OCD – Page 2 – Carrie Bock – By The Well Counseling

193. When Colors and Numbers are Bad: Associations OCD Makes

Written by Carrie Bock on October 1, 2025. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie shares how our brains link colors, numbers, and events in ways that can trigger OCD. She offers relatable stories and practical tools to help break these patterns.

Episode Highlights:

How everyday experiences can form powerful associations in our brains.
How trauma can create associations that fuel OCD symptoms.
Examples of how OCD attaches meaning to colors, numbers, and routines.
The difference between ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) and ICBT approaches to breaking associations.
Practical ways to challenge OCD’s “last time, this time” thinking and reframe anxious beliefs.

Episode Summary:

Have you ever noticed how your brain links things together in ways that don’t really make sense? My daughter taught me this lesson in the funniest way—through bowling and Skittles. What started as one small treat quickly became a routine, and now in her mind, bowling and Skittles will always go hand in hand.

That’s cute when it comes to candy. But in today’s episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I’m talking about how OCD does the same thing with things that aren’t so sweet. Numbers, colors, places, even clothing—OCD can convince us they’re connected to fear, guilt, or something bad happening. And once those associations take hold, they can be incredibly hard to shake.

I’ll also be sharing why these patterns feel so real in the moment, how trauma can make them even stickier, and what it looks like to gently untangle the fear-based connections OCD creates.

This is such an important conversation, because OCD loves to trick us into believing that a color, a number, or a shirt can hold power over us. But that’s not the truth—and learning how to recognize these lies is a huge step toward peace.

🎧 Tune in to the full episode for the full story and practical ways to break OCD’s grip so you can walk in the abundant life God has for you.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, and licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing.

When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace. We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith.

I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

My daughter, Faith, is three years old, and the first time that I took her bowling, she saw the candy dispensers that were in the bowling alley, and they had M&Ms and Skittles and Reese’s Pieces. You put the quarter in, you turn it, and you get a little bit of candy. She wanted some Skittles, and I said, “Hey, I’m not sure if I have a quarter. Let me see if I have one.” And then I told her, “Yeah, on the way out we’ll get you some. I’ll give you the quarter and we can turn it, and you can get a little bit of candy.”

Now, what happened after that is that the next time we went bowling, we were in the bathroom, and she says, “I want some skiles.” I didn’t know what “skiles” was, but then I started to think about it a little bit and I said, “Oh, you mean Skittles?” She said, “Yes, I want some Skittles.” And I said, “Okay, well, when we’re done bowling, we’ll get you some Skittles.”

So now it is a part of our routine. Skittles have now been paired with bowling. When we go bowling together and we’re on the way out, I’ll say, “Okay, let me give you the quarter.” I feel okay about it because she’s not getting an entire package of candy. She’s happy about it. It’s like a little fun ending celebration. So my daughter thinks that every time we go bowling, now we’ve got to get Skittles.

Technically, that’s not true, but hey, we’ve repeated the pattern a few times. It’s kind of ingrained now, right? And the more that you do things and the more that your brain pairs certain things together, the more it associates and believes that those things should go together.

We see this in negative habits all the time, right? And routines that people have. We talk about if you smoke a cigarette after breakfast every day and you’re trying to quit smoking, that’s gonna be really hard for you because your brain’s gonna go, “Hey, we just had breakfast. I think we should have a cigarette now.”

In order to understand this, I want to go back and talk with you about the Pavlov Dog Experiment. Now, some of you may be very familiar with Pavlov and his dogs, and what he learned. What Pavlov realized was that he had some dogs that he was doing research with, and he realized that they would begin to salivate before they had food in front of them, before they needed to even digest any food.

He was able to learn that he could actually pair something with that food in order to make the dog salivate. Hence, he was using a bell in his experiments. He would ring the bell before he gave the dogs food. And after a little while, he could ring the bell and not give them food. They would still salivate, right? Because their brains were classically conditioned, as he pinned, in order to salivate to the bell instead of the actual food.

Now, how do these types of associations and things get paired in OCD? And I will say too, that this happens in PTSD as well quite often. About a quarter of the people who have a diagnosis of OCD also meet criteria for PTSD.

So, if you’ve had trauma in your past, we want that to be on the radar for you if you’re listening to this episode and that resonates with you. Yes, I know that I’ve had trauma, and that trauma may be exacerbating my OCD symptoms or may be contributing to the specific themes that you’re dealing with. That will often happen.

For example, let’s say someone gets into a bad car accident on a Sunday evening. It was just getting dark outside, and it was raining pretty hard. Now those associations might be attached to that memory in terms of that trauma.

So this person goes to drive. They’ve recovered from the car accident, they’re doing fine, their car’s all fixed, or they have a new car. Theoretically it should kind of be a clean slate, right? However, in their brain, when they go to drive in the rain, they may start to feel anxious because their body remembers, “Oh, I remember that time where it rained really hard.”

Now, it might not just do it with any old rain. For example, we have those somewhat sunny rains where it’s pretty light outside, but it’s still raining. For this individual, they may not struggle with driving in the rain unless it starts to get to that dusk hour, like it was when they had the car accident.

Maybe they’re fine driving every other time in the day except for that time period, because that’s what got associated. And now the anxiety is coming back. The feeling of foreboding, the sense that something bad is going to happen—that has gotten paired with that memory.

It may be different for different people. Someone else that had a similar experience might feel they can drive any other time except for Sunday night. For some reason, Sunday evenings just feel like, “Nope, I can’t get in the car. I can’t go anywhere.” That has gotten paired with the trauma.

What OCD will do is OCD might come in and say, “You’re gonna get in a car accident. You’re gonna be irresponsible if you drive right now. Maybe you’re not in the best mental head space to drive. Maybe you’re gonna hit a pedestrian. You better watch out. What was that bump in the road? We might need to go back and turn around and see what that is.” You can see how these things pair together.

Maybe someone did actually have a driving incident. Not everyone that has those obsessions has, so I just want to make that distinction. There are plenty of people that obsess about hitting a pedestrian or maybe hitting an animal or something that’s distressing to them. They might turn back around and look. They may not have had any issues with driving, no major accidents, no major incidences on their record, because OCD will latch to things that matter to you or things that are important. But there doesn’t always have to be something that’s necessarily happened to cause a particular theme.

Now, food obsessions might be really paired with certain things. So if you have somebody that had told you, “This is a bad food for you, you shouldn’t eat this,” and then you’re obsessing if you happen to eat that food, this might also have been paired with a specific restaurant.

For example, maybe you knew—and OCD likes to use personal experience and hearsay—so someone tells you, “Hey, I got sick on those fries at Restaurant A.” And then you’re like, “Oh, that’s weird. I’ve never gotten sick from there.” But then you happen to go to Restaurant A and eat the fries, and then OCD is like, “Oh, remember so-and-so got sick from these, maybe you shouldn’t have eaten them. Is your stomach feeling a little weird now?”

Then the internal checking starts: “Ooh, maybe my stomach is feeling weird. What’s going on right now?” The more that I focus on it, the worse it gets. We call that living the fear in inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy. The more that you’re having these thoughts and then internally checking your body and focusing on it, and then having more thoughts, it just creates this whole spiral and storm of anxiety and negative thought process.

So in the example of the french fries, let’s say that you’ve convinced yourself that you can’t eat the restaurant french fries at Restaurant A, and you’re doing okay with that. “Okay, well, I’ll just avoid the french fries over there. Not a big deal. Who cares? There’s one restaurant I just don’t eat their french fries.”

Then the next thing you know, you go to Restaurant B on another social outing at another time, another place, and you decide to have the burger and the french fries. Now, OCD is telling you, “How do you know these fries aren’t tainted? How do you know they’ve been fried long enough? How do you know that these potatoes aren’t spoiled? That they cooked them right?”

Completely unreasonable stuff, right? Restaurants aren’t out there just trying to fry spoiled rotten potatoes. If they want to stay in business and continue to have customers, that’s not what they’re doing. It doesn’t matter. OCD doesn’t care. It weaves together these arguments, gets you really stirred up, and then says, “Oh yeah, I remember that time that you got sick on the undercooked chicken at home. It could be the same way with this place over here. How do you really know? You might need to stare at that chicken really hard and make sure that all the juices coming out of it aren’t pink.”

Then you’re doubting what you’re actually visually seeing. The more that you go deep into something like that—that’s a ploy of OCD, right? Just kind of go deeper into this: really look at it, really stare at it, really make sure that this is not gonna hurt you in some way. You have to be extra careful or extra cautious.

So how do colors and numbers and other things get thrown into this mixture? Well, it could be that you had a really difficult OCD day. Let’s say you have a lot of harm obsessions or a lot of sexual obsessions that you were wrestling with that day, and you happen to be wearing an orange shirt. Maybe other things that you perceived as bad happened that day—you spilled something on the orange shirt, you had a negative social interaction with somebody else.

Then the next time you go to wear that orange shirt, after you’ve washed it, you go, “Oh, what if I wear that orange shirt again and then I’m gonna have the same exact bad OCD thought day that I had when I wore it the last time?”

If you’re in a clear head space, you can say, “It doesn’t really matter what shirt I wear. I could have lots of intrusive thoughts, I could have few intrusive thoughts, I could have somewhere in the middle. My shirt is not really going to matter.”

However, sometimes OCD has you buying into these superstitious-type beliefs like, “Oh, well, because it happened last time…” That’s another big trick of OCD. “Well, because it happened last time, it may happen the same exact way this time.” Not “it may happen”—no, it’s “it’s going to happen the same way this time if I wear the orange shirt.”

That’s throwing in a little bit of magical thinking, not really based in common-sense reality of what we know to be true.

Then it could be the same thing with numbers. If you’re noticing, “Oh, well, I have to lock this door three times,” and there’s some type of reason that three feels good to your brain. “I can’t do it another time. I can’t end on an odd number. I can’t end on an even number.”

Sometimes those situations happen. Like, “Okay, well seven is a really good number, six is a bad number.” Things people tell themselves, but they may have some validity in what they were told. We have associations for whatever reason.

What do we do about these types of situations? I’m sure that’s what you’re all wondering, like, “Okay, well, I get that. I’ve done that, Carrie. I’ve made these connections between this fear and a color, or fear and a number, or fear and certain obsessions. How do you break this?”

Well, there’s essentially one of two ways of doing this. If you look at the ERP way, they would say, “Well, you grab the $66 receipt and you move on with your life, and you don’t ruminate about it, and you don’t keep thinking about all of those things. You just say, ‘Okay, well, I’m gonna continue to live my life and not go crawl in a hole because I’m convinced that the rest of the day is gonna be terrible, horrible, awful. I don’t have anything I need to avoid. I’ve gotta work through this anxiety.’”

What we’re doing in ICBT is saying, “Look, how did we get to this point in the first place? Let’s work what we call upstream. How did we get to this thought process? How did we get to this belief system that, oh, if I encounter the number six, or if I wear the orange shirt, or if I see orange in my environment—because then of course it likes to expand over time, right? It’s not just about the orange shirt. Then all of a sudden it’s, ‘Oh no, I see orange on that building over there, and then that’s bad.’”

When those types of things happen, we need to kind of break down and look at, what is it that I’m actually doubting in this situation? What reasoning process got me to this point?

That’s what ICBT does—it really explores and digs into, “How is my OCD brain working?” And then I can unravel something. It’s almost like if you’ve ever done any kind of knitting or crocheting, and you’ve done a little bit of it, and then you kind of can unravel it and you see like, “Oh, I understand how these stitches are coming together. I understand, okay, this loop fits into this.”

When you unravel it, then you go, “Oh, this is really just a piece of yarn. I don’t need to worry about this. It’s fine.” Versus when you’re just caught in that OCD cycle and that OCD bubble of obsessing and compulsing very rapidly, you’re not able to take almost like this third-party view, this very mindfulness-based view of, “Let me peel back the layers. What’s actually going on here? What am I at the core actually afraid of?”

Because I know I’m not afraid of the color orange. I know I’m not afraid of a particular number. I am afraid of something bad happening. Me making a mistake. Me somehow being “unlucky.” And you may not even believe in luck, but that’s the narrative going on for you.

I hope that this podcast episode—I know it’s a little bit shorter—I hope it’s been beneficial for you. Let me know if you’ve ever struggled with any of these things. You can always reach out to us online at kerrybach.com/podcast.

For those of you who don’t know, we have a really great search feature on our website where you can search different topics. It’s on the podcast breakdown page. Someone told me you don’t necessarily see the search line if you’re on a phone—you might more easily access it on a computer—but you can search different topics, scrupulosity, specific themes. We had a series where we went back through specific themes. We have personal stories of people who’ve struggled with OCD.

So if you find any of that content interesting, I would love for you to head over to our website and just take advantage of the great free resources that we have on there.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

192. What I Wish Pastors Knew About OCD with Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW

Written by Carrie Bock on September 25, 2025. Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

Carrie is joined by Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW, a therapist with lived experience of OCD, to discuss how pastors can better support those who struggle through insights on discipleship, treatment, shame, and spiritual warfare.

Episode Highlights:

Rachel’s personal journey with OCD and how her faith community played a role in her healing.
How pastors can discern between normal spiritual wrestling and scrupulosity.
The role of safe spaces, gospel-centered preaching, and grace-based discipleship in supporting those with OCD.
The overlap of OCD and spiritual warfare, and how to navigate it without fear or confusion.
Resources for pastors and helpers to grow in their understanding of OCD.
Rachel’s upcoming book Gap Filler: Captive to Captivated and the hope it offers to both sufferers and shepherds.

Episode Summary:

Struggling with OCD in the church can feel overwhelming and deeply misunderstood. What if pastors had the tools and insight to offer real, gospel-centered support instead of leaving people stuck in shame and confusion?

In this episode, I sit down with Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW, a therapist who not only treats OCD professionally but has also lived through it personally since childhood. Rachel shares her story of intrusive thoughts, scrupulosity, and the long road to finding help through both pastoral care and effective treatment.

We dive into the powerful connection between OCD treatment and discipleship, the ways shame and intrusive thoughts take hold in the church, and how to discern the difference between ordinary spiritual wrestling and scrupulosity.

We also talk about the overlap of OCD and spiritual warfare—not as something to be feared, but as a reminder that the enemy wants to distract us from Jesus and shrink our world down to our doubts.

Rachel’s story reveals how pastors, counselors, and the gospel can work together to point people back to hope.

If you are a pastor, a mental health professional, or someone walking through OCD yourself, this conversation will encourage you to see God’s grace more clearly and help you understand how to move toward freedom.

🎧 Tune into the full episode.

Connect with Rachel Kuchem Woodward, LCSW:

re-vivinglivescounseling.com

www.instagram.com/revivinglivescounseling

Transcript

Carrie: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Today on the podcast I am joined by Rachel Kuchem Woodward for a conversation about what I wish my pastor knew about OCD. Rachel is a therapist with lived experience of dealing with OOCD, and she just has some great insights. We’re gonna get into topics like the connection between. C. D treatment and discipleship, OCD and spiritual warfare.

So this is a conversation that you’re not gonna wanna miss.

Hi. Welcome, Rachel to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became an OCD therapist.

Rachel: Yes. First of all, I’m just so thankful to be here. Thanks for having me, Carrie. I’ve enjoyed following you and what you do. I am a licensed clinical social worker in the state of Texas. I have a private practice.

It’s a Christian counseling practice called Reviving Lives Counseling here in Fort Worth that I started in [00:01:00] 2019. Short version of the long story is that I have struggled with OCD myself since about the age of 11. I’m now 35, and so I had a long journey involving pastors walking with me and OCD and helping me learn about it.

And then later on got clinical treatment with ERP, with my counselor, who I still see to this day. And I started seeing her around the time that I opened my private practice. And I really enjoyed getting to incorporate everything I’ve learned about my own OCD journey. Both from my pastors and my time in counseling into my practice with treating clients.

Carrie: That’s awesome. You told me that it was actually a pastor that had identified some scrupulosity for you and got you on that journey. Yeah.

Rachel: That’s such a wild story and the longer I am in this work with clients, the more I recognize how like rare that is. I guess to back it up just a little bit, when I was a preteen around the age of 11, it was when I really started questioning.

Am I a believer? Am I not? I didn’t have like a definable day ’cause I was blessed to grow up in a household [00:02:00] that never knew a day without Christ, thanks to my wonderful parents discipling me, but not having a day. Started off a couple years of just a dumpster fire in my little mind of not being able to define, you know, was I Christian or not.

And so at the time my parents were walking with me in that, a youth pastor at the time, but I don’t think any of us really saw it as OCD. Some of it just seemed as like a honest. Wrestling with faith with the pastor at that time. And then as I got older, I was like 19, 20, and at that point was talking with my pastor Darwin.

Pastor Darwin is his name. Shout out to him. He was the one who identified OCD in me. We were talking about some of my concerns about whether or not I was a pedophile and just some intrusive thoughts I was having about some sexual curiosities I’d had in the past. When that was coming up with him, that was when he kind of gently brought up like, Hey, dear, one, like, I think there’s some OCD tendencies going on here.

So the first time I really heard of like OCD and knew what it was, was actually from my pastor about the age of 19, who also knew I had some screw [00:03:00] velocity as a young teenager, but became more defined with some of the sexually intrusive thoughts I was having.

Carrie: Yeah, this is interesting and I would agree with you that that’s rare that I don’t know that I’ve had somebody come to me and say, Hey, I think my pastor actually like identified this or said, Hey, I think this is what you’re struggling with.

But I think about that and when you think about that middle school age, like that’s a common time for people to start questioning their faith. Like, do I really believe everything my parents believe? Am I actually saved or not? And then even like what you were saying with young adulthood, kind of in the 19 to twenties range, there may be a lot of different questions about sex relationships.

And so it just kind of shows how OCD can take those types of things that people experience and hijack them and blow them up into something even like way worse than that normal like wrestling process. And so. For all the pastors out there who are not Pastor Darwin and not as maybe mental health informed, or even if they are [00:04:00] mental health informed, they may know about anxiety and depression, but not necessarily OCD.

So we kind of kicked around this idea. How could we have a conversation about what do we want pastors to know about OCD? For you, like what was the most helpful support that you feel like you got spiritually during that time when you were having those wrestlings? What did that look like? Having people pray for you, having people like guide you about

Rachel: suffering.

Yeah, I love that question. I think both Pastor Joan, our age of 19, 20, 21 and later on, pastor Brian, shout out to him in my mid twenties. Both of my pastors did a wonderful job of pointing me to. The gospel in a way that I’d grown up with the gospel, but it became more specific to my actual struggle with OCD.

Like a lot of time spent around shame. I was feeling, I was feeling a lot of shame around intrusive thoughts, wondering if I’m a pedophile, wondering if I’m a Christian. Like it’s a very shameful topics. And so I think my pastor’s embodying to me like just a safe space to just be and to just get emotional support and pointing me to.

Just the [00:05:00] gospel and that Jesus wasn’t grossed out by me and they weren’t grossed out by me. And then just practically they would tell me like, yeah, I want you to go love on the kids in our church nursery. Like it was kind of without maybe them knowing it very like ACT and ERP informed of like, let’s take a step towards your values and let’s, let’s do some exposures.

Although I didn’t know what that was at the time, but Right. And so I think my fear, when I first shared this with my pastor years and years ago, I was like, oh my gosh, what if this, if I shared this, would he report me like all my OCD thoughts? And of course he didn’t. Just having people that embodied the Lord to me and letting me just take a breath, especially around the shame space, I think was one big piece that was really crucial for me.

Carrie: Was that something that got attacked? Like were you working with children at that time, like either professionally or in the church? Like was that why It was totally, you was stuck on that?

Rachel: Great question. I’d grown up working with kids like in children’s church and babysitting and all this. So it was already kind of, yeah.

Then at the age of 18, 19-year-old, I’m minor anymore, I do all these like ministry safe trainings. Oh right, yes. Which, you know, and I’m like, I can’t come get background checked and yeah. And [00:06:00] I’m like, what is this? So I think it just created this headspace of, oh no, a lot of it, the trainings were really what, if I remember correctly, the, the first time I did a ministry safe training was when like just became like a dumpster fire in my brain.

And that’s when I went and talked to my pastor at the age of 19.

Carrie: That’s a really great training. My first exposure to that was like probably a couple years ago, and I’ll say it’s a really great training, but it’s also equally terrifying because it simply tells you that like anybody could be a pedophile and you just, you don’t know.

Rachel: Yes. Well, and I think about it too. I was a social work student and as you undergraduate, I mean child abuse and CPS and all these things were, which we needed to learn about as social workers. But that was also a backdrop of like giving my brain some water. So,

Carrie: okay. It all makes sense now. Like you kind of unravel the layers, right?

Yeah. And the different things that OCD attached to like, so you would say like, okay, understanding that this what the gospel in terms of this, about what Jesus did, not about like a [00:07:00] workspace salvation. ’cause I think sometimes with people with OCD, you really get stuck on the workspace piece of it.

Rachel: Totally. Yeah, I would agree. I think just having pastors who were pointing me to grace, and even when I think about it, not just in one-on-one time with me over coffee, but even like how they would preach, I always appreciated that Pastor Darwin and Pastor Brian, like if a topic of of sin came up, it was always in the way of like, Hey, and for those of you in the audience have a really sensitive conscience, please hear it this way.

Like they would intentionally preach that way, which again, as I’ve learned, is so rare as I word people who unfortunately their pastors maybe aren’t phrasing it that way. So. Both in one-on-one discipleship and then also just like how they work, how they are as shepherds over like the church and how they’re articulating concepts like sin.

Yes, it’s very like grace based and keeping your eyes more on Jesus than on like micromanaging your sanctification, so to speak. So

Carrie: that’s definitely a good way to say it. ’cause I, I’ve seen that a lot. Yeah. Micromanaging your scientification, like, yes, I’ve gotta do this, I’ve gotta make it all happen.

Let’s talk about how some of these [00:08:00] general doubts, like spiritual doubts that you see, we call that scrupulosity too. If people are new to OCD, those are your more religious based doubts and can be doubts about whether or not you’ve committed blasphemy. The unpardonable sin. Am I really saved? Like it can cover a variety of things.

A lot of questionings about have I sinned or not, like you said, and kind of trying to deal with that. Was this a sin, was this not? And then that can definitely come up in sexual themes. Have I lusted, have I not? We did a show on that quite a while ago, but how can pastors identify. The difference between somebody that’s having a genuine, just spiritual wrestling and everyday kind of, I don’t know, maybe I’m not saved, versus somebody that’s dealing with OCD.

Like in your experience, how have you seen that look different?

Rachel: You know, I think Carrie initially, ’cause I’ve been thinking about that question a little bit initially, it can look similar just to encourage pastors, like initially the wrestling. Versus OCD might look similar. So I think the [00:09:00] initial conversation, there’s such a space to like, yeah, people have honest, spiritual wrestling.

I think some things that to look for are if it starts to loop or repeat itself or like they’re gonna re-ask the question the same way or they’re gonna come back a week later with the same. Question. I remember one time Pastor Darwin, I don’t remember what my question was, but I remember he actually like paused me.

I remember actually being a little frustrated with him in my head ’cause he was like, Hey, basically like, I love you. I’m not gonna answer that again. Yeah. Which was so helpful ’cause he wasn’t like to use the word co compulsing with me to just reassure me about something we’d already discussed. And so I think if you find yourself as a pastor reassuring someone more than once or twice, it’s like it continues and it seems like there never is an answer.

I think we’ve moved outside of wrestling into an OCD space, especially if the person isn’t able to accept like any uncertainty, any mystery whatsoever. I think those are some initial flags I could think of.

Carrie: Yeah. You reminded me of another interview that I did with a guy who talked about he had been divorced and that [00:10:00] really the.

Scripture about remarriage had like really, really troubled him. And so every visiting pastor that he would see in the church that would kind of come through as they were traveling, he would ask the same question of them. Like, Hey, tell me about this remarriage. Like, is it okay to get remarried? And all of those things.

Rachel: And I think the topics I see that come up with, I mean, to your point, it could be some morality question like marriage. It could be, I’ve seen it come up with am I a Christian? Am I going to hell? I know my journey. The other big one was the have I sinned one? ’cause I interpreted the verse first John one, nine that says if you confess your sins, he’s faithful.

And just, I took that to mean if I don’t confess my sins, I’m not forgiven. Ah. Just I think even how scripture is framed is important and how pastors like walk with people.

Carrie: Yeah, tell me about that discipleship piece, because I don’t know, I’m assuming this just from what I’ve heard from other people, but like what I see a lot of times is people have just, I don’t wanna say bad theology about who God is.

Who God [00:11:00] really is like, yes, there’s justice. There’s also love like, and the wrestling of combining and understanding that, and you brought up mystery, you know, there is some mystery in the Christian faith. There are some verses that we’re gonna wrestle with probably till we get to heaven and not fully understand.

And so what is your connection between discipleship and also getting good treatment and clearing up? I think some of those lies about who God is, what he wants for our lives, those types of things.

Rachel: Absolutely. Yeah. So I think pastor er one of my time with him, how he discipled me. I can vividly remember some conversations around the gospel, especially those passages, and I believe in First John, I think it’s four of how God is love and really fleshing out to your point, like God’s character is love.

It makes me think of someone I look up to currently. I might have heard of him, Ted Whittick. He talks about how God’s character. People of OCD tend to view as if God is gonna drop them, versus God is holding them like a kind parent. So I think in my time with Darwin to tie that illustration and learning that God was holding [00:12:00] me, not gonna like let go of me and pointing me to scriptures that were more about that and less about sin.

Not that sin is not important topic of course, but looking more at God’s character than about, again, micromanaging. Have I and have I not? And then I think what that looks like with Pastor Brian was, I vividly remember him pointing me to just stories in the gospels of where Jesus was interacting with people who felt shame, like women at the well, or the woman who was bleeding, or the adulterous woman.

I think John a, it’s one of my favorites. And so just pointing me to these stories of Rachel Luca, how compassionate Jesus is towards these women who feel shame. And that was very transformational for me. ’cause I, I read those story growing up, but had never connected it to myself and the shame I was feeling.

There’s just some specific initial passages I can think of of how my pastors like discipled me, and then specifically with being clinically treated. So I was 29 before I got formally only six years ago, which is crazy. Got formally diagnosed with OCD from my Christian, but clinical counselor, and I wasn’t even there initially for OCD, which is funny, thinking about it.

[00:13:00] And so she did a lot of the exposures with me around the fear of being a pedophile. Which I thought were dealt with by that point, but clearly we’re still dumpster fire in my mind. Yeah. And at the same time, I was still meeting with Pastor Brian who is still encouraging me around like Jesus and shame such that when I was going through exposures with Michelle, shout out to Michelle, my wonderful counselor, she would have me walk up to the shame, the fear if, if I was a pedophile and then I was hearing from my pastor.

And even if you were not that you are, but even if you were like, where would Jesus and the cross? And so really I feel like I have this Venn diagram story that’s unique of like, I had care at the same time from both my pastor and my counselor, which I think was really a beautiful marriage between clinical and the biblical.

Carrie: Was there a point where your pastor said, Hey, I think I’ll continue meeting with you, but I think you need to talk to a professional. Was that how you got into therapy or?

Rachel: That’s a great question. Yeah. Brian was always, and still is, very supportive. I’m so thankful. I’ve had pastors who are so supportive of mental health.

I’m like, yes, counseling go, which [00:14:00] is, I also have learned is rare. But again, at the time, what’s funny is I had kind of signed myself up for counseling to process, like life transitions, starting to own private practice. I wasn’t even there for, but then I think it was like five sessions in and she was like, hello, there’s something you really need to deal with.

So we started processing it that summer and then I would tell Brian. Thankfully having people at my church who, if I ever sounded like I was starting to loop on something, they would tell me like, Hey, why don’t you run this by Michelle? This sounds like a little OCD sneaking in. I’d be like, oh, thank you.

Appreciate that. So they were aware of it. That’s good. It was kind of how that, I guess, organically came up.

Carrie: That’s interesting. So for your exposures, were you spending more time around children or were you doing some imaginal script writing? Like what did that look like?

Rachel: Yeah, it was a lot of imaginal in vivo script writing or I guess, yeah, I guess not in vivo, but imaginary script writing and like writing out the word pedophile.

What if I’m a child molester? Just like, and kind of walking it up to it in my mind at that point. I would say still [00:15:00] some contact with children, like children nursery occasionally. I remember a fall. I intentionally was like, okay, let me just like sign myself up to serving in children’s nurse free again, because literally my mind hasn’t processed this yet.

They probably don’t dunno, that’s why I was there, but I was like, I there to serve, but I also need to expose myself. They were just happy to have the help. I mean, yeah, I was like, I, I need to take diapers and be okay, you know? But anyway, but yeah, I, um, very much, a lot of it was imaginary, writing out certain words that were triggering and letting it just flow where it did.

So for me, a lot of it was riding the wave of shame. I think a lot of exposure rate can be riding in the wave of anxiety. I wasn’t like physically anxious about it or panicky. I was just very, had a lot of shame. It led to very dark thoughts of self-harm. I mean, that kind of a thing was riding the wave of, and that’s where Jesus met me and showed me like, there’s nothing I can’t fill.

I can fill the gap for you on anything including this horrific thing.

Carrie: That’s incredible. I mean, I think that that’s a really great testimony just to say that Jesus has released you from that shame of having those [00:16:00] intrusive thoughts. And was the diagnosis part of that too? Just recognizing like, oh, it’s not really me just creating this randomness in my mind, this is actually like OCD.

Rachel: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that knowing that I had OCD, so I forget, first heard the term from Pastor Darwin and then went to different conferences and was learning more about it. But then when I got to Michelle going like, oh, I have OCD with Viro subtype, you know, spiritual screw velocity, and then realizing even.

Gosh, it was only a couple years ago. I realized through the I-O-C-D-F, which I’m very passionate about, what they do, kind of shout out to them. There was a group session they had for pedophilia, OCD, and I was like, what is this? I was like, wait, this is an actual subtype of OCD because Michelle was treating me for it.

She didn’t label it as like, this is pedophilia, OCD. So it was more recent. You realize like, oh, like there’s all these different subtypes. I have like five of them. Along with like harm OCD relationship, OCD, all those like hidden kinds are ones that I’ve wrestled with. But definitely knowing that it was OCD is very liberating.

’cause then to your point, not in my head about why I’m in my [00:17:00] head.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s great. It is helpful to know. It’s like, oh, I’m not the only one. That’s going through this. I think that’s really huge in breaking down the stigma and the shame of the whole thing. I wanna talk about a little bit about mental compulsions.

’cause you said it’s really all going on in your head. You’re not checking doorknobs, you’re not wiping things down with disinfectant or, and this is a lot of people that I see as well deal with a lot of mental compulsions. So what did that look like for you in the spiritual realm? Was there a lot of like repetitive praying or things of

Rachel: that nature?

For sure. So kind of walking through my seasons group velocity, I would say initially it looked like a lot of mental ruminating. Am I Christian? How do I know if my sweet dad or pastor said something? Encouraging, which it was, but then analyzing, well, how do I know if that’s true? Just ruminating on things.

In my mind, confessing sin. Sometimes I was a little external, but often like reviewing, have I sin? Do I need to confess this? And then

Carrie: like internal checking.

Rachel: Internal checking, right? And then [00:18:00] certain verses, which I have a lot of precious clients who also have this, but certain sermons or verses, I’m like, I take it black and white, very literally.

A big part of my testimony with that was, I think I was 20. I don’t know why it is a vivid memory. I was driving on the highway one day and it occurred to me, I think this was the Holy Spirit, but at the end of Psalm 1 39 says, search me and know me. Save there, be any hurtful way in me. Leave me in the way ever lasting.

And so just putting that responsibility on God. God, you’re the Holy Spirit. You show me if I’ve sinned. I don’t need to keep micromanaging and triple checking, have I sinned and letting him be the spirit rather than me trying to do that. But the age of 20, thankfully, a lot of the spiritual scru, really after a decade of it.

Majorly died down. I’m still aware that I have tendencies like that to this day. I have to be very careful if I confess this and it’s like two seconds, move on. Like we don’t ruminate. So I still have some inclinations towards that, but that’s kind of what that looked like for me.

Carrie: But I mean, that’s very hopeful for people to hear that.

There was a time period where it was really, really rough and consumed a lot of thought energy, and now you’re just able [00:19:00] to say like, uh, okay, don’t slip back into that. Like the warning signs, like, that’s a slippery slope. Don’t keep going. This thing that I’ve seen with clients, and maybe you’ve had people say this to you too, is they’re like, I don’t wanna just blame my OCD.

What if I’m really sinning, but then I’m saying it’s OCD, getting attached to this. How do you address that? I’m laughing ’cause I had a sweet client tell me that last week and I was like, oh,

Rachel: how I process. I literally told her, I said, what a great question. Let’s process that together. I think somehow, Carrie, when we’re working with clients that are believers, which this climb speak was, if we can point ’em back to the cross in the gospel of like, thankfully Jesus has you.

So let’s walk up to, okay, sure. Let’s pretend you were sydnee. I’m confident that the spirit in you will show you through conviction, not condemnation. Yeah. And so CD is always gonna have a voice of condemnation and a blooping and never ans it never resolves. And the spirit is going to be through conviction.

That leads me to love God and love people not implode. I think something in my own story I’ve learned over the years is just not get on the [00:20:00] despair train. Like if it’s leading towards despair and doubt, that’s probably not a fruitful thing for me to get on and trying to explain it that way to clients.

Carrie: No, I think that’s great. I think we, kind of going back to what you said about micromanaging your sanctification, it’s like if we can help people see, you really can trust the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit. It’s just so mind willing. The Holy Spirit is in us. So I can’t wrap my mind around that. That is a really big concept.

Yeah. Yeah. And so like we can trust that conviction is a good thing and it’s healthy for us, and it maintains our relationship with God, and we don’t have to run around and micromanage our spirituality. We can show up every day and say, here I am, God, I’m a mess. I’m broken. I’m dealing with this sin issue like I’m fighting and I need you.

We really wanna create that healthy level of dependence and trust on God versus. Feeling like we’ve gotta do it all ourselves.

Rachel: And I think that even ties to identity as believers. Something Pastor Brian really kind of drove [00:21:00] home with me is that like we are the beloved, like we are his beloved children.

And if my posture towards God, or towards my head space with OCD is I’m just a beloved child, that gives so much more breathing space than trying to drill down. And again, micromanage. And trying to make sure to cross every T dot, every I, it’s like, well, if Jesus already died, he crossed every T and dotted every I for me.

So I don’t have to keep doing that anymore.

Carrie: I am really interested in this next topic, OCD and spiritual warfare, because this is something I think I’ve been asking God about. It’s like, what role does spiritual warfare play in OCD? And we want to be really careful because then people get. Super freaked out like, am I possessed by demons?

No, that’s not what we’re talking about here. We are talking about that we do see in scripture that our battle is not against flesh and blood, and that there’s spiritual things happening, even like our flesh and the spirit. There’s a war between Satan and what he’s trying to accomplish in Jesus and what he’s trying to accomplish on this earth.

So how do you see those playing [00:22:00] out like the spiritual warfare in OCD?

Rachel: I love this and I loved knowing that you’re gonna ask about it. One of my most passionate topics. Yes. So I think initially, if I’m processing this with a client or friend or whoever, making sure they first know, to your point, you know, OC D is a mental health issues so that people don’t oversize because we both probably heard horrific stories of people who had demons prayed out of them, and it wasn’t a demon, it was just OCD.

So usually always start with making sure someone understands it’s a mental health issue. Then once they have grasped that, then I will gingerly tie in spiritual warfare. If I sense, honestly, I pray like the spirit leads me to bring that into a session. I think with spiritual warfare, I often see that come up.

I’m gonna quote Ted would say again, but he’s phrased it as OCD is kind of the surfboard that’s already there and the enemy kind of rides on the back of that surfboard. And so thinking of, you know, in John 10, it talks about the thief comes to kill, steal, and destroy. These are the brethren. What revelation is it?

[00:23:00] 12 or wherever that is. And so if I see a client really being accused, often it’s the accuser coming on on the back of OCD, which is the doubting disease anyway. And I think helping people know spiritual warfare, to your point, doesn’t have to be this woowoo thing I think we think of as demon possession.

Not that I don’t think demons are real, that’s a thing. But I think it can even be through the enemy trying to distract us. Because enemy’s goal is to get our eyes off of Jesus. However that looks with someone who has a sensitive conscience like me. It might look like, let me get her to stew so much on her sin that she’s not looking at the cross anymore.

I believe that spiritual warfare, I think the enemy wants us to micromanage our faith and shrink our world down to the size of that, and that is spiritual warfare. So I think you’ve been helping people define like if your world is shrunk down to the size of a sin, that’s maybe the accuser accusing you of something to get your eyes off of the Lord.

Carrie: And just this idea that in terms of OCD and values and acceptance and commitment therapy is about moving towards your values. And so we’re, we’re helping people with that in the process of [00:24:00] therapy. And oftentimes people want to do something and it could be a variety of different things. It could be, I want to get married, I want to date in order to get married.

I want to go on a mission trip. I want to serve in the children’s ministry. Feel like they can’t because they feel like OCD is so bad. I’m just, life is a little bit arrested because of all these thought loops that I’m constantly in. And so that’s where I see it as like people having difficulty moving towards the things that they really believe wholeheartedly, that God wants them to pursue.

And so I think anything that we can do as believing clinicians to help support people in that process is, is so huge to know. Like. No. Like we want you to walk in the abundant life that Christ has for you and move forward.

Rachel: Absolutely. And I really love the verse in Psalm 34 that talks about magnifying him because I sometimes I tell clients like, Hey, whether it’s the enemy attacking you, or it’s OCD, we don’t even have to like analyze.

I’m all about saying one prayer, like, Lord, if there’s attack going [00:25:00] on, protect us one and done. So it doesn’t become a compulsion. But after that it’s like we don’t even have to scrape the bull, so to speak. And pinpoint is this enemy, is this OCD? Is this leading me to magnify God? No. That’s all I need to know.

I think sometimes that’s really helpful for someone with SCR loss or OCD to know that they don’t even have to completely like, well, is this the enemy or is this OCD? This isn’t of Jesus. It’s not leading me to love God and love people. So I’m gonna, to your point, walk towards my values of love, God and love people, and be embraced by God and his character, and move towards that.

Carrie: I think another way to say that is like love or fear, am I in complete terror? We know that that’s not of God. Yeah, that’s a helpful distinction. Yeah. Perfect. Love cast out fear. Yeah. That’s awesome. So you’re in the process of writing a book, which is really exciting. So tell us a little bit about the book and where that’s going.

Rachel: Yeah, I love that you asked. So my book, Lord Willing, will be coming out next summer. I’m in the process of figuring out self-publishing and that whole process, but it’s called Gap Filler Captive to Captivated, and it’s a [00:26:00] unique book, I think, ’cause I’m trying to speak to two audiences and build a bridge between people who have OCD, the suffer.

People who are trying to help OCD, the helper, whether they be a clinician or a pastor, have a big heart for shepherds in the church and for pastors particularly. And so it’s a resource to help bridge helpers and sufferers to have less triggering, more fruitful conversations around specifically pure o those more hidden types of OCD.

I’m gonna try to address it holistically and biblically and show how Jesus fills the gap, which the whole book unpacks the gap. Illustration is something Michelle drew me back when I was in counseling with her for OCD, and then Jesus kind of gave me part two of the illustration of the cross filling it.

And I’ve used the illustration with clients. They have found it really transformative, and so I’ve decided to build a book around that whole. Illustration from my own counseling journey.

Carrie: Oh, that’s really exciting. I’m so excited for you. And I think that that’s gonna bless a lot of people and hopefully God will open doors for you to be able to share more about that.

If pastors are looking for other [00:27:00] resources, like you mentioned Ted Wick. Sorry, so I said his name wrong. But, um, are there other like books that you’ve read or things that you’ve found helpful?

Rachel: Ted has some great resources. One of my friends and colleagues, um, Justin Hughes. He’s in Dallas. He is a Christian counselor and very passionate about this topic like I am.

I would definitely point to his resources. He’s writing a book as well on OCD, which is very exciting. And then I think there’s even just some great resources on OCD, like on Piro in general. Like there’s different workbooks and I think are helpful just for pastors to understand like what it is. Um, I like Mike Emile’s article on OCD.

He’s from CCEF, if you’re familiar with them. He kind of talks about kind of spiritual as heart themes that we have with OCD, like perfectionism and certainty and those sorts of things. And there’s a good book called Christianity Cure, OCD by Ian. I forget his last name. Osborn. It’s Osborne. Yeah, that’s a good one.

Yeah, so I would say there’s some on group velocity, spiritual OCD, and there’s some, even just basic OCD [00:28:00] ones. I think if pastors even just understand what OCD is, it can be helpful.

Carrie: And for anybody who’s wondering why I haven’t had Dr. Osborne on the uh, podcast, he has declined saying he is too retired and old to be on the podcast, but we still love him anyway.

We love him. Hurts out to him. Yes, absolutely. Hard part. Yeah. That’s a very interesting book and talks about Martin Luther’s story. Mm-hmm. And just like what grace and that understanding and how that changed everything for him was really insightful. Yeah. From what I remember of that and really just getting to that place of can you trust God with a, whatever that Harry scary thing is.

That’s what I kind of remember the takeaway from that book. If you can boil it down, like is this something you can really trust God with?

Rachel: Absolutely. I think he has another book out about just Martin Luther. I saw something a couple weeks ago and I was like, oh, I don’t know. Anyway, but, and there’s even some great devotional resources like Pastor Brian years ago recommended I read Gentle and Low Leaf.

You’ve heard of that. That one is great to just point people to God’s character. It’s not OCD per se, but I feel like it [00:29:00] was written for someone like me. So worth mentioning. That’s a great resource as well.

Carrie: Getting back to that father, heart of God is so huge, and that can be hard for us to understand and really conceptualize.

Well, this has been a really great conversation. I’ve enjoyed chatting it up with you. I know we could probably go on and on and on, but we’re gonna Yeah. Wrap things up. I like to ask some of our guests who have struggled with OCD, like, what do you feel like recovery looks like for you now?

Rachel: I love that. I think an ongoing embracing of uncertainty and taking leaps of faith every day in my life.

Whether that’s with how I read a verse that used to trigger me or how I interact with a client, if that triggers my harm, OCD or how I’m with a kid in the nursery, if it triggers pedophilia, OCD, like I’ve still triggered. I just have a relationship with uncertainty now that I’m more resting and um, Jesus is my certainty.

Carrie: That’s great. Thank you for sharing. That’s very helpful.

Rachel: I just appreciate you having me in everything you do.

Carrie: Thanks so much for tuning [00:30:00] in today. If you know a pastor that needs to hear this or a friend that needs some encouragement, will you please send this episode to them so that more people can experience hope and know that God is with them on their OCD journey.

191. Can’t Let Go of Your Stuff? The Stories and Emotions that Keep You Hoarding

Written by Carrie Bock on September 17, 2025. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores the hidden stories and emotions that make letting go of items so difficult. Drawing from conference insights and personal experiences, she shares practical wisdom to help anyone declutter and create a home that feels peaceful, joyful, and welcoming.

Episode Highlights:

The stories we tell ourselves about objects, including how joy, identity, and memory influence what we keep.
Why letting go can feel like loss and the connection between grief, trauma, and possessions.
The trap of “I might need this one day” and how scarcity thinking fuels clutter.
How acquiring can be just as much an issue as discarding, including the cycle of bargains, “great deals,” and aspirational buys.
Ways to reframe decluttering as generosity by shifting from guilt to joy through blessing others with unused items.

Episode Summary:

Have you ever tried to declutter your home and felt completely stuck? Maybe you wouldn’t call yourself a hoarder, but you know you’re holding onto too much.

You tell yourself things like, I might need this one day or this reminds me of someone I don’t want to forget. And before you know it, your home feels overwhelming instead of peaceful.

Clutter isn’t always about laziness or disorganization—it’s often about identity, memories, grief, or even responsibility.

In this episode, I talk about why letting go feels so hard, how our emotional attachment to things keeps us stuck, and the ways scarcity thinking and “just in case” habits fuel clutter. I also share why buying new things can be just as much of a problem as not being able to let go, and how shifting your perspective can help you finally make progress.

Clutter isn’t just physical, it’s emotional. When our homes are full, our minds often feel full too. But when we can step back and challenge the stories we’ve been telling ourselves about our stuff, we start to find freedom, joy, and more space to actually live.

If you’ve ever felt guilty, overwhelmed, or emotionally stuck when it comes to decluttering, you’re not alone. This episode will encourage you to see your possessions in a new light and give you practical ways to let go without feeling like you’re losing a part of yourself.

👉 Tune into the full episode now.

Explore Related Episode:

69. Let’s Talk About Hoarding with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript

Hello. Today we are talking about hoarding the stories that you are telling yourself that are keeping you from letting go of items. Even if you feel like, well, maybe I’m not quite a hoarder. I wouldn’t describe myself that way, but I do really struggle to let go of things. I keep way too much stuff. And I have a hard time emotionally clearing out my items and making my home a place of happiness and health and socialization that I want it to be.

I went to a couple interesting sessions on hoarding at the International OCD Foundation Conference, and I wanted to just share some of that information with you that I learned on the podcast because. It’s really insightful. It might be helpful for some of you that are struggling to get rid of items.

Hoarding is a topic that I’m super interested in. It’s hard to find people who are hoarding, who are actually motivated to get the help that they need, so I always enjoy working with people. Also, they typically aren’t in a financial situation to get the level of intensive help that they need. But if that is something that you are struggling with, just know that that’s one of my interest areas.

I’ll throw that out there. It’s not something that I would say I have a ton of experience, but I have worked with several people who are struggling with hoarding and found it to just be very rewarding and fulfilling for me. Now, I think also I probably can relate a little bit to some of the things that they’re experiencing just because I grew up in a family of what we like to call pack rats.

People that keep way too many items out of scarcity, out of thinking that, Hey, I might need this one day, or. Hey, I could really use this for this. Those kind of ideas certainly were tossed around in my family. I got rid of some round cake pans one time because I told my mom, you know, I really wasn’t using those.

If I’m gonna make a cake, which I hadn’t made a cake in a long time, I was like, I really just use the rectangle one. I don’t use the round ones. And she was a little horrified that I got rid of them, even though it was something I wasn’t using and probably wasn’t going to be using. She was like, oh no.

Like you didn’t get rid of that, did you? And when we went to clean out my parents’ house, there were just all kinds of things that were thrown in the trash that they really didn’t need to hold onto. I’m talking about like cassette tapes from a conference they went to, if you remember that very old computer paper that had the, uh, dots on the side where you had to feed it through.

I have no idea why my mom still had some of that, but she did. We didn’t have any kind of printer like that. We found a very old school Walkman in the house, baby teeth, from when I was a baby. I have no idea why she kept baby teeth for as long as she did. Like when your children are. Full grown adults?

Like are you looking back, being sentimental? I don’t know. Maybe I’ll understand it when I’m older. My daughter hasn’t started losing teeth yet, but needless to say, there were just tons and tons of items that had not been gone through. My mom taught preschool like years and years ago. She had preschool lesson plans on the top of her bookshelf.

She kept a lot of stuff and at that time in their lives they had a bigger house where they had room and they had storage and they had cabinets, and they had closets where they could keep all of these things that they deemed that they wanted to hold onto. So that can be really tough. Just know if, if you need to do a little bit of what they call Swedish death cleaning so your kids don’t have to do it, please go ahead and do that.

It’s quite challenging enough about my story. I wanted to talk with you about the emotions and the thought processes that might keep you holding onto items and the ideas that people have around objects and really the story that you tell yourself. One of them is that you may say like, well, I just really like these items, whatever they are, and I enjoy them.

They bring me joy. I don’t wanna get rid of them. It could be little figurines that you’ve collected since you were a little girl. It could be a variety of things. Not everything necessarily has a specific use. Some things are just decorative. Not everything has a specific use for it. We have little knickknacks and things.

I have things right now that I could look at that are on top of my bookshelf. You could say. I’m not using them actively, but I am using them for decoration. Of course, but we hold on to things that we enjoy or that bring us joy. But then what can happen is that you have way too many of those items for the actual space that you have to hold them, and that’s when it becomes problematic, right?

You may enjoy looking at certain things, but then you get so much stuff and it just kind of gets covered and covered, and then you’re not even really enjoying those items or able to enjoy those items. Because you’re not able to get to them or you’re not able to get them out anymore, and that’s where you really have to kind of pair those things down to what’s most important and sometimes something that you might have found enjoyable in the past.

Maybe you look at it now and you go, why did I ever buy that? Or, I’m not even sure I really like that anymore. The problem with hoarding is that there’s a lot of bringing items in and then those items don’t get reevaluated. That becomes an issue, right? Maybe there are certain things that you have created or crafted.

I have like the only thing that ever made it off of the pottery wheel. In college, the pottery wheel and I in pottery class, had a really hard time. We had a rough go at it. So I have this little piece that I have held onto because it’s like a sense of accomplishment. It represents that I did actually successfully get something off the pottery wheel without it falling apart beforehand.

I don’t think that I really had the patience or the time or the right, proper training on how to do what I was doing. Our teacher just kind of left us a little bit to our own devices. So maybe that’s something I will go back to at a later date. But that is something that I have really held onto. Like I am not getting rid of this thing ’cause it’s the only thing that I only pottery that was successfully completed on the pottery wheel.

And there may be other things that you have little crafts that your kids made and. Just makes you think of them at a certain age, could be a variety of things that fall into this pleasure category, right? We have to be able to evaluate what is the space that we have to hold onto these things. How large are they?

How many of them do you have? And so there may be times where you might need to take a picture of something. So that you have it digitally instead of actually having it physically, that can end up saving you a lot of space, right? Sometimes people hold onto things because it’s an identity that they used to have that they don’t have anymore, and so it’s almost like they’re grieving that identity that they used to have.

This could be a mother that has held onto like an enormous amount of children’s clothing or baby clothing, just really kind of sad. I’m not gonna have any more children. And it could be that she’s held onto these four, like her children are now fully grown. Or in the training they give an example of kind of an aspired identity that someone was holding onto.

So this woman wanted to cook and she had hundreds of cookbooks in her house because she just really wanted. To cook and to cook Well, the problem was that she couldn’t get to anything in her kitchen because her kitchen was overrun with items. So she was holding onto this identity of somebody that she wanted to be, and she felt like if she let go of the cookbooks.

It would be like losing that aspirational identity that she really wanted to have. I know for me, there were a lot of things that I cleared out of my old attic when I got divorced because there were representations of me being a foster parent and even though I wanted to be a parent in the future. I didn’t know when that would happen or what that would look like.

It was hard for me and I had to come to an acknowledgement that this was a life that I was no longer living and holding onto these items continuously was not serving me for the life that I was trying to live right now. That was a tough one. So you may have experiences like that. It could be just little trophy that you got as a kid, or bonding time that you remembered having and some type of representation of that.

Even the identity of being a daughter, maybe you lost a parent. Oftentimes hoarding and grief and loss can go together. Because you might have items from that loved one who passed away, or you might have things that remind you of them, and so getting rid of the item feels like you’re losing that parent or loved one all over again, and that just can feel really intolerable for people.

Typically, people are holding onto items to avoid this sense of loss. Or other negative emotion, maybe regret that comes up as a result of having to let go of those items. So when you can take the time to really sit with things and say, okay, why am I actually holding onto this? What is the thought process behind it?

How do I feel about holding onto it right now? How do I feel about packing it up to give it away? Or how do I feel about selling it? How do I feel about it no longer being here? If you can answer some of those questions, that really helps you get to a place where you come to understand why you’re holding onto the item and what you’re avoiding as a result of trying to get rid of a particular item.

There might be things that have been really painful or traumatic that have happened to you. You have items that remind you of that pain or of that trauma because you haven’t fully processed that. It might be hard to let go of those items. So just be aware that you may say, okay, well, I can pare down the things that really bring me joy.

I have a hundred angel figurines. I really don’t need that many. I compare that down to 20 or to five, whatever feels good. Whatever your space allows. I compare down the things that I enjoy, but I have a really hard time letting go of these reminders of trauma. Sometimes people are motivated to hold onto items due to a sense of responsibility, feeling like I have to be responsible and with the items that I have, I can’t be wasteful.

I can’t just throw things away, so I’ve gotta hold on to these water bottles because I could really make something out of this recycled material. I could make art out of this, or I could use it for a child’s craft project. So you may just have toilet paper tubes and the paper towel rolls and other things.

Certainly you could theoretically use those in other ways or use them for craft projects. If we are really looking for a use for an item, I’m sure that we can come up with one. I’m sure that you can be creative, right? I think we could do this with this, Hey, here’s a piece of styrofoam from the Amazon packaging.

I might need that for packaging something else in the future. And so you may have these types of odds and ends and you feel like, well, if I throw that away, I’m just kind of being wasteful. And you might wanna look at like your history and your family story and what things were told to you. You might have been told, Hey, hold onto that.

You might need that one day. Or we might not be able to get some of that. I don’t wanna have to pay for that later. So let’s hold onto this. So just noticing these are for people who have like a ton of. Items in their home that they feel like they can reuse instead of throw away. And there can be an avoidance of guilt.

There’s a feeling of guilt maybe of letting go of these items and not holding onto them, because then maybe I’m not being morally responsible or ethically responsible. I’m not being a good steward of something if I just throw it away. Or oftentimes people get stuck in this trap of, well, I could make money off some of these items.

I do have some nice stuff, and I could make some money and I should go on Facebook marketplace and sell it. Or I should have a big yard sale, but I’m not really in a good area where I could have a yard sale. So it’s going back and forth, back and forth of how to get rid of the items, and so it feels irresponsible.

To just go give it to the thrift store because I could make some money off of it, and then that just allows the items to linger longer in the household. You have two issues with hoarding that we can talk about. One is the getting rid of items. That certainly is an issue, but another is an issue of acquiring items.

Someone may find things at at yard sales or thrift stores and say, Hey, like I could really use this. I think that I could put this with some other stuff that I have, or, it’s such a good deal. It’s such a good bargain that I’m gonna go ahead and get that. Then I’m going to somehow use it, but then the day never comes for them to use that item again.

Think of maybe 10 different uses for it, but that doesn’t actually happen. And once you start noticing these stories and these thought processes like, oh, I could use that one day. I might need that. I might know someone who needs that. I can use that, no problem. This goes with another piece that I have, or I just really like that and it’s on sale, or, I’m getting a great deal, but are you really getting a great deal if it’s something that you don’t need?

So you have to learn to start telling it yourself. A different narrative when it comes to acquiring and when it comes to getting rid of items. And so your change or your shift in narrative might be just in a place of contentment. Like, I have everything that I need. I don’t need anything else. And something that I have to tell myself sometimes.

’cause I can see things and go, oh hey, I could use that, or I could put this there. And I might tell myself, yeah, I probably could, but I really just don’t need that. I don’t need, it’s going to eventually become clutter in my house and I don’t wanna have that. I wanna live in a space that feels really peaceful to me, that doesn’t feel overwhelmed by stuff.

And changing that narrative about getting rid of items. I think for Christians, this can be a really big deal because we have a calling to be generous and to share with others. So if you have items in your home that aren’t being utilized, that could bless somebody else, like someone else might really be able to use that.

You have an opportunity, opportunity to give that to them or to give it to an organization that you really care about. Maybe your church does yard sales for mission trips. Maybe they have items that they donate to the pregnancy center, or they’re doing some type of fundraiser yard sale for someone who wants to adopt a child.

It’s all really great opportunities to bless people and that will help you put yourself in a place of joy. When you do get rid of items, when Steve and I got together, we just had duplicates of a lot of things. We had a bunch of Crockpots, which was kind of funny. He had a couple. I had a couple, and I said, two people don’t need four crockpots.

So we had this yard sale and we just said, Hey, it’s a donation yard sale. We’re gonna donate whatever you decide to give for these items to our local charity that supports foster children. And it was super fun and it was really great because then we didn’t stress about how much money we were making or not making off of things, weren’t frustrated by that.

And we were able to get some things out of our house, and then whatever didn’t sell, we just shipped off to the local thrift store and were able to. Bless some people with some good deals, and they were able to find some stuff that they needed. So if you can do something like that, that may help change your mindset on getting rid of items.

I know that hoarding is something that can be really overwhelming for people. A lot of times they don’t get help until they’re already in a really challenging and really difficult situation. And so if that’s you, I just would encourage you to get some support, whatever that looks like. It might be personal support of somebody that it can help you go through things.

It might be professional support of somebody that can help you really examine some of these beliefs and emotions that you have connected to items. I will say too that there’s a great book called Buried in Treasures you can get ahold of, and it also has guidelines if you know someone who is hoarding and you’re struggling to try to help them.

It does have some guidelines for friends and family who are helping people who hoard, and if you are struggling with that, it has quizzes, it has activities. Has worksheets, all kinds of things that you can utilize in there. Don’t buy it and hold onto it if you’re not gonna use it, but if it’s something that you feel like, Hey, I’m gonna take a little bit of time every day to work on tackling this, I think that that’s really great.

An intensive option might be a really great option for you to just dive in and work with either a therapist, professional organizer, somebody who can help you go through those items. Sometimes you might be telling yourself a story about having something to a level of perfection. You might say, Hey, I need all of these Christmas items in order to have a great Christmas.

I need to have multiple Christmas trees with all of these ornaments. But then it’s just taking up all of this time. Energy to decorate, or you just have boxes and boxes and boxes of things and you keep Uping Christmas stuff because maybe Christmas was never magical at your house. People were always fighting or your parents were just really poor and couldn’t get you much, and it was kind of depressing.

So now you’ve decided that your Christmases are no longer going to be like that. You see how like we weave these narratives in our mind and then we live it out? Or maybe you tell yourself, well, I’ve gotta buy my kids the best, latest and greatest toys. So we just have massive amounts of toys all over the house, and that’s what really needs to happen.

And that might be coming from just economic insecurity that you grew up with, et cetera. And noticing that these stories are highly emotionally charged, especially when you’ve told them to yourself over and over and over again.

So we can add this to. This section that talks about the different emotions or processes in hoarding that I talked about earlier.

Sometimes you might be. Telling yourself a story about having something to a level of perfection. You might say, Hey, I need all of these Christmas items in order to have a great Christmas. I need to have multiple Christmas trees with all of these ornaments. But then it’s just taking up all of this time.

Energy to decorate, or you just have boxes and boxes and boxes of things and you keep acquiring Christmas stuff because maybe Christmas was never magical at your house. People were always fighting or your parents were just really poor and couldn’t get you much, and it was kind of depressing. So now you’ve decided that your Christmases are no longer going to be like that.

You see how like we weave these narratives in our mind and then we live it out? Or maybe you tell yourself, well, I’ve gotta buy my kids the best, latest and greatest toys. So we just have massive amounts of toys all over the house, and that’s what really needs to happen. And that might be coming from just economic insecurity that you grew up with, et cetera.

Noticing that these stories are highly emotionally charged, especially when you’ve told them to yourself over and over and over again.

190. Dealing with Uncertainty and Why We Stopped Praying for a Miracle with Steve and Carrie Bock

Written by Carrie Bock on September 10, 2025. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this heartfelt episode, Carrie sits down with her husband Steve to talk about one of life’s hardest challenges: living with uncertainty. They dive into what it looks like to live with faith, peace, and joy in the face of an unpredictable future.

Episode Highlights:

How uncertainty impacts whether you struggle with OCD, chronic illness, or everyday worries—and why acceptance is such a key step in the journey.
The power of living one day at a time, with practical ways to choose joy despite pain and limitations.
Why Steve and Carrie stopped praying for a miraculous healing, and how they began to recognize God’s blessings in unexpected ways.
How scripture, especially Paul’s story, can provide encouragement when life doesn’t go as planned.
What it looks like to trust God in seasons of suffering, and how shifting perspective can bring lasting hope and resilience.

Episode Summary:

Have you ever found yourself caught in a spiral of “what ifs,” wishing you could just know the outcome before it happens? For many living with OCD or chronic illness, uncertainty doesn’t just create worry—it can feel unbearable. And yet, uncertainty is something we all must face.

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I sit down with my husband Steve to talk about what it really looks like to live with faith when tomorrow feels unpredictable. Three years after his diagnosis with spinocerebellar ataxia, a rare degenerative neurological condition, our family has had to navigate a new reality shaped by unknowns. Instead of focusing on the miracle we once prayed for, we’ve learned to see how God’s grace shows up in smaller, everyday ways that are just as powerful.

We dive into how OCD can magnify uncertainty until it feels impossible to move forward, and why acceptance becomes such an important part of finding peace. Our conversation explores how prayer has shifted from asking God to take away the struggle to seeking His strength, endurance, and joy right in the middle of it. We also uncover the comfort found in scripture, especially in Paul’s story, which shows that God’s power is often revealed most clearly in our weakness.

This conversation isn’t about having all the answers or tying everything up with a bow. It’s about what it means to keep showing up, to trust God in the unknown, and to discover that even in the middle of uncertainty, there can be hope and healing.

Tune in to Episode 190 of Christian Faith and OCD to hear the full conversation and find encouragement for your own journey through uncertainty.

Transcript

Carrie: So I dragged you up up here to record a podcast episode?

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Carrie: And I didn’t even tell you what it was about, did

Steve: I? Nope. I got nothing. No video, no nothing. It’s all good. All about surprises.

Carrie: I actually wanted to talk with you about uncertainty. And kind of dealing with uncertainty on a spiritual level.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower wife and mother licensed professional counselor who helps Christian struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you.

With practical tools for developing greater peace, we’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you.

So let’s dive right into today’s episode. Uh, always a jokester. If you haven’t met my husband here, this is Steve, and we have some new listeners here, and we’ll give the very abbreviated version of your story. So when our daughter turned six months old, he got diagnosed with Sino, cerebellar ataxia, or SCA for short, which radically changed our whole life trajectory.

You were staying home with our daughter, so you had already quit work just ’cause of all the health issues that you were having, but. We then filed for disability. Once we knew what you actually had. Once you had a diagnosis and you stopped working, stopped driving, it was a big change and a big life shift that happened.

Yes. Talk to us about kind of now we’re three years past that and if people wanna go listen for more details, if that’s super interesting, you can go back and listen to our anniversary episodes. We can link some of those in here for you. I feel like you do really well living day by day and walking through this journey, and so, so many people, and myself included, I have in the past, even with this issue, get really hung up on the future.

What’s gonna happen? I don’t know. How am I going to handle this? It could be anything. It could be what if my company lays me off and we don’t know how to pay our bills? It could be, what if something happens with one of my children? What if I die? People face all kinds of uncertainties that they then can obsess about.

Mm-hmm. With OCD and OCD can take uncertainties that we all deal with in our life and just blow them up to a whole nother level. So these are things that people struggle with, but I kind of wanted to talk about it to you from a spiritual perspective, just of how do you deal with the uncertainty of having a chronic condition that is a degenerative neurological condition.

We basically affects your balance. It affects your vision, it affects your memory, it affects all kinds of things throughout your body because it’s a nervous system disorder, and we in essence don’t know how this road is going to go. We don’t know. There’s so many different types of ataxia. We don’t know what type of attacks say you have.

We’re hoping to get some genetic testing, but even with that, that’s not really gonna give us a ton of information necessarily. This is a rare disease. Mm-hmm. Like how are you navigating this?

Steve: Well, first, before everything happened, I was a lot more of a nervous person. I worried about tomorrow a lot more than I do now.

I’m a planner, so I may not outwardly say things, but inwardly I’m like, oh my gosh, how am I gonna make this? After I got diagnosed though it was a blessing in that I just had to worry about how I felt today. Okay. Worry’s probably the wrong word. If we’re gonna be spiritual, I shouldn’t be doing that.

But I had to focus on today. We’ll say that. When I first got a, it was hard. It was an extreme life change. Everything changed. Yeah. And having a child, a newborn is difficult enough. It’s a blessing, but man, is it difficult. Such a change up, especially when you’ve been single for so long and then you get married, have a child, things change.

Add a disease to that, and it really throws things around a little bit. So once I got past that initial shock and was able to accept, okay, I have this disease, I can’t wrap my head around what exactly I have because there’s so much that’s unknown about it. Or what will become of it? Is it gonna get better?

You don’t know. And after a while you just learn. I’ll take it day by day. Yeah. That’s just what I have to do.

Carrie: I just wanna hop in here and say, that’s super relevant for our folks dealing with OCD. I think even just getting to that point of acceptance of the diagnosis can be super hard. Even just sitting with that and saying, okay, I thought maybe I just had a little anxiety, but then things got really bad and I got diagnosed with OCD.

I didn’t expect to be going through this challenge. Or sometimes it can be like one event that triggers them into this tailspin where then they’re not eating and sleeping and they’re highly distressed. Mm-hmm. Or having difficulty working. So it’s different for every person, but for some people it can really knock them kind of off course pretty quickly.

And that acceptance piece of like, oh, now life is different because now I’m having this to navigate. Is really, that can be hard. I like what you said about, there is some level where you have to accept like, okay, this is where we’re at right now.

Steve: Yeah. This is it.

Carrie: This is what we’re dealing with.

Steve: Yeah. And I think I had to accept that every day might be different.

Today might be a lot of pain, tomorrow might not. Yeah. But today’s today. Mm-hmm. So what am I gonna do about today? I have to choose joy. I have to choose to be happy. Somehow. I have to do what I can to be happy. So I wake up and I go, okay, how am I gonna complain less? My wife would probably appreciate that.

Or how am I gonna just have a smile on my face? How am I gonna play with my daughter today and make her laugh? Maybe I don’t have the energy to jump around or hit a ball with her, but I can make her laugh. I can talk with the toys, and those things make me happy seeing. My family happy, makes me happy. So I had to find purpose.

Okay, God, what is my role? It’s very different from the average person, and that’s tough, but I didn’t want what I had to be a life sentence.

Carrie: Yeah,

Steve: Because I think if you consider whatever your thing is as a life sentence, that’s gonna bring you down. That’s the only option. There’s no way out because you think you have a life sentence.

If you think, okay, how can I use what I have to make others happy? How can I be happy with what I have and make the best of it? What can I do today? And then each day I found my attitude changed a little bit. It was easier to be happy.

Carrie: When you talk about today. I think a lot of people have a hard time hitting the reset button on that.

For example, if they were dealing with OCD really badly yesterday, they’re gonna wake up this morning and go, oh my gosh, am I gonna have all these intrusive thoughts today? What’s gonna have, oh, I can’t handle this. I don’t wanna live like this another day. And so what would you say to somebody that’s going through that to kind of help them hit the reset button?

Because I think if that’s our expectation of the day, then it is gonna go rough, right?

Steve: Yeah. That’s a tough question because I think a lot of that depends on, like in my case, how do I feel today if I have an ongoing headache, for instance, or a migraine? It’s really hard to be positive. It’s hard to think past.

Yeah. What it is that’s ing you. But if I can just say, okay, what’s the positive, let me take a mental note. Just for a second, if I even can think that way. How can I get through today with what I have? And what I have is I have a daughter in my case who’s smiling at me. Daddy, let’s go play. I don’t feel like playing, but I’m gonna stand your hate.

Why don’t you do a puppet show for me? Try to reverse things. Do it a little differently than you did y yesterday. When those thoughts come through of, man, I do not wanna feel the way I did yesterday. Or I don’t want to have whatever it was bringing me down or that pain back, or, I think if you can just stop and say, okay, this is where I’m at.

I can’t change that. Maybe it does happen, but until it does, I’m gonna hang on to something. I’m gonna hang onto a Bible verse that I can just repeat in my head or

Carrie: what’s been helpful for you. Have there been certain verses.

Steve: More than anything else. I tend to read acts, Romans, those areas, and I love reading about Paul.

Mm-hmm. Paul has been, he’s been my dude. I don’t know another way to put it, because the way he starts out this rough and tough guy, kill all Christians, be done, be gone. And then all of a sudden the script is flipped. God’s like, I don’t think so, pal. Watch this. And kaboom and his whole world flips. That’s kind of a very abbreviated way of saying it, but his whole world flips and suddenly there’s compassion.

There’s a will for things to change, for people to find God and what the whole salvation story and things flip. And then he goes to prison. And yet some of his best writings were while he was in prison. Yeah. He becomes an encourager more than anybody else, and he has an affliction. Don’t know what that affliction is.

And I think everyone with an affliction says, I bet Paul had what I had, but in my case, I like to think it’s an eye pain. But who knows? And it really doesn’t matter because the thing of it is, is he had something. Yeah. And yet he’s encouraging people and writing at his very best through it. And I think if you look at what you have as a blessing, it will get you through.

Mm-hmm. It will help because what you have, somebody else is also going through. And if you call yourself a Christian. Then how can you reach out to someone else so that they can say, Hey, none of us have the exact same thing. We’re all different. We’re all individuals, but I can really relate with you. How do you have a smile on your face?

How is this working? And there’s something in you that they can pull from. It’s a blessing.

Carrie: I think I’m comforted by Paul’s story in terms of what you’re talking about. Mm-hmm. I think it’s second Corinthians where you said, I prayed for God to take this away. And God didn’t answer the prayer the way that he wanted to.

And a lot of times people pray, God, I just don’t wanna deal with these intrusive thoughts anymore. Please take this OCD away. But God said, my grace is sufficient for you, and that God’s power is perfected in our weakness. We have this treasure in these. Jars of play, and it’s not about us, but it’s about God and what he wants to do through us.

Right? I mean, I think the takeaways for people really are allow yourself to have a fresh start each day, and if you can’t have a fresh start each day, have a fresh start each half of the day even. Yeah. Just because your first half of the day went bad doesn’t mean that your second half of the day has to be bad.

You can change your mindset and say, okay, how can I reset and really be present? I know for me, you get so much information and I think people, they get a variety of information from other people on the internet and so forth, and when you first got diagnosed, and we always tell people, don’t Google this because you’re gonna think Steve’s gonna die next week, or something like that.

Because there are people that have much more faster progressions and much more serious conditions. And deteriorate a lot faster. But I think that there’s a, a variety of of reasons for that. But even what you read, whether it’s about OCD, whether it’s about your physical health condition, isn’t really a good indicator of how your future is going to go.

No. And we have a friend who’s been on the podcast before John, that talked about joy in the midst of his cancer struggle. Mm-hmm. I mean, he is been living with terminal cancer for over five years.

Steve: Yet, he’s the happiest person you would ever meet.

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: The most optimistic person I think I know if I’m ever down, he’s the one I call.

It just seems so weird when things are going bad or, or whatever. Or you’re sad to call someone with terminal cancer to feel better.

Carrie: Right? Yeah.

Steve: That

Carrie: doesn’t seem right.

Steve: Seem and yet. It’s such a beautiful story. It’s such a,

Carrie: mm-hmm. A

Steve: great testimony and such a great thing of what God can do. He did not allow that situation to become him

Carrie: or to rock his faith.

He actually says that that has brought him closer to God and would say that that’s the best thing that ever happened to him. And

Steve: I always think of that. I think I agree. I’ve grown to admit that as well, that it is the best thing. Mm-hmm. Because it changed my mindset. It made me realize, golly, this life is so short.

Let’s do our best and make our best. Let’s not be selfish and just not do anything with life. Or when there is a bad day, I say that. I don’t wanna sound like I’m finger wagging at somebody. Like, shame on you. No, it’s start from today. What little thing can I do to make myself happy, to make others happy and just mm-hmm.

Draw closer to God? How can I do that?

Carrie: I wanted to read a couple verses here. One was Proverbs three, five and six, which people may be pretty familiar with. Mm-hmm. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways. Acknowledge him and he will make your path straight.

And I think when I was going through this. Diagnosis. And also at this time in our lives, mom was dealing with pancreatic cancer and she died shortly after you got diagnosed. So everything was just kind of a mess in life. And we had a young child and I just remember like those periods of just waking up and just saying like, okay, I trust you, God.

Like that was it. Like that was, this was not some long elaborate prayer, right? It was just like, I don’t know what’s going on. It’s life is crazy right now, but I trust you. And it was almost kind of like. I became my anthem at that point to just say, I’m surrendering this over. I believe that you’re good. I believe that you have some kind of plan in all this mess, and I’m gonna choose today to say I trust you.

And so I hope that that encourages or helps somebody else.

Steve: That’s true too. There are days when I’m very fortunate that I’m not in bed all day or in a wheelchair, especially on the days when I’m not feeling good, and it’s usually at night that I really struggle. There are times where I say, okay, I can’t sleep pray.

Just pray and be bold, and if you gotta keep repeating the same thing, it’s okay. That’s part of it, and I really like Proverbs three, five and six. That’s actually one of my favorite things to read and has been for many years. So it’s uplifting.

Carrie: I think that there’s so many questions that we have about.

Like you said, being a planner, when you first got diagnosed, we were in this awful split level house and I was just thinking like, oh gosh, we gotta get out of this house like tomorrow. Mm-hmm. We became really super panicked about it. We asked my family, can we move into my grandmother’s house? And then you got some therapies and some things shifted and changed.

Mm-hmm. We decided not to do that, that things were okay. You reached kind of like a little bit of a more level of stability? Yeah, during that time, but I remember just panicking because they had told me if your husband’s in a wheelchair, it’s a matter of when he’s in a wheelchair. Right. And our financial situation and the housing situation, like it just was not a good time for us.

We couldn’t just pick up and move and buy another house basically we were at, it was still. Kinda rebuilding my business, coming back for maternity leave and all of that. Yeah. And we kind of crunched some numbers and we were just like, no, we can’t. Mm-hmm.

Steve: We can’t do

Carrie: this right now. That was tough and that was something we had to trust God with.

And over time, God gave us the ability to move to get in a different financial situation. Mm-hmm. And blessed us with this great one story house. We do have a lunch room upstairs, but all of our bedrooms are downstairs and bathrooms and things. That was something I think we had to trust God with. Mm-hmm.

Of. Also, we’re in the land of Middle Tennessee where they love two story houses everywhere. It’s like you might have one bedroom downstairs, but then the rest of the bedrooms are upstairs and so we didn’t want, obviously us to be downstairs and our. Daughter to be upstairs. That wouldn’t work for our family at all, and God just opened up this door and placed us exactly where we needed to be.

Our house sold super fast and then we were just looking and looking and praying and praying, and we’re so thankful. Yeah, to be here. That was just a big, just testimony of God’s faithfulness and God’s grace in the midst of. A really hard situation and hard season. Yeah.

Steve: I think being able to move around a little bit, I’m walking better.

That’s the other thing I’ve learned is once you are able to do some things that you couldn’t do before or didn’t think you could, or you see change, man, it really just boosts you. You look back and go, mm-hmm huh, I’ll be, I can do something more than I could do before, or I feel a little better today. I definitely think that’s encouraging.

It’s encouraging when you can do more than you could do yesterday, even though tomorrow might not be that way. But for today it’s good.

Carrie: I’m curious, I think for us, at least where I’m at, and probably I would imagine where you at, we’re not at a point of praying for a gigantic miraculous healing that you’re able to walk normally tomorrow or that you, you’re able to see perfectly clearly and God restores your eyesight.

I think God has the capacity to do any of that certainly. That’s not how I pray about it now. And would you agree with that?

Steve: Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie: And why?

Steve: Why

Carrie: have we stopped praying

Steve: for a miracle, do you think? That’s a good question. It’s not that God couldn’t do it. Mm-hmm. It’s not. But I think the way that I’ve seen God use me, I’ve been able to go on mission trips.

People will always said, all right, God, I need a way to talk to people. I’m just not good at opening up. Mm-hmm. And talking to people about the gospel, that’s a very difficult thing. Gimme something. Well that phrase, be careful what you pray for. And I think I spoke about this before. Here I am, I’ve got a cane or a walker, or they see me wobbling.

Maybe they wonder if I’m drunk or something because of the way I walk. But I actually walk better now, but I still have that cane. That’s my something. Mm-hmm. That actually opens the conversation. So having something and people knowing that you have it, it makes an impact.

Carrie: Yeah, and just at FYI, for everybody, not all 50 year olds who walk with a cane have been in a car accident because that’s what people usually I come up and ask you, you’ve been in a car accident?

Steve: If I got a dollar every time I was asked that I would be a billionaire by now.

Carrie: I think the reason, and I wanna talk about like how we do pray, but the reason that we’re not praying for that now I think is because God has opened our eyes to what the blessing has been in the midst of suffering. And the blessing for me is that you have been able to be such a huge part of our daughter’s life and how beautiful that’s been.

I think it’s creating a greater compassion within her. It’s shifted the way that. We’ve done family life and I think affected our priorities and we’ve drawn closer to each other and drawn closer to God through the whole process. So in a way, like I could not be thankful for it then, mm-hmm. When it first happened, but I can be thankful for the blessings that we’ve seen.

Now God’s grace. And I always felt like we will take the miracle or the healing because I have a vast spectrum view of healing.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Carrie: In whatever form that comes. However God wants to give that to us. And so in a sense, we have been healed of the hopelessness for sure. We’ve had a lot of support, encouragement, met other people in the community, whether online or in person, and realized there are a lot of people that are living longer than we initially thought was possible.

So we’ve been healed of, in a sense of hopelessness. Mm-hmm. And we have joy. That in itself is a beautiful miracle out of this. The miracle for me that I see every day is that, like you said, you went down, but then you went through some therapies that got you back to a more stable place, and now you’ve been working on walking.

Mm-hmm. Which is really good for this condition, and you walk as you can. Mm-hmm. And that I think, has really helped you become in a good, stable place. Yeah. Your mindset is really good. So in a lot of ways. You are doing better than you were when you first got diagnosed. And to me it’s also a miracle that as much as we follow up with your eye doctor, they’re really not seeing a whole lot of changes in your vision.

That was a huge fear for us, that you were going blind in the beginning. And so I think we have a little bit more reassurance that there’s no promises on whether or not you lose vision. We don’t know. Yeah.

Steve: And I mean, I’ve had vision loss, but it hasn’t continued.

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: And that’s such a blessing and I’ve, I’ve had the balance.

But now it’s a little better. I have my days. It’s easier when you’re in the comfort of your own home versus right in a crowd of people, which is something people always, oh, you’re walking better. Well, it’s a funny disease that way, but it definitely was a lot worse, a lot more difficult when I was first diagnosed.

And then, like you said, I went through therapy and having to kind of relearn how to walk and tell myself, okay, I don’t walk heel to toe very well, which apparently is how most people walk, but I can stomp and so no bug shall live a under me, but I can walk dog on it. Anyways, that’s been a good thing, and you pray for healing.

God will heal me one way or another. It’ll either be on this earth or when I get to heaven. Life is short. I don’t wanna be so selfish to focus about me the whole time knowing that when I get to heaven, I’ll be healed. So what can I do while I’m here on the earth? That’s been my focus. There’s nothing wrong with asking God, Hey, heal me.

There’s nothing wrong with that,

Carrie: right?

Steve: I don’t wanna take away from how he can use me either.

Carrie: How do you pray about this disease now

Steve: that God will use me? Lord, whatever begins or starts, or continues, or whatever from this disease, whatever happens, how can I be a light to others? How can I remain positive?

Help me to, mm-hmm. Just continue to keep focused. I keep my eyes on you and provide for my family as best as I can and not be a complainer. I, I don’t wanna complain about this. I may complain about the dishes. I may complain about how dirty the car tires are. I may complain about a lot of things, but I don’t wanna complain about this disease, and I really don’t wanna be a complainer.

That’s not a good thing. My prayer has been, Lord, I don’t wanna be a complainer. I wanna be able to be someone who can do what you want me to do. Yeah. If continuing on the mission trips is the thing, then so be it. Just, I wanna be able to get to the airport and not have to worry about security. Mm-hmm.

Making me wanna stand up and do jumping jacks ’cause that’s not gonna happen. But what can I do and just help me, help me to have, keep my sense of humor and bless others and that’s important. And help my daughter. That’s a big one too. Help our daughter. God blessed us with the daughter and mm-hmm. How can we raise her?

Right? She’s been put in our charge. What are we doing right? What do we need to do better on? Mm-hmm. That’s a big prayer, so protect her.

Carrie: I would say that I pray that God gives you the strength and endurance to do whatever it is that he has called you to do. And I do pray for preservation over what you already have.

Mm-hmm. Like your eyesight and your ability to move. And we’re very blessed and we’re very provided for sure by God and really just. We’re kind of simple people. We don’t have a ton of needs in general, and fortunately you’re not on because there’s no cure for this. I guess one of the blessing. Yeah, that’s a blessing.

That’s a blessing in the sense that we’re not paying like $500 a month for medication or something crazy like that, that you don’t have to be on like really expensive medicines and things of that nature, or go through really expensive treatments ’cause there just aren’t things for that. As of this day and age, I wanted to wrap this up a little bit by sharing another verse.

This one’s about suffering. Romans eight 18. I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. And there’s an element. We’re always longing for heaven. We know that this world is not our home. This life is not it. We want to. Take as many people to heaven with us as we can and share the gospel.

Love people really well. Love God, love people. But this isn’t it. We have this amazing home in heaven where there’s no suffering, there’s no tears, there’s no pain. There’s only joy in Jesus and ultimate fulfillment and just our everything. Do you think about heaven a lot.

Steve: Definitely more so than I used to.

I have asked God, I wanna live to be old enough or for faith to be old enough again so we can be there for her and see her through the school years and all of that. I do think about it a lot. I think I’ve lost a lot of friends and family and different ones. Yeah, for sure. You know, and I think about that and think, well, I wanna be sure that the people I know, know how I feel about ’em and where I stand.

And that’s not, I think about that more than I ever did before. I’m not getting any younger either, but they say as you get older, you start thinking about that more anyways. But when you get, I don’t know who they is or they are

Carrie: people in general, yeah,

Steve: Alabama’s coming out. But I do tend to think more about heaven than I used to perhaps because I do have a disease and I do see things, but I also see people who are quote unquote, perfectly healthy.

Who are in far worse shape than I am, at least spiritually it seems. Oh yeah. Not to be judging them saying, oh, you’re going somewhere else. But you see people who are not happy. Yeah. So if you take away the physicality of someone, their physical needs, and you just look at someone spiritually, you look at hearts and hearts only.

It’s a big difference. Mm-hmm. I would venture to say that a lot of people who are in the situation that I am in, perhaps their heart check is a lot better, or their heart is a lot better than those who are in the gym every day running five or 20 miles a day or whatever. You’re in the best shape of your life and your career is the best it’s ever been, but your heart is garbage, your heart is black, your heart is bleeding.

It’s not good. That’s where I say, okay, God, how can I reach those people?

Carrie: Well, thanks for coming and sharing about uncertainty. You let me kinda literally, uh, yeah. I wasn’t really drag you in here and

Steve: Yeah. And

Carrie: you had

Steve: uncertainty about what the podcast say was about. I wasn’t too certain what we were gonna talk about, but I was like, okay, whatever.

It’s cool. It’ll be good. It always is. Appreciate you having me on.

Carrie: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith in OCD is a production of by the well. Counseling opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or by the Well counseling.

This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

189. Are You Stuck Working Too Much?

Written by Carrie Bock on September 3, 2025. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores the link between overworking and OCD, sharing warning signs of burnout and offering biblical wisdom and practical strategies for balance, rest, and healthy boundaries.

Episode Highlights:

How overworking and OCD are often connected.
Key warning signs of burnout to watch for.
Common beliefs that keep Christians stuck in unhealthy work habits.
Why rest, boundaries, and compartmentalization matter for recovery.
Faith-based strategies to find balance and honor God through healthy work rhythms.

Episode Summary:

If you’re anything like me or the clients I work with, you know how easy it is for work to take over life. You start with good intentions—wanting to be responsible, productive, or to simply do your best. But before long, the pressure grows, the hours stretch longer, and what once felt like healthy drive begins to feel like an exhausting weight you can’t put down.

For Christians with OCD, this is especially challenging. OCD has a way of latching onto work, fueling perfectionism, fear of mistakes, and the constant belief that you have to prove your worth.

Burnout isn’t just about working too many hours. It’s about believing lies that tie your value to your productivity. It’s about the guilt you feel when you step away. It’s about never letting yourself rest because there’s always one more thing to check off the list. And yet, God never designed us to live this way. Scripture calls us to rest, not as a reward when the work is finished, but as a rhythm of life that reflects trust in Him.

In this episode, I open up about how OCD and overwork become tangled, why so many Christians silently struggle with burnout, and how God’s truth offers a way forward. We’ll look at what burnout really looks like, how to recognize when OCD is driving unhealthy work habits, and how faith invites us into balance and freedom.

If you’ve ever found yourself glued to your laptop long after hours, replaying work tasks in your head, or feeling guilty when you take time off, this episode will encourage your heart and give you hope.

Transcript

Hello. I want to talk with you today about a trend that I’ve seen with several of my clients that are dealing with OCD, this connection between working too much and OCD. We’re also gonna look at, do you feel like stuck working too much? Do you feel like you have to? There’s no other option. Has work become the most important thing in your life, even though you would identify it’s really not the most important thing.

Maybe your family is your friends, the social life that you wanna have, your church community.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower. Wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

Let’s face it, the history of work has changed. We used to be that everyone went into a physical location back in the day, a little time card or something where you clocked in and you clocked out for an hourly wage. Now, some of you still do have that. That still does exist, but for many, many workers nowadays, people are much more likely to be working remotely, either on a hybrid basis or a full-time basis.

So it’s very easy for people to get up in the morning, slug down some coffee, not even eat breakfast. Hop on their computer and immediately start dealing with work stuff. It may be that you’re even lying in the bed, opening up your work emails. Ugh, we don’t want to do that, right? That’s not healthy for our brains and for balance in our life.

I’ve talked with many people though, who have no morning routine. You know what I’m talking about? Um, basic things, things that you do with your children. Get up, brush your teeth, eat breakfast. Put on real clothes. Don’t just stay in your pajamas half the day. Our brain really loves. Containment and compartmentalization, whether that’s physical containment in terms of where you are doing your work time containment.

You don’t necessarily have to have a huge office space at your house. Maybe that’s not conducive to where you are. During COVID and I was having to work from home, I literally had a corner of a room that had a chair in it and it had something to set my laptop up on. I had a laptop stand. I had a way to type, and that was what I was working from during the majority of COVID.

In that sense though, even though it was just a corner of a room, it was a small section. Even my home office right now is like a corner of our bonus area upstairs. It’s nice because when I go into that space, I only do work in that space. So my brain knows, Hey, when we sit down in this office chair in the corner of the upstairs bonus room, that’s where the magic happens.

Right now, I’m in my physical office, so I know when I drive in here and I come here and get to my desk, I am doing work here, and that really helps our brain. If you’re doing emails from the kitchen table, and then you might be in a chair in your bedroom at some other point working on a work project. You might be in your living room, but you also use those rooms and those areas for other things.

So then your brain doesn’t have that compartmentalization. What I see post COVID is that people are working now more than they ever have. It seems like because we can work more remotely, we have the opportunity to work, can just easily suck more hours of our day. We actually wanted to, and people end up working a lot of hours, but not necessarily getting more done, and we’re gonna be talking about that later in this episode.

Another thing that’s happened, a trend I’m seeing is people not valuing arrest. And this can be super hard for people with OCD. Who have been driven to be very productive. Maybe it was a huge value in your family to work hard. I know that it was in mine. Both of my parents were very hardworking people, and so it was a huge value that if you wanted something in life that you needed to work for it.

The problem is on the flip side, that we also need to know how to rest well. Yes, it’s good to work hard. That’s a great value to have, but it’s also important to take time away from our work and to rest as Christians. We do not want our work to become an idol. We don’t want it to be the thing that we are worshiping that’s consuming a ton of our time and energy.

Now if you feel like you’re been stuck working too much, you may have some warning signs of burnout. So I’d like to go over those with you really quick. Let’s say that you used to enjoy your job, but now you don’t. You don’t wanna go in there, you don’t wanna touch your computer. It feels like a have to, not a wanna, like you are just struggling through trying to get out of quicksand.

Maybe it feels like you’re just demotivated. You don’t feel like doing anything, and even though you don’t feel like doing anything, the problem is that your mind is consumed with work all the time. I’ve gotta do this for work. Oh no, I’ve gotta follow up with that person. I’ve gotta send this email. How am I gonna fix this problem?

Oh, maybe I need to do this. I gotta talk to so and so about that. And it’s just can be constant if you are not compartmentalizing. Kind of going back to what we were talking about before, your brain is gonna be if you’re constantly switching from work to home task or constantly getting interrupted.

You’re going to have a lot of these disorganized, random thought processes. Let’s say maybe that you don’t have much of a life outside of work and your family is suffering, or your other relationships are suffering. Maybe your relationship with God is suffering your relationship with yourself. And what I mean by that is your physical health has decreased.

That’s another warning sign of burnout. Maybe you’re skipping sleep, relying too much on caffeine, not taking care of your physical body, not exercising. You’re exhausted all the time. The only thing you have energy for is you get up, you work, and then at the end of work, you just crash. You’re done, and you do not have the physical energy to pursue the other things that you wanna do.

You may have noticed as part of this physical burnout that you are experiencing, chest pains, heart palpitations, or other signs of stress, stomach and digestive discomfort when you are in a constant state of fight, flight, or freeze, that arrest your digestive system and keeps you from being able to process food in a healthy way.

The last warning sign of burnout is that you feel like you can’t take a day off. You feel just absolutely uncomfortable. When you do have time off, maybe you’re twiddling your thumbs, feeling like you should be doing something you don’t know what to do, and you have determined that taking a vacation will be more work in the long run.

Now I can relate to this because at a previous job we had an expectation to have a certain number of client hours in our month, and it didn’t matter if you took a week off, your expectation was still the same. What did that mean? That mean we really had to front and back load our vacation with client hours.

And let me tell you, that’s stressful. It makes you not wanna take days off. So when I left there, I ended up taking some PTO money with me because it just wasn’t worth it a lot of times to take the time off. That’s a sad place. I hope that you are not in that same scenario with your work, but you might be.

I want to talk with you now about some beliefs that will keep you feeling stuck working too much. These are really important. Whenever we are trying to change our behavior, we have to look at what are our belief systems and what is our identity. Your belief systems are going to drive your behavior and how you view yourself.

Your identity is also gonna drive your behavior. So first belief that’ll keep you feeling stuck is my value and worth is based on my performance. You may have decided that your value or worth is determined by how much money you make by having to continually increase that amount, and so you are on this constant treadmill because it’s just never enough.

It’s like, well, if I could make a little bit more, everything would be better. I could think a little bit more, it’d be okay. So it doesn’t matter if you have this belief or this value that I’ve just gotta make a little bit more money, and then things will be okay. But then you get to a little bit of that point and then you say, well, things really aren’t okay, and you don’t feel good about yourself.

Maybe I need to be making even more money, whatever the case is, or you feel like I have to achieve a certain educational level to be valuable or have worth, I have to achieve certain accolades in my position. In order to do that, that is going to keep you just constantly, constantly striving, but left empty.

It doesn’t matter if you achieve those things, there’s still gonna be some other target that you could be going for. If you make a million dollars, you could still say be unhappy with that. I find that a lot of people have fallen in to this performance trap. You are valuable and love just the way that you are by God.

He sees you. He knows you inside and out. If you want to do things with excellence to please the Lord, that is a good thing. But know that if you’re trying to please somebody else, or if you have to prove something to a parent, or you have to prove something to yourself, you’re going to just continue this same cycle over and over again.

Second belief that will keep you stuck working too much. I don’t deserve this paycheck unless I put in massive amounts of hours. You may say, Carrie, you don’t understand. These people are actually paying me really well, and I would say, good, that’s awesome. That’s because you have a certain skillset that they need in their company.

You are meeting a need there. They have decided to pay you that amount to get that job done. That doesn’t mean that you have to work 50, 60, 70 hours in order to accomplish that. People really struggle with this when they move from an hourly job to a salary job. They’re used to trading a certain amount of time for a certain amount of money.

However, that is only one way of working. So it can be a huge mental shift to change out of that time for money exchange. Now we have to realize that working more hours does not produce a better product. Whatever your product is, it may not actually be a physical product. It may be a service. I think we need to say it again.

Say it a little louder. For the people in the back, working more hours does not produce a better product. If you are working more hours, you are more likely to make mistakes. You are less likely to have new, spontaneous, creative ideas. Because you’re not giving your brain a break. Your brain needs time and space to rest, to problem solve.

And if you’re not giving your brain that it’s not functioning at its optimum capacity, I love Mondays. Let me tell you why I am so productive on a Monday. I wake up, I work out, and I take my daughter to school. I hit the ground running on Mondays because I have had time and space away from work. I feel refreshed.

I feel rejuvenated if I go away on vacation or even to a conference because it’s still like work, but it’s a different type of mental reset. I’m around people that are doing some of the same things that I’m doing and there’s energy there. It, it doesn’t matter if it’s a counseling conference or a podcasting conference.

If I am able to get away for a little bit and then come back, I just feel so awesome to be at work. I’m like, yes. I’m gonna step in there and crush it today. And I don’t know if you have had some of those experiences or can think back on those times, but that is such a beautiful thing when we are able to shift gears or sometimes maybe even do a different type of work within our position, like get a different project.

It just allows you to have a different perspective to be able to come back and think more literally about what you’re working on. That, that kind of stuff just really lights me up instead of working more hours. You’ve gotta work smarter, not harder. And prioritization here is crucial. So important. You’ve gotta know what is actually the most important task to get done today.

What are my top two or three items? Because you will get so like swamped by every crisis, every slack message that pops up, every email that comes your way there, everything is coming at you. Even an idea in your own brain. I’ve had situations where it’s like, I have this great idea and creativity and I wanna work on this right now, but that is not the thing that I need to be doing getting done today.

So I have learned over time with having my own business that I have to say, well, what am I focusing on for today? What am I focusing on this week? What am I focusing on this quarter? Those types of questions are really gonna help, you know, because the reality is, is that everything else is fluff, and if you have time to work on fluff.

That’s great or it is a crisis and sometimes you have to deal with the crises when they come up, but sometimes they’re not really a crisis. They’re just, someone thinks they’re having a crisis right now and needs to be put off till later. So it just really depends. You have to evaluate some of those things, but you can get super distracted and switching gears.

Is very taxing on your brain. That’s one thing that you need to know. If you are constantly moving from task A to task B, to task C, and then back to B, and then tomorrow morning it’s like, oh, where do I even start? Which thing do I need to work on? That is not good for your brain. It creates a mental drain.

So if you are able to stay in one lane, really dig in and focus on something, you are going to feel so much better and be so much more productive, and that’s part of the working smarter. Not harder. When you do that, you are able to prioritize output over any amount of hours. So it’s not necessarily about the number of hours that you’re working, it’s what is the actual product that you’re coming out with on the other side, and recognizing that if you are getting a salary, you are getting paid for that output, not the number of hours.

Number three is I have to do it perfectly. I have been subject to this one in the past. I probably told you guys before, I would consider myself a recovering perfectionist, and what happens when you have perfectionism is that mistakes feel super intolerable. You go, I cannot make a mistake and understand that perfection.

It’s an impossible standard. It can lead an OCD to a lot of checking, a lot of rechecking. It can lead to paralysis where you just sit there and don’t do anything because you feel like you’re gonna mess it up and you can’t do it perfectly, or it will leave you saying, well, I need more information before I even start on this.

That’s not always the case. Sometimes it is the case where we say, okay, I really don’t know how to do this. I need to talk to somebody else, get some training, get in the weeds and figure it out. But a lot of times we do know how to do it. We just know it’s gonna be messy in the process. You’ve gotta get in there, you gotta be a little messy, and things that are not perfect can still be effective and still be very helpful for people.

So get in there and do the thing and stop telling yourself it has to be perfect. Number four, no one can do it like I can. I have been guilty of this one as well. Now, if you are in a position where you’ve moved up in your company and there are certain tasks maybe that you used to do, but now you don’t need to do them anymore because you have delegated them to someone below you to an assistant, there’s probably things that you don’t need to be doing anymore, but you’ve held onto them because you feel like.

No one is gonna do this with the same excellence that I can do it. And what I’ve learned over time from working with different assistants and working with different contractors, I’ve had to say, you know what? I can train people with expectations. I can share a video with them. I can like screen record what I’m doing and let them see that I can provide written instructions.

Depending on the person, they may prefer one over the other. Some people are like, Hey, I need the visual. I need you to show me exactly what you’re wanting. Other people, they do just fine with going into the file and reading about it and then implementing things step by step. Some things you may have to break down into smaller steps than other things, and that’s okay.

Sometimes we have to do less. In order to do more, and that is a tough concept really to wrap your mind around. That goes back to prioritization, but also delegation. Fifth belief that’ll keep you stuck is other people around me are working more hours than I am. And there’s a very short phrase that I say to that, let them, you are running your own race with this company.

It is between you and your boss, how your work is going and because oftentimes you’ll be getting feedback from various people throughout your company, maybe people next to you, maybe even people that are below you, whatever kind of feedback you’re getting. You wanna make sure that you are providing the company with the role and the job if you are fulfilling your job description?

That’s a good question to ask yourself, am I fulfilling the job description that is required of my role that I was hired on to do? Now if people way above you are sending emails at 2:00 AM that doesn’t mean that you have to. If Joe next to you is answering his slack on the weekends, you don’t have to let them.

You are in a place. I hope that if you are listening to this podcast that you are pursuing physical, mental, and spiritual health. And if they are not doing that because they’re engaging in some of these types of behaviors. Then that is on them, and you want to be in a healthy place and there is nothing worse than being stuck, not being able to make progress in your OCD recovery because you have all these other things that are not properly boundaried in your life.

This idea that other people are working more hours than me, it’s interesting. It’s almost like we’ve created this, keeping up with the Joneses. Uh, situation in the work department. Now, if you’re not familiar with that phrase, it’s kind of this idea that if the Joneses live next door and they get a new car, then you’re like, oh, well, wow, their car looks nicer than mine, and maybe I need a new car too.

I’m not sure. Or if your neighbor gets a pool, then you’re like, Ooh, I want a pool. That sounds like a good idea. And if other people around you are working more than you, you don’t have to keep up with them. It is quite okay. Are you doing your job? Are you pleasing God with your work? Are you pleasing your boss at some level with your work?

Then move on. Number six, I’m receiving a lot of pressure from a variety of places. Therefore, I must figure out a way to do more. Now, I have talked with many different people who are experiencing this. The line from their job is essentially something to, Hey, we’ve gotta be all hands on deck here. We’ve gotta work together, we’ve gotta get this done.

And it’s not just like we’ve gotta get this done. It’s like some kind of crises. Oh gosh, we’ve gotta get this done like yesterday. And it’s imperative. And like, hurry up and if you need to work more hours, work more hours. Like we gotta get it together now. Pressure does not produce better performance. So this is a problem if you have somebody over you going just micromanaging you to the hilt or constantly saying like, what are you doing?

Why is this taking so long? That is not really gonna motivate you to work any faster or harder other than it is gonna make you more stressed, which goes back to when we’re more stressed, we don’t think as clearly, and we’re more likely to make mistakes. Then our brain isn’t getting that space to rejuvenate and refresh, et cetera, et cetera.

Number seven, belief that will keep you stuck is I am going to get fired. I have heard this from so many different people, and I would say, I would encourage you to evaluate, are you actually in danger of getting fired now? Have you been written up? Have you been reprimanded? Have you been told that if you don’t work a certain number of hours on this thing, you’re going to be written up?

That may or may not be the case in your scenario at your company. I’ve not actually ever heard anybody tell me that it’s just this very vague pressure to work more hours because other people are working more hours or because. We’re all stressed that this thing needs to get done. Whatever the thing is Now, is that fear coming from an imagined scenario in your mind because OCD really likes to spin stories about you getting fired and next thing you know you’re homeless and you’re on the street and begging for quarters or something like that.

And I know it’s completely irrational, but that’s just how OCD is. It will take you down like this really long trail. It’s irrational for many of the people that I talk to because they have some level of either education or training or combination of both or tons of experience in what they’re doing.

But OCD will still convince them that they’re gonna get fired and be homeless, and it’s. Completely irrational. So just know that that is coming from some feared version that OCD has convinced you that you’re going to become. It is not coming from actual reality unless you are at your employer and they have put you on some kind of remediation plan.

They have warned you about firing. When I talk with people about this, it’s interesting because OCD has this way of course of going into all or nothing thinking. We just had an episode on overcoming all or nothing thinking. So go back and listen to that one if you missed it. But people will then say, well, maybe I should just quit my job then, or maybe I should just get another job.

Here’s the deal. You can do that. Of course, it’s always an option, but just remember that you are taking you into the next job. And so if you have poor work-life boundaries, if you have poor stress management, if you have poor self-care, just remember you are taking that person into the next company that you will be working at.

There are great opportunities for you right here and now to work on having better work-life balance. So in order to do that, let’s adopt some new beliefs about work. How about it? Number one, work is my job, not my life. So many people have this messed up work is supposed to fuel your personal life. It’s supposed to be the vehicle that provides a living wage so that you can go home, that you can relax.

At the end of the day, you can spend time with your family that you can maybe go on a vacation. Some of you don’t have time for ministry in your church because you are working entirely too much that’s rubbing up against a value. You don’t like it, but you’re not sure how to change it. So remember, work is supposed to fuel your personal life.

Work is not your life. Number two, it is my responsibility to set and keep boundaries with my employer. That’s a new idea for some of you, but it is not their job to create work-life balance for you. It’s your job. Now, I wish that companies were healthier. I wish that they would encourage their employees to have work-life balance to take time off to care for themselves in really great ways.

And there may be companies out there that are doing that, but many are not. And it’s unfortunate that there are many toxic workplaces out there now. So welcome to it. It’s time to stop constantly checking your work email. Take it off your phone. Some of you just gassed right now. Some of you just were shocked when I said that.

Block the work apps at a certain time. Do what you need to do. If you are working for a greedy, toxic company that is going to work people to the bone and all they care about is making money and getting the job done, just know that if you aren’t there, they’ll replace you with somebody else. They’re not valuing you at that point.

They’re just valuing having a person in your position, and there’s a big difference there. It’s time to talk with people about cutting out the fluffy meetings that could have been an email. People waste so much time in companies in worthless meetings that don’t need to happen or that need to be prioritized.

Much more short, concise, and to the point. Here’s why we’re doing it. Let’s discuss for 10 minutes and move on. It’s time to possibly help show that the job can get done and without massive amount of hours, over 40 hours, you may need to have a scary conversation with your. Something to the effect of, Hey, I know I’ve been working a ton and I’m noticing that’s not really helping us things along any faster.

And I’ve noticed that I actually do better when I’m able to have time to take care of myself, to rest, to have time, to have this work-life balance that I want, and I’m happy to get this job done efficiently and effectively. In order to do that, here’s what I need from you. I need some carved out time to really focus in on something without getting interrupted.

If that’s what you’re needing, can I take myself off the work messenger on Tuesday from two to four so that I can really dive into project to be? Would that be okay with you? Maybe you need more help in your position and you’re saying, Hey, there’s a limit to how much I can get done that you’re throwing at me.

Can I have an assistant? Is there somebody else that might be able to pick up this task over here that’s dragging me down and taking a lot of time away from other things that you might deem are more important for me to focus on? And those are conversations that are worth having. And they might say no, like, well, no, you’re not getting any other help.

Okay. And then. At least you asked, at least you were assertive, and put yourself out there and you kind of know where they’re at. But if you never asked, you are not gonna know if you possibly could get more help. Now, a really good company is going to want to keep their employees. It takes a lot of money to go through all this searching and hiring and onboarding and training, and blah, blah, blah.

And good companies are gonna wanna keep their employees relatively happy to the best of their ability because here’s a news flash. People who are happy and enjoy their work are not burnt out. They actually are the best producing employees and they’re who you wanna keep around and have on your cheap.

Understand if you are working towards OCD recovery right now. I’ve talked about this ad nauseum, I’m sure OCD thrives in really stressful environments, and I see many people who are not managing their stress well, and they’re coming to me and saying, Hey, I need some help with my OCD, and I’m responding to them, Hey, I’d love to help you with your OCD, but until you get your stress.

To a more manageable level. It’s gonna be really hard for us to make progress. It’s gonna be really hard for you to absorb and apply the ICBT information to your life or to dig into trauma therapy or whatever it is they’re needing to do. It’s gonna be super hard if they’re stressed out the max, and I would say pretty much impossible in many cases.

This is something we have to work on. Even just from a very baseline eating, sleeping, breathing, having times of rest, taking a Sabbath. These are all really great foundational building blocks. And if you haven’t already built into your OCD recovery process, please make sure that you are doing that. This episode is very near and dear to me because I have been burnout in my work in the past.

I have been the person stuck working too many hours, and sometimes that has been of my own doing, not because anybody else wanted me to work that many hours. I’ve not always been the person who worked smarter. I definitely worked in a way that was discombobulated and not helpful to me. Were the people that I was serving.

If this is something that you’re struggling with or you know somebody else that is stuck working too much, I hope that you’ll share this episode with them for a little support, hope, and encouragement. You can make changes in these areas and may feel really daunting and may feel hard. It may make you feel super anxious and sick to say something to your workplace, but continue to work on this.

Pray about it. God will give you wisdom and lead you and guide you in the right path. So thanks so much for listening today. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

188. Stop Fighting Reality: How Radical Acceptance Might be the Key

Written by Carrie Bock on August 27, 2025. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie goes “off script” to explore a Dialectical Behavioral Therapy skill—radical acceptance—and why it’s a powerful tool for Christians navigating OCD, grief, and life’s hard realities.

Episode Highlights

What radical acceptance really means—and what it doesn’t.

How fighting reality keeps you emotionally stuck (and what to do instead).
Biblical perspectives on suffering and endurance from James 1, Romans 5, and Romans 8:28.
Practical ways to sit with and move through pain without falling into denial or despair.
How DBT skills can support OCD recovery and deepen faith-based coping.

Episode Summary

Today, I’m stepping outside our usual conversations on Christian concepts and OCD treatment to share a tool from Dialectical Behavioral Therapy that has been life-changing for me and my clients—radical acceptance. This is not about throwing in the towel or resigning yourself to hopelessness. Instead, it’s about fully acknowledging the reality of your situation, even when it’s painful, unfair, or confusing, so you can stop wasting energy on what’s outside your control and start moving forward in ways that honor God and protect your emotional health.

In this episode, I’ll share how radical acceptance has helped me through my own grief, losses, and frustrating situations, and why learning to sit with reality is so powerful for OCD recovery. We’ll talk about what scripture says about suffering—how God uses it to shape perseverance, character, and hope—and why embracing “what is” can actually free you to experience more peace, compassion, and resilience. I’ll also walk you through practical ways to apply this skill in your day-to-day life, whether you’re dealing with intrusive thoughts, relationship struggles, job loss, or deep grief.

If you’ve been feeling stuck, angry, or overwhelmed—caught in a cycle of wishing things were different—this episode will give you tools and encouragement to release that fight, trust God’s bigger plan, and take the next right step.

Tune into the full episode to discover how radical acceptance can help you stop battling reality and start walking in the present, abundant life God has for you.

Transcript

We’re gonna go a little off script today. Welcome to the podcast. Normally we’re talking about Christian concepts, or we’re talking about OCD treatment, like an inference based cognitive behavioral therapy, or IC bt. Today I wanna borrow something from the playbook of DBT or Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.

This concept is called radical acceptance, and it really is the key for you to stop fighting reality. So I want to talk about that today.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bach. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing [00:01:00] greater peace.

We can spend so much time and energy, even as Christians running from suffering. And there’s a difference between suffering that we cause ourselves because of sin. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m just talking about life suffering that happens in the world. We get sick, a loved one gets sick, people die.

We experience something tragic. We lose a job. All of these things that are just different life sufferings that we experience at one time or another. We run from that and the emotions connected to it, but we forget that God wants to meet us in the midst of that [00:02:00] suffering. Not only does he wanna meet us in the midst of that, but he wants to grow us and develop perseverance and character and hope.

If you look at James chapter one or Romans five. These are chapters that talk about God using our suffering for good, and that we should actually rejoice in our sufferings, glory in our sufferings. Those are big words and oftentimes things that we don’t embrace. I guess who wants to suffer? It doesn’t feel good at the time, but we know that God is using it to produce fruit, and that is why we can endure, even if we don’t fully understand it right now, we can accept hard things that happen to us as Christians because we know that God has a bigger and greater plan for our lives and for other people’s lives.

Romans 8 28. We know that all things work together for good, for those who love God and who are called according to his [00:03:00] purpose. I wanna be clear about what radical acceptance is not. Radical acceptance is not laying down and saying, oh, well, this is awful. I’m a victim. Things aren’t ever going to get better, and I just have to accept it.

No, absolutely not What we’re saying, we’re saying that life happens and hard things happen. But when we acknowledge that, it actually empowers us in a way to do something positive. I think that this is so crucial because we can get stuck in a negative thought loop and it could be a negative thought loop.

That’s absolutely true. I’d like to give you an example of where I saw this recently. I was talking with a client and she was just telling me about how wrong this person had treated her and how that wasn’t good, and this is why. And I was just like, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think you’re right. I don’t think that person should have treated you that way.

However they did [00:04:00] and like because they did. We have to sit with that reality. There was so much energy going into trying to change the other person. Well, maybe if I do this, maybe if I just explain it a different way, maybe if I cry, maybe if I tell them how I really feel, then they will change their mind.

The short story is that it just wasn’t working. What it was doing was continuing to keep that person stuck. In a high level of anger, in a high level of emotional distress, and often on ongoing conflict that they didn’t want to be in with another person, all because they were essentially fighting what was and what was actually in their control versus what was completely outside of their control.

How to know if you’re fighting reality and needing radical acceptance. Well, what that looks like basically is that you’re stuck. You’re stuck in emotions, you’re [00:05:00] stuck thinking the same things over and over again. You’re stuck, really hurt, really angry, really depressed, can’t move forward, can’t seem to make a change, even positive change that you feel like you know that you need to make.

Essentially what radical acceptance tells us is that whether we like it or not, everything kind of has led up to this point that this is actually what’s going on right now. And so we need to be able to deal with the reality of what’s happening, even when we don’t like it, even when we feel like it should be different and it shouldn’t be this way.

I can tell you so many different examples from my own life of it shouldn’t be this way. I shouldn’t have lost my mother at the age of 40, but I did. I can either choose to live in that denial and say, this is not fair. It’s not right. I hate cancer. Why God, A, allow this to happen? I can’t [00:06:00] believe this. This is so ridiculous.

I’m mad at that doctor because he did this. I’m mad at this person because they didn’t intervene here. I could just really, really get wrapped up in all of those different things and. Be really stuck in a bad bed place. And there were some things that happened in the course of my mom being in the hospital, and doctors and I got into an argument with one of the doctors because some things just weren’t right in the way that they were treating her.

But that’s the reality that I had to live with and try to figure out how to navigate at that moment. And I’m still figuring out the reality of what it’s like to have life without my mom here on this earth. There’s a level of denial that can keep us out of emotional pain, but it never helps us in terms of being able to tolerate the distress of the moment.

When I was going through grief and loss about 10 years ago, I was reading this book and it was talking about the importance of really saying [00:07:00] to yourself and sitting with the fact that. Your loved one has died, or sometimes loss is not always that somebody has died. Sometimes loss is just loss of a job opportunity.

Hey, I wasn’t selected for my dream job and now I have to really sit with that. And it’s hard, but it’s okay to feel sad and it’s okay to cry the tears, and it’s okay to be angry at times. We have to learn that all of those emotions are God-given emotions. We have to learn how to cope with in a healthy way.

But if we’re stuck in an emotion, then we’re not able to move through it. And sometimes really sitting with this radical acceptance of saying, okay, this is where I’m at right now, and that really stinks and that’s really hard and I don’t like it. Now, what do I do to take care of myself? What is the next best choice that I can [00:08:00] make?

So if this person has hurt me and has wronged me, then I need to acknowledge that I need to break through that. I need to be able to get to a place of forgiveness. Peace on the other side as I’m recording this, I think this is as much for me as it is for everyone else because I’m dealing with a situation right now that is completely outside of my control, and that’s super hard because a lot of things in my world are in my control.

I work for myself. I decide who I’m gonna work with. I have so much freedom. And then when I rub up against things where I don’t have the freedom, or I’m having to wait for other people, or I’m having to trust other people that are gonna do the things that they say that they’re going to do, it can be super hard and frustrating when they don’t follow through and when they don’t do the things that they say that they’re going to do.

That can be really irritating to me. So I’m [00:09:00] working through this on my own as well. Just saying, okay, well I can’t go back and change the past. I think that’s another one that radical acceptance is helpful for. I can’t go back and change anything, so maybe I would’ve made different decisions. Knowing what I know now, but I didn’t know that back then.

And so I need to open up the door to self-compassion and say, you know what, yeah, if I could do this all over again, or if I was telling somebody else in a similar situation, I tell them to do A instead of B, which is what I did, but none of us have the opportunity to go back and fix anything or change anything.

We are where we are right now. Even if it means, Hey, I messed something up and I made a bad choice. Okay, what’s the next right choice? Then? What can you do? Can you go apologize to somebody? Is there something that you can do to make it right? Maybe there’s not, sometimes there’s just not anything that we can do to fix something other than to say sorry, [00:10:00] and to agree that we’re gonna work hard next time, not to make that same mistake.

Also, knowing that we are human. We have talked about mindfulness on the show, but acceptance is a part of mindfulness. There’s awareness. And then there’s acceptance. Sometimes we’re super aware of what’s going on, but we’re not accepting it. We say, I don’t like that. I don’t want that. Even in a sense of dealing with your intrusive thoughts, it’s like, ah, I just wish all of this would just go away and I could wave a magic wand.

Well, unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way. And then things maybe are less stressful in your life and OCD starts to get a little bit better and you’re like, oh yeah, maybe this is going away. And then bam, something stressful hits and you’re back to it. Or your theme completely shifts. You’re like, okay, I was working through this theme.

I am feeling better. I’m not as bothered by that anymore. And then something completely new hits, and you’re thrown off guard and it feels like you’ve lost all your skills that you may have learned. That’s not true. They’re still in [00:11:00] there. You could still apply them to this new theme, but it’s just really hard ’cause now it’s something different that you’re having to deal with.

Even just being able to accept the mental health diagnosis of OCD, the fact that it’s a chronic condition, the fact that it waxes and wanes under stress. These are some radical acceptance pieces that you need to be able to come to and sit with as you’re navigating this diagnosis. Some of that can be really hard and you may have to grieve some of it.

Some of it you may just have to sit there for a moment and cry and say, I wish I didn’t have to deal with this. It’s okay to acknowledge that, but then also to say, okay, but I am dealing with this. This is hard. I don’t want it. I didn’t ask for it, but I can make a choice to put one foot in front of the other to embrace recovery today.

To say, what does that look like for me? What is my next step on my journey? And one of the reasons that [00:12:00] mindfulness helps us with distress tolerance is that we learn to take a pause and to sit with some of these things instead of what we normally do to deal with our emotions. Whether that’s distract yourself, scrolling on your phone, putting a podcast on or TV on, or just anything else to drown out the noise of the emotion of the sensation.

Of the thought process and distraction still sometimes can be very helpful. That may be a first step if the emotion is just too huge or too overwhelming for you. But then as you move forward, there needs to be some time where you’re able to say, you know what? I can sit with this. I can feel this and I can allow that emotion to kind of come like a wave and know that it’s gonna go up and then come down, and then I will be able to get to a place where I can take care of myself and feel better.

That might look like developing in some exercise coping skills, or breathing [00:13:00] exercises, or journaling or talking to a friend. When you’re having a hard day, there’s so many different things that you can do to care for your emotional experience. But if we aren’t acknowledging where we’re at, that has to be the first step to be able to move forward.

One of the things that really stood out to me about the I-O-C-D-F conference was how much discussions surrounded this tendency to avoid emotions were to have difficulty dealing with the distress of them, how that interplays with OCD quite a bit. While also recognizing that sometimes these DBT skills, like radical acceptance, self-soothing skills, distress tolerance skills, interpersonal skills, how all of these things can be incorporated into OCD treatment.

Not to necessarily attack the OCD directly, but to help you work through the process in a [00:14:00] way that’s really healthy as like. Looking at it from a whole person lens in terms of what you might need in your day-to-day life to cope with the things that come up for all of us. Relationship challenges, job challenges, conflicts hurt, pain, anger, sadness.

You may not have grown up in a family system where these things were allowed to be openly expressed or explored, and if they weren’t allowed to be expressed, then you certainly weren’t taught how to cope with them when they come up. So when those emotional experiences come up, they can feel really big and it just makes you wanna shut everything down.

Or it gets channeled into another emotional state. So if anger wasn’t something that you were ever comfortable with, holding that in can either turn that into depression or anxiety. For some people, suppressed sadness may also look similar. It may turn into anxiety or depression, or that suppressed [00:15:00] sadness may actually come out as anger towards others when you really don’t want it to.

I want to really encourage you to evaluate, based on today’s podcast, is there some area of my life where I feel stuck emotionally? Am I trying to change someone else’s behavior or am I becoming really frustrated that someone else isn’t changing? Is there a situation outside of my control that I’ve been unwilling to accept?

Have I become a prisoner of my own emotional experience because I’m fighting what’s actually happening in the present or what has already occurred in the past to get me to this present moment? Are there things. I need to release over to God and trust him with instead of trying to control them myself.

I hope that this episode has blessed you and if it has, please consider [00:16:00] sharing it with someone else who might need to hear this encouragement as well. If you’d like some weekly encouragement once a week when these episodes come out, you can subscribe to our email list@carriebach.com. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian faith in OCD is a production of by the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

187. Is it Time To Get a New Therapist?

Written by Carrie Bock on August 18, 2025. Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores how to recognize when it might be time to move on from your therapist. She unpacks both major red flags and quieter signs that the fit isn’t right, offering practical, faith-based insight for clients, loved ones, and fellow professionals.

Episode Highlights:

What red flags signal it’s time to immediately leave and report a therapist
Why dual relationships and boundary violations matter in Christian therapy
How to assess if your therapist’s approach or personality is a good fit for you
The role of faith alignment in the therapeutic relationship
Why it’s okay to switch therapists, even if you’ve grown close to them

Episode Summary:

Welcome back OCD Warriors, friends and family members, and any therapist who might be tuning in. In today’s episode, I’m diving into something that comes up more often than you might think—how to tell when it’s time to switch therapists. If you’ve been feeling stuck, second-guessing your progress, or wondering whether your therapist really understands your faith or your OCD, you are not alone. This is something I hear from clients and listeners all the time, especially those navigating OCD from a Christian perspective. We’re going to break it down together.

I’ll walk you through the clear red flags that signal it’s time to leave—things like blurred boundaries, ethical concerns, or confidentiality issues. But we’ll also talk about subtle yellow flags that are easy to dismiss but still matter. Maybe you don’t feel emotionally safe in sessions. Maybe your therapist seems supportive but doesn’t really understand the spiritual weight of scrupulosity or the compulsions tied to fear of sin, hell, or salvation. Or maybe you’ve outgrown their approach, and you’re ready for someone trained in ERP or ICBT, which are evidence-based methods proven to treat OCD effectively.

Therapy is deeply personal, and it’s okay to outgrow a therapist or need a different approach as your healing continues. You’re not failing, and you’re not being disloyal—sometimes the bravest thing is recognizing when it’s time for a change. So tune in to this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, and let’s walk through this decision together with clarity, grace, and a little courage too.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

Finding a Therapist is a whole topic with it itself, and we’ve done a show on that before, so we’ll link that in the show notes. Today we’re talking about when is it time to say goodbye. Maybe you found somebody, but you’re really not seeing the progress and the momentum that you’re wanting. Maybe you found somebody and things just aren’t going right.

So I want to give you some very practical guidelines on how to help you make that decision of, is it time to get a new therapist? The first thing we’re gonna talk about are the immediate red flags. This is like, okay, it is definitely time to pull the plug and find somebody else. Not only that, but it’s also time to report them to your state’s board so that they can investigate further and you can potentially protect someone else from going through what you went through.

The biggest red flag would be if your therapist is. Impaired in some way, like by alcohol, drugs. No one is immune to addiction just because of their profession. Another red flag would be if your therapist hits on you, either subtly or overtly, they’re flirting with you. They’re trying to have any kind of dating or sexual relationship with you.

This is completely inappropriate and should not happen. Doesn’t matter if you feel like you’re flirting with your therapist. Trust me, it happens. And unfortunately in our field, it also does happen at times where therapists sleep with their clients. This is completely unethical and inappropriate. So please, if that has happened to you.

One, I am very sorry, but two, please report that individual to the state board. And of course, I’m speaking from the perspective of a licensed professional counselor that there are certain ethics we have to apply by. That may depend a little bit or be slightly different based on your therapist’s licensure.

Another thing we are not allowed to do is have what’s called a dual relationship with our clients. So your therapist shouldn’t be asking you to go into business with them. They shouldn’t be asking you to volunteer for a fundraiser they are hosting. Your therapist shouldn’t be friending you on social media.

It shouldn’t be recruiting you for their small group. Now, sometimes in certain rural areas or places where obviously there’s a lot less people and less therapists, you may have some dual relationships or they may be considered appropriate based on the circumstances. For example, you might not be able to help but running into clients at the baseball field or clients at church.

I would say it depends on the size of your church. If you go to a very large church or a mega type church and your therapist goes there, that’s not necessarily a conflict of interest as long as you guys aren’t going on the same mission trip together where it’s like a group of 10 people or. Being in the same small group together, something like that, where you’re going to have very close relationship ties that are outside of the therapy room.

And the reason for that is that all other kinds of emotions now get involved that are gonna affect your professional relationship. Whether we like it or not, the therapy relationship is imbalanced, that we are in a position of authority, and with that authority comes some level of power. We have to be cautious about dual relationships, even things like going to weddings or funerals.

Your therapist should not be initiating greeting you outside of the therapy room. So if you run into your therapist at Walmart, you can say hello to them, but we really can’t initiate that conversation or interaction if there’s other people around. It always begs the question of, well, how do you know that person?

Right? That’s what you’re wondering, like, oh, how do you know that person? Well, my husband already knows like not to ask me that question. It’s not something that happens a whole lot that I would run into clients, especially now because I see a lot of people across the state online, but it has happened and we just have to handle it in a professional sense and respecting people’s privacy and confidentiality.

Violating confidentiality would be a red flag if your therapist is talking to your mother or. Your best friend or someone else, anyone else, doesn’t matter who it is about what’s happening in therapy and you haven’t signed a release of information so that you can talk to that person. That is a violation of confidentiality.

Confidentiality, of course, has its limits. When you report things like child abuse or elder abuse, we have to report those things, and if you say you’re gonna harm yourself or someone else, you have plans and intentions to do such things. Not just like I’m having a passing thought, but I’m really going to act on this.

Obviously we have to report those things. Many of the things that I just went over as red flags are typically contained in your therapist informed consent document that you signed when you initiate therapy. This helps us all be on the same page, like I have a section in there where I explain that people should not come find me on social media, should not try to friend me even on something like LinkedIn.

Sometimes I think people see that as kind of innocent. Oh, it’s a professional connection, but I still don’t friend clients on those types of sites either. Informed consent documents will also explain things like the limits of confidentiality, as well as things like the training your therapist has. Their therapeutic approaches that they must align with.

I think it’s really important to go over these red flags because I have talked with clients before and I think sometimes they’re unaware that some of these things are a red flag. Now, everything that I mentioned from here on out, it’s gonna be a little bit more of a yellow flag. It’s not like run for the door.

Stops a therapeutic relationship and report them to the board. It’s not gonna be like that, but it’s probably why most of you tuned into this episode. I’m having these questions and I’m really just wondering if, is this house therapy is supposed to go? I’m not really sure. I think the main reason that people leave a therapist is because they’re not feeling like they’re getting what they’re needing.

That would be a great example, but before you just leave, I would want to encourage you to communicate that with your therapist. Sometimes we’ll have people that feel like, oh, I’m just not making progress. Like they’re super hard on themselves and we can really go back and trace and say, okay, I hear you say that you’re not making progress.

I remember last week you came in and you said you handled that X situation totally differently than you would have six months ago or a year ago. Okay, so if you don’t feel like you’re making progress, do we need to try a different therapeutic approach? That might be something that I know how to do and it might be something that I refer someone out for.

I’ve had people that just absolutely did not want to do parts work and I really felt like that was gonna be most beneficial for them, and we just ended up parting ways and that’s okay. Like it’s totally an okay and normal thing. If your therapist isn’t able to offer something that you’re wanting, or if you feel like after going for a little while that their particular modalities aren’t a good fit for you.

It’s totally okay to communicate that therapists vary quite a bit in their levels of directiveness. Some therapists are pretty direct. I would say that I fit into that category and some therapists kind of just let you talk and allow you to process and figure things out for yourself. Ideally, we want to know if someone is gonna be a good fit for us as the therapist before we see them initially, or sometimes people will do phone consultations.

It just depends a lot on that therapist. I have a ton of information about me. Online and via my website through my podcast. So people pretty much know what they’re getting when they come to see me typically. But for other therapists, they don’t have as much information out there online or their website’s kind of sparse.

Some of ’em do free 15 minute phone consultations where you can just talk back and forth about what your needs are. That’s just a time for the therapist to tell you a little bit about how they work for you to ask for what you need. And I think sometimes in the beginning. From the client side, it may be really hard to know what you need.

You may just say, Hey, I just feel a bit of a mess and I need someone to talk with and evaluate what I’m going through and provide some guidance about my next steps. Just like with anything else, the more that you do something, the more you start to get in touch with what feels good, what doesn’t feel good, and that can give you some indication about.

What your needs are in therapy. So I’ve had people come to see me who were seeing a much less directive type therapist who say, I went to go see somebody, and they just kind of, they nodded their head and they never really gave me a whole lot of feedback or a whole lot of guidance. I didn’t get specific skills on how to handle situations.

And because they went through that experience, they then knew, Hey, for the next person, I want somebody who’s going to be much more. Hands-on directive. Hey, here’s what you do in this situation. Type feedback. If you find that you’re in a therapeutic relationship and it just doesn’t seem like a good fit where you don’t really feel like you’re getting what you’re eating, just know that it’s okay.

It doesn’t mean that you’re bad. It doesn’t mean that the therapist is bad. They might be a really nice person. You might be a really nice person, and it just might be one of those trying to fit the square peg in the round hole. I think what most people do at that point is they tend to ghost us and leave.

However, what I would encourage you to do is to go to your therapist and to say something just doesn’t feel right here, or something doesn’t feel like it’s working. If you are able to articulate what that is, then you guys can kind of make a determination if you can switch gears or not, or if it’s better for you to move on and see somebody else.

Feedback is super helpful in any relationship, but therapy is actually just a gigantic feedback loop if you think about it. You come into the therapist’s office, you talk through some things that therapists may provide some type of guidance, or through the process of talking through things, you may develop some insight about what your next step is.

You go, oh, okay, well this makes sense as my next step. You go out into the world and you try it. Then you come back a week later and you say, Hey, this really worked for me. This didn’t work for me. Hey, I got stuck at this point. What do I do now? And you continue to refine that process over time. One example of a yellow flag would be if you just don’t feel particularly safe with your therapist emotionally.

Maybe you feel like you’re talking about certain things and they just don’t seem to understand where you’re coming from. You don’t get that feel or really deep sense of empathy and validation for what you’re experiencing. I had someone recently describe to me a therapist as just feeling kind of cold to them.

Now that therapist may not be cold, but that was that person’s perception. Sometimes people might cure, but not really be as expressive as you need or know how to express themselves in that way. Now, what I’m about to say is a broad overgeneralization about OCD therapists, so know that they’re not all like this.

My experience has been with several OCD therapists or that specialize in this area. Some of them tend to be highly clinical, highly research based, highly intellectual, over emotional, and if you are a highly sensitive client who has a high experience of emotion, and you get connected or sitting down with someone who’s more.

In a very professional and less personable realm that might not feel good to you. Now, as I said, not all OCD therapists are like this. We had Judy Lair comes to mind on the show, and even though she does ERP, she’s very playful. She’s a fun person. She’s energetic. She doesn’t fit that stereotype. And I know other people that we’ve had on the show don’t fit that stereotype, but there are some people in the OCD therapy community that are pretty straight laced, and to some people they may come across as cold.

Now to other people, they may come across as professional intellectuals, and that’s exactly what they’re looking for. What we’re really talking about here is that it comes down to personal preference. Personal preference when it comes to therapy is not wrong. So if you don’t feel a connection to your therapist, don’t walk away and think, oh, it must be something about me, like that must be my fault.

No, you are not meant to gel with every single person on the planet. We are called to love people and we are called to care about people and treat them well, but some people we’re just gonna have more of a connection or initial click with than others. A yellow flag for you might be if a therapist doesn’t understand, empathize, or respect your values.

So I’ve also heard feedback from other people I’ve talked with through the podcast who feel like, you know what? I am seeing this counselor. They’re very knowledgeable about OCD, but they just really don’t understand my faith. They don’t understand how the faith is interacting with the OCD. I’ve even had people say things like, I just felt like my therapist wasn’t taking concepts like hell seriously enough.

And obviously that’s problematic. I don’t think that you have to experience everything that somebody else has experienced in order to be able to empathize with them. I think there can be situations where you can see a secular counselor and feel like your faith is respected or feel like they can at least empathize even though they don’t, they might not share your same faith, however.

There are other clients who definitely would say, Hey, I feel so much more comfortable seeing somebody who is a strong Christian and who I know shares my faith. And obviously that’s why a lot of people end up seeing me is because I’m very open about my faith on my website and through this podcast. I think we’re so much more likely to progress and feel better if we feel like our therapist is aligned with us and fully empathetic of our value system.

If you have a relationship with Christ, that should affect everything, including your therapeutic relationship in some way, shape, or form. Now, let’s assume that you have a good relationship with your therapist. You feel like you’re on the same page, you feel like you have a good gel and a good working relationship, good communication.

However you feel like whatever their approach is towards your OCD, that it’s just not working. Maybe they’re not addressing your OCD and that has become a. Bigger problem in your world. So you might have gone to therapy for relationship issues and maybe the OCD wasn’t as big of a deal, or you went for some particular trauma and now the trauma has been treated and the OCD is still there.

We’re complex, right? And as life changes and things happen. We may grow and change in different ways, and you may have, for lack of a better way to say it, outgrown what your therapist is able to give you, and that is okay as well. Maybe they were a very key figure in your life of helping you walk through that trauma, walking through grief and loss, walking through relationship heartache, and now you’re at a place where you need somebody that’s more specialized in working with OCD.

It really frustrates me to no end and makes me want to internally scream when I hear therapists talk about how effective the therapeutic relationship is towards change. Okay? Yes. When you are dealing with relationship issues, but know when you are dealing with specific mental health concerns like OCD.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of therapists running around out there who are saying that they treat OCD and they really don’t have an in-depth understanding and knowledge of how to treat OCD, or they may be able to treat somebody with a more mild case of OCD, but not a moderate to severe case of OCD.

It’s highly important that therapists are upfront in their marketing of what they have experience with and what they don’t. That is ethical as well. We can’t misrepresent ourselves. I would say don’t be afraid to ask questions. If you see someone that looks like they might be a good fit for you, and they say on their profile.

They work with OCDI would want to know, hey, about what percentage of your caseload are OCD clients or how many people do you think would you estimate that you’ve treated in the last five years with OCD? And we’re trying to find out is this handful of people that they’ve seen over the years, or is this a good chunk of their practice?

And if you have a moderate to severe case of OCD. That’s impacting you hours out of your day with obsessions and compulsions, you need to see a specialist. I don’t care how much you love your therapist and how much they’ve helped you through other things, if you’re gonna make progress in your OCD, you need to find somebody who’s doing ICBT or ERP in order to get the relief and results that you’re looking for.

Non-negotiable. A better relationship with your therapist is not going to resolve OCD. An additional yellow flag that I want to point out is that therapy should be more about you and what’s going on with you than it is about what’s going on with the therapist. So I’d like to discuss the issue of self-disclosure in therapy because unfortunately, many therapists in today’s day and age over utilize self-disclosure and it just drives me a little batty, like nails on a chalkboard.

You’re not supposed to come into therapy and you say something and then the therapist says something relatable like you’re at a friend having coffee. That’s not what therapy is designed for. It is really to be designed for what you are bringing in, what your needs are. The focus needs to be on you and not the therapist saying, Hey, when I went through that, this was how I dealt with it.

Unfortunately in my own therapeutic process, I’ve seen some people for one or two sessions where this was really a big issue and I just had to kind of get out of there. No matter what I’ve been through, I know it’s still not the same exact thing that my client is going through in their life. I might share something, but I’m also.

Cautious and hesitant to make sure that that’s gonna be appropriate and be most beneficial to the client, not just because I have something to share that would be relatable. I also bring this up because you might run into this with therapists who have shared experience with OCD. Depending on their professional background, and you have to decide also as a client what you feel most comfortable with.

I sit with people’s stuff on a regular basis, I think, and so when I go to therapy, I really don’t want to hear all about what the therapist has been through and how they’ve overcome certain things. I had a really great therapeutic relationship with somebody that hardly shared anything about herself.

And the day that she did, because she held back so much, the day that she did was only because I was like, no, you don’t understand this. We were in like a bit of an argument and I was like, you don’t get it. And she was like. I’ve been through this and that really helped me understand like, no, she did actually get it.

I think there are times where self-disclosure can be super powerful in therapy, but too many times in today’s day and age, it’s not. It’s more routine than a powerful, if you feel like your therapist spends a lot of time talking about themselves and you want to get away from that, that is your prerogative and you can.

Let’s say that you really love your therapist and you’ve made some good progress, but maybe it’s just time to get a different perspective, and I want you to know that that’s okay too. This reminds me of a client I had many years ago. I worked with her for a couple years, and it’s one of those situations where I’m like, oh, man, if I worked with that person now, I probably would’ve done some things differently.

We all have that right? But she was transitioning, I think, to a different job and was gonna have to change scheduling wise or wasn’t gonna be able to come in because of her job. And I had told her I would be happy to see you again. However, I also respect. Because we’ve done a lot of work together that if you just feel like you need a fresh set of eyes on your situation, then you are totally free to find somebody maybe with a little bit different perspective that might be able to give you something different and just know that that’s okay.

I think in this scenario, a lot of people don’t leave their therapist because it feels uncomfortable and they feel like. Oh, I really like this person and I want to keep doing this, but yet there’s this little bit of aching of, maybe there’s something more, maybe there’s a deeper level of healing that I can get to that I’m just not getting it from my current therapy situation.

I’ve talked about this before on the podcast for me personally, that there have been times where I specifically sought a male perspective, and that was super helpful for me. I’ve also had people go to individual weekly therapy for quite some time, or try EMDR in that context and come to me saying. You know what?

I think an intensive would really be a better fit for me because I’m going to have a longer time to really get into the trauma and get into the depths of my nervous system to be able to heal from this, and I just don’t think that once a week therapy is really getting me there where I need to be. I personally love doing deeper level work with clients.

I know that it can be so powerful and transformative. I wanna end by talking about what if your therapist recommends that you see someone different? We’ve talked about this a little bit earlier in the episode where I said. Your therapist may say, Hey, I see that you might need this particular modality that might be helpful for you, or It seems like maybe you need somebody a little less directive in my case or in somebody else’s case, a little more directive.

Just know that if that’s coming from your therapist, that I would hope that it’s coming from a good, compassionate place. Of them wanting to make sure that you’re getting what you need or if they say, Hey, OCD is not really my specialty, and I think you need to go see someone who has much more experience or works with more OCD clients than I do.

There’s two things that I’d want you to know in that situation. One is that’s a hard conversation for us as therapists because we know it can feel so rejecting to our clients. For us to be able to say, I think it’s time for you to move forward and pursue therapy with someone else. Even though it’s a hard conversation, it’s in your best interest because if I don’t feel like I can give you what you need, I wanna make sure that you can get connected with someone who can give you what you need.

So do your best to try not to take it as a personal rejection, or, oh, my therapist doesn’t want to work with me. I have in the past, often referred out clients who are dealing with some addiction issues. And that didn’t come to surface in the beginning. Or maybe they felt really uncomfortable and didn’t wanna share that they were struggling with an addiction.

Maybe they didn’t see it as a big deal. But then as we uncover things over time, we start to realize that that’s an issue. And that’s not something that I have a ton of training in. I have a little bit, but not enough to see someone who has a serious addiction issue, or if someone has a. Severe eating disorder, I’m gonna wanna make sure that they get appropriate treatment with someone who specializes in that type of care.

I see a lot of people who have disordered eating or maybe some more mild eating disorder characteristics that’s different. So if your therapist refers you out, just know that can be an incredibly loving thing for them to do, even though it’s probably gonna be hard on both of you because you have developed a relationship together.

Wherever you are in your therapeutic journey. I really hope that this conversation has been helpful for you and informative. You can reach out to me anytime @carriebock.com. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Christian Faith in OCD is a production of by the Well Counseling.

This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

186. Recognizing and Recovering From All or Nothing Thinking

Written by Carrie Bock on August 12, 2025. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores how to identify and overcome all-or-nothing thinking, a common challenge for those with OCD. She offers practical strategies for developing flexible thinking to foster peace and recovery.

Episode Highlights:

How to recognize all-or-nothing thinking in yourself.
Mindfulness exercises to help detach from obsessive thoughts.
The importance of taking different perspectives to break rigid thinking.
How asking “What if it went well?” can shift your mindset.
The power of embracing imperfection through trying new things.
Creative problem-solving techniques to help expand your thinking options.

Episode Summary:

Do you ever catch yourself thinking in extremes, like it’s all good or all bad—no in-between? That’s the all-or-nothing thinking I’m talking about today, and if you’ve got OCD, it’s something that can really keep you stuck.

When your mind gets stuck in these black-and-white patterns, it makes life feel a lot more overwhelming than it has to be. But you can break free from that cycle and train your brain to think more flexibly.

In this episode, I’m sharing how you can stop letting all-or-nothing thinking control your life. This type of thinking—where things feel like they’re either completely right or totally wrong.

Little by little, you can start developing more balanced thinking that brings more peace and clarity to your life.

I’ll guide you through some practical tools to help you observe your thoughts without judgment. I’ll also share five actionable strategies for developing more flexible thinking.

You’ll learn how taking a different perspective, practicing creative risk-taking, and simply rethinking how you approach life’s challenges can help loosen the grip of that all-or-nothing mindset. The idea is to help you embrace a mindset that’s not about perfection, but about growth, flexibility, and acceptance.

If you’re ready to break free from the cycle of rigid thinking and take control of your mental space, listen to the full episode now!

Transcript

Today on the podcast we’re talking about recognizing and recovering from all or nothing thinking. This is very common in OCD, and so I want you to learn how to think more flexibly.

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you.

So let’s dive right into today’s episode. If you’re gonna learn to think more flexibly, first of all, you have to recognize when you’re in all or nothing thinking. Oftentimes, people who struggle with OCD will think in terms of extremes. There’s only one way I can think about this and everything else is wrong, or it just feels like this is true, even though I know it’s not.

It’s something that’s really, really stuck in your mind. So if we can practice different ways of being with your thoughts and different ways of approaching various life circumstances and problem solving. That will help your thinking to become more flexible over time. This will allow you to take different perspectives.

Mindfulness is a really great way to become an observer of your own thought process. You can practice mindfulness in many different ways, and it might be helpful to practice it in a way that doesn’t have to do with your thoughts specifically, such as going outside, taking a couple minutes and just counting the different sounds that you hear.

Maybe just noticing the colors that you see outside and the variation in all of those different colors. If you don’t have breathing obsessions or don’t get really weirded out by focusing on body sensations, you can do things like count your breaths or noticing the air coming in and out of your body.

Mindfulness just means that you’re focusing on the present moment with a sense of intention. In order to build awareness and acceptance. When it comes to mindfully noticing your thoughts, you can do something called a thought diffusion exercise. This allows you to just slow down and notice some of the thoughts as they come.

You can utilize visualization exercises such as noticing each thought go by on a cloud in the sky, or noticing each thought individually on like the leaves on a stream. And as you notice those thoughts, what you’re trying to do in this exercise. Is to not judge it and not really latch onto it, but more of a stream of kind of letting the thoughts go in and out of your mind, resisting that immediate urge that we have to judge a thought as good or bad, like it’s just a thought and you get to decide if you want to entertain it further or just let it pass by.

So that’s a piece that’s within your control. We don’t control every thought that just pops into our head as you notice that in the ability for you to detach from that thought to let it go, understand. That’s not something that comes easily to us, especially if we’re used to managing thoughts differently.

If we’re used to just latching onto them or judging them or doing something about them, really taking this detached approach is very different, and it will take a lot of practice and intentionality. But the idea behind mindfulness is that it lets us know more about what’s happening so that when you’re in a space of clear headedness, you can make positive change instead of.

Trying to do so much when you’re in a frantic state or a non calm state. That’s usually what gets us into trouble, right, is when we start making all of these decisions, when we’re in a heightened emotional place or a place of mental stress. I’ve incorporated a little bit of mindfulness into Christians learning ICBT, because so much of what we’re doing is just teaching you to slow down and to really notice the process of how you’re getting latched into the story that OCD is telling you and the demands that it’s making on your time and energy.

Now I’m going to give you a list of ways to practice flexible thinking. Number one is take a different perspective. You can do this in several different ways, such as when you watch a movie or a TV show, you may find one character that you really like or really identify with. It’s easy to think through what their perspective on the situation, but maybe you can take a minor character or a different character such as a villain and try to think through what is their process, what is their perspective on this situation in this movie or TV show.

What’s interesting is that when I was younger, I used to really like the movie Sleepless in Seattle, and I watched it from the perspective of somebody who is looking for love. It’s a story about two people who are looking for love, but the man in the story is coming from a place of having lost his wife.

When I was younger, I had always identified with Meg Ryan’s character who was. Young and looking for love. But now that I was older and had experienced grief and loss, there was something really touching about Tom Hank’s character and watching that movie, again, almost through his eyes of grief and loss.

It was just a very different experience. So I encourage you, maybe you wanna even watch something that you haven’t watched in a little while and see if you have a different perspective or different reaction to it. So that’s number one. Take a different perspective. You can also do this when you’re reading the Bible.

You can look at the lens of different Bible characters views on a particular event that happened. What was John’s view of the last Supper? Versus Judas View versus Peter’s view. Three completely different perspectives on the same story, and I think they all have something to teach us, right? When you’re looking at your own experience and trying to take a different perspective on it, you might ask yourself, is there only one way to think about this issue?

Would someone of the opposite sex think the same way that I’m thinking about this issue? What would an older person say, or what would a younger person’s perspective be? What would the perspective of someone outside of my family be? I wanna say that what we’re talking about here is not about moral issues, not about right or wrong, clear moral issues, or things that we don’t agree with what we’re talking about are those more gray areas that may feel right or feel wrong because that’s the way the family’s always done it, or that’s what we’ve always been told is correct, even though it’s not a moral issue.

The importance of taking different perspectives too is that it really enhances our problem solving ability. Typically, when we have a problem, whether that be an interpersonal relationship problem or a financial problem, there’s often more than one solution that will get us to where we need to go, and our job is to think through the options, pray about it, and use wisdom to find the best solution for us.

The second tip on developing more flexible thinking is to ask yourself the question, what if it went well? Typically, we often think in worst case scenarios, if you’re dealing with any type of anxiety or OCD, you are convinced that a certain situation or outcome is going to be bad. But by asking yourself, what if it went well, you’re actually tuning your mind to a different perspective to say.

A, maybe it could go well, and maybe that’s a new thought to your brain, and B, what would I want that to look like? So if I want to have a calm, interpersonal interaction with somebody that I might be in conflict with, what would it look like if it went well? Well, I got enough sleep the night before. I didn’t have too much caffeine.

I was feeling optimistic going into it. I was able to remain calm, regardless of if the other person remained calm. And that also allows you to notice those different things. That are in your control that might be able to help you set up for success on a particular interaction or situation with someone else because we can only control the variables that have to do with us, right?

We can’t control how that other person is gonna respond. Or react. Oftentimes when things don’t go well, we go into a situation already anxious that it’s not gonna go well, and so then our brain is already shifted in that particular direction of something not going well. So it will play out that scenario that it’s already told itself.

It doesn’t always happen that way. Sometimes we think very negatively about something and we get surprised and it’s better. Oftentimes people will say, oh, I don’t wanna be blindsided. So I don’t wanna think super positive about the situation if it’s not gonna be positive. But we have to recognize like what we’re telling ourselves.

That story that you’re saying within your own thought process is really, really important. Something that we do in EMDR therapy is called like a future template, and what we do is we basically train your brain of how we want you to be able to respond to the situation. So it may be that you have a person that you need to have a confrontational conversation with and we might run through.

Okay. How would you like that to go? People will say, well, I’d like that person to not raise their voice, or I would like that person to not argue with me. And we say, well, we can’t really control that here or when you’re actually there, but would you like to be able to be calm if they do start to raise their voice?

Or would you like to be able to set a boundary if they start to raise their voice and ask them to lower it? Those are things that we can actually work on and sit with and imagine those positive things happening and kind of train your brain in that direction. So it really helps you be able to find those situations that are in your control and priming your brain to move towards the positive of what if this did go well?

The third way to increase flexible thinking is to intentionally do something that you’re not good at. This is really, really great for perfectionist, finding some type of creative outlet or new activity that you haven’t done before, and allowing yourself to struggle through that. Not to beat yourself up, but to let your brain and your body know, Hey, we can try new things.

They can be different. We don’t have to be perfect at it the first time. It is going to be very uncomfortable. I had a client a long time ago that decided to pick up a particular creative project in order to work on some of this flexible thinking and comfort with trying new things. It was hard. It was uncomfortable, but also this client found out that helped them overall in the grand scheme of things.

Trying new things may be something as small as writing with a different color pen or trying something new on a restaurant menu that you’ve never had before that you aren’t sure if you would like. Taking these small risk may help you take bigger risk in the future. Which might be really healthy for your OCD recovery.

Number four is to list all the solutions to a problem, even the ridiculous ones. Now, this one, you’ll need your sense of humor for and it make you laugh along the way, but what it does is it helps you find creative solutions to a problem. So for example, you could look at what are all of the different ways that I could use in order to get to work?

I could ride a unicycle, of course, that’s really silly because A, I don’t own a unicycle BI don’t know how to ride a unicycle, but theoretically I could ride one to work. I’m not exactly sure the logistics of that, how long it would take, et cetera. But that’s the point. You see how initially when we have a thought, we often limit ourselves.

We’re like, no, that’s ridiculous. Whereas if we write down some of these other things, like probably more common options would be, I can get in my car and drive. That’s how I normally get to work. What if my car broke down? I could catch a ride with someone else. I could use Uber. I could ride my bike theoretically.

I could check to see if there’s a bus route near me. I don’t think that’s logistically feasible in my particular city, but maybe I could put it on the list and just make just a gigantic brain dump of everything. Then you can always reevaluate the things as you go, right? Oh, okay. Unicycle wouldn’t work very well, not practical, and I don’t own one and I don’t know how to ride one.

So that’s off the list. And by marking off some of like the silly options that may create some thinking flexibility. Creativity in your brain. You might even think of a way to solve the problem that’s different than you had originally thought. Maybe you only thought there were two to three reasonable ways to make this decision, but maybe you open up your mind and find other ones.

Number five is choose your own ending. This would be really great if you’re watching a show. And you know how sometimes on the season finale they’ll really leave you at a cliffhanger or something will be unresolved or unfinished. Take one of those type of episodes or maybe you pause a show halfway through and just write down.

Three different ways that it could end. Okay, this person and this person could fall in love and run off and get married, or this person and this person discover that this big secret comes out. The main character decides he wants to quit his job and move to Bora Bora. There are actually books that do this, I think they’re called Choose Your Own Adventure and they’ll give you different forks in the road and you can kind of skip to different pages depending on where you want characters to go or what you want them to do.

There might be different options. I’m sure the internet has probably added even more opportunities to choose your own adventure. This will probably really help you if you ever do ICBT, because essentially we’re looking at what is the story OCD is telling you, and then what if some potential alternative stories that you could write surrounding this.

I hope this episode has helped you really work on all or nothing thinking and creating thinking, flexibility. It’s a really important skill to develop. Stay tuned. Next week we’re gonna be talking about is it time to get a new therapist? See you then. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Christian faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

185. What Does It Mean to Take This Thought Captive? What About Intrusive Thoughts?

Written by Carrie Bock on August 4, 2025. Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie unpacks what it really means to take a thought captive and why that verse can feel confusing for Christians navigating OCD. She brings biblical clarity, challenges common misconceptions, and shares a more grace-filled way to respond to intrusive thoughts.

Episode Highlights:

What that “take every thought captive” verse actually means in context—and why it’s not about perfect thought control
How spiritual armor like the helmet of salvation helps protect your mind in OCD struggles
Why trying to squash every thought can keep you stuck in compulsions
The difference between intrusive thoughts and sin—and how to respond with grace instead of fear
How to let go of the pressure to manage every thought and trust God’s work in your healing

Episode Summary:

If you’ve struggled with OCD as a Christian, you’ve probably been told to “take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ.” And if you’re like many of the clients I’ve walked with, you may have felt confused, overwhelmed, or even discouraged by that verse—like you’re failing spiritually because you can’t seem to control your thoughts.

In this episode, I want to take you deeper. We’re opening up Scripture, looking at what Paul really meant when he wrote those words, and how context can completely change the way we understand them.

I’m breaking down the difference between intrusive thoughts and sin, why OCD loves to latch onto spiritual language, and how well-intentioned advice can sometimes feed the compulsive cycle. We’ll talk about spiritual armor, and how these gifts protect our minds in ways that don’t rely on striving, but on God’s grace.

You’ll hear why managing your thoughts doesn’t mean trying to control everything that pops into your head, and how to begin responding to unwanted thoughts without panic, shame, or spiritual pressure.

As a licensed counselor and follower of Jesus, I’m passionate about helping Christians move past fear-based faith and into a fuller understanding of God’s love—even when OCD is loud.

Tune in to the full episode to discover a healthier, more biblical approach to your thought life, find freedom from compulsive spiritual habits, and learn how to walk in the truth that you already have the mind of Christ.

Transcript

If you struggled with OCD as a Christian, you’ve probably heard people talk about taking your thoughts captive and making them obedient to Christ. I wanna take a deep dive into the scripture today.

With practical tools for developing greater peace, we’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you. Let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you.

So let’s dive right into today’s episode. I’m gonna start by reading Second Corinthians 10, three through five in the ESV. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. Whenever we’re looking at scripture and we’re trying to pick apart, what is God saying to me here? What does it actually mean? First of all, we need to look at the context of who’s writing, who are they writing to?

What’s going on in this section of scripture? So let’s just take a broad overview. Paul is writing to the Corinthian church. This is his second letter to them. I’ve said it before that if there was a reality TV show about Christians that were a hot mess express, the Corinthians would’ve been on it.

Remember they were new believers coming from a Pagan culture, trying to figure out how to live as Christians. Now, how do we do this Christianity thing that Paul has told us about When we look at the chapter before, it doesn’t really give us a whole lot of context clues. Paul is talking in chapter nine about how he’s taking up this collection for Jerusalem and is talking about giving generously.

I like to look at the chapter before, because we have to remember the chapter and verse markers were put in later so that we could all find our spot. But it was originally just one long letter. Right? But in early in chapter 10, we see that Paul is responding to a couple different things that were said about them.

I’m assuming that these were said by people within the Corinthians community or even within the Corinthians Church in verse one, he’s saying, Paul, who am timid, timid when face-to-face with you, but quote, bold towards you when you are away. This leads us to believe that people were saying, Hey Paul.

You’re kind of gentle and meek when you’re here, but when you write us letters, you’re really hard and harsh and just bold towards us. Then in verse two, Paul says, I beg you that when I come, I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be towards some people who think that we live by the standards of this world.

So that’s another accusation. People are saying, Paul, you’re not living by the spirit. You’re living according to the standards of this world. This leads him into verse three that I quoted before. Though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. So he’s setting up the stage for talking about the difference between fleshly arguments, fleshly wars that people have, versus spiritual battles and spiritual arguments that come up.

If we wanna look at a parallel passage, you can go to Ephesians six where it talks about the armor of God. And in verse 12, it says, for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of the dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

So we know that as Christians, these verses are telling us that our biggest battles are going to be in the spiritual realm, and that in order to fight those spiritual battles, we have to be, as Ephesians six says, armored with the armor of God. So let’s talk about that for just a microsecond, because we could spend a ton of time talking about the armor of God.

But when we’re talking specifically about our thought process, you need to remember that we have the helmet of salvation in battle. Your head is a very important aspect to. Our head and our heart. Obviously, if one of those things gets knocked out, we’re not going to survive. In the armor of God. We have the helmet of salvation to protect our head, and for a offensive weapon, we have the sword of the spirit, which is a word of God.

For a defensive weapon, we have the shield of faith, which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Verse 16, being really secure in your salvation, protects your head, protects your mind knowing I am the Lord. He loves me. He died for me. I am saved. I am his. That is amazing. And then this shield of faith of knowing that there are gonna be many things that come at us.

Sometimes our own thought process of things that aren’t true and aren’t in line with the Lord and what he is told us in his word. And that shield of faith, that belief and rest and trust in Christ is gonna extinguish the flaming arrows of evil. Both of these things that I just talked about that are in Ephesians six, there are gifts, guys like these spiritual weapons and spiritual armor.

These are gifts from God. Salvation is a gift we can’t produce. Salvation. Faith is a gift from God. We can exercise our faith after God gives it to us, but it’s God who draws us into this love story is God who has rescued us. It’s God who has caused us to be able to believe in him in the first place.

There’s so much effort that I see Christians with OCD trying to exert in an effort to live out their faith, and I would just encourage you to remind yourself that there’s so much that doesn’t depend on you. We can’t forget that our part is obedience to what God has already done for us. We are not working our way towards God.

That’s religion. That’s not the gospel. We are abiding and responding to the finished work on the cross, and we are surrendering our lives one day at a time, taking up our cross to follow Jesus every day. Okay, so let’s flip back to second Corinthians 10. I know maybe seem like I’m jumping around, but sometimes this is what you need to do when you study scripture is to look for other places that similar things are mentioned, and I’m gonna jump to another scripture later.

But when we look at this idea of. Taking thoughts captive and making them obedient to Christ, demolishing arguments. I think that when we look at this, we think, okay, so a thought comes into my mind. It’s a thought that’s not godly. It’s a sinful thought. It’s something that God doesn’t want me to think about or focus on.

And I immediately have to hop on it and squash it like a bug. Like it’s just gotta go. I’ve got to rebuke that thought in the name of Jesus. And these are the things that OCD really latches into and they become very compulsive. And as a Christian, you’re trying to figure out, how do I follow my faith while at the same time not giving into the OCD compulsive behavior of this praying repeated prayers or rebuking thoughts or shaking your head to get them outta your mind.

There’s so many different avenues that this can go towards, but those are the things that we’re trying to prevent while also staying aligned with our faith. I really would encourage you to search the scriptures for a verse that says that we choose everything that pops into our head. I can promise you that it’s not there.

So while we have guidance in the scriptures about dealing with our thought process. Obviously that’s important because sometimes our thoughts do turn into actions. However, there are many, many times that we think about things that we don’t ever do because we check ourselves or we pray about it and we say, oh, no, that is not a good idea.

That’s not a good decision. We talk about it with someone else. I mean, there may be times where you want to eat 10 chocolate chip cookies, but then you think through the consequences of that and you go, I am gonna feel so sick afterwards, and that is not gonna be honoring to my body. So I am not going to do that.

How about one to two cookies? So nowhere in scripture does it say that we have complete thought control as a Christian and that we can control everything that comes into our minds. However, I have spoken to many Christians with OCD who are struggling because they really genuine believe that they should be able to control everything that comes into their mind.

That is not truth, that is a lie. It may have been taught to you somewhere along the lines of Christian teaching. Or you may have inferred it or implied it from some things that you’ve been taught, such as take every thought captive. You cannot control every thought that comes into your mind. In the case of Paul, it’s interesting because he is talking about things that people are actually saying against him.

These are not just thoughts that are coming into his mind about his ministry, but he’s saying, Hey, some of you are saying this about me. Some of you are saying these things about me, that I am bold when I’m away, but I’m not bold when I’m there. In verse seven, he says, you are judging by appearances here and in other places.

Paul is telling us that people were actively trying to discredit his ministry. Why? Because he was preaching the gospel. Who would stand against preaching the gospel? Evil is the short answer, or these spiritual battles that we face in the heavenly places. It’s interesting that Paul brings in the word thoughts here because he’s talking about people who were making verbal arguments against him.

However, I’m wondering if the significance there is that sometimes when people are saying things to us externally that we can and do at times have a tendency to internalize them. There may be things that you have been told throughout your life that you believe that might be completely false or untrue.

You might have all kinds of contrary evidence towards those thoughts. Just like Paul, we can’t believe everything that other people say about us, and we need to remember that in Paul’s case, because he was in ministry and people were trying to discredit him, and he was in a position of leadership. It was really important for him to address these statements or these thoughts.

Now, what does that mean for you as you’re trying to navigate OCD? What does it mean to take a thought captive? The best way that you might be able to do that is simply to leave it alone. And I know that seems really, really hard because it’s against maybe everything that you’ve been taught about your thought process.

And I think it helps if you’re able to not just immediately judge a thought as, this is a good thought, this is a bad thought, but more as something a little bit more neutral of just, this is a thought that I didn’t control. It popped into my mind, and now I have a decision to make. I can either entertain this thought or I can ignore this thought and move on.

If I entertain this thought, even in the sense of rebuking it or praying it away or shaking my head or doing something other kind of mental compulsion, trying to think about a positive thought to replace it, that is much more likely to make the thought hang around longer or to make the thought come back.

So if I can let that thought go, let it pass by, not engage with it. That is a much better way for it to be taken captive and made obedient to Christ versus jumping in and doing something about it. I do realize that some of this stuff may be completely contrary to everything that you’ve heard or been taught by other people.

We also have to remember there’s a difference in dealing with intrusive thoughts and someone else who’s not dealing with intrusive thoughts and how you might respond to certain things. I want to share with you another scripture that I think might help you as you’re going through and discerning how to handle your thought process, and this is really beautiful, I think, for people with OCD who have so much questioning going on.

This is from one Corinthians two, and I’m gonna start in verse 10 and go through the end of the chapter. These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God for who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in Him.

So also, no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom, but taught by the Spirit interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

What this is saying is that we have the ability to understand spiritual things because we have the Holy Spirit inside of us. Speaking those spiritual truths to us. Continuing in verse 14, the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God for they are folly to him and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The spiritual person judges all things but is himself to be judged by no one for who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him, but we have the mind of Christ. This is a really beautiful truth that we have that we can hold onto, is that God has given us the ability to understand spiritual things by putting the Holy Spirit in us, by giving us the mind of Christ.

Once again, this is a gift that you have as a believer in Jesus Christ. And I want you to know that you can walk in that authority and in that freedom, and as you’re working through your OCD journey to let go of the pressure maybe that you’re putting on yourself spiritually to try to control your thought process, the pressure that you’re putting on yourself to have like the perfect thought life because no one has that.

The pressure that you might be putting on yourself to. Suppress these thoughts or handle these thoughts or manage these thoughts and all those things often just feeds the OCD monster and makes everything worse. So every thought that you feel like you’re continuing to have to manage and suppress, and.

It even gets to the point where people get concerned that they’re going to have a thought and they haven’t even had the thought yet. So it’s like we’re not even dealing with the thought. We’re dealing with. The thought of the thought when ICBT calls that thought, thought. Fusion, which is a lot of words, but it’s definitely something that I see a lot in Christians who are struggling with OCD.

I just wanna end this episode in a prayer for you. Maybe you’re just really struggling with your thoughts right now. Dear Jesus, I know that people who are listening to this episode are really desiring to have a healthy relationship with you, a healthy relationship with their thought process. When we ask that you would free them from OCD from. Help them to get the exact treatment that they need so that they can live the abundant life that you’ve promised us in Jesus Christ. Also, always clinging to who that you say that we are loved, chosen, forgiven. When we struggle, remind us that your Holy Spirit is in. Remind everyone listening that we have the mind of Christ.

In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen. I thank you so much for tuning in today. I send out a weekly email newsletter that gives you a little bit of behind the scenes of what’s going on here at the podcast, and I really just design it to be a little extra dose of encouragement. When I send out notices of episodes that are coming out, and so I hope that you’ll join us.

Hop onto carriebock.com and sign up for that email list. Keep going, OCD Warriors. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

184. From Questioning God’s Will to Embracing Grace: A Personal Story with Michael Kheir

Written by Carrie Bock on July 29, 2025. Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

Episode Highlights:

What it’s like to live with scrupulosity (religious OCD) from childhood into adulthood
How to tell the difference between conviction from God and intrusive OCD thoughts
Why legalism, fear, and shame often get tangled with our view of God
How becoming a parent deepened Michael’s understanding of grace
What it really means to walk by faith—not fear-driven compulsions

Episode Summary:

This week marks the final episode in our Personal Story Summer Series, and I can’t think of a better conversation to close it out than this one with Michael Kier, author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach. If you’ve ever felt like your relationship with God was more about fear than faith—or if you’ve ever wondered, “Is this conviction from the Holy Spirit or just OCD?”—then Michael’s story will resonate deeply with you.

In this episode, Michael shares what it was like to grow up with scrupulosity, a form of OCD that turns faith into something fear-based and obsessive. He opens up about the intrusive thoughts that shaped his childhood, the spiral of guilt and compulsions he faced as a young adult, and the pressure he felt to constantly “get it right” with God. For years, his view of God was clouded by fear, shame, and a rigid idea of what it meant to be holy. But through Scripture, therapy, and ultimately becoming a parent, Michael began to experience something radically different: the steady, unshakable grace of God.

Our conversation dives into the real-life tension between legalism and grace, and how OCD can mimic spirituality in ways that are hard to untangle. His honesty is refreshing, and his story is a beautiful reminder that God’s love isn’t performance-based. It’s consistent. It’s gentle. And it meets us in our mess.

I hope it reminds you that healing is possible, even if the symptoms don’t disappear overnight. You can live a life of peace, presence, and deep trust in God—even with OCD in the mix.

So go ahead and hit play on this one. I think it might be exactly what your heart needs today.

Transcript

Today, here I have Michael, author of Waging War Against OCD: A Christian Approach, and Mike was kind enough to send me a copy of his book so I could read it. People don’t always do that—sometimes they do, and sometimes they don’t. That’s the secret to being a podcast interviewer. I feel like it goes much better when I understand the book and have read it.

_______

Carrie: Welcome to the show, Mike.

Michael: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Carrie: This is your personal story, really, of OCD and the things that you found that helped you. And I saw, as you were writing it, that you had referenced a lot of other books that you read on OCD—books that were Christian, books that were secular. But it sounds like you’ve done your research over the years.

Michael: Yes. I think I started reading about the subject a lot when I was about 24 or 25 years old. The first one that I read was Grace of Bounty by John Bunyan. I think my mom actually found it somewhere and gave it to me, and I remember I started crying when I was reading it because it was immediately relatable to me, and I thought it was so cool that somebody that was used that mightily by God had a very similar struggle. I kind of felt like God probably used that struggle to use him in big ways. That was really encouraging to me, and then from there, it was 2007, so we had iPhones, and the internet was very accessible, so I just started googling and researching a lot and found some stuff, but not enough that made me feel like everything that needed to be said on the subject had been said. That’s sort of what motivated me to move forward and start writing.

Carrie: In the book, you tell many relatable stories of how OCD affected you, starting in childhood and then going through adolescence, and adulthood. Would you mind sharing one or two of those?

Michael: Sure. I’m going to bring one up because we might come back to it.

There was one that happened in college, a bunch of kids from our church. I went on a spring break trip, and we were all sort of sharing living spaces. The guys had like an apartment, the girls had an apartment, and I remember I was in our apartment and there’s like a living area and I was talking to some of my roommates and then a guy and his girlfriend walked in and at some point, I remember thinking, my shirt untucked I need to tuck it in and I think I like unzipped my pants just a little bit, tucked it in and then zipped it back up. No one would think anything about it because we were in a living area. It was a very laid-back environment. I don’t even think I was close to any of the girls, but that one girl was there. I just remember obsessing on that and thinking, if she saw me do that, that would be horrifyingly inappropriate as a Christian man to do something like that, and I just obsessed on that idea not immediately, but probably a week after we got back from the trip. I just started obsessing on that, thinking I was in the wrong.

Every time I would try to read the Bible or pray, I would think, I believe it’s Matthew 5:23 that says, if anyone has an offense against you, leave your gift at the altar or your sacrifice at the altar, go make it right, and then come back. Every time I would sit down to pray or read my Bible, I would think, it’s like all OCD.

There’s a 1 percent chance or a one in a million chance that this girl’s offended because she might’ve seen it and she might’ve interpreted it wrong. This went on for, I think, a couple of weeks and I eventually was like, the only way I can get rid of this fear, the one in a million chance I offended her is to apologize, which, in part of my mind, I knew was completely insane, inappropriate, and like, she would be like, what on earth are you talking about? So, I knew that in part of my brain, but I just couldn’t get rid of the fear that I was in sin. I think I emailed her boyfriend and said, if she saw this, I’m really sorry.

My heart is pounding as I’m doing it because I know how crazy it’s going to come across, but I did it and the moment I did it, it was a very powerful moment in my life. I realized what I had just done was not at all, like, relieving in the sense of, okay, I’ve done the will of God. It was more like that was not right.

Something about that was off and that helped me, that was kind of a pivotal moment in my journey of realizing that giving in to every compulsion to remove the one-in-a-million chance of something happening was not the right approach. That’s the big one that sticks with me a lot.

Carrie: Were there any stories that your parents or others close to you didn’t know about until you started writing these things down?

I guess I was thinking that there was a story about you being concerned about suffocating your stuffed animals and they had to be tucked in just a certain way and you’d lay there in bed at night and like losing sleep. Like, did your parents know any of that was going on in your mind?

Michael: I would say that one they may have known, but there were so many that they did not know.

I can’t think of the ones offhand, but I would say most of them, they did not know until I was an adult. I remember sitting in a parking lot, talking to my brother in my 20s, and I was explaining some of the thoughts I was having, and they were all OCD thoughts, and they were overwhelming me, and I remember he goes, you have thoughts like that?

He knew I had OCD, but I don’t think he had any idea of what the toll it took, and how it looked in the brain, and that’s sort of what I really tried to convey when I told my story, is like, when I’m sitting in that moment, these are the thoughts going through my head, and even my mom, as she’s read it after it’s been published in the last couple weeks, has said, man, I’m learning a lot, and I think she knew most of it, but she probably didn’t know how to deal with it and ended up either suppressing it or just kind of putting it in its own little compartment in her head because it was Something she didn’t know how to deal with to help her child.

Carrie: That’s so great one of the reasons I love this show is because we’re able to break the stigma and talk about some of these things when you’re in your own mind having those obsessions There’s this element of feeling so alone and disconnected and nobody else understands what it’s like to live in this mental gymnasium.

Michael: Absolutely. I think part of the stigma is that mental health issues make you less than or less intelligent and I almost look at it like LeBron James, the best basketball player in the world right now, if he had an injury, we wouldn’t say, that guy is such a terrible basketball player. We’d be like, he has an injury and he has to recover from it or he has to compensate for it.

I see mental health the same way. It’s like, I have OCD. That doesn’t mean I’m not intelligent or I can’t function in society. I went to college. I got a master’s degree. I have a decent career. It’s just viewed. Incorrectly by a lot of people in society and in the church, of course, to which we will probably get to, I hope.

Carrie: I’ve met many people with OCD that I would consider incredibly smart, thoughtful, intelligent, and that ability to solve problems in their head that works well in other scenarios, like whether it’s people that work in software or computers or engineering that they can’t use that same type of logic and problem-solving and solving these obsessions and compulsions, which is frustrating because they’re good problem solvers, typically in other areas of their life.

Michael: Absolutely.

Carrie: One of the things that stood out to me in your book was the weighing the 99.99 percent versus the 0.01 percent.

Michael: Right. I want to touch on another story. I believe it’s chapter two where I go through my life story and it’s about another basketball player. Keep coming back to basketball. I was taking pictures of Michael Jordan, not as a professional photographer, but from the stands.

Me and my friend had gone to watch him. This was after he had Unretired the second time. I think it was 2002. He was playing for the Washington Wizards. So, we got these high-up nosebleed seats as the game wore on, and a lot of people left. I think it was a weeknight. So, the crowd just thinned out, and we kind of snuck down to some really good seats.

I think we were 10 rows back, right behind the side where Michael Jordan was scoring. So, he goes up for a dunk. I get a really good picture of it. I’m super excited. I go home. I develop the negatives. They’re really good and then I realize, what have I done? And I go through this long list of condemning thoughts.

Number one, I’m cheering for a team with a mascot, the Wizards, and again, these are all in my mind. I know these are all one in a trillion chance of being wrong, but it doesn’t matter that it’s one in a trillion, it’s still a chance, and I’m obsessing on the chance. So by cheering for a team with a mascot called the Wizards, there is a one-in-a-trillion chance I’m supporting witchcraft.

I snuck down to the cheaper seats during the game, so now I’ve cheated Ticketmaster. Whoever deserves that money, I’ve now cheated them. It goes back to a very similar situation with that spring break trip that I had had several years earlier. I’m trying to read the Bible, I’m trying to pray, and I’m immediately thinking, I’m a thief, I stole from Ticketmaster or the Washington Wizards organization. I am just a terrible Christian, essentially, for promoting such an evil mascot. Again, I just want to reiterate that these ideas sound crazy, and I knew they were crazy in the intellectual part of my brain or mind, but I could not separate the fear from it. The one in a million chance that it was wrong is kind of what drives OCD and drives the compulsions and the obsessions.

Similar to what I did with the spring break trip, I decided I needed to repent of this before I could continue in my relationship with God for a couple of reasons. One, if I am promoting this witchcraft, then I’m possibly deceived. I’m sitting here reading the Bible, but I may or may not be interpreting it correctly in my mind.

I may be thinking, that God is promising something in this verse, but it doesn’t apply to me because I’m deceived. I’m under this cloud of deception because I’m promoting witchcraft. So I decided to make a list of things to do to repent. I’m going to call Ticketmaster, find out the prices of the cheaper seats we went down to, and pay the difference between what we paid and what we did down there and where we had sat.

I was going to stop cheering for the Wizards. Could I promote a team that’s involved in witchcraft? I was going to, the hardest part was to destroy the negatives. This was back when we had film and negatives, and destroy the photos, and then I’d have fully repented. And then when I go and read my Bible and pray now, I know that I’m not under some influence of deception or in sin against God.

After I had gone through that whole process for probably four weeks, I read something in Galatians that caught my eye. That said, “Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you,” which means who has deceived you, that you should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified.

This is the only I want to learn from you. Did you receive the spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish, having begun in the spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? And I was completely caught off guard by that because I immediately realized all the things I had just listed out that I was going to do to be made right with God again were works.

I was going to pay more money, I was going to destroy negatives, I was going to stop cheering for a team. Those were the actual threats to being deceived, and I realized in that moment, it probably wasn’t a moment. It probably took a few days, but I realized that doing all of that work was not a risk-free situation. Meaning I was not going to do all of those things to become undeceived, which would then take the chance of being deceived down from one in a billion or one in a trillion down to zero. I was actually doing these things and the chances of being deceived were going up. They weren’t going all the way down to zero from one in a trillion.

Over time, I’ve realized there are so many things where we think we’re doing a compulsion to remove the one in a billion chance of something bad happening and we’re increasing the risk of the bad thing happening. I know this initially sounds like complete hell to somebody with OCD because you’re thinking, great, now you’ve just given me more scenarios to worry about, and more scenarios that I’m just going to become compulsive about. What I realized is that as Christians, our walk with God is all by grace and when I can acknowledge I’m not exactly sure what to do, I should maybe go destroy all these negatives and stop cheering for the Wizards, or maybe I should just walk by faith and not worry about that because that’s what the Bible says. Once I can sit in a place of having to trust God because I don’t know exactly what to do, then I’m in a place where I’m walking correctly with God, and that is so freeing. Because it’s saying, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do, and now I can be at rest and not think that I have all these hoops to jump through to be made right with God again.

Carrie: I would normalize that as a human experience of not always knowing what to do.

Michael: Absolutely.

Carrie: Some things are very clear, defined in scripture, don’t do this, yes, do this, but there are many other things that may be personal decisions about, “Do I move this year? Do I move next year? Do I not move? Does God want me to stay here?” Those types of things that we really have to wrestle through that maybe don’t have just one right answer right now, or we’re unsure of, and that’s okay. It’s hard to sit with that discomfort or the unknown piece, though.

Michael: And I think this goes back to a general issue that a lot of people with OCD have is an obsession with what is God’s will. This hit me a lot, sometimes even now. I remember in college, there were just limitless choices about everything. Should I go eat at this dining hall or that dining hall? Well, what if I go to dining hall A, and I was supposed to go to dining hall B, and I was going to bump into someone that I led to Christ, who became the next Billy Graham? By not doing God’s will, 500 million people are going to go to hell in the next generation because I didn’t go to Dining Hall B, which sounds very arrogant and presumptuous, but again, it’s all based on a fear of I might be causing all this harm, not necessarily I’m so capable I can impact things in that way.

I think another part of the freedom that I’ve come to that I talk about in chapter eight and in chapter nine, God’s grace is what frees us from that. We’re only at the bottom of all of those fears. “God is harsh, God is judgmental, and God is not for me. If I mess up just a little bit, he’s going to whack me over the head as hard as he can.” But once we realize that he’s kind and loving and gentle with us, then the fear of should I go to dining hall A or dining hall B becomes almost irrelevant. It’s like God loves me if I have a child now. If my child made a tiny error like that, she went to my bedroom instead of her bedroom to look for something.

I’m not going to be angry if she went to the wrong bedroom she’s my kid I love her and there’s just so much grace and understanding in that relationship and I think that’s what ultimately leads to long-term freedom.

Carrie: Tell us about how having a child helped you have a greater understanding of God’s grace and I resonate with that as well with my daughter. There’s just something that you feel as a parent of just that sense of, I love you and I’m for you on your best days when you’re so well-behaved and on your worst days, when all you can do is scream at me, I’m still here for you and I still love you.

Michael: I feel like it’s almost supernatural and it’s part of being created in God’s image. He loves us so much, and God the Father loves his son so much, and you just see it all through society. Even the worst of the worst people love their kids, it’s just totally ingrained in us, and I think that’s totally because we were created in his image and the same was true for me when she was born. It was just this overwhelming sense of, I love this person unconditionally. It was more than emotion. It’s more than just the will. It’s just, almost supernatural, I would say. She’s now six and a half years old. As that relationship has grown, I’m starting to see so many areas where I’m like, that’s totally how God sees me.

She’s just had a rotten day. I love her just as I did yesterday when she had a great day. She’s just so pleasing to me, and she brings joy whenever I get to see her, and whenever she walks in the room, whenever I pick her up from school, and I think we get that intellectually in church. We know God is gracious, God is good, God loves us and it’s in our head. Very successfully, it gets to our head. Getting to our heart is much harder and I think having a child made it get to the heart a lot, a lot faster than it would have.

Carrie: My daughter teaches me stuff all the time. I was telling one of my clients and we were talking about sin and grace and God’s love for us and I was saying my daughter started walking roughly around 12 months and I think she was 18 months at the time. I was like, she’s been walking for a little while, but she falls down a lot and I’m not talking about a slight stumble. I’m talking about how your face is about to hit the floor and your hands just barely caught you from face-planting.

It made me realize that in our walk with Christ, we see that when we fall God is saying, “Can’t you get it together?” Whereas it’s more like, “Okay, get up, you fell, get up, let’s move forward. Let’s keep going.” It doesn’t mean that you have to get out of the race or stop running. Just kind of dust it off and move on.

Michael: Absolutely. That is such a good picture and so much closer to reality. I feel I think as we become adults, we think there’s so much in our control and our capabilities are so high, and we’re probably a lot closer, at least our spiritual capability, like that. We just fall and fall and fall, and God’s trying to show us that it’s His grace that keeps picking us up and moving us forward.

Carrie: When you were able to examine your own OCD, did you kind of define it as legalism, or this is kind of like the legalist part of my brain? Did that have anything to do with strict church upbringing or not?

Michael: I would say yes, and I don’t want to knock on my parents or my grandfather who was a spiritual giant in a way. He grew up in Egypt and came to Christ at 17 and started a church at 22 and just had an amazing, amazing ministry in Egypt and then also when he came to the U.S. My mom obviously was heavily influenced by him and he was a huge impact on my life. I would say that there was definitely the culture difference. Number one, because they were from Egypt and formalities are a big thing there and also just our parents trying to protect us because they were so culturally different when they got to the U.S., they basically had the mindset of anything we don’t fully understand we’re going to protect them from. Even watching certain kids’ shows, like on TGI Friday, I don’t know if you remember TGIF Full House, and like there were some of those shows that were a little bit too much, we couldn’t watch those, and rock and roll was bad, tattoos were bad, long hair on men was bad, just a lot of things that they decided, let’s just cut these things off, so definitely, I would say my upbringing led to or fueled some of that legalism and OCD getting mixed.

Carrie: A lot of times I find there’s a rigidity sometimes that people are raised in, and it doesn’t always have to do spiritually sometimes it has to do with kind of things that you’re saying, just like the household rules.

You have to load the dishwasher this way, or if you did something different, it’s wrong. Don’t hang out with anybody that’s doing that thing over there. I’m curious though, a lot of your stuff was scrupulosity-related. How did you come to decipher, okay, this is God speaking to me, or I know this is something God wants and, or this is OCD because this is a question I probably get asked all the time. How do I know if I’m coming under the conviction of the Holy Spirit or if it’s OCD telling me, you need to repent, you need to confess, you need to do this, that?

Michael: One thing that really led me to not give up trying to figure out that issue was how many times in the Bible God tells us basically to test ideas. I wanted to just mention a few of them 2 Corinthians 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. He’s basically saying you’re having thoughts and you can acknowledge them as being of God or not of God.

One of the biggest ones I liked was, for the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart and I thought, well, sounds like the word of God is the answer to this question. Where can we get a level of discernment like this? and Division of Soul and Spirit? I read some theology, and it seems like that issue in and of itself is very complicated, but it’s almost like a promise from God, like, He’s saying you can actually understand this, and parse these thoughts from each other, using my word.

Another one is 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things, hold fast to what is good. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world and that’s talking more about, obviously, actual people saying things that they maybe shouldn’t, and testing what they’re saying versus the word of God, but it also applies to our minds. That led me to think, where is it in the Bible? He says that in the Word of God, or you’ll be able to use the Word of God to decipher all this and I really came down to three passages that I thought did it for me. Galatians 5:22 and 23 say that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control against such things there is no law.

I thought to myself, If I’m listening to thoughts, and they’re eventually leading to actions, go evangelize to that person over there, they’re gonna go straight to hell. Well, is that thought from a God that’s producing love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control in me?

I kind of start breaking it down and I say, well, is that a gentle thought? Not really. It’s more of like a demanding, do this right now, do this right now. Which is then catalyzing really in a compulsion to go evangelize right this minute. So now I’m throwing self-control out the window. Was it brought to me in kindness? Not really. I think back to a time when I felt God called me to move. I did five years at Virginia Tech, and in my fourth year, I was in this nice, like, air-conditioned, upper-class dorm room and I just remember thinking one day, I should probably move to this all-freshman. It was this gross, non air-conditioned, freshman dorm. It kind of hit me for a couple of days, and I was feeling the same things, like, kind of guilt, is this really God? Confusion and I remember just looking up one day, I was praying, and I was facing it, it was probably a couple hundred yards away, and I could see it out of a window, and God’s peace just really came over me.

I was like, “I actually want to move there, that actually sounds like a good idea.” I was motivated, and it really sounded like the Spirit of God. I would describe experiencing the Spirit of God. There was joy. I was wanting to do it. I had peace about it. It was a very kind thought in the sense of like if you don’t do this, everyone in that building is going to go to hell.

That was not at all part of that thought. So it was gentle therefore, I was making the decision with self-control and it’s funny, right after that happened, I went back to my dorm room and a couple of hours later, my roommate came back. He’s like, “Hey, do you remember Steve? It was actually my roommate in freshman year. He wants to move into that freshman dorm across the way, and he’s looking for a roommate.” That’s funny because I just decided to move there about two hours ago, so we became roommates again, and it was pretty cool. Just starting to see how the fruits of our actions are pretty obviously indicative of us listening to God or not listening to God. So that was the first passage, and I go into way more detail in the book. Shameless plug for my book there.

Carrie: Why did you choose to write this book and share your story?

Michael: I alluded to it a little bit in the beginning. I think there were so many issues that if I had had this exact book back when I was growing up, it would have been so helpful. There’s a lot out there more now than there was when I was really in the worst parts of this, but a lot of it was just, I felt God was teaching me things, and I was reading and reading about this, and a lot of it was from the medical standpoint and the psychiatric standpoint. And there was a big gap between that and the church.

I felt like the church was, at least the churches I was involved in, leaned towards, “You are having anxiety and OCD. Well, it could be multiple things. You need to pray more. If you prayed more, you’d have the peace of God more. There’s a hidden sin in your life, and that’s why you’re struggling.”

You need to dig, which is the worst thing in the world to say to someone with OCD because now they’re fishing for something that doesn’t even exist, and they’re obsessing even more than they were, trying to find a sin that likely does not exist. They likely just have a chemical imbalance in their brain. There was that aspect of it, completely ignoring the medical aspect of it, and then there were all these brilliant medical doctors who were psychiatrists and then also the PhDs that were psychologists coming up with the truth of the medical side of it with no connection to the fact that there is a God and a Satan and there is spiritual warfare sometimes. I just felt like both sides were completely ignoring the other side and nothing was bringing more truth together.

Carrie: There’s nothing to bridge that gap between that theology and really good therapy and medical help.

Michael: Exactly.

Carrie: Usually towards the end, I ask people a couple of different questions, like, tell us a story of hope or something to your younger self, but I’m curious for you, If you will talk with us about what OCD is like now, does it still show up? It’s just you notice it and you’re more able to recognize it as OCD? I think a lot of people that I talk to, they’re just so focused on, “I want this to go away and I don’t want to deal with this long term.” I want to kind of give them some hope that just because they’re in the midst of the struggle right now, it doesn’t mean it’s always going to look that bad.”

Michael: I don’t want to embellish. I definitely still have OCD, but I would say I’ve gone from having crippling OCD back from ages 14 to 18 was really bad, and then in my early 20s right after college was really bad.

I’ve gone from that to much, much better. It’s much more manageable, and like you said, I can acknowledge what it is when I see it, as opposed to, it really took me so many years to even realize that the thoughts were completely irrational. I don’t know how many years I struggled with all of these thoughts until I realized, there’s a way to look at this and realize that some of my thoughts are totally normal and some of my thoughts make absolutely no sense at all.

I feel like once we get to that point, we’re definitely on the right track. I feel like that was a huge breakthrough. The second breakthrough for me was when, for some reason, the grace of God and the concept of grace just hit home. I listened to Dr. Tony Evans quite a bit, and he had I think it was a 10 or 11-part series on the magnificent grace of God. A few years ago, I was driving like crazy for many hours a week, and I just listened to those sermons over and over again and the crux of what he says is that the grace of God is unmerited favor, so it’s something we don’t deserve, which is great to an OCD person, because we think, “It’s my responsibility to fix the situation. That’s why we end up in these compulsive cycles, but grace eliminates that.

It’s for grace to exist, there has to be no payment for it. That’s a very freeing thing and he talks about it as an environment that is so foreign to us that it takes a long time to get used to and that was true for me. Like, I listened to them and I’m like, “The grace of God is real. It’s profound.”

This is the key to victory, but that doesn’t stop the engine still going in your brain right away. It took a long time. I listened to those sermons. I probably listened to each one at least five times, right? So that’s, what, 45 minutes each, 40 hours of just listening to “God is full of grace.” It’s hard to believe that in your heart and experience it.

He even talks about how if you move from America straight into a foreign country, everything is unnatural to you. Even going out to a meal is different. Making a phone call is probably not as easy as it is now just on your phone, you probably have to dial in some country code. Just everything. The clothing is different.

The culture’s different and he said, “That’s what grace is like.” When we realize, that it’s true, and we want to step into it, it takes a lot of getting used to. One, because it’s almost too good to be true, because the world never treats us with grace, right? Even just normal jobs, you perform and you get a raise.

If you’re off a little bit, well, we’re gonna ding you and we’re gonna notice that and relationships are the same way. Just to experience it with God takes a lot of telling yourself over and over again, essentially. You can definitely find victory and I think realizing how much God loves you, how much favor he has towards you, completely independent of your actions, is the number one thing.

It’s therapeutic to remind yourself, even just saying it right this minute. It’s just one more layer of reminding myself and experiencing that is a truth that I can speak to myself and to other people. I think that has been the most powerful thing. Essentially having a correct view of God just makes it so much easier to deal with.

Carrie: Oftentimes we project onto God, whether it’s been family members or past church leaders that may have had a little bit more of a strict view of God or harsher upbringing of God, or how we even see ourselves. I think sometimes if we don’t like ourselves and we struggle with shame and we can project that onto God, well God must not feel this way about me or that way about me. Really coming back to the true character of God and I appreciate you sharing that for so many people who are struggling today that victory doesn’t necessarily mean the elimination of all symptoms. It means that I know how to deal with these things now when they come up. I have somebody that I work with who will tell me, “This obsession came and I was like, here you are.I know who you are you’re back again,” and now is able to joke about it versus it being completely debilitating because she’s able to recognize that this is OCD. This is one of my themes that comes back around. I don’t have to totally freak out about this obsession like it wants me to. I’m just gonna like, I’m gonna move on with my life and keep doing the things that I love and want to do and are important to me.

Michael: That was very true in my life. I had a pretty harsh father, and he had a lot of great qualities, but he was definitely harsh with me specifically and I was never popular in school. I was bullied a lot. There were a lot of ways that seeing God incorrectly could show up in my developmental years for sure through those two major things. Also, having OCD probably exacerbated all of those problems, I would say, that’s why I think getting to see God correctly. We just have to constantly remind ourselves that that’s true. He is gentle and kind and loving and for us and not against us and full of favor towards us because we don’t feel that with OCD.

Carrie: I appreciate you sharing your story with us and also through your book, we’re going to put a link to that in the show notes and I’ve recommended it to some of my clients because I just feel like it’s very relatable and there’s some helpful information in there on just really examining your thought process. So thank you for coming on the show today.

Michael: Thanks so much.