Counseling – Page 8 – Carrie Bock – By The Well Counseling

Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast – One Therapist's Story of Discovering Her Scrupulosity OCD with Rachel Hammons

8. One Therapist’s Story of Discovering Her Scrupulosity OCD with Rachel Hammons

Written by Carrie Bock on January 7, 2021. Posted in Counseling, OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 8. One Therapist’s Story of Discovering Her Scrupulosity OCD with Rachel Hammons

What is Scrupulosity OCD?
How Rachel discovered she had been struggling with it
How to determine if this is a normal level of spiritual concern or could be OCD
Exposure and Response Prevention
Learning how to sit with discomfort and ambiguity
Getting to know the character of God and filtering information through that lens

Verses discussed: Phil 4:6, 2 Cor 10:5

Resources and links:
Rachel Hammons
More information on ERP and OCD

By The Well Counseling

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 8

Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 8

Hello, if you are new to the show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others.

Today on the show. I am interviewing Rachel Hammons. I did not know Rachel until I started doing some research for this podcast.

I wanted to talk with people who were struggling with anxiety or OCD and were Christian and also listen to podcasts. So I did probably almost 10 interviews with people and Rachel happened to be one of those people. I was able to glean so much valuable information that helped me in knowing what to put in the show. I ended up following up with Rachel a while later and just saying, “Hey, would you be willing to share your story on the podcast?” She graciously said yes.

Rachel Hammons is a counselor in the Nashville Metro area. She specializes in working with people who are struggling with OCD. She also struggles with OCD herself. [00:01:36] She is going to talk with us a little bit more about scrupulosity OCD, how it’s affected her life and how she came to find out that she had it, which is a very interesting story.

Without further ado, here is my interview with Rachel Hammons.

Carrie: So Rachel, tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you’re doing.

Rachel: I’m in Nashville, Tennessee. I’m licensed in the state of Tennessee. I’ve been working with a lot of individuals with OCD over the past year or so. As I’ve started to do more private practice work, I started off thinking I was going to go more like the trauma route. As I started to learn more about what OCD was I also started to actually see that in myself. I really found a passion for it. So doing my practice work with OCD.

Carrie: So you really didn’t recognize OCD traits within yourself until you were in school, studying OCD?

Rachel: Well, yes and no. I know we’re going to get a little bit into some of my story but I definitely recognized that there were what I would have called more type-A tendencies.

Even though I never really wanted to be a type-A person I always saw myself kind of “I want to go with the flow. Everything’s fine but then I had these really strong needs for structure, black and white thinking things that I would misunderstand, and a really big obsession with making sure that I was doing the absolute best and the absolute right thing.

I just always attributed that to, “I was very type A” or in the more nonchalant way like, “Oh, I’m so OCD.” Even though that phrase is not super helpful, but then after I do more of my professional life and after I graduated even in grad school, we covered OCD but it was more just their obsessions and compulsions, and usually related to like cleaning or going back and checking to make sure you didn’t hit someone with your car.

As I started to do more research and finding my niche with counseling, I’m learning more about what OCD was, especially the subtypes of OCD. This whole subtype called scrupulosity that had to do with moral and religious OCD. As I started to learn more about the symptoms and signs of that, I was like, “Oh my gosh. That’s me.”

Carrie: A lot of people don’t know that that exists. I’m glad that we’re talking about it today. A lot of times people do associate OCD with people that have an organized closet or that clean a bunch or are obsessed with germs. There are these different subtypes. We’re talking about scrupulosity, OCD. How would you kind of define that a little bit?

Rachel: First of all when it comes to OCD, there are several different subtypes that you can experience. There tends to be overlap between lots of them and any one person. I mean, typically you had kind of one or two that’s like those are your struggles, but it can vary over your lifespan. Each of them has kind of unique facets.

OCD in general is going to be comprised of obsessions and then usually followed by compulsion. So if you take that same model and you apply it to what we call scrupulosity, it’s going to be obsessions and then usually followed by compulsions all-around religious and moral issues.

What I think is interesting is you don’t have to be of a religious faith to have scrupulosity. Personally, I am and I would identify myself as a Christian, but there are lots of people who will still experience the obsessions. Again, usually followed by compulsion, but not always around these moral issues.

So in a nutshell, that’s what it is. There are a lot of specific symptoms and things that I’m sure we’re going to get into.

Carrie: How has this affected you personally?

Rachel: I’m actually really excited to share just a little bit about my story because as a counselor I don’t use a lot of self-disclosure, so I’m not sharing my story with all my clients. It’s a piece that I’ve learned about me within the past couple of years, a lot of people don’t know the whole story. So I kind of looked back in preparation for this, just at several different things that I noticed, like from my past, as well as some of the things that I’m still struggling with.

I’ll kind of start with looking back. As I said, there was a lot of black and white thinking. There was a lot of doubt and OCD is sometimes termed like the doubting disease. So I was definitely doubting like, “Is this right? Is this the best thing? Is this true?” I definitely liked some aspects about that, about myself because I like being able to really seek truth, but then OCD twists that, especially with scrupulosity and having it be so much of a mental obsession. It twists what is good and what is truth and what’s most important to you and turns that into this obsession. I know we’re going to get into a little bit later, what does support look like from other people.

Specifically, right now with the church and the environment I grew up in when you see a very studious, responsible kid that’s reading their scripture, that’s asking questions a lot of times, the initial thought is, “Oh wow. This kid is really on fire for God.”

There was a huge mental health component to that where I was like wrecked with anxiety over making sure I got the right answer. Some of the things that I look back on and some of them I kind of laugh about. The first one I’ll just tell you is I think the most obvious obsession and compulsion that I ever experienced. When we were younger, my mom had specific TV shows that we were allowed to watch and that we weren’t allowed to watch. There was never any really comparison like this one’s really bad or this one’s really good. It was just like, “these are the ones you can’t watch.” So one of those that I wasn’t allowed to watch was SpongeBob, but for some reason, in my head, SpongeBob became like the epitome of evil. My mind was just like SpongeBob is bad.

So initially you can start to see that black and white thinking, but where that would come up for me is at the time a lot of people had those SpongeBob flush toys in their car or the dice that you would hang from your rearview mirror. I remember specifically walking past cars as we’d get out to go to the grocery store and seeing those [00:08:43] and I had to say “I hate you” a certain number of times to SpongeBob to get rid of the evil. I thought it wasn’t necessarily super distressing unless there was a lot of SpongeBob or like SpongeBob was on at the doctor’s office. I felt so guilty and this evil was next to me. I had to keep saying, “I hate you. I hate you. I hate you.” Sometimes out loud, sometimes in my head.

Carrie: Sometimes I think people don’t realize that the compulsions can be internal. Their child may be struggling with something and they say, “I don’t think they’re really struggling with that” but they don’t realize what’s going on necessarily in that child’s head at those times.

Rachel: That’s I think is one of the reasons that OCD in general, but particularly scrupulosity tends to go really under noticed or underdiagnosed because what you see is this kid that’s working really hard to follow God or to follow even their schoolwork or obey their parents, but what you don’t see is the internal distress that kid is going through. Especially in my case, if you don’t know that that internal distress isn’t necessarily normal or doesn’t have to be that way, you just assume that that’s like what you’re supposed to be doing or that you’re more on fire for God than other people are. Not like in a judgment way, like I’m holier than now, but just in a way of like I’m really, really trying hard to know who God is and what he expects of me.

Carrie: It was just the water you swam in basically. You didn’t necessarily know anything different.

Rachel: Right. One of the ones that developed as I got a little bit older and one that I think is still fairly difficult for me is, I don’t know if you remember the verse it’s like the classic worry verse where it says, “Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, present your request to the Lord.” [00:10:48] I think this is an example of where OCD twists what is really good, and makes it very confusing. As I read that, I always read it as a command like my biggest fear just as a heads up was sinning. So my obsessions revolved around making sure that I didn’t cross whatever this random black and white line was, and making sure that I didn’t sin.

Other people with their scrupulosity can have things like “this is going to send me to hell, that’s my biggest fear,” “I have blasphemy.” Mine was specifically “did I sin or not?”

When I would read that verse, it was comforting in the sense that I knew God didn’t want me to worry, but I read it as don’t worry and this is the command. If you’re worrying, you’re sinning. The thing that I always struggled with was I couldn’t control my worry. I knew especially as I got older I can’t control my emotions. I can control what I do with my emotions, but my thoughts and my emotions are going to come into my head and yet still in the church, they talk about like, “if you’re worrying, give that over to God and then your worries go away.”

Carrie: “Take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ”, which I imagine is super challenging.

Rachel: Right. So I was trying to find and I am still trying to find this balance of God comforting me by saying, “Hey, you don’t have to worry because I’m here or is God saying “don’t worry.” I think that’s one of the ones where OCD is still like, “I don’t know. It might be a command.” And so if it’s a command, you better make sure you’re not worrying at the same time. I’m also like, “That doesn’t make any sense because I can’t control my worry. I’m doing my best.” So there’s still this struggle or I guess this fight of “am I sinning or not.”

Even though you know in your head what you feel is probably accurate, OCD still brings in that doubt and that tiny bit of doubt or that tiny bit of uncertainty is where the individual OCD tends to struggle the most because OCD says, “it’s better to be safe than to take that risk” and that risk is really big. So in my head, I’m like if I take that risk of don’t worry being kind or gentle or like you are okay instead of a command, then what if I start to just let myself worry and then I’m sinning. So it’s better just to not worry, which doesn’t exactly work.

Carrie: Right. I think another thing that’s important to point out is the compulsions provide some temporary relief, which makes it super hard not to engage in them. So it’s like, there’s this temporary relief but then the kind of feeding that cycle just ends up increasing the whole picture and making it worse. It’s hard because you want that momentary peace, I guess.

Rachel: Exactly. Which is what you see. I think the contamination aspect of OCD is where you see it most clearly. If I’m afraid that I’m contaminated by germs then my compulsion is to wash my hands. Washing my hands initially makes me feel like I’m clean from the germs, but then the OCD brings in doubt. That probably contaminated me so I have to wash my hands then and that probably contaminated me. So I have to wash my hands then. You see this cycle start to develop and actually changes in your brain start to develop where your fire alarm sense of anxiety is heightened.

If you look at the physiology of what’s going on in the brain in individuals with OCD and anxiety, that amygdala, that emotion center of the brain is actually hyperactive and it’s more active, more sensitive to things going wrong in our environment.

The way that I like to describe it is like it’s a broken fire alarm. [00:15:05] If my fire alarm is really great if there’s an actual fire, but if I’m cooking some steak and some steam gets up to the fire alarm and it goes off, that’s really annoying. So OCD is basically turning that fire alarm into something that is much more sensitive than it needs to be. Then as you follow that pathway of these obsessions and compulsions that pathway gets stronger and stronger and that fire alarm continues to be heightened and heightened.

If you apply that to scrupulosity individuals with OCD, their brains are going to get more and more sensitive to this potential, like times that I might be sinning or fears that I did something that angered God. If you aren’t able to resist those compulsion’s or practice ERP in a way that is helpful, not overwhelming, but helpful, those portions and that connection between the two is just going to get stronger and stronger.

ERP basically just says we’re going to restructure that so that the pathway isn’t as strong, but that ultimately means you’re not doing the compulsion, which is what calms you in the first place.

Carrie: Right. ERP stands for exposure and response prevention. So how does that work?

Rachel: ERP in general, like you said is exposure and response prevention. Basically, there’s two aspects to it. There’s the exposure piece. The part of exposing myself systematically in a way that’s not overwhelming to my system, but systematically exposing myself to what I’m afraid of in my case, potentially sinning.

The response-prevention is basically asking you to stop doing the compulsion. So you expose yourself to the thing you’re afraid of. You also take away the safety net of the compulsions and you do those simultaneously again in a systematic way so that eventually you learn one anxiety isn’t dangerous.

Anxiety is going to go up and it’s eventually going to come back down or at least I’m going to be able to tolerate the distress of the anxiety and that whatever my OCD said was actually so fearful is probably not as fearful as OCD made it up to be in my head. That being said, I think there’s one really important piece when it comes to scrupulosity, for example, contamination OCD. If I’m really afraid of mud getting on me and I think mud is contaminated in any environment, touching mud is going to be something that brings up anxiety.

When you talk about scrupulosity, you’re not only dealing with these obsessions and compulsions, but you’re dealing with something that’s so central to what this person believes is right and wrong. You’re dealing with this core value. If I asked somebody to do something that’s against their core value, which is not what ERP promotes, but if you misunderstand it and I asked them to do what I might think is a sin, I’m essentially creating this moral injury. That’s not treating the OCD, but instead eliciting this potential sense of shame and going down this I just have to do what’s wrong.

ERP instead promotes sitting with that uncertainty piece. So the obsessions where I’m really concerned, “is this a sin?” “Is it not?” “I’m not sure where’s the line”. We’re kind of coming up to that line and playing around with it a little bit, to sit with that uncertainty to recognize there’s probably not a line at all, but again, in a way that’s not violating this person’s sense of right and wrong. I feel like that was a little confusing.

Carrie: It is. For example, if you’re having a fear and uncertainty about sinning, does that look like going a couple miles over the speed limit? Does it look like sitting with the sense of, “what is this right or wrong” or just sitting with that anxiety for a little bit and not trying to avoid it?

Rachel: Yes and no. Everyone experiences their scrupulosity or their OCD a little bit differently. For some people, if they also have the core fear of not sinning, that OCD tends to fixate on certain aspects of not sinning. So there may be certain aspects in your life that you’re totally okay with uncertainty, but then OCD is going to take certain ones and be like, “this is the one you’re going to focus on.”

I think where you can start to differentiate, is this OCD, or is this a legit thing I need to kind of explore.

Stepping back just a little bit, one thing I like to talk about with my clients is this difference between information seeking and reassurance seeking, meaning when I’m looking at if I sin or not, am I going through that scenario in a way that’s not anxiety-provoking like I’m just thinking, “Okay, is this a sin? I’m not sure. I think I need to do some more research. I think I want to reread that passage in the Bible. I think I just want to understand” and that’s not an anxiety-driven cycle. That’s just like, “I want to understand and I want to grow closer to God in the way that I’m acting” and that’s good.

When it becomes reassurance-seeking, it’s usually this anxiety-fueled like, “I’ve got to see if I did it wrong. I’m not sure I might’ve. Let me read the passage. Let me read the passage again. Let me double-check.” Holding those two is one way you can assess if it’s OCD or just an issue that needs to do a little bit more research on, [00:21:07] or is it a little bit of both.

Carrie: So often they have a tendency to seek reassurance from the people that are closest to them. That could look like a parent or a spouse or with some of these types of things that may be even a pastor or a church leader. I think that’s why I’m so excited that we’re doing this to open up that conversation.

[00:21:27] There maybe somebody listening to this who’s been providing a lot of reassurance and not realizing that that person may have OCD.

Rachel: Right. So like you said if that looks like you going to a pastor to check like, “Hey, is this a sin? Did I mess up?” or going to your parents, “Hey, was this wrong? Is this okay?” Those are good questions, but OCD is going to bring in not only are you asking that question the one time, but it’s going to bring up this doubt and this doubt it tends to also be followed along with, for me personally, like “where is that exact line between this is right and this is wrong? By asking that question over and over again, maybe I’ll get a certain total response. Maybe I’ll get a certain phrase and response and that lets me know everything is okay. Whereas when I’m information seeking, I’m not looking for a specific response, I’m just wanting to learn more.

Carrie: I think it’s good to normalize. There is a normal level of doubt within group identity. “Am I saved?” I hope we all ask that of ourselves once or twice in our lives. Is there evidence in my life? Is this situation right or wrong? Are they moral things? Does God love me or not? Those types of things are normal doubts, but then what you’re talking about is something that’s repetitive and it’s very anxiety-provoking and ongoing.

Rachel: Right. In some ways I wish that there was like a list of this is what scrupulosity is and this is exactly how you treat it. Like you were saying earlier some people are obsessing over like, “Did I go a couple of miles over the speed limit?” Scrupulosity shows up and OCD shows up very differently for different people. The way that you treat it while ERP tends to be fairly foundational for every person, that’s going to look a little bit different. For me, when I challenged myself with recognizing the signs that come up, it’s usually like am I analyzing for doubt? Is there a lot of doubt going on? How long have I been thinking about whether or not I’m sinning? Because usually If you sin, you’re able to look back and probably within five minutes, you’re able to assess like, “Yeah, that wasn’t good” or “that wasn’t right.”

I find going back and forth and back and forth. I’m starting to obsess. [00:24:06] I’m like, “Am I thinking about this really, really black and white? Am I looking for the line between what was right and what was wrong” How anxious am I? Am I anxious to find the answer right now?”

One thing I talk about with my clients a lot is when our anxiety goes up, our judgment or our ability to make rational decisions naturally comes back down. So if I’m feeling really, really anxious, it’s going to be really hard to think about rationally and systematically what I need to do about that anxiety. So if I’m really, really anxious about finding the answer to whether or not I sin it’s going to be really hard to even systematically look at. So instead, I need to maybe take a break and let that anxiety naturally come down. If I’m still worried about it after the fact, maybe I can come back and revisit it, but if it kind of went away, that was probably an indication that it was OCD.

Carrie: I think that’s a good first step obviously with making any behavior change. We have to recognize what we’re dealing with. [00:25:14]

I’m sure you’ve seen this in your practice and I’ve seen it in my practice as well. It’s very common for people to believe that they have generalized anxiety disorder or they may have been to other counselors who have diagnosed them with an anxiety disorder. As we start to dig and ask more questions like, “Hey, do you seek out reassurance from other people in your life?” Or “Do you tend to get stuck on these certain things?” Some of the people recognize, like, “Oh wait, this is not anxiety. This is OCD.” At some level that can be overwhelming, but at some level, it can be freeing.

Rachel: When I read through some of the signs and symptoms of what scrupulosity, what OCD was, there was so much relief in that. Just knowing that you’re not crazy. You’re not totally out there. You’re not dealing with something in isolation. It’s normal in the sense that it’s OCD normal and there’s treatment for it. I don’t have to consistently live with this overwhelming anxiety over whether I’m doing the absolute best thing or the absolute right thing. [00:26:37] That’s going to involve some anxiety in the process.

Going back to what you said, I think what’s really tricky sometimes in the counseling world is assessing, is this anxiety or is it OCD? And while the two have a lot of similarities, obviously each case is different, but with anxiety, you can provide coping skills. Something that’s going to help bring my anxiety back down. “I’m really anxious.” “I’m going to practice deep breathing.” “I’m going to practice grounding skills.” If I do that with OCD, I’m actually not exposing myself to the fear. That’s probably not realistic.

I’m never actually sitting with the uncertainty because I’m just trying to reduce the anxiety cost from the uncertainty. So you kind of get caught again in a loop of, you can almost ride the line between either you’re doing your compulsion to bring the anxiety down, or you’re doing your new coping skill to bring the anxiety down. Then you never actually face and fight and deal with the anxiety that isn’t even necessarily over something realistic. Meaning my anxiety over is this right? Is this wrong? Where’s the line? Am I sitting right now? If I don’t sit with that uncertainty of, I don’t know, I’m not sure I might’ve sinned. Instead, if I try to beat that with coping skills and try to calm that anxiety down, that anxiety is just going to get stirred up the next day, because that’s what OCD does. It brings in that doubt. It brings in that “what if.”

While there are a lot of similarities and while coping skills are even helpful with OCD at times, to know that difference is really important and really crucial because your treatment is going to be a little bit different.

Carrie: Absolutely. With the ERP, there’s an exposure hierarchy, and you’re not going to expose somebody to their worst fear in the beginning. You’re kind of building up to some of those things because I think some people may be listening to this and going like, “Oh gosh, that feels too big to sit with that anxiety.”

Obviously, if there are counselors who are trained in this, who know how to walk you step-by-step through that process to get there. It’s also working sometimes in tandem with other people or providing guidance to the clients of how their parents, spouses, or whoever might be able to respond to them in a helpful way.

[00:29:13] Sometimes that means holding off on the reassurance seeking that’s part of the response prevention.

Rachel: Right. I think that a lot of times we think If I just calm this person down if I reassure them if I tell them everything’s okay. Naturally, that’s what we want to do, to comfort somebody, but in reality, there’s a level of uncomfortableness that is so crucial to sitting with to be able to recognize that my OCD was way over exaggerating this fear. There are times where my fear is really legitimate and I’m still obsessing over it in a way that’s taking over my life. So again, sitting with a certain level of uncomfortableness is huge in learning how to treat and sit with OCD.

I guess I’ll use a contamination example cause I think it’s a little simpler. If my biggest fear is sitting in the room with the dog, like maybe I had a bad experience, I’m not going to ask my client to go sit in the room with the dog and play with it for an hour. Instead, I might have them sit, look at a picture of a dog and practice that over and over again. I might have them listen to a dog barking and practice that over and over again because exposures don’t have to be this huge and overwhelming. Not to say that the anxiety itself is dangerous because even if you do get overwhelmed by an exposure, that’s okay.

The anxiety isn’t dangerous. It’s just flooding your system like that. It’s probably not going to be super helpful. So finding systematic ways to work up to getting the life that you want to get is really what you’re going for. If you have a scale of zero to seven, seven is like the fullest anxiety I can have. Zero is fine. You want to find with exposure that starts around a level three or four. So something hard but manageable.

If I was to give you one more example, like in my own life, one of the things that I dealt with a lot as a kid, and it kind of died down for a while and it’s recently come back over the past probably year. I have this phrase or this compulsive phrase that I have to say and it’s, “God, please help me to do the right thing” and that falls in line with a lot of my “I don’t want to sin, I need to do the best right thing, the absolute right thing.”

So whenever I feel a little bit anxious even if I think I might’ve sinned or even if I just am feeling anxious because I have to get up early the next morning, I’ll say, “God, please help me to do the right thing.”

For some reason, that phrase helps bring that anxiety down, even though it becomes really compulsive. The phrase itself starts to make me anxious because I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I keep saying it over and over again” and I don’t need to.

If I was to look at my own hierarchy, I know that if I was not to say that phrase it would make me anxious, but it wouldn’t make me overwhelmed. It would work because it comes up honestly, a lot but eventually I know that anxiety will ultimately kind of dissipate, but right now my brain is still kind of stuck in that loop of “this is just naturally, this is automatic.” So if that gives you just any example of where you might start on your hierarchy, that’s probably where I’d start on the line.

Carrie: Great. Good to know. So how can support systems, spouses, churches help someone who’s struggling with OCD?

Rachel: First of all, I think I’d recommend counseling, but secondly, being able to recognize that the kid who is really perfectionistic on the surface, really diligent, really seeking hard to make sure they understand the right thing. Just checking in like, “Hey, what’s it like for you as you’re trying to understand more about scripture?” Even just asking like, “Is there ever an anxiety that you experienced?” So knowing that the kids who are much more like perfectionistic have a hard time with, I guess, hard time accepting uncertainty, noticing gray areas. All of those could potentially be signs. They may not be an issue for that kid and that’s fine too. Then you start to dig a little bit deeper under the surface and you recognize, “Oh, that kid is actually really struggling with anxiety.” It might just be good to kind of like, “Hey, have you ever thought about what it would be like if you didn’t have anxiety?” “Is that a possibility like a world that you want to live in?”

I think the easiest people to inform or that I think would be really great to know a little bit more about OCD would be the people in the church, the leaders in the church because if they can recognize what is going on I think we’re going to be able to identify scrupulosity a lot easier.

I think that you see a lot of it again. I said earlier, underdiagnosed going on in the church and then parents too, especially if your kids are seeking reassurance all the time, that can be a really big indication. Even in schools, like noticing, “Hey, this kid is really struggling when they make a mistake on their test.”

So any place that those people are in all the time if you can recognize those signs and then just kind of give a quick check-in and then knowing the resources, knowing somebody who is in the counseling world who does treat OCD, who does know ERP is going to be like your best bet.

Carrie: Right. So really just supporting that person and that, “Hey, it’s okay to get counseling.” Sometimes we need help that’s professional to help us work through some of these things.

Rachel: Right. There are also several books that you can look into that’s more of like a self-help book, it’s by Dawn Huebner. It’s something like when your brain gets stuck. That’s more of a kid’s guide to working through OCD and so if the signs are really minimal or even if your kid is on the younger side, and you’re just starting to see some of these signs, like exploring what that looks like, it could be a really great resource. At least a good first step to see if that’s all the support that they need.

Carrie: At the end of every podcast, I usually ask guests to share a story of hope, which is the time that they received hope from God or another person.

Rachel: I think that there’s a lot of little moments of hope for me. Looking back on my story like I mentioned earlier, the biggest piece of hope for me was learning the fact that I had OCD. That was eye-opening and huge. I also know that one of the biggest pieces of hope too that I had is if you’re a Christian or if you’re a religious faith reflecting on who you think God is, or even doing some research on not necessarily this specific event, this specific sin, this specific fear, but who is God?

I can learn more about the character of God, and I know that times that I’ve learned more about the character of God the way that Jesus treated people, that’s going to look vastly different than the way that my thoughts tend to speak to me. So when I reflect on who God is, or at least even if that’s a question cause sometimes I’m like, “I don’t know who God is” like, I don’t know how He responds.

Just reflect on something that you know about God. I know that God is love. So if God is love, He loves me and He wants the best for me. So at least I know that I have that support. I have that hope that God just any parents are loving their kids, God wants the best for His kids. God wants the best for me. So at least in that, I know that I have someone on my side that’s walking through OCD or walking through my struggles with me. I think that’s kind of what I tend to reflect on especially when I’m really stuck in the obsessions and I really don’t see an end to this particular one, reflecting back on what you know, grounding yourself in what you know to be true.

Carrie: Right. I think that may be hard for some people to sit with and wrestle with because there’s a sense of, “I do love God. I am trying to serve him with my life and be a good Christian all of those things and yet I’m wrestling with this on a day-to-day basis.”

I’m just kind of curious what you would say to someone with that thought process.

Rachel: One of the biggest struggles for me is making sure that I was doing the right thing. Even in that compulsive phrase that I talked about, like, “God help me to do the right thing.” I’m consistently trying to understand this situation, this particular anxiety. What I tell a lot of clients, honestly, at the beginning of some of our sessions is OCD is really confusing, scrupulosity is really confusing, especially scrupulosity because it’s so foundational to our thoughts and I want to do the right thing so badly.

[00:39:12] So it can get really easy to think about and to get lost in all of the things that I don’t yet have, or that I don’t yet know, or I don’t yet know how to fight. So one, I like to paint a picture of how ERP works, counseling works.

There’s hope. There’s a lot of hope with OCD at the same time remembering the things that you do know. Like I mentioned a little bit earlier, reflecting on, even if it’s not like God’s character still what are some of the things that are your strongholds? What are you anchored in? Maybe I can anchor into the fact that I know I’m saved. Maybe I can anchor into the fact again that I know God is. At least I can take that of the very phrase from the Bible and know exactly what this says, God is love. I can ground myself in that. I can ground myself in even knowing the people around me that I have as my support systems. I can ground myself in knowing that at least I have the letter from God, the scripture in my head.

So going back to at least what you know while you don’t know everything, you know, some things, and it’s gotten you this far. So can we start there and know that there’s hope to build on from there.

Carrie: I think that’s relevant to so many people, not just people who are experiencing OCD, but anxiety, or even just a traumatic experience or a hard season in your life. I know that there have been times where I’ve gone through difficult things and exactly what you said, “Okay. What do I know?” I don’t understand this situation in my life at all. I don’t know why God allowed it here, but I do believe that God loves me. I do believe he has a plan somehow in the midst of all this mess like that, He’s gonna take this and make something good out of it and that really helped me get through that until that was resolved.

Rachel: Yeah. There’s one moment, I guess, that I like to reflect on and this, I guess has a little bit less to do with OCD, but more of just one of the most profound moments that I felt like I had with the Lord. I remember it was when I was in high school, maybe early college. I was preparing for leading a Bible study that night and The Lord had really laid this passage on my heart. I don’t remember what the passage was, but I remember just wanting to know really badly what it meant. I was really confused because there’s a lot of different religions that interpret that passage differently and so I was like, “I’m going to learn what this passage means that I’m going to figure it out and we’re going to talk about it in Bible study.”

So I was like spending probably a couple of hours reading this passage, reading research on the passage, trying to understand. Even then, I guess you can see some of the OCD of like, I have to miss out and I have to figure out the right and wrong answer between it. And I got so, so frustrated because I couldn’t figure out the answer and I wanted to have it for the Bible study. I went outside and I was about to start doing even more research to understand it. I just kind of felt like the Lord say, “Hey, wait, wait, wait, can we pause here?” I remember looking up at the trees cause I was on a back deck that was a screened-in porch and I just felt like the Lord was saying, “Hey, Rachel, look at the trees around you” and I was like, “Okay, so I’m looking and I’m seeing them blow in the wind” and the Lord was like, “Do you see them blowing in the wind back and forth like that?” I was like, “yes.” I was kind of blown away that I was having this conversation with God. The Lord was like, “Do you know, like how I did that? I was like, “No, I don’t know how you made the trees move” and he’s like, “Do you know all of the intricacies of exactly what type of wind and what exactly, what type of molecules and atoms and particles that went into me being able to move those trees back and forth?” And I was like, “no” and he was like, “but you know that I was the one behind it” and I was like, “Oh, yeah.”

So for some reason, hearing that the Lord even though I didn’t understand how the trees were moving, I knew that the Lord was behind it. I know that God is good. I know that He knows the answer, even though I don’t. I kind of took that and I felt like the Lord brought me back to that passage that I didn’t understand.

God was like, “Today may not be the day that you’re going to understand that, but you know that I know the answer and you know that you’re trying to know the answer and that’s okay. Because you know that I know the answer and you are following me. You can just keep following me and eventually, we’re going to get somewhere then we may never know the answer to this specific one, but you at least know that I know, and if you can trust me, you can follow me to the end.”

So that’s I guess kind of my message of hope too for OCD, in general, is if you’re religious or not, like, who are you following? Where are you walking? Where do you want to be in your future?

If you’re religious and you know that God is good and that you’re following Him, at least, you know, that you’re following somebody who knows what they’re doing. That helped me a lot.

Carrie: Awesome. Thank you so much for being brave and bold and sharing your story and what you’ve been through. I hope that really helps and encourages someone else today.

Rachel: Thank you for the opportunity. Just to be able to share some of my story is really exciting for me.

_____________________________________________________________.

I am so thankful for Rachel being willing to be so vulnerable with us and talk about her symptoms and how OCD has affected her. This is actually the second person on the show that has talked about exposure and response prevention. I’m a little bit frustrated with myself only because I’ve been wanting to talk about EMDR and how it can be helpful for OCD.

I know that I’m going to have some episodes in the future on EMDR and how EMDR can be helpful for OCD. Even though it is not a therapeutic approach that most people think of when they think of OCD treatment, I plan on doing a solo episode in the future regarding why I have chosen to utilize EMDR prior to using any type of exposure-response prevention methods with clients.

If you find that interesting, stay tuned in for later. I just want to throw that out there that exposure and response prevention is oftentimes the recommended therapy for OCD, but it’s not the only thing that works. So I’ll dive more into that in a future podcast. Just wanted to throw that out there.

[00:46:19] Until next time let’s continue this conversation on Facebook or Instagram, or you can always reach me at hopeforanxietyandocd.com

Hope for Anxiety and. OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

6 Factors to Consider Before Searching for a Counselor

Written by Carrie Bock on December 31, 2020. Posted in Anxiety, Blog, Counseling, OCD.

Note of clarification: In this article, I am using the terms counselor and therapist interchangeably to refer to a provider who is trained and licensed by the state to practice. I am not referring to someone who may engage in counseling or counseling techniques who has not been formally trained to practice professionally.

If you want to find a doctor, there are several ways you could approach this. You could ask a friend, check the insurance website, the doctor’s website, or read reviews. Finding a therapist comes with unique challenges. I have listed the important factors to consider when finding a therapist below. Understanding this information helps you know what information to cover in the initial phone call or email when reaching out to a therapist.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast – Not sure about Therapy?

9. Not Sure About Therapy? Try it on! with Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on December 30, 2020. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 9. Not Sure About Therapy? Try it on! with Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP

Different therapist personalities and styles
Demystifying therapy
Finding the therapist who is the right fit
Different kinds of therapies that therapist utilize such as CBT, DBT, IFS, Psychodynamic or Play Therapy
Erica’s experience with mental health in the African American church
Seeing a counselor of a different race

Resources and links:
Erica Kesse, Your Goal Concierge
Try on Therapy
Mental Health Marketing Conference

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 9

Hope for Anxiety and OCD. Episode 9

Today, we are talking to Erica Kessee who is a good friend of mine and fellow entrepreneur. She is going to share with us something that she created called Thrive on Therapy. I’ll let her tell you more about that.

One thing that I want you to pick up, hopefully from this conversation is an understanding that there are many different types of counselors and many different personalities of counselors.

There are many different counseling approaches that those counselors utilize and this can really help you if you’re processing, searching for a counselor, or what you might need from a counselor. And of course, I couldn’t have Erica on the show and not ask her about her experience with racial issues and mental health in the black church, but I was not prepared for what she was going to say.

So let’s go ahead and dive into this episode with Erica.

Carrie: Miss Erica, you and I used to share an office space together, right?

Erica: It was a blessing because another colleague told me about you and that you had an office. I was so excited because I was able to be in a space and start my practice in my own office and it was ready for me to hang my shingle.

Carrie: Yeah and we have to let people understand that this office space was very small and you somehow found a way to make it super cute and homey and you had someone help you decorate. It was adorable, very adorable.

Erica: I was very proud of my space, loved my little space, my little couch. When you will listen to a decorator, they work wonders. So it’s just like, “you paid me.” So cozy and sweet.

Carrie: One of my favorite Erica stories that I have to tell is that we have a lot of things in common. We have really a passion for people getting really good help and treatment and reducing stigma. We have no problem talking about difficult issues, but our temperaments are a little bit different in terms that I’m kind of quiet and somber and calm and Erica is exciting, exuberant, and full of energy and life. That was very interesting. There would be times where I just go down to your end of the hall and just kind of gently turn up the sound machine. Do you remember that?

Erica: Yes. When I was working in community mental health and in other places when there’s other people around, it’s always been noted that I am having a great time in my session and I am laughing, enjoying the time that I spent with the people who are in the room with me and it is outside of the room and so it made the sound machine to be brought up a little higher.

Carrie: I think that’s an interesting thing cause we’re going to get into this a little bit later about different therapists having different personalities and different fits. There’s just kind of a little intro of one example of that, but tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today professionally.

Erica: I am Erica Kessee, a CEO and founder of Your Goal Concierge. I also have a service within Your Goal Concierge called Thrive on Therapy. Your Goal Concierge Mission is to provide services, support, enhancement, and encouragement to those who are in helping professions. Counselors, coaches, nurses, frontline people who had to go out of the house even in the middle of quarantine. Those are people that I serve and people who are trying to create businesses, try on therapy as a service specifically because I have a master’s in clinical mental health counseling and civic leadership.

I wanted to make sure that individuals, both the public had the right fit for their therapy and that therapists had opportunities for networking opportunities to show their craft and opportunities to offer services to others and show what they’re good at and to make sure that individuals are with them. Every counselor coach knows this person is like the perfect client for me because they have a lot of the same story that you have.

You understand how to work with them and get them to the next level. It is an immersive learning experience for individuals. So individuals who have the temporary license, which that’s what I have, or a master’s in clinical mental health counseling can provide this immersive learning experience to people so they can at least get a taste of therapy because there’s a lot of stigma associated with getting mental health services.

Carrie: Right. I remember you came by my office one day and you were so excited and you were like, “Carrie, you try on clothes?” And I was like, “at the store” and I was like, “yeah”. She was like, “what if you could try on therapy?” And I was like, “What in the world are you talking about? This is a little out there, Erica. I don’t know about all this.”

Tell us about how that originated because you did actually create this for the mental health marketing conference originally, right?

Erika: Yes. Exactly. So for the mental health marketing conference, I started going to the conference while I was at Lipscomb. I went to get my master’s in clinical, both masters from Lipscomb University. There was an opportunity as a student to go to the mental health marketing hub. I got there and I looked around and I saw all the marketers and I thought, where are the clinicians? They don’t have a seat at this table when they’re supposed to be marketing for mental health services. Only the clinicians know how to market to the people they’re trying to bring in the doors. And so I spoke to the founder, which was an Austin parent about incorporating more clinicians. I did speak the next year and it was that third year that we spoke about having clinicians at the table. Then the third year was, hey, we’re going to actually pilot trial therapy and let these marketers experience therapy because they had never experienced therapy. They have no idea how they are going to be marketing something they’ve never experienced.

Everybody else gets something free. If somebody is in the market, they get a product for free. So they can say, I buy into this product. Like a sample, that’s what trial data is. It’s a sample of therapy and the sample is actually not watered down or anything, but we call it an immersive learning experience because we don’t want to say it’s therapy. It’s just a crucial relationship. So you don’t want to say that you’re entering into that relationship until you’re truly entering into a relationship with a person that’s going to be taking you to the level you need to go to according to your treatment plan. So we offered it and at that time we asked Carrie, even though I went over there to her office, I was actually trying to get her to come to be a trial therapist.

I’m always a connector. I’m always thinking about opportunities to reel people in and Carrie was one of the child therapists that year. I can’t remember the numbers. I do have an annual report. If anybody is interested in it, you can reach out to me for it. I have the numbers in there. With every person that we did have, every person that I met was there also exhibiting. I did have a conversion of a person that stayed with me from that conference that very first time.

Every single year we’ve done trial therapy there and they asked us to come back every year, try on therapy in there because there are marketers, people who’ve never experienced it. There it’s just valuable and this makes sense to me.

Carrie: Now you’ve expanded to other places and it’s not just for the conference and it’s not just for marketers, what other locations have you been to where you’ve utilized this?

Erica: Because of the specificity of the middle half marketing conference so we went to the Sexual Assault Center here in Nashville, Tennessee. They were talking about a particular thing that could trigger individuals. There was a therapist there who could be available for anyone that was triggered but then we also provided sessions at the end of the conference.

I closed two people from that. When I say closed, they converted into clients. I went to the sexual assault center twice. After the second time doing the mental health marketing conference, I met a lady with HCA health corporations in America, and they had a hiring event at top golf, which is a place where people can do golf and shoot there.

Carrie: They’re trying to hit a target right, the golf ball into a target. I’ve never done it before, but it doesn’t look like much.

Erica: It’s a cool place. So we went there and we provided group therapy. We had therapists there, they wanted a group, they wanted to hit as many people as possible and so we did three 30 minute group sessions on self-care. The topic of self-care was amazing. I had a wonderful time. They’re going to invite us back next year. As soon as someone tries it, even like it’s so fun in trial therapy, usually, you convert them to a client. When a corporation tries this trial therapy then they usually want me to come back every year to continue to do it for the individuals that they’re serving.

Carrie: it’s been a great success for you. I think it’s opened a lot of people’s minds to what therapy is. Maybe people have ideas that it’s something mystical or they’re really uncomfortable about it like it’s this big mystery like, “what in the world do you do in there?”

Erica: That’s part of our marketing. What happens behind those closed doors. A part of the marketing is also learning the product of therapy. The product of therapy is sitting with that therapist. The therapist is the product. You need to have a relationship with that person and get the right fit with that person. So I recommend you not just meet someone and say, “Okay, I’m going to go through therapy with that person.”

I feel like you should shop around, there’s a sample here and a sample there of how they flow, how it feels in the session, what things they say, and the methods that they will like to show you. Mainly, I would have to say how it feels, because if you’re doing some transference or anything else, which is when you feel some feelings about this person and you’ve never met them, but they bring up things in you that are not so good, then you don’t need it. Then you don’t need that therapist. You need to get somebody else.

Carrie: You mean if they remind you of your mother who you got a strained relationship with it may not be the best fit.

Erica: Not a good fit.

Carrie: Talk about that a little bit, because I think a lot of times people approach finding a therapist like they would a doctor like, “Okay, well maybe who’s in my insurance network or who’s the person that’s within the 10-mile radius of me and looking for a therapist really needs to be a very different process than that.

Erica: Oh my goodness Carrie I just had a bright idea and maybe we should collaborate on that. Oh, I’m sorry. This is how I am, but yes it shouldn’t be a different process and you’re right.

Let’s talk through that process now. It can’t be that way. That’s why when your insurance gives you a list, they give you a list. The list is pretty big.

You need to go through and call through. First of all, if they don’t call, if they don’t call you back or they call you back, like three months later, then you know, it’s not a good fit. There’s some issue that’s there that you don’t mean to keep pursuing but also the whole insurance rate also, the radius is maybe a problem as well. It’s like you have to decide that this is life or death.

A lot of times people don’t see our mental health, our brains, and our emotional health as a life and death situation, but it is because most of the time when people come to us, it’s a conflict that’s happened. That’s just during a crisis. So sometimes holding onto this crisis for years and then finally it just boils over and they’re finally reaching out. You can’t decide that it’s going to have to be with the person within a radius or the first person that you get to answer the phone.

Carrie: I think the process of finding a therapist is really important and I can only share from my own personal experience of finding a therapist. There was one period of my life where I really wanted to see a female therapist. I thought that person is going to be someone who I would feel more comfortable with. I don’t feel comfortable with talking with a male right now, but then after I went through some other things. I was really looking to get back into the dating world after my divorce and I just said, “I want to talk to a male about this because I feel like I need that perspective.”

I need that opposite sex perspective of some things that I’m dealing with or some questions that I have and that was just so helpful. So even sometimes that male or female distinction, sometimes people feel more comfortable with a younger therapist. Sometimes people feel more comfortable with an older therapist and don’t feel bad because maybe it sounds kind of superficial like, “Oh, I’m ruling that person out because they’re too old or they’re too young, but it’s who you’re going to be able to connect with personally. Other people are going to be able to connect with that other therapist personally. So it’s okay.

Erica: It is. I’m so happy you’re affirming and confirming that it is okay to have your preferences. Just like right now because I’ll have to say black awareness and racial awareness that’s happening, I’ve gotten more people contact me who are black or people of color because they need counseling, but also because they are reaching out to someone that looks like them. And so it’s important to decide to pick who you want. Even somebody that looks like you may not be a good fit either. You need the right temperament.

I know I need an action-oriented counselor. I don’t want one to just sit there with me because I will take over the session just like right now. Carrie knows what she’s up to. So like, I need someone that’s going to say, “This is your homework. This is what you need to do.” Give me some parameters. I need some CBT DBT. Well, let me explain those things, cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy. So I need these things for myself. I know that.

Carrie: Sure. Those types of interventions are helpful for you.

Erica: So that’s something to think about too when you’re trying on therapy is the structure. What is the structure that works best for you? Especially in a trial therapy session, you can always ask a therapist about internal family systems or psychoanalytic therapy or EMDR or like I specialize in plant expressive arts therapy. So talk through what that looks like.

So it’s, it’s good to kind of build your many, a listing of things that maybe sounds like something you want to try. You can talk through that. For example, when you’re talking about male and female thing. One of the people who came and did the mental health marketing conference was an exhibitor there, so she wasn’t a marketer. She worked in one of the nonprofits. She wanted to test out or try out a male. So she was able to check out one of the males there. I try to have it at the conference, like blubber city, diversity, and males. They’re scarce.

They really are. I had actually a black male. She was able to meet with him and she was the one that converted to see me because she got a taste of him. It didn’t fit and be with me and we did great work. So she did get that out of her system. She understands a male, isn’t a good fit for her.

So then she decided to try something else, which was great.

Carrie: I think it’s important to you that once you talk with a therapist, whether that’s over the phone or once you meet with them in person, they may be diving into certain topics because of their training and their worldview and how they were trained as a therapist.

Specific different types of therapy, just like Erica was talking about earlier that that person may be kind of guiding you down a path that you might not want to go to. So they may be an insight-based therapist. And you may say, I need an action step or vice versa. Maybe you’re not ready for an action step and you’re just going to therapy because you’re trying to learn about yourself. Maybe I’m very upfront that I’m very interested in people’s past and trauma and difficult experiences that they’ve had because that’s the lens that I work from, but not everybody is like that. Some people will say, I don’t want to hear about your childhood.

I just want to know what’s going on right now. And so it’s important to know those distinctions in terms of finding a fit. If you find someone that’s going in one direction, it’s okay for you to say, you know, I think I’d really like to go a different direction, or I thought we were going to talk about this instead, or this is important to me right now.

You have that power as the client.

Erica: Yes, Carrie. I’m very expressive. So yes, it is definitely about the relationship that you have with the person that you’re working with. You have to take ownership of your session. I’ll have to say this in a medical field too a lot of people are not taking ownership of all of their doctor’s appointments as well.

But with counselors, you’d say, “Hey, I want to work on this because they’re supposed to be building your treatment plan according to what you need and what you think your goal is. That’s one reason why my organization is called Your Coal Concierge. I’m your goal concierge. I’m going to help you with your goal.

It’s just important to have that relationship and speak up for yourself. There’s no power differential between you and your therapist. They are an expert in what they’re expert in. So they do understand that because they got the master’s degree, but you’re the expert on you and they’re there to help you work through and deal with and support you and where you’re going.

Carrie: I love this conversation but I also want to move on because I know there’s some other things I want to ask you about.

What is your spiritual background and how would you describe your spiritual identity today?

Erica: Okay. I have to talk about the past a little bit in order to get to today and I won’t be long-winded.

I grew up in Missionary Baptist Church then went to Full Gospel. That’s where I learned about my relationship with God. I didn’t learn much about it before, but once asked about the relationship with God it’s like my eyes were open to the possibilities of this beautiful connection.

That’s father. That’s just for me and for other people too. The relationship that I have is just for me and God. I could ask for whatever I want and it just blows my mind. I also believe that God lives inside of me and I’m still grateful too because I’m also I’m Christian too. So I believe in Jesus.

I need a savior as well, but you can tell that it’s like, people go through things and they may have got a family that taught them to do things a certain way and they just go along with it, I decided to do my way. According to me, thinking through and deciding that this best works best for me to, to be Christian and believe in Jesus.

And then I am also very spiritual because I really take a whole to that part of God living inside of me. So if God lives inside of me, then I got a source to everything.

Carrie: I’m curious what your experience has been in black Christian community surrounding mental health treatment.

Erica: I had a group that I was trying to promote that never really happened because people are not ready to have this conversation.

People are not. It’s not just black churches too. I went to some Church of Christ to do some things and try to do some things. I’ve noticed that it really doesn’t want to deal with things. It’s like an ostrich with his head in the sink. It does not want to deal with the real things that’s happening.

Carrie: Let’s pretend this is not going on. Let’s pretend people are not struggling with these big issues like anxiety and OCD.

Erica: They don’t want to talk about them. I would think that you could find evidence in the Bible where there was somebody who was displaying the symptoms of anxiety and how they persevered or OCD and how they persevered.

One of my things that I always talk about is single motherhood. They don’t want to deal with that either.

Carrie: It’s very prevalent.

Erica: Yes, I did my master’s thesis on that. They didn’t want to deal with it. I never got support within the church to help do a group for single mothers.

Anyway, black church entered the price, white churches. The reason why I’m saying this is because those are the ones that I know of. I don’t know. Churches, and that’s my experience with them and it’s my personal experience. I just know that that’s one reason why I have another endeavor called trials spirituality, which if you go to Your Goal Concierge. That is my website, yourgoalconcierge.com. There’s a link that says trial spirituality. In there, it talks about small groups that people have at their homes. Actually, churches used to do this, but they have small groups at their homes about specific issues, scriptures that go along with for example, anxiety, that’s fine. So in the Bible to study who has anxiety and how they persevered through it and that group talks about it. So that’s definitely something that I am very passionate about. Let’s talk about the real things.

Carrie: We’ll put all of the information on the websites, in the show notes too, so people can click on the links.

Why do you think this is? Why do you think that people have their heads buried in the sand? Because we look at the lifetime prevalence of things like anxiety and depression and it’s high. This is not just affecting unbelievers. This is affecting believers as well. So what do you think is going on with church leadership that it’s having the ostrich mentality?

Erica: I think it’s too hard. It’s too hard of a topic and they don’t want their own stuff to come out like there’s needs to be some kind of transparency that happened in their own life. They probably have had it. Everybody has some anxiety. Everybody has a little bit of it. So that means you have to address your own stuff, This is like with counseling. That’s one reason why I decided to do my master’s in clinical mental health counseling because I needed to evaluate myself before I can even sit in the room with somebody else and I’m not sure they’re willing to evaluate themselves, but then they don’t address. There’s a lock.

Carrie: Right. Talk with me a little bit about your experience regarding racism, black issues related to counseling because I know you and I have had some conversations surrounding this. There may be some white therapists that don’t want to look at their own experiences or their own potential biases that may have a hard time seeing someone of another race or cultural group and vice versa too.

Erica: So being a black woman, it really is a conversation going on right now and I was just telling a friend of mine who is a white woman about it. It’s an everyday thing. They were talking about the protest that was happening and I said, “there’s no reason for me to get out in the streets and protest.” It’s a protest that I get up every day and not to come to the weight of the world that I feel as a black woman. Knowing that the people around me who are close to me could easily be killed at any point, just because of my skin. People don’t even think this way. Zora Neale Hurston kind of summed it up. She’s one of my role models is that my race, my race is only a part of who I am like brown coloring on top. Like it’s so much of me that doesn’t have anything to do with my race, but it’s just one of the parts, just like I am, you know, I love to giggle.

This is same day. It’s just one of the big. So everybody puts so much merit on it and seeing the differences in us when there’s so many similarities that my experience with racism is every day. Like I hear it. I feel it. I see it all the time and I can tell you many stories.

Because of who I am. I love to have, I love creating, I have an idea and launching things, but I’ve had many circumstances where people did not want to see the merit in what I was saying and what I was doing until somebody white was interested in it. I was capitalized on in some type of way by someone who was white on a regular basis.

That’s a normal thing. There’s always circumstances where someone wants to capitalize on what I have, which I mean, as a black person, I’m never going to have as much as they know. I’m working on trying to create my own dynasty, but like, there is just historical wealth that people who are white have that I will never be able to match.

Right. Because I’m working towards that, I started from the bottom, everything that there’s always someone who tries to align with me to try to capitalize on me, even my supervisor that I had.

Carrie: So like for example, people wanting you to do work for free or expecting that from you and so forth.

Erica: Yes work for free. That’s normal. I’m the kind of person where I get in and I jump full speed ahead into organizations and to opportunities and so I just give away so much information and I’m not paid the way that I see my counterpart being paid or the information is taken. I’m not appreciated for what I was, what I gave.

At all. Yeah. So that occurs. That’s the part that hurts me sometimes. I’ve spent some time with God on that and what God has for me, it’s for me, and whatever I gave away was what needed to be given away.

Carrie: And do you think that people could benefit sometimes from going to a therapist of a different race?

Erica: Of course. I know I’ve been to several people who were not my race and I got something out of each one of them like beautiful stories. Whenever I was in a room with someone, I had a white male one time through my EAP program when I worked at Vanderbilt and I only met with him one time because he was like to the point-blank. He affirmed me and I was on my way. I didn’t need to go back. I was good. I just needed someone to affirm me and affirm things that I did know, because when he talked about the exhaustion that you have in between two programs, getting my bachelor’s and getting my master’s and that loll in between there, I was not trying to give myself a rest.

I was ready to go to the next thing. And he was telling me, no, this is the time to rest. It’s all right. Your life is not going to crumble. Those kinds of things. So it was great. They were a white male, but also, you know, I’ve had, I had, uh, I had a black, older woman who I needed because she was helpful and there was transference that I felt with her that I wanted and I needed because I needed a mother in my life.

I needed it and I got it from her. It was a beautiful relationship. It was very psychoanalytic. So that was the part that I was missing like she didn’t give me much of that, but I found that somewhere else. So I think that every relationship that we have in our lives and not just counselors is something that you need in your life.

You call into your life to happen for you. So just look around and you’ll find the right people for you.

Carrie: I think we have so much to learn from each other. People that are similar to us and people that are different than us, people that look different than us. People that think different than us and people that have different backgrounds. And if we just keep our mind open to what we have to receive from that person like you were saying I think it’s a great thing.

Unfortunately, a lot of times we get so close-fisted to our position or stance on something that we are not willing to look at what’s the other side and why does this person feel so strongly about this? Why does this person who’s out in the street protesting? Why do they feel so strongly about that? Why is this person at home who feels very passionate about these issues, but they’re not protesting and so forth? Kind of like you talked a little bit. How about, is there anything, I guess that you would want to say just as an encouragement to Christian Black women?

I know that it’s, you’re a double minority in a sense, because, you know, there’s somewhat male privilege in our society, whether we want to admit that or not men are often paid more for the same positions than women. You’re also a racial minority and a lot of times what I’ve seen in my practice is that African-American women just kind of put up with a lot of things that they don’t necessarily need to put up with.

And sometimes they need somebody to speak into that space and say, “Hey, you can set a boundary there or you don’t have to do that, or you’re doing too much, you know, let go get some help.” I don’t know, maybe I’m stealing your thunder.

Erica: I remember, I love it that you had a board in the lobby of the suite that I worked at.

I worked out of the suite and it was, she took care of the lobby and everything, and there was a chalkboard and coffee table.

One thing I put on there was I have done enough. That’s something that I was speaking to myself, but black women and all the people that seem to be my clients, individuals that are type A people who are running and running and running to get things accomplished that they feel that they need to get accomplished in life, but they don’t give themselves rest and stuff.

Well, and so they have to decide something. They have to decide that they’ve done enough. I’ve done enough. You know, the thing is, people are going around saying, you know, I am enough, but for these people and those are my clients, the ones that made that message. I have done enough. I want to give them rest. Let’s be strategic about the next step you take.

Let’s not just go right into something else. Let’s decide that this is the next thing for me. And so I find that with black women It’s a crushing feeling of all the things that I have to do. I have to lecture with my male friend or my partner, my children. Oh, we’re doing virtual school right now with my boss.

My mind, I also feel the burden of the whole black community. Recently, we just had another blackmail murder. It just weighs down on us and it makes us want to run to do something to fix it, but I’ve done enough. I’ve done enough.

And one thing, another affirmation I would love to give is that I just recently started and it felt so good was I am at peace with the progress in my life. That made me just do a deep breath because I am. If I could just be at peace at the progress. Because you have done, I mean, just take like you get suspect amnesia and you think that you didn’t do a lot, but if you sit and think about all of these you haven’t.

You can sit and think about what you’re grateful for it makes you sit down and be strategic about the next thing that you’re going to do.

Carrie: Because progress is more important than perfection. Love that.

All right. So at the end of every podcast, because this is called hope for anxiety and OCD, I like to ask all the guests to share a story of hope, which is a time that you received hope from God or another person in your life.

Erica: Okay. I received hope when I had a very traumatic scenario happened. I had a fear of losing a child or my child dying. That was my fear and then it happened and it broke me down and it helped me see all the people around me who were capitalizing on me taking on the responsibility of so much.

I went through a depression and I reached out to a therapist and my hope came from my daughter, looking at me. She was the one that walked me to the car in the middle of my ectopic pregnancy and put me in the car, put the seatbelt around me and said, my daughter who is seven, she put me in the car put the seat belt around me and said, “Mama it’s going to be okay.”

And I knew that came from an inner part of her like that wasn’t a seven-year-old clock. That was God telling me that this is for a reason. All of this is for a reason. You’re going to be okay and in the middle of it, I’ve received that hope. Even though I was in pain there was a piece that I had because ultimately the version of who I am now is so much greater than I ever been. I would never be at a point that I can say, I’m at peace.” I’m not with my progress or even give myself the self-care and the self-love if I had not shared all those people around me and taking all of my energy and taking all of my love and not putting in anything. So that’s my story of hope.

Carrie: Thank you for sharing that. It is really those hard times that we go through that are transformative for us the most. And we can look back and go, “Oh, wow. That was a really hard situation but if I hadn’t gone through that, I wouldn’t have reaped to this benefit over here and I can be thankful for that.”

And you never know who you’re going to meet, who may be walking through similar circumstances that you can encourage as well. And side note, Erica’s daughter is really cool too. She’s fun. She’s a fun human being.

Thank you so much for being on the show and for talking about trying therapy and how we can find a good therapeutic fit.

Thank you for talking to me about hard sayings, about racial issues, and letting me ask you those questions as well. I think that’s awesome.

Erica: Thank you so much. It was such an honor. Thank you so much for reaching out to me to be on here. We’ll love to come back and you want me to talk about something else or whatever.

___________________________________________________________________

Everyone. I had no idea that Erica was going to speak so strongly about her experience related to mental health in the black church and remember this is just one person’s experience that we’re interviewing. It’s on my wishlist bulletin board for guests, I would love to talk with a black pastor who feels like that they really get and support mental health.

So if that’s you and you are listening or you know of a pastor, or this is your pastor and you say, “Carrie, you absolutely need to talk with them.” Please, please get them in touch with me. You can always reach us on hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you feel like our content is valuable, I really hope that you will tell a friend and say, “Hey, I found this podcast and I think you might be interested. Why don’t you give it a listen?” I’m sure you know somebody that needs a little hope.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Bring Your Own Tissues: My Experience with Online (Telehealth) Counseling

Written by Carrie Bock on December 16, 2020. Posted in Blog, Counseling, Personal Testimony.

I wrote this about a year before COVID-19 hit. Telehealth (online) counseling was still in the shadows and people were skeptical of it. In 2020, telehealth is more the norm than in person sessions. I felt this was worth sharing as the words are still as true today as they were in 2019.

My therapist lives about three hours away, but I don’t get in a car to see him. I turn on my computer. I’ve been seeing him via telehealth, and it’s been one of the biggest blessings of this year.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast - How PCIT Can Help Your Anxious Child with Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP

7. How PCIT Can Help Your Anxious Child with Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on December 9, 2020. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 7. How PCIT Can Help Your Anxious Child with Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP

What is Parent Child Interaction Therapy?
How PCIT is helpful for children with behavioral problems
How receiving PCIT virtually through online counseling benefits families
Are the tantrums my young child is having a normal part of development?
PCIT Calm adaptation for anxious children
Reinforcing brave behaviors over accommodating anxiety

Resources and links:
Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP
Parent Child Interaction Therapy

By The Well Counseling

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 7

Hello, Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 7.

For today’s episode, I got to interview one of my friends in the counseling profession. Anika Mullen. It’s kind of like Monica but without the M. It’s what she told me when I first met her. Anika was so sweet because when we went to record this show. We had been talking and got through almost the entire interview. We were towards the end and I realized nothing got recorded. I was absolutely mortified.

What is it Like to See a Counselor for the First Time?

Written by Carrie Bock on December 2, 2020. Posted in Blog, Counseling.

I think this counselor is a little too close to her client. Respecting client’s personal space is important!

Coming to counseling for the first time can be a bit unnerving. You may feel discomfort at the thought of talking to someone new about things that are personal to you. That’s normal. Most clients who are coming to counseling for the first time will tell me they don’t know what to expect. So, if you’re nervous about coming to counseling for a first session and don’t have a clue what it will be like, you’re not alone. Allow me to attempt to debunk some mystery about the first session or as we refer to it in the counseling realm, the intake.

How to Receive Counseling for Free

Written by Carrie Bock on November 18, 2020. Posted in Blog, Counseling.

Did you know you probably have a benefit through work that would provide you with free counseling? Seriously. Who doesn’t like free? An Employee Assistance Program (EAP) is a benefit separate from health insurance that pays for 3-8 counseling sessions at no cost to the employee.

2. Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

Written by Carrie Bock on November 18, 2020. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 2. Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

In episode 2 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD, I had the opportunity to interview my own pastor. We discussed how people with anxiety and OCD wrestle with having these disorders and not receiving healing from God for them. He shares his own experiences of how his prayer life has grown and developed over the last several years. Pastor Troy discusses prayers that were answered and how he handles the ones that weren’t.

How Pastor Troy went from falling asleep to engaged during his time with God in the morning
Receiving the call to plant a church and the unexpected miracles along the way
How praying to God when you are mad or distressed increases intimacy
Doubts and questions during prayer
Hope for unanswered prayer

Verses discussed: Phil 4:6, Eph 1:9

Resources and links:

By The Well Counseling
Victory Church, Smyrna, TN “You’re here on purpose because you have a purpose.”
Victory YouTube channel

More podcast episodes

Transcript of Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 2

I am your host Carrie Bock. Today, we’re going to be talking with Pastor Troy Powell, who is the pastor of Victory church. I have really been so blessed to be a part of the Victory family for the last couple of years. This was my first interview on the podcast.

I was super nervous even though I was already interviewing somebody that I knew and knew a lot of the stories that he was going to share. Today, we’re going to be diving into a lot of different issues like how do you develop a prayer life? How do you handle frustrations and disappointment with God when you’re praying?

What in the world do we do with unanswered prayer, especially surrounding healing from anxiety or OCD. So, if you have been praying for God to take your anxiety away and there’s no relief in sight, this episode is absolutely for you. Unfortunately, the audio for this episode is not the greatest. We had a big Tennessee thunderstorm roll in at the time that we were recording this.

You may hear some thunder in the background. I know that our editor has done the best that he can on his end to improve the sound quality. Please don’t judge our show by episode 2 audio. The content was so good that I didn’t want to scratch it. I really wanted to be able to provide an opportunity for you guys to hear this stuff because it’s just really good.

Pastor Troy’s Journey to Becoming a Pastor

Carrie: Welcome to the podcast.

Pastor Troy: Excited to be here.

Carrie: In church backgrounds, we call our pastors all kinds of different things. Sometimes, people will say like, “Brother Troy”, or typically we call you Pastor Troy, but recently you’ve really embraced this new nickname of PT. I’m curious about how that came about?

Pastor Troy: Pastor Troy has been weird for me in a way. I’m not heavily educated in that theology realm. I’ve got a little bit of theology background and I’ve always just been a servant leader at the church. So when the day came to be called Pastor Troy, that was weird for a while. Plus, I’m from Memphis and there’s a rapper named Pastor Troy. Don’t go buy any of his CD’s. They’re not good. A quick, funny story- there was a Cat’s Music that on the sign out front had like Pastor Troy on it because he had a new album out. The children’s pastors and all the kids were showing in the church, “What are you doing in the Cat’s Music?” and I was like, “Don’t go to Cat’s Music.” I didn’t even know who it was, maybe Jamal or somebody just kind of quickly said, “PT” and that sticks because it’s quicker and it’s easier to say. I love it because it’s both respectful, but at the same time, relatable and kind of chill. So, you can really have a good conversation with somebody.

Carrie: Cool. So tell us a little bit about the journey to becoming a pastor and planting Victory church.

Pastor Troy: I’ll try to do the smallest critical, condensed version of that. I didn’t go to church, didn’t know anything about the Lord till about 17. I sat beside a young man in a math class at school. He started talking to me and we found out that we both liked basketball and so on.

He invited me to his church where they played basketball and long story short, I just fell in love with the environment. The people were super nice. Our kind of tagline at our church is “You’re here on purpose because you have a purpose.” I’ve always known there was a better purpose to life than just give money or become famous or whatever. I could never find that. I worked jobs. I’ve worked them for a day or an hour and quit cause I was like, “What is the purpose of this?” I started going to church for girls, basketball, the food, and all that kind of stuff. The more I stuck around, the more I started to realize, “Hey, there’s something to this.”

Long story short, God grabbed me, held onto me, and then I just said, “Hey, this is what I want to give my life to.” So, I started stacking chairs at the church, that kind of thing, and one by one, the opportunity would open when I’d walk to the door.

Long story of how I got from there to at the time I was the Executive Pastor of our church in Memphis. I just felt this weird, we couldn’t explain that at the time, but it was this urge, this calling in our heart to shepherd people, to pastor people. My two pastors, Matt and Ron Woods would tell us “You’ve got an anointing on your life to be a pastor.” We didn’t know what that meant. We love to counsel our friends. We love to teach the Bible, love to preach the Bible on any Sunday. It was just amazing. We loved pastoring people to our pastor’s vision. We loved shepherding people and we always did it from another pastor.

God Called Pastor Troy To Plant A Church

That was the assignment God had for us, but we just knew that there was a time coming where we would be pastoring our own church. It was just kind of a moment where the church was going in a certain direction. We didn’t really want to go in that direction personally. We knew something was changing for us. We went to our pastor and said, “Hey, this is what’s going on” and our pastor said, “Have you ever considered planting a church?” and we were like, “We didn’t know anything about it.” The more he described it, I said, “That sounds terrible.”

I have to quit my job, raise funds, move my family, get my kids out of school, sell my house, move somewhere potentially that I’ve never been. Then, beg people who don’t know me to give up their life for something. That sounds completely like the hardest thing you could possibly do.

So I said, “No, there’s no way I’m doing it.” And he said, “Well, go with me to a conference,” and I said, “Sure.” So he took me to the conference and the Lord confirmed through a particular preacher that day.

That’s what was happening. She (spouse Darla) had to stay at home because we had small kids. At the altar, at this place, I was crying because I know that God has called us to do this. I didn’t know she was watching the same service online at home in the kitchen and she’s crying at the same time. She’s texting me after it was over and she goes, “We’re doing it” and I was like, “Yes, we are.”

We knew from that moment forward this will come up. There were a lot of hardships and hurdles to jump but we never lost faith. In fact, we were supposed to do it because of the way that we didn’t want it. We didn’t see it as an opportunity to be the leaders or something. We didn’t see it as the opportunity to get more money or to be finally the person, the boss. We just saw it as an opportunity to walk where God had us and we knew it. Again, He kind of dragged us at first, but as we fell into that place and said yes, the doors started swinging wide open. There’s no doubt in my heart that this is what God’s called us to do.

Carrie: I like two things about that story that you shared. One is like the sense that you had other people in your life that confirmed God’s vision for your life. I think sometimes it’s easier for other people to see it and we catch that up later like God speaks to us over time and it’s like maybe that is really valid what that person is trying to say. I definitely can relate to times where I told God, “No” and He was like, “nN, you’re really doing this.”

Pastor Troy: I heard a guy say one time that we struggle seeing the anointing or the calling on our lives because we’re the only person we can’t see. Everybody can see us. Everybody can see that you’re gifted. Everybody can see that you’re beautiful. Everybody can see these things, but you don’t see it. As much as that happens with a woman who’s beautiful and is insecure about her beauty, it happens with an individual who is anointed to do the work of God but just doesn’t see it like everybody else sees it. Like you said, it’s valuable when you have somebody in your life, people who are able to tell you, “You are called to do this. You can do it.”

Carrie: That’s good. I think it speaks to the value of the church and being a part of a community because more and more people are fleeing the church in a sense saying, “Hey, I want God but I don’t want anything to do with organized religion”, or “I’ve been burned in the past by churches and so I’m not going to have anything to do with that aspect of my faith.” I think it’s unfortunate because we miss out on so much when we do that.

Building Relationship Is Vital In Church Planting

Pastor Troy: It is very unfortunate because number one, I just believe that the church is the hope of the world. Number two, I believe it is where you find that fellowship. We try to design Victory this way. We’re not perfect by any means but I always wanted to be a place where right off the bat, you come in the door and you’re welcomed. You belong before you believe. It’s not about your belief system. It’s not about your standards and all that.

Jesus went fishing like he’ll clean you after He catches you or however it works. You get people in the door and then you build a relationship with them and you get some relationship equity. Then, as you build relationship equity, you’re able to have those conversations about, “Here’s what the Bible says about this. Here’s what the Bible says about that.” Then, of course, you’re preaching the whole time and allowing the Holy Spirit to do that.

Don’t get me wrong, every Sunday before you start trying to essentially change somebody’s life, maybe the way they’ve been living it for 20 years, you may want some relationship equity first so there is weight behind that where you’re saying, “Hey, maybe you shouldn’t do this. Maybe you shouldn’t do that” because of that relationship. That’s where I think the church has got off a little bit as you walk in the door and they’re telling you what you shouldn’t do, and you’ve already got a blow-up. So, you turn around and leave to where they would build a relationship, love you through the way somebody loved them.

I’ll jump off the subject of this. When I started coming to our church in Memphis, which was called Raleigh Assembly of God, I was so far away from God. People, specifically Ron and Timmy Kennemore, they’ve been at our church multiple times. They’ve been there at every birthday. They were there for the launch. They parented me. They wrapped their arms around me and loved me and I was not lovable, but they did. That to me was a picture of Christ. That’s I believe what the local church can do and can be if people are willing to let it use them that way.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think relationship is really a key and really important in any change. Sometimes the kindest thing that we can do for people is to speak up and say, “Hey, you’re going down the wrong path” or “You’re on the path of destruction and let me guide you over here and that’s going to lead you to the path of life.”

Taking The Prayer Relationship To A Different Level

One of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast was to talk about your prayer life and how it’s grown and developed to where you are now. Can you share a little bit about that story?

Pastor Troy: Certainly, this is one of my favorite stories to talk about simply because I think it’s one that God uses.

So again, I get saved. I’m very young and immature in Christ. I just start serving God and I was serving because I was around, I ended up in circles with more spiritual, mature people. I was a janitor at the church. I was an assistant to different staff members. I just kind of do that whole deal but I’d always struggled with having a consistent prayer life. I would hear people talk about their quiet time or their time with the Lord or when they read, pray, whatever they called it. I wanted it bad but I just couldn’t do it. There was the hurdle of not quite understanding it but as I grew up and as I stayed in the church, that kind of got fixed, but part of it was just, I would try hard and I just couldn’t do it. I’d wake up in the morning and I’d go in the living room and I’d fall asleep trying to do it. I’m not a morning person. I like to get up in the morning, but I don’t wake up and go like, “Oh right.” I don’t drink coffee, so I don’t have any kind of immediate wake-up. I remember when Darla and I really started talking about doing this, planting this church which was probably a year and a half to two years before we actually moved to do it. I just remember saying, “Alright, something’s got to change.” I’ve got to take that prayer relationship to a different level and I know, again, I’d wake up in the morning, I’d go in the living room. I’d sit on the floor, get my Bible out, and then, I’d fall asleep. It was just not working.

Hearing God’s Answer Audibly

Interestingly enough at the same time, I had gained some weight through the stress of ministry. That’s a whole another podcast. She (Darla) said, “You need to get in the gym.” I’d never been at the gym and so I said, “Fine, I’m going to the gym and lose some weight.” So I go to the gym one night and I’m walking into the gym, and I don’t even know what to do. I don’t know how this machine works.

People are looking at me like I’m weird simply because of God. I turned around and my brother-in-law, Darla’s brother, is walking in the door and I’m like, “I didn’t know you work out here.” and he’s like, “yeah.” And I was like, “Man, is there any chance we could work out together? I don’t know what I’m doing today.” He said, “Sure, but normally I’m here at five o’clock,” and I was like, “That’s no big deal” and I think it was like six-thirty or seven o’clock at night. He goes, “No, no, I’m only here at 5:00 AM.” I was like, “Oh, I thought there was only one five on the clock.”

I’ve never really heard the Lord audibly, but I can feel it so strong in my spirit that it sounds audibly. God says, “This is what you’ve been asking for,” and so I just said, “You know what, I’m going to do it. You’ll hold me accountable. I know you will and so I’ll come.”

Walking The Track With God

I don’t remember the exact day we started, but I get up at 4:30. I drink the pre-workout that he gave me. It’s kind of caffeine. I get in my car and drive to the gym. We worked out from five to six. Six o’clock, he leaves. We have a couple of the guys with us too. Six o’clock in the morning, I’m standing in the gym that’s almost empty, nothing but senior adults in it. I don’t normally wake up until seven so I’ve got an hour in time that I’m not normally not even up for.

They happened to have one of those tracks above their gym that went all the way around. So, I said, “Well, I’m just going to go walk.” I’m going to put on my headphones and I’m going to try to pray and I walked up there. I put my headphones into Christian music and I just walked and I just started talking to God.

I didn’t have a diagram. I didn’t have a plan. I didn’t have a layout. I don’t even think I actually said a prayer during that first hour, but that hour flew by. I just talk to God as if me and Him were walking that track. There was nobody up there but myself and it was beautiful. It was great.

I felt better about myself. I felt excited to be able to say, “I prayed today,” and so I just started the process and kept it going. I don’t do it on Sunday mornings because normally we’re at church. If we’re on vacation, I won’t work out, but I’d still walk, pray, but I haven’t missed a day in five years.

Carrie: Wow. That’s awesome.

Listening To The Same Praise Worhip Music List Helps

Pastor Troy: Certainly, it’s matured. It’s grown. It changed my life. What it looks like now is I don’t have to get up as early. Praise God. I will do it if he ever calls me to do that again, but I will get to the gym, I’ll work out. Actually, now I pray first. I’ll get there, I’ll drink my pre-workout while I’m praying.

A couple of keys in case anybody’s listening and wants to model it, I listened to the same praise worship list or music list because I don’t want to be distracted by the song. I don’t want to be surprised. I don’t want the genre of music to change or to go from soft music to loud music or fast music. So, it’s the same. It’s almost like it’s white noise.

It drowns out the people that are around me. I now have a prayer request on my phone, different prayer requests that I marked cause I’m gonna show you something in a minute that I brought for this. That’d be pretty cool.

Carrie: That’s awesome.

Checkbox To Highlight Answered And Unanswered Prayers

Pastor Troy: I’ve now actually got an app on my phone where I can read the Bible now during that time as well, and take notes on what I’m reading. So in that whole hour, I start off thinking about God. I’ll go into my prayer requests. I’ll read my daily reading for that day. Of course, depending on what’s happening in my life, it kind of changes.

One thing I wanted to show you this, I don’t know if you’ll be able to see this at all, but this is the book I had when I first started doing my prayer. These are some of the prayer requests that I had written down. They can be very specific. I wish I could share this one day. I actually have my beard because I wanted to grow a beard so bad.

During this season, we had to sell our house. We had people moving with us. One of our guys lost his job. They said they were going to allow him to work, move to Nashville but work from Memphis. They fired him. We had to raise $175,000. Our water heater went out.

I had all these people. We had people who were asking to move with us. So, I had all these prayer requests and I just could not get that verse out of my mind, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” So I would pray over these things. The reason why they’re highlighted is that He answered the prayer.

My phone has a little checkbox that you get but what that does for me is it allowed me to go back and see all that God was doing. One of them that’s not highlighted on here because I had moved out of this book is church location. I moved on to a different book.

Carrie: That’s awesome.

Pastor Troy: It’s been life-changing for me. First of all, understand this about me, Carrie, I don’t like surprises. I like to set stuff up. I like my house. I want to clean the dishes, put the dishes in the cabinet and let them set there cleanly and I’d rather use a paper plate, never get them dirty. Like, I’m weird. I like stuff to be stable and so not only did I pick the number one career for my life to become unstable, but now I have to deal with everybody else’s lack of stability, right? If their mother becomes sick, if their job furloughs them, I’m now involved in that.

Experiencing God While Working Out Put Things Into Perspective

I have a lot of anxiety or I have potential for a lot of anxiety and this has been life-changing for me because every morning I go get my perspective right. I sit, I bring whatever it is I’m dealing with and then I give Him the actual day [00:19:00] and I can spend some time reading my Bible and worship if that day calls for it. When I go work out, I listen to podcasts and sermons while I’m working out. So it’s like a two-hour experience with God and by the time I leave, I am so jazzed for the day with a different perspective.

God Cares About Everything, Even Little Things Like A Hair Tie

Carrie: That’s awesome. I like that you prayed about your beard because I think there are some things that we really think, “Oh, that’s too small or it’s too insignificant” or “I can’t really bring that to the Lord.”

There was a story one time where I was on my way to the gym and I was like, “Oh, I forgot a hair tie” and I was like if I go through this workout class I’m just going to go crazy cause my hair is going to be flying everywhere and some really gonna bother me. I got there to the gym and I opened up the locker and there were two hair ties in there and I was like, “I know this is the Lord.” I know there were two because you had been preaching [00:20:00] about how God wants to do more in your life. I was like, “See, there it is, it’s right there.”

I love little things like that. God’s concerned about the details of our life. Yes, He’s concerned about our job and our health and our family and things like that but he’s also concerned about little stuff that most people would find insignificant or say, “You don’t really need to bother God with that.” I guess, so to speak. He’s not bothered by any of it.

Pastor Troy: Not at all. I have two kids, a 10-year-old and a five-year-old. The five-year-old is still really little and she still has a raspy voice. If that little girl asks me for anything, if she says daddy, “I can’t find my hair tie.” I will flip this house upside down to find it for her and on a second, I’d say. “We’ll just get another one” or “Hey honey, your hair’s fine down” but she wants it and your love for her drives you to find it. There’s a verse, I don’t remember the reference, but it talks about how a dad will not give [00:21:00] their son. I think it’s like a rock if they asked for a fish. So how much more would God not do that to us? If that’s the way I feel about Kacey Rae, how much more does God feel that way about me?

If I can get to that level of intimacy where not only am I asking Him for healing and provision, but I’m asking Him to give me a hair tie, that’s the level of intimacy that most people never get to.

God Does’nt Get Offended When We Are Mad At Him

Carrie: That’s awesome. So what do we do when we do pray about some of the big things? I look at things that have happened in my life. I lost my foster children. I lost my marriage and I remember specifically when I lost my foster children, I just said, “You know, God, I will live a thousand years and I will never understand why you allowed that to happen in my life.”

Do you feel like it’s okay for us to go to God with [00:22:00] things like doubt or questioning? If you could talk about that for a little bit.

Pastor Troy: Yes. First of all, I think that’s always the hardest part about having a consistent prayer life because if you have a consistent prayer life, you are eventually going to ask God for something that He doesn’t give. It’s just going to happen like“go ahead and mark it on.” I could find stuff in this book and some of the stuff are highlighted, but it’s not highlighted because He gave me the prayer. It’s highlighted because I didn’t get it. I just knew that was the answer.

Obviously, If I had the supernatural answer for why God does those things, I’d write a best-selling book, but I do want to say this to the direction you were going, during that time that I have in prayer, there’s often a time that I call the lamenting time. You go through the Bible, you see David do it. [00:23:00] You see Joseph, you see different men and women of God where there’s a season where they cry out and they’re angry at God and sometimes it lasts for only a short time. I think David when his son with Bathsheba dies, he cries out, he tears his clothes, and then you’ve done that and I’d get up and move on.

Here’s what I’ve learned from that, number one, God doesn’t shake or get offended or shiver when I get mad at him. I don’t get scared when my daughters get mad at me because I don’t let them do something they want to do. I understand the process. So as long as I’m communicating with them. I tell my kids all the time, “You don’t have to agree with me, let’s talk about it”.

A lot of times with God, I think what it is God’s saying, “That’s fine. Go ahead get it off your chest. Cry, yell a little bit, scream” like, “God I can’t take it.”

I think what He tries to teach us is that principle, I haven’t learned it quite to a level of excellence [00:24:00] yet, but the ability to cry, lament but once you’re done get up and move on.

Once there’s a moment that you have done that and you have had a perspective shift or you have had confidence now that for whatever reason God didn’t give it to you but God is on the throne, let’s move on. I think you and I both could name many, many moments in Memphis where now that I look back, I’m thankful God didn’t answer that prayer.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.

Lamenting To God Will Draw Us Closer To Him

Pastor Troy: There are still things that I will go to my grave probably wondering, “God, why didn’t you give that to me” “Why didn’t you make it easier?” That whole idea of God’s looking at the puzzle from the top and we’re looking at it piece by piece. I believe and I would love to assure anybody that in your prayer time with the Lord, do not hesitate to just let Him know how you feel. Do not hesitate. If you’re unhappy with something, tell him. If it didn’t go the way you want it to, [00:25:00] go get mad, scream, yell. I think He just draws us closer. I think He just continues to console us and lets us lament to Him so that we can get through that season and into a season of healing.

Carrie: There’s a certain emotional connection that comes about when you welcomed the emotion into the room. So like for example, in counseling, sometimes people have a hard time crying in front of me initially, but then when they do that, it’s a connecting point. I think the same is true of God. If we try to hide our feelings from Him or come to Him in some kind of pious religious way, then we’re missing that deeper layer of intimacy to say, “I’m hurting right now,” or “I’m mad at you” or “All of these emotions are here.” We just miss out on that connection.

Being Vulnerable with God Will Deepen Our Intimacy With Him

Pastor Troy: My wife and I don’t have a lot of fights, but we like to call them “intense conversations.” [00:26:00] Everyone we’ve ever had, if I look back on it, because of that conversation, we grew in our level of intimacy. When you’re angry, you’ll say things that you really feel. You may not say them in the best of ways, but you’re no longer beating around the bush. You’re no longer sugarcoating it. You are just, “You know what, here it is” and when those moments happen again, you can’t just turn around and walk out of the house and not talk about it. When handled correctly, I think that recovery from a fight or recovery from a disagreement, or whatever misunderstanding brings a new level of intimacy. I think it’s the same way with God. When we have that time, that intense conversation with God, we see once we get through it, there’s a higher level of intimacy.

Carrie: I agree. I think that’s great. It really goes back to prayer, being more about a relationship with God, [00:27:00] rather than this is something that I do because I’m obligated to do it or I pray in a certain way because that’s what I was taught at church.

I know for me for a long time, I wasn’t really honest in my prayer life, not at the gut level, honest place and I think that difficulty with being vulnerable with God and being vulnerable with other people really scented my spiritual growth in a way. When I went through difficult things and tragedy, my prayers got a lot more gut-level honest to where I could be real. That drew me closer to the Lord in the end even though I wasn’t happy with the process of having to go through those things.

Pastor Troy: I think you hit it on the head. I think that the number one foundation has to be laid out is that prayer life has to be way more about having relationship with God and less about a religious process or even a means to an end. It’s not I’m doing [00:28:00] it so that I can get A, B or C. A lot of days where I don’t even pray a prayer request. I just talk through what I’m going through. I just talk through what I’m thinking and my insecurities and all those kinds of things and I feel better. I didn’t even ask for anything. God may answer one of those prayer requests that day because obviously, I’ve prayed about it before, but it’s about having that daily meeting.

The Bible talks about being at a level with God where you are revealed the mysteries of God. I really think that the more we can get close to God in an intimate level where we get to a place where our prayer time is more about just hanging out with him than it is about a means to an end, when you keep it regular.

God always knows where to find me and my wife will talk about this, anytime she’s praying about something that she wants God to move in my heart, she’ll pray in the morning when I’m at the gym because she knows I’m in [00:29:00] conversation with God. God wants to do anything. If God wants to speak something to me, He knows where to find me.

I said this at church recently, when all of the COVID-19 stuff hit and we weren’t allowed to go to the gym, I walked and ran outside around my neighborhood and prayed. I remember praying about COVID-19, praying for our church, praying for people who had lost jobs and so on and so on. I remember saying to the Lord, “I’m so glad this isn’t the first time you’re hearing from me. I’m so glad that because the world’s upside down and all of a sudden I’m talking to you. I’m glad that for five years, I’ve been talking to you when it was a Saturday when all we had to do was lay around the house and play games when it was the best of best days, I was praying to you that morning.”

I’m glad that that’s the routine I’ve put in place, which in result has created an intimate level of relationship which I think has unlocked some of God’s mysteries.

When God Doesn’t Answer Your Prayers…

Carrie: That’s good. A little bit about this in terms of unanswered prayer. I just wanted to address maybe for people that are listening [00:30:00] out there who would say, “I’ve prayed for healing for my anxiety” or maybe they’re having debilitating panic attacks on a regular basis. Maybe they’re struggling with OCD which can impact people’s connection, ability to pray, relationship with God. So for somebody who said, “I’ve been praying for God to take these things away and I’ve been praying for healing and I haven’t received it and I’m just so discouraged by that”. What would you say to encourage them?

Pastor Troy: That’s a great question. Obviously, every situation is going to be different, right? Because of that particular situation, how long have they been in it? Throughout the Bible, you’re seeing so many people healed and delivered. I think we automatically fall in that vein that we think prayer should bring healing and deliverance right.

About Bob, we may not forget about what he went through. The person I immediately think about that I think would allow me to bring some encouragement in this area. [00:31:00] is Paul. When Paul says “I’ve got this thorn in my side, and I’ve been praying for God to take it away once, twice, three times and God has not removed it.”

I think that’s such a funny situation because Paul is such an incredible man of God who has given his life to the kingdom of God, asking for this little thing to be delivered and God doesn’t do it. I heard a preacher say one time, the reason that they don’t identify the thorn is so that you and I could apply whatever our thorniest into that, as if it was a blank. The part that I don’t hear preached about enough is when Paul’s talking about the thorn. He says a couple of lines in there that reveals that what it’s doing is keeping him in humility, but also bringing him to the feet of Jesus.

The best way I can explain this is with this illustration: four years ago, five years ago, [00:32:00] I had this extremely bad situation with kidney stones. I think they said it was like 13 kidney stones in both kidneys. I had a brand new baby. Kacy Rae was just born. My wife is dealing with a newborn baby by herself and I’m on medication painkillers, whatever it was, just enough to let me go to work. Six o’clock I was right back into pain so I would come home.

Darla would have the heating pad on the couch. I would sit on the couch and do nothing. She would handle a five-year-old and a newborn by herself. I would just sit on the couch looking at the TV. By seven o’clock, I was so miserable. All I want to do is go to bed. So I go to bed. I’d lay in the bed. I could hear her screaming at our kids, dealing with our kids’ crying.

[00:33:00] At two or three in the morning, I just go in the living room and watch Boy Meets World. It was miserable and this went on for like four months straight. It was just terrible. I prayed. Every second of every day and I pray like this, “God, you could snap your fingers and it would just stop right now, so why aren’t you?”

I could write down you a list, 10, maybe 20 things that God taught me through that experience. Had it not happened, I wouldn’t be the same. I wouldn’t be the same physically as far as fitness. I wouldn’t be the same in my marriage. I wouldn’t be the same in my intimacy with God. I would not be the same father.

I’ve preached a sermon before about taking my kids for granted and when they wanted to hang out and do something, I was like,” Oh, I’m too busy. Every time they said my name, I dropped what I was doing and went and spent time with them. So I say that if somebody is going like, “I need some hope and all these because God’s not taking it away from me,” instead of praying, “God, take it away from me” shift that. Still, pray by all means as Paul didn’t stop praying. Start praying, “God, what are you trying to teach me in this? What is the perspective you want me to see?” What are some things in that intimacy with Him? Again, like we were talking about earlier, you’re not going to Him with a means to an end. Now, it’s not we’re going out and talking to you so you will deliver me so that once I’m delivered from it, I’ll just move on because we all have that tendency that once our problems are fixed, we forget.

It’s a lot easier to stay on the other side because obviously, God did end up healing me. It could’ve been a lot quicker, but he did end up doing it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to belittle the situation because it’s just so much easier talking about it when you’ve been delivered from it. If I was going to give an encouragement, it would take some time to set up a [00:35:00] situation where you have an hour a day of prayer and for 15 minutes, pray that God would deliver you, even then for 45 minutes, pray that God would help you see why He hasn’t.

God’s Gift In Unanswered Prayers

Carrie: I try to remind myself, sometimes God’s always working. God’s doing something here, even if I don’t see what it is or I don’t know where this is going. Even in our culture of American and what’s happening right now between COVID-19, between race relations, God’s doing something in our nation.

If we are tapped in and we are tuned in and saying, “God, what are you doing in my life? What are you doing in my community? What are you doing in the nation and the world?” Then I think we’re going to be a lot better prepared to handle situations as they arise. They’re out of our control.

Pastor Troy: A hundred percent. It’s about stewardship, right? So you mentioned COVID-19, [00:36:00] I think God has got so many things that He’s going to do by the time all this is over both through the racial dividing and through COVID.

I’m going to use the COVID-19, for example, when it first hit, we went a couple of months, we couldn’t even leave our houses. The kids weren’t going to school. Not that any of that really changed, but it was really extreme. So number one, we had dinner meetings every night. We were meeting people every night, so we were never eating at home. That forced us that we can’t go to restaurants, so we’re cooking at home.

My back porch was just a bunch of junk piled up. Somebody had given me a free grill. I never even turned it on. So Darla and I took some time and we bought a swing and we cleaned it up and we cleaned the grill up and we got some plants and put out a table and long story short, four months later, every night, we have dinner with the kids. We’ll put them in bed and then we go sit on that porch and we just swing and we talk.

So my point is that God gives us these, whether we’re considering it a gift. So again, back to [00:37:00] Paul, he talks about the stone, he says, “God gave me that.”

Nobody’s going to consider COVID-19 a gift right now but if you allow the spirit of God to give you a little bit of perspective shift, again, not that any of those things are good, people being sick, people dying, small business, that’s all bad, and we need to do all we can to help. We’re a mess, whatever it might be, but there’s another side of it that says, “All right, God” I’m going to also look the other way and say, “What can change in a positive way as a result of this? What can I learn that makes me a better person.” Moving forward from what people would have considered a terrible situation.

Carrie: Right. There’s a gift in there at some point. I want to end our podcast time together. This has been really awesome. Some of the things that you’ve shared and topics that we’ve gotten into.

Pator Troy’s Story of Hope

I like to ask every guest, what is a moment of hope maybe that stands out for you, a time where you received hope [00:38:00] from God or someone else in a period of maybe a discouragement or time where you had a hard time moving forward?

Pastor Troy: There’s so many. I think of two big wins right off the bat though. I’ll try to say real briefly, the first one, which you’ve probably heard me talk about before, we had to raise $175,000 to launch our church and my dad’s blue-collar, “If you want money, you work for it.” That was really difficult for me to ask people and God actually kept providing so we were about $65,000 away from our goal and we decide that we’re gonna launch the church nine months earlier than we originally planned. We’re going to launch in September. We moved to January. So we kind of started panicking. We didn’t want to have to borrow money even though there are great organizations out there that will let you do that.

We wanted to launch debt-free and so we just didn’t know what we’re going to do. We have missed some deadlines for some of those applications and I remember just praying like, “God, I need something.” [00:39:00] Long story short, a pastor friend of mine whose church is kind of a parenting church of ours, called us up there for a video and totally pretended like it was one thing. Darla and I arrived and they handed us a check for $65,000. It’s moments like that, that it can only be God.

The second one, since I had this book, I was going to show you or read it to you cause I don’t have it memorized. So we were supposed to launch the church or plant the church. We felt that calling from that conference.

I’m trying to decide the name of the church and I’m getting kind of uneasy because we don’t know where we’re going. I’m starting to get to that point of like, “God did you really call us?” because all the people that I know are like, “Oh, God called us here.” Most people got called back to where they were born. At some point and God called them back to it. We were leaving where both Darla and I were born. So there was no like, “Oh, we’re supposed to go [00:40:00] here.” I was just kind of getting to that point of doubt. I needed some hope.

I had to go to a conference that I didn’t want to go to. It’s normally a boring conference for me but my pastor made me go. So I said, “well, that’s fine.”

I’ll go but I’ll sit in the back and play candy crush and get through it. So we’re getting ready for the first night and the guy who’s speaking is like 80 years old.

So I’m like, “This is not going to be entertaining for me.” My pastor says, “come here” and he takes me to the front row beside him, and then before it starts, he gets a phone call and leaves. He leaves me on the front row by myself. So I can’t play candy crush because everybody’s gonna see. So I did what I had to do. I listened and I took notes. He preached this entire sermon and I forget the title of it, but he preached it. He just read the verse when he started off, Hebrews 11:8 and he reads this [00:41:00] “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.”

I just remember floodgates just because you can’t write a better script than that. You know what I mean? Like God knows that’s what I’m struggling with. It takes you to this place I don’t want to be and He makes me listen and that guy steps up, and that’s the first words he said.

It’s just a couple of, probably hundreds of moments that I could share with you where God has given me the little nuggets of hope to just keep me moving in the path that He’s got to move me on.

Carrie: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I look forward to when we can see each other in person and all hug each other and all that good stuff at church, it’ll be a good day. We’ll probably all be okay.

Pastor Troy: That’s so true.

______________________________________________________________

[00:42:00] I really hope that this episode blessed you as much as it did me and I am so thankful to be connected to a pastor who cares about and is in support of mental health.

You can reach me for show opinions and suggestions at our website hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing was completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love.

4. Importance of Proper Diagnosis with Jessica Huddleston, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on November 18, 2020. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 4. Importance of Proper Diagnosis with Jessica Huddleston, LPC-MHSP

In Episode 4 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD, I interviewed my friend and colleague Jessica Huddleston to discuss the importance of determining whether or not someone is suffering from anxiety or OCD. Many people with OCD are in therapy for years receiving reassurance-seeking, but not getting better. Jessica also discusses a common treatment for OCD.

Personal story of how her daughter has been impacted by OCD
Importance of differentiating between anxiety and OCD
Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP)
Creating exposures for social anxiety
Power of a proper diagnosis to reduce shame and increase hope

Resources and links:

Sabin Behavioral Health in Smyrna, TN
More information about ERP and OCD

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript Of Episode 4

Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 4

Today on the show, we are going to be talking to my good friend, Ms. Jessica Huddleston. She is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Certified Psychological Assistant at Sabin Behavioral Health in Smyrna, Tennessee. She’s going to talk a little bit about her own experience of having a child with OCD, as well as talk about professionally the importance of diagnosis.

Let’s dive right in. So just to start out, one of the things that I’m doing on this show is talking to different people with different viewpoints. Instead of just going and interviewing all Christians, because I think it’s important at times for people to seek the help that they need and that may be outside the church, or it may be outside the traditional Christian community setting.

How Jessica View Spirituality

Carrie: [00:01:17] I’m curious for you, what is your kind of viewpoint on spirituality?

Jessica: I believe that everybody has some kind of spiritual power and it’s important for them to embrace it with whatever denomination or belief system that’s important to them, but it’s really just holding their own values and their own morals. That is the bigger picture for me and my goal as a clinician is to understand that person’s values. So if that means that I need to be educated on it, so be it. I believe everybody is a bit different, but being in the setting that I’m in, as well as being a counselor and my background being in clinical, I feel like it’s important for me to not be biased and hold my personal opinions separately from whatever the clients are.

Carrie: [00:02:09] Right. Do you find it challenging at times to work with people that have a different viewpoint than you do?

Jessica: No, most of the time. The goal is for me to understand what their belief systems are and sometimes that takes me getting educated. Sometimes it takes the individual teaching me. Sometimes it’s me going and reading things and figuring out and just having an understanding. I’m very open to asking questions, like, “What does this mean if I don’t understand” or “Why is this important?” Things like that. Having a common understanding is more important than anything that I particularly believe.

Jessica’s Experience Dealing With Her Children Who Have Anxiey and OCD

Carrie: I know that one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show was to talk a little bit about your own experience in your family with OCD or anxiety. [00:02:58] Can you talk a little about that?

Jessica: My son is 19 and he has difficulty with anxiety. One of my daughters has OCD and we recognized it early on. She wasn’t even two yet. We were noticing some odd behaviors where she was collecting things and trying to hold things close to her and when she was able to talk, she told us that she collected everything because she was afraid we wouldn’t come back to the house. So every time we left, she wanted to have everything ready so she could take it with her, and that included garbage like a candy wrapper or whatever.

She would just collect everything and we’ve spent a long time, [00:03:43] she’s 12 now, I spent a long time working on a lot of those issues and she’s doing a lot better, but it does come out with her schoolwork, her wanting to be very perfectionistic and afraid of making mistakes. Her teachers have been really supportive, intentionally asking her questions that she doesn’t know the answer to [00:04:04], and then they just praise her for trying, which has been a huge help. Luckily, she goes to a really supportive school.

I do know that one of the things that I’ve run into professionally is a lot of parents feel stuck because the schools don’t really understand their child’s difficulty with OCD. I worked really diligently to educate the parents so they can convey that information to the school because a lot of times kids will come across as just being non-compliant. It may, especially if they use avoidance as their tactic with things. I think that’s really important to me to help parents have the vocabulary and the tools to be able to get their children what they need.

Avoidance In OCD Does’nt Work

Carrie: Right. I’m sure that the advocacy process has been ongoing because every year there’s a new teacher and more educating that has to be done.

Jessica: [00:04:57] Some parents feel compelled to pull their kids out of school or homeschool or now with everything going on, with virtual schooling, that totally makes sense. But when the parents want to take their kids out of school, I have a serious conversation with them about why and what the benefits are and what the drawbacks are. I don’t think a lot of times parents realize that they might be helping their child for the moment and hurting them in the long run especially with avoidance.

It might be reinforcing their avoidance unintentionally. I mean, the parents are doing it because they want their kids to be avoidant. They’re doing it because their kid is struggling in school, is complaining, and all of that stuff. It seems like a straightforward solution, but sometimes kids need to learn how to get through that struggle.

How Jessica Recognized OCD in Her Child?

[00:05:45] I really recognize that with my daughter early on, because on top of her having OCD, she had selective mutism and that was difficult. It wasn’t at home though. It was only at school. She would talk. We didn’t know for the first year. She would talk at home non-stop about everything.

[00:06:08] She tells us everything that somebody did wrong at school. Got out of line, all this stuff, but at school she never said a word. It wasn’t until she got her finger stuck in a table at school and all the kids had gone inside and they realized they were missing one. They went back out and she was silently crying and they called me and they’re like, ”well, this happened.”

[00:06:29] I’m like, “Oh, accidents happen.” “Kids stick their fingers in tables.” “She’s not seriously hurt.” “It’s fine.” They’re like, “Yeah, we just didn’t know. She sat out there for about five minutes because she was so quiet.” I’m like, “Wait, what do you mean she was quiet?” They’re like, “Yeah, she never talks at school” and I’m like, “what?” That’s when I realized. She was at that point in kindergarten. She’d gone there for pre-K for two years and apparently, the most she ever talked was a whisper, and nobody ever mentioned that.

It’s really strange but once we figured it out. Once we realized what was going on, we just started having her talk to strangers, talk to anybody and everybody and she got out of that habit pretty quick.

Carrie: So she was comfortable with talking to family members and that didn’t make her anxious, but when it was outside family members, she was really nervous to communicate to them.

Jessica: She would talk if somebody was close to her. If she felt like she had permission or if she felt safe, she would do it. She talked to her teacher when we went to the parent-teacher conference. So I didn’t know it was happening until they’re like, “Yeah, but I thought you knew because she was always that way.” They thought it was just something that was an abnormality of her, and I was like, “I guess it is.” [00:07:51] It’s just not one that she presents everywhere, which is one of the things that clued us in very quickly to her selective mutism.

Carrie: I wonder if it was really hard for you at times to push your daughter towards things that you knew were going to be good for her while seeing how much distress she was in.

Using Positive Talk And Helping The Child Face The Things They Are Afraid Of

Jessica: [00:08:10] Absolutely, nobody wants to see their child in pain but when you know that it’s the same thing as getting them to ride a bike or talk to a friend for the first time. You know it’s hard for them, but you know it’s good for them.

We use a lot of positive self-talk and trying to build that without it also becoming a compulsion, is a bit of a trick, That’s one of the things that we figured out of just reminding, “you’ve done this before,” “you’ve done things like this” “you can do this.” I would only say it once and then she would be expected to do. One of the other things that I say that annoys her profusely is “you’re fine” “you can do this.” The more that we challenge her, the easier it gets, the less resistance I get.

What I’ve seen clinically is that parents that struggle to push their kids in the beginning, they get a lot more resistance. They have a lot more trouble with it, but afterwards, once they get in a habit of pushing the kids to expand their horizons, they get better and it gets easier the more they do it.

Carrie: And the more that you start to face the things that you’re afraid of, the more internal confidence that you develop, and that carries you to the next exposure, so to speak.

Jessica: Right and giving them the confidence to recognize that they just need to lean into the anxiety instead of backing away from it.

Jessica’s Scope Of Work

Carrie: [00:09:41] You are a Licensed Professional Counselor and also a Certified Psychological Assistant. I wanted to ask you, tell us a little bit about your work environment and the kind of things that you do there.

Jessica: Well, I have a lot of roles. I have a wonderful plaque in my office that says I’m the “Vice President of Miscellaneous Stuff.” [00:10:08] Here at Sabin Behavioral Health, I am the operations director, but I also do a lot of intake interviews with the other two psychologists that we have. We also do neuro-psych testing. So we’re often screening individuals for memory-related or cognitive-related changes or neurocognitive dysfunction as well as just looking at general psychiatric-related difficulties and determining what course of action needs to be taken if they need to have a psychological evaluation or a neuropsychological evaluation. or if they are in the process or in need of therapy. Those kinds of things.

We see individuals from as young as four and as old as in the nineties. We have had somebody that was ninety-five, but we don’t get that very often, but it does happen.

[00:10:57] We kind of run into a gamut of different difficulties. We treat everything that runs in the DSM except for probably antisocial personality disorder because most people don’t see those in the private setting. Outside of that, we pretty much deal with almost anything. I have had exposure, response prevention training multiple times and so I treat individuals that have OCD, spectrum disorders, some including body dysmorphia, trichotillomania, hair-pulling, and skin picking as well as OCD.

Me and Dr. Hanson and one of the psychologists here will treat individuals with obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, which is different than OCD. It’s a bit challenging but it can be very rewarding once you get people to understand how their behavior is affecting their life.

I mostly deal with adolescents and adults, but I do see kids. So just not very many. I love doing the hierarchy. I think it’s very rewarding and reinforcing not only for me but for the individual to work on their anxiety and kind of getting them to push through it.

What is ERP and How Does It Work?

Carrie: [00:12:13] Right. Can you tell people a little bit about what a hierarchy is?

Jessica: Part of exposure-response prevention (ERP) is you sit down with the individual and go through a list of everything that bothers them. I am always amazed even though I know it’s going to happen, but every single time I’m amazed with all the depends. [00:12:30] Well, what does it depend on? Getting all of those things out. There are varying opinions on where you start. Personally, I’m not extreme, I don’t just throw people in and do exposures. Usually, the first four sessions are working on rapport building and building trust so we can get to a place where they know that I’m not trying to hurt them.

[00:12:55] There are some other people who do exposure response prevention (ERP) that do very traditional exposure response prevention that you know, from day one, “okay, this bothers you, we’re going to work on it.” I’ve found that in this setting, it’s not as advantageous just because people that are coming here are having gone through other therapies that didn’t work for OCD. People that go to centers that just treat OCD usually already know they have OCD and they’ve tried other things and they didn’t work. So it’s easier for you to just say, “Okay, this is what we’re going to do and we’re jumping right into it.” [00:13:28] But in this setting, I found that easing people into it is a little bit better because often, even if they have OCD, they usually have some other issues that are interfering with their life. And so I take a little bit of time to show them how changing can be beneficial and we work on some of those easier issues like communication and with the younger kids, emotional recognition. Just recognizing what you’re feeling and labeling it.

One of the fun things to do with some of the younger kids and sometimes with adults is we label their OCD. We give it a fun name. So when we talk about it like it’s a person external from them, that has two benefits, one is it speeds up communication because you’re like, “Oh, you know, that’s just my OCD again” or like “I see my OCD is interfering with this conversation or whatever.” It’s fun to come up with ridiculous names for them.

[00:14:31] The other benefit is helping them understand that it is an external issue. It’s not who they are as a person. And it helps me internalize that difficulty and also recognize how it interferes with their life, but it’s not them doing it to themselves. It gives them a safe place to talk about some of their intrusive thoughts because they can be very embarrassing. They can be very damaging to their family.

I’ve had a client before that was afraid of accidentally assaulting his sister, so he avoided her and they didn’t understand because they were younger. He had no desire to do those things, but he just had an intrusive thought about, “What if I did that?” And so he was mortified for saying that out loud. We gave him a space to talk about it and understand how intrusive thoughts aren’t things that we want. We all have intrusive thoughts. Some people say it’s the sticky brain but for people with OCD, those thoughts have a tendency to resonate a little longer and they give them more value than you.

[00:15:36] We would just have a thought and be like, “Oh, that’s weird, whatever.” For people with OCD, they have a tendency to think about it, engage with it more, and then it leads to more anxiety. Then they developed behavior or some kind of a compulsive ritual to minimize, reduce, negate, whatever that intrusive thought.

[00:15:59] I really do believe that not only engaging those intrusive thoughts but also kind of playing them out like, “Okay, what would that look like if you did that?” “What would happen?” And kind of going through those steps, doing some in vivo exposures can be really helpful in the beginning.

[00:16:19] So they see that you’re not trying to hurt them. It’s just you’re trying to get them to understand that fear is controlling them.

Dealing with Clients With Different Level Of Insights

Carrie: Right. I think it’s important to point out that people who have OCD tend to be relatively intelligent, at least the ones that I’ve worked with. They’re aware enough to know that these thoughts are irrational and don’t make sense to them. [00:16:42] So then there tends to be some shame about getting stuck on this particular thought that I know makes no sense.

Jessica: Well, there are varying levels of insight. People seek out therapy most often especially adults who have better insight and they come in saying things like, “I feel crazy” “I feel like I’m losing my mind” “I feel like I’m out of control.” They recognize that something is off and they don’t know what it is, but they know something’s off.

I’ve worked with people that have poor insight. It’s a bit more challenging because getting them to recognize that they have this thought doesn’t mean that will actually happen, can be very difficult, but over time I found bringing in family members and collateral support in those situations is very effective. When you start to get them to realize that what they think will happen, isn’t going to happen, they get better insight. They get faster at progressing through the treatment.

[00:17:37] I always tell people that treatment for OCD is teaching a counterfactual. It’s teaching you that something you believe isn’t true. And so that’s really hard to teach somebody that what they think is going to happen isn’t going to happen without putting them in that situation. [00:17:58] That’s why we do a lot of activities, a lot of exposure. I won’t ask them to do anything that I wouldn’t be willing to do myself. It doesn’t matter if it’s gross. It’s not going to hurt me, but if there is something like I haven’t come across anything that I’m just like, “nope, I’m not going to do that” but like all sorts of dealing with different bodily fluids or things that look like bodily fluids and eating things off of toilet seats, done it all. I’ve even had a client that, well, it doesn’t count because it wasn’t wet, we licked it, stuck it on the toilet seat, and then ate a gummy bear. [00:18:36] I didn’t die. I didn’t get sick. It feels weird, absolutely.

Carrie: So you did that exposure with them? You ate the gummy bear off the toilet?

Jessica: Yeah. I’m not going to ask them to do something and I’m like, ‘’Oh no, that’s disgusting, I won’t do it.”

[00:18:53] I’ve even played with animal poop. It’s gross. Been there, done that. I was like, “Okay, it smells bad.” We sat with it and talked with it and I’m like, “Okay, now we’re going to wash our hands.” That was part of that exposure.

I’ve had clients sometimes who’ve social anxiety, or if clients have OCD and have social anxiety, we use the exposure treatment as well for that. [00:19:22] My favorite thing is we make an extremely difficult coffee list and we walk over to Dunkin donuts. And they have to order it. I order it really, really fast and then they have to order it.

The people at Dunkin donuts are extremely supportive. They like, “see it’s come in.” They’ve caught on. I’ve never told them what’s going on, but they’ve caught on to what’s going on. So they’re very supportive ever and they’re just being patient with this. And we go through all activities and take a lot of deep breaths and do that depending on their age. I will encourage them to take deep breaths. When they’re older, I won’t prompt them to do any self-regulation activities, but some of the younger kids, if you don’t do that, they’ll just give up. [00:20:06] So it is a preventative, “don’t give up,” “just take a deep breath” “you’ve got this”.

Carrie: I think what you’re talking about really goes to having to have a great relationship with your therapist like you said, so people know that I’m not trying to do something to hurt you. [00:20:25] This is actually going to help you in the long run. What’s painful in the short term will be helpful in the long run, but also this element of being able to be authentic, not asking clients to do anything that you wouldn’t do. And it encourages people to stay engaged in the process because quite frankly, it’s hard sometimes, and it’s very hard and ERP has a pretty high dropout rate.

Jessica: [00:20:55] Especially with younger clients. I tell the parents because I feel like, for the parents, it’s just as hard. So I will tell them early on that we’ll do a hard week and then a soft week and then a hard week to get the kids going because if they think that it’s always going to be hard, they start avoiding therapy. [00:21:14] And that was early on. So like some of the fun sessions, the soft sessions as I call them are working on emotional recognition. We’ll spend the whole hour processing the previous exposure, things like that, just to show them how well they did and kind of gas them up and get them ready for the next one because I feel like without that they think I’m just evil and I’m mean, and they don’t want to come around.

[00:21:38] I think in certain settings, somebody could do traditional exposure response prevention where it’s gung-ho from hit the ground, running and go, but I don’t know that many people are tolerant of that. I’ve had some clients that come in and they’re like, “This is what I want to do.” and I’m like, “all right, let’s go” “we can do it.”

[00:21:56] That’s generally not what I’ve found, especially with younger children because a lot of times you’re also having to console and prevent the parents from using accommodations because they don’t mean to, but they do. And so you have to help them recognize that this exposure is just as much for them to get used to it as it is for the kid.

Differences Between Licenses and Certifications In Psychology

Carrie: [00:22:18] So just to clarify for everyone that’s listening, as far as titles and things like that because it’s very easy to get confused when you’re looking at counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists, and there are so many labels out there. So you work with psychologists? And psychologists are responsible for testing.

Jessica: [00:22:42] Well, not just testing but the American Psychological Association has carved out there that psychologists are the only ones allowed to do testing in most settings. The way that it’s actually set up is the certified psychological assistant does the testing and the psychologist actually is the one that interviews them, writes the reports, and does the feedback.

We’re a little different here plus I have both of the licenses. I am allowed to do diagnosis because I am a licensed professional counselor with the mental health service provider designation. My situation is a little bit different, but I will tell you that Tennessee and California are the only ones that really have certified psychological assistance. [00:23:22] Most other States have what is here as a senior psych examiner. So other settings, if somebody is outside of Tennessee, they might see a counselor that can also do testing. That’s just not the case here. I will tell you most people when they go and get their education, they specialize, and so even outside of Tennessee, most people do one or the other. It’s very, very rare that they do both.

Carrie: People tend to do testing or counseling, is that what you’re saying?

Jessica: On the master’s level, yes. Psychologists, however, depending on how they get their degree on what they focus on. You can get a clinical psychology degree or you can get a counseling psychology degree. You can get a forensic one. There are lots of specialties but it’s up to them to ensure that they get the training and requirements to be able to perform those services. Ultimately just being a psychologist in Tennessee, it gives them the access permission to do psychological evaluations and to do counseling.

[00:24:21] It’s also important for people to understand that the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist because I feel like that’s where a lot of people misunderstand. In Tennessee and in most other States. Psychologists cannot write prescriptions. They are a PhD, not an MD and for a psychiatrist. They can prescribe medication and they can do brief counseling services, but very few psychiatrists have the time to do that because there is a shortage of psychiatrists. The last psychiatrist that I knew that actually sat down into counseling retired. So most of them maybe we’ll do psycho-education with patients, but they don’t actually do any of that counseling services, like exposure, response prevention. Usually, that’s left to the counselors or to a psychologist.

Importance of Proper Diagnosis

Carrie:[00:25:12] What do you think is the benefit of proper diagnosis? Because I think sometimes people are very hesitant to get a label, but if you’re labeled with or diagnosed with anxiety and you actually have OCD, that can be detrimental to you.

Jessica: I’ve seen counselors that had good intent trying to help a client. [00:25:36] They were unintentionally becoming an enabler for their OCD by accidentally giving them reassurance when they’re reassurance seeking or telling them that it’s understandable that they have irrational fears and things like that, which inadvertently reinforces the irrational beliefs. And it exacerbates the problem and it gets worse. [00:25:59] They will, in that situation often get addicted to their counselor, not addicted in the sense of an addiction, but as a person that accommodates them. They will seek that person out to reassure them. That can be very devastating when a counselor changes or things like that, and the fact that they’re not going to get better. It’s just shifting their compulsive behaviors.

[00:26:21] It’s not changed. It’s not getting to the root of it. I often refer to OCD as a personality disorder. It’s one of those things that comes up and goes away when they’re not stressed out. It doesn’t really go away. It just gets better. It’s easier to tolerate. It kind of ebbs and flows with their stress level.

[00:26:39] When somebody gets really stressed, they will get very entrenched in some of their compulsive behaviors. If one of those compulsive behaviors is seeking reassurance on a regular basis, they can be very hard on counselors. With emails, phone calls, appointments in between, and it’s not their fault. It’s because that person makes them feel good for a second and so they want to feel relief for a second. The problem with the compulsions is they relieve the anxiety. They just kind of take the edge off, but it also does is increase the global level of the person’s anxiety. [00:27:18] So each time they do it, it just takes a little bit of the edge off, but the anxiety continues to grow and so it kind of defeats the purpose. That’s why it’s beneficial to get at the root of the intrusive thought and really address that than it is to address the compulsions. You just prevent them from doing the compulsions.

Why Proper Diagnosis Is Important In The Treatment of OCD?

Carrie:[00:27:36] When you’re doing the exposures, do you find that you have people who seek out psychological testing who have been in counseling aren’t getting better and are trying to figure out why?

Jessica: Actually more frequently, we see counselors sending people to us saying, “I’ve done everything I’m supposed to do” “something is wrong here, something isn’t adding up.” And they’ll send them to us and clarify the diagnosis and send them back. That’s very helpful for a lot of counselors. They’re trained in making diagnoses, but some of them may be new. Diagnosis are so intertwined and it’s possible that somebody has OCD and generalized anxiety. [00:28:17] The likelihood of that is low, but it’s possible.

Sometimes counselors will take diagnosis that where somebody was hospitalized or a diagnosis from a doctor, things like that. And they’re kind of following off of this assumption that that’s accurate information, but they don’t realize that in those other settings, somebody only saw it for a snapshot usually when they’re not in a good place. So it’s not very accurate and so doing psychological testing can be beneficial for even somebody that’s just starting out in counseling. The reason it can be beneficial is it helps speed up the therapy process in that you don’t fall into landmines. You don’t fall into, “Oh, why weren’t we talking about this the whole time.”

[00:29:00] It already starts coming out in the evaluation. So even if the client struggles to recognize some of the difficulties that they have, we can’t just by making a full diagnosis, we can still alert to ”there is an issue in this area” so then it can be addressed in counseling.

Carrie: I know that in my experience, providing a proper diagnosis has been very relieving and helpful for clients who have been labeling themselves with other things such as “I’m crazy”, or “there’s something really awfully wrong with me.” [00:29:37] And when you’re able to say, “okay, well these symptoms lineup with this diagnosis” and it actually makes sense. Not only that, but there’s hope because this is something that’s treatable. We can help you with this. We can help you have a better life.

Jessica: It’s also making something that’s very vague, very distinct, and it gives them a path that they can work on. It helps them see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I believe that by doing psychological evaluations, I really build buy-in with clients. You get more effort into changing their behavior. If they know what you see and the way that you see it, they know what we think in that situation. [00:30:17] They get to look at it in black and white, just the way we do and so we’re working on the same thing. It’s not like that old bully for the psychologist or most people think of old Freudian psychoanalysts sitting back behind you on a couch and just taking notes about you and all that stuff. What we’re doing is I want it to be dynamic. I want it to be an interactive process. I’m here to help you. I’m not here to tell you what to do. I’m here to guide you what I think might be beneficial. I could be wrong. You need to tell me so we can discuss it. And so it’s an exchange rather than a dictation.

Carrie: [00:30:55] That’s good. I like that a lot. I would say that collaboration is really helpful for the things that we just talked about. We want people to come back. We want them to be involved and engaged and so we want this to be working for them. If something’s not working, it’s helpful for people to let us know that so we can shift gears a little bit.

Jessica: And move the needle. I always say therapy isn’t about getting you to the end really fast. It’s about moving the needle every time. We just want to move it a little bit more and a little bit more.

One of the other things that testing does that makes it very helpful is that every client, at some point plateaus. They’ll start to plateau. [00:31:35] Even though they’ve got more work to do, having the psychological evaluation, you can go back and show them how far they’ve gone, how much they’ve grown. So this is where you were in this stage, “look how far you’ve come.” That gives them a little bit of that inertia to keep going. The push from the inertia. I think that is one of the things that’s really beneficial for doing the evaluation. I do know that it can be time-consuming because it takes time to get the authorization from the insurance company and those kinds of things, but I think the information that comes out of it is very relevant clinically. [00:32:08] It gives you a kind of an approach. It gives you information on modalities that are more beneficial for that person instead of just kind of going in blindly and taking six weeks to figure that out. We can use that time to do the evaluation and kind of move things forward.

Jessica’s Story of Hope

Carrie: Since this podcast is called Hope for Anxiety and OCD, I like to ask the guests at the end of our show to share a story of hope, which is the time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.

Jessica: [00:32:41] Well, I feel like I get hope every time somebody is successfully improving. I had a client that came in. He’s a middle-aged man. He was convinced he was narcissistic. He was convinced he was a narcissist and so in talking to him, it was really that he had OCD. He was just very entrenched in his compulsive behaviors, and so he would force them on other people. He thought that he must’ve been narcissistic to do that.

He successfully terminated treatment. We got to the end. He was doing great and the last therapy session I’m like, “You still feel like a narcissist?” He got so much better about being able to talk about what was bothering him.It improved his marriage, it improved his work relationships. He had even gotten fired from a few jobs because of how his behavior was so ingrained. That gave me a lot of hope. It gave me hope, not only for my own child but hope for my other clients that things can get better. You just have to keep working at it.

[00:33:48] It’s a process. It’s about the journey, not the sprint. You got gotta stay on it on the long haul. It’s about making sure that you’re moving the needle. It’s not about making anything happen quickly because if it happens quick, it doesn’t stick. I really believe that and that’s what gives me hope for clients. That it’s about using behavioral techniques and efforts to help them understand their cognitions to change their behavior, which is the epitome of cognitive behavioral therapy.

Carrie It’s always so exciting when people are at a healthy level of coping where they feel they’re in a good place to stop therapy. [00:34:30] That’s just a really exciting time. It’s like, “let’s celebrate and let’s talk about how far you’ve come” and “call me if you need anything.” That’s awesome.

Jessica: I go as far as giving them a certificate and telling them it’s revocable at any time, so they can come back whenever they need to. “Here’s your literal certificate” “You’ve done all the hard work.” “You earned it, you earned your degree because it is hard.” And if somebody trivializes that and doesn’t take it as serious, you have a tendency to get people that drop out of counseling before, but just because they think things were better, better doesn’t mean great, it just means better.

[00:35:03] We want to get things where they’re moving in the right direction and you’re not likely to have any kind of relapse of it because OCD is insidious. It’s anxiety in general. They’re both very ingrained in our world and they’re required for function of life. So if we just remove anxiety, that wouldn’t be good for people either. We have to get to where they’re back at a more normal, responsive range and that’s important. It’s kind of hard to do, but sometimes things can hit people really hard and out of the blue. The world gets turned upside down and some of those old behaviors can have spontaneous recovery of those old behaviors, and so teaching them the tools on how to deal with it. Sometimes they can manage it on their own. Sometimes they come back to therapy, but knowing that we’re here is what’s important for me. They know that they can come back at any time. We can talk about it when we figure out what needs to happen.

I have had a client come back after three or four years and it was due to, they lost their wife and so it was grief and we’re like, “Okay, this is grief” “We can work through this, absolutely.” They were afraid that it was going to cause their OCD to come back, but it was really just working through the grief. At least they also felt very comforted knowing that they had somewhere to go in that moment instead of having to start from the beginning because the idea of that was overwhelming.

Carrie: [00:36:33] Well, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing with us your wisdom about a variety of topics. I think it was great.

Jesicca: You’re welcome.

______________________________________________________________

I just want to say that if you’ve been in therapy for a pretty good chunk of time and you haven’t been able to see improvements, it’s really an opportunity for you and your therapist to sit down and evaluate why that is because there may be several different reasons that you’re not getting better. It may be a situation where you’re having a hard time integrating what you’re learning and practicing it at home. It may be a situation where, what you’re trying to receive from your therapist, they might not have as much training on, or it may be that their approach might not be working for you.

Jessica’s talking about moving the needle, if you’re in therapy and you don’t feel like your needle is moving, it’s really important for you to evaluate why. Definitely, get the help that you need and if you’re stumped and your therapist is stumped, then psychological testing may be the next best step for you.

I hope that sharing this information will really help someone get what they need. If you really like the show and you find the content valuable, will you do me a huge favor? Will you go on your favorite podcast platform and review us. I would appreciate that so much. Reviews really give a personal firsthand account of what people can expect from our show.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of by the world counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

5. Can God Use Your Anxiety for Good? Rhett Smith, LMFT

Written by Carrie Bock on November 18, 2020. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 5. Can God Use Your Anxiety for Good? Rhett Smith, LMFT

Anxiety is often seen as a negative, something we ask God to take away from us. In episode 4 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Author Rhett Smith discusses how God can use anxiety for good in our lives.

Rhett’s story of transitioning from pastoring to therapy
How anxiety can be used for good
Rhett’s view on pastors going to therapy
How pastors and ministry leaders can support those in the congregation with anxiety

Resources and links:
Verses discussed: Philippians 4:6, 2:20, 2:28

By The Well Counseling
Rhett Smith
The Anxious Christian:
Restoration Therapy
MMPI assessment
CS Lewis quote: “Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.”

The Science Behind Engaging with Music for Anxiety Relief with Tim Ringgold
Ruling Out Physical Contributions to Anxiety with Melanie Lowe, NP

Transcript Of Episode 5

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 5.

Today’s episode, you are going to get to hear my interview with Rhett Smith. It was an amazing privilege to be able to interview him. He is a former pastor, licensed marriage and family therapist, ministry leader, speaker, podcaster, and also the author of the book, The Anxious Christian, Can God Use Your Anxiety For Good?

Rhett has some really great things to share with us about the use of a famous verse for anxiety, Philippians 4:6 regarding how sometimes we use this verse and sometimes we don’t.

So diving in today, here is my interview with Rhett Smith.

Carrie: For those that don’t know you, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Rhett: I am in private practice in Plano, Texas, which is kind of a suburb of Dallas. I’ve been in private practice for probably about 10 to 12 years. I primarily work with couples and families. I do a lot of individual work too, but I’m trained and licensed as a marriage and family therapist.

[00:01:36] I spend about half of my week, about two days a week seeing people in my office and then over the last year and a half, I got more into executive coaching and went back to school at SMU to do some more training. I am currently working with some vice-presidents and stuff and some different organizations here in the Dallas area. I’m doing some executive coaching and helping them perform at a higher level. On the side when I have time, I enjoy doing stuff like this, like podcasting and do a little bit of writing and a little bit of speaking. I would say though those are primarily what takes up my time.

I’m married to my wife, Heather and I have a 13-year-old daughter who starts eighth grade tomorrow and a ten-year-old son who starts fourth grade tomorrow online. We’re trying to be flexible and anticipate, whatever happens, happens.

Carrie: I also saw on your website that you were a runner.

Rhett: I do like to run. I’ve always run my entire life just a little bit here and there. I was in track in high school, but short distance.

The short story is that my brother said, “Hey, you wanna run a marathon for this organization to raise money?” And I said, “Okay” and so I ran my first marathon in 2006. Prior to that run, no more than maybe three miles at a time, I started getting into running and the distance has got longer. I did a 50k and then I did a 50 miler.

[00:03:12] In February, I just completed my first 100k, which is about 62 miles. These are all now primarily trails. I do it mainly because it’s a way for me to kinda have my own therapy, to get out, and to have some solitude and silence. It’s just a way to take care of myself and exercise since I sit in a chair a lot during the week. For me, it’s just a huge outlet and I really enjoy it.

Carrie: Yeah. I can definitely attest to that. Exercise helps with mental health.

Rhett: For sure it does.

From A Full time Pastor to A Therapist, Providing Mental Health Support to Pastors and Business Leaders

Carrie: So you had talked about doing some executive coaching. Do you have a background in business then too? Were you involved in business before therapy?

Rhett: No. Before therapy, I was a pastor, full-time. I had gone to seminary out of college. I actually planned to do this in college. I wanted to be a psychologist and I took a church history class in my senior year and it changed my life. I decided to go to seminary. I went to Fuller Theological Seminary there in California. I started off at the extension campus in Arizona and I was working at my Alma mater, which at the time, was a small Southern Baptist School called Grand Canyon University. I was working there and going to school and then I moved to California. I was required to do a church internship as a part of that. I landed at a church called Bel-Air Presbyterian Church and I was working in the college ministry on the campuses of USC and UCLA. Just by weird kind of circumstances, they ended up putting my name in the hat. They’re on the search for a new college pastor.

I didn’t really want to be in ministry. I just went to seminary to do a PhD. I wanted to teach and I ended up getting the job. I was the college pastor there in Los Angeles for about seven to eight years. I have no business background but it was in the ministry and the way that I got into therapy was just working with college students day in and day out.

I realized that what I love was not the preaching and the speaking, but was the one-on-one and helping people through difficult times.

I just felt ill-equipped to handle some of the more difficult situations. So I decided to go back to Fuller Seminary when I was pastoring. I did my marriage and family therapy program there. I think the combined experience of working with pastors and leaders and doing therapy just helped in such a way that all of a sudden, I had business leaders and organizations asked me to come to speak to their leaders about mental health, how to deal with difficult relationships, or what our boundaries are like in the workplace. I found myself in the business world with no really quote-unquote business experience except building my own practice.

I really enjoyed that aspect of work too. Working with business leaders to help them figure out how to perform at higher levels and how to actually take care of themselves. To be honest, even though it’s not a therapy, most of them are like, “Hey, I don’t mind if you do a little therapy.” So I’m in this weird place kind of spending time between church work, kind of corporate world, and in my own private practice. I just kind of learned a lot along the way.

Carrie: What’s really interesting though, I would imagine is that there’s a lot of overlap and relationship principles. You can apply those anywhere. You can apply those in your marriage. You can apply them at work. You can apply them in your corporation. So there’s probably a lot of overlap in that wisdom.

Rhett: Yeah. I would think in my experience, any of the training that we’ve done, especially when relationships and family systems and stuff is that it’s really easy to apply to organizational systems. I may have to change the language a little bit in terms of how we communicate and the tools that I might use, but what I’ve come to learn recently is that there’s really nothing new under the sun. Everyone is saying the same thing. It’s just that we’re all coming from different angles. I’ve enjoyed stepping into that world and I feel kind of green and new at it, but I’ve learned a lot.

Equipping Pastors To Deal with Mental Health Related Issues

Carrie: That’s awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about the training that you’re doing with pastors on mental health issues?

Rhett: One of my mentors is Terry Hargrave. He’s at Fuller Theological Seminary and he founded a model called restoration therapy. I got into that by doing some marriage intensives back in 2010 to 2014. Up at a ranch here in Texas, we would bring couples in and do these marriage intensives. The model that we used was his model, which eventually he kind of built into a bigger framework and started training therapists.

I was trained early on in his model and I’ve been really close to him. Over the course of the last several years, he and his wife, Sharon who’s on staff at the Boone Center for Marriage and Family at Pepperdine University, got together with some other leaders from Azusa Pacific and Fuller Seminary. They decided that we need to equip and train pastors. Pastors are overwhelmed and busy. They deal with all kinds of issues. They’re the frontline that people bring all kinds of issues to them, so they put together a team of about seven to nine people with experience in different issues related to mental health.

We’ve recently had some of our work published through Barna as part of a relationship kind of mental health piece. I’ll be doing that again in a few weeks and I’m looking forward to that.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think pastors oftentimes are ill-equipped to deal with mental health issues and so providing that training is really crucial because they are on the front lines and people are coming to them with problems.

Rhett: Yeah. It’s a lot to ask a pastor to, who at the most maybe was required or given one class on counseling and seminary and then everyone comes to them for everything.

There’s this huge gap I think. There’s a lot of opportunities to come alongside pastors and to be a resource for them and help them in any way that we can. Being a former pastor myself, I feel like that’s really important.

Integrating Faith With Pyschological Tools

Carrie: Do you find that some are hesitant to refer out because they aren’t sure if people are going to be getting sound biblical advice or feedback on their issues?

Rhett: Yes for sure. You talked about going to Denver Seminary and I went to Fuller Seminary and a lot of my friends are going to Dallas Seminary. So depending on the education, people and pastors are concerned about what kind of therapy it is going to be. Is it going to be biblical therapy? Is it going to be some type of Nouthetic therapy, which is basically the only counseling you provide is that you open the Bible and point to specific verses or it might be like new age therapy.

I guess what I tell pastors is my job as a therapist is to bring the best psychological tools and to integrate my faith into that process. That’s how I was trained. What I find is if I have a good relationship with the pastor, then they feel safe and trustworthy. Also, we’ll create a list of different therapists in the area that I think are really great at what they do. We’ll give those to pastors as well.

I think that is a huge fear for pastors and I understand that, but I think it’s changed over the years. I don’t see that fear nearly as much as I used to. I think churches have done a good job of vetting who they think is best for their congregation. I always tell people, if you’re looking for a therapist and you don’t know, just go to your church. They usually have a list of therapists that they highly recommend.

Misapplied Bible Verses About Anxiety

Carrie: You wrote a book about anxiety called, “The Anxious Christian”, which I wanted us to dive into a little bit, but before we do that, I wanted to talk a little bit about this verse, Philippians 4:6, “Be anxious for nothing…”

There are a lot of Christians struggling with anxiety and they tell me that they feel shame around this, first because they’ve tried so hard not to be anxious through prayer. They’ve tried to bring everything to God. They’ve tried to ask Him to take their anxiety away.

Are there times you feel where we as Christians misapply this verse or are taken out of context?

Rhett: Yes. I think that’s the verse that got me really interested in writing more about this topic because like you, I have people coming to my office and they needed help. They had reached out to someone, maybe a ministry leader or a friend, and that verse I think was meant in good intention, but it was received in a way that made them feel ashamed like their faith wasn’t good enough. They ended up in a counseling office with someone they didn’t know but that was the only safe place.

[00:13:17] In some ways, I feel that’s a tragedy that they had to go somewhere where they didn’t even know anyone to talk through this. I do think it’s misapplied. We can talk about this at length, but in short, the flow of that whole book is there’s a lot going on. The word there in Philippians 4:6 that Paul uses for anxiety, which says, “Do not be anxious” is the same word he uses for anxiety in Philippians 2:20. He talks about the anxiety that his ministry leader, Epaphroditus had. He says Epaphroditus has anxiety for the people there because he cares about them. Paul uses that same word.

In Philippians 2:28, Paul talks about basically the lessening of his own anxiety. He uses a different word there for depression. They’re also in Philippians 2 and so you get this really interesting passage where Epaphroditus has anxiety. Paul talks about the lessening of his anxiety. You get to Philippians 2, it’s about Christ coming down in suffering on our behalf.

Paul is someone who’s been through a lot of difficult times. I think in the flow of everything he says, “don’t be anxious”, but if you are, in Philippians 4: 7-8, he says, “do these things.”

I think in the context, they actually acknowledged that there’s anxiety present in their lives, that we can go to God and we cannot be anxious, but if we are, there are some things that we can do. I just think the whole flow has to be applied when we talk to people about it, rather than just say, “don’t be anxious.” That does a disservice to people.

Carrie: Yeah. I love the other verses in that section that talk about “The Lord is near” and you think about like your kids when they were little, just you being there, sometimes is that calming presence for them. It’s like, “I’m here. I’m with you, you don’t need to be afraid.”

Rhett: Yeah. In 4:7-8, he basically talks about whatever is beautiful and Holy and loving, he says, “Meditate on these things.”

Paul knows thousands of years before we have the science to know it, that the things that we think about, change our beliefs. The things that we are to believe, change our actions. I think Paul has a lot of grace for people and the whole flow of the text needs to be taken into consideration.

We need to handle people in a very loving way who come to us with anxiety or depression or some other mental health issue.

Rhett’s Journey Of Anxiety And His Book, The Anxious Christian

Carrie: You make this argument in your book that a lot of Christians I think are focused on, “God, please just take this away, please.” “Can I get rid of it, please?” “I don’t want to deal with anxiety anymore. Just release me from it.”

You make the point that God can use your anxiety for good. How have you seen that played out in your own life? Or can you talk about that a little bit more?

Rhett: I think I first thought about that idea because I grew up in a family where my mom had breast cancer when I was six and she passed away when I was 11. I talk about that in my book. That was the day that I began to stutter and I still stutter sometimes but it’s pretty rare.

That was the day also that anxiety was kind of introduced into my life. What I noticed over time was that the really beautiful things that happened in my life were the things that I was able to work through my anxiety. Anxiety propelled me to work towards those things.

A couple of examples I use in the book is when I was a junior in college. I was asked to speak at our chapel for the Easter morning sunrise service. I’ve been praying about that, that God gave me an opportunity to speak somewhere just because I knew I needed to face my fears. I got a call to speak and I declined it. I remember getting off the phone saying, “I prayed about that.” I called them back up and said, “I’ll do it.” This is in 1996, almost 10 years after she (mother) had passed away. I remember getting up and speaking in front of an audience really for one of the first times and I stuttered my way through it.

I knew like something was about to change for me. This happened later on when I took the job at Bel-air. I remember saying to God, “Okay, I’ll take this job, but you have to show up for me and you have to speak for me.” What I started to notice is the things in my life that are really important. God somehow used that anxiety to propel me towards things because the anxiety was uncomfortable. [00:18:16] So it forced me to look for solutions. It forced me to look for ways to change and ways to grow.

Sitting With Anxiety As A Conversation Partner

Anxiety doesn’t leave you feeling comfortable if that makes sense. It was almost like the anxiety was God’s way of saying, “Get up and get moving. I’m not going to let you sit here. I’m not gonna let you just struggle in this” and so I just started to listen to my anxiety and pay attention to it.

If I’m working with people right now, I had them imagine like anxiety is a conversation partner. What is anxiety saying to you? How can you grow? I’ll use this metaphor: We all drive cars and our car has dash lights that tell us what’s going on underneath the hood and we paid attention to those things. Our car will run smooth and we’ll get to our destination. If we ignore those flashing lights, we’ll end up stranded, right? Or broken down. We just know physically and physiology and from the science that depression, anxiety are often just internal cues of something going on saying, “Hey, pay attention to me, pay attention to me.”

Reframing Anxiety And Following God’s Leading

[00:19:16] I encourage people that when they’re anxious or feeling depressed, ask yourself how you can listen to those things cause they might be a way of God guiding you and leading you. Do not see it as something’s wrong with you, but maybe there’s an opportunity for growth in here.

I know there’s lots of nuance around that. [00:19:36] I’m not saying God just gives us anxiety to grow us, but how do we reframe it as something wrong with us and more as maybe an opportunity to come alongside and to move in the direction God is guiding us.

Carrie: Right. I think for me, I resonate with the sense of, sometimes God calls you to do big things and I think it’s normal to be anxious in that process. For me, it caused me to lean more on God and rely on Him during that time. It’s also almost been in some ways a confirmation. I know I need to do this. I feel a spiritual piece of this is where God is leading me. I’m anxious about it because it’s bigger than me. It’s not something that I can do on my own. I need God to intervene.

Rhett: Yeah. I love that. I think there’s lots of good stories in the Bible where they may not use the word anxiety specifically in the text, but somebody is overwhelmed with the tasks that God has given them. Moses or Gideon or Peter, Paul, Mary, all of the people that they have to depend on God to get them through that situation.

I love that idea that it’s almost confirmation that if it’s too big, maybe you were on track.

How Churches and Pastors Can Support Mental Health

Carrie: How do you think pastors can really support Christians in their congregation who are struggling with some of these issues? How can they come alongside them and say, “You know, I’m here for you.”

Rhett: That’s a great question. I think it starts from the top down. It’s a ministry, it’s a pastor, or a ministry leader, or someone who leads the Bible study within the church or as a volunteer leader. I think the message actually has to come top-down. It needs to be something like, “we want you to know that it’s okay If you struggle with mental health issues, anxiety, depression.”

Number one, it’s okay. There’s not a stigma around it. I think that almost has to be verbally spoken and number two, we are going to look for ways to make it safe for you to find a community to talk about these issues within the organization.

Number three, we’re going to partner, pair up with other organizations or leaders within the mental health field if you feel we can’t support you, or even if we can, we’re going to bring other leaders in to help, guide us, or to give us some expertise in areas that we don’t have. You can get into a lot of details after that, but I think it starts with just the idea of a pastor getting up and saying, “it’s okay if you struggle and it’s okay if you’re anxious or depressed. This is a safe place to be in that moment and we’ll walk you through that.” I think if you do that, the other stuff will come in terms of how we execute mental health within the church and how we come alongside people.

Carrie: I think that’s huge. Just normalizing the struggles and saying like “that’s okay” because how many people, in the trajectory of their life, there’s a huge percentage of people who at some point or another are going to experience either anxiety or depression.

Rhett: Yeah and there’s a quote attributed to C.S Lewis and I can’t remember which writing it is but something like, “Two of the most beautiful words in the English language is “me too.” It’s like to know that “you’re not alone.” That other people suffer from this and I think if you say that out loud to people, a lot of beautiful opportunities will open up then in terms of how you can discern to come alongside each person in their own unique way.

Shame Around Mental Health In The Church

Carrie: One of the things that I ran across when I was doing this podcast was I had a couple of people telling me they were struggling with anxiety. It’s hard for me to talk about it in the church because people see me as a spiritual leader or as a pillar of faith. For me, when I start opening up about anxiety, they’re like, “no, not you.” So it almost gets this response of denial. I think that’s just a good thing to put out there for other Christians who may be in the congregation to say that when somebody is trying to tell you about their struggles, believe them and really hear them.

Rhett: Yeah. Statistics can be all over the place. When we’re talking about anxiety, for example, on average, about 18 percent of the American population, 18 and over is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. That’s someone who’s diagnosed. I saw the latest stats this year that said 33% and so it’s probably pretty high right now. Those are people who’ve actually gotten the help that they’re diagnosed with. They’ve seen the counselor, they’ve seen a doctor, they’ve seen a psychiatrist.

If I’m a pastor and I’m preaching, let’s say to a congregation of a hundred people. I could safely assume that 20 to 33 people in that audience have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder that says nothing about the other 70 people who probably have some level of anxiety or have experienced anxiety, but there’s shame around it or who haven’t gotten help or don’t even know they’re anxious because they’ve lived in that feeling for so long. That’s a huge amount of the people that you’re ministering to each week and that’s significant. That’s why I think the issue has to be addressed. I think it’s safe for pastors or it’s important for pastors to say from the top, down even if they haven’t shown anxiety, that it’s okay if you are.

Pastors Need Counseling Too

Carrie: [00:25:31] Having been a pastor yourself, do you feel it’s beneficial for pastors to receive counseling? Just to have an objective viewpoint, or be able to talk about the stressors that come with ministry.

Rhett: Yeah. I actually grew up in a pastor’s home too, my entire life. I credit my dad with that because there was never a stigma. I knew that he had seen counselors and stuff as well.

I think this is kind of a strong language, but I would say it’s a must. If you’re going to be in ministry, you need to have a counselor that you work with regularly. I was going through the ordination process and the PCUSA, I’m not ordained but my initial steps were I was required to have the MMPI Assessment on me cause they want to flesh out if people are stable and stuff and I had to see a counselor. I had already seen a counselor prior to that and then when I decided to do my MFT training in California, every hour, you see a therapist. They’ll give you three hours towards your state licensure. So I did hundred-plus sessions with a therapist there and then I continued that for a couple of years after I was working on my license. I have a therapist I work with here.

I probably see right now 20 to 25 different pastors within my practice. The pastors I see usually come from congregations where they’ve made that something as important.

As pastors, we want you to go get help, or we want you as a congregation to get help, but there are people who kind of come one-off from other churches. What I find is communities that have made it safe and told their pastors, “this is important.” I see pastors doing that.

I don’t know. I’m biased, but I think pastors should have a therapist they work with regularly. I think it’s dangerous not to. I think counselors should have counselors that they work with regularly. I mean, it’s important when you’re helping people that you have a place to get help and to have space to talk about things.

Carrie: There’s something about just clearing out your own junk that makes you more available to other people. I really believe that.

Rhett: Yeah. If you’re doing this work all day with people and doing pastoral counseling and doing the work that you do as a pastor or a counselor or health field, your bandwidth over time gets pretty frayed. You have less to give others. I see that in my own marriage and my own parenting and my friendships, I just have less to give over time. I’ve had to figure out ways to take care of myself and to get the help that I need so that I can be in these relationships with people.

I think pastors, there’s a heavy burden on them and so I just think they need an outlet, to have that safe, confidential outlet to wrestle through issues.

Carrie: I think what you’re kind of talking about a little bit is there’s this potential for burnout and that’s not just from ministry leaders, that’s other people as well. Moms can get really burnt out on what they’re doing and that can cause a lot of either the result of ongoing stress and anxiety until things just kind of crash.

Rhett: Yeah. I think burnouts can happen in any field. Lay or professional field, you may have noticed in your practice, the word burnout is being used more. Currently, I think with my clients, in the workshops that I’ve been doing, as COVID has dragged on and uncertainty is dragged on people have felt burnout.

You mentioned moms stay at home, parents are burned out, having to teach and to do other things that they were doing, parents are working from home. Burnout I think it’s not something you can usually anticipate. You can sense it coming on, but from what I gathered from the research and experience, all of a sudden, it just kind of hits you and then you can’t function.

I think we’re in an interesting time right now that’s why people are reaching out to mental health people, counselors, and therapists, getting help is probably pretty critical.

Rhett’s Story of Hope

Carrie: I think we pretty much covered the stuff. So, at the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Rhett: I knew that the question was coming in. It’s a really good question. I have to think about it for a while cause I feel fortunate that there’s a lot of people around me who’ve given me hope or who’ve encouraged me but the thing that came to mind was my daughter who I’d mentioned earlier is 13. She’s in theater at her school. Last year when she was in a theater production, I was watching and she had a couple of different parts where she spoke and I was watching her speak and she did it with confidence. That really hit me at the core. I think also because I pictured myself at her age and I was in a school play that you had to be in and I remember staring my way through that and living in fear and anxiety.

Seeing her being so competent, I think gave me a sense of hope that God changes and redeems situations. He transformed people’s lives. Even though I struggled with anxiety and stuttering and things were really difficult for me, He was able to help me work and to grow that it somehow changed my daughter’s life in such a way that she didn’t have to deal with those same struggles.

Though my daughter is not me. I felt like in some way it was a mirror God saying, “things are going to be okay.” It just gave me a sense of hope. I saw my younger version of myself in her and that’s been something I’ve thought a lot about, I think over the last probably five or six months since she had that play, that’s something I’ve been really encouraged by that through difficult times, things are gonna be okay. We’re going to be okay. We’re going to get through these times and God will redeem the situations and He’ll fix the broken pieces. That for me is huge.

Carrie: I think it’s really powerful seeing your child have something maybe that you didn’t have at that point in your life. That’s awesome. I’m so glad that you have that gift.

Rhett: As a therapist, I’ve just become aware that I’m going to mess my kids up. There’s no perfect parenting. The things that you don’t even intentionally do, kids just interpret in certain ways. So it’s given me a lot of hope to know that we do the best that we can and, and it’s not perfect. God’s going to work and it’s cool to see our kids inspire us. We didn’t thrive in ways that we thought we messed up.

I think that’s why I enjoy working with people in counseling. I’m able to see people’s lives changed and transformed, and sometimes it’s really slow and other times it’s overnight. That’s what keeps me engaged.

Carrie: I really appreciate you giving us the most valuable gift of your time today and talking about these issues with anxiety and church leaders. It’s just been incredible to just get your wisdom on these issues.

Rhett: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on. It’s been fun. I enjoy doing this stuff. Awesome.

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I really enjoyed that interview and I hope that you did too and were able to get something good out of it. If you want to continue the conversation with us, please hop on over to Instagram and Facebook. You can follow along with the show there and hopefully receive some microdoses of encouragement for your day.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.