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87. OCD FAQ with Carrie and Dr. Kelley Kleppinger

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In today’s episode, I’m joined by my friend Dr. Kelley Kleppinger in a Frequently Ask Questions (FAQ) session on OCD.

Episode Highlights:

Here are some of the questions we tackled:

  • What exactly is OCD
  • What is the difference between anxiety and OCD?
  • How long does it take for someone to get diagnosed with OCD?
  • Why can’t we seem to take our thoughts captive?
  • How does someone know if it’s the Holy Spirit or OCD?
  • How can we help someone with OCD?

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 87 of Christian Faith and OCD! I’m your host, Carrie Bock, and today, we have a special episode where Dr. Kelley Kleppinger joins me to tackle some of the most common questions people have about OCD. Dr. Kelley and I connected through a mutual friend and have enjoyed developing a meaningful friendship alongside our husbands.

I’m excited for today’s conversation because Kelley will be asking me some questions—questions many of you might have about what OCD looks like, how it intertwines with faith, and how we can find hope through it all.

This is going to be an insightful conversation where we’ll dive deep into topics like scrupulosity, mental compulsions, and how to separate intrusive thoughts from sin. We’ll also explore what it looks like to walk through OCD as a Christian and how trusting in God’s grace plays a pivotal role in the healing process.

I hope you enjoy today’s conversation as much as we enjoyed recording it! Don’t forget to check out the free resource at carriebock.com/resources/.

Explore Related Episode:

Transcript

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 87. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and we have decided at the beginning of the year to take things back to the basics a little bit. So we’re doing an OCD FAQ episode with my friend Dr. Kelley Kleppinger. Kelley and I have been friends for a little while, we were introduced by a mutual friend of ours.

We’ve had fun and going on some double dates with our husbands and things like that. I also wanted to let everyone know that I have a course called Get Out of My Head, coming out in about a month, and I’m very excited about this. It’s specifically designed for Christians who are struggling with OCD.

There’s lots of misinformation out there when it comes to the church and OCD people trying to apply general principles of anxiety to OCD treatment maybe that is found in the Bible, and we’ll talk about that a little bit today. If you guys would be interested in a free download of some things that every Christian with O C D needs to know, you can go to hope for anxiety and ocd.com/free.

And that will also make sure that you are getting updates about the course coming out. Kelley, tell us a little bit about yourself and what caused you to be interested in doing this episode with me because I kind of put out an SOS on there.

Dr. Kelley: I have been in education for 18 years and in those 18 years I have had a lot of children with a lot of different issues. And anxiety is the number one thing that I see in my children right now. So dealing with that on a daily basis definitely made me curious about your podcast and what you do and how you can help people. And also just in general, I think we all deal with a level of anxiety at times. I know I do.

We all did during the pandemic, and your strategies are great for people across that spectrum as well. It is comforting to know that you’re not in it by yourself and that there are things that you can do. Just curious to learn more about it.

Carrie: Awesome. I have recruited Kelley because we’ve decided that Steve has been my Fillin person enough, and so I do much better having people ask me questions or dialogue with me than just solo episodes.

My solo episodes, if you all have listened to them, tend to be very short. It’s just kind of like I get the information out there and I’m done, but I can provide a lot more information and talk more when I’m dialoguing with people. It’s just my nature and what’s a little bit easier for me, I’ve found. What’s the first question that you have? The list today? I kind of gave some questions of things that are frequently asked about OCD.

What is OCD?

Dr. Kelley: Well, the first one is down to the basics. What is OCD?

Carrie: OCD is a mental health disorder that is characterized by someone who has obsessions and compulsions. We can break that down a little bit more.

Obsessions, we use that word sometimes, you might say, I’m obsessed about Kentucky sports. Or someone might say, I’m really obsessed with this musician or musical artist. But when we’re talking about obsessions in an OCD sense, we’re talking about intrusive thoughts. That you can’t seem to get outta your mind.

It’s like they’re stuck in there like chewing gum on the bottom of your shoe that you can’t get off, and they’re very repetitive, or they have repetitive themes. People can have a variety of different obsessions. It can be obsessed about germs. That’s what people commonly refer to or know about with OCD.

They’re a Hollywood picture, it’s someone like Monk that’s going around and he can’t touch the door handle. He is gotta use a handkerchief or something like that. Things have to be in a certain order in his house. That’s not really, OCD is much broader than that. So you can have obsessions about cleanliness, or sometimes it’ll be referred to as contamination.

You can also have obsessions about relationships, and we’re gonna talk about that more in-depth on the next podcast that comes out around Valentine’s Day, relationship OCD and anxiety. And those look more, am I with the right person? What if I marry the wrong person? Do these flaws mean that we’re not meant to be together when really it’s just kind of normal?

Maybe miscommunications, mishaps. And they’re kind of stereotypical relationships if you would look at them from the outside in. It may look like in friendships, having obsessions about, did I upset somebody? Did I offend someone with what I said? The compulsive piece of that would be replaying conversations over and over and over again.

People can have obsessions about God, Jesus, religion, moral sets called scrupulosity. And we’ve had some guests that have shared some personal stories on the show. I encourage you guys to go back and maybe listen to some of those with Mitzi Van Cleve was on our show talking about that a little bit.

Typically, OCD gets attached to, what you are most passionate about. People can have obsessions also about sexual things, homosexuality. They’ll be like being concerned about if they’re homosexual or not. Being concerned about abusing children harm OCD is really common, even like pedophilia OCD, where people are concerned that they’re gonna sexually abuse a child.

That doesn’t mean that they want to do those things. So there’s a difference between an intrusive thought and a desire. But obviously, these things can be very shameful and scary, so people don’t want to talk about it, especially in the context of the church. Who wants to go say like, oh, hey, I’ve been having thoughts about harming children. And then somebody would probably say, okay, let’s not put you in the nurse. Or even though it could be a person that really loves kids, and they may have their own kids and care very much about them, but live in a constant state of fear of harming those children. When we talk about obsessions and compulsions. Compulsions tend to be things like checking door locks, or I gotta make sure go back in and make sure I unplug the curling iron because the house might burn down.

I’ve gotta make sure that the stove turned off and the TV’s unplugged. Sometimes we would call them rituals that someone may get involved in just to leave their house. So I’ve had clients who come to see me because they’re late to work repetitively, and obviously that’s causing problems with their job because they’re taking 30 minutes to check everything, or they’re leaving the house and then actually coming back and going in the house and checking and make sure all this stuff is turned off.

Sometimes with harm OCD people are afraid that they’ve hit somebody. Like they’ve actually accidentally hit a pedestrian and they will circle their car back around and go check to make sure that they didn’t hit anybody. So that’s another form of checking. Obviously these things are very distressful.

Unfortunately, sometimes we use OCD a little bit more lightly in our society. Like, oh, that person’s so OCD. And what we really mean is they’re particular or they like things a certain way. They’re not actually living with a high level of distress. When you’ve been diagnosed with OCD, you’re typically spending about an hour on some of this stuff, or more I think is the cutoff for the D SM diagnosis.

And some compulsions can be mental. We don’t always see them, and that can really lead to OCD going undiagnosed for a while because there may be certain words that people will repeat in their head to reduce this sense of anxiety brought on by the obsession. They will pray certain prayers, especially confessing.

Confessing can be another compulsion that happens with people, especially happens in children feel the need to go up to you and tell you something bad that they did, and that’s the obsession they’re having in their head. I did something wrong. I have to go tell somebody and get this out of my head. And even reassurance-seeking can be a compulsion in itself, which a lot of people have who have OCD and don’t realize that this is what they’re doing.

They’ll go to their spouse, say if they’re having relationship obsessions and go, honey, do you still really love me? If you were gonna marry me again, would you still do that? Are we okay? Like is our relationship good. And the spouse will be going, yeah. Oh, what’s going on with you? And then they’re probably thinking, is everything good?

I thought it was, but not sure. That’s what you said. That’s the very long explanation of what OCD is. And I went into a lot of different examples because there are so many people who are probably even listening to this and think, well, I just have anxiety. But really when we start to peel back the layers, they have OCD characteristic.

Dr. Kelley: , I just learned a lot. I had no idea there were that many layers and ways that it can go. Just like you said, I’ve had the Hollywood version in my head of what OCD is because people just throw it around so loosely. It is not what we think of all the time. So that was an explanation, obviously, with that explanation, anxiety goes along with that. So what is the difference between OCD and anxiety?

What is the Difference OCD and Anxiety?

Carrie: There’s a lot of overlap. I think just in terms of body sensations, people with OCD still get some of the same, discomfort in terms of their body. They may have body tension, heart rate may increase, they may feel off.

They don’t necessarily always are as tuned in or as honed in on what’s happening in their body as people with anxiety because they’re so used to going in their head and thinking through. And that’s a lot of times the way they solve problems is kind of going in their head. So that’s why sometimes the somatic therapy can really help them kind of sit with some of the body distress.

Learning mindfulness practices, which is one thing I’m gonna talk about in the OCD course as well. What really is mindfulness breaking that down, and how do you practice it? How do you learn to tolerate that distress that comes up with OCD? I would say with anxiety. Anxiety tends to respond at times to thought challenges.

I can sit with a person with anxiety and we can work through certain things mentally, where I’ll say, okay, so you’re afraid of that. You’re afraid of losing your job. What’s the worst case scenario if you lose your job? Okay, if I lose my job, I’m gonna lose my house. I’m gonna become homeless. Next thing you know, they’re on the side of the street begging for money, and then you’re like, “Okay, how likely is that that’s going to happen?” Because you’ve told me you have some support in your life and other people you can depend on, and people that would help you out if you were really in a bad spot. And they’ll be able to kind of rationalize and realize, yeah, you’re probably right. You probably don’t need to be afraid of losing my job.

And then we’ll go through and we’ll talk about, well, you have some pretty marketable skills, in your field. You’ve been in your field for 10 years is what you’ve told me, so you probably could get another job, right? And they’re like, oh yeah, I could. But if somebody had some kind of intrusive thought it, probably wouldn’t be like, oh, maybe I’ll lose my job.

It probably would be more like, I think I’ve offended my boss. and you could talk with them and you could say some of those same things. Well, you’ve told me that you and your boss have a good relationship. Yeah, I know. What if I just said the wrong thing and he’s really upset and he’s really mad with me right now.

They can’t ever get off of it with the logical reasoning. It’s just not gonna happen because they’ll go back into that loop and almost it can make it stronger. It’s like arguing with back and forth with OCD or trying to rationalize with it can actually increase it and cause more problems. Whereas in a CBT type therapy, cognitive behavioral with anxiety, we can say, okay, tell me about your thought and how that influences your feelings and your behavior whereas with OCD, it’s just kind of, they can’t really thought challenge the same way. It just doesn’t seem to work. And then they get kind of more distressed when you try to do that. That’s one of the main differences. And then I would say too, with anxiety versus OCD, just treatment-wise with anxiety, you’re teaching people really to calm down in the moment.

You can teach them relaxation skills someone with OCD, you’re more kind of teaching them to ride the wave a little bit. You can do that some with anxiety, there’s some overlap, but it’s more about learning to tolerate that distress and knowing that you don’t have to act on it so that you can get out of that loop.

I think there’s some avoidance is overlap. Both people with anxiety and OCD tend to avoid things. There’s definitely are some similarities and differences.

Dr. Kelley: Obviously, therapy can help both OCD and anxiety. You said teach people to learn to ride the wave or push through or tell them that they’re okay.

If someone’s living with it and they don’t know it, you know, to me it’s really sad that obviously, it takes so long for them to get diagnosed. Why is that the case?

Carrie: I think about an average of seven years for an individual to be diagnosed with OCD. What I really believe that is due to lack of education, where we have these Hollywood models, and even people that are famous that have OCD look at, like Howie Mandel won’t shake hands with people. And he’s been great about being open about his OCD, but once again, that’s kind of a stereotype. I don’t know if anybody knows that Mark Summers who did Double Dare actually had OCD and it had to do with cleanliness.

He wrote a book about it. I don’t remember the book, but we’ll put it in the show notes for you. He used to comb the fringes of his rug. I mean, that’s how distressed he was about having to have things clean. And when he was on Double Dare, obviously it was a messy show. Anybody remembers that old Nickelodeon show?

I think he takes his shirt off at the end of every show, and the producers hated that he did that. He talks about that in his book as well. So these are pictures that we have out in public. But nobody famous maybe is talking about their relationship obsessions or about their sexual obsessions that they’ve had.

Some people have definitely talked about scrupulosity in the Christian realm. We have some personal stories like I said before, especially with some of the more shameful thoughts. People aren’t talking about it. It’s not on parents and teacher’s radar because a lot of times kids and teens will start to show symptoms.

And even when I talk with adults, they didn’t necessarily realize that it’s a time, but they’ll be able to go back and say, oh yeah, when I was in school. I used to have all my work perfectly or really bubble in the answers just the right way, or there were certain things that they used to redo work or erase holes in the paper because they erased so much.

Some of those things have occurred or they confessed a lot to their parents, and their parents just thought, why is my child doing this? But they didn’t know that was a symptom of OCD, so they didn’t know to necessarily connect to that. I think people haven’t picked up on it as much and what the signs and symptoms are. And then the other piece is that, unfortunately, and this is a sad piece to me as well, is that even counselors who treat anxiety don’t always know how to distinguish when it’s anxiety versus when it’s OCD. I just talked to kind of a local therapist recently because she had a situation. She said I think this person might be showing signs of OCD and can I just consult with you?

And we did that over the phone, just like, Hey, tell me what’s going on. And I can tell you if this lines up with what I’ve seen or signs or symptoms because it is a little bit different. And so most commonly what will happen is people will say, I’m anxious who have OCD? I’m anxious, they’ll go to therapy and tell their therapist, I’m anxious, right?

So then they’ll start to give them suggestions or treatment for anxiety. I had one client who told me that she was in therapy for two years and she goes, now that I look back on it, all I was doing was reassurance. Seeking from the therapist, you basically tell me I’m gonna be okay. I have all these worries and all these concerns, so that’s a sad scenario to me, which is why it’s important if people do have OCD to ask a therapist that you’re looking at seeing.

What’s your experience level been? How often do you see people with OCD? What’s your training like? What’s your approach? Ask a lot of questions because unfortunately there are people out there who will say “Yes, oh, I deal with OCD,” but they really don’t, unfortunately. We don’t get a ton of training in graduate school on this.

We get kind of the broad overview, the large brushstrokes, and then what happens after you get a school is your experience level. And your continuing education really help you narrow down what your focus is and the types of clients that you end up wanting to see or attracting or end up working with.

I think a lot of people think that we all do the same thing, and that’s not really true.

Why Do I Need Help? Why Can’t I Take My Thoughts Captive

Dr. Kelley: If I’m putting myself in the shoes of someone that has OCD or thinks that they may have OCD when they’re thinking, why can’t I just take care of this myself? Why do I need help? Why can’t I seem to take my thoughts captive?

Carrie: I think this is a common question for Christians because, they’ve gone to church and said, Hey, I’m worried about this. And people have told them just common things that we tell people for anxiety in the church. “Cast your cares on the Lord, pray about this. And the God of peace will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.”

 Take your thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. So there’s this shame that comes when someone tries to apply that to their OCD and is like, oh no, like it’s not working. I guess one of the things I wanna do with the show is really reduce shame and say, “That’s not you, that’s not your fault.” That’s your brain malfunctioning actually, and that was something I meant to bring up earlier. We were talking about what is OCD is that there are certain parts of the brain that they can actually see on scans that are overactive. That’s just a function of a fallen body that none of our bodies are perfect.

Sometimes things go wrong with our brain, unfortunately, and we’re not able to take that thought captive. And I think with OCD it’s recognizing, “Hey, that’s an intrusion.” And some people will even think too, oh, this is spiritual warfare. This is the devil telling me I’m gonna harm children. Or this is the devil telling me that I’m homosexual when I’m really not, and causing this high level of distress internally.”

I don’t know. You could make arguments about what’s spiritual and what’s not spiritual, and I certainly will leave that for people to judge themselves. But we are looking at a brain condition and we shouldn’t feel bad if you’re struggling with this brain condition.

Dr. Kelley: You were talking about the spiritual connection and what the church says. How does someone know if it’s the Holy Spirit or OCD? Because I can see people getting that blurred.

Carrie: Absolutely. That’s probably one of the biggest questions that I get from Christian clients is how do I know if this thought that’s entering my head is something the Holy Spirit is telling me to do or wants me to question? Or is it something that’s OCD related? What I would say for that is you have to look at, based on the Bible, how is it that God speaks to us? We talk about the still small voice of the Holy Spirit, that even in the Old Testament when God said he was gonna speak to Moses and there was all this big stuff that happened.

There was a lot of thunder or lightning. I can’t remember all the things, but, and God was not in that. But then there was a still small voice, and that’s where God was. OCD tends to be very loud and obnoxious. You need to listen to me. You need to listen to me now, and you need to go do something and you have to do it right now, whereas when you learn to discern God’s voice comes from a place of love and kindness, there’s a verse that says, it’s God’s kindness that leads us to repentance. If God is pointing out something, for example, that we need to confess, that’s a very gentle and loving way that he would do that. “Hey, you hurt that person’s feelings and you need to go to them and apologize.” And then from that conviction, if we did go and apologize, ask for forgiveness. We would expect to feel better. Whereas somebody that’s confessing because they have OCD, that’s not gonna make them feel better. So that’s kind of another indication. If you’re feeling, I think God wants me to pray more, but then you pray more and you don’t feel a sense of relief or you don’t feel that you’re following God still.

Then that’s an indication that might be OCD. If it’s loud, obnoxious, you gotta do it now it’s probably most likely OCD. If you’re in a quiet still moment with the Lord and you feel like he’s telling you something and there is a sense of belief when you do it, then that’s probably an indication that it’s God.

God doesn’t speak to us through OCD. God speaks to us through his spirit. I just wanna jump in here and say too, before, it sounds like I’m talking too much about trusting your feelings related to the Holy Spirit. You do have to make sure that what you believe you’re being told by the Holy Spirit is aligned with scripture and with things that God has clearly commanded us knowing that the Holy Spirit is not gonna ask you to do something in opposition to those things.

How Can We Help Students Who Have These Tendencies?

Dr. Kelley: One question I’ve had throughout the interview as an educator is, how can I help my students who have these tendencies? Because the student population I work with, we do have a lot of anxiety. I don’t have any diagnosed OCD at this time, but I’m definitely seeing some of these tendencies.

So what can I do as an educator to help my students succeed if I see these characteristic?

Carrie: Is your school kind of familiar with the growth mindset versus, I can’t remember what the other piece is?

Dr. Kelley: We’re very much a growth mindset campus.

Carrie: I think that is really helpful. Helping kids know that mistakes often are how we learn, especially when you’re young, it’s okay to make mistakes.

Normalizing that because there is some perfectionism that can come with anxiety and OCD. I think I’m a bit of a recovering perfectionist myself. I want things to be done right and I want it to be done right the first time. I can definitely empathize with that kid that asked for another piece of paper because they messed up on their drawing.

Maybe teaching them, it’s still gonna be a great drawing even if you don’t feel like it came out the way that you wanted it to. Or maybe limiting them. If they’re the kid that wants five pieces of paper, say, I’m only gonna give you two. That’s gonna be it. I’ll give you one extra piece of paper. Or that kid that doesn’t wanna start, maybe because they don’t think they can do it, or they don’t think it’s gonna be perfect.

Just really encouraging them like, “Hey, let’s just get started and see where this goes,” or sometimes you kind of, depending on the kid and what motivates them and those types of things, because sometimes kids with OCD can look more defiant than they actually are. They’re not intentionally trying to be defiant. They’re just really distressed internally. And so if you find a way to validate that, I think that’s important. I’ve noticed that it upsets you or that it really bothers you when you don’t feel like your paper is perfect, or I noticed that you don’t like touching the substance because it just feels too sticky.

Then that will help feel like, “Oh, okay, she gets it, and we have the assignment with the sticky substance. So how can we help you be able to work through this concern? Essentially what we’re trying to do, either with anxiety and OCD is not push people to the brink of panic. We’re trying to push people to the brink of discomfort because a lot of times what we do is when we start to feel discomfort as humans, we just back up and we go, no thank you.

Check out. I don’t wanna do that. That’s uncomfortable. I was working on something for the course and talking about physical therapy. One of the things that I learned going through physical therapy that they told me is that a tight muscle is a weak muscle. So if you’ve had a tight muscle in your body and you know what that feels like, you go, “I’m moving that, no thank you.

I don’t wanna stretch that out. I don’t want to, wait you’re asking me to lift my leg, but my leg hurts right now.” Well, your leg hurts because it’s weak. So can we do five repetitions with no weight to strengthen your leg? But if we put some weight on there and we expect you to lift 10 pounds, then you are gonna be in pain and it’s not gonna be good for you.

So maybe just the physical therapy analogy helps a little bit with kind of, and you have to be really good as the teacher or the parent or the spouse or whoever to know what’s gonna be a little bit of a push. And what’s gonna be, oh no, we’re now having like a full-blown panic attack.

Dr. Kelley: Excellent advice.

Carrie: Does that help?

Dr. Kelley: It really does especially the physical therapy analogy. And like you said too, just validating them saying, I see this. And even the way we say it makes a difference because I think over time in education, the way we talk to children has changed. Some of us are still stuck in that old mindset when we have to push forward into the new, to really better understand our kids now and what they are experiencing in their minds because we want them to be successful.

Carrie: Realistically, when you have 20 plus kids in a class and you just need to get it done, there are times where you don’t have all the time to sit down and maybe give the one-on-one attention and you just wanna say, just sit down, just do what I thought you didn’t do.

Dr. Kelley: We all definitely have those days, but there’s also those windows of opportunity where we can cause we want to see them all be successful.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Kelley has listened to our show before. She knows that at the end of every episode, we like to share a story of hope. Which is a time that you have received hope from God or another person. What do you have for us today?

Dr. Kelley: There’s so many to pick from, I have to say because if you sit down and think about all the ways that God touches your life every single day, that list should be miles long. But the ones coming to mind right now. Is it from work at work In December, we do Secret Santa, which is fun. We’re trying to run around and be sneaky and not find out who has our names.

And December is tough in the educational world. We’re tired. Anytime we get close to a break, we’re tired, we’re exhausted because the kids amp up and our energy is down. My secret Santa giving me perfect stuff and I was like, wow, this is really cool. But the end was what really got me. It turned out to be one of my friends, which I did not know.

But in her final gift when she revealed herself. She wrote the nicest note I think I’ve ever received, and talked about how much I love others and how much I give, and I was just floored. I took it home and I showed it to my husband and I said, this is not me. Why is she saying these things about me? Because I feel like my job is to pour into other people and give to other people all the time.

So it’s nice and very humbling when God gives you that moment of, but wait, you’re doing good things and people appreciate it, and I see you. And it was just one of those nice moments. I still have the cards sitting on my desk because it’s one of the things I like to do at school is write cards to people because we all need encouragement.

So it was just nice to receive that back and God just going, it’s okay. You’re good. You’re gonna make it till Christmas break, and I did. So something small, but still a reminder that he’s there and he uses us all the time to encourage each other.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s really cool because we have a hard time. We don’t have objectivity, right?

This is why people go to therapy because when you’re in the middle of your stuff, whatever your stuff is, a lot of times you can’t see the forest for the trees. So when you’re in the middle of stressful work situation, it’s nice for somebody else to say , okay, but this is my perspective of it and this is what I see you doing.

So that’s really nice that she was able to do that for you. Also because she was your friend. She knew what gifts to give you, so that made it easier for her.

Dr. Kelley: Yes. My pastor was talking about last Sunday, if your God lays it on your heart, if you think, oh, I should call this person, I should write this note. Just do it.

Don’t think about it. Just do it. And I feel like that was a great example and a great reminder of just be there for each other and show my love to everyone.

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on our show and relieving Steve of having to be the fill-in person all the time. He doesn’t mind. I just figure people might get sick of hearing from Steve. I don’t know.

Dr. Kelley: What was great to be here. I enjoyed it and had a lot of fun and I learned a lot.

Carrie: If you are new to our show, I want you all to know where you can find us. Head over to Hope for anxiety and ocd.com. You can hit me up on the contact form if you have any show suggestions, guests you really want me to interview, or just wanna tell me what you think about the show and anything that we can improve on, or questions that you have about OCD that maybe we didn’t cover today, maybe I can stick those in the course for you, or we can have another episode sometime before too long. Thank you so much for listening everybody.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

85. Anxiety FAQ with Carrie and Tiffany

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In today’s episode, returning guest, Tiffany Ciccone, an author and English teacher joins Carrie in a Q&A episode about anxiety. 

Episode Highlights:

Here are some of Tiffany’s questions answered by Carrie.

  • What is anxiety?
  • How do you respond to someone when they say that anxiety and depression are just spiritual warfare and lack of faith?
  • Everyone says to try deep breathing when you’re anxious. It doesn’t work for me. Why?
  • Should I take medication for my anxiety?
  • I pray but why I’m still anxious?
  • How do I know if I need help for my anxiety?

Episode Summary:

Welcome back to Christian Faith and OCD! In Episode 85, I’m excited to answer Tiffany Ciccone’s questions about anxiety. Tiffany, the author of Anxious with Jesus, is here to discuss these important topics with empathy and insight.

We start by talking about the connection between mental health and faith, sharing my personal journey during a tough time in my life. Tiffany and I explore how anxiety can seem to come out of nowhere. I explain that anxiety often doesn’t have a single cause and may be connected to past trauma or physical issues. Recognizing and accepting anxiety is the first step, followed by using practical strategies like deep breathing, exercise, and mindfulness.

We tackle the misconception that anxiety is only a spiritual issue or sign of weak faith. I share that these conditions can have both spiritual and practical sides. Drawing from personal experiences and Biblical stories, I highlight that suffering can be part of God’s plan but doesn’t mean you have weak faith.

For more FAQs about anxiety, tune in to the episode!

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and ocd, episode 85. Happy New Year everyone. Happy 2023. It’s hard to believe that I started this podcast towards the end of 2020, so we’ve been going strong for a little over two years now. If you are new to our show, we’re all about reducing shame, increasing hope in developing healthier connections with God and others.

Today on the show, we actually have a returning guest from episode 41, Tiffany Cicconi. I’m very excited that you are here today, Tiffany, thank you. Very excited to be here. I brought you back because I thought beginning of the year, let’s break down and do just some very, like get back to basics. Just do some question and answer about anxiety. And I thought it would be kind of fun to have you read the questions. So that’s where we’re going today if everyone’s wondering.

However, before we get into that, I wanted to ask you to give us a little update since we missed you being a part of episode 80 on updating previous guests about what you’re doing now.

So you were writing a book about anxiety when we interviewed before.

Tiffany: How is it coming along? It’s coming along really well. A book is called Anxious with Jesus, and I have a little subtitle for it now. A memoir from the Messy Intersection of Faith and Mental Health or Mental Illness. I forget God, basically provided me with some time to just hunker down and work on it.

So I would say that my manuscript is basically finished and I’m in the process of submitting proposals to a couple publishers, and if they don’t bite, then I’m going to self-publish it. I don’t have a date yet, but it’s kind of new, exciting, unexplored territory for me. That’s where I’m at. Hey, when it comes out, we’re blasting it all over Instagram and get shared on the podcast.

Carrie: I’m very excited about it.

Tiffany: Oh. Thank you.

Carrie: If you need someone to read it and write you an Amazon review, you know where to find me.

Tiffany: Definitely will be doing that.

Carrie: I think it’s so relatable to people who deal with anxiety, because sometimes in their lives they feel like people around me just don’t get it. Even unfortunately, it happens a lot of times in the Christian community. Where if they read a story or hear a story about someone else who’s also struggled, it’s just that relatability is so helpful to be like, “Oh, okay. They’re a Christian. They’re trying to follow the Lord, and they’re also struggling too. And I don’t feel so alone anymore.”

Tiffany: Yeah, that’s definitely a major goal in my book because when I first started, I was diagnosed 15 years ago, and at that time, mental health was not as openly discussed as it is today, and I went through it very much alone. And so one of my goals now is to kind of reduce that.

I’m sharing my story so other people don’t have to live through theirs with a sense of doing it by themself.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Fire away. What’s the first question? Or FAQ? Episode.

What is Anxiety?

Tiffany: Gladly. Let’s start with the beginning. So Carrie, what is anxiety?

Carrie: Anxiety is a bit of a broad term, so I want to kind of break it down into different aspects, right?

So there’s mental aspects of anxiety, like worry, thinking about the future, oh, something bad’s gonna happen. Being really convinced of these types of things. And we also have a physiological aspect to anxiety. In our nervous system, we have a part of our nervous system called the sympathetic that revs us up.

That’s the fight or flight response, and we have a parasympathetic that calms us down. We call that rest and digest. So people who struggle with anxiety, they’re their fight or flight systemis overactivated and their rest and digest is underestimated. So part of what we do in things like therapy is help people tap into that calming aspect of their nervous system that’s already in there.

We can have spiritual aspects to anxiety where we say, okay, maybe I’m not trusting God with my worries, or I’m closing him off, or not bringing them to him. There’s these different aspects of anxiety that I think sometimes people just look at it at only one aspect, like, oh, anxiety is a spiritual problem.”

It’s not, it’s a physiological and emotional issue. And because a lot of times the emotional components are tied to negative past experiences, times where we’ve been hurt, times, where we’ve been ridiculed, so we’re afraid of those things happening again. That makes sense. Our brain remembers things for a reason, like, don’t touch the hot stove again, don’t speak in front of people because when you were in the fourth grade and you were giving your presentation, everyone laughed at you.

It’s a multifaceted issue. So I think that that’s important for people to know. It’s not just like one simple thing, “Oh, I’m a person who worries or all of that.”

Tiffany: And I think the lack of understanding of anxiety as a multifaceted thing has been the root of so many misunderstandings I’ve had with people, especially believers.

Unfortunately, they might say, “Oh, how are you?” And I might say, “I’m okay, but I’m feeling a little anxious.” And then they come back with a spiritual interpretation of that saying, “Oh, well, when I’m anxious, I learned to give it to the Lord and he takes it.” And I wanna say that’s not what, I mean, that’s not my issue right now. It’s physiological. So I really appreciate that multifaceted definition, and I’m excited for that to kind of spread,

Carrie: Yes. For more people to understand like how our brain, how our nervous system works and that God make us robotic, but we have these complex systems in our body. And let’s face it, they’re not perfect.

None of us have a perfectly functioning body, not until we get to heaven anyway, so things are gonna malfunction and we’re active sometimes.

I Pray But Why I’m Still Anxious?

Tiffany: Absolutely. So this next question relates. It’s, “I can quote scripture and pray, but I’m still anxious. Why?”

Carrie: I think a lot of times there’s this sense of cognitive behavioral therapy that has infiltrated the church. They’ll even quote scriptures like, there’s a scripture in Proverbs and it’s probably not gonna come to me, but it’s something like about a thought process and that being a part of a person. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Tiffany: I don’t know. The first one that came to my mind was trust in the Lord with all your heart leaned out on your own understanding. But yeah, I’m not sure.

Carrie: Okay. Well anyway, scratch where I was going with that. But there’s this infiltration that if we just control our thoughts, we’ll feel better. Like just, okay. So when you have that worry, you are supposed to pray about it and let it go and move on. But going back to the multifaceted approach, we can change our thoughts about something, but that doesn’t mean that our body accepts that fact as true. There are so many people that I’ve worked with that and I think of even in my younger years, There was a very loving mentor that was like, “You just need to know who you are in Christ, Carrie, like that’s gonna change your life.”. And I knew mentally who I was in Christ, but because of previous negative peer experiences, verbal bullying, those types of things, I didn’t have that sense of confidence of who I was in Christ.

I had to heal past garbage and shame and negative experiences in order to really be able to embrace and feel deep down who I was in Christ. So with anxiety, scripture is very powerful and certainly we’re not minimizing that at all, and I do believe that you need to hide that in your heart. But I’ve met so many Christians, I’ll never forget I was, speaking at a conference on the National Alliance for Mental Illness.

It was a statewide conference they have every year on anxiety. There was an older man in the audience during the question and answer time, and he said, “I know like I’m supposed to be anxious for nothing because I was talking about how to help anxiety in all these different areas and it wasn’t a Christian conference, so I did have spirituality in there.”

He said essentially like, “How do I do that? Because I feel anxious my whole life. I felt anxious, and really what I did was I pointed him back to people that were anxious in the Bible and I said, “Okay, so do you think that Gideon was anxious before he tore down his father’s altars? Really going against the grain of society.”

I think sometimes we look at these heroes of the faith and we think that they never had any anxiety, and that’s not what the Bible says. They had anxiety, but they still acted obedience. They still followed God and Jesus’ sweat drops of blood in the garden of Gethsemane over going to the cross. He still went to the cross.

He still obeyed God, but he didn’t wanna do it like he was like, “Take this away from me.”. If there’s some other way to go through this, let’s go that way. People forget that or they overlook that a lot of times. And how I see those scriptures is not as a command of like, don’t be anxious. I see it more as like, okay, God is in control.

God loves you. You’re his child and like, so there’s not anything you need to be afraid of. Like if you can rest in that security and know that like, okay, I can bring these things over to him when we pray and we let things go. I don’t think that that’s an easy process a lot of times, right? , like there are some things that really we have to wrestle with in prayer that’s very scriptural going.

And praying about something and saying, okay, God, this I don’t understand. This is really bothersome to me, or what do I do about this situation? And we don’t always get an instant answer. In fact, a lot of times we don’t get an instant answer, right? Like, okay, God, what do I do about this decision?

It’s not like there’s this shining light that comes down and says, go left. We really have to continue to meditate and pray on that. Talk to wise counsel. Search the scriptures. Okay? Is what I’m doing lining up with the Bible? Okay. It’s not a moral issue, but where do I sense the Holy Spirit leading me?

It’s not a quick thing, so I don’t know why we would think that if I just pray about something that I’m worried about, that all of a sudden I’m gonna have like, I don’t know, a warm fuzzy feeling and just be like, “Oh yes, that’s great. I have complete and total peace.” I do think that God gives us peace to where we can move forward to where we can get through to the next thing, but I think sometimes it’s oversimplified. Let’s just put it that way, in terms of how Christians view it.

Tiffany: Absolutely. I just started to look up a verse actually in Philippians when you just said that. I’m not sure where it comes from. This belief, that expectation that we’re supposed to get instant relief from our anxiety when we bring it to God.

And I think there it is a verse in Philippians. And it says, oh, it’s actually in the be anxious for nothing passage, I think. Right. Pray with Thanksgiving and the God of all peace will I forget.

Carrie: You’ll have basically, you’ll have the peace that passes understanding.

Tiffany: Yes. In Christ Jesus. And so I think that a lot comes from that and I love that they write the fact that we have to look at the entire Bible. We can’t just single out one verse and blow it, zoom in on it, and forget everything because life is complex. Scripture is complex, and that’s why I think conversations like this are really important.

Carrie: And God’s complex. Why are we trying to make God simple? He’s huge.

Tiffany: Yes.

Carrie: He cannot be simplified.

How Do I Know If I Need Help for My Anxiety?

Tiffany: Yeah. I have another, I like the next question. I feel like I’ve heard it from other people. How do I know if I need help or my anxiety? Where’s the line?

Carrie: Of course, we’re talking to a therapist and I’m very biased towards therapy, so I truly believe that anyone can benefit from therapy.

I think sitting down with someone and having an objective perspective on your life, I know as a therapist. I practice this stuff, that it’s been transformational to me to receive that support and love and acceptance from another believer who is able to affirm me and validate me, but also at the same time challenge me and say, well, have you thought about it this way?

Maybe you’re only looking at one side of the story and not the whole thing. However, when we’re talking about medication counseling, those types of things, getting help, I think we’re looking at the domains of a person’s life. Are the domains of your life impacted? So those would be things like your relationships.

Sometimes people come to counseling because they may say, “You know what? I know, like I’m driving my spouse nuts, and it’s to the point where they don’t know what to say to me. They’re trying to be supportive, but they kind of said, Hey, like maybe you need somebody more professional to talk to about this, because I’m kind of like at the end of my rope, I don’t know what to do.” Or

the anxiety is affecting their ability maybe to go out with their spouse and have a good time or be able to enjoy life with them. It may be it’s impacting work or school. So the anxiety has gotten to a point where I can’t complete my assignments because I want them all to be perfect and I’m super stressed myself out over.

I’m not sleeping, so we’re also looking at symptoms. Things like sleeping, eating too much to cope, not eating enough because you’re so anxious I can’t eat. Same thing with sleeping. Typically with anxiety, people sleep less or they’re waking a lot during the night. That can be another issue. Those types of things. Daily functioning. Is it hard for you just to get out of bed in the morning and get going? A lot of times if people have been anxious for a long period, they’ll get depressed because it’s really hard. Same with OCD.It’s just really hard to wrestle with it every day in and day out, every day, and that can really lead to a place of depression.

So sometimes when you treat the anxiety, develop some better coping skills for it, then the depression will relieve. Or sometimes antidepressants can help and different things with that too.

Should I Take Medication for My Anxiety?

Tiffany: Well said. I love that you mentioned antidepressants because that begs a whole, whole new question. New topic to explore here.

Should I take medication for my anxiety?

Carrie: Yeah. I think there is the stigma in the church about taking medication for mental health issues, which is really interesting to me because there are a lot of people in the church who take medications for other things like blood pressure or cancer or diabetes, or they have some personal family members that I know that take medications for these types of things and,

I would never say to my relative, “Well, you shouldn’t be on that high blood pressure medicine. Really what you need to be doing is exercising and eating right.” Well, they need to be doing that too, but at this point, since it’s not managed very well or their high blood pressure may be genetic, cuz sometimes it is, then that’s a medication that’s helping them live and helping them function in day-to-day.

If I have high blood pressure that is can be dangerous. So when we look at anxiety and talking about it as a multifaceted issue, if it’s affecting my physical body, then why should it be wrong for me to take something to help my physical body? Just like it’s helpful to take these things for other issues, medications for people. I always say it’s a personal decision because medications, sometimes people have had negative experiences with them or they’re like, you know what? I’m the person that gets all the side effects from the medicines and I have a hard time with them. So there are people, even though I will say there’s different options, just talk to your doctor about it.

If one thing doesn’t work well for you, you can look at something different. But some people say, “You know what? I’ve tried a medication or two, I just wasn’t happy with it, or I didn’t feel like it really helped me the way I had wanted it to.” And so they try counseling. Sometimes we try counseling for a while and then we roll back around and say, it’s really like hard for you to engage in these positive activities because of the anxiety. Your depression is so bad like would you be considered taking medication for it? And so those can go either way. I always think obviously, it’s a very personal decision what you put in your body, so I never tell people like, oh, you have to be on medication to see me or anything like that.

It’s just, “Hey, this is something that could be helpful for you. If you’re interested, why don’t you talk to somebody about it?” Whenever people initially come in, if they haven’t had just like a general blood work screening for things like vitamin deficiencies, thyroid, iron, that’s another thing that can cause issues, although that’s probably more on the low energy side rather than the anxiety side.

But anyway, the point is all of these things we talk about in a very early episode with a nurse practitioner about how all of those things can contribute to anxiety. So always like people to have a blood work rule out too. And we don’t wanna assume it’s all emotional if they’re also could be something physiological going on that could be contributing to the symptoms.

Tiffany: Absolutely. Yeah. That holistic approach is really important. And I’m gonna mention it’s just so on topic with a lot of things I’ve thought about and wrote about. One of my chapters in my book is called Therapy and the one after that is called Medication because that’s my story and I’ve been on medication for over 10 years now.

And like what you’re saying is absolutely true. In my case, I’m able to actually engage with life, engage with people, engage with God better because my mind’s working the way it’s supposed to with, you know, a boost from the medication I take. But it definitely was a journey. I know people who all over the place.

A couple good friends actually I saw go through hesitation with medication. One because of breastfeeding issues. Another because of one thing you mentioned with the, oh, I get all the side effects from everything I take, and it’s been a blessing to be able to walk with them, just kind of watch their story unfold.

And like you said, it’s not for everyone, but actually they both ended up trying it because when things get really hard, for me anyway, I end up at a place where it’s like anything to stop the anxiety. There’s something that can make me feel better. I’ll try it. That’s just my story.

Carrie: I talked about this in my first episode as like when I was going through my divorce, I was like, I’m not functioning.

I mean, I just remember periods where I would like, I’d be trying to write something for work, like a progress note, and I’d literally just stare at the computer screen for 30 minutes and all I could think about was you know my marriage that was ending. . It was very tough. I remember that was my realization moment.

That was like my wake-up call. And it was interesting because I think either that week or shortly after my therapist had said, “Have you thought about getting on an antidepressant, at least for this period? Like until you can get over this hump?” And I saw my doctor and ended up taking one for six months and it was probably one of the best things I did at that point in my life.

I think that’s another thing to tell people too, is not everybody has to be on it forever. I don’t know why people think this, because like I said, it’s not true for other medications. There’s people that might start taking medications because they’re pre-diabetic and then they can come off of. They manage with diet and lifestyle, those types of things.

But for some reason, when it comes to mental health meds, people think that somehow they’re gonna get sucked into this vortex and they’re gonna have to take it for the rest of their life. I don’t understand, cuz we don’t believe that about other kinds of medication. , it’s so bizarre. But that’s a thing that I hear a lot from people.

“Well, I’m gonna become dependent on that and I’m gonna have to have it all the time.” Plenty of things that you can take that are not addictive, right? Certainly for anxiety. Now there are some that can be potentially addictive. Those are typically prescribed more for like short-term relief, panic attacks, those types of things.

Even with that, there’s, you know, other options as well. It doesn’t mean you’re gonna get addicted if you get on an antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication.

What Do I Do If I Have No Idea Where My Anxiety is Coming From?

Tiffany: Right. Yeah. Thanks for diving into that. Let’s see our next question. This is a good one. I’ve been there. What do I do if I have no idea where my anxiety is coming from?

Carrie: Yeah, I think this is a good one because people are always trying to find like the answer, right? So like if I’m anxious, there must be some kind of reason that I’m anxious. Let’s face it, because we’re both females. Sometimes you just feel stuff, , and you have no idea why. I don’t know. Hopefully, men could resonate with that too, but I really believe like there’s some hormonal components at times that we don’t know are working behind the scenes.

You know, maybe we ate something that wasn’t agreeable. Maybe it’s just something with our nervous system that’s malfunctioning and to really be able to say, you know, “Okay, I don’t know why I’m anxious right now. Like you, you may know. And if you do know, then you can acknowledge it and go, “Okay, like, yeah, I’m really worried about this test that’s coming up on Friday.

It’s worth like three grades. I’m afraid I’m gonna fail it.” and then I can approach that several different ways. Obviously, I can breathe into it, I can pray about it, I can study, I can say, you know what? I’m gonna do the best I can. And if I fail, you know, I fail.” And then we’ll have to regroup from that.

But most likely if I study, I’m not going to fail. I’m not gonna get to that point, but if you don’t know and you just feel that, especially the physiological sense of anxiety. Sometimes it can be because something from the past is triggered that something going on in the president has kind of reminded us of a previous time, and our cognitive brain is not necessarily able to link it.

But it’s stored somewhere in our body. A lot of times trauma can be stored in in the body. When we realize that, I think it’s just, we lean into it and we say like, okay, I don’t know why I’m anxious right now, but that’s where this place of awareness and acceptance comes in. So I’m gonna acknowledge it first of all, like, “Okay, I’m acknowledging that I’m anxious right now and that we can’t snap my fingers and let that go.”

But what I can do is try a coping skill. I can try to think about something positive. I can breathe, I can go outside for a walk, you know, I can pet the dog. I can think about vacation I wanna take, that would be really peaceful. Those types of things. Even though that can be scary because we feel outta control, it’s like, “Oh gosh, this is just coming up

Seemingly out of nowhere.” A lot of times it’s not really as out of nowhere as we Think it is. If we’re able to kind of like dig in and do some work in therapy. But that’s kind of what I would recommend. I think

Tiffany: That’s good. I once had a therapist recommend to me if I’m interested, if you would agree with it, recommended, you know, if you’re feeling your anxiety physiologically, if it’s just a, I think she said somatic thing, then you should attack it on the somatic.

She recommended like a jog, try yoga, you know, breathing those things. Because you have no thought to work with it. It does make it a little more challenging. Right. And I’ve actually just went through a bout of that about a month ago I was unemployed and I was shocked by how much jogging actually helped work it outta my system or something. Nothing else would get rid of it. I just go run it off and then I feel better.

Carrie: Yeah, exercise is really great. It’s really, really good for anxiety and depression and does wonders for our body, but I would agree with that. Yeah. I think a lot of times this is another problem that people have if it’s physiological, then a lot of times what they’ll do is they’ll sit there and they’ll go, “I have no reason to be anxious.

I’m fine. My life is good. It’s okay. Move on. Like what’s the next thing?” Instead of like using something physiological to help themselves calm down. Take a deep breath, quiet your mind. Meditate, walk. Good.

Everyone says to try deep breathing when you’re anxious. It doesn’t work for me. Why?

Tiffany: Yeah. So speaking of taking a deep breath, the last question I have when I got from, a friend, this one says, “Everyone says to try deep breathing when you’re anxious. It doesn’t work for me. Why?”

Carrie: This is a good question, and I think there could be a few different reasons. Some people have get really weirded out focusing on their breath, or they start to have some obsessions about it or doing it right, something of that nature. So it really trips them up to kind of have that focus is one thing I’ve seen.

Another thing that can happen is people are not breathing in a way that’s activating that calm-down response. So like we were talking about the rest and digest, there’s something called your vagus nerve that is around that diaphragm area that if you’re breathing from your diaphragm for anybody that’s. Taking choir or anything like that, it’s right above your belly button.

So if you’re breathing into that area, you’re pressing on the vagus nerve, and that’s gonna trigger that calm down response. Sometimes when you see people take a deep breath, it comes from their chest, and it’s like, if it’s way up top, then they’re not activating that parasympathetic nervous system response.

So that’s a problem. It also could be because if you’ve had a lot of trauma or negative experiences, it may not feel safe to be at a place of rest. And this happens a lot for clients that have experienced chronic developmental trauma. So for example, growing up in a home with an alcoholic parent, I come home.

Dad’s been drinking. Dad gets violent sometimes. I don’t know. Is he gonna hit mom? Is he gonna throw something? Is he gonna just gonna be passed out in the chair? I don’t know. But I need to somehow be on high alert when I get home because I need to be prepared at all times for whatever it is that I’m gonna face.

And so that will linger in people’s nervous systems and in their body. So even though they’re a grown adult, they have a good spouse. They have kids, like their home life is actually okay and can be, you know, reasonably calm. They may wonder, why do I feel so anxious? But they’re still keyed up from all that stuff that happened to them earlier that they haven’t been able to clear out of their nervous system in some way, shape or form.

So when you try to teach relaxation skills to these people, you say, “Okay, like take some deep breaths.”. It’s almost like there’s this part of their body that’s like, “Nope. We can’t do that. Not safe. Okay.” . And it almost like, sounds this like secondary danger alarm, like, “Nope, nope. It’s too dangerous to relax.”

So in those types of situations, we really have to like ease into it and kind of like dip our toe in the water and even like recognize that anxiety and like acknowledging and validating that like, “Oh, okay, it didn’t feel safe when a kid to relax or didn’t feel safe to let your guard down.

Sometimes vulnerability is super hard for people, so it may take them time to open up in therapy or time to be able to feel comfortable enough. Sometimes it’s like having another person in the room. It feels too vulnerable to relax in the presence of another person. That can be another issue that comes up with those types of things. Multi reasons. Someone may have difficulty using breathing to relax.

Tiffany: Thanks for sharing. That’s all really interesting. I’ve never been in that place myself like the deep breathing, I have positive reactions to it. I find that really interesting. It makes a ton of sense. I also didn’t know that about the vagus nerve, about that being a reason why it helps calm down.

How Do you Respond to Someone When they Say that Anxiety and Depression are just Spiritual Warfare and Lack of Faith?

Tiffany: The last question comes from a friend of mine, and it’s something again that I’ve heard plenty of people say when I’ve come out about my anxiety. Basically, what do you say or how do you respond to someone when they say that anxiety and depression are just spiritual warfare and lack of faith?

Carrie: Yeah. Okay, so there’s two different aspects to that, right? , I think we have to address those one at a time because they’re two different responses. So our anxiety and depression, spiritual warfare, I think they can be, sometimes. , but I don’t think that they always are. So that’s really the defining piece. I think that there are times where I have like a feeling of oppression on me.

That’s the only way I can kind of describe it. I can verbally say like, “Okay, this is not from God. I don’t know where it’s from. I don’t know if it’s from Satan or if it’s just depression, but it definitely feels like, okay, this is something that’s trying to pull me down. If you acknowledge that, kind of going back to the multifaceted view of anxiety.

You know, there can be spiritual components to it where you say, “Okay, I have put my faith and trust in say, money, for example.”. Maybe you are a person that was like super financially secure and then you lose your job. Well all of a sudden you’re like trying to do it all on your own. You’re not like necessarily praying about it and you’re just, you’re getting super stressed out cause you’re like, I have to make it happen.

Pride can get in the way or not trusting. So can anxiety be a faith issue? Can it be spiritual warfare? I think it can be. However, it’s just not always going back to people like, I think to give simplistic responses to more complicated issues because they don’t. What to say or how to respond. So going back to looking at people in the Bible who were anxious or who were sad. I mean, there were people in the Bible who wanted to die, you know?

Because they were so sad about their situation. So I don’t think that those individuals had a lack of faith. When you look at faith, You look at like David prayed for his son that was sick and then the baby died. Did the baby die because David didn’t have enough faith? No. That’s not what the Bible tells us. Or there are other situations you look at Paul with like the thorn in the flesh. So did Paul not have enough faith that he could be healed from this? Well, no. It was something that God used in his life as part of his sanctification process. Mm-hmm. . One of the things that I’ve really come to learn is that the things that we want God to take away in our lives, the things that we say, Hey God, I need this.

Like I need this tho removed and I need it removed right now is like the very thing that God may be wanting to use in our life to make us more like Christ.

Tiffany: Amen.

Carrie: My husband was recently diagnosed. I’ve talked about this on the show before, but he was recently diagnosed last September with basically a life-altering neurological condition and it’s degenerative and there’s no cure.

And so I think it, it’s been interesting kind of to see some similar responses to it. Like, “Okay, well we’re gonna pray for you and we’re gonna lay hands on you and God’s gonna heal you.” And he has had people lay hands and pray for him, and that’s been incredible. But also what I’ve really seen happen over the last few months as he’s, you know, walked out his life in his struggle to walk with a walker in his forties is that other people look at him and become inspired or their faith is increased.

I don’t know how you are so positive while you’re going through all of this. You know? So I would say if somebody’s struggling with anxiety or OCD, never underestimate how God may use that in your life. Or may use it in someone else’s life. When my husband was diagnosed, I remember just sitting there and telling God, like, “I don’t have the prayer life for this.”

You know, it’s definitely transformed the way that I have depended on God. It is transformed how much I’ve realized I need community and the body of Christ instead. You know, living in a lot of independent pride for a long time saying, ah, I don’t need your help. No, we got this. Like, we’re good now. I’m just like, yes, I need help. I raise my hand. “Can I have some help over here?” And that has been incredibly humbling, and hard.

This is, none of this that I’m talking about has been easy, but I’ve been reading in Olympians and Paul talks about being in Jail. He’s like, Hey, I’m in jail. And it’s totally like advanced the gospel all over the place.

Everybody knows like I’m here because of Jesus. And that’s what I really pray over my husband is that when people see him and they see his positive attitude that they’ll see like, This is Jesus, you know? In him. And that’s how he’s able to get up every day and do the things that he’s doing and have hope and to keep moving forward each and every day.

That’s a long response and some, you know, extra personal info in there. But I think if we run around every corner and say, you know, that must be Satan, or you’re not trying hard enough, because I think the lack of faith response, my husband gets really, , tiffy about this one because essentially, it’s saying, you’re not a good enough Christian, essentially, right?

well, you don’t have enough faith to be healed, then you know you’re not a good enough Christian. And we just don’t know like what God is doing behind the scenes. So many times in our life, we just have no clue. Like if you never had anxiety in your life, And this happens to people. I’m not saying it doesn’t, but like if you went forward at a prayer service and someone laid hands on you and you never felt anxious again, you and I like, we wouldn’t even be sitting here having this conversation, like trying to give hope to other people.

You wouldn’t be writing a book to encourage other people. You just never know. We don’t always see the purpose in it when we’re suffering, especially in the beginning of our suffering, we do not see, we’re like, whoa, this is awful. Take this away. Right? God’s at work all the time.

Tiffany: Amen. That’s beautiful. And we see it in Jesus himself. So, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Carrie: I kind of shared a little bit of a story of hope at the end, but a lot of times I like to, I didn’t prep you on this ahead of, but do you have, you have any recent story of hope, like where you received hope from God or another person?

Tiffany: I like that. Sure. I know I do. There’s been a lot going on lately. I think there’s a girl who’s kind of recently come back around, a church, church that I meet with, and she struggles from anxiety and trauma growing up. She’s in her early twenties. Context. I’m 40 in a month, so we have a bit of an age gap, but we’re in the same small group together.

And she called me one night asking if she could have a ride to the emergency room, and her anxiety had been so bad recently that she got to the point of throwing up the hospital visit. They said that there was more going on than just anxiety there, but I see hope in that. She called me and I stayed there with her in the hospital until 2:00 AM.

Carrie: Wow.

Tiffany: When we got out, you can’t explain that other than Jesus, like we don’t have a whole lot in common. We both really like coffee. We both have anxiety. , but, but that’s Jesus. Like, I don’t think I would’ve stayed if I didn’t know how it might feel to be in anxiety alone.

Carrie: Right. And I didn’t want that for her. And there was another occasion before that where she texted me, “Hey, I’m really anxious right now. Can you pray for me?” And I texted her back, “Yeah, should I call you?” And she said Yes. And so I called her. And I don’t often pray for people over the phone, but this is just one example, like how your husband’s, how his

disease has reawakened your prayer life. I guess that’s kind of a micro example of that. Her reaching out to me saying just like you, you know, I need help that awakened my prayer life. And reminded me of years ago when I was like much more practiced in my intercessory prayer life. And you know, I feel like God used that to kind of start nudging me back toward that and she’s, I’m going to her birthday party in a weekend or so. So that’s definitely a story of hope. I can definitely see hard things bringing people together and the body of Christ coming together in community to support one another.

Yeah. That’s awesome. I love it. I’m so glad that you joined me on this episode. It’s been a lot of fun.

Tiffany: Me too.

Carrie: It’s good to have like your insights and your feedback as well. That’s awesome. Glad we could work this out. Well, like I said before, let us know when the book comes out. We want all the details and all of the links and people can go follow you on Instagram too to keep up with you.

Tiffany: Yes, absolutely. It’s uh, Tiffany and some Italian last name, .

Carrie: I’ll link it in there for you all so you can just look in the show notes.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Carrie. I really enjoyed this too.

74. Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) and NOCD with Stacy Quick, LPC

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

I’m privileged to be interviewing Stay Quick, a licensed professional counselor and therapist at NOCD. Stacy talks about how Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy (ERP) works for OCD and her own experience with OCD.

Episode Highlights:

  • Stacy’s personal journey with scrupulosity
  • How does ERP help people who have OCD
  • Can OCD be cured completely?
  • More about NOCD

Episode Summary:

In Episode 74 of Christian Faith and OCD, I sit down with Stacy Quick, a therapist at NOCD, to dive into the importance of accessible, affordable OCD treatment. Stacy shares her personal journey with OCD, reflecting on how a TV show finally gave her clarity about her struggles and how long it took to find effective treatment. She explains how NOCD provides life-changing early intervention, particularly in areas with limited access to OCD specialists. NOCD offers a free app that not only connects people to a supportive community but also provides Telehealth therapy covered by insurance—a huge advantage, especially for those unable to afford costly treatment options.

One of the highlights of our conversation is the power of Telehealth. Stacy explains how it allows therapists to guide patients through exposure exercises in their own homes, which can sometimes be even more effective than traditional office sessions. She also shares what she wishes she could tell her younger self: to stop worrying about things that won’t happen and to stop letting OCD steal precious time.

We talk about how OCD, and mental health struggles in general, can cause people to become hyper-focused on fixing their issues, often neglecting other aspects of life. It’s a powerful reminder that we are more than our diagnosis, something both Stacy and I deeply believe.

As always, thank you for tuning in!

Links and Resources:

NOCD

Transcript

Today’s episode is on exposure and response prevention, which is often used in treating OCD. I had wanted to devote an episode to this for a little while, because it’s something that’s talked about and has come up on our show before in personal experiences however, there’s a little bit of tension in the community between what I do. That’s a little bit different type of trauma informed approach and ERP as a result, some people have chosen not to appear on the podcast or have been very critical of some things that I have said or written regarding treatment methods, such as EMDR being used for OCD. 

One person even actually accused me of spreading lies on my website before they even had a conversation with me about this. That was a little rough, but we recovered. And unfortunately, today’s guest contacted me to share her personal story and also the work that she does with exposure and response prevention. Today on the show, we have Stacy Quick, licensed professional counselor and therapist at N CD. Welcome to the show today. 

Stacy: Thank you for having me on. I’m excited to be here.

Carrie: So I know that a lot of times we talk to professionals on our show who treat OCD and sometimes they have their own personal experience with OCD. And you had shared with me that you dealt with scrupulosity in the past. Can you just tell us a little bit about your journey of recognizing that you had OCD the symptoms being diagnosed with it?

Stacy: Sure. I’ve actually had OCD for my entire life. I don’t really remember a time not having it. Obviously, I wasn’t diagnosed with it for quite some time, because this was back in the eighties and kind of nineties. And so not as much was known about it. 

Carrie: Sure. 

Stacy: And some of my first, I guess memories, I would say is about age five or six and some of the very first ones that had started were more, what I would now know scrupulosity where I was having images of religious figures that were kind of inappropriate, that kind of things that would, or thoughts about that, that would pop into my head from a very young age.

And it would really, really bother me. And I can remember, I wasn’t really sure what was going on. 

The interesting thing there is that at that time in my life, my dad was pretty much an atheist and we didn’t go to church. We didn’t really believe. So it’s interesting that it took on that form that young, I’ve always wondered about that, but it did. And I know my grandma had been religious and so I assume she had probably talked to me a little bit about stuff and she probably had pictures around her house. So I kind of knew the basics. I knew Mary, I knew Jesus. I knew that kind of thing. And then I think my brain just kind of went wild with that. And then it blossomed into lots and lots of things I joke and say, I think I’ve had every theme or form out there over the years. 

Carrie: That’s important for people to know just about OCD in general, if they haven’t researched it, a ton is themes do shift. So sometimes they’ll think, there will be some kind of sense of relief when they’ve gotten through one theme, like, good that’s gone away now. And sometimes they can deal with a theme. The next theme is a little bit more manageable, so they don’t really feel like they have a problem. They’re like, well maybe that went away. That was super distressing. And then they’re able to manage or cope in their life with the next theme better. And then another theme hits that’s unmanageable. Have you gone through periods of like that because OCD has this tendency, you know, to like wax and wayne. 

Stacy: Definitely. Almost all of the members I’ve seen throughout the years of doing therapy have said very similar things. They’ve said it comes and it goes, there are times in my life. Where it is really loud in times where it’s much quieter. And that seems to be reflective of many people’s experience, not just my own, but theirs as well. One of the things that I think research would support is that when you’re under more stressful times in your life or big life changes, that’s when OCD seems to be more prevalent. It kind of, I think of it in my own life as it kind of hangs out. And then it demands a little more attention during times of change or challenging times in my life. It tries to anyways.

Carrie: That’s a really good way of describing it. It’s like, it’s always there. And sometimes it’s a little bit more in the background and sometimes it’s more in the foreground, like knocking on your brain, demanding attention, like, Hey, pay attention to me.

Stacy: Yes. That’s definitely how I think of it. And I know what I always tell people, people always kind of ask, is it curable? Right? And what I say to that is. It’s very, very manageable. Right? You can live in recovery because of my beliefs. Do I believe that yes, it could be cured. Absolutely. And at the same time, my experience says that’s a very rare thing to happen. I believe God could do it for sure. And sometimes He doesn’t usually, He doesn’t for whatever reason, He knows a lot more than me. So I’m just gonna address that. 

Carrie: I think that’s a great perspective to have on it that regardless of what people are dealing with, whether it’s anxiety or OCD or depression, sometimes we have battles in our life or trials that we go

through that are long term that are ongoing and we do struggle with why won’t God take this away from me? I don’t understand it. Why I’m having to go through this. Did you experience some of that in your own spiritual wrestlings with God? 

Stacy: Absolutely. I really struggled with that throughout the years. I’m in my forties now. And so having had this for 36 years, at least. I started my relationship with God when I was probably around 11. And so since about that time, I struggled. And what has really helped me is when you look at Peter and what Peter says about how I have this thorn in my side, and I often go back to that where he basically says, I ask God three times to take this from me. And he didn’t. And he said, my grace is sufficient for you. And so for me, that’s what I go back to when people ask why, I don’t know why. And it is something that’s my thorn and it’s something I’ve carried doesn’t mean he won’t someday heal it. 

But what it has brought into my life has been this calling, right? I would not be doing the work I do had I not had these experiences. And so I am a big believer that the things we go through or the trials or battles we face are meant to do something right. We’re supposed to do something with them. At least that’s my thoughts. And so I do think that definitely led me down the path. I would not be doing this if it wasn’t for that. 

Carrie: There’s a really great verse in second Corinthians towards the beginning that I like that talks about how we comfort other people with the comfort that we’ve received from God. And I feel in a lot of ways, that’s like my life first, the sufferings and the trials that I’ve been through and have experienced with God. It’s like I’m able to pass the Baton and help other people through some of those similar trials and situations. 

Stacy: Absolutely. I agree a hundred percent. I think the majority of the people I have worked with, who I’ve shared parts of my story with when it’s appropriate, have been so grateful just to find out I’m not alone. There’s someone else who has been down this road because I think OCD in particular has this. Certain peculiar missed about it, that people do feel very alone in it and feel like nobody understands it, because it can take on some really bizarre themes and it jumps so much. Right? So I think people find comfort in that, that, my goodness. Here’s somebody who has been through this and has in a sense, come out on the other side. 

Carrie: So I wanna shift a little bit and get into talking about exposure and response prevention, because that’s the therapeutic tool that you use probably most often on NO CD. I’ve had a little bit of struggles over the years with ERP and I shared some of those with you before we started recording.I don’t dislike ERP I’m completely open to it. I know that it helps some people. I also know that from my background of dealing with trauma, that if someone tries to just use a straight ERP model with someone who’s experienced trauma, sometimes that can make their trauma experiences, PTSD symptoms and worse. And so there’s this balance of having to make sure that we’re helping people who have been diagnosed with multiple things. And a lot of times people will say, well It’s been research that ERP works well with OCD, and we know that people are people they’re complex. And I’ve tried to get someone to talk about ERP  on the show and was basically told that I was spreading lies on my website because I talk about treatments that are not just ERP. And we’ve talked about all kinds of things on the show. 

We were very open to whatever helps people like get the help that you need. And we had someone say they got help through brain spotting with their OCD and that’s awesome. Some people are helped by EMDR and by other methods. And so whatever you can get around you that is gonna help. I want people to be helped, but I’d love to have more of this conversation about how does exposure and response prevention help people who have OCD. 

Stacy: I think you bring up a really great point. I think that’s why it’s so important that if you have been diagnosed with OCD or you suspect that you have OCD that you see somebody who specializes in it’s, somebody who is very familiar with it, because it is often misdiagnosed. And there are many, many people who get misdiagnosed and it can be harmful. Right?

Carrie: Yes absolutely. 

Stacy: We’ve had people who have been diagnosed with psychosis and things like that when it wasn’t, but you really have to know it very well to see the differences. And you want somebody who’s trained enough, who also knows other forms of therapy so that they can tell what else you might need in conjunction. Right? Because you’re right. People often don’t come to you with just straight depression or straight anxiety or straight OCD, right? It is often a combination. And so one of the things we do really well, I think at OCD, is that we are careful to make sure that we’re also giving people resources and referrals for treatment providers that would deal with say complex trauma or major depression and things like that.

We know that when people do ERP for obsessive compulsive disorder, when it’s comorbid with depression and anxiety, it often does help relieve some of those symptoms. And there are times when they also need to be addressed separately and regular cognitive behavioral therapy or talk therapy can be very helpful for depression and for anxiety and for many other things.

And so I do think it is often a combination because it’s not often that you see somebody who just has OCD. And at the same time, we do know that exposure in response prevention is the gold standard treatment for OCD, but you’re right. You also have to have somebody who takes into account. 

There might be some other things going on, and I’m very careful to do a trauma screening with everyone I see, because I do think you have to go about that in a very cautious way. Right? And often people can be doing trauma work separately while they’re working with me on street ERP. And so I find that to be very useful. And then we coordinate things. 

Carrie: I appreciate your openness on that, because I know that there are some providers that are very rigid surrounding only using the ERP model. It’s a little bit frustrating, because there’s a level of rigidity with OCD that I feel like almost gets, there’s a parallel between that almost in the professionals that treat it, that I don’t feel like is helpful for the clients, just in general. Exposure and response prevention. There’s a lot of different things that go into that, but can you just give us kind of a brief overview.

Stacy: Sure. It’s basically gradually exposing you to triggers that typically would cause intrusive, unwanted, either thoughts, feelings, or urges, and then it works with you to prevent the compulsive response. So typically in order to be diagnosed with OCD you have to have obsessions or intrusive thoughts, images.

That are unwanted or urges and then compulsion something you’re doing that reduces those feelings of anxiety and discomfort or in a way neutralizes it. Right? And those can be internal or external. Right?

They can be things you see such as the most common ones, I guess, that you hear about are checking things repeatedly, or it might be saying prayers out loud, repeatedly, but it can also be internal. It can be mental compulsions, like trying to solve problems by replaying them over and over and over again. Did this really happen like this, or trying to reason sort of with the OCD? That’s the other reason it’s really important to work side by side with a trained therapist, because you might miss those mental compulsions. Right?

Carrie: Right.

Stacy: Sometimes it’s something as simple as I have to say this in my head or count this number in my head. Right? People don’t always recognize that as a compulsion, but it is.

Carrie: Because it becomes so automatic and just part of their process. I know that reassurance seeking is a really big compulsion that a lot of people have, like that need to talk to somebody else about it, or sometimes make confess certain things to another person.

Stacy: For sure. I know those are ones that often people don’t even realize they’re doing or they realize it, but then they get sneaky. Right? They don’t try to get reassurance without straight out asking for. Right? I know one big one for me when I was a kid was confessing. And I see that a lot with kids, especially really young kids.

That’s one of the first things I’m looking for when I’m talking to parents, are they coming to you a lot and telling you things that maybe. Another kiddo would not do. Right? 

Carrie: Right. 

Stacy: Cause I just remember that a lot with my mom and that really is reassurance seeking because then that person typically says, no, you’re fine.

That’s just a thought or that’s not something you’re really wanting to do, something to that effect. 

Carrie: So there’s a exposure hierarchy where you’re kind of trying to start with maybe some things that would be easier for people to expose themselves to, and then gradually work up to harder and harder things.

Stacy: I always call it. I have this latter hierarchy that I always use with people. We’re taking it step by step. We’re not throwing you in the deep end and saying, “good luck I hope you swim at your worst level 10 fear”. We wanna baby step it. And some people can go in bigger chunks and some people, it takes smaller chunks. And so we really are working. Alongside with our client to make sure that it’s not too much and we’re monitoring it, we’re asking them, you know, what’s your anxiety level before this exposure? What is it during? What is it after we’re having them monitor that regularly? And we’re also doing it with them in session, as much as we can, because we know that in order to create habituation, which is why this treatment works so well for OCD. 

We’re trying to really, in a sensory wire, your brain, you have this whole, your alarm system that’s going on and it’s telling you you’re in danger because of these thoughts. Images are urges when you’re not. And so you’ve developed this process of trying to rid yourself of those feelings, but it’s all based on this faulty alarm. So our job in ERP is to get that alarm when it goes off to recognize that it’s a false alarm, you’re not in any real danger. And that’s what ERP really is working towards. 

Carrie: I’d like to tell people about this analogy. It’s almost like we have these pathways in our brain and there’s a saying that  “The neurons that fire together, wire together”. Your brain has gone through this pathway of obsession, compulsion, obsession, compulsion, over and over.

And the more that you do, the compulsions and you, the more that you start to have the obsessions and you’re trying to get relief, but you’re stuck in this negative loop. It’s almost like a path through the woods. That’s really well worn. It’s been walked a lot. The sticks have been moved. It’s very easy to get through. And then when we’re trying to create behavioral change and new patterns, it’s like creating a new path in the woods. 

There’s maybe some limbs down on it. It hasn’t really been walked through that time. So of course, it’s going to be uncomfortable when we do these new things. And we expose our brain to new experiences. It’s not always going to feel good, just like walking through the tall grass. There might be some bugs or things that you might encounter, but the more that you walk down that path, the more well worn it is. Just like you were talking about with habituation, the more that you’re able to expose yourself to something and reduce that anxiety, or learn to sit with that anxiety and know that it’s not gonna kill you. It’s going to be okay. You’re going to be able to work through it. The easier that path is gonna be able to take the next time. And it’s a process for sure. 

Stacy: I love that. Actually, I love that metaphor. I think that’s a perfect explanation for what we’re trying to do is to get you to a place where you recognize.

That, yes, this is uncomfortable. And I’ll get through it and it won’t always feel like this. That’s the one thing over the years I’ve learned. Yes. Let me go back just a little bit. Everybody has the same thoughts that people with OCD have. They probably don’t have them as often, right? Because they don’t get stuck it’s they filter their filter works properly so they can take these thoughts that maybe aren’t very important and disregard them.

They have enough confidence, not certainty, but confidence that this is probably just a bad thought or just something that popped into my mind that I wouldn’t act down. The person with OCD though, for whatever reason, there’s a lot of mechanics in the brain. They get stuck on it and they say, why did I have this?

There must be a reason. What does it mean about me? And they internalize it. And then they start to think I’m bad or I’ve done. And that starts this whole, once you’ve latched on and gotten stuck on a thought, then it’s gonna be there more often. It’s like trying not to think about something. You’re gonna think about it. And so people with OCD it’s not that their thoughts are different from other people, but it’s that they get stuck on these thoughts and want to give them meaning. Why were they there?

Carrie: Stacy, I think that’s absolutely true and makes a lot of sense is that people do research about the general population. How many people have ever had a thought about driving their car off the road. There’s actually, I think about half of the people have had that type of thought and just even different thoughts about robbing a bank was one of them that I saw surprising sometimes how many people just have these thoughts go through their head. I have a fear of heights and so I will get certain places. And I shared with a friend who also has a fear of heights. I said, “do you like picture yourself falling from places because I do that”. And I thought to myself that was weird. 

I didn’t realize that other people also have some of those thoughts too. And he was like, I also have that I struggle with. So it’s things like that, that if you allow yourself to get really attached to it and you can’t help it, because sometimes it’s, there are genetic influence. That happen with OCD and sometimes you just can’t help having these thoughts. You just pop in there. You don’t choose. I don’t think every time I go to a high place, let me visualize myself falling off of here. It just comes in. It just comes outta nowhere. What if I fell off of this thing and I died, you know, or I was permanently injured in some way, shape or form. And then it makes me want to not get close to any edge of any high thing. 

Stacy: People often say, well, why does it latch on to some thoughts and not the others? The other thing we know is that it tends to latch on to things you value things you care about. One of the things that OCD seems to really attack is anything taboo, anything that would set you apart from someone else, anything that would make you bad or make you seem different. And so it really latches on and try to convince you in a sense, or have you doubt who you are as a person and the things that are most important to you. And I think that’s what makes it such a tormenting disorder. It goes after the things you care the most about. 

Carrie: And that’s where we get to talking about. We’ve had people show in the past who have had children thoughts about either their children being hurt or thoughts about harming their children, that those can come in after they have children. They never had before they had children. Oftentimes people of faith will have scrupulosity, obsessions and compulsions because their faith is really important to them. People who are concerned about getting things done the right way are going may have obsessions compulsions about the, just so warm of OCD. That makes a lot of sense. I’m curious about, because I don’t know a ton about it, your work on NO CD. Tell me a little bit about that platform website. 

Stacy: Sure. My work at NO CD is, you know, we are a very fast growing company.

And there’s a need out there for treatment. There’s a need for the right kind of treatment for OCD. OCD had, had an app for quite some time as my understanding. And then right around the time of the pandemic, there became a real need for therapy and it just has exploded. We’re helping so many people get this treatment that can be lifesaving. It really can be. We have a free app that you can download at treatmyocd.com. The cool thing about that is there’s like a little community in there. It’s sort of like a social media community where you can talk with people who also have OCD, and it’s very friendly community. That one of the most important things we’ve found is just knowing that there are other people out there who have this, who experience these things can be healing in itself, right?

Carrie: Sure.

Stacy: This not alone. And so the work that we’re doing is really trying to reach as many people as we can with affordable therapy. We know that many, many people can go upwards of 10 years before they get treatment and a proper diagnosis. And I can definitely vouch for that. I mean, I was 15 when I found out that this had a name. And the only reason I found out was 2020, this show kind of like a dateline show, aired an episode about OCD. And that’s how we found out that’s what I had. And then it would take me about seven years before I found somebody who could actually treat it, in a way that was manageable. And unfortunately back then we didn’t have the resources we have now where you can Google and you can type in and you can get just tons of information and, and misinformation. Right? That would’ve been a lifesaver back then. And, and we’re even seeing kids as young as five who are coming through for assessments and who have OCD. And so we’re catching it much sooner, which I really believe in. And I believe that that will be life-changing for them. 

Carrie: Absolutely. That’s huge. Just the ability to have early intervention. One of the things that I really like about NO CD is that you take insurance. That’s so huge. I know in the Nashville area, most of the providers, and there’s a large treatment center, most of them don’t take insurance. And so people can spend hundreds, thousands of dollars trying to get the help that they need. And some people just aren’t able to do that with their financial situation. 

Stacy: They are constantly adding more and more providers and trying to get more and more insurances to cover our services because it is such important work. And we see so many benefits. There are so many people who are getting better and it’s hard.

It’s hard to see the stories of people who can’t get the help they need, because. Insurance doesn’t cover it or, you know, it’s too expensive. And so it is, I think in general can be expensive depending on a lot of factors, but ERP in particular, but NO CD really does offer affordable payment plans for people who can’t afford. And so that’s been really great to see as well, people who wouldn’t normally get in treatment. 

That’s what we’re all about. We want everybody who’s suffering from this disorder to at least have access to that because a lot of rural communities, I know where I live, there was no specialists. And the people that I see as members often will say, well, there’s one specialist that’s, you know, within an hour range, but they have a six-month or a year wait list. That’s, what’s so amazing about NO CD is you can get in within a week. 

Carrie: Are these video session that you’re doing with people. I mean, it’s all Telehealth, right? Either through the app or the website. 

Stacy: It’s all Telehealth. There’s actually was just a study that came out about it and about how effective it is. It really is. I mean, I honestly, as somebody who has done face-to-face therapy for many, many years prior to this, I can honestly say I don’t notice a difference because in some ways it’s actually more helpful because I’m in the home with them. And I can walk with them like they’ll device throughout the house and do exposures. And so in some ways it’s actually more beneficial because I’m there with them. 

Carrie: I would agree with that. People being able to do those exposures in their own environment is really helpful and powerful. You’re able to do things that you wouldn’t be able to do in the office we have Telehealth. That’s something that people don’t realize. A lot of times they may look at Telehealth as, it’s a deficit or that’s not as good. But one thing that we learned through the pandemic when everyone was seeing their therapist online was how effective Telehealth can be. 

Stacy: Sometimes I feel like people are even more open. In this setting, then they are face to face. There’s almost like a safety net there or something, but people are more open and seem to be able to express themselves more quickly than maybe in a face-to-face setting for whatever reason.

Carrie: Awesome. I like to ask people a question as we get towards the end of the podcast. And since some of this was about your personal story and experience with OCD, I just am curious what is something that you wish you could go back and tell your younger self who is struggling? 

Stacy: I love this question. I get this question a lot, actually, cause I have had it for my entire life. I wish I could go back and say, you know, the things you’re worrying about, they don’t ever happen.

And when they do, you will get through it. You will because there’s no other choice. I wish I could get back time. I wish that I hadn’t spent so much time on this. That’s what I would tell myself.

I know it’s not a choice, obviously, as a kid, you don’t choose to have OCD and at the same time, I wish there had been someone to intervene to say, “Hey, this is a real thing, this is a disorder, this is how you treat it”. And then I would’ve been able to do that a lot sooner, but you can’t go back in time. You can’t undo the past. And so if it’s moving forward each day, I take it and I say, you know what? I’m not gonna waste any more time. Right? It’s already had a ton of time. That’s all it’s getting. And that doesn’t mean it’s perfect. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t creep up because it does. I’d be lying if I said otherwise, there are times when it’s hard, but it’s so much easier than it ever was. And I can truly say I’m 90% better and, and life is good. I wish I could just tell my little self, like, stop, stop being in your head. Just go have fun. 

Carrie: I think that’s so relevant to people with, with any mental health issue is sometimes we can get so laser focused in trying to fix something that we miss, that we’re a whole person with social relationships, hobbies, dreams, goals, desires, that this is not who you are as a person, your diagnosis. You’re a whole person who struggles in this area. And yes, it does affect some of those other domains. And I’m not making light of that, but it’s much better if we’re able to say, “Hey, I’m a person who struggles with this rather than I have this”. 

Thank you so much, Stacy, for taking the time to share with us your story and the work that you’re doing as a therapist on NOCD. We’re gonna put links in the show notes so that people who are looking for help or want to find out more information about you or NOCD. They can do that through the show notes. 

Stacy: Thank you for having me on this show. I appreciate it so much. And I hope that there are listeners out there who recognize some of these symptoms and can get some help a lot sooner. And I appreciate you doing the work you do to get the word out there about this.

Carrie: Thank you. I enjoy this episode with Stacy and I hope that you do too. We may invite her back to enter some more specific questions about scrupulosity. If you have and already please be sure to join our Facebook group. We’re really trying to create a positive and supportive environment for people with anxiety and OCD. But then a little neglect full time about giving in near and hosting things but I really want to work on. Growing back online community this year. You find the link in the show notes.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comfor

ted by God’s great love for you.

69. Let’s Talk About Hoarding with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 69. Let’s Talk About Hoarding with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

In this episode, Carriedives into the topic of hoarding, exploring its connection to OCD and offering practical advice for those struggling with it.

Episode Highlights:

  • How hoarding is linked to OCD and why it’s considered part of the OCD spectrum.
  • The emotional and psychological factors that contribute to hoarding behaviors.
  • The role family dynamics and genetics play in the development of hoarding tendencies.
  • How unresolved grief can trigger hoarding, especially after a significant loss.
  • The importance of separating personal identity from material possessions.
  • Practical strategies to help manage hoarding.

Episode Summary:

In today’s episode, we’re diving into the topic of letting go, specifically focusing on how hoarding connects to OCD and ways to heal.

Hoarding is often misunderstood, and many people don’t realise it’s part of the OCD spectrum. In this episode, I’m sharing insights from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) and the book Buried in Treasures by David Tolin, Randy O. Frost, and Gail Steketee.

Hoarding is characterized by the persistent difficulty in discarding possessions, even if they hold no real value. It often leads to emotional distress when trying to get rid of items and results in clutter that inhibits normal functioning.

Hoarding is often linked to OCD, and it’s crucial to understand this connection. Hoarding affects 2-6% of the population, with over 15 million people in the US alone struggling with it. What’s more, hoarding tends to run in families, which suggests there may be both genetic and learned factors contributing to it

People who hoard often find it difficult to categorize and make decisions about their possessions. They may struggle with perfectionism, procrastination, and difficulty letting go of sentimental items tied to past memories. This can make the process of decluttering feel overwhelming and emotionally charged.


While cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) offers strategies for managing hoarding, I believe it’s also important to acknowledge the emotional pain that often accompanies this struggle. For many, hoarding is a way to hold onto a piece of the past or to cope with unresolved grief, whether it’s the loss of a loved one or the loss of an identity

I hope this episode will provide comfort and guidance as you begin to let go and embrace the freedom God offers.

Related links and resources:

Book: Buried in Treasure

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders

Explore Related Episode:

Transcript

Today’s show is about learning to let go. And it’s for help for people who are struggling with hoarding. And I wanted to say a little bit upfront to give credit to where credit is. Some of this information is taken that I’m gonna share with you from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders also known for short as the DSM, as well as the Book buried in Treasures by David Tolin, Randy O. Frost, Gail Steketee. I hope I pronounce that last name specifically correctly. They have done a great job putting together research and provide practical advice in their book.

And then some of the material I’m going to share today is just based on my own personal experience of working with clients who have struggled with hoarding, I’ve made up various examples. They are not true clients examples, but they’re based on variations of things that I actually have.

Why in the world are we talking about hoarding on a show for Anxiety and OCD? Well, we are talking about hoarding because courting is an OCD spectrum disorder in the DSM five.
So there is a section on OCD followed by hoarding. Hair-pulling skin picking. So there’s a spectrum of some different things that are classified under OCD that the DSM is what counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists use to diagnose people. So there’s various criteria in there for those of you who aren’t familiar with the DSM, I should not just assume that you know what that is and I apologize.

A lot of people don’t realize that hoarding is part of the OCD spectrum of disorders. So let’s look at what are the actual criteria for being diagnosed with hoarding. There’s a persistent difficulty discarding or parting with possessions, regardless of their actual value. We all know someone who collects various things.

And some of those click tools may be really worth something a person hoarding things that are really valuable in their possessions that they could sell for money, but they also may be holding on to things that actually don’t have any value. It could be junk mail, recycling things, maybe that once had value, but have worn down and are no longer good. Or they’ve been sitting in an attic somewhere where they’ve overheated and deteriorate.

The difficulty getting rid of items is due to a perceived need to save the items in distress associated with discarding them. So there’s a need to say the item and we’re trying to not be in distress because when we try to get rid of things, there’s a level of emotional or psychological distress that comes with it.

The difficulty discarding, possessions results and accumulation of possessions that congest and clutter active living areas and substantially compromised their intended use. That’s the third criteria in the DSM. So for example, if you have a guest bathroom, but it’s so full of extra toilet paper, paper towels, and laundry detergent that you extreme coupon found on sale that you can’t actually get in that shower.

That guest bathroom, or maybe there’s a kitchen that’s so cluttered that you can’t actually get in there and cook anything in that. The fourth criteria is that it inhibits functioning often, socially, for example, people who struggle with hoarding may not be able to invite anybody over. They may isolate themselves from other people due to their hoarding disorder.
And there is also a potential to add on what is called a modifier to the diagnosis, which is an excessive acquisition, meaning that they keep acquiring items, keep bringing them into the.

So let’s talk about how common is hoarding. Hoarding affects actually two to 6% of the population, according to the DSM, over 15 million people in the US. That’s a pretty high number and it’s actually a small percentage of people that struggle seek help. Usually, there are other people trying to seek help on their behalf. They see this behavior as a problem, and the people that do seek help may have some kind of external pressure on them to get better. So maybe their spouse is really upset is cause causing some intense conflict in the mirror.

Maybe they’re single and they want to have a relationship, but they feel like, okay, I can’t even invite anybody over. So I don’t feel like I can date successfully. Maybe they just want to be more socially connected in examples, such as retirement, maybe someone is trying to downsize and move from a full, you know, three bedroom house to a smaller town home, something of that nature, and they’re having trouble and they might kind of seek help for this issue. Or they may have. Some kind of government, external pressure, maybe the codes department has been called on them. Someone’s complained about, you know, rubbish in the yard. Maybe social services has gotten involved either our children and someone’s come in and said, Hey, you’ve really got to clean this area up.

Those people don’t necessarily want to seek help on their own, but they’re kind of backed into a corner and have to, or otherwise they’re not going to be able to get what they want. Hoarding typically runs in families. And about half of the people who struggle report also having a relative who hoards as well.
So whenever we’re looking at things that run in families, it’s kind of hard to tease out. Is that because there are some genetic components, is that because this is a learned behavior. If we’re seeing other people do something, obviously where you may have a tendency to pick up on. It’s quite possible that the individual grew up in a family where there were certain messages surrounding items that they internalize and then therefore are living out in their adult life.

Maybe some examples are that item was a gift. You can’t give that away. Somebody really thought of you and they gave you that item. You got a hold on. Or, you know, you need to hold onto this item because you might actually need that some day. Yeah. You’re not using it right now, but it may really come in handy later. We have to catch that sale. We’ve got to buy things, even if we don’t need them quite yet while they’re on sale. So how does. This hoarding develop will. It seems like there are some genetic and temperamental components and that’s where the authors of the buried in treasures did some research. They put people in MRI machines and they were having them make decisions while they were actively looking at the areas of their brain that were over-activated or under activated.

It’s actually really interesting. And I encourage you to go get the book and read on that. If you struggle with hoarding or if you know someone who struggles, there’s also a lot of advice in the book for family members and how to approach your loved one as well. So that may be beneficial if you’re listening on behalf of a loved one, who’s struggling.
What they found through this study was that there were different levels of activity and key parts of the brain between the person struggling with hoarding and the person in the typical population. They had a harder time categorizing their own stuff, but it didn’t interfere with them categorizing other people’s.

So seeing certain things as special kind of can be a common issue. And so then if it’s special, it kind of gets its own category. And we can’t put things together. In other categories, there are some common struggles and overlap that it’s seen in people who struggle with hoarding in terms of difficulty with attention, making decisions.

There you tend to be more creative because they look at items and think, oh, well, we could use it this way. Or I could use that to do this, that somebody else may not necessarily see the value in something. There may be a tendency to want to do everything perfectly like struggling with perfectionism and a tendency to procrastinate, to put things off, you know?
Okay. I really do want to organize this. I feel like it’s gotta be perfect. So then I put it off because I can’t do it. You know, it’s overwhelming. Maybe someone has, for example, a train collection and they want to sell this train collection, but first they have to organize the train collection maybe by type of year, the year that it came out.

And then I have to figure out how am I going to sell them. Am I going to put them in a yard sale? Well, no, that maybe seems a lot of work to label everything. And then who wants to do a yard? So with only trains, well, I could put them on Facebook marketplace, but then I have to take these pictures and figure out how do I list that? And if I listed on marketplace then I have to meet up with somebody and where am I going to meet up with them? And if I post it on another website to sell it online, you know, I’ve got to take these pictures and figure out how I’m going to get payment. The Venmo app, you know, what do I do?

I use PayPal and then there’s a sense of exhaustion and just feeling defeated like, oh, this feels like it’s going to be too much work to make this happen and ended up in decision overload.

We ended up in decision overload. What happens? We just have this tendency to shut down and not do it. Another issue is the sense of feeling sentimental attachment. Now we’ve all had some level of this, right? We have an item. It’s not necessarily worth anything to anyone else, but to us, it’s tied to a memory or a specific time in our life.

And we think, “Okay, I don’t want to let that go because the attachment to this object reminds me of positive things where it reminds me of an important person in my life.” Maybe it was something that they gave me or something that we did together. One thing I’ve noticed in my work with people who struggle with hoarding is that they have a tendency to view their better days as being in the past. So they have these items that allow them to reminisce about the past, where the better days were, for example, if an individual used to surf, let’s say they lived by the ocean. Now, maybe they don’t live by the ocean or they don’t go surfing anymore. Maybe they’ve had an injury where they can no longer.

But yet they have a collection of surfing supplies and you know, they’ve got the surfboard, they’ve got the wax that goes on the board. Other things that I don’t even know about surfing, but they have the wetsuits, everything that goes with surfing. They’ve got a whole collection of stuff yet. They’re not using it.

They’re not going to use it because they don’t surf. But when I look at that, I think, man, wasn’t that really great when I could get out in the water. Feeling the wind on my face and being catching a wave. It’s awesome. So that’s maybe just one example of how someone might hold on to items to really reminisce about good things that they experienced, even though they don’t need the items or they’re not using the.
We’ll talk about a little bit later in terms of healing from that people may hoard and hold onto things because it’s a part of their identity. They may view themselves as a collector like, oh, this is a collector’s item. I have all of these collector or board games from years and years ago that I want to hold on to probably are worth something.

I maybe a person holds on to craft supplies because they want to view themselves as an artist or painting supplies, even though they don’t paint, but they would like to be able to do some of those things. I know that for myself having been a foster parent, I had a lot of kid items around the house and it was hard to get rid of some of those things because being a foster parent obviously had been my identity for that time period.

And I didn’t know really what the future held for me. You know, maybe I would marry someone with kids and what if I needed some of these items? It was a process that I had to go through to realize, you know, I’m not living that life anymore. That’s not my identity. So I don’t need to hold on to things tied to that identity.

People may also struggle because they get a high from acquiring possessions. Oh. I saw a great sale at the thrift store. I got these pants for half off and I got this item and look, it was only a dollar. I went to this yard sale and isn’t this awesome. And they may buy stuff that they don’t need just because they feel like it’s a good price.
And then there’s this like elevation of self-worth and value that they feel of being able to find this good deal. Now I mentioned the book buried in treasure. This book is a CBT-based book. So it was based on cognitive behavioral therapy. And that’s the approach that they take to overcoming hoarding.

It’s very good material. And one thing that that approach hasn’t addressed really that I’ve seen is this tendency of something that I’ve noticed connected to hoarding and. The unresolved and at times traumatic grief and a loss that seems to come with it, this attachment to items that are tangible way of keeping a connection between the person and something or someone that they have lost.

It’s not always a loved one. When we talk about grief and loss. But it can be, it can be a situation where they’ve lost a loved one. A spouse has died and they feel like they just can’t get rid of their stuff. They’ve got to hold onto it because somehow that is connected to the memory of that person. And if they let it go.

They feel like I’m going to lose that person all over again. It also, the loss can be connected to things that they used to be doing, but aren’t doing anymore. So I gave the example of like being a foster parent in my own life. Other people, they may have been a Sunday school teacher when they were younger.

They may have coloring pages. They may have flannel graphs for anyone who remembers those things. Who are you? You stick the picture on the flannel. Nobody even uses that anymore, but someone might be holding onto it going, oh, that was such a good time. Like when I was a Sunday school teacher and pouring into the little kids and wasn’t that fun and awesome.

So really going through and grieving those losses. We’ll talk about this later is an important part of the healing process. Because if you don’t grieve those losses that are connected to these items, you’re not going to be able to get rid of the items. I remember another personal example for myself, of some things that I’ve struggled with getting rid of.

I had an entire room of play therapy tools. At my old office, this is now two offices ago. I had a specific room dedicated to seeing children and made a decision at that point in my practice that I didn’t want to work as many evenings. I wanted to kind of prepare for hopefully my own family life. At some point wanted to have more work-life balance.

I wasn’t seeing a whole lot of kids and it didn’t make sense to have this entire room full of. However, it was hard to let go of those things because I had acquired them over time. Over years of working with children, probably I don’t know, five to seven years. And that was hard for me to say, I’m no longer a play therapist.

I’m no longer doing this type of work. And what if I regret this decision? I, I get rid of all this stuff and then decide, I want to work with kids. Yeah, of course, that is a possibility, but that didn’t happen to me. I’m actually very happy and pleased with that decision. And I sold those toys to a friend who was going to do more types of play therapy, expressive therapy, and hopefully got some good use out of those.

Now that I’ve given you an overview, talk through some examples. I want to talk about the. Things that can be done to help. If you recognize that this is a problem within yourself, what are some things that can be done to learn, to let go of items, to not have to continue dealing with wording anymore?

Number one is recognize that this is a problem that you need help with. That is really hard for any issue that we’re facing to admit that we need help with something. As we talked about before, oftentimes. People who are struggling with hoarding either. Don’t recognize that they need the help, or they recognize that they have a bit of a problem, but they think they can manage it on their own.

Now you’re going to need different types of help and support. You’re going to need some professional support. Hopefully, you can find someone in your community or online, a therapist who has worked with hoarding in the past to give you that professional support and perspective, you’re going to need some personal support, not people who are going to come in and be overbearing or rushy to get rid of stuff but are going to come alongside with you and work with you at your own pace.
These are going to be people maybe that can help you bring some stuff to give away, to, to donate. Maybe they can help you move some furniture out of your house. Or they can just provide that encouragement in moral support of just saying, you know, I know this is really hard for you, but I’m so proud of you that you are tackling this issue in your life.
That goes a long way. Oftentimes we underestimate the power of personal support for someone who is struggling with a mental health issues. And we don’t need to underestimate that because it’s very valuable. Now you may need. Medical help. Um, you may need to look at medication as an option, especially if you have co-occurring disorders, something like ADHD, that’s getting in the way, anxiety, depression, then, you know, you may look at medication as an option to treat some of those things so that you can go through the behaviors and really tackle especially if you are working at this from a cognitive behavioral standpoint and you’re having trouble making progress, I always encourage people who don’t want to take medication to really, okay. We’ll try therapy, those tools, the self-help things for a little while. And then if you’re not making progress, maybe we’ll circle back around and evaluate whether medication might be an option at that point.

Step two, you’re going to have to commit time and I’m talking to them. Every day or at least five days a week to commit to the process of recovery, to commit to the process of cleaning up your space. Obviously, it didn’t get that way overnight and it’s not going to be cured overnight. You’re not just going to have an extreme home makeover most likely now.
The book. And then I talked about recommends really building up, I believe from maybe 15 minutes a day to eventually getting to a point where you’re working on this an hour a day to really make tangible progress, three, develop a positive view of the future. We talked about how people who struggle with hoarding can be very past-oriented.

The good times are behind me reminiscing. Wasn’t that awesome when we did this or that. So I really want to encourage you for a Christian standpoint to visualize yourself, blessing people with the items that you have and finding joy. In giving, because there really is a joy that comes from giving to others that would be beneficial for you to tap into and it’ll help ease the pain of getting rid of certain items.

I know that that’s been my experience in terms of getting things, when I was able to bless someone else with it, it was a lot easier to let those things go. Another way you can develop a positive view of the future is to really visualize what is it going to be like to have this life that you want, where you’re inviting friends and family into your living room.

Just really picture that in your mind there’s nothing on the couch, other than people actually sitting there and maybe a couple of throw pillows. Visualize that empty space, maybe where you have boxes right now, visualize your bank account, having more money because you’re not spending a bunch of money, accumulating things you don’t need at yard.

So thrift stores or on Amazon visualize your life without horses. Playing with your grandchildren more often finding a spouse, focusing on one hobby, instead of trying to focus on the things that you can’t do anymore, telling yourself that the better days are ahead of you and not all your good memories are going to be found in the past anymore because you’re going to be creating new, positive memories in the future.

And that’s going to be really awesome.

Step four. Figure out how to stop acquiring new items. There’s time dedicated in the buried in treasures book that helps with this as well. But if you don’t stop acquiring new items, then you’re fighting this losing battle, right? Because if you get rid of a bunch of stuff in your house, and then you go to the yard sale and you buy 20 more things, then you’re just going in circles.

You may have to stop going to the places that you acquire stuff temporarily. So let’s say that you are a shopaholic related to like Ross, TJ Maxx, some of those discount stores. Maybe you need to stay away from those places for a while, until you’re able to get some of the tools under your belt to be able to go in there and not acquire.

You may have to set up a rule for yourself if you’re an online shopper and you’re always having things mailed to you through Amazon or some of those other stores. You may set a rule for yourself where you say, okay, I am not going to buy anything until it sits in my cart for at least 24 hours.

And then I’ll reevaluate whether or not I actually really need that. If you put this into play in your life, I’ve actually had some clients that have tried this that just felt like they were shopaholics, not even necessarily hoarders. So they felt like they were spending too much money on Amazon on things that they didn’t need.

And I said, okay, well set a rule for yourself that it’s got to stay in your cart overnight, or it’s got to stay in your cart for 24 hours so that you’re not impulse purchase. Step five is to do the intellectual work. This is the cognitive part of the work, finding the belief systems that are holding you back.

What are the thoughts that are keeping you stuck? So it may be something like, I need this. We tell ourselves that we need things all the time when we actually don’t need them. They’re often a want the things that we tell ourselves that we need. The IMEI use this someday. If you haven’t used it in the last three years, you’re probably not going to use it in the next three years.

Some people have appliances for every kind of function in the kitchen when they don’t use them, they may use one or two appliances and have 10. I remember getting rid of some round cake pans awhile back because I realized, well, I used to do a lot of baking. I enjoyed it. It was a thing. And I thought, when was the last time I actually made a cake number one and there were two, if I do make a cake, I don’t tend to use the round pan because then you’ve got to stack to have the icing layer in the middle of like probably gonna use the rectangle pan and just make the cake that way. So I got rid of those and I don’t regret it in the slightest or miss them because I wasn’t using. Now the book has a lot of worksheets where you can ask yourself different questions to evaluate items of why you’re really holding on to them.

So if you want to dig in and do that work, you may have thoughts. Like, you know, this is a good deal, so I have to buy it or I can get some money out of it. So I have to sell it. This refers to things that you already own. Like, well, I can’t get rid of that yet. I’ve got to find a way to sell it. We talked about some of these things already, but to get rid of this item would disrespect the memory of my loved one or cause me to forget them in some way.
Or I can’t get rid of stuff until I can sort it out perfectly and put it into the right category. Realistically, you have to realize that whatever space you have, it can only hold so many items. Going back to the visualization. Let’s say you have 10 pictures, but you can only fit five in the room.

That means you have five to get rid of, because you can have a whole lot of especially decorations, decor type items that you don’t have the space to put up or show off. And it may be time to let those things go. Along with the intellectual work. Number six is you’ve got to be able to do the emotional work to either heal from the trauma or grieve the loss.

Some losses can be very traumatic to us, such as the loss of a loved one or pets. Now I have helped people process through things like watching their. Get hit by a car that is a very traumatic loss. It’s sudden it’s unexpected. There’s a tendency to blame yourself. And people may think, well, how in the world is that connected to hoarding or to holding onto things, but it can be when you are really sitting with a skilled counselor and you start to trace some of these things back, some of this tendency to hold on to things and the discomfort of letting it go.

Sometimes that’s where it goes back to. It could be a sense of a sudden move. Those can also be traumatic. Maybe you had to leave a place suddenly. Maybe you lost a bunch of items in a fire. I don’t know, but processing through that trauma can really be beneficial having a long-term illness or injury, a chronic health condition, an injury that has prevented you from doing other things.

There may be things that you’re not able to do that you used to be able to do. That’s a law. Then a lot of times we don’t acknowledge within ourselves and specifically within our society, that if you go through something like whether it’s cancer or whether it’s an auto-immune disorder and all of a sudden there are these limitations that you haven’t had before.
There is some grief and loss associated with that. You don’t have the energy that you used to have. You don’t have maybe the same supports that you used to have. There could be all different kinds of factors in there. Oftentimes when we’re talking about loss, there’s the big loss, right? Whether it’s the loss of the person and then there’s all the little loss that go along with it.

So for example, if I, worst case scenario lost my husband, Steve tomorrow, if he died in some way, then there would be all of these little things that Steve does and just kind of takes care of. It could be something as little as he feeds the cats in the morning and in the. Now every time I go to feed the cat, I’m thinking, oh, you know, Steve used to do that.
That’s a reminder, these bigger losses, there’s all these little things that can get wrapped up and connected into them. And if we don’t take time to really process that into cry and to journal and to grieve and to let go. Then we’re missing out on being able to work through that grief. Unfortunately, I don’t know how it is in a lot of other places, but in America, people rush through the grief process.

\They go from one thing and it’s like, tomorrow’s a new day and they just expect themselves to move on and not have any issues. Unfortunately, that’s not the way that we work, that our minds and emotions and body works. We need to be able to take time to process, to grieved, to elect. Number seven as with all forms of OCD.
Since this is an OCD spectrum disorder, a person with hoarding is going to have to learn to be able to sit with the discomfort that comes from letting go of items, because there is going to be some discomfort that. And the whole point of doing this work on the front end, the intellectual work, the emotional work, the spiritual work is to be able to get to a place where you can sit with discomfort, where it’s to a manageable level, that you can work through it so that it’s not a traumatic issue getting rid of. Because if someone just were to come in tomorrow and clean out your stuff and you struggle with hoarding, that would be traumatic for you. You wouldn’t want that to happen. However, you want to be able to pace yourself and go through this process so that you can get to a place we’re seeing.

You’re mindful in your space, how you’re feeling, what thoughts you’re having about getting rid of things. And then you can sit with the discomfort, work through it. So that it’s not as uncomfortable as it is initially looking at getting rid of an eye. Now, since this is a Christian podcast, I want to talk about this from a spiritual perspective.
For a moment, Jesus talks about storing up treasures in heaven, in not on the earth. There’s also a parable about a man who basically becomes rich, gathers a bunch of grain stores things, and then. Next thing, you know, he dies and none of it really matters that he had all these acquisition of items is because in the end, you know, he died and he had to give an

account for his soul at that.
We know that God doesn’t want us to have anything as an idol. That’s over him. You know, “you shall have no other gods before me or not have graven images.” And a lot of times we think that, oh, we don’t have idols like people have idols maybe in other places. But we all have idols in our lives that we have to confess and work through.
Whether that idol is stuff, money, relationship, it could be so many different things that people are putting above their relationship with God. And so understanding and confessing and recognizing that stuff can become an idol in your life. Even if you don’t want it to that, that’s something that can creep up on you.

And so addressing this from a spiritual perspective, really working through in prayer and confessing to God that just stuff has become out of control. And that you want to give that control back over to him, that you want to be able to release these items and allowing prayer to become a part of this process, I think would be helpful and important for you.

Prayer can be a process also in processing through the grief and losses. Like really telling God how you feel, what you think, why you feel like you have to hold onto this stuff. And as we’re praying, and as we’re processing through those things, God works on our heart, allows things to be a little bit easier and a little bit easier as you commit to that work, to letting it go really praying through what is a good time of the day.

Maybe for me to work on this, whether it’s in the morning, whether it’s in the evening, whether it’s right after you get off work, how are you going to do this?

Allowing this spiritual sense of godly accountability in your life can fastening to someone else that this is an issue. There’s so many ways that you could incorporate spirituality in terms of healing from hoarding disorder.
God does not want us to be ruled or owned by anything. And that includes our stuff. We did another episode a while back, if you have not heard it, I would encourage you to go back and listen to it. And that’s episode 49 on will. Less stuff, equal, less anxiety. That episode is a personal story about Christian minimalism. It’s a very good episode that has a lot of spiritual in it as well.

So I encourage you to listen to that one for more spiritual applications in terms of getting rid of. So if you’ve been listening to the show for a while, you know that at the end of every podcast, I like to share a story of hope, which is a time where someone received hope from God or another person.

And often I asked my guests that question, since this is a solo episode, I have to come up with stories of hope for you from my own life. And here’s one that came to me recently. I, if you’ve been following along with the podcast and myself and my own journey, My husband, Steve, you know, that we just had a beautiful little daughter named faith and she is fabulous.
We are so excited to have her in our lives and it’s been a really a long road to get to having faith. And so that’s how she got the name of faith, of course, because. There were so many things. I waited probably over 10 years to become a mother from the time that I started my foster care journey. So one day I’m holding my daughter and she’s asleep and looking absolutely adorable.

And it’s just really these beautiful times that we have for me to be able to pray over her and to thank God for her. And I was having this moment with my daughter that was just really beautiful and spiritual, and something happened where I started to really ponder God and being God, being all-knowing and God being sovereign.
In the world and I thought, okay. So God knew ahead of time that I was going to have this moment with my daughter. And I don’t mean like he knew ahead of time as in earlier in the day. I mean, God knew that I was gonna have this baby and be sitting here watching her sleeping feeling. Incredibly blessed.

God knew that 10 years ago when I lost my foster daughters and God knew that I was going to have this moment several years ago when my first husband wanted a divorce and walked out the door and wanted nothing else to do with me and all these painful moments of my life. I’m going to talk about my daughter’s birth story related to my pregnancy and in a future episode, but there were some complications that came up at the end, shall we say, where I had this higher chance of stillbirth. And of course, that’s very scary when a doctor tells you that. So here, I’m going through this crying and praying, like, don’t let me lose this baby. Now that I’ve gone through all of the. And in that moment, God knew I was going to have this beautiful moment where I’m thanking him because my daughter is here now.

So whatever you’re going through right now may be incredibly painful and you may not see anything good here. Or anything good coming out of it or anything? Beautiful arriving later because when I went through some of those painful experiences in my life, I didn’t see how they could be good on ever like on the other side and just really.
So angry or frustrated or sad with God and in how some of those situations turned out. But God had a plan. He knew what he was doing, and it’s so hard for us in the now to trust him. But that’s what I encourage you to do with whatever’s messy and uncomfortable and scary. In your life to really lean in and trust God to know that he wants to bless you with these beautiful moments. If you are serving him, if you are seeking to honor him, that he wants to make the beauty from the ashes and heal. You from this pain that you’re experiencing. And there is a beautiful and wonderful gift on the other side, at the end of our pain and suffering that we don’t see, we have no concept of at the time.

So that’s my story of hope for you today. I hope that that encourages you. I’m so glad that you decided to tune in today. If you are struggling with hoarding and you feel like you need additional professional support and you are in the state of Tennessee, I want to let you know that I plan to start a support group in the fall for people who are struggling with hoarding and really want to take action steps towards getting to a better place with this who want to do the intellectual, emotional work and want the accountability for putting the time and effort in.

So if that is something that you’re interested in, please contact me through my counseling website www.bythecounseling.com. I don’t have specific days and times for that group yet, but I will post information about it on my site and encourage you to contact me if you’re interested in being a part of that group, or if you’re interested in receiving individual therapy for hoarding.

I am back from maternity leave on June 1st and we’ll be taking on several more clients is since I’ve been off for a while. And if you’ve been looking to get into counseling summer is a great time because counselors often have more openings in the summer because people are on vacation and various things.

So if you need to go to counseling because you’re struggling with hoarding and OCD, spectrum issue, or any other mental health condition, don’t wait, go ahead and get that ball rolling.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

65. ACT Therapy for Anxiety and OCD with Ingrid Ord, psychotherapist and author

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie interviews Ingrid Ord, a therapist and author of ACT with Faith, about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). They discuss how ACT helps individuals accept difficult emotions and take action toward their values, particularly in managing anxiety and OCD.

Episode Highlights:

  • The power of accepting anxiety and fear instead of avoiding them, leading to personal growth and progress.
  • ACT’s role in OCD treatment, helping individuals confront anxiety without relying on compulsive behaviors.
  • How ACT helps people separate their values from their obsessions, reducing guilt and shame in OCD.
  • The connection between ACT and Christian faith, offering a deeper understanding of life’s struggles through God’s promises.

Episode Summary:

Today, we’re diving into Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) with Ingrid Ord, a therapist and author. ACT is gaining traction in OCD treatment, and I’m excited to share what I learned from Ingrid. ACT emphasizes accepting discomfort and taking committed action, even when anxiety or fear tries to stop you.

Ingrid shared that she gravitated toward ACT after trying other methods like CBT and REBT. ACT felt gentler and more in line with her values, making it a better fit for her and her clients.

In ACT, we accept the anxiety we feel instead of avoiding it. For example, if you’re anxious about a job interview, ACT helps you recognize that the anxiety is tied to your values—like wanting to make a good impression—and encourages you to act despite the anxiety. This approach is particularly helpful for OCD, where compulsions and avoidance only feed the anxiety.

ACT also highlights the importance of connecting with your values. For someone with OCD, recognizing that their obsessions don’t align with their true values—such as harming others—can help reduce guilt and shame.

For those of us with faith, ACT’s principles align well with trusting God’s plan. Ingrid and I discussed how faith can strengthen acceptance, especially when we’re dealing with difficult situations like chronic pain or anxiety. Even when we don’t understand why we’re struggling, leaning into God’s grace can help us find meaning and strength in our challenges.

I hope this conversation helps you rethink how you approach therapy and empowers you to accept your struggles while still taking steps forward.

Related Links and Resources:

Ingrid Ord

ACT with Faith

Transcript

If you’ve been a fan of the show for a long time, you know that we love to discuss different types of therapy here. I could be helpful for people who are struggling with anxiety or OCD. I like to do that because you always hear people say, “Eh, I tried therapy. It didn’t work for me”. Did therapy not work because it wasn’t the right modality for you? Did therapy not work because you didn’t have a great relationship with your therapist? There are so many variables there that we could die suck. 

Today on this show, we are talking with Ingrid Ord, who is a therapist and author of ACT With Faith. ACT is a type of therapy that we’re going to be talking about today. And that stands for Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. If you want the long name, this wasn’t a therapy I knew much about. So, it was interesting to learn from Ingrid. And I know it’s a therapy that’s being incorporated more and more in OCD treatment. I hope you enjoy this interview.

Ingrid, I believe that therapists choose modalities like therapy that align with them personally and professionally. So I’m curious: how did you become so interested in acceptance and commitment therapy, also called ACT?

Ingrid: I’ve been working for a number of years, right? The modality I was in before I went to CBT and REBT was client-centered therapy, which fit me very well. REBT, Rational, Emotive, Behavior, Therapy. And it can be quite very proactive, and I found that quite hard. Then I found ACT, and suddenly, there was a therapy that did everything I’d been training up until that point. But allowed a much softer, gentler approach to actually being in the client’s space and not pulling them into your space. 

Carrie: REBT is pretty confrontational.

Ingrid: It’s very confrontational, and you have your disputations. It works really well. They were male lawyers.

Carrie: Certain populations might be necessary for us.

Ingrid: Certain populations. The thing with ACT is that it seems to work at the cold front. It’s one of the few therapies I’ve found that when the patient or the client actually needs it, it works for them. 

Carrie: Okay. So, tell us a little bit about what ACT therapy entails. 

Ingrid: Well, very much as the name says, within the acceptance part, it’s about willingly accepting that we have experiences that we don’t want and going into the experience. And being with it because these experiences invariably tell us something very important about our values. If I’m anxious about something, it’s probably because it’s something that there’s something in there that’s very important to me. So, if I’m anxious about meeting someone, it could be that it’s very important to me to make a good impression on this person. And why is it important to me? Maybe I’m envisaging a future relationship, a job, or something like that. It’s important to be within the experience itself. It’s tempting not to want to be there, to distract ourselves, and to all the denial stuff. And so the link between accepting what we’ve got in the moment and committing ourselves to taking action will take us in the direction of our values. Never mind what’s going on. What’s very attractive to me? 

Carrie: So there’s a sense of I’m accepting that I have anxiety about maybe going to a job interview because I want to look good or I really want a new job, but even though I’m anxious, I’m still going to work through that to the point where I’m committed to saying, I’m still going to put myself out there for this opportunity. I’m still going to the interview, show up, and do my best. 

Ingrid: Yes. So you take public speaking is a common problem with many people often, you know, seen this done in, in workshops and I do it myself is to acknowledge to the people there, how anxious I am, but I’m here because this is very important to me putting this across is a very important thing. And so I brought my anxiety was me, and I’m doing it anyway. 

Carrie: That’s good. I imagine that you’ve seen that it can help people with anxiety work through avoidance because avoidance feeds that cycle of anxiety and worsens everything. 

Ingrid: No, yes. I have a very dear friend in the app community, Robin Molson. She showed me in one of the first workshops. It’s a series of concentric circles. We’re right in the beginning of the circle, is what you are not wondering. And then the next circle will be what you do to avoid it. And then the next circle will be the results of what you’re doing to avoid it. And then there’s another biggest circle, the results of the results. So you end up with a little problem in the middle and the huge amount of consequences from actually avoiding taking action and sitting, you know, doing what you needed to do, whatever it is that you need to do that you’re anxious about.

Carrie: I’m curious about this in terms of OCD. Where people are taking action, but they’re doing things that they don’t want to be doing. They’re engaging in compulsions, trying to get out of repetitive thought patterns. What would ACT say about that? 

Ingrid: Well, one of the first things within there is the good old exposure exercises that you do and help the person to expose themselves to the situation so that they actually feel the anxiety. OCD is a specialized sort of area in that not that you have to be specialized, but you need to realize that the obsessions and the compulsions are there in order not to feel the anxiety. So you help the person go backward in the process to hopefully not do the compulsion or let the obsession go. And then, they will feel the anxiety and expose themselves to the feeling of the anxiety as being something totally normal. It’s going to happen. 

You have anxiety and are doing all these things to stop yourself from feeling anxiety. That is totally normal, but now it’s all become a big problem on its own.

So we need to unpick that take you backward so that you see that you actually can feel the anxiety. And live and get on with things, and it goes away. It always amazes me how people are so amazed that it goes away that you will stop thinking about this. You will, and it will go away if you stop listening to it and arguing with them.

Carrie: Right. And I think sometimes, in OCD treatment, that first step is really developing an awareness of how this plays out in a person’s life. And then being able to separate, like, I am not my OCD. I’m dealing with OCD.

Ingrid: Oh, yes.

Carrie: But it’s not my character. I may have these obsessions about hurting someone, but that’s not my value system. My value system is in loving people and caring for people. And that’s been shown through their behavior. 

Ingrid: Yes, absolutely. And it’s strange that you should mention that about, you know, not me and my values system. Very often that is a factor within OCD is that things are occurring, obsessions, compulsions that are totally in opposition to what their value systems are, which, of course, creates an immense amount of guilt and shame and so on, and actually help the person to understand that because it’s in your value system. That’s why you have these. The very fact that you’re so afraid of that means you’re going to have the obsession of the compulsion. 

Carrie: And we’ve talked about this before on the show, I think in your relationship to scrupulosity that people.

Ingrid: Yes.

Carrie: Those who are more spiritual and who have a connection to God are more likely to struggle with scrupulosity if they have OCD. I think that I can really see how this would be helpful for people with that sense of, there’s say, acceptance over the issue. And then you even said something earlier about taking it along with you. Can you talk with us a little bit more about that? Cause I know that that’s also a principle.

Ingrid: I often use the metaphor of a backpacker over the shoulder bag and say, look, you’ve got this thing, and it’s stuck to you, and it’s not going to go away. It’s like one of those magnetic games: as you move, it’s going to move with you. So instead of spinning off, trying to push it away, put it in your backpack, put it in your sling bag, and go and do what you want anyway because it won’t leave you.

So go ahead and do it. And it really helps to visualize it as well. So sometimes, I’ve had somebody visualize a little purple man who was giving her absolutely. I guess you should put them in the bag about herself, esteem, and all arresters and take him with you. And, of course, she must always be careful not to disrespect the mind. You’re not showing disrespect for the mind because the person needs to know your mind is doing its job. It’s just doing it in a bit of a weird way right now. 

Carrie: It’s trying to protect you.

Ingrid: We always need to be careful not to undermine the mind’s job and get the person to feel that their mind is somehow defective. That’s actually a very important part of actors. There is nothing wrong with you. You’ve got problems because there’s everything right with you. 

Carrie: Oh, wow. This is a very interesting reframe for people. 

Ingrid: Isn’t it wonderful?

Carrie: It takes off that shame layer, really.

Ingrid: Yes. And the fear of, you know, am I losing it? I always joke that the least funny joke ever is of all the things I’ve lost in life. I miss my mind the most. 

Carrie: I’m curious for you: how does ACT therapy align with faith in God and biblical teaching?

Ingrid: Actually, that’s a very close fit because the stitching with the thing I’m trying to avoid and actually sitting with it and willingly accepting it is much easier as a Christian because I have got the added strength of grace without being a Christian. I willingly accept that struggling against this thing will make me worse, but that’s just pure straight logic, and I learn it throu

Transcript

Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 65. If you’re new to the show, I’m your host, Carrie Bock. And we are all about using shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others.gh experience, and that’s how it works. But now that I’m a Christian, I know that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord. And so whatever I’m experiencing is somehow going to work towards my good. And if I am in it and with it and thinking about God’s promises, you know what He has promised me here, it increases my faith. 

Carrie: Everything is purposeful. I think one thing as Christians that we fight against sometimes. Is, you know, okay, God, why am I going through this? Can you please take it away so that I don’t have to deal with it anymore because it’s uncomfortable and it’s painful. And I know that you have the power to do that. And instead of, like you were saying, really leaning in and saying, okay, there must be some purpose that this experience is here.

Ingrid: Yes.

Carrie: And God has allowed it in my life for some reason or another, you know, maybe it’s to help somebody down the road. That’s going to be going through a similar experience; maybe it’s to grow my character internally, and I could see how this therapy could help you lean into that. 

Ingrid: Sometimes it’s to help me to learn something that I really need to learn. You’re like recently after I tell you at the end, but we’ve been living on a boat, and I tend to live in my head, but you can’t when you’re on a boat, and I’ve seen some many beautiful things and outside that I wouldn’t have been part of. Cause that would have been busy in my hand. 

Carrie: I know for me right now, I’m dealing with some chronic back pain related to my pregnancy. It’s taught me so much about many different things, but really relying on God, understanding my limitations, and having compassion for my clients with chronic pain. I think that it’s not over yet. So, I think there are probably still more things that I will learn or somehow will grow from this experience of going through it. 

But it is hard to accept when you’re in the middle of it. You know, it’s like, I can take my back pain with me to exercise and recognize that I don’t feel like exercising because I’m in pain. But when I start to do the stretching and the yoga and the things that I know will be good for me and the core exercises, I start to feel better. And I know that what I’m doing is not exacerbating anything. It’s trying to help the other muscles support my back and support. So I can see that in what we’re talking about today.

Ingrid: And would you say that it would then help you with empathy was chronic pain patients who sometimes seem to be quite childish, or it helps to have empathy with that to say, I know it feels really, really, really hard. 

Carrie: Sure. Have you seen in terms of biblical characters that you’ve studied how they may have accepted a situation and then acted based on it?

Ingrid: One of the things that mean a lot to me is the three Hebrew children, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, being thrown in the fire. And they said,” I think it was never that our God could save us from the fire, but even if he doesn’t, we still weren’t worshipping here.” That’s been a lot to me. There’ve been a few occasions in my life where, you know, you’re up against it, and it’s like, do this or else. And even if God doesn’t save me. So that’s one and the other one, really his job, even though he slays me when I trust him.

Carrie: Yes.

Ingrid: I struggle to get through this without getting emotional. But there’ve been very, very hard times in my life where that’s resonated in my head that God, I don’t know what you’re doing. And it feels like this is killing me, but I trust you. 

Carrie: Tell us a little about the book you wrote, “ACT With Faith.”

Ingrid: Well, I wrote it initially. The audience I chose was non-Christian therapists because I believe that there are many out there who are highly competent and would be very willing to work with Christians. With their own belief because, you know, ACT has a pragmatic Trist criteria which states that whatever the client believes is the truth in that room at that time. So even with a non-Christian therapist, Christian clients’ truths are what’s important. 

So, I thought I’d put out there what Christian truth is in terms of the six ACT processes or the six major processes lined in ACT. So, the therapists could relate process by process to various aspects of Christians’ beliefs. And I also wanted to give them eight for their Christian clients. So I put in a whole lot of appendices, which a client hands out, but if there’s something they don’t understand, like grace, they can hand it to their clients, and their clients can see how it relates to the whole ACT process.

Carrie: I like that a lot. Who has been resonating with the book, or have there been other people as well that have picked up on it, maybe clients that have read it and resonated with it or a Christian therapist?

Ingrid: I found it actually at a wide range of people because many clients have resonated with it. And people who are not Christians. People have come to me to say, “How can we adapt this for Muslim clients?” or I am trying to help and explain to them that the way I work is to say if I have a Muslim or Hindu or another religion, we have a religious book, and this is what it says. And I’m sure there are some things similar to this in your book. Can we see if we can find it? And there is something like if we’re dealing with marriage or relationship issues or whatever. People who are Christians who are not Christians

Carrie: That’s awesome.

Ingrid: In a very wide range of people. 

Carrie: Towards the end of every podcast. I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Ingrid: Kind of alluded to this, but in 2018, my husband and I both felt that God was indicating to us to leave South Africa and return to the UK. The unfortunate part about it was that we would have nothing because of, you know, exchange rates, etcetera. Various factors meant that we would arrive here was nothing. We have about, so we’ve lived on the boat. It wasn’t supposed to be for three or four years, but that has been that, and it’s been very hard. The summers are beautiful, of course. And that’s what I was alluding to earlier with, you know, at being outside, seeing the nature it’s beautiful. But winters are tough, and we applied for housing, and it’s taken a very long time; we were approved in June, and it’s been hanging on hanging on. And today we got the large vacation, the house we love is ready, we can move it next week. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really beautiful. It’s hard to wait on those types of things, but praise God.

Ingrid: It’s very hard, it’s very hard to wait, and that’s been what I was, you know, about Joe, and I’ve been very ill on the boat at times, just saying to the Lord, “Okay, I know you have this in hand, I know you have it in half.” It takes you a bit longer than order a life.

Carrie: Yes.

Ingrid: I know we are both very excited about that. 

Carrie: It’s really being able to trust that he’s going to take care of things.

Ingrid: And, of course, deal. But you know, we’ve had to do quite a lot of, you know, applying and sorting and working and, so we do our bit.

Carrie: Sure.

Ingrid: But God is there, and he’s in control. And he knows exactly, and we couldn’t have chosen if I’d had to draw a little cottage that I would love to be in. I couldn’t have done anything more beautiful than what we’ve actually got.

Carrie: I’m so excited for you to be able to move into your place. And thank you so much for having this conversation about ACT with us. We’ll put links to your website and the book in case people want to learn more.

Ingrid: Great. Thanks, Carrie. Nice talking to you. And I hope the rest of your pregnancy goes well or you don’t have a bad backache. 

Carrie: Thank you. Thank you. 

59. Anxiety, Goals, and New Year’s Resolutions with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 59. Anxiety, Goals, and New Year’s Resolutions with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

In this episode, Carrie dives into the challenges of goal-setting, especially for those dealing with anxiety or OCD, and offers practical tips to make the process less overwhelming.

Episode Highlights:

  • Why traditional resolutions often fall short and how to set meaningful, actionable goals instead.
  • How anxiety or OCD can complicate goal-setting and strategies to overcome those hurdles.
  • The importance of breaking big goals into smaller, achievable steps.
  • Carrie’s personal experience with failure and how it paved the way for this podcast.

Verses and Scriptures discussed: Philippians 2:12-13, Isaiah 1:17, Ephesians 2:19

Episode Summary:

This episode is all about anxiety, goals, failure, and New Year’s resolutions. If you’re starting to think about goals for next year—or even if you’re someone who avoids resolutions altogether—this episode is for you.

Personally, I’m not a fan of traditional resolutions. They feel more like wishes without a plan. Instead, I believe in setting clear, actionable goals that you can track and actually work towards. I’ll share some of my past goals, whether I met them, and what I’m focusing on for the upcoming year—especially for this podcast.

Speaking of updates, starting January, the podcast will move to an every-other-week schedule. So if you’re a regular listener (like my mom, who never misses an episode), don’t worry, there will still be plenty of content to catch up on.

We’ll also dive into why anxiety or OCD can make goal-setting tricky. Maybe you feel overwhelmed by everything you want to achieve, or you’re not sure what you really want. Sometimes, it’s about breaking big goals into smaller, manageable steps. Other times, it’s about overcoming limiting beliefs—like thinking you’re not worthy or fearing failure and success.

I’ve been there. I’ve had goals that failed, like an online course I poured time and money into that didn’t sell a single copy. But that experience taught me so much, and it eventually led to this podcast. Failure isn’t the end—it’s part of the process.

If you’ve struggled with goals in the past, let’s figure out why and make this year different.

Transcript

Today we’re having a solo episode on anxiety, goals, failure, and New Year’s resolution. Maybe you’re starting to think about your new year’s resolutions or goals for next year. Maybe you’re not,  some people just say, “ I don’t set new year’s resolutions. That’s not for me.”

 At the beginning of every year, you will set New Year’s resolutions and often resolutions fail for a variety of reasons. I don’t set new year’s resolutions per se, because they remind me more of making a wish before you blow out your birthday candles. It’s kind of like, “ Yeah, this would be a nice thought or guest year, but there’s really no plan to complete it.

I really believe in setting goals. Goals are specific. They have a plan to help you get there. And you’re going to know if you achieve them or not. There’s some type of measurability to them. And later in the episode, I’m going to look through some previous schools that I’ve said and talk with you about whether or not I achieved them.

And some goals that I have for the upcoming year, especially specifically for this podcast. Just a reminder, in case you missed my last episode with Steve, where we talked about having a baby next year and how that’s going to impact the podcast. We are going to an every other week show starting in January.

So we will have a show next week for the first week of January. And then. Beyond an every other week schedule after that, just in case you are like my mother and diligently tune in every week. I hope it’s not just my mother that does that. Maybe there’s some people out there that really like the show and try to tune in every week.

If you don’t and you’re catching up on old episodes, there’ll be plenty of time to do that as well. I want to talk with you about problems you may run into in terms of setting goals. If you have anxiety or OCD. There are some reasons that people who experience anxiety may not set goals. You may feel overwhelmed.

Maybe you feel like you have so much that you want to do that you want to accomplish and you feel overwhelmed at the idea of actually trying to do it all. It doesn’t really matter what that goal is. Whether it’s to get in better physical shape, get out of debt,eat healthier this year, you can become easily overwhelmed by any of these goals.

They seem really big and really insurmountable. So you may get to a place where you say, well, I’m just not going to try, because I don’t know how to break that down into smaller steps. I have no idea how to get to where I want to be. And so forget it. Just give it up. You may not know what you need or want. I know that sounds strange.

So this is something I run into a lot. When people come into counseling, they’ll say things like, I want to feel better. I want to have less anxiety. And in the beginning, that sounds like a good goal. Feeling better, having less anxiety, but we really have to dig in and ask some more questions in order to help make those, a goal. For someone saying, “ I want to feel better.”

What does feeling better look like? What kind of things would you be doing if you were feeling better? Well, “ I would be exercising on a regular basis. I would be spending more time socially with friends.” Those are some things that you can actually get down and measure and create specific objectives to meet those goals.

You may not feel worthy of achieving certain things. Some people learned maybe in their family of origin, not to want things, because if they wanted something, they knew that nobody was going to help them get that.  This can lead to people leaning on self-reliance or it can lead them to saying things like, “ Well, you know, I just, I don’t know.I just don’t really want anything.” Because they don’t want to be disappointed. 

As Christians, we don’t have to deny our wants. Sometimes people think that somehow more Godly, but we do have to submit them over to God to see if that’s something that He has for our lives. And sometimes it’s a matter of timing.

We may want something from God or for Him to help us achieve a certain outcome, but we may not really be ready to receive that. I can definitely think of plenty of times in my life where I wanted something, but really wasn’t ready for that responsibility. I think about that in the professional realm, in terms of starting a private practice, there was definitely a lot of times

Before starting my private practice that I wanted to do that and wasn’t able to, but now I can look back and say, “ Everything happened at the right time, the way it was supposed to, because if I had tried to start something earlier, I wouldn’t necessarily have had the confidence to follow through and persevere in the difficult times.”

I can also say that with having a child, a lot of people have children in their twenties and there’s nothing wrong with that. For me ,personally, I don’t think that I was ready to be a mom in my twenties. I guess if it happened back then, I would’ve had to figure it out and rise to the occasion and it probably would have made me a better person, but having a baby now that I’m older, it’s caused me to process things very differently.

And I think in general, I’m a much less selfish person than I was in my twenties. I feel like I will have more to give to this baby than I would have back then. So God’s timing in that sense for me is perfect. When we submit our desires over to God and our wants, we can pray and say, 

“ Okay, God, this is what I’m desiring.Is this in your will for me?”  or “ God helped me desire the things that you desire.” And then you’ll start desiring things of the kingdom, rather than just things that you want for your own purposes or your own gain. Sometimes people don’t set goals because they actually fear success. 

I know that sounds pretty strange to say out loud, but sometimes people will wonder what would happen. Like, “ If I got that dream job? Will my family look down on me then?” ,  “Would people judge me?” , “ What are people gonna think of me if I do this or that ?”  All of those things can really get in our way.  And we can be afraid of all kinds of things related to success. We can be afraid of achieving more. We can be afraid of making more money, but most typically fear of success comes down to our relationships.

We’re afraid that somehow if we’re more successful, that’s going to negatively impact our relationships. So that’s something that you also can take to God and pray about. And a lot of times, fear of success may come from family of origin issues and it’s a good process to work through some of those things.

I had to work through some thought processes about money, really, for counseling several years ago. And it was a hard process, but a really good process for me to understand that I could help people and also make money because those two things seem to really be an opposition to each other. That was part of my overcoming some fear of success for myself. 

 On the opposite end of the spectrum, you may not be setting goals this year because you fear failure. You may be saying, “ Well, I’ve been trying to lose weight for the past three years. And I haven’t done it. So why am I even going to put that out there as a New Year’s resolution or as a goal this year?” It’s important for us to understand why our goals failed in the past.

Prior to starting this podcast, I had created an online course for anxiety management and I spent about an entire year creating it, marketing it. I had Facebook ads and I had decided at some point, then I was going to shift gears and make it about panic attacks and to be more specific, switched a few things around and marketed more of that.

I will tell you that I spent a lot of time, energy and money on something that was an epic failure. I did not sell a single course, and most people would call that a major waste of time and money. It took me a long time, probably over a year to try something new and even longer to understand that I had to take this as a learning experience.

I needed to go back and dissect, understand why the course failed and figure out how to not make those errors again the next time I did something. Had I not taken that evaluation time, I would not have started the podcast ultimately. Setting goals or reevaluating what we did or didn’t accomplish last year is an important part of our process.

But we can’t just say, “Well, I failed. So I’m not going to be able to do it again.” We have to understand what failed in terms of my course, I did not have a public platform or a persona or an ability for people to know, like, and trust me to get to that point where they felt like I was the person that could help them manage their anxiety.

In the process of this failure, recovering from the failure, I started to just digest more podcasts, to understand marketing your ideal audience and how it works, how people connect with you via social media in different places. And trust me, I am no expert on any of this stuff because I’m continually also asking myself how we can grow the podcast. But there’s a lot that I’ve learned over the last few years since I had my epic failure of trying to sell that course.

So if you haven’t lost weight in the last few years and you’ve really wanted to, or you haven’t been able to stick to your budget in the last few years, and you’ve really wanted to, first of all, we’re going to have a couple episodes coming up on each of those things on anxiety surrounding finances, and really just how to get started in a fitness journey if that’s one of your new year’s resolution.

So I’m excited about those upcoming shows, but also just take some time to evaluate for yourself, “ Why did these goals fail? Was it because you didn’t have the support that you needed?” “Was it because there’s lies, maybe your limiting beliefs that you’re believing surrounding these issues? I mean, some people may believe, well, there’s just, “ Everyone in my family  is heavy and  is always going to be fat. So why bother trying to lose weight?”

 You may want to set a different goal for yourself. Maybe you want to set, instead of just focusing so much on weight loss, maybe you want to just say, “This year, I’m going to get in better shape and decide what better shape looks like. I’m going to be able to walk this far without getting wounded” or “ I’m going to be able to do this many sit-ups or this many push-ups by the next three months, six months

Sometimes those goals feel a bit more achievable than weight loss. And then we start to feel a little bit better about ourselves. One of the reasons I wanted to do a couple of shows around fitness and money is because people look at these two areas and they think, well, “ If I just create this plan, I should be able to execute it and go do it.”

However, a lot of times we have these emotional barriers. They get in the way of being able to do some of these things that we want to do. And that’s why that self-evaluation process is so important. And if you have a hard time self-evaluating, you may want to sit down with another person, a friend, somebody from the church, or it could even be a counselor.

You know, I have had people come in for emotional barriers to weight loss, and that’s some really good work that can be done in those areas. Going along with the fear of failures ,  sometimes we’re too hard on ourselves. We don’t achieve something and we can be our own worst critic. And there’s a lot of value in our society that we place on achievement, at least in American society that may be different in other parts of the world.

There’s this feeling that ,  like our worth is based on what we achieve or what we accumulate. Sometimes life just happens. You know what I mean? We’re not in control of all factors. There are things that we may not be able to achieve or goals we might not be able to complete because of situations outside of our control.  It is interesting because I was having a conversation with my friend, Erica.

And I said, “ You know, this year I’ve probably been the least productive that I’ve been in the last several years. It’s because I got pregnant and there’s all these different challenges that have come with pregnancy of being able to sleep at night and dealing with restless leg syndrome. And the first trimester,  I had morning sickness, which news flash has really like all day nausea.

It’s awful. And I’ve had to sleep a lot to get your extra rest. My perspective on it was like, well, I’ve been the least productive, her perspective on it was, well, Carrie actually you’ve been the most productive because this is a goal that you’ve wanted for yourself and your family. It’s just, the productivity looks very different, trying to take care of yourself and allow God to grow a tiny human in your body.

I’ve also been married for about a year and obviously time allocation is a lot different when you’re married than when you’re single. I remember being single and when I was creating that course specifically, I’d just stay at the office really late. Sometimes I do some extra work or I’d come home and I do more work.

And now, evenings are really important for me to have that time with Steve. And even if it’s just sit down and watch a little TV together. Eating dinner together and just talking about our day and how things are going. You may have had life changes, whether it’s getting married, having a baby moving across town.

I mean, there’s so many different things , getting sick. Maybe you got diagnosed with an illness this year, and you’re just not able to do as much as you were able to do before. And that’s okay. I would say really just be gentle on yourself. One thing I’ve had to realize is like I’ve had to lower the expectations for myself and know that just in this season, it’s okay to do that.

It’s okay to lower your expectations sometimes and go back to what is the simplest form of self care that I need to focus on right now, whether that’s getting enough sleep, eating well, whatever it is. I want us to talk about, “ Why are we even talking about goal setting on this podcast? Why is that important?”

It is important for us to set goals because if we don’t set goals or make efforts to change in this new year, we are going to end up in the same place that we ended up last year and stuck in the same patterns that we ended up in. And as Christians, we are partners with God in our own sanctification process.

What does that mean? Well sanctification, if you don’t know, it’s just basically a big word that means , becoming more like Christ and that’s after we’re saved, that’s our work as Christians, we don’t work to get saved. You know, salvation is by grace. But after we get saved, it is our job really, to partner with God in working out our salvation.

That’s what Philippians 2:12-13 tells us is, “To work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose.” So we can’t do it all on our own. We have to work with God and rely on him. There’s another scripture, Ephesians 2:10 that says, “ Where we are, God’s handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. “ We have been prepared by God to do good things. And we need to sometimes examine and ask him and explore what are those good things God wants us to be doing in this year? And we can’t expect to grow as Christians, spouses, parents, employees, if we don’t take the effort to work on it, and you have the opportunity to create goals for different areas of your life.

So you may decide that you want to create some goals in the spiritual or ministry area. One of our goals one day is for Steve and I to go on a mission trip together that really has been thwarted by two things, one COVID and travel restrictions,and two me, getting pregnant as far as me being able to travel and so forth.

 Hopefully next year, at least maybe Steve will be able to go. That’s what we’re hopeful for, that things will have calmed down enough with COVID for him to be able to go on a mission trip. And then maybe in the future years, we’ll be able to go together to do that. We’ve also talked about becoming more involved in a local organization that’s near and dear to both of our hearts, which is called Isaiah 1:17 house.

And it’s not just in Tennessee, it’s in several states. I think mostly in the Southeast, but it is quickly expanding. If you want to look up Isaiah 1:17 house, they really provide food and temporary housing to kids that are coming into DCS custody, who just need a place to stay, or they need a meal until they can find them at the proper foster home for them to be in.

They are currently building the Isaiah one 17 house in our community, which we’re excited about, and it should be done early next year. So depending on how things fall with the orientation process or me having the baby, I may have to wait a little bit to get more involved, but that’s something is, I guess you could say is one of our ministry goals as a couple together.

You can create relationship goals that may look like having a date night. You know, in a prescribed like, time period, maybe we want to go on a date once a week or twice a month, just to kind of, depending on what your life circumstances are. Maybe you want to decide that you’d like to pray with your spouse together.

That’s something Steve and I have been doing more of this year and I definitely would like to continue that it’s just brought us closer to God and really closer to each other. You can set goals financially, maybe something that you’re saving for. Maybe you’d like to save for a house. Maybe you’d like to save for a family.

Maybe you’d like to pay off certain bills that you have, whether it’s a car or some credit card debt. That’s just kind of been out there lingering, I think at the beginning of this year, Steve and I had talked about paying off some bills that we had, and we definitely did a lot of home improvement type stuff.

So those were certainly in our goals, that house just been here for 10 years and it’s older than that. It just definitely needed some work and some investment this year. So we were able to do that actually are going to be able to pay off some bills that we weren’t necessarily expecting to pay off this year, like my car.

So very thankful and grateful for that new consent career goals for yourself. Maybe you’d like to move up into your company, maybe like to get some kind of new training or certificate program. Maybe you would like to go back to school. Really think through if there’s any career goals that you’d like to make. This year, I was able to be a part of a 16- week training program, combining EMDR and ego state therapy.

That was something that really boosted my career and that I’ve really enjoyed getting to know more about. I also took training on combining EMDR and OCD. That was super helpful. Next year I’d like to get trained in something in the EMDR community called, “ The flash and technique.”  I’m not as focused on career training next year due to having the baby, but I will have to get some CEU credits.

I shared this in Episode 50 with Steve. But one goal that I have for next year is financial and a career goal that really is for the podcast to be able to break even this past year. I’ve invested a lot of time and money from my counseling practice into building the podcast, paying for editing, paying for social media help with the website.

And we now have a Patreon set up for the podcast where you can become a monthly subscriber or patron of the show. You can receive some teachings and help on anxiety, real life activities that you can practice, go in there and practice them over and over again, until you get better at them to help with your thought life or just calming your physical body informational sessions in there on mindfulness and different things.

I’m very excited about this and also want it to be valuable for people who are looking for more self-help materials. Maybe you’ve been listening to the podcast for a little while and have gotten a lot out of it. Maybe you just entrusted in giving five to $10 a month, or maybe like to make a one-time gift. We have the ability through,  Buy Me a Coffee to make one-time gifts.

And if you’re interested in being a monthly subscriber, you can go to Patreon. And I’ll include links in the show notes for both of those. One of my goals for this year really that did not work out and fail was that I wanted to be able to sell a digital product. And I had created an ebook on finding a therapist, which I think I’m going to just go ahead and include that for the Patreon members.

It is for sale on the website. I really haven’t had any sales or traction from that. However, I have gotten some clients who have listened to the podcast and decided that they wanted to see me for therapy. So that’s been a good blessing, but I haven’t sold any digital eBooks or anything like that. I had originally thought about creating some downloads or creating a course.

And have decided really to move towards this subscription model, because I think it makes most sense for the podcast itself. If you disagree and want me to sell individual audio downloads on my website, definitely contact me through hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I’m very interested in seeing what self-help stuff people are looking for and how I can help you get that.

So much of entrepreneurship and podcasting is a lot of trial and error type work. Maybe that helps you or encourages you in your individual goals. The first thing that you try may not work out and that’s okay. You know, it’s okay to go back to the drawing board and say, “ Do I need to persevere through this? Work harder on it?”

Because sometimes we need to do that. Sometimes we actually need to stick with something and persevere, but there are other times where we have to evaluate and say, “ Okay, maybe that wasn’t the direction I needed to go in. Let me take a step back and figure it out. How can I go in a different direction?”

That’s going to be more helpful for myself this next year, in terms of goals for me is to really figure out what my work-life balance is related to being a mom and figuring out what the best schedule for myself and my infant is going to be trying to figure out childcare plans. It’s going to be a challenge for sure, but something that I feel ready to take on.

And I’m excited about just this new chapter and new season of life. I hope that this episode has really encouraged you to examine yourself, evaluate last year and really look forward to this new year and say, “ Okay, how can I make some helpful and meaningful goals for myself? How can I work through these fears that are getting in the way and the anxiety that’s getting in the way of me being the best self that I can be.” 

 And as Christians when we are the best self that we can be, that benefits the kingdom of God and also benefits the other people that we’re in relationship with in our lives for our story of hope, because I like to include one in every podcast. 

I wanted to give you guys a little bit of an update on Steve’s eye situation and the pain that he was experiencing. So we talked about that episode in Episode 50, about how there just wasn’t clarity surrounding what was causing this eye pain. And one of the things that was thrown out was you can go to physical therapy and try to work on this cranial nerve that runs from your neck and it runs behind the eyes as well.

Though, we had no idea that you could go to physical therapy for your eyes. However, he’s been going to benchmark physical therapy in Smyrna, and we are just so thankful for Kim over there who has been helping him. I am recording this in November and as of today, you know, he’s been in physical therapy for about a month and they’re expecting him to have to be in physical therapy for maybe another month and should be finishing up  by the end of November.

So certainly by the time this episode comes out, he has been making just amazing, great strides in physical therapy. It’s been helping reduce his eye pain that he was experiencing. Which feels like such a relief for us in just an absolute miracle answer to prayer from God. We are so very thankful. The journey has been really rough as we talked about in episode 50, but he seems to be getting better in terms of the eye pain.

There’s still a lot that we don’t know about the vision loss, but we place more peace about that because we always believed that the eye pain was somehow involved or causing his vision loss. And that doesn’t quite seem to be the case in his particular situation from just what we know right now. So this situation has given us a lot of hope that God does hear us, and He does answer prayers and He will leave us and guide us in getting the healing that we need.

And I believe that for you to whoever’s listening, if you are in need of healing physically or emotionally, spiritually, whatever you need, God is able to provide that for you. And He loves you so much. It may be a journey to receive that healing, but He’s going to be with you every single step of the way.

And please get some Christian communities around you as well. Who can love you and support you on that journey. I hope that we’re a part of that community for you. If you listen to our show regularly, I hope that you all had an amazing Christmas and blessings as we go into the new year. You can always contact us online anytime at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.Let us know what you’d like to see more of or what you’d like to see less of in terms of the show.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

40. Life Lessons From 40 episodes of Podcasting

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 40. Life Lessons From 40 episodes of Podcasting

We are on our 40th episode today! I’m flying solo to share my podcasting journey and life lessons from the previous episodes.

Episode Highlights:

  • It’s impossible to have figured out everything before you start something.
  • Find your why on those days that are more difficult and you will feel like you can finish what you have started.
  • It’s the mess and the difficulty that drives us to dependence and reminds us that we can’t control everything.
  • I don’t need to worry about what’s going on with everyone else.
    I need to be worried about staying on the path that God has called me to.

All these valuable life lessons and more that you can apply in your life while you’re finding and fulfilling God’s plan in your life. 

Episode Summary:

Welcome back to Christian faith and OCD! It’s been a little while since I’ve done a solo episode, and today, I wanted to take some time to share my personal podcasting journey—the ups, the downs, and the life lessons that have come with it.

One of the biggest challenges I faced was overcoming “pod fade”—that phenomenon where new podcasters start strong but fizzle out before hitting ten episodes. What I’ve learned is that we don’t have to have everything figured out before we start.

What kept me going through the tough days was remembering my “why.” I felt called to create this podcast because so many people in the church struggle with mental health issues and are met with misinformation—messages like, “You just need to pray more,” or, “You must not have enough faith.” That kind of thinking isn’t biblical at all! The Bible is filled with people who experienced fear, doubt, and depression.

Another hard but necessary lesson I learned was the importance of asking for help. I used to believe I had to do everything myself, but podcasting quickly showed me that wasn’t realistic. Just like many people hesitate to seek therapy, thinking they should be able to “figure it out” on their own, I hesitated to hire help. But bringing on an editor and a podcast assistant has been such a relief and has actually helped me heal from the belief that I can’t get the support I need.

I couldn’t do this without the incredible support of my husband, Steve, and the encouragement of my family and friends. We all need people in our lives who remind us of our purpose and help us keep going. If you’re struggling, know that help is out there—it may take time to find, but you don’t have to do this alone.

I hope my journey encourages you to reflect on your own “why” and find the strength to keep moving forward, even when things get tough. Thanks for being here with me on this journey!

Transcript

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 40. Now, if you’ve been following along with the podcast, it’s been a little while since I’ve had a solo episode. So here I am. I wanted to talk with you about my podcasting journey, but more so in the sense of the life lessons that I’ve learned, I think these life lessons are going to be very valuable for you to hear and figure out how does that apply to your own life and maybe some of the things that you’re facing today.

So bit of encouragement, because it’s been a big hurdle over the last year or to not only start this podcast but to keep it going. There’s a term in the podcasting community called pod fade. Essentially pod fade is when people get super excited about their podcasts, they have this great idea. They get rolling and then they’re done before they even have 10 episodes released because the work that’s involved becomes overwhelming.

Whenever you’re looking at starting something new, I think there’s two different pits that people fall into like ditches on the side of the road. So one ditch on the side of the road is the people who never get started with anything because they feel like I have no idea how to do that. I don’t know. I don’t know how I’m even… They feel like they have to have everything figured out before they start something. And so if that’s you, I would say that’s impossible. So if you’re looking to start something new in your life, there’s no possible way you’re going to know everything that you’re going to run into when you face that situation or that task.

On the completely, other side of the road, there’s this other ditch that people fall into another extreme, which is more likely what I’m to fall into, which is, oh, I can do that like that it shouldn’t be too hard. I see other people doing that. Why not me? This sounds really good in the beginning. Right?

However, sometimes when you start out with that mindset, you don’t have the problem with starting the new thing. You have a problem with continuing and keeping going on the new thing. When I got into podcasting, I was like, oh, you know, you get a microphone and you turn it on. You start talking. There’s a there’s books on this. I can go read a book. I knew someone who had a podcast. So I was just like kind of approaching it pretty casually like. This shouldn’t be too difficult. I look back on that now this hilarious guys is absolutely hilarious. There’s a lot more that goes into a podcast other than turning on a microphone, talking and reading a book.

There were so many aspects that I didn’t know what I didn’t know. The thing that kept me going on the days that were more difficult or the days that I felt like I couldn’t do it anymore, or the days that I felt like I couldn’t finish was understanding why I started in the first place. Going back to finding your why. We do all kinds of things in our lives and a lot of times we don’t even step back and take a moment to reflect why am I even doing this? 

One of the beauties of the COVID-19 pandemic was that more people took that time to take this step back and to say, what have I filled my life with? And is that a valuable investment of my time, of my energy, of my money?

Life is short. We only have so many hours and we don’t know how many hours or how many days we have in this life. We want to make sure that we’re filling them with things that we believe God has called us to as Christian. That God has called us to.  In a personal sense of calling. There’s a general calling.

There’s a specific calling for me for a long time. I’ve believed that my calling was to the church. I may have talked about this on one of the beginning episodes, but I really felt like I was going to become a therapist in a church somewhere. I actually have a degree from a seminary, if you can believe that or not, it’s a counseling degree, but it’s from a seminary.

So here I was thinking that that was how my calling was going to look and that’s never happened. I’ve never, actually, I’m not in a paid sense of the word I have. I’m sure counseled some people in church in more of a lay type fashion. However, I’ve felt this burden for a long time, for people with mental health issues who are struggling in the chruch.

And this concept of them being given false information was so troubling to me.  Hearing over and over and over, somebody told me I wasn’t praying enough. Someone told me I wasn’t reading the Bible. I didn’t have faith. I didn’t trust God somehow because they were struggling. They were somehow a less than Christian.

Not only is that concept completely non-biblical because you don’t have to turn the Bible very far to find people who struggled with doubt, with fear, with depression. Elijah by the Brook wanted to die. Job cursed the day of his birth. I mean, There are so many Psalms where David cries out and is wondering where God is in the mess of his circumstances.

If we think we have to have it all together as Christians, we’re completely missing the whole point. The whole point is that in our mess, God enters in and we have communion and a relationship with him. And it’s the mess and the difficulty that drives us to dependence and reminds us that we can’t control everything.

And we need him every single day. I knew people in the church needed messages of encouragement and hope, people who are struggling with anxiety, OCD, or any other mental health concerns for that matter. I also knew there was a void of people speaking into these types of experiences. How did I know there was a void?

Well, because I looked. I looked for bloggers. I looked for people who had written books. I looked for people who are speaking about mental health struggles not just from a personal experience, although I think some of those are helpful, but also from a place of professionalism to say that professional counseling works. We have tools that can help people that are not in opposition to our faith.

I see so many Christians who are terrified of professional counseling because they think they’re going to be steered away to something non-biblical. All that to say, that was my why. And it was so good, even for me as I’m recording right now, just to repeat that out loud and to remember that. To remember the stories that I’ve heard from people who have told me about the messages they’ve heard in the church, I’m so glad that this podcast is part of changing some of those messages. 

When you know why you’re doing what you’re doing, that changes everything. So I want to ask you today, if you’re married, why are you married? It doesn’t matter if you’ve been married for two years or 20 years. Ask yourself that question. Why are you married? Why are you getting up and going to work today?

There can be many different answers to this question. And believe me, I have answered this question so many different ways in my life. I remember just crying to someone shortly after I graduated because I was in this job that wasn’t a good fit for me at all. Just crying and them telling me, you know, you’re getting good experience right now. You’re getting experience that is going to help you get licensed. So at that point in my life, I was going to work to pay bills and get a counseling license so that I could hopefully do something differently.

I won’t get into that tangent, but one of these days I may do a podcast on life lessons. 

I learned from my many jobs.

I’ve probably had about 30 jobs in my life. That’s not an exaggeration, I’ve done many different things. Some of them were very short-term obviously, but there have been days where I have gone to work because I needed to pay. And there have been days where I’ve gone to work because I wanted to make a difference and everywhere in between.

You can apply the why question to why are you parenting your kids a certain way. Why are you involved in that ministry at church? During the pandemic, I really evaluated my why I had spent much time involved in counselor training and education. While I’m so thankful for that time and don’t have any regrets. I realized that God was directing me back around to ministry, to the church for people who have mental health struggles and getting involved in some type of creation of self-help materials.

Your why can direct you to get started and your Y can keep you going on the hardest of days. 

Now we’re going to shift gears a little bit and talk about struggles with comparison. Comparison is huge in the podcasting community at times, not with everyone, but there are these Facebook groups out there where people will get really obsessed with their download numbers. They will ask questions like how long did it take you to get 1000 downloads? I made the decision early on not to become obsessed with my download numbers. One of the reasons for that was because I was in some ways surprised when anyone listened to this. I had a blog prior to the podcasts and I’m pretty sure that very few people ever went on there and read anything that I had written. If you are on social media at all, it doesn’t even have to be social media, It could be the break room at work. It could be after church on a Sunday morning. It’s just so easy to compare yourself to other people. 

One thing that I try to tell myself that I hope might help you as well is I have to say I’m on my own journey. This is a journey that God has called me to, and I’m accountable to him. I’m accountable to my husband, to myself. I’m accountable to my listeners and my clients that I see every week for counseling. I’m not accountable to some kind of invisible standard or to Susie Q the most amazing podcast or out there. I don’t need to worry about what’s going on with everyone else. I need to be worried about staying on the path that God has called me to. Don’t get me wrong. There have been plenty of times on this journey, whether it’s been through my business journey or whether it’s been through my podcasting journey, there’s plenty of times that I’ve become jealous of other people or of what they’re doing, their success.

Recently, I made a decision to change the way that I approached that jealousy. When it would come up initially, I would just be so disgusted by it like, oh gosh, I’m feeling jealous. And I don’t like being a jealous person and it just feels slimy and gross. There would be like this self-deprecation I guess that came after the conviction and the experience of the jealousy.

Then one day, I thought this is not working as a helpful way to approach this because I’m still getting jealous of people. I decided to do something that we call “act opposite of how you feel” in the psychology and counseling world. And I decided that I was going to pray for that person that I was jealous that.

Not only was I going to pray for that person, but I was going to ask God to bless them more than he’s already blessed them. That has shifted my perspective so much and cut down on a lot of the green-eyed. How does that saying go the green monster of envy, something like that a big life lesson I learned on the podcasting journey was that I can’t do it all myself and I need help. This was so hard to admit and sit with because I am a very independent person. I’m the type of person that says I have to do this in order to make sure that it gets done right. I can’t really let go and trust other people. And if I want to get something done, I have to be driven and find a way to make it happen.

And this concept of recognizing when you can’t do something, yourself is applicable to so many different areas. It’s applicable to mental health for people that are looking at getting counseling or getting on medication. It’s applicable for working mothers, maybe who are trying to keep up with every household responsibilities and are taking on more than they can handle. It may be time for you to start using grocery pickup, hiring a teenager to help with your laundry. Anything that you can reasonably and feasibly get off your plate is going to help you in the long run. It didn’t take me very long to figure it out. That I was not going to be editing these podcast episodes.

Yes, you can watch some YouTube videos on it, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be very good at it. It’s interesting to me how many people will be okay with paying for someone to do their taxes, for example, or fix their computer, maybe mow their lawn, but when it comes to mental health help, people think “I should be able to figure this out myself.”

I know I’ve done that in so many areas of my life and what I’ve had to learn, especially over the last several years of having a business even is that you can’t do all the things. And when you admit that and you sit with it, you can go to the next step, which is finding help.

I struggled for such a long time with a negative belief that I can’t get the help that I need. That one, I’m not even sure where it started or how long it had been lingering around in my mind, but I was convinced that that was the truth. Through this journey of finding an editor. as well as finding a podcast assistant to help me with things like social media, getting in touch with perspective guests, scheduling interviews has been so healing for me because it’s healed this negative belief that I can’t get the help that I need.

Maybe that’s something that you struggle with. And I just want you to know there is help out there for you. You can’t always find it on the first try. Sometimes you have to do a little bit more searching and a little bit more work to get yourself the help that you need, but it is out there. If you are willing to look for it and know also that I would not be able to continue this podcast without support from key people in my life. As you all know, my husband, Steve has been incredibly supportive of my podcasting journey. He’s the one behind the scenes, just speaking life to me, reminding me of my why, reminding me of my calling speaking just truth to me when I need to hear it when days get hard or long, or I just want to throw in the towel.

He’s right there. Also have this incredible family support and, and friends, we need other people in our lives. It’s a huge lie of the enemy that we can do this on our own and that we can’t get close to other people. We can’t trust other people. I know that you’ve been burned and I’ve been burned in my life too.

I’ve had people who were close to me, hurt me very deeply. However, I also know that there’s power in community. There’s power in support of other people being able to say, Hey, I’m here with you and I love you. And I just need you to know that. Just keep going, just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

That prayer support is so helpful as well. Steve and I were able to get involved in a small group recently, and that has been such a blessing to us, to be with other believers, to have people speaking truth and praying for us and pouring into our lives. As we seek also to pour into their lives. If you don’t have that type of support network, really evaluate and look and see what can you do to start creating that?

Even if it’s just a small way that you can add interaction, even with other people, we can’t say we want other people in our lives and then go to work, go home crash, get up in the morning, hit, repeat, and do it all over again. We have to be intentional about our relationships. We have to be intentional about reaching out to other people about saying, Hey, I want to spend time with you.

Let’s get coffee, come over to the house. You know, let’s play a game together. Let’s go for a walk in the woods, whatever it is that is going to help you get to know somebody a little bit better and connect with them. See how you can do that today. We need other people, not just surrounding us, but people that are doing what we’re doing.

Sometimes we have good support, but like nobody gets it. If that makes sense. And being a therapist can be isolating at times if you’re in private practice. Being a podcaster can be isolating at times. If you’re just sitting in a closet with a microphone, like I am right now.

 I’m so thankful that I’m going to be going to a podcasting conference for the first time this year, and continue to make connections with other podcasters, whenever I’m able to do that. Just can kind of breathe, a sigh of relief because it’s like, oh, somebody who really gets it, who knows like what the struggle that I’m going through is like. I hope that you’re able to find that in the sense of your community. Finding some people who understand what it’s like to struggle with anxiety, finding some people who understand what it’s like to have obsessions on.

Repeat in your head. I know that sometimes it’s hard to find support groups or other avenues like that. I don’t know. Maybe you need to look at starting one because if you’re sitting here and you need that. I guarantee you that there’s somebody else sitting by themselves thing, man, I really wish I had somebody to talk to about this who really got it, who really understood. I spoke about this on a previous episode, but the podcast has really given me the gift to know that I don’t have to be perfect to help people. I consider myself a recovering perfectionist. I want you to know that this podcast is far from perfect. Sometimes the audio has been less than stellar.

I’ve tripped over my words, repeated the same words over and over the website is not perfect. The social media is not perfect, pretty much. Nothing’s perfect about this podcast because it’s run by imperfect humans. And the beautiful thing about that is it doesn’t have to be because people are being helped.

People are being encouraged. Our downloads are growing every day. We have now over 5,500 downloads at this recording. It’s just incredible to me. I’ve, I’ve really been blown away by all of you listeners and the people that I’ve heard from that have said the podcast has been helpful. I appreciate you so much.

It leads me to believe that something we’re doing here is working and thank you for allowing me to be imperfect and still listening. Anyway, this is the last, the life lesson, but also one of the most important is that it’s okay to be vulnerable. Well, I knew it was okay to be vulnerable. When I started the podcast, I had this barrier of being a therapist.

I was concerned about sharing personal details, putting them out there for the whole world to hear. But most specifically, I was really concerned about my clients, hearing them to understand that you have to understand that when I was going to school. I was taught not to talk about yourself. It has to be about the client and listening to them, your story at that point, doesn’t really matter.

Unless somehow sharing it is going to benefit the client more than it’s going to benefit you. However, I was always taught to err, on the side of caution, in terms of sharing things about myself in therapy, different therapists have different views on this. And some end up talking about themselves, more in therapy maybe than I would, and that’s not necessarily right or wrong.

That’s more dependent on how the client feels about it. I. When I started the podcast, I had this big worry and fear that somehow my clients were going to look at me differently, treat me differently. Some become sidetracked in their own work, because they wanted to ask me about my own personal experiences and that big fear, like so many of our fears did not become a reality.

Actually, the clients who listened to the podcast may have said a sentence or two about how they appreciated me sharing my story or some aspect of my story that they didn’t know about me. And it didn’t derail our ability to work together. And it didn’t derail us on to them. Trying to ask me a bunch of extra questions and sessions about what I had shared.

I would have been very pleasantly surprised that this podcast has helped me overcome this barrier of being vulnerable as a therapist. When we share personal parts about ourselves, it’s an opportunity for us to be able to connect with other people. Who are going through difficult situations or who have experienced similar things.

There’s this sigh of relief. There’s this understanding like, ah, okay. They really get it. And I think that is so important in the therapeutic relationship often overlooked. I still don’t talk a whole lot about myself in my therapy sessions with clients. I still make it about them. The clients who have never heard this podcast, um, probably know very little about me other than I’m married.

And they see that I have cats because stitch likes to pop in every now and then to say hi to people when I’m on my online session. Having the podcast as an opportunity to talk through some of the struggles that I’ve dealt with in the past, as well as things that I’m still processing in my own life has been a gift of allowing God to take all the experiences, the pain, the hardships that have happened to me and turn them into something good.

I really feel like those sufferings are being used in a positive and healthy way versus just going through it, not talking about it at all and moving on so many times, we want to just forget where we’ve come through from, or we don’t want to talk about it because it stirs up these negative emotions that we have.

What I would say to you is everyone has a story. Your story may be very different from mine. And maybe there’s someone in your life that needs to hear it. Maybe there’s someone that needs that spark of encouragement before Steve and I got married, there was a lady in his church that came to me. Asked to meet with me.

And I thought, oh gosh, what is this about? I don’t, I don’t know. You know, when you’re a therapist, um, obviously sometimes people want things from you and it can get a little uncomfortable. I thought maybe she was like trying to get advice for me. And it was completely the opposite. Actually. She wanted to sit down with me and talk with me about her own marriage, some of the struggles that she went through with her husband, how she stayed, married, how she worked through some difficult things.

And she was able to give me a book that had been an encouragement to her. It was just this beautiful thing of how she used difficulties and struggles in her own life. To be able to say, I don’t want to see you go through what I’ve been through. Let me try to help you on the front end so that you don’t have to experience some of the pain and suffering.

That I’ve dealt with. And if you do get to that point in your marriage and you feel like there’s nobody I can talk to you, nobody will really understand what I’m going through. That she gave me her information. Like, please reach out to me. Honestly, that was of all the wedding gifts I got. That was one of the best ones.

Just the gift of someone else’s personal experience. And the time that she took to talk with me about it. So never underestimate your ability to encourage and love on someone else through the use of your own story that God has given you. Usually at the end of every episode, I like to do a story of hope.

So my story of hope today is about this whole thing that we’ve been talking about. It’s about the podcast. I want to share with you my hope for the future, for the podcast. You’ve heard the hope as a result of the things that I’ve learned through this process, initial journey of 40 episodes. And now I want to talk with you about the future.

I know I don’t talk about this enough, but hope for anxiety and OCD exists to reduce shame, increase. And develop healthier connections with God and others. I have a whole host of interviews lined up for people to talk with us about all kinds of different things, everywhere from personal stories of overcoming trauma, working through anxiety, processing that spiritually.

Working through the struggles of why did such and such happened to me in my life. I also have some professionals that are going to come on and talk about the connection between addiction and anxiety, how we can use our breath to tap into the calm down, uh, center of our nervous system. And it’s more than just take a deep.

We’re going to be talking about managing anger and sleep habits. They’re just, the possibilities are endless. And those are just the people that I have booked. I also have other ideas that we’re trying to get people on the podcast to discuss. Of course, you’re always a welcome to be a part of this process.

I had a college students reach out to me on Instagram, wanting to share her story, which is so awesome. If you know of other professionals who might want to be on, or if you have a topic suggestion for us, I’m definitely all ears as more and more of you are finding the podcast. I’m getting more inquiries through my, By the Well Counseling website of people seeking counseling.

Unfortunately, I’m not able to see anyone outside of the state of Tennessee due to my counseling license, being specific for Tennessee. We have hope as therapists that someday those laws may change due to the expansion of talent. There are still so many people in underserved areas in rural communities that don’t have access to adequate mental health treatment, especially for specific things like OCD.

While we are far from having a national counselor license, we are also closer than we’ve ever been. So we’re still holding out hope for that. When I do want to say to those who have reached out, maybe from other states to me, that I’m not able to see is that I am in the process of creating some self-help materials for people who struggle with anxiety and OCD.

Of course, you all will be the first to hear more about that once it’s complete. And once I have things set up and ready to go, I’m recording some audio relaxations as well as teachings that I think are going to be beneficial to many people. The best way to find out when those materials come out is to get on our email at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I know I have failed miserably at emailing you guys on a regular basis, but I will definitely let you know when these materials come out and also check our social media. If you follow those pages. My hope is that people who don’t have access to counseling services or need something to work on in between sessions.

Maybe that are going to counseling. We’ll have more Christian self-help materials available to them that they feel comfortable, that it’s aligned with their faith and belief system. It’s scary even to put this out on the podcast, right? Because now I really need to follow through with what I’ve said I’m going to do.

And that’s all for today. I’m so thankful for each and every one of you here, listening. I know that there’s a reason that I’m here and there’s a reason that you’re here right now.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Maingrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Personal Stories

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Personal Stories

No Longer Plagued by Fear and Depression: A Personal Story with Stormie Omartian

Stormie is a bestselling author who personally connects with readers by sharing experiences and lessons that beautifully illustrate how God changes lives when we learn to trust in Him.

Stormie’s struggle with anxiety and phobias
Her horrible experience of growing up with a mother who has mental health disorder
Overworking to cope with trauma and depression
Finding hope for the first time and surrendering to God
What does the process of forgiveness look like for Stormie
The power of praying through fear

From Ashamed to Advocate: A Personal Anxiety Story with Jeff Allen

“I deal with anxiety almost every day at some level. And sometimes it’s worse than, or sometimes it’s better than other times, but anything to help people understand that they’re not alone.”

Jeff Allen, a mental health advocate and host of Simple Mental Health Podcast shares his journey through anxiety, how he overcame shame and stigma around seeking help and taking medication.

  • How Jeff discovered he had an anxiety disorder.
  • Backlash he received from churchgoers for opening up about his mental health condition.
  • Spiritual doubt process that he went through 
  • Prayer, medication and therapy
  • His journey of spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction

 

A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

“OCD has been the gateway to God and grace for me.” Peyton Garland author of Not So By Myself shares her story of OCD and her journey of going to therapy.

 After seeing a therapist, her mother and grandmother followed after her and sought professional help for themselves. 

  • Peyton’s experience of contamination OCD 
  • What it was like to go to therapy for the first time
  • Getting help with brainspotting (type of therapy)
  • Growing up in a strict church culture and how her faith changed over the years as she grew to know God.
  • Growing up in home with a parent who has PTSD 
  • Ripple effect on her family after she decided to seek help
  • How Peyton’s husband works with her on compulsions
  • God breaks into lonely places. He works best in the mess. 

Panic Attacks, OCD, and God: A Personal Story with Mitzi VanCleve

Author Mitzi VanCleve shares her own personal story of experiencing anxiety, panic attacks, and OCD and ultimately, how God has used these things for good in her own life.

  • Obsessions Mitzi experienced even as a young child
  • Mitzi’s experience with scrupulosity OCD
  • How she made the decision to take mental health medication as a Christian 
  • Experiences of mental health stigma from Christians 
  • Learning about panic attacks from a magazine articl
  • Wrestling with God about having OCD

Carrie’s Story of Anxiety in Dating with Now Husband Steve

Carrie and Steve talk about anxiety during the dating process and Steve involvement in helping Carrie work through it. 

  • Carrie’s Anxiety about putting herself out there to date and how that brought her back to therapy 
  • Challenges of Christian dating after a divorce 
  • Accepting the anxiety and difficulty trusting as part of the process of getting closer
  • Advice to singles in the church

One Therapist’s Story of Discovering Her Scrupulosity OCD with Rachel Hammons

  • How Rachel discovered she had been struggling with scrupolisity OCD.
  • How to determine if this is a normal level of spiritual concern or could be OCD
  • What is Scrupulosity OCD?
  • Learning how to sit with discomfort and ambiguity  
  • Getting to know the character of God and filtering information through that lens

Different Types of Therapy

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Different Types of Therapy

Using Brainspotting for Anxiety and OCD with Brooke Randolph, LMHC

  • What is Brainspotting? How does it work? 
  • How was Brainspotting developed? Who discovered it?
  • How can Brainspotting help with anxiety and OCD?
  • What happens during and after a Brainspotting session
  • Can Brainspotting be used with all ages? 
  • Brainspotting training
  • Comparison between Branspotting and other forms of therapy.

Brooke Randolph, LMHC
Counseling At The Green House

Play Therapy for School Aged Children with Anxiety with Brittany Dyer, LPC-MHSP

  • How does anxiety present in school-aged children? 
  • How does childhood anxiety present differently from adult anxiety?
  • Behaviors that may indicate a child has anxiety
  • Anxious parents with anxious children.
  • Things parents can do to help their child with anxiety.
  • What is play therapy? How does it work?
  • How to introduce therapy to your kids
  • How does play therapy reduce anxiety in children and even in adults?
  • Signs that your child may need a therapist 


Brittany Dyer, LPC-MHSP

Reducing Anxiety with Secret Keeping Horses (Equine Assisted Therapy), Bailee Teter, LPC-MHSP (temp)

  • Bailee’s story about how she became an Equine Assisted Therapist without being a “horse person.” 
  • What is Equine Assisted Therapy?
  • Different models of Equine Assisted Therapy.
  • How does equine therapy help with anxiety and other mental issues?
  • Human-animal emotional connection. God says take care of the animals.
  • Horses read and respond to human emotions like anxiety.
  • Stories about how equine therapy helps people with anxiety

Unbridled Changes Website
Bailee Teter

Welcoming the Parts We Don’t Like (Internal Family System -IFS) with Lindsey Castleman, LMFT

  • What is IFS (Internal Family System) Therapy
  • How did Lindsey get into Christian counseling
  • How did she incorporate Christian faith principles into her practice
  • Looking at the core of self through attachment and faith-based lens
  • Some parts of self want attention come in different forms like anxiety and OCD
  • Bringing all parts of yourself connected as God is three in one

Lindsey Castleman, LMFT

The Power of EMDR Therapy for Anxiety with Sarah Slade, LPC-MHSP

  • Our path to receiving EMDR training
  • What is EMDR?
  • Different types of trauma (little t and big T)
  • Getting to the root of troubling body sensations and 
  • How EMDR can be helpful for people with anxiety 

Sarah’s Counseling Practice: Willow Tree Counseling, licensed in TN and KY
Sarah’s book: Healing Negative Wounds: The Impact of Trauma

How PCIT Can Help Your Anxious Child with Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP

  • What is Parent Child Interaction Therapy?
  • How PCIT is helpful for children with behavioral problems
  • How receiving PCIT virtually through online counseling benefits families
  • Are the tantrums my young child is having a normal part of development?
  • PCIT Calm adaptation for anxious children
  • Reinforcing brave behaviors over accommodating anxiety

Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP: https://ecounselingconnection.com/clinician-credentials

The Science Behind Engaging with Music for Anxiety Relief (Music Therapy) with Tim Ringgold

  • Spiritual pain
  • Neuroscience behind how music calms the nervous system
  • Practical ways to utilize music when stressed
  • Difference between listening to music passively and engaging with it

Tim Ringold: https://www.timringgold.com/

Music therapy: https://www.musictherapy.org/about/musictherapy/

36. Using Brainspotting for Anxiety and OCD with Brooke Randolph, LMHC

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 36. Using Brainspotting for Anxiety and OCD with Brooke Randolph, LMHC

I had the privilege of interviewing Brooke Randolph, a licensed mental health counselor and a Brainspotting trainer.  Brooke shares with us her insights and knowledge on Brainspotting.  She also gives some advice for those who are considering adoption based on her experience as a single adoptive mom and as a Brainspotting consultant specializing in adoption.

Episode Highlights:  

  • What is Brainspotting? How does it work? 
  • How can Brainspotting help with anxiety and OCD?
  • What happens during and after a Brainspotting session
  • Can Brainspotting be used with all ages? 
  • Comparison between Branspotting and other forms of therapy.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, I’m joined by Brooke Randolph, a brainspotting trainer and therapist, to dive into the healing potential of brainspotting for anxiety and OCD. Similar to EMDR, brainspotting works at a brain level, helping individuals process deep-seated trauma and emotional disturbances by tapping into neural networks. I wanted to explore this method further, especially after hearing Peyton Garland’s story of her OCD journey and how brainspotting played a key role in her healing.

Brooke, a licensed mental health counselor and a single adoptive mom, explains how brainspotting differs from traditional therapies. Unlike EMDR’s eye movements, brainspotting uses a fixed eye position, creating a less activating, more attuned process for clients. This approach connects the brain-body relationship, helping clients process emotional trauma in a way that’s both efficient and calming.

Brooke shares how she was drawn to brainspotting, especially for her clients with adoption-related trauma, and how it aligns with her counseling philosophy. Brainspotting offers flexibility, adjusting to each client’s needs, whether they require more structure or need to bypass traditional steps. It’s a deeply relational therapy, allowing the therapist to tune into what each person needs, creating a tailored approach to healing.

Tune into the full episode to learn more.

Links and resources:

Brooke Randolph, LMHC
Counseling At The Green House

Transcript

On today’s episode, I have an interview with Brooke Randolph who is a brainspotting trainer and therapist. Brainspotting has some similarities to EMDR in that they’re both seeking to work at a brain level to help people heal from internal disturbance. So it was neat to have that conversation and look at some of the similarities and differences.

If you caught our episode with Peyton Garland, which was a personal story where she talks about her experience with OCD and her experience with brainspotting. I know you’re going to want to check out this episode as a follow-up.

Carrie:  Brooke, welcome to the show. 

Brooke: Thank you. 

Carrie: And tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Brooke: Well, I am a licensed mental health counselor. So I’m a therapist who lives in Indiana, but I also in licensed in Massachusetts and I run a group practice here in Indianapolis. So we are currently up to 10 clinicians. I am also a single adoptive mom to a 14-year-old boy. So that makes me rugby mom those days of the week.

Carrie: Wow. Okay. I know very well about rugby. 

Brooke: I very much enjoy rugby. I like showing it to people. So maybe you can come to a game and I can keep you past that. 

Carrie: That would be interesting. How old was your son when you adopted him? 

Brooke: He was six. 

Carrie: Oh, okay. Awesome. Let me tell you about how this show actually came about. So we had a guest on our show Peyton Garland, and she came out with a book called Not So By Myself about her experience with OCD. And she was sharing about the book and how she went through brainspotting with her therapist, or was still in the process of going through those sessions. And I said, oh wow. I haven’t had anybody on about brainspotting. That would be really fun. So then I found you on Facebook and we got connected. And so we’re here to learn all about brainspotting today, how it can be helpful for anxiety and OCD. I’m super excited about that. So maybe we can just start by, just tell us a little bit about brainspotting even like how you would explain it to a client maybe that was coming in for the first time.

Brooke: Yeah, brainspotting is really exciting. It would be what I call a power therapy that helps us get deeper into the neural networks of the brain. And really what it does is it’s going to allow the brain to heal itself. And as we tune into what’s going on in the brain and what’s going on in the body, the brain is able to lead the processing in a way that’s so much more efficient than when we try to talk through something. Because when we’re talking, we’re really only going towards that neocortex, that front part of the brain. And the neocortex is not involved in regulation, which means it can’t make you feel better. And so when we’re feeling anxious or upset about something, it’s going to be much more effective If we can utilize the parts of the brain that are involved with regulation to help us process those things so that we’re not only doing the processing but also calming the brain and the body at the same time.

Carrie: That’s really good. I like that a lot. We can really get in there. I don’t know if you want to call it defenses in our thinking part of our brain, right? There’s all these layers that protect us maybe from our emotions and keep us from really going there, but when you’re able to find therapies that tap into that like the limbic system response, then that’s a whole different ball game.

Brooke: When I also explained to people, I worked from everything from children who were adopted internationally at young ages to really five functioning achievers. And if these high functioning achievers could have thought their way out of the problem, thought their way out of how they’re feeling, they would have done that. Many of them are much more educated than I am. If they could have thought their way out of it, they would have done it, but they can’t. So we need to go in deeper into the brain. 

And then for these other, these kids who may have memories that are not stored in the English language, because they were in another language at that time, or maybe they’re implicit memories that are pre-verbal and you can’t process those things from the neocortex. That requires language. So we need to be able to get more into the body and deeper in the brain. 

Carrie: Right. I’m curious for you because I think therapists find different therapies to be trained in. I have a theory on this. I’ve never done any research, but my theory is that we find things either that have helped us. We’ve seen these things, help our clients, or it’s just kind of aligns with our personality.

How did you get involved in training and brainspotting like becoming trained on that?

Brooke:  Well, I’ll tell you the story, but it’s probably goes to that part where it aligns with my personality and the deeper I get into brainspotting, the more I recognized that the principal tenants are just right along with my theory of counseling. But for me, I work primarily in adoption and I have these very early trauma, early parental separation kinds of cases. And I knew that there were like our therapies like EMDR that were really effective like we have plenty of research to show that, but also knowing the potential for overwhelm. And I’m very protective of my adoptee clients, especially my young adoptee clients. And so knowing that potential for overwhelm, I was just kind of dragging my feet really on that.

And then someone came and told me about brainspotting and I heard about it from somebody I trusted. And then I went and did a bunch of reading and I immediately started referring my clients to “okay. I think you also need to go do this.” And so here’s somebody locally. We had a few people locally who were already trained. And so why don’t you go do that? And then meet with me every other week and meet with them. And a couple of my clients did try it and one of them just put his foot down and he said, “I’m going to go see anybody else. You need to get trained now.” You know what I said? “I’m going to get trained in this.” I’m definitely like I really believe in it. And he was like “you need to get trained now.”

And what are the DVDs and started from there and did the training at home. And then very quickly helped to bring a trainer to Indianapolis so that we could have a training here and did that. And then just continued from there until the point that now I’m a brain spotting specialist trainer.

Carrie: Wow. So you’re actually training other therapists to do this as well and supervising people that are in that process. That’s pretty awesome. Yeah. It just seemed to fit and it was really helping your clients and then you decided to get trained in that. How exactly does it work? I know that’s a hard question.

Brooke: Yeah. So, I mean, Most people want to compare it to EMDR. Brainspotting was kind of discovered and developed by David Grant who was a master EMDR trainer. So he was very influenced by EMDR, but he was also very influenced by somatic experiencing and insight-oriented relational therapy and some other kinds of things.

And so they all kind of play a role. We get from somatic experiencing is really being aware of the activation in the body.  We’re talking about OCD here. And so if we have someone who has some compulsion to pull a hair or to touch something or to turn right, but asking them to really locate where in the body is that starting and turning them into making that brain-body connection.

When you make the comparison with EMDR where they’re using rapid eye movement, brainspotting is actually a fixed eye position. And so one of the ways that I explain to people about this is that a fixed eye position is going to be less activating. And you really just think about it. If you were staring down like this tiger who’s just staring at you, that’s really intense. But if you start to imagine that tiger pacing back and forth in front of you and your eyes have to fall, like suddenly the anxiety starts going up a little bit and people can feel that when I’m presenting at a conference or something then I just demonstrate like walking across the stage like they can feel it like a fixed eye position is less activating than eye movements. And so that’s just part of how we are able to make it. More flexible, less activating. If necessary for people, we can really make adjustments in the moment, which is what I like about it. That we can be very attuned to the specific client and what they need and help them have the processing that they need, whether that’s helping them turn up the activation. For people like me with chronic pain, who’s learned to ignore my body or turning down the activation for people who have just had too much trauma and can’t go all the way into. 

Carrie: Yeah. I’m glad that you went into that because when you started explaining it, it sounds like it’s really good for people who have these app reactions with EMDR, where they’re just sobbing uncontrollably and they’re feeling just really intense sensations in their body and have a tendency maybe to want to get out of that. But you’re saying it also works for people that have difficulty accessing maybe body sensations or emotions. It can help them develop that process. 

So there are some similar components in terms of it’s a mind, you say it’s a mind, body emotion therapy like you’re making those connections. 

Brooke: Yeah. They say it’s a brain-body, mindfulness-based therapy. I’ll check the website to make sure I got all the words that are in.

Carrie:  Do you usually start with some mindfulness activities? Is that part of the preparation before you go in and do the more traumatic work?

Brooke: It completely depends on the client. So one of the principles of brainspotting that I really love is there is no protocol. Because we’re very focused on the client, then a relational attunement and being attuned to the client. Therapy can’t be attunement based if there’s a protocol, if there’s steps that are involved.

And if we’ve decided that these steps are these steps for everyone, then it’s going to miss some people who that might not be because some people are going to need in-between steps and some people are going to need to skip the steps like I was that high achiever or in school and was always frustrated that they were teaching to kind of the lowest common denominator, which is what they have to do.

But for me, It missed things for me. My education wasn’t attuned to me, but I want therapy to always be attuned to my class. So we don’t necessarily have a protocol. And so for some clients, we may be doing mindfulness activities ahead of time. We may be introducing other things. Some people may come in and just start telling us about the presenting problem.

And we already noticed that they’re on a fixed eye position. And so we may just invite them to stay on that spot, whatever it is that they’re looking at it way. And let it go from there. And so that may not be the full set-up necessarily, but they’re getting into it. And so we can kind of work. It’s very flexible. We follow our clients and what they need. 

Carrie: It’s very interesting because I think my personality goes to like a “that’s too unstructured for me” like having a little internal moment. I think I really like structured therapies.

Brooke: Do you like it as the therapist or r do you like it as the client?

Carrie: I think I like it both because I think if I’m the client, I want to know where we’re going and what we’re doing. And I want it to kind of have a logical sequence to it and feel like there’s a good beginning, middle and end. And I think even with therapies like EMDR that have protocols, your therapist really has to know how to tailor that to you as the client. Kind of what you’re saying in terms of attunement.  I think that you can have attunement with some of those structured therapies, but you just have to be very careful if you find like your therapist that you’re working with is like too rigid. And they’re like, we have to do this now like you said, we have to do this next step. And that next step, you may not be ready for.

Just for the people listening out there,  I think you have to communicate and advocate for yourself as well to say “I don’t know something about this. This just doesn’t feel right.” Or maybe I’m just not quite ready for that deeper level of processing things yet. I’ve in my own work over the last probably couple years now, I’ve been incorporating ego state therapy, which has made the EMDR process more tolerable and a lot less in terms of reactions, more attachment, needs getting met.

That’s a whole another story, but this is interesting to me because different people are going to respond to different types of therapies in different ways. And one of the reasons I like to talk about so many different types of therapy on the show is not so we can have a discussion about, oh, this one’s better.

That one’s better, but more like to give people options like here’s your menu because I think a lot of people go into therapy and they’re like, yeah, I tried therapy. I’m like, Yeah but what did you do, like tell me more about that because there are a zillion different therapy techniques out there.

There’s a zillion different therapists personality styles. And it’s very hard to say like, oh, I’ve tried therapy. Like I’ve tried green peas and I don’t like him, you know, there’s just so many options out there. So this is, this was really interesting. I think you’ve kind of, you’ve talked about how.

This is a little bit different form of trauma therapy in a sense you’re kind of combining, like after they find the fixed eye movement, are you combining a little bit of talk therapy like if they want to tell that story or if they’re wanting to talk about the experience or what they’re noticing in their body?

Brooke:  Oh, absolutely. I always say to clients, you can talk as much or as little as you want to. And what it looks like is different for each individual based on what they mean. I think as a client myself, I initially was much quieter and would have to say things out loud when I felt like I was like a broken record like you kept coming back to the same thought, but I found that I  continue, I’m much more verbal that it kind of keeps pushing me forward. So I think it’s going to be different for people even in different stages. 

Carrie: Right. For part of your training or certification process, did you have to have this done to you basically? Did you have a practicum where you practiced on each other?

Brooke:  Yeah that’s built into all the trainings. All the phase training and all the speciality trainings all have kind of demos and practicums and debrief from there s we have that opportunity to experience it. And we really do encourage therapists to do their own work and to continue to do their own work. And so finding whether that’s a practice partner or a peer support group, or just finding your own brainspotting therapist and sticking with that. 

Carrie: Yeah. That’s definitely so valuable and something that really helps us grow as therapists is to be the client for a period, for a season and come back around to it when we need to, as things come up in our personal lives or our professional life. Probably one of the biggest variables that’s made me a better clinician. I’d say getting my own therapy.

So, can you talk with us a little bit more specifically about how you’ve seen maybe this be helpful, brainspotting for anxiety and OCD?

Brooke: Yeah, I mean, in general, it’s just going to help lower that activation and we can see that pretty immediately.  OCD, there are setups and discussions around that particularly. And what we’re doing allowing the brain to process, but also giving the brain something new. The brain is holding on to that obsession or that compulsion because it feels good in some way.

And so until we get something that’s better, it’s going to have a hard time letting go of that. You can think of that similarly to like any kind of addiction. If I really like eating Stroop waffles, my son really likes eating Stroop waffles. And to just say, I’m never going to do this again is hard, but when you say like, I have this thing, that’s better but I’m going to have this really sweet mango and not only does it taste good, but then I feel better and I have more energy. And once your brain can recognize that, it’s a lot easier to let go of what might be overly sugary or something that may be beneficial for you. I mean, that’s a fluff example.

Carrie: Sure. Well, I think it’s important for people to understand that our brains do change, can change and do change over time. And that we may be kind of stuck in this well-worn neural pathway that’s not working for us, a maladaptive neural network. And we can make changes to that and forge a new path in our brain. It’s not easy. It takes some time and practice just kind of like walking through a new path in the woods takes time and practice and intentionality, but it can happen. So that’s part of this process.

Brooke: We know neuroplasticity. And this just seems to be a faster way to get to it, but even then when we can’t always explain it to see the changes that come about and how it seems so much easier to do something different suddenly after doing brain spotting.

Carrie:  Do you find that people pursue this after having received some talk therapy at times and feeling like, yeah, I’ve kind of talked maybe through some of my traumas, but I don’t really feel like they’re fully processed or I’m still having the effects of some of them. 

Brooke: Yeah. I think if the people who are looking for brainspotting, it’s either because they’ve tried something and it’s not answering everything for them or someone else’s recommending it to them. Generally, although I do have people who are just doing an internet search and come up and they’re like, oh, so I read this thing on your website.

Yeah. And that sounds really interesting. Let’s can we do that? Yes, of course. You know, so I think there’s probably lots of ways, but it’s not as well known at this point. Most people are going to come at it after they’ve tried other things. 

Carrie: Great. Do you know, like when brainspotting was developed?

Brooke: in 2003.

Carrie: Okay. So it’s a newer form of therapy maybe that hasn’t had as much research as other things.

Brooke: Right. I mean, research takes a lot of time and a lot of money, the library of researches is smaller. This, you know, it’s much more experiential colloquially, all kinds of spreading kind of that way. Grassroots at this point.

Carrie: Okay. And you said the brainspotting can be used with all ages.

Brooke: In fact, Monica Bauman from Austria recently wrote a book. She wrote it in English, Brainspotting with Children and Adolescents. And in that book, she tells this amazing story about working with an infant. 

Carrie: Wow. 

Brooke: And it’s an amazing, beautiful story.

Carrie: So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person. 

Brooke: That’s a great question. I think I have moments of hope most days. I think, you know, looking at the possibility. Some recent ones would just be conversations.

I’m having with people who are for me, the National Association of Adoptees and Parents. And they’re wanting to get me as part of their committee. And like, these are all the different ways that you can make a difference like that to me has a lot of hope in that. We’re looking at that, looking at the vaccine, coming out for adolescents next. For my family, that’s really helpful. My son is really looking forward to that. It will probably be the first time he’s gotten a shot that I won’t have to have held him down because he believes in that. So that’s hope. And for us, that’s hope that we may be able to travel again. And just all the things that we are looking forward to.

Carrie: Do you have any advice for people that might be looking into adoption as an option? 

Brooke: Yeah, start your therapy. Now my recommendation, and really explore that and explore what is bringing you to adoption and get lots of different perspectives, because I think there are some messages out there. And if we are in a silo, you may not realize how very different other perspectives can be.

Carrie: That’s good. That’s good to have just kind of a well-rounded perspective on adoption. Do you say that and, sorry, this is an interest of mine only because I’ve been a former foster parent. So would you say start your therapy now because these kids are dealing with so much emotional baggage or they’re bringing that with them and that’s really going to trigger up your own emotional baggage.

Brooke: Yes, absolutely. So you, as a parent, whether that’s an adoptive parent or a foster parent. I’d probably say any parents, but you need to be working through things so that you can best show up for your kids. You can’t lead them to any kind of healing that you haven’t been able to find for yourself, that if you are struggling with being impatient. I mean how you’re what were you going to teach your kids patience. Finding those things and also absolutely. You said it wonderfully like they’re going to stir up anything that’s unprocessed in you. And I would say anything in everything. Kids and partners are really great at helping us reveal our areas in need of growth.

But just also, you know, adaptive parenting and foster parenting is really advance, It’s therapeutic parenting. It is hard and you need support and they have additional layers and additional issues that continue throughout their development and for you to be able to show up and help them with those things. You’ve gotta be able to take yourself out of that equation. You can’t be taking it personally. In one of my presentations, I talk about how, whenever my son in early ages would say like, you’re not my real mom, but I never took that personally because it wasn’t about me. I was literally about how he was feeling in that moment.

But now when he tells me you’re the best mommy ever. I don’t take that personally either because I also need to look and see that, where is this coming from. And is this actually a sentiment, or maybe he’s saying it because he has a need to connect and can I meet him where he needs to connect and again hearing the needs behind everything.

Carrie:  Or he’s trying to butter you up really well for something.

Brooke: For Sure. That may also be it. He is amazing at like getting that voice to change when he needs something. And in some ways that’s really effective. And so just kind of rewarding that, wow, I see that you can use such a kind respectful voice when you want this and helping them see that, Hey, you can do this.

Carrie: Awesome. Well, we will put links in the show notes to your practice and where people can contact you and find out a little bit more about you. So since you’re licensed in two states, I assume you’re doing some online therapy as well. 

Brooke: Yes right now, I am completely virtual, so I’m doing all of my work on telehealth.

Okay. For now. And for the foreseeable future, we’ll just kind of take it step by step and see what the future brings.

Carrie:  Gotcha. As so many therapists are doing right now. So it makes sense. Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom and insight with us on brainspotting. And it was a good learning experience for me as well, to just see how things compare to what I’m doing and who knows, you never know, I may end up getting trained in that too one day.

Brooke:  Yeah, of course. I think having an awareness of lots of different tools and theories is always beneficial. And then also finding those things that you really connect with that you guys have into and know really, really well is really important.

Carrie: I definitely agree with that.

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I feel like in this short amount of time that I’ve had this podcast, we’ve been able to cover several different forms of therapy, which has been really neat because I love letting people know that there are treatment options. That’s part of increasing.

I am working on making our website a great resource, not just for our podcast to host the show notes, but also to have blogs and other articles that are helpful for individuals on there.

If there is a topic that we haven’t covered on the podcast, or you don’t see on the blog anywhere, feel free to reach out. I would love to hear your show suggestions or article suggestions. You can do that through the contact page of our website www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com anytime. While you’re there, feel free to subscribe to our email lists to keep up with what’s going on with the podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

 Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing was completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time it may be comforted by God’s great love for you.