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Author: Carrie Bock

Carrie Bock is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Smyrna, TN who helps people get to a deeper level of healing without compromising their faith. She specializes in working with Christians struggling with OCD who have also experienced childhood trauma, providing intensive therapy for individuals who want to heal at a faster pace than traditional therapy.

55. Surviving the Holidays with Anxiety

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 55. Surviving the Holidays with Anxiety

I’m going solo today to talk about how to survive the Holidays when you have anxiety.

  • Polite ways especially for introverts to leave a party early.
  • Tips to reduce stress while traveling
  • How to reduce stress around Thanksgiving and Christmas
  • Saying “no” to gatherings you’re not comfortable with.
  • How to budget for the holidays and control your spending 
  • Keeping the Holidays simple yet meaningful.

Related episode: Thriving as an Introvert in an Extrovert World with Holley Gerth


If you enjoy the podcast and want to support what we’re doing, or if you’re looking for self-help materials to assist you on your journey of managing your anxiety and OCD in healthier ways. Audio teachings, relaxation exercises, and my book on how to find a therapist are provided for self-help via monthly subscription, go to www.patreon.com/hopeforanxietyandocd
Subscribe to our newsletter: https://hopeforanxietyandocd.com/

Follow us on Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/hopeforanxietyandocdpodcast
and like our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/hopeforanxietyandocd for the latest updates and sneak peeks.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

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Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 55. If I’m looking at my calendar correctly, this episode is going to be coming out a week before Thanksgiving. I wanted to let you know that at the podcast we do take off the week of Thanksgiving and the week of Christmas. So I don’t post episodes on those weeks before we get into celebrating these important holidays towards end of the year. 

I wanted to talk with you about surviving the holidays when you have anxiety because there are specific challenges that people with anxiety face in regards to parties, gatherings, gift giving that it can really increase your stress this time of year. And I wanna help you really reduce some of that stress so that you can have a restful positive holiday season. 

If you would consider yourself an introvert and you haven’t listened to episode 19, Thriving as an introvert in an Extrovert world, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. Holly Gerth and myself talk about surviving big gatherings and parties as an introvert. And that’s the first thing I wanted to talk with you about is when you have anxiety, sometimes these large gatherings, even if there are family gatherings, there may be extended family that you don’t see very often. Or you may be gathering with say like your husbands, coworkers, and you don’t know them, obviously because you don’t work with them every day. Sometimes those types of environments can be a little bit more anxiety-provoking. Definitely go back and listen to that episode If you haven’t. 

Some of the tips we talked about in there were take an extrovert with you to the party, get there in the beginning, because then you can kind of slowly acclimate yourself to the environment and see people come in versus coming into an already overwhelming situation.

Knowing your limits and knowing when it’s time to go is important. And if you’re with, um, a friend, spouse or erode with somebody, definitely knowing how to communicate to that other person that you would like to leave is important. Sometimes you may have a code, word, or phrase that you want to use with your spouse like “Hey, don’t we need to get by such and such store before it closes. Oh, we really gotta get home and let the dog out.” I’m sure that you can come up with something where you and your spouse will be on the same page and kind of be in line with each other, like, yeah, we’re ready to go. 

I find when I go to large gatherings, sometimes just taking a moment to sit down, maybe away from where the big crowd of people is that really seems to help me in particular. So that may be something that helps you just standing requires a little bit more energy. I know that that sounds silly in itself, but you may just need to kind of take a miniature time out from all the activity you could go to the bathroom. You could step outside if there’s a, you know, indoor-outdoor element to this gather.

My overall point is that it’s good to have a plan going into some of these social interactions to help make them less overwhelming for you. You may not want to plan too much before the gathering so that you have time to rest and relax a little bit versus rushing from this thing to that thing, to that.

If you’re traveling for the holidays. One of the things that I have found the most helpful, whenever I take a trip and I understand you can’t always do this, but if you’re a highly sensitive person, introvert person with anxiety, It’s helpful to have a half a day to a day before your trip. And then definitely a day when you get back before you have to jump into your work or school routine, a lot of times we’re just. It’s like we’re out the office door and then we’ve gotta go straight to catch the plane and then get back in the Sunday night before gotta go back to work on Monday. That’s highly stressful. Try to give yourself a buffer on the edges of your trips to be able to get things in order. You know, there’s always these last-minute things that we end up having to do before a trip or after a trip. 

We have laundry and different things that we have to do. Give yourself a little bit of a buffer of time if you can, if you’re going to reduce your stress around Thanksgiving and Christmas, you want to prioritize the gatherings and parties that are most important for you to attend.

I know there are some people, stepfamily situations and maybe there’s stepparents on both sides of the family and they’re ending up going to three and four Thanksgiving gatherings. That’s just a lot, that’s a lot to deal with. It’s a lot to bring food for, and that can be too much for your system.

And so some people would say, well, I mean, but, but we just have to, I mean, the family is expecting us and. We have to be there. And I would really argue that and say, you can see your family any day of the year. A lot of times, unless you’re traveling and they’re out of town, then that’s not necessarily the case.

Obviously, we have family that’s in Florida, but we can’t see them any day. But if it’s a situation where maybe you can plan to have more quality time with those family members around a different date or where it doesn’t have to be holiday related so that you’re not rushing from, “Okay, well, we’ve got mom’s Thanksgiving.” That’s from noon to three, and then we’ve got dad’s Thanksgiving, which is from four to six and we have to drive in between pick up a pumpkin pie on the way over there. All of that just can be very stressful for you. Let’s talk for a moment about challenging family relationships. I’m not gonna assume that you get along well with everyone in your family.

And so some of those relationships may cause you stress. It’s important to know just internally within yourself, how much of certain people that you can handle. And what I mean by that is that if, you know, you can only handle a day or two at a time around a certain person don’t plan to spend five days with them. That’s just a recipe for disaster. 

Oftentimes it goes back to, we do things out of obligation or we feel bad, but you have to know within yourself like what you are capable of. It’s important to be. Gracious towards other people as much as possible. And we have to love everyone, but I understand that there are going to be people that rub you the wrong way. And you may not like all of your family members or your in-laws or other people that you’re interacting with in gatherings. 

It’s understanding that you are an adult and you have a choice. You can decide that this Thanksgiving or this Christmas that you want to run off to boa Bora, just you and your best friend or you and your spouse. And you do not have to go and do all the things that you normally go and do. I worked with a client on this one year and it was incredibly freeing for her. She didn’t believe me at first that she could say no to some of the family gatherings, but then decided to go away for the holiday instead and see her family at different times where she could really invest more time in those relationships.

Have more quality, depth time versus just seeing this family member for a few minutes and that one for a few minutes, while they’re running off to do something else. Letting go of the half twos is important. So many times we convince ourselves that we just have to do things that we don’t have to do.

I remember there was one time that they had moved a holiday event. I was planning on going to with the foster children. I think it was a Thanksgiving event and we completely missed it. I did not go. And I wanted to. However, what I realized was that it wasn’t the end of the world that I missed that event.

Yes. I was a little disappointed and yes, there were some people that I was wanting to see and would enjoy their company. But at the end of the day, the world did not crash down because I missed one holiday event. It was okay. Don’t be afraid to say. If you know that what someone is asking you to do is going to be too much for you.

We all have different limitations at different times in our life, and sometimes we’re going through things and we can only do so much. And it’s okay. It’s really okay to acknowledge that to ourselves. It’s okay to communicate that to other people as. No is a complete sentence. That’s something that I tell my clients regularly when they’re having trouble saying no, you don’t have to give a lengthy explanation.

You can just say no or no. Thank you. So when you’re prioritizing your gatherings and parties, it’s very easy to get overloaded. I talked about the step-family situation, but there’s also just situations where you may have a Christmas party for your work Christmas party for your spouse’s work. The church is throwing a big Christmas production over here, and then, you know, your, your kid’s school has a function over there.

You really just need to put everything on the calendar and evaluate it and say, okay, Are we really able to give our time and energy to these things. Maybe we really want to invest more time and energy into our kids’ function and maybe just make an appearance at the work party. You know, you know how that is just kind of, yeah, we’re gonna show up a little bit later, say hi to a few people. Be a part of maybe a gift exchange and then head out and that’s okay. 

It’s okay. That you don’t have to be 110% for all of these events decide what is most important to you that you’re putting on your calendar. Let go of expectations. That’s going to be a perfect Thanksgiving or perfect Christmas. 

The reality is that we’re in a COVID world.

Still. We were hoping that we would be out of it before this holiday season, but this is where we understand that ships are sitting in ports right now, and they’re not able to get there or unload items. There may be Christmas presents that you want to buy for your kids, certain toys that aren’t available. And your kid is not gonna die if they don’t get that perfect toy on Christmas morning, you know, Santa Maye have to write them an IOU shipping delayed will come in January. I know there have been times in the past for Christmas, where I really wanted to give people little gifts, packages of cookies. And I spent so much time and energy in my kitchen making hundreds of cookies and cake balls and all of this type of stuff.

And I look back on that and I was. That was just for that season of my life. When I had foster children, that was a little much, I was trying to do a little bit too much and went overboard and now granted people did appreciate it. And I do try to do nice things for, for other people that I know around Christmas.

But my point is, whatever you do it doesn’t have to be perfect. And it’s not going to be perfect most likely, especially with some of the challenges that we’re dealing with in our world today. The last thing I want to encourage you with, which is also very important, is to have a budget and stick to it.

Oftentimes people really overextend themselves at Christmas, go into all kinds of debt. It’s just not healthy. It causes us a lot of financial stress and in turn emotional stress. One thing I learned this year is that in the Philippines, employees have something called the 13th-month payment, where they get basically an extra paycheck towards the end of the year.

And that helps pay for Christmas and things like that. End-of-the-year bills. Maybe I thought this is an incredible idea. Everyone should have this. However, in America, we don’t have that as a standard level of pay and so forth. So we have to create our own 13th. We have to make, be diligent about setting aside some for savings every single month so that when you get towards the end of the year, you have some money to spend on Christmas presents for the family and so forth.

If you sit down and budget, you know how much you’re going to pay for Christmas gifts, who it’s actually important to buy a Christmas gift for? I think sometimes we have this perception that we have to go overboard and buy a gift for every single person that we interact with. And obviously, that’s not the case, but sometimes we put this pressure on ourselves or we think, “Oh, I’ve got a bad Christmas gift for that person.”

But because they’re gonna get me a gift and there’s this, this obligation and emotional stress, you know, I can’t think. Of a single time that I’ve ever been offended, that I didn’t get a Christmas gift from someone. I’m pretty sure there probably have been times where I received an unexpected gift from someone that I, I didn’t think that they were gonna give me a gift, but you know, it, we’re just in a spirit of giving.

And that’s the important thing to remember. It shouldn’t be out of like obligation or we have to, you know, some families to, to help with finances will maybe like draw names and each person gets a different person in the, in the immediate family or the extended family. And then that way we’re reducing the amount of money that we’re spending around Christmas.

And we’re also able to get good gifts for each other. I think sometimes when it comes to holiday spending like we way overthink things or we make them more complicated than they actually have to be. So have a budget stick to it. That’s gonna reduce a lot of your stress. I know it’s a little late to be saying to save money, you know, all throughout the year, but now, you know, going into next year, save a little bit of money every month for Christmas, it will help you out tremendously.

You can put that towards presents, towards travel. If you’re having to travel with family. It’ll be great. And finally, let’s take the opportunity this Thanksgiving and this Christmas to not forget what it’s all about. We can get so caught up in making the food, attending the gathering, spending time with people that we miss the point.

Thanksgiving is an opportunity for us to be thankful to God for everything that he has blessed us with this year. And to be thankful for our friends and family that we celebrate with Christmas is an opportunity for us to celebrate Christ. Birth is an opportunity for us to reflect on the fact that he chose to come into the world in the humble way possible as a baby.

To be a part of our world and eventually give his life for us. 

Don’t get lost in the commercialization that you forget, the simple and that you forget what’s most important. If you have children talk with them regularly about why you’re celebrating these holidays, read the Christmas story, focus on those things more than opening presence.

Find opportunities to give to others who have less than you. I think this is such an important part of the Christmas season. One thing that I’ve done for the last several years is adopted. A foster child through Casa to be able to buy Christmas gifts for them. And I know that when I was a foster parent, this was super helpful for us to be able to have other people who would buy Christmas gifts for our foster children.

And I know it meant a lot to them to receive those gifts while they were going through a hard time of being separated from their family members. For the last few years, I’ve bought Christmas gifts for teenagers. And oftentimes they want things like name-brand clothing because they just wanna fit in like every other child that they’re interacting with and going to school with.

And sometimes they want really simple things. Like hair ties. You may be, you may be in a really difficult situation this Christmas and. Not feel like you have a whole lot to give, but I’m sure that even in those situations, there’s something small that you can do for someone else. Even if it’s just take them a meal or bake them some cookies, just to let them know that you care and that you love them.

Christmas is about love, joy, and giving to others. Let’s not lose celebrating our Savior. Let’s not lose our focus in the midst of all the activity. 

I hope this episode was helpful for you. I really appreciate you taking the time to listen. I want to encourage you to get on our email list. You can do that on our homepage@wwwdothopeforanxietyandocd.com towards the top.

You can put in your email address and you’ll actually get a audio relaxation to listen to as well as a gift for signing. I’m trying to email out once a week information about our upcoming episodes and other things that are happening with the podcast. So don’t miss out and sign up for our email list today. Thank you so much for listening. 

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

54. Medications for Anxiety and OCD with Jennifer McGlothin, psyNP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 54. Medications for Anxiety and OCD with Jennifer McGlothin, psyNP

Jennifer McGlothin, a psychiatric nurse practitioner and I have an informative conversation on medications for anxiety and OCD 

  • What is the role of a psychiatric nurse practitioner? Can they prescribe medication for mental health? Are they allowed to diagnose?
  • What patients should know when they are starting a new medication or switching medication.
  • How long does it take for psychiatric medication to work?
  • Managing mental health medications
  • The Importance of communication between patient and health professional

Related links and resources:

Jennifer McGlothin, psyNP


If you enjoy the podcast and want to support what we’re doing, or if you’re looking for self-help materials to assist you on your journey of managing your anxiety and OCD in healthier ways. Audio teachings, relaxation exercises, and my book on how to find a therapist are provided for self-help via monthly subscription, go to www.patreon.com/hopeforanxietyandocdSubscribe to our newsletter: https://hopeforanxietyandocd.com/

Follow us on Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/hopeforanxietyandocdpodcast
and like our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/hopeforanxietyandocd 
for the latest updates and sneak peeks.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 54. I have been wanting for a little while to talk about medication as an option for anxiety and OCD. So that is what we are going to do today. I know that a lot of people have questions about whether or not they should get on medication. Whether they should look at that as an option or whether they should stay away from it.

So hopefully this episode will give you a little bit more information to help you make an informed decision about whether or not you want to pursue that as an option and maybe dispel some myths that people have about medication for mental health conditions. So today on the show I have with me Jennifer McGlothin, who is a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner at Safe Harbor in Murfreesboro, Tennessee.

Carrie: Welcome to the show. 

Jennifer: Thank you so much for inviting me. 

Carrie: Tell us a little bit about your background and what you do on a day-to-day basis. 

Jennifer: So I have been doing psychiatry since around 2009. I graduated from Vanderbilt with my Masters in Psychiatric Nursing, and I’ve always been in a clinic setting, primarily community mental health until August of 2020, which is when my friend and I opened our own private practice. As far as psychiatric nurse practitioners in the medical world, we’re primary utilize is as medication management, we have the ability to do therapy. But that’s not really where we sort of fall on a day-to-day basis. When I was in a clinic that was my all day, every day was just seeing people back to back doing medication management.

And so August 2020, sort of out of necessity and God’s guidance, my friend and I opened our own private practice with the idea of being able to start to treat patients the way that we knew it needed to happen and to be able to provide a safe setting that they could come in and tell their stories and be heard and get the treatment that they needed.

Now day-to-day is a little bit different because we’re an owner of that, but we still see patients every day, but then that’s just sort of peppered in with administrative stuff of running the business. It sort of depends on the day whether we have new patients or just return patients, some days are telehealth some days are in the office, just kind of, depending on what the patient’s preference is at this point, especially since COVID has kind of changed the face of psychiatry telehealth is utilized a lot more. But our primary role and expertise, I would say probably, is medication management. 

Carrie: Okay and I think some people get very confused as well by the terms psychologist, psychiatrist, licensed counselor. And so it’s important for people, sometimes people will contact me and ask me about medication. I’m like, hey, I’m not a medical doctor, that’s not what I do. I don’t have that training. So typically the psychologist is someone with a Ph.D., but they don’t prescribe medication, and psychiatrists or psychiatric nurse practitioners are medication providers. So this is for people who are kind of wondering about some of those titles or maybe confused. I know some of the terms sound similar and so it’s easy to get that confusion there. So I know that even though I’m a therapist, clients will certainly talk with me about medication. Should I get on medication? Should I not? Maybe they’ve had experiences with medication in the past. Maybe it was helpful, not helpful, so forth. And I think it’s understandable. Sometimes people look at anxiety as a physical condition. Some people look at it as a mental health condition and from what you’re seeing, sometimes people may pursue that medication route first.

Whereas others for anxiety, whereas other people may pursue a therapeutic route. First, I would imagine that you have some people that come in there that are being seen for anxiety, but then you start to ask more questions and identify that what they’re really dealing with is OCD. Can you tell us about that?

Jennifer: It depends. It really runs the gamut, whether they, when they come in to see us. Sometimes, they’re treatment-naive, which means that they’ve never seen a mental health professional before, or sometimes they’ve been doing mental health for 20 years. And once you start asking questions, we are asking questions about all disorders really. So we’re asking about depression. We’re asking about bipolar disorder. We’re asking about anger. We’re talking about sleep and appetite. We’re really looking for, what could the potential diagnoses be? Sometimes OCD will come out as a potential diagnosis because there are a lot of aspects of OCD that people don’t necessarily associate with it because it’s not as well known.

So typically when people think about OCD, they may think about the money who washes their hands a lot, or they may think about somebody who puts things in a certain order. Do things by color. One of probably the lesser-known forms would be really common, intrusive thought that they’re going to do something that’s completely outside of their personality and fear that they’re going to do it. So the fear that I’m going to drive my car off the road, even though there’s no desire to do that, they would never do that because they don’t want to hurt themselves. They don’t want to hurt anyone else. But the idea pops into their head that like I’m might do that. Or an idea of maybe I did something that I don’t know about is something I’ll hear a lot. I think that I turned off the stove, but maybe I didn’t actually do it. What if I thought that I said this to my child actually didn’t it, it will be this sort of questioning of themselves. The more that we’ll talk about that it will really kind of move more into the OCD realm. 

What that does is it will sort of just change your treatment perspective a little bit, as far as what you’re going to do in medicine and therapy, then it becomes talking about really what OCD can look like. And it makes sense that people who are in a high state of whether it’s anxiety or OCD, they’re dealing with some distress and may have hesitancy about it taking medication. 

Carrie: What do you tell your patients who are concerned about starting a new medication or switching medication? Because the last one wasn’t helpful for them.

Jennifer: The very first thing that’s most important for any patient is that, and it’s not always conveyed this way, but I think this is super important for anyone to know is that it’s always their choice. So no matter what the provider says, it’s ultimately their choice at the end of the day. Because when you leave that room, the patient is the one who’s taking the medicine and the patient’s the one who’s going home with it. When you’re coming to see me, for instance, I’m giving you my opinion about what I think is best, but ultimately it’s your choice.

I think a lot of times in medical situations, people can feel kind of powerless and they feel like they have to listen to exactly what the provider says. And sometimes it is good to do that, but if you don’t feel comfortable with the situation, then you don’t have to go along with that. So I think the first important thing is to know it’s always in your court and then also be really educated on what is the purpose of the medicine and that the idea is to make things better. If the medicine you’re taking now is not making things better then we probably need to make a change, really talking about what’s the goal. What do you want? What would make things feel more manageable to you? What would that look like? Then figuring out how do we get there? When they’re anxious about that, you have to really break it down into, we’re just wanting to improve things. This is why this is how, and sometimes I think that education and knowing that ultimately they have the final say is really helpful for people.

Carrie: This is really huge. I think that we don’t emphasize enough, like empowering people to make the health choices that are best for them. Yes. There are experts who can say, hey, these are the medications that are commonly prescribed. Here are the side effects. We believe that in prescribing this medication, the benefits for you are going to outweigh the side effects, but ultimately you have to weigh that option and everything is a potential risk. Empowering people is so key in that. And I liked what you said about it, just ultimately it being your choice. 

Sometimes I’ll have people in therapy who want to try therapy first before they try medication. I always tell people I’ll work with, whether you’re on medication or not, it’s not really a big deal for me, but it’s interesting because sometimes we’ll circle back around to that medication conversation after they’ve been in therapy for six months or so. And they’re not seeing the progress that they’d like to see, then I’d say, okay, can we circle back around to this wagon? And can we evaluate this as an option? Will you go talk with someone and just see what your options are? What they think might be helpful for you. And I know that oftentimes people are started on a lower dose of medication, just to make sure that their system is going to handle it well. 

Jennifer: One of the things that I’ll talk about when somebody comes in and they’ve never been medicated before, or they’re just coming in because they’re not really sure what needs to happen. And it’s not a very clear-cut case of like, we absolutely need to do something today. Sometimes when I ask the person, okay, do you think you need medicine? Do you feel like this is really impairing your function? And sometimes they’ll say, yeah, I think so. When it’s like, okay, well, I’m willing to give that a try, and sometimes they’ll say, I mean, I think I could do therapy for a little while first and like, I’m okay with that too. So let’s go that route and that kind of, once again goes back to making the decision, but I want to know what’s their opinion. How do they feel like their functioning is affected by the symptoms that they’re experiencing, being able to hear that is really helpful sometimes. And then, when you’re in school, one of the slogans that you’re taught about medicine to start is to start low and go slow. So that is basically just trying to minimize the amount of side effects that someone experiences. Sometimes that, unfortunately, means that they’re not gonna see the efficacy as early as you would hope.

In other words, they’re not going to stay, their symptoms decrease as fast as you would like to stay, because symptoms are too high to match the low dose that they’ve been started on. But then you get into a situation where if you start them on a higher dose, they’re going to have a lot of stomachs upset or they’re going to be too sleepy and they’re not going to be able to get up the next day and then that side effect is not going to be tolerable. So then they’re going to stop the medicine anyway. So once again, it goes back to that balance of trying to, I use a seesaw a lot as like a, not a visual, but to kind of explain that we’re trying to balance the seesaw. It goes back to that idea of trying to balance that risk-benefit, balance that out.

And I think that piece is another thing that’s super important for people to understand is what’s the timeframe that I’m going to start to see a difference, because if they’re expecting that they’re going to see a difference in a week, but the reality is four to six weeks. And they’re not told that it’s going to be hard for them to maybe stick with the medicine. And so it’s really important for people to know what we are looking at? What’s the timeframe? When should we start to see a difference? Are we going to see a difference in this dose? If symptoms are really high right now, and obviously not all of that, a hundred percent predictable, but you can give them an idea of what you would maybe hope to see, kind of give them a little bit of a window in.

Carrie: Those are some great points that you made in terms of having to increase dosages at times because people aren’t at a therapeutic dose. Sometimes people end up dropping out and stop taking the medication without talking to their provider. That’s one thing that just drives me a little bit bad. I’m like, no, if you’re not happy or you don’t feel like you’re getting what you need, you go back to that person and you explain, hey, I’m not seeing the results I’m wanting, or I’m having these side effects or there are always different things that can be done or like you just said, they may tell you, okay, well, we’re going to increase your dosage because it doesn’t look like you’re at the therapeutic level or you need to stay on it for sometimes four to six weeks to see the full results from it. I think sometimes people go into the doctor’s office and they’re not always hearing or receiving all the information that they need because they’re distressed. Right. 

And so it’s hard to remember everything that was said and the guidance that was given. So if I could tell, make any recommendations to people it’s please don’t stop your medication. Please stick with it, call your provider, talk with them because some of these medications, it’s really not good for you to stop suddenly.

Jennifer: I also, unfortunately, think that the education piece for patients is not always there. Sometimes they’re not always getting everything they need to get as far as what are the side effects? How long should I wait? Like it’s more just, here’s the prescription first Alexa, 20 milligrams, I’ll see you in two months and that is no information whatsoever. And that is completely on us as a provider. And that drives me nuts because it’s like, it’s so important to me, for my patients to know why they’re taking, why they’re taking it, what it does because I want them to be educated about it because they’re part of the treatment team.

Carrie: It was important for people not to see, I think, any medication really as a miracle cure. And I think sometimes people go into taking psychiatric medication, whether it’s for anxiety, OCD, depression, or something else. And they think, okay, well, I’m just going to take this medicine. It’s going to solve all my problems and similar to, if you put somebody on a blood pressure medication for high blood pressure, you wouldn’t just say, well, just take this medication you want also for them to make some lifestyle changes that would support what that medication is working on.So talk with us a little bit about that too. 

Jennifer: I use diabetes as an example. A lot of the time I will say, this is very similar. So like someone with diabetes, they take their insulin, but then they also check their blood sugar and they exercise and they have to watch what they eat. It’s a combination. And so that’s when we talk about that. The best results come from a combination of medicine and therapy and that medicine is just one tool in the toolbox. It is not the end. All be all, and medicine can help you cope, but it doesn’t teach you how to. And super important for people to know that you have to learn the coping skills medicine can help lower your anxiety, but life circumstances, there’s gonna be times that anxiety is going to spike and you need to know what to do when that happens and medicine doesn’t teach you that. So that’s where that other piece of the puzzle comes in. Whether that’s a therapist you’re seeing your past, or you’re seeing you’re doing a workbook at home, whatever it is that you’re doing something to learn what to do in those other moments, because it’s not a matter of if it’s going to happen. It’s a matter of when. And so we have to plan ahead for that. 

Carrie: What different types of medication would you say are commonly prescribed for anxiety or OCD? 

Jennifer: For both of those really it’s antidepressant and anti-depressants are first-line treatment for anxiety. And so I’ll have a lot of people come in and there may be already on a medicine that came from primary care and they’ll say, well, I have anxiety and they put me on this antidepressant and I’ll say, well, that’s actually appropriate because the antidepressants are first-line treatment for anxiety. The five medicines that are FDA approved for OCD are actually all antidepressants. The most common medicine probably used in OCD specifically is probably Prozac. There are four others after that, that are sort of used in varying order.

There are some medicines for anxiety that can just be used as needed that we like in our practice. We use an antihistamine sometimes that’s as needed. There are actually a couple of blood pressure medicines that we use as needed for anxiety. Providers will use benzodiazepine for anxiety that is not favored where we are, because those are very addictive medicines and they actually make anxiety worse in the long run and they call short and long-term memory loss.

There’s links to dementia. It will fix it quickly in the moment when you’re having an anxiety bite, but long-term, it’s going to make things worse for you. And so that’s something that we in our practice avoid because it’s not fixing the problem. So when you’re looking at an antidepressant for anxiety, what that’s actually doing is it’s adjusting the brain chemistry. All of the ones. When we look at anxiety and OCD, because of course the OCD is an anxiety disorder that all targets serotonin in some way or another. They’re adjusting the levels of serotonin in the brain. So we’re actually changing the brain chemistry, ideally back to where it needs to be. So kind of a way I sort of describe that to someone as like the thermostat is stuck and we’re trying to race that we’re trying to sort of teach the brain how to relearn the patterns for which chemicals need to be there and what capacity. 

Another important thing I think if it’s just anxiety and especially if someone’s in therapy, is that medicine doesn’t necessarily have to be forever. It’s something that until you can build the coping skills to learn how to manage most situations. And we have sort of put unquote, retrain the brain for what chemicals need to be there and what capacity for long enough, then you can try to come off of the medicine potential and do it on your own. OCD is not necessarily doesn’t fall into that category so much. That’s more of something that’s managed, like someone who has diabetes, that’s just managed throughout the year. But for some disorders, our goal was to try to fix it at the beginning. So it’s not a lifelong thing.

And I think that’s a common misconception too sometimes is that you want to put me on medicine and just keep me on it forever. Not necessarily, we could potentially fix this problem now so that it’s not a problem for it. And it’s dependent on different things as far as what episode they’re in and how long they’ve been on meds and there’s varying factors. But I think a lot of people don’t know that that’s a possibility. 

Carrie: I think that’s a really great point that you bring up. One of the common concerns that people have is whether I’m going to become addicted to this medication somehow dependent on it and I’m not ever going to be able to come off of it. So from what you were just saying, these first line of defense medications, the anti-depressant. People aren’t going to become addicted or dependent on those, right? 

Jennifer: Not at all. No, they do not have any addictive properties whatsoever. I think sometimes what people might get confused about would be to say that if you forget to take your medicine one day, you might feel kind of bad. Like you might have a headache or you might have a stomach ache, but that is just simply your body reacting to not having something that it had every single day, but that’s not a quote unquote withdrawal effect. There’s a difference in that.

You have to be able to, to know that like, if you come off of these medicines and anti-depressant specifically, you’re not going to go into a physical withdrawal. There are some that are more difficult to come off and others, but if your provider knows how to appropriately taper you down, it minimizes what we call discontinuation side effects. Just knowing how to do that is important. And obviously the provider communicating how to get off of it is important.

Carrie: Right? So that people can do that safely and effectively. 

Jennifer: If you just stop your medicine suddenly you are probably going to have side effects because you’re going from a hundred percent to zero. All of a sudden your body is probably going to react very negatively to that.

Carrie: What should people look for in terms of choosing a psychiatrist or a psychiatric nurse practitioner? 

Jennifer: The ultimate goal is somebody they feel comfortable with is important. I think to have the ability to have an open dialogue, to express concerns about your medicine at our clinic. Like we are a team and it’s a delicate balance to figure out what the correct path is. And if my patient feels like they can’t tell me that their medicine’s not working or that they’re having a side effect, or they feel like I’m going to get upset about that. It’s the relationship that needs a little bit of work because that’s not what we’re there for. Like if someone comes back and they tell me they stopped their medicine, sometimes they’ll say, they’ll come in and they’ll say, you’re going to be so upset with me. I just stopped my medicine over the weekend. And it’s like, I’m not upset with it. That was your choice. I’m sure it wasn’t probably didn’t feel very good.

So let’s just figure out what we’re going to do next and be able to have that open conversation without judgment and figure out what the best path is. I think I hear a lot of times stories where patients feel like they’re unheard and they just keep taking meds when they feel they’re not working for whatever reason, that’s not a good situation either. I think it’s also important for somebody to have humility because I’m not too proud to break out my books and look something up or to call somebody or to figure out. Because you just can’t know everything. You have to know what your limits are and you have to be willing to research something or to know when it’s time for you to call in somebody else. And if you have a provider who doesn’t do that, I think that’s hard for you, maybe to build a relationship sometimes. 

Carrie: I think what you’re saying is really true of any medical professional that you work with. You want to feel heard, you want to feel understood. You want to feel like, okay, this person has a plan. They’re offering me some guidance and not just guidance, but really some education on, instead of just here, take this medicine. Really providing some good education on the medication, why they think that would be a good medication for you and with the symptoms that you’re dealing with, what the potential for side effects are when they might see those wear off, so forth and so on. I think that it’s huge to understand that we have to be our own best advocate when we’re going into these situations, because we have to be able to communicate what’s going on in our own body. And sometimes people have a hard time with that. I think really communicating what has been going on with them

Jennifer: Because it makes it difficult. Sometimes if the patient is not telling everything because they don’t feel comfortable for whatever reason, then as a provider, if we don’t know the whole story, then we can’t adequately treat. I think a lot of times we don’t maybe get the whole story because of fear of judgment or shame or whatever. But I know in our practice, that’s not our job. Our job is not to judge or to guilt someone or to shame them. Our job is to figure out, okay, how do we move forward? How do we get back? Let’s figure out what our best plan is, but you can’t do that. If you’re not comfortable enough to share what’s going on, really got to find somebody that you can build that relationship with.

Carrie: Awesome. So as we’re getting towards the end of our podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person. 

Jennifer: I think for me, probably one of the most hopeful things was sort of born out of something really traumatic in 2009. 10 days after I got married, I had a very traumatic car accident and we spent our first month of married life in the hospital. And I was in a wheelchair for like three, nine specific three months until I could walk again. And just with the amount of prayers and people coming by and my sweet husband’s help driving me back and forth to the doctor, changing stuff at our house, like going to work and then coming back and picking me up and taking me to physical therapy.

And I was able to walk a month earlier and basically made what would be considered pretty much a full recovery. Over 10 years later, no real complications and have been able to sometimes use that story for people who have had something really traumatic physically happen to them. And they’re in that moment of why, what am I going to do? This is terrible and being able to say things like, listen, you can come out the other side of this, like I know right now it does not feel like that, but if you put your faith in Him, you can come out the other side of this and being able to use that sometimes in my practice. 

Carrie: That is really encouraging and hopeful because when you’re in that, the middle of that situation going okay, what am I going to be able to walk? When am I going to be able to do things for myself?

Jennifer: Normal stuff. Yeah. 

Carrie: That must’ve been a very hard situation. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom about medication. We’re going to put the information in the show notes for a safe Harbor in Murphysboro, and they also have telehealth appointments. So if you’re in Tennessee or in the area at all and are looking for a new provider, now they know a little bit more about you.

Jennifer: Yes, we are accepting new patients. So give us a call. 

Carrie: Awesome. 

Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. 

Carrie: You’re welcome. 

———

I hope that you found this interview valuable and helpful. I wanted to give you a quick update on our subscription service for the podcast. There have been just so many struggles and challenges as I’ve sought to do this in our original. I saw that we were going to be able to have a good monthly subscription service on the website, buy me a coffee that I had been using for people to give to the show who wanted to give and what I realized as I got further into the functionality. That I wasn’t able to share all of the audio files and different things that I wanted to be able to do on that website. So I’ve actually created a Patrion page that we’ll put in the show notes for Hope for Anxiety and OCD. If you’re not familiar with Patrion, it’s a website for podcasters and other creators to go on.

And it gives the opportunity for people to be able to support what you’re doing with a monthly gift that we have a smaller, monthly amount that you can give. If you just want to help support our editing efforts and help pay for our assistant to do social media, reach out to guests and so forth. If you’re looking for a little bit more self-help materials, I created a higher tier on Patrion for those of you who are listening to the show, but just feel like you want more content and more information. We’re going to have monthly question and answer times. I’m sharing some thought hush audio on there for dealing with difficult thoughts, whether you have anxiety or OCD, just very practical strategies, audio that you can listen to you exercises that you can go back in and practice over and over and over again until you feel like you become better at managing the anxiety and OCD that you’re experiencing.

So that’s something that’s of interest to you. You certainly can hop on for a month or two, try it out if you don’t like it, and you can cancel it at any time. If you do happen to hop on and try it out, I would love to hear what you think. And if some of those things are helpful and as well as if there’s any ways that we can make improvements to that subscription service, because I definitely want it to be of value to you. We’ll leave that link in the show notes, if you’re interested and thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of by the local counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

53. Yoga Therapy for Trauma with Anissa Hudak

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 53. Yoga Therapy for Trauma with Anissa Hudak

Anissa is a certified yoga therapist who helps traumatized women release the trauma from their bodies through yoga therapy.

  • How Anissa developed her interest not just in yoga, but yoga as a therapy
  • How has yoga therapy helped people whom Anissa has worked with?
  • The difference between yoga and yoga therapy
  • How does yoga therapy release trauma?
  • What is a yoga therapy session like?

Related links and resources:

Anissa HudakIf you enjoy the podcast and want to support what we’re doing, or if you’re looking for self-help materials to assist you on your journey of managing your anxiety and OCD in healthier ways. Audio teachings, relaxation exercises, and my book on how to find a therapist are provided for self-help via monthly subscription, go to www.patreon.com/hopeforanxietyandocd


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Transcript

Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD episode 53. I am your host, Carrie Bock. And today we are talking with Anissa Hudak on yoga therapy. So if you know anything about our show, we are all about mind, body, emotion, spirit. God has created us with all of these different aspects of our being. And it’s helpful to understand that healing can come in many different forms for people.

I like that yoga therapy combines the physical healing of our bodies while also there’s a level of emotional healing because trauma can become stored in the body. And we get into some of that on the show today. 

So without further do here is my interview. And this I’m so excited to have you on the show today to talk about yoga therapy.

This is just gonna be, I think, really helpful and informative for some of the, listeners who have experienced trauma. A lot of times there’s overlap between, you know, people who’ve experienced trauma and people who experience anxiety and OCD. So thank you for coming and talking with us about this.

Anissa: Well, thank you for having me on.

Carrie: Tell me a little bit about how you got interested in not just yoga, but further training to get into yoga therapy. 

Anissa: Well, you know, life is a journey and nobody wakes up one day and says, “I wanna work with people who’ve had trauma”.

Carrie: Right. That’s true.

Anissa: I started in 2013, with a teacher training course in yoga, and I just loved yoga. I had been practicing for several years at that point, and I wanted to be able to do my own yoga practice and keep myself safe. I didn’t wanna have to go to anybody else’s class and be on somebody’s schedule. So I took a, a teacher training course. It was the level one. I had no aspirations of doing anything else. And within a month of me finishing the class, I had two job offers. 

Carrie: Wow.

Anissa: And I kind of was like, okay, I think. Somebody’s trying to tell me something here. And so I had kind of gotten the bug. I really enjoyed the people I was interacting with in that class. And I decided I’m gonna take another class. And I kind of got that bug and, you know, I started teaching and it just kind of snowballed. So when I was signing up for some classes, I noticed that there were, classes for PTSD. At the time my husband was active duty military. We are stationed right outside of Fort Riley, Kansas. We had people, all kinds of, you know, men and women deploying coming back. We had tons of military in the community. I was like, I live in the belly of the beast here. You know, this would be a great thing to know to help my community. 

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: And so I started on this track and I was in, first day, first class about halfway through and I sat there and said, “oh boy, the first person I need to work on is right here”. I hadn’t realized a how much trauma I had been through, how much PTSD I was really carrying around and how it had crawled into the nooks and crannies in my life and was actually holding me back. And I thought I had a really good handle on it, but I was like, I guess I don’t. And so it really became this self-discovery, self-healing. And in the process, I was able to help other people with it. And so it’s been a really amazing journey for me, not only personally, but also being able to help others.

Carrie: That’s incredible. I think that many people who have experienced trauma they find ways to survive, essentially survival skills and sometimes that’s cutting off their emotional experience. Sometimes it’s isolating in relationships. I mean, there can be a variety avoiding places and people and situations that make them triggered. It’s interesting to hear you say like, okay, well, I, I mean, I thought I had it together. I was, I was doing okay. Were there certain things that kind of came up in your practice or in that class that kind of were red flags for you of like, I really need to work on this. 

Anissa: I think that what really took me back was when I was learning the science behind it all, what’s going on in the brain, what’s going on in the body. It’s all science-based. And I sat there and I was like, this should be taught to everyone in high school biology. We should all know what happens with our body. We’re all gonna experience trauma on some level. And we know that when we break a bone, we go to the hospital, we have an x-ray, we get a cash.

However, when we break our central nervous system, how do we reset that, we’re not taught that. And that was what really clued me in, because we were talking about symptoms and I’m like, I do that. I do that too. Wait a minute. Wait, you know, and that’s when I really realized, okay, I don’t really have a handle on this.

Carrie: And I think that’s so true. It’s not clear-cut for people, how to heal from trauma. A lot of times there’s a lot of different ideas and thought processes out there. And unfortunately, sometimes people think, well, I can talk about it. I mean, it doesn’t really bother me. I can talk about it, but they haven’t dealt with these other layers of emotion and trauma being stored in the body.

Anissa: Absolutely. You know, I have a therapist, I take medication. There’s nothing wrong. I there’s no shame in it.

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: However, there are more ways to skin a cat. And I don’t know why they say that. But there’s more ways to go about it. There’s so many layers to trauma and yes talking about it, working it out through your mind is wonderful. You know, sometimes we need a little bit of, you know, better living through chemistry and that’s okay, too. However, it’s in the body. We actually have muscles that trap emotion. And we need to release that or else you’re what we’re gonna, you know, progress in your healing journey. 

Carrie: That’s really incredible. I mean, I, I think most people don’t know that, or haven’t learned that haven’t realized that, you know, you can have emotional releases, through trauma work that are physiological and in your body. 

Anissa: And what’s sad is that this is not being taught in high school biology or, or what have you. But we all have this. We all need it. And that’s what really stuck with me. So not only did, was I learning this on a personal level and utilizing it, but also it kind of became, my mantra. I wanna bring this out. I want people to know what’s going on in your body. 

Carrie: Right. And there are people, especially who have experienced sexual trauma who are cut off from their physical experience, you know, due to what happened to them understandably so and that can cause problems. Obviously, when you get into relationships and you want to feel good having sex and you don’t, or your body starts to react in a way that you don’t want it to, you know, maybe you tense up when you don’t want to. So talk with us a little bit about what you’ve seen, maybe in the people that you’ve worked with, is that some of, kind of what you’ve done or how you’ve helped people?

Anissa: Well, the word yoga means yoke and it means to bring together. The body and the mind. 

Carrie: Okay. 

Anissa: And you could sit there and you could talk about your rape if you will. And it’s not a problem. And yet your body, you know, tells the different story because you’re not connected. There are certain things that I do in the class that help people to connect with their body again. Some people are really angry with their body. They didn’t protect them. And so they are disconnected from their body. They don’t wanna be in their body and they start living. And, and that’s one of the things about PTSD is that you really live from the neck up. 

Carrie: Yes. 

Anissa: You forget about the rest of your body. And it’s really where on the map, we’re able to bridge that gap and get people to start. Feeling in their body in a very safe and controlled environment. And it’s not scary. I think of my job as I welcome people back into their bodies. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. So tell us about the difference between yoga and yoga therapy.

Anissa: I love this. If we think of yoga as a big pie, If we split it down the middle and on one side we have fitness based yoga and there are so many wonderful techniques at different ways that Aerial yoga there’s, you know, Ashtanga and  and coed, naked, hot yoga, and you know, all of these different things. And they’re great for a workout. Will it encompass your mind? Will it do similar things absolutely? Can you have an emotional release in one of these classes? Yes, you can. However, here’s the difference. On the other side, we have yoga therapy and all of have been especially trained for a specific thing. So we have yoga therapy for arthritis, cardiac rehab cancer. And so we all have our special, you know, niche that we work in. Being that it’s PTSD trauma and TBIs, traumatic brain injuries. 

I have special protocols that I have to go through. If someone has an emotional release on the mat, I know how to handle that. I’ve been taught how to handle that. I know how to keep them safe. Everyone else in the class safe, myself safe and various other things. However, someone who is fitness based yoga, you know, teaches, they may not have that background. They may not know how to help you. Through that emotional relief, they might even kick you out of the class for being a disturbance. Now that’s not gonna be helpful if you’re having an emotional release.

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: So really finding what meets your needs is incredibly important. 

Carrie: Yes. 

Anissa: You wanna find a class that, that really caters to what your needs are, and if you can’t find maybe a yoga therapy class, if you talk with the instructor for a regular fitness-based class. They might be able to help you either in their class or find someone else.

Carrie: Now I would imagine that you would have to do this on a smaller scale. If you are working through, you know, traumatic release, you’re not gonna want a large number of people in there is that true? Do you tend to have like smaller base classes or one on one work with people? 

Anissa: I do one on one. I do smaller base classes. That is my personal preference. I think it’s more intimate. 

Carrie: Sure.

Anissa: I think we create a better bubble if you will. It, you know, it is a little bit easier to kind of keep, watch over everyone to ensure, the classes themselves are really about having smaller, emotional releases. They may not even know what’s happening. They may not even feel it happening. Now there is a technique that we can do that’s actually a, a larger emotional release. Those are done one on one. Those are done after I’ve gotten to know the student. I mean, they’re not gonna just walk through the door and say, Hey, I wanna do a major emotional release.

No, we’re not gonna do that. I need to know this person. I kind of need to know the background. I’ve had students who are with me for three months and they do it. I’ve had a student with me for over five years and we’ve never done it. It really depends on where the student is, you know, with their practice and, and with their healing.

Carrie: Do you find that people that you work with also practice outside of their time with you? Is that part of, the component that’s helpful? 

Anissa: Some poses I teach for them to utilize outside the class. And sometimes a student will say, “you know, I was making my coffee this morning and I found myself in, you know, tree pose”. And they start living their yoga off the mat, which is really a beautiful thing. And they’re doing it really unintentionally. It just kind of subconsciously happens. And that’s really where the fun is. 

Carrie: I remember from this has been years ago since I used to go to yoga classes pretty regularly. And I remember one of the teachers saying, “you know, eventually you’ll be in tune with your body enough to know what type of like, poses and stretching that you, your body needs that day, you know, based on just kind of how you’re feeling”. And I would imagine it’s, it’s similar in the emotional reality. 

Anissa: It is when I queue oppose, there’s a lot of different languaging around it. I mean, you know, usually, in most classes they’re like, okay, you know, downdog and you know, updog. And I phrase my cues, like, I’m gonna invite you to join me in downdog giving people the power to make the decision when we’ve experienced trauma. A lot of times our power has been taken away from us.

Carrie: Right.

Anissa: And so this actually gives how we’re back and then I’ll say, you know, here we are, we’re in kneeling warrior one, and you have options with your arms. You can do this, you can do that. You can, what is your body wanting today? Where do you feel like you wanna be today? And that again, not only gives them options and their power back to make that decision, but also helps them connect with their body. What am I feeling today? Do I want my arms up? Do I want them to the side? And so that helps to bridge that disconnection, giving them power and connecting the body and the mind.

Carrie: Is there, a typical, I don’t know if length of treatment is the right way to say it, but is there a typical time frame that people come to see you? Do they usually come once a week for a few months or does it just depend on how much trauma they’ve experienced? Can you talk to us kind of a little bit about what that pattern is like?

Anissa: So pre-COVID when we all got to see one another. 

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: You know, I ran cut classes three times a week. Sometimes, you know, I had somebody in three times a week. It really depends on the person and what their trauma is and how they’re dealing with it. They could be with me for three months. They could be with me for three years.

Each person is so individual. There’s no way to say that there’s a set time protocol. 

Carrie: Sure. 

Anissa: It’s kind of like chiropractic care. The more you do it, the, the better it is, the longer it lasts. And so, you know, that’s what I recommend. That’s why I ran three classes a week, but everybody’s schedule is different.

Carrie: Sure. 

Anissa: So some is better than none. 

Carrie: Yes. Yes. Some is better than none but works on a lot of different areas I’m sure. What kind of results are people seeing from, from doing yoga therapy? 

Anissa: Well, one of the things they usually fall in love with yoga and that, you know, it usually becomes a lifelong thing at that point. They may not go to a trauma-based class, but they might find maybe a fitness-based class that they like, or a different type of restorative class, or, but they become a lifelong fan, which is kinda fun. And it’s really amazing to watch someone have a breakthrough on the mat. You know, you see the light bulb go on, you see something change and it’s beautiful. And it’s wonderful. And to know that you’ve had maybe just a little bit to do with that is really a blessing. 

Carrie: Are you finding that people are less triggered by being in certain poses? Maybe that they were in during the the trauma, like, positioning of their body. I don’t know if that’s.

Anissa: Absolutely. You know, poses can definitely bring on triggers. And, one of the things that I like to do is I like to talk with my students before they even enter my class. You know, tell me a little bit about it, you know, why are you here? Okay. You’ve been raped. Okay. You know, as a two-time rape survivor, you know, I, I walk that walk I get it.  And so I’m really careful about that. You know, one of the number one rule in my class is we do not use any straps. You know, lots of classes use yoga straps, and they’re wonderful things not in my class. We, we don’t use that. The lights remain on at all times. We don’t turn off the lights. I never leave my mat. And if I have to leave my mat, I announce it before I leave. 

That way people aren’t like, why is she walking behind me? And you know, what is she doing? I hardly ever touch my students. I will cue something and differently and reword it. You know, X number of times to see if I can get them into the right pose in the right way. However, if I can’t and I do need to touch them, I ask them, I announce I’m leaving my mat. I go to them. So I, but I also keep in mind, who’s in my class. What if they’ve been dealing with what can’t we do, what should we be doing? How can I do an alternative to that pose so we can get the same result, but maybe in a different way.

Carrie: I think those things that you named as far as just from someone who’s been in yoga class before, I think that those things are huge safety features for trauma survivors because I have been in classes where. Teachers walked her around and where teachers did touch you. And some of them asked and some of them didn’t, some of them just kind of were like, nope, you’re doing this wrong. And let me move your body so you can do it right. I was like, I don’t like that at all. I don’t wanna be touched by somebody. I don’t know that I don’t feel comfortable with. So, I appreciate you spelling that out. I think that that’s so important. 

Anissa: Those are absolute keys as to, you know, what we do because we don’t wanna re-trigger someone.

Carrie: Right.

Anissa: I mean, you know, we’re there to help. And so we have to have different kind of protocols. I said, the way I phrase questions, that’s again psychological, but so needed and so necessary for what we do. And so our class is incredibly different than what you’re gonna see or experience in a regular fitness based class. 

Carrie: That’s good. It’s good to definitely know the differences and it sounds like you definitely have a lot more training than someone who’s just doing fitness based yoga. Is there a certain credentialing process that you had to go through?

Anissa: Well, I became a 500 hour R I T registered yoga trainer teacher.

Carrie: Okay. 

Anissa: Again, I never set out to even ever teach. And so when I say that I kind of giggle because I’m like who would’ve ever thought. And then at that point I had taken so much class so many classes. I had done so much research. I had done other things that I was able to get credentialed through the international association of yoga therapists. And we have a governing body. I just went through my re crench my re-credentialing. It’s great to have a body over us that says, this is what we’re doing. You can go to their website. And that’s I A Y T.com and you can actually find a yoga therapist in your area.

Carrie: Awesome. That’s really great. I think having those certification processes and the governing bodies to making sure there’s some accountability that you have a certain level of training and that, you know what you’re doing, you know, so that’s, that’s huge. Is there anything else that you feel like be helpful for us to know about yoga therapy or about what you do, you know, related to helping people heal from trauma?

Anissa: I would say the most important thing is really when you are going to be employing someone to help you in your healing journey, ensure that they are going to meet your needs. But for instance, if you’re going to go see a therapist and you’ve experienced sexual trauma. Find someone that specializes in sexual trauma. And I will, I’ll tell you firsthand. I had worked with a lot of different therapists and I would progress on my healing journey, but I was still finding that I was going back to therapy and talking about it.

This last time I found a man, I had never worked with a man before you know, I had only worked with women. So I was like, I dunno how I feel about that. 

Carrie: A little hesitant. 

Anissa: I really was. And he specializes in sexual trauma. I have done more work and more healing with this man as my therapist than I’ve ever done in the past with any one person or actually all together, it’s been amazing. So when you find people who meet your needs, that’s really vitally important. Again, you don’t wanna walk into the yoga studio on the corner. And expect to have, you know, these, this brilliant thing happens, something else is gonna happen in there. And it may not be to your liking again, find someone who can meet your needs. And I think that that is key. 

Carrie: That is huge, you know, making sure that you can get connected with the right person. I know that that’s absolutely essential for seeking therapy for different things. Sometimes you work with a therapist for a little while and they can only take you so far and you may have to find somebody else like you were saying that can take you to that next level. And it’s usually when you are looking for that next person that you’re looking for, something a lot more specific. Maybe then you were the first time.

Anissa: Absolutely. I think the other thing I would have to stress is healing, especially from any kind of trauma is a very individual thing. And people try different things and they say, like essential oils didn’t work for me. Okay that’s cool. They may not have worked for you at that point in time where you were in your healing journey, who you were as a person. Try it again in three months, six months, 12 months. Keep trying it again, because you’re at a different point in your healing journey. You’re a different person. Your trauma is different at that point. And so something that may not have worked early on might work later on. So keep trying things. 

Carrie: I think that’s essential for maintaining hope and that’s a lot of what this podcast is about is help people know that there’s hope and theres healing out there, but so often it comes in layers. Sometimes clients will go through a round of therapy and they’ll be doing really well.

And then they’ll be back in six months and they’re like, I don’t understand why I’m still struggling with this. And I’m like, well, you know, you just, you’ve reached a different layer. It’s time for us to do a little bit of deeper that next level of work that you weren’t ready to do that a year ago. And now you are. So this is actually a good thing. This is a good part of your process to like keep going through that work. So I appreciate you saying that. So as we’re kind of winding down the episode here, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.

Anissa: I had this really incredible experience. I talked earlier about having that large emotional release. I was in a teacher training class for yoga. And we did that. We, and it was the first time I had ever experienced it. And I was sobbing. I mean, I had such an emotional release and I was sobbing and sobbing. And then always like, you know, my luck. Right after we do this, it’s lunchtime and they’re providing us with a luncheon. Know, when you go to a yoga training course, you know, and they do that. You’re usually eating like nuts and berries, you know? So there was like salad, you know, you know, it wasn’t anything major, but, you know, so there’s, you know, salads or whatever, and I’m sitting there and I’m like sobbing into my salad. I sobbed for an hour and a half. 

Carrie: Wow. 

Anissa: And women, you know, these wonderful yoginis were coming up to me and saying, “are you Ok, dear?” I just released my salad and I, just go ahead. Just cry it out, just let it go. And nobody was affected by it. Everybody was like, just cry. Let it go. Let it go. You gotta get it out. And I wasn’t chastised. I was encouraged to cry. I was surrounded by all of these beautiful women. They all understood. They all got it. Nobody cared and there was such acceptance and peace around it. 

It was just really lovely. And so when I have a student in my class who cries on the mat and it happens, that’s part of my job is to make people cry you know. I encourage them to cry, let it out. This is great. This is a wonderful thing. Let it go. And what I have found is that the other participants in the class, they start saying it too. And we create this beautiful, safe place for this person to do this release work. And I love how the other generally women in my class. Join in and do that as well. 

Carrie: I think that’s so powerful because so many times there’s kind of this pressure of feel better, pat you on the back. it’ll be okay. You’ll be fine. And instead of allowing that emotional experience, which really in your case was like a gift at that moment. And so for people to be able to say, like that’s here and you can welcome it. And we’re here for you and we’re in support of you instead of like, go away and have that somewhere else. Or like, it’ll all be better. Just, you know, chin up girl or something like that. 

Those societal messages are so I like that, you know, story because we need more of that in our just general society as we’re going through the world and loving on people and I know that I’ve been able to provide some of that for my clients, to who are never given that permission to feel as children or in their adult relationships. It’s just like, crying’s okay. You know, people apologize all the time for crying and we don’t need to like crying is a human thing let it happen. It’s all okay.

Anissa: Absolutely it is. it’s being human. We should never have to apologize for being human. 

Carrie: Right. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Anissa, thank you so much. For coming on, this was informative for me and I know it’s going to be for our listeners as well, and we will put links to your website in the show notes. If people would like to reach out to you, are you doing some virtual classes then?

Anissa: Everything now is online. 

Carrie: Okay. 

Anissa: And I’m actually in the process of getting ready to release a membership for women who’ve been sexually traumatized. And in there there’s going to be recorded sessions. There’s going to be live sessions. We’re gonna have lots of education and all kinds of wonderful things in there to help women along their journey. I’m super excited about it. I actually started working on this pre-COVID. But then, you know, everybody was here in my house during COVID. I couldn’t hear myself think now that we’re kind of back to someone normal. I can get back to what I was doing. 

Carrie: Okay. Awesome, that’s great. 

Anissa: Well, I appreciate you having me on thank you so very much. 

Carrie: Thank you. I am so glad that you tuned in to hear the show today. If you like our show, please be sure to rate and review on iTunes or other platforms. This helps people find the show who are also looking for some great hope, encouragement, and support.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

52. Anxiety, Attachment Trauma, and Sex/Porn Addiction with Matt Wenger, LPC

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 52. Anxiety, Attachment Trauma, and Sex/Porn Addiction with Matt Wenger, LPC

Matt is a licensed professional counselor and the clinical director of Boulder Recovery. He initially sought a career in church ministry,  but moved into the mental health field and started working with individuals recovering from sexual addiction.

  • The connection between anxiety, attachment trauma and sex/porn addiction
  • How does addiction develop?
  • How does addiction affect anxiety?
  • The link between childhood experience and addiction.
  • How does shame around unwanted sexual behaviors affect one’s relationship with God?
  • How long does sexual addiction recovery take?
  • Recovery program for porn/sexual addiction

Links and resources:
Boulder Recovery

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Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD where we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. I’m your host, Carrie Bock. And today we are going to be talking about an important topic that affects a lot of Christians and non-Christians and that’s sex porn addiction.

We’re gonna talk about the connection between anxiety, attachment trauma and these issues. So if you’ve tuned into the show before you know that we’re not shy about talking about different issues that people face that are connected to anxiety. So here today, I have Matt Wininger, who is a licensed professional counselor and also the clinical director of Boulder recovery in Colorado. Welcome to the show.

Matt: Thank you, Carrie. Thanks for having me.

Carrie:So today we’re talking about sex porn addiction, which is an issue that many Christian men deal with. Do you see this issue as being as prevalent in the church as outside the church?

Matt:Oh yeah. It’s hard to understate the breadth of this addiction. I mean, we live in such a, um, saturated world when it comes to sex and objectification of women and, and men, and it affects it. Doesn’t, it doesn’t really seem to know like a boundary between the secular and the Christian world. Most of the men that I’ve treated both in secular context in, in Christian programs, uh, have been Christian.

I think that there’s just an increased level of, of shame around it for Christians and they, they seek out treatment, but this knows no bounds. It’s an epidemic really.

Carrie: Right. And really thanks to the internet. It’s very easy to keep the secret and keep it hidden. I mean, now, um, people have not just computers, but smartphones and tablets. And oftentimes this can go on for a while before anyone else really knows.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, it’s changed so much, you know, when you work with the older guys and we, I just, I see men exclusively for this. A lot of times they’ll talk about how it started, you know, magazines and print and things like that. And you just have to go to the corner store or, or whatever, to get a magazine or, or something like that. And, um, there was a little bit of a barrier there, you know, to have to leave your house and go and purchase something in person. But right now it’s, I mean, you can get, you can get some of this content for less than a dollar.

You can get it anytime you want. You can get some of it for free on your phone, in your pocket at any time. And there’s a myriad ways of hiding. What it is that you’re doing. And, and in some ways it’s more difficult to deal with than even some substance addiction, just because of the ease of access and that how easy it is to get it in terms of cost.

Carrie: That makes sense, because it’s also something that you can run into even when you’re not looking for it. And that happens to, to children sometimes on the internet, they’re searching for something else and this pops up and, you know, next thing you know, that’s, that’s a scary rabbit hole to go. From the outside, people really see addiction as a problem, but it actually starts out as a solution to a problem, help us understand kind of how addictions develop. 

Matt: I believe that addictions arise to regulate an unregulated nervous Sy regulated nervous system. So what I mean by that is addiction arises to cope with sensations within the body that feel overwhelming.

So an unregulated nervous system is, you know, things that are shooting me up to an 11 in my nervous system, like rapid heartbeat, uh, difficulty breathing, those kinds of things, or crashing me down into what we would call kind a dorsal response or, or, or a frozen response. So there’s that fight or flight is at the 11 and the dorsal is kind of that negative one where I’m in that frozen.

And I can get a dysregulated nervous system in a lot of ways, but what we call that is just trauma, right? Where, um, something is overwhelming my brain overwhelming my nervous system. And I, I lose the ability to process. Whenever I get a, a memory that’s associated with that or an experience in my day-to-day life that’s associated with that.

I associated with that trauma. Then it’s gonna put me back in that place in my nervous system. So people talk about this all the time. Being triggered, you know, triggered by something, um, traumatic from the past. Well, it has an effect on our nervous system, not just, you know, the way we feel emotion, it can put us into that fight or flight space, or it can put us into that place of shutdown and withdraw or frozen.

That can lead to addictions as an outside source of regulation that I can reach out for something to calm my nervous system down, or to bring it up out of that frozen space. So guys will often say like, oh, I’m was so stressed, I’m stressed. And I just overwhelmed and I need to release or come down from that 11 or stress relief. Or I need to feel something. I was stuck in a depressive state and I had to like shoot up out of that at Boulder recovery, we use the Tena model, which is called trauma-induced sexual addiction. So it linked traumatic events to the dysregulation in your nervous system. And as your nervous system is disregulated, it cries out for coping cries out for relief.

It cries out to regulate. And if I had that early trauma between zero and 20 years old and a maladaptive sexual experience, like early exposure to pornography or, um, molestation or sexual abuse or something like that, and that stuff kinda wires together, that every time I need to cope. I can go to that thing that I was exposed to, and that feels, I feel okay for a little bit.

I feel like comforted or nurtured or calm or peaceful. I, my nervous system comes down or I begin to feel when I, when I was empty or hollow. And as long as if I keep going back to that as a young person into my teenage years and into adulthood, I keep going back again and again and again, again, and now I’m dealing with addiction.

This kind of rut and my brain has been formed and wherever the ditch is dug, the water’s gonna flow. Right. And so, again and again, and again, and then all of a sudden I’m what, what you described as a solution, which what was once, um, wanted, is now needed to feel okay on a day-to-day kind of basis. And that’s the transition between something that’s just coping.

And now that is addiction something that wanted or something that was a solution to a problem of how I felt dysregulated and emotion that I did not like, or was not comfortable. Has now become a problem because of the compulsivity around it and the way in which it is damaging my life.

Carrie: Right. And all of a sudden, there’s, there’s more problems that end up happening, like relationship issues. So do you find that a lot of times brings men into treatment?

Matt: Oh yeah. A classic thing in addiction, right? Like gotta hit rock bottom before you’re gonna really do something about it, but nine times outta 10, you guys are coming to see us. They got caught, but that’s what doesn’t tell the whole story  because part of it is they are a relief.

They’re tired, they’re sick and tired, of doing this. They’re sick and tired of living that way. And when they do get caught, their whole life blows up and maybe they’re ready to give it up and maybe they’re not, but they’re tired of living that way. And just living on that rollercoaster too.

So sometimes guys come and see us because they really wanna work on themselves and they want to get better and they wanna find health. And then sometimes more often than not, it’s, it’s a, it’s a crisis, you know, it’s a response to crisis in their relationship,

Carrie: Right. In order to get help for these types of things, you really have to be willing to examine yourself and start to look at some of those painful feelings that you’ve been avoiding and that’s really hard work to do. And so oftentimes people don’t seek that out until their situation becomes too painful. That, that they’re forced to deal with that.

Matt: Yeah. And I think you’re right. And the crazy thing about emotions and trauma is that they’re going on all of the time, whether we acknowledge them or not.

And sure. And if I can like spend decades of just shoving it down and ignoring it. And I think that I’m dealing with it. That’s just false. It’s affecting my life in, in every which way emotions will be dealt with one way or the other. Either we face them and we deal with them and the pain and whatever else around them, or they’re gonna come sideways.

They’re gonna come out as passive-aggressive. They’re gonna come out as rage. They’re gonna come out as anxiety. They’re gonna come. You know, you, you can. Kind of joke around with guys about how, you know, they’ve been, they think that they’ve been dealing with anxiety by using their addiction, but really what they’re doing is just exponentially causing more anxiety in their life. And the thing that they’re trying to get a solution for is creating even more of the same, the irony in that is apparent, but oh man, addiction is going to the same thing again and again, and again, expecting different results. And so you can joke with guys, but it’s deadly serious that if you don’t get treatment, then it’s gonna escalate and it’s gonna get worse for.

Carrie: Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. You talked about this a little bit before, just in terms of regulation of the nervous system. Talk with us a little bit more about that connection that you’ve seen between. The early childhood experiences, the anxiety and the sexual addiction.

Matt: Sure. I kind of talk about it in two ways. Well, there’s attachment wounds that are kind of at the core of this, right? With that tr traumatic attachment wounds. So sometimes the trauma can happen outside the home and the primary caregivers don’t do a great job of dealing with it. Right. They try to ignore it or they try to minimize it or you, Hey, you’re fine.

We’re all fine. Everybody’s fine. And um, sometimes guys will tell me that was more damaging than the trauma that happened outside the home.

Carrie: I’ve heard that as well. Yeah, just the response or lack of response to it.

Matt: Yeah. And, and, and that’s really sad. You know, I worked with a guy who was kidnapped and when the police found him, his parents never brought it up ever again.

And he, that, for him that was more damaging than, than the actual event in the sexual abuse that happened during the kidnapping to have him describe it. There’s kind of that trauma that happens outside the home, but the real damage I think is done with the primary caregiver. So either in that kind of, uh, dismissal or denial or, um, minimization of emotion within the home, which we call like a cold box, the emotions there are cold.

You know, big caregivers have their back turned to the young person. Emotionally vacant would be another phrase there or the hot box where there’s a lot of emotion, but it’s chaos and there’s violence or abuse, uh, physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, all the sexual abuse. So in the hot box,  the kid is reaching out for connection and support and validation and love and all that stuff.

But in response, they’re getting hurt and they’re getting abused. Even if they’re being told that they’re loved, they’re not being treated that way. And in the cold box, the kids reaching out the same way again and again, and again, to get their needs met, but they’re being ignored or invalidated, or there’s this cold, emotionally vacant response as the parents are distracted by something else and they can’t or want pay attention to, to the young.

So what happens is in both of those scenarios, the kid will reach out again and again and again for connection and validation. And what they’re doing when they’re reaching out for that is they’re. Mom dad or whoever, uh, help me, help me understand my world, help me understand where I’m feeling, help me calm down, nurture me, cultivate me, comfort me.

All of those things. That’s how you develop a healthy nervous system is you co-regulate with a secure and safe person when you’re. As your brain and your nervous system develops. But if you don’t get that and they’re either abusing you or dismissing you or they well, hot box or cold box, then the kid eventually says, this person is not safe.

They’re not consistent. And so I cannot get my needs met through this person. So all guys that I’ve talked to that struggle with sex addiction have either said this out loud, or they’ve said it to themselves. I guess I have to take care of myself. 

Carrie: Wow. So I have to be the one to meet my own needs because mom or dad is not available to meet those needs for me.

Matt: Yeah. And so what do I do right. I don’t have this person to co-regulate with, I don’t have this person to help physiologically help me form my, a regulated nervous system. So I have to rely on some, and then there incomes that maladaptive sexual experience, right? Oh, that made me feel good. I didn’t really like that, but it made me feel something and that was kind of exciting or interesting or powerful in some way.

And, and what if I go back there that can really, that, that can change my physiological state, obviously they’re kids and not thinking about it in those terms, but sure. They’ll go back. And they’ll go back again and they’ll go back a couple more times and then as they continue to age, it’ll be more and more and more and more, and it’ll continue to escalate until it’s compulsion or addiction.

Carrie: So, I mean, I think that’s great. I haven’t heard that the hot box cold box explanation, but I really like that. I, I think it does happen. In one of those two extremes in terms of attachment trauma, from what I’ve seen. And, and we have a previous episode of people wanna go back and with Laura Mullis, where we talk about specifically about childhood wounding, and is that the key to unlocking your anxiety, I think is what that show is called, but it’s very interesting, the connections between that, that you’ve made for us and sex addiction because I think a lot of times people look at addiction and their focus of treatment really is on abstinence. Like we need to just get you away from whatever it is. Yeah. And then you’ll be okay, as long as you’re not doing that, as long as that’s not available to you, as long as you’re not engaging with it, just kind of white knuckle get through it. And that’s not really ever dealing with the root cause of the issue.

Matt: Right. And the absence of a compulsive behavior does not make health right.  If I’m dealing with an underlying traumatic issue where my nervous system has not formed or developed in a way that is. Healthy or, or lends itself to health, then, then not doing the compulsive behavior is not gonna bring me closer to health.

It’s gonna put more stress on the system. It’s gonna push me into other methods of coping. And that’s where we see guys that white knuckle, like you’re describing it where they’re just. Dry drunk and they’re doing everything to just not do the behavior, but what, like I said, what comes out? Sideways rage, emotional abuse, psychological abuse of their partner.

They’re manipulative, they’re controlling, they’re angry. They’re overwhelmed with all of these other things. And maybe they’re. There’s even, um, comorbidity with alcohol or, or something else to try to help them cope with it. So the, the elimination of the unwanted behavior is never the answer.

Carrie: Yeah. Talk with us about the shame piece, cuz I can imagine that you have Christian men that come there and say, “you know, I spiritually, I am free in Christ and I am a new creation and I’ve been made new and they’ve, I’m sure prayed about this struggle, maybe memorized Bible verses.” And they still feel stuck like in this cycle. And then they’re ashamed because they’re like, I can’t seem to get, get out of it. How do you guys address this?

Matt: On the one hand, Christian men struggle immensely with shame around unwanted sexual behaviors. And on the other hand, it’s not that dissimilar to, to other guys, but the things that are unique to the Christian experiences. I’m not just damaging myself and my own relationships.

I feel a brokenness and a separation in my relationship with God, which is a huge piece or the number one piece of my identity. There’s this spiritual stressor on top of the relational stressor on top of everything else, Christian men are carrying that around as a disruption within their own identity as, uh, men created by God.

For his perfect and for his glory, right? It’s an extra weight on their shoulders. Then, the odd thing is, and I guess it’s not too surprising that theologically, they won’t argue with you that you know, that I’m loved by God and that God forgives me and that God died for me. And that I am a new creation and all the things that you said, Carrie, but functionally, they don’t really act.

They don’t really believe it. So they have theological beliefs on one hand and functional beliefs on the other. So they will look around in the group of, of men that are doing group therapy together. And this, you know, God loves all of you guys. And the subtext there is God loves everybody, except for me, S is by faith for everyone, but me, but I have to prove it.

I have to earn it or the idea. That is sneaky because it’s so close to the truth that sin separates me from God. And that I have a disrupted relationship with God because of this addiction. Paul says in Romans there’s nothing height or depth or life or death or angels or demons that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

So in a way, sin separates us from God, but Jesus has bridged that. Gap. And then we accept him in relationship and, as our savior and as the justifier and the one who’s made us right before God, then there isn’t anything separating us. And even addiction cannot separate us from God, even an addiction that feels, uh, shameful and dark and isolating.

So part of the treatment for Christian men is bringing into question some of their theological beliefs. And do you actually really believe. And do you function as if you do, and what would it be like if you actually functioned as if these theological beliefs were true? And what we find with Christian men is that trauma is the culprit yet again because trauma causes me to treat God and, and to project onto God, the caregiver relationships that I was wounded by.

So. As fast. Absolutely. Like if you talk to somebody who was abused by a parent and you get down to the nitty-gritty, their functional belief is that God is out to get them, that they are bad and that God wants to punish them or hurt them or withhold good things from them because they’re bad. And they deserve to be punished, which is hot box.

And if they grew up in an emotionally dismissive environment, emotionally, they. They tend to believe that God has his back to them and that they have to perform to get him to demonstrate love and care and warmth and affection for them. And they have to do the right rain dance to get God to respond.

And in both of these scenarios, religion, And superstition weasel their way in where Christian guys would be like, Hey man, I’m doing all the right things. I’m putting all the quarters in the pot machine and on, God’s not doing what I want him to do. I prayed for 10 years to, for him to take away this addiction.

And he’s not, or I’m a missionary or I’m a passion. I devoted my life to this and God is letting me down as if this rain dance and performance is gonna manipulate God into treating me the way that I wanted to. So now issues of resentment have popped up in their relationship with God. So it’s layered and nuanced, but one of the joys of working with Christian men is helping them come into a deeper understanding of the ways in which trauma has polluted, even their relationship with God, and seeing the rule on and, and see renewal around that super.

Carrie: Some of the greatest distances between our head and our heart. You probably have heard someone say that before, so we can know the right things theologically, and yet they haven’t really sunk down into our heart in an emotional level of yes. Like I am a child of God, like really able to sit with that and rest in it versus like, oh yeah, I know I’m God’s child like, well, yeah, I know. Yeah. You know, nothing can separate me from his love. it’s a different level there.

Matt: So, yeah.  And that’s a, like, again, a function of the attachment that they experienced. Right. They were told that they were loved or they assumed that they were loved. So like an abusive parent, you know, I’m sorry, I did that.

I’m sorry. I blew up. I’m sorry that blah, blah. You know, I love you, right? No, I love you, right. Oh. And then what’s the kids’ response every time. I used to work with children and, and, and they’ll agree. And they’ll be like, yeah, I, yeah, I know, you know, little littles, little kids assume that their parents love them and that they are gonna respond to them.

The next time, even if all of the evidence tells them that they won’t. So it’s this cognitive understanding of what love is with a lack of experiencing that love. And it’s the same way for the cold box kids. So they talk to guys all the time and they’re like, oh yeah, I have great childhood. Dad came into all my baseball games.

We went on vacation or whatever, but when you get down to. Nitty gritty. Like there was no eye contact. There was no physical affection, no one ever talked about emotions. Everything was, you know, tamped down. And again, they’re being told that they’re loved, but they’re not experiencing that. So why would it be any different than their relationship with God?

My obligation then as a Christian is to assume that God loves me, even when I don’t or have never really experienced that love, cuz I probably wouldn’t know it even if it fit me on. 

Carrie: Tell me about the recovery program that you’re involved with and what that looks like. 

Matt: Boulder Recovery and our kind of sister program, the secular program begin again, Institute.

Those are 14-day intensive programs where we bring guys from all over the country to stay with us for two weeks. And they all come in together and they all leave together. So it’s kind of cohort model. We do intensive trauma therapy every day of that program. And we also do psychoed around trauma and addiction and attachment wounding and expose them to different trauma modalities so that they can get to the root of their traumatic experiences.

Feel through those experiences, learn how those have developed and perpetuated their a. Then we teach ’em about neurochemistry and dopamine, the, you know, addiction cycles and things like that. And so we, so we’re teaching ’em about trauma and how to feel their feelings. We teach them about the neurochemistry and the brain, and we teach them how their addiction is damaged, their relationships, and how that has developed and how that has happened.

And then we equip them to, uh, begin a strong recovery. So those are kind of the four major beats of the program over those two weeks. And that whole time we’re doing individual trauma sessions and group, uh, trauma work. It’s really helpful for guys. It’s a strong running start into lifelong recovery.

Carrie: Have you, do you have some data surrounding people that you followed up with say at 30 days or 90 days after your program or six months?

How, what has that looked like for you guys as far as success rates? 

Matt: We have about like a 94, 90 5% satisfaction rating. It’s really high. You know, I don’t like to talk about that stuff because people that are those are guys that are just leaving the program. They really enjoyed it. And they, they really felt like they made a lot of growth, but they haven’t quite gone back to the real world yet.

And then the guys that we do hear from positively like that’s kind of a select sample size, isn’t it? Where they’re just. That you hear about, right? Yeah. But we do get a lot of positive feedback. We see a lot of success and we have a network of therapists all over the country that we refer to get referrals from.

They keep coming in and, and we hear from our refers all the time that, uh, guys are making breakthroughs and, and are changing their lives when they get back. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. So do you see it as like a way for them to really kickstart their recovery process. And then of course, they’re gonna need follow-up like therapy to continue working through some of the hose things.

Matt: You’re not gonna be able to cure. You know, compulsive behavior and addiction in two weeks, but what you can do sure is crack some things open, look at things from a new perspective, do some deep dives because you can’t really do that in weekly therapy. You do, you, you make a, you make some big gains in, in a trauma session, but then you, you know, put your seatbelt back on and you go back to work or.

Go home. And then it’s the kids and job and stress, and it’s hard to get traction sometimes in those deeper issues. And what we can do is keep guys in the work for eight hours, 14 days in a row. And, um, you can see a lot of progress in a lot of change, um, through that kind of method. And so it’s a great avenue for people that are entering into recovery.

It’s a good thing for guys who have been sober for a while and kind of need a tune-up. And it’s a great opportunity for guys who have been sober for a long time, but are still struggling with residual effects of trauma. So we see all three types of guys. What I really enjoy is working with guys that are motivated and, uh, motivated to change, motivated to grow.

And that’s not all of our clients, by the way, like sometimes guys are like, decide they want to come see us register with us. And then somewhere in flight, I assume they decide that they’re not an addict anymore and they show up and they’re like, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if this is for me, you know, but at that point we kind of, we kind of got ’em, we got their keys and their phone and everything and, and the rest of the group can say, Hey man, I think this is a serious issue for you too.

So there’s some, sometimes we get some guys that are stuck in denial and, but we can work. We can work through that. 

Carrie: So as we’re getting towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person

Matt: Yeah, I was thinking about this before, cuz I knew you were gonna ask me that and I just get so much of that in my life.  I’m blessed to have that, you know, guys will email me all the time. I have this one guy who just emails me a picture of his chip. Every couple months. So like, he’ll take a picture of an essay. They have these little coins. And he’ll just take a picture. He just send me his one-year coin and no, no text, nothing.

Yeah. It’s like no subject line. It was just like a picture of his, his coin. It’s always fun to get those, but I did get an email last week from a guy who just wanted to be an encouragement and just, Hey, I just wanna remind you that you guys changed my life. He was telling me how he is moved back in with his wife and, um, his kids.

And he’s been sober for nine months. He’s just really killing it. So it’s always encouraging to get those kind of emails and to speak with guys that are finding traction and how. Not just because they’re no longer like in the deep hole of addiction, but because they’re becoming authentic and whole people and the kind of people that you really wanna spend time with, not just people that aren’t doing a thing

Carrie:  Yeah. It’s like there was something to replace the addiction with. Like, you can’t just get rid of it. You have to replace, put something back in there, like the health and the wholeness and the peace.

Matt: Yeah. And we just, we say authenticity because, you know, back when those wounds happened, when they were kids, that’s what they lost. They lost the ability to be authentic and they had to perform or hide or cope, but whatever they were doing, they weren’t being themselves. And that, that real and valuable person that was created by God and his image deserves to be returned to and explored and not hidden under this blanket of addiction. We talk about returning to authenticity. And that’s probably the highest compliment for American men is to be told that, you know, oh, that guy, that guy’s real, that guy, that guy’s a real guy. He’s real. Yeah. Awesome. That’s what we get to see. So very exciting.

Carrie: Well, I think that what you’re doing is great.

I hope you guys keep on doing it. And I know that you’re helping a lot of people and hopefully, this podcast will, you know, open people up to this as a hopeful opportunity for maybe someone. Maybe themselves personally, or someone in their life who may be struggling. Thank you so much for coming and sharing today.

Matt: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Carrie. You know, I appreciate what you’re doing too, bringing hope to people that are suffering from compulsivity and anxiety. And yeah, there’s a lot of that in the world right now. So thank you too.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of, By The Well Counseling in Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you

51. Surrendering Our Insomnia to God with Dr. Charles Page

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 51. Surrendering Our Insomnia to God with Dr. Charles Page

Today on the show, I’m privileged to be interviewing Dr. Charles Page, a surgeon, author and speaker.  Dr. Charles shares with us how he surrendered his sleep problems to God.

  • Why did Dr. Charles write a book about insomnia?
  • Christian worldview about sleep
  • Dr. Charles’s tips and strategies to beat insomnia and sleep better.
  • Scripture verses related to sleep
  • How do we surrender to God?
  • Dr. Charles’s book: Surrendered Sleep

Scripture verses discussed: Psalms 121:4-5, Psalm 4:8, Ephesians 4:27, Psalm 148

Links and Resources

Dr. Charles PageBook: Surrendered Sleep

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 51

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 51. I’m your host Carrie Bach, and we are covering all types of topics on the show related to anxiety. I have wanted to have someone come on and talk about sleep for quite some time. Because as we know, many people who struggle with anxiety deal with insomnia, and this topic is especially timely for me because I was up in the middle of the night, just last night, having a hard time going to sleep.

Carrie: So I am so glad that Dr. Chuck Page, a surgeon, and author of Surrendered Sleep is here to talk with us today. Thank you for coming. 

Dr. Chuck: Well, great to be here with you, Carrie and I got up about three o’clock this morning, too. So are I share your pain. 

Carrie: How did a surgeon come to write a book on insomnia?

Dr. Chuck: Well, that’s kind of a convoluted story. Let me make it short. My whole adult life I’ve suffered from sleep issues. Just the regular things that people face every day, the things that raise through our minds, our to-do list and all the woulda shoulda kudos of the day And then all the things that we are anticipating or worrying about it the next day.

So all of those things, but on another level, my whole adult life I’ve been an insomniac because I’m a surgeon. I’m on call all the time. I get called in the middle of the night, even when I’m not on call. Yeah, people call me at three o’clock in the morning to say, hey doc, what you’re doing? We just want to know that. Just want to see what you’re up to at three o’clock in the morning. So it’s been really challenging for me from that standpoint. Then on another level, I have sleep apnea, I didn’t even know it and I’m kind of one of those who do, as I say, not as I do doctors, I’ve kind of gone through this process of learning myself about sleep disorder.

So it kinda hits me in a lot of different ways. I think that’s kind of one of the take-home messages that I want your audience to really think about is that a lot of times its not just one thing. It’s multiple things that are hitting us as we lay our heads on our pillow. 

Carrie:  Yes. Physical and mental health things can be coming up at night.

Dr. Chuck: Yep. 

Carrie: Yeah. So what scriptures have you found that speak to sleep specifically? 

Dr. Chuck: Oh, my goodness. So there’s a lot. There’s a lot of scriptures that talk about it. So it’s interesting as I began to kind of deal with this, I began to realize how much the Bible has to say about sleep. It’s kind of funny. Most people don’t think about going to the scripture with their sleep issues, but you think about it, sleep was God’s idea. One of the interesting things, you being a psychologist, I know you face this, as a medical doctor, I face this. There are different worldviews out there.

Do you think about it? No one can explain sleep. I mean from a natural secular worldview thinking as it from an evolutionist, they don’t have an explanation for sleep or they have some very brilliantly stupid ideas that somehow, but from that worldview, they don’t have an explanation for why we go to sleep.

You think about it. Humans are unique because we sleep about eight hours in a 24-hour cycle, as opposed to elephants or giraffes, or dear me, nicely of about two hours. From an evolutionary standpoint, if you think about it from that worldview, you snooze, you lose. So it’s, it’s really hard to explain.

Now we know from a Christian worldview that sleep was God’s idea. So the scriptures have a lot to say about sleep. Yeah, can look at the Bible and say, okay, here are the 11th commandment. You shall sleep eight hours. I’ve read some books that people say, you know what God’s promised you and a good night’s sleep. There are not really any passages that say that. There’s no turn to the fourth book of sleep and we’re going to study this. I mean you have to kind of look at the Bible on a kind of a bigger picture to really understand what it says. The main thing is there’s a lot of attitudes that emerge for the circumstances that we’re facing.

So yeah, there’s a ton and I can just kind of go through all those, but just beginning with the first kind of a concept, sleep was God’s idea. We were created to sleep and I think one of the big ideas that the scriptures tell us and kind of fits in with the rest of our lives. One of the reasons I think that we were to sleep is because God really wants us to turn off. When you think about the creation story, starting in Genesis one. It’s a funny phrase, it says in the evening and the morning was the first day. And so it’s funny, we get it the other way around. We think, well, those day starts when the sun comes up.

When I get up in the morning, that’s when the day starts. No, from the Hebrew standpoint of the day, the day started when the sun went down and so they began their day with rest. That’s an interesting, different, very different perspective than the way we live in our modern culture. We can say, hey, we turn the lights off, and hey, goodnight God, I’m going to bed. I’ll see you in the morning. But actually, the scriptures talk about how God never slumbers or sleeps 120 seconds song. God never slumbers or sleeps that He is just as active and working in our lives as we put our heads on our pillow. That’s one of the great things I think to bring in that, that the Christian can bring into to rest is that, hey, whatever circumstances we’re going through, God’s got this.

So just kind of keeping that big idea that God is just as active as He does. He doesn’t go to sleep when we do. So he’s still working in our lives and I think that’s one of the first things to kind of understand about who got it. 

Carrie: Okay. I always like to say God’s bigger than any problem that you’re going to face today, so we don’t feel like we can handle it, but it’s easy for God. He can handle anything. I know that we talked about this a little bit earlier, but worrying thoughts about our present life, sometimes just thoughts about the state of the world. It can keep us up at night and we’re taught in the Bible or pray about these things in order to receive peace from God. Have you found specific prayer practices or strategies helpful when you’re awake, either having trouble falling asleep or waking up in the middle of the night? 

Dr. Chuck: Yes. I think we need to make whatever routine. I mean, once again, we’re personal beings and we each have a unique relationship with God for the Christian. But I think beginning your day in scripture and prayer, and just a time of just journaling or whatever you do, do that before you go to bed and do that in the morning and kind of sandwich your laugh into sleep.

And so one of the interesting things, so often the things that race through our mind and rob us asleep, I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience. But sometimes like, I’ll be thinking about a situation may be. Oh my goodness, I face things every day, all kinds of things and that theme begins to pop into my mind and I pray about it as I don’t even read scripture.

It seems like prayer and I give it to God and then five minutes later, it’s pop base boomerang back into my consciousness. It really plagues my slave. So one of the things I think that we often forget is the art of meditation. Meditation is so powerful. You guys talk about, cognitive behavioral therapy, think about the good things but it’s even from a scriptural standpoint. It’s a lot deeper than that. I mean, it’s not an Eastern meditation where we’re emptying our mind, actually, meditation is filling our mind. It’s kind of the law of replacing. So often when a competing thought or we’re worrying thought enters our mind, we can’t just take it out of our mind because it’ll boomerang back into our thinking.

We have to replace it and that’s where meditation comes in. For example, Philippians, everybody knows Philippians chapter four, it talks about, in everything, give prayer and in that verse, it talks about there’s anything good, anything noble, anything, think about these things. It’s talking about the art of meditation and I think that’s so key for us because as you show me your focus, I’ll show you your future, and as we begin to focus on the scriptures and begins to fill our minds with the good stuff. So that’s part and you can even go back to the songs.

For example, if you think about David, one of the songs is the fourth song. It was in the evening Psalm that David prayed when he was going through the toughest time of his life. This was when Absalom Salaam had usurped the throne and he was running for his laugh crossing, the Jordan river and people were and fingers at aim. It was just multiple stuff that was robbing  his sleep. As he goes through this process, and it says in Psalm 4:8, I will lay me down in peace and sleep for you, Lord. Let me dwell in safety and so this process of prayer and meditation, I think is huge.

So, hey, have you ever heard of the hippocampus part of the brain? So it was interesting. No, it’s not an exhibited Azu okay. The hippocampus is a part of the brain for the audience. What the hippocampus does is the hippocampus take short-term memory and embed it into long-term memory. And so at the end of the day, our hippocampus goes to work. So as we’re sleeping, the hippocampus is constantly taking all of those memories of the day and it begins to embed them in our long-term memory and that’s why it’s so important. But back to your question that we stop and we begin to process those events that have happened during the day. I mean, it’s just so simple because if we don’t, instead of getting better, we’re going to get better, those bad experiences, we all have this stuff.

I mean, think about all the COVID stuff that everybody’s dealing with now and just these experiences and so being able to filter them through the scriptures and be able to process them, I think is very healthy. It talks about in Ephesians four, I think 26, it talks about, not to give the devil a foothold, but to deal with your anger before you go to bed. So I’m paraphrasing that, but so often we have these emotions that just, man, you probably never have those Carrie being a counselor, but people mad at me all the time, you killed a grandma, you didn’t do this. You didn’t or something didn’t turn out the way that I expected them.

When I have a bad day, I really have a bad day. So being able to filter those things in and deal with those emotions is huge. We have to let the natural processes of the way we were designed work for us. And so we don’t have to do much. I mean, the devil doesn’t have to do much when we’re not meditating and praying the scripture. So I guess that was a long answer to your question, but that’s what I do. I try to meditate. I try to read, I try to pray, do all those things.  I think that’s what most people deal with. It’s called primary insomnia. Most people have trouble going to sleep. 

Carrie: Okay. So what do we do for those of us that wake up in the middle of the night? Because that’s my problem. I normally do not have problems going to sleep. I can just ask out, but then when it comes to, I wake up with thoughts in the middle of the night.

Dr. Chuck: Well, good for you. That’s great and I don’t either, because usually, I’m so exhausted by the time I get to bed. It’s funny. They say those who sleep like a baby probably don’t have one, and I haven’t been my wife and I have such different sleep habits. So, I tell people I’m the best, get the best guy to see on the worst day of your life. My wife is the best person to see any day of your life. But for me, when I’m woken up in the middle of the night, one thing that I’ve learned to do many times when I’m kind of tossing and turning in my bed is take a step back and listen to God sometimes.

Those are opportunities that God is trying to get our attention. I think most of us and the culture that we lay, I remember going so fast during the day that we don’t have time to really stop and listen, and God wants to speak to us. And sometimes He has to, He has to wake us up and not to get our attention. And so you don’t think about that. You go back to study in first Samuel, the story of Samuel. He has a little boy and they’re at the table with Eli and he’s going to sleep, and God’s saying Eli, he gets up and goes. Samuel gets up and goes to Eli and back and forth all the time, and God’s trying to get his attention to give him a message and he doesn’t catch it.

I wonder how many times I’ve done and it’s actually an opportunity, to meet with God and think about what Samuel would have missed out on. He would have never stopped and heard the wind. That was the beginning of a series of steps that set the same direction. And so often when I’m waking up in the middle of night, just kind of keeping them in mind, God, are you saying something to me? And sometimes He’s not. I always try to keep a journal at the bedside because sometimes it’s something a thought will come into my mind and it may be just a random thought or it may be something that’s really something that God has woken us up to tell us. And so just to write it down and in the morning, you can look at it.

Now, the verse Psalm 7 talks about how God ministers to us, how the spirit ministers to us at night. And so looking at that and thinking about the fact that hey, this may be just something that God just write it down. How many times they’ll say him let’s sleep on it. Now I want to sleep on this message, maybe something very simple, simple about either or a person can pop into our mind. Somebody that we haven’t thought about a year. So the first thing, if you get up at night, get up and pray. Just like Samuel said, speak Lord for your servant is hearing. That’s in first Samuel three. A good rule of thumb, hey, got it. This may not be you, but it may bespeak for your servant is listening.

You’d be surprised and something, and even if we don’t have an answer, I think those times of fellowship become very precious to us, in the sense where we’re not losing anything by having those times of fellowship with God at night, when no one’s there, you can go through the Psalm 1:48. I think it talks about how God keeps me up at a meditated night upon God. And so just kind of thinking about that, it’s a very different perspective of sleep than we get. So it may be a divine appointment. You’re correct. 

Carrie: It’s a good time to be quiet. The house is quiet. There’s not much going on. There aren’t really a whole lot of distractions, maybe that can, we can’t do too much. We don’t want to wake up other family members. So it is a good time to sit down, maybe in reading or praying. Sometimes I will get up and write and I’ll just type whatever’s on my mind and it’s kind of a brain dump in the middle of the night.

And I wonder if you know, I’m not, it’s some of those things that may be that I didn’t take the time or have the chance to process. Sometimes things happen, in the evening, like right before you go to bed, and sometimes that can really throw me off. Sometimes on Tuesday nights, we’ll have church director meetings via zoom and I’ll be thinking about what our pastor was talking with us about or upcoming church things that we have going on. I don’t always have a lot of time to process that before I go to sleep. I think I ended up waking up in the middle of the night. 

Dr. Chuck: I think everybody who listened to this is going, yep, I get it. But one of the things you brought up Carrie, that I think is very important is journaling. I didn’t really realize this, but this book that I wrote about sleep was I really thought I was writing it for other people, but really in a sense, I was writing it for myself as my own way of dealing with the spiritual component of sleep. And I’m realizing that too, with the rest of the books that I’m writing, I mean, really. Journaling is a way that helps us process the events in our lives that I think is so productive. And if you know, if anybody in your audience has never tried journaling, get up and write, and you’d be surprised, you’d be surprised what just a little bit of introspection and thinking will do.

Carrie: You would be surprised at what comes out. A lot of times, one time I realized, oh, well, I’m worrying about something that’s the way in the future that I don’t have any control over. I was like, well, that’s not even close to where I’m at today. That’s really an opportunity for me to let go. You have lots of worries about the future. So how can, because your book is called Surrender to Sleep. So for people that, I mean, we have a hard time sometimes letting go of control. Let’s be honest. We want to try to control things that we don’t have any control over. That obviously creates a lot of anxiety. How do we surrender that over to God and not pick it up five minutes later?

Dr. Chuck: Wow. That is one of those million-dollar questions that, I think we all struggle with Carrie. I think surrender is a process, pass or disease go or just surrender, but it’s us thinking about that, it really is a process. It’s a stepwise process. It is an attitude. I think that we have to embrace this concept of surrender, control even as a Sergeant because I’m a control freak because even, in the operating room or patient, just the smallest thing can make a huge difference. And so, and it’s really hard to realize that control is just an illusion from an earthly standpoint.

And so realizing that if we do yield to God, God’s grace begins to empower us to be able to work more according to His plans and just release the outcome into what God wants. So surrender is huge and it’s I think a lifelong process that we go through. But once again, I think we were created, I think it’s just a reminder every day. If we were, God created us to surrender, that’s what sleep is about. It’s just, it really is. We have to let go and let God do for us what we can’t do for ourselves. What a picture of grace. It’s not saying not to minimize our responses, but yet to understand that we let go, God’s going to do some great things and so that’s what I’ve learned. That’s what my book is about. It’s just really changing focus. You show me your focus, I’ll show you your future.

And so if we focus so often we think about sleep, we think about, oh man, it’s 11 o’clock or three o’clock in the morning. I can’t sleep and I’ve got all this stuff to do tomorrow. And man, the male in our mind just starts working and we begin to worry and we began to meditate. We meditate on our fears and stuff. But if we change focus and we focus on our relationship with God, it doesn’t mean that God’s going to promise a good night’s sleep, but He will give us, we have to trust His sovereignty that even if we’re wake up and we’re tired, we’re exhausted, God’s still got that. I mean, God’s still going to give us the energy that we need to do the things that He wants us to do the next day. It is just a kind of bigger picture understanding of God’s grace in His work. 

Carrie: I think you do bring up a good point there because we get stressed out after we’ve been awake for a little while in the middle of the night or after we can’t go to sleep, then we’re stressed about before now we’re stressed about not sleeping. Oh, I’m only going to get five hours, I’m only going to get four hours. I’m going to just try to go back to sleep this last hour before the alarm clock goes off and you get real trippy about it. So that definitely happens to a lot of people.

Dr. Chuck: But I’ll tell you something and that’s the thing about surrender. Sometimes it means that we sacrifice our sleep to help other people. And I have to do that a lot. I have to get myself up out of bed and go and go to the hospital or answer a phone call or whatever. And just having that attitude that, hey Lord, whatever tomorrow brings Your grace is going to be sufficient. They helped me through that and just keeping that perspective has really helped me a lot. 

Carrie: Good. Well, we’ll definitely put links in the show notes to your website and your books and where people can find out more information. If they want to get the book. So at the end of every podcast, I ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.

Dr. Chuck: And thinking about this, Carrie, I just want to just leave you with a personal story. So, I’ve been practicing surgery for 26 years. I’m 54 years old and I’ve seen a lot of changes in medicine. It’s kind of funny, I’m becoming one of those old dinosaurs. So anyway, as health care has really changed in the past 10 years, I can’t say that I’ve always responded in the most positive ways.

A lot of bitterness, a lot of things, just a lot of stuff because there’s the way things should be and the way things are. And I think we all live with those kinds of attention. In our laws and once again, that’s something that keeps us up at not sometimes, but what’s interesting over the past several years, just realize it is that I’m going through a different season of life, that I had to make some decisions about my lifestyle.

And the biggest breakthrough I’ve had in the past couple of years is changing my lifestyle. I had to stop taking calls at the hostel. And as a surgeon, a lot of the ways you value yourself is how much work you do in the hospital. But it was a real step of faith for me is that I had to say, okay, good. I’m just not a 30-year-old guy anymore that can stay up three days and deal with stress and pressure. So as I began to say no to a lot of things, to stop being a doormat to the hospitals, and I know that sounds crazy, but as in my job, as a rural surgeon, I mean, they call me for everything. And so in taking a step back and letting go of some things, my sleep has gotten so much better.

Because like I said, it is multidimensional, as I’m getting fewer calls from the hospital in that I’m sleeping better. And then I’m able to focus on my mental health and my diet and I’m losing weight and I’m feeling better. I come home and not in my wife says, who are you married? So thinking about this, we live in this crazy nanosecond culture that’s constantly barraging us. And so getting back to the way that we were designed and created and getting along with God and cooperating with God. It’s not anything big. It’s not like a laser beam of holy spirit power helps me in, but just me and making some decisions to say, hey, this is just unhealthy.

And at this season of life, I just need, what’s funny is that God has provided for my family. I mean, I’m busier now and I’m not going into the hospital doing outpatient surgeries. And man, I just, I handle stress better. I have. People better and problems better, it’s just, my whole life has just changed.

I feel like I have a new lease on life and I’m a better doctor now than I was two years ago because I was so overwhelmed. And so what I want to encourage your audience today is to think about those things in their lives that they really need to change because so often sleep is just a symptom of a deeper problem in a deeper issue that’s going on in our lives. We didn’t even touch about medicine, but the medical problem, medical aspect of this,  but go get, go get checked. I mean, you may have a med, you may have a sleep disorder, but just keep in mind that sometimes we focus on the little, the symptoms and not on the deep root causes.

And so for me, it’s been a big, just a change of my lifestyle, which has a real spiritual component has made a world of difference and I’m sleeping better now than I ever have. And I wrote the book in that crazy, do as I say, not as I do, but I wrote the book and I didn’t realize that it was just something so simple in my life that I needed to change. And it was an aspect of luck. We’ve been talking about it as an aspect of surrender said, okay, God, you’ve got this, I’ve gotta let go of this. I can’t do this. Like I did 20 years and so I think for me, that has been the biggest thing. And I want to encourage people to just take time and reflect and think about those things that maybe that God doesn’t want them to do.

And we just pile so much on our plate. We have no margin and I think so many of our problems are self-induced that’s what I’m learning is that I can let go. They all say in a clean conscious makes us off the pill, as you make those decisions. And this is one of our attitudes, have a wise heart and make those decisions in your daily life, you set yourself up for better sleep.

Carrie: I think that that’s excellent, really evaluating what we have on our plate. And do we need to have everything on here and ask God, okay, I feel like I’m doing too much, which of these things can I let go of, or take off my plate. And that is a step of faith for us because we’re so used to doing so much often. I think that that’s great advice for people to evaluate. So I know that you told me before we hopped on here, that you have some videos on YouTube and that people can learn more about these practices. And so we’ll put some links in there in the show notes as well. Thanks for coming on and sharing with us your wisdom in between procedures.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

50. Doctor’s Offices, Prayers, and Our First Year of Marriage

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 50. Doctor’s Offices, Prayers, and Our First Year of Marriage

As promised, I’m bringing back my favorite guest in celebration of my 50th episode, it’s none other than my husband, Steve Bock! 

Steve and I are happy to share with you the ups and downs of our first year of marriage and how we remain constant in prayer.

  • Adjustments we have made as a married couple.
  • Funny and weird things we learned about each other
  • Dealing with a health scare and coping with stressful health issues and never-ending doctor appointments
  • Walking through life together and giving God all the control
  • Our shining light in the midst of a hard time
  • Our goals for the podcast 


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Transcript of Episode 50

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 50. I promised to bring back my favorite guest, my husband, Steve so we can talk about our relationship ups and downs and life that happened in our first year of marriage. 

Carrie: Welcome back, Steve. 

Steve: Thanks for having me. 

Carrie: You are my biggest fan and support, so I really appreciate you being here. We wanted to start off with a couple of fun questions. First, we got married and then we moved in together and we were adjusting to living life in the same household. What was the biggest surprise for you? 

Steve: Well, I initially thought that it would be the dishes because you put your dishes in a different place than I’m used to. The biggest adjustment was you are a sheet stealer, a blanket taker, so we can be in the same bed trying to sleep and somehow I find myself or was finding myself thinking, oh, my toes are cold. What happened to the nice sheet that I had on me? And so we had to resolve that we have separate sheets now, which seems weird to say, but otherwise, you just roll and roll and roll and roll and suddenly you’re all nice and toasty. 

Carrie: Yeah. Somehow I’m like a burrito on the covers.

Steve: A human burrito.

Carrie: I am definitely a cover hog. I will admit that. So I would say for me, the biggest surprise was related to combining households in that Steve actually has more shoes than I do. I know that women are usually the ones that are super fashionistas and do have a lot of shoes and different sites, styles, and colors. But Steve likes to have a variety of shoes and a variety of clothes and so he’s looking around the closet while we’re reading. So that was a big surprise for me and what’s bad about that is that I got rid of shoes.

Steve: I still have more than you, even though I got rid of shoes, but I want new shoes and I’m not a materialistic person. Probably my only thing is wanting more shoes. 

Carrie: Yeah. You’re not, not big into stuff. Overall. What would you say was the biggest adjustment that you feel like you had to make when we got married?

Steve: Well, there are these two fur balls that like space, like the couch and the bed and the couch I could get over, but the bed, yeah, that was difficult. They don’t know that they wanted to give up that spot next to you. Right? So that probably honestly, that was an adjustment for me. I’m used to sleeping just me and not having to worry about something jumping on me in the middle of the night, and the sound of meow outside the door or whatever the case is, but just having my place on the bed, fighting for that place with it.

Carrie: But you made friends with Lilo and Stitch because you started feeding them shortly after you moved in, Which was interesting. I was like, oh, okay, he’s taken over this responsibility. And so now when it’s dinner time, they don’t look at me. They look at you, they know who brings the food.

Steve: That’s right and I like routine. So it just made sense in the morning I get up, I get them. At night before bed, I get them food. It was an easy transition and they’re good. They’re, for the most part, they are well-behaved. They have their moment. 

Carrie: That’s true and one of the things that we did after we moved in together was we redecorated because I had been living in the house here with my roommate and just overall, the house needed a fresh coat of paint and the furniture was thrift store stuff. It was pretty run down or old and just needed to freshen things up. So we were able to, that was one thing that we did this year was, did some redecorating. This is funny in regards to the cats because now we have these accent chairs in the living room and it’s like Stitch has his chair that he likes to sit in and Lilo has her chair that she likes to sit in.

They don’t ever trade places, which is kind of funny to me. It’s like if we go out there in the living room, it’s like, sit, you’ll be in one chair and Lilo will be in the other chair. And I’m like, you guys are hilarious. So they’ve come to sleeping in the chairs now instead of trying to get in the bed with us because that way our foot doesn’t roll over on them or kick them or anything like that on intention.

We had a very unexpected year. Health-wise. Kind of wanted to share a little bit about that on the podcast. I got your full permission to talk about these things. And I said, you don’t have to talk about anything you don’t want to talk about, but I think everything that we’ve been through together and that you’ve been through has been really inspiring and has taught me a lot. I want to just talk about that.

Steve: Absolutely. 

Carrie: But it actually started out with a Kerry health challenge in the spring. I went to a very routine exam with an OB-GYN because we were talking about getting pregnant and then she said, hey, there’s this. You need to go get a mammogram and an ultrasound on that. And I thought, oh gosh, that sounds pretty serious and pretty scary. This is the timing of everything we were about to lose our insurance for about a month. So I had to kind of hurry and get this ultrasound before we lost the insurance. And I thought I don’t know if they’re going to want to do follow-up testing or biopsy something.

I don’t know that we’re going to be able to do that. How is it all going to work out? What was that like for you while we were kind of waiting for me to get the testing and then the day of the kind of waiting for me to contact you back?

Steve: That was scary because you’re not yet not knowing and your mind can play so many tricks on. Also just hearing that, we’re wanting children, we’re just dealing with life, we’re newly married. We’re all those things. I just got a new job. The insurance just changed over. It was about two and it hadn’t even changed yet. Like you said, and now I have this thought of, oh my gosh. Forget all that. What about your health? Who wants to hear that? Sure. I don’t want you to have to go. So yeah, I was a little bit scared.

Carrie: We both certainly have known people who have been younger and people who have gone through breast cancer. So it was like, oh gosh, you know, that couldn’t be me. I don’t know. I have to get this checked out. We got to check it out. It turned out to be nothing. It was fine, but a clear bill of health there moved forward. And then shortly after you started your job, you went for what was supposed to be a relatively routine eye exam and you had been telling me, my eyes hurt, my eyes hurt. And I said that’s just not normal. You need to bring that up when you go in for your eye appointment, you want to kind of tell a little bit more about that story. 

Steve: Sure and I knew that for a long time, I had sensitive eyes. So I didn’t think as much of it, but yes, I had been having a lot of eye pain. I just kept telling you that I had these eye headaches and so I go in for the routine checkup and they noticed a few things immediately. One that I had been dragging my hand across the wall while I was walking and I didn’t even realize really that I was doing that. It was such a habit, such a normal thing.

And also the bottom line, my vision was less than wonderful. We’ll just say it that way and so what seemed to be just a regular eye checkup? Nothing new, Hey, you’ve lost a lot of vision in your right eye, there’s a loss of blood flow, there’s this, there’s that we have so many things to check and you may have had an eye stroke. We went through a lot of scenarios. 

Carrie: Yeah. In the beginning, we were told it could be all kinds of things. We were originally told that your blood vessels were constricted in your eyes. We were told you could have had an eye stroke, which caused the vision loss. This seems strange because it wasn’t like you woke up one day and couldn’t see as well from your perspective. Now, we knew that you had other eye issues. You’ve had some issues with peripheral and colorblindness, but we didn’t know that that this was going on pretty much. They were like, whoa, you know, you could have a brain tumor, it could be causing this. You could have a clogged artery that could be causing this and we’re just starting to think here. Oh no, like what’s going on. 

There was another kind of fluke test that came back and we thought maybe there was something wrong with your kidney. So there for a short light, like two weeks to about a month period, we were gone, oh my gosh, are you going to die? Are you going to be okay? Like some of this stuff sounds pretty life-threatening and we have to get a handle on it and figure it out. 

Steve: And every time they would say something, it could be this, it could be that your heart starts racing a little bit. Part of me just wanted to know what, if you get to a point where you like, just tell me, just let’s figure this out and jump ahead, we still don’t really know fully, but, it’s always scary. Just not knowing is the worst part and I’ve heard people say about different things and that is so true. But we’ve got a great group of people around us, through friends, family, of course, church people who call us and tell us, or text us and tell us, Hey, we’re praying for you daily. Someone told me their child was praying for me, which was really sweet, just the different things. My good friend with cancer is praying. So it’s just helpful to hear those. 

Carrie: It’s definitely an encouragement when you’re going through something to have other people that care about you that are like lifting you up to God. So to make the long story short, you got a bunch of testing done. You had MRIs, ultrasound of your neck, you had follow-ups with doctors, you had visual testing. And then you got to this point where it was like you were going to have to see a specialist and a neurological ophthalmologist and got an appointment at Vanderbilt, but then we had to wait 10 weeks for the appointment.

Steve: Yes.

Carrie: It was a long wait. 

Steve: It was.

Carrie: Yeah, there were a lot of times where you were having pain and it was so hard for me because I couldn’t really do anything about it. Like I make it better or take that away from you. And based on some of the other things that we had been told, I was so scared that you were going to lose more vision. I know there were times when we were going through that where I just get up in the middle of the night and I’d read verses about trusting God and I just cry to say, God, you got to help him get us to the right doctors and get us where we need to go, because it’s just so sad and so painful.

Steve: And I think, honestly, that’s the hardest part is knowing that I said it was the not knowing, but seeing your spouse have to deal with it is worse because that’s not fair. No, that’s not fair to them. I have to wake up in the middle of the night. Well, it’s not fair to you. Let me say this correctly. Not fair to you to have to wake up in the middle of the night, worrying about me. I know that’s part of, we said for better or for worse, we did that in our vows. Right. But I get it. It’s still, I kind of get to the point where I’m like, man, whatever, but it’s not fair for you. That’s the hardest part. 

Carrie: You’re also that kind of personality where you don’t want anybody blessing over you or worrying about you or you don’t want to be bothering anybody or affecting them in that way. So this week was the week that we went to the neurological ophthalmologist. It was like nothing I’ve ever experienced and I’m sure nothing like you’ve ever experienced. 

Steve: No, I wouldn’t recommend that for the family funding.

Carrie: Yeah. You’re keeping your sense of humor about you. It’s in essence that they had this long hallway with multiple waiting rooms. You meet with a resident first, and then they send you off to one of the waiting rooms or, and somebody will pull you for a test. And then you’ll go to a different waiting room and be pulled for another test. You go back and you meet with the resident and the doctor. And then it was like, well, we need to do this other test. So we were literally up at Vanderbilt for four to five hours.

Steve: Yes and I will say this, Vanderbilt did a great job. They really did. Everyone there was so nice that I could, we could probably spend a whole episode just talking about all that they did and I’ll spare you. But it was probably the most difficult thing of it all was just one, I was hungry, even though we brought snack bars, you can’t prepare yourself for that kind of stress in that many hours of it. And having an ultrasound on your eye, both eyes. That’s interesting. So that was stressful, but yeah, I didn’t even know that was possible. That was a thing fairly new and it’s strange, all that goo in your eye is just, I’ll leave it at that because somebody is squirming right now. 

Carrie: Yeah. We get to the end of the appointment and he says probably, I think one of the worst things that he could say here we are bracing ourselves for, oh, gosh, you’ve got a degenerative eye condition, you’re going blind, you’ve got glaucoma, you’ve got this serious eye issue and we’re kind of bracing ourselves for something like that like you need surgery. He literally says I have no explanation for this pain that you’re experiencing and I have a couple of other hypotheses, but you’re going to have to go elsewhere to get that treatment.

You’re going to have to go to a different specialist because it’s not actually eye-related and that was rough. 

Steve: That was rough. You know, there was a moment we thought it could have been glaucoma and that was difficult to hear. But at least, in this case, you kind of want to label, or at least I did because then you can prepare for it. But not knowing is again, that’s difficult. Not why, why is this happening? Why do I not have a vision in my right eye or peripheral vision or the pain or whatever. And hearing also him say, well, it’s just weird. Your eyes are weird. That just seems like a strange word to use for that. I’m glad that I get to be a weird anomaly as he put it. That’s not what I wanted to hear. Right? 

Carrie: It’s hard for doctors when they’re looking at your symptoms and they don’t have a neat clean category to put you into. It’s like, okay, well, this kind of this piece looks like glaucoma, but this other piece over here does not look like it at all. And this piece right here, it looks like this, but this other piece, it doesn’t quite, it’s something that doesn’t quite fit with the diagnoses.

And so we’re trying a couple of different avenues. One, they gave you a different eyeglasses prescription that we’re hoping will help a little bit because maybe your eyes were strained somewhat from having an incorrect prescription from a previous provider. You’re going to be looking at some physical therapy on your neck, head to address may be a nerve that runs behind the eyes that could be upset or inflamed.

So those are kind of our next steps and we essentially got told, hey, come back and for months and we’ll see you and see if anything’s changed. Now, we’re back in January.

Steve: Which is difficult now and it’s so many people praying and they want an answer. And the best I can say is I’ll be back in four months and we have some other options. It is what it is. 

Carrie: I know that I’ve had a lot of spiritual wrestling, I think, through this process. And I talked about that a little bit earlier because you can have faith and you can pray. And certainly, people have prayed over your eyes that your vision would be restored and you wouldn’t have any more pain and sometimes it’s really hard to sit with that. God has not fully answered that prayer yet. God has not healed you yet. What is your process been like around it? 

Steve: I’ve said for me total healing, of course, that would be great. If there’s not total healing, let me just be who I’m supposed to be as a Christian, with it. I don’t want to be angry or bitter over something that nature. And it’s funny because this morning, but yesterday I’ll be honest. I was so angry. I really was because I wanted an answer. I wanted them to find something to say that, yes, you’ve lost vision in your right eye.

Carrie: And here’s why. 

Steve: Yeah and here’s why would have been great. Here’s why you had the pressure, but to sit down and ask me three or four times about the pressure with no answer is just gosh, this isn’t helping me at all, and no offense to the doctor because they’re just doing their job. 

Carrie: Right. 

Steve: But it’s just hard to hear that. So then this morning I wake up and I do a group devotion that we’ve been doing, and it talks about just relying on God’s grace and relying. Sometimes God is there with you. I forgot how I worded it and how you feel it most, in your worst times, or in your times of struggle or pain or whatever.

And I thought, well, gosh, that’s kind of now. I have to look at it and say, okay, you got this, I can’t, this is out of my control and I just have to deal with it. It’s what it is. It’s not a lack of bubble leading or that. He could heal me anytime He wants, and yet I have this and so that’s the lot that I have let’s roll with it. Let’s do with what we have. I cannot be a Christian because my eyes are hurting. That’s not an option. 

Carrie: Right. And you’re still serving in the church like that. You can be involved there. That’s another story, but we actually became the outreach directors, as I guess in December of last year, so has been great.

Steve: We get to meet so many neat and wonderful people. So that’s been a neat kind of takes my mind off things sometimes, it’s something else to focus on. So that’s good too. 

Carrie: I think it’s hard when we’re waiting on God for an answer or to move or for guidance. But I know that these really hard times also grow our character more than anything else and I’ve learned so much from just watching you and how you’ve handled your vision issues, the pain that you’ve experienced. And it’s really taught me a lot about humility. There are times where you have had to acknowledge other people. These are my limitations. These are some things that I’m not able to do, or I can’t see right now.

And that’s, that’s hard to say because you’re around a bunch of other people that can see. Okay, and maybe it’s too dark in the room or it’s too bright. And you’re having to say, yeah, I just, I can’t see that right now. 

Steve: I don’t know if it’s a pride thing, a guy thing. I don’t know what it is, but I always want to be able to do what everybody else is doing. You don’t want to say, that’s difficult, or when there’s a group of people, like the guys that say, hey, we all want to go here tonight. Oh, I can’t go because I don’t drive at night. So Carrie’s already somewhere else. I’m just going to hang out here at the house because that’s my safe space.

I don’t want to put anybody out and I don’t want to drive. So yeah, there are so many instances that I could give where it’s difficult in that sense. But it is what it is and it’s cool in a way though, because I am able to relate with a group of people that maybe others can’t.

So if there’s an older person who doesn’t see very well, I totally get that. Not because I’m old, although I’m getting older by the day here, because I get, I know what it’s like to have cataracts. I knew what it’s like to not be able to see. It’s difficult to give up the privileges of driving at night, even that was such a task. That’s very difficult. 

Carrie: It’s really been a big one. There will be times where we’ll be out and you can’t see because it’s too bright, too dark, some of your eyes are really bothering you that day. Something’s going on. Sometimes you have double vision and things are kind of blurry and you’ll just like reach out and grab onto my shoulder or onto my purse or something like that and just hold onto me. I think that that’s, that’s a picture of our Christian life. Like it’s dark like right now, things are somewhat dark and we can’t see and we have to hold on to Jesus. 

It’s not easy because, at that moment, you’re totally trusting me to take you where you need to go. I remember there was a time where we were at some fireworks for the 4th of July and we were trying to walk through this area. You said, I just can’t, I can’t anything about where we’re going right now, just make sure I don’t step at all or something. Sometimes the other thing you’ll do is you’ll watch my feet and where my feet are going, and that helps guide you in and we have this pattern of Jesus.

Jesus has already walked on the earth. Like He’s already done all the things. It’s like if we will pattern our lives, like after Jesus, it’s hard. If this not, I think for me, I’m a doer, I’m a get it done. I’m an advocate. So not having the control and really having to let go and say, okay, God, this is your department. You’re going to take care of this. I want to fix it for Steve, but I can’t and You love Steve more than I do. So I have to trust that You’re going to do it. I’m sure You’re going to, however, this is going to happen. Obviously, we pray that God’s glorified through this experience and we pray that whatever happens that we trust and know that He’s going to use it for good somehow in your life, in my life, and in the lives of other people.

Steve: It’s been, I don’t know how to say it, but as, as we have grown as a couple, it’s been such a blessing to see. I can brag on you for just a moment, you have man, you’ve scheduled my appointments for me. You advocate for me at a time when I don’t know what to ask. I don’t even get to a point where you just don’t even care anymore.

You do, but that’s how it feels sometimes. I’ve even had where my parents have said, oh my goodness Carrie, thank you, and it’s true. I feel the same way that they do. It’s such a blessing to have you there to help me there. Even just like the other night, we went out with church and, they decided to go to the family fund center or whatever that was. It was a good time but I couldn’t bowl. We tried to play some video games and that was, I guess, that was good, but you had to kind of walk me around in some cases and I didn’t get to a bowl, but I enjoyed watching you bowl and kind of forgive me, but kick butt and take names because you’re a pretty good bowler.

I feel like you hustled a little bit, but it was good. It was good to watch. Anyway, we have really learned some couples walk side by side and we walk me behind you and it’s just the way it is. That’s how much trust I have in you and faith and it’s worked out really well. Thank you.

Carrie: Yeah, it’s for me, I think it’s just really been a joy to have you in my life and it does. I know a lot of people probably would look at it as a sacrifice. I don’t, like, I just don’t feel that way because I feel like you’ve done so much for me as well. I know that if the shoe was on the other foot if something had come back and that screen and I was going through cancer.

You would be doing all those things too, you would be gone to the doctor’s appointments with me. You would be taking notes and asking questions, or I know that if things were reversed that you would be helping me out as well. It’s what you do as a married couple and some of you may have heard this or listened that marriage is not 50-50, because it just can’t be. Sometimes it really has to be like a hundred percent and a hundred percent, but there are times where your spouse may only have 25% to give because they’re sick, they’re hurting, they’re going through something. You have to help lift them up and provide that. You may have to provide that extra 75 that you need to stay strong as a couple.

It’s just part of the deal so we’re going to switch on a happier note and say that I was tracking my calendar and trying to figure out when I was ovulating, trying to get all the stars aligned because that’s what has control for people do. Right? Then I had bought some ovulation test strips, so forth, and then this stuff started happening with your eyes. I put the ovulation strips under the sink and I said, I can’t do this right now. That was the month that we got pregnant. 

Steve: That’s right. The moment you stop worrying about it and trying to control it as when God’s like, and now go. 

Carrie: Yeah. So at this recording were 13 weeks along and so when this comes out, we’ll be a little bit farther than that, but we’re super excited there. You just feel so blessed. Like this is our shining light in the midst of hard times is that God has blessed us with a child where we’re entering the old parents club. 

So we didn’t know if this was going to happen or be possible in, I think just knowing everything that I’ve been through in regards to losing my foster children and everything that you went through in a long period of singleness. Just coming to this point, we were able to say like, okay, this is really a gift. Like God is showing us a gift and everything I’ve been learning and reading about trust, I think has helped me in terms of the pregnancy. Just say, okay, if God has given us this gift, then I’m not going to worry about the baby or what’s happening because there obviously there are so many worries that you can have in pregnancy and wondering is everything gonna be okay and all of that. I’ve kind of slowed all of that down and being able to say like, okay, this is from God. We’re going to be okay. 

Steve: Yeah and it’s been kind of fun, kind of interesting. I’ve learned so much. One day I’ll come home and the baby’s the size of a raisin. Oh, isn’t that nice? It’s such a big, big baby and then the next thing you know it’s the size of a kumquat. Oh, what the heck is a kumquat? Wait a minute. I have to figure this out. How big is that? Then the next thing I know, hey, we’re the size of a lemon and by the way today, the baby has fingerprints and my fingerprints that’s amazing.

So it’s been fun and she tracks it, the things I learn and this is our baby, and dear God, I hope this baby doesn’t look like me. I hope this baby looks like Carrie. 

Carrie: But they are gonna at least start out looking like you because they’re not going to have a lot of hair.

Steve: They’re going to have more of the hair than me. I bet you. Anyway, s so many people ask me and us, do you want a boy or a girl. Maybe it’s because I’m older, I don’t know, but I’m like my answer every single time, I just want a baby. 

Carrie: Right?

Steve: I want a child. That’s what I want. Boy, girl, whatever. I just want a child and I’m excited about that. 

Carrie: Yeah. We’re just, we’re like, we’ll be happy with either one.

Steve: And I think the joy of seeing our parents’ faces. I know that my mom was so excited, so I’m sure mom will be listening to this and amen on that one. She was very excited to hear as was your mom and, and both of our dads. So it’s neat and they are excited. 

Carrie: Yeah. We had some fun with our families, for sure. We got them little onesies with their grandparent names. Obviously, because we’re having children later, we’ve had siblings that have had children. It’s not the first grandchild by any means, but still, they’re very excited for us because they know everything that we’ve been through and they knew that we were wanting to have a child.

So here we are big steps and I guess I just want to say in relation to that, I don’t know what things are going to look like for the podcast in the future. I’ve struggled because my first trimester has been pretty rough. There’s a lot of sicknesses and a lot of tiredness. I think I’m coming out of it at this point, which feels really, really good.

I’m feeling a lot more energy and less nausea. I know that there’s gonna have to be sometime off and focus on family and different things. So we’re going to do the best that we can and obviously kind of evaluate over the next year, what the podcast is going to look like, but also, what the continuation of it is going to be in January.

I’m planning to release episodes every other week, instead of every week. You have episodes to catch up on that will give you time to go back and listen to some of our older episodes. But I’m always looking for ways to expand and let other people know about the podcast. I’ve been a guest on different podcasts that can get the word out. We’re at a place where I really want to continue. I’m enjoying it. I love the interviews that I’ve been able to do. But obviously, there are definitely question marks about what is that going to look like with a baby and childcare and so forth and so on and time timing-wise to do things.

We may just have to get better about working ahead and figuring out what that looks like. I also want to make sure that being wise financially and invest resources the way that God would want me to. My goal for this next year is to have the podcast be fully fund itself. We don’t have, as we don’t have sponsors, but when we do have is a buy me a coffee opportunity where you can give money to the podcast.

I am hoping very soon. I keep dragging my feet on it, but maybe by the time this episode comes out, I really want to create a subscription service where people feel like they’re getting value every month. They’re not just donating money but they’re actually getting some relaxation audios. They’re getting question and answer time with me once a month. They’re getting maybe some workbook pages that I really want to be of value to people. Hopefully, we will be able to get enough subscribers that the podcast will be funding itself in a year. That’s the goal. What I’m shooting for God is good and He’s definitely provided the opportunity for us to be able to do this so far.

So I’m trusting Him with whatever the feature is. If I need to put it down for a season and pick it up again, or if I need to let it go, I just have to be open to whatever God wants me to do. I guess I just want to end on hope obviously because that’s how we like to nourish. I feel like the hope for me is obviously that we’re having a child. The hope is that you’re going to be able to see them and see them grow up. I’m hopeful that God is going to just protect you and protect your vision so that you won’t lose further vision and that God will relieve you of this pain. We haven’t seen it yet, but we will definitely keep you guys. 

Steve: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s I hope that you can do this for a long time because I know that you enjoy what you do and I’m biased, but I think you’re fantastic at it, but yeah, I’m excited. I’m excited. That’s been such a blessing or from the day we got married, even before that. But from the day we got married till now, and I’m excited for what the future brings and what great things you get to do with this platform as well. 

Carrie: Yeah. Thank you for sharing your story. I think it can mean being so open and vulnerable. I think it helps people because there are people going through their anxiety right now, or their OCD. They’re wondering some of the same questions like we have, like, why isn’t God healing me or why do I go to these doctors?

And I can’t get help or maybe they tried medication and it’s not working. I think it’s whenever you have a chronic condition, like anxiety or OCD, it’s a process really to get that help. I’m reading a book right now, which I really love and I won’t spoil it because I want to have the author on, but he talks about how we, our coworkers with Christ in our healing process in the journey. He’s talking specifically about anxiety, how God does His part and we do our part in that, which gives me hope that God knows obviously our limitations. God knows that we can only do so much on our part and we need that. We need Him, we need to rely on Him and we need that divine intervention.

As always, I hope this podcast really just encourages somebody today, to keep going. And if nothing else to know, like you’re not alone in your struggles. So there’s always someone who cares about you. There is even if you don’t feel like it. Yeah. Maybe if you feel isolated.

Steve: If you’re, maybe you’re like me and you don’t want to bother anyone. This is my 2 cents for what it’s worth. I’m not Carrie, don’t get me wrong here, but you’re not a bother. Somebody loves you. Somebody wants to see you better. They love you. They don’t want your problem to hold you back. Be a bother, be a smile and get better.

Carrie: Well, thank you to everyone who tuned in today. If you’d like to reach out to us, you can find us at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

49. Will Less Stuff Equal Less Anxiety? with Becca Ehrlich

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 49. Will Less Stuff Equal Less Anxiety? with Becca Ehrlich

Today on the show,  I am joined by a Christian minimalist, pastor and author, Becca Ehrlich.  
Becca and I had an interesting conversation about how minimizing and simplifying your life can help with anxiety.

  • How Becca developed an interest in minimalism
  • Different aspects of minimalism 
  • How to be more intentional with time and energy
  • The intersection between Christian faith and minimalism
  • Minimalist approach to buying things
  • Small steps to take to minimize and simplify your life
  • How to tackle the tasks of evaluating possessions and minimizing stuff as a couple.

Links and Resources:

Becca Ehrlich
Book: Christian Minimalism: Simple Steps for Abundant Living


Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

Let’s Talk About Hoarding!

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 49

Hope with Anxiety and OCD Episode 49. If you’re new to the show, I’m your hot Carrie Bock and today we are talking about the connection between having too much stuff or clutter that invades our lives and how that can cause us anxiety. We can’t find things anymore because there’s too much stuff in the way or we have piles around maybe that is crushing our creativity, things that are keeping us, from doing everything that God has called us to do.

Carrie: So here today with me or a discussion of Christian minimalism is Becca Ehrlich, who is a pastor and Christian minimalist. Thank you for joining me today. 

Becca: Thanks for having me. This is going to be fun. 

Carrie: So you once had what some would quote, call the American dream like I have a spacious house and I have lots of stuff in it. What kind of suffering do you feel like coming from at some point of having too much. 

Becca: I sort of bought into pun intended. The idea is that the reason we exist is to have more, more stuff, more time commitments, more things. We use our energy and time for more recognition, all of that like more status. And so we bought a 3000 square foot house and then and it was just me and my husband, and when you have that much space, you fill it with stuff cause it just looks weird to have empty space sometimes or so we’ve been told.

Carrie: Makes sense. 

Becca: So did what normal folks would do in consumer culture and filled it with a bunch of stuff. And then we moved, we moved into a smaller place just because that’s what was available at the time where we were moving and we did not have enough room for all this stuff. So we rented a huge storage unit outside of town and we filled it, they call it high and tight.

So it was literally like wall-to-wall stuff, ceiling to floor stuff and we couldn’t even get into this stuff if we wanted to in that storage unit. Then in our new place, it was like stuff was coming out of corners and out of closets and it was just stuffed to the gills with all the stuff. It was just not helpful for my life I couldn’t find anything. It was things that would fall on top of me. We’ve all been there. Right? You open the closet, it is just all down and it was just not good for my well-being. I just didn’t like it and so when I discovered minimalism, which by the way is not just about stuff, right? Our issue was stuff, but a lot of other people could be other things. It made sense to us and we were like, I think we need to start living a little bit more minimally. 

Carrie: How did you discover this and develop this interest in minimalism? 

Becca: I watched Netflix and my life changed. 

Carrie: Wow. 

Becca: No one expects their life to change when they’re watching Netflix. But that is what happened. I have a chronic illness, so I was having bad health, and usually, when I have a bad health day, I kinda chill on the couch and watch Netflix or whatever. And I was browsing through, I watch a lot, a lot of documentaries and it recommended the minimalism documentary, the original one by the minimalists.

I’d never heard of minimalism before. I had no idea what I was like, well, it’s only an hour and 15 minutes. So if it’s terrible, it’s only an hour and 15 minutes of my life that I wasted and it was the opposite. Like I watched it and said, oh my gosh, I think this is something I need to do and my husband will get home from running errands and I was like, you gotta watch this and he was like, I don’t know. He eventually sat down with me and we watched it together and he said, you know what, I think this is something we need to do. 

Carrie: That’s good. You definitely have to get your spouse on board if you’re married and are going to do this.

Becca: Yeah, I will say though, that like both of us have very different ways. We live out minimalism, which I think is also okay. So you don’t necessarily have to be completely on the same page and agree with all the things you just have to know. Be okay with each other, living out a very simple life.

Carrie: So you said that it’s not just about the stuff. Can you tell us about some of the other aspects of minimalism? 

Becca: Yeah. So basically minimalism is a focus on the aspects of life that matter most and intentionally removing everything. So at its core, it’s living intentionally and getting rid of anything, that’s keeping you from focusing on what’s most important. So that can be anything, right? Like for a lot of people, it’s stuff, because of how consumer culture works, we’ve accumulated too much stuff, but for other people, it could be time commitments. Like maybe you said yes to all the things out of obligation or because you felt like you had to, or were expected to, or whatever.

It could be chasing wealth and status and fame. That’s also something that’s glamorized in consumer culture. So paring down your life to be more intentional and focus on the most important things like relationships and self-care, passion, and things like that. 

Carrie: It’s interesting that you say that about not chasing fame and fortune. I just had a conversation with another entrepreneur this morning that we just get together and have business chat. She told me, everybody’s trying to chase this six to seven-figure thing. She’s like, I just don’t need all that. I just, I mean, I need a few thousand dollars to pay my bills and live okay. 

She’s like, what do I need to make six figures for us? That’s not what’s important to me and so that’s kind of exactly what you’re saying. Like finding what’s really important and really valuable and this individual also has a daughter. So obviously it’s important for her to have time to spend with her and to have self-care and have enough rest. So do you feel like having the chronic illness or receiving that diagnosis affected this? 

Becca: Oh yeah. I think for folks who don’t have an infinite amount of energy and health that’s everybody really, but especially folks who are living with illness, living more simply and more minimally, it just makes the most sense because you’re just more intentional about what you’re using your time and energy for.

So it was a no-brainer for me as someone with chronic illness, because I just have to be more intentional about how I’m using my time and energy throughout the day. Because if I don’t, by the end of the day, I’m just going to be dead meat and maybe the next day I’m going to be dead meat. 

Carrie: It’s interesting because my husband, I got married last year in October and my husband calls me a minimalist, which I find kind of funny because I wouldn’t necessarily put that label on myself, but he really sees how I interact with stuff specifically for buying.

Like, I may see something and say, oh, that’s, cool or something, but I really don’t have space for that extra gadget in my kitchen. I mean, where would I put that? I just don’t know that I would really use that a whole lot, or I just don’t need that. You think about how many people have invested in multiple kitchen appliances that don’t pull them out of the cabinet or don’t use them.

I watched the documentary as you did as well and it really made me. Actually, the minimalists have a podcast I’ve listened to some of their podcasts episodes as well. And I appreciate some of their values that they repeat a lot to like using things, not people, the memories are not in the stuff like they talk about, not having to hold on to every family heirloom that you have because of your memory with your relative. 

So even though I don’t think that they say anything specifically about their faith, I do believe that some of those values can be translated over and aligned, with Christian values. And I imagine that you, you found that same thing and, and that was how you started, like writing on your blog.

Becca: Yeah at the time. So when I discovered minimalism, it was the end of 2017. So there, there really wasn’t like. I researched it afterward because I was like, oh, they talk the minimums, talk a lot about meaning and so the implication being, you’ll be able to find more meaning in your life when you’re living more simply and focusing on what’s most.

Which makes sense and I was like, oh, that’s really interesting because usually meaning is something that you find through religious tradition. And for me as a Christian, I found that a lot of what they were talking about aligns very well with Jesus’s teachings and what’s in scripture. And so I was like, I want to read more in-depth about this and at the time there really wasn’t anything out there. There were a couple of articles or blog posts or maybe a YouTube video here and there, but there was nothing in Greece and that’s so that’s why I ended up writing about it. Because I was like, okay, well, I can’t be the only one that’s interested in this intersection between the Christian faith and minimalism and I wasn’t, which is great, but it’s really interesting because like when you write, you really discover things about yourself while you’re writing, it’s like, that’s why people journal and things like that.

So the blog has really helped me discover things about why I accumulated stuff in the first place and why I say yes to things when I really shouldn’t and really helped me get at the core reasons why I do things that are not serving me well And that’s helped me live more minimally.

Carrie: Talk with us a little bit about that putting the pause button on getting new things, because everyone can go through their stuff or their closet and be like, yeah, I don’t need this. I’m getting rid of it, going to give it away, whatnot put it in the garage sale. But then next thing you know, six months later, they’re back in the same place with too much stuff.

So I’m curious, like what that process was like for you, like in terms of your evaluation of buying things or having to approach things differently. 

Becca: Yeah, one of the big things for me, and this is what I always tell people is that you have to find your why, your reason for, to live more simply because if you don’t do that and it’s just so like the decluttering movement. For example, it’s super trendy right now, basically, it’s just about getting rid of stuff which in itself is not bad. But like as you said, it’s not going to last, if you don’t get at the core reason why you want to simplify in the first place, because you’re just going to accumulate back the things that you got rid of eventually. So finding your personal why. 

Like, for me, it was spending more time with friends and family. It could be other things for other people. Maybe you want to go back to school or whatever. There’s a wide range of wise. You want to do this but find your why, and that will also help keep you motivated because it’s not super glamorous to minimize. It sounds cool and you get halfway through and you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m going to die.

Carrie: A lot of work and I appreciate the transparency there. That’s good.

Becca: Yeah. Like everybody gets a wall at some point because it just works and it’s going a lot of times, it’s going counter-culturally and it’s going against what, how you lived previously. So it’s not only physical work, but it’s also mental, emotional, spiritual work because you’re literally shifting your worldview and your lifestyle.

So knowing why you’re doing it in the first place is going to help you get motivated to continue that process and then live it out, continue living it out. Because that’s the thing like decluttering is a one and done process. Like you get rid of stuff and you’re like, you’re done, but like you’re not done right.

It’s a constant journey that’s why I always call it the Christian minimalism journey because you’re constantly figuring out what adds value to your life and what matters most and how you can focus on that. Because a bachelor bachelorette is going to live out the minimalist lifestyle differently than someone who’s married and has three kids like that and that’s normal. So you have to kind of shift depending on your context. 

Carrie: I think that’s great. Hard for people with children who may receive a lot of gifts from grandparents. He has an uncle and next thing, birthday parties, Christmas, next thing they know, there’s just piles of stuff everywhere and kids typically do not want to get on the minimalism board.

So it’s like, if you can ward some of that off ahead of time, it’s probably helpful in encouraging relatives to buy experiences instead of things. Different opportunities for that time to spend time together.

Becca: Definitely and the earlier you can start the better, but it’s never too late with kids. Joshua Becker actually has a great book called clutter-free with kids kind of outlines a lot of this or younger to older kids, which I think is great. So I think there are ways that younger children and teenagers do actually want a more simple lifestyle. But you just are so used to the consumer culture around them, that it may be a little bit of a shift for them, just like it is for us. Right but I think it’s definitely something that can be incorporated with kids. 

Carrie: For you, what does being a minimalist look like on a practical day-to-day level?  

Becca: Yeah, an intentional living which sounds kind of cliche, but I’m literally aware of how I’m making decisions around consumption and spending and money habits and ways. I use my time and energy and resources. Like I’m just very much aware of how I do that and how I make decisions around that. How I make those decisions has completely shifted since becoming a minimalist. It’s not that I don’t spend money and I don’t own things. I think some people hear you’re minimalist and it’s like, they picture this like room with one chair and that’s it, you know?

Carrie: Right. No pictures on the wall. 

Becca: Right? Like obviously I own stuff. I have pictures on the wall. I’m currently packing to move. So I own things, but I own less things because I’m much more intentional with what I bring into my life and that includes all things. That includes things that include people that include time commitments. Media usage, I’m just very intentional with how I use all of that. And so for me, it’s a good productive day if I’ve been intentional and I made some time for rest and renewal as well. 

Carrie: That’s good. Did you use to have a lot busier schedule and just kind of say yes to all the opportunities and pile them on?

Becca: Yeah, 100%. Like I was like, I was one of those I’ll rest when I’m dead type people and it was not good for me. I mean, I felt awful all the time. I was exhausted. I felt burnt out. I just wanted to disappear on a desert island and that’s not normal. We shouldn’t feel like that. 

Carrie: Right, so much goodness there in terms of rest and Jesus getting away to reflect, spend time with God and really, if you look at the life of Jesus, He was very intentional about how He spent His time, who He spent His time with. I always find it interesting that in one of the early chapters of Mark, where people were coming to be healed and they were trying to get to Jesus and Jesus, looked up and left and we look at that and we’re like, that doesn’t seem right.

But it was just, He couldn’t do everything in his humanity. Like He couldn’t meet with every single person, he would have been there for years and years just doing that. He could have set up a little, but, and just had people come to Him. But that wasn’t the mission. So you had to get out and be on the move and I look at that and I think, a lot of times we try to help everybody with everything and we think that that’s like a Christian thing. 

Oh, well, I’ve got to do all these good things for other people. But the reality is we need to be intentional to like our calling and what God has asked us to do globally as Christians, but also specifically. And if we miss that, because we’re looking at every single opportunity to help people, then we’re missing the boat there.

Becca: I think especially like churchgoing folks tend to be like over overextended. I don’t know why that’s a thing in Christian culture, but it totally is and that’s not even what Jesus said when God created the world. God gave us the Sabbath as a gift to re-ask and connect with God and our loved ones. And like, so we’re not even created to keep going 24/7 all the time. Like we’re not made to do that and so if we do that, we’re not, it’s not going to go well for us. 

I learned that the hard way and especially with my chronic illness, that is not even doable for me. So making sure that there’s built-in time for rest and renewal, even when it’s a busy time, obviously we go through spurts where it’s busier than others. And so making sure that you build in that time, so you’re not getting burnt out.

Carrie: Sure. So we talked a little bit about some small steps that people can take to get started and you talked about I think before getting rid of stuff, like finding your why, why do you want to live more simply or more minimalistic. Looking at that, maybe what domains need to change? Is it about the stuff? Is it about how I’m spending my time? Am I overextended financially? And then what are maybe some other small steps that you feel like people can take if they’re just really beginning this journey? 

Becca: Yeah. I always encourage people to start small. I think it can be very overwhelming. Like if the problem is stuff and you’re looking at a whole house filled with stuff, obviously, you’re never going to get started if you’re like, oh my gosh, I have a whole house full of stuff. I can get this big paralysis by looking at all the things you need to do. So for us, it was stuff for us. We started literally 10 to 15 minutes a day and it was easy and it was quick and you could see results really quickly and it helped motivate us to continue more because you can see tangible results.

And then when we had more time on our hands, like a Saturday, we like tackled that storage unit. I talked about it before it took many Saturdays, but finding ways to set aside time to do it and even if it’s just 5, 10 minutes a day, just start. Like, if it’s your social media usage, for example, I’ve had some people start there and being like, okay, I’m going to let myself scroll through social media for a half-hour tonight, and then I’m done.

And just being more intentional with that, because we’ve all been there over scrolling through, and it’s been like an hour and you’re like, where did that hour ago? Then you’ve lost an hour. You’re never getting that hour back and it’s probably not the best use of time. It might be if you found some cool stuff, but it’s still an hour out of your life. Just find ways to be intentional and start small. 

Carrie: Yes, that’s good. So we were talking about when I intro the episode that oftentimes having a lot of stuff can lead to anxiety. Have you seen in terms of other people that you’ve interacted with or yourself personally, like a reduction in anxiety from reducing the amount of stuff or living more intentionally?

Becca: Oh, definitely. Yeah. I have a lot of folks who either have anxiety disorders that are diagnosed or feel anxious regularly. And once they cleared their space, whether that be physical, mental, emotional, social, they find that they have breathing space basically and the anxiety has lessened a little bit. Obviously, if you’re diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, it takes a lot more than that, but it can at least help the process of finding ways to handle that anxiety. 

I know that for me, I feel a lot less anxious when I don’t have as much stuff or clutter in my brain or around me. They’ve done some studies around this to show that when there are less clutter people feel less anxious, less stressed. And so finding ways to make that space for yourself is really important. 

Carrie: I find that true in my office, now I have a home office. And if it’s got a lot of paperwork stacked up or things that I’ve put to the side and haven’t dealt with, I just noticed that I feel more cramped in there, less free. I find myself trying to work in other areas of the house instead of being in the office, which is where I need to be in. So I can definitely attest to that. That’s true for me. And obviously, I think what we’re talking about here as well. We’re not necessarily diving into hoarding or anything of that nature, which is something that’s more extreme.

We’re just talking about the normal day-to-day American westernized way of living, unfortunately, that we often so easily, because it’s all around us in our culture. We just kind of fall into it and we don’t even realize how it’s affecting us until we get to a certain point 

Becca: And actually the typical American house on average has 300,000 things.

Carrie: Wow. Isn’t that a lot of things?

Becca: It’s insane. 

Carrie: Wow. I did not know that. I know for me, I’ve gone through different seasons and periods of my life where I had foster children and I had this kid stuff around. And then you wouldn’t know what ages of children you’re going to get. So I had these different toys and clothes in the attic. Then I went through a divorce and then I got remarried. My husband moved in. It’s interesting. Now we’re in kind of a similar season where we’re trying to decide what’s most important and I’m trying to be sensitive to his stuff and not just say like, ah, we don’t really need that.

So I’m curious for you, maybe you could talk a little bit about relationally in terms of working with this with your husband. Like how have you two been able to come together to achieve the common goal? Did you have certain criteria for things as you were looking through them? 

Becca: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I always tell people, it’s funny, you bring that up because I always tell people do not minimize another person you’re living with stuff because it doesn’t end well, never ends well, let them deal with their own stuff.

So I always encourage people and this is something that we did is we dealt with our own stuff because obviously, we were dealing with stuff first and our own time commitments. Obviously, time commitments when we have them together. We have to have those conversations. If it’s stuff that we both use, obviously we talked through it and see if it adds value to our lives and if we want to keep it in our lives. 

But keeping communication open is really key and that’s for anyone you’re living with. Right? So like it could be any family member. It could be a roommate, especially if I’ve had friends who started the minimalist lifestyle and live with. And their roommates are not minimalist, right. Finding ways like, okay, well, my own space is going to be my own space, but then also like trying to find ways to live in this way in communal spaces where other folks may not be living the same lifestyle. So just finding ways to do that and what we’ve actually seen is that a lot of times when people start living more minimally, other people see the benefits and then they start doing it after the fact.

So even if the folks you’re living with aren’t on board right away, they may be doing it later. So just do what you’re doing and they may see for themselves that it’s worth it. 

Carrie: That’s good. We had a yard sale recently from just combining two households of two adults. And obviously, we couldn’t keep everything and we redecorated the house. I got let go of my office and just have my home office. So that was definitely a big downside and it was interesting to see my husband go through this process. Because I think he struggles a little bit more maybe than I do with getting rid of things. And he said, I really like such and such picture, but it just doesn’t fit with the decor of our house anymore.

Or I really enjoyed that and I think maybe somebody else will enjoy that as well. So there are, there’s something about being able to let things go and bless other people maybe that can use it more than you can. 

Becca: Yeah, that was a big thing for us. So we have a son who died and we moved a couple of times with all the baby stuff because we knew we were planning on adopting at some point probably. But we didn’t know when and so we were just holding on to all this. And we realized after a few years of that when it was sitting in a storage unit that I talked about like there are families that could use this stuff right now, and we’re just collecting dust over here. 

And so we don’t eat it at all and know full well that when we do adopt and we’ve started the adoption process now that we would most likely have to get it again. But we knew that was going to be a few years down the road and that we could save up to do that. So we made sure that helped us let go of it because we knew that there were families that would be using it right now and getting used out of it, as opposed to us holding onto it for years and years and years for when we’re going to use it again.

Carrie: Yes. That was something that I had to help evaluate for myself after, the foster kids left and everything. And I said, well, I have to have my space according to the life I’m living right now, not the future life I hope to have. And I don’t want my house to be full of stuff that’s just representative of the past life that I’ve lived. It has to have this balance of just being present and being in the moment. And what does this fit in with the life I’m living right now was a question that I asked myself a lot and it helped me determine which stuff needed to stay and which you could go. 

Becca: That’s fantastic that you did that naturally because most of the time we hold on to it either because it made sense in the past or because we think it might make sense in the future. And like in reality, most of those in future things don’t actually happen in the past. It doesn’t, it’s not serving us now. So being like, okay, is this serving me now? Is this adding value to my life right now? And if it’s not, if it’s asked for the future, it’s okay to get rid of it.

Carrie: Right. I might need this one-day mindset. 

Becca: Yeah. And like that just in case thing, like never ends up happening like 99% of the time. Right. 

Carrie: Right. So as we’re getting towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask every guest to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Becca: Yeah. So, I went on a three-week retreat to Costa Rica, which was not a Christian retreat. It was an alternative wellness retreat, which was a whole new experience for me. I had not really dealt with the grief around not really being able to have biological children. So my chronic illness, I have mast cell activation syndrome. It’s genetics. So it’s past, it’s 50 50 shot. that’ll get passed on if I were to have a biologic and try to have another biological child again, and it’s more severe every time it’s passed on. 

So I could in all consciousness, like give birth to a child that would be disabled. So I don’t feel comfortable doing that personally. So we had felt called my husband and I to adopt at some point. Anyway, it’s just, we’re just adopting up. But I didn’t feel, I wasn’t ready to let go of the fact that I wasn’t going to have biological children, and in Christian circles, there’s a lot of weird baggage around, women and childbirth and weird stuff around that had to work through. 

And I just kind of stuffed it down and not dealt with it. And so when this opportunity arose to go on this retreat, I said, okay and I did it. And I came out of it and I was ready to adopt, like I had worked through all that stuff, which was really cool.

You can actually watch this retreat and my experience, it was filmed. It’s called Last Resort. It was filmed. It was originally aired on PBS network, so you can watch it on demand there, but now it’s also streaming on HBO max. If anyone is interested in watching that, but that gave me so much more hope because I just wasn’t ready to take the next step to adopt.

And now, we already started the process. We’re really excited. We did all the educational classes and we just really excited to see what child God wants us to parent. 

Carrie: That’s great. We have to be able to allow God to fully close one door so that we can be ready to receive and open that next door. I’m glad that you were able to just receive from God on that and be able to fully process through those emotions. I’m sure we’re pretty. 

Becca: Yeah. And like it was interesting for me because I think there’s this mentality sometimes in Christian circles that like something needs to be Christian in order for God to work through it. And in reality, like God can work through, like God’s God. And so like, I, even though the retreat I went to wasn’t necessarily Christian and like it had indigenous cultural practices and it like, God worked through that so that I could then be ready to adopt. So I think finding ways to listen for God in places that you wouldn’t necessarily expect.

Carrie: Yeah. Yes. That’s a good point to bring up. I’m glad that you talked about that because God works in all kinds of different ways through different people and even people that don’t know him. Well, thank you for giving us the gift of your time today and I’ve really enjoyed having this conversation and I know it’s going to be a positive impact on so many of our listeners. 

Becca: Great. Well, thanks so much for having me and I hope everyone is able to live a little bit more simply.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production By The Well Counseling in Tennessee and our original music is by Brandon. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Today on the show, I’m privileged to be interviewing Rich Lewis, a speaker, coach and author.  Rich has been practicing centering prayer since 2013 as a way to relate and pray to God. He even wrote a book about it. 

  • What is centering prayer and how do we do it?
  • What are the purposes and benefits of centering prayer?
  • What are the challenges in practicing centering prayer? 
  • Basic steps of centering prayer
  • Rich Lewis’ Book:  Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

Resources and Links:

Rich Lewis
Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

More Podcast Episodes

Is Mindfulness for Christians?

Transcript of Episode 48

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 48. This is your host, Carrie Bock. On our show, what we do is focus on reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. In one of our very early episodes, we talked about prayer. We’ve also talked on the show about mindfulness in the past. Both of those were great episodes. I encourage you to go back and listen if you haven’t heard those. 

And today we’re talking with author and speaker Rich Lewis. A meditative practice called centering prayer. So I’m really interested in learning more about this and how it might be beneficial for people with anxiety.

Carrie: So thanks for coming in and talking with us Rich. I really appreciate it.

Rich: Sure. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. 

Carrie: So how did you get connected with and interested in centering prayer? 

Rich: I stumbled into it in late 2013 in a book. So prior to late 2013, I’d had read books by Carl McColman and he talked a lot about silence and how powerful and transforming it was. But I don’t remember him talking about a practice to do in this silence. So at that point, I just sit in silence but do not really have a practice and this was probably in 2012 and 2013. Then I was simply browsing Amazon looking for a book to read and I came across Amos Smith’s book, Healing the Divide: Recovering Christianity’s mystic roots.

In his book, he talked about a practice called centering prayer that he had been doing, I think for about 15 years at that point. So that immediately intrigued me because I was looking for something to do in this silence, which may sound funny, but I didn’t know what I was supposed to do in silence.

So I began investigating centering prayer and obviously, his book talked about it. Then I began reading other books on centering prayer. I started practicing centering kind of dabbling in it in late 2013 and then decided to, I’ll call it, jump into centering prayer, swimming, swimming pool on June 1st, 2014 and practice it more regularly on a daily basis.

So that’s how it happened. I’ve been attracted to silence and then I came across a practice that you can do in the silence in late 2013 and started exploring it. It resonated with me and I’ve been doing it since June of 2014. 

Carrie: I know silence can be intimidating for some people is, especially in the beginning. Maybe they feel uncomfortable with it. I’m curious for you when you started out was surges, like this internal craving in your spirit for more silence. Just a sense of like, life is so busy, so noisy, so much going on, like you needed that space. 

Rich: It just intrigued me. I guess I was looking for a new way to relate to God and a new way to pray to God. I guess I was all, I always considered myself an introvert, so I didn’t mind being alone at times. I go into crowds and have friends, but I don’t mind being alone or taking a walk alone or going in nature or going on a walker or a bike ride by myself. Since I had read silence was powerful. I thought it was the way to sit with myself and another neat way to just sit with God, rather than talk out loud to God. So it kind of intrigued me. 

Carrie: Okay. What is centering prayer exactly? How do you describe it to other people? 

Rich: Centering prayer has been around since what was created in the early 1970s by three Trappist monks. So, three Catholic priests saw a transcendental meditation going on and they wanted something for the Christian community. So they created centering prayer and the method itself actually was found by Fr. William Manager. One of the three Trappist monks kind of found the method of centering prayer in an old book called the Cloud of Unknowing.

And then the three of them, the two other priests, including himself sort of refined to practice and started teaching it to priests, clergy, and rolling it out to the public. So it’s been around, I guess, at this point for about 50 years. It’s considered meditation and a relationship with God and it’s silent wordless prayer.

I’ll describe how you do it. The guidelines are you sit comfortably with your eyes closed and then to begin your silent sit, you introduce what’s called a sacred word interiorly, and it really means you’re consenting to the presence and actions of God within. The word usually is anywhere from one to three syllables and it could be anything – love, ocean, God, Jesus, some type of short syllable word. Whenever you begin engaging your thoughts as you’re sitting there. What I mean by that is whenever you begin thinking about what you did before your sets or thinking about what you’re going to do when you get up from your sets, you realize that you’re beginning to engage your thoughts and plan and plot and that’s you’re supposed to let go of them.

So you’ve then re-introduced the sacred word. Let go of these engaged thoughts to bring you back to the present moment. Then you let go of the sacred word itself as well And you do that during the duration of the time that you’ve decided to sit, whether it’s five minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, you kind of repeat that.

It’s not a mantra. So there are mantra-based practices. Centering in this with centering prayers just used when it is needed. The last thing I’ll say about the sacred word is that it doesn’t have to be a word. Like if you’re an auditory person, it may work well. I started with a word and then I discovered I’m really more of a visual person. So I used an image and I would kind of picture the image and I wouldn’t like to paint it out and draw it out. But I would just think of that picture and think of that image to bring myself back. So if you’re a visual person, If you’re more of a physical person, you can use your breath. And then lastly, some people want to keep their eyes open, or they’re just afraid they’ll fall asleep.

So they keep their eyes open and stare at a spot four or five feet in the distance somewhere and kind of focus on that during this sit. So that’s a little bit about what is centering prayer. It is meditation, then a relationship with God where you are consenting to the presence and actions of God within and how long it’s been around and how you do it.

Carrie: Okay. So when people are selecting a sacred word or picture of that nature that they can use and kind of go back to, to redirect themselves to the practice, do they usually use the same one each time, or does it depend on the day? 

Rich: That’s a good point. So you should use the same word or visual image during the sit. Don’t change it because then you’ll spend more time in what’s my next sacred method instead of really sitting with God. So use the same method during these sets. Then if you discover, you want to switch a word, or I think I want to switch to an image, do that on your next sit. That is what we recommend and then kind of find the method that works best for you and then stick with it. So, as I said, I started with a word and then I switched to an image and I’ve been using the same image for years at this point. 

Carrie: What are some challenges that people run into when they start this practice? 

Rich: I guess the first thing they say is, they think maybe they’re failing at it because they have racing thoughts and they’re using their method numerous times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So they may think that they’re failing because they’ve used their sacred method a hundred times or 500 times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So that’s kind of one thing people say, and then another thing, some people will, they’ll say, I don’t have time for this.

I challenged them to do this sit anyhow. So for example, I would challenge people, make it. The first thing you do is you begin your day and then get up and, and start your day. Then I encourage people to add a second sit and I think that’s where some people will say, well, I don’t have time, I’m too busy and I’m not arguing. But I’ll say it has a way of giving you back time from my experience. Now I stop what I’m doing and do a second sit right before lunch, no matter how busy I am. Then when I look back at the day, I discovered that I was very productive and I got done what I needed to get done.

And in fact, I really needed this sit because the benefit of the sit is that you’re bringing this let-go posture that you do in centering prayer into your everyday life. You’re letting go of the tasks that you don’t need to do and focusing on the things that you need to do. So has a way of giving you back time, but you don’t know that until you actually try it. So that’s another thing that people will say, I don’t have time to do it. And I’ll say, I think actually it has a way of giving you back time if you trust the process and trust your sits. 

Carrie: I imagine that if you feel calmer after this practice or more at peace, and maybe your mind is more clear to prioritize like you were saying of what’s the most important thing that I actually need to get done today and what is really inconsequential or it can wait till tomorrow.

Rich: Right. That’s exactly what happens in the gesture or the posture of letting go and opening to the moment, opening to God, opening to life comes with you outside of your sit. You take that same gesture or posture with you, as you get on with your day. I have found it calms me down, slows me down and helps me focus on what I need to do, and lets go of what doesn’t have to happen today.

Carrie: I imagine that you have different experiences on different days with this, but what are some of the experiences or the takeaways that you’ve received from these moments of centering prayer? 

Rich: So well during them, it’s not your even special life go of whatever your experience is. So if you’re experiencing joy and peace, that’s wonderful. But you are really supposed to let go of that. Come back to your sacred method and just continuously open to the presence and actions of God within. Obviously, you may experience painful thoughts because a lot of times things can come up.

Our bodies and I guess our minds hold a lot of repressed thoughts. Some of them we don’t even know we have, and they start coming up. When we do sit, other times it forces us to come to terms with some of our things and they come up. So we are kind of let go of them and come back to the present moment with our sacred word. It’s more so outside of centering prayer is where you notice the benefits of your practice. During the practice, our job is just to show up and let go of us and all of our thoughts, all of our emotions, and be open to the presence and actions of God.

I think of it as reverse prayer. God is praying for me, what I need, and that can be many things. It could be inner peace, calm, confidence, wisdom for tasks, nudges to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things. So all of this is happening during my sit, and I’m noticing it’s outside of my sit where I’m noticing I feel more confident or I feel more energized or I seem to have wisdom for a task that earlier I didn’t know how to do or I feel like I’m being nudged to try and do something new. That scares me a little bit, but I know it’s going to help me grow. So it’s outside of your practices where you notice kind of the fruits of the practice from God, quite frankly.

Carrie: So it’s an opportunity for the holy spirit to minister to your spirit.

Rich: Right. I mean, that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re sitting with God and letting God act in you and just resting in the rest of God and trusting that God knows exactly what you need for even when you get up from your set.

Carrie: I really like that because there are times where we may feel lost spiritually and we don’t even know what to pray or what to ask God for. But just like you’re saying, God knows exactly what we need, even before we ask that’s scriptural. So if we take that opportunity to commune with God and say, okay, I’m here and I know that God is here, then things can happen that are probably even outside of our awareness.

Rich: Right and that encourages people. By all means, don’t give up your other prayer forms and I pray other ways as well. Just add a silent meditation, prayer like this, and see how it can enrich and complement your other prayer forms and enrich your prayer life. If you think about it, often we might sit with a friend or someone special or spouse and you don’t always need to be talking. You’re just together taking a walk or together sitting and we’re together watching a movie. It’s kind of the same thing you’re sitting with God and you don’t always have to have words with God. You just sit with God and it’s like sitting with a friend, a special friend’s words aren’t always needed.

Carrie: I like that and there’s the truth to that. Tell us about when people are first getting started. Is there a length that you recommend that they start with?

Rich: Sure. The temple of outreach is the main center and prayer organization that was created in 1984. They suggest two sits or get yourself up to two sits of 20 minutes. But obviously, that could be rather difficult for people and so I suggest taking baby steps. The first thing you do is you get up in the morning before you do anything. And then two, make it five minutes and then begin your day, and then slowly work your way yourself up from 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 minutes.

I then encourage people to do the same thing with the second sit and take a look at your life. Where does the sit best belong? Is it before lunch? Is it before dinner? Is it after dinner? Is it later in the evening? Only you can know when it makes the most sense for you and then take the same approach with that sit if you have to start with five minutes and work your way up to 20 minutes.

The last thing I’ll say is they suggest 20 minutes because sometimes they can take you that long, just as still you’re in the inner voice is going on in your head. But in my opinion, any silence is better than nothing. So there are times where my first sit is 20 minutes and then my one before lunch is 7 minutes or 10 minutes. I think it’s more important to take the time for silence because any silence is better than no silence in my opinion. 

Carrie: Okay. So what are some of the other benefits that you’ve seen in your life as you’ve been on this journey of centering prayer? 

Rich: When I think about myself before centering prayer, then after centering prayer, even though, obviously right now into the present moment, it definitely has changed me. I enjoyed life then, but I think I’m more excited about life simply because I think I’m more present in the present moment and enjoying the present moment, whatever that is. So a practice such as centering prayer helps you kind of let go and be present, whether it’s for the task you’re doing or enjoying or listening to the person in front of you, who’s talking or taking a walk and enjoying the scenery.

It’s helped me have a bigger excitement for life and to be more present for life and more present for people. It definitely gives me wisdom for tasks. I’ll have things just pop into my head during the day that I couldn’t figure out earlier. Some of them are, as one example what my daughter works at Wawa and it was a Saturday and I’m driving home after picking her up and a solution popped into my head on SA I wasn’t even thinking about it. The solution to a problem at work popped into my head. So I tried it quickly when I get home. I didn’t plan on working on Saturday, but I quickly tried it and it worked. So I’ve seemed to notice sometimes solutions to things start popping into my head that I was struggling with. I attribute it to my centering prayer practice and kind of clearing the clutter.

So that kind of stuff. I think I’m a much more confident person and I’m definitely more willing to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things, which is really what I’ve been doing since I’ve been practicing, centering prayer. I’ve created my website and I get out and teach people. I work with people one-on-one and I’ve written a book and I get out and talk to small groups or even one-on-one about the book. These are the things that I probably don’t think I would have done previously. I think they would’ve made me nervous just the idea of doing all those things would have made me very nervous. I never would even never have tried them, but centering prayer has given me a boost of confidence or God has given me a boost of confidence just to trust me and together we continue to move forward. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think that’s great and that’s so much has changed for you. We willl certainly put the links into the show notes regarding this, but I know that you wrote a book on centering prayer. Tell us a little bit about that. If people are interested, in reading more and getting their practice.

Rich: The book’s called Sitting with God: A Journey To Your True Self Through Centering Prayer and it’s hard to believe that next month it’ll be out one year. What caused me to write the book was, I had mentioned earlier that Amos Smith, I discovered centering prayer in his book that I read in late 2013. Then I began kind of an email dialogue with Amos via his website and then we became friends along the way.

I began initially working with him off of his site. He’s the one that actually challenged me to write a book. He saw that I had a big interest in centering prayer and he thought his book was more academic and that I might be able to approach it a little bit more laid back than his book did. He actually challenged me to write a book. So at the time, I thought he was crazy because I had never really written anything long, longer than six, seven pages in college. He challenged me to think about what is centering prayer and what does it mean to you and just write single sentences.

So I did that and then I came back to him with about, I remember 15 or so sentences and then in his mind he said, there’s your chapters, go write your book. I didn’t think it was as simple as that. So I picked one of them and then I took a couple of weeks to write that chapter, sent it to him and I just wanted to get his reaction. To my surprise, he thought it was fresh, neat and had something interesting to say. So at that point, it dawned to me that, well, maybe I really can do this. So I kind of checked in with my wife and I said, how do you feel about me taking time to write a book? And she said, do it. So I decided to write the book.

I didn’t want to take time away from my family so this is pre-COVID-19. The book actually got written mostly on Saturdays. Believe it or not. Saturday mornings in Starbucks, I would get up at about 5:30 in the morning, put on a baseball cap, grab my laptop, go to the local Starbucks, get a cup of coffee, open the laptop and that’s really where the book got written over. Probably two and a half years or so, because then the next step after that was really kind of editing the book and then approaching publishers to see who would want to publish it.

So that’s really how the book happened. It happened because Amos challenged me to, and I’m really glad he did because those Saturday mornings were neat spiritual exercises for me. Other than the one chapter I did, which talks about Jesus and what did the scholars say we know what is true about Him, where I had to do some research, listen to some of the scholars, and read some of them taking notes down. I then decided from my notes and what am I going to put in that chapter.  In the other chapters, I knew basically what I wanted to write about, and I just needed to let the words naturally flow from my heart, to my fingertips, and onto the laptop, so to speak. So it was a neat spiritual exercise and that’s how the book got done. 

Carrie: Okay. So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests this question. What is a story of hope? Like a time where you received hope from God or another person? 

Rich: So this is going back to about 1997. I’ve been married for five years at that point and my wife and I, joked around about this, that we’re on the five-year plan. We wanted to be married without kids for five years, but then after five years, we wanted to have a family and we weren’t able to, it wasn’t working the natural way. So we decided we needed to explore other ways to have children.

We did a lot of praying to God and the pastor of our church actually knew somebody within the church that was also adopting and they were adopting from Russia. So we were put in contact actually with that agency. Normally, it takes a lot longer, but in our case, it only took us about six months from contacting the agency, doing all the stuff you needed to do, and then flying over, to pick up your child.

It actually took six months and in six months of beginning contacting them, we adopted our first son, Benjamin Lewis. We actually saw him on his first birthday. So we adopted him the day after his birthday because I remember celebrating his first birthday in the adoption where he was living and then we actually legally adopted him. I believe it was the next day that was something where it was a lot of hope and praying about we wanted to have a family and God was telling us that I want you to adopt a child. Obviously, we adopted Ben, and then we went back to Russia in 2002 and adopted Gabriela.

So Ben is now going on 25 and Gabriela, we adopted her in 2002, she’s now 20. Then they say this happens, you’re just relaxed or whatever. We were able to have children and Joshua came along and that we have a natural Joshua or biological son, but all three of them are our children and they all love each other and we don’t consider them biological versus adopted. They’re just our three kids. Josh was 13. So we have a 13-year old, a 20-year-old, and a 24-year-old. That’s what God wanted us to do. God wanted the first two. He wanted us to help two children that needed a home and we did, and then he wanted us to obviously have Joshua. So we did. 

Carrie: So you are triply blessed with children.

Rich: It was a neat experience. I think when all said done, I think I was in Russia five times, never expected that I would be visiting Russia five times for with this adoption process. But now, it was a wonderful experience and we’re blessed with three great,  still call them kids, even though the two of them are not quite kids anymore. Three great kids. 

Carrie: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that story. That’s a good one. Well, I appreciate you educating me and our listeners on centering prayer. This definitely sounds like something I want to add to my practice even if it’s just in a small way and maybe it’ll grow and build from there. I hope that some of our listeners try this out as well. So thanks for coming and sharing with us. 

Rich: Thanks for having me, and hopefully this was helpful for your community. So thank you very much. 

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

47. Why Did God Allow Me to go Through That? with Jennifer Harshman

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 47. Why Did God Allow Me to go Through That? with Jennifer Harshman

Today, I am privileged to be interviewing Jennifer Harshman, an author and owner of a publishing agency.  Jennifer shares with us her personal story of overcoming trauma, how she wrestled with God and how those awful experiences formed her character. 

  • Jennifer’s childhood
  • Hating God for not putting a stop to it
  • Moving away and cutting ties with family members
  • Staying connected with God in the midst of trauma.
  • How Jennifer dealt with her traumatic experience.
  • How God used her story in a positive light. 
  • Jennifer’s Book: Better Days Journal: For anxiety and depression, ADHD and autism

Related links and resources:

Harshman Services
Better Days Journal: For anxiety and depression, ADHD and autism

Keep an eye out for some exciting opportunities that I’ll be launching this month!

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More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 47

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 47. So as many of you know, I often work with clients who have experienced a wide variety of traumatic experiences. Often, these traumatic experiences are the layers that are underneath their anxiety and OCD. I thought it would be great to do a show on why does God allow certain things to happen in our life.

And so today we have a personal story of overcoming trauma and working through those spiritual wrestlings of why God allowed her to go through certain things and how He allowed that and used it for good in her life. So today I’m speaking with Jennifer Harshman who owns a small writing and publishing service agency. She helps a wide variety of authors through the publishing process, which I’m sure is quite a process from what I’ve heard from authors. 

Carrie: Jennifer, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show and tell your story. 

Jennifer: Thank you for having me, Carrie. 

Carrie: So tell us a little bit about why you wanted to come on and share your story on the podcast.

Jennifer: I feel a lot of people who struggle and grapple with the question about how can a good and holy God allow such terrible things to happen in the world. I have been through what I would say is more than my fair share of that terrible stuff and so I think that I have a good handle on how to make some good use out of those things and how the whole experience can be transformative and how it can be a good thing, looking back.

Carrie: Okay. Tell us what was your childhood like.

Jennifer: They can’t put the content into movies because it’s that bad. I was severely abused in every way that you can imagine. From the time I was born to the time I escaped my home just after I had turned 18, if you can think of it, that happened and probably more. So I don’t know how much you want to get into that, because I know that hearing about some things can be very triggering to people.

Carrie: Right. Sure. So I imagine that it’s so double whammy when you’re in that type of environment, because not only are you having awful things happen to you. You’re also not having anyone provide any kind of emotional support or encouragement or needs being met, kind of those trauma wounds and also the attachment wounds.

Jennifer: Well, there was one place where I felt like I could be successful and that I had at least some measure of protection and safety. So that’s where I excelled. 

Carrie: Did anyone suspect what was going on at home? 

Jennifer: Everyone knew because I was one of those people who broke the rule of “don’t tell anyone”, and a lot of narcissistic family systems and in a lot of abuse cases, there’s this intense fear of calling people. Usually, the abuser is the one who instills that fear in us because they say, “if you tell this, bad things will happen”. I didn’t care. It was so bad. I wanted it to stop no matter what. So everyone knew, but my family members were well connected enough that every time it went to court, it was instantly thrown out.

Carrie: Wow. So major things were covered up and excused. Wow. Was that hard for you to get out of? How did you get out and just be on your own at 18? 

Jennifer: I had some skills and I got a job and worked multiple jobs and I just scratched and clawed and finally found people that I could relate to and depend on and I started to build my own family. 

Carrie: Yes. I’ve had many clients who have had to do that because unfortunately, the situations were so severe. They had to cut all ties with their family. That doesn’t happen in all cases, but in some of the more severe abuse cases where people aren’t willing to acknowledge their behavior, then sometimes that’s the only option that people have in order to stay safe.

And to heat all from everything that’s happened in that process, how did you learn about God or become a Christian? 

Jennifer: Well, I hadn’t been raised in the church, but going through all of those things that I went through. I was praying and I was crying out to God constantly. Give me a way out of this, make these people stop, make the police actually do something and it seemed like He just didn’t and just didn’t. It got to the point where I attempted suicide multiple times because I just wanted it to stop and I wanted to hate God. I was so angry with Him for not putting a stop to it. When we’re young and even when we’re older, maybe we are one person with one perspective and we’re from a certain point of view. We can’t see everything that God can see.

And so here I was in my little bubble, seeing only the things that I could see, and I had no idea how any of that could be something good. It seemed awful. How could this possibly be for my good? And I saw scripture verse, “All things work together for good, for those who are, who love God and are called according to His purpose.” And I was like, well, I love God. I think I’m called according to His purpose. Why isn’t He doing something? How can this be good? 

Well, now years and years later, that’s very different and I can see all of the good that can come from things like this, and all I can see is a lot of the good that has come from it. We can’t see everything. There are ripples that we will never know about. I’ve been on a lot of podcast interviews. I don’t know who all listens. I don’t know how it may affect them or help them and I may never know that and that’s okay. 

Carrie: Sure. Absolutely. So there was this sense where you talked about, like, I wanted to hate God. What kept you from hating God? Obviously, you got to a very, very dark place, but there was a part of you that was so connected to Him.

Jennifer: Yes and I don’t know that it was necessarily something in me. I think that’s one of those instances where we say, but for the grace of God, like He kept that connection like I wanted to. I think it’s kind of like a kid, you get mad at mom. You might say, I hate you, but you still have that feeling of connection and that even under all of that mess, your mom still loved you. I think that’s what it was. It was just that constant and then my spiritual health gradually improved from that low point.

Carrie: What was that process like of getting help for dealing with these traumatic experiences? Like did you go to therapy? Did you read self-help books? 

Jennifer: Yes, I did all of that and I also went to college to get a degree in psychology to help me figure out all the mess in my family system. And how can people do those kinds of things and figure out how to heal myself with the help of therapists with the help of books. It was a long road. I don’t want anyone to think that “Oh gosh, okay, you can go through all this horrible stuff, and in a month, snap your fingers and everything’s okay.” It tends to take a long time and I still have what I call baggage. I still have some issues that I’m working on with my current family, my husband and my kids, and people that I have chosen to be kind of like adopted sisters and adopted brothers to me.

Carrie: I think that’s a good point to make because sometimes people say, okay, well, I walked away from that experience. It’s not going on anymore. And so, therefore, it shouldn’t affect me, but those psychological scars most often impact relationships as where those things tend to show up. So it takes time to work through those things.

We all have some level of baggage that we’re working through in our relationship life. If we have people that are close to us, if we’ve walled people off, it’s probably not as affecting us as much, which can happen too. But I think that that’s huge to make that point that you do have to work through those residual effects of trauma.

What was the process like reconciling, okay? I know these horrible experiences happened to me and maybe even asking God, why did you allow such evil to pervade my life for a long time and not rescue me from it? Because you could have, you could have just jumped in or sent somebody that really believed and wanted to do something about it.

I could have been in a just court system, whatever the case was, God could have intervened and He chose not to, like it that’s a hard thing for us to sit with. 

Jennifer: It is. I think for my case, anyway. The big thing was scripture kept coming to mind and other people would point out some things. Now, sometimes people try to be helpful and they give you these pat answers and it’s not helpful. But I had some people who were helpful in things that they said. That scripture that I mentioned kept coming back to mind and I kept saying, okay, I believe that scripture is true. I just have to figure out how it’s true. So I took it as my job to figure out how those things could be good for me or good for the kingdom as a whole. Once I had made that decision that I was going to look for ways that this could be a good thing.

I started to see those things. I was able to spot a family in a fast food restaurant and know that the father was sexually molesting the daughter. I was able to put a stop to it by calling the local police. I worked in a daycare where I was able to spot some abuse taking place and put a stop to that.

So instances like that, where when you have lived it. You know what when you see it. You know what to look for and being able to take action and help someone else. Now, if I had never lived through that, would I have been able to help any of those people? Probably not. So once I took on that attitude and said, it’s my job to find out how these things are good for me or could be good for the kingdom, then it just changed everything.

Carrie: Wow. Were you able to, as you process some of the trauma, go back and find some of the good pieces of your childhood, even if they were small? Like those positive interactions with teachers and things like that? 

Jennifer: Yes. That was another thing too, at the time. I didn’t really notice because of all the big, bad. But looking back in hindsight in 2020, I was able to spot that there were even stranger who would say something in the grocery store or on the street while I was waiting for the bus, just little things that at the time I would kind of like raise an eyebrow, scratch my head, like what? But it was a seed planted or it was the encouragement that I needed to get through that day or that week and there were so many of them. 

That’s what makes it obvious to me that God was there and He was intervening. But He chose not to stop what I wanted him to stop because it formed my character. It turned me into the kind of person who could make a big difference in this world and now I’m grateful for it.

Carrie: Wow. So you had told me when we talked earlier off the microphone, that you wouldn’t change anything that happened to you. I thought that was a huge statement for you to make.

Jennifer: Yes. If I had changed it, a lot of people will think those types of things like, oh gosh, if I could just go back and change time, like erase that part of my history, I would. I would not because of those reasons. Because I don’t even know what kind of person I would be. Maybe I would have been spoiled. Maybe I would’ve been entitled and selfish and oh goodness, I don’t want to be that kind of person. So I think everything that I went through shaped me into who I am into developing the skills that I’ve developed into serving the people that I serve.

If I were to go back and change any of it, then all of my current life and all of the people that I’ve been able to that might be changed and I would not want to do that. 

Carrie: I think that’s a huge statement and definitely it takes a lot of recognition on your part to see, and to identify all the different things, ways that God has used your story in a positive light.

So you talked a little bit earlier about going to therapy, seeking help. What were some other things that you did that helped you along that journey? 

Jennifer: One of the things that I did was I journaled quite a bit. I wrote things out, wrote out my thoughts, and I would be able to look back on that and process and try to put things into perspective. I also was very frank with God. So in my prayer life, I did not pull any punches. I was not afraid that He would be mad at me. I figured He is a big God, He can handle my anger. So I just let Him know how I was feeling and what I was processing through and I’m thankful that He still loves me in spite of my bad attitude, which I have had at times. Those types of things can be very helpful to people. Trying to put your thoughts into perspective. 

Carrie: I know that we’ve all had bad attitudes towards God at one time or another. It can be very frustrating just being on the earth and having a limited viewpoint. God has that vast viewpoint like you’ve talked about earlier and trying to bridge that gap in a way where we can humanly understand things. Sometimes we just, aren’t going to get it. Tell us about this better days journal that you created with your daughter. 

Jennifer: So my daughter just turned 18. She and I together, everyone in my family has had their issues. She has struggled with anxiety and depression. She’s autistic and she has ADHD. And so together, I had started creating some journals, planners, organizers, those types of things, where people can write and organize their day. I got the idea to have her help me pick some images to put into one because I knew that having something would help her. She had been struggling with her anxiety quite a bit.

I walk her through some exercises verbally, but I thought when she’s alone, if she had something where she could write her own things and just process through that on her own, without needing to come to mom, then that would be very helpful to her throughout her life. So I handed her a stack of images for the different sheets that could go into one of these.

And I said, why don’t you pick what you would want, in a journal or planner and she was so excited. She’s like me? Well, what would it be about? I said, well, what do you struggle with? So she listed off the things and I said, let’s do this and so it is now on Amazon. It’s Better Days Journal and the subtitle is for anxiety and depression, ADHD, and autism. So anyone who struggles with any of those types of things who might need to take a thought that’s negative and turn it into something positive. There’s a page that has little clouds where they can write the negative thought and then turn it into a positive thought. There are places where you can put down whatever it is you’re worried about, and then put it into perspective and ask yourself. Then when you get that perspective, it can help you to feel calmer and it can help you to feel like you have a step that you can take to move forward. And boy, that feels so empowering. 

Carrie: It does. So it was a little bit of a therapy journal combined with a planner and organizer.  That’s good. For the closing question, I used to do this question about, tell us the story of hope and then I started having people on to talk about personal stories. So it didn’t really make sense or have alignment because I thought, well, your whole story is hopeful. So I came up with a different question, which is still along with our hope theme. If you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?

Jennifer: That is a very powerful question. I would tell myself it’s going to be okay and you’re doing all the right things. Just keep that way. If I could just that one little snippet, that’s what I would say. I would and maybe even say, look for the help that is there. You’re not seeing it right now but look for it because it’s there.

Carrie: Sure. Somehow you got a glimpse that there could be a better life for you, and that seems to have propelled you forward. So that’s awesome. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for being on our show. I know that people are gonna really be blessed by this episode and be able to resonate with some of the things that you’ve talked about.

People that have been through traumatic experiences. Sometimes it’s really hard to reconcile that with faith and, and why questions, but I think that you provided some guidance for people on how to look for how God’s using this for good. So thank you so much for doing that. 

Jennifer: Thank you. 

Carrie: I want to tell you all about an exciting opportunity and something that I’m launching this month that is that we now have a subscription service for the show. The subscription is available for people who may be listening to the show on a regular basis, really believe in this ministry, and want to support what we’re doing. It’s also for people who would like access to exclusive content related to the show. What I’m going to start doing is having a monthly live question and answer format for our subscribers that will be videotaped and put in the subscription service. 

I am also including my thought hush program, which has mindfulness and meditative activities, a workbook that you can follow along with. This is all really just good self-help material to help you along your journey, whether you’re going to counseling or not going counseling. It’s something that will help your process as you’re working through your anxiety or OCD.

For more information, we will put this link in the show notes as well. You can go to, buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety. Thank you so much for listening to the show today, and we will be talking to you next week.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

46. Combating Emotional Eating with Scripture with Cat Sharp

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 46. Combating Emotional Eating with Scripture with Cat Sharp

After losing 100 pounds, Cat Sharp, a certified life coach has committed her life to helping more Christian women do the same. 

Today on the show, Cat shares with us how she overcame emotional eating and found God’s peace. 

  • Using food to cope with anxiety and depression
  • How God revealed to her that she had a sugar addiction.
  • Feeling convicted about her eating habit and making the decision to remove sugar from her household.
  • Meditating and using affirmations based on Scriptures
  • Learning new ways to manage emotions instead of turning to food.

Resources and Links:
Cat Sharp

Verses and Scriptures discussed: 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 6:16, The law of Moses in the Old Testament, 1 Samuel 30Follow us on Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/hopeforanxietyandocdpodcast
and like our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/hopeforanxietyandocd for the latest updates and sneak peeks.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

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Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 46. I’m your host Carrie Bach. If you’re new to the show, we’re all about decreasing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God. 

And today on the show,  I have Cat Sharp with me. She’s going to talk about her journey of overcoming emotional eating through using scripture and prayer support from others. Now she’s in a position where she’s helping other women who want to achieve the same goals. She’s a very powerful testimony, and I believe you’re really going to enjoy this episode. 

Carrie: Cat, welcome to the show. I’m excited about our conversation today. 

Cat: Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited too.

Carrie: So you had told me that prior to your weight loss journey, food had become an idol in your life. Tell us that story about God revealing that to you. 

Cat: It was such an interesting experience. I had been part of an abusive relationship, had walked away from the Lord for years and was in a deep season of depression and anxiety. I had created a habit of binge eating when I was unhappy, which was a lot. I didn’t realize I had done that until after the divorce, after I had returned to church, after I was starting to seek the Lord as actually my father, instead of just the genie on the shelf that, put them in that role.

When we think that we want to do things our own way, I started to seek Him. I started to feel this conviction about my eating habits. Around this time, our church started a recovery ministry and I am a singer part of our praise team. I joined the ministry thinking I was supporting music, not realizing that the Lord was getting ready to flip my life upside down.

So as I was participating in this ministry, being the helper, I thought I was. I’m hearing stories from our participants about they were bargaining, that they would only use whatever their addiction was on the weekends or when they were with friends or when they would only use this much, but never any more than that, I started to hear myself in their stories and I was saying those same things about food.

I would hear them talk about how they would do really well until they had a bad day. And then they would seek the object of their addiction. I thought, that’s me, I do that. One particularly terrible day,I had started to feel convicted about seeking sugar often and my reliance on that. I had cleaned sugar out of my house completely.

There was no sugar in my house and I’d had a very bad day at work. I remember coming home and opening the cabinet doors and throwing things out of the cabinet. Imagine for a moment, the cartoon where somebody is cleaning out the closet and they’re just throwing things over their shoulder, behind them really quickly. That’s what I was doing and every cabinet in the house. I remember crawling on my stomach in the lower cabinet reaching in as far as I could to get there had to be something in here. I thought there’s gotta be something back here and I reached the very, very back of the cabinet where the corners meet and I pulled out a Ziploc bag with just a little bit of powdered sugar in it. I put it in a bowl. I added a little bit of milk. I started up and I ate it with the spoon and I sat on the floor and I cried. What have I become? How did I get here? And so that was that, “Come to Jesus Moment” that instead of seeking the Lord on this day, that was really, really bad. I had turned to sugar and didn’t even taste it. 

Carrie: Wow. I’m sure that was a process that developed over time for you. I’m sure maybe even going back to childhood of relying on that for comfort. 

Cat: Absolutely. My mother owned a bakery when I was very young and through my work, through this process over the last few years, I realized that subconsciously I had learned from the experiences in the bakery of my mother, delivering these amazing, beautiful cakes to people for their parties and weddings and celebrations. Food brought joy. I’m from the South and we love each other with food. If you want to show love to someone, you give them food. And so I had kind of trained myself that if I wanted to feel loved or share love with someone, food is how we do that. And then going through a time where I needed love so desperately. I just kept bingeing, trying to feel that satisfaction and never really felt it. Of course, nothing fills that hole when you need the Lord. But at the time I wasn’t in a place that could be that. 

Carrie: Absolutely that makes so much sense and I’m in the south too. I would definitely resonate with that. We call it comfort food, or we’re talking about emotional eating and it’s just like, there are changes that happen in our brain too in terms of different receptors and things like that for sugar.

We do feel better temporarily in the moment and it makes sense that we can get in a way addicted to food. Not everybody necessarily looks at it like that, but I think when you’re talking about feeling that intense level of craving or need for something sugary, then that makes sense.

Sometimes getting started on making a major life change is the hardest part. I’m really curious about that decision that you made to get sugar out of your household and how that got started. 

Cat: I started just like you do every other new habit, right? Made the plans and I did the things, but what I learned very quickly is that my human willpower is very, very limited. After a few days, I got to the point where I didn’t think I could handle the temptation anymore. I was cranky and hateful and short-tempered with my family. I had a headache, my body terrible because I was going through the physical effects of withdrawal. I remember standing at the kitchen table crying and apologizing to my family.

I don’t know what’s wrong with me because my habit was to go to sugar at this point and I was not. So I had to learn a new way of managing those emotions after a couple of weeks of really, really trying to hold on with my own willpower. I hit my knees and there were days so many tears and anger and lashing out at God.

Why do I have to give up sugar? My husband doesn’t have to, my kids aren’t having to, my best friend doesn’t have to. I was angry with him for asking me to give this up. I was that and lamenting that first Christmas was very difficult realizing how many traditions I had that were around candy and cookies and food. That was so difficult. But once I made the decision to give it to Him and I had never actually faxed it before, so I didn’t have that experience. And so I remember studying about fasting and treating this like a fast and whenever I wanted sugar, that was my signal that I needed Jesus and I would go to prayer. I would go to my Bible. I had several, I call them on my 911 note in my phone when I desperately needed some help that I was tempted to jump off the wagon face first into a pan of brownies. I had my 911 note that I would read aloud. 

Oftentimes I had a friend that I could call just about any time. She was my accountability partner, interestingly enough, who hated sugar and was teeny tiny. It was almost like God was pulling judgment out of me to get skinny women. It was such an interesting experience and He put exactly who I needed in my life at that time.

Carrie: So tell us about this 911 note. Did that have scriptures on it or was it an affirmation about who you wanted to be on the other side of this journey? Was it like who you are in Christ? What kind of stuff was in there?

Cat: It had a little bit of all of that. I had song lyrics because as a singer, I love music. I had song lyrics in there. I had scriptures in there. I had statements that I had personalized from scripture in there. I plastered my house with truth and what I learned very quickly was affirmations unless they were based in scripture, that did not work for me because if I was trying to claim something that I could not say on the absolute worst day was true. I said my brain called BS and was trying to think the other way.

Carrie: And they would not receive that at all. It’s like, no.

Cat: Exactly. So I had what you could call affirmations based in scripture and I stated them in a way that was either personal towards me or personal towards the journey. I don’t believe that scripture is about me as a person at all. I believe scripture is about my Savior and my Heavenly Father. I don’t love the idea of personalizing scripture for all the time, but in those moments, that’s what I needed. And so like, some of my favorites were of course, 1 Corinthians 10:13, where this temptation I’m feeling is normal. It’s no more or no less than anybody else experiences.

And God’s already given me a way out. I just have to take the door and that was a very paraphrased version, but that was the truth that I needed to hear. This is not any worse than anybody else’s temptation. There are people who are tempted by illegal drugs. I’ve seen that experience and seeing it was almost like a mirror at one point. But seeing that personally and knowing as I read that scripture, this is no worse than anything anybody else is facing helped me not feel alone, helped me not feel helpless. 

Another favorite was Romans 6:16. I think I wrote it down because I wanted to share it. Yes, it was stated this way. I am only a slave to that, which I present myself because the sugar had no hold on me. My old habits had no hold on me. I was not a slave. I had a choice and I needed to be reminded that I had a choice in that moment when I didn’t necessarily feel like I did. But because it was based in scripture, I knew it was true. 

Carrie: That’s so good. Yeah. Like I don’t have to be a slave to sin or those former things like anymore. That’s a powerful promise. I think understanding our position in Christ as His child is so powerful. Like if we can wrap our minds around it. I think that’s huge and it changes a lot of personal decisions for us because hopefully like we’re following the Lord. We want to please Him and we want to honor Him, but also being in this state of I’m fully loved.

And I’m not always going to get it right. Like some days I’m going to mess up and I need the grace. It can make a lot of changes if you have. I think some of those go-to scriptures for whatever it is that you’re facing. I think we probably all need a 911 note in our phone for whatever issues are most pressing in your life right now. Like I’m meditating on a lot of scriptures about trust right now. Like where the Lord has me and I’m like, okay, like I trust you, I trust you. And here’s some things I can say to myself and when we repeat those truths to ourselves, sometimes it can help align our feelings. Would you agree with that? As we always feel like doing the right thing, pouring in of that truth can help motivate us. 

Cat: Absolutely and this is something in the last six months or so that there are many times that as disciples of Jesus, we’re called to do things we don’t feel like doing and oftentimes we like to say things like I’m not motivated to XYZ. Jesus didn’t feel like going to the cross for me, but He did it. So whenever I start to feel like that, I don’t feel like it, that has been the truth that has popped up is that if I’m called to do a job, I’ll just tell you. I didn’t feel like getting on a podcast chat today. I’ve had a long week, but I have a message that I want people to hear that they’re not hopeless and I have a message that I want people to hear. 

Jesus has done something that makes everything. He calls us to make everything possible and I felt so hopeless in that time of my life that I thought there was no way God could ever use me. There was a season in my life I truly thought that my job was to be miserable and I would have joy when I got to heaven. That was what I thought. There’s hope and I know there are women who feel that.

Carrie: Sure, you are utilizing prayer and scripture and did you find that group that you were going to and helping lead the praise like the recovery group? Did you find that helpful as part of your journey as well? Just like hearing other people’s stories and sharing a little share. 

Cat: Absolutely. One of the things that we started doing was challenging each other to reframe our statements. We as humans, we like to claim things. I am, whatever. I am an emotional eater.

I am an addict. I am whatever. Like you said, our identity in Christ is such a powerful concept. And that group, we built enough trust with one another, that we started challenging each other to reframe the way we spoke, because what comes out of your mouth is an overflow of what’s in your heart. And as I continue to tell myself, I am an emotional eater or I am a couch potato, I am whatever I’m going to say that way. And so we were challenging each other to recognize what was coming out of our mouth and reframe it to match God’s word and that was the reframe. That was the phrase that we said a lot. It’s a very helpful group and a very helpful experience. 

Carrie: Did you have an accountability partner along your journey? Did you have anybody that was helping you? Like in terms of what you do today is you are a coach for women. Did you have a life coach or a nutrition coach or anybody that was helping you along the eating journey? 

Cat: Not a coach. I had my group with our recovery ministry. I had my accountability partner and I was a member of a group that was supportive as far as healthy choices on the daily and exercise and things like that. Nobody was necessarily prescribing what to eat, which I think was probably a good thing because I was moving towards not just freedom from sugar, but also freedom from the diet mentality, which had done a lot of damage. Food freedom is a concept that we don’t quite understand really because of the diet culture that we’re in.

Carrie: Yeah. I wanted to talk about that a little bit more because you had talked with me about how diets can be like the law of Moses in the Old Testament. And some diets are very restrictive and I see a lot of my clients, Jojo in terms of what they’re doing and they go from either restricting to completely bingeing and they never find that like a medium of healthy eating. So can you talk with us about that a little bit. 

Cat: I’ve started and stopped a thousand diets in my lifetime. During each one, there would be that cycle of I’m doing great. Then there would be the feeling of deprivation and then the dip, whether it would be, I was angry that I couldn’t have what I wanted or  sticking to plan, or I would just jump off plan and say, forget it. This is stupid. And what ended up happening was my worth. My value became tied up in whether or not I was following the rules. If following rules made me holy, I wouldn’t have needed Jesus. And so I have to remind myself that my value is not determined on whether or not I stayed under a calorie level, or if I hit a certain level of macros.

And I fully believe that there are times that we do need to follow particular types of plans. I don’t think plans are bad. I think it’s the heart that we have when we go to them. There was one plan for salvation and Jesus Christ. So I don’t think plans are a bad thing in God’s eyes, but we have to make sure that we’re watching our hearts about the plan because if my worth comes from whether or not I follow the diet, that is not what God had in mind for me. That’s me presenting myself as a slave to something and living by a law that I’ve imposed upon myself. 

Carrie: And I think what you’re really showing is that any kind of life transformation, like this, has to come from the inside out because whenever we try to make those changes externally first, and it ends up being this white knuckle like type concept, and we can only hold it together and do it for so long.

But if you’re really like having to do the soul searching of why am I seeking out certain kinds of foods when I don’t feel well. Like when I have a really hard day at work, like what’s causing me to run into that direction instead of Jesus, then that’s going to make a much bigger difference. 

This took you three and a half years to go through this journey and process, right?

Cat: Yes.

Carrie: How did you persevere on that journey? Were there times where you were like, “Nope, I’ve lost a plate. I’m okay. I’m good. This is good enough”. Like, “I don’t want to have to do this anymore”, or “I want to go back and have some sugar in my life”. Like, what was that like on those hard days?

Cat: It’s so interesting during these three and a half years. It started with the sugar, that conviction about the sugar and the way that I was turning towards it too. Whenever I was in an emotional state and what ended up happening was I was studying who I am in Christ because I thought that would be helpful, but I didn’t believe any of it.

So then I needed to dig deeper. I started praying to the Lord, I want to know You helped me know Your character and that led to believing. And that was months and months and months, and I would just seek the names of God in the Old Testament and how He revealed Himself to His people. Over time, as I got to know God in a more intimate way, I started believing the things he was saying about me and the things He was saying about what it meant to be a child of God and what it meant to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ the holy spirit. 

I started believing those things and one thing that hit me when I was studying in the Old Testament was the story in 1 Samuel, I believe it’s Chapter 30 where David and his men come back to their town. The town has been burned to the ground and all of their wives and children have been taken by another army. Everybody is distraught. They’re talking about killing David because it was his fault. They’re away from home and all this stuff. I don’t remember the verses five or six verses in it say, David encouraged himself in the Lord. I thought that’s a bad day. Like David’s whole family was gone, his house was burned to the ground and the whole town. Everything was gone and David encouraged himself in the Lord. 

And I thought if David can turn to Jesus in that, I have no excuse to turn to brownies. I learned from the Old Testament stories and from the Psalms good examples of how we can react and respond when we have those bad days, because God knows that we have sad moments and we have painful moments. We have angry moments and the Psalms are full of experiences that you can read where David or the Psalmist were right. I’m upset. I’m sad. I’m scared. I’m lonely. I feel abandoned. I feel attacked, but You are good and I will praise You and it always turns back to praise. So that’s what I learned during that time, it’s okay to be sad, but I have to remember where to put my attention and that’s to the Lord. 

Carrie: Did this process just transform your prayer life in terms of getting really down and really honest with Jesus in terms of what you were feeling and thinking and experiencing? 

Cat: It did. I think the very first time I ever prayed was, “Lord, Your will be done” and I truly meant it during that season. I remember it very clearly. My niece was, I believe, eight years old and had gotten lost in the woods and it was cold. They live in Alaska actually and I got a call. She’s been missing about an hour now. We’ve got cops out, dogs out, we’re running to look for and it was going to get dark soon and I hit the concrete floor in our garage on my knees. I started praying for her to be found and at the time my sister was not following the board. We were raised in a good Christian home. She was living in a way that was very opposite of what we’d been raised in just like I had been during a season. And I remember feeling, what if this is what draws my sister back to God’s will, and I started crying and I said, Lord, Your will be done,

Your will be done, Your glory, be brought through this experience. That’s what I prayed and I remember feeling almost guilty for praying for 10 minutes. She was delivered to the house and a car. She had stumbled out of the woods on some street. Somewhere, a lady in a blue car stopped and said, honey, are you okay?

And she said, I live over there and she takes her home. They don’t know who the woman was. My sister is following the Lord right now and I’ll just never forget that experience of truly saying that whatever it is that needs to happen here, Lord, we want Your will to be done. And that was the scariest prayer, I think I’ve ever prayed, but yes, it did revolutionize my prayer life.

Carrie: Getting to that place of full surrender is so hard. Sometimes it’s so hard, whatever we’re facing, whether it’s emotional, eating, or anxiety or something. I think of even people that are struggling with anxiety coming to that, understanding that maybe this is what God is using in their life. Like Paul’s thorn in the flesh to minister to other people and maybe it’s what God’s using to transform their character.

So I like that your prayers weren’t just like, okay, take away this desire for sugar. I don’t want to have that anymore because I think that can be an easy place for us to fall into. Okay. Take this hardship out of my life, take this desire for sin out of my life, take this anxiety out of my life. Whatever it is that we’re like, just get rid of that God. Okay. Can we just eliminate that out? Like eliminate the hardship and instead, you really saw it. Okay. God teach me about Your character through this experience. Teach me when I understand Your character and who You are, then I can understand who I am in relationship as Your daughter and that guides your other processes.

I think in terms of life change.

Cat: It absolutely did. He used this experience to show me where I don’t like to use the term control freak, but I absolutely was. Everything had to go my way and it had to be organized and if things didn’t go according to plan, I lost my mind. So that came out during that time and I was convicted of that. My husband and I got married and I had been a single mom for a long time to a man who wasn’t very nice to me. The thought of letting him take control of our finances or be the head of our household, not gonna happen, I was the boss. Through this three and-a-half-year process, the Lord started to convict me of the way He had set up a Godly marriage and I was not allowing it to happen in my household. I remember crying to my husband and supposed to step back and let you be the leader of the household and whine and cry. But the Lord has completely flipped my life upside down, completely flipped my life upside because I committed this one thing to Him.

He used it to show me His character and His love for me and all the things that were possible here and the way that He can use even my broken parts to encourage other people. I don’t love telling the story of me climbing on the stomach in the cabinet. That’s kind of embarrassing. I don’t love telling it, but I do know that there’s somebody who’s going to be encouraged by that and know that I’ve had one of those kinds of days. 

Carrie: Like someone’s will say, I’ve had one of those kinds of days. Like, I’ve been there. So tell us a little bit about your coaching practice and what you do there. 

Cat: I love helping women like me. I love helping women who have dieted their whole lives and are still overweight. Women who may not yet be ready to admit that they might have a little bit of an issue with emotional eating. Women who want to honor the Lord, but don’t know how. 

No, there’s something more than just the diet. I’m not a personal trainer. I am not a nutritionist. And so I don’t give advice on those specific things, but I do love my Bible. I just start asking questions and we get in prayer together and we get in the scriptures together. It’s a wonderful experience just to see peace and food freedom for women who have been slave to the diet mentality and their value in the number on the scale, because that’s so prevalent.

Carrie: Yeah, unfortunately. There’s so many people, even people who aren’t overweight and have put value in what the scale says or what their body looks like and so much embodied dissatisfaction out there. But that’s a whole, whole nother topic. If you could, as our time is winding down to a close, like if you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?

Cat: I think that I would take her by the hand and tell her that there is no need to be ashamed, that all of the things that she’s embarrassed about and ashamed of. Jesus knew all of that when He died for her and she doesn’t have to stay there. 

Carrie: That’s so good. One of our purposes of the show is to reduce shame. So I think that falls right in line. With what we’re trying to do, to help people understand that when we have these stories and we’re able to speak about them out loud and address them and get help and find supportive communities within the church, that can be incredibly transformative as it was in your experience as well.

So thanks so much for sharing your story and your wisdom of how you got to where you are today. I really appreciate it.

Cat: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been an honor to share.

Carrie: This episode reminds me that we all have a powerful story inside of us. And sometimes we just need that courage to be able to step out and share it with others who need to hear it. So maybe that encourages you today to be a little bit more vulnerable at times, and encourages others who are in a place where maybe you’re a former self has been. 

I wanted to let you all know that we’ve been getting inquiries through the Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast Website about seeing me for counseling, which is really nice of you guys to want to see me.

However, there’s two issues that we have to address. First is that due to licensing requirements, you really have to be in the state of Tennessee in order to see me. We did not have a national counselor licensure although we are still holding out hope and would like to have it one day. Hopefully with telehealth becoming more prevalent and popular that will expand.

However, that’s not where we’re at. The other issue that we’re having is that, that’s just not a good place for those inquiries to come. And so if you really are in Tennessee and you want to see me for counseling, please go to the By The Well Counseling website. There is a link there through our podcast website. Both websites will take you to each other. So just make sure that you are on the right one for the right thing. If you are looking to give us show suggestions, tell us what the show means to you. Tell us about potential guests. Then definitely contact us through the Hope for Anxiety and OCD website. 

And if you’re looking for virtual telehealth counseling in Tennessee, you can contact me at the By The Well Counseling website. I hope that provides some clarity for everyone. If we don’t get back to you right away, it’s because unfortunately, sometimes you end up in a spam folder and we have to find you and rescue your message out of there.

But I know that between my assistant, Ella and I, we do seek to respond to all inquiries. So if you haven’t heard back from us, please send us another message. Thank you so much, everyone for taking the time to listen today.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.