurant and we had to put it in the oven for 30 minutes and just baked it to a crisp because they had to kill every possible germ, and it just wasn’t good.

It kind of ruined it. But eventually I got through that and then I could. Eat food that was from the restaurant without having to worry about that. For the longest time, I couldn’t go out to lunch, and this was during COVID and all too, but even before and after that, because of my condition, my immune system was so weak I couldn’t be around people very much.

And I thought, man, I wish I could go to lunch. I think for two years I couldn’t go out to lunch and be around people and now I can go out to lunch. It’s like I did get through it. Every now and then I have to pinch myself and remember how good it is that I can’t eat, that I do have an appetite. Remember how good it is that I don’t have to overcook my food to try to kill all the germs and remember what a blessing it is that I can go out to lunch and sit with my wife or.

A friend or a family member and not have to worry about, oh my gosh, if I catch anything, I’m gonna die. Some of it is maybe looking back on the things that God has brought us through and reminding ourselves because I like everybody. I forget those things, but I hadn’t even thought about those things in a good while until we were just disgusted.

So. What a blessing it is that I can go out to lunch. Yeah. And things like that. A lot of people take for granted. I know I’ve talked to people that have foot surgeries and ankle surgeries and things like that, and we talk about how, gosh, you never realize what a blessing it is to be able to walk until you can’t.

And you’ve got all your body weight on this part that is extremely sore or broken or whatever. And I know Steve, your husband deals with some of that. We forget how blessed we’re. So if we can think about those kind of things, it kind of overwhelmed. The downside. And I think praising God and thanking him is always an antidote for depression.

I’ve gotten knocked down with this situation, but I can’t say I’ve really gotten depressed or stayed down. And I think the real key is not anything super that I do other than just I’ve gotta turn to praising God for what I do have. As somebody once said, find the good and praise it. And I’d say find the good and praise God for that good.

That will eliminate. And if you look at it, you don’t have to look very far to find somebody that’s a whole lot worse off than you are. Number one, and you don’t have to look very far to see a ton of blessings. You may have some challenges and you’ll have them because we all do. But if you look at all the blessings that you have to go with that challenge, God’s not gonna just give us the dirty laundry.

He gives us some wonderful, beautiful things. To go with it as well. And some of those things we wouldn’t have gotten. Some of the beauty we would not have received had we not had the hard stuff to go with it.

Carrie: Yeah. I mean, I can just remember times like going through my divorce and I’d go outside and like a flower would be blooming and that would mean a lot to me in that moment.

It was like the beauty of God, just like my life felt so. And then there’s this flower would be coming out of the ground. And it just allowed me to appreciate all the small things. And you were talking about looking backwards and recognizing like how far God has taken you out of specific situations. And I think it was very recently that I said to Steve, I said, do you remember that I had a young baby And people were telling me, your husband’s gonna be in a wheelchair.

Like you need to prepare now and understand like that this is gonna happen. I said that was so scary, obviously, and he lived in this crazy split level where there was no way to do wheelchair in that house and just housing market. Anyway, God’s been faithful to us along that journey to be in a different place now, and also that he’s not in a wheelchair.

That he’s actually walking really well right now, and I can only explain that via God and the work that he’s done in his life, and Steve’s positive attitude and willing to keep walking and keep going and keep moving. But he said, you know, Kerry, they weren’t wrong to tell you that. They just didn’t know, like no one knew.

They were just trying to prepare you for the worst case scenario. But we’re just thankful every day that he can walk with a cane and that he can get around. We feel very, very blessed that he’s involved in our daughter’s life. When we thought he was losing his eyesight, and I said, we were just praying that you were gonna be able to see your daughter born.

I mean, God’s brought us so far and we have to live day by day in a different way than you do, but we still just try to take things one step at a time.

John: Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, I think a lot of times that a lot of things that we worry about or dread never happen, or they happen and they’re better than we thought they would be.

I mean, like for me, I mean my cancer, I would never have envisioned that I would be doing as well as I am today. Seven years ago, I didn’t think I would be here, number one, and I sure didn’t think I would be doing as well as I’m now, have I had struggles? Yes. Is the fatigue rough? Yes. I mean, there’s some challenging parts to it.

It’s certainly not a party, but it really is a party compared to what I thought it was gonna be because I knew what, how bad it could get, and I knew that it did get that bad with some people and with this disease, it’s amazing. Like I said, I think we waste a lot of energy and a lot of time maybe dreading things that never happen and so.

Very thankful. I did have, uh, one friend that was in the hospital with me when I got my stem cell transplant. He died in the room beside me. Wow. Had the same cancer I had, and we had gotten to be friends and he was going through the treatment and he died and they couldn’t save him. And that really was a shocker to me.

I was like, I’ve got the same thing he has. Well, God didn’t have the same plan. He took him on home and healed him in a different way. He was a strong Christian man, but if I had thought that was gonna happen to me and dreaded it, I would’ve wasted a lot of time being miserable when I’ve actually been unbelievably blessed to be able to do all I’ve been able to do.

So we can’t figure out God, that’s for sure. And we don’t need to. I think there’s some unique things in our suffering and our challenges and our problems and our conditions or diseases that we have that can really open up a lot of beauty in life and allow us to be used more than we would otherwise. To bless other people.

To be a witness to other people, to encourage other people, and certainly just to give us joy. It can help us not take life for granted as much. If everything went great all the time, would we seek God? Probably not. And would we find as much joy? Probably not. I think when you struggle and you go through some tough times, it makes you appreciate the good times and you also appreciate that God was with you through those hard times.

I can look back. I know he was with me every second through this whole cancer process, even when I felt like, golly, what’s going on here? He needed the future. He had a plan and it was a good plan. That’s true for each one of us.

Carrie: Steve knew that I was gonna be talking to you today and he said, John is on a mission to take as many people to heaven with him.

Do you feel that way?

John: I definitely would love to do that. One of the things that I do a lot is I’m a Gideon with the Gives out the Bibles, and so I try to keep New Testament Bibles with me all the time, and I’ve just gotten more bold at approaching people and talking to them about the Bible and about God’s plan of salvation and giving them that and encouraging them to follow Christ because one thing I don’t really worry as much about what people think after I’ve kind of faced death.

I’m not in a popularity contest anymore. I’m more of, I want other people to know Christ because. Having faced death, I know that it’s coming to all of us and I’ve gotten a little closer than I wanted to get to it. I know it’s a serious thing and I know it could come to anyone at any time, and I just feel like if I’m gonna be here, whether it’s another day or another week or another year or another, 10 years or more, I really wanna be about doing God’s work and reaching out with the love of Christ and with his gospel.

Because the main thing is we wanna be healed spiritually and we want people to know Jesus. The next thing is gonna be the healing physically and mentally and emotionally, but we’re all gonna die. So when we do die, are we gonna go and be with Jesus forever? And then if we get that right, he can help us with all the other things as well.

And it doesn’t mean though, that everything’s gonna go great, doesn’t mean we don’t have a lot of struggles, but we just keep getting back in there and. God has been so tenacious with all of us reaching out to us and loving us over and over, and I have failed him. I dunno how many millions or hundreds of millions of times in my lifetime.

Uh, but he still loves me. He still reaches out to me. He still cares for me. He still makes a way for me, and he does that for each of us. It’s such a gift. I want other people to know Christ, and I know your husband’s the same way too. He’s on mission trips constantly and reaching out. But I definitely feel a call that time is of the essence.

There’s a sense of urgency, especially me. I don’t know how long I’ll be alive. I’m fine with that. I’m not worried about it, but I wanna make. Every day count because when it’s all said and done, I really want to have been used for the Lord and we’ve all wasted time. I’ve wasted time. I’ve wasted years where I could have been closer to the Lord.

I could have been used more. I was focused on different things, just selfish things. But I think at this point in my life, I don’t wanna waste any time. I know. The main thing is for people to know Christ and to experience his love, and that’s the best thing I could give him. It’s very important for me to be focused on Christ and yeah, try to lead as many people to him as I can.

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast with me again. I think this is gonna be good for our listeners to hear and definitely prompt some thoughts within them.

John: Thank you. I hope that something I said, maybe God uses in some way to encourage somebody, but if anybody’s out there that thinks they wanna give up or they’re tired of trying, I can tell you God has a plan that he will bless you and he will work things out and he has a good plan for you.

You may not know what it’s gonna be. I don’t know that any of us know exactly what God’s plan’s gonna be, but we can know that it’s gonna be good ’cause he promises that.

Carrie: I just wanna say that this episode was so impactful to me personally that I kept chewing on it in the hours and days following the interview.

I was thinking about this combination of spiritual truth and things that we learned from secular counseling, and I was thinking about how. John’s story relates to what we learn in acceptance and commitment therapy, how he accepted his cancer diagnosis, even though obviously it wasn’t something that anyone would want, he accepted This has been ordained by God, and God is going to use this in my life and in the lives of others.

Then he is taking committed actions to move towards his values. He’s living in the moment. These are all different acceptance and commitment therapy principles that are helpful for us spiritually in our relationship with God to remain in the present moment and what he has for us right now in the here and now.

How can I love people today? How can I serve God today? How can I fulfill what he’s asking me to do in the here and now? And how these spiritual practices help us psychologically, because when we’re not super future focused, that oftentimes reduces our anxiety to be more in the present moment. And when we’re not borrowing distress from the past, that reduces a certain level of distress.

Acceptance and commitment therapy would tell people to take the suffering with you, so to speak, and as you’re moving towards your values, so. If you believe that God has called you, for example, to go on a mission trip and you say, oh, but no, I have OCD, I can’t do that. Acceptance and commitment therapy would say, you know, take that OCD with you.

It may be a struggle, but if that’s something that you value, that’s important that God wants you to do, know that you can move in that direction even if you’re continuing to struggle. If you wanna hear more about acceptance and commitment therapy, you can scroll way back to episode 65, where I had Ingrid or on to talk about this.

She has written a book about acceptance and commitment therapy from a Christian worldview. I’m so glad that you tuned in today. If this episode blessed you and impacted you, will you consider sending it to a fellow brother or sister in Christ who can benefit from hearing these encouraging words?

Regardless of whether or not they’re struggling with OCD, I think there are so many people who could benefit from hearing this. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith in OCD is a production of by the well. Counseling opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or by the Well counseling.

This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

216. How Do I Know I’m Saved?

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie dives into why salvation doubts can feel so real for Christians with scrupulosity and how OCD can pull believers into convincing fear-based stories about their faith.

Episode Highlights:

• Why salvation doubts can be common among Christians

• How scrupulosity creates fear-based faith narratives

• The difference between grace-based salvation and work-based thinking

• Spiritual seasons and why feelings of closeness with God change

• Understanding the OCD bubble through Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT)

Episode Summary: 

What if I’m not really saved?

For many Christians, this question can feel incredibly unsettling. If you struggle with scrupulosity or religious OCD, those doubts can become even louder and harder to ignore.

In OCD treatment, we often talk about the obsessional story, which is the way OCD builds a narrative in your mind using bits of truth, imagination, and fear.

Before you realize what is happening, you may find yourself pulled into OCD bubble, where everything feels urgent and emotionally real.

This conversation explores what that process can look like and why it often feels so convincing.

Why Some Christians Question Their Salvation

There are several reasons believers begin questioning their salvation, even when they genuinely love God.

Sometimes it happens because someone was saved at a young age and later wonders if they truly understood what they were doing.

Other times it comes from comparing your faith story to someone else’s.

You might also question your faith during seasons when you do not feel close to God or when you are struggling with ongoing sin.

These experiences are more common than many people realize, and we take a closer look at some of the reasons these doubts surface.

The Role OCD Can Play in Spiritual Doubt

For people dealing with religious OCD, faith is often one of the things they care about most. Because of that, OCD can target those beliefs and turn them into intense mental battles.

You may find yourself replaying thoughts, analyzing past experiences, or searching for certainty about your salvation.

OCD has a way of mixing together facts, fears, and past experiences to create a story that feels believable, even when it leads to unnecessary distress.

Understanding this process can be an important step toward finding peace.

A Different Way to Look at Salvation Doubts

Many Christians have been taught that spiritual life should always feel strong and confident. But the reality is that faith journeys include many different seasons.

There are mountaintop moments where you feel deeply connected to God.

There are also quieter or more difficult seasons where things feel dry or uncertain.

We also look at how scrupulosity and OCD can influence these fears and how understanding the reasoning process behind those thoughts can help you begin moving forward.

Along the way, there are reminders about the nature of salvation and the role of God’s grace in our lives.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

Ephesians 2:8–9

Romans 10:9

Romans 8:15–17

If you have ever wrestled with questions about your salvation or felt trapped in spiritual doubt, this conversation is for you.

Tune in to this episode to explore navigating salvation doubts with faith and wisdom.

Transcript

Today we’re talking about, “How do I know that I’m saved?” And I’ve really struggled to put this episode together because I didn’t want it to be just some kind of giant reassurance-seeking fest for people. However, I know that this is a big question that many Christians with OCD are wrestling with. Even if you don’t have OCD, lots of Christians have some everyday doubts about whether or not they’re saved.

The problem is that if you have a religious form of OCD called scrupulosity, it can take these everyday doubts and blow them up into a giant horror movie in your brain where you’re separated from God forever. And in inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, we talk a lot about the obsessional story and how these doubts don’t just exist in isolation. They draw you into a storyline, and the plot is based on a mixture of fact and fiction. So there’s real emotion that gets laden onto these things. And even though you’re being led into an imaginary worst-case-scenario outcome, you don’t necessarily realize that you’re going into the imagination. You’re crossing over this imaginary bridge into what we call the OCD bubble.

Once you’re in the bubble, it’s very hard to recognize that you’re in the bubble. Everything feels real and scary, and it doesn’t feel quite safe to stay in that place, but it also feels really irresponsible, or it doesn’t feel okay, to leave.

Let’s talk for a moment about why people have doubts about their salvation. So for some people, they doubt their salvation because maybe they were saved really young. Maybe they don’t have a full memory of the experience. Maybe they remember it, but they feel like, you know, there were a lot of pieces spiritually that I just didn’t understand. And to that, I would say, of course there are things that we’re going to understand at a different level when we’re an adult than when we were a child. But did your child self understand it on a child level?

Other people would say, well, I’ve been listening to other Christians, and they have these dramatic testimonies, these extreme conversion experiences. They were using drugs before, and they didn’t care anything about God. They were an atheist. And then God met them somehow, and they knew it was Him, and now they’re not using drugs, and they are fully devoted to Jesus and telling everyone else about Him. And sometimes when you hear drastic and dramatic testimonies like that, it can cause you, if you don’t have one of those, to think, well, did I have a real experience? Am I really a Christian? So I think that’s why some people doubt.

Each person’s experience with the Lord is different in our meeting with Jesus. You can even see that with Jesus’ disciples. There were some that were kind of like, “Hey, come and meet Jesus. Come and see what’s happening.” And then you have, of course, Paul on the road to Damascus, and he has a dramatic conversion experience.

Maybe you don’t have a specific day or time that you can point to in regard to when you decided to follow Jesus. Maybe it was a gradual process. Over time, you slowly started to engage in spiritual practices, and at some point along that line, you made that decision each and every day to get up and to follow Jesus, to be His disciple. And I think people who have that version of their story struggle because they hear other people say, “Well, I know I was saved on June the first in 1985, and that was the day that I gave my life to Christ.” And so someone who has a more gradual conversion story may really struggle, like, is my experience real?

You may doubt your salvation by saying, “You know what? I just don’t feel close to God.” We’ve talked about this on the podcast before, that I do believe feelings are important. I don’t believe that we should just dismiss everything that we feel. We have to find this balance of our feelings do provide some helpful information for us sometimes. And there were certainly emotions that led me to start this podcast, whether those were sadness, deep empathy, and a little bit of anger about maybe easy answers in the Christian community. And all of that was very helpful for me and propelled me to do something positive after having that emotional experience.

So when we talk about, “I don’t feel close to God,” this is somewhat nebulous. Because you think about the other relationships in your life, whether it’s a parent or a spouse or a best friend, there may be times that you feel really close and connected to that person, and then there may be other times where you don’t feel as close and connected, but you know that you love them. You know that you care for them. You know that you wouldn’t want anything negative to happen to them, that you would want to rush to their aid if they needed you. So we can have that sense of love for God even if we don’t feel close to Him right now.

Sometimes people will say as part of their obsessional story, “Well, I don’t feel the same way that I did when I got saved.” I think you could ask a lot of married people, “Do you still feel the same way that you did the day that you got married?” That is a mountaintop, exciting experience, full of love. You’re surrounded by lots of friends and family. It’s a beautiful thing, but we may not feel that same exact way two years later. That doesn’t mean that we don’t love our spouse. It just means we’re in a different season right now, and we have different seasons spiritually.

We have these mountaintop experiences with God. Think about when you are a teenager going to youth camp, if that was part of your experience. Everyone’s so excited about God, and they’re like, “Yes, I totally want to follow Him and live for Him the rest of my life, and I want to tell all my friends about Jesus.” And then slowly that starts to fade as you get back into the real world, and some of that is just normal. So don’t allow OCD to use these types of things as evidence that you’re not saved or that you don’t love God.

We just recently, in January, went through a period of prayer and fasting with our church. I would say that was a recent mountaintop experience for me. It was exciting. We just saw some answered prayer, very profoundly felt close to God, very connected in prayer. We had a lot of corporate gatherings of prayer early in the morning. It was cold, but we went there. It was just a beautiful time.

And then February hit, and even toward the end of January and into February, it was like my family was super sick. Just things were very different going on there, right? It’s a different experience, not feeling maybe as connected or as close to God. We still love God. We’re still participating in spiritual activities. We’re still reading our Bible. We’re still praying. It’s just a harder season because we went through a lot of sickness and didn’t feel good, had some rough weather. It was a rough winter this winter, but that’s okay. Spring is here or coming.

There are also times in your spiritual journey, or I’ve experienced this as well, where you’re going through immense suffering. You’re sad, you’re depressed, you don’t even know if you want to get out of bed. What is the point of all this? Why am I here? And those are the valley experiences that we have spiritually. Those are the desert seasons.

There’s a song that I really love called Desert Song, and it’s been around a while, but it’s really just kind of followed me through different hard seasons of my life. I’ll put that song back on, and the whole idea behind it is I’m going to praise God regardless of the season that’s going on in my life. When things feel really dry and empty and lonely and dark, God is still here. God is still worthy of praise.

You may doubt your salvation if you’re struggling with an ongoing sin. And this is something that we talked about in the confession and repentance episode, so I encourage you to flip back to that one and listen to it. It’s really good. And we talk about how the struggle that you’re going through shows that you are battling with sin and can confirm to yourself that you are a believer, that you are connected to God, because you are actively working toward eradicating that sin out of your life. That struggle means that you’re a work in progress, that God is still working on you and in you, and that you are still partnering with the Holy Spirit in that sanctification process.

The final reason for salvation doubts that I want to talk about is that people have bought into a works-based salvation. They’re depending on what they are doing and determining whether or not that’s good enough for God. And it’s interesting because I’ve talked with many people who have these doubts, and they will say, “Well, yeah, I know that’s not the gospel, but I feel like this.”

So I want to share that all of these things that we’ve talked about are all things that OCD uses as part of the obsessional story to draw you in and cause you to believe something that’s not true. And so it’s helpful for us to know that because if we know that, and we know these potential contributions to the obsessional story, other potential contributions may be people that you know who have walked away from the faith. That may be a huge contribution to some of this. “Well, I thought that they were really dedicated, and they walked away from the faith, and so what does that mean about me?”

Feelings of inadequacy, of feeling bad about yourself, can cause you to feel like, yeah, the Scripture promises and Word are for everyone else. Somehow I’m outside of that. That’s not really for me. This is very common in scrupulosity.

Oftentimes, I’m running into people that have read the Bible, they’ve studied the Scriptures, they’ve been under the teaching. They’ve done their fair share of Googling about their spiritual doubt process. And what we know is that OCD does use specific facts. It uses personal experience. It uses hearsay, the things that we’ve heard about other people. It uses news articles. All of these things are thrown into this obsessional story, and we can write a convincing story and make it sound really believable, and we can put fear in there or anticipation. And that can cause people to feel real emotions.

So that’s why they might say, “I know that this doesn’t make sense, but I also know that it feels real,” and it gets very, very confusing internally, right? That’s what OCD does. Because there’s this blend of fact and fictional elements, it seems like it’s true. It stirs up a lot of emotion, and you get stuck in that fear.

Really, the way out of that is by being able to examine that story differently, recognize the thinking errors that are happening, not to challenge the negative thoughts, but to recognize the reasoning process that got you there in the first place. If you can recognize the obsessional reasoning process that got you there in the first place, then you can work your way backward to untangle that obsessional reasoning process so that you can get out of the OCD bubble.

And this is what inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, teaches you how to do. You learn all of these different pieces. You learn about the reasons for the obsessional doubt, the obsessional story, what going into the bubble is like, and then what are the doorways out of that bubble so that you can get back to what’s actually happening in the here and now.

When we look at salvation at a very basic level, God has a part, and we have a part. God is the main character, the major player in the story. We have a minor part in accepting the gift. Salvation is based on the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. It is not based on what we have done. It’s not based on what we did before we were saved. It’s not based on what we’ve done since we’ve been saved.

Ephesians 2:8 and 9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

If salvation is not based on earning God’s merit, then that means that we don’t need to strive for God’s love and approval. Our part of the equation, that’s very small, is to believe in what Jesus has done for us and to trust in the work of the cross of Christ.

Romans 10:9: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

This can be something that’s really hard for a lot of Christians with OCD to understand and accept. Salvation is not based on you and your behavior. Salvation is based on what God has done for us, and that’s a beautiful thing because if I can’t do anything to earn it, that also means that I’m not going to do something to mess it up.

If I am seeking God on a day-to-day basis, if I am involved and engaged with my faith, then you’re not just going to mysteriously, magically, somehow, maybe kind of walk away someday. That is a fear based in OCD and what OCD is telling you, all kinds of things that you’re going to lose your relationship with God, telling you that you’re going to walk away from the faith. It may tell you that you’re outside of the family of God, that you can’t really truly know if you’re saved. And understand that this OCD story, it comes with a lot of fear dumped on top of it. That fear makes the OCD story feel so real and so believable. But the problem is that it’s not. This is a lie, and you have to be able to identify, how in the world did I get into this reasoning process?

And I understand, as someone who grew up and felt like a lot of my sanctification, this process of becoming more like Christ, I thought this is all up to me and I’ve got to work really hard and I’ve got to check the boxes and I’ve got to do the right thing and I’ve got to be very conscientious. And I did all of that when I was younger and in my twenties. And you know what? It was exhausting.

Not only was it exhausting because there was so much effort that I felt like I was trying to put forth, there really wasn’t joy in my spiritual practices. And what I learned when life hit me on the backside and I went through suffering and came to a different understanding and realization of who God is and my relationship with Him, I recognized that if I can’t save myself, then I also don’t have that ability to do all this effort to make myself more like Christ. That has to be a partnership between me and the Holy Spirit as I am daily surrendering to God’s work in my life, as I am denying myself and taking up my cross every single day.

So I want to tell you that our salvation is not based on feelings, that you may or may not feel close to God right now. That doesn’t affect the truth of the situation, that you are saved based on what Jesus did in dying for you on the cross. You may feel like God isn’t there or God has abandoned you, but I want you to hear that He loves you very much and went all the way to give His Son for us in order to have a relationship with us. If that doesn’t speak volumes to you, I don’t know what will.

I think, unfortunately, we have become so desensitized to this salvation story, and we know all the quote-right answers as Christians. The joke is that the Sunday school answer is always Jesus. Whatever the question is, the Sunday school answer is, “It’s Jesus.” And so we can recite to ourselves, “Well, I know salvation is through grace, and I know Jesus died on the cross for me.” And then there’s this gigantic “but”—I’m emphasizing that word. It’s like, “But I feel…” is usually what comes next, or, “But I have this thought…” to that such-and-such. And you really have to do some work, and I encourage you to do some work, to unravel that thought process, unravel that feeling process, figure out where that story has come from.

And I’ve talked about this before, but oftentimes we’re putting things on God that we have received from other people in our life, or we are putting this perspective of who God is based on maybe some harsh church teachings that you might have experienced, judgmental believers in the church. There are all kinds of different ways that our view of God is formed. Most early and often, it’s our parents and how they respond to us, how they respond to us emotionally, how they respond to us in discipline situations, and then how they speak to us about God. And that certainly affects how we view God.

The last thing that I want to talk with you about is this concept that I’ve been rolling around in my mind that I refer to as spiritual sense data. Now, ICBT tells us that we have a variety of senses that we use in our environment on a normal everyday, day-to-day basis. So we have our five senses, we have our common sense, we have this sense of self, the real person who we really are. We also have internal senses. Those would be things like beliefs, desires, feelings, emotions. And if we are able to tune into all of these senses and trust those senses, that helps you get out of the trap of OCD, get out of that thought spiral.

I really believe that as believers, we have a sense of spiritual sense data if we have the Holy Spirit inside of us, in that Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. This is what Romans 8:15 through 17 says: “For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.” That’s awesome right there. “And if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.”

And that means that we’ve all had some type of experience where our spirit has connected with God’s Spirit. And I would encourage you to really not distrust those experiences that you have. Maybe it’s been a while because OCD has been so loud since you’ve had one of those spiritual experiences. Maybe it’s been a long time ago, but you were out in nature somewhere, or by a beach, or in a worship service, and you really felt the presence of God, or you had some type of spiritual peace or reassurance that God was with you. Maybe it was in a time of deep suffering and you were sorrowfully crying out to God, but God gave you, not all the answers to your problems, but just a sense of presence or a sense of peace.

And understand, I’m saying not all things are about feelings, but if you have these points in your life that I would call anchor points, I would encourage you to tap in and really remember those. Sit with those experiences from a full sensory level. And when you’re able to do that, I think that’s going to help you know that you belong to Christ.

We also know that there is a fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And look, nobody has all of those things all the time. If we were perfect, if we had all the fruit of the Spirit all the time, we must be in heaven. That doesn’t exist on earth. But there are probably some of those things that you can identify. Look, I have become a more loving person since I became a Christian. Due to knowing Christ, I am a more patient person than I would be without Him. There is more kindness flowing out of me than there would be if I didn’t know Jesus. I think you may be able to see certain experiences in your life and say, okay, that’s something, that’s sense data that I can lean into, that shows that I love the Lord.

If you are having spiritual obsessions, the idea that this is something that you value, that OCD attacks, that it attacks your faith because it’s something that’s important to you, and if you’re just constantly wrestling with all of these doubts, I want you to know that there is hope, that there is healing, that I am going to continue to spread these messages that you can receive really great treatment that incorporates your faith, where you don’t feel like you have to either choose therapy or your faith.

If you’re struggling to find a strong Christian counselor in your area, I really encourage you to look into Empowered Mind. This is a course that I have for Christians that’ll teach you ICBT principles from a Christian faith lens. And if that’s something that would be helpful or beneficial to you, you can go to carriebock.com/training to find out more information.

Thank you so much for listening. Please stay tuned with us. Next week, I have an interview with a dear friend, and we’re going to be talking about when the suffering won’t end. He has been living with terminal cancer for seven years, and I think he’s just a wealth of godly wisdom for you. And we’re going to apply it to OCD, and I think you’re going to take a lot out of that episode.

215. Healthy Confession and Repentance With Scrupulosity with Michael Kheir

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie welcomes returning guest Michael Kheir, author of Waging War Against OCD, to discuss forgiveness, repentance, and how Christians with OCD can break free from cycles of fear and guilt in their relationship with God.

Episode Highlight:

  • How scrupulosity twists the meaning of repentance and confession 
  • The difference between Holy Spirit conviction and OCD condemnation 
  • Why obsessive confession often comes from fear rather than faith 
  • How understanding justification vs. sanctification changes the way we view our sin 
  • What the fruit of the Spirit can teach us about recognizing God’s voice
  • How to stop confessing sins that God has already forgiven

Episode Summary:

Why Do I Feel Like I Have to Confess the Same Sin Over and Over?

Many Christians who struggle with scrupulosity deeply desire to honor God. Yet instead of peace, they often find themselves stuck in exhausting cycles of repeated confession, long prayers, and the fear that something may still be wrong between them and God.

In this episode, returning guest Michael Kheir, author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory, joins me for a conversation that many believers quietly wrestle with. If you have ever wondered whether you confessed “correctly” or worried that you might have missed something, this discussion may bring a new perspective.

Does Struggling With Sin Mean My Faith Is Weak?

Some Christians assume that if their faith were strong enough, the battle with sin would disappear.

Yet the apostle Paul described a very real internal struggle in Romans 7, where the desire to do good collided with the reality of human weakness. For someone dealing with OCD, that passage can raise uncomfortable questions.

Is this struggle a sign of failure, or could it actually be evidence that God is at work within you?

How Can I Tell the Difference Between Conviction and OCD Guilt?

For believers with scrupulosity, guilt can feel overwhelming and confusing.

One voice seems urgent, demanding immediate action and repeated confession. Another voice leads toward peace and restoration. Scripture offers important clues about the difference.

In this conversation, Michael shares how he learned to recognize the difference between OCD-driven guilt and the gentle conviction of the Holy Spirit during his own journey with scrupulosity.

Why Do Simple Decisions Suddenly Feel Like Sin?

Scrupulosity has a way of turning everyday choices into spiritual dilemmas.

Small decisions can begin to feel like they carry enormous consequences. A harmless moment can suddenly feel loaded with moral weight. The mind starts searching for hidden mistakes or unintended sins.

When that happens, it can become difficult to trust your own judgment or experience peace in your relationship with God.

Can One Mistake Really Ruin God’s Plan For My Life?

OCD often convinces people that one wrong choice could permanently derail their future or someone else’s.

The mind begins building complicated chains of possibilities where a tiny decision leads to devastating outcomes. But Scripture paints a very different picture of God’s sovereignty and redemption.

What Does Real Repentance Actually Look Like?

For many believers with OCD, repentance can become tangled with shame and fear.

Some people wonder whether they have confessed enough, repented correctly, or truly received forgiveness. Yet Scripture offers a different picture.

Scripture reminds us that when we confess our sins, God is faithful to forgive and cleanse us. He also offers an incredible reassurance that when we do fall short, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ.

Sometimes the hardest step is learning to trust what God has already promised.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

Romans 7:19–25
Romans 8:1
Galatians 5:22–23
1 John 1:9
1 John 2:1
Psalm 103:12
Proverbs 28:13

If this question has ever crossed your mind, hit play on the episode above and listen to the full conversation.

And if you know someone who may be silently struggling with scrupulosity, consider sharing this episode with them today.

Connect with Michael Kheir: wagingwaragainstocd.com

Explore Related Episode:

108. OCD Personal Story with Michael Kheir

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome back, everyone. I am so excited to have Michael Kheir back on the podcast. He is the author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory. You can hear more about Mike’s story back on Episode 184, where he shares about his personal experience with scrupulosity and how he came to write his book to help other Christians who are experiencing similar things.

Mike saw that we were in the scrupulosity series and said, “Hey, I have some things that I’d like to say about this.” So we decided to collaborate on an episode together, which is super fun.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present, abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Welcome back to the show.

Michael: Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me again.

Carrie: Yeah. Today we’re talking about healthy confession and repentance with scrupulosity. This is something that a lot of Christians with OCD really struggle with, so we’re going to get into a variety of different topics—the repetitive praying, the long confessional prayers, and just getting stuck confessing the same types of sin. So I hope that everyone will stay with us for this conversation.

The first thing that I wanted to talk about was this wrestling that all Christians have. We can’t get away from it—between what our flesh wants and what our spirit wants, and how we are in this daily battle with sin. Paul talks about this in Romans 7, which some of you may be familiar with, but I want to read a little bit of this and just get your take on it.

Romans, starting in verse 19: “For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one that does it, but it’s the sin that lives in me. So I discover this law: when I want to do what is good, evil is present with me. For in my inner self I delight in God’s law, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind I myself am serving the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin.”

I went through verse 25 there. What’s your reaction to this passage as you hear it?

Michael: Probably not what you’re expecting, but the first thing that came to mind was kind of an affirmation that we’re God’s child. I heard a sermon once where it was Dr. Tony Evans, who I reference in my book, and he talks about that battle being very real. And he’s like, non-Christians don’t even have that battle, right? They’re flesh, and they go on with their lives, and they’re dead in their sin, and they don’t even see the battles. And I think a lot of people with OCD are very sensitive to this battle, probably more so than most Christians.

Carrie: Sure.

Michael: So I actually see it as an affirmation that we are God’s children. Even though it’s kind of a heavy passage, that’s the first thing I take away from it.

Carrie: I think that’s important for people with scrupulosity to know, because they may see sins that come up in their life, or they may have an ongoing struggle that they’re dealing with—whether it’s an addiction, whether it’s explosive anger. It could be a variety of different things that they’re wrestling with—selfishness, pride. They feel like, “Oh, maybe this sin is somehow showing that I’m not a true believer.” They’re using the exact opposite reasoning process that you just used.

You said, “Hey, I have the wrestling. That means I’m a believer.” Whereas scrupulosity might say, “Oh, you have that wrestling. Maybe you’re not really God’s child.”

Michael: Sure. I would also say—and I’m sure you cover this theme in other episodes—is that OCD attacks what we value most. So if we really value our relationship with God, we most likely have salvation OCD: “Am I really a Christian? Am I really saved?”

And I think that comes back to confession and that we value peace, right? And I kind of want to make a joke that people with confession OCD are probably middle children, right, in the birth order. I’m a middle child, and we’re peacekeepers.

Carrie: Right. Yeah. Everybody just get along.

Michael: Exactly. Everyone get along. Nobody be mad. And I think that’s probably why we end up in this repentance cycle of, “God, I want to make sure I didn’t mess up and displease you.” And it’s because we value being right with God.

Again, I see it as a sign that we’re valuing the right things, even though it’s coming about in a twisted and cruel way. We’re just constantly feeling, “Oh, I need to make sure that I’m right. I need to make sure that I’m not in sin.” All of that is just pointing to the fact that we value our walk with God.

Especially me, as someone with OCD, I would have loved it if people had said that to me in my hardest years. So I’m saying it now. If you’re even listening to this and you’re struggling, it means you’re valuing the right things. It doesn’t mean the opposite.

Carrie: I have met Christians with scrupulosity who feel like this struggle between themselves and sin just shouldn’t exist. And it places this unrealistic expectation on their Christian walk. They’re like, “Well, I just shouldn’t lust anymore,” or “I just shouldn’t drink too much,” or “I just shouldn’t lash out at my kids.”

And I think the fact that Paul wrestled with these things—I find that very comforting. Because the Apostle Paul was a great hero of our faith, and for him to say with this depth, “What a wretched man I am,” but at the same time, “It’s Jesus that saves me from all of this.”

I think that helps people have realistic expectations, especially if they’re more on the perfectionistic side of things. They think, “Well, I should just be able to deal with this and eliminate it from my life,” which we’re powerless to do anyway. That has to be a work between God and the Holy Spirit in our life in the sanctification process.

I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered that at all, but I just wanted to speak to that.

Michael: You just touched on it. I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding of something about us as Christians. Without going into too much detail, there’s justification and sanctification. Justification is what happens the moment we accept Christ as our Savior. We are washed clean, and when God looks at us, He sees the perfection of Christ.

Then there’s sanctification, which is we are now becoming who we really are. Meaning we are now children of God, and we are perfect in God’s sight. But we still have a flesh, right? That’s our spirit, but our flesh is still there. I still have all the sin-bents I had before I accepted Christ.

Over time those will go away. There’s an example in the Bible where they say the wives were sanctifying their unbelieving husbands. It was sort of a picture of the fact that they were living out the Christian life, and it was rubbing off on their husbands.

I think that’s what it’s saying for us too. It’s even more powerful because Christ is in us. We have all the power that Christ gives us spiritually, and it’s to be used to fight the flesh. There’s really no contradiction there. It’s more that we are two different parts, and we need to see those two parts differently.

I can be perfect in Christ spiritually, and we will fight against the flesh—the temptations, the greed, the envy, the lust, the laziness—everything that we struggled with before. We’re still going to struggle with it. The Holy Spirit will slowly change that.

Carrie: Yeah. I think a lot of people may be listening to this saying, “How do I get out of this behavior?” And what you’re really pointing to is that this is an identity piece. Like when I understand that I’ve been justified in Jesus and that when God looks at me, He doesn’t see all of my mistakes and all of my mess-ups and all the times that I’ve turned my back on Him or hurt other people—He sees the blood of Jesus. That’s huge.

Michael: Yeah. I don’t know if I put it in my book, but I really focus on this. I think one of the hardest things to do as someone with OCD in Christianity is believe that God is as good as He says He is.

Because what you just said—a lot of us know it in our brains, but living it out in everyday life is the hard part. It’s getting it to our heart where my heart actually believes God does not see my sin. I am perfect in His eyes, and I can live as if that is a reality, because it is a reality.

I think a lot of the time we hear it, we acknowledge it, and then we’re like, “Yeah, but…” and we just go back to the cycle of guilt and condemnation instead of really allowing it to soak in. And I think maybe just praying and asking God to help that soak into our heart is a good place to go if you’re overwhelmingly going toward the OCD and condemnation cycles.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s huge.

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Christian Faith and OCD Ep 215

Carrie: Welcome back, everyone. I am so excited to have Michael Care back on the podcast. He is the author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory. You can hear more about Mike’s story back on Episode 184, where he shares about his personal experience with scrupulosity and how he came to write his book to help other Christians who are experiencing similar things.

Mike saw that we were in the scrupulosity series and said, “Hey, I have some things that I’d like to say about this.” So we decided to collaborate on an episode together, which is super fun.

Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Welcome back to the show.

Michael: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me again.

Carrie: Today we’re talking about healthy confession and repentance with scrupulosity. This is something that a lot of Christians with OCD really struggle with, so we’re going to get into a variety of different topics: the repetitive praying, the long confessional prayers, and just getting stuck confessing the same types of sin.

So I hope that everyone will stay with us for this conversation. The first thing that I wanted to talk about was this wrestling that all Christians have. We can’t get away from it, between what our flesh wants and what our spirit wants, and how we are in this daily battle with sin. Paul talks about this in Romans 7, some of you may be familiar with, but I want to read a little bit of this and just get your take on this.

Romans, starting in verse 19: “For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now, if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one that does it, but it’s the sin that lives in me. So I discover this law: when I want to do what is good, evil is present with me. For in my inner self, I delight in God’s law, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I myself am serving the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.”

I went through verse 25 there. What’s your reaction to this passage as you hear it?

Michael: Probably not what you’re expecting, but the first thing that came to mind was kind of an affirmation that we’re God’s child. I heard a sermon once where it was Dr. Tony Evans, who I referenced in my book, and he talks about that battle is very real. And he is like, non-Christians don’t even have that battle, right? They’re flesh, and they go on with their lives, and they’re dead in their sin, and they don’t even see the battles. And I think a lot of people with OCD are very sensitive to this battle, probably more so than most Christians.

Carrie: Sure.

Michael: So I actually see it as an affirmation that we are God’s children, even though it’s kind of a heavy passage. That’s the first thing I take away from it.

Carrie: I think that’s important for people with scrupulosity to know, because they may see sins that come up in their life, or they may have an ongoing struggle that they’re dealing with, whether it’s an addiction or whether it’s explosive anger. It could be a variety of different things that they’re wrestling with: selfishness, pride. They feel like, “Oh, maybe this sin is somehow showing that I’m not a true believer,” like they’re using the exact opposite reasoning process that you just used.

You said, “Hey, I have the wrestling. That means I’m a believer.” Whereas scrupulosity might say, “Oh, you have that wrestling. Maybe you’re not really God’s child.”

Michael: Sure. I would also say, and I’m sure you cover this theme in other episodes, is that OCD attacks what we value most. So if we really value our relationship with God, we most likely have salvation OCD: “Am I really a Christian? Am I really saved?” And I think that comes back to confession and that we value peace, right? And I kind of want to make a joke that people with confession OCD are probably middle children, right, in the birth order. I’m a middle child, and we’re peacekeepers.

Carrie: Right. Everybody just get along.

Michael: Exactly. Everyone get along. Nobody be mad. And I think that is probably why we end up in this repentance cycle of, “God, I want to make sure I didn’t mess up and displease You,” and it’s because we value being right with God. Again, I see it as a sign of we’re valuing the right things, even though it’s coming about in a twisted and cruel way. We’re just constantly feeling, “Oh, I need to make sure that I’m right. I need to make sure that I’m not in sin.” All of that is just pointing to, we value our walk with God. Especially me, as an OCDer, I would love it if people had said that to me in my hardest years, so I’m saying it now. If you’re even listening to this and you’re struggling, it means you’re valuing the right things. It doesn’t mean the opposite.

Carrie: I have met Christians with scrupulosity who feel like this struggle between myself and sin, like that just shouldn’t exist. And it places this unrealistic expectation on their Christian walk. They’re like, “Well, I just shouldn’t lust anymore,” or “I just shouldn’t drink too much,” or “I just shouldn’t lash out at my kids.”

And I think the fact that Paul wrestled with these things I find very comforting, because the Apostle Paul was a great hero of our faith. And for him to say this depth, like, “What a wretched man I am,” but at the same time, it’s Jesus that saves me from all of this. But I think for me, to help people have realistic expectations, especially if they’re more on the perfectionistic side of things, like, “Well, I should just be able to deal with this and eliminate it from my life,” which we’re powerless to do anyway. That has to be a work between God, the Holy Spirit in our life, in the sanctification process. I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered that at all, but I just wanted to speak to that.

Michael: You just touched on it. I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding of something about us as Christians. Without going into too much detail, there’s justification and sanctification. And justification is what happens the moment we accept Christ as our Savior. We are washed clean, and when God looks at us, He sees the perfection of Christ. And then there’s sanctification, which is we are now becoming who we really are, meaning we are now children of God and we are perfect in God’s sight. We still have a flesh, right? That’s our spirit, but our flesh is still, I still have all the sin bents I had before I accepted Christ. And over time those will go away.

And there’s an example in the Bible of, I believe they say the wives were sanctifying their unbelieving husbands, and it was sort of a picture of just the fact that they were living out the Christian life. It was sort of rubbing off on their husbands. I can’t remember exactly where that is, but I think that’s what it’s saying is that it’s even more powerful for us because Christ is in us. We have all the power that Christ gives us spiritually, and it’s to be used to fight the flesh. There’s really no contradiction there. It’s more that we are two different parts, and we need to see those two parts differently. I can be perfect in Christ spiritually, and we will fight against the flesh and the temptations and the greed, the envy, the lust, the laziness, everything that we struggled with before. We’re still going to struggle with. Sure, the Holy Spirit will slowly change that.

Carrie: I think a lot of people may be listening to this saying, “How do I get out of this behavior?” And what you’re really going to is this is an identity piece. Like, when I understand that I’ve been justified in Jesus and that when God looks at me, He doesn’t see all of my mistakes and all of my mess-ups and all the times that I’ve turned my back on Him or that I’ve hurt other people, He sees the blood of Jesus. That’s huge.

Michael: I don’t know if I put it in my book, but I really focus on this. I think one of the hardest things to do as an OCDer with Christianity is believe that God is as good as He says He is, because what you just said, a lot of us know it in our brains, but it’s true in everyday life, and that’s the part that’s hard. It’s getting it to our heart where my heart actually believes God does not see my sin. I am perfect in His eyes, and I can live as if that is a reality, because it is a reality. I think a lot of the time we hear it, we acknowledge it, and then we’re like, “Yeah, but…” We just go back to the cycle of guilt and condemnation instead of really allowing it to soak in. And I think maybe just praying and asking God to help that soak into our heart is a good place to go if you’re overwhelmingly going towards the OCD and the condemnation cycles.

Carrie: That’s huge. When we talk about conviction, I’m curious for you, how did you come to an understanding of the difference between this is Holy Spirit conviction, I need to confess something, because that’s an experience that all Christians should have, versus this is some type of OCD condemnation coming over me and now I feel this intense fear where I have to confess something?

Michael: Sure. First, start with an example of what healthy confession does not look like, because it’s almost comical, and I think I touched on it in our first discussion, where I was on a spring break trip in college and I had to slightly unzip my pants to tuck in my shirt in a crowded setting. And I think there was one girl in this very crowded room who didn’t see it, but I was like, “Oh my gosh, what if there’s a 1% chance she saw that? It’s so inappropriate.” It didn’t really bother me in the moment, but then after the trip, I went home and I would start reading my Bible, and these thoughts of, “How dare you think you can come and spend time with God if you’ve just offended this Christian girl? You need to go apologize.”

I tried to ignore it because in my head, in our minds, I think our conscience recognizes sometimes when something’s an OCD thought and sometimes not. This one, I think I did realize, but I couldn’t shake the fear that I was in the wrong here. So I eventually sent an email to the girl’s boyfriend apologizing, and after I sent it, I immediately realized it was wrong. That is not what God wanted me to do. It was chaotic, confusing, awkward, just not of the fruit of the Spirit.

I actually spend an entire chapter in my book talking about deciphering God’s Spirit, basically, from everything else. So the first passage is in Galatians 5, where Paul’s telling us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And he says, “Against such things there is no law.”

So when I think of a time I wanted to confess, like the one I just described, none of it had the handprint of God on it. The thought was not kind. It was more like, “How dare you come before God if you have this wrong against someone?” It was very unkind. It was very condemning. And then there was the word joy there, and I find it actually applicable to use that word because I have another example in my life. I had a very tumultuous relationship with my dad. I remember listening to a sermon about being made right with other people at some point in my twenties, and normally it would just send me down this condemnation cycle, but there was something that I really did. I messed up with my dad, and I needed to apologize. And in listening to that sermon, the Holy Spirit really did convict me. I actually had joy, like, “You know what? I really should go make this right with my dad. It’s really bad that there’s friction between us, and I’m going to go do it.”

And I went and I apologized. The difference there was that there was no forced compulsion. It wasn’t like, “If you don’t go make it right with your dad, God’s never going to bless you. God’s going to be angry with you and not give you the things you really want.” There was none of that. It was just, “This is what I should do,” and it brought me joy to even think about going to do it, and it was a very gentle voice that was speaking to me. And I think we can almost start training ourselves to realize what the OCD voice is and what God’s voice is. And it’s right there in God’s Word. When God talks to us, it’s full of love, joy, peace, all of those descriptions.

Carrie: I think that’s great. And I love what Romans 8:1 says too, that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. So if you’re experiencing that condemnation, it’s not coming from God.

Michael: Absolutely. I think about it how I relate to my daughter. If I ever want her to apologize to a kid at school for something, it’s always for her benefit. Even indirectly, you need to learn that what you did was maybe mean and you need to apologize, or explaining why somebody should have apologized to her even if they didn’t. It’s never, “Oh man, you royally messed up and you got to go apologize, or they’re not going to play with you ever again.” But even saying, “I won’t accept you in this house anymore,” like that’s almost the severity that we feel sometimes when we’re confessing, when we have OCD. And it’s obviously not God, and it’s nothing we would ever do to our own kids. Probably we would never even do to our own enemies.

Carrie: I shared this in an email that I had sent out, but I don’t think I’ve ever talked about it on the podcast. When my dad would get onto me, it was kind of hard, and part of that was just he was kind of a big, scary dude. Not that he meant to scare me or things like that, sure, but when you’re a little kid and your dad’s kind of like a linebacker, it was a little scary, and I was more sensitive. So I wanted my daughter, in some of these correctional experiences, to know, like, “Hey, I’m correcting you. You did get time-out for this,” and all that, but at the end I would tell her, “This is what was wrong. This is why it happened. This is why you had the discipline,” whatever, “but I just want you to know I still love you.”

I think that puts discipline and correction in general into perspective. If my daughter knows, like, “Hey, Mom is disappointed that I made my own choice and there is consequence, but she still loves me,” that helps her feel more secure. And we can have that security as Christians in our relationship with Christ, that God still loves you regardless of what sin you might be struggling with, past or present.

Michael: Absolutely. I love the word you used, perspective, and I think so much of OCD, not just confession, I think all the problems in scrupulosity, I shouldn’t say all, almost all stem from an incorrect view of God and an incorrect view of how God sees us, right? If we really have this baseline of God is love, literally that’s who He is, and God loves us, and that is the entire relationship we have with Him is based on grace, right? That’s the foundation.

Then when we come to, “I need to apologize for something,” or “I need to confess something,” if it’s done with that being the foundation of the entire relationship, it looks completely different than how OCD brings the compulsion to confess to us. It’s completely opposite. I think the fruit, self-control, is the most eye-opening for me in Galatians 5 because OCD and compulsion are like the opposite of self-control. We’re just almost so compelled to go do something out of fear that we do it. That’s the opposite of how God would speak to us about doing something.

Carrie: I want to talk a little bit about hypervigilance because some people who are struggling with scrupulosity in this issue with confession, it’s almost like they’re on the lookout for sin at any point in time. And there was another author, Tiffany S., she wrote a book about anxiety, but with her anxiety she had almost some of these scrupulous ideas from time to time. And she tells a story about being paralyzed in the toothpaste aisle. “Do I buy the cheaper toothpaste because God wants me to save money, or do I buy this other toothpaste over here because it’s more all-natural and it’s closer to maybe what God would want me to use on my body, et cetera?” And just that paralysis, and almost thinking like if I buy the wrong toothpaste it’s going to be sin, like that would be an example of that people can get stuck with.

And I know you’ve had some paralysis of decision-making and things like that too, God’s-will type stuff. But I find that some people, it’s almost like, okay, there’s an urgency. Obviously we know behind the OCD, I’ve got to figure out if this is a sin, whatever this is, and then if it is, I have to confess it right now. Everything has to come to a full stop. But I wonder how people maybe can be aware of sin without feeling like they’ve got to be so hypervigilant to pounce on it at any point in time.

Michael: Sure. Again, this goes back to our view of God. In my book, I gave an example about how we need to walk in the grace of God, and I give an example of two different bosses. One is cruel, harsh, judgmental, always trying to put their employees down. And I make the proposition, let’s say that that boss came to you and said, “I’m going to give you a 25% raise if you meet all these conditions that I’m giving you now in the next six months.”

Our view of that would be, we would want the raise, obviously, so we would try. But we would constantly be, like you said, hypervigilant. “Oh my gosh, did I mess this up? Did I send an email to a customer and copy him and use a comma where I shouldn’t have and he is going to ding me for it? Or I was five minutes late yesterday, even though I stayed two hours late the night before. Is he going to ding me for that? My tone in the meetings with upper management, was it right?” And we’re just going to constantly obsess on, are we doing it exactly right? And the root of all that is fear because we know our boss is not good and he’s going to look for anything he can basically to withhold the 25% raise or whatever he promised.

And I think that’s what happens when we have OCD. We start viewing God as harsh and our relationship with Him as merit-based. God loves me, again, separate from salvation, like we can even know we’re saved and not struggle with that, but still be like, “God’s not going to bless me. I’m not going to feel close to God. I’m not going to be doing His will unless I read the Bible for the exact amount of time I’m supposed to, pray enough, help the needy enough, do all these things.”

But really, in my book, I go on and I talk about, let’s talk about the opposite boss. Let’s say this boss was kind, gentle. All he did was build up his employees. All he did was want to see them succeed. If they messed up, he would make sure that he got them the tools they needed to not mess up. Then he gave us that same promise. We would be completely relaxed in how we approach trying to meet the requirements to get the raise. We’d be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing. If I mess up, I know he’s so kind, he is going to let me know. There’s not going to be any surprises, right? He is not going to pull the sheet out from under me like, just kidding, you almost made it. You made this one mistake.”

And I think it all comes down to the word grace. We have to understand that God is gracious, and I love that word for OCDers because grace is unmerited favor. It’s favor we don’t deserve, which means it’s favor we can’t do anything to get. And that’s what I love because OCD is always pushing us to go do something to get something, and God is saying, “No, your relationship with Me is based only on Me doing something for you, so stop trying to do to get right with Me. You’re never going to do it. Just walk in My love.”

And I think that’s where it’s so hard for our hearts to believe that, that I always say the hardest thing for an OCD Christian to do is believe that God actually is that good. He is going to keep that promise to love us independent of anything we’ve done.

Carrie: I think the reality is, though, that we’ve been overcomplicating our spirituality for a long time now. You know, look at the Pharisees. It’s like, well, we’ve got to tithe. But then it went into, well, all of a sudden we’ve got to tithe our spices and all these other things. And then Jesus comes along and says, “I don’t really care if you tithe your dill because you’re not treating the poor well, you’re not loving people, you’re not being kind to them. Your heart’s all a mess.” And I think potentially this is kind of like one of the ploys of the enemy to get us off track of, “Hey, be uber concerned over here so that you miss kind of the big picture of what God is trying to do in your life.”

Michael: Absolutely.

Carrie: I know that some people will repeat confessional prayers over the same sin, so I wanted to address that too. Like there’s that sin that haunts somebody. It could have been an abortion they had when they were 17 and now they’re 35. It could be somebody that hurt someone or walked away from a previous marriage and now they’re just still stuck on that thing, and some of that stuff can be really hard to overcome. We’ve talked about this on the podcast before. There is no sin that God can’t forgive. 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sin, that He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Psalm 103:12, “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.” Any hope or encouragement that you have for people who may be stuck in that, confessing the same sin?

Michael: My answer was actually kind of in your question, and it’s, “How far is the east from the west?” I was just reading a blurb about that recently, and the east is infinitely far from the west, right? If you’re going east around the globe, there’s always a part that’s west forever, whereas north and south, there actually is like a North Pole and a South Pole. And I read somewhere somebody wrote that God, in His wisdom, intentionally wrote east from west because they’re infinitely apart. Your sin is no longer there in God’s eyes. It’s gone forever.

It’s almost just every time we feel like we have to confess a past sin, remember that and almost refuse to and be like, “I will not ask forgiveness again because God said He forgave me for this.” Easier said than done.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: But that’s the one thing we can do, is just refuse to give into that and be like, “No, I’m going to believe God.” It was that 1 John 1:9, if we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive, and He does. And I think we have to just stand on that and remind ourselves of that whenever it comes up again, because the condemnation of a past sin is never from God.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: “Therefore now no condemnation for us.” So it’s either coming from our OCD minds or it’s coming from Satan, or it’s coming from somewhere other than God, and we can ignore it because God said in His Word, it’s done.

And another thing I wanted to talk about with confession and repentance is that repentance is really just changing your mind. So if somebody’s struggling with drinking too much on the weekends, just as an example, and they’re like, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t do it,” and then they do it and then they have no intention of not doing it again, that’s not repentance. But if they decide, “You know what? I’m not going to do that again,” that’s what repentance is. So if we’re looking at a divorce or an abortion or a one-time-event sin that we clearly have repented of, we’re not going to do again, those in my mind are so obviously something we don’t need to address again. We don’t need to confess it to God. We don’t need to confess it to other people again. It’s done. It’s forgiven. And that’s the whole point of the gospel, right? God makes us new again.

Carrie: I see what you’re talking about, like repentance for the ongoing sin, because repentance is really about turning in a different direction. It’s saying, “Okay, if every time I’m around these friends, I’m cussing like a sailor, maybe I really don’t need to be spending that amount of time with those friends because it’s leading me away from God, not towards God.” Or if, like you said, if I’m drinking on the weekends and I make a decision, “Okay, God, You’ve convicted me about this. I don’t need to be having this much alcohol,” then I can say, “Hey, let me call another brother or sister and say, ‘Hey, I want you to hold me accountable. I want you to ask me about this or make sure that I’m getting stuff out of my house.’”

Whatever those prevention-from-sin activities are, putting the filters on your computer, on your phone if you struggle with pornography, there are so many different things that we can do. And that doesn’t mean that we’re never going to fall back into that sin again, but at least we are making some efforts or steps or movements in that right direction. It may be, “Hey, I can’t get a handle on this and I need to seek professional help.” And I think that’s certainly on the table as well too.

Michael: I was listening to Mark DeJesus, I don’t know if you’ve heard of him or ever talked to him, and he was talking about how people with OCD, he reaches mostly Christians, and he said a lot of them will start doubting they’re Christians because they have this addiction or repetitive sin. And he did bring up pornography as being a common one. I’m sure there’s other ones that are just repetitive that are hard to break. And he said that is common.

And I just want to bring up, that goes back to Romans 7. The fact that we’re fighting it and those people see it as an addiction or see it as like, “Oh my gosh, I need to break free of this,” that in and of itself is evidence that there’s something working in them against their flesh, which is the Holy Spirit. So it’s encouraging that they’re feeling overwhelmed by not being able to break the habit.

Carrie: I think this is an important point to bring up. Proverbs 28:13 says, “Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.” What I notice is that shame can really get in the way of repentance because if we turn towards shame and we get stuck there, it makes us want to hide instead of actually making us be able to connect with God and actively deal with our sin. We’re just like, “Well, how can I cover up the fact that I have this struggle with pornography and never tell anyone and just maybe say a prayer, ‘Oh God, please take it away from me,’ but I’m not actually willing to look at my heart and things that led me to develop that in the first place or get stuck in that cycle?”

Michael: And I think that’s where seeing our relationship with God out of a foundation of love helps, because there are obviously times where we need to confess things, but if we’re doing it with a believer that we know loves us and wants what’s best for us, and I know it’s hard to find, I’m not just saying that casually. I know it’s very hard to find strong, even lifelong friends where you can entrust those types of things to them. But it’s always in love.

And actually, Mark DeJesus was talking about this, and he goes, a lot of people with OCD even fear the topic of spiritual warfare. It’s just scary to them. And he goes, even that, we need to see it from a relationship foundation of love. God loves us and wants what’s best for us. And when we see spiritual warfare through that light, it changes the whole way we view it. So even something that we’re like, “Oh, this is overwhelming. I don’t know what to do. Satan’s around every corner,” we start spiraling. It’s like, well, if we view our relationship with God as He’s all loving and all capable and He wants what’s best for me and He cares for me and He died for me, He’s obviously going to take care of me as I fight this battle, this spiritual battle. And the same with fleshly battles, right? It’s a relationship of love. I’m not going to lie and say finding someone to trust is easy, but it is definitely something to pray for.

Carrie: Is there anything that you don’t think that we’ve touched on or anything that you further wanted to share?

Michael: I wanted to talk about kind of the lie that we often believe as OCDers about the butterfly effect, and I want to give an example from my book. Well, I actually still do a lot of sports photography, and in college I took a picture at Midnight Madness. It was a college basketball event. They put a picture that I had taken on the front page of the paper, and I remember the jersey that the guy was wearing was all orange. There was a lot of orange in the photo, and I kid you not, my thought process went something like this: “Oh my gosh, what if it wasn’t God’s will that I take pictures at the game? That means it wasn’t God’s will that they’re using the orange ink. What if they ran out of orange ink and somebody had to go get more toner cartridge from the store or from down the hall and they died going to get it? Their blood’s on my hands because I took pictures at the game.” Total ludicrous chaos.

Carrie: OCD could make a really good story.

Michael: Exactly. OCD is very creative. And I feel like sometimes we’ll view sin that way too, right? The decisions we make: “Oh, I committed this one little sin, and now somebody’s life is completely off the rails forever. Or my life is completely off the rails forever.” I remember having thoughts about where should I eat in college. Like there’s all these cafeterias. If I go to this one, what if I open to the wrong person and say the wrong thing and create a situation that derails their life or derails my life? It’s that whole fear is a lie because God is ultimately in control.

And so I wanted to bring that up because I think that is a big theme that OCDers have about sin, is that I’m going to commit this one sin that will just be irreversible for all of time.

Carrie: It’s going to wreck my life, potentially.

Michael: Exactly. And that is the opposite of what God says. God redeems us. He even loved the verse about the locusts that had destroyed the crops in, I think it’s Joel, and He says, “I’ll even restore to you the years that the locusts have eaten.” God can literally change events and life for us to restore us. That’s the whole point of the gospel, is to make us new again.

Carrie: I just encourage people to remember, we’re not that powerful. We’re not that powerful to mess up God’s plans, but OCD will have you convinced the whole world hangs on this one moment in time and making the right choice in that one moment in time.

But I wanted to end on a scripture that I really feel like brings this whole conversation into balance, and it’s 1 John 2:1. I love this so much for OCD and scrupulosity. “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” And so there’s this balance. I think sometimes people fear not taking their sins seriously enough, and for John to say, “Hey, I’m writing this to you so that you don’t sin, but I want you to know if you do, we have Jesus.” I just think that is so beautiful, and hopefully that’s the truth that people can hold onto as they’re listening to this today.

Michael: Absolutely. I don’t have any concern that Christians with OCD are not taking their sins seriously enough. I think it’s always the other way around. You just reminded me of a really cool story. I remember where somebody was explaining what it looks like when somebody doesn’t take their sin seriously, right? And I think it was about, it might’ve been in a sermon, somebody was talking about somebody that had, I think, assaulted a woman, and they were having to get counseling for it. And in the counseling there was no remorse. It was almost like, “I’m just here because I have to be here. Let’s just get through this so we can move on.” There was no understanding of what they had done wrong. There was really no conscience. And that person said that was really freeing for me to see that because I know that’s not how I view my sin.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: It’s kind of like if you see it the way it’s not supposed to be done, you’ll know that the way we view sin as OCDers is not at all the wrong way. We are definitely viewing it with the weight that it deserves, if that makes sense, and even too much weight.

Carrie: Thank you so much for coming back and hanging out on the podcast with us today.

Michael: Thank you for having me.

214. Reading the Bible Differently for Scrupulosity

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores how scrupulosity can quietly turn Scripture into fear and pressure while offering a more peaceful, grace-filled way to reconnect with God’s Word.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why Scripture can feel triggering when you struggle with scrupulosity
  • How shame cycles form around Bible avoidance
  • Simple ways to begin reading again without pressure
  • Why understanding everything isn’t required for spiritual growth
  • How rigid beliefs about Bible reading can fuel OCD
  • Practical ways to reconnect with God’s Word in peace

Episode Summary:

Is Reading the Bible Making Your Scrupulosity Worse?

There’s something I’ve been wanting to talk about in this scrupulosity series because it comes up more often than people realize.

What if reading the Bible doesn’t feel comforting to you right now?

What if, instead of peace, you feel anxiety? Instead of connection, you feel fear? Instead of hope, you feel shame?

I have talked to so many Christians who quietly struggle with this. They love God. They want to grow. They believe Scripture is true. And yet when they open their Bible, something tightens inside.

Then the guilt follows.

“I should want to read this.”
“What kind of Christian feels this way?”
“Is something wrong with my faith?”

If that’s you, I want to gently reassure you: struggling to read the Bible because of scrupulosity does not mean you don’t love God. It may simply mean OCD has attached itself to something sacred.

And that changes how we need to approach it.

What If I’ve Started Avoiding the Bible?

Avoidance makes sense when something feels threatening. OCD is trying to protect you from distress, even if it ends up keeping you stuck in the long run.

But what if the solution isn’t forcing yourself into a stricter routine?

Sometimes scrupulosity quietly adds rules that God never required.

You might believe:

  • I have to read first thing in the morning.
  • I have to read a certain number of chapters.
  • I have to understand everything.
  • I have to get a life-changing application every single time.

Over time, Bible reading becomes performance instead of relationship.

Second Timothy 3 tells us that all Scripture is breathed out by God. That language is intimate. It speaks of closeness, not condemnation.

What if instead of asking, “Am I doing this right?” you asked, “How can I connect with God in this moment?”

What if you started with one verse about His love and sat there without pressure?

Sometimes healing begins with smaller steps than we expect.

Could I Be Reading Through the Wrong Lens?

Often the issue isn’t the Bible itself.

It’s the lens we’re reading through.

If you’ve been hurt by authority figures, church experiences, or even family dynamics, it’s very easy to project that onto God. We can begin to brace for correction, rejection, or punishment instead of expecting love.

First John 4:16 tells us that God is love. Romans 8 reminds us that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

But scrupulosity can make those truths feel distant.

In this episode, I share a story about encouraging someone to read a children’s Bible. That might sound unusual at first, but sometimes we need to step back and rediscover the redemptive story of Scripture without the heavy analytical lens.

Jesus said we must receive the kingdom like a child. Children approach with curiosity and trust. They don’t feel pressure to understand everything before they come close.

What if that posture could change how you approach God’s Word?

Is There a Gentler Way to Engage With Scripture?

I truly believe healing and faith can coexist.

You can deeply love Jesus and still need mental health tools. You can trust the authority of Scripture and recognize that OCD has distorted how you’re interacting with it.

If the Bible has started to feel heavy instead of life-giving, I want you to know this: God is not disappointed in you. He is not intimidated by your anxiety. He is not waiting to catch you doing it wrong.

He is inviting you into relationship.

If this resonates with you, I encourage you to listen to the full episode. There is hope for a different experience with Scripture.

Explore Related Episode:

141. Is OCD Keeping You From Reading the Bible?
Transcript

Hello and welcome back to the Scrupulosity series. Today we’re talking about reading the Bible differently for scrupulosity.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Keri Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

I did an episode before, 141, on “Is OCD Keeping You from Reading the Bible?” If you want more information, you may want to go back and listen to that episode as well. Someone in our recent survey said that they had a fear of reading the Bible, and if you are listening to this, I want you to know that you are not alone because so many Christians with OCD deal with this exact same thing.

And maybe you’ve never heard that before because you might not have met someone else who has the same struggle. Now, this can happen for a variety of different reasons. Sometimes certain words can be a trigger, whether that’s the devil, the Holy Spirit, repentance—I could go on and on. I’m sure there are many different trigger words.

Sometimes certain Scripture passages can be very triggering, such as the “Lord, Lord” passage where Jesus said, “Depart from me. I never knew you.” You may feel this guilt and shame because you want to read the Bible, but reading it just seems too overwhelming or anxiety-producing. So then you end up avoiding it, and it just causes this whole shame cycle.

So what should you do if you’ve been avoiding reading the Bible because it’s become too triggering for your scrupulosity? The first thing I want to say is to start small. Take a few Scriptures, maybe from Episode 211 on embracing God’s love. We have those references in the show notes for you. You can write those Scriptures on an index card, start with one or two, and just read them really slowly.

Maybe even put your name in the Scripture verse somewhere. God does not want you to be terrified for you to read His love letter to you. This is a love letter. It’s a story about God’s love for us, about redemption, and God doesn’t want us to live in so much fear that we can’t even pick up the Bible and read what He has to say to us.

Thinking about my own child, if there’s something that I want her to know or that I want to communicate to her, I want her to be able to receive that information in love. Even if it’s hard, even if it’s a discipline conversation, I want her to still have the understanding and knowledge that I love her, and I don’t want her to be afraid to come to me about anything.

Maybe a small thing that you can do to enter back into Bible reading, if you’ve been avoiding it, is to read a children’s Bible. Yes, even if you’re all grown up. I told this story in my email list. My email subscribers typically hear things from me first, so if you want to get on our email list, just go to kerybach.com and scroll to the bottom of that homepage to sign up for the newsletter.

I had a thought. I was working with a client who was dealing with some intense scrupulosity, just a negative viewpoint of God—God being harsh, God not being loving, God out to get this individual. I was reading The Jesus Storybook Bible to my daughter, and I thought, this is a great Bible because it’s all about God’s love and redemptive story and how Jesus is on every page of the Bible, how it shows Jesus’ story of redemption through the Old Testament and then joins it into the New Testament.

It’s just a wonderful children’s Bible if you have kids or if you have scrupulosity. So I thought maybe I’ll mail this to my client that I was seeing virtually. And then my initial thought was, wow, that’s a really crazy idea. Like, you’re going to mail a grown man a children’s Bible? What is wrong with you? It’s not going to land. It’s not going to go well.

The next thing I knew, I had the thought again, like, oh, maybe I should give him this Bible. And I wrestled with that a little bit, but not as much. I thought, well, maybe that would be a good idea. Maybe this is something that could shift someone’s belief about God to be in a more positive, biblical headspace.

The third time I thought about it, I was praying and just really felt this tug internally from the Holy Spirit that I needed to do this. I mailed the Bible. I said, “Hey, I’m sending you a book that might be helpful to you. Just kind of be open to it, if you will.” It turned out really, really well. This individual was receptive to it, and it was just a great opportunity to read the Bible differently than this individual was used to reading it.

We have our own lenses a lot of times that we take and view the Bible through—our own experiences, past teachings that we’ve heard from other pastors or spiritual leaders, even things that you may have picked up online too. People are consuming so much content nowadays that they didn’t use to 50 or 100 years ago. We didn’t have access to the massive amount of information that we have right now.

In Mark 10:14, Jesus becomes indignant with the disciples and says, “Let the children come to me and do not hinder them, for such belong the kingdom of God. I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

We want to be able to come to God with a sense of wonder, of curiosity, of not feeling like we have to have it all figured out. Do you ever notice that children aren’t afraid to ask questions? They’ll just ask you, “Why is this like this?” or “What is that thing over there?” Why? Because they want to know.

They have this sense of true wonder and trying to understand, but yet at the same time, there’s no pressure to have to know everything. And if we could just come to God like that, being open and being willing to read His Word and to hear what He has to say to us, I think we all could benefit from that.

I would encourage you to sit down in a place of quiet and really examine potential rigid beliefs that you might have about Bible reading. These are some examples that I came up with, but there probably are more.

One: I have to read a certain amount or in a certain way.
Two: I have to read at a certain time of day.

That could be a very rigid belief if you think, well, I have to read the Bible first thing in the morning. What happens if you have a really rough night of sleep and you aren’t able to read your Bible? You rush out the door and you’re just laden with all of this guilt and shame. I completely messed up my Bible reading for the day.

Well, no. There are still plenty of other hours in the day that you could read your Bible. You could put your Bible on in the car on the way to work. You could read your Bible on your lunch break. You could read your Bible before you go to bed. You don’t have to set up this rigid structure that sets you up for failure.

Another one that I thought of—I know I had fallen into this for many years—is, I have to get something out of it. Like I have to have some type of application step from reading the Bible.

Now that I’m farther along in my Christian walk, one thing I’ve realized about Bible reading is that, for me, it’s a way to connect with God. That connection piece is very important. And God may say something to me while I’m reading His Word, like, oh, I could be more loving to my spouse in this situation. Maybe I need to watch my tongue and make sure that my words are edifying to other people.

There are many different things that I might be able to apply from the Bible. But sometimes it’s just a matter of getting that Word in you. And the more that you put that Word in you, the more that it will come out of you in the best possible way. The Word of God is transformative. As we put that in, it changes us. As we interact with the Word, God brings Scripture to mind when we most need it, if we take that time to put it in there.

So it’s not always about this immediate three-step process of changing my life because I read these chapters of the Bible. Use it as a connection point, not as a very rigid “I have to do something after I read this.”

Maybe one of your rigid beliefs is about feeling like you’ve got to read it like a textbook and dissect it and understand everything and read all the commentaries. Maybe it’s looking at all the footnotes, trying to really grapple with it and make sure that you’re getting all the knowledge you possibly can. That is probably going to lead you to burnout if you do that all the time.

Now, there may be a time and a place. I am taking a very long time to go through an Isaiah Bible study that I have right now because it’s one of those deeper-dive type studies where you’re looking at parallel passages, a little bit of the meaning of words, and recognizing some repetition.

That’s the reason that it’s taking me a while to get through it. I will pick it up and then I’ll put it down and read something else for a little while. I’ll pick up Isaiah again, go through some of those Bible studies, and then put it back down. It helps to have a little bit of time away so that I can see more clearly when I come back to it.

I don’t think there’s a right or a wrong way to do that. If somebody decided they wanted to dive in and go straight through it, that’s fine. But I find, for me, it’s helpful to take a break from that and go read some of the Gospels or something in the New Testament, and then come back and do this deeper dive.

Who knows? I may be on and off in Isaiah for another year. I have no idea. It’s been really good for me, though, to have some time to dig in a little bit deeper without being rigid about it.

Another belief that you might need to let go of is that you have to understand everything. It’s the Holy Spirit who helps us interpret the Bible and understand what it means. But there are going to be times where you wrestle and you’re not really sure what something means, and we have to be okay with that.

We may come to understand it later. We may do some deeper research. We may just let it go and say, “God, this Scripture passage is really hard, and I don’t understand it.” We don’t have to immediately come to some type of resolution or understanding for everything that we read in the Bible.

We learn and grow. We hear different teachings. We pray about it, and the Holy Spirit reveals things to us. It’s a process. It’s not something that you have to feel like you have to rush through and know it all.

So let’s look at why we even read the Bible in the first place. If we have fear tied up around reading the Bible, why are we engaging in this practice?

Well, we’re spending time with God. Like I said, that’s His love letter to us. We’re trying to make a connection. It’s like when you spend time with your spouse or a close friend. All kinds of things can happen. Sometimes you feel really connected. You have deep conversations. You feel really loved.

Other times, you’re just sitting there like two blobs on the couch, each of you on your own phone. But even then, the showing up is important.

Sometimes in our relationship with God, we may feel like, okay, I’m here. I’m reading. I don’t even really know what’s happening with me. I don’t know if I’m necessarily understanding this or getting anything out of it. But the important part is that you’re showing up, that you’re putting in the spiritual reps to get to know God better. And there’s really no better way to do that than by opening up the Bible and studying it for yourself.

I would say don’t always rely on everyone else to teach you about the Bible. There comes a point in time where you may need to put some of the commentaries down or the Bible studies aside and literally just read the Word of God.

We read the Bible not just to spend time with God, but to get to know Him—His character. What does the Bible say about Him? What can I learn from the experiences of people in the Bible?

The Bible teaches us how to live and how to be in relationship with other people. That’s so important because some of us don’t know how to be in relationship with others. We don’t know how to have healthy conflict. We don’t know how to set a boundary. We don’t know how to truly love someone sacrificially.

We’re all in this process, trying to figure it out in community. Hopefully you’re in some type of Christian community or church where other people can come alongside you and where you can support each other on this journey. I believe that’s an important piece of the puzzle as well.

It’s not just about you having an individual relationship with God. It’s about walking with God in community. That is very biblical.

Second Timothy 3:16–17 states, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

 Timothy three, 16 and 17 states, all scripture is breathed out by God. Well love that part. Breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reprove, for correction.

For training in righteousness. What? That the man of God may be complete equipped for every good work. So we are receiving the words of God for teaching correction so that we can be righteous, we can be equipped for everything that God has called us to do. It’s gonna be really hard to be equipped for all that God has called you to do if you’re not spending time with him and if you’re not getting to know him.

Now, let’s say that you’re not avoiding reading the Bible. Maybe you’re not afraid like this person who is taking the survey, but maybe you feel like, you know what? I do have some of these rigid beliefs about reading the Bible. Carrie, and I am in an OCD rut. I feel like I’ve gotta do it a certain way. It feels super uncomfortable if I don’t follow this exact pattern of reading the Bible that I have.

This is where I, I’m gonna encourage you to be a little uncomfortable and switch it up a tad. Okay, so I’m back on episode 1 54. We had Jennifer Tucker on to talk with us about Lectio Divina, which is a specific way of reading. Scripture is very, uh, slow meditative. You know, you read through the scripture passage different times.

She also has a great book on prayers. We have another podcast episode on that hearts out to Jennifer Tucker. We love her. But you may want to listen to the Bible or read it out loud just to give you a different perspective or a different way of reading the Bible. I listened to a Bible in a year podcast for a little period, and the people had really great your English accent, so that was fun as well.

But you may find something like that where people are reading through the Bible, maybe reading a different version of the Bible than you’re used to. Sometimes it can be helpful to compare versions. Especially when we get tripped up on certain words, because different translations may have different word meanings that come out, and if you’re really stuck on, oh wow, I’m not really sure what that exactly is saying.

Sometimes reading it in a different translation can help you. There are word for word translations and there are phrase translations. You can look all of that good stuff up on the internet. Now, there is a soap way of reading the Bible. I found this interesting because as a therapist you’re taught there is a soap way to write notes.

SOAP is an acronym. Okay? It stands for Scripture Observation, application, and Prayer. Scripture can prompt us to pray for specific things for ourself, for others, so the SOAP method is another avenue for you. If you want read through the Bible in chronological order, there are chronological Bibles. Steve and I did that in 2024 with our church.

It was a very interesting experience and definitely brought out some things that we hadn’t necessarily seen before or thought of like. Oh, oftentimes we don’t think of, job, for example, was actually a very early book in the Bible, even though it’s in the middle, kind of in the wisdom literature section.

They also did a great job kind of incorporating the Psalms with different historical events that were happening in the Old Testament. So. There’s little different pieces that you can pick up from reading the Bible differently, and so you may have to shake things up a little bit to work through that rut or feeling like, I’ve gotta do it this way.

And these are all healthy ways of reading the Bible. We’re not telling you to do something really strange or crazy, just trying to help you have a different perspective so that you can connect with God maybe in a different way that you haven’t before. Do you have other thoughts or questions on reading the Bible?

And you have Scrupulosity love to hear from you. You can reach me at cherry bach com. We have a main contact form and I would love to hear from you later in this series. We’re gonna do a question and answer episode for different topics or questions that came up from our listeners. Some survey comments that we got, so we would love to hear your questions and hopefully be able to answer some of those to the best of our ability.

Alright, thanks so much for listening. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

213. Pt 2: Why Scrupulosity is so Complicated and Hard to Treat

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie continues exploring why scrupulosity can feel so layered and difficult to untangle. She examines the hidden fears, spiritual experiences, and beliefs about God that may be quietly fueling the struggle.

Episode Highlights:

  • How scrupulosity often attaches itself to other OCD themes
  • What it means to identify the “primary obsessional doubt” beneath the surface
  • Why theology and personal history both matter in recovery
  • How early relationships can shape your view of God
  • Why healing may require examining both belief systems and identity
  • What it looks like to move from an identity rooted in fear to one rooted in being loved

Episode Summary:

Why Is It So Hard to Trust a Therapist When You Have Scrupulosity?

Welcome back, OCD Warriors.

In Part One, we talked about the lack of awareness in church spaces, beliefs about mental health and medication, and how Christians sometimes struggle with thoughts and feelings. Today, I want to go deeper.

One of the most complicated layers of scrupulosity is this: distrust.

Many Christians struggling with OCD come to me after trying to get help from someone who simply did not understand what they were going through. Sometimes the first person they talk to does not have the clinical training to treat OCD well. Other times, they sit across from a therapist who does not share their faith and cannot grasp why certain fears feel so spiritually intense.

That experience lingers.

It makes you cautious. It makes you hesitant to try again. And sometimes it makes you question whether real help even exists.

Why Does Getting Help for Scrupulosity Feel So Complicated?

Scrupulosity lives in a space where faith and clinical treatment intersect.

Because the fears sound spiritual, it makes sense to seek spiritual help first. But OCD follows a specific reasoning pattern, and without understanding that process, reassurance can unintentionally make things worse.

On the other hand, working with someone who does not understand why certain fears feel eternal can feel just as unsettling.

That tension alone can delay healing.

Why Does Scrupulosity Rarely Show Up Alone

Another layer that makes this theme so complex is that it often attaches itself to other OCD struggles.

Relationship doubts can turn into fears about being outside of God’s will. Intrusive thoughts can morph into questions about salvation. Contamination fears can become spiritualized.

Now the anxiety feels heavier. Not just uncomfortable, but ultimate.

And if we only focus on the surface issue, we may never get to the deeper fear underneath.

What Is Beneath the Surface of the Fear?

When we slow down enough, there is often something more vulnerable at the core.

Not just “Am I right?”
But “Am I still loved?”
Not just “Did I sin?”
But “Am I disconnected from God?”

Until that layer is acknowledged, treatment can feel like circling the same arguments again and again.

How Do My Experiences Shape My View of God?

For some people, scrupulosity is intertwined with early experiences of authority, correction, or fear.

If you grew up feeling constantly criticized, it can subtly shape how you imagine God responding to you. If you learned that love was conditional, that belief can follow you into your spiritual life.

Sometimes the nervous system is reacting to old patterns, not to God Himself.

Healing may require looking gently at where those patterns began.

What Happens When My Identity Begins to Shift?

If you have long believed you are disappointing to God, stepping into the identity of beloved child can feel unfamiliar at first.

New beliefs require a new identity. And even good change can feel destabilizing.

Scrupulosity is layered for a reason. It is not simply a lack of faith or effort.

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, we continue unpacking why this theme can be especially complicated to treat and what that means for your healing journey.

If this resonates, I invite you to listen and lean in. 💛

Explore Related Episode

141. Is OCD Keeping You From Reading the Bible?
154: Using Christian Meditation to Go Deeper with God, an interview with Jennifer Tucker
Transcript

Welcome back, OCD Warriors, to part two of Why Is Scrupulosity So Complicated and Hard to Treat? Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present, abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

I got really long-winded, so we did part one last week, where I went over three points in greater detail. I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode if you haven’t already. As a quick review, the first three points were: a lack of awareness in the church or biblical counseling circles, which leads to a delay in treatment; two, all kinds of beliefs about mental health and medication in the church; and number three, the Christian church has an unhealthy relationship at times with thoughts and feelings. So let’s dive right into the next point.

Number four, why scrupulosity is so complicated and hard to treat, is a severe distrust of non-Christian providers, as I spoke about in terms of the biblical counseling examples. Unfortunately, Christians who are struggling with OCD, often the first person they seek help from lacks the necessary skills and experience to truly be able to help them. I find that really sad, but that’s the truth.

Now, some people don’t trust non-Christian providers based on past negative experiences, and I’ve heard all of the stories from you guys about trying to seek help and really just feeling like the person just didn’t get it. I mean, I think as clients—I’m someone who’s the therapist, but I’ve been to several different therapists—sometimes you sit down with a therapist and you can just exhale. You’re like, ah. They get it. They understand what I’m dealing with. They’re able to make empathetic reflections and say, yeah, that makes sense to me, and here’s why. It seems like you’re feeling this way, and there’s this sense of relief that comes over you, like, okay, this person is gelling. But then there are other times where you meet with therapists and you’re like, this person just has no idea what I am going through right now. They may have difficulty empathizing with your experience.

This can be true if someone doesn’t believe in God or value religious experience. They may have a really hard time empathizing that potential blasphemy or potential sin is really distressing to you, or this idea that you might be outside of God’s will or that you might not go to heaven. It can be just hard for them to get that. Maybe at the same time, there have been negative experiences where people have done non-religiously sensitive exposures, haven’t really worked with a pastor or spiritual leader, as IOCDF really recommends and proposes, just making sure that the clinician is working with the church, especially if they’re unfamiliar. Sometimes those things have happened.

Also, I’ve heard stories about therapists maybe making fun of hell, for example, trying to kind of make things more lighthearted or get the client to not take it so seriously. However, of course, this is going to be very distressing to somebody with scrupulosity who believes hell is a real place.

I just want to say a note here about, okay, in an ideal world, you would be able to find a Christian who has good clinical knowledge about OCD and is able to treat you. What if you have to go into maybe an intensive outpatient treatment program, a residential treatment program? What if you really, really need to use your insurance? You’re financially limited in the providers that you can see. Maybe there aren’t a whole lot of people who take insurance that are treating OCD. I would say, I think a lot of times people fear being led astray, but typically those people that fear that are pretty strong and grounded in what they actually believe. And I would say, don’t underestimate God’s ability to use nonbelievers.

What I mean by that is you look at this whole situation with Moses and Pharaoh, for example. Ultimately, God used Pharaoh and the Egyptian people, who were not following Him, in order to bless the people of Israel. They essentially got all of this gold and other things that they gave them for their journey, let them release them from slavery in the end, of course, after all the plagues and all that. This is shown through Scripture, even God using other nations to discipline Israel. So don’t underestimate the ability for God to use nonbelievers. If you need treatment and you need help, if you find a really good clinician, they’re going to be somebody that wants to work with you from your particular faith experience and your particular belief systems.

Now, people may think that it’s easier for me because I’m a Christian who works with Christians. Newsflash: it’s not. I still have to do this work myself because there are so many different denominations and streams of Christianity. I have to ask a lot of questions often to find out where people are coming from, and people don’t always hold the same beliefs or practices that I do. And so I’m really looking at where are they coming from, how are their symptoms affecting them, and how maybe their beliefs are intertwined. The OCD is intertwined with the particular belief system, and understanding the belief system and the practices, of course, helps.

I can tell you just from personal experience that working with somebody who’s Catholic versus somebody who’s in the Orthodox church versus somebody who’s a Mennonite versus somebody who’s in a charismatic church—their beliefs and practices may be very different, and that’s okay. Regardless of where you’re coming from, you can still recover in your OCD journey. You don’t have to completely change denominations or anything of that nature.

Number five, scrupulosity often does not exist by itself but becomes an offshoot of other OCD themes. It’s pretty rare that I find somebody who is only dealing with scrupulosity. Typically, they have had a history of other OCD themes, or they’re starting with one OCD theme, and then scrupulosity interferes and almost adds this whole other layer on top of the theme.

So even if someone has, for example, themes about relationships—should I be with this person or not?—then that can go into, well, if I marry this person, then I’m somehow messing up God’s will for my life if it wasn’t meant for us to be together. It could be a situation where I have some type of contamination OCD, but then that gets blended in with, it’s a sin to be contaminated, or I’m unclean in some type of way because of my sin. And so then I’m doing some type of hand-washing rituals because of certain thoughts I’m having.

So I’ve seen this come up quite a bit. Any type of sexual themes also ends up feeding scrupulosity. What kind of Christian am I if I have these thoughts? Maybe that means this about my faith. I don’t really love God because I’m having these types of intrusions or I’m having sexual intrusions. And then, like I said before, confusing that temptation for sin. So scrupulosity getting combined with other forms of OCD creates these extra layers to deal with, right?

So we’re not really at the root of the issue sometimes when we’re just dealing with the scrupulosity if it is connected to another theme. So it may be helpful to look at what someone was obsessing with before the scrupulosity came along and latched onto the top of it. Even something like I gave the example before about the denominations. It’s like, are we really at what ICBT would call the primary obsessional doubt? You can get caught up in the weeds a lot in scrupulosity, which makes it super hard on the treatment end.

So for the example that I gave earlier about which denomination to follow, is that really the primary obsessional doubt? Or is the primary obsessional doubt at a deeper layer, such as, what if I offend God, or what if I make the wrong decision and I’m outside of what God wants me to do? People can spend a lot of time in therapy hashing out these ideas or ruminating about, well, this denomination says this and that denomination says that. You can get super in the weeds about Calvinism versus communionism and these other things that may be really bothering someone, but then you’re never actually getting down to the root of what is actually scaring them.

What are you actually concerned about? And typically what I’ve seen is there’s some type of worry or doubt about being disconnected from God in some way, shape, or form. Whether that’s present disconnection from God—I’m going to be sinning and God’s going to be displeased with me—or whether it’s future disconnection from God in terms of I’m not going to be saved and I’m not going to be going to heaven. You’re not going to really be able to deal with the issue if you can’t get down to the primary obsessional doubt in terms of ICBT or some type of core fear that you’re experiencing.

Oftentimes, it’s really hard for people to go there because it’s very scary. It feels very vulnerable, and it’s hard to even maybe know in your own mind, what am I really doubting in this situation? If you do get down to that point—this fear of disconnection from God or fear of punishment or being unsafe, somehow missing something, and then if I miss it, I’m somehow going to be displeasing or rejected—when you get there to that vulnerable, scary place, then you can be able to recognize the obsessional reasoning process, the arguments that OCD is using, and get to what your alternative narrative needs to be.

Now, when you hit that primary obsessional doubt and, in essence, this core thing that you’re afraid of, then we get to point number seven, where treating scrupulosity requires that you take a hard look at your theology and where it came from. We get all kinds of ideas about God, whether that was from a pastor you grew up with who was hellfire and brimstone. You may not believe those things about God now, but it’s still stuck back in there in your subconscious, and your nervous system remembers that fear, that intense fear that you felt when you heard that pastor.

You may have had parents that quoted certain Scripture verses to you or were very harsh toward you in their discipline, and they may have somehow incorporated God into certain things. OCD-wise, God doesn’t want you to be a lazy person. God doesn’t want you to be dirty. Cleanliness is next to godliness, whatever it was. Those ideas from people got mixed in with your theology. You have to be able to examine, how did I come to believe the things that I do about God? I think that is crucial.

Oftentimes, there are things that we don’t recognize because it’s just the water that we’ve been swimming in. Until you get in treatment or talk to another therapist where they’re like, where did you come to have that belief? Or how did you get to that point? It’s like, well, it just is. It’s black and white, right?

There’s a lot of conversation nowadays about deconstructing your religious beliefs that you were taught and that you grew up with. You really don’t want to have deconstruction unless you’re going to have some type of reconstruction, right? What are we going to believe now about God? Are we going to use Scripture to inform our belief systems, or are we going on our own experiences?

Knowing that your experiences with God, if you have a relationship with Him, there may be experiences that you have that really challenge what you were taught. There may be Scriptures that you read in the Bible where you say, wait a minute, I wasn’t taught that. I was taught that I was nothing in the sight of God, that I wasn’t important, that I wasn’t valued, that I was just kind of here for God’s purposes. I was basically taught that I was scum. Now I’m seeing all these verses in the Bible about how God rejoices over me with singing, that we talked about on the love episode on the podcast, how God has loved us with an everlasting love, how God sees me as His child. And I look at my own children and see how I see them, and if God sees me that way, then wow, that’s completely different than what I grew up believing.

Whatever it is for you, I think you have to be able to take a hard look and recognize maybe something that I believe is not true and it’s not in alignment with my relationship with God.

I’ll give you a very small example in my life that is not of huge relevance, but I was taught as a child, growing up in the Baptist church, that speaking in tongues was not a thing, that it was a thing in the Bible. My dad was a very strong cessationist, where they believed that there was a point where speaking in tongues ceased and it was no more. Since being an adult and going to different churches, I’ve met some people that I consider to be very godly people and strong believers who speak in tongues. So I have a respect for those people, even though I haven’t been given that gift myself.

I would say that that’s one belief that has changed based on my own review of the Scriptures for myself as an adult and through personal experience of talking with other believers. I think we have to free ourselves to acknowledge that maybe our past self was wrong about something, and that’s okay. And maybe our beliefs can change. That’s not necessarily a bad thing.

I know that Steve and I have talked about this with some other non-essential beliefs, that some of his views on certain things have changed over time based on reading the Bible, prayer, personal experience, and talking with other people. So it’s okay and, I think, healthy every once in a while to examine what you believe about God and understand where that came from and why you believe that.

Number eight is you have to be willing to examine how your relationships with others are impacting the scrupulosity, how they’ve impacted your view of God. Specifically, those early relationships that we had with parents, teachers, coaches, grandparents really can influence how we view God. Oftentimes, we take those experiences from other people and place them onto God.

If you just felt like people were constantly disappointed in you, like you could never live up to their expectations, it makes sense that you would believe that God is that way. If you feel like people were just very harsh and always pointing out what you were doing wrong, or you were constantly being punished, maybe you really struggled to please people but you always seemed to get in trouble, and the punishment maybe didn’t quite fit the crime, was maybe harsher than it needed to be—I don’t know what your experience was—but that might be another example where you feel like, okay, God is really harsh and is coming down on me pretty hard.

I had a father who was pretty big and could be pretty scary when he was angry. Not in an I’m going to be beat up kind of way, but more of an authoritative, verbally scary type of way. I definitely put that onto God, like maybe God is like Dad and He’s going to yell at me if I get in trouble, or He’s going to be upset with me if I do the wrong thing. And it took me a while into my adulthood to be able to even call God Father. That just didn’t seem quite right to me.

This understanding now of God as a loving Father has completely changed and shifted things for me. It’s been a healing journey and very therapeutic for me. But it took me a while to get there because, as I shared on the very first episode of this podcast, when I was growing up, God seemed to be very harsh to me. In the Old Testament, God seemed very angry. Now I have a much more balanced view of that because I can definitely see God’s love throughout different pieces of the Old Testament. But back when I was a kid, things didn’t quite make as much sense for me.

I also didn’t see God as wanting to be intimately involved in every aspect of my life. I think my parents did a really good job of taking us to church and talking to us about God when it came to the big things and the moral things. But I really want my daughter to know something that maybe my child self didn’t know, that God cares about your math test on a Tuesday just as much as He cares about you making the right decision over here about something. God wants to be intimately involved in your life. He wants you to go to Him over all types of different things. Things that seem small to us are not insignificant to Him, and He has enough space to hold them. It’s not like we’re going to bother God. If we go to Him about our math test, He’s not going to be like, why are you talking to Me about that? He’s going to be like, I’m so glad that you talked to Me about that. God wants to give us peace.

I didn’t get that picture of God growing up, and now I’m able to tell my daughter, you can talk to God about anything, whatever you need to. And she just has these really sweet prayers at night where she thanks God for different toys in her room, and I just think that that’s beautiful.

Oftentimes, we overcomplicate our connection with God. Jesus said, come like a child. So if we look at how children approach God, then it’s much more simple and much easier than trying to follow a huge, long list of rules or picking apart every little thing to determine whether or not it’s a sin or it’s okay. I think that children have a greater understanding of things being about the heart and doing things out of love.

So how have your relationships with caregivers impacted your view of God? This is really where I believe a great EMDR application can come in. Because if we do have some of those wounding experiences that are stuck in our nervous system and you’re able to process through that and come to the other side where you’re feeling calmer and recognizing, oh, okay, I was hurt by certain people, or I understand I’m making a connection now between a parent and viewing God as harsh, or this super critical parent and viewing God as critical. That type of work typically isn’t going to enter into typical ERP or ICBT treatment.

One of the things that I think is really important and critical is to look at individuals as whole people, to look at the various aspects of what’s happening for them versus looking at them from a lens of diagnosis. When I was much earlier on in my career, someone would come to me and say, hey, I have trauma. I’m like, hey, great, I do this trauma therapy called EMDR. We could handle that. Or someone would come and say, hey, I have anxiety. Oh, great, here’s some tools that I can give you for anxiety. There’s also some things that we can do with EMDR that will really help you get down to the root and not have to carry so much anxiety around in your nervous system.

And it was this much cleaner process, right, of here’s a problem that someone has, and then here’s an appropriate intervention. And it’s also somewhat what we’re taught in school. The longer that you go along, the more complex individuals you find and the more you recognize different approaches can be helpful in different circumstances and situations. I don’t believe in a one-size-fits-all treatment process for anyone.

New beliefs require a new identity. If you are going to embrace new beliefs about faith, new beliefs about God—if you are no longer the unworthy stepchild in the family of God and you are going to be the beloved child—that requires putting on a new identity in Jesus. Sometimes shedding that old identity that’s comfortable or familiar to embrace your new identity in Christ can be really, really challenging if you’ve lived for a really long time believing God was disappointed in you or that you weren’t good enough or that you weren’t ever going to be able to meet His standards.

And now you’re trying to shift over every day into believing that you are absolutely and completely loved, that you have been saved, that the cross is the finished work of Jesus Christ, and there’s nothing else that you need to do to earn God’s love. Ephesians 4 talks about putting off the old self and putting on the new self and understanding who you are in Christ. Freedom is going to be uncomfortable at first if it’s a new experience for you.

What do you think about these points that I came up with? I would love to hear from you. If you’re a therapist that treats scrupulosity, if you’re a person that struggles with it, if you have a family member or a loved one, I’d love to hear your honest feedback on this episode because I just want to know, are other people seeing what I’m seeing in the world and talking about the complexities that get brought into the scrupulosity equation?

If you are struggling with scrupulosity, my hope is that you’ve gotten a few things out of this episode. One is that there is hope for you, that there is a pathway forward, that it may be complicated, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t get help with this. Number two, I hope that it’s validating to you that if you’ve struggled, if you’ve been to a couple different therapists, if you’ve tried the biblical therapy and then tried a clinical counselor who wasn’t Christian and tried to find this happy medium of what you were looking for between solid biblical truth and clinical skills that are going to be able to help you, know that you’re not alone. We get emails from people all the time who are seeking to find that.

If you happen to be a therapist that you feel like is aligned with that vision, where you’re a strong believer and also have strong clinical skills, please write to us. Please reach out via the podcast. You can go to kerrybock.com/podcast. There should be a contact form on there. If not, you can hit us up on the main contact form on the website. We’d love to hear from you. We probably could provide you some referrals because we do have people that reach out to us and ask, do you know anyone in my state? And unfortunately, nine times out of ten, the answer is no.

So if you are a Christian counselor who has some things you want to talk about or have conversations about on the podcast, we’d love to have you and love to be able to add you to our very small, at this point, referral list for Christians who are struggling with OCD.

And if you feel like you’ve only been getting a one-size-fits-all approach, it’s a really great opportunity for you to advocate for yourself and to figure out, okay, what’s the next step? What do I need? I provide consultations for people. I provide intensive experiences, multi-day therapeutic retreats. I have an online course called Empowered Mind for Christians who are struggling with all types of OCD, but many people in there are specifically struggling with scrupulosity. Come join that program and really squeeze all of the goodness that is in there out of it. It’s been able to help a lot of people at this point, and I pray that it continues to be able to help people who feel like they haven’t been able to get the help that they needed before, where it’s been out of reach for some reason for them.

You can reach me at carriebock.com. I love hearing from you guys. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

212.  Pt 1: Why Scrupulosity is so Complicated and Hard to Treat

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

As we continue the Scrupulosity Series, Carrie unpacks the hidden layers that make religious OCD uniquely complex, especially when spiritual doubt, fear of sin, and confusion about God’s character get tangled in the OCD cycle.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why scrupulosity (religious OCD) is more complex than other OCD themes and why it often feels harder to treat
  • How church culture and biblical counseling can unintentionally reinforce the OCD cycle
  • Why reassurance about salvation, sin, or blasphemy can actually make scrupulosity worse
  • How mental health stigma in Christian spaces delays proper OCD treatment
  • The difference between intrusive thoughts, temptation, and actual sin from a biblical perspective
  • How black-and-white theology and fear-based thinking keep religious OCD stuck

Episode Summary:

Have you ever wondered why scrupulosity feels harder to untangle than other types of OCD? Not just distressing or intrusive, but deeply personal. Like it’s wrapped around your faith, your salvation, and your relationship with God in a way that makes everything feel higher stakes.

When I sat down to record this episode, I truly thought I could cover it all in one sitting. I couldn’t. There are too many layers. So we’re taking this in two parts.

If you’ve been feeling stuck or confused about why this struggle feels so intense, I think this conversation is going to bring some clarity.

Why Does Scrupulosity Feel Different From Other OCD Themes?

On paper, OCD follows similar reasoning patterns across themes. But when it attaches itself to your faith, it hits differently.

You’re not just afraid of being wrong. You’re afraid of sinning. You’re afraid of losing your salvation. You’re afraid of disappointing God.

That spiritual weight changes everything. And it’s one of the reasons scrupulosity feels uniquely heavy.

Why Do Christians With Scrupulosity Go to Pastors First?

Because the fears sound spiritual.

If you’re thinking, “What if I blasphemed?” or “What if I’m not truly saved?” of course you’re going to seek spiritual guidance. That makes sense.

But what if what you’re experiencing isn’t primarily a spiritual problem?

What if it’s OCD attaching itself to the thing you value most?

That distinction matters more than you may realize.

Can Reassurance Make Scrupulosity Worse?

This one is tender.

Reassurance feels comforting in the moment. But if the doubt keeps coming back, if the relief doesn’t last, if you find yourself asking the same question in slightly different ways, that may not be weak faith.

It may be the OCD cycle strengthening itself.

Understanding that changes how we approach healing.

Is Taking Medication for OCD a Lack of Faith?

I hear this concern more than you might think.

Some believers quietly carry shame about therapy or medication, wondering if it means they’re not trusting God enough.

But you can love Jesus deeply and still need professional support. Sometimes God’s provision shows up through doctors, therapists, and medication. That doesn’t make you less spiritual. It makes you human.

Why Do Intrusive Thoughts Feel Like Sin?

Scrupulosity blends categories in painful ways.

A thought feels like an action. A temptation feels like a moral failure. A doubt feels like proof.

But having a thought is not the same thing as choosing it.

And learning to separate those pieces is a huge part of healing.

Press play and join me for this conversation.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

So what’s the deal? Why is scrupulosity so complicated, so hard to treat? I’ve said before that the obsessional reasoning process is the same, and so it doesn’t really matter what theme that you have. Inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, will work for you. However, I’d like to somewhat revise my statements on this because even though ICBT can work for all themes of OCD, scrupulosity, I’ve realized, is a whole other animal. There are so many different layers of complexity to this that we really need to talk about—challenges that people run into when they’re trying to get help for scrupulosity, as well as challenges therapists might run into who are trying to help people struggling with scrupulosity.

I’ve come up with several points.

Number one is the lack of awareness in churches and biblical counseling circles that leads to a delay in clinical treatment for scrupulosity. This is a huge issue because most people see this as a spiritual problem. They’re going to seek a spiritual solution first. That just makes sense. They’re gonna go to a pastor, a ministry leader, a biblical counselor, and say, “Hey, I’m wrestling with this issue. I’m afraid maybe I’ve blasphemed. I’m afraid maybe that secretly I’m really a Pharisee. I’m a wolf in sheep’s clothing that the Bible is talking about. I think maybe I’ve lost my salvation.” All of these different ruminations that Christians who are struggling with scrupulosity have.

Unfortunately, many people still have this idea in their head of OCD that it’s like Monk and they’re all germaphobes, or they all have color-coordinated closets. And we really need to do more education within the church. We had a podcast episode that I did with Rachel Kuku Woodward on what I wish pastors knew about OCD. Please share that with your pastor, your ministry leader, deacons in your church. We would love to get that information out there because people need to know what religious OCD looks like.

Oftentimes they don’t know what religious OCD looks like, and some of these issues can be common spiritual doubts among people that don’t have OCD. There is a delay in seeking care. What happens is people will go to these individuals for reassurance. They’ll receive some reassurance, but of course it doesn’t stick. So then the person is coming back and is even more distressed and more upset. Or maybe they’re ruminating about a completely different spiritual issue the next time. So it doesn’t occur to the person that’s talking to them that this is what OCD looks like.

I have gotten to the point where I shudder a little bit when someone with OCD tells me that they’re going to biblical counseling. Now some of you are like, “Carrie, I know that you’re a Christian and I know that you read the Bible and love the Lord. So why would you say that? Are you anti-biblical counseling?” No, I’m not anti-biblical counseling. I think it has its place. I think it might be really helpful for someone that’s, for example, trying to figure out how to emulate a godly marriage according to the Bible. Maybe they didn’t have good examples of that, or maybe they just didn’t grow up in a church that was teaching about how to be a godly wife or how to be a godly husband. Maybe it could be really great for people who are needing to deal with forgiveness. They find themselves having a lot of bitterness or a lot of anger towards things that have happened to them that they wanna deal with on a spiritual level and forgive people. I went through some of that work in college. It was amazing and incredibly helpful for me.

So I think there is a place for biblical counseling—not when it comes to OCD treatment. The reason for that is because 97 out of a hundred times, that person is going to said biblical counselor who doesn’t have any knowledge about OCD, how to treat OCD, and that person is just providing reassurance or co-ruminating with the individual with OCD, which is only strengthening the process, once again delaying treatment and causing the OCD to strengthen and get worse. Think about this for a minute. Someone is gonna get help and the help they’re seeking is actually making them sicker. This has gotta stop. We have to educate and coordinate our faith communities as therapists and be working arm in arm together to help support people in the best way possible—spiritually, mentally, emotionally, medically.

Number two, scrupulosity is really complicated and hard to treat because there are all kinds of different views about mental health and medication in the church today. Now I believe that we have come a long way. I am very hopeful. The reason I’m hopeful is because when I started this podcast over five years ago now, there was just very, very little to nothing in regards to Christianity and OCD. Now that has changed. There have been more personal stories that people have written or shared, knowledge that is coming to the forefront. But I searched, I dug down in the Google search, and I just didn’t have resources. And that’s one of the reasons that I’m here talking about this with you guys, because I became very burdened that there’s nothing that’s clinically sound and biblically sound mixed together.

I was hearing from too many Christians that they were just getting the easy kind of answers, the pat answers in the church. “You know, you just really need to pray about this more, and if you just trusted God with that. I mean, just let it go. Just trust God. You know, if you have enough faith, God will move the mountains for you.” All of these things are not particularly helpful when someone is in an immense state of suffering.

And of course, it’s helpful to pray. Of course, it’s helpful to read your Bible. But if we have somebody who’s up in debt, up to their eyeballs, we’re not just gonna throw them a Bible, say a prayer for them, and walk away. I hope you wouldn’t do that if they came to you for help and said, “Hey, I’m in debt up to my eyeballs. I’m struggling.” I hope that you would be like, “Hey, can we find you a financial counselor? Maybe somebody that can sit down with you and look at what you owe, look at your interest rates, find a pathway out of this if that’s something that you’re willing to do.” Most people who are in really bad shape like that can’t get out on their own.

And so the same thing with mental health struggles. If someone is coming to you and they have a severe medical problem like diabetes or cancer, of course we’re gonna pray for that person. Of course, we’re gonna maybe send them encouraging scriptures. We’re not just gonna leave it at that. We’re gonna say, “Hey, what is your doctor saying? What’s the plan? What does the treatment plan look like? How is your diet? How are other things going on in your life?” We wanna really care about people at a deep level and meet them where they are and help them meet their needs.

But somehow when it comes to mental health in the church, we’ve got this idea that we should be able to throw some kind of Jesus Band-Aid on a gaping wound and that that should be fine. “Well, Jesus is all you really need,” and just move forward.

Wisdom comes from God. James 1:5 says if we ask God for wisdom, that he’s gonna give it to us. And sometimes that comes from scripture. Sometimes that comes from the Holy Spirit speaking to you. But many times it also comes through other believers, through people who can speak truth into your life or knowledge that maybe they have received educationally that they can then pass on to you. God calls us as Christians to live in community.

If you talk to anyone who has been through an addiction and has become sober for any length of time, they will probably tell you that there was some type of community involvement that helped them in that process. Typically, people don’t just stay in their bedroom and get sober and shut the whole world out. Typically, they’re involved in some type of support group, or they have some type of mentorship happening or sponsorship happening, because we need other people. Sometimes it takes this huge level of humility to be able to say, “You know what? I need help.”

And when somebody is coming to us in the church with immense emotional burdens—we can see that it’s affecting them physically. Maybe they physically look super tense, fidgety. Their voice is shaking when you’re talking to them. They’re crying all the time. We need to be able to support them in getting the professional help that they need, whatever that looks like. I think unfortunately, many churches have dropped the ball on this and haven’t provided encouragement or referrals to professionals.

I wanna say a few words about taking medication. I’m not a doctor, so this is coming from a therapist, but I sincerely believe that you can have Jesus, love the Lord, take medication, and go to therapy, and that those things are not in opposition to each other. Sometimes people in the church feel like, “Oh, if I take medication somehow that’s a sign of weak faith.” It’s not.

I love what Tiffany S. says in her book Anxious with Jesus. She talks about praying while taking your medication, and just this combination of allowing God to use the resources that we have and understanding and elevating him as the ultimate healer. JP Moreland wrote a book called Finding Quiet, where he talks about taking medication for anxiety as a believer, and I believe that’s a really great explanation for anyone out there. I would love to get in touch with him. So if you happen to be buds with JP Moreland, I’ve tried to reach out to him via his website, I think, and really haven’t been able to get in touch with him. So if you are a networker, connector, I’d love to have him on the podcast. You can share this with him.

You’re not less spiritual for taking antidepressants any more than you’re less spiritual for taking chemo drugs or less spiritual for taking diabetes medicine. Let’s say it louder for the people in the back. Okay? We have to really get this sunk deep down into our psyches that it’s okay to take these medications, especially when you are in the midst of treatment and really trying to learn new skills. You’re struggling, it’s hard, or you’ve just gone through a really rough bout where your symptoms have become more severe. Don’t be afraid. Talk to your doctor. Talk to a psychiatrist. Utilize these things as resources.

I really encourage you, if you have OCD, to look into the FDA-approved medications for OCD because sometimes doctors get a little wild and just start prescribing various antidepressants. And so if they are prescribing something that’s not on that list, I would just say, “Hey, what is your thought process behind that? I’m just really curious. I did my research and I noticed that these were the medications that were FDA-approved specifically for OCD.”

Point number three is that the American Christian church has a really unhealthy relationship with thoughts and feelings in general. I know that is a very broad statement, but it’s something that I’ve seen over and over in my work, where there’s almost this subtle idea that we’re having to fight all the time with our thoughts and feelings. And how much energy does that take? That consumes a lot of energy—trying to fight with these things that are natural, that we all deal with and we all have to face at one point or another.

It’s much easier to take a more flat mindfulness approach of like, okay, it’s here. I may not like it, but I still have to figure out, okay, now that it’s here, I can either acknowledge it’s here or deny that it’s here. If I deny that it’s here, it’s still gonna be there and I’m still gonna have to deal with it at some point or another. It’s gonna keep coming back up and keep bugging me.

I think there’s this emphasis in the church to do one of two things: either to take our thoughts and feelings super seriously and put a lot of energy into them, or to deny them completely. And either is an issue. We have to find a balance point, a middle ground.

So if we’re putting too much emphasis on thoughts, it’s like bad thoughts have to be feared. We have to watch every little thing that comes into our mind. “You have to watch your thoughts because your thoughts will become your behavior.” That is not always the case. There are lots of things—trust me, I do not have OCD—but I’ll tell you, there are lots of things that come into my head that I do not act on. I’m like, “That is a really bad idea right now. Do not do that.”

This is why we have filters in our mind of past experiences, of things that we’re like, “Okay, if I do A, I know B is probably going to happen, and so I’m gonna not do A, even though I may really wanna do that right now.” I may really want to get defensive in this argument, but I know that it’s just gonna continue the argument and cause more relationship problems. I may really wanna scream right now because somebody is not listening to what I’m saying, but I’m gonna stop. I’m gonna walk away. I’m gonna take five deep breaths, come back, try this situation again.

Could you imagine if you acted on every thought that you had? How many of you have had a thought this week that said, “I don’t wanna do this,” and what if you acted on that thought? Even today, I’ve been recovering from a cold. I still am dealing with some sinus issues. I was losing my voice earlier this week and I said, “You know, I just am not sure that I wanna record this podcast episode.” Yet here I am recording because it’s important, because I wanna talk to you, because I know that if I don’t do it this week, it’s gonna get pushed off to next week and then I’ll have more to do next week. All of these things can go through my mind. They’re being filtered through my values at that point. And my values say, “Hey, even though we don’t feel like it right now, we’re still gonna show up and do the thing.”

You may feel that same way about work. There may be times where you do not wanna play with your children because you’re exhausted, but you still do it because you know it’s important and you wanna connect with them. Just think about that last time that you really thought, “I’m not sure I wanna do this,” and you did it anyway. See, you acted against a thought that you had.

When we overemphasize our thoughts, we may get really stuck on taking every thought captive, really having to activate quite a bit and do something about these thoughts. I talked with someone recently who was a former pastor who dealt with OCD, and he said, “Man, the pastor told me to take every thought captive. That just ruined me.” Now we have a whole podcast episode on that. You can go back and listen to it another time of what it means for OCD.

What happens when you overemphasize or place greater meaning onto thoughts than they really need to have in OCD is that it only makes them stronger. It only makes them come back more. If you’re trying to suppress thoughts, if you’re trying to neutralize them—like, “Hey, I’m gonna think of a positive memory because I just had a harm OCD thought. I’m gonna try to neutralize it with a positive memory”—rebuking thoughts, those types of things only make them come back more and more and make the OCD worse.

It seems to somewhat conflict with maybe some things that you’ve been taught in church. One thing I find particularly helpful is this concept from metacognitive therapy that says thoughts are like buses or like trains or subway cars—however you wanna think about it. Let’s say that thought bus comes along. You get to decide whether or not you are getting on that bus and continuing that thought direction or not. Or you can say, “You know what? I’m gonna let that bus pass by.” I’m not gonna get on there because if I get on that bus, it may lead me down this road that’s gonna take me to anxiety, intense fear, depression.

If I’m just ruminating on my past mistakes all the time, it’s gonna lead me to a sad place, and you know that. Obviously, if you have OCD, I’m not saying that this process is easy—to just detach from your thoughts. But the idea is that at some level we do have a choice of what we do with these thoughts as they come up. You may not have the choice of what bus decides to drive by. You may have lots of intrusive thoughts and you’re like, “Hey, I didn’t call for that taxi,” or, “I don’t wanna be at this bus stop where all these buses are trying to pick me up.” But you can decide whether or not you wanna continue on that bus.

Some people see any type of negative thought or temptation as sin. Having a negative thought is not automatically a sin. Having a tempting thought, such as a sexual thought, is not automatically sin. Once again, you get to decide what to do with that thought. You get to decide whether or not you’re gonna continue to go down that road of, “Oh, I had a lustful thought and I’m gonna give in to that and continue to visualize,” for example, versus, “No, I’m gonna disconnect from that and turn my eyes away. Leave that thought alone.” Temptation is not the same as sin, and that’s really important for us to wrap our minds around.

Those types of things can get easily blended in scrupulosity. So I’m blending being attracted to someone and lusting. Those are two different things. You have to be able to separate that out in order to work through it. Or I’m blending, “Hey, I just had a sexual tempting thought,” versus, “Oh no, now I feel like I’ve sinned and I have to confess and do all of these things.” Or, “I had some type of selfish thought and now I have to jump on that and automatically confess it.” Just be very careful about some of those things. Being able to recognize when you’re blending is super important.

In terms of thoughts, there’s a tendency to reinforce black-and-white thinking over certain theological issues. For example, the non-essentials can all of a sudden become essentials that people get really stuck on. Examples of this: Which denomination do I need to be a part of or follow? Scrupulosity will have you going round and round on that one. I talked to a person many years back, I believe, who said this just kind of had consumed all areas of their life because one of the denominations they were looking at was pretty strict and rigid in terms of what you could and couldn’t wear, how you dressed, how you did makeup, those types of things, what you ate. So everything in their whole life just felt really restricted. A lot of confusion over that.

I’ve had somebody reach out not too long ago asking about denominations and things of that nature. Scrupulosity can get really stuck on things that are non-essentials and see them as black or white, like there must be one that’s right. Somehow, if I follow this denomination, it must be right. That means that this one is wrong. “Oh no, my friend’s a part of that denomination. What does that mean? Does that mean that they’re not following Jesus right?”

We have to remember to keep the main things the main things. We’re about following Christ. We’re about spiritual practices that are going to get us closer to Jesus. That’s pretty simple: love God, love other people. That’s what we’ve boiled the first two greatest commandments down to, right?

I’ve had people stuck on Calvinism versus Arminianism. The problem is that you can find YouTube videos or reels on Instagram where people are gonna be speaking very strongly in one direction or another. “We’re right. We’re the Calvinists and we’re right, and here’s the scriptures to prove it.” Then the Arminians are over on the other side going, “We’re Arminians and we’re right, and here’s the scripture to prove it.” This creates a lot of confusion, obviously, for people with scrupulosity.

When we have this type of black-and-white thinking in a church, I think it’s much more balanced to be able to say, “Okay, what are the actual essential things? What are the non-essentials? About the non-essentials, some people believe this and some people believe that. One person isn’t necessarily right or wrong.” We’ve got to let go of some of the black-and-white thinking on the non-essential issues.

Let’s talk for a moment about feelings and either paying too much attention to our feelings or not enough attention to our feelings in the church. I’ve seen both sides of this. A lot of times younger people—teens, young adults—go through this. I remember going through something like this. It’s like, “I don’t feel close to God. What does that mean? If I don’t feel him right now and I’m in this worship service and everybody just seems to feel God and I don’t feel him, and I don’t feel like he loves me.” We’re just way too feeling-absorbed at that point because feelings aren’t everything.

I love my husband and sometimes I feel very close to him. But if I wake up tomorrow and I don’t feel close to him, I still love him. I’m still gonna do things to care for him. I’m still gonna ask him about his day, how he’s doing. I’m still gonna tell him I love him even though I may not have all these warm, fuzzy feelings inside. The same thing is true with God. There are some times where you may feel really close to God, but you can love God and not necessarily have all the warm fuzzies. We’re not gonna have those all of the time. Not all of life or all of spirituality is a mountaintop-type experience. You’re gonna go through some valleys in your life. You’re gonna go through some struggles and some wrestlings. All of that is very normal. All of it’s very biblical. Go read the Psalms.

There were times where David was on a high—defeating his enemies, life’s good, God’s good, everything’s awesome. Then you flip a couple Psalms later and he’s like, “God, where are you? What’s going on? Why are my enemies triumphing over me?” We have to find a more balanced view of our feelings and know that they can’t just dictate and rule our life and spirituality.

On the flip side, I’ve also heard statements in churches like, “Well, you just have to fight your feelings with faith. It’s not all about your feelings. You just gotta speak the truth and move forward, and it doesn’t really matter how you feel.” That’s completely on the opposite extreme. That’s in a different ditch on the side of the road. Two ditches on the side of the road. One, we’re completely all about our feelings and absorbed in them. The other is we’re just like, “No, gotta fight those. They’re not godly.”

God has created us in his image. God is an emotional being. Therefore, we are emotional beings. We’re not perfect, so we do not always handle our emotions in a perfect and holy way. But part of our sanctification process is learning how to manage these emotions as they come up. I really do believe that. God can use emotions in our life to connect us with other people in intimacy and close relationships, and I think that is very important.

I don’t think that we need to fight our feelings with faith because I don’t believe they’re in opposition to our faith. Even if I feel not close to God or I feel abandoned by him or I feel like he doesn’t care about what’s happening in my life, that’s a great and golden opportunity for me to then bring those feelings back to God and say, “Hey, here’s what I’m feeling. What’s going on? I don’t feel like you care about this.” God can handle all of those things. Typically, when you get all of that out, by the end you feel better and you remember, okay, I’m not in control of this. God is in control. Somehow things are gonna work out for my good and it’s gonna be okay.

I am encouraged and I hope that we can grow in this process with the church of having a healthier understanding, a more balanced relationship with our thoughts and feelings—where we don’t feel like we have to pounce on every bad thought, where we don’t feel like we have to shove down feelings that we don’t think align with God, that we can ultimately experience these things without being ruled by them. We don’t have to be ruled by our thoughts or ruled by our emotions. We can recognize that these thoughts, feelings, and body sensations are there. They’re a part of our experience. Ultimately, we’re making choices. Those things may inform our choices at times, and that’s not always a bad thing.

Sometimes you may have a feeling that you really need to pay attention to. If your body is in pain, if it’s sending you a signal that you are physically in pain, you probably need to pay attention to that. I think the same is true with emotional pain. There’s some kind of healing that God wants to do in your life. If we just ignore that emotional pain and we say, “No, I have faith. God is good. Everything’s fine,” then we miss out on that opportunity for God to do that deeper-level emotional work in our life and for us to receive that healing from him.

Join me back next week as I continue this conversation on why scrupulosity is so complicated and hard to treat. If you love Jesus and are struggling with scrupulosity, I would love for you to check out the resources on my website. We’d love to have you join our weekly newsletter. I put out one a week. You get it every Wednesday morning. Not only do we tell you about what podcast episode is coming out, but I really strive to make that valuable. I tell you some stories about things that God is teaching me in my life and how I see some of those things relating to the struggle of walking the Christian walk, and tie that into how it applies to OCD. So I’d love to have you hang out with us reading the newsletter.

Our email insiders are also the first to know about things around here because we’re on about a three- to four-week delay in podcasting world time, because it takes time, obviously, to edit and get things out there. If you’d like to be the first to know, head on over to kerryb.com to sign up for the newsletter.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

211. Embracing God’s Love 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

We’re kicking off the Scrupulosity Series by starting at the foundation, God’s love. 

In this episode, Carrie explores how shame, church hurt, and feelings of unworthiness can cloud our view of Him, and how Scripture invites us to receive the steady, unchanging love of Christ that nothing can take away.

Episode Highlights:

  • How scrupulosity distorts your view of God’s character and keeps you stuck in fear
  • Why embracing God’s love is foundational to healing from religious OCD
  • Common reasons we reject God’s love, including church hurt and shame
  • The difference between accepting God’s forgiveness and compulsively seeking reassurance
  • Practical ways to notice evidence of God’s love in everyday life
  • How speaking Scripture daily can help renew your mind and strengthen your identity in Christ

Episode Summary:

Why Does God’s Love Feel So Hard to Receive When You Have Scrupulosity?

If you struggle with scrupulosity, you probably already know the “right” answer.

God loves me.

You have heard it your whole life. You may have even said it to someone else. But deep down, it feels just slightly out of reach. Like it is true for everyone else, but not fully true for you.

As we begin this new scrupulosity series, we are starting at the foundation. Not with more rules. Not with more checking. But with something deeper. We are talking about what it really means to embrace God’s love when OCD has tangled it up with fear.

Because scrupulosity quietly shifts how we see God. And when our view of Him shifts, everything else does too.

Why does God’s love feel real for everyone else but not for me?

So many of you have asked this.

You can believe Jesus died for sinners. You can believe in grace. But when it comes to your intrusive thoughts, your doubts, or your past mistakes, something feels different.

In this episode, we gently explore why that gap exists and why it makes sense that your heart feels guarded.

Did church hurt affect how I see God?

If you have ever been rejected, criticized, or overlooked in Christian spaces, that pain does not just disappear.

Sometimes without realizing it, we begin to assume God will treat us the way people did.

But God is not like man. He is not withdrawing from you because you struggled this week. Scripture paints a very different picture of His heart, and we take time to look at that together.

Why do I still not feel forgiven?

Scrupulosity loves to replay things.

Did I confess correctly? Was I sincere enough? Do I need to go back and make sure?

There is a difference between chasing the feeling of forgiveness and accepting what God has already said is true. That distinction can bring tremendous relief, and we begin unpacking it in this conversation.

How can I actually begin to notice God’s love?

Sometimes the issue is not that God is absent. It is that your brain has been trained to scan for danger instead of grace.

I share a simple exercise in this episode that shows how powerful our focus really is and how shifting what you look for can begin to change what you see in your everyday life.

It may sound small, but it is not insignificant.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

  • 1 John 4:16
  • Romans 8:38 to 39
  • Jeremiah 31:3
  • Psalm 103:12
  • John 15:13
  • Romans 5:8
  • Psalm 139
  • Psalm 36:7
  • Psalm 18:19
  • Zephaniah 3:17
  • Ephesians 3:18 to 19

Tune into this week’s episode of Christian Faith and OCD, and let’s begin rebuilding your view of God together. And if someone you love is quietly battling scrupulosity, share this with them today.

Transcript

Hello, OCD Warriors, and welcome back to the podcast. I am excited today because we are kicking off a scrupulosity series. This series was really birthed from you guys, from surveying the audience and looking at what topics you were interested in. I know we have a lot of people who listen because they’re Christian and they’re really struggling with scrupulosity.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Kerry Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

That’s something we’ve talked about on the show in the past, and you can certainly search for that topic via our website. On the podcast breakdown page, you can type in any topic that you’re interested in, whether that’s prayer or Bible, and it’ll pop up those episodes for you. Today, I am talking about embracing God’s love.

I thought that would be an appropriate topic since we just passed Valentine’s Day. I also really believe that one of the keys to working through scrupulosity is changing your theology. And when I say changing your theology, what I’m meaning is lining it up more with an accurate biblical theology of what we actually see of God.

And if you believe that God genuinely loves you, deep down in your core, for me, that just has changed everything in my life. And so I definitely want that for every person who’s listening here. And I know from talking with people who deal with scrupulosity that God’s love often feels like it’s out of reach.

It feels like some type of concept that’s available for others, but not necessarily available for you. It’s theoretical. It’s kind of out there, but it doesn’t feel tangible. It doesn’t feel like something that’s close to your heart that you can really, deep down, know. Not just at a surface level, like, oh yeah, yeah, God loves me, but how can we really embrace it?

Before we get into embracing it, if we want to move from one place to another and feel stuck in our current situation, we first have to reflect on how in the world did I get here in the first place. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that happen in your life where you’re sitting there going, wait a minute, I’m in a pickle. How did I even get in this pickle in the first place? I need to understand this so that this doesn’t happen again.

So what are some of the reasons that we reject the love of God in our life? I would say the number one is that we’ve been hurt by people, sometimes by people who don’t claim to love God, but many times by people who do claim to love God. I know that I have been deeply rejected and wounded by other Christians. That has had a profound impact on my life.

I mean, people that I used to be close to, used to eat with, used to talk to on the phone on a regular basis, and now we don’t speak at all. That’s hard. Maybe you had a church hurt situation where people rejected you because you didn’t live up to their particular expectations. Maybe it hasn’t been an overt rejection, but maybe you’ve experienced just being outside the inner circle, maybe just a lack of acceptance from other people in church where you felt alone or isolated.

I know that has happened to me at various points in my life where I felt like I’ve tried to get close to certain people, but it’s just been met with challenges.

Another reason I think we reject the love of God is because we feel this sense of being unworthy, like we have personal defects, and how could God love me if I am dealing with this particular sin in my life or I don’t know. I’m the awkward person. Does God really love me? I’m not the person that’s going to be picked for homecoming queen, or I’m not the guy that’s going to be picked to be the quarterback of the football team.

One thing I know is that if you don’t have any sense of self-love, it’s really hard to receive, to open yourself up to receive love from others, including God. And what I mean by self-love is not this selfishness or overinflated sense of pride. I’m talking about recognizing your worth and value as being created in God’s image and being loved as His child.

That is what I refer to as self-love. I realize people may use that differently in different ways, and sometimes it has a bad connotation. But Jesus said that we should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. And so if we don’t love ourselves at all, if we don’t see any value in who we are as human beings created in God’s image, then how are we supposed to see that value in someone else who has also been created in God’s image and who is also deeply loved by Him?

My sense of self-esteem was pretty low when I was growing up. I looked around me and really felt this sense that other people were more talented than I was. This person was good at music, or that person was good at art, or this person had dance, and I didn’t really understand that my skills and abilities just may have looked different from other people’s.

I was certainly involved in extracurricular activities, but I never really felt like I found my thing, whereas I saw that in some of my other friends. They found that thing that made them come alive. Being a highly sensitive introvert going into even high school and college, that wasn’t seen as an asset.

If you have a hard time talking to people because you’re so shy, because no one has ever taught you how to make small talk or how to make conversation, I would think with my parents being in ministry that somehow I would have absorbed some of that. But for whatever reason, I didn’t. I think I needed some type of social skills training or something because I was pretty much afraid to talk to people and had to learn over time how to do it.

You combine that with the fact that I have the most serious look when I’m straight-faced ever. Then I also had to learn that I needed to smile a little bit more so that people didn’t think that I was staring them down or that somehow I was subtly angry at them.

The point is that I think at one point or another, we all feel unlovable. For some reason, we feel like there is no way that someone could love me. We reject God’s love because we just don’t get it. It doesn’t make sense to us. We can’t comprehend it from a human standpoint.

So if you’re a deep thinker and you analyze everything, which I know many of you do, it can be really hard to sit back and say, okay, God loves me unconditionally. Because we don’t have a template for that in our society. We’re all humans, so we’re all imperfect. We’re not going to love other people perfectly. Other people aren’t going to love us perfectly.

It’s really hard to understand unconditional love when we say, I just wouldn’t have patience for this person or what they’re doing, or I don’t think I could love someone who does that. Fill in the blank, whatever that is.

We reject God’s love if we haven’t embraced and accepted God’s forgiveness. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again. Forgiving yourself is not in the Bible. Accepting God’s free gift of forgiveness is believing in faith that if I have confessed my sin, as 1 John 1:9 says, that He has forgiven it.

I believe that God has removed my sin as far as the east is from the west, as Psalm 103:12 says. When that sin comes back up into your mind, however it comes back up, you say that sin was covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross. I do not need to go back there. That is what it means to accept God’s forgiveness, and sometimes it is a day-by-day, moment-by-moment situation.

You’re imperfect, and you’re going to sin again, and you’re going to ask for forgiveness again, and that is just part of the process. Until we get to heaven, we’ve got to get comfortable with that.

And the last big reason that I’m going to talk about that we don’t embrace God’s love and we reject His love is because opening ourselves up to love can feel really vulnerable. Not only are we opening ourselves up to feel love, we are opening ourselves up to being potentially rejected. Even though God is not going to reject us, we know what that feeling of rejection is like. That is burned into our nervous system, into our emotional muscle memory, so to speak.

So how do we accept God’s love that is there for us? Number one, embrace that God is not the same as man.

I never got to meet my paternal grandfather because he died before I was born, but my dad always talked about how he knew that his dad loved him. I guess his dad was not very verbal or expressive about saying the words, I love you. And my dad made a commitment and decision that he was going to verbalize those words to his kids, and he was going to say, I love you.

I don’t have a chance to ask my dad now because he’s in heaven, but I wonder how that affected his view of God and if he ever struggled with God loving him or not. I do think we take things from our parents oftentimes, and it could be parents, but it also could be other authority figures, whether it’s teachers or coaches, other people that spoke influence into your life.

Maybe it was a grandparent or an aunt or uncle who had an instrumental part in raising you. But we take how those people acted towards us and we often overlay that onto God.

Well, this person maybe was particularly harsh or strict, or maybe they were withdrawn. Maybe they were disinterested. Maybe your parent got mad at you and they just withdrew and went to their room, and you didn’t hear from them the rest of the night. Maybe it was something in the way that you saw your parents interact that you’ve laid onto God. Maybe your parent didn’t do that towards you, but your dad might have gotten mad at your mom and not talked to her for three days.

God is not like our parents, our coaches, aunts, uncles, or grandparents. God is love. That’s what the Scripture says. 1 John 4:16 says, So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

And even though you may have been rejected by a lot of people, as I have, God’s love is not removed from us. It’s not based on our behavior. Romans 8:38-39 says, For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen. We could stop the podcast right here. Nothing can separate you from the love of God.

One of my favorite verses that I have embraced, Jeremiah 31:3 says, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you. God’s love is everlasting. That means it’s not ending. It’s not going anywhere.

That’s incredible. Such a beautiful gift that He gives to us. God is not the same as man.

And two, I want you to look for God’s love in your life. If you’ve been around the podcast for a while, we talk about ICBT. That’s inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy. It’s an evidence-based treatment for OCD, and we talk a lot about sense data. And I really do believe that we have spiritual sense data as believers. After all, we have the Holy Spirit inside of us.

So how can we look for that in our life? How can we look for God’s love? I want to do a little exercise with you right now, and it may seem a little silly. I don’t want you to do this if you’re driving because part of it involves closing your eyes, okay? So don’t close your eyes if you’re listening to the podcast on the way to work. It would not be wise. But if you’re just around the house and you have the opportunity, first I want you to look for all of the red things in your environment around you.

Where I’m at, up in my home office, I see some books and they have a red spine or maybe burgundy, I guess that’s in the red family. I have some folders over here, like a binder that I see that’s red. A light that’s red, not on, that’s red in here, maybe a little bit on a pencil. And as you look at those objects in your room, hey, I’m drinking some tea, and that kind of has some reddish hue to it.

Now take a moment and close your eyes, and I want you to tell me what you saw in your environment that was blue.

Now you might be laughing a little bit like, well, that’s funny, Carrie. I don’t know what’s blue in my environment because I wasn’t really looking for that. I was looking for all the red stuff that you told me to look for.

This exercise shows us that when we’re looking for things, we’re going to find them. But if we’re not looking for things, a lot of times things will go unnoticed.

For example, I’m sure this has happened to you when you’ve bought a car, and all of a sudden you start to see that car everywhere. I feel like our car has a unique paint job. It’s not quite blue, and it’s not quite gray. I don’t even really know. I don’t remember what the color was. You know how they name these colors of paint jobs, and it was like that when we bought it. We didn’t have it painted or anything, but I thought, this is kind of a unique color. I really like it. There is something kind of peaceful about it.

All of a sudden, I started to see that color everywhere on different people’s cars. I was like, oh, well they have that same color too. Well, that’s nice. Oh, wait a minute, that’s the same model of car that I have. The same make and model. Oh, look at that car over there.

Of course, because now it was in my environment. It was right in front of my face. And so when we put something in front of our face or in our minds, sometimes we can’t help it.

We think about that friend that hurt us. We think about that church that really didn’t minister to us well and hurt our feelings. We felt like they dropped the ball. That’s happened. We bring those things up in our mind, and then we’re not looking for what are the good things that are going on around me. Where is God’s love displayed in my life right now?

And it could be something as simple as a flower blooming. There was a time where I went out to my mailbox, and it was just a hard season. I started to notice that my flowers were coming back from the winter where they go dormant. What do you call that? Perennials. You have bulbs, and they go dormant. They look like they’re dead and they’re toast after the winter. But then over time, as spring starts to come, as the ground starts to warm up, as they get that spring rain, the flowers start to come back out.

And so just even noticing that in itself is a gift.

When we have food on our table, when we have the ability to pay bills that have come up. Sometimes unexpected bills happen, and then you think, how am I going to pay for this? Or how am I going to be able to get the help that I need? And then God miraculously provides in some way. We weren’t expecting it, but finances work out or come through somehow.

It sounds really ridiculously silly, but I was going through a really hard season trying to recover from my divorce in 2015. I was talking to some friends just about the lack of physical contact in my life, the lack of touch, and I said I was thinking about just buying this gigantic pillow so I could kind of have this artificial hug.

Now I think they have these sleep pod things that are supposed to feel like a hug. Anyway, I don’t know anything about that, just seeing commercials. I probably would have bought one, though. I would have been in the market for something like that ten years ago. And they were just trying to encourage me and minister to me, and they were like, do what you need to do in this season in your life.

Feeling just really down and discouraged about not having anyone, I went to the store and there were pomegranates there. I love pomegranate. Such a side note, but it felt like, oh, this is like a silver lining in my day. It sounds really silly now, but it meant a lot to me at that moment. Like, okay, thank you, God, for this pomegranate. I’m so glad they’re back in season now because they have such a short season in the winter.

It’s like, oh, this is so great. I can go home and enjoy this part of my day after it’s been so dreary and just so sad and kind of depressed about being lonely and not having anyone. To me, that was God’s, in a very small tangible way, expression of love for me.

What happens when you read the story of the prodigal son? If you’re struggling with God’s forgiveness, what happens when you read that story and you put yourself as the prodigal son and God is running? I’m pretty sure in that culture that was kind of an embarrassing thing because just the way they would have had to pull up their clothes and all of that, it wasn’t something that would have been seen as honorable. But he ran to his son, welcomed him back into the household.

Not just that, but it’s like, hey, you’re back. I’m so glad to see you. Let’s throw a party. Not like, oh hey, I’m mad at you because you basically asked for your inheritance before I died. I mean, that’s what he did. Like, give me my share of the inheritance. His dad wasn’t even dead yet.

Some of us look at that and we’re like, yeah, I’m not letting him back in my house, much less throwing a party. But that just shows God’s longing to be in relationship with us and the deep love that He has for us.

And while I’m asking you to look for the day-to-day examples of God’s love in your life, I also want you to remember the greatest act of love that God could ever give you has already been given in His Son, Jesus. John 15:13 says, Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Unfortunately, as Christians, we hear this so much, Jesus died on the cross for you, that we’ve become desensitized to it. And I don’t want you to be desensitized to that.

I want you to take a moment of reflection and say, if I were to ask you, hey, would you give your child over for a murderer, for somebody that is abusive, for someone that has no care, no repentance, no concern for making the world a better place, your child over to that person? I would not. But God saw us in our mess of sin, and He chose to give His Son for us.

I just don’t think that we can ever really grasp that fully, that level of love. I think it’s worth contemplating and worth allowing deep down into your heart and mind and soul that this is the ultimate demonstration that God loves you. And that’s what Romans 5:8 says. But God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I think this is just a human flaw that we all have, to look at the deficits instead of looking at the good things. And we have to fight against that. As believers, we have to say, let me not find all the things that are wrong with today, but let me praise God that He is good. Let me focus on the things that I am so incredibly grateful for.

I so take it for granted that my house has electricity and I wake up in the morning and I turn a light switch on and bam, there’s a light. I don’t have to light a candle. I don’t have to get a lantern. I don’t have to figure out how I’m going to see to be able to work today.

My house is heated right now in the winter. As I’m recording this, we’re in this Middle Tennessee winter ice storm deal, and a lot of people are without power. And I don’t think I have ever been so thankful for my electricity lately because we were very fortunate and blessed not to lose power and had some plans and contingencies if we did lose power of what we were going to do. But I’m just so grateful even to have that opportunity.

Right on to number three, recognize God’s love in other believers.

Steve did something super sweet for me when we were dating, probably only a few months that we were together. I don’t know if you remember that toilet paper shortage of 2020, but it was a thing. The toilet paper companies had not caught up with the fact that they needed to produce less commercial toilet paper because people weren’t at the office and they weren’t at school and they weren’t in government buildings. So therefore, they needed to up their manufacturing of at-home personal rolls of toilet paper. So there were empty shelves when it came to toilet paper. And then of course, when there’s a shortage, people buy extra and it just perpetuates the problem.

Anyway, Steve shows up at my house one Saturday morning and he hands me a twelve-pack of Quilted Northern. I’m like, this is a good man right here. He anticipated a need in my life and he filled it, and that was just super sweet of him to do that.

Of course, there have been many, many ways that Steve loves me, large and small, over the years since we’ve been dating and married for five years now. But really a few months prior to Steve and I dating, my pastor’s wife at the time said to me, I think God wants to prove His kindness to you.

Steve was really an answer to many, many prayers of myself and other people in my life who had seen what I had gone through, the hardness of being single during my prime childbearing years. God has been so gracious to us.

But I wonder for you, who are the people in your life who have loved you at your lowest point when you didn’t deserve it, when maybe you hadn’t necessarily treated them great? You have a parent or a grandparent who is just always in your corner, always praying for you, always loving you. Sometimes God’s love shows up in a meal on a Tuesday night because you’ve had a crisis in your life and you just can’t. Sometimes God’s love shows up with someone showing up for you.

It could be a happy time in your life where they’re celebrating with you, or it could be a time where you’re sad and grieving and they don’t know what to say, but they just show up and spend time with you.

If you’re someone who has a tendency to push other people’s love away from you, I want to challenge you to allow it to come in. This is going to help you connect with others, and it’s also going to help you connect with God if you’ve been hurt. I know it may feel really vulnerable, may feel super scary. But you can do it. You can open yourself up to that love. God wants you to receive that.

There are so many one-another passages in Scripture that we can’t live out the Christian life God calls us to live on an island by ourselves. We need to be able to love other people, and we need to allow those people to love us as well.

The last point on how to embrace God’s love that is there for us is to speak the truth to yourself daily until you believe it. I want you to get up in the morning and say, God, I believe that You love me, and I want to accept that love today. I want to allow that love in.

I believe that Psalm 139 says that I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I believe Psalm 36:7, how precious is Your steadfast love, O God. I believe Psalm 18:19, He brought me out into a broad place; He rescued me because He delighted in me. I believe Zephaniah 3:17, The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness; H He will exalt over you with loud singing. How amazingly beautiful is that if you get up every day and you read some scriptures about God’s love, meditate on them, memorize them. Allow that truth to absorb into your mind and into your heart. That is a life changing. God will use that word planted in you to produce fruit, and you’ll be not only be able to love yourself in a healthy way, but you’ll be able to love others, the way that God desires you to love them.

If we don’t have the love of God in us, it’s gonna be hard for us to love other people. I wanna leave you with Paul’s prayer for the believers in Ephesians three 18 and 19. I pray that you have strength to comprehend with all the saints, what is the breath and length, and height and depth to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Lord, we ask that all who hear these words would believe and trust in your love, that you would allow them to see it in their day-to-day life, that they may be changed by it. Amen.

Check the show notes for the verses we used in this episode, and next week we’re going to be talking about why scrupulosity is so complicated and difficult to treat. So stay tuned for our next episode. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a sub. For seeking mental health treatment in your area.

210. Understanding Grace and Accepting God’s Forgiveness with author Nathan Clarkson

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie sits down with Nathan Clarkson, an actor, author, and podcast host, to talk about how scrupulosity, guilt, and contamination fears shaped his faith and how grace slowly rewrote that story.

Episode Highlights:

  • Nathan’s early experience with OCD and how it shaped his faith
  • How contamination OCD and scrupulosity often intertwine
  • Why OCD creates a distorted, harsh view of God
  • The difference between OCD guilt and true conviction
  • What it means to accept God’s forgiveness—even when it doesn’t feel true
  • How healing can grow in small, almost unnoticed steps when you walk with God and safe people
  • Nathan’s book I’m the Worst

Connect with Nathan Clarkson: www.instagram.com/nathanjclarkson/

Transcript

Welcome back, OCD Warriors. Today on the show I’m talking with Nathan Clarkson. He is a film and TV actor, besting author, indie filmmaker, and podcast philosopher on his award-winning show, The Overthinkers. Nathan is here to talk about his book that just came out towards the end of January called I’m the Worst. A powerful testimony that he shares with us regarding his lived experience with OCD. If you struggle with Scrupulosity at all, you’re really gonna enjoy this episode because we get into some juicy topics regarding grace, sin, God’s forgiveness. I know that you’re gonna be blessed by this episode.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you. With practical tools for developing greater peace, we’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Nathan, welcome to the show. We’re glad to have you here.

Nathan: Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Carrie: I understand you’re gonna tell us a little bit about your OCD story. You talk in your book about like just days spent with a lot of compulsions, showering, cleaning rituals, and like what was the process of coming to an understanding of your OCD?

Nathan: Oh yeah. Well, this has been a story since I was very young. My mom, before I even can really even remember, she has a story about me being a very, very little boy, maybe two or three. And she’s putting shoes on me, and she’s tying the little shoes and the laces are uneven, and I start crying and she can’t figure out what’s wrong, and she’s trying to comfort me. My little 2-year-old boy struggling for words, and I’m crying and then fidgeting, and she’s trying everything, and I keep on pointing to my shoes. She straightens, she evens out the little laces of my shoes. I go, oh, thank you. Thank you mom. And it was at that moment she kind of learned something different. OCD of course was had been talked about a little bit, but not quite so ubiquitously as is now. You know, we didn’t know as much and there wasn’t as many resources as there are now. Something in her mom brain said, Hey, there’s something different about my little boy. And she would notice all these little things from very, very early on, like that story in a million different ways.

I’d be lying in bed at night and she would come and kiss me goodnight and five minutes later I’d go and wake her up and say, I need you to come back. I can’t remember it. I would ask her over and over again, compulsively, I need you to come and kiss me goodnight again because I forgot if you did it. Wow. And I would ask her, you know, 15 times a night. I was really lucky to have a mom and a dad who were gracious with me and who were understanding, but they clued them to understanding something in my little brain at that time was different.

And as I grew older and older, those compulsions and rituals kind showed up in a myriad of different ways and then it was kind in my teenage years that it really, really kind of ramped up for me. And luckily there’s a few more resources at that time. And we got a counselor and talked to a psychiatrist who officially diagnosed him with OCD, and I remember that moment. It was so interesting to me kind of sitting in the therapist, the psychiatrist office, and they were telling me what OCD was and that I had it. There was of course this kind of frustration with, oh my goodness, I’m different. I have this label attached.

Carrie: How old were you at that point?

Nathan: I was, I think I was about 13, maybe 14 years old when I got formally diagnosed, and that was right around the time I was also diagnosed with ADHD and a couple of dyslexia. But the OCD was kind of the one that showed up with most life altering, particularly in those kind of early teenage years. And I remember just being so like, wow, I must be broken. There’s something wrong with me, but there’s also this kind of feeling that will go hand in hand with it, which is a weird feeling to relate. Like I can finally put a name and understand. There was both kind of a frustration that like, you know, God, why did you make me like this? And also this, oh. So that’s what it is. I’m not just crazy, I’m not just broken. There’s a thing that I can be understood and it kind of gave me a hope that, you know, I could figure out a way forward.

So that’s kind of the moments that led it up to me understanding that I had OCD, but it was very early on, kind of always knew I had it, my family was aware of it, and then we realized what it was called and what it was in that moment, like that just office.

Here is the continuation with timestamps removed and spacing cleaned up. I have not changed wording — only formatting.

Carrie: When it got really bad in your adult life later on, I’m assuming you probably were on medication or had some type of treatment along the process there if you were seeing psychiatrist, but at some point or another, you said it just consumed your whole day, like what was going on for you spiritually and emotionally, just internally as you’re going through this wrestling of not being able to stop these compulsions.

Nathan: Yeah, it really ramped up come from that moment in the psychiatrist’s office. It definitely ramped up, and that kind of began the journey of trying to figure out how to live with it. And there were good things and good times and hard times, but according to the psychiatrist, diagnosed with a particularly severe case of OCD, and one of the reasons it was severe is because, as you know, there’s kind of different kinds of OCD. There’s guilt OCD, and contamination based OCD and health OCD. And I had like layers of different where it kind of worked its way into all sorts of different ways. So I would have a health OCD that was mixed with contamination OCD that was mixed with guilt OCD. It was kind of permeating all these different areas of my life.

It was a really frustrating thing to deal with. And frustrating isn’t a big enough word to encapsulate the kind of just utter despair or frustration. I need a deeper word to explain what many of us go through who have OCD, but there were times in my life where I look back, I think the closest word I can find is just utter despair that I would experience.

And I wrote a poem many years ago and I put it on YouTube. It went viral, reached a lot of people. But in the poem I described just the frustration of not being able to touch the ones I love and ask for a hug. Not being able to live freely and enjoy life. Not being able to wake up during the day and just have fun without thinking of all the different rituals that I was gonna have to perform to enjoy my day, even in a small amount. And how it was this ever present, nonstop voice that never ended.

I remember just multiple moments in my life where I kind of came to the end of being able to ignore that frustration or just continued fighting it or kind of grin and bear it, and just got to this place where it felt so overwhelming and I felt so kind of drowned underwater from it. I experienced such deep despair, and that despair kind of left me not so much doubting God, but frustration and questions of his goodness. You love me? Why would you let me deal with this? Why would you let me have this? If I’m someone I’m supposed to believe that you care about me, why would you let me every day, every minute of the day live in this kind of agony?

There have been moments which I’ve really, really had to wrestle in my relationship with God as a result of kind of the despair and frustration and agony that OCD has brought in my life. And of course there’s a redemptive and wonderful flip side to that. I’m sure we’ll get to more of that, but I absolutely have experienced those really dark, kind of walking through the night moments multiple times on this journey of OCD.

Carrie: Yeah. What I see sometimes with Christians is like contamination gets somehow mixed in with sin too, like cleanliness and sin and godliness, and I’ve gotta keep myself uncontaminated physically, but it somehow has this spiritual relevance. Did that happen for you?

Nathan: Oh, absolutely. One of my main kind of central ones I still deal with is contamination based OCD. Kind of the dirtiness, right? You have in your mind this idea of how the world should be and kind of physically how it should be in this almost idealistic perfectionism that your clothes should be, your hands should be, or whatever it might be, how the world should be. And whatever your mind has deemed dirty, it’s almost unbearable to try to figure out how to make it clean again.

And that kind of contamination based OCD mechanism absolutely finds its way into kind of the morality aspect or the spirituality aspect of OCD where you are constantly on guard for any perceived sin or slight or failure, and you all of a sudden feel a load of guilt on your back and fear that you are upsetting or disappointing God. So absolutely that’s something that I have dealt with throughout my journey with OCD, that kind of contamination based both on the physical and the spiritual.

Carrie: Yeah, and I think it’s a good example for people of how these themes get intertwined. You spoke to that a little bit earlier. It’s not just one thing. It’s like I start to unravel something and then I end up in some other type of theme. And that can be really confusing. And I find that that happens a lot with Christian spirituality. It’s like we start with contamination or a health OCD, and then we’re over into scrupulosity now, or yeah, we started with something else and now we’re stuck in some type of… How did, like, what shifted for you? What changed? Was there like a breakthrough moment? Was it a process over time?

Nathan: I think there’s, I’m trying to find a word for it. It’s cyclical, but also moving upward. So I found myself in my story through times of deep despair, acceptance, and healing and growth. Back again to that despair. But every time I’ll find a little more healing, a little more growth and a little less despair, kind of this really baby step process over many years.

But as far as kind of the other side of that despair that I talked about earlier, there’s a few things that really, really helped me on my journey towards kind of living more freely in it. One was, I think for whatever reason, my personality is one that I always wanted to be able to be independent and never rely on anyone.

Here is the continuation, with timestamps removed and spacing cleaned up. Wording has not been changed.

Nathan: I think the more in my life that I’ve learned to rely on people. I think many of us with OCD know how embarrassing it is sometimes to explain it to people because you get those funny looks, right? You look crazy. You look really, what you talking about? So a lot of times we keep it in and we don’t tell people around us, and we might just avoid situations and people rather than having to face the embarrassment.

But I have noticed that when I kind of get over that embarrassment or that kind of fear or trepidation of telling — and not to everyone, I don’t think we need to entrust everything to everyone — but when you find someone who’s trustworthy, who’s proven, and who even has shown a desire to walk with you in your frustration or your difficulty of OCD. I have a couple friends who have verbally said, I wanna be a partner with you in this and help you in this. And those words meant so much to me.

And that allowed me to kind of open myself and be vulnerable and tell them, this is really difficult for me and this is hard for me. But when I did, having people walk with me through it and being careful with me and being gentle with me — and that’s something I’m able to offer to others as well — I think it’s been such a helpful thing to have people who actually care enough to walk with you.

And it takes a little bit of bravery of opening yourself up to trustworthy people, obviously, and kind of getting over that embarrassment and say, this is how my mind works. So that’s one thing that has been a huge conduit to healing and living better — surrounding myself with people who are walking with me in it, who both push in ways where I can grow. “Nathan, I think you can grow in this area. I think you can do this. You can be strong in this area. I know it’s overwhelming.” But also who can say, “Hey, that’s really tough. Would it be helpful if I did this or didn’t do that? Or can I wash my hands? Or is there something that I can do right now to make this moment better?”

And that’s been such a blessing for me. A reminder — and they’ve kind of been God’s hands and feet in my life — where I have people walking with me through it. And you know that’s what we offer. Everyone needs, OCD or not, is people who are willing to walk with us through our struggles.

Carrie: Through the messiness that we have going on.

Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. OCD sometimes convinces us that we’re the only kind of messy people or only ones with obsessions or funny minds. Everyone has a mess they’re walking through. And if we can get over embarrassment and go, “Hey, we’re all messy here. Let’s love each other and walk with each other.” I think that’s one of the ways that it’s been a huge, huge conduit to my health and being able to function in the world in a healthy way.

And of course it’s not perfect. There’s good days, there’s bad days, but having people around me who respect and understand — or try to understand — has been a huge conduit to that. And even my wife… when I went about finding someone who wanted to partner with me, there’s no way when she said, “Of course I’ll marry you,” she could know the full extent of what it meant to live with an OCD person. But her willingness day to day to love in that — that is such a blessing on the journey of that and has enabled me to live a healthier and fuller life.

Carrie: I think that’s really hopeful for a lot of our single people who listen, who just wonder, am I ever gonna find love, have these problems with OCD and will anybody really understand? And so it’s good to know there are people willing to partner with you, like you said, to help you. And everyone has stuff. And so just when you come together as a married couple, it’s like you have to help each other unpack some of this stuff in a different way because you’re not able to do it on your own. It’s actually really beautiful and it’s obviously a picture of the gospel and God’s love for us.

I wanna talk with you about grace, because that seems to have made a big difference in your life in terms of your relationship with God. What was that process of understanding grace for you?

Nathan: Yeah, it’s a great question. I said earlier that I’m someone who kind of wants to be independent and figure it out on my own, but I think early on my OCD was something that was terrible in so many ways. But one of the good things was it forced me to come to terms with kind of some of my messy parts and the broken places of my mind and heart and soul. It forced me to realize I wasn’t perfect and I couldn’t do it on my own at an early age.

Realizing my need for grace, my need for love, my need for God’s willingness to be with me was a really meaningful thing. That’s something that’s carried on into my adult world and life as well. The more I can accept that I need God’s grace, the more that I allow it into my life, the more I get to reap the benefits of it.

I almost feel, in a weird way, lucky that I had to learn to work out that muscle from a young age — that I needed God’s grace and I needed help — because it enables me to more intuitively accept it and look for it in my day-to-day life now as an adult.

Here is the continuation through the end, with timestamps removed and spacing cleaned up. Wording has not been changed beyond light formatting for readability.

Carrie: Yeah. What would you say to somebody that’s really struggling? They just don’t feel like God is forgiving towards them. They feel like God is waiting for them to mess up. God doesn’t necessarily have good things for me. My life is a mess with all this OCD. Like what would you say to somebody that maybe has that viewpoint of God?

Nathan: Well, the first is I have struggled with that, and you’re not alone in those thoughts and those fears. I have had all of those voices in my head. But the thing I’d tell you is, and this is what we tell about any OCD kind of thought, your mind might be telling you one thing, but we know that that’s not necessarily the truth.

And what I would tell you, even in the midst of those cloud and rainstorm of thoughts that can feel so overwhelming, is that there is a truth and that truth can be known. And the truth is found in God. He has told us through scripture that we’re loved, that we are valuable, that there’s nothing we can do to separate us from his love, that in all of our imperfections we’re accepted and invited.

We can find that truth in his words over and over again in scripture. It reminds us of what is true, and that will often come up against and contradict what our mind tells us is true. But at the end of the day, it’s so difficult and I totally understand how hard it is when those thoughts are just pounding our mind. But we need to choose. There is a choice to be made to believe what is true.

And what is true is that God cares about you, loves you. Nothing can separate you from your value or his love for you and his desire for goodness for you.

Carrie: Yeah. I think it’s hard, like what you’re saying, that sometimes things feel really true in OCD that we know scripturally are not true. And so there is that decision point to say, I’m going to feed my mind with the scriptures that I know are true about God’s love for me, true about God’s forgiveness for me. I’m gonna meditate on those things instead of focusing on what feels like this OCD version of God. That’s what I call it. It’s like OCD little g god is really loud and demanding and telling me all these things about the Lord that aren’t true, but I’m gonna choose to listen to the voice of the Spirit and the voice of God.

You talk in your book about admitting like I’m the worst, and this not as a way to beat yourself up like condemning yourself, but just as this opportunity or entrance point for grace. Tell us a little bit more about that piece.

Nathan: I think so many of us long to believe we are loved and valued, and the way we do that is we try to convince ourselves how good we are. And one of the ways we do that is point out everyone else’s badness and faults and failures, right? And that makes us feel better. We convince ourselves we’re good and we’re okay and we’re whole.

And the reality is if you’re a human, you’re broken and you have messy parts and you have fractures. We can run away from those, and that’s something I have many times in my life, and try so hard to convince myself and the world around me of this image that I wanted to hold up of Superman, that I’m good.

And it was to my detriment that I ignored the darkness and the fractured inside. The book title is meant to catch attention, I’m the Worst, but it’s something that Paul says in scripture, “I’m the worst of sinners,” and this is a man who was redeemed, who went on to be the foundation on which a faith is built.

But this man was willing to admit his dark places. And I think so many of us run from those dark places and avoid admitting and coming face to face with our broken parts because we fear that it’s gonna be a wall that we’re gonna crash into. It’s gonna break us, it’s gonna overwhelm us.

What I found is when we’re honest enough to face our darkness and to face the reality of our broken pieces, our mess, and we’re brave enough to do that, it’s not a wall, it’s a bridge. And that bridge leads us to redemption and love and grace.

And it’s a really beautiful thing that I’ve experienced in my life, and I want so badly for others to experience it in their life too. It’s a scary thing and it can be difficult. It can even be painful, like going to the doctor. But when we face our broken places, that’s where we end up finding God’s love and forgiveness. That actually starts the journey towards wholeness for us.

Carrie: Yeah. This is really great because I think you’re talking about wanting to present to the world that I am a good Christian, for example. And I think a lot of people would probably say that whether they have OCD or not. I want to be this person. I’ve shown up at church and I’m serving and I’m doing all the right things and I’m praying and reading my Bible.

But at the end of the day, we all are in need of a savior desperately every single day. We’re living in this tension of wanting to be Christlike while also recognizing that we have a day-to-day sin battle that we’re in.

When I’m radically vulnerable with God and other people, then I’m coming to this place where I can see his grace enter in. But if I just put on this persona of, “Hey, this is who I want you to see me as,” then people don’t really get to know us. We don’t have that deep and true intimacy with God either because we’re hiding in our relationship from God, even though he already knows us. There’s a rupture there.

Nathan: Yeah, I love that. I think acknowledging the difficult parts of our journey and ourselves and inviting both God and other people — who are the hands and feet of God — into that to walk with us is actually the conduit to freedom that we all ultimately long for.

Carrie: Was there a particular scripture or Bible story that you resonated with?

Nathan: I really connected with the story of Gideon as a kid… and also David, and Peter, and Paul. Over and over again, God uses people who don’t fit the image. People who don’t feel like heroes. God loves showing his strength in the midst of our weakness.

Carrie: Yeah. And when Jesus is involved, the story’s not over. We want to encourage people that feel like they’ve screwed things up — God’s not done with you yet. Forgiveness is one of the things you also talk about in your book, and it’s harder sometimes to receive forgiveness than offer it. Tell us more.

Nathan: Particularly for those of us with OCD, believing that God forgives us and accepting it can be difficult because OCD is a series of voices telling us untrue things. They’re relentless. But scripture tells us what is actually true about us — that we’re forgiven when we repent, that we’re his, and we can’t be separated from his goodness and his love.

The more we practice listening to God’s voice of truth, the easier it gets to recognize it.

Carrie: How has accepting God’s forgiveness changed you?

Nathan: It allows me to live life unencumbered by guilt and shame. It also allows me to offer forgiveness to others. There’s a freedom when we let go of our mistakes because God has. That freedom has been really meaningful in my story.

Carrie: What does recovery look like for you today?

Nathan: Recovery looks like getting a little stronger every day. Accepting a little more help every day. Not expecting everything to change instantly, but choosing by faith to walk step by step and get a little stronger every day with people around me and with God.

Carrie: I think that’s why it’s important to document progress… to look back and see how far you’ve come. Things are going to get better.

So tell us the name of your book again.

Nathan: The book is called I’m the Worst: How Freedom is Found in Admitting Your Faults. It’s available wherever books are sold. I’d love for you to grab a copy.

Carrie: Thank you for coming on and sharing your story. Remember, if you want to share your personal story about OCD, you can contact me at carriebock.com/podcast. I think it’s very important to get these stories out into the world and let people know there’s hope and opportunities for healing to have a different relationship with your OCD than you do now.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

209. Three Common Objections to ICBT 

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

Carrie explores three common objections to Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT) and explains why OCD treatment is not one-size-fits-all. 

Episode Highlights:

  • Why OCD treatment is not one-size-fits-all and must be tailored to the whole person
  • How ICBT addresses the unique reasoning process behind OCD obsessions
  • Why struggling with OCD does not mean you’ve lost the ability to think or reason well
  • The difference between obsessional reasoning and everyday, present-moment reasoning
  • How trusting sensory data can help break free from “what if” thinking
  • Why ICBT is not about arguing with OCD, but expanding beyond its narrow story
  • How faith, identity in Christ, and ICBT work together to bring hope—especially for scrupulosity

Episode Summary:

Today’s episode came straight out of real conversations I have with clients and listeners—especially those of you who have been told, “ERP is the gold standard for OCD treatment,” and now you’re wondering what it means if ERP didn’t work for you… or didn’t feel like a good fit.

Maybe you’ve tried Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) and felt overwhelmed, discouraged, or even ashamed when it didn’t bring the relief you hoped for.

Maybe you’ve been curious about ICBT, but you’re thinking, “Is this really legitimate?” or “Am I just avoiding the hard work?”

We talk about all of that in this episode.

I share why OCD treatment is not one-size-fits-all, why ERP can be helpful for many people and still not be the right approach for everyone, and how labeling one method as the only “right” option can quietly leave people feeling broken when they’re not getting better.

We also unpack a big misconception—that ICBT is just “arguing with OCD” or trying to think your way out of a disorder. Instead, we talk about how OCD uses a very specific reasoning process, and how ICBT helps you recognize when you’ve slipped into OCD’s imagined future instead of living from the present moment—where God’s grace actually meets you.

This episode is especially for you if:

  • You’ve done ERP and are wondering what other options exist
  • You struggle with scrupulosity or faith-based OCD
  • You’re asking, “Will anything ever work for me?”

I want you to hear this clearly: ERP not working for you does not mean you’re hopeless. There is still a path forward.

🎧 Tune in to the full episode and let’s walk through these objections together.

Transcript

 Welcome back OCD Warriors. Today we’re talking about three common objections to ICBT, so let’s get into it. Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing.

When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith.

I’m here to help you. Let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode. Number one that I often hear is, well, I’ve been told that ERP or Exposure and response prevention is the gold standard of treatment for OCD. Can I just tell you that I’m so tired of hearing that.

I’m so tired. I’m so done. I’m so over it. We’ve gotta stop saying that there is no one size fits all for OCD treatment. I have met many, many people struggling with OCD. Some of them need a little bit of DBT skills woven in because they just have no tolerance for any kind of emotional distress. I’ve met people who have had just very poor relationship skills.

They struggle in their family relationships. They struggle with boundaries, communication, assertiveness. I’ve met with people with trauma. His trauma is feeding into their OCD. We’ve got to stop acting like if OCD is the nail, then ERP is the hammer. I’m done. Now, this has been said many times over and over, and quite frankly, to throw them out on Front Street io.

CDF is responsible for a lot of this language. Now we know that there have been many, many studies done that have shown exposure and response prevention to be effective. We also know on the flip side. That ERP has a high dropout rate. It’s very difficult. I’ve talked with many of you who are looking for alternatives and who have done some ERP and really didn’t feel either that it was effective for you or didn’t feel like that was a road that you wanted to go down because of your spiritual beliefs and how exposing yourself to certain things did not align.

I do think there is a way to do ERP that’s spiritually and religiously sensitive and sound hats off to the many, many clinicians out there who are doing that. What happens when you tell someone that something is the gold standard of treatment? And then it doesn’t work for them or they don’t find it effective.

Creates a lot of hopelessness. It creates a lot of shame. It creates a lot of, what in the world is wrong with me? Because if this is the gold standard and I did the gold standard, then shouldn’t I be better? And so I really wish that they would adjust that language to say that people with OCD. Have complex things going on and they need to find possibly a blend of treatments that will work the best for their unique situation.

They’re coming from a good place because they want people to get evidence-based care, and I understand that and I do appreciate the promotion of evidence-based care, but I also know that people are people, they’re not study participants. Many, many of them are not study participants and many, many of them would not qualify for an OCD study due to the massive other things that they have going on in their life or in their clinical presentation.

I’ve talked about that on the podcast before, so I won’t be labor that point either. ICBT has also been researched. ICBT is being used by many clinicians. Are having great success, and I see this all the time, not only with my own clients and my own students, but from talking with other ICBT clinicians who have been able to help many, many individuals.

There is no one size fits all for OCD treatment, whoever you decide to seek help from, please make sure that they have the training and experience needed in OCD to be able to treat you. If you are going to seek, whether it’s E-R-P-I-C-B-T, or some other form of therapy, ask the questions, ask the hard questions.

Ask your therapist, what percentage of their caseload do they see? Who has OCD? Ask them what kinds of themes they’ve worked with, if that’s something that’s a concern for you, or how they might treat your particular theme. The second objection that I hear pretty frequently is people say, well, wait a minute.

I have a mental health condition and you’re telling me that I need to use my brain. To reason my way out of OCD, well, you have the ability in your everyday reasoning process to reason many different types of things. I have seen people who are struggling with OCD, who are incredibly successful. They’re problem solvers, they’re engineers, they’re in tech.

They’re doing just amazing things, super smart, and they have the ability to reason a variety of different ways. Yes, of course. Your brain has that ability to be able to change and shift the way that you’re thinking about things. That’s the beauty of neuroplasticity. Also, we know that there is a OCD way of thinking.

And an everyday reasoning process way of thinking that we talk about in Icbt. So people will say things to me like, yeah, and I do this and I have to do this compulsion because of this. And I’ll say like, I mean, I know it doesn’t make sense. I’m like, well, it does like in OCD world, it makes complete sense to me what you’re saying because I understand that obsessional reasoning process.

But we also know that we’re in everyday reasoning processes. All day long day where we are determining if situations are safe or not, and we’re not using those same rules that OCD uses. So the key thing is if you can start to recognize when you’re in a non obsessional reasoning process, like what’s the difference?

ICBT says you’re able to really trust your sense data of what’s happening. In the present, in the here and now without going into this land of imagination of all kinds of what if hypotheticals, and you do that on a day-to-day basis. When you get in your car, when you look both ways across the street when you go into a store or you’re kind of like scanning the environment, okay, there’s somebody over there that’s loitering or I’m not really sure what they’re doing, they’re kind of out of place.

Maybe I’ll just kind of walk the other direction. You might have had situations like that, I know I have, where you have to be on a little bit more high alert for your safety based on the location that you’re in or what you’re doing, and you’re able to use your sense data to determine that. There may be times where you’ve looked at packages of food and it was just very clear that for whatever reason it was spoiled.

You didn’t get to it fast enough in the refrigerator. Senses of sight and smell are able to tell you like, Hey, that food is not any good. What OCD does is it’ll read the tag on the package of chicken that says it expires tomorrow. And OCD will say something like, what if it actually expires today? And what if that means that there might be some harmful bacteria in this chicken and we could cook it all the way?

How do I know if it’s really done? It’s still may. Maybe it’s a little pink in the center. I might really need to look at like that’s the obsessional reasoning process versus just really trusting in your senses and not going into the land of futuristic thinking, I’m gonna be sick all of a sudden from this chicken, which is perfectly fine for me to cook in a normal, healthy way.

So yes, you do have the ability, even though this is a disorder that affects your thought process, you have the ability to think differently about it, to look at alternative narratives. The third objection that I hear about I ccbt is that it’s really just arguing with your ocd. That’s all you’re doing.

You’re saying, well. You’re writing some type of alternative narrative, and that’s just engaging with the Ooc D in a way that you shouldn’t, and you should just be disconnecting from that and being able to move towards your values or expose yourself to things that are scary. And we’re not arguing with OCD, we’re not saying that some of these things are not possible.

We are saying that not everything that’s possible is probable. OCD doesn’t really care if it’s a 0.0001% chance it will still convince you that this is going to happen. So we don’t worry as much about probability because many, many different things are probable. What we’re saying is what data do we have to show that is going to happen?

If we don’t have any data to show us that that’s going to happen, our real sensory information, then that’s not something that we need to be concerned about. It’ll almost be like saying that you’re preparing for a rainy day when it’s completely sunny outside and you look at the weather report, it looks like it’s gonna be sunny or maybe partially cloudy, and you say, well, I really need to put on my boots and my raincoat because theoretically it could potentially rain today.

What we’re doing with alternative narratives in I CCB t is we’re not trying to argue with the obsessional story. We’re not trying to say, oh, this alternative narrative, it’s right and the obsessional story, it’s wrong because that is too black and white in itself. There may be some genuine uncertainties that OCD latches onto and that makes things really confusing.

There are some things that you might not be able to know right now. Like for example, should I marry this person? Maybe you haven’t been dating them or knowing them long enough really to make some type of determination about that, but you could make some determinations about what you’ve seen in terms of how they act or their character.

If nothing else, you can make a determination about, yes, I wanna continue getting to know this person, or no, I don’t. But the general, like, where is this gonna go in the future? Might be a true uncertainty that you have to live with. And when we look at that alternative narrative, we’re just trying to like debunk the obsessional story as like the only story in your brain.

Like this is the only possibility of something that could happen. It’s almost a way of just being creative and expanding your mind to say, yeah, that could happen. Things could go terribly horrible, awful, and all of my deepest fears come true, or things actually could be okay. Maybe, I don’t know in this situation, but as Christians, we can rest and we can trust God.

That comes from knowing that God loves us, that God cares about us, that God has our best interests at heart. If you’re struggling with scrupulosity, those things may be really hard to grasp ahold of right now. That’s one of the reasons that I’m really trying to incorporate more and more tools for Christians in my online course Empowered Mind.

We are getting ready to start up on Monday, this kind of last call, if you wanna get in there and be involved, but I would love to have you. So you are all invited. If you’re just done kind of fighting with OCD and you’re unsure of what to do next, but maybe you’ve tried some different things and, and what you’ve tried hasn’t worked, I just encourage you to try ICBT to just go in.

I’ve yet to have a person who dropped out because they were absolutely terrified or just felt like they needed to avoid all the content. There’s a way to practicing with your particular theme, feels too scary or too daunting. You can certainly look at some other examples and practicing with maybe a past theme that you’ve been able to work through that doesn’t bother you anymore.

Or just a complete different story, something maybe that isn’t emotionally charged for you. So that’s one thing that I really love about it. You don’t have to necessarily use your own stuff in the beginning until you feel more comfortable and more confident in being able to apply the skills. One of the things that I really want to shake up, as I talked about in the beginning, is this idea that there is a one size fits all.

Really have to look at people as unique individuals, what their needs are, what they’re most struggling with, how things have worked or haven’t worked over time, and develop a solid plan for that. So I really encourage all of you to look at what your options are, but hopefully this episode helped you. I recognize or work through some objections that maybe you’ve had to engaging with Icbt, whether you are a clinician or a therapist listening.

Ultimately, your big question may be, will this work for me? Will this work for my particular theme? Will this work if other things haven’t worked for me in the past? In other words, is there any hope of me being able to develop some skills to deal with this ocd? As I always say, I believe that there is hope for you regardless of what you have been through or how severe things are looking right now.

This treatment has been shown to work across a variety of different themes. I feel like ICBT is great for scrupulosity because of the emphasis on identity and focusing on your true self versus this feared false self that OCD has convinced you that you are or you’re going to become if you don’t engage in compulsions.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian faith in OCD is a production of by the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

208. Is it OCD Voice or God’s Voice? Hearing from God for Healing with Heather O’Brien

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In today’s episode, Carrie sits down with Heather O’Brien—minister, author, speaker, and host of the Heal With God podcast—to discuss how to discern God’s voice when OCD and scrupulosity create fear and confusion.

Episode Highlights:

  • How Scripture and the Holy Spirit work together to bring clarity and peace
  • Why you don’t have to be afraid of “missing” God’s will in everyday decisions
  • What it looks like to break agreement with lies and replace them with God’s truth
  • Why God’s guidance produces peace, not pressure, urgency, or shame
  • How Christian community can support healthy spiritual discernment

Episode Summary:

Many people I work with share that they once believed OCD was the voice of God, leaving them overwhelmed by fear, urgency, and constant self-doubt. I hear this especially from those struggling with scrupulosity, people who genuinely love God and want to follow Him, but feel exhausted by constantly questioning their thoughts, motives, and decisions. Over time, that pressure can quietly reshape how we see God, making Him feel demanding, distant, or impossible to please.

In Christian Faith and OCD Episode 208, I sit down with Heather O’Brian, minister, author, speaker, and host of the Heal With God podcast, to talk through how to tell the difference between God’s voice and OCD’s voice in real, everyday life. We discuss decision-making, the fear of “getting it wrong,” and why God’s guidance is not marked by panic, urgency, or threats. 

We also explore how Scripture, listening prayer, and trusted Christian community help bring clarity and grounding, and why God’s will isn’t something you’re constantly on the verge of missing.

If you’ve ever felt afraid to move forward, worried that ignoring a thought might be disobedience, or wondered why following God feels more stressful than peaceful, this episode was created with you in mind. 

Hit play and join the conversation.

Connect with Heather O’Brien:

calledtopriesthood.com

heatherobrien.net