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216. How Do I Know I’m Saved?

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie dives into why salvation doubts can feel so real for Christians with scrupulosity and how OCD can pull believers into convincing fear-based stories about their faith.

Episode Highlights:

• Why salvation doubts can be common among Christians

• How scrupulosity creates fear-based faith narratives

• The difference between grace-based salvation and work-based thinking

• Spiritual seasons and why feelings of closeness with God change

• Understanding the OCD bubble through Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT)

Episode Summary: 

What if I’m not really saved?

For many Christians, this question can feel incredibly unsettling. If you struggle with scrupulosity or religious OCD, those doubts can become even louder and harder to ignore.

In OCD treatment, we often talk about the obsessional story, which is the way OCD builds a narrative in your mind using bits of truth, imagination, and fear.

Before you realize what is happening, you may find yourself pulled into OCD bubble, where everything feels urgent and emotionally real.

This conversation explores what that process can look like and why it often feels so convincing.

Why Some Christians Question Their Salvation

There are several reasons believers begin questioning their salvation, even when they genuinely love God.

Sometimes it happens because someone was saved at a young age and later wonders if they truly understood what they were doing.

Other times it comes from comparing your faith story to someone else’s.

You might also question your faith during seasons when you do not feel close to God or when you are struggling with ongoing sin.

These experiences are more common than many people realize, and we take a closer look at some of the reasons these doubts surface.

The Role OCD Can Play in Spiritual Doubt

For people dealing with religious OCD, faith is often one of the things they care about most. Because of that, OCD can target those beliefs and turn them into intense mental battles.

You may find yourself replaying thoughts, analyzing past experiences, or searching for certainty about your salvation.

OCD has a way of mixing together facts, fears, and past experiences to create a story that feels believable, even when it leads to unnecessary distress.

Understanding this process can be an important step toward finding peace.

A Different Way to Look at Salvation Doubts

Many Christians have been taught that spiritual life should always feel strong and confident. But the reality is that faith journeys include many different seasons.

There are mountaintop moments where you feel deeply connected to God.

There are also quieter or more difficult seasons where things feel dry or uncertain.

We also look at how scrupulosity and OCD can influence these fears and how understanding the reasoning process behind those thoughts can help you begin moving forward.

Along the way, there are reminders about the nature of salvation and the role of God’s grace in our lives.

Scriptures Mentioned in This Episode

Ephesians 2:8–9

Romans 10:9

Romans 8:15–17

If you have ever wrestled with questions about your salvation or felt trapped in spiritual doubt, this conversation is for you.

Tune in to this episode to explore navigating salvation doubts with faith and wisdom.

Transcript

Today we’re talking about, “How do I know that I’m saved?” And I’ve really struggled to put this episode together because I didn’t want it to be just some kind of giant reassurance-seeking fest for people. However, I know that this is a big question that many Christians with OCD are wrestling with. Even if you don’t have OCD, lots of Christians have some everyday doubts about whether or not they’re saved.

The problem is that if you have a religious form of OCD called scrupulosity, it can take these everyday doubts and blow them up into a giant horror movie in your brain where you’re separated from God forever. And in inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, we talk a lot about the obsessional story and how these doubts don’t just exist in isolation. They draw you into a storyline, and the plot is based on a mixture of fact and fiction. So there’s real emotion that gets laden onto these things. And even though you’re being led into an imaginary worst-case-scenario outcome, you don’t necessarily realize that you’re going into the imagination. You’re crossing over this imaginary bridge into what we call the OCD bubble.

Once you’re in the bubble, it’s very hard to recognize that you’re in the bubble. Everything feels real and scary, and it doesn’t feel quite safe to stay in that place, but it also feels really irresponsible, or it doesn’t feel okay, to leave.

Let’s talk for a moment about why people have doubts about their salvation. So for some people, they doubt their salvation because maybe they were saved really young. Maybe they don’t have a full memory of the experience. Maybe they remember it, but they feel like, you know, there were a lot of pieces spiritually that I just didn’t understand. And to that, I would say, of course there are things that we’re going to understand at a different level when we’re an adult than when we were a child. But did your child self understand it on a child level?

Other people would say, well, I’ve been listening to other Christians, and they have these dramatic testimonies, these extreme conversion experiences. They were using drugs before, and they didn’t care anything about God. They were an atheist. And then God met them somehow, and they knew it was Him, and now they’re not using drugs, and they are fully devoted to Jesus and telling everyone else about Him. And sometimes when you hear drastic and dramatic testimonies like that, it can cause you, if you don’t have one of those, to think, well, did I have a real experience? Am I really a Christian? So I think that’s why some people doubt.

Each person’s experience with the Lord is different in our meeting with Jesus. You can even see that with Jesus’ disciples. There were some that were kind of like, “Hey, come and meet Jesus. Come and see what’s happening.” And then you have, of course, Paul on the road to Damascus, and he has a dramatic conversion experience.

Maybe you don’t have a specific day or time that you can point to in regard to when you decided to follow Jesus. Maybe it was a gradual process. Over time, you slowly started to engage in spiritual practices, and at some point along that line, you made that decision each and every day to get up and to follow Jesus, to be His disciple. And I think people who have that version of their story struggle because they hear other people say, “Well, I know I was saved on June the first in 1985, and that was the day that I gave my life to Christ.” And so someone who has a more gradual conversion story may really struggle, like, is my experience real?

You may doubt your salvation by saying, “You know what? I just don’t feel close to God.” We’ve talked about this on the podcast before, that I do believe feelings are important. I don’t believe that we should just dismiss everything that we feel. We have to find this balance of our feelings do provide some helpful information for us sometimes. And there were certainly emotions that led me to start this podcast, whether those were sadness, deep empathy, and a little bit of anger about maybe easy answers in the Christian community. And all of that was very helpful for me and propelled me to do something positive after having that emotional experience.

So when we talk about, “I don’t feel close to God,” this is somewhat nebulous. Because you think about the other relationships in your life, whether it’s a parent or a spouse or a best friend, there may be times that you feel really close and connected to that person, and then there may be other times where you don’t feel as close and connected, but you know that you love them. You know that you care for them. You know that you wouldn’t want anything negative to happen to them, that you would want to rush to their aid if they needed you. So we can have that sense of love for God even if we don’t feel close to Him right now.

Sometimes people will say as part of their obsessional story, “Well, I don’t feel the same way that I did when I got saved.” I think you could ask a lot of married people, “Do you still feel the same way that you did the day that you got married?” That is a mountaintop, exciting experience, full of love. You’re surrounded by lots of friends and family. It’s a beautiful thing, but we may not feel that same exact way two years later. That doesn’t mean that we don’t love our spouse. It just means we’re in a different season right now, and we have different seasons spiritually.

We have these mountaintop experiences with God. Think about when you are a teenager going to youth camp, if that was part of your experience. Everyone’s so excited about God, and they’re like, “Yes, I totally want to follow Him and live for Him the rest of my life, and I want to tell all my friends about Jesus.” And then slowly that starts to fade as you get back into the real world, and some of that is just normal. So don’t allow OCD to use these types of things as evidence that you’re not saved or that you don’t love God.

We just recently, in January, went through a period of prayer and fasting with our church. I would say that was a recent mountaintop experience for me. It was exciting. We just saw some answered prayer, very profoundly felt close to God, very connected in prayer. We had a lot of corporate gatherings of prayer early in the morning. It was cold, but we went there. It was just a beautiful time.

And then February hit, and even toward the end of January and into February, it was like my family was super sick. Just things were very different going on there, right? It’s a different experience, not feeling maybe as connected or as close to God. We still love God. We’re still participating in spiritual activities. We’re still reading our Bible. We’re still praying. It’s just a harder season because we went through a lot of sickness and didn’t feel good, had some rough weather. It was a rough winter this winter, but that’s okay. Spring is here or coming.

There are also times in your spiritual journey, or I’ve experienced this as well, where you’re going through immense suffering. You’re sad, you’re depressed, you don’t even know if you want to get out of bed. What is the point of all this? Why am I here? And those are the valley experiences that we have spiritually. Those are the desert seasons.

There’s a song that I really love called Desert Song, and it’s been around a while, but it’s really just kind of followed me through different hard seasons of my life. I’ll put that song back on, and the whole idea behind it is I’m going to praise God regardless of the season that’s going on in my life. When things feel really dry and empty and lonely and dark, God is still here. God is still worthy of praise.

You may doubt your salvation if you’re struggling with an ongoing sin. And this is something that we talked about in the confession and repentance episode, so I encourage you to flip back to that one and listen to it. It’s really good. And we talk about how the struggle that you’re going through shows that you are battling with sin and can confirm to yourself that you are a believer, that you are connected to God, because you are actively working toward eradicating that sin out of your life. That struggle means that you’re a work in progress, that God is still working on you and in you, and that you are still partnering with the Holy Spirit in that sanctification process.

The final reason for salvation doubts that I want to talk about is that people have bought into a works-based salvation. They’re depending on what they are doing and determining whether or not that’s good enough for God. And it’s interesting because I’ve talked with many people who have these doubts, and they will say, “Well, yeah, I know that’s not the gospel, but I feel like this.”

So I want to share that all of these things that we’ve talked about are all things that OCD uses as part of the obsessional story to draw you in and cause you to believe something that’s not true. And so it’s helpful for us to know that because if we know that, and we know these potential contributions to the obsessional story, other potential contributions may be people that you know who have walked away from the faith. That may be a huge contribution to some of this. “Well, I thought that they were really dedicated, and they walked away from the faith, and so what does that mean about me?”

Feelings of inadequacy, of feeling bad about yourself, can cause you to feel like, yeah, the Scripture promises and Word are for everyone else. Somehow I’m outside of that. That’s not really for me. This is very common in scrupulosity.

Oftentimes, I’m running into people that have read the Bible, they’ve studied the Scriptures, they’ve been under the teaching. They’ve done their fair share of Googling about their spiritual doubt process. And what we know is that OCD does use specific facts. It uses personal experience. It uses hearsay, the things that we’ve heard about other people. It uses news articles. All of these things are thrown into this obsessional story, and we can write a convincing story and make it sound really believable, and we can put fear in there or anticipation. And that can cause people to feel real emotions.

So that’s why they might say, “I know that this doesn’t make sense, but I also know that it feels real,” and it gets very, very confusing internally, right? That’s what OCD does. Because there’s this blend of fact and fictional elements, it seems like it’s true. It stirs up a lot of emotion, and you get stuck in that fear.

Really, the way out of that is by being able to examine that story differently, recognize the thinking errors that are happening, not to challenge the negative thoughts, but to recognize the reasoning process that got you there in the first place. If you can recognize the obsessional reasoning process that got you there in the first place, then you can work your way backward to untangle that obsessional reasoning process so that you can get out of the OCD bubble.

And this is what inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, teaches you how to do. You learn all of these different pieces. You learn about the reasons for the obsessional doubt, the obsessional story, what going into the bubble is like, and then what are the doorways out of that bubble so that you can get back to what’s actually happening in the here and now.

When we look at salvation at a very basic level, God has a part, and we have a part. God is the main character, the major player in the story. We have a minor part in accepting the gift. Salvation is based on the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. It is not based on what we have done. It’s not based on what we did before we were saved. It’s not based on what we’ve done since we’ve been saved.

Ephesians 2:8 and 9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

If salvation is not based on earning God’s merit, then that means that we don’t need to strive for God’s love and approval. Our part of the equation, that’s very small, is to believe in what Jesus has done for us and to trust in the work of the cross of Christ.

Romans 10:9: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

This can be something that’s really hard for a lot of Christians with OCD to understand and accept. Salvation is not based on you and your behavior. Salvation is based on what God has done for us, and that’s a beautiful thing because if I can’t do anything to earn it, that also means that I’m not going to do something to mess it up.

If I am seeking God on a day-to-day basis, if I am involved and engaged with my faith, then you’re not just going to mysteriously, magically, somehow, maybe kind of walk away someday. That is a fear based in OCD and what OCD is telling you, all kinds of things that you’re going to lose your relationship with God, telling you that you’re going to walk away from the faith. It may tell you that you’re outside of the family of God, that you can’t really truly know if you’re saved. And understand that this OCD story, it comes with a lot of fear dumped on top of it. That fear makes the OCD story feel so real and so believable. But the problem is that it’s not. This is a lie, and you have to be able to identify, how in the world did I get into this reasoning process?

And I understand, as someone who grew up and felt like a lot of my sanctification, this process of becoming more like Christ, I thought this is all up to me and I’ve got to work really hard and I’ve got to check the boxes and I’ve got to do the right thing and I’ve got to be very conscientious. And I did all of that when I was younger and in my twenties. And you know what? It was exhausting.

Not only was it exhausting because there was so much effort that I felt like I was trying to put forth, there really wasn’t joy in my spiritual practices. And what I learned when life hit me on the backside and I went through suffering and came to a different understanding and realization of who God is and my relationship with Him, I recognized that if I can’t save myself, then I also don’t have that ability to do all this effort to make myself more like Christ. That has to be a partnership between me and the Holy Spirit as I am daily surrendering to God’s work in my life, as I am denying myself and taking up my cross every single day.

So I want to tell you that our salvation is not based on feelings, that you may or may not feel close to God right now. That doesn’t affect the truth of the situation, that you are saved based on what Jesus did in dying for you on the cross. You may feel like God isn’t there or God has abandoned you, but I want you to hear that He loves you very much and went all the way to give His Son for us in order to have a relationship with us. If that doesn’t speak volumes to you, I don’t know what will.

I think, unfortunately, we have become so desensitized to this salvation story, and we know all the quote-right answers as Christians. The joke is that the Sunday school answer is always Jesus. Whatever the question is, the Sunday school answer is, “It’s Jesus.” And so we can recite to ourselves, “Well, I know salvation is through grace, and I know Jesus died on the cross for me.” And then there’s this gigantic “but”—I’m emphasizing that word. It’s like, “But I feel…” is usually what comes next, or, “But I have this thought…” to that such-and-such. And you really have to do some work, and I encourage you to do some work, to unravel that thought process, unravel that feeling process, figure out where that story has come from.

And I’ve talked about this before, but oftentimes we’re putting things on God that we have received from other people in our life, or we are putting this perspective of who God is based on maybe some harsh church teachings that you might have experienced, judgmental believers in the church. There are all kinds of different ways that our view of God is formed. Most early and often, it’s our parents and how they respond to us, how they respond to us emotionally, how they respond to us in discipline situations, and then how they speak to us about God. And that certainly affects how we view God.

The last thing that I want to talk with you about is this concept that I’ve been rolling around in my mind that I refer to as spiritual sense data. Now, ICBT tells us that we have a variety of senses that we use in our environment on a normal everyday, day-to-day basis. So we have our five senses, we have our common sense, we have this sense of self, the real person who we really are. We also have internal senses. Those would be things like beliefs, desires, feelings, emotions. And if we are able to tune into all of these senses and trust those senses, that helps you get out of the trap of OCD, get out of that thought spiral.

I really believe that as believers, we have a sense of spiritual sense data if we have the Holy Spirit inside of us, in that Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. This is what Romans 8:15 through 17 says: “For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.” That’s awesome right there. “And if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.”

And that means that we’ve all had some type of experience where our spirit has connected with God’s Spirit. And I would encourage you to really not distrust those experiences that you have. Maybe it’s been a while because OCD has been so loud since you’ve had one of those spiritual experiences. Maybe it’s been a long time ago, but you were out in nature somewhere, or by a beach, or in a worship service, and you really felt the presence of God, or you had some type of spiritual peace or reassurance that God was with you. Maybe it was in a time of deep suffering and you were sorrowfully crying out to God, but God gave you, not all the answers to your problems, but just a sense of presence or a sense of peace.

And understand, I’m saying not all things are about feelings, but if you have these points in your life that I would call anchor points, I would encourage you to tap in and really remember those. Sit with those experiences from a full sensory level. And when you’re able to do that, I think that’s going to help you know that you belong to Christ.

We also know that there is a fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And look, nobody has all of those things all the time. If we were perfect, if we had all the fruit of the Spirit all the time, we must be in heaven. That doesn’t exist on earth. But there are probably some of those things that you can identify. Look, I have become a more loving person since I became a Christian. Due to knowing Christ, I am a more patient person than I would be without Him. There is more kindness flowing out of me than there would be if I didn’t know Jesus. I think you may be able to see certain experiences in your life and say, okay, that’s something, that’s sense data that I can lean into, that shows that I love the Lord.

If you are having spiritual obsessions, the idea that this is something that you value, that OCD attacks, that it attacks your faith because it’s something that’s important to you, and if you’re just constantly wrestling with all of these doubts, I want you to know that there is hope, that there is healing, that I am going to continue to spread these messages that you can receive really great treatment that incorporates your faith, where you don’t feel like you have to either choose therapy or your faith.

If you’re struggling to find a strong Christian counselor in your area, I really encourage you to look into Empowered Mind. This is a course that I have for Christians that’ll teach you ICBT principles from a Christian faith lens. And if that’s something that would be helpful or beneficial to you, you can go to carriebock.com/training to find out more information.

Thank you so much for listening. Please stay tuned with us. Next week, I have an interview with a dear friend, and we’re going to be talking about when the suffering won’t end. He has been living with terminal cancer for seven years, and I think he’s just a wealth of godly wisdom for you. And we’re going to apply it to OCD, and I think you’re going to take a lot out of that episode.

212.  Pt 1: Why Scrupulosity is so Complicated and Hard to Treat

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

As we continue the Scrupulosity Series, Carrie unpacks the hidden layers that make religious OCD uniquely complex, especially when spiritual doubt, fear of sin, and confusion about God’s character get tangled in the OCD cycle.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why scrupulosity (religious OCD) is more complex than other OCD themes and why it often feels harder to treat
  • How church culture and biblical counseling can unintentionally reinforce the OCD cycle
  • Why reassurance about salvation, sin, or blasphemy can actually make scrupulosity worse
  • How mental health stigma in Christian spaces delays proper OCD treatment
  • The difference between intrusive thoughts, temptation, and actual sin from a biblical perspective
  • How black-and-white theology and fear-based thinking keep religious OCD stuck

Episode Summary:

Have you ever wondered why scrupulosity feels harder to untangle than other types of OCD? Not just distressing or intrusive, but deeply personal. Like it’s wrapped around your faith, your salvation, and your relationship with God in a way that makes everything feel higher stakes.

When I sat down to record this episode, I truly thought I could cover it all in one sitting. I couldn’t. There are too many layers. So we’re taking this in two parts.

If you’ve been feeling stuck or confused about why this struggle feels so intense, I think this conversation is going to bring some clarity.

Why Does Scrupulosity Feel Different From Other OCD Themes?

On paper, OCD follows similar reasoning patterns across themes. But when it attaches itself to your faith, it hits differently.

You’re not just afraid of being wrong. You’re afraid of sinning. You’re afraid of losing your salvation. You’re afraid of disappointing God.

That spiritual weight changes everything. And it’s one of the reasons scrupulosity feels uniquely heavy.

Why Do Christians With Scrupulosity Go to Pastors First?

Because the fears sound spiritual.

If you’re thinking, “What if I blasphemed?” or “What if I’m not truly saved?” of course you’re going to seek spiritual guidance. That makes sense.

But what if what you’re experiencing isn’t primarily a spiritual problem?

What if it’s OCD attaching itself to the thing you value most?

That distinction matters more than you may realize.

Can Reassurance Make Scrupulosity Worse?

This one is tender.

Reassurance feels comforting in the moment. But if the doubt keeps coming back, if the relief doesn’t last, if you find yourself asking the same question in slightly different ways, that may not be weak faith.

It may be the OCD cycle strengthening itself.

Understanding that changes how we approach healing.

Is Taking Medication for OCD a Lack of Faith?

I hear this concern more than you might think.

Some believers quietly carry shame about therapy or medication, wondering if it means they’re not trusting God enough.

But you can love Jesus deeply and still need professional support. Sometimes God’s provision shows up through doctors, therapists, and medication. That doesn’t make you less spiritual. It makes you human.

Why Do Intrusive Thoughts Feel Like Sin?

Scrupulosity blends categories in painful ways.

A thought feels like an action. A temptation feels like a moral failure. A doubt feels like proof.

But having a thought is not the same thing as choosing it.

And learning to separate those pieces is a huge part of healing.

Press play and join me for this conversation.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife, and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

So what’s the deal? Why is scrupulosity so complicated, so hard to treat? I’ve said before that the obsessional reasoning process is the same, and so it doesn’t really matter what theme that you have. Inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy, or ICBT, will work for you. However, I’d like to somewhat revise my statements on this because even though ICBT can work for all themes of OCD, scrupulosity, I’ve realized, is a whole other animal. There are so many different layers of complexity to this that we really need to talk about—challenges that people run into when they’re trying to get help for scrupulosity, as well as challenges therapists might run into who are trying to help people struggling with scrupulosity.

I’ve come up with several points.

Number one is the lack of awareness in churches and biblical counseling circles that leads to a delay in clinical treatment for scrupulosity. This is a huge issue because most people see this as a spiritual problem. They’re going to seek a spiritual solution first. That just makes sense. They’re gonna go to a pastor, a ministry leader, a biblical counselor, and say, “Hey, I’m wrestling with this issue. I’m afraid maybe I’ve blasphemed. I’m afraid maybe that secretly I’m really a Pharisee. I’m a wolf in sheep’s clothing that the Bible is talking about. I think maybe I’ve lost my salvation.” All of these different ruminations that Christians who are struggling with scrupulosity have.

Unfortunately, many people still have this idea in their head of OCD that it’s like Monk and they’re all germaphobes, or they all have color-coordinated closets. And we really need to do more education within the church. We had a podcast episode that I did with Rachel Kuku Woodward on what I wish pastors knew about OCD. Please share that with your pastor, your ministry leader, deacons in your church. We would love to get that information out there because people need to know what religious OCD looks like.

Oftentimes they don’t know what religious OCD looks like, and some of these issues can be common spiritual doubts among people that don’t have OCD. There is a delay in seeking care. What happens is people will go to these individuals for reassurance. They’ll receive some reassurance, but of course it doesn’t stick. So then the person is coming back and is even more distressed and more upset. Or maybe they’re ruminating about a completely different spiritual issue the next time. So it doesn’t occur to the person that’s talking to them that this is what OCD looks like.

I have gotten to the point where I shudder a little bit when someone with OCD tells me that they’re going to biblical counseling. Now some of you are like, “Carrie, I know that you’re a Christian and I know that you read the Bible and love the Lord. So why would you say that? Are you anti-biblical counseling?” No, I’m not anti-biblical counseling. I think it has its place. I think it might be really helpful for someone that’s, for example, trying to figure out how to emulate a godly marriage according to the Bible. Maybe they didn’t have good examples of that, or maybe they just didn’t grow up in a church that was teaching about how to be a godly wife or how to be a godly husband. Maybe it could be really great for people who are needing to deal with forgiveness. They find themselves having a lot of bitterness or a lot of anger towards things that have happened to them that they wanna deal with on a spiritual level and forgive people. I went through some of that work in college. It was amazing and incredibly helpful for me.

So I think there is a place for biblical counseling—not when it comes to OCD treatment. The reason for that is because 97 out of a hundred times, that person is going to said biblical counselor who doesn’t have any knowledge about OCD, how to treat OCD, and that person is just providing reassurance or co-ruminating with the individual with OCD, which is only strengthening the process, once again delaying treatment and causing the OCD to strengthen and get worse. Think about this for a minute. Someone is gonna get help and the help they’re seeking is actually making them sicker. This has gotta stop. We have to educate and coordinate our faith communities as therapists and be working arm in arm together to help support people in the best way possible—spiritually, mentally, emotionally, medically.

Number two, scrupulosity is really complicated and hard to treat because there are all kinds of different views about mental health and medication in the church today. Now I believe that we have come a long way. I am very hopeful. The reason I’m hopeful is because when I started this podcast over five years ago now, there was just very, very little to nothing in regards to Christianity and OCD. Now that has changed. There have been more personal stories that people have written or shared, knowledge that is coming to the forefront. But I searched, I dug down in the Google search, and I just didn’t have resources. And that’s one of the reasons that I’m here talking about this with you guys, because I became very burdened that there’s nothing that’s clinically sound and biblically sound mixed together.

I was hearing from too many Christians that they were just getting the easy kind of answers, the pat answers in the church. “You know, you just really need to pray about this more, and if you just trusted God with that. I mean, just let it go. Just trust God. You know, if you have enough faith, God will move the mountains for you.” All of these things are not particularly helpful when someone is in an immense state of suffering.

And of course, it’s helpful to pray. Of course, it’s helpful to read your Bible. But if we have somebody who’s up in debt, up to their eyeballs, we’re not just gonna throw them a Bible, say a prayer for them, and walk away. I hope you wouldn’t do that if they came to you for help and said, “Hey, I’m in debt up to my eyeballs. I’m struggling.” I hope that you would be like, “Hey, can we find you a financial counselor? Maybe somebody that can sit down with you and look at what you owe, look at your interest rates, find a pathway out of this if that’s something that you’re willing to do.” Most people who are in really bad shape like that can’t get out on their own.

And so the same thing with mental health struggles. If someone is coming to you and they have a severe medical problem like diabetes or cancer, of course we’re gonna pray for that person. Of course, we’re gonna maybe send them encouraging scriptures. We’re not just gonna leave it at that. We’re gonna say, “Hey, what is your doctor saying? What’s the plan? What does the treatment plan look like? How is your diet? How are other things going on in your life?” We wanna really care about people at a deep level and meet them where they are and help them meet their needs.

But somehow when it comes to mental health in the church, we’ve got this idea that we should be able to throw some kind of Jesus Band-Aid on a gaping wound and that that should be fine. “Well, Jesus is all you really need,” and just move forward.

Wisdom comes from God. James 1:5 says if we ask God for wisdom, that he’s gonna give it to us. And sometimes that comes from scripture. Sometimes that comes from the Holy Spirit speaking to you. But many times it also comes through other believers, through people who can speak truth into your life or knowledge that maybe they have received educationally that they can then pass on to you. God calls us as Christians to live in community.

If you talk to anyone who has been through an addiction and has become sober for any length of time, they will probably tell you that there was some type of community involvement that helped them in that process. Typically, people don’t just stay in their bedroom and get sober and shut the whole world out. Typically, they’re involved in some type of support group, or they have some type of mentorship happening or sponsorship happening, because we need other people. Sometimes it takes this huge level of humility to be able to say, “You know what? I need help.”

And when somebody is coming to us in the church with immense emotional burdens—we can see that it’s affecting them physically. Maybe they physically look super tense, fidgety. Their voice is shaking when you’re talking to them. They’re crying all the time. We need to be able to support them in getting the professional help that they need, whatever that looks like. I think unfortunately, many churches have dropped the ball on this and haven’t provided encouragement or referrals to professionals.

I wanna say a few words about taking medication. I’m not a doctor, so this is coming from a therapist, but I sincerely believe that you can have Jesus, love the Lord, take medication, and go to therapy, and that those things are not in opposition to each other. Sometimes people in the church feel like, “Oh, if I take medication somehow that’s a sign of weak faith.” It’s not.

I love what Tiffany S. says in her book Anxious with Jesus. She talks about praying while taking your medication, and just this combination of allowing God to use the resources that we have and understanding and elevating him as the ultimate healer. JP Moreland wrote a book called Finding Quiet, where he talks about taking medication for anxiety as a believer, and I believe that’s a really great explanation for anyone out there. I would love to get in touch with him. So if you happen to be buds with JP Moreland, I’ve tried to reach out to him via his website, I think, and really haven’t been able to get in touch with him. So if you are a networker, connector, I’d love to have him on the podcast. You can share this with him.

You’re not less spiritual for taking antidepressants any more than you’re less spiritual for taking chemo drugs or less spiritual for taking diabetes medicine. Let’s say it louder for the people in the back. Okay? We have to really get this sunk deep down into our psyches that it’s okay to take these medications, especially when you are in the midst of treatment and really trying to learn new skills. You’re struggling, it’s hard, or you’ve just gone through a really rough bout where your symptoms have become more severe. Don’t be afraid. Talk to your doctor. Talk to a psychiatrist. Utilize these things as resources.

I really encourage you, if you have OCD, to look into the FDA-approved medications for OCD because sometimes doctors get a little wild and just start prescribing various antidepressants. And so if they are prescribing something that’s not on that list, I would just say, “Hey, what is your thought process behind that? I’m just really curious. I did my research and I noticed that these were the medications that were FDA-approved specifically for OCD.”

Point number three is that the American Christian church has a really unhealthy relationship with thoughts and feelings in general. I know that is a very broad statement, but it’s something that I’ve seen over and over in my work, where there’s almost this subtle idea that we’re having to fight all the time with our thoughts and feelings. And how much energy does that take? That consumes a lot of energy—trying to fight with these things that are natural, that we all deal with and we all have to face at one point or another.

It’s much easier to take a more flat mindfulness approach of like, okay, it’s here. I may not like it, but I still have to figure out, okay, now that it’s here, I can either acknowledge it’s here or deny that it’s here. If I deny that it’s here, it’s still gonna be there and I’m still gonna have to deal with it at some point or another. It’s gonna keep coming back up and keep bugging me.

I think there’s this emphasis in the church to do one of two things: either to take our thoughts and feelings super seriously and put a lot of energy into them, or to deny them completely. And either is an issue. We have to find a balance point, a middle ground.

So if we’re putting too much emphasis on thoughts, it’s like bad thoughts have to be feared. We have to watch every little thing that comes into our mind. “You have to watch your thoughts because your thoughts will become your behavior.” That is not always the case. There are lots of things—trust me, I do not have OCD—but I’ll tell you, there are lots of things that come into my head that I do not act on. I’m like, “That is a really bad idea right now. Do not do that.”

This is why we have filters in our mind of past experiences, of things that we’re like, “Okay, if I do A, I know B is probably going to happen, and so I’m gonna not do A, even though I may really wanna do that right now.” I may really want to get defensive in this argument, but I know that it’s just gonna continue the argument and cause more relationship problems. I may really wanna scream right now because somebody is not listening to what I’m saying, but I’m gonna stop. I’m gonna walk away. I’m gonna take five deep breaths, come back, try this situation again.

Could you imagine if you acted on every thought that you had? How many of you have had a thought this week that said, “I don’t wanna do this,” and what if you acted on that thought? Even today, I’ve been recovering from a cold. I still am dealing with some sinus issues. I was losing my voice earlier this week and I said, “You know, I just am not sure that I wanna record this podcast episode.” Yet here I am recording because it’s important, because I wanna talk to you, because I know that if I don’t do it this week, it’s gonna get pushed off to next week and then I’ll have more to do next week. All of these things can go through my mind. They’re being filtered through my values at that point. And my values say, “Hey, even though we don’t feel like it right now, we’re still gonna show up and do the thing.”

You may feel that same way about work. There may be times where you do not wanna play with your children because you’re exhausted, but you still do it because you know it’s important and you wanna connect with them. Just think about that last time that you really thought, “I’m not sure I wanna do this,” and you did it anyway. See, you acted against a thought that you had.

When we overemphasize our thoughts, we may get really stuck on taking every thought captive, really having to activate quite a bit and do something about these thoughts. I talked with someone recently who was a former pastor who dealt with OCD, and he said, “Man, the pastor told me to take every thought captive. That just ruined me.” Now we have a whole podcast episode on that. You can go back and listen to it another time of what it means for OCD.

What happens when you overemphasize or place greater meaning onto thoughts than they really need to have in OCD is that it only makes them stronger. It only makes them come back more. If you’re trying to suppress thoughts, if you’re trying to neutralize them—like, “Hey, I’m gonna think of a positive memory because I just had a harm OCD thought. I’m gonna try to neutralize it with a positive memory”—rebuking thoughts, those types of things only make them come back more and more and make the OCD worse.

It seems to somewhat conflict with maybe some things that you’ve been taught in church. One thing I find particularly helpful is this concept from metacognitive therapy that says thoughts are like buses or like trains or subway cars—however you wanna think about it. Let’s say that thought bus comes along. You get to decide whether or not you are getting on that bus and continuing that thought direction or not. Or you can say, “You know what? I’m gonna let that bus pass by.” I’m not gonna get on there because if I get on that bus, it may lead me down this road that’s gonna take me to anxiety, intense fear, depression.

If I’m just ruminating on my past mistakes all the time, it’s gonna lead me to a sad place, and you know that. Obviously, if you have OCD, I’m not saying that this process is easy—to just detach from your thoughts. But the idea is that at some level we do have a choice of what we do with these thoughts as they come up. You may not have the choice of what bus decides to drive by. You may have lots of intrusive thoughts and you’re like, “Hey, I didn’t call for that taxi,” or, “I don’t wanna be at this bus stop where all these buses are trying to pick me up.” But you can decide whether or not you wanna continue on that bus.

Some people see any type of negative thought or temptation as sin. Having a negative thought is not automatically a sin. Having a tempting thought, such as a sexual thought, is not automatically sin. Once again, you get to decide what to do with that thought. You get to decide whether or not you’re gonna continue to go down that road of, “Oh, I had a lustful thought and I’m gonna give in to that and continue to visualize,” for example, versus, “No, I’m gonna disconnect from that and turn my eyes away. Leave that thought alone.” Temptation is not the same as sin, and that’s really important for us to wrap our minds around.

Those types of things can get easily blended in scrupulosity. So I’m blending being attracted to someone and lusting. Those are two different things. You have to be able to separate that out in order to work through it. Or I’m blending, “Hey, I just had a sexual tempting thought,” versus, “Oh no, now I feel like I’ve sinned and I have to confess and do all of these things.” Or, “I had some type of selfish thought and now I have to jump on that and automatically confess it.” Just be very careful about some of those things. Being able to recognize when you’re blending is super important.

In terms of thoughts, there’s a tendency to reinforce black-and-white thinking over certain theological issues. For example, the non-essentials can all of a sudden become essentials that people get really stuck on. Examples of this: Which denomination do I need to be a part of or follow? Scrupulosity will have you going round and round on that one. I talked to a person many years back, I believe, who said this just kind of had consumed all areas of their life because one of the denominations they were looking at was pretty strict and rigid in terms of what you could and couldn’t wear, how you dressed, how you did makeup, those types of things, what you ate. So everything in their whole life just felt really restricted. A lot of confusion over that.

I’ve had somebody reach out not too long ago asking about denominations and things of that nature. Scrupulosity can get really stuck on things that are non-essentials and see them as black or white, like there must be one that’s right. Somehow, if I follow this denomination, it must be right. That means that this one is wrong. “Oh no, my friend’s a part of that denomination. What does that mean? Does that mean that they’re not following Jesus right?”

We have to remember to keep the main things the main things. We’re about following Christ. We’re about spiritual practices that are going to get us closer to Jesus. That’s pretty simple: love God, love other people. That’s what we’ve boiled the first two greatest commandments down to, right?

I’ve had people stuck on Calvinism versus Arminianism. The problem is that you can find YouTube videos or reels on Instagram where people are gonna be speaking very strongly in one direction or another. “We’re right. We’re the Calvinists and we’re right, and here’s the scriptures to prove it.” Then the Arminians are over on the other side going, “We’re Arminians and we’re right, and here’s the scripture to prove it.” This creates a lot of confusion, obviously, for people with scrupulosity.

When we have this type of black-and-white thinking in a church, I think it’s much more balanced to be able to say, “Okay, what are the actual essential things? What are the non-essentials? About the non-essentials, some people believe this and some people believe that. One person isn’t necessarily right or wrong.” We’ve got to let go of some of the black-and-white thinking on the non-essential issues.

Let’s talk for a moment about feelings and either paying too much attention to our feelings or not enough attention to our feelings in the church. I’ve seen both sides of this. A lot of times younger people—teens, young adults—go through this. I remember going through something like this. It’s like, “I don’t feel close to God. What does that mean? If I don’t feel him right now and I’m in this worship service and everybody just seems to feel God and I don’t feel him, and I don’t feel like he loves me.” We’re just way too feeling-absorbed at that point because feelings aren’t everything.

I love my husband and sometimes I feel very close to him. But if I wake up tomorrow and I don’t feel close to him, I still love him. I’m still gonna do things to care for him. I’m still gonna ask him about his day, how he’s doing. I’m still gonna tell him I love him even though I may not have all these warm, fuzzy feelings inside. The same thing is true with God. There are some times where you may feel really close to God, but you can love God and not necessarily have all the warm fuzzies. We’re not gonna have those all of the time. Not all of life or all of spirituality is a mountaintop-type experience. You’re gonna go through some valleys in your life. You’re gonna go through some struggles and some wrestlings. All of that is very normal. All of it’s very biblical. Go read the Psalms.

There were times where David was on a high—defeating his enemies, life’s good, God’s good, everything’s awesome. Then you flip a couple Psalms later and he’s like, “God, where are you? What’s going on? Why are my enemies triumphing over me?” We have to find a more balanced view of our feelings and know that they can’t just dictate and rule our life and spirituality.

On the flip side, I’ve also heard statements in churches like, “Well, you just have to fight your feelings with faith. It’s not all about your feelings. You just gotta speak the truth and move forward, and it doesn’t really matter how you feel.” That’s completely on the opposite extreme. That’s in a different ditch on the side of the road. Two ditches on the side of the road. One, we’re completely all about our feelings and absorbed in them. The other is we’re just like, “No, gotta fight those. They’re not godly.”

God has created us in his image. God is an emotional being. Therefore, we are emotional beings. We’re not perfect, so we do not always handle our emotions in a perfect and holy way. But part of our sanctification process is learning how to manage these emotions as they come up. I really do believe that. God can use emotions in our life to connect us with other people in intimacy and close relationships, and I think that is very important.

I don’t think that we need to fight our feelings with faith because I don’t believe they’re in opposition to our faith. Even if I feel not close to God or I feel abandoned by him or I feel like he doesn’t care about what’s happening in my life, that’s a great and golden opportunity for me to then bring those feelings back to God and say, “Hey, here’s what I’m feeling. What’s going on? I don’t feel like you care about this.” God can handle all of those things. Typically, when you get all of that out, by the end you feel better and you remember, okay, I’m not in control of this. God is in control. Somehow things are gonna work out for my good and it’s gonna be okay.

I am encouraged and I hope that we can grow in this process with the church of having a healthier understanding, a more balanced relationship with our thoughts and feelings—where we don’t feel like we have to pounce on every bad thought, where we don’t feel like we have to shove down feelings that we don’t think align with God, that we can ultimately experience these things without being ruled by them. We don’t have to be ruled by our thoughts or ruled by our emotions. We can recognize that these thoughts, feelings, and body sensations are there. They’re a part of our experience. Ultimately, we’re making choices. Those things may inform our choices at times, and that’s not always a bad thing.

Sometimes you may have a feeling that you really need to pay attention to. If your body is in pain, if it’s sending you a signal that you are physically in pain, you probably need to pay attention to that. I think the same is true with emotional pain. There’s some kind of healing that God wants to do in your life. If we just ignore that emotional pain and we say, “No, I have faith. God is good. Everything’s fine,” then we miss out on that opportunity for God to do that deeper-level emotional work in our life and for us to receive that healing from him.

Join me back next week as I continue this conversation on why scrupulosity is so complicated and hard to treat. If you love Jesus and are struggling with scrupulosity, I would love for you to check out the resources on my website. We’d love to have you join our weekly newsletter. I put out one a week. You get it every Wednesday morning. Not only do we tell you about what podcast episode is coming out, but I really strive to make that valuable. I tell you some stories about things that God is teaching me in my life and how I see some of those things relating to the struggle of walking the Christian walk, and tie that into how it applies to OCD. So I’d love to have you hang out with us reading the newsletter.

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Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.