Carrie: Welcome back, everyone. I am so excited to have Michael Kheir back on the podcast. He is the author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory. You can hear more about Mike’s story back on Episode 184, where he shares about his personal experience with scrupulosity and how he came to write his book to help other Christians who are experiencing similar things.

Mike saw that we were in the scrupulosity series and said, “Hey, I have some things that I’d like to say about this.” So we decided to collaborate on an episode together, which is super fun.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, and a licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present, abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Welcome back to the show.

Michael: Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me again.

Carrie: Yeah. Today we’re talking about healthy confession and repentance with scrupulosity. This is something that a lot of Christians with OCD really struggle with, so we’re going to get into a variety of different topics—the repetitive praying, the long confessional prayers, and just getting stuck confessing the same types of sin. So I hope that everyone will stay with us for this conversation.

The first thing that I wanted to talk about was this wrestling that all Christians have. We can’t get away from it—between what our flesh wants and what our spirit wants, and how we are in this daily battle with sin. Paul talks about this in Romans 7, which some of you may be familiar with, but I want to read a little bit of this and just get your take on it.

Romans, starting in verse 19: “For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one that does it, but it’s the sin that lives in me. So I discover this law: when I want to do what is good, evil is present with me. For in my inner self I delight in God’s law, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind I myself am serving the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin.”

I went through verse 25 there. What’s your reaction to this passage as you hear it?

Michael: Probably not what you’re expecting, but the first thing that came to mind was kind of an affirmation that we’re God’s child. I heard a sermon once where it was Dr. Tony Evans, who I reference in my book, and he talks about that battle being very real. And he’s like, non-Christians don’t even have that battle, right? They’re flesh, and they go on with their lives, and they’re dead in their sin, and they don’t even see the battles. And I think a lot of people with OCD are very sensitive to this battle, probably more so than most Christians.

Carrie: Sure.

Michael: So I actually see it as an affirmation that we are God’s children. Even though it’s kind of a heavy passage, that’s the first thing I take away from it.

Carrie: I think that’s important for people with scrupulosity to know, because they may see sins that come up in their life, or they may have an ongoing struggle that they’re dealing with—whether it’s an addiction, whether it’s explosive anger. It could be a variety of different things that they’re wrestling with—selfishness, pride. They feel like, “Oh, maybe this sin is somehow showing that I’m not a true believer.” They’re using the exact opposite reasoning process that you just used.

You said, “Hey, I have the wrestling. That means I’m a believer.” Whereas scrupulosity might say, “Oh, you have that wrestling. Maybe you’re not really God’s child.”

Michael: Sure. I would also say—and I’m sure you cover this theme in other episodes—is that OCD attacks what we value most. So if we really value our relationship with God, we most likely have salvation OCD: “Am I really a Christian? Am I really saved?”

And I think that comes back to confession and that we value peace, right? And I kind of want to make a joke that people with confession OCD are probably middle children, right, in the birth order. I’m a middle child, and we’re peacekeepers.

Carrie: Right. Yeah. Everybody just get along.

Michael: Exactly. Everyone get along. Nobody be mad. And I think that’s probably why we end up in this repentance cycle of, “God, I want to make sure I didn’t mess up and displease you.” And it’s because we value being right with God.

Again, I see it as a sign that we’re valuing the right things, even though it’s coming about in a twisted and cruel way. We’re just constantly feeling, “Oh, I need to make sure that I’m right. I need to make sure that I’m not in sin.” All of that is just pointing to the fact that we value our walk with God.

Especially me, as someone with OCD, I would have loved it if people had said that to me in my hardest years. So I’m saying it now. If you’re even listening to this and you’re struggling, it means you’re valuing the right things. It doesn’t mean the opposite.

Carrie: I have met Christians with scrupulosity who feel like this struggle between themselves and sin just shouldn’t exist. And it places this unrealistic expectation on their Christian walk. They’re like, “Well, I just shouldn’t lust anymore,” or “I just shouldn’t drink too much,” or “I just shouldn’t lash out at my kids.”

And I think the fact that Paul wrestled with these things—I find that very comforting. Because the Apostle Paul was a great hero of our faith, and for him to say with this depth, “What a wretched man I am,” but at the same time, “It’s Jesus that saves me from all of this.”

I think that helps people have realistic expectations, especially if they’re more on the perfectionistic side of things. They think, “Well, I should just be able to deal with this and eliminate it from my life,” which we’re powerless to do anyway. That has to be a work between God and the Holy Spirit in our life in the sanctification process.

I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered that at all, but I just wanted to speak to that.

Michael: You just touched on it. I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding of something about us as Christians. Without going into too much detail, there’s justification and sanctification. Justification is what happens the moment we accept Christ as our Savior. We are washed clean, and when God looks at us, He sees the perfection of Christ.

Then there’s sanctification, which is we are now becoming who we really are. Meaning we are now children of God, and we are perfect in God’s sight. But we still have a flesh, right? That’s our spirit, but our flesh is still there. I still have all the sin-bents I had before I accepted Christ.

Over time those will go away. There’s an example in the Bible where they say the wives were sanctifying their unbelieving husbands. It was sort of a picture of the fact that they were living out the Christian life, and it was rubbing off on their husbands.

I think that’s what it’s saying for us too. It’s even more powerful because Christ is in us. We have all the power that Christ gives us spiritually, and it’s to be used to fight the flesh. There’s really no contradiction there. It’s more that we are two different parts, and we need to see those two parts differently.

I can be perfect in Christ spiritually, and we will fight against the flesh—the temptations, the greed, the envy, the lust, the laziness—everything that we struggled with before. We’re still going to struggle with it. The Holy Spirit will slowly change that.

Carrie: Yeah. I think a lot of people may be listening to this saying, “How do I get out of this behavior?” And what you’re really pointing to is that this is an identity piece. Like when I understand that I’ve been justified in Jesus and that when God looks at me, He doesn’t see all of my mistakes and all of my mess-ups and all the times that I’ve turned my back on Him or hurt other people—He sees the blood of Jesus. That’s huge.

Michael: Yeah. I don’t know if I put it in my book, but I really focus on this. I think one of the hardest things to do as someone with OCD in Christianity is believe that God is as good as He says He is.

Because what you just said—a lot of us know it in our brains, but living it out in everyday life is the hard part. It’s getting it to our heart where my heart actually believes God does not see my sin. I am perfect in His eyes, and I can live as if that is a reality, because it is a reality.

I think a lot of the time we hear it, we acknowledge it, and then we’re like, “Yeah, but…” and we just go back to the cycle of guilt and condemnation instead of really allowing it to soak in. And I think maybe just praying and asking God to help that soak into our heart is a good place to go if you’re overwhelmingly going toward the OCD and condemnation cycles.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s huge.

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Christian Faith and OCD Ep 215

Carrie: Welcome back, everyone. I am so excited to have Michael Care back on the podcast. He is the author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach to Victory. You can hear more about Mike’s story back on Episode 184, where he shares about his personal experience with scrupulosity and how he came to write his book to help other Christians who are experiencing similar things.

Mike saw that we were in the scrupulosity series and said, “Hey, I have some things that I’d like to say about this.” So we decided to collaborate on an episode together, which is super fun.

Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Welcome back to the show.

Michael: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me again.

Carrie: Today we’re talking about healthy confession and repentance with scrupulosity. This is something that a lot of Christians with OCD really struggle with, so we’re going to get into a variety of different topics: the repetitive praying, the long confessional prayers, and just getting stuck confessing the same types of sin.

So I hope that everyone will stay with us for this conversation. The first thing that I wanted to talk about was this wrestling that all Christians have. We can’t get away from it, between what our flesh wants and what our spirit wants, and how we are in this daily battle with sin. Paul talks about this in Romans 7, some of you may be familiar with, but I want to read a little bit of this and just get your take on this.

Romans, starting in verse 19: “For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now, if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one that does it, but it’s the sin that lives in me. So I discover this law: when I want to do what is good, evil is present with me. For in my inner self, I delight in God’s law, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with my mind, I myself am serving the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.”

I went through verse 25 there. What’s your reaction to this passage as you hear it?

Michael: Probably not what you’re expecting, but the first thing that came to mind was kind of an affirmation that we’re God’s child. I heard a sermon once where it was Dr. Tony Evans, who I referenced in my book, and he talks about that battle is very real. And he is like, non-Christians don’t even have that battle, right? They’re flesh, and they go on with their lives, and they’re dead in their sin, and they don’t even see the battles. And I think a lot of people with OCD are very sensitive to this battle, probably more so than most Christians.

Carrie: Sure.

Michael: So I actually see it as an affirmation that we are God’s children, even though it’s kind of a heavy passage. That’s the first thing I take away from it.

Carrie: I think that’s important for people with scrupulosity to know, because they may see sins that come up in their life, or they may have an ongoing struggle that they’re dealing with, whether it’s an addiction or whether it’s explosive anger. It could be a variety of different things that they’re wrestling with: selfishness, pride. They feel like, “Oh, maybe this sin is somehow showing that I’m not a true believer,” like they’re using the exact opposite reasoning process that you just used.

You said, “Hey, I have the wrestling. That means I’m a believer.” Whereas scrupulosity might say, “Oh, you have that wrestling. Maybe you’re not really God’s child.”

Michael: Sure. I would also say, and I’m sure you cover this theme in other episodes, is that OCD attacks what we value most. So if we really value our relationship with God, we most likely have salvation OCD: “Am I really a Christian? Am I really saved?” And I think that comes back to confession and that we value peace, right? And I kind of want to make a joke that people with confession OCD are probably middle children, right, in the birth order. I’m a middle child, and we’re peacekeepers.

Carrie: Right. Everybody just get along.

Michael: Exactly. Everyone get along. Nobody be mad. And I think that is probably why we end up in this repentance cycle of, “God, I want to make sure I didn’t mess up and displease You,” and it’s because we value being right with God. Again, I see it as a sign of we’re valuing the right things, even though it’s coming about in a twisted and cruel way. We’re just constantly feeling, “Oh, I need to make sure that I’m right. I need to make sure that I’m not in sin.” All of that is just pointing to, we value our walk with God. Especially me, as an OCDer, I would love it if people had said that to me in my hardest years, so I’m saying it now. If you’re even listening to this and you’re struggling, it means you’re valuing the right things. It doesn’t mean the opposite.

Carrie: I have met Christians with scrupulosity who feel like this struggle between myself and sin, like that just shouldn’t exist. And it places this unrealistic expectation on their Christian walk. They’re like, “Well, I just shouldn’t lust anymore,” or “I just shouldn’t drink too much,” or “I just shouldn’t lash out at my kids.”

And I think the fact that Paul wrestled with these things I find very comforting, because the Apostle Paul was a great hero of our faith. And for him to say this depth, like, “What a wretched man I am,” but at the same time, it’s Jesus that saves me from all of this. But I think for me, to help people have realistic expectations, especially if they’re more on the perfectionistic side of things, like, “Well, I should just be able to deal with this and eliminate it from my life,” which we’re powerless to do anyway. That has to be a work between God, the Holy Spirit in our life, in the sanctification process. I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered that at all, but I just wanted to speak to that.

Michael: You just touched on it. I think the problem comes from a misunderstanding of something about us as Christians. Without going into too much detail, there’s justification and sanctification. And justification is what happens the moment we accept Christ as our Savior. We are washed clean, and when God looks at us, He sees the perfection of Christ. And then there’s sanctification, which is we are now becoming who we really are, meaning we are now children of God and we are perfect in God’s sight. We still have a flesh, right? That’s our spirit, but our flesh is still, I still have all the sin bents I had before I accepted Christ. And over time those will go away.

And there’s an example in the Bible of, I believe they say the wives were sanctifying their unbelieving husbands, and it was sort of a picture of just the fact that they were living out the Christian life. It was sort of rubbing off on their husbands. I can’t remember exactly where that is, but I think that’s what it’s saying is that it’s even more powerful for us because Christ is in us. We have all the power that Christ gives us spiritually, and it’s to be used to fight the flesh. There’s really no contradiction there. It’s more that we are two different parts, and we need to see those two parts differently. I can be perfect in Christ spiritually, and we will fight against the flesh and the temptations and the greed, the envy, the lust, the laziness, everything that we struggled with before. We’re still going to struggle with. Sure, the Holy Spirit will slowly change that.

Carrie: I think a lot of people may be listening to this saying, “How do I get out of this behavior?” And what you’re really going to is this is an identity piece. Like, when I understand that I’ve been justified in Jesus and that when God looks at me, He doesn’t see all of my mistakes and all of my mess-ups and all the times that I’ve turned my back on Him or that I’ve hurt other people, He sees the blood of Jesus. That’s huge.

Michael: I don’t know if I put it in my book, but I really focus on this. I think one of the hardest things to do as an OCDer with Christianity is believe that God is as good as He says He is, because what you just said, a lot of us know it in our brains, but it’s true in everyday life, and that’s the part that’s hard. It’s getting it to our heart where my heart actually believes God does not see my sin. I am perfect in His eyes, and I can live as if that is a reality, because it is a reality. I think a lot of the time we hear it, we acknowledge it, and then we’re like, “Yeah, but…” We just go back to the cycle of guilt and condemnation instead of really allowing it to soak in. And I think maybe just praying and asking God to help that soak into our heart is a good place to go if you’re overwhelmingly going towards the OCD and the condemnation cycles.

Carrie: That’s huge. When we talk about conviction, I’m curious for you, how did you come to an understanding of the difference between this is Holy Spirit conviction, I need to confess something, because that’s an experience that all Christians should have, versus this is some type of OCD condemnation coming over me and now I feel this intense fear where I have to confess something?

Michael: Sure. First, start with an example of what healthy confession does not look like, because it’s almost comical, and I think I touched on it in our first discussion, where I was on a spring break trip in college and I had to slightly unzip my pants to tuck in my shirt in a crowded setting. And I think there was one girl in this very crowded room who didn’t see it, but I was like, “Oh my gosh, what if there’s a 1% chance she saw that? It’s so inappropriate.” It didn’t really bother me in the moment, but then after the trip, I went home and I would start reading my Bible, and these thoughts of, “How dare you think you can come and spend time with God if you’ve just offended this Christian girl? You need to go apologize.”

I tried to ignore it because in my head, in our minds, I think our conscience recognizes sometimes when something’s an OCD thought and sometimes not. This one, I think I did realize, but I couldn’t shake the fear that I was in the wrong here. So I eventually sent an email to the girl’s boyfriend apologizing, and after I sent it, I immediately realized it was wrong. That is not what God wanted me to do. It was chaotic, confusing, awkward, just not of the fruit of the Spirit.

I actually spend an entire chapter in my book talking about deciphering God’s Spirit, basically, from everything else. So the first passage is in Galatians 5, where Paul’s telling us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And he says, “Against such things there is no law.”

So when I think of a time I wanted to confess, like the one I just described, none of it had the handprint of God on it. The thought was not kind. It was more like, “How dare you come before God if you have this wrong against someone?” It was very unkind. It was very condemning. And then there was the word joy there, and I find it actually applicable to use that word because I have another example in my life. I had a very tumultuous relationship with my dad. I remember listening to a sermon about being made right with other people at some point in my twenties, and normally it would just send me down this condemnation cycle, but there was something that I really did. I messed up with my dad, and I needed to apologize. And in listening to that sermon, the Holy Spirit really did convict me. I actually had joy, like, “You know what? I really should go make this right with my dad. It’s really bad that there’s friction between us, and I’m going to go do it.”

And I went and I apologized. The difference there was that there was no forced compulsion. It wasn’t like, “If you don’t go make it right with your dad, God’s never going to bless you. God’s going to be angry with you and not give you the things you really want.” There was none of that. It was just, “This is what I should do,” and it brought me joy to even think about going to do it, and it was a very gentle voice that was speaking to me. And I think we can almost start training ourselves to realize what the OCD voice is and what God’s voice is. And it’s right there in God’s Word. When God talks to us, it’s full of love, joy, peace, all of those descriptions.

Carrie: I think that’s great. And I love what Romans 8:1 says too, that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. So if you’re experiencing that condemnation, it’s not coming from God.

Michael: Absolutely. I think about it how I relate to my daughter. If I ever want her to apologize to a kid at school for something, it’s always for her benefit. Even indirectly, you need to learn that what you did was maybe mean and you need to apologize, or explaining why somebody should have apologized to her even if they didn’t. It’s never, “Oh man, you royally messed up and you got to go apologize, or they’re not going to play with you ever again.” But even saying, “I won’t accept you in this house anymore,” like that’s almost the severity that we feel sometimes when we’re confessing, when we have OCD. And it’s obviously not God, and it’s nothing we would ever do to our own kids. Probably we would never even do to our own enemies.

Carrie: I shared this in an email that I had sent out, but I don’t think I’ve ever talked about it on the podcast. When my dad would get onto me, it was kind of hard, and part of that was just he was kind of a big, scary dude. Not that he meant to scare me or things like that, sure, but when you’re a little kid and your dad’s kind of like a linebacker, it was a little scary, and I was more sensitive. So I wanted my daughter, in some of these correctional experiences, to know, like, “Hey, I’m correcting you. You did get time-out for this,” and all that, but at the end I would tell her, “This is what was wrong. This is why it happened. This is why you had the discipline,” whatever, “but I just want you to know I still love you.”

I think that puts discipline and correction in general into perspective. If my daughter knows, like, “Hey, Mom is disappointed that I made my own choice and there is consequence, but she still loves me,” that helps her feel more secure. And we can have that security as Christians in our relationship with Christ, that God still loves you regardless of what sin you might be struggling with, past or present.

Michael: Absolutely. I love the word you used, perspective, and I think so much of OCD, not just confession, I think all the problems in scrupulosity, I shouldn’t say all, almost all stem from an incorrect view of God and an incorrect view of how God sees us, right? If we really have this baseline of God is love, literally that’s who He is, and God loves us, and that is the entire relationship we have with Him is based on grace, right? That’s the foundation.

Then when we come to, “I need to apologize for something,” or “I need to confess something,” if it’s done with that being the foundation of the entire relationship, it looks completely different than how OCD brings the compulsion to confess to us. It’s completely opposite. I think the fruit, self-control, is the most eye-opening for me in Galatians 5 because OCD and compulsion are like the opposite of self-control. We’re just almost so compelled to go do something out of fear that we do it. That’s the opposite of how God would speak to us about doing something.

Carrie: I want to talk a little bit about hypervigilance because some people who are struggling with scrupulosity in this issue with confession, it’s almost like they’re on the lookout for sin at any point in time. And there was another author, Tiffany S., she wrote a book about anxiety, but with her anxiety she had almost some of these scrupulous ideas from time to time. And she tells a story about being paralyzed in the toothpaste aisle. “Do I buy the cheaper toothpaste because God wants me to save money, or do I buy this other toothpaste over here because it’s more all-natural and it’s closer to maybe what God would want me to use on my body, et cetera?” And just that paralysis, and almost thinking like if I buy the wrong toothpaste it’s going to be sin, like that would be an example of that people can get stuck with.

And I know you’ve had some paralysis of decision-making and things like that too, God’s-will type stuff. But I find that some people, it’s almost like, okay, there’s an urgency. Obviously we know behind the OCD, I’ve got to figure out if this is a sin, whatever this is, and then if it is, I have to confess it right now. Everything has to come to a full stop. But I wonder how people maybe can be aware of sin without feeling like they’ve got to be so hypervigilant to pounce on it at any point in time.

Michael: Sure. Again, this goes back to our view of God. In my book, I gave an example about how we need to walk in the grace of God, and I give an example of two different bosses. One is cruel, harsh, judgmental, always trying to put their employees down. And I make the proposition, let’s say that that boss came to you and said, “I’m going to give you a 25% raise if you meet all these conditions that I’m giving you now in the next six months.”

Our view of that would be, we would want the raise, obviously, so we would try. But we would constantly be, like you said, hypervigilant. “Oh my gosh, did I mess this up? Did I send an email to a customer and copy him and use a comma where I shouldn’t have and he is going to ding me for it? Or I was five minutes late yesterday, even though I stayed two hours late the night before. Is he going to ding me for that? My tone in the meetings with upper management, was it right?” And we’re just going to constantly obsess on, are we doing it exactly right? And the root of all that is fear because we know our boss is not good and he’s going to look for anything he can basically to withhold the 25% raise or whatever he promised.

And I think that’s what happens when we have OCD. We start viewing God as harsh and our relationship with Him as merit-based. God loves me, again, separate from salvation, like we can even know we’re saved and not struggle with that, but still be like, “God’s not going to bless me. I’m not going to feel close to God. I’m not going to be doing His will unless I read the Bible for the exact amount of time I’m supposed to, pray enough, help the needy enough, do all these things.”

But really, in my book, I go on and I talk about, let’s talk about the opposite boss. Let’s say this boss was kind, gentle. All he did was build up his employees. All he did was want to see them succeed. If they messed up, he would make sure that he got them the tools they needed to not mess up. Then he gave us that same promise. We would be completely relaxed in how we approach trying to meet the requirements to get the raise. We’d be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing. If I mess up, I know he’s so kind, he is going to let me know. There’s not going to be any surprises, right? He is not going to pull the sheet out from under me like, just kidding, you almost made it. You made this one mistake.”

And I think it all comes down to the word grace. We have to understand that God is gracious, and I love that word for OCDers because grace is unmerited favor. It’s favor we don’t deserve, which means it’s favor we can’t do anything to get. And that’s what I love because OCD is always pushing us to go do something to get something, and God is saying, “No, your relationship with Me is based only on Me doing something for you, so stop trying to do to get right with Me. You’re never going to do it. Just walk in My love.”

And I think that’s where it’s so hard for our hearts to believe that, that I always say the hardest thing for an OCD Christian to do is believe that God actually is that good. He is going to keep that promise to love us independent of anything we’ve done.

Carrie: I think the reality is, though, that we’ve been overcomplicating our spirituality for a long time now. You know, look at the Pharisees. It’s like, well, we’ve got to tithe. But then it went into, well, all of a sudden we’ve got to tithe our spices and all these other things. And then Jesus comes along and says, “I don’t really care if you tithe your dill because you’re not treating the poor well, you’re not loving people, you’re not being kind to them. Your heart’s all a mess.” And I think potentially this is kind of like one of the ploys of the enemy to get us off track of, “Hey, be uber concerned over here so that you miss kind of the big picture of what God is trying to do in your life.”

Michael: Absolutely.

Carrie: I know that some people will repeat confessional prayers over the same sin, so I wanted to address that too. Like there’s that sin that haunts somebody. It could have been an abortion they had when they were 17 and now they’re 35. It could be somebody that hurt someone or walked away from a previous marriage and now they’re just still stuck on that thing, and some of that stuff can be really hard to overcome. We’ve talked about this on the podcast before. There is no sin that God can’t forgive. 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sin, that He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Psalm 103:12, “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.” Any hope or encouragement that you have for people who may be stuck in that, confessing the same sin?

Michael: My answer was actually kind of in your question, and it’s, “How far is the east from the west?” I was just reading a blurb about that recently, and the east is infinitely far from the west, right? If you’re going east around the globe, there’s always a part that’s west forever, whereas north and south, there actually is like a North Pole and a South Pole. And I read somewhere somebody wrote that God, in His wisdom, intentionally wrote east from west because they’re infinitely apart. Your sin is no longer there in God’s eyes. It’s gone forever.

It’s almost just every time we feel like we have to confess a past sin, remember that and almost refuse to and be like, “I will not ask forgiveness again because God said He forgave me for this.” Easier said than done.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: But that’s the one thing we can do, is just refuse to give into that and be like, “No, I’m going to believe God.” It was that 1 John 1:9, if we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive, and He does. And I think we have to just stand on that and remind ourselves of that whenever it comes up again, because the condemnation of a past sin is never from God.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: “Therefore now no condemnation for us.” So it’s either coming from our OCD minds or it’s coming from Satan, or it’s coming from somewhere other than God, and we can ignore it because God said in His Word, it’s done.

And another thing I wanted to talk about with confession and repentance is that repentance is really just changing your mind. So if somebody’s struggling with drinking too much on the weekends, just as an example, and they’re like, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t do it,” and then they do it and then they have no intention of not doing it again, that’s not repentance. But if they decide, “You know what? I’m not going to do that again,” that’s what repentance is. So if we’re looking at a divorce or an abortion or a one-time-event sin that we clearly have repented of, we’re not going to do again, those in my mind are so obviously something we don’t need to address again. We don’t need to confess it to God. We don’t need to confess it to other people again. It’s done. It’s forgiven. And that’s the whole point of the gospel, right? God makes us new again.

Carrie: I see what you’re talking about, like repentance for the ongoing sin, because repentance is really about turning in a different direction. It’s saying, “Okay, if every time I’m around these friends, I’m cussing like a sailor, maybe I really don’t need to be spending that amount of time with those friends because it’s leading me away from God, not towards God.” Or if, like you said, if I’m drinking on the weekends and I make a decision, “Okay, God, You’ve convicted me about this. I don’t need to be having this much alcohol,” then I can say, “Hey, let me call another brother or sister and say, ‘Hey, I want you to hold me accountable. I want you to ask me about this or make sure that I’m getting stuff out of my house.’”

Whatever those prevention-from-sin activities are, putting the filters on your computer, on your phone if you struggle with pornography, there are so many different things that we can do. And that doesn’t mean that we’re never going to fall back into that sin again, but at least we are making some efforts or steps or movements in that right direction. It may be, “Hey, I can’t get a handle on this and I need to seek professional help.” And I think that’s certainly on the table as well too.

Michael: I was listening to Mark DeJesus, I don’t know if you’ve heard of him or ever talked to him, and he was talking about how people with OCD, he reaches mostly Christians, and he said a lot of them will start doubting they’re Christians because they have this addiction or repetitive sin. And he did bring up pornography as being a common one. I’m sure there’s other ones that are just repetitive that are hard to break. And he said that is common.

And I just want to bring up, that goes back to Romans 7. The fact that we’re fighting it and those people see it as an addiction or see it as like, “Oh my gosh, I need to break free of this,” that in and of itself is evidence that there’s something working in them against their flesh, which is the Holy Spirit. So it’s encouraging that they’re feeling overwhelmed by not being able to break the habit.

Carrie: I think this is an important point to bring up. Proverbs 28:13 says, “Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.” What I notice is that shame can really get in the way of repentance because if we turn towards shame and we get stuck there, it makes us want to hide instead of actually making us be able to connect with God and actively deal with our sin. We’re just like, “Well, how can I cover up the fact that I have this struggle with pornography and never tell anyone and just maybe say a prayer, ‘Oh God, please take it away from me,’ but I’m not actually willing to look at my heart and things that led me to develop that in the first place or get stuck in that cycle?”

Michael: And I think that’s where seeing our relationship with God out of a foundation of love helps, because there are obviously times where we need to confess things, but if we’re doing it with a believer that we know loves us and wants what’s best for us, and I know it’s hard to find, I’m not just saying that casually. I know it’s very hard to find strong, even lifelong friends where you can entrust those types of things to them. But it’s always in love.

And actually, Mark DeJesus was talking about this, and he goes, a lot of people with OCD even fear the topic of spiritual warfare. It’s just scary to them. And he goes, even that, we need to see it from a relationship foundation of love. God loves us and wants what’s best for us. And when we see spiritual warfare through that light, it changes the whole way we view it. So even something that we’re like, “Oh, this is overwhelming. I don’t know what to do. Satan’s around every corner,” we start spiraling. It’s like, well, if we view our relationship with God as He’s all loving and all capable and He wants what’s best for me and He cares for me and He died for me, He’s obviously going to take care of me as I fight this battle, this spiritual battle. And the same with fleshly battles, right? It’s a relationship of love. I’m not going to lie and say finding someone to trust is easy, but it is definitely something to pray for.

Carrie: Is there anything that you don’t think that we’ve touched on or anything that you further wanted to share?

Michael: I wanted to talk about kind of the lie that we often believe as OCDers about the butterfly effect, and I want to give an example from my book. Well, I actually still do a lot of sports photography, and in college I took a picture at Midnight Madness. It was a college basketball event. They put a picture that I had taken on the front page of the paper, and I remember the jersey that the guy was wearing was all orange. There was a lot of orange in the photo, and I kid you not, my thought process went something like this: “Oh my gosh, what if it wasn’t God’s will that I take pictures at the game? That means it wasn’t God’s will that they’re using the orange ink. What if they ran out of orange ink and somebody had to go get more toner cartridge from the store or from down the hall and they died going to get it? Their blood’s on my hands because I took pictures at the game.” Total ludicrous chaos.

Carrie: OCD could make a really good story.

Michael: Exactly. OCD is very creative. And I feel like sometimes we’ll view sin that way too, right? The decisions we make: “Oh, I committed this one little sin, and now somebody’s life is completely off the rails forever. Or my life is completely off the rails forever.” I remember having thoughts about where should I eat in college. Like there’s all these cafeterias. If I go to this one, what if I open to the wrong person and say the wrong thing and create a situation that derails their life or derails my life? It’s that whole fear is a lie because God is ultimately in control.

And so I wanted to bring that up because I think that is a big theme that OCDers have about sin, is that I’m going to commit this one sin that will just be irreversible for all of time.

Carrie: It’s going to wreck my life, potentially.

Michael: Exactly. And that is the opposite of what God says. God redeems us. He even loved the verse about the locusts that had destroyed the crops in, I think it’s Joel, and He says, “I’ll even restore to you the years that the locusts have eaten.” God can literally change events and life for us to restore us. That’s the whole point of the gospel, is to make us new again.

Carrie: I just encourage people to remember, we’re not that powerful. We’re not that powerful to mess up God’s plans, but OCD will have you convinced the whole world hangs on this one moment in time and making the right choice in that one moment in time.

But I wanted to end on a scripture that I really feel like brings this whole conversation into balance, and it’s 1 John 2:1. I love this so much for OCD and scrupulosity. “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” And so there’s this balance. I think sometimes people fear not taking their sins seriously enough, and for John to say, “Hey, I’m writing this to you so that you don’t sin, but I want you to know if you do, we have Jesus.” I just think that is so beautiful, and hopefully that’s the truth that people can hold onto as they’re listening to this today.

Michael: Absolutely. I don’t have any concern that Christians with OCD are not taking their sins seriously enough. I think it’s always the other way around. You just reminded me of a really cool story. I remember where somebody was explaining what it looks like when somebody doesn’t take their sin seriously, right? And I think it was about, it might’ve been in a sermon, somebody was talking about somebody that had, I think, assaulted a woman, and they were having to get counseling for it. And in the counseling there was no remorse. It was almost like, “I’m just here because I have to be here. Let’s just get through this so we can move on.” There was no understanding of what they had done wrong. There was really no conscience. And that person said that was really freeing for me to see that because I know that’s not how I view my sin.

Carrie: Right.

Michael: It’s kind of like if you see it the way it’s not supposed to be done, you’ll know that the way we view sin as OCDers is not at all the wrong way. We are definitely viewing it with the weight that it deserves, if that makes sense, and even too much weight.

Carrie: Thank you so much for coming back and hanging out on the podcast with us today.

Michael: Thank you for having me.