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130. Need More Than Weekly Therapy? Is a Therapy Retreat Right for You? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie shares the benefits and outcomes of therapeutic retreats, how they are structured, and how to determine if a therapeutic retreat is right for you:

Episode Highlights:

  • The typical structure and process of a therapeutic retreat
  • The use of EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) and EMDR 2.0 techniques to process trauma and reduce distress.
  • Identifying who is a good candidate for intensive therapy and who might need more foundational work before participating in a retreat.
  • Real-life examples of clients who have benefited from intensive therapy
  • Tips for managing your resources when considering intensive therapy versus regular sessions.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I discuss the benefits of therapy retreats and intensive sessions, a service I’ve been offering for about a year and a half. For those who feel stuck in their healing journey or find that weekly therapy isn’t enough, a therapeutic retreat could be the answer. I walk through what these sessions look like, from setting intentions to deep trauma processing using techniques like EMDR 2.0 and parts work. These retreats allow us to dive deeper and make significant progress in a shorter amount of time.

I’ve seen incredible results with clients who have come from out of state for multi-day sessions. Whether you’re dealing with trauma, OCD, or phobias, these retreats provide the space and time to address core issues that may not surface in traditional therapy settings. We’re able to trace present challenges back to their roots and process them fully, often leading to breakthroughs that would take much longer in regular therapy.

If you’re wondering whether a therapy retreat is right for you, I encourage you to reach out for a consultation. I’ll be honest about whether this approach would be beneficial for your specific needs. Intensive sessions aren’t for everyone, but they can be life-changing for those who are ready for deep work.

Thank you for joining me today. If you found this episode insightful, please consider leaving a review on iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Your feedback helps others discover the show and take steps toward their own healing. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Explore Related Episode:

Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript:

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 130. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I am so excited that you are here with us today to talk about “How do I know if a therapeutic retreat is right for me?”

I started doing day-long sessions about a year and a half ago. Since having the podcast, and not being able to work from clients out of state, I have had people come visit me for multiple days and stay locally and come to the office. We’ve seen great results from that. I want to open that opportunity up to more people. To some of you who are listening, know that you can go online to my counseling website bythewellcounseling.com and book a consultation session. I’ll have you fill out some paperwork and we can talk through what makes sense for you in terms of moving forward. And if it doesn’t make sense for you to take the time to do a therapeutic retreat, or I don’t think that you’re going to get good results from it, I will be honest and tell you, that I don’t take people on for these types of experiences who I don’t think are going to have a good result.

Let’s talk about the structure of an intensive session or therapeutic retreat. Clients will come in in the beginning and we’ll do a mindfulness-type activity to settle. If they are a Christian, we will definitely invite the Holy Spirit into that process. It’s so powerful. The Holy Spirit knows exactly where we need to go, and what we need to work on, and if we trust him in that process, even if it doesn’t make sense on the surface, things always go better.

I also really want God to be speaking into people’s hearts through this process, dropping in truths, not just truths that they know in their head, but also that that can permeate deep down into their spirit. into their body, their heart and mind so that they can love God with everything that they have.

Then what we do is we set an intention. The intention a lot of times has already been set ahead of time. We’ll talk about that In the consultation, what is it that you hope to walk away from if we are quite successful here and have a great therapeutic experience? What do you hope to be different or what do you hope to be responding to differently in your life?

Depending on the state that the client comes in depends on where I go next. Some clients come in. And they’re feeling very hopeless, feeling like why is this going to work, I’ve done all these other things, how is this going to be any different, maybe I’m that person who’s the lost cause who just can’t get any better.

I think it’s important for us as therapists to respect whatever shows up in the room. So if hopelessness is there for a reason, if it’s there to protect this person from trying too hard again and potentially getting hurt, then I can empathetically respond to that. And we can usually move from a state of feeling hopeless to at least feeling maybe open or curious as part of the process.

Other clients come in highly anxious because they know they are going to be working on things that they’ve been avoiding. We may have to take a little bit more time to calm their nervous system a bit before we can engage in the activities, and that’s okay. Other clients come in feeling okay, comfortable with the process, ready to go, ready to get engaged and get started. But wherever a person is at on that initial first day is fine. We just work with whatever is in the therapy room, knowing that things are going to shift and change as we go through the process.

Somewhere in that first or second hour, we’re developing a resource if this hasn’t been created previously. The resource is a healthy, adult part of self that can help wounded child parts heal, It’s very significant and powerful for trauma work to get that on board. It helps our brain be able to make shifts to know that you’re an adult now, that things are different. A lot is different than when you were a kid in terms of there being more things in your control.

lessening a sense of powerlessness, while at the same time, knowing when we were children, we relied so much on adult caregivers to meet our needs. Now that we are adults, we can start to learn to meet some of those needs ourselves. And also, we can open ourselves up to allow God to pour in and meet those needs for us.

We have a total of three hours before lunch, so depending on how time flows, what comes up in the beginning? We then are moving before lunch into a treatment process where we’re looking at what memories do we need to target with EMDR. Two pathways that people can go down here. One is they bring in the memories that they know are bothering them.

But another pathway that I often see is people know, okay, for example, I can’t seem to stand up for myself, I can’t seem to set boundaries, or I can’t seem to have any confidence in my life, I want to be able to do things, but I don’t feel good about myself, I feel worthless. And they’ll tell me, I’m not sure where this comes from.

I know that I’ve had some things happen maybe in my childhood, nothing super significant, nothing that seems major, but there’s just something there that I can’t seem to shake and I’m not sure where it comes from. We will take that presenting issue, looking at how it impacts that person in their relationships, in their work, in their social settings, in at home, at school, and we’ll trace that backwards. So there’s a treatment plan process that I do with people. We will go back and we are just allowing that, getting them into that vein of the nervous system through some questioning, allowing them to sit with what’s happening in their body, whatever’s coming up.

If we’re following that nervous system, then God will show us those next places that the person needs to go or bring those memories to mind that come up related to the present issue. It’s important to note that I never dig up stuff from the past arbitrarily. I’m specifically looking for things that are tied to the present issue that are keeping the person stuck in the present right now.

We’re not going on a fishing expedition to see whatever painful stuff we can dig up. No, what we’re doing is saying what’s here right now and what space in the past is stuck and is keeping you from being able to do the thing that you want to do in the present. This is helpful whether people have had a lot of trauma or a little trauma.

If you’ve had a lot of trauma, you may not know what specific things you need to target that are connected to this present issue. You know that targeting everything is going to feel like too much, and we don’t want to do that. We’re not trying to overwhelm your system here. So we have three hours in the morning.

We take an hour’s lunch break in the middle of the day, usually around noon. When we come back at one, we are usually ready to start getting into that trauma processing with EMDR. I found a couple of things that move EMDR along a little bit faster for my client. One of those things is EMDR 2. 0 involves working memory taxation, bringing that memory vividly into the space of the working memory, trying to hold it there while at the same time being distracted by the therapist giving you different tasks to do. It allows your brain to chew that memory up differently and reduce distress a lot quicker.

The other thing that helps people move along in the EMDR process and not get stuck or start looping has been integrating parts work. This allows people to process very painful things with much less distress. Both of these, the EMDR 2.0 and the parts work. It used to be that I would find people were very overwhelmed emotionally when they would tap into these memories. Since I’ve been using EMDR 2. 0 and parts work, people have been able to process without having the intense emotional re-experiencing. This is probably really good news if some of you have done EMDR in the past and you know how challenging it can be and how emotionally draining it can be, but it doesn’t have to be. I’m coming from a space now of doing EMDR for over 10 years, going through the entire process to become the highest level of training you can receive, which is an EMDR consultant.

I have worked my way around EMDR forwards and backwards. I’ve had people tell me, I haven’t been able to do EMDR in the past with a previous therapist or it didn’t do anything for me. They’ve still been able to have good results. There are some times when we go a little bit heavier on parts work because we need to focus on messaging that someone received and we may process through some negative messaging received from caregivers, but we can still add a mode of bilateral stimulation to that.

There are so many directions that you can go in a day-long session when you have the time. For example, with people dealing with phobias, we can look at processing that with something called a future template, similar to imaginal exposure. You’re imagining how you would like to respond to that situation in the future and processing and working through the body sensations that come up related to that feared experience. Some things are easier to expose yourself to in an imaginal sense versus in a real-life context. For example, if someone is afraid to get in an MRI machine, what we can do is have them imagine that process.

I could also play sounds that the MRI is going to sound like. We can look up lots of things on YouTube, and look at pictures. Whatever is appropriate for the person or whatever they’re feeling comfortable with, we can go down some different directions in regard to phobias specifically. We can process obsessions in terms of triggers to obsessions, that feared worst-case scenario outcome, having people sit with what if that did happen and process through the body sensations, emotions related to that, the feared scenarios.

We can have you practice saying things that you want to say out loud, looking at tone of voice, and assertive communication. These obviously are just a couple of examples, but I hope it’s giving you an idea of how much flexibility you have and how many different directions we can go down with those longer time periods and timeframes.

I often find multiple days are helpful for people who have more than one diagnosis. Examples of if they would identify that they have significant past trauma, and PTSD-like symptoms, while also having OCD. I would consider these clients to be some of my favorite to work with, really clearing through the trauma and then helping them with the skills to be able to manage the OCD in the present.

I have found that trauma certainly exacerbates OCD symptoms. Oftentimes, until we clear up that trauma from the past, we don’t know how much that is going to help clear up the OCD or bring it down to a level that is more manageable, where the person can live with it in their day to day life and feel confident in being able to have the skills to manage the obsessions when they come up.

I have named some of them, but let’s talk about what issues are good to cover in an intensive. I’ve helped people with a variety of things. Recent event trauma, traumatic grief and loss, so that if you work through the trauma, then the grief process will be able to move a little bit easier, a little more smoothly. We are not trying to take away anyone’s grief or sadness. We’re just trying to remove the traumatic pieces that keep them from going through that grief process or keeping them stuck.

Helping people with phobias, whether that’s flying, doctors, dentists, or anything medical procedure. I can identify and relate because I’ve had negative interactions with medical professionals. Hospitalizations as a child impacted me later in life when I faced other medical issues or uncertainties. Lack of confidence is commonly something that people seek more intensive or therapeutic retreat help for because it’s such a complex issue. And that confidence can interfere with someone being able to date.

It could be interfering with them getting a job promotion or interfering with their ability to set boundaries. It could be that you have an unhealthy family member who keeps roping you into some of the same unhealthy patterns, and you’re constantly getting triggered by that person while at the same time wanting to maintain a relationship with them.

We work through, what that looks like to heal from the past hurt from this relationship. What does it look like to move forward and have a healthier relationship with someone? You can only control that health from your end. You can’t control the entire relationship’s health. But I’ve seen people be more at peace in stepping back from relationships a little bit or engaging in a different way than they have before.

I find panic attacks to be something that we can target with EMDR processing. The first panic attack, the worst panic attack, how you’d like to be able to go out and not have the fear of having another panic attack. If you have any other issues going on that you think might be appropriate for a therapeutic intensive, certainly hit me up on the contact page.

Let me know what your thoughts are, and a little bit of what you’re trying to work through, and we can certainly always schedule a consultation and talk that through to see if this modality is right for you. Who is not appropriate for a therapeutic intensive if you’re in active addiction? Right now, you’re probably going to need to seek help of some substance abuse treatment.

Obviously, there may be other mental health concerns going on. You may want to find a co-occurring treatment facility where they can treat the substance abuse and the mental health. Eating disorders can be super challenging and you may need some more intensive treatment. If you’re at a level where you need to seek residential treatment, a therapeutic retreat or intensive may not be right for you. That’s something to keep in mind.

Those I’ve found that do the best with this type of therapeutic setting have a level of openness towards the healing process. They believe that it’s possible. They’ve tried other things in the past. They have a certain baseline level of self-awareness. I don’t take people on for these types of experiences that don’t have a connection to their emotions, that don’t have a connection to their body that aren’t sure how to give feedback or express what they’re thinking or feeling. Those types of individuals need a lot more baseline work of mindfulness, of tuning into their own experience, of developing a little bit more self-awareness. And then they might be ready at a later point for a more therapeutic retreat-intensive type setting.

I want to talk to you about other considerations you may have when thinking about this type of therapy. We have three valuable resources. Time, Money and mental energy and depending on how you want to split those resources up in terms of receiving therapy That’s going to help guide your process. Do you have the time to go to weekly or every other week of therapy?

There have been times in my life when I was looking for A grief support group. I was looking at being involved in something like that and I kept running into not being able to find something that was what I was looking for or that would fit my schedule appropriately. I had so much going on with having a very young child at that point in time because I couldn’t find something that fit, and I knew I really did need some type of more grief and loss work to happen, I chose to go to a day-long grief retreat myself. Let me tell you, it was absolutely incredible. I talked about it in a previous episode in terms of my grief and loss journey.

I was seeing a therapist regularly, but something still felt a little bit like it was missing. I had such a great awareness through the process of the activities at this grief retreat that I thought I came there for one purpose, and then by the time I left, I realized that there was something else inside that I needed to grieve that I hadn’t yet. That was what I ended up working on. It was an incredible process that I hadn’t recognized or realized through going to therapy on a regular basis.

In today’s society, many people are busy. I talk to people who are literally running seven days a week and they feel like they cannot add one more thing to their schedule, yet they know they have things they need to work on. Maybe they’ve tried to go to weekly therapy and they end up canceling because the kid gets sick or because work then interferes and says, you have to be over here. They just can’t seem to get that consistent rhythm or momentum of weekly therapy so you have to take time into consideration. You also may have something to work through that has a time deadline.

For example, if you’re pregnant and you’re trying to recover from your first traumatic birth, you’re time-limited on how long you have to receive therapy before you give birth again if you’re already pregnant. Maybe you tell your spouse, yes, we’re finally going to take that trip that we’ve always wanted to take for our 10th anniversary across the ocean, but you’re afraid to fly. Now you know you’ve been avoiding dealing with it, but hey, I need to work on my flight anxiety before I get on the plane. We talked about time as one of our resources.

Now let’s talk about mental energy. Usually, when I tell friends or family that I do day-long sessions with people, the initial response is, “Whoa! That’s a lot of therapy.” That sounds like a lot. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that thing on social media that’s like, Choose your heart. Staying married is hard. Divorce is hard. Choose your hard. This is one of those, I would say, choose your hard because I know people that come into weekly therapy that say, Man, it’s hard to unpack this stuff and pack it back up and then go be with my family or it’s hard to unpack something and then feeling like I’m just starting to get hit the emotional nerve or I’m just starting to get going on the processing then the 50 minutes are up, and unfortunately, your brain is going to continue to chew on things. That’s just what it does. It’s trying to find resolution.

When you have a longer therapy session, you’re giving your brain the gift of time. Yes, six hours of therapy in a day can be a lot. I’m not going to lie to you or sugarcoat that. You may want to take a nice, long, happy nap afterwards. However, living with pain day after day is also exhausting. Let’s talk for a moment about money.

On the surface, a therapeutic retreat is more expensive. However, when you remember that we’re actually saving time by condensing the process, I believe that people save money in the long term. I remember one client that I did a one-day session with, and She had so many memories that she just needed to process through and unpack that was holding her back in her day-to-day life, things that she couldn’t get off her mind.

It was a very rare sort of intensive in a lot of ways because the targets she essentially picked and knew what things were bothering her. A lot of times we have to go back and do a process and dig for those, but she knew what she needed to process. I remember we just went through the day and I was like, okay, what’s next? She would process it and go to the next memory. Okay, what’s next? At the end of that session, I told her this would have taken you a year in therapy to get through all of these memories. I honestly believe that. But her brain was just so ready and her nervous system, she wanted that healing. She was open to it and we just were able to go through it so that she didn’t have to keep carrying around the pain of those memories over and over and over again.

I can tell you from the therapist’s perspective, I enjoy the longer sessions because we start to see a thread running through very quickly. In all of these different memories, you experienced this, and that is the piece that has followed you around for your whole life. Today is the day that God wants to break that chain for you. Today is the day that you can say, I don’t have to live. Under that lie anymore, I don’t have to live with that limiting belief. It stops today. There is not anything else that lights me on fire more than that, guys. It’s so incredible to see the work that God has done in people’s lives over these longer sessions.

I know for some of you, this episode really landed and you resonated with what I was saying. If that’s you, I just really encourage you to reach out on bythewellcounseling.com and click on the contact form. I would love to get in touch with you. Or you can go on there and schedule a consultation and we’ll talk more about if this is right for you.

Do you want to be the first to know what’s happening on the podcast? podcast. Join our email list at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. We have got some free downloads on there, and you have to actually click the download from your email to sign up for the list. So make sure you take that one extra step.

Thanks so much for listening and I’ll be back next week.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed Professional Counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

128. How to Develop a 3 Song Playlist That Will Calm an Anxiety Attack

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie revisits insights from a previous conversation with music therapist Tim Ringgold and shares practical tips for crafting a calming playlist to ease anxiety.

Episode Highlights:

  • How to select songs for a calming playlist based on mood and tempo.
  • The importance of engaging actively with music to ground yourself in the present moment.
  • Tips for incorporating uplifting praise and worship music into your mental health practices.
  • Practical techniques for using music actively during anxiety attacks.
  • Insights on building a personalized “Battle Playlist” to combat mental and spiritual challenges.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Hope for Anxiety and OCD, I discuss how to create a three-song playlist designed to help calm an anxiety attack. This idea originated from my conversation with music therapist Tim Ringgold in episode six. We revisit his insights on selecting the right songs and understanding the power of music in managing anxiety.

The key to building an effective playlist lies in understanding the role of tempo and rhythm in regulating your emotions. Tim explains that when dealing with anxiety, it’s essential to start with a song that matches your current state—usually something more up-tempo—then gradually transition to slower, calmer music. This approach, known as the ISO principle, helps to guide your body from a heightened state of anxiety back to a more relaxed one.

However, it’s not just about listening passively. Engaging with the music physically—whether by tapping along with the beat, humming, or singing—can bring you back to the present moment, making the music more effective in reducing anxiety. This active engagement is crucial, as simply listening to music can sometimes trigger past memories or future worries, pulling you out of the present.

I also touch on the spiritual aspect of music, emphasizing the power of praise and worship in overcoming difficult emotions. Incorporating songs that help you focus on God’s promises can be a powerful tool in managing both mental and spiritual health.

Whether you’re dealing with anxiety, OCD, or both, having a tailored playlist can be a valuable addition to your mental health toolkit. I encourage you to start building your own three-song playlist and even consider adding praise and worship music to uplift your spirit during challenging times.

For more information on this topic and other mental health resources, visit carriebock.com

Explore related episodes:

6. The Science Behind Engaging with Music for Anxiety Relief with Tim Ringgold

Transcript:

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 128. Today on the show, we’re talking about how to develop a three-song playlist that will calm an anxiety attack. This nugget is way back from episode six when we interviewed a music therapist and speaker, Tim Ringgold.

Before we hop into today’s episode, I want to let you know that the Christian Faith and OCD Summer Learning Series is going great. It’s off to a good start, and I’m starting to think about what’s next for the fall. I am loving inference-based cognitive behavioral therapy so much. Um, just breathing it in and allowing it to sink in, teaching it to my clients. It’s been amazing just to see people’s awareness and how their awareness has been able to shift their behavior.

It’s a very present, mindful type therapy. I want to know if you are interested in hearing more about it. If you’d be interested. So, if you’re interested in participating in a group this fall, either to interact with others, like a support group type where you’re learning about ICBT and then talking with others about implementing that in your life, or if you like the learning content.

I’m going to have a survey out that’s being sent out to my email list over the next few weeks, and you’re welcome to hop on the email list, fill out that survey, or you can contact us through hopeforanxietyandocd.com. We’d love to send that survey over to you as well. Stay tuned and be on the lookout for some potential group options this fall.

Now let’s hop right into the episode. We are going to start by looking at what types of music you might want for your three song playlist. Tim will share how to order them and then why it’s important to do more than just press play.

Carrie: Do you encourage people to listen to certain types of music for when they’re anxious or when they’re depressed?

Tim: When it comes to the material that’s in the music, here’s what we know from research. Typically, if you are struggling with depression or anger, Particularly, what’s going to happen is the music you reach for might do one of three things. Typically, people will reach for music that matches their mood.

That’s normal. We want to validate where we are intuitively. So angry people, if they listen to angry music, it may do one of three things. It may reduce the anger. because they now have this resonance with something they feel validated. It’s cathartic. That actually reduces the anger. Sometimes it doesn’t do anything to the anger.

It has no effect at all. They just engage in the music and they feel as angry as they did beforehand. Sometimes it actually exacerbates the feelings of anger. And I would submit that anger and anxiety are more related than anxiety and depression because I feel like anger and anxiety are hyper-regulated, hyperactive states, whereas depression is a hypo active state.

There’s this correlation, but not identical, but correlated. So if you’re in a hyperregulated, hyperactive state, There’s the chance that you could exacerbate that, and we’ve read from research with teens where, same with depression, they listen to sad music when they’re depressed. The music doesn’t make them sad.

They were sad, and they reached for the music that matched their sadness. The music either makes them feel better, doesn’t change the sadness, or actually exacerbates it, makes it worse. It’s really important for people to notice what’s happening in their body as they’re listening to the music they reach for because there’s no stamp of this than that when it comes to music.

Carrie: Jumping in here to add that we are instructed in Philippians 4. 8 to focus on whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is ever is admirable if anything is excellent or praiseworthy to think about such things. We want to make sure that when you pick songs for your playlist, that they pass the Philippians 4 8 test.

Tim: There’s a couple of things. One is with anxiety, a lot of times your focus is no longer in the present. You’re kind of wrapped up. It’s a kind of a disembodied experience as a trigger to an embodied sense of panic. But the disembodied part is you’re up in your head, perseverating over a future that you’re convinced is going to happen.

Carrie: Since anxiety and OCD take you out of the present moment, like Tim is talking about, this is why learning to be in the moment is so helpful. Guess what? I have a course where you can learn mindfulness practices as a Christian. Check it out on my website under courses. You can get 10 percent off by using the code LISTENER.

Now, Tim is going to tell us about finding the right tempo for our song selection.

Tim: When it comes to music listening, music listening is very nuanced, and it’s very complex. And that’s why I try to encourage people, music making. Because the music making, it’s a motor cortex embodied physical experience happening in the present moment.

It is not really subject to these nuances of context. It’s just, here’s the beat. The beat’s happening now. Oh, the beat’s getting faster. Oh, I got to keep up with the beat right now. There’s no emotional discussion about the beat. There’s the beat. Okay, I’m going to tap along with the beat. If you’re feeling elevated and you want to slow your heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rhythm down, the principle we use is called the ISO principle and the law of rhythmic entrainment.

So you start with music that’s up tempo to match how you’re feeling, and then you pick music that gradually slows down. Your playlist would be like the first song is the fastest of the three. The second song is a little bit slower in tempo, and the third song’s a little bit slower in tempo. than that, but not shocking.

Carrie: Just gradually going down.

Tim: If you’ve ever been to any kind of cardio class or DJ, if you really pay attention, the music they pick usually starts slow during the warmup. And then it picks up, but gradually, and then it peaks. And then at the end, during the cool down, the tempo, the speed of the music slows down.

The intensity of the music slows a little bit because we’re warming down. We’re bringing it down at the end. So that kind of tempo arc or speed arc, if you will, that’s really what your body responds to more than anything. It’s going to respond to that.

Carrie: Okay, hopefully you’re starting to get some ideas on what songs you want on your playlist. Maybe you have an idea of a fast song or a slower song. In this next section, Tim explains why it’s important to do more than just listen to music if it’s going to help you during an anxiety attack.

Tim: If I’ve got my phone and I’ve got my earbuds in and I put on a playlist of music that inspires me that I’ve already put in there for just such an occasion.

What I want to do is I want to either tap along on my body with the beat, with the music. I want to hum along with the melody. I want to actually audio, which is like when you sing in your head, but not out loud. You can sing along with a song in your head and you’re not actually using your mouth, but your brain is doing all of the calisthenics to produce the pitch and the tempo and the words in your head.

What happens is you just activate your vocal cord. If you want to release that out into the environment, you can just sing along in your head. You can sing along out loud. even better, but any way that you can activate your body to match the music, then your body is involved. That’s a huge component for people with anxiety is because getting back into your body brings you back into the present moment because the only place your body is is in the present moment.

The challenge with remembering that is you got to remember it, but if you just turn on music and you try to play along with the beat or tap along with the beat, you’re just trying to keep the beat. And by virtue of trying to keep the beat, now you’re back in your body and you’re back in the present moment because music’s time based.

When we play music in order to keep the beat, we have to be present. The challenge with listening to music is listening to music can become a very disembodied experience.

Carrie: Passive versus active.

Tim: Yes, it engages your imagination and your memory. So you can be listening to a song and you can float away. You can, the song can take you to where the song is with a disembodied experience. When you just listen to the song, you’ve had this experience where you listen to a song that you have heard before and you have a memory associated with that song. You’re no longer in the present moment. You are back wherever that was.

It could be good, could be bad. Same thing can happen in the future. You can hear a song and it can trigger your thoughts and your feelings and your emotions about the future because there’s nothing holding you. The song itself isn’t holding you in the present moment unless you try to engage with it, with your body.

Carrie: I know I can definitely relate to what Tim was just saying right there, there are certain songs that since my parents funeral that were sung at the funeral that I really have a hard time listening to at this time and trigger a lot of sadness from me. And there are other times that songs come up that remind me of happy times or sad times and it can be challenging to navigate through those. So be careful what memories you may have attached to some of your music. I hope this episode has helped you put one more tool in your toolbox when it comes to dealing with anxiety or OCD. Typically, we don’t recommend people with OCD use relaxation type strategies when dealing with anxiety. anxiety from OCD specifically.

However, I also know that many of my clients with OCD also have anxiety or panic attacks from time to time. We could all use with a little more nervous system regulation. I want to talk with you for just a moment about the power of utilizing praise and worship music for your mental and spiritual health.

Psalms 34 1, I will bless the Lord at all times. His praise shall continually be in my mouth. If you know much about the life of David, he went through a lot. He praised God in the good times and in the bad times. When Saul was out to kill him, when he mourned the loss of his best friend Jonathan, he was praising God.

Praise is powerful because it puts God over our circumstances, and over our feelings. I know I’ve talked about this before on the show, but I’ve been through some tough bouts of depression in my life where I did not think that I could get out of bed and face the day and I would play music in the morning to get me up. Beautiful Day by Jamie Grace was one of those. I now have a playlist that I’ve saved on YouTube called The Battle Playlist, and these are the songs that I sing along to if I get into a spiritual or mental funk. Raise a Hallelujah, Waymaker, and Jirah are just a few of those songs that are on there. I just pray that you get a battle playlist together and that the this episode helps you to start doing that.

I’ll be back here with you next week for another episode.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views The use of myself or By the Well Counseling our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by god’s great love for you

125. Help For When You Can’t Stop Googling Everything! with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie talks about the downsides of Googling too much, especially for those with OCD and anxiety. She shares how seeking reassurance online can actually make things worse and offers tips for resisting the urge to Google.

Episode Highlights:

  • The risks of excessive Googling, particularly for those with OCD and anxiety.
  • How seeking reassurance online can escalate anxiety and spiritual confusion.
  • The importance of accepting uncertainty as a part of finding peace.
  • Recognizing the urge to Google and making intentional choices to step back.
  • Practical strategies for resisting the urge to Google and maintaining mental well-being.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Episode 125 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD! I’m Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor based in Tennessee, and I’m thrilled to have you with me today. If you find yourself caught in the habit of excessive Googling, you’re not alone. Many people with OCD struggle with this same issue, and in today’s episode, we’re diving deep into why this habit can be harmful and how you can start to break free from it.

Are you constantly Googling for reassurance? Perhaps you spend hours reading articles, watching videos, or searching for answers online. While it’s okay to research things in moderation, excessive Googling often exacerbates anxiety and leads to confusion rather than clarity.

We’ll address the cycle of reassurance-seeking that many people experience. Just like asking others for validation in relationships or at work, Googling is a way of self-reassuring. But instead of finding peace, you might end up trapped in a maze of conflicting opinions, especially in spiritual matters.

It’s crucial to recognize the urge to Google as a potential sign of OCD. When you feel a strong, anxious need to find an answer immediately, it’s often a sign that OCD is driving your behavior.

Remember, not everything needs an immediate solution. It’s rare that Googling will provide you with the certainty you’re seeking. Often, the answers to your questions are not readily available online, and learning to sit with uncertainty can be an important step in your healing journey.

Tune in to discover how to manage your Googling habits, set healthy boundaries, and find peace without relying on endless searches.

Explore related episode:

131. Relationship Obsessions Combined with Scrupulosity: Pierre’s Story

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 125. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a  licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. 

I’m glad that you’re here. I just want to remind everybody, we have some exciting news, we have some revamping of the podcast that is going to be happening this summer and hopefully, we will have some new artwork, a new website, and a new name. For more information about that, make sure to hop on our email list so that you can be an insider and be the first to know. It is hopeforanxietyandocd.com/free. We’ll get you any of those free resources and to be able to be put on our email list.

This episode is for some of you that really struggle with your relationship with Googling. Maybe you are Googling what you feel like is everything or you’re spending hours and hours reading articles, hours and hours researching things on YouTube. If you haven’t figured this out, this is not incredibly healthy for you or your mental health. It’s okay to research things in moderation, it’s okay to look into things. But there is a point where it becomes unhealthy and creates more and more anxiety. Googling is a common OCD obsession that I see in clients that I work with, and when I first started working with OCD, It was one of the red flags of maybe this person needs some more assessment if they are Googling all of the time.

Maybe we need to start assessing them for OCD. Googling is a way that people seek reassurance. You may have seen, or heard of reassurance seeking in OCD, where you’re asking someone in a relationship, “Hey, are we okay right now? You’re asking your boss, am I doing everything the way you want me to? You’re asking doctors like, am I going to be okay? Are you sure that I’m going to be all right? Googling is a way we have done to self-reassure, to find out from some article, or expert video that everything is going to be all right, or we’re finding for or against what we think is okay. 

Now we want to talk about how this can send you down a bunch of different rabbit holes where you see a bunch of different people’s opinions. It can cause you, especially in the spiritual realm from what I see with clients is it can cause you to become more and more spiritually confused, like, “Okay, well, this person about this scripture says this, and this person over here says that. You can get stuck on who is right, and who’s wrong.

If this person is saying this, does that mean I need to be doing that? If that person is saying I should stay away from seeing movies that are rated PG-13, does that mean that I’m a bad Christian if I go see this movie over here, the latest film? If this person over here says I should only listen to Christian music, does that mean I’m a bad Christian if I listen to secular music? What it does, the reality is, especially spiritually. It leaves you confused and causes you more disconnect from your actual relationship with God. Your relationship with God needs to, there’s a balance here. I’m not going to say it’s based a hundred percent. on just you and God because I do believe based on the scriptures that Christian community is an important part of our walk, that we can lovingly correct each other when we’re outside of bounds.

We need to just be very guarded and cautious about the people that we allow to speak into our lives. We need to make sure that they are aligned with the Word of God and our beliefs and understandings about the character of God. We don’t want to go too far off the rails and be following someone that is using obscure scriptures to make a major life change point.

Certain people may be convicted about some things. that you are not convicted about, and that is okay. Back to Googling and spending lots of time on YouTube, you need to be careful about that urge, so it starts with probably some type of obsession, and then there’s an urge to get on Google. There’s an urge that like, I need to know, I need to have this answer, I need to have this settled. What OCD is telling you is that you need to know and have that answer settled right now. That’s what you need to be cautious about. It’s not bad to know information or to try to research, but when there’s a strong, anxious, emotional urge that says you have to know it right now, go on and Google this. That’s probably OCD telling you or urging you to do those things. Then you can sit back and you have a crossroads, a choice at that point. Do I pick up my phone? Because now it’s so easy for us, we don’t even have to go to a computer anymore. We just pick up our phone. We can voice search in there.

We just say, “Hey, look up this for me.” We can ask it all kinds of questions. We don’t even have to touch our phones. I mean, people have Alexa in their home or they can say, “Hey, Alexa, look this up for me.” It’s so so easy for us. 

Be intentional. Maybe you need to leave your phone when you feel that urge, leave your phone in another part of the house and literally walk away from it or walk away from your computer. Make intentional decisions not to get on those things when you’re trying to go to sleep because that is going to activate your brain in a way where you’re trying to problem solve and figure everything out right now Here’s the truth that we can sit with it is very very rare that we need to have a solution Right now that we would need to Google Maybe there is a solution right now like in an emergency situation where We might need to call 911.

We might need to tell someone to stop doing something. We might need to walk away from a situation. None of those involve googling. A lot of times the things that you’re searching for are things that are hard to know right now. In this present moment, or you’re trying to find certainty about a specific situation that you’re dealing with, instead of sitting with, maybe the answers to your specific situation are not on the internet.

You’re trying to find other people who have been through similar experiences. I have done my fair share of Googling, especially when it comes to medical experiences. I did a lot of Googling when I was pregnant with my daughter. I had some various complications. I wanted to know, was she going to be okay? Was I going to be okay? Ultimately, that Googling gave me some information, but it really didn’t give me certainty. 

That’s what you’re wanting to know is, can Googling actually give you certainty? No, it can’t. It can give you more information, but can it tell you what’s gonna happen 100 percent of the time? No. As you’re learning through this process of dealing with OCD, part of that is learning to know, Hey, I don’t have 100 percent certainty. What’s going to happen in my experience? I didn’t know what it was going to be like to give birth to my daughter. Even though that was my first and only child, other people have had vastly different birth experiences, even who have had multiple children.

Just because you’ve had a child before, that doesn’t mean it’s going to go exactly the same as it did the last time. Googling about it can give you some broad strokes, some general ideas, but it’s not going to tell you the specifics of your situation. Keeping that in mind, you’re wanting to know, what is it that I actually need, and can Google actually provide that? Most of the time, the answer is a no. 

You may, if you do need some legitimate information, but you are struggling because you know that you’re going to spend two hours on it, It may be something where you ask someone else to get you, like, one or two articles to read that are informative, that is from a healthy, good source, not just something that someone obscurely wrote that’s about two pages down the search engine. A reputable source where you can gain that information without feeling overwhelmed by all of the information that is out there. Typically, we do not have to consume as much information as we believe that we need to consume. You do not have to look at all different sides or angles or videos. You can glean some information from one or two things and then allow that to be the information gathering and moving on.

If you were going to Google, you would want to examine for yourself, “What is it that I am needing to know?” That’s one thing. “What am I actually needing to know? What am I hoping to gain from this? If I’m really Googling just to reassure myself, Or just to get some sense of, like, obscure certainty that’s out there.” Then you need to put the phone down, put the mouse down, walk away from the computer or phone, and say, okay, I’m going be okay even if I don’t get the certainty right now. I have to sit with some of the unknowns that are in my present experience about the future. Typically, it’s almost like we’re trying to get Google to help us figure out the future and be able to have some false sense of control. I think that’s what OCD is trying to tell you that you can have. You can have some false sense of control if you just get a little bit more information about this. Maybe you’ll understand it. Maybe you’ll be more confident in your decision making. Maybe you’ll know what to do.

There may be times where you gather all the information and you don’t know what the right decision is exactly. I had to make a hard decision about whether or not to be induced with my daughter and that was tough for me because I didn’t want to. Looking at all the information and then being able to say, okay, well, at some level, I have to make a decision and so many times I see people with OCD being concerned in a perfectionistic way about making quote the wrong decision or feeling like there’s only one right decision to be made in the situation.

Sometimes life is about praying and waiting for the peace of God to steer us in the right direction. And sometimes we have two okay options that are not in violation of our spiritual nature or things that, they’re not moral decisions to be made. And sometimes we just need to go with one of those, and that may be really hard for you or feel scary.

You may not feel like you have the confidence to make those decisions. That means there’s a little bit more inner work that needs to be done within yourself to be able to say, “Yes, I can make decisions. It’s okay.” That’s a thing that all adults do. Sometimes we are not sure of ourselves and sometimes there’s just a decision to be made and we have to stick our neck out and make it. Sometimes it’s okay, it works out well, sometimes it doesn’t. That’s a part of our life. 

OCD wants you to believe that somehow you can have this absolute certainty if you have an abundance of information. More information typically does not give us more certainty. It can actually lead us to more confusion, especially if we find conflicting information.

Look at your past experiences with Google and see how they have turned out. Sometimes people will tell me, “Well, I looked this thing up and it actually relieved my fear or my concern.” I found out that it’s very unlikely that this scenario would happen. If it was just something like that and then you stopped and you were able to let it go. If it’s something where there’s a lot of gray area and you’re Googling about it more than once or you’re almost looking for new information on it, Is that contributing to your mental health and saying no to OCD? It Doesn’t sound like it. I would encourage you to take some steps to be able to prevent yourself from going down that rabbit hole so often. As you do, it may feel uncomfortable at first, but you’ll notice that it gets easier and easier and easier the more that you resist that urge to Google. It truly is an urge, there is a feeling, you know. associated with it, but also you can say no to OCD and not give in to that urge to Google.

Hopefully, this helps some of you who are struggling with this area and the Googling. 

122. How Do I Deal With Uncertainty? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie delves into the challenges of facing uncertainty amidst significant life transitions. Drawing from her own experiences, she offers helpful tips for coping with uncertainty and finding peace amid the unknown.

Episode Highlights:

  • The importance of trusting in God’s plan and finding peace amidst unknown circumstances.
  • Insights into dealing with uncertainty from a faith-based perspective.
  • Ways to find comfort and strength in your personal journey through uncertain times.
  • Tips for maintaining confidence and hopefulness despite facing unknowns in life.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 122. I’m Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, specializing in trauma, anxiety, and OCD. Today, I’m diving into a topic that’s deeply personal for me right now—dealing with uncertainty. My husband and I are in a challenging transition, moving from our split-level home due to his neurological condition, spinal cerebellar ataxia (SCA). The condition impacts his balance and mobility, and we’re facing an uncertain future.

The process of selling our house and finding a new, accessible home has been overwhelming. With the real estate market in high demand, it’s been a struggle to find a suitable property that meets our needs. As we navigate this uncertainty, I’m reminded of the same principles I teach to those grappling with OCD: embracing uncertainty and trusting in God’s plan are crucial.

I lean on the comforting words of Lamentations 3:22-23, which remind me of God’s steadfast love and faithfulness. Reflecting on past instances where God’s provision has been evident strengthens my faith and helps me trust that He will guide us through this challenging time. Even though the outcome and timing are unclear, I find peace in knowing that God has a good plan for us.

I invite you to listen to the full episode for a deeper exploration of how I’m managing this period of uncertainty and the spiritual insights that have guided me.

Explore related episode:

118. How Do I know if this Thought is an OCD Obsession? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 122. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I specialize in working with people dealing with trauma, anxiety, or OCD, often a combination of those things. 

Today on the show, we’re talking about “How do I Deal with Uncertainty?”

My husband and I are going through a period of intense uncertainty in our lives right now. As I share this story, it may not be a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to us in our lives right now. We are in the process of transitioning houses from one house to another house. For those of you who’ve followed my story, my husband has a neurological condition called spinal cerebellar ataxia or SCA for short. This is a degenerative condition. He has issues with balance, walks with a cane or a walker right now, and there’s a lot of uncertainty with that diagnosis. We don’t know what the future holds for him, but we have been told that There’s a great chance that at some day or another, he will end up in a wheelchair due to this condition, which is hard to sit with that reality.

In preparation for that right now, we have been living in a house that’s a split level. It has a lot of stairs.  There are stairs to get into the house from the front porch. Once you enter the house, there are  more stairs that either go up or down. It’s not great for somebody with balance challenges. Not wheelchair friendly at all. 

We’ve been praying and processing about timing, when should we move, what do we do, the housing market, the interest rates, it’s all crazy. We’re in a high-demand area. Lots of people are moving into our area in middle Tennessee. So what do we do, God? How do we time this correctly?

We’ve been working with a realtor that we trust. He said, “Hey, you’re going to have to sell your house before you can buy another one because nobody wants to go for a home contingency right now. If your offer has a home contingency and it’s up against another offer that’s cash or doesn’t have one, then you are going to be bid out.”

We put our house on the market and it sold in record time. We got everything ready and looking nice. That was super stressful. I didn’t know I had a lot of uncertainty about showing the house. I’ve never done this before. I’ve never sold a house before. I had so many questions for all my friends. “Tell me about selling your house. Tell me about what it was like getting it ready to show in the morning. How much notice did you have?” 

I went through all these things and ended up selling your house very quickly. The only problem has been that there just has not really been a whole lot on the market in our price range that also would fit with what we are needing for my husband’s unique challenges. 

There are lots of two stories in our area. Lots of houses where the bedrooms are all upstairs and that just isn’t going to work for us. Lots of new builds that are coming that are unfortunately outside of our price range or the lots are not flat. Maybe the home is one storey, but the lot has a steep drop-off in the back because we live in Tennessee.

There are hills, there are mountains, not mountains in our areas, but lots of hills and elevation changes for sure. We’ve been going through this process, knowing we have a month and a half to two months to really find a place and get everything set up so that we can get out of our house and hopefully into what we hope to be our forever home.

It’s been a huge waiting game with a lot of questions. “How long do we wait to be in a particular area? What if nothing comes open in the market in this city that we want to live in? Maybe God wants us to live a little bit further out. We’re also a part of a church plant. What does that look like? There’s a lot of uncertainty there.

We don’t know where the church is going to end up being located, feeling the call of God to be a part of this church plant and not wanting to be too far from wherever they’re going to land and end up at the same time trying to find a place that’s not too far from our daughter’s Mother’s Day Out programs that she goes to.

A lot of questions. What if we put a bid on a house and we don’t get it? What if someone overbids? What if we don’t find a place to live by the time we have to be out of here and we end up in an apartment? I haven’t lived in an apartment in a long, long time. I don’t even know much about apartment living today, other than it seems expensive, and I have two pets, so I know that would be even more expensive to have cats in the apartment.

There’s so much uncertainty right now. I teach people, especially who are dealing with rapid thought processes, a lot of what-if questions, and overthinking. I work with a lot of people who are struggling with OCD, and one of the things that we do is we help them sit with uncertainty, so I thought I would talk with you as I’m going through this period of uncertainty in my life, and it doesn’t have a happy bow or a happy ending yet.

I’m in the middle of it, speaking to you about it, and unsure and have some lack of clarity, even spiritually, from the Lord. “Okay, God, what are you doing here?” I thought that as I’m going through this process of life uncertainty, that we’re all going to face uncertainties at some point or another, I would walk you through how I am dealing with this uncertainty.

One thing is that I have to rest and trust in the character of God and who I have experienced Him to be in my life. Number one, I know that I can rest in God’s character. Lamentations 3, 22-23 tells us that God’s mercy is new every morning. Great is his faithfulness to us. God has just shown me that time and time again, God is good, God has good plans for us, God is kind (Ephesians) and God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of his grace expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus So God expressed his kindness to us in Christ. That’s awesome That’s something that we can really rest in. 

I think it’s hard for us because we know that sometimes God calls us to hard things. Sometimes God calls us to things that might be uncomfortable for us. After living in a home for over 10 years, it would be uncomfortable for me to go live in an apartment. But if that’s where the Lord has me, if there’s some ministry that I’m supposed to be doing in that apartment, if there’s a person I’m supposed to meet needs to know the Lord, if there is some reason that God wants to plant me there until he plants me in a forever home, then I am all for it.

My life is surrender to Christ and to what he wants for me. It’s not about me anymore. I am called to take up my cross daily to follow him, and as we connect with Christ, a lot of people are afraid that God is going to ask them to do something that they completely don’t want to do. 

Here’s what happens when we abide in the Lord and our desires become God’s desires. As we pray, and as we say, this is what I would like, I know for me, I know where I would like to live, I know that I would like to have a shorter commute, I know that I would like to be close enough to get my daughter, and for that to not be a burden after she’s done with school. I would like to not feel like I’m too far from my church family right now.

These are things that I desire, but I desire the will of God more. And wherever God wants us to be, we’ve been praying for ministry opportunities. In our new community that God would plant us where he wants us to be. I just believe that the Lord is going to do that in faith and trusting him. The uncertainty is the timing.

I don’t know what timeline that’s going to be. God could have a house for us in two weeks. God could have a house for us in two months. God could have a house for us in six months. I have no idea. That’s the uncertainty, but I rest in God’s goodness. I know that I can trust him. 

Point number two of the way that I’m dealing with this uncertainty.  I can point to times in my life, I can go back and say, “I didn’t think this situation was going to work out, but it did” because of God and His intervention.

There’s a story behind a lot of places where I’ve lived. There’s a story to getting this house that I’m in that the only reason I knew about this house was because we got lost trying to get out of the neighborhood. This house that I’m living in now was not on the radar until I got lost, and God put it there and said, “Huh, maybe this house. What about this?” It ended up being my home for over 10 years and that is incredible. 

I have stories behind offices that I’ve rented my very first office. I remember calling the guy on the phone and this was just after being beaten down, just feeling like, “Lord, I’m never going to get a space because I call and either they want too much money or they’ve already rented it out, or they want me to pay for the build-out that I didn’t have money for. They are all these different roadblocks, and the Lord graciously provided this cute little office. It was not very big at all, but it was exactly where I needed to be for the two years that I rented it.

The guy we’re walking through the office, looking at it and I’m saying, “Okay, I think this is going to fit the needs that I have at this time. He kept telling me I wasn’t supposed to work today. He managed the place. He didn’t live in that area and he happened to be in the area for a completely different reason.

God brought all these things together to make that happen. When we were praying for my husband’s disability process to come through, God just wholly provided. God granted us favor. He ended up getting disability faster than some other people. We don’t tend to talk about that too much because we’re not prideful about it. We didn’t do anything. That was all God because God knew our needs. God saw that we were in a difficult place. I had a very young child at the time that we were trying to provide for and my husband had been out of work for many months at that point and he was partially taking care of her. I was trying to work and make sure that everyone had what they needed.

It was a tough time in our life and I sent in a bunch of paperwork, literally just prayed over it and said, “God, please give us favor with these people. Please let them know that my husband is truly disabled and that we do need this disability to come through to pay for our bills at this time.” 

God was so faithful. We were just incredibly blessed by that experience. There’s just been time after time after time where God’s provided something that I’ve needed. God’s not going to let me be homeless in this situation. I know that there’s going to be some kind of roof over my head. I don’t know if I’m going to be in a temporary situation for a little while or if we’re going to have a smooth transition.

We have no idea right now, but I just know that God’s in it. Whatever uncertainty you’re facing today, just know that God is right there with you. God will never leave you and never forsake you, and that it’s okay if you don’t know something right now. God’s word is a lamp to our feet. And a light to our path is what we’re told. God doesn’t give us the whole picture. Oftentimes, he only gives us the next step. And sometimes we have to wrestle with him in that process of decision making to know where do we go from here? God, what do we do? I’m trusting and resting in the character of God. I’m believing in what he’s done in the past for my family.

This is why, oftentimes, we forget, as human beings, what God has done in the past. You will see in the Old Testament, they had festivals to remember, things like Passover. Passover was to help them remember that God led them out of Egypt. God led them out of slavery and when angel of death came through and the firstborn sons died, yours didn’t because you had the blood of the lamb on your door.

It was a complete picture of Jesus. We are covered by the lamb of God. If you are a believer, the Israelites had festivals and times of celebration to remember those things that God did. I feel like in common American society, we don’t celebrate or sit and think and remember what God has really done for us.

Maybe you haven’t been a Christian in a long time, or you don’t have as many stories that maybe you can point to in your own personal life, but you can always point to God showing his kindness in Christ Jesus that we were saved while we were still sinners. We were hopeless, we were far from God, we were lost, and God came and sent Jesus to us to be the substitutionary sacrifice.

That in itself is enough If God never did anything else for us, God gave us Jesus, God gave us his presence, God has gifted us heaven when we die, and man, that ought to just be celebrated, make you excited and just full of joy. Whatever is weighing you down today, whatever you’re uncertain about, just know that you can sit with that in the Lord, that you don’t have to run from the uncertainty.

It’s a part of all of our lives at different points. There’s going to be times where you may question who God is. I know I’ve had those times in my own life and that we have to cling to faith and believe what we know to be true when we’re in a good place. I hope this information has been helpful to you.

You can follow along on my journey. I send out little emails every week about things that are happening with our podcast, things that are happening with me, what God’s teaching me. You can get on our email list by going to hopeforanxietyandocd.com/free. We’ve got some amazing resources on there: 100 tips for managing anxiety, Things that Christians with OCD Should Know. If any of those appeal to you, you can get those downloads in your email box, and then you will be on our email list. Subscribe and follow us. 

Thanks so much. Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

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120. Are You Overly Responsible for Others’ Choices? 3 Ways to Know. with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 120. Are You Overly Responsible for Others’ Choices? 3 Ways to Know. with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

In this episode, Carrie explores feeling overly responsible for others’ feelings and actions. She explains how this can cause stress and shares some helpful ways to ease that burden for greater peace and acceptance.

Episode Highlights:

  • The signs of being overly responsible for others’ behavior and emotions.
  • How trying to control others can lead to internal stress and anxiety.
  • Why taking responsibility for others’ emotional experiences can be detrimental to your well-being.
  • Strategies for developing distress tolerance and finding peace amidst challenging relationships.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 120 of Christian Faith and OCD! I’m Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor based in Tennessee. If you’re outside Tennessee and need help connecting with anxiety or OCD resources in your area, I’m here to assist.

Today, we’re exploring the anxiety that comes from feeling overly responsible for other people’s emotions and behaviors. You might be overstepping if you’re trying to control or prevent someone’s actions, especially in relationships marked by codependency or addiction. Remember, the ultimate responsibility for their behavior lies with them.

Another sign is taking on others’ emotional experiences. If you avoid speaking your truth or setting boundaries out of fear of upsetting someone, you’re likely taking on too much. It’s important to communicate with kindness while allowing others to handle their own reactions.

Lastly, if you constantly try to change someone’s behavior or convince them to do something differently, it’s a sign of excessive responsibility. Accepting what you cannot control and focusing on your own well-being can help alleviate this stress. For support, check out my mindfulness course to develop distress tolerance.

Feel free to share your thoughts through our contact form at carriebock.com. Thank you for joining me, and may you find comfort in God’s great love for you.

Explore related episode:

64. How We Unintentionally Increase Our Own Suffering with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 120. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I also provide consultations to those outside of the state of Tennessee who are looking for finding and getting connected with specific resources for anxiety or OCD in their area, or what might be the next step that would be helpful for them.

Today on the show, we’re talking about being responsible or feeling this sense of responsibility for other people’s feelings and behaviors. Even though you’re not responsible for others in that way, that may be new news to you. It creates a lot of anxiety when we strive to try to control other people or try to manage their behavior that can cause us a lot of internal stress. I want you to have peace, enjoy, and be relieved for some of that. 

We’re going to talk about three ways that you know that you’re overly responsible for someone else. 

Number one, you find yourself trying to prevent certain behaviors in that other person. This happens a lot in terms of codependency with people who have addiction.

Let’s say, for example, you’re trying to reduce the addict’s stress so that they won’t use. You go around, you clean up the house. Maybe even do things like throw away the alcohol, put out the pamphlets or the information on the local AA meetings. There are all these little things that you’re doing to try to influence or control that person’s behavior, trying to make sure that there isn’t conflict so that they don’t get upset.

This also happens frequently if you’re connected with someone that’s angry, and you may know certain things that trigger that anger, certain things that are a tipping point, and so you hold back. On saying things that may need to be said, you hold back on setting boundaries because you don’t want to upset that other person and you don’t want to have that anger unleashed on you.

Here’s the problem: People are unpredictable human beings. So, even though we may tiptoe around the attic in hopes that they won’t use or try to create the perfect scenario for their sobriety, ultimately, like, they have to be the ones to take that responsibility on to be able to surrender to God, surrender to, I’m powerless over this addiction.

They have to take that responsibility in order to move forward. You can’t make them or take that responsibility on for them. People who have difficulty with anger or fly off the handle, as you know, you can tiptoe around them, but there’s still going to be something that sets them off. It’s unexpected, something that’s completely outside of your control, like people who are just stressed about work, they’re mad, and they come home and unleash on other people.

You cannot prevent that. That person has to recognize their own issues, the other things that are leading to their anger. They are responsible for managing their stress. You’re not responsible for managing their stress. We take that step back and say, “I cannot change this other person.” That is a hard acknowledgement.

It’s an important acknowledgment for you to have. It may bring up a lot of sadness that you’re avoiding dealing with. It may bring up other emotions that are hard to sit with, feelings of powerlessness, inadequacy, and it’s much easier to get into doing mode, tiptoeing around, and trying to prevent those people from falling into behavior patterns. We cannot change other people. Only God can do that. 

Number two, similar to number one, you may be overly responsible for others if you take responsibility for others emotional experiences. What this looks like? We are called in scripture to have the fruit of the Spirit. When we are connected with God, we experience love, joy, peace, and patience. We are told to speak the truth in love. We also have to balance this with times where God calls people to be bold and to be brave, to prophesy at times and say hard truths. All that means is speaking the truth of the gospel or of Scripture. We’re called to do that in love. But a lot of times what happens is we tell ourselves, I can’t say what I need to say to this other person, or I cannot speak the truth to them because they’re going to be upset or they’re going to be angry at me and this can even happen in our closest, most intimate relationships with our spouse. Sometimes we need our spouse to call us out. And it’s a beautiful thing because that lets us know, hey, you have a blind spot here. 

My husband called me out not too long ago and said, “You have unforgiveness towards these people in your life.” I was like, “Oh! Ouch!” It did. It hurt my feelings, but I’m so thankful that he said that because that was a blind spot for me. I wasn’t in awareness that I was still holding on to so much anger and bitterness that in my perception I thought I had let go of, but what he was able to see from the outside view was “No, you haven’t let go of that.”

By allowing me to have that hard emotional experience, it drove me back to God. It drove me to prayer to say, “Okay, God, am I in unforgiveness?” Yes, I do believe, that I’ve been convicted and I’m in unforgiveness and allow me to pray through that and say, I don’t want to hold on to this anger towards these individuals any longer.

I don’t want to live in bitterness. Yes, I believe what they did was wrong, and I’ve had my time to be angry about it, and now it’s time to not continue to hold it against them and to let it go so that I can be at peace. These are also people that I want to continue in relationship with, and I want to continue walking side by side.

As a result of that, I need to have a positive, forgiving, and loving, gracious attitude towards these individuals. That was incredibly eye-opening and incredibly loving. But oftentimes what happens, even in Christian circles, is we say, “Oh, I can’t set a boundary because that’s going to hurt that person’s feelings,” or “I can’t speak the truth and let them know that they’re off course because they’re going to get mad at me and they might not want to be my friend anymore.” This is unhealthy in our lives when we take responsibility for other people’s feelings and try to prevent them from having hard feelings, because sometimes we need to have hard feelings. That’s a part of growth. 

If you say something, and even if it’s a kind word, and you know that person is going to be upset, they have to deal with their own feelings. You are only responsible for saying the kind words, for speaking the truth in love, for showing patience with other people and grace. We also don’t just run around calling people out just because we want to have a positive relationship with that person and be careful with our words. But there are times where you’re going to say kind things and people are going to get mad at you. There are going to be times where you say, Hey, I’d encourage you to look at this in your life or to look at that situation and they’re not going to receive that. You have to know that you have done your part of what you’re supposed to do. 

Number three, you may be overly responsible for other people if you believe that you can control or convince that person to change their behavior in some way. If only I say this, then maybe they’ll change.

If only I say that, then maybe they’ll get it finally. If I only tell them for the 50th time that they need to go to therapy, It’s the nagging wife syndrome, right, where you just continue to bring something up, continue to bring something up, continue to bring it up. What happens in these situations, you just get more and more frustrated, more angry. It’s like hitting a brick wall. What happens with the other person is they become more defensive often. “Okay, you’re telling me I need to change and so I’m going to dig in my heels and tell you that everything’s fine and we’re good.: The more that you push people with that type of energy of, “I need you to change so that I can be okay inside.” That’s the energy sometimes that we can bring to these relationships that we don’t even realize we’re bringing that energy. 

So whenever you are trying to change someone and they push back, that’s why, because it doesn’t feel good. And automatically, the knee-jerk reaction is to go into a defensive mode. We need to learn to be okay, even when other people in our life are not okay because you’re going to have them. You’re going to have those people. It doesn’t matter if it’s a family member. It doesn’t matter if it’s a co-worker that you really wish that they would change. It doesn’t matter if it’s a boss. There are going to be people in your life, regardless of what you do and what circles you’re in that you have a hard time relating to people that are just maybe difficult to deal with. 

I heard someone say they’re extra grace required people. I don’t remember who said that, so I apologize. Whenever you have an extra grace-required person in your life, that’s an opportunity for you to connect with the Lord to say, “Okay, God, I want to love this person well.”

What does loving them well look like? Sometimes loving them well means accepting their mess right now. It means saying, “Look, “I see you and I love you and I accept you right where you’re at. I don’t need you to change. I’d love it if you would change because it would help you be a better person. It would help you grow closer to the Lord, but as far as me, I can be okay, even if you’re not okay.” 

Sometimes it means setting healthy boundaries to say, in order for me to remain mentally healthy and love you the absolute best that I can, I’m going to need you to know that this is what I can give to the relationship and then I’m going to have to take a step back in some other areas. I’m going to have to kind of let you fall at times. I’m going to have to. let you make choices and make mistakes. That is really, really hard sometimes for us to do. It’s hard for us to sit with these difficult emotions and knowing that someone is making very poor choices over their life, but if you have already spoken those truths to them and encouraged them towards the right path, then you have done your part.

You have done what you can and it’s time to take a step back and trust God with the rest. As you can see, kind of through this process, there are some reasons that we take responsibility for other people’s stuff. It’s because we have a hard time sitting with the emotions that come up. When they make choices that are either unhealthy or that we disagree with, let me tell you what really helps with dealing with those difficult emotions. It’s developing what we call distress tolerance, which is a big way of handling the hard things that come our way. 

A great way that you can do that is mindfulness. I have a course on mindfulness that’ll walk you through the process. What does it look like to be in the present moment, to be aware of what’s going on and in acceptance?

A lot of what we’re talking about today is accepting other people’s choices that may not be great. That’s a hard thing to do. We don’t want to do that. We don’t want to accept that someone’s inactive addiction right now. We want them to be free and whole, and we don’t want to accept that we have a person in our life that might fly off the handle unexpectedly.

We don’t want to accept that. We want that to change because that would help us feel better internally and not have to sit on the edge of ourseatst with all that energy of what’s going to happen with this person. But once we accept our situation, it leads to a sense of greater peace. We know what our role is.

We know what God’s role is. We know what that other person’s role is. And we’re able to tease some of those things out and a little bit cleaner way. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode. You can reach us any time via our contact form, hopeforanxietyandocd.com. 

Thank you so much. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling.Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed therapist.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

118. How Do I know if this Thought is an OCD Obsession? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

Join Carrie as she helps you distinguish personal thoughts from OCD obsessions. She breaks down common OCD themes and the urgency they create and offers practical tips for navigating the complexities of OCD.

Episode Highlights:

  • How to recognize common themes of OCD thoughts.
  • The urgency often associated with OCD obsessions and the behaviors they provoke.
  • The tendency of OCD to make insignificant issues feel overwhelmingly important.
  • The importance of mindfulness in discerning the true significance of intrusive thoughts.
  • Strategies for embracing uncertainty and resisting the urge to seek reassurance.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 118 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD. I’m your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor here in Tennessee. Today, we’re diving into a question many of you have asked: “How do I know if this is an OCD obsession?”

Let’s break it down into four key points to help you identify whether what you’re experiencing is an OCD obsession.

1. Align with Your Typical OCD Themes: Think about whether your current obsession matches the usual themes of your OCD. For example, if you struggle with scrupulosity, your obsessions might revolve around fears of offending God or committing sins. If your thoughts fit these recurring themes, it’s likely an OCD obsession.

2. Sense of Urgency: OCD often creates a sense of urgency, making you feel like you need to resolve or answer something immediately. This urgency can manifest as excessive rumination or seeking reassurance, like re-reading scripture or asking for advice repeatedly. If it feels urgent, it could be OCD at play.

3. Perceived Importance: OCD tends to magnify the importance of certain thoughts, making them seem like the most crucial issue at the moment. For instance, you might obsess over a past interaction or perceived mistake, even when it’s not relevant to your current life. Practice mindfulness to gauge whether these obsessions are overshadowing more immediate concerns.

4. Embrace Uncertainty: If you’re still unsure whether a thought is an OCD obsession, embracing uncertainty can be key. OCD loves to create a false sense of certainty, pushing you to seek answers immediately. By learning to sit with uncertainty, you can reduce the power of these obsessions. Remember, it’s okay not to have all the answers right now.

I hope these insights help you navigate your journey with OCD. If you need more support, head to carriebock.com/services/

Explore related episode:

87. OCD FAQ with Carrie and Dr. Kelley Kleppinger

Transcript

Hi, welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 118. I’m your host, Carrie Bock, and I’m a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I wanted to talk with you today about “How Do I Know If this is an OCD Obsession?” This is something that comes up for a lot of people, right? Is it God? Is it the devil? Is it OCD?

Is it an OCD obsession or is it really just me? I want to break it down for you a little bit, maybe give you four ways that you can know whether or not this is an OCD obsession. Number one, does it fall in line with your typical OCD themes? You know your themes that OCD typically runs through. For someone with scrupulosity, for example, “Have I offended God in this way?” “Did I actually sin?”

A lot of times, OCD starts with, “What if?” What if I hurt that person’s feelings? What if I ran over someone with my car? What if this is not arranged properly, then something bad might happen, that superstitious type of thinking that can come along with OCD? Is the obsession or the thought process that you’re having, is it in line with what your themes typically are?That’s number one. 

Number two, does this feel urgent? OCD will tell you, you have to do something about this right now and it may not be an external action. So it may not be like a typical checking the doorknob or checking to make sure that the stove is off one more time. It may be a rumination of. I have to figure this out right now, and I have to have an answer right now.

It feels very urgent, so that may lead you to say, “Okay, if I need to know right now, that means I’m going to go Google about it. I’m going to go call my best friend and ask her the same question that I’ve already asked her and I’ve already received an answer to.” That’s reassurance seeking. “I have to sit here and think about it, or I have to find three scripture verses that tell me yes or no. I have to look at what this pastor that I listen to, let me try to see if he’s done a sermon about this situation.” If it feels like, yes, I’ve got to engage, I’ve got to do something, I’ve got to figure it out and it’s so urgent. It’s like, I’ve got to do it right now. That’s a good indicator that you are dealing with an OCD obsession.

Number three, does it feel like it is the most important thing, even if it is not? OCD has a tendency to just cloud and zoom in and tell you this is the thing that you need to be focused on. Right now, you need to be focused on, did you hurt that person’s feelings three years ago when you told them the truth about their boyfriend, that he wasn’t the right person for them.

OCD may have you stuck on that for a long time. And if you’re able to zoom out a little bit and look at kind of your life in total, Is the most important thing to be focusing on right now, or is it just that’s what OCD is telling me? It’s the most important thing to focus on right now. Because what happened between you and your friend three years ago when you made a comment about her boyfriend wasn’t the person she should be with.

I imagine that you have many other things going on in your life right now, whether that’s work, school, family responsibilities, current friendships, maybe you’re still in a relationship with that friend and things are fine right now. What’s actually happening in the present. This is why I teach people mindfulness skills.

This is why I stress those and have a course on mindfulness because learning to be able to be in the present helps us know what’s the most important thing right now. And a lot of times it’s not what OCD is telling you. Sometimes, we can be running from the stress of the present moment into an obsession and you don’t even realize that you’re doing it.

It’s much easier for me to like, it’s a familiar pathway in my brain, maybe easier is not the right word, but it’s a familiar pathway in my brain ruminate about this scripture verse and trying to figure it out. Versus sitting with the uncertainty maybe of my present situation of a family member who’s sick or of not being certain if I’m doing a good job on this work project.

Thinking about what is OCD possibly trying to distract you from that’s uncomfortable in the present. And as you’re able to sit more with some of those present uncertainties, that’s going to help you be able to manage the OCD and to recognize. That it’s not the most important thing right now.

Acceptance and commitment therapy or act teaches you to move towards your values, to move towards what’s important to you. And so if you’re sitting in your room obsessing about something or seeking a lot of reassurance, a lot of times that’s taking time away. From what’s most important to you at that moment.

Even though OCD is telling you, Hey, you’ve got to figure this out right now, you’ve got to sit and ruminate on it. Thinking about what are my values? What’s actually most important to me? How can I move towards that value system instead of being stuck in this OCD loop over and over again, where I like to tell people that OCD is trying to get you to scratch an itch that you can’t scratch.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had an itch on your back that you couldn’t reach. It’s a little bit like that. It’s like, well, maybe I can, maybe if I just move this way, or, oh, maybe if I just put my arm that way, maybe I’ll be able to get to it. That’s what OCD obsessions are like. It wants you to believe that you can scratch that itch, but really you can’t.

Really, you have to learn to be able to sit With the discomfort to sit with the uncertainty. And as long as you keep chasing, being able to scratch that itch, the more and more uncomfortable you’re going to be. And it’s just going to continue back that loop of obsession and compulsion. We’ve covered three different points so far on the four points of how do I know if this is an OCD obsession or not.

Let’s say point number four is that you’re still unsure. You’re still not sure if this is an OCD obsession or not. And I would say, encourage you to embrace that uncertainty in any way that you can. I know that may seem big or impossible for some of you who are listening to this. With anxiety or OCD, but embracing uncertainty is what allows you to be able to say, Hey, I can move forward towards my values.

I can keep living and functioning in my day-to-day life. I don’t have to figure this out right now. There are some things that take us a long time to figure out. Is this the person that I’m supposed to marry? Probably shouldn’t make that decision in a day or in an hour. We don’t necessarily need to know that absolutely right now, but that is what OCD is telling you, to say, let me sit with this uncertainty.

Let me gather more data over time, not gather more data by Googling a bunch of stuff. But let me take my time on deciding, is this the person that I should marry? If it’s a spiritual obsession, a lot of times people can get stuck on sins and making sure, “Okay, I have to eradicate every sin from my life, sins in the present, sins in the past.” Can I sit with the fact that maybe there are some things that I’ve done in the past? Maybe sometimes I can reconcile those things. But there are some things that we just can’t that it might be damaging to go back and rehash something with somebody that they’ve already healed from, but you might still be stuck in shame about that’s something that you might have to sit with.

Embracing that uncertainty and that discomfort in the present is going to help. Slow you down, slow all the racing obsessions down because the less that you give into them, the less that they’re going to reoccur. Everyone has uncertainty in their life. Everyone has things that they don’t know, and it’s okay to not know, and it’s okay to have a mindful moment and acknowledge there are some things that I’m questioning right now.

There are some things that I am uncertain about. I can sit with those things. I can recognize that discomfort, but I don’t have to become a slave to it. I can continue living my life. I hope that these tips have been helpful for you and you can reach out to me anytime at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I encourage you to click on the courses tab and check out the options there.

I have a great course on mindfulness that can really help you learn to sit with some of that uncertainty, learn to sit with those uncomfortable feelings and recognizing you don’t have to act on them. 

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

117. Demonic Oppression or OCD? A Personal Story with Jessica Ray

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

Carrie interviews Jessica Ray about her experiences with OCD and faith. They discuss how OCD developed alongside Jessica’s newfound faith after childhood trauma.

Episode Highlights:

  • The challenges of navigating OCD within Christian community.
  • The importance of recognizing the difference between demonic oppression and mental illness.
  • Jessica’s journey of finding relief through diagnosis and treatment.
  • The supportive role of Christian community even at times they didn’t understand mental health struggles.
  • Specific things that helped her along her journey of healing. 

Related Links and Resources:

Jessica Ray’s YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/@JessicaJoy34

Instagram: www.instagram.com/joynicole_34/

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Episode 117 of Christian Faith and OCD. For the past three years, I’ve seen firsthand how sharing personal journeys can deeply resonate with our community. Many of us facing anxiety and OCD may feel isolated, but connecting through shared experiences and faith can be incredibly uplifting.

In this episode, I’m honored to speak with Jessica Rae, who opens up about her personal battle with OCD. Jessica’s story is remarkable as her symptoms began in her late teens, right after a profound conversion to Christianity. She describes how her OCD manifested through relentless obsessive thoughts and paralyzing panic attacks, particularly around her role in evangelism and her personal relationships.

Jessica’s path to healing has been both challenging and inspiring. Initially, she encountered some misconceptions about mental health within her church community, which complicated her journey. However, Jessica’s perseverance led her to seek professional help and receive an accurate OCD diagnosis. This pivotal step marked the beginning of her significant progress in managing her symptoms.

Jessica’s experience highlights the critical role of recognizing mental health issues and finding the right support. It also emphasizes the power of faith and community in the healing process.

Explore Related episode:

108. OCD personal story with Michael Kheir

Transcript

One thing that I’ve learned over the course of three years doing these podcast episodes is that you guys love personal stories. You find them very relatable because so many people dealing with anxiety and OCD feel isolated They feel like I’m the only one that’s going through these things.

So it really helps you to hear from other Christians who are also struggling and how they’ve seen God in their redemptive story. They’re still in process of working through some things. You know, we’re all on a journey to become more like Christ and in pursuit of healing from him. Today on the show, I have with me Jessica Rae and Jessica had emailed me when I was looking for guests and just offered to share her story. If you would like to be a part of our email list, definitely go on www.hopeforanxietyandocd/free. Hit up any of our downloads and then you can kind of be in the know and get random questions thrown at you sometimes.

Carrie: Jessica, I appreciate you responding to that and welcome to the show. 

Jessica: Thank you for having me. Excited to be on. 

Carrie: Tell me a little bit about how OCD showed up for you when you were younger.

Jessica: Whenever I was very tiny, under the age of two years old, I was a victim of sexual abuse. And I can remember having anxiety attacks, probably starting around four or five years old.

I also had an issue with food at a super young age. As a whole, I wouldn’t say that anyone ever recognized that I was an anxious child, but I definitely remember having things pop up like anxiety attacks if I was away from my parents or in a place that I wasn’t comfortable in. Anxiety really didn’t pop up for me until I was around 19 years old.

So my story’s probably a little bit different from other people. I didn’t really have any OCD type symptoms manifest until a little bit later on, until around 19, 20 years old.

Carrie: Okay. Do you feel like the people in your life just kind of saw some of these maybe as Age appropriate behaviors, like it’s somewhat normal for children to go through separation anxiety, and maybe they didn’t realize internally how much that was affecting you or how troubling that was for you?

Jessica: I would say so. I can remember having a very black and white bend in my thinking. And a shame oriented type thinking, especially if it had to do with getting in trouble or rules, or if I’d done something wrong, I could only hold it for so long and I had to go and confess it. I can remember going to church off and on as a kid and somehow I only heard hell.

I didn’t hear the gospel. My brain focused in on the idea of hell and I just thought I was going there. I can recognize internally that I had some issues. Very black and white thinking and some shame based thinking, but outwardly, I would say I appear pretty, if you want to call it, normal. Right. So it would make sense that my parents didn’t think to take me to a professional or anything like that.

Carrie: Yeah. What showed up when you were 19? What happened there?

Jessica: 19 is when I was born again. 19 is whenever I began my relationship with Jesus. I had a very, very radical conversion for lack of a better way to put it. Things changed for me overnight. God really just changed my heart and I was truly born again.

I was all in 100 percent and that is when the obsessive thinking, the panic, the anxiety started to manifest. I would say the first, after two or three months in going to church regularly. Being in the scriptures, starting to be discipled, I started to have some behaviors and some ways of thinking, looking back on it, that I’m like, there’s OCD.

Some examples that I could share would be, a few months in, I had a thought that I needed to end a relationship that, a friendship that I’d had from childhood. And this person wasn’t a believer, but she wasn’t bringing any sort of that influence into my life. And I just had this thought that I needed to end this friendship.

Even after talking to my youth pastor and them encouraging me not to do that, the anxiety, the obsessive thinking that what if that was God’s voice and I’m being disobedient, that sort of thing. Just was so intense that I ended the friendship. That was kind of the beginning of it. After that OCD latched on to evangelism.

I was a baby, baby Christian. I’m introverted by nature. I’m not somebody that just walks up to strangers and let me tell you about Jesus. It usually happens in a relational form for me, but it seemed that anytime I would hear a teaching. And it seemed that I was deficient and are not doing things that I should be doing, quote unquote, not doing things the right way my brain would latch on to it.

So very early on, I had an evangelism obsession. The anxiety of walking up to a stranger probably outweighed the anxiety of OCD in most points, but I remember going and knocking on doors at my grandma’s apartment complex in absolute torment. Praying for people having a pure heart wanting to honor God, but just not knowing what was going on And having thoughts and every thought that I have, I think it might be God.

I was in quite a bit of torment the first year of my walk with God because of undiagnosed OCD.

Carrie: Wow. The people that were discipling you, did they pick up like something just doesn’t seem quite right here? Like, were you asking for a lot of reassurance or, but maybe they couldn’t put their finger on it of what was going on?

Jessica:  Yes. About three or four months in, the evangelism compulsions hit. I was living in Northeast Texas, which is not where I’m from. I’m from Houston area. And I started going to this church. I went to church by myself. My dad would drop me off and I would just go because nobody in my family was really following the Lord.

On my journey, God’s really put people in my life really to protect me. People that were very kind, but were also very patient and would kind of deal with the reassurance that I needed. I had a pastor that I would call at seven o’clock in the morning. He was so kind and patient, but yes, I had the wife of my associate pastor and then the pastor of the church that I was going to, my best friend, I would call her at three o’clock in the morning because I couldn’t sleep, I was just absolutely tormented and they would try to direct me and give me reassurance.

You have to be led by the Holy Spirit. All these things, I was so new in the faith and I’m dealing with this anxiety disorder and. It was like dropping a quarter into a bottomless pit. It just, it would come back. I don’t think anyone around me knew what OCD was. I don’t think anyone around me even thought, Oh, this is a mental illness, which kind of tells you the lack of awareness that we have in the church.

Definitely, I think maybe what was going on with me at first was branded as like legalism. I come from more of a charismatic background and so maybe more of like thinking it was demonic oppression or things like that. No one really even thought, Oh, this could be something that maybe she needs a doctor. That conversation never happened.

Carrie: I really wish that we could put out more educational materials to the church to let them know some of these warning signs of scrupulosity. So that if they have someone who seems quite distressed and is coming and asking a lot of questions, instead of saying like, okay, this person is really trying to figure everything out, or they’re dedicated to their faith, or, and like, it could look a lot of different ways.

That they really have some information to point that person in the right direction to say, Hey, this is potentially what it’s called. Go to a mental health professional and see if you can get assessed and get some help so that you’re not living in such a high state of distress. I wonder if when you got saved and then there was all this psychological torment, was there a part of you that sensed there’s some kind of peace in here?

I know God’s with me. Like even in the midst of all of that that was going on because you kept following Christ, like you didn’t give up on your faith.

Jessica: I think that I had such, for lack of a better way of putting it, I had such a supernatural experience. My conversion experience was very much, I knew nothing about Jesus and I just came to God in absolute surrender and I was changed.

Literally overnight, I fell in love with Jesus. But in a sense, I fell in love with the God that I didn’t really know yet. I know I was absolutely convinced that Jesus was it for me. I didn’t want anything else. But honestly, the first couple years, I didn’t have that peace. It was several years down the line of the Lord really intervening in these places where I was super tormented.

There are some pretty wonderful stories that I have in ways that God just supernaturally would just drop things in my life to be like, hey, this isn’t who I am. This isn’t me. But it was rough. It was rough for quite a while. That’s that piece, that anchor didn’t come until a little while down the road.

Carrie: It seemed like you held on to your salvation experience though. I find that even in the midst of like all of the OCD distress, usually, people can name a time or two out of their life where they really saw, whether it was their conversion experience or whether it was experiences after that as well, like, okay, I know that God is real and I have encountered him in this experience in a positive way.

It’s almost like the Israelites when they picked up stones from the river, it’s like kind of remember that you crossed the Jordan and you each get a stone so that you can remember that God did this miracle for you. And I feel like we need those markers in our own lives as Christians. To say, hey, things are really rough right now, and I don’t have stable footing, but I know God did this back here, and so I know that he’s going to be able to do, lead me through the next part of life that feels scary or uncertain or troubling.

Jessica: Yes. I would say at the beginning stages of my walk with God, he really showed up for me through people. I had wonderful people around me who loved me really well, and who were very patient. It’s kind of mind-boggling the way that looking back, I can see how God protected me. It was almost like I was in this little bubble, but he did it through people.

That was one way that I definitely look back and go, “wow.” There are a few other just short moments that I could share. One, I was in Northeast Texas and my best friend was around Houston area where we lived and she knew what was going on with me, what I was experiencing because I was calling her at three o’clock in the morning, which she was really in it with me, which I’m so grateful for her.

We’re still best friends. She was driving home from work, and she said the only way she could describe it is she felt internally like God yelled at her. Hell, Jessica, this. And what she felt was, stop trying to answer all of your questions. Give me all of your questions. Look at what this does to you. Look at the fruit of this.

If it tears you up, it’s not for me. When she told me that that was like, okay, I held on to that for about like 10 years. I held on to those concepts. And so anytime I would have these looping thoughts or I would have this. Anxiety that I felt like I couldn’t manage. I would literally just be like, God, I have no idea.

I don’t have the answer to this. I would just say, you have it. He just carried me that way. I live pretty normally for about 10 years. Okay. Using those few things, and of course, if you look at scripture, scripture backs that those concepts up. And the way that you traditionally treat OCD, in a sense, kind of lines up with, you know, surrendering things to God, the Ian Osborne, Catholic Christianity Cure OCD, I think he calls it something along the lines of, I can’t think of the word, but the whole concept is just surrendering these.

Formenting thoughts and doubts up to God and letting him be big enough to carry them. So I was really applying these principles before I knew I had OCD, which is a testament to the faithfulness of God. That’s one thing. One other story that’s really close to my heart is I was cleaning a room one day in my mom’s house.

This was about five or six years into my walk with God. I’m still wrestling with these tormenting doubts about certain theological issues and there’s a Bible on the floor and the room was a wreck and I was cleaning it and I opened up the Bible and it opened up to a scripture that God had highlighted to me and Isaiah about a year before.

He’s speaking to the Israelites. And he says, “Oppression will be far from you for you shall not fear.” And it’s all these promises of God establishing them in righteousness and them being free from fear. And he had used that scripture before to show me like, your life is not going to be what you’re experiencing right now.

This is not going to be your life. And that day when I was just in the muck and the mire of anxiety and obsessive thoughts. And we all have those moments when we’re dealing with that kind of anxiety, where we think we’re not going to make it. And when I opened up the Bible and it was right there to that passage, I was like, okay, I mean, how could that not be God?

I’ve had a lot of those stories on my journey, but that’s one that I can really highlight is that was just maybe a small but a supernatural act of God to keep me going really.

Carrie: You talked about having a period where OCD didn’t bother you. It bothered you really intensely and then you were able to surrender some of those doubts and having to figure it out to God and you kind of had a more peaceful period there and then things came back and that happens with OCD sometimes.

The symptoms kind of wax and wane. It depends on life change and stress and other issues. Tell us about when that came back. What happened? Was that closer to you getting a diagnosis?

Jessica: Yes. I had had some pockets off and on in my twenties where I would have those looping thoughts and that anxiety. But every time that that would happen, I would eventually just say, you know what?

The way that I was taught was it was just demonic oppression. And so I’d be like, Oh, this is the spirit of fear. And I’m going to choose not to listen to this. And then I would come back up for air and kind of go on about my way. When I was 30, I got into my first serious relationship as a Christian adult.

That’s when OCD was triggered, and really, that’s when everything came to a head. So one of the major themes that I wrestled with is relationship OCD. Relationship OCD and scrupulosity have been the two, a little bit of body image issues, body dysmorphic disorder type issues, but those are the two main themes that I’ve struggled with so I got into this relationship.

It was not a bad relationship. It was not abusive We were both believers. It was good. It wasn’t we were young and whatever but I began to obsess over Every little thing everything he did everything. He said I was terrified that I had to break up with him I was terrified that he was crazy, that there was just something horribly wrong with him, with his character.

At that time, I was living in a house with some ladies from the church I went to. The woman who owned the house, she was like a mom to me. There was a good two month period where I was in just an absolute panic and torment constantly, almost every single day, and it got to the point where I was sleeping in bed with her because I didn’t want to be alone.

I wasn’t eating very much. I wasn’t sleeping very much. I probably lost 20 pounds. Kind of one of the parts, I think, that kept me from getting help a little bit sooner was that the church culture that I was involved in at the time really believed that any sort of mental illness was demonic. Not that the person was doing anything wrong, but that this was demonic oppression or however you want to say that.

There was no awareness of, hey, mental illnesses are actually demonic. Medical and biological. This could actually be something that needs medication or a doctor. There was no grid for that. I started having panic attacks multiple times a day at work because I’m single, never been married. I didn’t have a lot to fall back on financially.

I had to get up every day and go to work. There’s no option there. So I’m having panic attacks. I started having really horrifying, intrusive thoughts. The worst thoughts that you could imagine. Blasphemous, violent, those kinds of things. That was really the breaking point where I thought that my life was over.

I literally thought that my life was over. I don’t know how, I didn’t know what I thought was going to happen to me, but I just thought one night after getting one hour of sleep, I called my pastor. Everybody loved me really well through this, even though they weren’t, but they still love me very well. I called my pastor.

I had gotten one hour of sleep and he just said, sweetie, I think it’s time for you to go to the doctor. I had been involved in a ministry that referred me to this psychiatry practice in my area that was Christian, that they kind of worked in tandem with. I called, I set up an appointment. On my way to work, I dragged myself out of bed and went to work, and on my way to work, a friend sent me an article on harm OCD.

She had been kind of Googling, praise the Lord for Google sometimes, unless you’re using it for a compulsion. Yeah. She googled my symptoms and she found an article on Harm OCD. And I got to work and I read it and I was like, Oh my gosh, not just the thoughts, but the OCD cycle, the obsessions, the looping thoughts, the reassurance and the anxiety coming back.

I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is what’s happening to me.” I have this article in hand, and I show up to the psychiatry practice that I still go to, and met my psychiatrist for the first time, such a wonderful man, I’m just so thankful for him, and he confirmed this is textbook OCD, and so I got the diagnosis.

Carrie: Where you more shocked or relieved, or how did you feel at that point?

Jessica: I was relieved to know what was happening to me.

Carrie: To have an answer finally. 

Jessica: Yes. I’m very much a solution-focused person, and so I’m like, okay, this is what’s happening. All right, give me the tools. What do I do? I texted my pastor and said, “Okay, this is what’s going on.”

He was really supportive, and I just started devouring anything and everything I could surrounding OCD and how to treat it. I remember that night coming home after being diagnosed and finally sleeping, finally having a good night’s sleep. That’s where my recovery journey started was right then.

Carrie: It’s hard to have mental health issues, but I find it more terrifying to think Evil is constantly oppressing me on a daily basis.

Jessica: Yes, and having an anxiety disorder, and having this thought in your head that this is a demon, well, I mean that, in and of itself, that just runs them up internally. I remember being afraid that my sanity was going to be stolen from me because panic attacks, a genuine panic attack is from what I understand is your fight or flight response, just going crazy.

You feel like you’re going to die. You feel like you’re going to go crazy. I was experiencing derealization. I felt like I was coming out of my skin, like it was horrifying. And so to not know my body’s doing this. I’m not being taken over by some demonic entity and having a panic attack to not know that in that moment. That’s even more terrifying, I would say.

Carrie: How did your theology, I guess, shift after that point? Or did you end up like switching churches or changing things at some point? Like, what was that process like? Because I think that we have different experiences and not that your experience is the litmus test of God. That’s the scriptures, but God works in our lives through experience, sometimes to teach us about him. I do believe that’s biblical. So what was that process like? 

Jessica: All of the above. I do go to a different church now. The house that I was living in, the woman who owned it, wonderful, godly woman, loved me so well, was so patient with me.

I guess my church community didn’t have, like I said, a grid for mental illness. I guess. I’m a truth person, I’m a justice person, and if I know something to be true, then I’m not going to say that something else is going on. I’m a very open book. I jumped into recovery headfirst and embraced that I have obsessive-compulsive disorder.

This is a thing. I started to learn, well, naturally, if somebody asked me how I’m doing, or if I’m having a conversation, I’m going to share. I just got this diagnosis, or whatever. I stayed at my church for a couple years, but these things that I had learned just started not to line up anymore, and the more I understood mental illness, not just OCD, but schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is a brain disease. I just started to realize these things that I’ve been taught, they don’t work, they’re not helpful, they’re not necessarily 100 percent scriptural, and I felt such a peace on the inside of me from God. I just started. That hey, this is what’s going on. This is your avenue of healing.

This is where I’m leading you Is to understand these things I slowly but surely just really started to feel like I couldn’t fully be myself anymore in this beautiful church family that I had been in because there was this part of me that was seen as, well, I experienced it to be seen as she’s oppressed demonically.

Carrie: The primary problem is spiritual, not the problem is medical, mental health, emotional And so many of those things overlap, right?

So it’s hard for us to sit here and tease out and determine sometimes, what’s medical? What’s mental health? What’s spiritual? What’s going on? I personally do not believe that we need to be afraid of demons because we have the Holy Spirit inside of us. Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.

There may be times where we are tempted and thrown off track or discouragement comes our way. And we know certain things are clearly not from God. So those pieces are hard to tease out, but I think it removes kind of like what we were talking about before. It removes some of the fear if you’re able to say, “Hey, I know at least that I do have this medical mental health diagnosis, and  I don’t need to be afraid of that,  I can actually, like you said, embrace it as, okay, this is what I’m dealing with now that I know, now that I can do something different about it. What is that recovery process been for you like, and just kind of share with us where you are now.

Jessica: Like I said, I began to really just devour any and all resources that I could get my hands on.

I found a book by a local pastor named Jeff Wells. It’s called breaking free of OCD and it’s about his 30-year-long battle with OCD and how knowing God as a father and applying scriptural principles and he had a lot of recovery. I read that book and I found Jamie Eckert. She has scrupulosity.com. She has a coaching group. I joined that. I really started to get some tools in my tool belt and really apply the standard OCD tools, like how we treat it with acceptance and commitment therapy, some ERP exposure-response and prevention tools, Jamie Eckert, her materials helped me probably more than any of them.

Things like, I’m going to put this on ice for two days or for a week. I’m having this obsessive thought, you know what? Put it on ice. It’s going to be okay. You know, that kind of thing. So I would just say workbooks, online resources. I do have therapists, but I never sought classical OCD treatment. There are so many resources that are free. 

I’m an advocate for therapy, 100%. If you have that, and if you can afford it, and if it’s accessible, 100 percent go for it, but there’s just a lot of online resources. I refuse to be debilitated, and there’s so much hope in the OCD recovery community. No OCD doesn’t get to run your life.

I just really started applying tools. I got to a good place. I was diagnosed in June of 2020. It took me probably about nine months to a year to get it back to like, I would say more normal everyday living. In 2022, I had this reemergence of evangelism, compulsions, and scrupulosity that took me out for a couple of months. During that time, I had been feeling the Lord. He just orchestrated some circumstances that kind of booted me out of my church. I started going to a local church, and Jeff Wells is the pastor of that local church, that book that I referenced before.

So he understood OCD. It’s called Woods Edge Community Church. They offer a recovery group called Regeneration, or for short, Regen. In that place of crisis, I started attending that church, and that first week after I had left my church, I went to a Regen meeting, I signed up, I was like, I need something, I need help.

I don’t even know fully what I’m doing, but I need help. It’s a 12-step program. It’s very biblically based and the basis of it is we are powerless to overcome these things in our own strength with the power of the Holy Spirit. God can transform anything that we might be going through. And so the recovery group was different from other 12 step programs.

It wasn’t just about addiction. It could be codependency, mental illness. I went through the program, and God really confronted unbelief in my life. I had this lie that I lived in for all of these years that I’ve been walking with Jesus that He expected me to fix. My own issues that he expected me to solve my own problems.

I finally got to probably the end of myself realizing I cannot fix this. There are parts of me that just feel utterly broken. There are parts of me that feel disabled, the way that my brain works. When you have OCD, your brain tends to be so black and white that you genuinely at times, at least for me, still can’t discern certain things.

This foundation, the first three steps are admit, believe, and trust. Admit that you’re powerless. Believe that God is all powerful and can change and transform anything that you’re going through and trust that he actually wants to and that he will and that the believe and trust. I was like, “Oh, man, I don’t trust God at all.”

It pushed me into the scripture in a way that nothing else ever had. And if you really look at scripture, there is this ongoing theme of as humans, one, we can’t fix ourselves apart from me. You can do nothing. We don’t have the power to overcome these things. God doesn’t expect us to, and his willingness to help come alongside and heal those that simply look to him and trust.

I mean, it’s everywhere in the scripture. I just came to this point of, are you going to believe what this book says about me? Are you going to believe your circumstances? Your circumstances look really dire to you. They look really big and really hopeless, but is that what my book says? He really started to heal this view that I had of him.

Slowly but surely, I’ve come to a place of, John 15, 4 through 5 is one of my favorite scriptures and it says, “Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.” And it goes on to say, for apart from me you can do nothing.

God has really just brought me to this place of rest. Where the situation comes in my life. I don’t have an answer for I go to him and I invite him into the situation and I’ve seen him just do amazing and just mind blowing things with these situations that I just give over to him and I simply make space. I make space for the Holy Spirit to do his work.

Carrie: That trust piece is, it’s so hard and it’s so huge. I know it’s something that God has really worked with me on in my own life. In our culture, there’s so much striving and so much working and so much self-improvement. Even, you know, we’re kind of self improvement junkies.

Sometimes, like you said, what God wants us to do is like, be still and know that he’s God, and take the step back and say, okay, I surrender, I give up trying to do it on my own, and I need you to enter in. But sometimes God has to get us to the end of ourselves. He’s like, okay, you’re ready now. You’re ready now for me to step in and to do that work because you came to the end of you.

Our pastor shared this quote recently by Jackie Hill Perry about trust. And it said this is because God is holy. He cannot sin, and if he cannot sin, that means he must be the most trustworthy being on the planet. It’s hard for us to wrap our minds around that because we’ve been so hurt and wounded by other people in our life, just from living life.

It doesn’t matter who you are or how old you are, you’ve been hurt and wounded by somebody or something that’s happened to you. Just recognizing that character of God is so different that we can trust him, we can rest, we can let go. But sometimes it means that we have to do the hard work of surrendering and letting go and trusting and embracing that God is here and is with us in the midst of this.

Jessica: Yes, I realized along this journey that I couldn’t actually surrender. I couldn’t even surrender in my own strength because you have these faulty beliefs. It could be because of trauma, like with me experiencing sexual abuse, especially being so young. I was under two. I mean, that shaped your worldview like nothing else does.

And I realized I genuinely don’t know how to trust you. I don’t know how to let this go. And he’s so beautiful and so kind. He gave me the power and the strength that I needed to even do that. That’s why I love to encourage and try and share this hope that you can do any of it on your own. And that’s actually wonderful.

We don’t have to, he doesn’t expect this to you. The other day I was reading, I can’t remember what book in the scripture it is. You hear about the Holy Spirit being our advocate. Well, the scripture also references Jesus as being an advocate as well. And I looked up the definition of an advocate, and one of the definitions was one who comes alongside.

That’s good. That just, it just gave me so much more hope, and it was so much more confirmation that I don’t have to do this life by myself. Paul said that I will boast all the more in my weaknesses, my sufferings, when I’m weak, He’s strong. His power has made perfect in weakness. I don’t wish mental illness on anybody or physical illness or any suffering.

I do believe, though, that when we come face to face with our weakness as humans, it’s beautiful because that’s when we really experience God in a sweeter, in a deeper way. I believe at least. That’s been my experience.

Carrie:  Awesome. Thank you, Jessica, for being so willing and open to sharing your story, and I’m glad that you have gotten a variety of different support along the way, whether it was people just loving you, even when they didn’t understand everything, to getting more specific help medically and discipleship help through the church.

It sounds like God has really used a variety of different things in your life to bring you. to where God wants you to be. So thank you for being here and sharing all of that. 

Jessica: Yes, thank you for having me.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

116. Why Am I depressed and Tired All the Time? Could it be Sleep Apnea? with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode.

Join Carrie today as she shares her personal journey with unexplained fatigue and depression, leading to a surprising discovery of obstructive sleep apnea.

Episode Highlights:

  • The surprising connection between unexplained fatigue and obstructive sleep apnea.
  • Key symptoms of sleep apnea to watch out for, beyond just snoring.
  • How home sleep studies have made diagnosis more accessible and convenient.
  • The crucial link between physical health and mental well-being.
  • Simple steps you can take to improve your health and quality of life

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 116 of Christian Faith and OCD! I’m Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Today, I’m sharing my personal journey with unexplained fatigue and how it led to the discovery of obstructive sleep apnea. If you’ve ever felt persistently tired despite normal medical tests, you’re not alone. I experienced this firsthand, feeling sluggish before pregnancy and then struggling with restless leg syndrome. My exhaustion was so overwhelming that I felt like a “walking zombie,” even though my baby was sleeping through the night.

Last fall, despite a full night’s sleep, I needed excessive naps, which I initially attributed to grief from losing my parents. However, my symptoms were eventually linked to obstructive sleep apnea, a condition where the airway collapses during sleep, causing frequent breathing interruptions. This condition results in severe daytime fatigue, snoring, headaches, and can worsen mental health conditions like depression and anxiety.

Obstructive sleep apnea often goes undiagnosed but can be identified with a sleep study. The primary treatment is CPAP therapy, which helps keep your airway open. Modern CPAP machines are now more comfortable than ever, and using one significantly improved my life. I felt more refreshed, had more energy, and could fully engage in daily activities. If you’re dealing with unexplained fatigue or related symptoms, consider getting tested for sleep apnea, especially if other tests are normal.

For those seeking support, my counseling practice in Tennessee offers both in-person and online sessions. I also provide consultations for individuals outside of Tennessee.

Tune in for more:

51. Surrendering Our Insomnia to God with Dr. Charles Page

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Transcript

  Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 116. I am your host, Keri Bach, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, and I’m happy to be with you here today. I wanted to tell you another personal story of mine. And I know some people probably that have heard some of my past stories are wondering, how in the world can this person go through so many things?

The answer is, I don’t know. I was hesitant even to record this episode because I thought some people are gonna find this a little bit unbelievable. However, I’m here. I’m still standing. Everything’s good. Have you ever been tired and no doctor can give you any kind of medical explanation for it? Some of you know what I’m talking about.

Maybe you’ve had all the blood work tested, they’ve checked for anemia, thyroid malfunction, vitamin deficits, nothing. Nothing comes up. Everything’s fine. Your doctor says it’s fine, but inside you’re like, something doesn’t feel fine. I’m tired all the time. This was a part of my story before I became pregnant.

I was a little sluggish, but, you know, nothing major. I talked to my OB GYN and said, Hey, could you just run the blood work again? Because I feel tired. She did. It was fine. Of course, when you get pregnant, then you have a reason to be tired, right? And pregnancy came along with absolutely horrible restless leg syndrome.

If you’ve never had restless It’s hard to describe, but your legs are not calm and they just feel this need to move. It can keep you up because it’s so uncomfortable. And Restless Leg Syndrome, hey, it’s something that can happen during pregnancy. And of course, as with pregnancy, there’s Very few options that you have in terms of what medication you can take, and so the restless leg syndrome medication they determined would have risk that I didn’t want, and I ended up taking that.

So I can’t sleep, still tired, and then I had a baby. Of course I was tired. I had every excuse to be tired. Who wouldn’t be? Now looking back on it, being outside of the situation, I was more than just tired. I was a walking, working, zombie mom. I was functional, I was doing the things I needed to do, yet I would crash on the couch after dinner, just, I was unable to engage with my daughter.

I remember just, like, laying there and feeling like I could go to sleep right now if there wasn’t so much happening around me. Last fall, I knew that there was something more wrong. My daughter was sleeping through the night, but I never woke up rested. I laid down and on a Sunday afternoon, I thought, well, I’m just going to get this quick cat nap after church and fell asleep for two hours.

And this was after I had already gotten a full night’s sleep the night before. I shouldn’t have needed a two hour nap. And I knew that that, that wasn’t normal. I was continuing to have daytime fatigue. I woke up with headaches. I felt depressed. I honestly chalked some of that up to losing both of my parents in a six month time span.

Some of you may remember on a previous episode where I was talking about my grief and loss journey, just telling you how exhausting it was. Well, I didn’t know that more than depression and grief were going on there. What was the secret cause to my exhaustion? Obstructive sleep apnea. Maybe you’ve heard of sleep apnea, but don’t really know that much about it.

And I wanted to share my story to help someone else who may be struggling with depression, anxiety, unexplainable fatigue. Sleep apnea is when the muscles in the neck relax at night, causing the airway to collapse, causing someone to stop breathing for a short period of time. And this can actually happen many times in a single hour of sleep.

So imagine multiplying that by the number of hours that you sleep at night, meaning that you could potentially stop sleeping. 30, 50 times in a night, easily. The symptoms of sleep apnea are daytime sleepiness, fatigue, snoring. I didn’t realize that snoring meant that somehow your airway was constricted. I thought it was just a thing that some people did.

Both of my parents snored. I had been told that I snored, but I never thought it was a big deal because no one had ever said, hey, I think you stop breathing when you’re sleeping. It was just like, hey, you snore. Observed episodes of stopped breathing. Sometimes that may happen if you have somebody that you’re sleeping with at night, like a spouse, waking up during the night, gasping, choking with a rapid heartbeat or in a panic.

This is an important symptom for some of you who are struggling with anxiety. You may not know that just waking up in a panic might be a symptom of sleep apnea. Morning headaches. When you lose oxygen to the brain, your head hurts. Trouble focusing, even on tasks that should be routine or pretty simple.

Depression, high blood pressure. I never had high blood pressure until I was pregnant with my daughter. It ended up with preeclampsia. I had some after my daughter that, you know, it didn’t go away right away. Blood pressure fluctuations. can happen with sleep apnea. Sometimes it can come up low, and that actually happened to me shortly before my diagnosis.

My blood pressure was actually a little bit low. So that’s something to watch out for. Oftentimes, we don’t know that we have high blood pressure unless we’re getting it checked. Restless leg syndrome or jerking movements during sleep. If your legs or arms just seem to be jerking a lot, that’s your body trying to wake you up.

Prior to my diagnosis, I didn’t know that being over 40 is a risk factor. I just turned 40 this past year. And the treatment for sleep apnea is CPAP therapy, which is where a machine blows air into your airway to keep it open, keep it from collapsing. It’s amazing. Unfortunately, sleep apnea often goes undiagnosed.

Shortly before I had my sleep study done, a client I hadn’t seen in a while came back to see me and she mentioned something about waking up in a panic attack. I had told her that was a symptom of sleep apnea. Previously, similar story, she tried to tell medical professionals, doctors, how tired she was and said, this isn’t normal that I’m this tired.

No one recommended a sleep study, but after talking with me, she pursued one and got on CPAP therapy and had come back and let me know that she was feeling so much better after engaging in that therapy. Many years ago, in order to get a sleep study, you would have had to go into a lab. Sometimes that still happens on rare occasions if for some reason a home sleep study doesn’t show anything.

But now there’s all these technology that they have to be able for you to take a device home and have your sleep study done at home in the comfort of your own home. That’s where most of us sleep comfortably and more naturally. I wore a ring device, um, on my finger that measured heart rate fluctuations and it was comfortable.

It was really easy to use. My results were given to me, which I wasn’t surprised at all by this point that I was diagnosed with a moderate obstructive sleep apnea. And they said that usually the home test is a little bit lower threshold. then in person. So it probably could have been in the severe category.

I was set up with a CPAP machine. Now, you may have heard all kinds of horrors about CPAP therapy, but I really didn’t have too much trouble adjusting. Once again, technology has advanced. They’ve created all different kinds of CPAP machines, masks, Slowly making them more and more comfortable, getting you fitted the right way, so that it’s easier to get adjusted to.

I immediately noticed that even with four hours on the CPAP, because in the beginning it felt like, okay, I could wear it about half the night and then I just needed to take it off. Four hours being on the CPAP was better than eight hours without it, in terms of feeling more refreshed in the morning and feeling more rested.

That kept me using it night after night. That kept me keep coming back because I just felt so good. One thing I want you to know that I realized now through this process, God created our bodies so incredibly resilient to adapt to situations. That realistically, we should not be able to adapt to. I learned that my body adapted to running on fumes.

Being tired had become so normal that I didn’t even realize how good I could feel until after the fact. Some of you are sitting here wondering, can I feel better? The answer is yes. Yes, you can feel better, but your body has gotten so used to living and being stuck in anxiety and depression that you don’t even know what’s on the other side because you’re just stuck and you’ve adapted to it.

I absolutely love my CPAP machine. If I travel, it goes with me. I do not leave home without it if I’m going to be sleeping somewhere else. I thank God for it. Every boarding, I feel so rested. I have so much more energy to play with my daughter. I have energy now to exercise. My brain is not foggy. I can focus on work.

I’m not a zombie mom anymore. Shortly after I started CPAP therapy, I was able to get off antidepressants because I had energy again to do the things that I wanted to do. I wasn’t feeling that huge weight anymore of just sluggishness. So often, we assume that mental health problems are always based in our mind alone, and you have to understand that our physical health and our mental health are so intertwined.

Sometimes there is a genuine medical root that is either causing your mental health symptoms or it could be exacerbating those symptoms. Maybe you have a propensity already towards anxiety and depression, but lack of oxygen to your brain due to sleep apnea is just exacerbating that problem so much more.

If you have any of these things symptoms that I listed before, and they just seem chronic, they’re not going away, they’re not getting better. All your blood work looks fabulous, but you know something’s wrong. Please, get tested. Don’t let the CPAP horror stories deter you. Untreated sleep apnea puts you at greater risk of having a heart attack or stroke.

So please get tested, at least rule it in or out. If you suspect that you may have sleep apnea at all. One of the reasons I’m doing this episode is because it’s not on a lot of people’s radar. And I’ve even had more clients come to see me with similar symptoms that I’ve really recommended. Like, Hey, you really may want to get a sleep study if for nothing else, at least rule it out.

And then you’ll know. You know, you’ll know one way or the other. For those of you who don’t know, I have a counseling practice in Tennessee. So if you are looking for counseling for trauma, anxiety, OCD, I am open for business, uh, in person in Smyrna, Tennessee, and online across the state of Tennessee. I also provide consultations for individuals who are out of state, helping them.

Get connected with resources that they might need, whether that’s therapist resources, self help materials. I have an online course for helping Christians develop mindfulness skills. What mindfulness does is it’s amazing for anxiety and OCD. It allows us to be able to. Be in the present moment with intentionality, developing self awareness, developing acceptance over our situation, allowing us to let go of control, give that control over to God.

He has it already anyway. Thank you so much for listening to the show today, and you can always reach us anytime online at hopeforanxietyandocd. com. Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bach, Licensed Professional Counselor in Tennessee.

Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Will Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangroom. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

115. Choosing Supplements for Anxiety with Dan Chapman of Redd Remedies

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores the link between emotional health and gut health with Dan Chapman, founder of Red Remedies, emphasizing the role of high quality supplements in promoting overall well-being.

Episode Highlights:

  • The connection between emotional health and gut health, and how stress can impact digestion and overall well-being.
  • Christian perspective on stewardship over our bodies and emotional well-being
  • Understanding the role of herbs and natural remedies as part of God’s provision for health.
  • The benefits of using supplements, such as those offered by Redd Remedies, to support emotional health and overall well-being.
  • What to look for in a natural health brand and why transparency in sourcing and
    testing is crucial.

Take advantage of a 20% discount on any Redd Remedies product using code HOPE20 at checkout.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 115! I’m Carrie Bock, your host and a licensed professional counselor based in Tennessee.

Today, I’m thrilled to welcome Dan Chapman, founder of Redd Remedies. We met after the AACC conference to discuss the benefits of supplements for managing anxiety.

In this episode, we cover:

  • Gut Health and Anxiety: We revisit the link between gut health and anxiety, a topic we explored in episode 44. Dan explains how stress can impact gut health and neurotransmitter production, creating a cycle that affects both physical and emotional health.
  • The Stress Response: Dan discusses how chronic stress impacts digestion and overall health. He emphasizes the importance of rest and recuperation, as God designed us to need both work and rest.
  • Natural Remedies: We explore the benefits of herbal supplements and how they can support stress management. Dan shares how Redd Remedies creates formulas to nourish the body rather than just stimulating it.
  • Supplement Quality: Dan highlights what sets Redd Remedies apart, including their commitment to quality and purity. He compares it to finding a top-notch restaurant versus a mediocre one, underscoring the importance of ingredient quality and effective formulation.
  • Consumer Choices: Dan addresses common questions about choosing supplements, such as the difference between high-quality and inferior products and the effectiveness of various forms of supplements.

I hope this episode brings you valuable insights and practical advice as you work towards better health. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review to help others find this resource.

Check out the latest episode:

44. How Can Improving Gut Health Help Your Mood? with Maggie Roney, MS, NCC, LPC

Transcript

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD episode 115. I am your host, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. We talk about a variety of different topics on this show with a goal of reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. We’re constantly talking about the overlap between our physical health, our mental health, emotional, and spiritual health, since this is a Christian podcast.

Today on the show, I have with me Dan Chapman, who is the founder of Redd Remedies. That’s two D’s in Redd for those who are listening and not looking at our show notes yet, but we’ll put that in there for you. I’m happy to have Dan here. We connected a little bit after the AACC conference to have a chat about supplements and their benefits for anxiety.

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Carrie: Welcome to the show.

Dan: I’m grateful to be here with you, Carrie. Thanks for having me today.

Carrie: We’ve talked in the past on our show about gut health and the connection to anxiety. I interviewed, I think it was a functional medicine doctor. It’s episode 44, if anybody wants to go back and look at it: How Can Improving Gut Health Help Your Mood? We talked about neurotransmitters like serotonin and things being affected. A lot of that is my understanding is formed in your gut. Maybe for people who haven’t heard that episode, kind of give us a review of that connection between anxiety and gut health.

Dan: Absolutely. Oftentimes, we look at the health of our gut being a determining factor on what the health of your body is going to be, and that would include emotional health and all kinds of other health issues as well.

One of the things that I think is important to look at, though, it is not just the gut, but what is it, especially with emotional health issues that might cause you to have an unhealthy gut, which is therefore going to cause you to have some issues with maybe neurotransmitter production and digestive issues and other things like that.

It ends up being a little bit of a spiral and what I mean by that, is stress is going to cause your digestive system to change. What comes first, the digestive issue or the stress issue? When we have both of them, it can be a little bit of a spiral. I do want to give a little bit of hope that we’re not just going to share the bad news here today, but hopefully, some things that your listeners can do helpfully and positively to make positive changes. I do think it’s really important to understand what happens in the body. I really like to help people understand what happens when we have a stress response because we also need to recognize that God gave us a stress response. It’s not all negative, but there are changes that happen in your body physically under stress.

If we allow ourselves the time and the space to rest and to heal and to recuperate after that stress response. We’re okay. Our bodies are designed to go through that process, and we do it really throughout our lifetime. The problem happens is when we have this internal stress response that fires off over and over and over again. That’s where we need to make some changes.

One of the things that we know about stress is that during that stress response, your body literally shuts down the digestive system. You stop producing enzymes to digest food. You don’t process carbohydrates the same way. Part of that process is because during stress, your body needs to reprioritize the use of its energy.

You only have so much energy to go around, so your body is going to say, “You know what? I don’t need the digestive system to work at this moment. I’m going to put that energy into my muscles and my brain so I could respond the way I need to for survival.” If we live in that stress response, we live in a constant state of digestive enzymes not being produced the way that we need to, to digest food well, which is going to cause a host of other issues.

I like to back up not just talking about digestion, but I want to back up at some point and talk about what can we do to protect your body from the negative impact of stress.

Carrie: A lot of people are familiar with the fight, flight, or freeze. Some people have added now fawn to that, but then the opposite of that is rest and digest.

A lot of times we don’t talk about the rest and digest piece. As you’ve said, if people are in chronic states of stress, maybe due to caring for a loved one, Maybe due to past trauma, so they’re constantly getting triggered back to that time where they had to be in that fight, flight, or freeze mode, or the stresses of day to day life that people have that, whether it’s job, work, family, we live with a lot of stress, probably more than we need to.

We can lower that stress. That’s great. But sometimes we’re in situations where for a season, at least even we don’t have an option. We have to keep doing the things that we’re doing. And so this is great to talk about. Our digestive system doesn’t get that balance. It’s constantly in the fight, flight or freeze and doesn’t get that balance of the rest and digest energy.

Dan: I got my start in the natural food world because of my mother. My mom struggled with anxiety, fatigue, depression in the 1950s, a long time ago. And it was a long process for her to change her health. By changing diet and integrating herbs and nutrition, and part of the thing that I recognize growing up with my mother is that she had the mindset of always wanting to care for and serve other people, and sometimes she did not take care of herself well and when she needed to take care of herself, she almost had a sense of guilt because she wanted to be outward focused and help all of those around her. One of the things I think is just really important to recognize is we look at the fact that we are whole people. We can’t just look at stress or just look at digestion or just look at our diet or whatever the thing is.

God created us as whole people. One of the things that I love about the way that the Lord cares for us is in creation, He created night and then day. It’s been such a really remarkable thing for me to appreciate. That, you know, my view of the day typically is that, oh, it’s going to start at 6 or 7 or 8 o’clock in the morning, and that’s not true. Our day starts at night. We need to sleep and we need to rest and it’s out of that rest that we can go about having a good day.

The other reflection on that, that I think is important, at least it was impactful for me is to understand that in the creation process, Our first day as human beings, our first full day was Sabbath. So my week doesn’t start on Monday through Friday, and when I’m tired at the end of the week, I’m going to take the weekend and I’m going to rest and then recuperate from that long week. No, my week starts on Sunday where I’m going to rest. And out of that strength of rest, I can actually go about having a week.

I realized even the knowledge of that, like some of us and myself included can feel like, well, I just can’t do that. My schedule doesn’t allow for that. I don’t know how I would possibly do that. But it starts with the knowing that we have to rest first and out of that rest, we can go about living our life the way God created us to live.

Carrie: That’s such a great concept. All of these things that you’re talking about play on each other. I’m so anxious. I can’t sleep and then I’m not sleeping well and maybe I’m just grabbing something quick and not really thinking about what I’m eating or I’m eating too many carbs to try to get the energy flowing or drinking too much caffeine because I’m exhausted.

It just people get end up in this really negative cycle of their physical and emotional health. It’s like I feel terrible. But then I continue to do things that cause me to feel worse instead of helping my physical and mental health. So how do we get off of this treadmill, I guess, or negative cycle.

Dan: That’s a great question.I think this is definitely the place where We have some amazing herbs and vitamins and minerals, amino acids and things. I believe the Lord gave us because he knew, he knew from the beginning of time where we would be. I believe he gave us these tools to help our body deal with the place that we’re at.

We can start to make these little steps forward each day. We just need a little bit of improvement over the day before. We don’t need transformation by Friday. We just need a little bit of improvement and progress every day. That’s part of the reason that I started Red Remedies is I wanted to create formulas so an individual in a situation did not have to figure out, okay, what herb do I use? How much do I use? Do I put that together with that vitamin that I heard about or that mineral that I heard about? There’s so much clutter to work through. We put these formulas together in a way that allows us to get the results that we want for that individual, but also working with the body. Our formulation philosophy is we’re going to nourish your body.

We’re not going to push or stimulate it. We’re going to nourish and feed it because I believe a well fed body is going to do what the Lord created the body to do in the first place. So we are simply feeding and nourishing the body. We are using some herbs known as adaptogens. These herbs are going to protect your brain and your body from the negative impact of stress, and I will tell you these herbs are wonderful because it goes through all of the things that we just talked about earlier on this episode of the impact of stress when we live in that stress response that fires off constantly throughout the day, there is a significant negative impact physically on your body and in your brain. These herbs, they’re safe. They’ve been used for thousands of years. There’s so many studies around them. And literally the way I summarize is they protect you from that negative impact of stress.

Carrie: That’s awesome. We’ve all heard people say, okay, we’ll be talking with friends or family and they’ll say, well, have you tried this? Have you tried adding B vitamins? Or have you tried adding a probiotic? Or have you tried adding this? And next thing you know, you’ve got this table full of supplements and you’re like, I don’t know who’s doing what and if any of this is working and how is it going? So What you’re talking about, your products are blends of all of these different vitamins and herbs to help people with specific issues like sleep or digestion or brain function and anxiety so that you have a supplement that I actually started taking called at ease, which has been really great to just managing overall stress level.

I feel like for me, it’s been helpful. I got one for my husband too. I got him on nerve shield because he has a neurological condition and he has a lot of nerve pain specifically at night, more often in neuropathy issues. I said, do you think that’s helping you? And he said, yeah, definitely. And I was like, okay, well let’s keep taking it then.

I’ve noticed just two at night, less complaints from him or less issues of him being in so much pain that he was before. So that’s really a game changer for us to be able to use something natural and also not have to rely on prescriptions. If people are on medications for anxiety and OCD that are working for them, we’re all for that.

I talk with a lot of clients too who struggle because they’ve tried medication, they’ve gotten a lot of side effects, or they haven’t gotten the effectiveness that they’ve wanted. I find a lot of clients are looking for more natural remedies. So I’m glad that we’re having this conversation and talking about these things.

Dan: Definitely. That is exactly why I started Redd Remedies and put these products together. It’s because I had been working with so many people for many, many years. And it was so challenging to give them a B complex and then take these couple of herbs over here and you end up with four or five or six bottles of product to use for a single problem, and it’s difficult to take that many pills. It’s difficult to follow the instructions for what you need to do with each one of those products, whereas we put it together in a formula and it just makes it so much easier for the individual to use. And we find that a well designed formula will actually have a many times better impact, and the result that we’re looking for, then using a whole bunch of single ingredients that fill up your cabinet.

Carrie: Yes. Honestly, when I first heard about Redd Remedies and we started communicating via email and I thought, okay, like it’s a supplement company. That’s nice. There’s about a thousand plus supplement companies out there.

I wanted you to talk with us a little bit, because I’m sure, like I’ve said, people who are listening have heard, “Hey, take this vitamin or that vitamin,” and then you go to the store, there’s this whole rows of vitamins. And you’re looking at what makes this brand A different from this brand B over here.

How do I know that I’m actually getting what I’m getting? That’s one piece. How do I know that I’m getting what the bottle even says I’m getting? Second piece is like, how do I even know that my body’s really absorbing that and using that? Can you talk with us about those things as we’re trying to make consumer decisions?

Dan: Yes, that’s a great question, and we could talk for a few more days about that specifically. Let me try to give you just a little bit of an image, and then I’ll tell you just some more details about who we are. Yes, there are thousands of supplement companies out there, and it may be it’s similar to the fact that there’s also thousands and thousands of restaurants. All of us can go through our town and we know different restaurants. We know some are really, really good quality. They have got the five star and they have got the chef that went to school for how many years and he’s a master chef. And the food at that restaurant is incredible. And then there’s other restaurants that maybe not the same quality.

We know that, but it’s all food and you might even be able to get chicken at both of those restaurants or steak at both of those restaurants or a salad at all of those restaurants, but the quality is absolutely different. That is very much also true in the dietary supplement world. And so at Redd Remedies, we were a small, I consider us a boutique company.

We make only about 40 different products. Where we make a product, we’re very specialized in that area, so we have a handful of products for emotional health issues, if you will, and because we know that we need slightly different formula for the issues that different people might be experiencing. I also have on our team, a master herbalist, and that’s 1 of the things that sets us apart. While I personally have a very long history, I grew up using herbs and eating healthy foods, mostly because of my mother.

I have a long experience with that. It’s like second nature to me on my team. I have a lady who has an undergrad degree in biology and a master’s degree in herbal medicine. I will tell you that in particular is really part of what’s significantly sets us apart, and it’s no different than that 5 star restaurant with that master chef who can make chicken noodle soup, if you will, no different than maybe I’ll make chicken noodle soup with all the same ingredients, but that soup by that master chef is very different. They might use the same spices, but they know where to get them. They know when they should be harvested. They know exactly how that spice should be used and prepared in the right amount, along with the other spices they use. And that’s what happens when we put a formula together, uh, using our master herbalist.

We have lots of resources beyond that, so it’s one of the things that really separates us is the choice of the herbs that we’re using, the part of that plant that we want used, the type of the extract that we want used, and the way we want that herb prepared. You might see an herb or even a mineral on the label of 20 different herbal supplements, but that same quote unquote ingredient can be wildly different.

On each 1 of those products, just because of the source, the way it’s prepared, the type of extract. That’s 1 piece is we’re very particular about the ingredients that we put in. The other thing that we do is while I believe very much in building relationships with the places that we buy and get our herbs and our vitamins and minerals.

We definitely believe in accountability. We have a purity promise that we have designed ourselves. It’s a testing protocol. The reason we’ve designed it ourselves is I have not seen a testing standard. I’ll say in the world, that is a standard that we believe is going to do the job that’s necessary to ensure purity.

With the variety of herbs and things that you see out there, our master herbalist has put that program together, and we have a 3rd party lab that then manages that purity promise for us. If any of your listeners want more detail on purity, I don’t want to spend too much time there, but then go to our website at reddremedies.com/purity. We have a nice summary there, but also for those that really want the detail, they can download a white paper. That’s about 23 pages long. That will tell you what we do for testing and purity. I can just tell you that it’s what we do is different. No different probably than that 5 star restaurant where that chef is just really engaged in what he or she is making and cooking and preparing for their clients.

Carrie: Yes, I think that’s awesome and I appreciate the transparency there because not all brands are willing to peel back and let you know the details of some of those things. If you really want to get down into the dirt and the weeds and everything like that.

I also think it’s cool that you can become a master herbalist. Put that on your list of career goals for anybody that’s looking and interested in this area. That’s pretty awesome. Studying herbs and acquiring and how to use them and I like what you said about there’s a difference probably in terms of how you’re using the extract or dried forms of things and all of that stuff. I’m sure that makes a huge difference. It’s kike when we put fresh parsley and something versus if we use dried parsley and something, it’s going to make a difference in the end result.

When we met via Zoom a little earlier and had chatted, we got on the subject of gummy vitamins, which is super funny because when you go into the store now, it’s like, we’re all adults, but somehow there are just like tons of gummy vitamins. I was looking for, I think, maybe like a multivitamin or something at one point, and I was really struggling to find one that wasn’t a gummy vitamin. Why are these things so popular? And are we just kidding ourselves here? Are we really just eating candy and pretending we’re getting vitamins? What’s going on with these gummy vitamins.

Dan: Oh my goodness. Yes. As human beings, do we not love to just satisfy ourselves? Yes. That’s probably the best definition of a gummy. I want to do something good for myself, but yet I want to be satisfied. So, yeah, gummies have kind of taken the supplement world by storm. I hate to generalize because no doubt there are some gummy products out there that I would say absolutely have value, but I would say that is the minority.

It would be the very select few. The majority of the gummies out there, in my opinion, are probably not going to be worth the money that you spend on them. I would encourage you, if you can’t swallow a capsule or tablet, like in the multivitamin example, I encourage you to go find a good tablet chewable, not a sugar filled gummy chewable.

The reason for that is vitamins, minerals, and herbs can and do degrade. We want them to be pure and potent. And one of the things that will degrade a vitamin especially is moisture. If you think about a gummy, gummies are soft. We don’t think about gummy as having moisture in there. Most of us probably don’t squeeze a gummy and water doesn’t come out. But there is a moisture content in a gummy significantly higher than a capsule or tablet. You’re going to have some issues with stability for sure and so you want to make sure that it is a brand that knows how to do appropriate testing to ensure that what’s on that label is on the label.

I will just tell you that most brands are not testing properly. The other issue that you have with a gummy is just a physical issue of space. You can only put a very small amount of active ingredients in a gummy. Part of the issue is if you have a gummy and you’re going to chew like two of those or even three of those a day of some multivitamin, you’re really not getting much of anything.

I would encourage you to go to the produce stand and eat some lettuce and an apple or something or some blueberries, and you probably get more benefit from that. Hopefully that’s helpful. Most of what we use at Redd Remedies is a capsule. We do some tablets. We’re going to get really good stability in that and really good efficacy in that. You know, for the most part, stay away from your gummies.

Carrie: Yes, that definitely makes sense. I appreciate you sharing all of the different wisdom that you had, just talking about how we can make decisions and investigate companies. Let’s talk about a couple products specifically that you have at Redd Remedies for emotional health.

Dan: Certainly. You mentioned that you were using at ease and that certainly is one of the flagships in the emotional health area for us. AtEase is a product that people would use when the stress that they experience is more like anxious, nervous, tension type stress. I also look at AtEase as my caregiver product.

If you’re one of those listeners and you’re caring for everybody around you, AtEase will actually help kind of balance the emotions of that out because when you care for others, You’re giving a part of yourselves away in that process. So AtEase is definitely one of the products I find that most people probably listening here would definitely benefit from.

There’s another product called InJoy. And InJoy is for people whose stress really shows up as kind of depressive, low, melancholy type stress, where we just need that lift of the spirit. We also have and most of us could probably benefit from that will help us get a good restful night’s sleep. And so that’s an important one to look at.

And I don’t want to ignore brain awakening here is because all of us, especially with. Any emotional health issue, if we can feed and nourish and help the brain to function healthy and the way that it’s designed to, brain awakening would probably be a great choice for us as

Carrie: What does brain awakening do for your brain?

Dan: Yes, great question. So brain awakening is going to do three primary things. It is going to restore density to the synapse. Right? So the synapse, of course, as we know, connect our brain cells and we need healthy, dense synapse for the messages to go back and forth between our brain cells appropriately.

There’s a form of magnesium that we use because it’s those minerals or electrolytes that are going to help with electrical connectivity. And some amazing research on this specific form of magnesium to restore density to synapse. And then I also use a mushroom known as lion’s mane, which will nourish the health and the strength of that brain cell itself.

We use another herb called amla, which is an antioxidant that will protect the brain against damage, stress, plaque buildup, and so forth. We’re focused on the brain cell, the synapse, and protecting that structure to keep it healthy and strong.

Carrie: Wow. Several different angles there that you’re hitting it at. I like that.

At Hope for Anxiety and OCD, I’ve really made a decision not to just kind of, I don’t have random ads on my show, advertising luggage and random things. We’ve made a decision here to be an affiliate partner with Red Remedies. They have been so gracious to give us a coupon code, so if you put in HOPE20, you can try any of their products, not just the ones that we’ve talked about today, and get 20 percent off, and you’ll also be Helping support the podcast.

I really believe in what you’re doing there. I think that adding supplements to just an overall picture of your health, like you said, you can’t just ignore diet, exercise and sleep and then take a supplement and expect your life to be great. But in the process of working on our overall health, if these are products that could benefit you, I would encourage people to definitely try them. Thank you for being on the show and sharing with us today.

Dan: It’s been my pleasure.

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Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.

114. Vagal Nerve Stimulation for Anxiety with Dr. Hool

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie interviews Dr. Nicholas Hool about his personal struggle with anxiety and how it led to the development of VeRelief™.

Episode Highlights:

  • How vagal nerve stimulation works and its effectiveness in relieving stress and anxiety.
  • Why VeRelief is a good option for managing anxiety
  • The evolution of the VeRelief product line, from its initial design to the upcoming third generation.
  • The differences between VeRelief and other anxiety relief devices on the market.

Explore VeRelief through our affiliate link.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 114 of Christian Faith and OCD. I’m Carrie Bock, your host. Today’s episode features a unique guest, Dr. Nicholas Hool. With a PhD in biomedical engineering, Dr. Hool is here to share his personal journey with anxiety and the innovative product he developed to help others manage their anxiety.

In our conversation, Dr. Hool reveals how his experience with anxiety began in high school while pursuing a career in competitive golf. As he faced intense pressure and performance anxiety, he explored various methods to manage his stress, from sports psychology to medication. Despite some initial success with visualization techniques, he found long-term solutions challenging to maintain.

Dr. Hool’s quest for a more effective solution led him to study biomedical engineering. His research focused on the vagus nerve, a key player in regulating our stress response. He explains how vagus nerve stimulation can quickly balance the nervous system, offering a non-drug approach to anxiety relief.

Dr. Hool’s breakthrough came with the development of a handheld device that stimulates the auricular vagus nerve using gentle electrical impulses. This device aims to enhance heart rate variability, a measure of nervous system balance, helping users recover from stress and anxiety more effectively.

Tune in to discover how Dr. Hool’s innovative approach could provide relief for those struggling with anxiety and how his personal journey led to this groundbreaking solution.

Summary

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD episode 114. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and on the show, we’re all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. We have a unique interview today. Here I have with me Dr. Nicholas Hool who has a PhD in biomedical engineering, and he can explain a little bit more about that later. He’s going to talk about his own personal experience with anxiety that led him on a journey to develop a product that will help others with their anxiety as well. 

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Carrie: Welcome to the show.

Dr. Hool: Yes. Thanks for having me.

Carrie: What is your experience with anxiety being on a personal level?

Dr. Hool: I have some experience that’s going to be different than a lot of other people, but my kind of first taste of it was in high school.

I was a competitive golfer growing up, played golf since I could walk basically, but decided I wanted to really pursue golf as a career. Probably when I was, or maybe around 14 years old, I thought I want to do this. I want this to be my sport. It would be awesome to go pro someday like a lot of kids think when they play sports, they want to go pro.

And I was good. I won some tournaments, traveled the country in high school. And then for whatever reason, probably when I was 16, 17, maybe it was just suddenly like the thought of this is real. I got a couple of years left and then it’s like, it’s the real deal. Suddenly I started thinking about it more. I started contemplating the future.

I started contemplating my own performance and everyone’s watching you. Like now is the time you have to perform well. I never thought about the future before.  It was just exciting, right? When you’re a kid, you’re just having a good time, but then suddenly, I mean, I think that’s what anxiety is, right?

You’re thinking about the future in a negative way. You’re afraid, you’re worrying about things that you don’t either typically worry about, or I guess what they say is a typical person doesn’t really worry about it that much to the degree that you’re worrying about it. I just started worrying about the future all the time.

And I’m just like, “why am I worried so much about this?” It wasn’t so much the worry that affected me. I think everybody to some degree worries about their future, right? What if I fail? What if it doesn’t work out? It started manifesting as these. I want to call them panic attacks. They were just severe stress responses.

When I was on the golf course, I would be on the first tee and just heart beating out of my chest. I think it’s normal to be nervous, right? Like everyone gets nervous, but I’d been nervous before I dealt with that in every tournament. This was a lot more severe. Suddenly college coaches are watching, maybe they’re not even watching it.I’m just playing by myself. Suddenly I’m in my head. I’m going into that stress response again. I’m just like, what the heck is going on?

Carrie: It’s a lot of pressure in those sports arenas, the better you get, the more competition you encounter. All of sudden you’re playing around people that are as good as you are better. And there’s a lot going on there.

Dr. Hool: There is a lot going on, but when you think about it, you’re still just doing what you do. It’s me playing golf. That’s it. I’m not playing another person’s golf round. I’m playing my golf round. I’m the one that put all that pressure on myself by thinking about it, by worrying about it.

I think that’s what a lot of people do with just life in general. People are so worried about what if I fail or what is this person going to think of me if I say this or do that. And that causes the stress response that causes an anxiety.

Carrie: Almost like your body is responding as though there’s a bear or a lion in front of you instead of a gold tee.

Dr. Hool: Yes, exactly. And a lot of it, it’s just in your own head. I mean, it’s so hard to just get that out. It’s not like you can just say, “Oh, well, don’t think about it.” Obviously that’s not how it works. If left undealt with, it will have a major negative impact on the trajectory of your life. So for me, I kind of burned out and I didn’t pursue golf after I graduated high school.

I could have gone to play at a lot of different schools.  I was still good, but it was just knowing how good I was. At the time when I graduated, how much I was struggling, it was just like, “man, I don’t feel like this is going to work out. The guys that were going pro at the time were so good.”

And looking at that, I’m like, “man, I’m so far from that.” Even though I’m good,I  just kind of struggle with anxiety and the fear and all that just took a toll. It’s like, “yes, it’s probably best to do something different.”

Carrie: What did you try to manage it or get rid of it or deal with it?

Dr. Hool: When I was 16, I went to a sports psychologist and did the whole thing like lay on the couch, let’s go through progressive muscle relaxation. It lets get you a nice state of calm. And he would lead me through these visualizations of just being on the golf course and playing perfect golf. If I hit a bad shot, what does that look like to recover from that? And then even if I’m in a high pressure situation, trying to visualize my body responding in an ideal way compared to how I typically respond.

And just doing that over and over in the mind was sort of reprogramming my thought process. It worked incredibly well when I was practicing it. The key is that I did it for about a month, probably a few times a week, and it would take me about an hour to do this. I would lay on the couch. I go through my progressive muscle relaxation, get in that optimal state of visualization, and then I would actually do the visualization, which took time. And because it had an almost like a pretty immediate effect, I would do a visualization and I go and play golf. I’m really calm and focused. I thought like, Oh, I cured myself. I’m good. I don’t need to do this anymore. So I stopped doing it. And of course, once you stop doing it, the tendencies come back, especially if you’ve only done it a few times.

I kind of just lost discipline, I guess. I didn’t commit to it. It takes a lot of time and mental effort to do that visualization, to do that relaxation. You have to go find a quiet environment. I got to lay down. If I have racing thoughts, I have to first calm those down before I can even focus on the positive.

That’s hard to do. I was actually prescribed clonazepam for a month, which is a benzodiazepine anti-anxiety drug. Which is really powerful, and I have no idea why the guy prescribed it to me. I did not need that like it wasn’t so bad, but the protocol is you would take it about an hour or so before you go do something that is supposed to freak you out and cause a lot of anxiety, because it takes about an hour to kick in.

It worked really well to get off the first tee when I would take it an hour before taking off. But then it stayed in my system for four hours and I was sluggish. I wasn’t cognitively focused and I wasn’t performing my best mentally. And I was like, that’s not a good option. Like, I don’t want that in my system when I’m trying to play golf.

The available solutions that I tried just weren’t effective, really. They weren’t what I needed. The most effective was the visualization, but, it’s just so hard to commit to that long term because it takes so much time. And like in today’s modern world of just always on the go, who has an hour to just sit down in a quiet space and meditate and focus, even if you had the time to do it. You have to have the ability to do it.

Carrie: It’s a Yes. It’s a skill that you have to learn and train

Dr. Hool: It’s really hard. You can’t just download a meditation app and be like, “Alright, I’m going to do meditation now.” That’s not going to work. It’s a skill. It’s something you get to practice all the time. If you’re not disciplined, it’s just not really going to work out long term.

Carrie: How did this lead you into studying biomedical engineering and learning about the vagus nerve and vagus nerve stimulation?

Dr. Hool: I just had this thought of if I’m on the golf course and I’m fine, and then I fight or flight response can kick in in a matter of seconds. It just hits you out of note. I was thinking, I’m like, if it can just turn on like the flip of a switch, why can’t I turn it off like the flip of a switch doing these meditations and these progressive muscle relaxations and this breathwork stuff that wasn’t the off switch. It just wasn’t having that deep immediate effect that I needed. Neither were drugs, right? Drugs still take an hour to kick in. Those don’t even have very solid effects, but in those moments, it’s not gonna have any effect on me. I thought, let’s go study that response.

There’s going to be something out there that can shut it off fast. I always liked math and engineering, so I chose biomedical engineering because I literally just wanted to study that what is happening in your body physically when that fight or flight response flips on and ultimately to understand it. So I could turn it off.  I just turn it off on command. It was 8 straight years of biomedical engineering went into undergrad. So for four years, I learned all the basics, and then in my PhD program, that’s where I got really specific and started doing actual research with different technologies and ultimately arrived at the one we have today.

Carrie: Tell me about the vagus nerve and its role in that fight, flight, or freeze response. I was doing a little bit of mild Googling on the vagus nerve, and it turns out that the term vagus is Latin for wandering, which I found interesting. So this is a nerve that wanders in our body.

Dr. Hool: The vagus nerve, it’s one of the 12 cranial nerves in the body. It’s called the wandering nerve because it wanders throughout your entire upper body. It’s the largest and the longest of your cranial nerves. It plays a role in essentially maintaining what’s called homeostasis, keeping your body and your nervous system in a state of balance. There’s a lot of things that it covers, right?

It helps digestion. It helps with heart-related issues, cardiovascular things. It helps with mental health. It just keeps your overall nervous system in a state of balance. And the nervous system is made up of two separate components. You have the sympathetic nervous system, and the parasympathetic. The sympathetic is your fight or flight response.

When your sympathetic is active, it sends a signal to your body saying it’s time to speed up and to tense up. That’s where you get that racing heart rate. Your hands are jittery. Blood pressure might go up. Breathing rate goes up. You’re familiar with it, right? It’s that fight or flight response. Not comfortable to be in unless you’re actually running for your life.

Carrie: And then it’s helpful and purposeful and useful at that point.

Dr. Hool: Parasympathetic is the opposite. It’s the rest and digest. It’s what helps you stay calm after you eat a nice big meal. Usually, you’re really sluggish, and you don’t want to move around because you’ve eaten a meal.

That’s the rest and digest state. Your body’s going into a state of just chill so that you can digest your food. You can recover from stress. You can rest. Those states are always fluctuating all the time, no matter what. And so what? The vagus nerve’s main job, it basically shifts you out of fight or flight.

So when your fight or flight is really active, the vagus nerve’s job is to help bring that down to rebalance the nervous system. In my research, I learned that it’s not so much that the vagus nerve increases parasympathetic, but instead, it decreases the sympathetic, and so that’s how it balances. That’s why it’s also really good if you’re in a fight or flight state where you’re having an anxiety attack or panic or just stress stimulating your vagus nerve is an almost instant way to bring that stress response down because that’s its main job. And I learned that in research, just reading all these research papers, learning about the vagus nerve. And to me, it was like, that’s what I needed right there. If I had something that could just stimulate my vagus nerve on the golf course, It would pull me out of that response, and I could focus again.

I could be calm and perform. I can fall asleep finally, or I’ll be less irritable around my loved ones after I’m stressed out or something that kind of became what I committed to was. Let’s dive into vagal nerve stimulation and see if we could develop this out for the high performing individuals like the athletes, but really the everyday person that just wants something safe, nondrug, and effective to calm them down quickly.

Carrie: Can you tell us a little bit more about how the product that you have is used for vagal nerve stimulation?

Dr. Hool: We developed a little handheld device. This is kind of what it looks like if people are watching the video, but what it is is it uses electricity, so gentle electrical impulses to directly activate a small branch of the nerve found just under your ear.

There’s two areas you can target the vagus nerve noninvasively.  That’s what’s called the auricular vagus nerve, which is around the ear, and then you have the cervical vagus nerve, which is on the front side of the neck. The cervical region of the vagus nerve is a little deeper in the neck, and it’s close to baroreceptors, which control blood pressure, and it also has direct projections to your heart.

It’s a higher risk location to stimulate because it can cause a sudden drop in heart rate and the pressure applied can also cause a sudden drop in blood pressure, which, if you deal with any type of heart condition or have a blood pressure condition, it can be dangerous to do that, whereas auricular is farther away from those regions. So there’s no risk in dropping blood pressure, and there’s no direct projections to the heart with the auricular. There’s no heart-related side effect. That was my first kind of focus was safety first. We know the vagus nerve can have this effect, but we need it to be safe. So, auricular was the obvious choice.

Now, the other benefit that we learned later in research was when you stimulate the auricular vagus nerve with electricity, You see an increase in, it’s called heart rate variability. Heart rate variability is just a way to measure your heart rate in such a way that it reveals the state of your nervous system.Heart rate is just measuring how many beats per minute your heart rate is beating at. Heart rate variability is a measure of the fluctuation of your heart rate over time. So, when you have a large fluctuation in your heart rate, that’s a good thing because it means your body is in a state where it can adapt to changes very easily, but if your heart rate is not changing over time, it’s like kind of stuck in the same heart rate over some period of time. That means your body’s not capable of adapting to change. If you go into that fight or flight state, you typically stay there for a long time. That’s why you can’t recover. If you have a low heart rate variability, what a regular vagal nerve stim does is literally in 60 seconds, we can see, we could double your heart rate variability, depending on what it is when you first start. That’s just an indicator that we’re shifting you out of that fight or flight state, literally within seconds versus cervical. We don’t see the same effects of heart rate variability.

Carrie: If you have a low heart rate variability, does that mean that you usually have a more elevated heart rate? You’re more anxious and it stays at that higher heart rate?

Dr. Hool: Not necessarily. If you think about a true fight or flight response, you’re walking in the woods and suddenly you see a bear start chasing you. Your heart rate is going to go up, but it’s going to stay up. It’s not going to come down and then go back up. It’s going to stay there. So the variability is tiny when your heart rate is beating really fast.

When you’re just chilling at home on the couch watching TV, if you monitor your heart rate, you’ll see that it might be 60, and then it might go up to 70, maybe 80, and then it might come back down to 60, and it’s going to do that over time. That’s just how it is, but if you’re chilling on the couch and your heart rate is just stuck at like 70, that’s not good. That means your nervous system is kind of in that fight or flight state, even though your heart rate may not be high. The variability is really low, which suggests your nervous system is not balanced. You’re not in a healthy state. Beyond just being stressed and anxious, an imbalanced nervous system affects your ability to heal from other conditions, from sickness.

You don’t digest things properly. You can’t recover if you have an injury. And so heart rate variability is just a great way to quickly take a snapshot of, “Is my body in a rest and digest state or am I in a state where it’s being resistant to healing and I’m more prone to getting stressed and anxious?”

Well, we’ve been able to demonstrate on almost all of our step patients and research was when you stimulate the auricular vagus nerve, you see an instant increase in the H.R V., which is why we always get people saying the device helps them fall asleep faster. They recover from a stressful experience faster.

We have a lot of patients with PTSD and panic disorder that use our product, pull them out of that panic attack. And then when used as part of a daily routine, it definitely helps decrease the effects of anxiety. And I say the effects of anxiety because it’s not going to eliminate your worries. If you’re someone who’s a lot and you’re always afraid of the future, you’re contemplating negative thoughts, it’s not going to drive those away.

However, it will lessen the impact on your body that those negative thoughts have, which is still a good thing for things like general anxiety. I highly recommend people learn meditation like the right way, but you can use verily to accelerate your meditation sessions because the problem that I was having was it takes me 30 minutes just to calm my mind, calm my body before I can actually do a real meditation. With the very late device, it does it. It does all the work for you. It’s literally pulling my body out of fight or flight and putting it into that ideal meditative state in a matter of minutes. And now I can meditate again. We have a lot of psychologists and counselors who will sit with their patients in a session. “Here use this for the first five minutes of our session, and then I’ll walk you through our counseling, and we’ll get to the core issue of your anxiety.” It’s a great supplement or something like that.

Carrie: I liked what you talk about in terms of chronic health conditions and our body having difficulty healing.

If our nervous system is out of balance, there are a lot of people out there that they’ve been to several doctors and the doctors are saying, “I don’t know how to help you anymore,” or “we’re not really sure where this is coming from.” Yes, we can say that you’re having these symptoms. I think there’s a lot that goes on in a day-to-day in our nervous system that we aren’t necessarily always cued into or aware of.

When people are having heightened levels of anxiety, sometimes they’re recognizing that because it’s coming in the form of an anxiety attack or a panic attack. Sometimes they’re not aware of that because they’re just living at a state of chronic stress and it’s now taking a toll and they’re having things like headaches or digestive issues or other chronic pain or health conditions.

I think that’s important for people to recognize that mental health piece in there. I like what you said about utilizing this to help wind down for sleep. You and I got connected some time ago, and you guys actually sent me a Verilief device, and when I started using it was before I went to bed, kind of to help, like, wind down my mind, like wind down my body.

Sometimes it can be hard depending on what you’re doing before you try to go to sleep to get yourself to a more wound down state. But I’ve also used it if I have a really difficult session with a client or we’ve just processed some really hard trauma and maybe that’s something that I still feel like I’m carrying around with me.

It’s nice for me to be able to release that stress and take those few minutes to just be able to breathe and let go. And so I have found it helpful and have recommended it to some of my clients. Now, I know that you guys are doing pre-orders for the third generation V Relief. So can you tell us about some of the changes that you’ve made over time to kind of tweak and make perfections to the product?

Dr. Hool: We’re a team of engineers and designers, core, which just means we are obsessed with building the best product. It hurts us to launch something that we’re like, “Oh, we can build something better.” Although we still have to ship a product. We can’t just sit in our lab all day and just keep making stuff. But the first product we launched was just a handheld device.

I want to say maybe late 2021, early 2022. That was just through word of mouth and connections we had with local doctors, but the usability of it was not great. It was a little bit big and bulky before we were ready to really launch this thing. Let’s redesign it. Let’s make it smaller.

We’re taking pre-orders for that. We weren’t expecting to take pre-orders this early, just because our gen twos sold out way faster than we thought they would over Christmas. We thought we’d have an easy transition into the next gen. But people are rushing to buy this because they’re starting to realize like, “Oh, man, this thing is legit.”

There’s not a lot of great options out there to take care of your nervous system, right? There are these really expensive machines that are good, but not affordable. And then the low-cost ones are ineffective. You’re just kind of getting these knockoff products that don’t have any major impact on your nervous system. It’s definitely a powerful, effective product. And for the price point, it’s kind of unbeatable.

Carrie: Yes. That’s awesome. You guys have it discounted right now for the presale and you’re expecting to ship around April. Is that right?

Dr. Hool: Yes, so right now we’re offering a $100 discount for those who pre-order. That discount will start to be reduced as we get closer to shipping.

We want to reward customers who wait the longest with the best deal, but yes, for now, you can just get it and save $100 to get it for $299 as opposed to $399. They’re being made right now, about 50 percent of the batch is complete. We just have to wait on some other manufacturing things to come through, but yes, they’re coming.

Carrie: This is one of the things I think that impressed me the most about your company and caused me to become an affiliate was your 60-day money-back guarantee. Tell us about that.

Dr. Hool: Basically, every product that we looked into for calming people down, helping the nervous system, they’re giving these 21 to 30-day warranties or money-back guarantees. I’m like, “That’s so small”. If you don’t have time to use it in every situation, right? People are traveling or doing stuff, so  we give people 60 days just because we know 30 days is not enough. Use it for two whole months. If you don’t get the improvements at some point within two months, probably not going to have an impact.

It’s like you’ve got plenty of time to try it. We talk to everybody that reaches out to us. If they have any challenges, any help at all with understanding how to apply this to their own lives. We’ll literally chat with you. We’ll say, tell us about your routine. What do you do currently? What’s your day-to-day look like? We’ll create protocols for you. We recommend using it. Combine it with this modality or that supplement and you’re going to see great results. We’re here to really make sure that this works for people and it does, right? As long as you just don’t give up trying, like we’ll make it work for you.

Everybody has a vagus nerve. Every vagus nerve responds to stimulation. You just have to work with it a little and get a feel for how to optimize it for each individual. And we work with people to do that.

Carrie: Also I wanted to mention to you when you’re talking about the electrical stimulation, it’s not like you’re getting zapped. For me, it feels like a little vibrating, like tingly feeling near your ear, so it’s not painful or anything of that nature if you’re using it properly. 

Dr. Hool: That was our big engineering feature that we came up with. At the time we were designing them, all these electrical stimulators were very sharp. For the auricular, there were all these ear clip electrodes and tiny little surface area electrodes that just shock your ears. It’s so uncomfortable. And we’re like, “We have to make it feel good.” We tested a bunch of different materials. I mean, we shot ourselves all day long, trying to find something that was comfortable, and we found a really good mixture of materials. We use a certain ingredient that kind of hydrates your skin, so when you’re using it, it’s actually got a skin hydration component to it, which is what makes it a lot more comfortable than a standard electrode that doesn’t have those properties.

Carrie: The high cost of being an entrepreneur, lots of electrical shocks to ear.

Dr. Hool: Yes, all kinds of stuff. I’m not as bold as my electrical engineers. He has done things. Hey, you have some scars that are going to last forever. That’s like, “Dude, you’re crazy, man.” Those people, they love doing stuff. 

Carrie: Gotcha. Are you familiar with the Apollo device?

Dr. Hool: Yes, very familiar. I see advertisements for it on Facebook. 

Carrie: I really know about zero about it, and I didn’t know if you wanted to say anything about that or just leave that out of it, but I’m curious, what does it do compared to what VeriLief does?

Dr. Hool: It’s a different value that they’re delivering. What Apollo does, at least what their technology does, skin vibration, it’s more of a mild calming effect for a long time. Think of it like an SSRI. An SSRI is something you take every day, has a long, mild effect, keeping you calm, but it’s not like a rescue drug. 

If you’re in the middle of a stress response, you don’t take an SSRI, you take a Benzodiazepine. The Benzos are strong. We’re going to get to it, calm you down fast, even though those still take time to kick in. That’s really the difference. 

Apollo is something you wear kind of all day, and if you’re not someone who has a lot of anxiety attacks, probably a fine thing, but if you’re someone who gets those moments where your body goes into that fight or flight state, VeRelief is that’s what it was designed for, but you can use both. That is the benefit of technology is there’s no side effects. You can stack as many as you can and just enhance the effect. I tell people that all the time. Wear your Apollo and do this at the same time.

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for sharing this information with us. I hope it’s valuable to some of our listeners. I know that I talk to all kinds of people all the time who are just looking for different options to help them manage their anxiety. Maybe they’ve tried medication or they’ve tried certain meditations, they’ve tried a variety of stuff, and they just feel like they’re not getting the relief that they’re wanting or they’re needing something, like you said, in the moment right before they go perform or speak in front of people, or even if it’s just a presentation to a few people at work.

If that really makes you nervous and this is something that’s going to help you before those types of situations.  If going into your job makes you anxious, I mean, there’s just so many different applications for this product. We’re going to put our affiliate link in the show notes for everybody and make sure that you can check out the product and take advantage of trying it out and get in the full 60 days. Hopefully you’ll love it. For some reason you don’t, you can contact the staff and they’ll help you troubleshoot with that.

Dr. Hool: And we’ll troubleshoot too. And. If it really, really doesn’t work, we do refunds as well. One thing to note is this is kind of a newer space. There’s not a lot of products like this on the market. There’s definitely a temptation for people to want to go to Amazon or buy some Chinese knockoff that is like an ear clip for 30 bucks. But those things will do nothing. They have no impact on your nervous system, unless you’re someone who’s extremely chronically imbalanced. It might have some effect, but our product is the real deal.

We spent years developing this. We tested everything out there. This thing is by far the most effective out of any other auricular vagal nerve stem you can try. So it’s worth the wait. Definitely worth it. And with that 60-day money-back guarantee, it’s as low risk as possible.

Carrie: Well, thank you so much and we’ll be in touch.

Dr. Hool: Thank you, Carrie. I appreciate the time.

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Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.