Tag: Author

70. Mental Health in the African American Community with Dr. Nicholas Grier

Written by Carrie Bock on May 25, 2022. Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 70. Mental Health in the African American Community with Dr. Nicholas Grier

Dr. Nicolas Grier is an Associate Professor of Practical Theology, Spiritual Care, & Counseling. Dr. Grier is also a mental health therapist and author.

How do churches minister to the mental health of Black men
The stigma surrounding mental health and receiving help in Black Community
Common struggles that black men are facing today
Early beginnings of Black Psychology
Dr. Grier’s view on APA’s formal apology to people of color in promoting, perpetuating, and failing to challenge racism.
Dr. Grier’s Book, Care for the Mental and Spiritual Health of Black Men

Links and Resources:

https://nicholasgrier.com/

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Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope For Anxiety and OCD episode 70. Today on the show, I have an interview with Dr. Nicholas Grier, an ordained minister and therapist and author of The Care For The Mental and Spiritual Health of black men. He’s gonna talk with us about mental health in the black community. One of the things I really value is hearing from people who have other lived experiences or cultural backgrounds that I don’t possess to try and I guess understand where different people are coming from because I see all different types of clients and it helps me to be able to empathize with others. So let’s go ahead and dive into this interview.

I know that I had talked with you earlier that this particular episode was kind of prompted by something a close friend of mine said in an earlier episode, episode nine, actually. And I was asking her about her experience with mental health in the African American church. And she said, “well, you know, the pastors in those churches are like ostriches, and they just have their head buried in the sand, they don’t wanna look at their own issues”. And so I really thought, okay, there’s somebody in this community that understands mental health that we could talk to and really combine those two worlds. And I thought it would be awesome to provide an alternate perspective that was her lived experience. And so I was glad that she shared that, but I’m just curious, has it been a challenge for you. Since you work with churches to know how to minister to the mental health of black men?

Dr. Nicholas: That’s an excellent question and observation. The first thing I consider is the fact that there are a number of black churches, right? so there’s a.

Carrie: Sure.

Dr. Nicholas: Diversity of black congregations. And so from that perspective, I think we have to go into that question, realizing that, like there are different ways that your various clergy, respond to this, very same question.

So for instance, last summer, I was working with a number of clergy on the south side of Chicago with a grant that really focused on this very thing that you’re talking about, you know, so the mental wellbeing of clergy on the south side of Chicago, and most of them were African American. There were, you know, 40, 50 clergy who were part of this program. And so from my experience in that program. In administering that grant. My goodness that the clergy were more than willing to dive into, their own, you know, experiences with, the heavy load that many of them carry the emotions, the psychological burdens that are placed on them.

So I think when we think about response to this question, we have to think about, okay, who are the specific black congregations and black clergy that we’re talking about? Because my experience, especially recently, there’s a lot of openness from, you know, black clergy really saying that, “Hey, this is something urgent that we need to reflect on”. So not only was that a particular experience that I’ve had with clergy, but most recently there’s another denomination. That’s also, you know, asking me to work with them on developing a program to help their clergy deal with the mental health experiences.

Now, I think part of that is also who do clergy feel like they can trust specifically who do black clergy. Well, they can trust. So, so I realize that perhaps have maybe a little bit of an inside edge, if you will, just to take very seriously the experiences of clergy. So from this perspective, because I am an ordained clergy, cause I also happen to have a PhD and a licensed professional counselor. Well, they tend to trust me, in that sense. But I think part of that too is the ways in which I try to engage them. So I engage them with a lot of respect, deep appreciation for who they are. So I think all those things affect how we think about mental health and black faith communities.

Carrie: Sure. And obviously, if you’ve already been there and had some of that lived experience of ministering in the church, that’s huge. So in the counseling community, we’re always like working really hard to reduce the stigma surrounding mental health and receiving help. Do you believe that black people face more challenging stigma to receiving mental health services? I don’t know for example, in the past I’ve had someone share with me that it felt very punitive for them almost like you’re gonna to therapy, but it was kind of like a punishment like you’re kid that’s in trouble and you’re going to therapy now. And it just, wasn’t a positive experience for that, for that individual who was in the black community.

Dr. Nicholas: Well, I’d be curious to know more about that person’s experience. And you know, this to me is, you know, back to my emphasis on focusing on particular situations. And so each situation has its own nuances. And my sense, when I think about a type of situation like this is. That there are a number of, I think, complexities that one must engage. When we think about how do we, address the experiences, that the emotional, mental, and psychological experiences of black folks going to therapy. So in one sense now, which is one of the reasons why I’m so passionate about the work of coloring mental health collective, which is organization.

I started that advocates and organizes for the mental well-being of black and brown people. One of the things we’re passionate about with that work is to say that, “Hey you can tell a black person to go to therapy”. But if they’re going to therapy with a therapist, who’s practicing out of theories and Ideologies that actually perpetuate colonization racism and things that sort, without them even being aware of that, then that can actually be very detrimental to the black person going to therapy.

So in actuality, they’re actually worse off for going to therapy. If they have someone who’s not practicing out of theories and ideology, that’s actually helpful for black people. So this is why I’m so passionate about reflecting on how can we help equip clinicians with theories and practices that actually nurture the holistic wellbeing of black and brown folks. So this can be done by taking very seriously, you know, for instance, the literature of black psychology of womanness in Mahata psychologies, right? So there are a number of resources that a clinicians can use. So I think that’s part of what’s at stake in this type of situation, when a person says, okay, feels are punitive when I’m going into therapy.

Well, I mean, my experience at doing therapy with black folks is that they often like wanna meet multiple times a week and even want to go over the sessions. I mean, in my view, it’s because. They feel respected, they feel understood. And it’s not all just having to explain my reality, to someone else.

Carrie: And I think that we’ve come a long way from original psychology in its infancy was a bunch of white European men. And now we have a lot more diversity in the counseling community as a whole. We have a lot more people of color. A lot more people of different ethnic origins and backgrounds. And that helps a lot with people being able to find someone that they can relate to, that they feel like, this person’s really gonna get it. And they’re really gonna have that level of like cultural sensitivity to their work.

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely. And you know, I was just inviting womanist, pastor theologians and therapists to a class. So I’m teaching a woman is pastor theology and spiritual care class where I teach at Clare Osteology. And one of the things that was significant. So Dr. pH shepherd was the person who came to visit us and she teaches at Vanderbilt. And she was just naming that when she, teaches her students about, you know, women as pastor or theologies and womanist psychologies, she’s like the things that we’re contributing, like these are not necessarily brand new. In other words, she was naming that even before like certain books and certain academic fields. There were actually black women writing of.

Carrie: Wow.

Dr. Nicolas: About psychology, right? And about, you know, spirituality. So just because psychology came into existence as like this Western Eurocentric male-centric field, that was not the beginning of human psychology.

Carrie: Right. No makes sense.

Dr. Nicholas: You know, it actually existed before then. And so, when we realized that the fact that, even if we take a very seriously a, you know, African traditions and indigenous African traditions, a lot of these traditions were oral traditions and things that were passed down. And so there’s a lot of diverse types of wisdom that we can pull from whether it’s from the oral traditions or even like the other written works that don’t get highlighted in traditional psychology.

Carrie: So you’re really feeling like there’s more of an openness in the black community towards mental health, more openness, maybe towards clergy to be talking about mental health and how can we apply these things to ourselves to be healthier clergy, but also how can we help the people in our congregations be healthier?

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely. I think a lot of it’s trust. I mean, I’ve been clergy in the local church setting. I’ve worked with clergy in the local church setting. I know very well, the suspicion, and I would say a healthy suspicion, oftentimes that black folks have of, you know white, if they’re not centered in a deliberative practice. I mean, they can sniff it out just like that. And so when you have clergy, for instance, who are trained in, you know, like liberation theology, being a type of theology that takes very seriously that systemically marginalized and that systemically oppressed and tries to nurture their wellbeing. I mean, I, I can think about the work of Howard Thurman. Who asked the question? What does the religion of Jesus have to say to those who love where their backs against the wall? And so when you’re doing ministry and theology from this vantage point as a black clergy person, well you wanna make sure that a therapist you go to is also reflecting on, how can I conduct therapy in such a way that helps people who are living with their backs against the wall?

Carrie: What are some common struggles that you see black men facing today?

Dr. Nicholas: The struggles that I see again, I guess I wanna repeat the thing that these are diverse struggles, right?

Carrie: Sure.

Dr. Nicholas: There’s a difference. In other words, there’s a lot of variation within black communities. You know, no one black man is alike. And so I, I think it’s important to honor that, but then also when I think about some of the common themes that I’ve seen with black men, even as I wrote my book on the mental and spiritual health of black men. A lot of these things, get back to what I name as like, the social pathology. In other words, what’s wrong with society? What’s the dysfunction in society? I mean, a lot of Western individual psychology looks at the pathology as individualistically based. They point, even when you look at the DSM. It’s always ask Okay. What, what disorder does this one person have? Part of what I wanna ask is what disorder does society have? That causes a black man to struggle mentally and emotionally as they might.

So from that perspective, I think there’s a lot of ways in which black men experience people, looking at them as if they’re not educated as if they’re criminals, as if they’re dumb as if their ultimate destination is to be locked up or, you know, killed by police. Or if they’re going to be successful by being some type of entertainer, whether it’s, you know, an athlete, visual artist, musician, you know, rapper, things of that sort. So these are all things, themes that came out of the interviews of black men, that I put in my book of The Care for the Mental and Spiritual Health of black men. I, I think when we realize that these are common things, you realize these are significant odds. So, so this gets back to the whole concept in psychology of projection and projective identification.

So one of the questions I asked black men in my book was what does society say about you and what does society think about black men? What is the ultimate life destination that society sees for black men? And that’s when they responded with all of those things that I named in terms of naming that, you know, black men, that society sees black men as criminals bugs as, you know, savages, as people to be feared, devalued, discredited folks who are not known by society, unless we actually take time to have conversations like this. Right? So, so it’s almost like as a black man, even though I’m a person like I’m a professor, I have a, you know, PhD minister, all these things. I often have to like, earn my way, even having these things.

I have to earn my way to be received by someone as something who actually is this person, as opposed to whatever thing they have in their imagination of who I am. And so when you realize that there’s so much resistance, that that has to go on in a black man’s life, you know, in other words, I’m having to, and black men are having to resist these negative projections that society has of us. Right? And so, when I look at the various psychological theories I studied, which is one of the reasons why I decided to write my own theory for the mental and spiritual the black men was because I noticed that when I was in graduate school, you know, studying psychology, a lot of these theories when they talked about these are the things you need to be. Well, psychologically, whether some of them talked about it from the perspective of everyone has like, you know, mirroring needs. Everyone has idealization needs. Everyone has these needs to be safe and all these things, I mean, these are all good and well, but they weren’t even talking about the specific things that black men face.

So this is why I think that when we realize all these things that black men face, we have to then take a step back and say, “okay, there are some additional things because of the realities of racism, sex, and classism in black men’s life”. One of the things that black men need to be able to do is to resist on a continual basis. All these negative projections. But then a part of that means that because we’re resisting so much in our lives, we also need to be able to experience mental and emotional healing on a consistent basis as well, because those negative projections keep coming our way.

Carrie: And I think being able to talk with someone who can really validate that, their lived experience of, okay, I’m feeling like I’m having to work harder or climb this extra mountain, just to be able to do the things that other people may be able to do easily, reputation-wise and things that you were talking about. I think that that’s really important in terms of just the therapeutic context of validating that. That those things are real, that people may look at you and it doesn’t matter that you’re well educated and you’re dressed nicely. They may assume you’re a drug dealer who, you know, because of their own preconceived notions that they have.

I found this interesting that it, it really just came out very recently prior to us recording this, that the American Psychological Association, it recently published a formal apology for their role in promoting perpetuating and failing to challenge racism, racial discrimination, and human hierarchy in the US. And I’m curious about your response to that article,

Dr. Nicholas: I’ll say, “yes”. I’m curious, what else that we want to reflect on from it?

Carrie: Do you feel like that, that’s been a long, like overdue statement that they made basically. I mean, cause they listed several different things. Just, you know, not taking into account marginalized populations. When we look at studies, sometimes the studies are not diverse. And then we’re trying to apply something that was not studied on people of color to people of color. For example, just some of those types of things. From your perspective as a black man, does it feel validating like, well, it’s about time.

They got around to that. Just what does that feel like for you?

Dr. Nicholas: That’s a very good point. The reason why I respond to that as I do is because there is a way that I would say people of color and certainly black people see it, you know, see this, apology and say, “okay”, well, you know, the response might be, I’m glad that that happened. And also we know that like our livelihood, our survival, our liberation, our flourishing is not, you know, predicated on whether or not we’re gonna get this apology, right?

We know that it may or may not happen. History has proven itself a black folks will go to the grave without getting a certain apology or reparations or things of that sort. So we’re not basing our livelihood, our survival and flourishing on whether or not certain groups apologize and give reparations. Now, of course we’ll strive for these things to happen, but we’re not waiting for that to happen in order for us to nurture our own wellbeing, an approach that many of us have. And I can think about groups that I’m a part of. Well, we organize within ourselves to nurture our own well being because we’re like, we know they may or may not get. But we know we have the wisdom, the genius within us to nurture our wellbeing. One of my amazing colleagues, and I will say, you know, she’s someone who I admire deeply because she’s the first black woman to have a full book. And woman is pastor theology and spiritual care. So this is Dr. Carol Watkins Ali. She wrote the book Survival and Liberation, which focuses on pastor or theology and pastoral counseling in the African American context.

One of the things that she said is if the trauma isn’t the DNA, then the healing is in the DNA. She talks a lot about, you know, black women, especially poor black women and saying that all of society will be better if we care deeply for poor black women, because a lot of our capitalism, the ways and we profit are built on the labor backs and suffering of poor black women. I, I think it’s very important to honor that. And so, when we take seriously the reality that folks who’ve experienced the trauma know very well of the experience of it and have the ability. If we nurture constructive self-reflection and ways to engage and respond to the suffering, then we ourselves can nurture our own wellbeing. And of course, there’s always room for allies in the struggle.

One of the things I’m clear about is that, you know, black folks not waiting on whoever to apologize to us, like we know we’ve got the power, we’ve got the ability, the wherewithal to nurture our own wellbeing. Even as we work with willing allies.

Carrie: And I think, definitely actions speak louder than words. And so it may take time for some of these things that you’re talking about for change to occur. Obviously, if you’re talking about things that have been going on for a while. Takes time to make changes.

Dr. Nicholas: Right.

Carrie: Tell us a little bit more about your book, The Care for the Mental and Spiritual Health of black men.

Dr. Nicholas: So, as I alluded to earlier, you know, I just got tired during my PhD program, seeing all these psychological theories, not, you know, fully addressing. Emotional psychological and spiritual experiences of black people in particular. And when you look at, you mentioned the early beginnings of psychology, even when you look at the early beginnings of black psychology, certainly a lot of it was focusing on the strengths of black people and, you know, how do we engage a strengths-based model instead of a deficit-based model, which is significant shift from how a person engage, you know, traditional Western therapy. So that’s been a part of black psychology, but a lot of the beginning of black psychology was about responding to what centric psychological theories were saying. So a lot of these early psychological theories and literature about black people about how black folks are less than, and you know how we’re so different from white people.

So then you have a lot of black psychologists coming along saying, “wait a minute, we need to respond to that”. Because that’s not true. We’re not less than white people inherently. And so when I look at the work that I do, I’m dishonored by those who came before me, because I’m only able to do what I’m able to do because of those who’ve paved a path.

In other words, if I came into existence at a point in time in human history where nobody had defended against this oppressive thought from early psychology about black people. Then, a lot of the tasks of my work primarily respond to these negative perceptions of black people by white psychology. And so, because you have so many folks who’ve come before me, who’ve already done that work. I then can develop an approach to counseling and mental health that, you know, stands on their shoulders and enables me to think about how do we nurture not only the survival of black people, but the flourishing of black people.

So, this is how I enter into the conversation in human history is to say that, you know, look at these amazing black psychologists, who’ve done this work up until now. And even in more recent years, you’ve had, you know, certain works that highlight, you know, black psychology. I’m thinking about various volumes, on the black psychology, which are available. All we gotta do is look ’em up and, and teach from them and study from them. And we’ll be better equipped to care for black people. And one of the things that I saw was even as I, I did the research, there was not much of anything highlighting the experiences of black men in their own words. And so I felt like it was important to actually, how about we actually talk to black men, see how they experience life, make a space for their stories to be told, and then, to do some reflection about how can we nurture, not only their survival, but also their flourishing.

So this is how and why I develop, what I name as a hope to keep going model. For care and counseling, which is in my book care for the mental and spiritual health of black men. One of the, the folks I build off of is Victor Anderson. Who’s also at Vanderbilt. And one of the things that he talks about is that for too long, black existence has been taught to suffering and resisting that suffering. So in his book beyond ontological, blackness, you know, he makes an argument that, black folks should not be tied solely to an existence of, you know, suffering and then having to resist that suffering. But he’s like everybody wants to flourish including black people.

Carrie: Right.

Dr. Nicolas: So what does it look like for us to not. Get rid of the need to resist all these oppressive things that cause us to suffer. We’re always gonna have to resist those things, but what does it look like to also think about how do we intentionally nurture the, the flourishing of people? So I pick up on that in my book and say, “Hey, this book is about certainly nurturing the survival, the healing and the liberation of black men”, and also the ultimate step of this work is to nurture the flourishing of black men. So that’s a significant aim of my book.

Carrie: Awesome. It’s really great. So at the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Dr. Nicholas: Wow! I was just thinking about this the other day with the person and saying that there was a moment when I was, it might have been 11 or 12 years old, and I started playing piano when I was five years old, started playing saxophone when I was nine years old. And I remember I was at a church, my home church there in Atlanta and the pastor at the time, you know, he references, you know, the words in the Hebrew Bible and you know, the Old Testament during his sermon, he asked a question, what has God placed in your hands? And that was a significant question for me to reflect on, right? Because I then began to recognize, oh my goodness, I’ve been blessed with all these different gifts and ways of being. And, and then part of that work of God and the act of God that I experienced throughout my childhood was a village of people. Whether it was from that church or, you know, from the various schools I attended, you know, and certainly middle and high school. People who saw these gifts, these things that God placed in my hand. And help to nurture those gifts.That that’s been a significant, you know, gift that I experienced and, and act God in my life that has nurtured my own survival and flourishing.

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really, like amazing. We take that step back and realize, like what God has gifted us with.

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely.

Carrie: Thank you for having this conversation. I’m always very interested and open to hearing people from other perspectives and other lived experiences that I haven’t experienced. So I, hopefully it will enrich other people, as they listen to conversation as well.

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely.

Carrie: Regardless of your cultural or racial background, I hope that you found this interview interesting, and that maybe you learned something from it that you didn’t know before. One of the things I’ve really enjoyed about doing the podcast has been the variety of different people that I’ve gotten to interview and talk with people from really all over the world, Canada, London, Africa.

We haven’t had anybody that I’ve interviewed from Australia. So if you’re in the mental health space in Australia, I know we have listeners out there, certainly hit me up on the website and let me know what you’re doing in your community and in your part of the world. For all of our listeners, if you enjoy the podcast and you really feel like you have benefited from these episodes, I want to encourage you to think and pray about giving back. This is a ministry that reaches people all over the globe. You can support our show financially either through Patreon or buy me a coffee. We will have both of those links in the show notes for you. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of, By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guest are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

65. ACT Therapy for Anxiety and OCD with Ingrid Ord, psychotherapist and author

Written by Carrie Bock on March 16, 2022. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 65. ACT Therapy for Anxiety and OCD with Ingrid Ord, psychotherapist and author

My guest today is an experienced Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) practitioner and author, Ingrid Ord. Ingrid talks about the connection between ACT and Christianity.

How did Ingrid develop an interest in ACT?

What is ACT, and how does it work?

How does ACT help with anxiety and OCD?

Bible characters who went through hard times and learned to accept their situations.

Ingrid’s book, ACT with Faith

48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Written by Carrie Bock on September 29, 2021. Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Today on the show, I’m privileged to be interviewing Rich Lewis, a speaker, coach and author. Rich has been practicing centering prayer since 2013 as a way to relate and pray to God. He even wrote a book about it.

What is centering prayer and how do we do it?
What are the purposes and benefits of centering prayer?
What are the challenges in practicing centering prayer?
Basic steps of centering prayer
Rich Lewis’ Book: Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

Resources and Links:

Rich Lewis
Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

More Podcast Episodes

Is Mindfulness for Christians?

Transcript of Episode 48

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 48. This is your host, Carrie Bock. On our show, what we do is focus on reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. In one of our very early episodes, we talked about prayer. We’ve also talked on the show about mindfulness in the past. Both of those were great episodes. I encourage you to go back and listen if you haven’t heard those.

And today we’re talking with author and speaker Rich Lewis. A meditative practice called centering prayer. So I’m really interested in learning more about this and how it might be beneficial for people with anxiety.

Carrie: So thanks for coming in and talking with us Rich. I really appreciate it.

Rich: Sure. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Carrie: So how did you get connected with and interested in centering prayer?

Rich: I stumbled into it in late 2013 in a book. So prior to late 2013, I’d had read books by Carl McColman and he talked a lot about silence and how powerful and transforming it was. But I don’t remember him talking about a practice to do in this silence. So at that point, I just sit in silence but do not really have a practice and this was probably in 2012 and 2013. Then I was simply browsing Amazon looking for a book to read and I came across Amos Smith’s book, Healing the Divide: Recovering Christianity’s mystic roots.

In his book, he talked about a practice called centering prayer that he had been doing, I think for about 15 years at that point. So that immediately intrigued me because I was looking for something to do in this silence, which may sound funny, but I didn’t know what I was supposed to do in silence.

So I began investigating centering prayer and obviously, his book talked about it. Then I began reading other books on centering prayer. I started practicing centering kind of dabbling in it in late 2013 and then decided to, I’ll call it, jump into centering prayer, swimming, swimming pool on June 1st, 2014 and practice it more regularly on a daily basis.

So that’s how it happened. I’ve been attracted to silence and then I came across a practice that you can do in the silence in late 2013 and started exploring it. It resonated with me and I’ve been doing it since June of 2014.

Carrie: I know silence can be intimidating for some people is, especially in the beginning. Maybe they feel uncomfortable with it. I’m curious for you when you started out was surges, like this internal craving in your spirit for more silence. Just a sense of like, life is so busy, so noisy, so much going on, like you needed that space.

Rich: It just intrigued me. I guess I was looking for a new way to relate to God and a new way to pray to God. I guess I was all, I always considered myself an introvert, so I didn’t mind being alone at times. I go into crowds and have friends, but I don’t mind being alone or taking a walk alone or going in nature or going on a walker or a bike ride by myself. Since I had read silence was powerful. I thought it was the way to sit with myself and another neat way to just sit with God, rather than talk out loud to God. So it kind of intrigued me.

Carrie: Okay. What is centering prayer exactly? How do you describe it to other people?

Rich: Centering prayer has been around since what was created in the early 1970s by three Trappist monks. So, three Catholic priests saw a transcendental meditation going on and they wanted something for the Christian community. So they created centering prayer and the method itself actually was found by Fr. William Manager. One of the three Trappist monks kind of found the method of centering prayer in an old book called the Cloud of Unknowing.

And then the three of them, the two other priests, including himself sort of refined to practice and started teaching it to priests, clergy, and rolling it out to the public. So it’s been around, I guess, at this point for about 50 years. It’s considered meditation and a relationship with God and it’s silent wordless prayer.

I’ll describe how you do it. The guidelines are you sit comfortably with your eyes closed and then to begin your silent sit, you introduce what’s called a sacred word interiorly, and it really means you’re consenting to the presence and actions of God within. The word usually is anywhere from one to three syllables and it could be anything – love, ocean, God, Jesus, some type of short syllable word. Whenever you begin engaging your thoughts as you’re sitting there. What I mean by that is whenever you begin thinking about what you did before your sets or thinking about what you’re going to do when you get up from your sets, you realize that you’re beginning to engage your thoughts and plan and plot and that’s you’re supposed to let go of them.

So you’ve then re-introduced the sacred word. Let go of these engaged thoughts to bring you back to the present moment. Then you let go of the sacred word itself as well And you do that during the duration of the time that you’ve decided to sit, whether it’s five minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, you kind of repeat that.

It’s not a mantra. So there are mantra-based practices. Centering in this with centering prayers just used when it is needed. The last thing I’ll say about the sacred word is that it doesn’t have to be a word. Like if you’re an auditory person, it may work well. I started with a word and then I discovered I’m really more of a visual person. So I used an image and I would kind of picture the image and I wouldn’t like to paint it out and draw it out. But I would just think of that picture and think of that image to bring myself back. So if you’re a visual person, If you’re more of a physical person, you can use your breath. And then lastly, some people want to keep their eyes open, or they’re just afraid they’ll fall asleep.

So they keep their eyes open and stare at a spot four or five feet in the distance somewhere and kind of focus on that during this sit. So that’s a little bit about what is centering prayer. It is meditation, then a relationship with God where you are consenting to the presence and actions of God within and how long it’s been around and how you do it.

Carrie: Okay. So when people are selecting a sacred word or picture of that nature that they can use and kind of go back to, to redirect themselves to the practice, do they usually use the same one each time, or does it depend on the day?

Rich: That’s a good point. So you should use the same word or visual image during the sit. Don’t change it because then you’ll spend more time in what’s my next sacred method instead of really sitting with God. So use the same method during these sets. Then if you discover, you want to switch a word, or I think I want to switch to an image, do that on your next sit. That is what we recommend and then kind of find the method that works best for you and then stick with it. So, as I said, I started with a word and then I switched to an image and I’ve been using the same image for years at this point.

Carrie: What are some challenges that people run into when they start this practice?

Rich: I guess the first thing they say is, they think maybe they’re failing at it because they have racing thoughts and they’re using their method numerous times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So they may think that they’re failing because they’ve used their sacred method a hundred times or 500 times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So that’s kind of one thing people say, and then another thing, some people will, they’ll say, I don’t have time for this.

I challenged them to do this sit anyhow. So for example, I would challenge people, make it. The first thing you do is you begin your day and then get up and, and start your day. Then I encourage people to add a second sit and I think that’s where some people will say, well, I don’t have time, I’m too busy and I’m not arguing. But I’ll say it has a way of giving you back time from my experience. Now I stop what I’m doing and do a second sit right before lunch, no matter how busy I am. Then when I look back at the day, I discovered that I was very productive and I got done what I needed to get done.

And in fact, I really needed this sit because the benefit of the sit is that you’re bringing this let-go posture that you do in centering prayer into your everyday life. You’re letting go of the tasks that you don’t need to do and focusing on the things that you need to do. So has a way of giving you back time, but you don’t know that until you actually try it. So that’s another thing that people will say, I don’t have time to do it. And I’ll say, I think actually it has a way of giving you back time if you trust the process and trust your sits.

Carrie: I imagine that if you feel calmer after this practice or more at peace, and maybe your mind is more clear to prioritize like you were saying of what’s the most important thing that I actually need to get done today and what is really inconsequential or it can wait till tomorrow.

Rich: Right. That’s exactly what happens in the gesture or the posture of letting go and opening to the moment, opening to God, opening to life comes with you outside of your sit. You take that same gesture or posture with you, as you get on with your day. I have found it calms me down, slows me down and helps me focus on what I need to do, and lets go of what doesn’t have to happen today.

Carrie: I imagine that you have different experiences on different days with this, but what are some of the experiences or the takeaways that you’ve received from these moments of centering prayer?

Rich: So well during them, it’s not your even special life go of whatever your experience is. So if you’re experiencing joy and peace, that’s wonderful. But you are really supposed to let go of that. Come back to your sacred method and just continuously open to the presence and actions of God within. Obviously, you may experience painful thoughts because a lot of times things can come up.

Our bodies and I guess our minds hold a lot of repressed thoughts. Some of them we don’t even know we have, and they start coming up. When we do sit, other times it forces us to come to terms with some of our things and they come up. So we are kind of let go of them and come back to the present moment with our sacred word. It’s more so outside of centering prayer is where you notice the benefits of your practice. During the practice, our job is just to show up and let go of us and all of our thoughts, all of our emotions, and be open to the presence and actions of God.

I think of it as reverse prayer. God is praying for me, what I need, and that can be many things. It could be inner peace, calm, confidence, wisdom for tasks, nudges to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things. So all of this is happening during my sit, and I’m noticing it’s outside of my sit where I’m noticing I feel more confident or I feel more energized or I seem to have wisdom for a task that earlier I didn’t know how to do or I feel like I’m being nudged to try and do something new. That scares me a little bit, but I know it’s going to help me grow. So it’s outside of your practices where you notice kind of the fruits of the practice from God, quite frankly.

Carrie: So it’s an opportunity for the holy spirit to minister to your spirit.

Rich: Right. I mean, that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re sitting with God and letting God act in you and just resting in the rest of God and trusting that God knows exactly what you need for even when you get up from your set.

Carrie: I really like that because there are times where we may feel lost spiritually and we don’t even know what to pray or what to ask God for. But just like you’re saying, God knows exactly what we need, even before we ask that’s scriptural. So if we take that opportunity to commune with God and say, okay, I’m here and I know that God is here, then things can happen that are probably even outside of our awareness.

Rich: Right and that encourages people. By all means, don’t give up your other prayer forms and I pray other ways as well. Just add a silent meditation, prayer like this, and see how it can enrich and complement your other prayer forms and enrich your prayer life. If you think about it, often we might sit with a friend or someone special or spouse and you don’t always need to be talking. You’re just together taking a walk or together sitting and we’re together watching a movie. It’s kind of the same thing you’re sitting with God and you don’t always have to have words with God. You just sit with God and it’s like sitting with a friend, a special friend’s words aren’t always needed.

Carrie: I like that and there’s the truth to that. Tell us about when people are first getting started. Is there a length that you recommend that they start with?

Rich: Sure. The temple of outreach is the main center and prayer organization that was created in 1984. They suggest two sits or get yourself up to two sits of 20 minutes. But obviously, that could be rather difficult for people and so I suggest taking baby steps. The first thing you do is you get up in the morning before you do anything. And then two, make it five minutes and then begin your day, and then slowly work your way yourself up from 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 minutes.

I then encourage people to do the same thing with the second sit and take a look at your life. Where does the sit best belong? Is it before lunch? Is it before dinner? Is it after dinner? Is it later in the evening? Only you can know when it makes the most sense for you and then take the same approach with that sit if you have to start with five minutes and work your way up to 20 minutes.

The last thing I’ll say is they suggest 20 minutes because sometimes they can take you that long, just as still you’re in the inner voice is going on in your head. But in my opinion, any silence is better than nothing. So there are times where my first sit is 20 minutes and then my one before lunch is 7 minutes or 10 minutes. I think it’s more important to take the time for silence because any silence is better than no silence in my opinion.

Carrie: Okay. So what are some of the other benefits that you’ve seen in your life as you’ve been on this journey of centering prayer?

Rich: When I think about myself before centering prayer, then after centering prayer, even though, obviously right now into the present moment, it definitely has changed me. I enjoyed life then, but I think I’m more excited about life simply because I think I’m more present in the present moment and enjoying the present moment, whatever that is. So a practice such as centering prayer helps you kind of let go and be present, whether it’s for the task you’re doing or enjoying or listening to the person in front of you, who’s talking or taking a walk and enjoying the scenery.

It’s helped me have a bigger excitement for life and to be more present for life and more present for people. It definitely gives me wisdom for tasks. I’ll have things just pop into my head during the day that I couldn’t figure out earlier. Some of them are, as one example what my daughter works at Wawa and it was a Saturday and I’m driving home after picking her up and a solution popped into my head on SA I wasn’t even thinking about it. The solution to a problem at work popped into my head. So I tried it quickly when I get home. I didn’t plan on working on Saturday, but I quickly tried it and it worked. So I’ve seemed to notice sometimes solutions to things start popping into my head that I was struggling with. I attribute it to my centering prayer practice and kind of clearing the clutter.

So that kind of stuff. I think I’m a much more confident person and I’m definitely more willing to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things, which is really what I’ve been doing since I’ve been practicing, centering prayer. I’ve created my website and I get out and teach people. I work with people one-on-one and I’ve written a book and I get out and talk to small groups or even one-on-one about the book. These are the things that I probably don’t think I would have done previously. I think they would’ve made me nervous just the idea of doing all those things would have made me very nervous. I never would even never have tried them, but centering prayer has given me a boost of confidence or God has given me a boost of confidence just to trust me and together we continue to move forward.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think that’s great and that’s so much has changed for you. We willl certainly put the links into the show notes regarding this, but I know that you wrote a book on centering prayer. Tell us a little bit about that. If people are interested, in reading more and getting their practice.

Rich: The book’s called Sitting with God: A Journey To Your True Self Through Centering Prayer and it’s hard to believe that next month it’ll be out one year. What caused me to write the book was, I had mentioned earlier that Amos Smith, I discovered centering prayer in his book that I read in late 2013. Then I began kind of an email dialogue with Amos via his website and then we became friends along the way.

I began initially working with him off of his site. He’s the one that actually challenged me to write a book. He saw that I had a big interest in centering prayer and he thought his book was more academic and that I might be able to approach it a little bit more laid back than his book did. He actually challenged me to write a book. So at the time, I thought he was crazy because I had never really written anything long, longer than six, seven pages in college. He challenged me to think about what is centering prayer and what does it mean to you and just write single sentences.

So I did that and then I came back to him with about, I remember 15 or so sentences and then in his mind he said, there’s your chapters, go write your book. I didn’t think it was as simple as that. So I picked one of them and then I took a couple of weeks to write that chapter, sent it to him and I just wanted to get his reaction. To my surprise, he thought it was fresh, neat and had something interesting to say. So at that point, it dawned to me that, well, maybe I really can do this. So I kind of checked in with my wife and I said, how do you feel about me taking time to write a book? And she said, do it. So I decided to write the book.

I didn’t want to take time away from my family so this is pre-COVID-19. The book actually got written mostly on Saturdays. Believe it or not. Saturday mornings in Starbucks, I would get up at about 5:30 in the morning, put on a baseball cap, grab my laptop, go to the local Starbucks, get a cup of coffee, open the laptop and that’s really where the book got written over. Probably two and a half years or so, because then the next step after that was really kind of editing the book and then approaching publishers to see who would want to publish it.

So that’s really how the book happened. It happened because Amos challenged me to, and I’m really glad he did because those Saturday mornings were neat spiritual exercises for me. Other than the one chapter I did, which talks about Jesus and what did the scholars say we know what is true about Him, where I had to do some research, listen to some of the scholars, and read some of them taking notes down. I then decided from my notes and what am I going to put in that chapter. In the other chapters, I knew basically what I wanted to write about, and I just needed to let the words naturally flow from my heart, to my fingertips, and onto the laptop, so to speak. So it was a neat spiritual exercise and that’s how the book got done.

Carrie: Okay. So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests this question. What is a story of hope? Like a time where you received hope from God or another person?

Rich: So this is going back to about 1997. I’ve been married for five years at that point and my wife and I, joked around about this, that we’re on the five-year plan. We wanted to be married without kids for five years, but then after five years, we wanted to have a family and we weren’t able to, it wasn’t working the natural way. So we decided we needed to explore other ways to have children.

We did a lot of praying to God and the pastor of our church actually knew somebody within the church that was also adopting and they were adopting from Russia. So we were put in contact actually with that agency. Normally, it takes a lot longer, but in our case, it only took us about six months from contacting the agency, doing all the stuff you needed to do, and then flying over, to pick up your child.

It actually took six months and in six months of beginning contacting them, we adopted our first son, Benjamin Lewis. We actually saw him on his first birthday. So we adopted him the day after his birthday because I remember celebrating his first birthday in the adoption where he was living and then we actually legally adopted him. I believe it was the next day that was something where it was a lot of hope and praying about we wanted to have a family and God was telling us that I want you to adopt a child. Obviously, we adopted Ben, and then we went back to Russia in 2002 and adopted Gabriela.

So Ben is now going on 25 and Gabriela, we adopted her in 2002, she’s now 20. Then they say this happens, you’re just relaxed or whatever. We were able to have children and Joshua came along and that we have a natural Joshua or biological son, but all three of them are our children and they all love each other and we don’t consider them biological versus adopted. They’re just our three kids. Josh was 13. So we have a 13-year old, a 20-year-old, and a 24-year-old. That’s what God wanted us to do. God wanted the first two. He wanted us to help two children that needed a home and we did, and then he wanted us to obviously have Joshua. So we did.

Carrie: So you are triply blessed with children.

Rich: It was a neat experience. I think when all said done, I think I was in Russia five times, never expected that I would be visiting Russia five times for with this adoption process. But now, it was a wonderful experience and we’re blessed with three great, still call them kids, even though the two of them are not quite kids anymore. Three great kids.

Carrie: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that story. That’s a good one. Well, I appreciate you educating me and our listeners on centering prayer. This definitely sounds like something I want to add to my practice even if it’s just in a small way and maybe it’ll grow and build from there. I hope that some of our listeners try this out as well. So thanks for coming and sharing with us.

Rich: Thanks for having me, and hopefully this was helpful for your community. So thank you very much.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

41. Writing the Christian Book about Anxiety She Wanted to Read with Tiffany Ciccone

Written by Carrie Bock on August 11, 2021. Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 41. Writing the Christian Book about Anxiety She Wanted to Read with Tiffany Ciccone

Today on the show, we are privileged to hear Tiffany Ciccone’s journey through anxiety. Tiffany is an English teacher and a writer. She has been struggling with an anxiety disorder since she was a child.

Symptoms of her anxiety disorder that continued into her adulthood
Growing up in a church where she would hear sermons like anxiety and depression are a sin
Having a hard time connecting with God and finding a new church where she could freely talk about her disorder
Started writing a book as part of her healing process
Her husband’s role in seeking professional help for her
Encouragement or hope Tiffany would provide to her younger self

Links and Resources:

Tiffany Ciccone

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Transcript of Episode 41

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 41. On today’s show. I am talking with Tiffany Ciccone who is an English teacher and also working on writing a book about her anxiety.

Carrie: Tiffany, welcome to the show. I’m so glad that you’re going to talk with us about some of your personal experiences and your book writing process.

Tiffany: Thank you, Carrie. I’m happy to be here and have this opportunity.

Carrie: We actually met on social media through Instagram because you’re in the process of writing this book about your personal story with anxiety. And so I’m curious what that process has been like for you just like opening up and sharing your story.

Tiffany: Sure. So it started a long time ago, basically, when I was first diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. I did what we would all do. And I went home and Googled. I just Googled it hard. And there was a lot I found about what is generalized anxiety disorder and what are the symptoms, but there’s a whole part of me that wasn’t addressed anywhere online.

I couldn’t find it anywhere. It was back in 2006. It was kind of early on with the whole mental health awareness thing. And there were no Christians talking about generalized anxiety disorder. There were Christians talking about, “Oh, don’t worry. Trust God. He takes care of the sparrows, he’ll take care of you,’ and all that good stuff. But, you know, I grew up in the church and I already knew that stuff. That wasn’t what my problem was. And I just felt so alone. There was nobody talking about and describing what I was going through. And so that night when I was on my laptop, looking for people I could relate to.

I think that’s the moment the book was conceived because I came across this quote by Tony Morrison and she says, if you can’t find the book you want to read, then you need to write it.

Carrie: And that’s so good.

Tiffany: So that was what I had to do. And it was like 10 years until I started writing it because there was a lot I had to go through.

A lot of healing that took place. And I didn’t know in that moment that I was going to write a book. Since then it’s been a ride. So I’m an English teacher and 10 years into teaching my husband and I moved from the bay area to San Diego. And that cleared up some time for me. And I started writing. I just started blogging because, well, if I want to write, I can, nothing’s stopping me. So I started a blog and I noticed that all of my content started to kind of focus around one topic and that was the intersection of anxiety and my faith. So I kind of decided, you know what? this topic is really new one. It’s really deep and it deserves its own book. So I stepped away from the blog and I started outlining a book and it’s been a challenging, worthwhile process. And it’s been a few years now kind of working through it and I have a manuscript now. It’s over a hundred pages and I met kind of a fun point where it’s like a jigsaw puzzle.

I’m trying to see kind of how these different pieces I wrote fit together. And I’m hoping and praying that it can help people kind of in that moment where I found myself where who can relate to this. Who’s been here before, who can tell me what to do and give me the encouragement that I need. I’m hoping and praying that this book can be that for people in their early diagnosis or maybe long into their diagnosis. And they just want to read someone’s story who read, whose resonates with theirs.

Carrie: Yeah, I would absolutely agree with you just from my own searches of who is speaking into this space about having a clinical level of anxiety, not just an anxiety that everybody faces on a day-to-day basis. Because everybody goes through some level of anxiety at some point or another in their life, but when you’re talking about things like I don’t know if this is part of your story, but when you’re talking about dealing with things like panic attacks or just intense episodes of anxiety, not being able to shut off the worries, It’s just a whole different level and a lot of times people in the church will kind of approach it like it’s just kind of, oh, it’s every day, like normal anxiety, like I deal with and not really realizing no, it’s really a little bit more complex than that. So some of the things that might be helpful. day-to-day worries. Anxieties fears are not going to be necessarily the same things that are going to be helpful for generalized anxiety disorder.

And I think kind of you, and I probably share some similarities in that we want to get this message out there and haven’t seen people who are talking about it and it’s kind of part of what’s propelled his podcast too. So it’s really great to have you on to talk about this. So tell us a little bit about in terms of your symptoms like when did you first start to experience anxiety, even if you didn’t know that’s what it was called.

Tiffany: I think the first kind of manifestation in my childhood, I had a lot of health anxiety. Back then we called it hypochondria, but I was just writing about it the other day. It would be like the craziest littlest things like a bump on my shin. And I would go crying to my dad that I have a tumor in my shin. When I Found split ends, I was in third grade, I think on a trip with my grandparents and the trip was great until I saw the split in. And I just knew like this is cancer, like, what else could this possibly be? And when I came home, I just felt the weight of the world.

As I had to tell my parents that their oldest daughter’s dying and I wasn’t afraid of the death part. I was like really afraid of ruining my parents’ lives of bringing them all this sorrow and grief and through like a medical nightmare and that kind of incident just repeated itself throughout probably when I was like 20. I kind of like eased up and stopped.

I was really blessed that my dad gave me extra reassurance. And some of the logical things that he talked me through when I would freak out God kind of embedded in me.

Carrie: So you can start to challenge.

Tiffany: Yeah. He didn’t know it, but he was teaching me like a part of cognitive-behavioural therapy and giving me good ways to challenge those thoughts.

Also, I recently read on, I think it was the national Institute for mental health that children who are really shy, that can be one indicator later on. Maybe there will be an anxiety disorder. I was a super shy kid. I was put in a study of an experimental playgroup were super shy kids and overly aggressive kids were combined.

Carrie: Oh no, that sounds awful.Who thought of that one.

Tiffany: I know. Great opportunity for bullying. I don’t know if it really worked with me, but it wasn’t horrible. The toys were great. And I don’t remember anyone beating me up. So I don’t think I was healed by it. That’s just like how shy I was. I remember also some perfectionism like I wouldn’t know the answer to a question or I’d be confused in class and there’s one time a computer class where the teacher kept saying to push return and he’s like, I don’t know what return is. What’s return. Oh my gosh. I ended up bursting out crying, like hysterically crying. I can see moments like that where it’s just like, that’s, doesn’t seem quite normal. I can see anxiety there. And then in my adolescence, a few symptoms took me to my doc. And those are symptoms of anxiety, muscle tension. I had really tight back muscles. He had to give me shots in my back to loosen them up. I went to him because my hands were tingling and I thought I had diabetes because of my health anxiety. And it was because I was hyperventilating and I didn’t believe him. So he had me breathe into a paper bag and I’m like, okOkay. And then I, as a teenager, had perfectionism in the context of relationships. I would be crying late in the day because I said something to someone and I thought it would have hurt them or something. And then in college, I over-thought a lot. And I felt the weight of the world on my shoulders with a lot of things.

So really like I do see a lot of pieces of it growing up.

Carrie: Yeah. It seems like you were a shy, but also like very conscientious child of like trying to please everyone and making sure they’re happy. And then that pressure that it doesn’t necessarily have to be pressure that other people put on you, you can put it on yourself, like, oh, I’ve got to do a good job, or I’ve got to be perfect at this. And then when it doesn’t happen like you don’t know how to respond in the school scenario that just creates so much anxiety. Makes a lot of sense. How old were you when you were actually diagnosed?

Tiffany: I was 23.

Carrie: Wow. So you had been dealing with it for years, really before you got a formal diagnosis, even with everything you went through with the doctor in high school and stuff, they weren’t able to identify and pinpoint.

That’s interesting. So what was that process for you like of getting help for?

Tiffany: Well, the awareness was at like zero. I had grown up at a church where it was an evangelical free church with a great youth group, but I never forget the most memorable sermon I’ve sat through our head pastors said that anxiety is a sin.

Depression is a sin. There’s spiritual problems that needs spiritual solutions. You need more faith. That kind of a thing. And I was probably 20 when I heard it and it struck me as wrong then because I knew people who were depressed or who struggled with rage and who had traumatic past.

And I’m sure it was harsh. So I grew up in that kind of context. And at the same time, I had a strong faith myself. I’d been on mission trips. I’ve learned to trust God. I’ve learned to be flexible. I grew up with this understanding the anxiety is for when you’re not trusting God with things that are beyond your control. Whereas my problem was I was freaking out about what was under my control. That was my anxiety, that I was going to screw up what’s on mine. I couldn’t see it. I actually ran into like one of my best friend’s moms back when just before I was diagnosed and I was losing my functionality, basically I ran into her at a grocery store and we chatted for a moment.

She was actually also a trained biblical counselor at church. So I ran to the supermarket. We chatted, I was super anxious at the time because it was hard for me to choose groceries because of my indecision. And she called me later that evening. She’d never called me before, my friend’s mom and she wanted to check in because she said it seemed like something was off, like what’s going on? Are you okay? And I didn’t have much of an explanation for her. And I think she was probably hoping for some breakthroughs, some spiritual something or other, and, you know, I just kind of told her my life circumstances and, and I didn’t have words for the anxiety part because it hadn’t been addressed yet and she couldn’t identify it.

So that just goes to show the level of unawareness that was present in kind of the Christian culture I was in. So I mentioned I was losing functionality, so my saving grace that brought me to a therapist was my husband at the time we were just dating and he got a front center road look at my life and how I was doing emotionally and mentally. And he saw me break down at target over like what toothpastes to buy. He saw me break down at church and I had no clue why I was hysterically crying and he’s like, honey, what’s wrong? And I’m like, “oh no, what’s wrong with me.” And he just hugged me. And he said I think you should see someone. And I was like, oh, you mean like a therapist?

And he’s like, “yes.” And it gave me permission to seek help. It gave me a direction to go in it. It wasn’t like, oh, I’m so offended because you’re saying I need professional help. Like, that’s what I needed. And also at that time, I was in my first year of teaching, which is known to be a disaster, like regardless of how mentally healthy you are, that’s supposed to challenge your menta health.

And so I also had this disorder where I overthought every decision I was making in the classroom. So the kid’s behavior was a disaster and I was just getting like psychological beat downs all the time. So it was the hardest year of my life. I also developed a jaw disorder. It goes hand in hand with the muscle tension that we see with generalized anxiety disorder.

So I was like drinking these awful like lukewarm smoothies at lunch in school. Not just like food from clenching, like,

Carrie: Was that from clenching your jaw, like out of anxiety or?

Tiffany: Yeah, it was from clenching and they said a malocclusion. So my teeth just didn’t fit together. So I’d have to like shift my jaw to get my teeth ticket fit together right. And my jaw had clicked since I was a senior in high school, but my dentist didn’t really give me any guidance from there. And so basically by the time I graduated college, it was really, really painful. I went to specialists in San Francisco got physical therapy. I still see a physical therapist from time to time.

So it was just kind of this convergence of all of these really stressful things and got to mention, I was also earning my master’s degree, blond distance through my credential program. So all of that, like it just broke me and I actually knew a couple other people in my credential, in my master’s program who also dropped out because they couldn’t handle it. I don’t know if they were having mental breaks like I was, but I just got to the point where I was kind of barely functional.

Carrie: Yeah. I think that you bring up a good point, cause it’s one thing to be aware of your symptoms. And it’s another thing to then be able to turn around and communicate those.

Like, sometimes all you can say is I just feel like a mess or I don’t feel well or I’m miserable and I don’t know why. Sometimes until you get around a therapist or a doctor, asked you very specific questions like, what’s your sleep? what you’re eating? How do your muscles field you experienced this or that?

And then you’re better able to tease out and communicate some of those symptoms. I know, just from being a counselor and working with a lot of people with anxiety, sometimes people say things like, I just, I don’t feel well. And I’m anxious. I don’t feel good. I just want to feel better. And it’s really just being able to tease some of those things out to figure out what people’s symptoms are and what they actually need like where’s our starting point here.

Tiffany: Yeah. That was very much my…that describes what it was like for me. And, I recently heard of the term free floating anxiety and I certainly had that where it just stuck around. Yeah. And I didn’t know what it was or what to do with it. I just knew that my breathing feels funny. I know I can’t concentrate anymore, but I had no idea why.

Carrie: So you talked a little bit in terms of like how responses were in the church you were just hearing. Okay. Well, pretty much it’s your fault. You’re not trusting God in some way, or this is a spiritual issue that you need help for. How did you resolve some of those messages and turn them from like unhealthy messages, which is what I believe those are into something healthier and kind of make some resolution or peace with your faith.

Tiffany: That’s a great question. And it’s a really complicated, layered answer, I think pencil book. So we’ll see what words I can think of right now. Therapy really helped. And she wasn’t a Christian therapy, but she was a good therapist who knew how to take my religious beliefs and work with them.

And I was warned in a large sense that my church, I was warned against secular therapy. I was warned against medication. You know, like the Bible only is all we need. Why would you let the world. Like help you in the way that God can help you through the Bible. But like, this was different.

It was clinical. Like he said earlier, you know, it’s, it’s not a spiritual issue of trusting God. It had a much more profound, complicated effect on my relationship with God, actually. So my therapist helped me turn that around. I saw her for two years at the end of my first year, I went on medication as well.

She worked with my doctor. So a little bit also if my kind of getting health story, I started with my doctor, I made an appointment and I told him how I was feeling. I was like crying myself to sleep. And part of that was just sheer loneliness, especially before I met my husband. And I shouldn’t say shared loneliness.

It was a convergence of everything. Thankfully he didn’t just write me a prescription. Referred me to three cognitive behavioral therapist. He said, you know, the research shows, this is the most effective treatment. Here’s three good ones I know of. And this is the same doctor that I grew up with actually who didn’t catch the isolated symptoms.

But when I told him I kinda saw the wheels turning in his head, he was like, oh, you always have been pretty hyper.

And we had this thing where my blood pressure was always elevated at the doctor’s office because of my health anxiety. So like, yeah, he, and just the, my mannerisms, I suppose. So he led me to my therapist. So then a year into therapy, I had learned cognitive behavioral journaling, and that was a huge help because I’d always been a journaler.

And that was a huge coping mechanism for me before I was diagnosed. I can look back at my journals, like in high school and I see that I’m coming to my journal to seek what the heck is happening in my head. I’m like, I’m feeling this way. Why God? And then I kind of dialogue with God through prayer in my journal and do some sort of similar thing to cognitive behavioral therapy.

And so when I learned the formal structure that really helped me. And when I learned cognitive distortions and I learned to identify what thought was, what cognitive distortion and then how to deal with those distortions. There was a lot of healing there, but then the triggers kept popping up. So I’d like have an anxious thought deal with it.

30 minutes later, it’s back, but a different topic. And so I deal with that 30 minutes later, I feel it again. And so that’s when my therapist called my doctor. And he started me on medication. And then that medication journey started. I’m still on it today. I’ve been on various ones over time.

It gives me a strong baseline to work from, and it makes the incidents much fewer. I don’t have a pop-up as frequently. So those things. Ironically, the things that my church had warned me against are the things that helped me see more clearly what was happening to me and brought me back to truth because when my anxiety got under control, I was able to see God more clearly along with everything else.

And I was able to concentrate in prayer again and before I was so confused as to why I couldn’t connect with God like I used to, and I thought it was a sin issue. I heard Christian say before that Christians would mention this feeling of I feel convicted of sin and I’d always, I’d always thought like, what is that like” I don’t really feel that. And so then when I had these new feelings of anxiety, I’m like, oh my gosh, this must be conviction of sin. What’s wrong. And I would search my heart. I would do all the right things to try and find answers with God. And I would come up with nothing. I was stuck and then not just exacerbated things and kept the cycle going of this scrupulosity to use a new word that I recently learned. My obsessing over pleasing God, my obsessing over I don’t want to be a failure to God. And I felt like his little failure. I obsessed about what is the will of God.

And then when I moved to San Diego, I mentioned the move. I started a new church. stopped going to that other church. I didn’t keep going and going.

The other churches in between, you know, we went to my husband’s a little while and you know, they were okay. Nothing major either way, but I didn’t open up about my anxiety because all I had known was that people are not going to understand the church’s definition of anxiety is totally different from my experience of it.

They should have different words in my opinion. So when I moved down to San Diego, this new church. The second sermon I heard there, there was a couple on stage and they’re giving their testimony and it involved infidelity. And my husband and I were sitting there, like with our mouths wide open and I was like, oh my gosh, like, okay, if they can talk about this here from the stage, I can talk about my anxiety.

Carrie: Wow. So freeing.

Tiffany: And by that time I was 10 years into this journey with anxiety. And I had actually gone into a remission at a point where my anxiety was under control. It was minimal. And I remember one of the things my therapist told me when she graduated me at the end of my two years. She said, don’t be surprised if this comes back during a major life transition.

You know, like if you have a baby, if you move and sure enough, I quit my job of 11 years in the bay area, quit the ministry I was involved with, moved down to San Diego and I was unemployed for awhile. That was my big trigger. And my anxiety came back with new manifestations too.

It was far more physical than before, far less of the thoughts. It was harder for me to cope because it was harder to find the thoughts underneath the physical symptoms. And I had just like happened. I was like, you know, I’ve done this before. I’ve been here. I’ve been through the therapy. I’ve been through this stigma, whatever, I’m done, I’m talking about it.

And so I started more writing about it more freely. I just put it all on paper. I would talk about it. And my church really embraced that and I could give you great examples of it if we have time for it if you want to take it in that direction.

Carrie: It seems like hearing somebody else’s story that totally freed you up and reduce shame and stigma to allow you to share your story.

And then I’m sure like you sharing your story has blessed someone else in the church who thought, oh gosh, I just thought I was sitting here. And I was the only one going through anxiety because I do think that that happens a lot in church unfortunately, if we don’t open up and we don’t talk about these things, or we don’t say… I look at my clients who talk about their therapy openly to other people. And oftentimes that will free someone up in their life to get therapy because then their friend or family member, whoever will go, oh, you’re getting therapy. Like, I guess it’s okay. Then, it’s that whole reducing the stigma and just kind of making it more of a normal process that, that it’s okay to go through. That’s awesome.

And I love what you said too earlier about how it’s almost like anxiety was this cloud in between you and your relationship with God where you had a hard time seeing God clearly or connecting with him because this was in the way. And I really believe that as we’re able to work through some of those things, so we have a clear picture of who God is, of how much he loves us, so that, you know, he’s for us. And it just changes things a lot in terms of that positive connection with God.

Tiffany: Yeah. I kind of felt in one of those moments, I felt like the prayer where the, I forget who it was, but a man in the Bibles tells Jesus, you know, I believe help my unbelief. In those moments where the anxiety was heavy. It’s like, God, I, yeah, I know these things deep in my gut, but they’re not true in my, yeah.

I can’t grasp them rationally and I don’t know why or how, and, and God was definitely good and that he did help me brought me to that therapist and brought me on this huge journey since then.

Carrie: So what I used to do on my show, I’d have guests on and I’d say, okay, now tell me a story of hope, you know, sometime where you receive hope from God.

And then I started doing more of these personal stories and just in a really make sense, because your whole story is hopeful, right? So I decided that this go-around of recordings. I’m going to shift the question, the kind of, some of our closing question a little bit. So your closing question is if you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?

Tiffany: This is a great question. And I gave her a bit of thought and I kind of came up with like everything I needed, like basically to my younger self. If I’m going to look at this, literally. I wouldn’t give myself any extra encouragement or hope where I went because God gave me what I needed when I needed it through people, through things like this podcast.

And I wouldn’t change that journey painful as it was because God is a beautiful artist, but there are things, I decided what I wanted to share was what I wanted to hear that night when I realized nobody understood, nobody was talking about what I was going through. So if I could, I think I just closed by reading a piece. I have a writing coach and he challenged me if I only had 15 minutes and don’t worry, this isn’t 15 minutes of reading. If I only had 15 minutes with the people who I’m writing for, what would I tell them? So I’m just gonna read that if that’s okay. So this is, I feel like what I needed to hear.

We have been told that as Christians, we shouldn’t be anxious or depressed. This makes us feel like crap because anxiety and depressive disorders don’t really give us. Scriptures like be anxious for nothing and rejoice the Lord always are directed and fired at us by church leaders, Christian authors, and friends and family who like to tack on offhand remarks and platitudes.

When I’m anxious, be anxious for nothing just makes me feel like that much more of a failure. They don’t understand the desperate darkness we’re dealing with or what it stems from. They expect us to be able to remove the very thorns that God alone can remove. Because the experience is limited and because they’d forget to listen, they assume that depressive disorders are the same as their own struggle with discontentment and they assume that anxiety disorders are the same as their own struggle to trust God with the present and future.

Infact, I consider it a misnomer to use the word anxiety for both their spiritual struggles and our visceral psychological disorders. I know it’s cheesy, but it might help a little bit to refer to the clinical stuff is thorny, after the thorn that the apostle Paul was inflicted with. That’s how I think we need to understand our disorders.

See if Paul’sexperience resonates with yours. And then this is second Corinthians 12 seven. A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited three times. I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me, but he said to me, my grace is sufficient for you.

For my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest upon me for the sake of Christ then I am content with weakness, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong like Paul and his thorn, none of us asked for our disorders. They harassed. They keep us from being conceded, from thinking rationally and from being generally functional, they keep us weak and in the presence of tears and the collapsing and the haze and the stigma in the midst of it all, we find that his grace is sufficient.

This is the real gospel, the gospel of weakness. The mistaken American church preaches a gospel of strength self-sufficiency and name it and claim it success in healing. In short, it’s kind of like the pharisees. No wonder it is obsessed with removing thorns with all its books and sermons about overcoming anxiety and depression.

It is forgotten Jesus’s words, “Blessed are the weak in spirit.” It is forgotten that our king was a man of sorrows. Well acquainted with grief. It is forgotten how the heart of God grieves the fall of his beloved mankind is forgotten the, in our very nature, we are all weak. It is distant from the truth and its source. In this ironic sense we are blessed. Our thorns remind us that we need rescue. They keep us tethered to our savior and the source of truth. I need to be rescued regularly from the adrenaline that just shoots on for no reason when my prefrontal cortex shuts down, I need to be rescued when my mind turns on me in a thick fog sets in over the truth.

Over the years, these words of CS Lewis have given me great comfort. They have done the rare thing of understand me as a person of faith with an anxiety disorder. If you are a poor preacher poisoned by a wretched upbringing in some house full of vulgar jealousies and senseless corals saddled by no choice of your own.

With some loads, some sexual perversion, parenthetically I put were bipolar disorders, schizophrenia or panic disorder, or any of those nagged day in and out by an inferiority complex that makes you snap at your best friends. Do not despair. He knows all about it. You are one of the poor whom he blessed. He knows what a wretched machine you were trying to drive. Keep on, do what you can one day, perhaps in another world, but perhaps far sooner than that, he will fling it on the scrap heap and give you a new one. And then you may astonished us all, not least yourself for you have learned. You’re driving in a hard school. The church’s obsession with curing anxiety and depression.

I was controlled. What if Paul came across a book called remove your thorn or pray your thorn away or choose Christ, not your thorn. Would Paul feel like a failure? Would he wonder what am I doing wrong? But he was obsessive, he searched for some horrible sin. That must be preventing his thorn removed. What would it cause him to spiral?

Like I do. I’ll never know the anxiety of guest 70. It’s a good thing that Paul’s thorn wasn’t removed. I have no more ability to cure my anxiety than Paul was able to remove his own thorn. And also like Paul, it doesn’t mean I don’t try. I’m surprised. He only asked God three times.

I’ve asked a bazillion while God is not cured me less I become conceited. He’s done so much healing, especially through means that have been denounced by many in the church like secular therapy, medication, nature, self-care. Do what you can. Here’s my closing. Do what you can to take care of the body God gave you. I’m still learning how to take care of mine. Ours might be a little janky. But remember God redeems, all things let’s get comfortable with the law we’ve been given, not complacent, not giving up, but doing what we can and then surrendering the rest of Jesus. Perhaps the goal is to trust God with our anxiety disorders, that even if healing doesn’t come, that we may have the posture of the mother of God.

I am willing to be used of the Lord. Let it happen to me as you have said, Luke, that’s from Luke one. That’s my prayer of submission. When I can’t shake my anxiety, that’s the end. And that was way longer than I thought it would be.

Carrie: Oh, wow. So good, Tiffany, we really need this book out. And so we will definitely let people know, whenever you let me know that it’s going to be out, I will let the people know because I love that.

I feel like we share a similar heartbeat for people in the church who are struggling. So thank you so much for being brave and coming on here and talking about your own struggles. I know this is definitely going to be relatable to our audience and that people are going to be blessed by the encouragement.

Tiffany: Well, thank you so much.

_______________

So I’d like everyone to know that we are going to have our second webinar for hope for anxiety and OCD on September the 10th. We talked about reducing shame back in May. And there was a great response to that webinar for those who were able to attend. And I’m very excited about this webinar on September 10th.

We’re going to be just talking about how to deal with difficult thoughts, whether those worry thoughts, like we talked about today, whether it’s OCD, thoughts that are popping into your mind, whatever thoughts you’re having difficulty with as a Christian. Let’s hop on a webinar together and talk about those things.

So I’m going to have a short presentation, usually about 30 minutes, and then I open it up for question and answer and we had some great questions last time. So I’m really looking forward to it for more information, I’m going to put that on our website at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com/webinars.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum.

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

38. What is Self-Care all About? With Monica McLaurine

Written by Carrie Bock on July 21, 2021. Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 38. What is Self-Care all About? With Monica McLaurine

Today’s special guest is a certified life coach, author and motivational speaker, Monica McLaurine. Monica and I had a great conversation about what self-care really means and why it’s so important. Monica also shares some insights on how to help kids deal with bullying based on her book, I Told My Kid To Fight Back.

What are examples of self-care?
Learning to do things a different way
Self-care is for everybody. How do men practice self-care differently than women?
Counseling as part of self-care
Why self-care is important for Christians?
Jesus models self-care
Small ways to start practicing self-care

Links and Resources:

Monica Mclaurine
Books:
   Becoming Comfortable In My Own Skin: The Journey To Loving Me
   I Told My Kid To Fight Back

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Transcript of Episode 38

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 38. On today’s episode, I am talking with Monica McLaurine (see our show notes for spelling on that) about self-care. What in the world is self-care all about. We hear a lot of people talk about it. It’s a big buzzword. And I feel like this episode is timely right now because people are coming back to their rate of busy-ness maybe that they had before COVID, hopefully not as busy, but getting back into routines and activities that we were doing prior to all of the shutting down and restrictions, more places are open and more activities are available.

Monica is also going to talk with us a little bit at the end about some books that she’s written and talks she’s given on bullying.

Carrie: Monica, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Monica: Hello Carrie. Thanks for having me. My name is Monica McLaurine. And I am a certified life coach, and I’m also a two-time author, two books, and I also have some motivational speaking experience. So I am a lover of Christ and a follower of Christ.

And I’m just excited to be here to talk with you on today.

Carrie: I’m excited to have you on, I think we’re going to have a good conversation today on self-care. So, this is something that a lot of people are talking about. You know, it’s a buzz word. “Oh, you gotta take time for yourself. You gotta have self-care.”

So how do you define that for people?

Monica: When I think about self-care is simply what it says is taking care of yourself. And most times people don’t even realize that they’re not taking care of. They don’t realize it, it comes in many forms. There are several different types of self-care, whether it’s physical mass, where you may get out and take a walk or go sit under the stars at night, bird watching whatever it is out and about, or whether it’s emotional, saying no, which is sometimes some things that I struggle with saying no, whether it’s social.

When I say social, this is one of the things that I’ve really, really struggled with is asking for help. A lot of times, like myself, I’m just going to talk about myself. I am happy to help anybody else until I just can’t do anymore. People will ask me, do you need some help with that? I’m like, oh, I’m okay. I’m fine. I have it.

Asking for help, that’s a partisan, right? A lot of people are still working from home currently. So when you think about your environment, decluttering your office or your home. That’s a big thing. My sister-in-law, bless her heart, she is an organizational, very clean person and things are in disarray. She can’t tolerate it.

It pushes her into anxiety. And also going along with that, when you think about professional self-care, if you’re working from home, are you actually taking a lunch break? Are you actually taking a break? Oftentimes I’m guilty of going downstairs to give me something to eat. And then I turned around and come right back upstairs and I’m eating and I’m working.

And so don’t take that mental break and it’s a necessity for self-care or even if it’s just spiritual, meditating. I just recently started meditating because I didn’t understand it at first like what is that? But the sittings feel and allowing yourself to get in the process of being calm because I do suffer from anxiety. So I had to try some different things to make sure that I took care of Monica and meditation was part of that.

Carrie: Just the concept of slowing things down. I think that’s probably our biggest barrier to self care is learning how to hit the pause button. That was something essentially, in some ways we had to do it during this time of pandemic and Coronavirus, things did have to slow down. What I’m seeing now is that like, when we’re recording this, we’re approaching the summer and people are getting vaccinated and they’re getting out more and it’s like I turned to my husband like a week ago and was like, I feel like we’re in pre-pandemic life like our calendar is actually filling up with stuff.

And so it’s an opportunity for us to have a conversation and to say, Hey, where’s our date night at on this calendar? We’re running over here and doing some for church. And then we’re doing something with our friends over here. We’re married. This is important. This is a priority. And part of that, what you’re talking about with the relationship in the social domain, like making sure that you have time for the people that are most important to you life.

Monica: We had to learn to do things a different way. If you did a date night, date night might not be out of the restaurant, but it might be in the backyard. Or if you’d like to go out with your friends and do a happy hour, do do it on zoom. You really had to learn to do things a different way.

Carrie: Right. And those social connections. I think what this has taught us are so important for ourselves like we were made to live in community. And that’s an important thing. I loved what you said there earlier about boundaries and saying no to things in order to take care of yourself. It’s that whole, you’ve got to put on your own oxygen mask on the airplane before you put one on your child. And it’s interesting to me that on the flights that I’ve been on. I haven’t flown in a while, but the flights that I’ve been on, they come around and they look at each person it’s like a real serious thing. It’s like, okay, now I understand that you need to put on your own oxygen mask first

Monica: And we help anybody else until you help yourself first. I

Carrie: f you can’t breathe, that’s not good situation. And so many times we find ourselves in the busyness or the rush of love whether it’s owning our own business or raising kids or serving at the church. And the next thing we know, we’re like emotionally have no time to just sit and rest and breathe and reflect. For me, I know that those periods are what I need to get refueled and recharged to be able to go out and do the other things that I do, especially because I’m an introvert. So there’s this balance. And we had a whole podcast on introversion. If you haven’t listened to it, you know, definitely go back and listen to it because I loved that one. That was one of my favorite, just so identified with it, you know, just needing the time away from people. So that you can go back and engage, you know, with others is yes. Yes. At your own space and your own speed. One thing I did in terms of boundaries recently for self-care. I’ll just share a personal example.

Mother’s day, this year was really hard for me. I have a history of having foster children. I wanted to go to church, but at the same time, I didn’t want to be balling all over the place and, you know, snotting on everybody. So I kind of made this agreement with my husband because he was gonna be greeting that day.

And I said, Hey, I’m going to come to church and I’m not going to greet with you. And I’m not going to stay around and hang out after I’m probably going to be pretty emotional. It’s just a day where I think about, you know, my foster children and missing them. And that’s my context of being a mom since I don’t have my own little.

And this is kind of what I need. I need to just kind of go in, right when service starts, sit in the service, get the word, get the worship, and then I need to leave. I don’t need to kind of hang around and, and cry or anything like that because I know other people are going to be super happy and celebrating.

And I certainly believe there is room there’s room in church for tears. Don’t get me wrong, but it’s kind of just one of those situations where for me, that was what I needed to take care of myself. I needed to not be around people at that point, I needed to go to the car and get my tissues and cry and have a conversation with God and kind of finish up.

That was my finishing of the worship service was in the car and that’s okay. And I didn’t have to feel bad or guilty about that whereas I think in the past, I would have felt like. Oh, I’ve got to feel happy because everybody else around me is happy and I need to be really like celebrating moms. And, you know, you have a mother and you should be thankful.

You have a mother. I mean, there’s so many conversations I think I would have had with myself in the past, but I just like created this space in this room to just have my feelings and take care of myself and do what I needed to do. And that was really the best fit for me.

Monica: Absolutely. And it’s great that you realize that it’s okay to feel like that.

A lot of people like you said, feel guilt or feel like you have to be a certain way. Everybody’s entitled to how they feel. And that’s how you felt at the moment. And you empowered yourself to set those boundaries. That allows you to feel how you feel and that’s awesome. And it’s great that you were able to do that for yourself.

Carrie: Thank you. Why is this topic important for you personally? Is this something that you had view struggled with burnout in the past or with not taking care of yourself?

Monica: Absolutely. I was always on the go go, go here there. And working in my daytime job. I was all over the community, going to the office of one over here that they’ll do this particular program.

And then I’m fighting traffic to go to work. I’m fighting traffic to get home from work. I mean, that would be so many times that I will pull in front of my house. And I would just sit there for like 20, 30 minutes. It’s like I couldn’t move. I was like exhausted. And one of the things that I realized that my body would get to the point where it’s really sick of me. It’s like, oh, okay.

You won’t slow down? Okay. I’m going to slow you down. And it shuts me down for like two weeks. I’ll get bronchitis, I’ll get like really sick and why I have no other choice but to sit down. So if I can avoid that, I had to do something different in order to avoid that because I don’t like being sick. I like being able to do what I want to do when I want to do it.

So it was very important for me, not only for my physical, it was important for my mental, I mean, just burning out, just exhausted, just getting to the point where I had nothing else to give. I was like there’s gotta be a different way. It’s got to be a different way. I can do this. And so that calls me to really look into, see what self-care really meant and what it involves.

Carrie: I’m glad you brought up that physical aspect of illness because there was a lady that I worked with many, many years ago. She was in her thirties and she got shingles and it was really due to stress because she was working seven days a week. And our bodies, we have to listen to that. God gives us these cues that when our bodies are run down, they’ll let us know.

Oh, I just feel like I need to rest today or I need to slow down or I’m getting sick all the time like you were saying. We’ve got to listen to those cues and signals of like a warning sign to take better care of ourselves.

Monica: Yeah. Shingles is very painful. I’ve had shingles, you know, my mom had had. As has shingles is a very painful experience to go through.

And so we have enough hustle and bustle as it is. So why get yourself to the point where you got to add on where you get sick or you get shingles or your blood pressure goes up, or you have heart issues. We’ve got to learn to do things, to take care of ourselves because if we don’t take care of ourselves, who we are?

And ultimately we can’t take care of anybody else or be there for anybody else. If we are not mentally, emotionally prepare and rested and whatever it takes to make sure we’re getting that self-care that we need.

Carrie: Right. One of the things that you and I talked about before we had you come on, the show was that there’s this concept, maybe with males where they hear the word self-care, and they’re thinking about some women that are painting their nails or going and getting a pedicure. Tell us a little bit about that like, how do some of the men maybe that you work with, or that, you know, practice self care?

Monica: It’s really funny that you asked me that. I guess a couple of months ago, I did an experiment on my Facebook pack page asking me, and what do you do for self-care? And the responses were all over the place.

They didn’t really think about it like what is self care? And then you had somewhere the guys were saying, well, that’s girls, that’s not something that. You know, we as men do, then some talked about it. They’d like to go get a hair cut or they like me, and like to get pedicures too. I had a lot of people that said that they said they go and work out or go play video games.

But only if you said that they will take the time to go and talk to somebody about what they’re going through. That is kind of what I expected, but it makes me sad because everybody needs to be, everybody needs to talk through something with someone else. Everybody needs a confidence, I don’t a confidant.

I don’t care who you are. And that is a part of self-care. All of that is a part of self-care. It is in no way strictly for female. It’s is for everybody. And it really made me think what I add a suggestion yesterday, just yesterday. They said, well, maybe we need to call it something else. So it doesn’t seem like that’s just for women, but it also makes me sad.

I’m wondering if we, as society has created an environment for me and when they feel like they can’t do certain things. That they masculine traits them that they shouldn’t do certain things like I saw something today. They said, what kind of man goes to celebrate has a birthday dinner?

I’m like, what you, yeah,

Carrie: just these, like, I don’t know, man-made expectations that we put on men. Like somehow you have to be a Superman.

Monica: Right. And when you think about it and I have been fortunate and I’m honored that some guys feel like they can talk to. And they’re going through something and they’re frustrated and of course, you know, the life coach had me and I’m trying to talk to them while they’re going through.

And then they’re so in a zone while I realized I had to just stop and just listen. Met them, you know, they will say, well, who are we supposed to go to the top to where we’re going through something we’re frustrated, what are we supposed to do? We don’t have the opportunity. And they’re so afraid that if they allow themselves to become vulnerable, that it will be brought up later and thrown in their face, you know?

So I wanted them to see the different options and what self-care looks like. And not only that, they’re entitled to do it as a human being and it is needed. It’s okay to go to sit. I call it couch time to go and sit on someone’s couch and have a conversation and to talk to someone to help you think through it because counseling is not anything for somebody to tell you what to do is to help you to work through it, to find out what’s best for you.

And I am very open about my experience of going and getting my couch time, going to therapy. That was the best thing I ever did in my life. It amazed me because me sharing that I’ve done it. Other people said, well, I went to cause it was like almost like a shame.

So I was like, yeah, I went to and I mean, I’ve helped other people close to me and I’ll help you look for something. You know, if you have insurance, it’s just like getting insurance, you know, in most cases, you know, find you somebody who might take your insurance, or even if, you know, they don’t, a lot of times they will work with you, you know, or maybe offer some free sessions, anything.

So just trying to get where their mind is to get them thinking about what that is, and then not being afraid or shame to do it so that the men, it has been interesting talking to them and listening to them and what their thoughts are, what they felt like society felt like that’s and stuff.

Cause it’s not for me. They should just be okay. That should be there, man, up. Just do it. So it’s pretty interesting.

Carrie: Counseling can definitely be a part of self-care for sure. Mental and emotional health. There’s something about just saying it out loud, sometimes all these things that you’ve been thinking in your head or that you’re convinced of and needing an outside perspective to say I’m not so sure about that. What about, you know, what about this way? Have you thought about it? You know, this way or, oh, that’s, I know you’re convinced of that, but that’s not how I see it. When you tell it to me, you know, you kind of say it back to them. Okay. So you’re saying this it’s, it’s just interesting and can be really freeing.

I know that there are things that come out when I either start talking about something or writing about that I didn’t even realize consciously, I was thinking. Just all of a sudden it was like, oh, oh, I guess I do. I guess I do feel angry about that now that I’ve said all that, but I didn’t realize that was bothering me so bad.

Monica: Right. Until you brought that up. Yeah. I don’t like that either.

Carrie: Right. Yeah. So I know that sometimes Christians can push back against self-care and say, okay, well, we’re really supposed to care for other people, love one another. And that needs to be our primary focus. We’ve got to push this focus in on yourself.

That’s selfish and we need to kind of shove that to the side. What would you say to that?

Monica: Yes, like I mentioned earlier, It seems to be a stigma attached to self-care and going to get help and saying that you need help. And I think it’s unfortunate because I am a believer. I am a love of Christ. I’m a follower of God, but I also believed the God allows in his place, people on this earth to also reach us on the earthly level.

He allows us to access doctors. People have different specialties and he allows that to happen. And he put those here for us to use them. And it’s not a bad thing. It is okay. It doesn’t minimize your relationship with Christ. It doesn’t say that you don’t trust your belief. You don’t trust your relationship with Christ. It has no negative relation to your belief or your relationship. So those things they help, they give you somebody that you can go and talk to. That is completely safe. Whatever happens in there, unless you’re talking about hurting yourself and somebody else. You got to put that in there.

It’s a safe place. You don’t have to worry about spilling everything and then going outside and your friends know what happened, but I went to my first therapy session, it’s crazy because I went because I was encouraging someone else to go. And I was like, okay, well, if you go out, go right. So I go in with what I wanted to talk about and what I was going to discuss in there.

And while I was in my first therapy session, I heard God speak to me clearly and said, she cannot help you unless you tell her everything. I heard him. He said that to me.

Carrie: It’s huge.

Monica: it was huge because things that I thought no longer were an issue or issues that I had in my childhood, all that had to come up out. All of it had to come up.

And I remember I was in tears. I was just like, oh my God, how am I supposed to go to work after this. But you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge.

Carrie: That’s true.

Monica: And one of my favorite people, I say, she’s my mentor, but she doesn’t know it. And she doesn’t even realize it exists. Yama, Vanzant, where she said, villains buried alive, don’t die.

Carrie: That’s true.

Monica: So I had to get all of that up because that affected how I was in adulthood, things that happened as a child. I had to get that up. I had to get it out so I could deal with it, acknowledged that it was a problem. And now I can start my healing process. So I think that was important for me to hear because like I say, going to get therapy or sitting down, talking to a life coach or any of that, you don’t have to worry about being expressed or shared with anyone else, but my therapist and I love her, she helped me talk through it. She helped me to see it. Okay, well, this is what you’re doing. If this is what you want to go and do in the future, how can you do it? And you’re doing this and this, how can you have this and this?

And how are these things going to help you get to what you’re wanting to do? It helped me to map out, okay, well maybe I need to cut something else out or maybe I need to carve some time out for myself so I can think, or maybe I need the carve some time out to where I can’t always go and take care of someone else that I need to do some things for me in order.

So I can share those things with other people. And the biggest thing I remember is just hearing God clearly say she can’t help you, If you don’t tell her everything. I felt like that was God giving me permission.

Carrie: One of the things that I realized when I was looking at self-care and the Bible.

I think it’s the beginning of Mark. There’s a point where everyone’s trying to come to Jesus and they’re trying to get healed, you know, and they’re hearing about some of the miracles that he’s doing and he actually quietly slips away from the crowd and goes away to like pray and to be with God. So there’s this sense that Jesus even models for us, times where people really needed him or wanted something from him.

And he chose at that moment in time not to give it to them or not to continue to give until he got recharged through prayer and through that connection with God. I think that that’s a great model and example for us. The other thing that I think about, and I wrote a blog post on self-care a while back, I don’t know if I ever transitioned it over to the Hope for Anxiety and OCD blog, but I’ll try to do that if I haven’t already. It’s on self care.

And I talked in there about, you know, there, the second greatest commandment is love your neighbor as yourself. And if we don’t love ourselves, what does that mean for our neighbor? Kind of thinking of it, the verse in reverse in a way. I know for me, the times in my life where I was the least gracious towards others, or I was the least forgiving towards other people or loving, I was also that way towards myself.

It was like a mirror. And so the same, thing’s true for self-care, I can speak kindly to myself. I can speak kindly to other people. Sometimes self care begins in the mind in terms of what we put in our minds and what we receive in there. So that was just a couple of thoughts that I had kind of Christianity and self care.

Let’s talk about, if people aren’t engaging in self-care, maybe they’re listening to this and they feel like they’re living the life that you used to live, where they’re just going all the time and doing everything for everybody and feel like they can’t cut back. What are some small ways that people can start practicing self-care if they don’t feel like they have a lot of time to do this. Because I think sometimes when I tell my clients, you need to start practicing self-care they’re like, I don’t have time for that.

Monica: Yeah. I have one client in particular where we’ve been talking about that for a year, and then finally it took her a minute to get it.

But when I say to people who feel like they don’t have time, the first thing is, and it might sound cliche is just to sit there and to breathe.

Now people and myself included, I was like, I’m breathing already, what do you mean

what I’m doing that next, but actually sitting there or laying there and purposely just hearing your breath, concentrate on your breath. It’s kind of taking your mind away from what you may be dealing with, would you want through? And like I said, I do have anxiety in my trigger. My main trigger is anything medical.

Imagine going through the whole coronavirus thing, going to the, I mean, it affected my sleep, it affected everything. So the first thing is just to breathe, just sit there and purposely breathe. Not thinking about anything else, just breathe. That helps me a lot with my anxiety as well. And then next people feel like they don’t have time, but sometimes this go for a five-minute walk, five minutes.

I’m in, well, I’m not talking about walking from one building to the next it work I’m talking about Just a brisk, you know, not even a brisk walk, just a walk and allow God to speak to you. I know sometimes when I haven’t worked out in awhile, I might be working out or walking and I just hear God speak to me.

I’m like, okay, hold on, hold on. I can’t get it off. You know, it allows me to clear my mind and just really question yourself when it comes to self-care. Think of yourself as worth it. You are worth taking 10, 15, 20 minutes a day. I don’t care. Another thing I like to do, I have an adult coloring book.

Now, I have a coloring book. I’m not thinking about what I’m going through. I’m like, okay, well, what color am I going to color this flower? Oh, am I stand in between the lines? It helps me to get my focus on something else. And away from something that could cause me to go into my anxiety attack or causing me not to sleep.

It’s another calmed down method.

And there are several things that you can do to help you, whether it’s decluttering, whether it’s going to spend time with your friends and family if they’re a source of peace. Just find out what gives you your peace. Everybody is worthy of peace.

And everybody is worthy to take the time to get to your peace.

Carrie: I had a client one time that said, I don’t have time for all that self-care stuff. And this was an individual that was working 12 to 14 hour days. And I said, okay. I just want you to try one. We try one thing for me. Will you see when you get to work in the morning, we just take three deep breaths before you get out of the car and they agreed to do that.

And sometimes when you start small, you’ll see how it grows into something bigger. And maybe that might grow into that individual saying, Hey, I’m actually going to take my lunch break today. I’m actually going to take my 30 minutes or an hour and you may have to leave the property to get that lunch break.

But if that’s what you need to do, then that may be what you need to do.

Monica: If you need to take a break from social media and on my personal Facebook page, That’s mine. And most of you take it as something that’s funny, something laughing. I’m sharing pictures of my niece and nephews, my family, my personal page.

It’s fun for me. And if stuff starts to get too bad or I see something negative, or I feel like I’m taking in too much of something. I can turn away from it because you, I give myself permission to that or that, because it can take me, is this too much? Sometimes people say, have you watched this movie?

I’m like I can’t handle that right now. You have to do it and notice, okay, it’s not girly. It’s not, basic feminine is something that you need for your emotional, physical and your mental health. You have to do it. And it’s like if I have something said, or whether it’s writing, writing something down or as my meditation, or if it’s just sitting and doing nothing.

I quite enjoy that. Sitting there and not doing anything. I know that that’s okay. And I know it’s necessary. So just small little things, take a breath, go for a brisk walk, start journaling, do some meditation, visit with friends and family, whatever it is that can bring you some peace or center you, start there.

Carrie: And if you’re looking for those pockets of time, you’ll find. I definitely believe that we spend so much time on our phones, scrolling through social media. And a lot of times that’s not a good way to relax. It’s almost a way to disconnect, I believe from whatever’s going on around us in the moment.

But a lot of times its too much input and it’s too much stimulation and going on, especially before bed or things like that. We’ve got to watch out for that. And I definitely agree. Sometimes you just need to put the phone down, get off social media and say, okay, I’m going to go do something helpful and productive in my life right now that brings me peace and joy. Oh, that’s good. Tell us a little bit about your books and speaking opportunities that you’re involved.

Monica: Thank you for that. As I stated earlier, I am a two time author and it was interesting. My pastor spoke into me, you know, I do a lot of things on bullying and social media and empowerment, and self-esteem things of that sort.

And he was like, you should write a book about that. I was like, who me? What a book, who am I to write about? Right on my first book, which is called Becoming Comfortable in my Own Skin: The journey to loving me. it helped me to evaluate myself. It starts from me wanting to lose weight. And I saw a picture of myself and I just really wasn’t happy with that.

And I said, okay, well maybe I have this medical condition and that can help me give me a. You never take care of it. Right. And I was healthy as a Lark and the problem lie within me. So I was working two jobs and I was working out five days a week. And during that time, you don’t have a lot of time to do other things.

But at what I did have time for was to deal with Monic. I realized how I didn’t love myself like I should out. I didn’t even like looking at myself in the mirror because I didn’t like what I saw. So during that time, it was not so much about losing weight, but it’s the discovery of myself at 38 years old.

And while I was on that journey, I was share certain things, which I believe God led me to do. And I know he did because of the inbox starting. And people just like, okay, well, what are you doing? Or how did you get through this? There were a lot of people who never said anything but will come ask up to me.

If they saw me in church and say, you’re really doing a good job. You know, just there was a purpose behind that. So that was my first book sharing my journey and what I did. And that’s also devotional at the end of it to help you, to start a new habit. I said 21 days, you create new habits, but I’m giving you a 30 day to put what in there, whether it is starting a new business with it as a weight loss journey, whatever it is, 21 days for 30 days to start doing something, to accomplish a goal.

And I was embarrassed at first, but when we go through things like we go through our testimony as far as testimony and that is to be shaped. So my first book is my testimony. It is my journey. And then my second book is called, as I said earlier, I do a lot of things on bullying in social media.

And while we’ll be out and about doing things, I would encounter a lot of parents who came up like I did. Somebody hit you, you hit them back and so forth and so on. The title of the book is called. I Told My Kid to Fight Back. Examining generational differences in bullying yesterday and today trying to let people know we cannot do or handle bullying or social media like we did when we were coming up for one. We didn’t have social media.

We didn’t have those pressures. Thank God for that. And then if you’re telling your kid this view, know that they can even defend themselves. Have you even talked to them about that? Do you know if they can defend yourself? And 99% of the time when I asked that question, they said, well, no, I don’t know, but they got to learn.

But when you’re doing that, you’re creating an environment where your kid may feel like they cannot come and talk to you because maybe they’re not prepared. There was a mother who talked to me and her daughter was getting bullied at school and she was like, you need to start taking up for yourself. You need to fight back.

You need to do this. And the daughter burst into tears. She was like, I don’t know how.

So I’m trying to show how things were when we were coming up and how things are now, and they’re completely different and you cannot handle them the same way. If you want your kids to fight back, that’s fine. But at least prepare them. Think about the repercussions and even parents discipline their children.

I talk about that in this book too. There was a particular young lady where mom was disciplining her. And of course it went viral. I talked about that in the bottom of video that I saw that was CNN, which is international news. What type it is out there on social media, on internet, out there forever. So that following your child for the rest of their life, you gotta be careful in how we do things.

So what we did in my program and around bullying and social media, that led me to write this particular book. Oh, those are the two books that I’m really. And both on Amazon and paper back and on cable and you can get them on Amazon, or you can go to Monica, lauren.com purchase some there.

Carrie: We can put the link in the show notes too, to your website so people can follow you there, or if they want a break tonight. Yes. And if they’re interested in some life coaching sessions, they can also contact dot com there as well. So we can set up some things.

Monica: Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my little trick.

Carrie: Yeah. So at the end of every podcast, since our name is hope for anxiety and OCD, I like to ask the guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Monica: I was really thinking about that question, really thinking about that.

What comes to me is right before I started writing my book. I had been encouraged to write my book. And within six weeks I had lost like 20 pounds. Right. And I kept hearing from God, I need to share my story, share my story, share my story. Like I said, I was embarrassed and I was also a same problem was never the best student.

I was an, a, B, C, D student all throughout my life. So share my story, write a book. I was like, I was my worst enemy. I kept doubting myself, but I believe that if God gives you the vision, he will qualify you to do what he asked you to do. And I believe I went through what I went through and go to, to share my story and encouragement that I got from God is to share my story, which is what I started in doing.

Whereas I’ve started doing and sharing it on social media. I’ve also, I’m in a process of starting a Facebook group out by my anxiety, and for the people who love me to help people who are suffering from anxiety and also help the people who love us, who don’t understand what anxiety is, how they can help.

Good support system. So I’m in the process of putting information out there to share it. And I invite other people I’m hoping. And hopefully you, I can invite you to that particular Facebook group and you can share some things, some tips and things. So my hope was that allowed me to go through these things to be an inspiration and share my testimony to others.

So even though I was my own self-worth, I mean, my own, my own worst enemy and self-doubting myself, he encouraged me and created opportunities for me to do what he asked me to do. I pulled that together by saying, be your best to. Your best believe in yourself, never give up on yourself because where you started doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where you’re going to eat.

Who would’ve thought that I would have written two books? Like I said, I wasn’t a good stuff. I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t all that, but when I stopped giving my feelings, doubting myself, being my own worst enemy, as I have accomplished and plan on accomplishing more than I ever thought I could by just allowing myself to be a vessel for God, always believing.

Carrie: Thank you. I always believe in you. And believe in what God has called you to do. If I didn’t believe that God really wanted me to do this podcast and spread these positive messages, I would have quit it a long time ago, because I can tell you that it’s not always easy. And there’s definitely been a lot of roadblocks. And it’s been a huge learning curve for me along the way. But what the piece that’s kept me going really believing that God wants me on this path and I will be on it as long as I feel like he’s leading me to do that. And the day he says, it’s time for the podcast to go, you know, the podcast will have to go, but I really just kind of wanted to echo some of the things that you were saying about that.

There’s all kinds of things that we don’t believe that we can do, but if God has called us to them and we have spiritual confidence and assurance in our faith then God will give us the tools that we need to be able to move forward and do those things that he’s asked from us.

Monica: He will put you in the right position, right?

What you need in order to accomplish.

Carrie: It’s been a really great conversation on self-care and just some good encouragement at the end. So thank you so much for sharing with us.

Monica: Thank you so much Carrie for having me. I appreciate you.

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I hope this interview sparked some ideas about how you can better care for yourself.

I want to say a special thank you today to two of our supporters on buy me a coffee, Tony and David. If you aren’t familiar with the, buy me a coffee website, this is a website similar to Patron. If you’ve heard of that one where people can go on and donate to podcasters and other creative. There’s a lot of time, energy and yes, money that goes into hosting a podcast.

So if you feel so inclined to donate, you are welcome to, and the link to that will be in our show notes. I am so thankful to God for his provision of resources, to be able to do this podcast. Thank you for listening to this.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee.

Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam. Until next time it may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Written by Carrie Bock on July 14, 2021. Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Today, we are privileged to have pastor and author, Steve Hinton as our guest. We had a meaningful conversation about doubt and faith. Pastor Steve also shares his journey of finding hope in the face of doubt and childhood wounding experiences.

Doubt as a normal part of one’s faith experience
What is the root of doubt?
Why wrestling with God is a good thing?
How to hear and discern God’s voice in the midst of doubt?
Embracing the mystery of faith
Seeing God through pain and suffering
How can we help those who are hurting see that God is good?
Pastor Steve Hinton’s book, Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt

Links and Resources:

Pastor Steve HintonBook: Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt

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More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 37

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 37. I imagine that if you’ve been following God for any length of time, at some point or another you’ve had some questions and doubts come up. How do we know that God is really good and maybe hard to come to a certain understanding of God due to past woundedness getting in the way. We’re going to talk about doubt today with pastor and author, Steve Hinton.

Carrie: Welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Steve: Thank you very much. First of all, I just want to give a thumbs up to you. The whole question of anxiety, especially today, the past couple of years, everybody’s past year, everybody’s been worried about the physical aspects of COVID. Suicide hotlines are off the charts and nobody’s really talking about the whole anxiety.

I just want to encourage you and what you’re doing. I think there is a connection to me, I’ve been in vocational ministry about 27, 28 years now. So I’ve seen all kinds of anxiety and, and had to work through some of that myself, just from some wounding in my early childhood. I grew up in the Northern Panhandle of Texas, which is kind of a conservative area.

I grew up with a general biblical Jesus worldview, but I really didn’t know Christ until I was a young teenager. I had to work through some father figure issues in my life. Couple of dads were in there. And then when my mother remarried, when I was about seven or eight, He adopted me. Jim Hinton adopted me the father one year, but he had to work through his own issues from his own childhood.

All that to say is, you know, a lot of times people get their idea of what God is, who God is by the father figure in their lives. So that bled into the book that I had written Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubts and doubts a big topic today. Carrie, I’ve been married for almost 30 years. And we have four young adult children. I’m kind of an adventurous guy and I’m looking forward to having this adventure with you.

Carrie: Awesome. So are all your kids out of the house yet or not yet?

Steve: Just about our third is going to junior college here in the Houston area. The youngest is a college in another state.

My oldest works for a church camp in the state of Washington. And then my second one completed a tour with the Marine Corps and he’s about to do a contract, a security contract, actually for the army in Kuwait here in a month. So we’re almost to that empty nest place, but you know, we can see the light.

Carrie: There’s a line at the end of the tunnel. I’ll just watch out sometimes they become a boomerang generation and boom, bring back. So hopefully yours will say stay launched and you and your wife can enjoy your time.

Steve: Yes.

Carrie: That’s awesome that you have been married for so long, having that type of background and having, you know, being involved in your children’s lives because so many people grow up in a broken situation and then they end up repeating that same pattern.

Steve: Yeah. And that was a big prayer for me, Carrie. That was a big goal for me coming into marriage and coming into parenthood thinking, man, I want to do this fight and not saying that to throw my mother or anybody under the bus but also looking at the right care, looking at society as a whole. We just have way more dysfunction played out today than what we witnessed 20, 50, a hundred years ago because a lot of these root issues that we’re talking about the anxiety, the doubt A lot of those are the fruit of people growing up with the traditional nuclear family, not intact like it was a number of years ago. So some of the anxiety is a by-product of how we’ve constructed life today.

Carrie: I think that sometimes when I talk with Christians in my counseling practice, there’s some shame maybe around having doubts about God or just through church ministry. People say, well, I know that I need to have faith. I know that I need to trust God.

They really struggle maybe with some sense of shame about having these doubts, do you feel like that’s a normal part of our faith experience?

Steve: I think it’s a practical part. I think it’s a reality today. And I resonate with what you’re saying there with the shame, and that’s actually one of the reasons I wrote the book so that people would see, here is a vocational pastor, a guy who’s vocationally in the ministry, and he wrestles with some of these questions and he’s come out of the other end. Therefore, maybe there’s hope for me as well. And even on the shame picture, you know Carrie early on in the process when I was finishing up writing, I had to ask myself this question, how raw do I want to be? Because on one hand, there’s going to be people, for example, in ministry or people who seem to feel like they’ve got it all together who might look at what I’ve written in a judgmental way, but then I thought I’m not writing it for those people.

I’m writing it for those people who are really wrestling. Maybe with the journey of doubt, asking, what is the root behind it? And I think you’re right, some people think, yeah, if I, if I really had faith, I wouldn’t be wrestling with this. But asking what is the root behind the doubt?

Just one needing more data, Luke chapter one, God shows up and says, by the way, Mary, you’re going to have. And her question is how will this be? In other words, she accepted what God was saying, but she’s looking for some clarification. Sometimes the doubt and people maybe who are listening in and maybe they don’t know Jesus yet.

Sometimes the root of the doubt is really not data, but it is an expression of rebellion. As long as I could push this issue off, as long as I can pretend to be an atheist or agnostic, I can push off responsibility. And then also, maybe just, again, looking at the root. Is somebody doubting because they see the promises of God,

they’re trying to walk in faith, but they have these triggers and it’s really not so much about God as it is something that happened to them early in their childhood that just totally got them off rails. And they’re not able to connect the dots and, you know, they need to talk to someone like you Carrie to pull all these pieces together to realize that our God in heaven is not our biological father or our mother or our aunt or whoever that might be.

So I think doubt happens, Elijah in the Bible, a huge man of faith, but in First Kings chapter 19, he wanted to die. He was wrestling with fear and he was also wrestling with exhaustion. So trying to acknowledge doubts there. Okay, how do we couch it? What’s going on? What is behind it? And just being honest about it.

Carrie: Just having a sense of prayer of, I believe, but help my unbelief.

Steve: There you are. I liked that. Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah. I know there are some things that I’m definitely wrestling in questioning God about things that I believe that he’s spoken to my life and I don’t see the fruits of that or their fruition of that vision. And it’s really hard, but I think the wrestling part is so important. It’s an important part of our relationship with God. I don’t think it’s wrong to question at times and say, Hey, help me understand this. You know, I believe that you were speaking this into my life, but then this is what actually happened. And that just brings us closer to God to even have those conversations. It’s a different level of intimacy.

Steve: I liked the way you finished that. You know, Carrie, the level of intimacy because sometimes the doubt will force us to move closer. We’re no longer functioning on this vending machine relationship with God. You put in your dollar bill, your quarters, your credit card, and then you get what you want.

And then sometimes like a good parent, God says, no, or God says not now. And part of the trust is stepping back and saying, okay, God, I don’t understand, but I’m going to trust that somehow. We’ve got to reframe things. Maybe there’s something I’m not seeing clearly. Okay, God, I’m going to be patient and wait on you to clear everything up.

Carrie: Right. I wanted to add something to what you said earlier about God is our father, but God is not like your biological mother and father were to you because they’re human and they’re imperfect and God’s perfect.

I would also say that sometimes people have spiritual leaders like pastors or other people in the church that they’ve really been wounded by, and God is not those people either. And so if people have been wounded by spiritual leaders who led them towards paths that were not biblical, or, dumped a bunch of extra rules and legalism on them and excluded them from grace. God wants us those people to have a different kind of experience with him where they understand his true character.

Steve: I think you’re spot on there, Carrie. And even in my own life, one of the greatest mentors in my life, a wonderful man of God, incredibly brilliant, but he’s very stoic, very logical.

I tend to be very ADHD and I want to go save the world and go see the world. So I’m going, into adulthood trying to process this. I don’t function the way my uncle functions. How does that play into God? And obviously, my uncle loves God and I love God and God’s doing this, but not this.

And then I start to doubt, well, did I hear from God, right? Or does God even liked me or what do I do now? So one of the things I do carry to encourage other people is I just try to point them to Jesus again and again, and again, even people who don’t know Jesus, I try to say I get it.

There are a lot of people out there who have wounded you, who have done things, maybe even false teachers, but I try to point them directly to the person of Jesus Christ, both divine and human. And that’s the perfection. No human being, no woman, no man, no matter how good they are is perfect, but Jesus Christ.

Carrie: How do you feel like God spoke to you in the midst of your doubt as you were wrestling with some of these things?

Steve: A lot of it Carrie is just keeping my nose in the Bible on a regular basis, even times when I don’t feel it. We have to ask ourselves what are we listening to. If we’re listening to the media, the world 24/7, that’s going to cost a lot of doubt.

If we’re listening to God’s word, who are we with, I believe we’ve got to be connected to a local body of Christ. So in some of the darkest hours, I try to listen to the still small voice of God, which means you got to shut up and be quiet. But also, we’re trying to hear God’s voice.

Okay. Well, God’s given us the revelation through the scriptures. So being in the scriptures, especially the Psalms, especially the Psalms over and over and over again. And just wait.

Carrie: Waiting is so hard sometimes when you really want an answer. I went through a divorce. That’s something that you probably don’t know about me. It was a pretty traumatic divorce a few years ago, and God told me through that process through basically three different situations like I sensed it in my spirit that God was telling me. You’re just not gonna understand that. And you need to let go of your need to understand because I wanted it to make logical sense and it just didn’t make any logical sense. So there was a mentor at church that also spoke to me as I was trying to process it with him. And he said almost the exact same words that I sense to my spirit. It was just like “Carrie, you’re going to have to let go of this need to understand because it’s just not going to make sense to you.” And I feel like there was one more situation at like came in threes and I was like, okay, God, I’m sorry that you had to tell me three times.

I’m sorry. I didn’t listen the first time, but I hear you loud and clear. This is just something that I’m not going to be able to understand. And that’s something that’s really hard for people with OCD to sit with their level of uncertainty and doubt about the situation. I don’t know if you know that but they call OCD the doubting disease. There are always questions.

Steve: I had not heard that, but that makes sense. There’s probably a connection with that and these control issues that I want to, why am I doubting because I want to control it and I can’t control it.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Just trying to like wrap our minds around spiritual things. Sometimes God is so much bigger and beyond where we are that we’re not going to be able to keep humanly comprehend him fully. We’re only getting the bits and pieces that we can receive. I think there’s just so much more, and I’ve learned, I guess, through some of that process also to embrace some of the mystery of my faith, that it’s faith that’s part of the process is that there are going to be things that I don’t feel know or can’t fully explain and that’s part of my connection with God.

Steve: I think I’d put us to Kado on that. And again, part of the reason I wrote the book was to show, here’s a vocational guy who’s been in ministry for a long time, and he’s still wrestles with doubt. I have more questions now than I had when I first went to Bible college when I went to seminary, but by getting to a place where I’m able to say, okay, God. I’m okay. There are some things I’m never going to figure out, which actually means you’re bigger than I am and being at peace with that. So I think that might be a component of the doubt, being able to just rest in and again, looking at Mary. Mary, didn’t have all the details figured out, but she was able to say, okay, God, I’m your servant. You’ve given me a thumbnail sketch of what’s going on here and I’m going to trust you with the rest.

Carrie: Yes, that’s so good. So I know one thing that can come up in, in therapy and, you know, you had your kind of own share of childhood. What I would call attachment trauma with caregivers and other people have had other experiences in childhood that maybe they went through an abusive situation and they might really be struggling with.

What would you say to someone who struggles with this idea of God being good? Because maybe they’ve experienced a certain level of trauma in their past, and you had some things that you talked about in your book in terms of growing up without a father or having various father figures in your life? And so it’s hard for us to wrap our minds around, like, okay, if God’s good, why would he allow us to go through these very painful situations? Or why would he put us in that particular family that hurt us?

Steve: Yeah. Again, affirming them, listening to them and trying to understand them and be in their shoes. I think sometimes leaders, we try to answer too quickly until we empathize with them and then hear them. There’s the whole theological aspect the fact that we have free will, that’s why people make dumb choices. There actually is no good unless there’s the opportunity for evil, the opportunity to go against what is good because we would just be robots without them.

And then again, reframing that what we do, for example, what we think success is. You may have people in your practice who have huge incomes and huge salaries and they’re on speaking towards and things like that, but they have zero relationships with their spouse or their kids, but would we call that successful? The world would. But in my years of vocation and vocational ministry, any time I’ve been with someone when they’re on death’s door, if there is ever been a regret, it was always a relational regret. I wish things were better with my kids. I wish things were better with my spouse. It’s never a regret of I wish I made more money or something like that. So maybe reframing what is success, what is good. I’ve talked a lot about being in the Bible and I’m thinking of the apostle Paul. If anybody would have their prayers answered, it was the apostle Paul, but he made it very, very clear and talked about the thorn in the flesh.

There was something in his life that was causing all kinds of trauma and he prayed more than once. And God says, “I’m leaving this there for your good and my glory.” So I would tell people to keep their life in the word, keep pressing in, be in the church, because these are people that can encourage you.

And you go back and you look at Thomas, you know, refer to him as doubting Thomas. He said I’m not going to believe. Well, if you look at a context, Thomas was not with the other apostles. The first time Jesus appeared to him, Thomas was out of the community and Jesus came back around and said, Thomas, look at my scars and stop doubting and believe.

But that’s an illustration as to why I say care, you’ve gotta be in community to work through these doubting issues.

Carrie: Community is really, really powerful. One thing I’ve realized, I think through processing literally now hours and hours of traumatic material with people is two things. One, those hard situations are what builds our character.

So if we didn’t have those difficult and challenging situations, we wouldn’t be as compassionate as we are today. If I hadn’t have gone through my divorce, I wouldn’t have the understanding of grace that I have today that I’m really so incredibly thankful for. And it has allowed me to extend grace to other people. It’s taught me so much about forgiveness and so many different things that I could go into there. I talk about it in my initial episode, but if we don’t go through some of those hard stuff like God uses that in a beautiful way to really like the working of things together for good, like Romans 8:28 talks about in our lives.

And if we didn’t have all of that, we wouldn’t be the people that we are today. And God uses those things to sanctify us and grow us closer to Christ. One of the other things that I’ve realized through processing childhood trauma with Christians is often people will have this spiritual experience. It’s like once the trauma part gets cleared up, they’re able to see, look back through a different lens and recognize that God really was there for me.

And he was there the whole time, working behind the scenes. And he was always with me. He never left me. He preserved me through all of the challenging, dangerous, whatever, fill in the blank things that I went through. And that’s a really powerful experience, I think for people as well, to recognize and acknowledge, and just in terms of wrestling with the role of suffering, I guess, in our lives.

Steve: Yeah. There’s tons of volumes on suffering and how that fits in. It circles back around to the whole question “If God’s good, why is there suffering?” And again, reframing our world and in our worldview and in our philosophy and our theology.

The reality that God allows things to happen to refine us and thinking about my own story. I came out of high school with all these doubts about who I am, went into college, and I realized pretty quickly that God had called me to preaching that aspect of ministry. And I was pretty good at that. The art, the craft of homiletics and in writing. And I began to put my identity into that. And then when I go through a period of time and I went through a period of time where nothing is working right. And then I began to realize, it’s not about my identity as the preacher. It’s my identity as Steve, just Steve.

And that’s illustrative of getting to a level of depth, relationship with God If I had not had gone through these tough times. We may say, “Where are you, God? What’s going on?” Well, the bottom line is, there’s a lesson in that.

And we do come out of that with more grace to people, more compassion to people. And we’re able to minister to people at a deeper level that we would not have been able to do so If everything happened at exactly the way we wanted it.

Carrie: Right. What do you hope that people will experience by reading Confession?

Steve: Carrie. I hope they have a smile on their face. There’s a lot of raw material in there, but there’s some funny stuff. And I hope that they’re able to say “I get it. I’d been there.” And you know what? there are other people who’ve gone through the tunnel. I think there’s hope I can get through the tunnel as well.

I hope that it will be an encouragement to people that they will press further and deeper into the presence of Jesus and no matter what they’re going through, they can come out at the end of the tunnel stronger and then be able to share that with other people.

Carrie: Right. One of the things that I appreciated you sharing in the book that I felt like it would be good to bring out is this sense of like struggling with has God really forgiven me for my past mistakes. And this element of it took you a while to kind of work through some past sins. I don’t know how you would say it if like the devil was holding them over your head or you were, but it just was something that like kind of kept coming back up and coming back up for you.

A lot of Christians can really identify with that, that wrestling of really like how can we rest in God’s forgiveness and have that assurance?

Steve: That’s a good question, Carrie. And I think you’re right that I’ve had two or three monumental peaks where I was able to look at things and say, “yeah, I own it.

I did it. That was me.” I think that’s part of the process. We can’t blame other people. We got to own it. And then being able, to surrender it to God and realize that that whole Jesus died on a cross thing. It is finished. That’s a real deal. But again, I want to come back to the community. that’s the beauty of the church.

I’m not talking about my local church, although that’s true, but the universal church that has a body. We encourage one another. And for me to affirm other people and affirm the grace and then receive that back as well. That’s why it’s so important that we have people in our lives that we be people.

And then we have people in our lives to remind us of the things we know. We may have it in our head, but it takes a little bit longer to move that 12 inches down from our head to our heart. And that’s why we got to keep repeating it again and again and again.

Carie: Yes, absolutely. Just keep repeating like the promises that we have through scripture and in Christ. This is so important. We can’t forget those things.

So at the end of every podcast, I like our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Carrie: One immediate thing, here we are, we’re recording this in may, and I know it’s going to launch later, but one immediate thing is a big debt that I took about 12 years ago because I was just so certain I was following God’s lead and everything fell apart. And over the past couple of months, it’s interesting Carrie to see, here are some things I have been praying about for years that it just seems they’re falling into place. So maybe again, part of the reason I wrote the book is to say, here is a narrative to show that God is faithful and we can look at the faithful stories and in the lives of other people. But I think that that would be a situation where I’ve been praying about a few things for years and just over the past month, they’ve just been coming together. And maybe that’s an encouragement to folks to not give up. Just keep on keeping on.

Carrie: Yes, that is really good. And there is something about persevering in prayer and waiting for God’s timing.

Steve: Yes because God’s timing is better than ours. Sometimes we’re not ready. Sometimes we are not ready for it. Sometimes other people aren’t ready for it. So it’s a waiting for it.

Carrie: Absolutely. This was a really great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with us about doubt today. That’s good.

Steve: Well, Carrie, thank you for the opportunity. And again, I just want to encourage you in what you’re doing because it is so vital, especially in our world today, people need hope and thank you for giving that to people.

Carrie: Thank you. We will put all the information in the show notes. The link to where you can find the book and get in touch with Steve, if they would like.

________________________

God in his amazing, perfect timing knew that I needed to have this conversation with Steve when I did. It was such a blessing to be able to talk about these things. And I hope it was a blessing for those of you who are listening as well.

If you’re new to the show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope and developing healthier connections with God and others, specifically for Christians who may be struggling with anxiety or OCD.

For more information, you can find this online at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

If you’re searching for a little extra encouragement in the middle of the week, you’re welcome to follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

34. Sudden Onset of OCD in Children: Is it PANS/PANDAS? with Dr. Roseann Capanna Hodge

Written by Carrie Bock on June 23, 2021. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 34. Sudden Onset of OCD in Children: Is it PANS/PANDAS? with Dr. Roseann Capanna Hodge

I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge, a Licensed Professional Counselor (LPC), Certified Integrative Medicine Mental Health Provider (CMHIMP), and a Board Certiﬁed Neurofeedback Provider (BCN). She is also the founder and director of The Global Institute of Children’s Mental Health and Dr. Roseann and Associates.

Dr. Rosean shares with us her knowledge and clinical experience in treating PANS (Pediatric Acute-onset Neuropsychiatric Syndrome) and PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Streptococcus).

What should parents know about PANS/PANDAS? What are its signs and symptoms?
How are PANS/PANDAS diagnosed? Is there a test for PANS/PANDAS?
What is the treatment for PANS/PANDAS?
PANS/PANDAS in the school setting
Dr. Roseann’s book: It’s Gonna Be Ok

Links and resources:
Dr. Roseann Capanna Hodge
Book: It’s Gonna Be Ok

Support the show

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 34

Dr. Roseann: Wow, I’m so excited to be here, Carrie, and have this conversation.

Carrie: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background?

Dr. Roseann: My name is Dr. Roseanne Alanna Hodge, and this is my 30th year in mental health in supporting kids, their families and adults using only proven holistic therapies like neurofeedback, biofeedback, and of course, psychotherapy.

Carrie: Awesome. What type of training does it take to become a certified integrative medicine, mental health provider? That’s a long title.

Dr. Roseann: Well, you know, here’s the deal. Since I literally have only been an integrative mental health provider my entire career, there was no certification. There was nothing years ago.

I started out with going to the basement in a library and looking at microfiche and doing my research that way. And then I bought literally hundreds of books about integrative care, everything from nutrition to exercise, supplements, genetics, and did a lot of that training. So when these certifications became available because if you’re a licensed mental health provider, depending on what state you’re in and in my state, Connecticut, my license allows me to do work as long as I’ve had training. And so I always try to do highest and best and get certification. So I have certification to be an integrative mental health provider. I also have the Amon certification. I’m also a certified neurofeedback provider. It really just means you’ve done extensive training in a certain area in order to guide your clients, your patients, whatever you call them to that area.

Carrie: Okay. And your specialty is working with children and adolescentsts

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. And families.

Carrie: Okay, awesome. So why did you want to come on the show today and talk with us about PANS or PANDAS?

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. So I am somebody who specializes in PANS and PANDAS, and it is something that is dramatically on the rise.

And what is it? Is that they’re separate disorders that have the same infectious or toxic trigger. And there’s also another one in there, autoimmune encephalopathy, but PANS and PANDAS is a sudden onset of a mental health issue because the body has a misdirected immune response starts attacking itself and has an inflammatory effect, which then can produce a wide variety of psychiatric, neurocognitive and physical issues. And autoimmune encephalopathy is the same, except it’s not a sudden onset and why I want to talk about it. Like I said, it’s on the rise and infectious disease triggers are a very common source of mental health problems in the time of COVID. You know, we’re all seeing people with long holler symptoms affecting their cognition, right? Whether they’re calling a brain fog or they’re having psychiatric problems, I’ve had more than one person with psychosis as a result of COVID but there’s more than that. Right? So we have depression. Yeah, right. And, and there’s, it’s a very, very common source of anxiety, depression, EDD like- symptoms.

And I want therapists and people out there in the world to know about it. And, you know, we specialize in OCD in our center because we specialize in PANS and PANDAS. And other than one or two people who have OCD that come to us, all have a primary diagnosis of pans and pandas. So people are just not making this connection in my mission.

I’m on a mission to change the way we view and treat children’s mental health. I mean, that really is my mission, but I want people to know about this because not only am I somebody who treats and started working with people with Lyme disease almost 24, Is it 25 years ago? Somewhere, a long time ago, Carrie

And then I of course get my own child who gets Lyme disease at 22 months and develops PANS, but It is a horrible journey for any person, a child or an adult that has, you know, PANS and PANDAS, Lyme disease, because what happens is the first people that they see medical people, miss it. Then they get slopped into mental health providers who then say, “Oh, this is a mental health problem”.

They don’t understand the physical components. And you asked about like I do integrative work. I mean, What does that mean? It means that I really am studying about mind and body. And I don’t want to get the spirit out of there, but I’m really working on mind and body connections. And we are not educated enough as therapists, but parents are not educated.

They’re not getting educated that their kid could have a mental health problem. That results from something that could be medically treated, not with an anti-anxiety or antipsychotic, but with anti-inflammatory antimicrobial drugs to address what’s causing that root cause of that mental health problem.

So it’s something that’s incredibly common. One in 200 kids, the research says have it. And even though it’s called pediatric acute onset neuropsychiatric syndrome, it can actually now be an adult-onset. So we’re no longer just making, you know, saying it has to occur.

Carrie: So kids who have PANS or PANDAS when they go to get mental health treatment and the parent brings them in, oftentimes I imagine they’ll be misdiagnosed as either having anxiety, OCD, ADHD. Is that right?

Dr. Roseann: Tic disorder, separation anxiety. Yeah, absolutely OCD. I know there’s a separate category in the DSM for oppositional defiant disorder. It’s not real. it’s a symptom of another issue, So, you know, whether things are your depression and OCD on that spectrum, you have internalizers and externalizers and odd kids, or externalizers. It’s really the behavioral manifestation.

People haven’t done their due diligence to figure out what it actually is that sourcing this anger and non-compliance. Sorry people that are listening. Parents, they’re refusals.

Carrie: Right. So how do people get diagnosed? How do they come to a place of a proper diagnosis? What does that testing process like?

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. So first I have to say whether it’s Lyme disease or PANS and PANDA, there is no single test of the diagnosis. And this is so critical because people will go down rabbit hole after rabbit hole, after rabbit hole, looking for an official diagnosis. And particularly if the source is a tick-borne illness and there are hundreds of types of tick-borne illness.

We really often only hear about Lyme. Sometimes we hear about Bartonella or BBCA. They have very, very much impact to your mental health and some of your more severe psychiatric conditions, including schizophrenia, bipolar and there’s research to substantiate some of the things that I’m talking about.

They have a high rate of tick-borne infection. So. No single test. Okay. Are there tests civil? Of course. But as I mentioned with Lyme disease, Some people say it’s the most genetically evolved bacteria on the planet. And because it’s been around since prehistoric times they’re finding it.

They definitely found it coming over with Columbus in 1492, but people are saying prehistoric times, And so this bacteria can hide inside of a cell. So that means standard testing may not pick it up. And then there’s a whole controversy about what tests people are using and not, but in pans and pandas, there is a panel called the Cunningham panel.

It does not mean if your child is negative on that, that they don’t have PANS and PANDAS. So you have to look at clinical symptoms. And do they meet criteria, PANS and PANDAS? You know, there’s going to be a sudden onset of a problem or a deep acceleration of a preexisting condition. I like to talk about this because people really don’t understand this.

So you could have ADD. And then it’s literally off the charts, right. Or a low level of anxiety and then sudden onset of OCD. And that can be a confounding variable because people like, well, my kid always like saying chest, you know, but then literally overnight. So, and sometimes it’s really easy to see Carrie because.

People will come to me and say, oh, my kid got, the case of somebody who came to me recently, he got COVID and within 10 days he is psychosis.

Carrie: Wow.

Dr. Roseann: So pretty easy to make that connection.

Carrie: Sure. That was really fast.

Dr. Roseann: Yeah, with physicians still wanted to send them to the psych hospital and I was like, what is going on? We got to treat it. So we got him to where he needed to go. I think it’s really important that people find a provider- PANS and PANDAS trained provider. And you can do that by going, there’s a great national organization called Aspire Care where you can go to epidemic answers and they have providers listed there.

Carrie: Okay. That’s awesome. I think that that’s really great. This is a sudden onset of psychiatric symptoms, but it’s based on a physical medical problem and part of the problem that we have sometimes is we don’t always know, is something mental health-related or is something medically related. And we talked about in one of our very early episodes on the show, kind of ruling out medical conditions for mental health disorders.

What are some things that parents might see if they think that their kid might be struggling with this? what are some signs or symptoms to look out for?

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. I want to say that if you’ve had chronic anxiety or chronic stress or long-term any type of physical or mental health problem, you’re going to have physical effects on your body.

Your body is not designed to run on empty. And when your nervous system is hyper stress-activated, you’re going to start getting nutrient depletion. You’re going to get physical problems. You may have hair loss, your thyroid might go down. So whether that’s the actual source or something that’s worsening it. Really taking a functional approach through lab work is really important. So what are signs of PANS and PANDAS? We can only connect the dots looking forward. I mean, looking back not looking forward. And so these are things that people see. So when it’s really sudden, and sometimes people will come to me.

I know when they write down a date that it started. I’ve got to consider PANS. And it wasn’t like, oh, the grandmother died, or you know, they got bullied. Whatever it was, it isn’t something traumatic that happened often when it’s really sudden overnight, and you will hear stories of this, then all of a sudden they woke up.

And this is very common OCD, very, very severe to the point where they’re doing obsessions in compulsive thinking and behaviors. So they cannot function at all. Right? So these behaviors and intrusive thoughts may be going on for hours on it. And it wasn’t present there before, or was present at a very mild level.

So the level of how it destroys your functionality is a big red flag. You also can have regressive behaviors, so you can have a loss of bladder functioning. Right? Frequent urination is one of the hallmark signs. And this can occur in adults too. It’s not just kids, a loss of handwriting or coordination is another one or a loss of academic skills, math and reading, being the two most common.

And then, you know, you’re going to, you’re going to look for things like. Vocal or motor tics, a real extreme level of anxiety. And, and, you know, I mean, as somebody, a professional who spent so much time with OCD and anxiety, these are conditions that are misunderstood. You know, most people think about OCD as only compulsive behaviors, hand-washing and whatnot.

It always starts off as intrusive thoughts, right? And often the nexuses worry it’s anxiety. And then it’s, what we call a maladaptive way of coping with anxiety. So some people are like I’m going to go and work out. I’m going to go pray. I’m going to go to my spin class with my bestie, and we’re going to socialize when I’m feeling anxious and you find these healthy ways to cope. But OCD gets in there and there’s this habituation and it can really ignite like a wildfire due to the negative reinforcement cycle in the brain. And what happens with neuro-transmitters reinforcing us, but what it looks like. And these kinds of things. If there’s sort of a wax and weaning, all of a sudden your kid might need reassurance a lot and they weren’t a kid that needed reassurance, separation anxiety can all of a sudden show up.

One of my dearest friends, her daughter was totally typical and got bitten by a tick and within 30 minutes became a different human being. She developed severe separation anxiety within 30 minutes, her mom is a psychologist. She had to quit her job, and unfortunately, she didn’t really respond to a lot of treatments.

So she wound up getting tick-borne illness and then strep on top of it. So PANDAS, it’s strep only, but PANS is any infection or toxic trigger. And most of these individuals have layers of infection. So they could have scars. Like, my max had nine co-infections from ticks, Scarlet fever, a bunch of other things, you know, it was a lot of work to clean him up.

So a variety of symptoms can result that are mental health-related and they can be quite extreme behavior can be frightening. Not to speak in a way that’s saucy or inappropriate. Because I’m a PANS’ mom, parents will come to me and say, I literally thought my kid had a demonic possession. They just flipped out, you know, just can be very, very extreme, whether it’s an internalizing where they’re scared or extreme rage externalizers and then, you know, psychosis can happen in this as well. And it can be really, really frightening. And the most recent research, early, 2021, which is in my book, it’s going to be okay. Is saying what I knew. That these kids have paradoxical reactions to psych meds.

No surprise, because the issue is inflammatory response, infection and toxins, and every psych med has a toxin load. There isn’t a psych med that doesn’t have a toxic component. And so you add that into a system that’s already flooded and overwhelmed by infections and toxins. It actually worsens things.

Carrie: They can’t tolerate the medication cause their system’s already on overload.

Dr. Roseann: Overload. And, yes, they’re anxious. But the source is not neuro-transmitter genetics. That’s what everybody wants us to believe. So this is surprising to people. When I talk about this, most people, I hope people are listening, and this is why I do this.

You know, why am I doing this? I want you to think about it, right? So if you’re a therapist, you’ve got somebody on your caseload. This is who they are, who they are. And if you’re a parent or a friend to somebody, you might be like, holy moly. That’s what happened to Becky’s kid. And you want to say, this is an episode that I want you to listen to because I learned a lot.

And that information can just really change the trajectory of not only that individual, but their entire family. I mean, this is a devastating thing we knew within like six months that my 22 month-old had Lyme disease. I already was integrative. I already am in the Northeast with the top experts in the world.

He’s 16 and I’m telling you it took 14 years. And I won’t even tell you how much money, because it is not attainable for most people, because a lot of my friends have lost their homes and marriages. It is extraordinary what we did to get him better. And that is the norm and it’s rabbit hole after rabbit hole, after rabbit hole.

And I didn’t have the same issues as other people, because most people are forced to go in network where they’re challenged you belittled. I mean, when you hear some of these stories of what happens to people, it’s frightening. I mean, I, when I talk about cases, I. Give information that hides and protects there’s identity.

I mashed them up. I like to say I’ve had people who were tied down in psych hospitals, even though their titers were showing that they had off the charts. I had one client who had the highest strep titer that the hospital has ever seen and they refused to treat her for strep.

Carrie: So tell us a little bit about what the treatment is usually like for PANS and PANDAS.

Dr. Roseann: So there’s a treatment triangle and it involves antimicrobials really getting at that infection and then anti-inflammatory treatment and then mental health. Because even though this isn’t a biochemical problem, this is very traumatic. There are mental health components, parents need a lot of support.

They may have had a totally typical kid who now is hijacking the family, you know, financially behaviourally everything, and they’re not equipped to deal with this. And so they need a lot of support for themselves on how to really kind of get through this and, you know, really set these loving limits with their child and support them through this.

It’s very, very challenging.

Carrie: Absolutely. Parents that have children with mental health issues or physical issues need a lot of support and a lot of help. And unfortunately, a lot of times are judged is just, well, you’re a bad parent because your kid’s acting out and that’s not the case.

Dr. Roseann: And sometimes kids are called bad. I did a summit and my friend, JJ Virgin was on and Bob Hope’s granddaughter, Miranda hope is on and myself and we all have the same story. All three of our kids were kicked out of preschool.

Carrie: Wow.

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. And my kid was called a feral animal, by the teacher. Now what human being would tell a mother, your kids, a feral animal.

And each of us had horror stories. Right? JJ Virgin’s son was left outside in Palm Springs in September, outside the room locked out because they said he was a bad boy.

Carrie: Wow.

Dr. Roseann: Yeah, so we have to change that, that’s not okay. And one in two children in America has a physical or mental health problem. That’s ten-year-old data. That study is being updated. I can’t even imagine what it’s like right now. So we have to be way more tolerant and accepting and loving.

Carrie: So tell us a little bit about your book, Dr. Roseanne, It’s Going to be Okay, which I love that title. So tell us what it’s about.

Dr. Roseann: Well, thank you. I love this title. So I tell every person that I work with, it’s going to be okay. And that’s the first thing that I tell them because they need to hear that because you feel alone, you feel scared, you don’t know who to trust, and you definitely don’t know what to do. And you know, people find me in all these different ways. It’s unbelievable. And I work with people in person and remote and all different ways.

So this book is going to be okay. I lay out the eight pillars, what I call hope and healing. And I show people how to reduce mental health symptoms using only proven holistic therapies. And it is all there. All science-backed ways are over 40 pages of research citations. So I want people to know this stuff that made it and heard about.

But I can feel comfortable that they’re safe. I can try these out and as overwhelmed as we feel as parents in general, but when you have a kid who struggles, you feel even more overwhelmed, I encourage parents to get this book. Start with one thing. And when we do one small action consistently, it can create a lot of change.

And so I’m really, really excited. This is truly the 30 years worth my work in one book. And I really want parents to know it’s going to be okay and show them how to do it.

Carrie: Awesome. Awesome. So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope. So a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. Well, you know, when you ask me this question, it’s actually hard for me to answer because I feel very connected to God. And so when I struggle in that moment and being a special needs, mom, times two, I have learned. That I have to be in the moment and really try to appreciate the moment. And so I think that I’m most connected when I’m with my kids and I am actually having fun and trying to laugh, not trying to laugh, laughing, just being there.

And so I have the blessing of having a million moments like that every day, being present and connected and having a lot of love around you.

Carrie: Okay. Okay. Hey, so every day, moments of hope for you, with your family.

Dr. Roseann: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I’m so lucky that I’m able to bring hope to people because at a time when I feel that people have the lowest level of hope and trust I’ve ever seen in these 30 years, it’s a conversation that I’m starting wherever I go, which is why I start off by saying it’s going to be okay, because people need to hear that like they’re feeling overwhelmed and out of hope. And I just think taking the moment to be extra kind to anybody who’s in your presence just goes a long way. And I know it sounds really hokey, but people are so lonely and disconnected and scared very much so. And I think they were before the pandemic and the pandemic has really thrown some fuel on this fire.

Carrie: Yes, I would definitely agree with that for sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us today.

Dr. Roseann: Thank you for having this conversation. And if you think that, you know, your child has PANS or PANDAS, find a provider. I say this wherever I am, nobody ever regrets getting help. The only regret is when they don’t.

Carrie: I knew a little bit about PANDAS from my previous work with children. However, I’ve found this interview to be very informative in terms of thinking about, we always have to look at the holistic picture of anyone’s health, whether that’s a child or adult, how are they impacted physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And if you’re looking at things from a holistic lens, instead of only being treating one or the other, usually something ends up missing in that picture. Unfortunately just with the way our current medical system is often doctors and counselors and psychiatrists aren’t always communicating together in the best possible way.

So it’s important for parents to really be the best advocate for their children in providing the linkage between some of those areas.

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I wanted to announce to you all that our next free webinar for hope for anxiety and OCD is going to be sometime, probably in mid-September. I would love topic suggestions for this webinar.

What would you like to dive into a little bit deeper? What would you like to have questions answered on about? So there’ll be a very short, you know, 30 or 45 minutes of teaching for the webinar. And then I want to leave time at the end for questions. So if there’s something that you would like to see some helpful teaching on and be able to ask some questions, feel free to contact me through our website, www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

26. A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

Written by Carrie Bock on April 28, 2021. Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 26. A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

“OCD has been the gateway to God and grace for me.” Peyton Garland author of Not So By Myself shares her story of OCD and her journey of going to therapy.

After seeing a therapist, her mother and grandmother followed after her and sought professional help for themselves.

Peyton’s experience of contamination OCD
What it was like to go to therapy for the first time
Getting help with brainspotting (type of therapy)
Growing up in a strict church culture and how her faith changed over the years as she grew to know God.
Growing up in home with a parent who has PTSD
Ripple effect on her family after she decided to seek help
How Peyton’s husband works with her on compulsions
God breaks into lonely places. He works best in the mess.

Follow along with Peyton on Instagram @peytonmgarlandwrites
Book: Not so by Myself: A safe space where God doesn’t fix the loneliness, but sits with you instead

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Transcript Of Episode 26

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD. Episode 26. Our most popular episodes thus far have been personal experience stories. Peyton Garland shares her experience of struggling with OCD. How that’s impacted her faith, her journey of going to therapy. It’s really good stuff in here, guys. I hope that you enjoy the show today.

Carrie: Thank you for coming on the show, Peyton.

Peyton: Happy to be here.

Carrie: I’d love you to just tell us a little bit about yourself.

Peyton: Sure. I am Peyton Garland. My husband’s name is Josh. He and I live north of Atlanta in Alpharetta, Georgia. We have two of the most obnoxious but sweet puppies in the world, Alfie and Daisy. So we are dog parents and proud of it. My husband is a pilot and I’m an author. So we’re both finding the careers that we love and thriving in them.

Carrie: That’s awesome. Why did you want to be on the podcast and tell a little bit about your story today?

Peyton: I think mental health in this day and age is almost a buzzword. I think it’s something where people are finally willing to talk about it. They’re finally willing to listen, but I also think that the voices that need to be at the forefront of these conversations are people who do struggle with anxiety, who do struggle with OCD, who know what it’s like to be in a therapist’s office.

So this podcast just seemed to embody that ability to have real conversations with people who truly go through this stuff.

Carrie: At what point in your life did you start to notice like I’m starting to struggle here with my thought life?

Peyton: I had always been a worrier and I knew that, but the older I got the worst that got the more irrational the worrying became.

So like I said, my husband, is a pilot. When he first finished flight school, which was about two years ago, the only airport where he could get a job was in Indiana. So states away, hours away. He and I had just moved to a new town in Georgia for a new job for me. So new town, new job. I’m not near my family.

I’m not near my friends. Two weeks after we moved there, he moves to Indiana. I’m being by myself and being by yourself leaves lots of room for your headspace to just go crazy. And at that point, maybe two or three months into him being gone that’s when I said this worrying is not only irrational. It’s starting to impact me physically, too like I’m losing weight. I can’t put back on. I’m not sleeping. I eventually went to a therapist which in my small country town was not a welcomed thing. Therapy is almost seen as defeat like you couldn’t take it, you couldn’t handle it. Your faith in God wasn’t strong enough. I went to a therapist’s office, found out I have intrusive thought OCD.

And what I’ve learned with OCD is that often anxiety and depression are kind of buddies. They sit right beside OCD and they take turns. So I’m just on a big journey. Now I share a lot about that in my new book, Not So By Myself. Just how you’re not really by yourself in the quiet space, even when your brain is super loud.

Carrie: That’s so good. So it was a, you had a big stigma hurdle to even get in the therapy office coming from a small town, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Be the tough girl.

Peyton: Oh yeah. Well, I’m so glad you said that. In my book one of the chapters, I talk about how all three of my great uncles and my grandfather were drafted into the Vietnam war. All four gone at the same time and when they came home, they quickly learned that in order to not talk about everything they’d seen, they were just to keep quiet. That silence was strength. Those two just seem to parallel and they passed that idea down from generation to generation to generation.

So my generation about the third or fourth generation, we’re sitting in a culture now that saying, “Hey, it’s okay to say I’m not okay. It’s okay to go get help.” And I think I actually was the first person in my family to go to a therapist. And the beautiful thing is I had a parent to follow after that. [00:04:37] I had a grandmother follow after that, and that was a very beautiful thing to kind of see loved ones, say, “Hey, you know what? There’s some things I haven’t been okay with. I have a dad who has PTSD and traumatic brain injury from serving in the military. So lots of people now getting help for hard things they’ve been dealing with for decades.

Carrie: I love that ripple effect in your story. It’s like one person starts in the family starts to experience some relief and change and hope, and then other people say, “oh, hey, that sounds really good. I want to get on board with that and maybe I’ll try therapy out as well.”

Peyton: Absolutely.

Carrie: Do you remember that experience of just being so nerve-racked and were you super scared to start talking?

How was your therapist able to help you feel comfortable even sharing some of these things that you had? You’d really just rattled around in your head and maybe talked to your husband about.

Peyton: Sure. This is crazy. You’re literally outlining my book chapter by chapter.

Carrie: I haven’t read it either.

Peyton: One of the chapters is called green tea and therapy and it’s about my first time in a therapist’s office. Like I said I come from a good old country town. I walk in this therapist’s office and there’s like this spa music in the background. There’s bright but soft colors everywhere. I’m way out of my element.

I was not a yoga kind of girl. But my therapist just asks me a simple question. She’s like, “Hey, is there anything I can offer you to drink?” And I’m a green tea kind of girl. So I said, green tea, just give me some green tea. And I remember death gripping that green tea coffee the whole time.

I don’t even think I drank it. I just death gripped it because one thing I knew and this whole room of nothing I knew. My therapist started with the big question. She had to tell me about yourself like I got to know what goes on in your head. What’s going on in your heart and your spirit and your family.

When I left I had no mascara left on my face. I mean, I did, but it was like down to my chin on my neck. I still hadn’t touched the green tea. It was just an hour of me unearthing everything that had been there for over a decade, honestly. So it was a wild, uncomfortable, but relieving experience all at once. It was a whirlwind for sure.

Carrie: Was that when you got the diagnosis of OCD?

Peyton: Yes. So I have a dear friend, her name’s Wendy Nunnery. She’s an author too. She has it. And I had met her for coffee one day and we hadn’t been friends for long and she was just vulnerable enough to say, “Yeah, you know I struggle with intrusive thought OCD.

And she was telling me all the things she worries about. And I went, “oh my goodness.” Number one, I’m not by myself because I have been thinking some off-the-wall things and I can’t talk myself down from them. I’m always afraid of running people off the road. I overthink being near knives. I overthink changing a child’s diaper.

All of these things that I just thought I was literally psychotic, like there was some serious problem. This wonderful woman of faith is sitting in front of me, a mother, a thriving wife and she just lists everything that’s been rattling in my head for years. And so I sat back still wasn’t sure about therapy, but kind of a pin that had to be what I had. And once Josh left it was very, very unhealthy.

Like I was just in a place where I wasn’t functioning. I said we gotta get help and that’s exactly the diagnosis I received.

Carrie: So in some ways that was probably a little bit relieving to know what you were dealing with because when people don’t know what they’re dealing with, then they throw all kinds of vernacular labels on themselves.

Peyton: Right. My dad, you know, has PTSD and he had that when I was growing up. So I was around it. But PTSD almost stems from something very traumatic, which is what happened with him in the military in his line of work. But for me, nothing traumatic had actually happened to me and I couldn’t figure out why I was having a hard time.

As a good kid with good grades and a good family. I mean we had struggles with what my dad went through, but I must have been a bad person if I couldn’t control what was going on in my head. The level of relief and the pressure that just fell off me, that was a God thing. There was no way around that.

Carrie: Did you struggle spiritually during that time? Like why has God allowed me to struggle with this? And those kinds of questions, maybe that people with OCD face.

Peyton: Yeah, I’m just going to send you my book when this is over. My fourth chapter is called church games. And so again, I grew up and not hating by any means on denomination, on religion, but I went to a very small brick and mortar countryside church. Women were told not to speak. I was told it was King James, or it was literally not the Bible and how dare you touch it. Women cannot lead worship. I grew up in such a rigid church culture that when you combine that with OCD, you’re quite terrified of God.

I got a credit card in the mail or a debit card a few months ago and my security code, well, I guess I can’t say it, but it had lots of the apocalyptic kind of numbers going on and I literally almost sent that back in the mail. I was like, “no, we can’t use that like, I can’t touch that.” Wild, irrational thoughts OCD we’re paired with this very rigid church culture.

And I was afraid of God for years like he was just somebody that I was told to love, but I was scared of loving him because I was just scared of who he was or at least who he seemed to be. So yeah, I struggled spiritually for a long time.

Carrie: Like maybe tying into some of the obsessions, like is God mad at me or am I going to go to hell.

Peyton: Exactly. Very perfection-oriented. But like I said not just a perfectionist or perfectionist with OCD which can take on a completely different level of fear, anxiety, and all the like.

Carrie: So what you’re saying is that you have intrusive thoughts, but you don’t actually have any compulsions. Is that so?

Peyton: It’s funny. So there’s several different branches of OCD like intrusive thought OCD there’s harm OCD, contamination OCD. With me, I do have a form of contamination OCD. I always had. I washed my hands a lot as a child If I spilled anything on me like a chemical. Cleaning panics me. I was afraid to be near chemicals.

So when COVID hit, my contamination OCD, the compulsion went through the roof like I had always been a hand washer. I’d always been a clean person. I started keeping a chart of how often I washed my hands. When the world shut down and we went home, I washed my hands an average of 57 times a day and I spent two-plus hours a day following through on compulsions with cleaning, with mopping, with wiping everything down with wiping my hands down my phone down. Just putting Josh in a Clorox fog as soon as he came through the door.

So there are definitely compulsions, but I see them most with the contamination OCD.

Carrie: How has that affected your, your marriage, and your relationship there? Have you had to kind of train him on how to help you at times?

Peyton: He is very gracious and I’ve been very blessed with someone who’s willing to listen.

He has been mentally a very strong man which is fantastic. Obviously, he worries about things. There’s hard things for him, but he is very mentally stable, which is what I need. I’ll be honest when we first got married is when it really started kicking up. I’ve learned change kind of messes with my OCD like getting married, buying a house.

I had just gotten a new job. Just all the things. And bless his heart he just thought it was birth control. He thought maybe it was him. I thought it might’ve been him. We didn’t know. Maybe only a few months later is when the piloting thing happened and he was gone and I got help. So for us it’s funny, but for him it was a breath of relief when I found out I had OCD. He went, “oh, okay. It’s not me. It’s something else.” Not that we can fix OCD but we now have something we can work with. We have a name and a face to it and he has been so good. What I love about him is he respects when I’m having anxiety.

He respects when there’s a compulsion where I’m just like, I have to follow through with it. There’s no way around it. But he also calls me to work through compulsions. He calls me to say, “Hey, let’s take a step back and rationally talk yourself down from this like we don’t have to wash your hands five times in a row. We can do four and walk away.

It’s okay. So there’s been a little bit of training on his part, but he’s really been gracious and I’ve been very thankful for that.

Carrie: That’s awesome. We talked about kind of how to support your anxious spouse on a previous episode. So I’m curious about your experience on that.

What was that process like of finding tools and strategies and things to help you in therapy?

Was that really hard and what kind of therapy did you utilize?

Peyton: Yeah, so my therapist and I, we do brain spotting. I don’t know who all knows, but literally, I find a spot in the room where my brain just kind of seems to be at peace and attune. I like natural light, my brain and my eyes always go to a window where there’s natural light and my therapist just says, “Hey, let’s just start walking through what you’re feeling. Why you’re feeling this way.”

And every time brainspotting walks me back to what started a trigger, what started a compulsion, what started the anxiety that’s just built up and is now bottling over. So I love brainspotting because often my compulsion or my thought has nothing to do with what’s really bothering me. OCD is just really good at twisting stuff.

So I love brainspotting. It earths my head. It just brings it back to earth. But also we just learned really healthy techniques. Even things like social media can spike my OCD. Just because OCD can thrive off of just about anything it wants. I do 45 minutes of social media a day. I have a timer on my phone. That’s something she and I worked through. 45 minutes was a healthy number for me. When the timer goes off, I’m done with social media. Josh and I have what we call a contamination zone in my house. If there’s something that I just feel is completely contaminated and I don’t want to touch it. He puts it in a corner, in a room and we let it air out because in my brain letting it air out is safe. Just little things like that have made a huge difference for us.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I’m going to get somebody on the show to talk about brainspotting now. I think that that would be an interesting episode, too.

Peyton: That would be fantastic. I love it. I love brainspotting.

Carrie: Yeah. We have talked a little bit about EMDR on the show and it’s similar.

There’s some similarities in terms of just kind of like really tapping into that brain level response and the nervous system. And like you said, when you trace OCD back, it doesn’t make sense. You’re like, “wait a minute, this goes back to that time when I was this age and this experience happened.”

I love that it really gets down deep underneath the presenting issue. Because it’s not actually about the stuff or the cleanliness. It’s about that piece underneath it, whether it’s a lot of times like dealing with uncertainty or loss of control or those types of triggers can be really prominent

Peyton: Well, that’s what wild is. Every time we brain spot and we work it back, it is either a very harsh church experience I had, or it’s just growing up in a household with a dad with PTSD that was undiagnosed for years. Every time, my brain has trillions of off-the-wall thoughts, but every one of them works its way back to one of those two things.

Carrie: Wow. Do you feel like you were a particularly sensitive kid growing up, more sensitive to people’s emotions or kind of absorbing everything?

Peyton: I’ve taken a bunch of Christian spiritual gift tests and discernment comes back every time no matter which one I take. But my mom did say as a child, I tended to know without actually knowing, like if there was a relative who was going through a hard divorce or someone just lost someone.

My mom said as a child, I gravitated to them. She said I’d walk up and sit in their lap. I would sit and talk to them. I mean, maybe that had to have been just God. Just knowing who needed some extra love. My mom swears as a child I could just walk in a room and I just knew who needed even just a “hey” or a hug.

Carrie: That’s good. We had Mitzi Van Cleave on the show before, and she talked really about how OCD was a part of her sanctification process. That there was this process of growth through affliction is what she talked about it. Can you talk about a little bit about that in terms of your spiritual journey?

Do you feel like you have some similarities there?

Peyton: Sure. I’m so glad you asked that question. It’s one of those things where I think Paul mentions in the new testament that he had a thorn in his side. I think that’s a favorite thing to debate is what was the thorn in the side. But I think regardless, the reality is we each have a thorn in the side. I think on this side of heaven, we will eternally fight or struggle over, wrestle with and I think OCD is mine. There’s no magic pill for OCD. I’m not going to wake up one day and my brain is just going to be super chill.

The bittersweet thing that I love about this thorn in the side is it constantly calls me back to a place of grace. As a perfectionist with OCD, I’ve had to come to grips with the fact I cannot be perfect. The church is saying is you’re a human. You’re not perfect.

I always knew that, but that always wasn’t good enough. I was like, “no, I’m going to prove the church wrong. I’ve got this. I can do this.” OCD literally said “ha, no” like here’s something very irrational and very imperfect for you to imperfectly worry about. You know, go have fun, good luck. And so OCD quite forced me to accept that I’m not perfect. And because of that, growing up in a really harsh church culture and stepping away from it and wrestling with OCD, I can now look at God and say, “Hey, you know what not only am I not perfect, but you are.” And as churchy as that sounds, there’s so much grace in that because God has not put the standard of perfection on me.

And I know I can’t meet it, especially with the OCD. And so now it’s just grace and I had not lived under grace. I had not lived by grace. It was just a catchy phrase that at one point I thought would be a good tattoo on my wrist. But OCD has been the gateway to God and grace for me. And so for that I am always grateful.

Carrie: How did you make that perspective shift in terms of your view of God? Did that come through getting around like a healthier church environment?

Peyton: Sure. When I was about 16 or 17, I just told my family, I said look I’m out. Not out, like I’m not piecing Jesus out, but I’m not here. I finally started studying the Bible and the Bible and the guy behind the pulpit were not lining up.

[00:20:43] So I said, look, I can either believe a man who’s like everybody else or worse, or I can believe God. And so I’m just going to go with God. That sounds like a smart decision. That’s the Sunday school answer, but it’s one that I’m going to adopt for myself. And so I stepped away from that church. I found a much, much healthier church which made so much of a difference. Within that church, I found women my age who were also not afraid to mention that they struggled with mental health and that right there was probably the ultimate game-changer. I was being around women my age who had been perfectionists. I don’t know if you know the Enneagram, but I am in an Enneagram one on the personality chart.

We are reformers. We are the spearheads for all that is just and good and right. But I was blessed to find women just like that, who turned around and said that I’m not always good. And just and right. I do struggle with mental health. And even through all of that God still sees me as good because he loves me and because he’s good.

And so that was the revolution in my spiritual journey.

Carrie: I think finding the character of God. And I’m really connecting with the character of God who he says he is in the Bible and experiencing that in your life as absolutely a game-changer. I’m curious. This is a question for you from the trends of the podcast. Our podcast is for people with anxiety and OCD. But the most popular episodes that have been downloaded have been personal stories about people with OCD who have experienced that. Even more popular than our very first episode just like, Hey, this is the podcast. This is who Carrie is and all of that. What do you think? That’s because people just aren’t talking about OCD and the church.

Peyton: Oh, absolutely. When I wrote my book, not said by myself, my editor called me and she said, Hey, sweetheart, you got to lighten up on the church, just a smidge. You gotta pull back just a littlest. So I’ve talked about that with much more grace. Thanks to my editor. And my book, I think we talk about the soul in the church, but I also think if God created the soul, he created the body and he created the mind.

And we are called to honor all three of those. We are called to keep all three of those healthy to keep them in check. Iron sharpens iron, I think mind, body, and spirit. And I don’t know where the disconnect happened with the church and that aspect. I don’t have a clue, but nobody talks about your mind and your physical health either.

And if those two aren’t in check often the spirit’s not in check. And so we’re walking around almost wobbly like one-third of us is functioning like it’s supposed to in the church and we wonder why things still feel like they’re falling apart.

Carrie: And they’re not working. And this concept, which I’m still just wrapping my mind around is like the holy spirit lives in me like in my body that just really blows my mind.

So I’m like, does how I treat my body that has to interact with my spirit? I know it doesn’t change the holy spirit. I’m not saying that, but I mean how I interact with my body changes my spiritual health. It affects my spiritual health as well as my emotional health and physical health.

It’s just all interconnected. And I think you’re right, I think we do try to look at those things separately and don’t interact with each other. And if we want to be more healthy spiritually, we also have to be more healthy emotionally and physically. It just makes sense. I love that.

Talk with us about this concept in your book of not being alone that seems to be a big thing for you. Why did you title the book the way that you did and how does that incorporate with what you wrote about?

Peyton: I think OCD was probably one of the most isolating things in my life. Like I said, even growing up, I was a worrier. My friends called me the worrier.

I was the mom friend like I was always 45. I was always isolated because I was the mom. I was the worrying one. I was the one who can not just ever let loose and have fun now, not in the name of sinful pleasure, but I was just never relaxed. I can never breathe and that was one of the most isolating things for me.

And so as I got older, life got harder, stuff got more serious intrusive thoughts just have a field day with that. I mean, because there’s just so much more stake. Once I got married like sexual OCD stuff went through the roof because never had I ever had sex. And now I have, and my brain is like, “Oh, here’s 5 million things we can take and run with.”

So I continue to get lonelier and lonelier because all of these thoughts made me take a step back, take a step back. I was not like everyone else. Something was wrong with me. Should I call the sheriff on myself like what is going on? And so when Josh physically left and I was physically by myself, that was probably one of the darkest places in my life because I had always been mentally and even spiritually isolated just from the church I grew up in and struggling with OCD. And here I am not physically alone and it took therapy. It took God’s grace. It took two or three very dear friends that made you realize you literally cannot be alone. And it sounds so churchy. It sounds so cliche.

But like you said, if the holy spirit is truly embodying you then I am called to believe that he is embodying every lonely space I’m walking through. So he is quite literally paving the way and telling loneliness to just step aside like it doesn’t have a place here, not in my heart, not in my spirit, not in my physical body, not in my mind. And so that’s how I chose the title, Not So By Myself.

Carrie: So huge. I hope that as people hear this podcast and these stories that they recognize that within themselves too like I’m not alone. I’m not alone in my struggles and that God’s here with me and God can break into those lonely spaces. And I love that he just meets us where we’re at, you know, all of our mess.

Peyton: That’s what I say. He works best in the mess. That is where he thrives.

Carrie: So cool. Towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is the time where you received hope from God or another person.

Peyton: Oh, that is such a good one. OCD is just so wild. So harm OCD for me, I’m always afraid of running people off the road. I’m always turning my car around to make sure I haven’t run anybody off the road. There was one day I was in my little black Chevy car that I had gotten in high school and I was driving home and I just had one of those intrusive thoughts of I tried to pick up my phone because someone was calling me and I thought, “oh my gosh.”

[00:28:00] like for those five split seconds, you have no idea if you were looking at the road, what could have happened? So I just hit the brakes. It’s a quiet country town, but I still hit the brakes in the middle of the road. And I went to go whip my car around and somebody sideswipes me because I’m irrationally flipping my car in the middle of the street.

And I thought, “oh, my word. I have just caused a wreck. I have no clue if this person is okay. I don’t know how I’m gonna tell a cop I have intrusive thought OCD and that’s why I’ve had a wreck. So I pull off on the side of the road and this woman pulls off and I see her and she’s older and I think she’s 85.

I have partially killed her. She’s going to need a hip replacement. This woman gets out of her car. I’ve damaged her car like this was on me. She comes over and she grabs my hand and she looks at me and, and even in a small town, this was one of those random chances where I didn’t know who this was.

She said, “I just want you to know that this is God’s providential hand, that you’re safe and I’m safe.” And she prayed over me and just left. And I’m sitting here going, ”my insurance is going to go through the roof.” I definitely just clipped the back end of her car. So no insurance going up. I didn’t pay anything for this woman’s car.

I swear she was an angel. So that was just hope because that was a hard thing. Mentally, I was in a bad place. I made a bad decision as a driver and this woman just prays over me, gives me grace, and just drives off. And I will never forget that day. I will never forget her face, the street name, any of it as long as I live. That was some serious hope that I will not forget.

Carrie: Wow. What a testimony of God’s grace. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. I think this has been great to talk about all the different things that you talked about and I’m sure it’ll be an encouragement to somebody.

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I enjoy getting to have these guests on because it really reduces the stigma and shame surrounding being a Christian and struggling with OCD. Maybe you or someone you know have had an experience such as overcoming a phobia or working through social anxiety, I would love to feature some of those types of stories on the podcast.

If that’s you or someone you know, you don’t have to be an author to be on the show or a public speaker or a therapist. None of those are requirements. Just reach out to me via our contact form on the website at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com I look forward to hearing from you and being able to share more stories of hope with you in the future.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

25. Making Church a Welcoming Place for People with Mental Health Struggles with Dr. Steve Grcevich of Key Ministry

Written by Carrie Bock on April 21, 2021. Posted in Anxiety, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 25. Making Church a Welcoming Place for People with Mental Health Struggles with Dr. Steve Grcevich of Key Ministry

I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Steve Grcevich of Key Ministry. Dr. Steve is helping churches learn how to minister to people with disabilities including mental health.

He shares about what moved him to begin his mission of connecting churches with families of kids who have physical and mental disabilities.

Different scenarios and social interactions in church that trigger the anxiety in kids and families.
Barriers that make it more difficult for kids and families to be part of the church.
How to help kids and families with anxiety and other mental health issues feel welcomed and included in church.
Communication strategies and inclusion plan to help people feel more welcome in church.

Links and Resources

Key Ministry
Book: Mental Health and the Church

Support the show

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 25

Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 25. Today, I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Steven Grcevich. I believe that’s how you say his last name. He also told me I could call him Dr. Steve. Dr. Steve is going to tell us about a ministry that God laid on his heart to start that helps churches know how to reach and effectively minister to people with a wide variety of disabilities including mental health. So without further ado, let’s get into the interview.

Carrie: Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dr. Steve: Carrie, thanks so much for having me on your podcast. I wear a lot of different hats. So in my tentmaking job, I am a child and adolescent psychiatrist. So I’m with physicians. I went to medical school, actually, I got accepted into medical school when I was 17 years old. It’s a little bit of a Doogie Howser kind of thing through an accelerated program. I have a private practice in suburban Cleveland. I teach at a couple of different medical schools, the child psychiatry fellows. I helped teach evidence-based medicine to medical students. Again, maintain a practice. I do some training for Mental Health Professionals and some of the surrounding counties. And then the other thing that probably takes up about half of my time is that almost 20 years ago, I was involved with starting Key Ministry, which I think we’re going to talk a little bit about today.

Carrie: So, how did you get to that place of seeing a need for key ministries or a desire to start that?

Dr. Steve: This is probably about 25 years ago. I was on the elder board at my church. This is mid-1990s after the fall of the iron curtain. We had a whole cohort of families who went over to Russia and Bulgaria and adopted some kids with some really complex emotional behavioral, developmental issues, trauma out of orphanages in Russian Bulgaria after the fall of the iron curtain.

And I’m sitting at an elder board meeting and the person who at the time was our children’s ministry director ended up on our ministry board later on down the road. I came in to do a presentation to talk about some of the struggles that these families were having in terms of staying engaged with church. As you can imagine that these were folks who had been very devoted, highly committed. These are people who are volunteering. They’re serving in leadership roles.

And then kids with other mood disorders kind of in that order. And so not like anything that we would go ahead and submit to a journal or as some sort of formal study. Over the next three months, I just did a survey of families as they were coming through the office for routine follow-ups.

There was one question, “what impact did the challenges that brought you and your child to our practice have on your ability to participate at your church or place of worship?” And I was floored by some of the stories that we started to hear. One in particular that was really memorable was that there was a family that I was seeing where they had a couple of little boys with pretty severe ADHD.

They started describing to me sort of what their experience was like going out, trying to find a church for their family on the west side of Cleveland with these two boys in town. Interestingly enough, they ended up at our church. And we’re giving their testimony at one of the services, talking about the impact that the supports that our children’s ministry was able to offer it had on their family. And the comment that the mom made is the people in the church oftentimes think they can tell when a disability ends and bad parenting begins. And so we oftentimes find that when we have kids with different emotional behavioral issues, and in my practice, I see this a lot, where kids who are anxious oftentimes manifests in anger, moodiness, and irritability.

I’m sitting there, listen to this stuff became obvious that there was an issue. And as God would go about orchestrating things around that time, I had one of the three original research grants for Adderall, which became the most commonly used medicine in kids with ADHD.

I got asked to travel around the country, do a lot of lectures to different medical groups, physician groups. And in the introduction, wherever I went I would say something about the work that our church was starting to do with families who were having some of these kinds of struggles. And the church started getting inundated with requests for help. Basically, Key Ministry came about.

Our current mission statement is that our mission is to help connect churches and families of kids with disabilities, for the purpose of making disciples of Jesus Christ. At the core of that, and sort of our original focus on what we saw as the unmet need was that our focus was on helping churches welcome and include families of kids with quote, unquote hidden disabilities, emotional behavioral, developmental neurologic conditions where the disability wouldn’t be obvious, say in a still photograph of that child. Johnny is just an absolutely wonderful lady. She did great work in terms of helping folks with physical disabilities be part of that. Around that time, the early two-thousands, we began getting like more and more awareness of some of the challenges. For example, families face when they had kids on the autism spectrum as more and more kids got diagnosed.

So, the next wave of this is that churches became very proficient or many of them became proficient. There were good models for serving families where they had kids who quote-unquote special needs. Basically kids with more severe intellectual or developmental disabilities, but by far and away, like if you take a look at the child population in the United States, 75% of kids with disabilities have primary mental health disabilities.

And there’s some fascinating research that came out a couple of years ago. Andrew Whitehead, who was a sociologist at Clemson University, went through about a quarter-million interviews with parents from three waves of the National Children’s Health survey. It’s done every two to three years by the federal government.

This is where they get these statistics that like one in 46 kids has autism, stuff like that. And interestingly enough, one of the questions that they ask as part of this is, “has your family attended a church or a place of worship at any point in the last year?” And what they found was that families who had a kid on the autism spectrum were 84% less likely than other families unimpacted by disabilities to ever set foot in a church. But it was 72% for families where they had a child with depression, 55% for kids with a disruptive behavior disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, and 45% when we’re talking about kids with anxiety disorders. There’s actually 19% for kids with ADHD. In comparison to that, when they looked at other disabilities, like for example, Tourette’s disorder, kids with intellectual disabilities that didn’t have much of an impact in terms of church attendance at all.

And so when you start talking about sheer numbers and so in the population we serve, children and teens, probably about one in 10 meets criteria for a significant anxiety disorder. The number of kids and families who are impacted by these mental health concerns is far, far larger than the number of families who struggle with what we have traditionally referred to in the church as special needs.

So within the context of what we do in our ministry, there’s a lot of stuff that we do that we put on an annual basis. We couldn’t do it last year because of COVID, but the largest disability ministry conference in the United States.

We have a group that we moderate for 2100 special needs and disability ministry leaders from around the country. So we do all kinds of training consultation, offer all kinds of free support to churches.

My role specifically had been to work on developing a model for churches that are interested in doing mental health inclusion. So we have other folks on our team who will consult and work with, again churches that are looking to serve kids with sort of the traditional intellectual developmental disabilities.

[00:10:44] My piece has been developing a mental health inclusion model that churches can follow if they want to serve this larger population of families. That is probably, and it’s interesting, there’s guy Lamar Hardwick who’s up. Fascinatingly, he’s an African-American pastor of a mixed-race church in Atlanta who was diagnosed with autism in his mid-thirties, wrote this book called Disability in the Church.

And one of the points that Lamar made is that the largest minority group in the United States are individuals and families affected by disability. With all the conversations that are going on in terms of talking about diversity and the need for our churches to become more diverse, one of the places we need to start is by thinking about folks who have this range of conditions. Where many of them, the presence of their mental health condition or the presence of a family with that condition has made it impossible for them to be part of church.

Carrie: Can you talk a little bit more about that as far as what specific things were they encountering that were keeping them from being able to go to church? Like lack of feeling welcome maybe because their child had a disability or just their child being too anxious to be in a group setting.

Dr. Steve: So what if we take a look at sort of mental health, if we think about sort of mental health collectively as a whole, in the model that we put together, part of what we train churches around is the idea of there being seven barriers. The first one is stigma. In that, for example, there was a study. This is maybe six or seven years old from Lifeway research, where when they interviewed quote-unquote unchurched adults, 55% of them endorsed the notion that people with mental illness aren’t welcome at church.

Carrie: That is so sad.

Dr Steve: And interestingly, in some of maybe the more theologically conservative denominations that are more focused on outreach and inclusion, like going back to theological devotee, sixties, seventies, and eighties tend to be the ones that have less insight and less understanding about the nature of mental illness. But no, this stuff is not necessarily a sin problem. There are things that people are born with. And as you know, in your practice, that there are ways in like the lives of individual people who wrestle with this so that there are ways that God uses this stuff in terms of drawing people into closer relationships and deeper relationships. So the churches that are most interested oftentimes in doing outreach and inclusion are the ones that in some instances are the places where maybe mental health concerns tend to be more stigmatized. So that’s the first one.

The second one is anxiety. And I would argue that that in and of itself. Of all these barriers that’s probably the most common one and the anxiety disorders out of all the different mental health disorders are the ones that are most likely to keep the most people out of church. But we’ll talk about that a little more in detail.

The third has to do with executive functioning and self-control. Pretty much every mental health condition that you think of ultimately, or to some degree will impact people’s capacity to self-regulate emotions, to modulate impulse control, to be able to plan to exercise self-discipline. And folks with conditions like ADHD would be sort of the prototype of this.

Again, there are many other mental health conditions, significantly impacted. If you’re a family and if you have a kid who has a hard time sitting still, or not shouting out in the middle of a worship service. I had a very memorable case. This was a family that came from out of State to see me.

This may be 15 or 20 years ago where the father was a Southern Baptist pastor in Appalachian, West Virginia, Virginia, somewhere like that, where he came up to see me. And actually, his family doc gave him the money to come on up to our practice where they had adopted a little boy who had pretty severe issues with ADHD and impulse control or aggressiveness.

Shortly after they adopted this five-year-old boy, he punched the son of the guy who was the chair of the elder board. And they fired the father for not having appropriate spiritual control over his family when it was obvious that they adopted this kid who had been through very traumatizing situations.

But when you think about like in the Bible and you think about scripture, like the book of James, self-control is very closely acquainted with sort of godliness and spiritual maturity. Ability to demonstrate that especially for kids becomes like really important. If they’re going to be able to fit into a lot of activities at church.

The fourth is sensory processing. Folks think about this as being an issue with folks on the autism spectrum, but it turns out that folks with pretty much every condition and DSM can experience issues with sensory stimulation. And it’s particularly common, in addition, autism among folks with anxiety disorders and ADHD.

And so that for some people like the bright lights, the very loud music, the very sort of stimulating worship environments. You see in a lot of the contemporary churches, for some folks becomes absolutely overwhelming to the point that it’s aversive.

The fifth is social communication. We think about churches by nature are intensely social places.

And so if you’re somebody where maybe you feel uncomfortable with self-disclosure with other people or you have a more difficult time picking up on tone of voice, inflection of voice, body language, facial expressions, you’re really going to struggle in terms of like the interpersonal stuff that goes with those being active at church.

The sixth is social isolation because as you know, think about folks with common mental health conditions, people with depression isolate, oftentimes as a symptom of that depression. Folks with social anxiety oftentimes they’re going to avoid situations where they’re going to come in contact with and meet a lot of people and make a lot of new friends. Families who have kids with mental health issues.

The kids are less likely to be involved with athletic activities are less likely to be involved in extracurricular activities. They are less likely to be in situations where they meet other families who will invite them to church. Not to mention the fact that for a lot of the kinds of families that like your practice serve and that we serve, mental health treatment can be fairly expensive.

And a lot of times, I mean that there are lots of treatment costs that these families are incurring either for themselves, for their children, and either finding babysitters or childcare is too expensive. Or when you have a kid where you just can’t let any 14 year old down the street come over and watch them. It was very hard to become part of the social fabric of your neighborhood or the community.

And then the seventh one is past experiences of church because I don’t know about you, but about 30 minutes into child psychiatry school, I think I figured out that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree and that the kids who have these struggles oftentimes have parents who have these struggles.

And so part of the challenges is if the parent had an issue that kept them from being part of church, when they were younger, it’s highly unlikely that any of their children in particular kids who may have a similar mental health condition are going to be part of church. So those would be sort of the big ones that we ask churches to think about. Stigma, anxiety, executive functioning of self-control, sensory processing, social communication, social isolation, and past experiences at church.

Carrie: One thing I will say about that, that’s interesting is there’s this thing with church, it seems like with leadership and wanting to reach people where you either get one of two situations with a church.

You either walk in the door and it’s almost like everybody attacks you. Like you have the football like it’s “so we’re so excited to see you and, oh, it’s such a great day. Have a good Sunday. Here’s your bulletin.” You know that you either get that response or you kind of sneak in the door and then you sneak out the door and no one talks to you. But then maybe you go home and you go, “No one talked to me at church today” you know, I guess they really don’t care about me.” So how do churches like find this balance and this fine line between reaching people and letting them know that they’re loved and cared for in that environment without overwhelming them?

Dr. Steve: One of the first things that we try to help churches to do, because the level of understanding, again, from church to church, depending upon what kind of education the pastors have had, the people who are serving on staff at that church can vary so much. One of the places that we’ll start is by helping to kind of educate them about some of the things that they would anticipate being struggles in folks with common mental health issues and to kind of try to put them in their shoes here. I’ll give you an example of a little exercise that we would use as sort of like a little starter, like if we’re going in and if our team we’re doing a big training or if we were training an individual.

Let’s imagine that Samantha’s family lives down the street from your church. Samantha’s a single mom. She has a nine-year-old son and a seven-year-old daughter. The nine-year-old son got invited to vacation Bible school loves it, wants to go church every week and is begging mom to take the family to church. The nine year old son has ADHD and dyslexia. His seven-year-old sister has a separation anxiety disorder and the mom has social anxiety disorder and agoraphobia.

Think about all of the potential places where something could go wrong and where they might encounter a problem the first time that they would go to attend a church. And so one of the ways I talk about this with families in our practice on the church leaders is that as you know from a lot of the research has been done in terms of neuroimaging. To try and understand what’s different in the brain in folks who struggle with anxiety disorders is that we know that they’re basically hardwired to overestimate or distort the level of risk involved with entering into new or unfamiliar situations.

And so think about what that’s like if you’re visiting a church for the first time. For their family, one of the places that’s going to start is I would bet that mom is going to be looking on that church’s website before she even thinks about putting her kids in the car and going, because the kinds of things she might be worried about would be, “Am I going to stand out?

Will I be dressed differently than everyone else? Will my kids be dressed differently than anyone else?” But there are enough sort of strange stories floating around. It’s interesting, my son-in-law and my daughter in medical school, down in Alabama. And I heard stories from my son-in-law when he first moved down there, it was like looking for a church and, “oh, he was a newcomer.”

And so everybody stood up in the church and came around him to lay hands on him, to welcome him. Yes. So again, if you’re a mom with social anxiety, even the most remote prospect of something like that, or having somebody walking around during prayer time, handing you a microphone, and asking you to introduce yourself, it would be terribly overwhelming.

So you get over that. You figure out how you’re going to dress and you get to church. How many social interactions does mom have to navigate the first time she goes before, she herself, is able to go into the worship center and sit down. So you have the greeter in the parking lot. You probably have like the greeter or the person at the main entrance or the entrance for children. Now because of there for the first time, she has to register both of her kids.

So that there’s like the children’s ministry volunteers who are at like the check-in and the worship center. And of course, they’re going to want to introduce them to the volunteer people who are teaching their Sunday school class. And maybe if the church isn’t too large, probably the guy, the children’s pastor or the student pastors probably going to come over and want to introduce themselves.

So by the way, when the daughter finds out that the expectation is that she will be hanging out with like other girls in the first or second grade Sunday school class, and not with mom on the other end of the building in the worship service, the daughter starts to have a meltdown because of her anxiety at the prospect of being apart from mom.

So by this time, they’re already like five minutes into the worship service, Mom gets to the worship center. And mom with agoraphobia finds there are only middle seats open in the front five rows in the worships.

And then is there some time during the service where people are expected, like pre-COVID to greet each other and people are shaking hands and hugging on your way out. You have people who are a lot of places have like a welcome center for like new visitors. If you fill out the card, somebody may go ahead and give you a phone call afterwards.

And what if you find out that like people who joined the church, one of the things that you’re expected to do is you’re expected to very shortly thereafter become part of a small group with a group of total strangers in which there’s an expectation for folks to disclose fairly personal things. That’s why you tend not to see so many anxious people oftentimes at church.

And so part of what we’re doing when we’re working with churches is that, in contrast, to something like special needs ministry or something that’s a standalone program. This is not a program. This is a mindset. And so that we’re trying to get pastors and folks on staff at churches to understand some of the things that are going to get in the way, because like the best inclusion strategies are going to be things that are going to help everybody.

And in particular, one of the reasons why the ways that we had traditionally done disability ministry didn’t work and don’t work for the folks that we’re talking about is it the last thing that my patients want to do is to be part of something that’s going to single them out as being different.

And in fact, my kids and teens, what they want more than anything else to be treated just like everybody else. So, you can’t put them in a special needs ministry or you can’t expect the folks who we’re working with kids with autism or developmental disabilities to have a good handle on what do you do with the kid with profound social anxiety or the kid on the autism spectrum with 147 IQ who has no social skills and is very awkward in terms of how they interact with other folks.

Carrie: Have you had churches that did certain things to help with kind of getting people through that front door. That’s probably the scariest part is kind of the whole process of entering the worship area for the first time, dropping off your kids, those types of things that you just mentioned. What does that look like in a more anxiety sensitive, I guess.

Dr. Steve: Okay. So coming back to like what we were talking about before. The more people with anxiety can visualize an experience, especially if they’re going to an unfamiliar place, the easier it may be for them to be able to get over that hurdle. So one of the things that we talk about when we’re working with churches and one of the components of what we have them think about doing is a communication strategy.

One component of that is to take a look at your website. And you want as many pictures, video. You want folks who are exploring the website to be able to have a good picture in their mind of what it is that they’re going to be able to experience. And so this is where this would be especially true is that I have kids in my practice where for example, they’re okay at going to church. And by the way, one of the ways that you figure out who the anxious kids are at church is walking into the worship center of the sanctuary, like when it’s time for the sermon and see who’s still sitting next to their parents. That’s probably like a pretty good bet. I have kids where maybe they can get to church and, you know, they can sit with mom or dad, but the prospect of going to like Sunday school would be overwhelming.

One really memorable kids. So there was in like third grade. This ADHD separation anxiety, some dyslexia kid ended up doing well with some cognitive behavioral therapy ended up in a private school that specializes in working with kids with learning differences. Didn’t hear anything from the family for three years.

Kid is in sixth grade and at the church where the family’s going, he’s not part of Sunday school, but he is going every Sunday with mom and dad. And the biggest event of the year for middle-school ministry was this weekend retreat. And the mom and dad were friends with the middle school pastor who put a great deal of pressure on them to have their child go.

Well, the kid was still struggling with lots of separation anxiety. And when the kid came home one day and considerably larger at this point, when mom informed them that they needed to go to the retreat, the kid became extremely agitated and aggressive. And if mom’s brother had to have just happened to drop by the house, this boy was so upset that she might’ve gotten seriously hurt.

So, the kid has separation anxiety. If we added the details that the middle school retreat is for a full weekend on an island in the middle of Lake Erie that you can only reach by ferry that only runs during the daytime. Can you imagine?

Carrie: There’s all these barriers.

Dr.Steve: Yeah. So for example when you’re asking people to do something, that’s like a little out of the ordinary.

So with a middle school retreat or a high school retreat, or like churches where people go on mission trips, the same thing applies that an anxious kid would want to know. What am I going to be doing? Where am I going to be eating? Where am I going to be sleeping? Or they’re going to, you know, are they cabins?

Are there going to be bugs around? What’s going to be happening all day long? So that, to the extent that you can go ahead and help folks to visualize that whether they’re serving in a soup kitchen or going on like a weekend or like a week-long retreat to like Appalachia, or whether it’s like two days with other kids from middle school and high school. The more you can envision of what you’re going to be experienced and the more you can prepare folks the better. So, the same thing when you think about this with, in terms of say kids who might be dealing with some degree of anxiety. Making sure that you have maybe other kids around who are greeters, who come from a number of different schools.

So the kids are likely to see familiar faces when they come in the same way. Like for example, I think about some of our kids with anxiety who have difficulty transitioning when they’re going to a new school. Giving them the ability to come and check the church out, maybe in the middle of the week, when there aren’t a lot of people around and either to like meet in person or maybe meet by video their Sunday school teacher so that, here’s where your room is at.

Here’s where you’re going to be going. Here’s what you’ll be doing. The more preparation you can do with someone, for example, who struggles with anxiety, the easier time they’re going to have with it.

Carrie: These are really good ideas. I think in terms of being able to visualize things I used to have before COVID and I went fully online.

I used to have all kinds of pictures on my website of the office. And I actually paid a professional photographer to come in and take pictures so that people could kind of see the journey from literally like the parking lot to the waiting area, to the hallway where my office was in the suite.

And it was really neat because the photographer actually told me that whenever his wife goes to a new restaurant, she looks up the pictures online just to kind of familiarize herself with the area. And I thought that that was really interesting. So, I think it’s a great idea for churches to use things like pictures or videos, which is a pretty simple solution.

To snap some different pictures and put it on the website to help people feel more welcome or they know what to expect when they’re walking in the door.

Dr Steve: Yeah, I would add, I mean, there’s some very simple things that churches can do in terms of implementing a communication strategy that are very helpful when you’re dealing with families that are impacted by anxiety, other mental health conditions. In an earlier Lifeway survey, when they asked family members of adults with serious mental illness what they most wanted from their churches was for their pastor to talk about mental health-related topics from the pulpit. It gives everybody else permission to talk about it.

There was a fairly large, interestingly enough, Southern Baptist church here in Northern Ohio that we worked with, who they ended up developing an inclusion plan, where they won the regional award for cultural competence from the National Alliance for Mental illness.

So like some of the things that they did speaking into this is that they did a five-week teaching series on what the Bible has to say about anxiety to address the issue of people feeling more comfortable about self-disclosing. I was there on a Sunday at their worship services because I was training about 75 of their children and student ministry volunteers about how, what they could be doing in terms of interacting, including kids in their ministry.

So I went to a worship service and they ended up renting a video about three minutes long that day with one of the guys who was in their worship band, who talked about his experience with panic attacks and how that impacted his faith for a period of time and how he worked through it. The guy who is a founding pastor of the church did this wonderful. It’s about five minutes long. It was a Facebook video that they produced specifically for folks in the congregation of the church to share with their friends and neighbors who might be struggling. And he started off, “Hi, I’m Rick Duncan. I’m the founding pastor of Kyla Belly Church. And I want you to know that those of you who are struggling with mental health concerns are welcome at our church.

My father was a pastor. He struggled with depression. We know what this is like.” So something as simple as that, that that’s. So de-stigmatizing put in the hands of the people of the church to share it with their friends and neighbors who they know are wrestling with this. I mean, they’ve done a fabulous job. So, in addition, they have, they actually have a licensed therapist

who’s on staff at the church to be able to see folks who have issues. They have a celebrate recovery group. They offered NAMI groups. We are seeing like churches in our area. There are a couple of wonderful ministries that we work with. One is called Fresh Hope and the other one’s called Mental Health Grace Alliance. Where there are now networks like hundreds of churches that are doing Christian-based mental health support groups for teens, college students, and adults with mental health issues and support for their families.

And so, I mean, it’s just wonderful to see the way that like the resources are exploding. And, and I think that it helps that there probably enough folks on staff at churches with personal experience of this firsthand. That they get how it can be an issue for other people.

Carrie: I love that. I love that because what you said about. Some things being said from the pulpit or from the stage, it gives permission for everyone else to talk about it. And if we don’t talk about these things in the church, it just makes us feel like, okay, well we just, we just don’t talk about that here. It’s kinda like parents when they don’t talk to their kids about sex.

It’s just kind of like, well, that’s a taboo subject, I guess that’s off the table. And we don’t realize a lot of times how impactful that is. And especially because too often, we put people in leadership on pedestal pedestals and think they don’t have any problems, but they have problems too just like everyone else.

They have struggle and sin and things that God’s working on in their life. It’s so powerful when we’re able to have authentic vulnerability in the church. And I hate that so many times there’s too many barriers to respite to be able to do that. But it’s life-changing when that happens in a positive and healthy way. Too many of these things that you listed and this, the seven things, really keep us from being able to connect in community with other believers, the way that God has designed us to be in community and to stay connected and to grow closer to God and grow closer to each other.

Tell us about a little bit about your book, the Mental Health and the Church.

Dr. Steve: Okay. So mental health of the church is basically sort of the detailed version of our inclusion model that we share with churches. The first part of that, we talk about that there are seven specific barriers that oftentimes make it more difficult for families and individuals impacted by mental health illness.

We also give them seven. We also give them seven specific strategies or ways that they can like, think about how they might think about like responding. And so that, so that some of the things that are like really essential would be like having the church commit.

That they’re going to do an inclusion plan and that there’d be some education of the leaders of the church. The second has to do with the little acronym is teacher. So the first is setting up an inclusion team. The second is looking at sort of the ministry environments or the nature of the physical spaces in which ministry takes place.

So are there ways of making them more sensory-friendly? Are there ways, for example, to design we’re involved with a church where we were like helping them redo their middle school and high school ministry area so that kids who have attention issues would take away more from the teaching and the experiences that they have?

A stands for focusing on activities that are most essential to spiritual growth. So that if you want folks to be in part in a small group, it’s very important to train the leaders of your small groups, in terms of like how you welcome someone who might have issues with anxiety or someone who might be withdrawn because they’re struggling a little at that point in time with the exacerbation of depression.

C has to do with the communication strategy we touched on. H has to do with offering practical helps that in the Lifeway study.

One of the largest disconnects between what pastors believed about their churches and what family said about their churches was that most pastors believed that their church had a current list of mental health facilities and professionals that they could refer people to. But 70% of families said that that wasn’t the case. One of the things that like the church that I go to does is that before COVID we had large respite events where we would have like 85 kids at the church on a Friday night. And probably the majority of them had a primary mental health issue, where again, the parents were able to get an evening out and then.

Our most popular blog post a couple of years ago was entitled, We had no casseroles. And it was about 60 minutes segment that was done, where they were talking about the struggles that parents in Virginia were having like the teens and young adults getting mental health service. And so the whoever from 60 minutes was interviewing the one mom and she goes, “You know, when our 13-year-old daughter broke her leg in a skiing accident and was in the hospital for a week for surgery every single night, somebody from our church brought us food. Six months later, when she overdosed and was on a psychiatric ward of the local hospital, we had no casseroles.” And so like, why do we, as the church think about like treating those things so differently.

So what are some practical things that we can do to help them? There is education and support, offering like a fresh hope group, offering like a grace group through Mental Health Grace Alliance, having NAMI doing their education and family support groups, making sure that the folks who are in leadership positions in the church get the training they need to understand.

And then our has to do with releasing your people for ministry. For this to work, folks on staff at churches have so much on their plate that they’re overwhelmed that the people need to take ownership of this because God has positioned all of us in terms of where we work, where we go to school in our neighborhoods. We all know people who struggle with.

And I actually think the best inclusion plan is having a trusted friend coming alongside you the first few times that you go to a church. Who can help to navigate the overly exuberant door greeters and some of the other challenges and help their friends and help their loved ones to be able to navigate some of the things that might make them a little more uncomfortable.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s good. That’s really good. I think all of this information is really helpful and I’m glad that you started this ministry and God put it on your heart because I’m sure it’s grown and there continues to be a need for it as more churches are becoming open to how can we include all people.

As we’re winding down towards the end here, at the end of every podcast I like our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Dr. Steve: Well, I think that the thing that brings me the most hope is seeing the way some of the churches that we serve and other like-minded ministry servers are embracing and understanding this cause. That when we started doing this, there, I mean, there’s literally nothing out there that we have a group that we moderate for mental health inclusion, ministry leaders that not as several hundred members. We’re seeing churches implement plans and we’re seeing them welcome more people.

We’re into the hundreds now in terms of churches that are hosting Grace groups and, and, and, and, and hosting fresh hope groups. And when we get invited to like different conferences and have the opportunity to train, there are more people signing up for this mental health stuff than for any of the other things on the program, but these conferences.

And so it’s really encouraging that after a very long time when we see churches get it. I was at a very large church, training over 200 volunteers, one weekend it’s a church people would be familiar with that was very interested in doing this. And so I stayed for worship on Sunday and it was interesting because the lead pastor wasn’t there, but he knew what was going on. At the beginning of the worship service, he starts it off by saying “I’d like to start by praying for anyone who’s with us today who might be struggling with depression.” He didn’t have to do a whole sermon on it, but simply by doing, just simply by saying something like that the folks who were there that day, who may have been wrestling with stuff knew that they would be welcome and knew that it was okay to talk about.

Carrie: That’s good. That is very hopeful. Thank you for coming on and sharing your wisdom. And I’ll put all the links in the show notes to Key Ministries and the book and how people can get in contact with you.

Dr Steve: Well, yeah, that would be awesome. And you know, I’d like to get together and say, hello. My daughter goes to Belmont University in Nashville, and she’s hoping to become a psychologist.

We have issues with anxiety and depression and things like that. So, I do get a chance to be in your neck of the woods fairly often. Ms. Carrie.

Carrie: You’re welcome to sit down with me for lunch anytime. We’ll get together.

Dr Steve: I’ll look forward to it. Thank you.

_______________________________

My hope really for this episode is for people to share this type of information with their pastor or ministry leaders, small group leaders, children’s ministry leaders.

Your church really may not know that this help and support is available. And so this episode may be an open door for you to start to talk with the people in your congregation about some of your own mental health struggles. So, if it helps to share the episode with them and say, Hey, sometimes this is my experience at church.

I hope that this episode helps you do that as well. So I promised for our 25th episode that I would be giving something away and I am, I am giving a $25 Amazon gift card away to one of our email subscribers. So if you’re saying, “Carrie, how do I get on the email list?” It’s super easy. You go to www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

There’ll be a box up at the top where you can put in your name, and your email address, and then you will automatically get a free relaxation download. It’s something that I use with clients that people have found particularly helpful. You have two weeks to become a subscriber to qualify for the Amazon gift card.

And I will be letting the winner know by email and also posting about it on Facebook and Instagram as always. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed Benjamin Bynam. Until next time. May be comforted by God’s geat love for you.

19. Thriving as an Introvert in an Extrovert World with Holley Gerth

Written by Carrie Bock on March 10, 2021. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 19. Thriving as an Introvert in an Extrovert World with Holley Gerth

On this episode, I had the privilege of interviewing Holley Gerth, author of The Powerful Purpose of Introverts to discuss her own experience of burnout from trying to be an extrovert after becoming a published author.

How the introvert brain processes information differently than the extrovert brain
Why introverts are more susceptible to anxiety and depression
How to communicate to an extrovert who is asking for your opinion on the spot
Why you should actually show up early to a party if you are an introvert
Examining the connection between fear and excitement
What you might need as an introvert on vacation, during the holidays, or at a conference

Resources and Links:
Book: Quiet
Book: The Introvert Advantage

Support the show

See more:

10 Ways to Have a Calmer Mind and Body in 5 Minutes or Less

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 19. Today’s show is all about introversion. And if you’re wondering what in the world does that have to do with anxiety, we’re going to explain that in the show that there’s a connection between introverts being more likely to struggle with anxiety or depression.

Sometime back, I had picked up a book, The Powerful Purpose of Introverts and found this book to be so validating of my own experience and also provided some practical tips on how to thrive as an introvert. So I knew that I wanted to ask Holley to be on the show and she so graciously agreed. So here is my interview with author Holley Gerth.

Carrie: So Holley, I wanted to start by telling you a story that I think will help us dive into this conversation about introverts. I was sitting in my friend’s living room and I’ve known this couple for probably about 10 years now. And we were talking about theme parks and they said, “Oh, Hey, you know, what do you think about going to this theme park?” And I said, well, I said, do you know, that’s a lot of people to be around and it’s outdoors and it’s hot. And I said, if I have kids it might be a different story because I would suffer through it for the kids, but I said it as an introvert with all that activity going on around me, going to a theme park does not sound very fun. And my friend looks at me, the husband’s super serious and says, “You’re an introvert? “Yes, I’m an introvert” but it was just so funny to me because we have all these misconceptions about what it means to be an introvert. And here’s somebody that knew me for 10 years and wouldn’t have pegged me as an introvert.

Holley: Yeah, I think that’s a great story that happens so often. And the example you gave of a theme park is such a good illustration of the brain differences between introverts and extroverts. So they feel best when there’s a lot coming at them because it releases more dopamine in their system, which is their preferred neurotransmitter. And for us, it’s just a little too much sometimes.

Carrie: Right. The external stimulation of having to process everything that goes on around you and picking up even on little minute experiences, even conversations, sometimes really good conversations with friends that are maybe more rich and deep, I’ll go home and I’ll be thinking about that for a half an hour to an hour, whereas I think other people just kind of they’re like go home and go to sleep. And Carrie has to have like processing time, which is just different.

Holley: Yes, we do. Our nervous systems are more sensitive. And so we take in more. They’re like nuts with small holes and that’s why introverts reach, they’re done points pasture. And then we need to do that processing, like you described where we empty our net a little by thinking through things, and then we’re ready for more.

Carrie: Yeah. I know that in your book, you talk about how introverts are more prone towards anxiety and depression. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Holley: Yeah, it’s actually related. It seems they’re still studying it, but it seems related again to that more sensitive nervous system. So we’re just more impacted by the things that we experience and some of our brain wiring. It’s just a vulnerability and that’s part of my story. And for a long time, I wanted to get rid of that part of me completely. I was like, “God must have messed up” and I want to get rid of it completely. But over time I realized it’s actually tied to my strengths. So if you picture the core characteristics of who you are is like being on a continuum and in the middle would be that nervous system that introverts have. And on the left side of the continuum would be anxiety and that could be labeled struggle. But on the right side of the continuum, there would be a label that says strength. And that’s where things like you described that perceptiveness and empathy and ability to notice things is. So I think for introverts, when it comes to overcoming anxiety, depression, really saying this is tied to some of my strengths, and it’s not about changing who I am, but moving toward the strength sides of those core parts of who we are that can go in either direction.

Carrie: Yeah. Those strength parts a lot of times are often overlooked in a society maybe that caters a little bit more towards extroverts.

Holley: Yeah. I think so but it’s surprising that actually about half the population is made up of introverts. We’ve just learned to act like extroverts when we’re in public, because like you said, our culture is more extrovert centric, but I think that introverts and extroverts are actually an intentional, complimentary pairing on God’s part that he made both and we’re better together. So I think that when introverts dare to be who they are and extroverts do the same, then we’re all a lot better off.

Carrie: I love that because I have had similar experiences I think to what you just shared of I feel awkward in social settings, or maybe I don’t know what to say. I struggled at one period in my young adulthood, really of making conversations with people, not knowing how to do kind of the small talk thing. [00:06:03] I’d love the one-on-one deep conversations but I didn’t know how really to interact in a group of people. I actually went through a period where I made myself talk to strangers which sounds really funny, but it was my way of practicing small talk. And I knew that I wasn’t going to necessarily run into or see these people ever again. [00:06:28] So that made it a little bit easier to kind of like practice some of that stuff.

One of the things I liked that you said in the book was that you try to bring an extrovert with you to a party but they also appreciate having an introvert, which I thought was really cool too.

Holley: Yeah. I usually bring, I call them my designated extroverts.

[00:06:52] So if I’m at a conference or somewhere like that, then I look for an extrovert and it does work out well because they want to kind of flip from conversation to conversation and talk to as many people as possible a lot of this times. And then if there’s one person that wants to go really in depth and tell me a long story and talk, maybe and cry for an hour, then they’re like, “you got this one.”

[00:07:16] We both have our strong points. And again, those are stereotypes. Of course, introverts can learn to network, like you said, and extroverts are of course caring people too. I do think that when we come team up and help each other out that that can be really useful. And the reason why we prefer those conversation types for extroverts, they use a brain pathway for processing that shorter, faster, more focused on the present [00:07:46] So they really easily do that quick, small talk. It’s also why they like talking on the phone more than introverts and introverts use a pathway that’s longer, more complex. It takes into account the past, present and future. So we need a bit of time to respond, but often when we do, it adds depth and insight context to what we’re saying in that conversation [00:08:10] So again, it’s something that can be frustrating at times, but it’s also strength. It’s what makes you a great counselor that you have the ability to use that longer pathway and go to those deeper places with your clients.

Carrie: I absolutely believe that because there will be times where I’m outside of session and I’m thinking about a client and their situation in a little bit more depth, and I’m able to have some mental clarity. [00:08:37] And the nice part about my job is I don’t always have to think on the fly. I can come back and say, “Hey, I was thinking about this thing, and I think it might fall in this area, or I think it might be helpful if we shifted direction over here a little bit.” It’s super frustrating when you’re in a corporate environment or even sometimes in church, you’re in meetings and people are spitting out ideas and sometimes that processing speed is a lot faster.

[00:09:06] And so for the introverts to know, it’s okay I think to come back and say, “I thought about this a little bit more” and to not feel guilty for not being able to think on the fly, like maybe we see other people doing.

Holley: Yeah, that’s a great tip. One thing that I’ve learned through the process of writing this book is that extroverts just want a response. [00:09:30] They don’t necessarily need the response. And as an introvert, I tend to think I have to have my fully formed as close to perfect as possible response before I say anything at all. But actually extroverts just want to know that we’re engaged in listening. And so I’ve found It’s okay to say I need some time to think about it because it really matters to me [00:09:53] or I want you to know I’m listening to you and I hear you. I just need a little bit of time to work through that. And then let’s set up a time to get back together. And so that was freeing for me. I have a daughter who’s an extrovert. And so I’ve learned to say to her, things like that, “I hear you. I am listening.

[00:10:12] Let me have this a little bit, and then I will get back to you. I promise.” So that is one strategy. Also preparing ahead of time can help us. As little in the moment processing that we have to do that can be helpful. I’m sure you prepare for your sessions with clients. And then, like you said, you think about them afterwards. [00:10:33] That idea of saying especially in a meeting, “Hey, I’m going to get back to you by 8:00 AM tomorrow. I want to dig into this a little more.” So preparation, and then knowing you can just use a response. You don’t have to have the response and then asking for time for followup. Those are three good strategies to help with that.

Carrie: [00:10:51] That’s so good. I like having the practical things to say with other people, and that can help in a variety of different relationships that we’re talking about whether it’s your boss or your spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend, best friend, your child like you named. This is just applicable in so many different areas.

[00:11:13] I’m curious for you what that process was of really embracing your introversion in a different way other than looking at it as a deficit, going from that to looking at it as a strength or as a God-given blessing.

Holley: Yeah. Well, I did it by pushing myself into burnout. [00:11:39] So, especially when I first started publishing books, I started getting a lot of speaking invitations and I literally told myself I just have to be more of an extrovert now like that’s the job. And I said yes to everything to everyone without being very strategic about it. And at the end of one year where I traveled like 20 times, I was a keynote at a conference and the next morning in the worship service, I just couldn’t stop crying. [00:12:05] And I felt like God saying, “Go home.” And I knew he meant like go home and taking a nap because you are tired, but also go home to who I created you to be. And I realized that each of us are perfectly designed for God’s purpose for our lives not for anyone else’s, but for ours, we have what we need. And so I went home and I went to counseling. [00:12:29] That was part of my healing journey. I told my close people, “Hey, I’m not okay. I need to make some changes. I spent time with God” and just asking, what have I taken on that you never asked me to. And started saying “no” more strategically and started saying “yes” more strategically and realized that I didn’t have to do all those things in order to fulfill God’s purpose for me that I could be an introvert and still make an impact. [00:12:59] It was more than okay to just say this is who I am and I’m going to build my life around that. So it was a long journey and I wouldn’t recommend anyone do it that way but that’s how it worked for me.

Carrie: I love that. I love that sense of, yes, I can fulfill God’s call on my life. Whoever’s hearing this, no matter what your personality is, no matter whether you’re an introvert or an extrovert, you can still fulfill God’s calling and it’s going to look like

what he intends it to look like for your life instead of trying to follow the pattern of other people. It’s so tempting in the days of social media to look on a profile or a public figure and say that person has it together, or I want to be like them but really we should be striving to be who God created us to be unique and individual. And there’s just everyone, I believe has a gift that they give to the world, that God has given us things to be able to give out to others. And that was just really beautiful how you shared that.

Holley: Yeah, I agree. And even when we look at those around us, a lot of times we assume they’re extroverts and often they’re not. Some well-known introverts include Oprah, Jerry Seinfeld, Joanna Gaines, Abraham Lincoln, Max Lucado, Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps. The list goes on and on. And because we live in a more extrovert centric culture, we do assume, “Oh, they’re in public. They must be an extrovert,” but there are actually a whole lot of introverts doing really remarkable things. And so I think that is something I’ve learned too, that when I see someone that I think, “Oh, they’re an extrovert” to pause and be like, “maybe not”. [00:14:59] Maybe they’re in their zone of what I call brilliance and belonging, where there’s this thing that they do that brings them into a different place but maybe they’re an introvert just like me.

Carrie: Do you feel at times, like God’s calling on, on you to do specific things has been totally scary?

Holley: Yeah.

Carrie: [00:15:27] I feel like that too. I wanted to ask you that because even like putting out this podcast, it’s terrifying. The only reason I continued doing it is because, well, one, I believe it’s got what God wants me to do. And two, I’m having enormous amounts of fun with it, talking to people and interviewing them, but it is scary to do new things or to put ourselves out there. [00:15:53] And I think sometimes as Christians, we may be have been fed this lie that if I’m doing something for the Lord or if I’m following God’s calling on my life somehow I’m supposed to have a hundred percent confidence in that, and I’m not going to experience anxiety and I’m not going to experience fear. [00:16:14] I just wanted to just dispel that myth because it’s a myth.

Holley: Yeah. It is. I once looked at all the verses that say, “do not fear” in scripture and there are almost always to someone who’s already afraid. So it’s not like a command don’t ever feel fear, it’s God saying to us in a reassuring way, you don’t have to stay in that fear because I’m with you. [00:16:40] I realized that we are afraid when something matters to us. We don’t get scared about things we don’t care about, you know? I don’t get scared that I’m never going to get to be an accountant or an engineer. And probably folks who love their jobs are like, they’re not scared.

[00:16:58] They’re never going to get to be a writer or a podcaster. It’s the things that matter most to us that scare us most. So in that sense, the fear is never going away or in a way we don’t want it to, because that probably means that the passion is also going away. And so just recognizing that fear as. As proof that we’re doing work that matters. [00:17:23] And then I would say the day I stopped being afraid is the day I should probably walk away because it’s the day I think I can do it on my own without God’s help like fear keeps us dependent and saying, “okay, God, this is bigger than me. I don’t think I can do it, but I’m going to trust you.” He and through me.

[00:17:41] And then we take the next step forward. But I think fear is just with us when we do things that are worth doing.

Carrie: Right. That connection between fear and passion is so huge because the passion is the thing that God gives you I believe to help you push through the fear. There’s something in your heart that you feel like you have to speak up about, or you have to share, or you have to do. Sometimes that anxiety is something that’s almost a confirmation for me of like, okay, like you said, this is something that God’s put on my heart and put in my life for a reason and a purpose, but I can also, with his help, move through that and move beyond that to the other side and do things that I couldn’t do on my own.

Holley: [00:18:42] Yeah. And it’s really interesting that from a brain perspective, fear and excitement use the same circuitry. It’s just about how we frame it to ourselves. Whether we tell ourselves like if we’re getting ready to speak. If we’re telling ourselves I’m scared out of my mind, or I’m excited. There’ve been studies that show, if you tell yourself I’m excited that it helps, even if you feel like you’re faking it, you may. You know what am I saying?

[00:19:11] I’m not excited, I’m terrified but if we just learn even to change some of that language and link it more to that passion and excitement, because it is the same kind of circuitry in our minds that can help also.

Carrie: I think some people should try that next time before going to a party, “I am so excited to be with my friends,” because that is true. [00:19:32] You’re excited to be with people, hopefully that you love and enjoy. Let’s talk about maybe some practical things that if people are struggling with anxiety in social settings or when they meet new people, those types of things. Are there any tips that you’ve found helpful for you or through your research?

Holley: [00:19:57] Susan Cain wrote a book called “Quiet” about introverts and also one for kids. And she uses the metaphor of extroverts are like helicopters. Introverts are like airplanes. And so extroverts in social settings kind of immediately lift off. They’re just jumped right in and introverts need a runway.

[00:20:17] So to ease into it a bit more and so if you’re an introvert, it can actually help to get to places a little bit early so that you have time to get familiar with your surroundings, to feel comfortable there. See people come in one at a time instead of walking into a crowded room because it’s tempting right as an introvert to come late because we think that will help. But that any kind of preparation you can do ahead of time even if it’s just researching online the restaurant or the venue, or looking at the people’s Facebook profiles not in a stalkery way. I’m getting familiar with these people then that is helping yourself have a runway. [00:21:03] And so I think that’s one thing or even doing research ahead of time, like saying,” okay, what are some questions I want to ask people tonight,” having some things. So when you’re put on the spot, there’s something in your toolkit for using, and then just honoring your done point. Knowing that because we process deeply and we take in a whole lot that it’s okay if we’re just done before other people that it’s okay If we’re just like “I’ve had enough, I’m ready to go home.” For socializing to be more about quality than quantity, I think is a helpful shift. And then finding ways to make bigger groups feel smaller.

[00:21:47] So in a group saying, how can I talk to one person at a time or taking on a role or responsibility, like at the holidays saying “I’m gonna wash dishes” because that means I get to stand by at the sink and catch my breath for a few minutes. Or I’m going to take the dog for a walk or I’ll be the one to run to the store often when introverts have a role or responsibility, social settings become more comfortable.

[00:22:15] It’s that unstructured time where it’s just about like the back and forth conversations that aren’t always our favorite, that can be challenging. So give yourself a runway or look for a role or responsibility when you’re in the setting.

Carrie: One of the things that you mentioned that I’ve found super helpful for me.

[00:22:37] And it seems really silly, but I will become overwhelmed if I don’t look at the menu beforehand. If I’m going to a new restaurant, it’s like there are too many choices and too many options. And I feel like I have to read this whole thing and investigate it. And maybe other people don’t look at menus that way, but when you’re highly sensitive and that’s how you process the information, it’s just easier for me to.

[00:23:05] almost decide before I go to the restaurant, what I’m going to eat, or at least narrow it down to a few choices versus just having to do that all at once. And then usually people are trying to communicate with you as well like “Oh, Hey, how are you doing?” It’s like, okay, I can’t talk and read and think and everything all at the same time.

[00:23:25] I’ve found it helpful at parties. I think I read this in a book a long time ago. I had read a book as part of my process called the Introvert Advantage. I don’t even know if that’s still out but that book really helped me understand myself. And I think one of the things they said was don’t be afraid to sit down and let people come talk to you.

[00:23:48] I had an interesting experience at a networking event one time where everyone was mixing and mingling, and I just needed a break from meeting new people. So I sat down on the sofa and this extrovert woman came over and she started talking to me and I was thinking, Oh gosh, I came over here. So I could like just sit down.

[00:24:08] And she interpreted that as like,” Oh, you’re not having a good time. You’re not mixing and mingling.” And somehow like, “It’s my role in this networking event to come over and rope you back in.” So that was just a little, kind of funny misunderstanding, but I think it’s okay too kind of take a break or observe for a little while. [00:24:30] And sometimes people don’t understand that that that’s what you’re doing. They just think that you’re disengaged or not having a good time.

Holley: Yeah, and I think that’s a common misconception. I think one reason why is that brain and nervous system wiring differences means that introverts and extroverts experience happiness differently. [00:24:52] And so for extroverts, happiness looks like enthusiasm and excitement and for introverts calm and contentment. And so that extrovert assumed because you were over there being calm and content that you must not be happy at the party. And so our loved ones can do the same. If you’re in an introvert expert, marriage or friendship, or kids and parents. And so understanding that difference can be helpful. And also as introverts communicating, saying, I’m really enjoying, just watching everyone or just making it overt that we’re in our happy place. It just looks different than it does for extroverts. But a lot of times that’s what’s going on and I love your strategy of menus. [00:25:38] I do the same thing, and I’d never thought about it as an introvert HSP thing, but that makes so much sense. And I think I’m going to do that in broader ways too. Like if I’m going to a conference, I’m going to say this conference is a menu. I don’t have to eat everything on it. What do I most want to consume while I’m here and what will be the right amount for me that I get what I need, but I don’t over indulge in a way that makes me not feel good by the time I’m going home.

[00:26:11] And I think you could do the same with a vacation, with a lot of different things. So I love that strategy.

Carrie: That’s so true of conferences because they will literally have like, okay, and here’s the breakfast for the new people. And then here’s all of your conference schedule and the special lunch. And then the dinner evening thing. [00:26:32] And I look at that and I’m like, “No, I don’t want to go all all to all of that.” It’s like when you’re having your evening 8:00 PM thing, I want to be in my PJ’s reading and decompressing because I’ve been around people all day long. What are you thinking?” So that’s really funny too, that you mentioned conferences because that’s been my experience of looking at them. [00:26:54] We have way too much stuff on this menu. I’m not going to go to all of that.

Holley: And so to saying, I’m going to pick and choose. What’s going to add the most value and not worry about the risks. Again, it’s that quality over quantity, such an important strategy, especially for introverts.

Carrie: I know that things like. [00:27:13] Trips or being around family for long periods, even people that you love and value my spouse. And we have introvert time. There’s times where we just kind of want to go to a separate space in the house and just read or relax. And we just kind of check in with each other about that. Like, “Hey, are you cool if I go here and read” :Oh yeah. That’s fine.”

[00:27:37] I just kind of need to decompress. And we don’t always have to be around each other all the time. And there’s a peace and a communication about that. I’ve had vacations with friends where like, I can think my best friend and we kind of had an understanding of just like, we need time alone at the end of the day, we’re going to be around each other all day, doing fun things, going places and seeing people.

[00:28:05] And then there needs to be some kind of decompression time at the end where we’re not having to be fully engaged or talking to each other or doing an activity every second of the day. I think that’s it. That’s important in terms of when introverts are planning things like vacations, to really take that time and be gentle with themselves. You don’t have to absorb every single moment. You can have some happiness in your peace and contentment and relaxation at the end of the day.

Holley: Yeah. And I think it can be helpful to ask each other, what will help you enjoy this vacation, the holidays? whatever it is that you’re going into with another person. [00:28:52] And so that gives introverts opportunity to say, “I’m going to need a nap, or I’m going to need an hour to read every day.” And the extroverts will say, “I’m going to need to have a little adventure every day,” whatever it is. And so a lot of times we just assume that other people are wired like us. And so we are afraid to ask for what we need or are we missing what someone else needs. [00:29:16] And so I think just having those conversations can be helpful.

Carrie: There’s so much about this, as you start to develop an awareness of yourself, your own body even how you feel physically and emotionally, when you’re around other people, how you feel physically and emotionally doing certain tasks. Some may feel more draining to you than others. How you rejuvenate that mental and emotional energy. And if you can develop some awareness over those things, then it allows you to know what you need. And if you know what you need, then you can advocate for what you need. And there’s so many pieces I think that go together with that.

[00:30:06] I hope that some of this conversation helps spark like self reflection in our listeners just of how do I really feel in these situations. With anxiety, there’s a tendency to just avoid and just say, “It makes me feel uncomfortable. I’m not doing it” Party with 20 people and I only know one person, “I’m not going.” And I would just encourage people really to say instead of tapping out and avoiding to say, how can I Set myself up for success in this situation instead like some of the tips that we talked about a little bit earlier. How can I engage socially in a way that’s going to be most comfortable for me understanding that it’s not, it may not necessarily be a hundred percent comfortable.

Holley: [00:31:00] Yeah, that was a big aha for me was my anxiety is realizing that avoidance actually reinforces anxiety because we never learned that will we actually can do it, that we can make it through the party or the speech or whatever it is that’s making us anxious. And so the more we go through things that trigger anxiety and come out, okay [00:31:23] On the other side, that’s what actually decreases it. And so that has been a big aha for me personally, it’s just saying, like he said, okay, this is making me anxious. But I’m going to get some strategies and call for backup if I need it and I’m going to live through it. Usually on the other side, I say “that wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.” What I come up with in my head is usually so much worse than what actually happens. I think that’s great insight for your listeners that you’re sharing that. Lean into it when it’s tempting to pull away.

Carrie: Are there things that you tell yourself or to get through some of those situations. What kind of like what the tipping point is? [00:32:12] How do I know that this is too going to be too much for my system or it’s something that I can manage and kind of get through with a little self encouragement?

Holley: Yeah, I think asking, “Am I making this decision out of fear? or out of intentionally taking care of who I am as an introvert?” because those are two different things. [00:32:38] If there’s an event that would probably be beneficial and I know that, but I’m just like, I’m scared. So I’m not going, then I try not to let myself off the hook, but if I’m saying, “I’m exhausted.” And I know the close people in my life need some things for me, and I’ve got to prioritize my energy and this event is just not making the cut because it’s a “want to” not a “need to” then that’s a different thing.

[00:33:09] And just saying it’s okay to prioritize what I spend my emotion and energy on especially as an introvert. And so just asking, where is this coming from? Is it from a fearful place or is it from a proactive place? I think can be helpful.

Carrie: That’s really, really good. So before we end here at the end of every podcast, I like to ask the guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Holley: [00:33:41] Okay. So my story of hope is my family story. I went through about a decade of infertility, my husband and I couldn’t have her own kiddos. And so we ended up adopting a 20 year old who basically aged out of the foster system. And so she’s now 27. And so she got married and we are Nana and Papi to Ula and Clement. [00:34:10] And so I literally wore a ring on my finger that said hope for all those years. And the ending to our story is not at all what I would have imagined, but it is now one that I would not trade for anything. So I think about that still when I’m in a situation where I’m waiting or I’m uncertain of the outcome, just knowing that God’s working out something probably better than I could have imagined on my own.

Carrie: [00:34:38] That’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. So Holley, tell us a little bit about your book.

Holley: It’s called the “Powerful Purpose of Introverts. Why The World Needs You to Be You.” I spent years doing the research behind it. It has tons of information, but I also did a survey of my blog subscribers about their biggest challenges as introverts.

[00:35:02] And I used that. I got thousands of responses. And so digging into that, I noticed patterns, patterns of struggles, but also patterns of strengths. And so the book really unpacks, what are the gifts and strengths the world has to receive from introverts and how can you individually recognize those strengths in yourself and maximize them and overcome the struggles that might get in your way. [00:35:30] And so I hope that it’s both encouraging but also very practical. There’s a lot of interactive tools in it. There’s questions for reflection. There’s all kinds of things like that. And if you’re an extrovert, I’ve heard from several extroverts now that reading it has helped their relationships with an introvert in their life. So if you’re married to an introvert or you’re parenting one, or if you just have a lot of friends that you love who are introverts, I think it can be beneficial for extroverts too. It has been a best seller and resonated more than I even imagined. So I hope everyone can get this message because I think it is something I wish I’d had 20 years ago. [00:36:14] It would have changed the trajectory of my life. It would have protected me from going to that place of burnout. And so I want everybody else to have it so that they do not have to go through what I did. You can let me be your warning.

Carrie: Absolutely. I’ve really enjoyed it. It felt so validating for me to read.

[00:36:38] And I knew some about introverts from reading that I had done in the past and kind of my own journey of self discovery, but reading the book this time with all of the interweaves that you talked about of the research that you did, and the brain science has been like, “Oh, yeah. That makes so much sense.” And there are little checklists and different things and it’s just been, it’s been a good read. So thank you for writing it and sharing that with us and thank you for being on the show today and just sharing your wisdom there.

Holley: Thanks for having me.

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I hope you enjoy listening to this interview with Holly. If there’s nothing else that you take away, I hope that you know that you were created uniquely by God with a purpose and intention in mind. He did not make a mistake by making you an introvert. If you are an introvert and he did not make a mistake by making you an extrovert, if you’re an extrovert, so go and embrace and be all that God has called you to be.

[00:37:47] At hope for anxiety and OCD, we talk about how we are here to reduce shame, increase hope, and develop healthier connections with God and others. If you know somebody that needs this message, I would encourage you to share the show with them. You can also share your support for the show by writing us a review on iTunes.

Thanks so much for listening.

Hope For Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and Audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s grace.