Skip to main content

Author: Carrie Bock

Carrie Bock is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Smyrna, TN who helps people get to a deeper level of healing without compromising their faith. She specializes in working with Christians struggling with OCD who have also experienced childhood trauma, providing intensive therapy for individuals who want to heal at a faster pace than traditional therapy.

83. The Power of Gratitude and What I am Thankful For

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode.

In today’s episode, Carrie explores the transformative power of gratitude and shares personal reflections on what it means to be thankful, even during challenging times.

Episode Highlights:

  • How practicing gratitude can enhance your emotional well-being, reduce anxiety, and improve overall happiness.
  • Key scriptures that emphasize the importance of being thankful in all circumstances.
  • Simple yet effective strategies for incorporating gratitude into your daily routine.

Episode Summary:

In today’s episode, I’m sharing the power of gratitude and the things I’m thankful for during this challenging season. Reflecting on gratitude can help us recognize our blessings, even when times are tough.

Biblical Teachings on Gratitude
The Bible encourages us to be thankful. 1 Thessalonians 5:18 says, “Give thanks in all circumstances.” A life-changing verse for me is James 1:17: “Every good and perfect gift is from above.” This taught me to appreciate even the little things.

Philippians 4 reminds us that finding joy in the Lord can help reduce anxiety.

Finding Gratitude in Challenges
We often face societal pressures that make us feel we need more. Focusing on what we already have can bring peace. Gratitude wasn’t easy for me growing up, but it became a vital tool during tough times.

The Benefits of Gratitude
Practicing gratitude improves both mental and physical health. It boosts happiness, enhances sleep quality, and helps us stay present, free from past regrets and future worries.

Simple Ways to Practice Gratitude
Consider keeping a gratitude journal. I suggest the Five Minute Journal to jot down things you’re thankful for each day. Being specific—like noting a kind gesture—makes a big difference.

My Gratitude List
I’m grateful for my husband, Steve. Despite facing balance issues, his positive outlook inspires me. We recently celebrated good news about his vision, allowing him to enjoy life with our daughter.

Let’s embrace gratitude together! Join me in reflecting on what you’re thankful for, even in challenging times.

Transcript

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD episode 83. Today on the show, we are talking about the power of gratitude and some things that I am thankful for in this season. It’s been a unique season to be writing a list of things that I’m thankful for because we’re definitely going through some challenges right now, but I thought that working through this with you might kind of help you think through some things that you are thankful for as well as we go along the process.

Biblical Teachings on Gratitude and Thankfulness

You can think of people in situations, positive things that are going on in your life right now. Throughout the Bible we are told to be thankful and I just wanted to go over a few verses with you that express this. Of course, there’s many that we could cover together obviously, but I just picked out a few that I thought would be good. 1 Thessalonians 5: 18 says, “Give thanks In all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” All circumstances. It’s not always easy to be thankful. That is a tough one, but we’ll talk about that a little bit more in-depth later.

This next verse literally changed my life. I’ve probably talked about this on the podcast before. In fact, I know I have is James1:17. “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” This first changed my life because I read it while I was going through my divorce in very dark time of my life, and I realized that if there was anything good in my life that God put it there, and it just caused me to be so thankful and really just pour out a lot of gratitude towards God in prayer for all the little things I had to be intentional in that time to be thankful and to find those things that were good in my life.

When you’re intentional and you look for things to be thankful for, you will find them. Where most of us are pretty familiar with another scripture passage in Philippians 4 that talks about don’t be anxious about anything. Oftentimes we don’t rewind a couple verses before where it says, “Rejoice in the Lord. Always. Again, I will say rejoice.” So when they repeat things in the Bible, it’s for emphasis purposes. When you’re reading something, it doesn’t have a tone of voice to it, but if you repeat it, it’s like, “Oh, hey, that’s important.” This sense of like finding joy in the Lord. That is can help us with our anxiety and a lot of times we don’t take that into consideration. I talked about this on a blog post, I believe a while back that’s on our website and maybe my assistant can link that to in our show notes for you guys. In Hebrews 13: 15, it says, “Through him, then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God. That is the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.”

Sometimes praising God does feel like a sacrifice. Of course, in the biblical times in the Old Testament, people actually did like provide physical sacrifices For us, it’s a sacrifice of our time. It’s a sacrifice of our energy, and it’s a sacrifice sometimes of laying down things that we. For things that God wants, but we want to be a grateful people, which is hard in our society because advertising constantly tells you about what you don’t have, and they try to tell you what you should want and need.
We are inundated with advertisements, whether from the internet, from tv, from media that are constantly telling us, you know, “You need this car because it’s gonna make you feel like a million dollars,” or You need this product because it’s gonna help you get a member of the opposite sex,” whatever the case is.

Finding Gratitude in Challenging Circumstances

So we’re constantly put in this state of like, “Oh, I don’t have that.” Or like, “Oh, I want that.” And it is not so healthy for us, and we have to shift gears out of that. To really look around us and be thankful for the blessings that God has given us the simple things maybe each and every day, and I know that for me, I never really used to be a thankful person.

I struggled a lot with that since I was a child. Really just with this the glass half empty instead of half full mindset. My parents, I would be kind of like grumbling and complainy and they would say, “Carrie, tell us something you’re thankful for. ” And when you’re grumbling as a child, that is not exactly when you want to be thankful.

Gratitude and its Positive Impact on Mental and Physical Well-being

I do appreciate that they tried, but I don’t think it really helped me become a thankful person. What probably helped me the most were those dark times in my life and having use gratitude to pull myself out of them. I have told you what the scripture said about being thankful in gratitude, but also wanted to tell you what the psychology says about it, which shouldn’t surprise you, but here we go. “People who practice gratitude feel better physically and emotionally.” That’s awesome. They’re happier, they have better immune function. Whoa! That just blows my mind like our body works better in terms of our immunity.

If we are practicing gratitude, they sleep better, they have more ability to be in the moment and cope with life is really where mindfulness comes in. This sense of just being in the present moment. Gratitude is a present-moment activity. You can’t be stuck in past regret or be worried about the future and be grateful at the same time. Those two things can’t coexist inside your system.

Incorporating Gratitude into Daily Life

So how can we practice gratitude? I used to have this, I think it’s called the Five Minute Journal, something like that.
And you do maybe five minutes in the morning or five minutes in the evening. I can’t remember. But I ask you the same exact questions every day, and one of the questions it asks you is, I believe, like three things you’re thankful for, which is great, but I think it gets a little mundane after a while because you tend to kind of think about some of the same things, right? Like if somebody were to ask you, what are you grateful for? Like, “Okay, well I’m grateful for this person in my life, or I’m grateful for my child. I’m grateful for waking up today.” You know, it’s a new day and it’s hard to get specific. So I would encourage you if you struggle with gratitude, I’ll just tell you some things that I did that helped me.

I had a little one of those pocket calendars from like the dollar store. It’s not even the dollar store anymore. That’s sad. But anyway, I had one of those pocket calendars I would write on each day. Something specific about that day that maybe had happened that I was thankful for, or maybe that I noticed, like, “okay, I was thankful today that I got to smell some flowers outside and they smelled really good.” Or I’m thankful that you know, I got gift today from somebody, it was just a card, them telling me they cared about me, whatever the case is, and a lot of times I could go back and read those and you forget, you know, if you don’t write something down, a lot of times you forget that some of those things have even occurred.

It’s just a really great activity as a practice and it doesn’t take very long at all like two minutes to write something down on the calendar. I do think it’s important to be very specific. In your gratitude practice, even if it’s not about that day, just being in prayer and meditation of, “Okay, I am thankful for these very specific things.”

Personal Examples of Thankfulness and God’s Provision

So I thought I would go through some of that for you guys of what I’m thankful for in my life. Maybe to give you examples, I am specifically really thankful for my husband. You guys have heard Steve on the podcast before. If you’ve been around for a little while, if you’ve listened to any of. Marriage episodes together, he has an incredibly positive attitude, even though he’s going through some intense physical balance challenges right now. He got in what’s called vestibular therapy, which is for balance walking, those types of things. It’s a very specific type of physical therapy, and I really see how hard he works, how much effort he puts towards that, and his therapist tells him, “You know, a lot of people with your condition, they just sit down and they stop working and if you don’t use it, you’ll lose it. Those types of things. So I really see how he will tell other people, a lot of times if they feel bad or say, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that.

Oftentimes people will say, everyone goes through something and this is my something that I have, and you know, it’s.
He has this incredible gift and ability that he doesn’t worry about things. I wish he could give me that. I don’t know how he does that, but he just somehow he knows or has his just like internal confidence compass that it, it’s like everything’s gonna be okay. I’m like, can I get some of that? That is a gift.

Steve is also has a great heart just desiring to help other people. He writes me little encouraging notes around the house. A big thing that he and I are thankful for is that he went back for. His follow-up after a year of working with his eye specialist and he hasn’t had changes in vision, so we are so thankful for that, even though he’s had these other balance challenges.
I think at least I lived in fear for a little while that he was going to go blind, and so I’m just thankful that he’s not blind and he’s able to see his daughter grow up and at this point he’s not in a wheelchair. He’s still able to walk and still able to get around and have some levels of I. We are thankful for that every day that he has that ability. We have been told recently that it’s not really if you’re in a wheelchair, it’s more of when you’re in a wheelchair, but nobody can tell you if that is 10 years down the road or two years down the road, or six months down the road, which is hard for life cleaning.

Of course, I am also incredibly thankful for my daughter Faith. She just has this smile that lights up the entire room when she wakes up in a good mood. You love it. And she doesn’t always wake up in a good mood, cuz you know, a lot of times she’s hungry, but sometimes she wakes up from a nap or after she’s, you know, gone back to sleep and woken up and just smile at you like, she’s so happy to see you. That’s the best thing that happened to her day, which is really great. She is pretty easy baby, like pretty easy going and she just adapts. You know, I have to take her. We go to various appointments and things for Steve, and a lot of times I will take her and stroll her around while he’s in an appointment or something of that nature, and she just kind of goes with the flow. She sleeps really well in the car, so thankful for that because if she didn’t sleep well in the car, or wasn’t able to get her naps in that way, some days, that would be really tough on her.

I think one of the favorite things, blessings, in terms of her right now is just being able to hold her. She’s going to sleep and rock her, and just kind of like that sense of gentle trust that she has in us right now. I know that one day she’s gonna get older and not wanna cuddle up to me, so I’m trying to enjoy all the cuddles while I can.

We are very thankful that we have a house to live and that’s in good shape. We have been praying about a one-storey house and it looks like we may be able to move into one pretty soon, possibly in January. It’s kind of a still a possibility, not a for sure thing, but so thankful for that, that God seems to be answering that prayer. If for some reason that doesn’t work out, I know that he will provide something else for us that was really going to just take a lot of pressure and stress off of us with all of the balance conditions that Steve’s having. Our driveway is crazy and we have stairs and then some more stairs when you get into our house. It’s just people are kinda like, “Why don’t you build a ramp?” And I’m like, “It’s not that easy.” I appreciate those people that have wanted to do that for us. However, we really just need to get into one storey with some flat land and it looks like God is opening up that door and providing that for us, and also will be able to still be, you know, local. We’re not moving super far or anything like that, so that’s nice.

I am thankful for my car. Let me tell you this, I got the opportunity to drive this, let’s call it a small SUV. It was a 2002 and we drove it to Florida for a family funeral and had to bring some stuff back with us and so forth. So that was why we didn’t choose not to fly for that one, and I so enjoyed driving this car. It does all the things that like my car does not do because my car is a 2013. However, I will tell you that I’m so thankful that our car is paid off. I joke around that it’s the only car I know of that has a walker and a baby stroller in it, and we really have to kind of cram stuff in there. It’s not a big car and so enjoyed driving that, that small SUV because we just had room for things. So thankful for our car and that God has provided us a way to get to Steve, to his medical appointments and Faith when she has appointments and checkups and things that we can take her there, that we can get to the grocery store, other things. So I’m really thankful that our car is running well and that it’s paid off.
It’s not the newest thing in the world, but it gets us from point A to point B, and we’re thankful for that for sure.

I’m super thankful for God’s financial provision in this season. We’ve had a lot of medical bills, obviously for everything that’s going on with Steve, and I wanna tell you a quick story because this is just a story of faith. I want to write down for my daughter to let her know that God hears and God understands and he knows like exactly what we need. I had an unexpected expense come up recently that I really, you know, did not know I was gonna be hit. And it was $300. I was like, Okay. You know, trying to think through where is this $300 gonna come from, so forth. So I just, I prayed to God and I said, “You knew that this $300 bill was gonna come. I didn’t know it was gonna come. And so, because you knew it was gonna come, I just believed that they’re gonna get the $300 and I don’t know. Like how we’re gonna get it. I don’t know where it’s gonna come from.: I just pray and I believe that you’re gonna provide it for us because this is something that we really need.
And no lie, literally the next day we get a card that has a hundred dollars in it. We get another card that has $200 in it. Completely was not expecting that, and it was just like God showing me like, :Yes, I’m taking care of you. I know exactly what you need. I’ve got you.” God will do that for you.

That’s not just like a God does that for care thing. God will originally supply all your needs according to his glorious riches and Christ Jesus. Philippians, I believe that’s 4:19 tells us, and that’s just something that I have repeated to myself over and over. You know, as we get these different medical bills and therapies and things like that, I’m like, You know, God will supply all my needs. God will supply all my needs. It just almost has become like this prayer that I have repeated and has helped me really calm during those seasons where I get anxious about bills. I am super thankful for our church in this season.

Something happened to us and I actually asked Steve if he wanted to talk about this on our marriage episode, and I don’t think that he wanted to talk about it, but I feel like it’s important and it’s important to talk about for the Thanksgiving episode, God uprooted us from a church, a place that I had been in for several years. Steve had been in since we were married, and I believe that God uprooted us because he wanted to plant us somewhere else. But I will say that there was a time period in between where we were a bit lost, going through some hard things that were going on in the family. And didn’t really have support like it was just rough, trying to kind of reach out to people even emotionally and say, “Will you pray with us? We have this and this and this going on in our families.” And it was just, it was tough. We weren’t getting the support and even just the prayer support that we needed in that season. And I’m telling you that God did what only he can do. He planted us in a completely new church that someone had invited us to. We knew the moment we walked in the door that this is exactly where we’re supposed to be. This is what we have wanted for months, um, for a long time. And it was around the time where Steve got his diagnosis shortly after we started going there. And there’s just been this outpouring of love of people that barely know us, really. I mean, that brought us over meals that have taken, driven him to appointments that have just, you know, brought us things that we needed. Absolutely incredible. Totally blown us away. We feel very undeserving but just incredibly grateful that God has put us in this place to be really wrapped around and loved by these people in a big way.

We have a great small group through that church as well, and it’s just been good positive relationships for us in this season. And with that, I will say that I am thankful, even though it’s been hard this year. I am thankful for my friendships.
I’m thankful for the people that God kept in my life and I’m thankful for the people that have walked away, which may sound super weird because it’s definitely not comfortable. It’s actually pretty painful when people walk away from your life or when you know you, you have a friend and they’re just kind of, they’re disconnected and not really there for you.
That can be super challenging. However, I think what I’ve learned over the year is that God brings different people into our lives for different seasons, and some people are meant to go that one or two miles with us, and some people are meant to go that those 10 miles or 10 years with us. And not everybody is meant to go that far with you, but it’s definitely a blessing when you have one of those longer-term relationships.

I’m thankful that the people in my life right now are people who are really invested in mine and Steve’s wellbeing, and that I feel incredibly thankful and blessed about. I am thankful for going through some of these challenging things recently because it has made me be a stronger person and draw me closer to God.

When Steve first got diagnosed, I remember thinking like, I don’t have the prayer life for this. I don’t have the dependence on God that I need in my life to get through this. So that has been something that I have been actively cultivating. Definitely still in process. But I know that even though it’s hard, each day brings me closer and closer to God and to knowing who he is and understanding his purposes for our life.

And this year, how do I explain this one? Because I am not thankful that someone died, but I had a close family member pass away this year. It’s not something that I’m ready to talk about in-depth, but I believe that I will at some point in the podcast because I think it’s important to share that story with you and my process of that grief. The piece that I’m thankful for though is not that I lost a family member. I am thankful that that family member is in heaven. I’m very thankful that they’re no longer suffering because they were suffering with cancer really badly, and I’m thankful that God in his sovereignty at the right time, took them home and didn’t allow them to suffer than they already did because it was just, it was a lot. And I’m thankful that even though that family member isn’t here with me anymore, that I really feel still very connected with them. And I feel like I know kind of what they would say to me in different scenarios, in different situations in my life.

So I’m thankful that even though I’ve lost that family member, I still feel close to them. It’s very bizarre because I haven’t ever had this experience before with anyone else that I’ve lost. I think it’s because I was not as close to other family members that I have lost before, but since I was very close to this individual, it’s allowed me to still feel very connected or having some kind of sense of presence to them. And that’s the only way that I can explain it. I don’t really know what it means other than maybe we are somehow connected in on a spiritual level. I don’t know.

So that’s the roundup on what I am thankful and grateful for. I hope that it helped you make your own list or helped you think about how you can incorporate gratitude into your own practice, spiritually and emotionally which will also help you physically as we learned earlier.

It’s so incredible how God has created our systems to interconnect emotionally, physically, and spiritually. It’s just so intertwined and it makes so much sense when we read the Bible and then we look at these psychological studies. They’re not in contradiction to each other, right?

The Bible says, Give thanks and then the studies say, “Hey, giving thanks causes all of these positive health benefits.” It’s just so cool when we look at things like that. I think just confirmation of things that we know to be true. We’ve got one more episode this year on how to set a boundary, and it’s a good one.

I asked our guests to go through some very specific scenarios with us on what she would say and how she would handle the situations that I brought up. I think it’s great, and it may help some of you as you’re going into the Christmas season or spending more time with family. We’re only putting out one episode in December to take a little bit of a break for Christmas and end of the year. We will definitely be back in January with some question-and-answer episodes on anxiety and then on OCD. So please send us your burning questions that you have either for the Q and A anxiety episode or the Q and A OCD episode. We would love to feature your question on the air. You may send those via our website at hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

As always, thank you so much for listening.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

82. Trauma-Informed Ministry with Suzanne Burns

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode.

Suzanne Burns, founder and executive director of  Foundation House Ministries and BeCharityWise. Today on the show, she will share with us about creating a trauma-informed ministry. 

Episode Highlights:

  • How Suzanne started her work with mothers in crisis situations
  • What led her to do some more research about trauma-informed
  • How to effectively minister to people
  • Reframing the role of ministry
  • More about BeCharityWise 

Episode Summary:

In Episode 82 of Christian Faith and OCD, I dive into the topic of trauma-informed ministry with Suzanne Burns. As the founder and executive director of a maternity home and crisis program for mothers, Suzanne has dedicated years to helping women facing challenging situations such as coming out of jail, rehab, or homelessness. Her work focuses on guiding these women toward sustainable stability and reunification with their families.

Suzanne’s work is deeply personal, inspired by her own experience with a crisis pregnancy and years of single motherhood. After volunteering at a pregnancy center, she saw the need for more support, leading her to open a maternity home in 2014.

She shares the challenges faced early on, such as dealing with trauma-related behaviors. A key turning point was learning about trauma’s physical and behavioral effects, which helped them transform their approach. By combining trauma awareness with understanding poverty and addiction, they now have a 97% success rate in helping women maintain stability.

We also explore how childhood trauma (as studied in the ACEs research) links to long-term health issues, highlighting the importance of addressing trauma for lasting change.

Tune in to learn more about how trauma-informed ministry can make a real difference.

Related Resources:

BeCharityWise

Foundation House Ministries

More Episodes to Listen to:

107. Impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACES) with Diana Rice, LMHC, CIMHP, CTP, QS

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 82. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and if you’re new to our show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. Today on the show, I’ll be talking with Suzanne Burns about creating a trauma-informed ministry.

I feel like this is so important people in the church to understand and know about, and we’ve had other episodes about helping people with anxiety in the church. So I’m excited about this episode as well. Suzanne, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Suzanne: Yes, I am the founder and executive director of a maternity home, residential and non-residential program for mothers in crisis.

We serve women coming out of jail, out of rehab, pregnant, and a. Sometimes they’ve lost custody or are working towards reunification, whether that’s with family members or with the state. And so we’re part of that process towards getting them to a place of being able to build sustainable stability. And out of what we’ve learned through doing that for the last eight years, we’ve also launched a kind of a side to other churches and nonprofits to help them understand how trauma and poverty mindset and addiction affect the people that they serve so that they can serve more effectively as well.

Suzanne’s Journey and Mission to Support Women Coming out of Difficult Situations

Carrie: Awesome. Now, how did you get started in that work in, you know, mothers in crisis pregnancy situations?

Suzanne: Yeah, I was actually a single mom for a number of years, myself.

I had a crisis pregnancy when I was in college, and then, um, got grew up in a very, very Christian home and found myself by the time I was at a junior, at a Christian university, I was smoking, I was drinking, I was experimenting with illegal drugs, and then I ended up pregnant. And we did get married and it was not good a marriage as it wasn’t a dating relationship, which led to divorce when my son was just right at two.

And then several years of single parenting, I met and married my current husband. We’ve been married now almost 20 years, had a second son.  And as I began to kind of rebuild and restabilize, I wanted. Be able to give back to women that were in the same situation that I had once been in. And so I began volunteering at a local pregnancy health center, and I was there for seven years.

I ended up really, really loving it, loving what I did. But we just began seeing more and more women coming through that needed a deeper level of support. They were pregnant and living in their cars. They were afraid of being kicked out by, you know, angry stepdads. They were 24 and didn’t have a g e d kind of floating like a leaf in the wind.

So many of these girls, one particular mom that I recall, she came in one day and she was really frustrated because she had been looking for a job. And so I’m kind of a fixer. So I was asking her, “You know, maybe, are you applying for the wrong kinds of jobs? Are you a poor interviewee? How can I help you fix the problem?”

And she said. “Well, you know, at some point in the interview the baby gets fussy or he needs a diaper change and you know, I’m pretty sure the interview is kind of over at that point.” And of course, my first thought was, “Oh, I’m pretty sure the interview was over when they saw you pushing in the baby stroller.”

But I had been there long enough that I knew that’s never the full picture. So as I began asking more questions, I realized that the reason she was taking her child with her in the first place was because she was living with the baby’s father who was a violent drug dealer and people in and out all day and night.

And so she did not trust him to watch their son even long enough for her to get a job. And I went home that day and told my husband, We have got to do something. It has to be. No one else has stepped up. It has to be us. It took about two and a half years of fundraising and developing, and we opened in 2014 and that conversation was in June of 2011.

Getting Started and Early Challenges

Carrie: Wow. Tell us about, as you started that ministry and were working in it, some of the challenges that you had earlier on that led you to do some more research about trauma information.

Suzanne: Yeah, it was pretty much everything I’ve learned has been because a client came in that we didn’t understand or we didn’t know how to handle, and that is what sent us then to the research.

The Lord is so gracious in giving me a picture and then giving me the education behind it, and then bringing others who need me to know that information. So first it was a poverty mindset, understanding how chronic poverty kind of reshapes. Thinking the worldview of individuals living, especially those living in generational chronic poverty.

Then we started getting some clients coming in who had a history of trauma, but we didn’t understand what that meant at the time because I was used to seeing clients like. One hour every three weeks. You know, living with them is a whole lot different. And so we were getting frustrated and, and we were having a lot of girls come in and go right back out again.

We had one girl come in and she was sick constantly and it was always like an E.R  worthy trip. She would go in to, you know, about every three to four. And we began to like time. We began to say, Okay, well it’s been, you know, this period of time we’re about due. And it was always like bladder infection, urinary tracted infection.

It was always something similar but not exactly the same thing. And it was always validated by the doctors, because of course we were like, well, you know, at some point she’s gotta be faking it. and simultaneously with this, she was also losing jobs because of the time off that she was having to take her cycles was six weeks.

And so we were seeing that about every five weeks she was, you know, getting sick, not able to go to work. Her work isn’t happy. They end up firing her, she goes to the er and then we start the cycle all over again. She ended up that year with 13 different W two. And we were so confused. We were so frustrated cuz she was super, super sweet.

And then we had another girl move into the house who like used unbelievable amounts of toilet paper just by herself. This was way pre-pandemic, way before there was an actual toilet paper black market. But we were just like, how is this disappearing? How can one person be using this much? What is going on?

Understanding Trauma-Informed Approach

And then we had a student intern, a Masters in Social work Intern, doing her their practicum with us, and she had us watch a video by Bessel VanDerKolk, who is the author of The Body, Keeps the Score and instantly pieces fell into place. Immediately, we began to realize that this is the physical outgrowth of the trauma that these women had experienced.

That was the big awakening, eye-opening. We were immediately addicted to absolutely everything, trauma-informed to the point that we began teaching others just because we knew so much. We just saw the vast needs. There’s such an ignorance and such a lack within the church to understand. It was so fascinating and it was also such a relief that, “Oh, that it can be fixed.”

There is reason why her stomach issues were so constant. There is the reason why she was unable to process, to digest the healthy nutritional foods we were giving her. Her body had actually acclimated to Mountain Dew and Cheetos for lunch because that had been for years. So when we’re having salads and you know, fresh fruit and.

That was what was abnormal to her system. So layering for me, layering the poverty mindset with the trauma made it so much easier for us to then deal with women coming in with a past of addiction. Those coming in with a history of mental health because it, to me, it’s just like a layer cake based in the generational chronic poverty thinking that then the trauma is, it is components, you know, it’s either affecting or affected by the client and.

That leads to addiction as a coping mechanism, right? It leads to mental health as an epigenetic response to the trauma. It, it’s all interrelated, but it’s all rooted in their trauma, but also rooted in poverty thinking. Just from learning all of that, we have radically revolutionized how we work with.

And we now boost a 97% success rate of our clients being able to maintain their stability at least a year post-graduation, which to us is a housing, transportation, employment, and childcare.

The ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences) Study and Its Connection to Chronic Health Conditions

Carrie: Wow. That is really amazing because those are a lot of pieces and a lot of times what we see is people come into programs and they’re doing okay and then they leave the program and they relapse or something happens and you know, they’re back into that cycle again, like you were talking about. We wanna talk a little bit about the ACEs study, and I’ll have to kind of explain this a little bit to people, and then I have a question for you. So many years ago, I think this was actually done maybe in the nineties or early two thousands, Kaiser, the eighties early is when it started.

Suzanne: Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah, so Kaiser Permanente, a healthcare company that’s out west in the US, they said, we really wanna look at these people with chronic health conditions. We weren’t even talking about mental health. They were talking about physical health, things like high blood pressure, and diabetes, and looking at the connection between what they called adverse childhood experiences and these chronic physical health condition.

They had a scale where there’s 10 items on the adverse childhood experience scale. Some of them are things like parental divorce, obviously types of abuse, you know, physical sexual abuse. I think maybe having a parent with an addiction, isn’t that on there? These types of experiences that people had in childhood, and what they found was that okay if you had one or two, there was maybe a little bit more of a risk for you to have a chronic health condition, but once you got four and above, all of a sudden it was like a graph skyrocketed at that point like “Whoa, for these people to have addictions and actually end up with not just addictions, but that was one of the things they were looking at. Like I said, the high blood pressure and cholesterol, and so. and looking at people who have had more adverse childhood experiences may even have a shorter lifespan because of some of these chronic health issues that also arise.

What you had told me when we had talked previously. The average church attender has zero to two adverse childhood experiences, or ACEs are usually and the average range for your ministry is seven to nine, so obviously, that’s a big gap to bridge in people kind of understanding what some of these women have been through like can you talk to us about like the challenges of bridging that gap?

Suzanne: Yeah, exactly. So many of them have this significant trauma history. Someone with an ACEs score of seven to nine means that they have experienced at least one instance of seven to nine of those items on the ACEs study. And just for your audience, they are physical, emotional, sexual abuse, physical or emotional neglect, and then household dysfunction category is a family member with mental illness and incarcerated relative domestic violence, mother treated violently, substance abuse or divorce, but that also can include fatherlessness. What we found was that these women are coming in and they’re carrying this load of trauma.

They’re carrying the past pain, they’re carrying the physical effects of this. They’re carrying the social and emotional and cognitive impairment because of that, you know, many of our moms about 70% did not graduate with a high school diploma or GED because all of this trauma is happening as children.

And so that is significantly affecting them as far as school goes. Then you get labeled a bad kid, and so then you begin adopting those risky health behaviours, whether it’s teen boys that are driving too fast, whether it’s dating the wrong kinds, whether it’s, you know, drugs and alcohol and, and all of these different things that then lead to disease, disability, social problems, you know, in and out of jail, in and out of rehab programs, which can then lead to early death. It can also lead to chronic heart disease, to certain forms of cancer, to COPD and so many different things that we don’t even associate usually at. For an 18 to 22-year-old, the ACEs study does demonstrate.

So we have women coming in from the church who want to volunteer. You know, in this world that have experienced, like me, the ACE questionnaire asks you from birth to age 18 that to answer that I was a zero. All of my ACEs occurred during this one single relationship. And I went from a zero to a seven and then kind of back down again once I began to get my life back together.

Challenges in Ministry and Volunteer Engagement

I have a certain degree of experience, but I cannot relate to the majority of our clients. In the fullness of what they’ve experienced. And so these little volunteers from the churches would want to come in.  I experienced this when I was young, you know, I did that. And so they think that that is enough to balance out the relationship.

It really isn’t because they can’t understand the depth of the brain changes that have occurred. So one of the most important things for us when we’re talking with new prospective volunteers is to really get them to understand what has changed in the brain development of our typical client. They think differently. They respond differently. They have been conditioned to think in these certain ways, and so their behavioral patterns.  It takes a long time to change those. So you’re going to see more rapid outbursts of anger. You’re gonna hear foul language as just as common. You’re going to see and hear things that you’re not going to expect in a typical ministry, and you don’t necessarily have permission to address it.

That’s usually the hardest part because that is hard. They haven’t built trust with our clients. We have, many of our volunteers want to come in and they wanna do bible. Well, many of our girls just flat aren’t interested first of all, and second of all, even if they are interested, they’re not ready for that level.

There’s a great deal of biblical illiteracy, but there’s also a lot of church hurt and church abuse that has to be gotten over before they’re ready for these types of things. And so many times they wanna come in and volunteers from the church want to come in and do these big deep Bible studies with the.

That impacted them, but they’re not a good fit for our clients because maybe they can’t read that well. Maybe they’re not equipped to do the amount of homework that is associated with some of these types of programs. Maybe they’re not ready emotionally for what is going to be unveiled. Maybe they’re not ready as far as just being able to read scripture specifically.

Some of those Old Testament names are really complicated, especially if you accidentally ask one of ’em to read out loud because you’re wanting to draw them in. You’re doing the things that in a typical church environment you want to do, it can backfire. And so we have to be really, really careful to equip our volunteers wisely so that they’re not set up for failure because our mission is not our volunteers.

Our mission is our client. And so our volunteers cannot run off our clients, but there have been several times where our clients run off volunteers.

Carrie: Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah. If you haven’t been used to that, kind of, that experience of what those people have been through in terms of the emotional reactivity that can happen with PTSD over something that, to you seems very slight, but it was a huge deal exactly for that individual.

It was a huge trigger and I think, one of the things that you’re touching on is a lot of times what the church can be guilty of is in these types of ministries going in and trying to like clean people up, like, “Here, let me help you. Here’s some money, or here’s a job, or here’s some clothes and you know, we’re just gonna fix you all up and everything’s gonna be good.” When really true transformation has to happen from the inside out.

The Importance of Understanding and Patience When Working with Individuals in the Healing Process.

I’m curious in terms of like what you’ve seen regarding that may be in your work with other ministries, kind of how you’ve helped them to like reframe that like their role.

Suzanne: Exactly. A lot of times. Well, so it’s two-fold. One is the focus internally and how you work with clients, and the other one is how you message that to the greater community, to your donor base or to your volunteer pool, or like your occasional volunteer pool.

A lot of times, I’ll use the analogy of a pound, because sometimes if you can change the picture from people to animals, it’s a little bit easier to process. Not that I’m equating our clients with. But sometimes it’s just an easier word picture to process. You find a, you know, a stray dog on the side of the road and he’s dirty and matted and, and filthy and you know, you’ve got all sorts of insects and everything crawling all over him.

He’s just really unhappy, starving. And you pick him up and you take him to the pound, they’re going to do a lot of work. They’re. Be checking him out by a doctor. They’re gonna be cleaning him and, and de fleeing and debugging him. Whatever’s crawling on him, they’re gonna be getting him the nutrition that, that he needs.

That’s a process. It’s not an instantaneous, “Oh, I found a dog on the side of the road and now he’s ready for adoption into a new home”. They have to see what’s his temperament. What kind of personality he has. Does he get along well with other animals? Does he get along with small children?

Before they can put this animal into the adoptable population, they have to do some rehab work. But when we look at people on the side of the road, it’s like we have the expectation that all you need is a shower, a hot meal, and a change of clothes, maybe a haircut. But you ought to be fine now and go get you a job and let you know.

Start paying your own way, and it’s not at all the same. The women that we work with are so broken and they have been holding themselves together for so long that a lot of times our first few months is just giving them space to finally acknowledge their broken. And finally, feel all the feelings that they have been hiding from for so long before we can even begin the process of rehabilitation to get them to the place where they can then learn, then grow, and move forward.

Our motto is rescuing mothers, rebuilding lives and restoring futures. And that is very much the progression that we walk through with these women. Rescuing can take upwards of six. Rebuilding. That’s the point where she’s finally ready to start working and getting the job skills that she needs and figuring out, you know, credit and starting to save money to buy her first vehicle because we, we live in a semi-rural area where there is not public transportation, and so a car is almost always her first goal.

And then getting daycare and getting healthy, getting her into the ob-gyn office and, and checking her out, making sure the baby is doing well. And then as she begins to kind of master some of these things and start looking towards the future. Now we can start thinking about what does rebuilding look like for her.

What does living independently look like for her? And that whole process. Overall, pre-pandemic, we were looking at six months to a year for most. And since that time, it really is more like 18 months to two years, partly because of economic changes and partly because we are seeing a significant increase in the severity of the women that come to us.

And just for a frame of reference, we’re the only maternity home within 150 miles. So we serve 13 counties by design and several others by default. So it’s a really vast population that many, many, many are in this boat, but they are not being served because we are so limited on staff in size.

Carrie: Where are you located at?

Suzanne: Right outside Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Carrie: Okay, great. Tell us about BeCarityWise.

Suzanne: Yeah, that is our training arm. We have online videos and we also do in person, whether live via Zoom or local trainings to help other churches, and nonprofits understand how trauma and poverty mindset and addiction affect the people that they serve so that you can serve more effectively if people are interested in going to becharitywise.com.

I’ve written a short little book called The Accidental Social Worker that helps you get a feel for the why behind some of these things, why poverty mindset is an issue, and why trauma is affecting [hysically. Many times we just assume that, okay, well you’re not in trauma anymore. I’ve rescued you out of that. I’ve got you a safe bed to sleep in. I’ve got new food. You know, that should be enough. But the trauma carries with them because the trauma is not actually the event that happened. It’s the emotions associated with the event that happened, and that can carry through really for a lifetime until these women are able to find healing.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s huge. A lot of overlays between what you are talking about and foster care. You know, this sense of like, okay, so we’ve removed this child from the home where there was addiction and poverty, neglect, and now we’ve put them in the suburbs with this. Nice family and everything’s safe and good, but they’re still responding as though they’re in that abusive, neglected environment. You know that that happens.

Suzanne: Exactly.

Carrie: Quite frequently and a lot of times people, they’re very confused by that. Like, what in the world is going on where? Responding this way? I think that what you’re doing is so important in terms of us being able to effectively minister to people out in the community, like the real world, real life stuff that you’re seeing, and so I appreciate you sharing with us about that.

At the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Suzanne: The one that sparks me is actually what got me out of my first marriage and on this long journey, even though at the time I really didn’t realize it. I was so, I was still in active addiction with my first husband, but I was managing it, You know, he was a musician, which meant he didn’t have to work apparently.

and so I was doing what I could to earn more like I had sold mortgages at this time. I was selling insurance and I had had a really frustrating day and I went to go to my mother-in-law’s to pick up our son, and I was just kind of complaining, you know, these were good little church people as well. And so I was still talking the talk when I was around them, and I just said, You know, it was so frustrating.

I just, I don’t understand why God just won’t bless me. My mother-in-law just very graciously turned around and said, Well, What are you doing that God can bless? And then she just went back to filling my son’s little backpack as we got ready to go home. But in an instant, I was just stripped naked. I was so raw and open and vulnerable.

I finally saw myself through the Lord’s eyes, and that was the day that I had to shift everything. That was November. 2000. And from that point forward, it took several weeks for me to quit smoking. But uh, that was the only thing I was really personally addicted to. But the cigarettes, the alcohol and the drugs just stopped immediately.

My marriage was, was more of a challenge. But by February, my son and I were living independently because I couldn’t stay any longer. The veil had been, And I couldn’t unsee it. And I knew that if I stayed in my first marriage because my first husband was not willing to leave that lifestyle, I knew that I would not be strong enough to stay stable on my own.

It was either with him and clean or without him and clean. And he chose without. And so, that to me is one of the defining conversations of my life. And it was probably 15 seconds long.

Carrie: Yeah. Sometimes all you need is that like kind of one or two sentences and it just sparks something within you.

That was huge, Sounds like a turning point. And change the whole trajectory of your life.

Suzanne: It sure did. Yeah.

Carrie: Wow. And we’ll put links in the show notes to where people can find you and hopefully, some people will kind of take advantage of these trainings for their churches and, and ministry sites.

Suzanne: Yeah, I would love that.

80. Where Are Our Guests Now

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 80. Where Are Our Guests Now

Where are our guests now? To mark the Hope for Anxiety and OCD 80th episode, I’m giving you some updates on some of our past guests.

Some of them recorded their own updates and some sent us the update via email to read.


           

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 80. I thought it would be kind of fun to do an update episode where we hear where our guests are. Now, the podcast has been live for almost two years. Some of our guests are doing some new things that you might be interested in. And this also gives me an opportunity to remind you of some of the episodes that you may have missed and wanna go back and listen to.

Some of our guests recorded their own updates to put in the podcast and some sent us the update via email to read. I’ll start off by giving you several author updates. I mean, you always wanna keep up with the authors because of course they have written more book.

Holly Gerth

Holly Gerth brought us episode 19, Thriving as an Introvert in an Extrovert World.

This is truly one of my favorite episodes that we did because I wish I had understood intro introversion 20 years ago, as a young adult. I think it would’ve made just such a huge difference for me in understanding myself and how to navigate the world. Holly has written a devotional book for people, struggling with anxiety called what your mind needs for anxious moments that came out in September. And she’ll also be hosting, Breaking Free from Stress Worry and Anxiety Summit.

Peyton Garland

Peyton Garland told us the story of her O OCD diagnosis and treatment in episode 26. Here’s her update.

Peyton: Hey everybody. It’s Peyton Garland. I had the honor and the pleasure of being on the hope for anxiety and OCD podcast about a year, a year and a half ago. And I just wanted to hop back on here and let you guys know that there has been so much growth in my life. And you know, it probably sounds a little cheesy because hope is in the title of this podcast, but I’ve found lots of hope in the past year.

Since I last chatted with you guys, I have found hope and a little white better known as Zoloft. I am so thrilled that I have finally found a medication that seems to be a true miracle and is working so well for my brain. And also my soul. My husband and I just bought an old 1894 farmhouse in Tennessee on about 13 or 14 acres and, you know, OCD for me as someone who struggles with sensory overload.

I am so to finally seem to get some serenity and some peace and have just the quiet of nature to nurture my mind. And aside of that last time I talked with you guys, I just released not so by myself, my first book, and it was a memoir that dug deep into my, my big battle with OCD, you know, kind of pre-diagnosis.

The day I got the diagnosis and post-diagnosis and how to trudge through difficult seasons. Well, and I’m so honored to let you guys know that I have a second book releasing actually in about a couple of weeks, it’s gonna be called Tired, Hungry, and kind of Faithful, Again, diving into this concept that life is messy. Life is muddy, but it is so beautiful, even in seasons of hunger where you’re thirsting for more, where you feel that your faith and your hope are kind shoved in a glass that’s half. But there’s so much room to fill that cup. And, and it’s a cup that’s mid by God to overflow and yeah, a year later still strugg ling with OCD, but finding so much hope.

And I would love for you to check out my next book. It’s got lots of funny stories. My dogs are in this book as well. Lots of tidbits on my battle with OCD, but I think most of all, it’s just. The story of me discovering that there is true beauty from Ash and that that beauty from Ash is something that’s attainable for you as well.

So again, I’m so excited to be back on here and to tell everyone, Hey, life is full of light and hope amid the mess over in Peyton Garland’s world. And I’m so excited to catch you guys later.

Dr. Irene Kraegel

Carrie: Dr. Irene Kraegal who joined us for episode 16 on his mindfulness for Christians had a new book come out on August 2nd, published by Zondervan.

The book is a Christian mindfulness devotional for teens, also applicable for adults. Each of the 150 devotionals includes a scripture passage, a spiritual reflection and a corresponding mindfulness practice. Written guides for classic mindfulness based stress reduction exercises are included such as a body scan, sitting practice and movement meditations along with instructions for informal mindfulness practices that can be incorporated throughout each day.

The devotional also includes introductory and frequently asked question information about effective integration of mindfulness with the Christian.

Pastor Steve Hinton

Carrie: Pastor and author Steve Hinton joined us on episode 37 to discuss doubt and faith. This has been a popular episode in regards to downloads. So if you missed it, you might wanna catch up on that one.

Steve Hinton: Hello, Carrie let me just first say congratulations on reaching number 80 in your ministry and podcast journey. Wow. Your 100th episode is just around the corner. And Gary, I know that your work is encouraging so many people on my end. Well, I’m actually on an extended social media fast this summer, but I am gonna pick up my blog work again the second in September.

You know, social media fast might be a good idea for many of your listeners because there’s so much stress that we unknowingly allow into our lives. And that can’t be prevented by governing what we bring into our hearts and minds from the world around us. But I am planning to get back to the blog in September and I will do this.

I will send a free copy of the confessions book to the first person in your audience who leaves a comment or question in the blog post. When I kick back into it in September the kingdom.com blog post, in addition to my preaching role with a local church on the north side of Houston, I am working with a ministry designed to help foster soul care for pastors, which really is a vital need in our day and age.

I want you to know that pastors need encouragement as well, but again, you have done a wonderful job and, and I’ve been inspired by your podcast and my preparations to launch a future podcast, myself, keep going and as the British say, good show. Thank you, Carrie for all your work.

Carrie: Now we have a few counselor updates for you.

Dyana Robbins

Dyana Robbins: Hi, Carrie and Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast guests. I am Diana Robbins and I was a guest on the podcast talking about my experience, parenting special needs, and children who struggle with anxiety. Since that podcast aired. I have moved back to the United States from Singapore and I’m working as a licensed professional counselor and group and private practice in Texas,

My specialty areas are trauma and grief recovery. I am also developing a program entitled building resilience and parents of exceptional children. For my doctoral dissertation. This program will provide information, support and counseling interventions to help parents thrive at every stage of parenting special needs children.

This month, I have also been a presenter at the trauma and mental health conference where Christian leaders from many fields provide guidance in helping those affected by trauma. You can learn more about my work and contact me through my website dianarobbins.com. That’s D Y A N A R O B B I N s.com.

Thank you, Carrie, for the opportunity to connect with your important work and with all of your listeners. God bless you all.

Lindsey Castlemen

Carrie: You may remember Lindsey Castleman from episode 22 welcoming parts. We don’t like where she introduced us to ifs therapy and told us a sweet story of hope about adopting her son.

Lindsey would like everyone to know that she is doing well. She’s currently the director at the Counseling Center at Fellowship. She supervises marriage and family therapist and has a group practice. She says she’s very proud of the team that she gets to work with and is thankful for all of the opportunities that God has brought her way.

Aron Strong

Lindsey introduced me to Aron Strong of Pathways Counseling in Murphysboro, Tennessee, who brought us episode 29 on God, Feelings and Theology. This was a great episode where we discussed how God has feelings and created us in his image to have feelings as well. Pathways Counseling in Murphysboro has grown adding three additional full-time therapists for a total of nine therapists and graduate interns.

They’re also beginning the process of launching a new location in Mount Juliet, Tennessee. Lindsay and Aron both have an organization called In Relationship and they would like you to know that they have, in addition to their marriage intensives, In Relationship has also created a day and a-half marriage workshop for churches and organizations called Being With. They also have online courses for therapists and Christian counselor member groups. In Relationship has its own podcast.

And they’re excited to announce that they’ve been working with Bridgestone on writing a series of four trainings on empathy and relational engagement to help create work environments in their Firestone stores that employees won’t want to leave. So that’s very exciting for them. Now I’m going to share some updates from organizations and individuals who support people with anxiety in some way.

Dr. Katie Aitken

Carrie: In episode 45, Dr. Katie Aiken joined us for improving nutrition to help anxiety.

Dr, Katie: Hi, Carrie, and the Hope for Anxiety and OCD community. Congratulations on 80 episodes. I’m sure these conversations have helped so many Christians with anxiety and OCD find more connections. Since we’ve spoken, I’ve released the audiobook version of my book, Create, Calm, The Professionals Guide to Overcoming Anxiety from the inside Out. it’s on Audible.

I know how much you love listening to practical guidance on managing anxiety at home. And this resource has all my best tips. The section on connection, where I share how my faith cultivated my self worth might be something that you would enjoy. It’s been great to connect with you, Carrie. Best wishes for your next 80 episodes

Cat Sharp

Carrie: On episode 46, cat sharp brought us Combating Emotional Eating with scripture.

Cat: What an honor, it is to be a part of this special episode. Carrie, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to update you and your listeners on how the Lord is working in my life. Over the last few years, my business has been primarily focused on helping Christian women overcome the traps of emotional eating and binging.

But recently the Lord has been calling me to teach more about what discipleship means and what it looks like in different areas of our lives. So I’ve been partnering with other Christian teachers to create the everyday disciple virtual summit together. We’re tackling topics of parenthood, forgiveness, finances, work, and, and so many more.

And we’re taking a look at what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in our everyday normal lives. The summit and working with these teachers has been such a blessing for me personally. And of course, as our heavenly father does, he has been challenging me in some new ways. So I’m really excited to share the summit with you and your listeners.

If you would like to learn more, please go to cat sharp.com/summit. The summit is free of course. And if you happen to miss this one, don’t worry. We’re gonna be doing another one. I just don’t have the dates for that yet. Again, thank you, Carrie, for allowing me to be a part of your amazing podcast in the way that you serve others.

Alexa Hulsey and Trey Brackman of Encircle Acupuncture

Carrie: We covered the topic of acupuncture on Episode 23 with Encircle acupuncture. I really wish that they were closer to me. It was near my old office and I miss going to acupuncture. It is so relaxing. Trey and Alexa have an update for us.

Alexa: Hi, this is Alexa Hulsey from Encircle acupuncture.

Trey: And this is Trey Brackman from Encircle acupuncture

Alexa: So Trey, what have you been up to?

Trey: Well, I have surpassed my 10-year mark here at Encircle Acupuncture, continuing to help my wife raise three great kids and continuing to do community acupuncture that I love. How about you? What have you been up to Alexa?

Alexa: Well, I am continuing to see patients here at Encircle. We’ve celebrated our 12 years of treating patients and I have also been blogging. My blog notes from your acupuncturist, which you can find on substack and write about all things related to acupuncture.

Trey: That sounds awesome. It is. And you have recently been on another podcast. I was on Sebastian’s finest hour and we talked all about acupuncture and community acupuncture.

It was really a lot of fun. I would do that again.

Alexa: Awesome. So check out Trey on Sebastian’s finest hour and notes from your acupuncturist on substack. Thanks.

Kelly Ehlert

Carrie: Kelly Ehlert is a pelvic floor physical therapist who joined us on episode 20 to discuss overcoming sexual anxiety and dysfunction for women. She’s also in middle Tennessee.

Kelly would like you to know that she’s collaborating with an acupuncturist and functional medicine provider to help women solve underlying issues for some of their physical symptoms and are offering a collaborative program with the three of them treating the individual. They’re currently calling this the purple duck pack, finding the right provider and creating overall health for mental, physical, and emotional wellbeing on her website.

Kelly has some free resources for returning to work postpartum and free screens for considering when to see a pelvic floor, a physical therapist, to determine if her niche is a good fit for them as someone who just had a baby. I really appreciate all that pelvic floor physical therapy has to offer. In helping women recover their bodies after birth.

Jeff Allen

Carrie: We had a few guests share their personal stories with us, fellow podcaster, Jeff Allen who’s also the host of Simple Mental Health shared with us his story about discovering he had anxiety on episode 32.

Jeff: Hi, Carrie, thank you so much for reaching out and giving me an opportunity to speak again on your podcast and congratulations on 80 episodes. That is quite an accomplishment, especially when you are coordinating all the interviews and giving people such valuable content.

Thanks for all that you do. I just wanted to update you and tell you a little bit about what’s going on with. I recently found out that it’s not just an anxiety disorder, but I have been diagnosed with something called cyclothymia, which is basically a really mild form of bipolar. Been treating it with medication and goodness. I can’t tell you what a difference that has made in my life.

I’m blessed to have found a psychiatrist that has worked with me so well. And given me the opportunities to treat what’s going on with me also, I have been promoted at my job recently. I’m the online site lead for the gathering, which is a church in St. Louis, Missouri recently wrapped up the third season of my podcast, Simple Mental Health. If anybody wants to check it. Simple mental health on all the podcast platforms. Check it out. Thank you so much for all that you do, Carrie. I can’t wait to continue to listen and ride along with you as you continue.

Jennifer Harshman

Carrie: This podcast journey. Have a great one last but not least.

We have an update from Jennifer Harshman who talked to us about her abuse story. Why did God Allow me to go Through That on episode 47.

Jennifer: In the time since I shared with you part of my journey, I achieved a lifelong dream of having a swimming pool.

I started a TikTok account in late June and all along. I’ve been busy serving others who wanna make a difference. You can hear all about all of the ways. If you go to harshmanservices.com, sign up for any of the free goodies you want while you’re there. There are two things that I’m doing right now that are the most exciting one is your book bakery, making it easy to write a book, which is a book I wrote, it’s coming out September 1st. And it goes with a program that I’ve been running for a few years, where I walk you through the process of writing a helpful nonfiction book. All you need is the right recipe, and you can do this. The other is editor’s school, where I teach you how to become a freelance editor and build a solid income.

I’ve been helping people since 1992, and I love helping people make dreams come true. You deserve it.

Carrie: Jennifer, congratulations on the pool. That is a great life goal. And who knows? Maybe I might get around to writing my book someday. It’s truly been a blessing and a privilege to interview all of these guests and provide this valuable information for you.

Podcast Updates

Carrie: Since I have updated you on our former guest, I also wanted to update you on what is going on with my counseling practice, By the Well Counseling. I have made the decision to keep my business online for the time being while my daughter is young. However, I have. Insured office space for intensives to focus on doing those on Fridays, I was trained in the flash technique for treating trauma this year.


I also have an upcoming training on something called Blast and in November. I’ll receive additional training for working with OCD via EMDR. I’m excited about just continuing to learn and continuing to grow as a professional each and every year, I continue to be amazed and blown away at how many people are finding the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast.

I have been on several other podcasts to promote this one, which is a great way for people to find out about the show. Of course we also have our social media marketing that we work on just putting up posts on Instagram and Facebook for people who are following us there. According to Google, our website is showing up more and more in Google searches.
So that’s really exciting to me not because I want to have a podcast following. I don’t really care about that. I am excited because it means that more and more people are accessing just messages of hope and knowing that there’s a variety of treatment options available for them. And then if one doesn’t work that they don’t have to be pigeonholed into that treatment.

They can seek other treatments outside of that. That’s one thing I’m super passionate about especially for people who are struggling with OCD and have been told, there’s only one treatment for them. I have many hopes and dreams for the podcast that I thought I would go ahead and share with you. It feels actually like a little bit vulnerable to do this because I don’t know if any of these things are going to actually come true or not.

My big girl dream is to start a nonprofit organization that helps people get the mental health treatment that they need by matching them with an appropriate provider, making sure that financial barriers are removed if they’re not able to afford counseling or afford their copay. I know that there are a lot of great resources, great counselors out there.

And unfortunately seems like finances often get in the way of people getting the very specified. Specific help that they need, because there are so many different types of therapies and ways that therapists practice. It’s hard for people to find what it is that they actually need. So that’s my big girl dream that we’re miles and miles away from, and I don’t know if it will ever come true, but I just said it out loud to you.

Another passion of mine related to the podcast is I would love to get some self-help materials out into the hands of specifically Christians who are looking for help with anxiety and OCD. This could be a great precursor to people coming to counseling, or as a supplement for people who are already in counseling. I’m not exactly sure for me, if this looks like an online course, a workbook, audio, relaxation, or maybe a combination of all of things. I’m not really sure, but it’s something that I hope to be, have time and be able to take some time to work on between now and the end of the year. Doing every other week episodes has really been super helpful and much less stressful in this season of life.

So thank you for all of those of you who have kind of like held on with us this year, in that transition of going from weekly episodes to every other week episodes. Since there are so many new people finding this show, I think it’s actually a good thing in both ways because many people don’t listen every week or, you know, don’t have opportunity to do so. I absolutely love hearing from our listeners and I would love any support communication. If you want to be involved in a beta launch of a course or a workbook, definitely reach out to me via our website. Hope for anxiety and ocd.com. And I’ll kind of put all of those emails together.

I’m always writing about things like this first to our email audience. Anyway, if you’re not on our newsletter, be a good time to get on there and just keep up to date. If you’re interested in any of the self-help stuff, mostly I just let you know what’s going on with the podcast and things that I’m offering. I am going to keep on to the best of my ability, continuing to help Christians who are struggling with anxiety and OCD.

I’d like to ask If you would pray and consider supporting our podcast, you can do that via Patreon through monthly subscription, or one-time gifts can be sent through the website, Buy me a Coffee.

Those links will be in our show notes. There are a variety of expenses that go into producing a podcast, such as, you know, website hosting, editing. And I just really appreciate if you would consider supporting this because as I really view this as my ministry to reach people all over the world who are Christian and struggling, not everybody has access to counseling services where they’re at, unfortunately. People just need this positive support, hope and encouragement sometimes to keep going.

Thank you all for listening to the podcast today. I appreciate each and every one of you who take the time to tune in.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

81. On Becoming Parents: Year Two of Marriage with Steve and Carrie Bock

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode.

Steve and I wanted to share some personal updates with you as we reached another milestone in our marriage.  

Episode Highlights:

  • How becoming parents changed us and affected our marriage
  • Our child-care setup
  • Staying positive while battling a rare chronic condition
  • Relying on faith and finding blessings amidst life’s challenges

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 81. I’m Carrie Bock, joined by my husband, Steve, as we celebrate our second anniversary. We’ve come a long way from episode 10, where we first shared about dating, and episode 50, reflecting on our first year of marriage.

A Diagnosis Finally Confirmed
After a year and a half of tests at Vanderbilt, Steve was diagnosed with Spinocerebellar Ataxia (SCA), a genetic neurological disorder affecting balance. While the diagnosis brought relief in knowing what we were dealing with, it also introduced uncertainty. It wasn’t just an eye issue but a progressive condition affecting his cerebellum.

Coping with a Genetic Condition
Tracing the origins of SCA in Steve’s family has been difficult, unlike more familiar conditions like Alzheimer’s. The lack of a cure made the news challenging, but our previous concerns about Leber’s disease prepared us for living with an incurable condition. The future is uncertain, as SCA’s progression varies widely; some plateau, while others decline rapidly.

Embracing Humor and Hope
We’ve tried to keep things light—Steve even named his cane “Abel,” as a playful biblical nod. We considered making it a bit of fun with a Christian radio show, helping us find humor amid hardship.

Celebrating Two Years of Marriage
Despite challenges, our second year of marriage brought joy, especially with our daughter’s birth. Parenting has taught us to let go and embrace life’s unpredictability. Sleepless nights and teething struggles are tough, but we cherish these moments.

Steve’s SCA journey and our growing family remind us to find strength in adversity, cherish each day, and move forward with hope. Together, we’re learning to adapt and find joy in life’s challenges.

Explore Related Episode:

50. Doctor’s Offices, Prayers, and Our First Year of Marriage

Summary

Carrie: Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 81. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and I am here with my husband, Steve Bock. Say hello.

Steve: Hello, this is actually our second-anniversary episode. We came on episode 10 to talk about dating. That was right before we got married. We sat on the floor in the closet. Now the recording set-up is a little bit better but still in the closet, we are still in the closet. That’s a dream for the next house is we have a place to put the podcast studio. But until then, here we are.

A Long-Awaited Diagnosis

And we also did episode 50, which was on our first year of marriage. You talking about we had just gotten back from Vanderbilt, discussing, trying to figure out what was going on with your eyes and all of that. All of the tests that they did on you six hours and really didn’t find the results. Now we’re here. We’re gonna be married for two years. Yes. Yeah. And this will come right out shortly after our anniversary. So you finally got a diagnosis as of last week?

Steve: That’s correct. Finally. Yeah. It took a year and a half. I think something like that. After several visits to several places, long story short, we got a diagnosis. Knew that something was wrong, but did not know what, and a diagnosis is good in one sense, because you now know what you’re fighting against and then a little scary in another sense because you know what you’re fighting against.

So yeah. But yes, we got a diagnosis, which is, let’s see, I’ve been practicing on this one, cuz it’s a long, long name. First time I heard it, I went do what and I had to look it up, but the abbreviated version of it would be SCA, which is Spinocerebellar ataxia

Carrie: Good job.

Steve: And for the record, that is the first time I’ve said that correctly without having to look at it first. But yes, I’ve been working on that. I don’t know why that’s so difficult to say, but it is. Yes,

Carrie: Yes it is. You had been referred to a neurologist and then specialty neurologist back up at Vanderbilt and they were the ones to figure out that this actually wasn’t an eye issue. This was a neurological issue affecting your cerebellum. And part of that was you started to have balance issues that got worse progressively. Right. And that was like one indicator that we knew. “Wait a minute, what else is going on here?”

Steve: And the eye issue was secondary.

Carrie: Yeah. And this is a genetic condition that we have no idea about.

Steve: There’s I think three ways that you can get it, but we think that it’s genetic because the other two options, and I can’t even remember what they are off the top of my head, but they don’t match up. Exactly. So it could be one of those, but I don’t think so. Mm-hmm yes. It’s genetic. I don’t know where to look. The family tree was. I don’t know where to go with that because it only goes back so far for me. I can tell you who’s who to a certain point, but I don’t know their health situation at all.

Carrie: And as far as we know, none of them had this.

Steve: No. We had some other things going on. Mm. Yeah. Lou Gehrig’s and Alzheimer’s, but not this.

Carrie: Recognizing that this is a chronic condition, something that they can treat symptoms for, but there is no cure for right. What was it like to get that news?

Steve: Somewhat shocking, somewhat not. Initially, we thought when we just thought it was the eyes we thought it was, if I’m saying this right Leber’s disease because I also had the symptoms for that.

Some but that, I don’t think there’s a cure for that either. And so with thinking about that for some time, when they told me that again, we kind of, weren’t sure about that one and that was kind of a, eh, maybe not, but it mentally prepared me for the concept of having something that’s not curable. Mm-hmm and just because it’s not curable.

That doesn’t mean that I’m going to die tomorrow. There’s no guarantee of how long anyone lives for that matter, but that’s true. Very true. Also when this type of ataxia, there are 40 plus variance of it. So some of those start at childhood, some of those start later in life. Some people live to be somewhat older. There’s no way to know. And until we get further along, we don’t have enough to go on to know exactly which one that I would.

Carrie: Yeah, I think that’s the hardest part about it for me is that there are so many unknowns. They really can’t tell us anything about how this course is going to go. We’ve even heard, you know, Hey, you could plateau and not decline.

Right? We’ve heard some people decline more rapidly than others and one hopeful. That was made. Was that because it has taken you so long to show these level of symptoms that most likely your decline would be slow? Sure. In a sense, the past is a predictor of the future. That does give us some hope.

It’s hard for me not knowing if our daughter has inherited this. Right. And whether or not she will be affected by it later in life. They won’t test her because they want that to be. Her decision when she turns 18. So as long as she doesn’t show any symptoms prior to she won’t be tested, unless she decides to be through genetic counseling and so forth, that is a hard piece because when we were looking at, you know, is this disease or not Li’s disease actually has a very much quicker onset than the symptoms that you were experiencing. People tend to be legally blind pretty quickly with that, right?

Steve: That only runs through your mother’s side. So in that case, and it affects mostly, I think all males, so comes from your mother affects the males that made me feel a little better for her. Now I do the math in my head and I think of how many family members I have.

And I think, well, I’m not good at stating the odds on any given thing, but I would have to think that the odds are a little better for her only in the sense that none of my family has shown anything like this. so that would tell me maybe it’s skipped so many generations. I don’t know, but that gives me some hope.

It’s a tricky one for sure. And it’s scary. Yeah. In a lot of ways, honestly. Am I scared? No, I don’t know that I am trying to deal with it. That’s where the focus is. What measures do you take for balance? And then we’ve worked on that and that’s kind of where my focus.

Carrie: Yeah. And I just appreciate it, I think that you have had a sense of humor about the whole thing. Tell them what you asked me today,

Steve: Which one? Naming the cane?

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: Well, I thought of a couple of names. I think the first one that I asked you was what if we named it able. Because, you know, Cain and Abel, if you know your Bible, if you don’t, well, you’re gonna have to look that up and find it and learn it.

That’s a good story, but yes, I wanted to name it Abel. And then the second one, I think that we may have chosen was Walkie or the assistant but that just, I don’t know. I can’t imagine being in a restaurant, losing the cane and going where’s the assistant , you know, that just, I don’t know that that’s gonna work out well. Although, I don’t know that where’s walkie is gonna be any better. They’ll be looking for a dog or something. But anyway, we thought about, you know, submitting it to the Wally show to see if they would name the cane, but what would they name it? Yeah. If you have any good names for the cane, you can write into the show and that’s a Christian radio show.

Carrie: Yes,

Steve: Yeah. Where they try to name it for those who aren’t familiar with that

Parenting and the Joy of a New Baby

Carrie: We mainly wanted to update people on that, but then also shift gears and talk about our second year of marriage had a lot of joys to it and had some sorrows, but also our greatest joy of course, was having our daughter who is now sleeping in the crib. We had to wait till she fell asleep.

Steve: Yes. The FOMO is real. Is that a phrase? It ought to. Yes, I think so. Yeah. She definitely has a fear of missing out

Carrie: And she definitely feels like has been teething forever. Yes. I did not realize how much of a labor-intensive process it was to get teeth in your mouth before having a child.

What has it been like for you becoming a parent? How has that affected you and changed you?

Steve: Oh, goodness. I have always been a person who likes routine and a person who has had some structure. I get up early in the morning. I brush my teeth. I do certain things in order, I get my breakfast, get my coffee, give everything in order.

And everyone that knows me, knows that well, have a baby goodbye routine. Pretty much. Yeah. And the thing you have to do with a baby is what form a routine. So it’s difficult, but you know, I learned to work with the. And be prepared for any interruption because it, it happens constantly. When I was trying to make my routine work, I was constantly annoyed with the idea that I couldn’t get anything done.

And then we got some patterns going and I learned routines and what worked with her now I can actually get things done, but having the baby definitely changed my world completely. And honestly for the better, definitely. I wouldn’t trade her for anything in the world. She is just absolutely wonderful. Always happy, always smiling and sticks her tongue out at me a lot, which is just kind of funny. yeah. So it’s definitely changed me. It’s been a good experience, but getting out even to do something is like mowing the grass. If she’s fussy and having a bad day. I may have to put that off a little longer because you have things to do too.

We both have to share that. And so you just learn, you know, if your mowing day is always it on this day at this time. Well, if you have a child, you can kiss that goodbye, but it’s been good.

Carrie: I would say that if you do it right, it helps you realize how much you have to give and how much you have to sacrifice what you want for the sake of your child.

And it’s helped me really learn to let go of some control. I think that that’s something that I still struggle with, helped me learn to go with the flow a lot more and just kind of take things as they come. There were definitely some early days that were really, really hard. She was amazing for about the first three weeks.

And then she started cluster feeding. I was exhausted. She had gas and probably about that week three through, I don’t know, week seven or week 10, it was just, I thought, how in the world am I ever gonna be able to go back to work? I took three months off. And fortunately, right around the time I went back to work, she started sleeping more through the night. So that was been a blessing thing.

Steve: And she is a great child. Like all children, you know, she has her moments and it’s nice now that she’s sleeping through the. It was difficult when she wasn’t. And I would say when she doesn’t get her naps throughout the day. Oh my goodness. That’s a difficulty for starters. I miss my nap when she doesn’t.

Transitioning to Stay-at-Home Parenthood

Carrie: We have a unique situation childcare-wise too, because I stayed home for three months with her, for maternity leave, gave my clients kind of alternative people to see if they needed to check in with somebody or see someone for that time period. And then as. We were in that process of looking at daycares.

And I had looked at daycares when I was pregnant, put myself on several waiting lists. Middle Tennessee is just exploding. Booming places are short staffed, you know, right now. And it was hard to. Find a daycare that was a quality place that had an opening for an infant because, you know, the ratios are so much lower too for that age group, far as they can only have four infants per one adult.

And at some point very early in her life, I’d say probably within the first month, I just looked at you one day and, and we were both sitting there and I just said, you know, will you pray about staying at home with her? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you remember that?

Steve: I do. And you know, my first thought was, I just don’t see myself as a stay-at-home dad.

I’ve always been, go, go, go, gotta work. Like if you’re only working one job, something’s wrong with you? No, I do not think that any longer, but I used to bit of a workaholic. And so for you to ask me that I thought, wait a minute. So I’ll be home with the baby. Not that, that isn’t a lot of work. It is, but being stuck in the house just didn’t seem like me.

Yeah. And then I decided to do it because of health situations and financially it made sense. Mm-hmm and also I got to thinking, you know, we can raise this child with the values that we have and we want, so after I got to thinking about it, it was kind of a no brain. Why wouldn’t I do this? I thought about how many children grow up without a dad?

Yeah. Or dad’s just too busy because he’s working so often. And I thought, you know, I can be that dad that’s there for, so not that I’m trying to be the hero, but I want her to have her best life possible. So it was a no-brainer after that I had to do it. Yeah. And I have no regrets. I wouldn’t change a thing.

Carrie: I think when you’re an older parent, it’s like you have more of the mental and emotional capacity for the child, but less of the physical capacity. Yes. We’re just both like, “Ah, I’m so tired.”

Steve: Yes. There are days I’m like, I am just, I don’t even feel like eating dinner. I just wanna go to bed, but it’s good.

Carrie: Yeah, we really evaluated it and looked at how much working full time was affecting your health. And you were getting more headaches from looking at the computer screen. You were exhausted at the end of the day. And we thought, well, you know, you’re really gonna be working to pay for daycare and. what sense is that we were able to get some health insurance and that was an answer to prayer for sure.

Steve: Definitely

Carrie: That worked out. And then it was like, okay, once that piece was in, you were like, what am I gonna put in my notice? And you were excited about kind of the new venture. Absolutely. It was harder for me going back to work and really trusting that you were gonna have things taken care of?

I think because I had just been so focused on her for so long and then having to switch gears into focusing on my business, rebuilding things, finding out which clients wanted to come back and which didn’t. and I will tell those of you who do not know. So I came back from maternity leave on June 1st.

This summer was probably the slowest summer on record. And summer is typically a slower time of the year for therapists because people are gone on vacation. You know, kids are at home from school, people are busier and it’s sunny outside and they. Go outside to the lake and have a good time. Whereas the winter months, times in October or in February, tend to be a little bit busier than the summertime.

So it was rough in the beginning trying to build a caseload back up. And then I would hear faith crying in the other room and I wanted to like go run and get her, but I couldn’t, That is super super tough for me. It’s easier now because you’ve had some time and I trust you that you’re taking care of it. But in the beginning I felt like this need to like to go run and rescue you and her at the same time.

Navigating Challenges as a Married Couple and Parents

Steve: Sure. It will. And when you are as a guy, I wasn’t used to that. You know, I love babies always have, but getting one to stop crying and knowing the specific cries, which is a language all in itself, but learning that and how to cope.

And if I get annoyed, that affects her. And so changing the routine around and making that work. Oh my goodness. That was a hard thing to do at first. There is a bit of a baby bootcamp to go through, I think, but once you get through it and you know, it, I don’t know if it becomes easier. It is more manageable though. Yeah. I guess it’s easier, but. I’m scared to say that, cuz I’ll wake up tomorrow and it’ll just be crazy or something anyways.

Carrie: Raising a child is a little bit like doing therapy in the sense that as therapists, we go to these conferences and they teach us something. Right. And they’re like, “This is amazing. It works so great with clients. It’s awesome.” You know, you’re just gonna see life transformation and you’re all pumped. Right. And you’re like, okay, I got my three-step process. I know what to do. And then you try it out. First client and it does not work. It like falls flat either. You, you know, you did something wrong or it just didn’t work the way it was supposed to.

And parenting for me has been very much been like that. I have the baby books I read, you know, okay. It says do this, or it says do that, but then really you have to learn your baby and you have to learn like what they respond to what’s best for them. And trust me, it is totally not always gone by the book and.

At different points made me anxious like there was a, I guess I just wanna share this for other moms too. There was a period where she just would not sleep in the bassinet. It was just like, hang it up. She was not gonna do it. And the only place I could get her to sleep was to swing. And I was so felt just this sense of angst and guilt going, but the rules say I’m supposed to lay her on her back and I’m supposed to lay her in the crib and she’s not supposed to sleep in the swing.

And you know what, if I harm her and what if she stops breathing or something, but we did it and you know what she slept. And it was important for her to get her sleep. And it was important for us to get our sleep. So our first trip away from the home with the baby, we took the swing with us.

Steve: Thank goodness we did.

Carrie: Yes. We had a little Memorial day getaway before I went back to work and you became a full-time dad. So yeah,

Steve: We traded places there. I will say the swing worked great. And also, and whoever told me this, I just, I owe you like a thousand hugs or a million dollars or something, but put the baby on the dryer,

Carrie: I think that was somebody at your work that done that.

Steve: Yeah. And yes, it was. And when I first heard, I was like, put the baby on the dryer. That sounds crazy. but then you hit this moment where, okay, this baby, she is screaming at the top of her lungs. I cannot stop her. She’s hyperventilating. I don’t know what to do.

I think I’m hyperventilating. So I pick her up and we go down to the dryer. I think you even said, didn’t you say something about the dryer? Sure. Let’s. We go, we put the baby on the dryer. She stops, she just stares at us and it actually worked. So mom’s out there. If you’ve never tried it or dads do it, it worked.

Carrie: Yeah. Something about, the vibration. Yeah. When you turn it on, they really like it. How do you feel like becoming a parent has affected our marriage?

Steve: I think, honestly, bears with me on this statement, but it will either make you or break you.

Carrie: I would agree with that.

Strengthening Communication and Support

Steve: And for us, I think it’s definitely strengthened us. The problem, I think it is is everyone has a way that they think is right. But as a married couple, you have to work together. And when the baby’s screaming, you don’t have time to figure out. Okay. What do you think? Well, what do you think? No, you gotta calm this baby down. The longer you leave the baby crying, the worse it is.

And so in most cases, I feel like, so we really had to work together and just roll with things and not get angry with one another. And we just had to make it work. And I think that we get to a point where we just know we’re like, oh, the baby’s hungry. We know that. Let’s feed the baby or whatever. Whereas initially, that wasn’t the case.

It was, why is this baby crying? What did we do wrong? And I think some couples could easily say, it’s your fault. You did this, you know, but we figured out a way to make it work

Carrie: or to give each other ideas without getting defensive,

Steve: Yes. Which is so easy to do, especially when you have this little tiny being that is screaming in a way that should not be humanly possible. I do not know how she screams that loudly. The other thing that worked really well. When we had company over, she was like the best. I don’t know how that works. Not that she’s ever that bad, honestly, we’re very blessed, but she rarely cries with company. She’s just even happier. She’s just a social butterfly. And so, yeah, we love company now.

Carrie: I knew that you were gonna be a good dad because you were so supportive. And so open, like during the pregnancy process. And that was really great. You went through the classes with me and,

Steve: Oh, those were so much fun. I remember when you said, oh, we’ve got classes, let’s do them.

And I said, all right, that’s fine. You know? And then I found out that they were gonna be on Sunday, which during Sunday evening that yeah. And I was like, oh, But, you know, you get over. That’s so stupid. I sound like an old man. I can’t miss my nap, but I did. And you know, I learned a ton out of it. I really did.

And we even went to CPR class and we did a couple of things that were just. You know, I like to learn, so it was good. it was good. And you’ve been a great mom for that matter while we’re dishing out compliments here. You’ve been a wonderful mom.

Carrie: Yeah. And there is a doula actually took a couple of pictures while I was in labor. I didn’t realize that she took these pictures, but it’s basically of you like supporting me during the labor process. And I look at those and I’m just like, oh, like it just kind of, you really like makes me. You know, warm and fuzzy inside, because that was a very hard time for me. The pregnancy was actually much tougher than the labor was. But going through labor is not super fun,

Steve: And you know how they show it. I’ve never had a child before. Well, I guess technically I still never had a child, you know, you’ve never birthed a child. Right. I’ve never birthed a child before, but that’s probably a good thing. The way that they show it on TV is not reality clearly.

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: And man, no one gave me a cigar. Not that I’d have smoked it, but no one gave me one of course, whatever, but I wasn’t sitting, waiting in some outside lobby, some. I was in the room with you and there was no break. I remember thinking, well, I think I’ll go get lunch now. And then I looked at you and you’re like, oh no, you won’t

And I was like, no, I won’t. And not that you were rude. I just, I thought things were good and Nope, snack borrow work, or just, well, nevermind, I don’t need anything, but we worked together and that was the first sign that, you know what? You got a parent together. I guess the birth thing you were doing, 99% of the work ladies don’t get like, oh, what’s he think.

But no, you were doing all the work, but it starts there. You know, you, you do what you gotta do. If somebody’s hurting, you gotta be there for ’em, especially if it’s your spouse, And during the labor process, my goodness, I can’t think of it a better time to give support. So we met at work. We had to work together.

Carrie: There used to be this belief that husband shouldn’t be present during labor. I can’t remember why the doctors had some theory on this. And I read in a book that this man actually handcuffed himself to his pregnant wife, smart man. So he could be with her during labor and really changed that process. And how doctors looked at it now.

Steve: Absolutely

Carrie: Most fathers are in the delivery room that are involved anyway. We’ve had some other stressful experiences this year. And I would say that those aren’t necessarily things that were ready to talk about or appropriate to talk about, but it seemed like when it rained, it poured.

Steve: Absolutely. It’s been a challenging year, but at the same time in those challenges, there’s always growth. Yeah. You know, you really, when you’re up against something, you find out who you are, you find out that you cannot handle all of this by yourself. And I’m very thankful that we have one another, you know, to lean on because without church and God, and, and being married and, and those things and having that support system that we have, man, I don’t know how we’d have made it through some of this,

Carrie: Right. Just people that have lifted us up in prayer and talked to us and checked in on. You know, even people that know about your health and waiting for a diagnosis, just being able to tell those people like, okay, well, here we are. This is where, where we’re at and what we’re facing. And this is what we’re looking at in the future.

I think you and I have had to lean on each other a lot. For venting about various issues and processing different things as they’ve come up in a way that spouses should do. But I don’t think everybody does. Right. I don’t think everybody opens themselves up fully vulnerably to their spouse to process through what they’re thinking and feeling about the situations in their life that happen to them.

Learning and Growing Together

Steve: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve learned too that it’s impossible for me to have all the answers mm-hmm so I don’t try to have answers for everything. And usually, the answer to the problem is listen. And so I’ve had to really work hard. Not that I was a terrible listener. But I’ve had to work really hard at listening, which I’m still working on.

That takes time. That doesn’t happen overnight. But a lot of the things that we’ve dealt with have required listening. Yeah. Because there’s no easy answer. Mm-hmm you just, sometimes you have to get it out of your system and vent. And if I’m venting, you listen. And if you’re venting, I listen. That’s just the way that it is.

But listening is, is a big deal, you know, that’s, that’s just, I, I always hear it and I always believe it. I hear people say all the time, you know, God gave you one mouth in two years, so you probably should listen twice as much. Right. It’s true.

Very true. Yeah. And I think those things have grown us closer to God in prayer and closer to each other as we’ve kind of weaned on each other, through these processes. And having our daughter there has been helpful too, because. When you’re down or something’s just difficult. And you’ve got this baby that is just giggling and smiling and sticking her tongue out at you, you cannot be mad. You cannot be upset with life. I really believe our daughter has this gift and that is to be an encourager. She doesn’t even know words yet, but we just kind of pass her around for the hugs and smiles and it just really lightens the mood. It changes the focal point from your problem to just this happy little girl that just wants nothing more than to make you happy. Just been a blessing.

Finding Blessings in the Midst of Challenges

Carrie: I think about that too. And just that Faith was conceived and born really during some dark times and some emotional struggles, but. She’s a reminder of the goodness of God and of the faithfulness of God. You know, when people ask, like, why did you name your daughter faith? It’s like, well, you know, it took a lot of faith for us to get to this point to be alone and then to be older and find each other, not know if we could have a child or not and have her, I really believe that she was born for a purpose in, in God’s plan. And had we received this diagnosis before we got pregnant? We probably would’ve said, you know, I, I don’t think we should do this. I don’t think we should go through with this. So she showed up at just the right time and part of my process right now.

Just trusting God one day at a time to be able to give me the strength to make it through the day, but also to know that he’s in control, that he loves us and that he’s gonna take care of us, regardless of what happens that he’s gonna provide for our needs. That hopefully next time, you know, when we record this in a couple of years, that we’ll be in one storey house.

Just believing that very excited for that day. Yeah. yeah, that she won’t have to traverse the stairs that are in her home and yeah, just knowing that God is good and he loves us. And even in the dark times that he’s still here, he’s still present he’s for us. And that keeps us going just one day at a time, one step at a time.

Embracing the Present and Looking to the Future

I think for me too, living in the moment, learning so much about mindfulness, applying that during my pregnancy, just trying to get through the back pain that I was dealing with at the time it’s allowed me to manage these situations much better because I realized I can only deal with what we have today.

So today was about getting your cane in the mail and you starting to learn how to use it. Today wasn’t the day to worry about, are you gonna end up in a wheelchair because we’re not there? No, and we hope to not be there for sure. but you know, when those thoughts enter my mind, it’s like, okay, you know, pause right now.

We’re thankful every day that Steve can walk, we’re thankful for every day that you get to see your daughter grow up. There was a time period, you know, where it’s like praying that God would preserve your sight. That you’d be able to see her even be born. We just didn’t know. Right. There was so much, we didn’t know at the time that God has allowed you to do that. And learning about this diagnosis has just really reinforced the decision to have you be a stay-at-home dad because now you’re getting more quality time with her. Right. And I love being able to work from home and online and kind of see her during lunch and in between clients.

I don’t have a commute. It’s just been a huge blessing for our family to be able to. Involved in her life. And there’s so much, I think that could have derailed this podcast from continuing, but we’re still here, you know, it’s, it’s still here two years later. That’s right. And after just everything that we’ve gone through, I’m so thankful for that.

I’m thankful for the people that find us that tune. And you know, are willing to listen to me, ramble and fumble through interviewing people. And just have, you know, an amazing teammate as well, that works behind the scenes with me to do our editing, social media and those types of things.

Steve: We are so blessed.

I hope that as a listener, you don’t hear this or someone doesn’t hear this and think my gosh, they got some problems. No, I, I hope you see that we are. That. Yes. There’s something I’ve been diagnosed with, but God’s still blessing me and I was thinking I can’t help, but think of our dear friend who you just had on recently, I don’t remember what the 76 is that it, I can’t remember, but..

Carrie: Don’t remember the number was John Bennett.

Steve: Yes. And we actually spoke with him recently. He and his lovely wife. What an encouragement. He says with what he has, that God’s blessed him. He wouldn’t trade, change it for anything. And when I first heard that, I was like, “Are you crazy? No one wishes cancer on themselves.” But he has such a good attitude about it.

And I thought, my gosh, if I can just have that attitude and see the blessings and not the bad and see that I have a wonderful wife who supports me and I have a beautiful daughter and we just have a good support system. We go to church here. We just love what we have and God has blessed us dearly.

It hasn’t always been. But it’s just better and better every day. So there’s a purpose in it. And that’s the part that I have to see.

Carrie: Yes. And if anybody happens to know anybody with SCA, because it’s just so rare and we’ve looked into some support groups, but we have yet to really meet anybody that’s dealt with that.

So if you wanna drop us a line at the podcast we’d love to hear from me too and learn about your story. I think when we try to explain it to other people, they’re just like what? I’ve never heard of that. And we’re like, well, we hadn’t heard of it either. So right. We’re in the same boat with you.

Steve: And you know, the other thing is I thought when I heard of this, what’s the first thing you do. You try to find somebody famous that has it that way you can say, “well, you know, so, and so has this, you know, the actor or the singer.” There’s no one that’s famous that has this. And so I don’t know, maybe famous people, if you’re famous, you don’t get it.

Maybe that’s the key to get rid of it. I don’t know. But, there are no famous people that have it, that I’m aware of and I’ve looked and I’ve gone on to different groups. And that’s the key thing I hear is who’s famous that has it. And everyone says no one.

Carrie: If we were to ask you a closing question, this has kind of been a story of hope so far. So we won’t ask you the story of hope question, but what would you tell your younger self? Like if we could fast forward, back to our interview a year ago, when we were at first year of marriage, six hours of appointment, no answer. What would you tell yourself?

Steve: Just be patient and know that God’s in control that no matter the outcome he’s in control because there was definitely a time where even just right until I found out what this diagnosis is that I thought this is useless.

We’re spending time, money, effort, resources, whatever to find out an answer that I don’t, I’m not convinced we’re ever gonna find out. And when you have a rare disease that makes it more difficult to diagnose it. Yeah. That might be the reason it took so long. And, and when you’re going to the specialist, the people that should know, and they can’t find out and you keep, you get referred to these places and you get all these tests and they just aren’t getting answers.

You feel like a pin cushion after a while or at least I was getting, I don’t know if I was discouraged just to the point where, okay, enough’s enough. I don’t think we’re gonna find the answer.

Carrie: You actually looked at me and told me that probably about a month before your neurology specialty neurology appointment, you said, I don’t think they’re gonna find it.

Steve: I didn’t, I really didn’t. And you know, they did, and that changes me because now. As I said earlier, I know what I’m fighting against. So I think if you’re in a situation where you don’t think you’re gonna get the answers and you’re not getting the answers, you know what be patient, because God knows the answers.

God knows what you need. Yeah. And the anxiety from it is just not worth it. The amount fret that you have, if that’s a way to say that the worry that you have from it is probably not worth it.

Carrie: I would encourage people not to give up hope and to keep seeking the person that has the answers that you need, or the knowledge base that you need in order to have a diagnosis or to get better.

I know from clients that I’ve talked to in the past who were misdiagnosed, or, you know, maybe they had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but they really had PTSD. And you explained to. You’re telling me about all these traumatic things that you’ve been through. Here are some of the symptoms of PTSD.

This is actually something that’s highly treatable. We can work through this trauma and we can help you get to a better place. That’s so encouraging and so hopeful for them or for somebody who is dealing with obsessions, that makes them feel like, well, I must be crazy or I must be horrible. But then when they learn, they have O C D there’s this.

That comes to it as well. Like, oh, this is a condition. It has a treatment, you know, I can get better. I may be waxing and waning throughout my life, but I can be in a better place than I am right now. I know that we had people tell us, even like, Hey, if you have to, you know, go to the Mayo clinic, then go to the Mayo clinic.

Like don’t give up on yourself. Find the answers. Thankfully, we just had to get to the correct specialists at Vanderbilt. Yeah. That we needed to see who was just incredibly nice and compassionate were appreciative of him.

Steve: I would say too. And you said this to me before that it would be difficult if I were still single. I don’t know how I would’ve handled this. It would’ve been very, very difficult. And I would say if you are single or in a situation where you feel like you’re alone with something, don’t do it alone, get a prayer partner. You know, you can call your church. If you have one and say, “Hey, would you pray for me?”

Do not do it alone because that’s the worst thing you could do. I support the people who have prayed for me, the people who have stood beside me, Carrie, who’s been right there the whole time. That means so much. That’s what gets you through your day sometimes when you really want to give up, you’re like, I’m done with this.

This is so terrible. And then they’re right there, cheering you on. You can do this and it just, makes a world of difference. So don’t do it alone.

Carrie: Yeah, of course, as always. It was great to have you back on the podcast. Thank you everyone for tuning in and listening to us ramble about our second year of marriage.

Steve: Yeah, thanks for having me, by the way, I enjoy this.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

79. Personal Story of Anxiety with Dr. Sherri Yoder

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 79. Personal Story of Anxiety with Dr. Sherri Yoder

Today on the show, I’m joined by Dr. Sherri Yoder, a former clinical psychologist and the founder and executive director of Thriving Thoughts Global. Dr. Sheri talks about her personal story of anxiety and how it led her to her work now in her non-profit organization.

  • Dr. Yoder’s story of struggling with anxiety 
  • Strategies she used to work through her own anxiety 
  • How she got involved in mental health prevention and education
  • More about her non-profit organization, Thriving Thoughts Global 

Related Resources:

Thriving Thoughts Global

More Personal Stories

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 79. Today on the show, we have a little bit of a unique episode. I mean, we’ve done these kinds before, but it’s kind of a combination of personal story and professional, um, inform. So I have Dr. Sherri Yoder, who is a former clinical psychologist and the founder and executive director of Thriving Thoughts Global, which is about mental healthcare prevention.

From Clinician to Patient: My Battle with Anxiety

So I’m really interested in that conversation that we’re gonna have Dr. Sherri.

You wanted to start out by talking about kind of your own personal story of anxiety.

Dr. Sherri: Thank you so much for having me Carrie and giving me the opportunity to share a little bit. I think it’s so important for us to not just normalize anxiety, but normalize how we respond to it.

Thanks for giving me the chance to do that. Years ago when I was practicing as a clinical psychologist. So it’s been almost maybe 10 years now. I had my first, what I would call major episode with anxiety. That was pretty chronic. It was both acute and chronic at the same time. It lasted a long time. It had to do with a lot of things.

It had, my thoughts had to do with some spiritual fears, but also some professional fears. Somewhat related to being an imposter and that sort of thing. But being found out just irrational fear of being found out, what am I gonna be found out about? I keep up with my CE’s. I do the things I do therapy. Like I’m good.

I’m good at my business, you know, all of that, but there were certainly irrational fears that started to develop. And so what happened during that time is it got so bad that the only time that I wasn’t having a spiraling thoughts that would kind of physically take me out at the knees was when I was in therapy when I was doing therapy with other people because I was like, I was zoned in, I was focused on them and it was like a freedom to a degree because I didn’t have to be inside my head.

I could be outside of my head. And so that was really the only relief that I got during that time. And I’d say that that ran about four to five months to the point where I knew it was unsustainable, I knew I had to do something. I had to respond to it differently, or I was gonna have to check myself in somewhere because it was getting that bad.

I say that to say that I was never formally diagnosed. I was a clinical psychologist. I was the one that diagnosed other people. And certainly, I could have met the criteria for a number of different anxiety-related disorders. But what happened during that time is what served as the catalyst for the work that I do now. And it was a deep, intimate understanding of what it’s like to deal with potentially debilitating anxiety. And so what happened is I became a stronger clinician in that regard, but I became a more compassionate human as well. So I’m thankful for that experience. And since then that set me on the path to realize that everything that I go through, no matter how scary or so badly I wanna avoid it or painful, it is. There is a way to use that. Not just to help other people, but to grow me.

Carrie: That’s good. I’m glad you brought up imposter syndrome because I think that’s a thing that a lot of people who are in professional careers have and it’s something that people think well, okay. I’m really educated.

I’m functional. I mean, I go to work every day. Like, not just that, but like I’m my achiever. And they don’t necessarily always recognize that anxiety within themselves or that thought process that is really fueled by anxiety of I’m never quite good enough. I’ve always gotta kind of do better. There’s always more that I could be doing for myself.

Dr. Sherri: Yeah. And as a clinician, I think, you know, this, Carrie. You have a serious responsibility on your hands, right?

Carrie: Sure.

The Importance of Recognizing Vulnerability and Its Connection to Anxiety

Dr. Sherri: You’re dealing with the personal lives of people. And there is a level of, there’s an onus that comes with that to honor that, to be reverent of that. And I think that led to one of the things that I since learned about anxiety for myself and for other people I’ve now, since I left the field, I do some individual work called thought coaching. So I help people with their thoughts. But what I’ve learned is that there’s two things that happen with anxiety. One is that I had to know when I was most vulnerable.

Carrie: Oh, That’s good. Right.

Dr. Sherri: I had to be aware of that. When I was most vulnerable was when I was alone. And that was particularly problematic for me because I was single and didn’t have any children work was like, “Yay. I’m not alone.” And then when I got out of work, that’s all I was, was alone. And so there’s a tendency there to not want to be alone, but I had to be alone in my vulnerability in order to address it because if I avoided that. I was never gonna get to a place where I could address it. And to be clear, I didn’t do that work alone. I employed the help of some friends and things, but to know where your vulnerability is because if you’re gonna respond to it differently, you have to prepare. Yeah, right. And so my vulnerability was in the alone spaces.

So that’s the first thing that I needed to be aware of that helped me through that. And then the second thing was to understand that all anxiety, I don’t care how irrational it is. I don’t care how out of the blue, the thoughts are. They always stem from some nugget of truth. So going back to this, like, oh, you’re gonna be found out. You’re a fake, you’re a fraud. Like what? No, I’m actually a licensed clinical psychologist. Right. I have my doctorate. There’s nothing for me to be found out about. It related back to me to the negative truth of that onus of that responsibility that you have in that role.

And so I think about parents, mothers that I’ve worked with and they have responsibilities for their children. And very much of some of their thought worlds and the anxiety-related thoughts that they have are related to fears of something happening to their children. Right? Well, that is where that little nugget of truth. I have this responsibility here. So, whether that’s in a job or whatever it is, whatever kind of has your attention, has your focus, that’s also your vulnerability and the source of that kind of nugget of truth for the thoughts to spiral into total opposite of truth thoughts,

Carrie: Right? So it’s like teasing out. What is the actual negative truth, which for you was, I do have some responsibility to care for people. However, the fear piece was you’re gonna really screw somebody up. You’re really gonna mess this up, being able to separate those out and tease that out was helpful for you. It sounds like.

Replacing Anxiety with Truth: The Power of Thought Coaching

Dr. Sherri: Oh my goodness. Yeah, because then I was able to. When I gave myself permission to say, okay, this makes sense, but it doesn’t make sense that it’s gone, like so far to the left of where it was, right. So far from the needle of truth. But it makes sense now that is a source of my worry. And so then I could stop berating myself. “What’s wrong with you? You’re just crazy.” No, no, no, no, no. My mind just took this idea and kind of blew it way out of proportion almost without my permission. And so to be able to kind of step outside and see that is really what my saving grace was, because then what I did, I’ll share with you really quickly, what I did, which I didn’t know then would become my life’s work of learning to take the thoughts that we have in our minds and evaluate them for veracity. Are they real? Or are they lies? That’s what I say, are they truth or are they lies? And if they’re lies, okay, then they’re not serving me. Well, how do I replace that with truth? So what I did during that time, a friend of mine had asked me. He said, “Sherri, I want you to write down for me. I’m a woman of faith. I want you to write down all of God’s promises. And so I did, and I didn’t believe half of them at the time because I mean, there was stuff going on in my mind and so I wrote them all down. And so then what I did is I pulled out the language that I used with myself in those moments of anxiety, of heightened anxiety, the phrases that I said, you’re a fraud you’re gonna be found out. You don’t know what you’re doing, whatever the thoughts were.

I wrote all of those down on one side of the paper. And then on the opposite side of the paper, I wrote down the truths of what I knew to be true. Even if I didn’t. Yeah. Then what I did is every moment when I was having these anxiety thoughts instead of letting it spiral out of control, I immediately opened that book and I scanned down to the one that, the thought that came into my head and I looked to the right of it and I said aloud the corresponding truth and why was that important.

I didn’t know at the time that that was important that I did that, but it was important because I understood and came to realize this about anxiety. And depression or anything like that, something that was so liberating for me to know and something that just enlarged my compassion for people was when you’re in that space and people say “it’s all in your head or whatever. ” Yeah, you’re right. It is. And I can’t get out of there.

Carrie: I’m stuck. I’m trapped. Yeah.

Dr. Sherri: Right. And so what I learned was having a physical, external reminder was what I needed because when I was in that space, I couldn’t think of anything else. I needed something written down outside of my head that I could ground me to a degree because if left to my own thoughts, it was just gonna spiral out of control. Having that external reminder was key to fighting that battle of anxiety and that composition notebook fell apart Carrie. I mean, I opened that thing. I must have opened it every, when I was alone, like every minute because it was nonstop.

Open it, read it, open it, read it and then shut it down. Okay. I’m okay. Nope.

Carrie: You would ike carry it around with you?

Dr. Sherri: Everywhere. And I’ve carried that habit. With me to this day for different, like, I have sticky notes. I have everywhere. I have them in my car. I have them in my wallet, in my kitchen, in my desk, wherever of just different things to remind myself of.

I choose to speak kindly to myself. Different things to remind myself of. And I move them around because our brain habituates to the same thing in the same place. Anyway, besides that it took work, there were times when I thought, “oh my gosh, this isn’t working. It’s not stopping,” but I remained faithful to that work to doing something different.

And what I learned is since then, this is 10 years ago. My tension, my tendency towards anxiety that hasn’t gone away. But what’s changed has been my response to it. And I taught myself, I taught my brain a new habit. It’s possible. It takes a heck of a lot of work. And a lot of perseverance, but to me it’s so worth it. And now it’s a lifelong practice that I know not to believe the first thought that comes into my mind to evaluate it and then decide what to do with it. So that’s kind of led to my work now.

Carrie: That’s great. We had another guest on that talked about having kind of like a “911 note” on her phone. She’s a health coach now, but she was trying to lose weight. And so she had various things on her 911 note. Yes. You know, note that she would just pull up and there were scripture verses and positive affirmations and so forth. And so every time she kind of wanted to slip back into all patterned, she got that out and went through it and I think.

I appreciate what you’re saying about it being work because unfortunately, obviously, like we live in a society of instant gratification and to really do something like essentially what you’re talking about is thought replacement. It does. It takes effort and it takes repetition. You know, anytime we’re trying to learn something new like our brain is literally creating new pathways.

Yes. And that’s not gonna happen just overnight or, oh, well, I tried to do that like one or two times, and I just wasn’t feeling it and I don’t think it’s gonna work for me. That kind of lingo is like, I want people to hear, like, it is hard to work through your anxiety, but you can do it. You can, you can work through some of these things and learn new behaviors and new patterns and new coping skills with life to have like a better outcome.

Did you end up going to therapy for yourself? I’m just curious.

The Lifelong Practice: Working Through Anxiety and Building Resilience

Dr. Sherri: I did not. Well, that depends on how you look at it informally sure because I have a lot of colleagues. I did process this with the number of people. And I did not keep it to myself. I think that’s the other thing that’s so important is, and unfortunate in the realm of mental health, I get it. We have HIPAA laws, we have privacy laws. But I think an unfortunate side effect of that is the propagation that I’m not supposed to have these problems. We kind of hide it in these four walls behind closed doors. I can only talk about this with my therapist, or I’m not even gonna go to therapy because if I go to therapy, then I admit there’s something wrong with me. I think it’s about shedding light on the normalization of our human, emotional experiences and understanding that we all have them to varying degrees, to varying intensities, varying propensities and varying seasons. I don’t claim Carrie to be out of the anxiety woods. Right.

I think that’s the other kind of faulty belief is like, I’m over it, but that’s the trick about anxiety and or depression is it comes back when you least expect it, but there are new ways that you can respond to it. And so I, for me, It’s not believing that I’m never gonna be impacted by it again, instead, it’s believing that I’m gonna be able to not only just cope with it, but to use it to be stronger.

I actually have this little sticky note here. I have to read it to you. It says, “A bird sitting in a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking because his trust is not on the branch but in his own wings,

Carrie: I can get up and fly if this branch starts to crack it’s okay.

Dr. Sherri: That’s right.

Carrie: How did you make this shift from, you know, mental health treatment to getting involved in mental health prevention and starting a non- profit.

Dr. Sherri: A  very, very intense story short, which I think was birthed in this season of anxiety that I just described to you. But I started having trouble sleeping at night, quite literally. And I thought, man, I think that people need to know that if they’re having these feelings, there’s nothing wrong with them because I think that’s the other thing that gives.

The feeling more power than it should have is that I’m not supposed to feel this way. Right. And so I said, how can I take this message to people that aren’t gonna go see a shrink? Cause listen, in my line of work, I can tell you how many times I heard people literally say, you don’t go to see a shrink unless you wanna be crazy or right.

That’s what you do. I used to have people walking into my office like this, like hiding their face, cuz they were ashamed of. And so I thought, how can I start a conversation about these common human experiences and emotional experiences and thought experiences that we have to bring a new sense of enlightenment of helping people understand that they have this mental and emotional health t take care of and how they can do that. And so I stopped taking insurance. I said, I’m gonna stop diagnosing, I’m gonna stop treating and I’m gonna start educating people. So I just started speaking for free. Then I kind of made my way through some organizational consulting stuff, cuz those are curated, captive audiences to a degree and speaking at various civic organizations, networking groups, that kind of thing.

And then I did that for about four years and then I ealized mid-pandemic first year of the pandemic in 2020, how do I make this movement? Something bigger than me and how do I make it reach further than what I alone can do? And so then the idea was start a non-profit. I started the nonprofit thriving thoughts, global.

The whole idea is to educate people through conversation and principle and thought strategies and things like that. But to educate women in particular, because I believe they’re the ones who are the influencers that talk to their families, talk to their best friends, talk to their kids, right. So if we can teach women how to do this, then they’re the ones that are gonna have that ripple effect.

How to understand and not be so blown away by the thoughts and feelings that we have, but to use them to their benefit, to use them to their advantage. And so that’s what we’re doing there, and we’re doing that through several different means. We’re creating webinars that we’re offering monthly, we’re creating a new podcast that has like 10 to 15-minute stories of women who have gone through maybe a challenging experience and how they used one of our, what we call thriving thoughts, pillars, to learn how to grow through that, to learn, to respond differently through that, so that it strengthened them mentally and emotionally and relationally as well.

And then starting conversations about just some of the things that in our Western culture. I think our foundational influences in depression and anxiety that started at a very, very young age that have to do with comparison and measuring up and that sort of stuff. So just helping offering and alternative conversation about mental health and teaching people that there’s a way to protect their mental health, to build it and to prevent things like deep experiences of anxiety and depression.

Carrie: I think that’s what you’re talking about is interesting. This concept that everyone has at some point or another, like some type of mental health struggle. And really, if you walk into a counselor’s office, they could slap any kind of diagnosis on you because I mean, if you just read the DSM, you’re like, “oh, I, yeah. I’ve had that symptom” and you’re reading some other symptom. I mean, don’t ever read it because next thing you know, you know, you’re gonna be like, well, I have this

Dr. Sherri: land it’s ike, don’t go to WebMD if you have a headache.

Carrie: That’s interesting. And I think you are right that, I mean, I’m definitely a big proponent of therapy and I’ve had a lot of therapy myself. That’s been super helpful, but I do also recognize there are some people that they’re just not gonna do it. They’re never gonna do that kind of work. And maybe they can be reached a different way. So a lot of education. And what is your podcast gonna be called?

Dr. Sherri: It’s called the Fortified Woman podcast. It’s helping people to understand that it’s possible to look at situations differently. And when you change the way you look at them through your thoughts, your outcome is different. Am I the woman who always expects the worst of a situation? Because if that’s the case, I’m probably gonna experience. There’s all sorts of psychological evidence for this confirmation bias and priming of our cognitions and what we expect and that sort of thing. And so it’s about having these. Let me clarify. Treatment has value and prevention has value and both can coexist and they should. Right now, unfortunately, the predominant narrative around mental health. If you look at, you know, May is mental health awareness month, right? It’s really not mental health awareness month, at least in the way people talk about it. It’s really mental illness awareness month.

Let’s talk about those people who have those challenges. No, no, no, no, no, no. We are all those people. We all have these opportunities to go down a crisis hole. And so let’s start having those conversations. Let’s talk about not how to cope with life, but how to grow through life. And it really is an idea of thriving over surviving.

Carrie: I mean, at some point or another, we’re all gonna hit a difficult challenge in life and you don’t necessarily know what that’s gonna be or when that’s gonna happen. But I think like what you’re saying is you can allow those things to crush and break you, or you can say, okay, how can I work through this and become stronger and become better as a result of that?

Yes. Do you feel like your faith has really impacted you in regards to that. Just, I don’t know, thinking about things in the Bible related to perseverance and going through trials. And did you really look at that stuff when you were going through the heavy anxiety?

Dr. Sherri: I think for me, it was more about God’s design for us. There’s all these promises in the Bible like your promised peace, you’re promised an abundant life. And if we’re promised that, then what are we missing out on if we’re not experiencing that. And a lot of. Really boils down to the way we think. I mean, scripture has a lot of examples with think this, not that right. Think about things above versus things below. And, and when you do that, you can kind of extrapolate and say, oh, this thing below has a purpose.

It can have an eternal purpose or a relational purpose, a discipleship purpose. So, yes, my personal journey has been deeply informed by that, but also deeply informed by my clinical training and expertise and experiences with people that have been so formative that have just allowed me to catch a glimpse of the truth is that we were made in God’s image, every person.

And if we’re made in God’s image, when we have these feelings, there’s nothing wrong with. If you look at the life of Jesus, Jesus had all of these feelings. Well with one exception and that’s anxiety, that’s probably a different spiritual conversation, but there are things we can do. Take every thought captive, right? Evaluate every thought. Is it true? Is it a lie? What am I believing right now? What rabbit hole am I going down right now? And is there another trail for me to follow? So, yeah, my faith has definitely informed my personal growth, but also my professional growth and help giving me insight into what people are facing up here, what women in particular are dealing with in their thought world. It’s been a very deeply humbling and gratifying experience. And I would say that for the thriving thoughts, global movement, it’s certainly faith informed because I’m the founder of it. Mm-hmm but it’s not faith-based. Our desire is to propagate hope with regard to the way that you are naturally designed to be able to take thoughts captive without necessarily speaking Jesus over you.

Carrie:  If you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger self who was dealing with anxiety?

Dr. Sherri: This is probably not the most popular answer, but I really wouldn’t tell her anything. I would say, keep doing what you’re doing. You’re discovering the right path for you. I would just be on the sidelines kind of cheering like “good job. You’ve got this.” You can do this. You can figure this out. I think that comes from the space nobody can tell us exactly what to do. We can give ideas, we can give information, you can offer something, but really, it depends on it’s up to that person to pick it up. And so when they pick it up, then they kind of go, “oh, now I’ve got some interest,” but that really has to be a thing of the self.

I don’t know that anything I know for me, I’m a very stubborn person have been since I was a kid. Reframe that as tenacious, but if you tell me something, I’m not gonna learn by it. I have to do it.

Carrie: I think that’s interesting that if we don’t go through these struggles, it doesn’t get us to where we need to be. You know, that’s just part of the life process. And so maybe that encourages somebody today that like, you’re probably on the path of where you need to be and you just don’t necessarily know it right now. You’re probably like, what am I doing here? And why am I dealing with all this anxiety here? Why am I dealing with this? O C D instead of saying like, okay, well somehow this is all gonna weave together and I’ll look back. Yeah. It makes sense why I had that struggle and something good and something beautiful. Grew out of it in the end.

Dr. Sherri: Yeah. And I would say you don’t even have to wait for the end. One of the things it’s really, it’s about the process. We live in such a culture. You were referring to instant gratification, but we live in such a culture. That’s always looking for the success story. And I think the success story is not on the other side. The success is in the doing it’s in the right here right now like what am I doing right here right now? That’s the win? That’s the success? Am I doing something to learn in this moment? Am I doing something beneficial for myself? Am I doing something to grow right now? Or am I doing something to regress? because this is it. This is all we have is right here right now.

Carrie: And sometimes getting out of bed is a success. Yeah,

Dr. Sherri: Yeah absolutely. It’s what am I doing? Right. And I will say this, that particularly in Western culture, we have this underlying belief that suffering is not supposed to exist.

Carrie: It’s a very unhealthy belief for us to have. But

Dr. Sherri: But it is a cultural narrative. I read once there was a woman from Georgia, an academic from Georgia. I can’t think of her name at the moment, but she said we have an epidemic of people who are unhappy about being unhappy. We’re not supposed to be happy all the time. we can just start to talk about that, have that conversation, then we’re not gonna be so blown away when we’re happy.

Carrie: Thank you for sharing your personal story and as well as your insights, we’ll put the link to your nonprofit in the show notes.

Dr. Sherri: Thank you so much. It was a good conversation today.

Dr. Sherri: Thanks Carrie.

 Carrie: I think there were several great takeaways that came out of this show with Dr. Sherry so I hope that you picked up a nugget that will help you kind of on your journey of progress. If you haven’t checked out our website, yet we have a website hope for anxiety and O C d.com that I just wanna encourage you to look at. We’re trying to do some updates to that and make it more searchable. So more people will be able to find out about our show. On the front page, you can sign up for our email newsletter and get a free audio file of color breathing, which is something that I’ve used with clients and they’ve really enjoyed it. They kind of can help you relax and calm down when you’re utilizing something like deep breathing. Sometimes it helps to have a mental focus. So this gives you that mental focus .

Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling.

Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

78. Bible Study from “Should” to “Want” with Keith Ferrin

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 78. Bible Study from “Should” to “Want” with Keith Ferrin

I’m privileged to be interviewing  Keith Ferrin. Keith is a speaker and author, with a passion for helping people read, study, and enjoy the Bible.

  • How Keith developed his passion to help others read and enjoy the bible
  • How to internalize the scripture rather than memorize 
  • Reading the Bible from a relational perspective 
  • How can people fall in love and enjoy reading their Bible? 
  • Keith Ferrin’s Book and Online Courses

Related Resources:

Keith Ferrin

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 78. I am your host, Carrie Bock. And if you’re new to our show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. While we’ve had several episodes about prayer on the show. I realized that we really have not talked about reading the Bible and I ran into a guest.

That would be good for that. So today on the show, we have Keith Ferrin who is a public speaker, and author of how to enjoy reading your Bible among other books that he’s written. So welcome to the show.

Keith: Thanks for having me, Carrie. Good to be here.

Carrie: You’re really passionate about not just people reading the Bible because it’s, they should, or because it’s a have to, but you really want people to study the Bible because they want to, and because they enjoy it and it builds their relationship with God.

How did you get on that journey of helping other people?

Keith: It wasn’t quick where I can point to the actual day when it started though, cuz I was one of those kids. I was raised in the church and I found that I was kind of one of those typical people that I run into now, which is for most people who are Christians, they’re reading the Bible is the one aspect of their life with Jesus that is more of a should than.

That we want to gather in community and we want to hear good preaching and we want to sing and worship, and we want to make a difference in the world and the Bible comes up and we go, yeah, I should read that more. And that was me for the first 20 years. I was a Christian and the shift took place over the course of about a year or two.

And it began on April 18th of 93. And it was something that I was a full-time youth and worship pastor at a small church plant in Tacoma, Washington, a few days prior to that, I was having lunch with a buddy of mine who was a youth pastor at another church in town. And my friend mark said, Keith, I don’t know what to make of this.

There’s this guy coming to our church Sunday night, who has memorized the entire gospel of Luke. And he gets up on stage with no sets or props or costumes or anything. And he. Quotes it, and while he quotes it, he kind of acts it out. And I just remember thinking, okay, that is a lot. And are people really gonna listen to that for two hours?

It’s just my idea of memorized quoted scripture transported me back to when I was eight-year-old, a second grader scared in front of a big church, quoting John three 16 as fast as I. So memorized quoted scripture and good drama. Didn’t quite line up for me in my brain. I went honestly, no great kind of spiritual motivation.

I thought it’d be fascinating, but I thought I would kinda sneak out after a little while and because I didn’t think it would be good in engaging. And I tell people what happened for me that night is the living word of God went from being a phrase to a reality that I find as I travel around the world for most people, the living word of God is a phrase that they wish was a reality.

And it has nothing to do with whether we believe it’s true but believing something’s true and believing something’s alive and engaging and fun. Those are two very different things. No, not only did I stay through the whole thing, but I went up to this guy afterwards, his name is Bruce, and I just said, “Hey, they mentioned you were gonna be in the Seattle area for a week doing these presentations at different churches and colleges. What could I take you to lunch tomorrow?” And our lunch turned into picking him up at noon and dropping him back off at 9:00 PM. And we spent the whole day together and he just challenged me to soak in bigger chunks of scripture to sit down.

And he said this, if, what if instead of studying this little piece and this little piece and then memorizing this verse and this verse, he said, what if you just took a book of the Bible and you just soaked in it until you knew it, you just hung out there until you know it. And I had heard my whole life about studying the Bible and memorizing verses.

I’d never heard anybody talk about soaking in it and hanging out with it. So I just decided for the summer of 93, I would. Read Philippians every day, Philippians takes about 15, 16 minutes. If you’re just kind of reading at a normal rate of speed and I had read it, but it had always taken four days because it’s four chapters.

And I was told somewhere along the line, you’re supposed to read a chapter a day, but I realized after about day two or three, that I was finally reading this letter. The way that you would actually read a letter, if you sent me a letter and it was four pages and the first line on page one, I give. Thanks every time I remember I wouldn’t read page one and then go, okay, I’m gonna save page two for tomorrow.

and take

Carrie: four days to read the letter.

Keith: Yeah. And so you’d read it and then you’d read it again. Over the course of that summer, I realized that I was making more connections. I was understanding it better. I was enjoying it more. I was remembering it, it was sticking in my mind and it was just such an engaging process that, that honestly, I got to the end of the summer and that I pretty much knew the whole thing, word for word without ever really trying because I had just read it 45 or 50 times. Think of the number of movie lines, you know, or song lyrics, you know, that you watched the movie or heard the song a bunch of times and you didn’t even try to memorize it. You just know it now.

And so that’s actually when I stopped even using the word memorize and started using the word internalized, cuz it was really knowing it, understanding it and memorization was kind of a small piece. Yeah.

Carrie: Can we camp out on that for a moment? Because I like that internalize versus memorize. Like when you think about memorizing something, you’re essentially regurgitating the material, right?

Like, oh, I memorized this line and then I’m saying it back to somebody talk about like the internalizing. What’s the difference there?

Keith: The essence of it can be summed up in kind of this sentence. Internalizing is about knowing the word and memorizing is about knowing the words. Ah, and so that idea, if you’ve internalized something, then you can probably quote it.

I mean, whether you can kind of perform it like Bruce did. And like, quite honestly, now I do, that’s a different level of work. I mean, to get it something stage ready, but to be able to have it where you can say it, it can come to your God can bring it to your mind. Whenever he wants to that when I’ve internalized something, if I’ve memorized something, then I don’t know that just by the fact of me being able to quote.

I don’t know that that’s transforming me to be more like Jesus or that’s really saturating my mind. But if I have internalized it, then I feel like when I had done that with Philippians and then the next year in 94, I made one new year’s resolution to internalize the gospel of John. I just wanted to read Bible. I wanted the life of Jesus to just saturate my life and mind.

And so I just read the gospel, John over and over again until I had it internalized. And when I did that, oh, and that’s why I say this process kind of took a year or two for. That as I had Philippians kind of both hidden in my heart and my mind, which is really what I think of as internalization and the gospel, John as well.

I understood over the course of the next year or two, what meditating on scripture is all about because you see things throughout scripture, whether it’s Psalm 1:19 or whether it’s Joshua. the do not let this book of the law depart from your mouth meditate. Day and night the word meditation and meditate on and think about and ponder and remember are woven all throughout scripture.

And I realized for the first time in 93 and 94 and into 95, what that was like because I could actually think about scripture. At times other than when I had my Bible open. Right? Yeah. I mean, once I had hidden it in both my heart and my head, I understood it and I knew it kind of word for word knew it, then God could bring it to my mind whenever he wanted, I could be walking down the street, whether it’s I needed a word of correction or comfort or encouragement or inspiration or whatever it is that you know, or whether I was talking to somebody else and they needed that.

I just felt like it was much more. Relational and conversational. And that’s what happened when internalized. And so I just found that all growing up, I tell people it’s just interesting that we, the first verse we typically have kids memorized in Sunday. School is John three 16, man. It’s a good one.

That’s a good place to start. But typically the second one is in Psalm one 19, where it says, I have hidden your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you. And we do that one, but typically when we talk. Actually knowing the word, we’re not talking about hiding it in our heart. We’re talking about hiding it in our head.

And so the second verse we teach kids is really about hiding it in our heart, but we don’t frequently equip them or ourselves to really build that understanding. And that love for God’s word. Into our memorization process. And I think when we combine those two, that’s where internalization happens. Yeah.

Carrie: I’m just kind of processing things from my own childhood. I think, cuz I grew up in the church and there was this element of almost like studying the Bible, like a school textbook mm-hmm but you were just supposed to know that you were supposed to read the Bible and nobody really sat down and said, this is how you read the Bible.

Or if you did, you may have gotten like a devotional book or two, and then it’s like, okay, well, I guess I’m supposed to go out and buy another devotional, or now you can there’s apps, you know? Okay. Well, I guess I’ll go get another devotional on the app. And one of the struggles I always had with those was you had two or three verses and then someone’s life story was really the rest of it.

And there are plenty of devotionals out there like that. And some of them there’s a time and a season for some of those. But it doesn’t really help you get into the word of God, right? Like you’re saying if you’re not actually reading the words of God and getting that in your head. I had a conversation with my husband a while back where I said, I have such a hard time memorizing scripture.

Like I really wanna know what it says, and I wanna be able to quote it. And he just really encouraged me not to get so hung up on saying it word for word, cuz I’m like, there’s these really long sentences in the Bible. And even if you try to break it down by phrase and it’s not how we typically talk or communicate.

And he said, “yeah, but it’s more important that you understand the essence of the scripture of what it is speaking to you rather than just being able to quote it back.” And I was like, “oh yeah, you’re right on that one. Reading the Bible like it was intended to be reading the letters. It was a letter really soaking in and reading some of the same things over and over.

How else can people really fall in love and enjoy reading their Bible?

Keith: That’s what I spend hours writing things and all that, but I’ll give you a couple of kind of nuggets. One is really what I call our position. You can remember these two by thinking of your position and your process. Your position is really your mindset, your approach to scripture.

I think that so often, and you just alluded to this, that so often when we’re 11, 12, 13, 14, we’re supposed to start reading the Bible on our own and having this quiet time or whatever it is, we are almost taught the Bible like a textbook and we’re approaching. Informationally. And I say, if your position is relational, instead of informational, yeah.

It will change everything. So many of us, we breed the Bible to learn what God wants us to know, so we can do what he wants us to do and live a life that honors and glorifies him. And that all sounds well and good, except it’s not the purpose of the Bible. The purpose of the Bible is the only book that’s ever been written with the purpose of drawing you into a relationship with its author.

The purpose of the Bible is relational. And I think let’s say that you and your husband moved here to the Seattle area and became friends with Carrie and me. And we said that we were gonna get together for dinner once a. Over the course of those weeks to come, we would learn things about each other. I’m not saying there’s not information in the Bible.

We would learn information about each other. And how did you and your husband meet and how long have you been married? Do you have kids and where are the different places you’ve lived and what do you do for work? And what do you like to listen to? I mean, we’d learn tons of information about each other, but imagine.

You and your husband coming to our house the first week and my wife and I pull out our notepads and across the top, it says, here are 54 questions. We need to ask Carrie and her husband. So if they’re gonna be our friends. And so how did you meet? Do you have any kids? How long have you been married? When did he brought you to Seattle?

What do you do for fun? What sports do you like? What music do you like? What tech do you like? What blah, blah, blah. You and your husband might be polite, but on the way home, you’re talking about how can we make sure we never have to come.

Carrie: Super awkward dinner.

Keith: I think that so often we go to the Bible and we’re taught, read what it says and figure out what it means and how it’s gonna apply.

And everything is kind of in that mindset. And I’m not saying those are bad questions, but if those are the only questions, I don’t think it leads to enjoying the Bible. Whereas the irony is that the more relational our approach, the more. Information will actually learn. I mean, think of the people that you’ve learned the most from the people that can correct your mindset, your attitude, when it’s off, that can comfort you the best.

I mean, those are also the people that you watch movies with and have a pizza with. And the people that you’re in deepest relationship with are the people who you learn the most from and who comfort you the best. We know that as people. And I think that if God is our heavenly father, why do we think that every day he wants to teach us something and that some days he just doesn’t wanna play with us and just enjoy the relationship.

And so there’s that relational mindset that I think is a huge piece of that. And that’s, that’s what I call. And kind of what’s our position as we come to the Bible. And the second is really the process and some of what I’ve already mentioned about kind of reading a big chunk that certainly falls into the process piece.

But what I realized is I was reading Philippians that, you know, every day for that summer, and then I. Read the gospel of John the next year. And I didn’t read that. Obviously, those two books are different. Philippians takes 15 minutes and John takes a little bit less than two hours. So when I was reading John during 94, that wasn’t something where I was reading the whole gospel every day.

I bet in the year there were probably two or three days outta the whole year where I sat down for two hours and just read the whole thing. Most days I’d read for 30 minutes or something like. But over the course of that 93, 94 timeframes, I kind of accidentally put some things together, which is realizing that when we line up our process of Bible study with how God has wired our brains to naturally and enjoyably learn anything, it changes everything that think of anything that, you know, anybody that’s listening to this podcast, think of something that you know really well and that you.

I don’t care whether it’s sports or music or cooking or technology, whatever it is, I’m guessing that you learned it from the general to the specific. You didn’t learn a detail and then add a little detail and then add a little detail. I love to cook Italian food, but if I’m gonna teach somebody how to cook Italian food, the first lesson is not gonna be all of the uses for basil.

If you’re gonna cook Italian food, you should probably know something about basil, but it’s not the first lesson. Right. And approaching the Bible from the general to the specific is 180 degrees opposite from how most of what I was taught the first 25 years, I was a Christian about how to study the. Yeah, analogy that frequently helps this idea make sense for people is I call it the movie analogy that if you and I, when your husband and you come over and we’re hanging out and we decide, let’s say that the four of us are gonna watch a movie.

I mean, imagine if after seeing one, I paused the movie and said, let’s discuss. And then we watched scene two and I paused it again and said, let’s discuss, wouldn’t be long before you and your husband would be like, just put the remote down. Let’s watch the movie after we’ve watched the movie. If you want to talk about a scene or a character or a plot twist or something like that, we can have a specific conversation, but we kind of wanna watch the movie first.

And I think from a process standpoint, one of the reasons that so many people are confused by the Bible, they’re bored by the Bible. They don’t remember what they read in the morning. By two o’clock in the afternoon is because we’re studying the Bible. Like we’re studying the scenes of a movie. We’ve never watched.

We know what Philippians four 13, I can do everything through him who gives me strength. We know what that means, but if I say what’s Philippians about we go, I don’t know. And I’ve fought the good fight. I’ve finished the race. I’ve kept the faith. We’ve heard sermons on that and we’ve seen it written about, and we’ve seen blog posts on it and all this kind of stuff.

And we don’t even know what book that’s in. Let alone. It’s second Timothy, by the way. So we don’t know what second Timothy’s about. We don’t know what was going on with Paul at the time. Whereas I tell people if you took second Timothy, which is that’s even shorter than Philippians, it’s four chapters, but they’re shorter chapters.

So it’ll take you probably 12 minutes. If you took second Timothy and you read second Timothy in its entirety every day for a month, and then you studied it verse by verse. After that you’d never read. I fought the good fight. I finished the race. I’ve kept the faith the same. Because when you got to that, which is toward halfway through chapter four, you’d have such an understanding of the whole picture.

Kinda like again, going back to the movies that if you’ve ever heard somebody, a speaker, whether it’s your, a pastor or just another speaker, that’s used a movie clip in their speaking and you see the movie clip. If you haven’t seen the movie, that movie clip, you can still kind of be inspired by it, or you might learn something or whatever.

But it’s nowhere near as rich an experience as if you’ve seen the movie that the clip comes from, because then when you see that clip, the whole movie floods back. Right? Right. So from a process standpoint, when we read more of it, when we read bigger chunks and when we then read that again and again, and soak in one, when we devote a month or two months or something like that, to reading the Bible and getting kind of the big picture overview.

And then we naturally move to the next place that we move, which is then looking at smaller pieces, looking at a chapter and then looking at a paragraph or one theme or something like that. And you’ll understand it because then you’re looking at that little detail in the context of the whole, which is how anything that we know deeply never met a musician that learns a song, one measure at a.

Carrie: I think you’re really talking about finding out about the character of God, which can only be found out over time. You can’t just like, I can’t know my husband all at once. I knew his character by watching his actions day by day by day and watching how he interacted with other people and watching how he interacted with me.

The words that he said, did they line up with what he actually did and those types of things. And I feel like that’s what we have to do with the Bible. We can’t know the character of God by one verse or one chapter or even one book. We have to really learn over time as we walk with him. And as we’re approaching the scripture that way, and then you have the surprises along the way.

I was talking one time and somehow we got on the conversation about milking cows mm-hmm and Steve, my husband. Oh, I’ve milked a cow. And I was like, you’ve milked a cow. I was like, I’ve never heard this story. You gotta tell me about that. he was like, well, yeah, I was, I had like ag because we grew up about an hour away from each other, but his area is not that way now, but it was a little bit more rural back then.

And I was in a little bit more of a suburb. So even though my mom milked cows growing up in Tennessee, I had never milked a cow. So I found this story very fascinating. Right. Anyway, I digress, but I think it helps us with situations. As we’re trying to walk on this earth when we can go back and point to not just, like you said, specific words, but, okay. What is the character of God through the Bible? That’s awesome.

Keith: Frequently people say, how do you go about studying the Bible? What do you do? And I don’t have time to kind of teach them my whole process of something. I’d boil things down to. Really asking four questions. And the first that you can take for any passage that you have, and the first question is that character of God, well, you know, what is this passage say about who God is?

And then looking at that, what does this passage say about what God has done? The third is what does this passage say about who I am or what I have or whatever, because of who God is and what he’s done. And then the fourth is really I’ve switched. It used to be kind of that one that I was raised on, which is what are you going to apply?

What’s your application? And I say, I’ve switched it a little bit to say, what is my response? Because I think sometimes that response is to apply something. Sometimes that response is to change your thinking or to correct something or whatever, or get rid of something or. Whatever, but sometimes our response is just to worship.

Sometimes our response is just to sit in silence. Sometimes our response is just to be amazed at how cool the story was. We just read. I think that when our question is, how can I apply this? Then that puts us in an informational mindset. Whereas if we say, what is my response? God may have something to teach you and have something for you to apply.

And if that’s the case, then apply it. But God may also just want to that particular day. Reveal something about just how much he loves you. And your response is to say, thank you. And then to go through the rest of your day. I think that idea of we need to learn something every day is just not bad. It’s just misdirected.

And

Carrie: I think that switching it from the concept of, I need to learn something versus I need to maybe experience the word of God today. I don’t know if that’s a good word to use there. It really takes down some of that intimidation that I think people have about approaching the Bible almost like they think they have to have a degree or something to learn from it.

But a lot of the Bible was written by some people that were educated and some people that were not formally educated. So just kind of going back even to the authors, the fact that you would have to approach it from an academic. Oh, I went to school for it is a little ridiculous for sure.

Keith: Absolutely.

Couldn’t agree.

Carrie: okay. Tell us a little bit about what’s coming up for you as far as books, or I know that you do speaking engagements. How can people find you as well?

Keith: Well the easiest way is keithferrin.com is my blog. Some of the things that we’ve talked about today, I mean, relational Bible study. Got a course on that. If you just search relational Bible study or just go to relational Bible study.com, that will take you. If that kind of how to study the Bible, if that’s something you struggle with or that internalized just last September recorded a brand new online course, teaching people my process of internalization and kind of how to hide it in your head and your heart.

And so keithferrincom/internalize is how to find that. The main thing, as far as books goes, it’s been fun. I have something called the Bible life community, which I started two weeks after the pandemic started for I’d had it in my mind for a couple years, but once all my speaking engagements were canceled and I had a bunch of time on my hands, I finally created this kind of online Bible study community.

I write a new Bible study. Every month. And sometimes it’s one month study. Sometimes it’s two months. Sometimes it’s a book study. Sometimes it’s a topic, things like that. But I guide people through that. We discuss it together in community. We have some live conversations over zoom and all that. That’s been really fun and I’ve taken the last several of these studies and turned them into books that, so it’s been crazy cuz I released six books in 20 years and then four books in the last six.

Just taking these Bible studies. And since they’re right there and I’ve been writing them anyway, I just turned them into these books that I call the scripture journey series. And so two of them have been topical, advent and lent when we walked the first one was advent coming up to Christmas and then lent going up to Easter.

And we did a book study on the book of Ephesians. Book study on the book of first Peter, if you go to Amazon and you search on my name, one of the things you’ll see there and all the covers kind of look similar, but there’s a series of books called the scripture journey series that are kind of these combinations of the utilizing the process that we’ve talked about, but also having a devotional aspect to it.

So a lot of small groups and churches and things like that will take some of those because most of them are 40-day scripture journeys is what I call ’em and those have been really fun to see people walk through those.

Carrie: You did a blog post that I saw on your website about messing up during one of your talks. It was great.

Keith: That was the craziest because as you know, as I kind of, we didn’t talk a ton about, but as I alluded to, I saw Bruce do the gospel of Luke and then started three years later in March of 96, I started performing in quotes, the gospel of John, but then also present different books of the Bible, short books about the way that he did with Luke.

So I did that. I’ve been doing that for 26 years of kind of doing the biblical storytelling. It was last fall. I think that was all the week. It was, I think it was the weekend after Thanksgiving or something like that. And I’d been presenting John for a quarter century. I’ve done a ton and there was a church that’s local here in Seattle.

I’ve spoken at this church probably 20 times friends with the pastor and they’re preaching through John. So they had me take two Sundays in a. Present John one through five as the sermon. Just no preaching. Just get up, present John one through five and just kind of the watching the movie, if you will.

And then the next Sunday, six through 10. And I mean, you talk about having brain freezes as you saw from the clip, the clip that is on my website that you saw. That was from the second service, which went better. The first service was even worse than the clips that you saw, but I thought let’s just throw it out there.

And some of the conversations that led to, and just the transparency were all a mess. Yeah. We all have days that are good and days that are bad. And we have days that we take things that we’ve known and that we’ve done well and everything. And some days, those things that we’re good at that we’ve done well, that we’ve been solid on before.

Some days, even that’s messy. And just realizing that as one of my friends calls it, we’re all a glorious mess. So it’s just be gloriously messy together.

Carrie: Yeah. And just the idea that God can use you, no matter what your mess has been or is in the present. I just, I love that concept. So this piece of the podcast and everything certainly is not perfect, but we strive to get it better.

A little at a. All right. Well, thank you so much for talking with us about this today. Its pleasure. It’s been very interesting for me and eye-opening. Just thinking about my own process and what I would like to do maybe differently in what I can try. It was helpful.

Keith: Thanks for having me.

Carrie: I have to say that since interviewing Keith, I made this decision to read through first Peter over and over again as our pastor is preaching through first Peter right now. So he does one chapter a week and I haven’t necessarily done it every single day, but I’ve read through several times and it’s been interesting to see.

The different themes and the different things that stick out to me on different days, kind of seeing that as a whole entity, instead of just broken down into different chapters or different verses. One thing that we didn’t mention in this episode that I just wanted to throw here in the end is that the Bible has some quite crazy stories in the old Testa.

To put it mildly. If you read those things, you’re like, what in the world just happened right now? It definitely makes for some interesting reading. Granted, there are some kind of boring parts of the old Testament when you get into the genealogies, but some of the stories in there. If you’ve never read, ’em are pretty amazing.

If you like this episode and you want to find out more about what’s going on with the podcast, you can subscribe to our newsletter. It goes out weekly on wednesdays@hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum, Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Carrie and her husband Steve are excited to bring you a bonus episode on EMDR Intensive Therapy. 

  • What is EMDR Intensive Therapy and what are the issues it can help with?
  • What happens in an EMDR Intensive Therapy session?  
  • How long does the session usually last?
  • How to receive EMDR Intensive Therapy?

If you want to find out more about intensive therapy, go to https://www.bythewellcounseling.com/intensivetherapy/

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to a very special episode of Hope for Anxiety and OCD. This is a bonus episode that I wanted to get out to you earlier than putting it kind of in the lineup. Since we have several episodes that are already planned out for the next couple of months. And I have my amazing husband, Steve here with me. Say Hi Steve.

Steve: Hey

Carrie: Glad to have you here. You interviewed me once before on the show for episode 33 of What it’s like to be a Counselor. And I thought it would be good for you to interview me on our today’s topic, which is EMDR intensive therapy. Since it’s something that you’re not familiar with. When I get in the zone and tend to talk about therapy things, I don’t tend to always explain them for the lay audience to understand and break it down very well. So I thought it would be good. And you can ask little filler questions here and there that people might be wondering about, or you might be wondering about.

What is EMDR Intensive Therapy

Steve: Okay. My first question is what is an EMDR intensive therapy session?

Carrie: This is a session that is longer than a typical therapy session. It occurs either for a half day of three hours or a whole day, which is six hours with a lunch break and some small breaks in between it’s for a very specific purpose.

So someone that’s trying to achieve a very specific counseling. It may be that they know, for example, that they’ve experienced some sexual abuse that is getting in the way of their relationship with their spouse. Now it may be a situation where they’re trying to overcome a phobia or a situation where maybe they just know they have a lot of trauma.

They’re going to need to process in a sense, kinda wanna get a kickstart to that process. Another way we use an intensive therapy session for say anxiety or even possibly OCD is to work on some day-to-day level coping skills that people could use as maybe a baseline for them. So it doesn’t have to be used to process trauma.

The idea behind it is to have dedicated time and dedicated space to work on a very specific issue.

Steve: A long therapy session that seems like it might be kind of exhausting.

Carrie: It can be tiring, but it just depends on how you break up the day. Usually what we’ll do is we’ll have kind of a introductory period.

So to explain a little bit deeper, these are situations where I may have been working with someone for. Session a few sessions and they make a decision to do an intensive, or it could be that somebody wants to travel in from out of state and do even multiple days with me, which I would just have to make sure that I had all of the office space available during those days and times.

If people are traveling in and I haven’t met them before the structure, obviously of the day is gonna be a little bit different because there’s going to be a chunk where we’ll have to do a little bit of more history taking kind of getting a clear picture of the problem. Then we can go in and make an EMDR treatment plan.

Basically identifying what memories we need to target that are contributing to their present-day issues. When we go back and we reprocess those memories. In EMDR, we look at the past and then we look at how that’s affecting and present, and then how that person would like to respond in the future.

Typically, with a more condensed intensive session, we would probably process the worst memory that came up on that treatment plan. And the first memory that came up on that treatment plan, sometimes those end up being the same memory. If it’s a more recent traumatic event, we would structure it so that we would really just be focused on that recent traumatic event.

There’s restricted protocols with EMDR to help you process more like within the past month type of trauma. If we were able to get someone in that quickly, So there’s lots of different ways that we can structure it with, uh, phobia, for example, we can structure, you know, starting with, when did the phobia first occur process?

You know, usually like if, if somebody was bit by a dog, for example, when they were a child, they’re afraid of dogs, now we could go back and we could target that memory where they bit by the dog. Then we can look at potentially exposures and desensitizing the present triggers. So we could show them a picture of a dog.

How to stressing is that to you do some EMDR surrounding that as a present issue, we could, you know, show them a video of a dog. There’s different things that we could kind of target. I probably wouldn’t have a live dog, but, you know, I would encourage at some point or another, eventually, them working up to that process as kind of gradual exposure.

It’s kind of a little bit hard to get a live dog in a counseling office sometimes, but you understand where I’m coming from. There’s so many different ways that we can approach things depending on what the person’s presenting issue is. For example, panic attacks. If someone had a history of panic attacks that they would like to focus on resolving, we can often process their first panic attack and their worst panic attack, their most recent get that done in one day. And that will show significant symptom relief for them, preventing them from having future panic attacks.

Steve: Why did you decide to start offering intensive therapy?

Carrie: That’s a really great question. I was actually encouraged by two of my mentors. One of them was Laura Mullis who we had on the show on episode 21, Healing from Childhood Wounds: The key to Unlocking Anxiety. Laura, as well as one of my other EMDR mentors, Alice Strickland had really asked me, first of all, was I doing intensive therapy? And then if I wasn’t interested in doing it because sometimes they have cases they may not be able to take on or might not be the best fit for them that they may want to refer to me. So that was part of it. And the other reason was after doing a few with my clients, kind of during the COVID period online, I did some three-hour sessions with clients where we took kind of a 15-minute break in the middle to target very specific EMDR memories that they wanted to work on.

There’s a few problems that can come up, like in terms of weekly therapy, someone comes in and they may really wanna work through certain issues in their life. But then as we know, like life just happens, you know, then they come in next week and something’s happened with one of their kids or their coworker was really mean to them. Or, you know, somebody went off on them as they were driving their car. I don’t know. And they just feel like, okay, I need to really process what was going on in the present.

A lot of times we can tie that back into how that was a trauma trigger and sometimes work through some of those things. And that can be very helpful. Oftentimes, what I see is that we end up delaying the EMDR treatment process because a lot of times we’re having to go back and forth between working on these present issues and then working on past issues.

If we can devote specific time to working on the past issues. A lot of the present issues will be resolved because they won’t continuously be getting triggered by the same stuff over and over again, in these challenging relationships or situations. So much of therapy too is spent on helping people develop skills to manage their day-to-day present.

And like I said, if we can go back and just kind of clear out some of the junk, there will be less that they have to manage in the present, not to say that they won’t have anything. Going on, but at least it’ll get the symptoms maybe more to a manageable level. Once the trauma is resolved. So it’s really a combination of a couple of different things.

Sometimes another issue that we have in terms of processing memories with EMDR is that we will take some time at the beginning of the session to get the client into the memory to say, okay, now, as you bring up that memory right now, how distressing is it? Where do you feel it in your body? Even before we do that, the client will come in. They’ll say, “Well, you know, I had, after last session I had a nightmare” or they may be updating me on symptoms. Either of the symptom got better or symptoms got worse. That’s helpful for me to kind of know and guide the process as to where we need to go to next. That takes a little bit of a chunk of time, say that takes 10 to 15 minutes. And then at the end of the session, we really wanna make sure that people have time to calm down that they have time to contain, especially if they didn’t finish processing the memory. So then we’re taking another, you know, let’s say 10 minutes to say, “okay, like, you know, kind of ground, put your feet on the floor, take a deep breath, contain the memory.”

No, it doesn’t have to leave you here. When you walk out the door today, go to your safe place, whatever. There’s a lot of different ways we can do that. But the point is, is that we’re taking that chunk of time in the beginning of the session. And we’re taking that chunk of time at the end of the session, whereas in an intensive, you don’t have to do that because you’re not having those times in between sessions.

You’re actually saving time and energy and not interrupt that trauma work because the brain doesn’t know, “oh, wow. I only have about, you know, 30 minutes to work through this.” Your brain doesn’t know that. So it’s gonna kind of continue to be working on things even after that session is over, which can sometimes be distressing for people.

What are the Issues EMDR Intensive Therapy Can Help with?

Steve: Okay. What are some of the issues that you’ve seen be helped by intensive therapy.

Carrie: I talked about some of them previously, things like phobias, panic attacks, very specific recent trauma, definitely anything that we would consider to be a single incident trauma, not like, you know, I’ve had a whole lifetime of childhood, but Hey, my childhood was pretty stable and things were going well.

And then this thing kind of just completely shifted me off track, near-death experience or illness, injury, car accident, things like that. I know that you and I had talked about, even my experience in episode 10 of really building up the confidence again, to be able to go out dating after my divorce, I had had quite a bit of therapy and there were just kind of some lingering remaining things that I needed to process through. And I really needed to do that from a somatic body sense, rather than just talking about it because I had already talked nausea about it. So that’s another area. Theoretically, I could have done an intensive on for myself. I didn’t, but I went at probably 10 sessions had I had an intensive opportunity.

I might have been able to get that, that work done and say probably two days, you know, instead of 10 sessions over, I was probably going every other week. So you think about that if you’re going every other week to therapy too, that’s about say five months that it took me to get through that process. I know.

A lot of times, people are very interested in today’s day and age of getting better, and faster. We have such a microwave generation. This can be good and bad. Sometimes these situations work and you can find relief faster. It’s not for every person or every situation, but as you can see, there are lots of different ways that we can apply the intensive therapy model to help people get relief. Another example would be for someone who’s having difficulties setting boundaries. Oftentimes this relates back to either like very strong authoritative personalities in their childhood or just people were straight up abusive and crossed their boundaries.

So if we can go back to those places, help them process through that realize like, you know, you’re not a child in this dynamic anymore. This is an adult-to-adult dynamic. You have a right, like your needs are important, whereas they weren’t important. Then your values and your desires are important. And you have that takes a certain level of self-confidence to set a boundary, right. To be firm with. So that is something that we could target in an intensive, really like creating a treatment plan surrounding the difficulty with setting boundaries. A lot of times I see people who have emotional trauma that is feeding into disordered type eating, even though I don’t work with eating disorders.

So I kind of wanna make that clarification if you have serious eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia that I’m not saying that this type of intensive therapy is for you, but for people who, for example, would say, “Hey, I’m an emotional eater. I really want to eat healthy. I’m trying, I may have been on every diet under the sun. But just the way that I grew up, there was a lot of shame surrounding food, or there was even abuse situations involving food resolving.” Some of that trauma will shift the way that people approach food in the present. That’s one, depending on how much is back there, they may need a little bit more than one day. It just kind of depends. And we have to create a plan together. I think that’s, what’s really important. Intensives is having a very specific plan and intention that the client and I are both on the same page about what they’re wanting to accomplish so that there’s no confusion and that we stay very focused and targeted for that limited amount of time.

Steve: So who would not be appropriate for intensive therapy?

Carrie: If someone has a serious problem where they may need a higher level of treatment, such as a serious addiction, addictions are typically not something that I worked with. I’ve worked with a lot of people who had an addiction in their past, say a few years ago, and they’re trying to resolve the trauma that led to the initial addiction.

I do work with several clients that have experienced that, but we really want people who are clean and sober to be engaging in this work. I mentioned eating disorders. If somebody has a really serious eating disorder and where they need to be in some kind of hospital or treatment program, if someone finds that they’re dissociating a lot, they’re disconnecting from reality due to their trauma.

They’re losing a lot of periods of time or they don’t have any connection to their body or their emotional experience. Now I will say that if there’s a client that’s really having difficulty connecting to their body or to their emotional experience if they wanted to do an intensive, what we would really focus on is not processing the trauma, but we would more focus on developing that body awareness, developing that emotional awareness. Doing a lot of what we would call resourcing activities, which would be trauma preparation that may be incredibly valuable for that person to do that, and may help them really cope better in the present with that. But I wouldn’t say that they need to come in and, and just start processing trauma because they’re not gonna be able to do that.

You really have to be connected to your mind, your body and your emotions in order to benefit from EMDR, having. I’ve worked with a ton of clients that don’t have all of those things online. And so our first step in therapy is really building those up before they can go through and process trauma. If somebody has a personality disorder or something just very serious going on, then they’re probably not appropriate for intensive therapy.

Steve: And my last question is, are these covered by insurance?

Carrie: They are not. We don’t have a code for this type of intensive therapy session that we could code for insurance. I actually even asked Cigna the insurance that I work with and they, you know, I’m sure if we were sitting face to face, the lady would’ve looked at me, like I had four eyes.

I was trying to explain it to her, but she was just kind of like, “No.” They are used to typical things like individual therapy, group therapy and things that there are codes for. This is not something we can code and charge insurance for. It’s really more for someone who is looking to make an investment in their mental health and they, they know kind of what they want.

And they realize that this pathway is going to save them, you know, time, energy, and money. It’s hard for people to. Sometimes to coming to weekly therapy, they may get started with it, or they may start coming every other week and then childcare becomes a problem or work is adding on more responsibilities.

I can’t get off in time. There’s all kinds of barriers that can happen in terms of people getting the therapy that they need on a consistent ongoing basis. Sometimes there’s certain time limited situations where someone will say. I know I’m going to be moving or going out of the country. And I know this is some, or I’m getting married.

This is just something that I know I wanna resolve before. Maybe a major life event happens as well. And so these people are kinda willing to take that leap and invest in this process. And so also just really great for people who have had a lot of therapy, haven’t been able to get their goals achieved that they wanted to, but feel like this would be something that would help them just as a different approach.

Thank you, Steve, for helping me out by asking some of these questions and allowing me to explain intensive EMDR therapy.

Steve: Yeah. You’re welcome. And glad to be here once again. And it’s actually really good for me to hear that I got to learn something, so it’s good.

How to Receive EMDR Intensive Therapy

Carrie: Yeah. And if people would like to find out more about intensive therapy, they can go to www.bythewellcounseling.com./intensive therapy. If you get to the homepage By the Well Counseling, there’s also a button that you can click on for intensive therapy. There’s a form on the webpage that I’ll ask that you fill out in order to be able to, for us to have a, hopefully, a short video chat, where we can have a consultation, where we can talk about what you’re hoping to get out of the intensive, and I can share whether or not I think that that would be appropriate for you.

It’s really important that we’re able to make sure that you’re gonna be getting what you need from this modality if you’re investing the time and money in it. So I want to take a little time to make sure that that you’re appropriate and that this is appropriate for you kind of, as we talk through some of those things.

One thing that I’m really excited about with this intensive therapy opportunity is that I get a lot of inquiries from the people who listen to the podcast and they say, “Hey, I know that you do online therapy. Can you see me?” But they live out of State. They may live in Kentucky or Connecticut or wherever, and I can’t see them online due to licensure laws and limitations. I’m only licensed in Tennessee right now to see people there. So this will allow people to be able to travel if that’s something that they’re interested in and receive therapy from me. So that was kind of another contribution of why I wanted to do this, that I didn’t mention. Earlier, thank you so much to everyone who is listening to this podcast right now, I will tell you the very first people who heard about the intensive opportunity were our email subscribers.

And Steve, why should you get on our email list for the hope for anxiety and OCD podcast?

Steve: We’re giving away. T-shirts

Carrie: Yeah, Steve, it was actually your idea to start giving away t-shirts to encourage people to subscribe to the podcast newsletter. So since we have currently, as we’re recording 73 email subscribers, I want you to help me pick our first t-shirt winner by people who’ve already subscribed to the newsletter.

So pick a number between 1 and 70.

Steve: I’m gonna go with 14. It looks like Lisa D is our winner. Congratulations, Lisa!

Carrie: She is our 14th email subscriber. I will be emailing Lisa to let her know that she has won a t-shirt and once I get her size and address back, we will go ahead and ship that out.

You also get to pick which color shirt that you want. And if you are not a t-shirt winner this time, because you are not subscribed to our email list, then hop on the email list. We don’t have that far to get from 73 to a hundred. Right Steve?

Steve: That’s right.

Carrie: So once we get to a hundred, I will be giving out another t-shirt for somebody in between the 50 and 100 mark and maybe about every 50 subscribers or so we will give away a t-shirt.

I would love to have 500 subscribers on the email list. That would be amazing. So it’s a great way for you to know firsthand what’s going on with me and what’s going on with the Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast. You can subscribe by going to our website, hopeforanxietyandocd.com. You are certainly welcome to go through our website and buy one, If you are really itching for some podcast merchandise. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. And I hope to hear from some of you soon.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Can You Do EMDR Therapy Online?

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling.

The History of Online EMDR therapy

Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, there was much discussion in the EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) community about whether or not EMDR therapy could effectively be done online. There were concerns from clinicians about their clients having intense emotional reactions or dissociation and not being present to help their clients calm down. The EMDR International Association (EMDRIA) was in the process of developing guidelines for virtual EMDR, which of course, was pushed to the forefront in the beginning of 2020.

Almost overnight, all EMDR therapists were seeing their clients online. Many clinicians who had been hesitant or scared to try EMDR virtually were thrust into a dilemma: Do I provide a technique I know that works for clients in distress or do I prolong their suffering indefinitely until we can be back with them in the office? For me, this decision was less of a dilemma. Due to moving therapy offices in 2019, my appointments were already about thirty percent virtual. I had even tried EMDR with a couple higher functioning clients, and they managed the therapy well.

Can EMDR therapy be done online?

The short answer is a resounding yes. There are many ways to achieve this, but a well trained EMDR therapist who has experience providing EMDR therapy online will tell you that the technique works just as well online as in person. There are three levels of training in EMDR. Therapists can either be trained, certified, or a consultant. Certified EMDR therapists have completed further training and consultation hours after their initial two weekends of training. Consultants have received additional training and supervision in their consultation of other EMDR therapists.  

How do you do EMDR therapy online?

EMDR requires what is often referred to as bilateral stimulation (BLS) or dual attention stimulation (DAS). These terms are often used interchangeably in EMDR literature. Most people see BLS/DAS being administered by eye movements. This is how EMDR is usually depicted in TV or movies. However, the same BLS/DAS can be achieved by the client tapping themselves on their shoulders or knees, following the therapist’s fingers, or using computerized software in which a client looks back and forth. Eye movements need to be utilized with someone on a computer rather than a phone as the phone doesn’t provide enough width.

What if I become overwhelmed during online EMDR therapy?

Whether EMDR is administered in person or online, it’s important to let your therapist know when things feel like they are getting too much. Having a good relationship with your therapist and proper preparation for EMDR therapy is the key to successful EMDR treatment.

What is EMDR?

EMDR Intensive Therapy

Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP of By The Well Counseling is an EMDR Consultant who specializes in helping clients with trauma, anxiety and OCD get to a deeper level of healing through EMDR via online counseling across Tennessee and in person intensive therapy sessions. Carrie is the host of the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast, which is a welcome place for struggling Christians to reduce shame, increase hope, and develop healthier connections with God and others.

77. Postpartum Anxiety and Depression with Julie Lamb

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 77. Postpartum Anxiety and Depression with Julie Lamb

Julie Lamb, LCSW who is a life coach at julielambcoaching.com shares with us about postpartum depression and anxiety, and how to cope with it. 

  • Julie’s personal experience with postpartum anxiety and depression
  • How many weeks are considered postpartum
  • Difference between postpartum depression and major depression
  • What makes postpartum depression worse
  • How to cope with postpartum depression and anxiety

Related Resources:

Julie Lamb Coaching

How to Reduce Anxiety About Giving Birth with Carrie Bock

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 77. I’ve been trying to do an episode for a little while on postpartum depression and anxiety because this is. Such a common issue in our society. And actually, as several of, you know, I have a young daughter, but actually, I’ve been trying to do this show way before I became pregnant. And it just didn’t work out with guests and so forth. But we have a guest today that has both personal and professional experience. So I’m super excited to interview Julie Lamb, LCSW who’s a life coach at julielambcoaching.com. 

Carrie: Julie, welcome to the show today. 

Julie: Thank you. I’m so glad to be here.

Carrie: Talk with us a little bit about postpartum depression. How would you define it on a basic level for people?

Julie: One of the first things I wanna talk about when it comes to postpartum, depression is we have to understand that birth is traumatic. It is a traumatic thing that happens to your body, and yes, we can say it’s normal, natural, whatever.

It doesn’t matter. It’s still traumatic to your body. It increases all those hormones. It increases all of that adrenaline within our body. The parasympathetic nerves kind of go out whack. And what happens is that every woman that has a child will experience it. Some symptoms of loss, sadness, and some anxiety, everyone will experience. However, postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety come into play. When those symptoms continue generally about two weeks after birth. And so the biggest thing to think about is. Everybody’s gonna have these normal feelings, but if they continue past two weeks is when postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety come into play.

Carrie: Okay. So it’s gotta last for at least two weeks.

Julie: Yes

Carrie: How would you say that it’s similar or different to someone who’s maybe going through a major depressive episode or a dysthymia

Julie: depression has so many different layers. And one of the things that are really fascinating about depression is that it’s not a one-size-fits-all.

It’s not a, oh, you’re sad. Therefore you have dyslexia or you are manic, therefore you’re bipolar. It doesn’t work that way. But there are certain categories that we say that would then say, this is the kind of depression that you have a major depression is essentially where for a period of a long time, you have had these feelings of sadness of overwhelm, perhaps not being able to sleep or having no desire to do anything.

Those continue dysthymia. You have to have that for at least a year. I mean, can you imagine, I have to feel this way for a year before I can finally say something’s wrong. And major depression tends to be a shorter period. So a lot of times people will be diagnosed with a major depression first because it’s something that you can diagnose quicker generally before six months when somebody’s had those experiences and SEIA says, well, you’ve had these a lot longer.

And this is what this looks like. Postpartum depression is just different from that because it’s quicker onset. Essentially you have nine months and some people will also experience depression during their pregnancy. And unfortunately, people will tend to people, meaning doctors will tend to be like, it’s just your hormones, just your body changing.

Women kind of get put to the side, basically. Like that’s not really a problem you’re just changing. And then what happens then is you may have had those feelings and then after the baby is born, they are magnified and they’re made so much bigger. And if you’ve ever had any depression in the past, then you’re more likely to have this postpartum depression and we’re talking any, you could have seriously a week of just feeling really down.

And then you’re more likely to have this postpartum depression that will hit and it will feel even. More triggering more sadness, more overwhelmed, more irritability, more feeling like you just can’t get up and do the next thing. And it all is because of that one event. And that’s having a baby.

Carrie: Yeah. It’s interesting. I’m glad that you brought up being depressed in pregnancy because I got depressed in pregnancy and I felt very isolated because there was all this conversation surrounding postpartum depression that it almost, I felt like a weirdo. I was like “I’m supposed to be happy being pregnant.” And was really struggling because I had a lot of friends and family members that either, you know, had infertility difficulties and I thought, well, here I am supposed to be. Really happy and thankful that I was able to get pregnant and give birth, but it absolutely wrecked my body. Unfortunately, it’s interesting that you said a little while ago, that birth as being traumatic.

And I necessarily wouldn’t have said that for myself and my situation, although I will say that just even the process of the pregnancy and the hormones and different things really mess some things up for me. And I’m still dealing. Some ongoing back issues and stuff that I’m trying to get straightened out because of the pregnancy stuff.

But I think in my situation was a little bit different because it was connected with chronic pain. That was really kind of fueling that depression. I’m curious too, about the onset of postpartum depression. Is this something that happens right after people give birth or can it have a later onset? Like when they go back to work, for example,

Julie: It can happen later and it can happen both.

It can happen almost right at birth, and then it can happen later. Part of my story with postpartum depression is I actually have had very difficult pregnancies when I had my first baby. I actually, my body started to shut down. And so I had to have her cuz it went into help syndrome. If anybody knows what that is.

So my body was shutting down, saying, you have to have this baby. I have an epidural. So it was all natural. She was about three and a half weeks early. So she was little, the whole. I had this baby feeling pretty good. I will say afterwards, you know, maybe a little bit of the blues, but then I had a significant loss.

I had a brother that died about two weeks after the birth of my baby. Wow. And so what happened is that that compounded all of those feelings. Here’s this supposed to be this happiest time? Which I think is a misnomer anyways, but supposed to be this happy time. And yet I’m dealing with this grief and I’m supposed to just move forward with it.

I’m supposed to just, you know, grieve move forward refined. And what I noticed is it was about four or five months later that I went into a real deep depression. You could say, yes, it was postpartum. You could say, yes, it was because of this grief. You could say it was cuz I went back to. You could give all those different circumstances.

The point is that I hit that depressive wall where essentially it was like, I wasn’t bonding with my child. I wasn’t viewing life could be any better and all, because essentially all those circumstances compounded together. And my body said, you have to deal with this one way and we’re gonna make you deal with it mentally.

It’s kind of how I viewed it. Looking back how I viewed it now.

Carrie: Wow. So it was just like, that’s how it felt. It just kind of a shut or like hitting a wall and like, you couldn’t go forward or do the things that you need to do. I mean, there’s a lot that goes into caring for a baby. It’s very time-consuming and it’s very exhausting.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. And the thing with caring for a baby is that we all think, again, this is supposed to be the greatest time babies are so sweet and precious. You have a lack of sleep. You’re not eating well. You’re 100% focused on this little person and forget the whole idea of taking care of yourself.

Forget the idea of even having a relationship with your partner. Like any of that, it suddenly becomes, I am so focused on just a survival instinct of that day to day. And a survival of this infant, of this person that 100% relies on me. And that’s a lot of pressure. And if you are already not taking care of yourself with sleep with food, or even just rest like mentally resting, it just compounds more and more and more.

And then you throw in the idea that you have some depression in the past, you throw in any circumstance, job loss, financial insecurity, you throw in any of that. And suddenly our brains go, I just can’t do this. it’s just way too much. That’s when postpartum depression almost seems to flare a lot more.

Carrie: Yeah, this is pretty common. I think I read something like one in seven women. Just kind of from what you’ve seen statistic-wise. Okay. Mm-hmm cause this is a pretty common issue, but I think a lot of times people feel. Very isolated by it. If they haven’t heard other people talk about it or, or known someone that’s gone through it.

Do you feel that way? Like just the, what you were talking about, the shoulds and the supposed to that you feel like are on society.

Julie: Yeah. And there’s also this idea that this is what you’re supposed to do, so you should just be okay with it. . And so I think it also leads to a lot of women that are afraid to talk about it.

You mentioned something. And I saw this a lot when I worked with adoptions for years was the fact that there were women that felt guilty for having babies because their friends couldn’t. And I, again, I worked with adoptions and I felt guilty that I could get pregnant. And it becomes this fear of like, well, I should love this.

I should be happy. And if you suddenly feel like you can’t. That’s a huge amount of pressure that you put on yourself and that you put on everybody else around you. And I noticed something really interesting with me was this idea that I had to do it all. And so here I was with this new baby and I was like, I have to make sure the house is clean.

I have to make sure that I’m, you know, that I’ve got food on the table. I’ve gotta make sure my husband’s taken care of and that, oh, I have to go back to work and I’ve gotta make sure I’m working all these hours. And I’m doing all these things. And suddenly it was like, my husband was not good enough with the baby.

It was only me that could do it. And all of us as women. We have this idea that there’s a standard we’re supposed to meet, and this standard comes from maybe something we’ve been taught to, maybe something we’ve experienced, maybe it’s even something that we just inherently believe. And that standard is sometimes what creates this feeling of. Unworthiness this feeling of I’m not good enough. And when we feed on those feelings that it can lead to a lot more depression. And especially that can lead to a lot of anxiety because you’re not living up to that standard.

Carrie: Yeah. I know that that was hard for me more so when I went back to work of handing over more responsibilities to my husband, we had like a dramatic household shift in our world where I was at home for maternity leave for three months, you know, I was doing the majority of the baby taken care of, and he was very much involved and he would come home and spend time with her and spend whatever time we could together, so forth. But then it was like this light switch flipped.

He quit his job. And became a stay-at-home dad. So all of a sudden he was like the primary baby caretaker. And I was like, full-time household provider. And that role switch was just like very jarring for us. And it took a lot of communication and a lot of adjustment, but for me learning that I had to let go of some things and trust him to be able to handle the baby stuff that I had learned to do. Like he can’t actually do some of these things, but I think what you’re saying, like that sense of like, oh, I have to be the one to take care of this, or I have to be the one to handle it. Was it pretty easy for you to recognize that you had postpartum depression? Or were you kind of in a little bit of denial?

Like, no, that’s not me.

Julie: I was in denial because as a therapist, I knew all the signs. I even remember before I had my babysitting down with my husband and saying, here are all the signs of postpartum depression. So you are aware of it. You get to know what it is. And my husband (bless his heart) was like, okay, I get it.

I got it. I’ll know, and this will be fine. but a lot of people think postpartum depression is just that, like, I wanna kill my baby. That’s honestly like, we’re gonna go that extreme. And so here I was like, no, no, no. Like if you notice I’m crying a lot or you notice that I just feel more lethargic. I don’t have a lot of energy.

Those are things to watch out for. It was interesting because he was very aware of that. But I think because we had a death that got mixed in and very confused. Oh, He said he was really good at that. But what happened is that after I started to feel that way, my training kicks in was like, you can’t have postpartum depression.

You’re not allowed to have postpartum depression. So here’s what you need to do. And I remember trying to tell myself, do this, this and this, this, and of course, none of that worked. So I was still feeling really off. And I was like, well, I’ll go talk to a therapist. I went and talked to them, it was not a good therapist.

And I went, talked to a therapist who basically was like, you’ve just had a lot of things going on. Just make sure you get some. Make sure you let your husband do things, you know, whatever. And it wasn’t helpful because on the way home, I could acknowledge that I had postpartum depression and he missed it.

I feel like many times we, as women, we think we know something is wrong, but we almost discount it. Like I discounted because, well, you know, I’m qualified. I should know better. Mm-hmm but I also discounted it because it didn’t seem as severe as what I had thought it should look like. And it wasn’t until somebody actually did discount it, that I was actually able to say, okay, wait, maybe there is something going on here.

And I think many women go to their doctor afterwards. And the first thing they asked them was like, do you wanna hurt the baby? I’m like, no, no, I never wanna do that. Okay, then you’re fine. I

Carrie: just wanna tell you what my doctor asked me six weeks after I had the baby. Literally, this was a question and this was the.

You’re not depressed. Are you? And I was just like, I’m smacking my forehead, you know, as a mental health professional, I’m like, that is not how you ask somebody. And funny enough, the paediatrician’s office, I feel like has been much more sensitive and has given me a questionnaire. Like every time that I’ve gone in there, But, you know, if somebody says, well, you’re not depressed, are you, I mean, then you feel like, well, what if I was like, would I wanna open up about that right now?

Would I wanna tell you if I was, of course, I’m not gonna open up yeah. That was an interesting response. Let’s talk about anger connected to postpartum depression because maybe that’s a sign that sometimes people don’t necessarily like see as being connected and anger can be really connected to depression.

Julie: Absolutely. And anger, a lot of times are like, well, that’s just something that happened to you that made you mad. And they don’t actually recognize that there’s sometimes a rage. And that’s what that anger tends to feel like in postpartum. Depression is just this idea. I’m yelling. I’m screaming. You may not wanna hurt anybody, but you just feel like I said, this intense rage going on, and that is an irritability.

And the funny thing is, is that people will say, well, you just need to go get some sleep or you just need to go relax or something. Yes. Sleep is vital and important. And I wanna know any new mom that gets sleep. It’s more than that. It’s the fact that I want you to imagine all these pressures, all these feelings, all these thoughts being put into a kettle and they are just put pressure upon pressure upon pressure.

And then you have a doctor saying you’re not depressed, or you’re not anxious, or you’re not whatever. And you’re inside you’re bubbling. And you’re just thinking what I am like. You don’t understand. And it just feels like it’s exploding. And what’s interesting is that if you have experienced ever some postpartum anger, you will most likely experience it.

Every pregnancy after. And people don’t think that they’re like, no, no, you can overcome it. But realistically speaking, when your body naturally holds that it almost associates that with every next pregnancy, I had a client that came to me specifically while she was pregnant and said I’ve had postpartum anger, and I need to know how to deal with it now, because I don’t like who I.

So we worked with some very specific tactics that helped with anger. That would also help her as a new mom. And it was interesting. She went to her husband, she says, here’s what I’m gonna do. And she messaged me after she had the baby. She’s like, I have to just tell you my anger. Yes. It’s there, but because I can acknowledge it and it’s safe to say it just doesn’t feel like it’s overwhelming.

It doesn’t feel like that rage that’s gonna come out and just explode at any moment. She’s able to say I’m angry and it’s okay. That I’m angry. and these are the things that I do with it. And I think that’s, yes, anger is definitely a part of all of. Yeah, that’s really good. How did you get the help that you needed?

I knew that something wasn’t right. So I, I first went to my OB doctor and she is fantastic. She delivered all my kids. I’m a high risk pregnancy, so she very much, her and I are, are really good friends. She was like, Julie, here, you should take some Lexapro. You should take, you know, just take something. It will help.

And I will admit that I didn’t want to, because I was like, no, I can do this on my own, but she was there. That’s like, then talk to me, tell me what’s going on. And you need to make sure you have somebody to talk to that you have some resources in place. So it was really great that she was one. She prescribe the medication, if I needed it and wanted it. And there’s nothing wrong with taking that. But she also was like, if you don’t want to, here’s the things that you need to do. So I did go that’s when I went and found that therapist, I would recommend that you don’t go see a male therapist. That’s my number one mistake.

I think I know we should say no out. They’re all getting no, no, no. You need somebody that understands women’s hormones. And that specifically understands postpartum and understands what that is like when you have somebody that knows those feelings, those emotions, and can help you through that. That’s one of the best things I did do some cognitive behavioral therapy.

So with him, he didn’t help me at all. So I went to like with another therapist, friend of mine, And I said, okay, this is where my thought is and help me with my thought process. And so I did have that available, but at the same time, if it wasn’t available, I would have gone and sought out somebody else, another therapist, another somebody else to talk to.

So by all means, that’s kind of what I did. The other thing is, is I actually allowed myself to just take a break. And so I acknowledged that. I’m not okay. I’m not good. This is not what I need to do. And I told my husband, I said, I need to just get away for a little bit because I am not in okay. Place. I wasn’t breastfeeding.

So I was formula feeding at that time. And so I was able to kind of walk away and just like take some time to myself. I knew she was in good hands. When I say take some time, it was literally like a weekend. It wasn’t like I was gone for months on end. I’ve thought about it. No, it was just, it was like a weekend.

And I went and I just like, was able to just kind of relax into that. And I came back. I was really overly in love, I think, with my baby at that point, because it was like, I felt healthy. I felt good at that moment. And I think those are the things that really helped me, especially when I had my next. You and those next two were very difficult and there was a miscarriage in between.

I mean, there’s lots of stories there that just compound all of that. That essentially after I have had my third, I was able to look back and say, here’s the things you did that work. Do this again. Here’s the things that didn’t work. Don’t do that. And I implemented that a lot quicker with number three than I did with number one, obviously

Carrie: From what you’ve seen in your experience is postpartum more common for first-time moms or not necessarily?

Julie: Not necessarily. I’d love to say, oh yes, if you have it once, then you’ll never have it again. But, or if you’ve never had it, you’ll never have it. That’s not true. I believe that there is a chemical that does get impacted very much so with every pregnancy, I explained it kind of my first pregnancy, I left feeling like something was just incomplete within me.

My second pregnancy. I literally felt like all my hormones went back into place. It was like the weirdest sensation. And it was actually the healthiest, I would think after that pregnancy. But I got pregnant really soon after that one. And then it was like, I was depressed pre-having this baby because it was so close.

It felt so soon. I wasn’t sure I could handle this. And then that impact. I feel like my depression. Well, no, actually it was anxiety that hit me after the third one. Depression was the first one, but then I had anxiety the third one. And so I think that that’s important to recognize too, is that you don’t always have to have depression.

I had depression and then I had anxiety at the last pregnancy and they can also look very different. I think the second one, I did have a lot more of what we’re gonna call the baby blues because it was, you know, a new baby. It was hard. She didn’t latch. She was so difficult in that way. It was like some of that.

Whereas with the third one, she was in NICU and that escalated my anxiety escalated some of my concerns in that aspect. So I think you really have to look at the circumstances around each pregnancy to understand sometimes which one somebody may perhaps have.

Carrie: That makes sense. Tell us briefly about postpartum anxiety.

Like, how does that typically show up for moms?

Julie: Anxiety is a worry and it’s a fear almost this is fear-based. And so postpartum anxiety is where for moms, it’s like, you’re deeply worried something’s gonna happen to the baby. And so many moms may not sleep at night because they’re constantly making sure the baby is.

Like nothing’s gonna happen or they are afraid to leave the baby with anybody because something could happen to them or the baby they’re even afraid of. Sometimes they’ll leave their house because what if something happened to them and the baby. And so it becomes a fear-driven base where you are so afraid that something terrible is going to happen, that you then try to protect it and hope that nothing does happen.

Anxiety really shows up that way, shows up more. If that fear and that worry about the incessant, worry about the future.

Carrie: I think that that’s a good distinction to make. And this, we have some listeners who also have O C D. So it’s important for people to realize too, that OCD latches on to things that are important to you.

And so you may have different themes come up, either when you’re pregnant or after you have your baby. And if you start to have, you know, obsessions about harming them, Those types of things, that may be part of your OCD that you might need to get help for. How did you handle that anxiety? I mean, obviously, you felt like, okay, you know, you wanted your baby to make it through the NICU and be okay at home.

I know, like for me, I didn’t realize how still babies can be when they’re sleeping. I know I definitely did a lot of like breathing checks and was a little worried about SIDS, not to an extreme level, but I definitely was like, is she still breathing? Like, oh my goodness. She’s been like, so still she has not moved.

Julie: Yeah. I think what helped me with the anxiety is that actually, this is the same doctor when my baby was in NICU. She came and found me and pulled me aside one day and she. It doesn’t feel like this is a good thing, right? She says, but you know, your baby’s gonna be fine. And she said, you did everything right during this pregnancy.

I was like, of course, she would say that because, you know, she’s the one that delivered this baby, but she’d been with me through two other pregnancies. This pregnancy was more challenging and she’s like, we did everything, right? This is not your fault, which I needed to hear from that professional. Yeah.

And then she told me, you know, that this baby will be right. Be okay in the ni. Your number one focus she said is to sleep. She said “I want you to heal because you’ve had, again, this traumatic experience of giving birth, I need you to heal and Trust NICU will take care of your baby.”  And she said, “You will actually feel so much better”

And I really wish that we had more professionals like this doctor that actually were the ones that cared about us as patients. Not only to be able to say, yeah, this sucks. This is hard. This is not what you signed up for, but it will be okay. And here is what you need to do in the process. I did. I cried every single day when I had to leave the hospital, but my husband was so good cuz she also pulled my husband aside and said, you make sure she sleeps.

And so I would get home and that was my job was to just go sleep. He took care of the other two and he’s like, you just go take a nap. You just go to sleep and then we will get there as early as you need in the morning. And during the day I would have all the anxiety that’d be like are my other two.

Okay. And I lived an hour from the hospital as well. So it was like all those things compound. I just remember, as soon as I could bring her home, I was grateful that I’d had the rest because I knew mm-hmm it was like a blessing in disguise where I was able to get this rest where I could heal from giving birth.

And then I was able to bring this baby home and then I was able to know that she was okay and she could breathe. And it was fine. It was interesting though because she had one episode where I think like, I felt like she struggled. And that’s when my anxiety was like, came back in full force. And when I recognized it, I didn’t say, “Oh, Julie, just sweep it on, it’s fine.”

I allowed myself to say, of course, I’m anxious. Of course, this is difficult. And I allowed myself to say, it’s okay. And I cried. And I just, I allowed that. I think sometimes we are so used to just. Pushing through and being strong that you have to be okay to allow yourself to just cry, to allow yourself to feel that.

And there are, some other things that I did, if any of your listeners are familiar with tapping? I did a version of tapping for myself at that time. Okay. I also did some guided imagery just for my myself to kind of find my places that helped me. And those were things that helped a lot. And then it’s interesting.

So my baby isn’t such a baby anymore, cuz she’s seven. And I noticed that this summer my anxiety seemed to spike. It was like, I was worried about my kids, worried about something happening to them, worried like all of those. And it was interesting how I could recognize, of course I’m anxious because I’m worried and I love these children and it’s okay that I’m anxious about them and it’s okay that I then do something with it.

So I. Never ever tell yourself that my anxiety, my depression, my OCD is a problem is wrong. Like it hurts because it doesn’t it’s normal. It’s absolutely just a part. And it is okay to be anxious. It’s okay. To be depressed. It’s okay to have O C, D it’s okay. To tell yourself I have me. I’m alright. And then to be able to say, this is what I’m gonna do with it.

This is what this means. This is how I handle it. And what that may look like for you definitely is very different per person, but that’s, for me, that was the best thing you to be able to say. Of course, I’m anxious and it’s okay. That I’m this way as well.

Carrie: Yeah, it is. Okay. that you feel a certain way and so normal and so understandable.

A lot of times, like when we really look at the situation that we’re going through, it’s like, yeah, this makes sense. you know, that you’d feel that way. One question I like to ask people towards the end of the podcast is what would you say to your younger self who is going through postpartum depression, and postpartum anxiety?

Julie: I’d wanted to know that one, this was completely normal, even though we have those, you know, one in seven we’ll have postpartum about 50 to 75% will experience some sort of baby blues. So that’s definitely more than half. All of us will experience those feelings. Not only is that normal, but it’s also a sign that everything has gone.

Right. And I wish that I had told my younger self that even though the pregnancy felt like none of it went right. The delivery, none of it went right. Like nothing happened the way that it was supposed to happen. Everything went right. And that it was okay for me to take a step back. It was okay for me to not have to do it all.

It was okay for me to acknowledge that this could be somebody else’s response. Or something else somebody else could help me with. I didn’t have to do it all. And I think that would’ve been the advice I wish that I had gotten then. Yeah. Good.

Carrie: Thank you so much for sharing your personal story and your professional experience with postpartum depression, and anxiety.

I think this is hopefully gonna be a really helpful show for people.

Julie: Thank you. I love talking about this. So I’m hoping that this will help others as.

 I really feel like this is one of those. You are not alone type episodes. And I love it. If you are struggling with postpartum depression or anxiety, please reach out and get the help that you need. Whether that’s medication therapy, support group, friends, spiritual counsel, whatever that is, just make sure that you reach out and get the help that you need. If you like this episode or found benefit from it, let us know. You can always contact us on hope for anxiety and ocd.com. There’s a contact form at the bottom of the front page of our website.

Thank you so much for listening. Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.  opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling.

Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

76. Finding Joy in the Midst of the Trial of Cancer with John Bennet.

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 76. Finding Joy in the Midst of the Trial of Cancer with John Bennet.

 I’m privileged to be interviewing John Bennet, author and banker.

John shares with us his journey through a cancer diagnosis and treatment.

  • John’s long treatment process to move through the cancer
  • How John responded after finding out he had a terminal cancer
  • How has cancer been a blessing to John’s life
  • John’s prayer life
  • Submitting to God’s sovereignty 

More Personal Stories

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 76. Today on the show, we’re gonna be talking about joy in the midst of trials. And our guest today is gonna be talking about his journey through a cancer diagnosis and treatment. This is John Bennett. He is a banker, author of the book, Build it right for business owners and a cancer survivor. John, welcome to the show. 

John: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

Carrie: I also should say, I feel like I inherited you as a friend when I married Steve, is that fair? 

John: Yes. I think that’s very fair. Definitely.

Carrie:  And I just appreciate you and your wife’s friendship and how you encouraged Steve before I even came along that God has somebody for you. And so it’s nice that we have people each in our lives that encouraged us and prayed for our future spouse. So I just think that that’s really sweet. 

John: Definitely. It was an enjoyable part of a friendship, for sure. 

Carrie: This is gonna be really interesting because I don’t know this part of your story. So I’m kind of learning along with the audience a little bit. Tell us about the process of getting diagnosed with cancer. What was that like for you? 

John: Okay. About three and a half years ago, I was totally healthy. Never had any big health issues in my life and started having pain in my lower back. And we thought at first it was maybe. Needed a chiropractic adjustment, different things, check different things out. It kept getting worse. And obviously eventually it was diagnosed as cancer. It’s a blood cancer called multiple myeloma and it’s considered a terminal cancer. Although the treatments have come so far in the last few years that some doctors look at it as potentially a chronic disease and not terminal.

So, it’s still to be determined on that. But I went through a period of time after the diagnosis where I had to go through, started off with chemo. Went through four rounds of that. Actually I started with radiation. They radiated my spine to kill the cancer in my spine. And then I went through chemo and then I had to have three back surgeries because the cancer had gotten into my spine and one of my vertebrae had completely collapsed and another one had partially collapsed. So, they had to go in and fix that. And then I went through a stem cell transplant. And after that I had about 14 more rounds of chemo. So it was a pretty long process there for a while to move through the cancer. 

Carrie: Wow! How long has it been? 

John: It was three and a half years ago. 

Carrie: Wow. 

John: When I was originally diagnosed.

Carrie: That’s a long treatment process.

John: It was long. It built even more tenacity in me. Thankfully, I had a good bit of endurance and tenacity, but it certainly increased that. But yes, it was very much a long process.

Carrie: Going back to thinking about when you were first diagnosed and someone says you have this very serious cancer, we consider it to be a terminal cancer. How did you respond to that emotionally? 

John: You know, I am a Christian and my faith in God is the rock of my life. I knew I had a choice initially with the diagnosis, so I could either surrender that to God and acknowledge that he was totally in control or I could panic. I could do one of two things. And so I chose to embrace it, which is maybe odd, but I chose to embrace it. And I thought for some reason, God has ordained me to have cancer. I didn’t get really depressed or down like a lot of people do. I chose a different route and the way I had to deal with it emotionally and spiritually was to realize that my time might be a lot more limited than I originally thought it would be.

I was planning on living to a ripe old age and had really tried to keep myself in good health. And I had to look at the very real possibility that the timeframe of life might be drastically different. I knew I would have to reprioritize a lot of things in my life. I knew that career aspirations might change dramatically. I knew that my body expectations of what I could do physically would probably have to be adjusted a lot. I would have to really adjust my expectations and accept my limitations. And yet, try to overcome as many of those as I could too. Cause I kind of wanted to look at it from a balance of I’m trusting God a hundred percent. And if he takes me out of this life with this cancer, I wanna be okay with that. 

But it doesn’t mean I’m just gonna sit back and give up either I wanna work. I want to do everything. The doctors are telling me. I want to try to eat as healthy as I can. Exercise, definitely stay on all my medication, stay on top of all the testing, everything possible that could be done. That’s kind of how I looked at it. I guess I’d really just stepped back and looked at it as a challenge that God had put in my life. And I thought somehow he is going to use this in a great way. And I remember sending out an email to all of my coworkers just to let them know what was going on. I thought I would just make it. Really an open situation. So nobody felt weird about asking me or whatever, and I kind of described what was going on. And I remember in the email, I said, “I have no doubt that God is gonna make me a better person and a better leader through this”. And so I’m looking forward to the challenge and I intend to embrace it and, and roll with it.

So that made a huge difference. I think in the way that I was able to walk through the process and did I ever get down? I did have a couple of what I call gut punches in the process. We had a hard time getting me into remission. When I went through the stem cell transplant, I was not in a complete remission. That’s why we went through another 14 rounds of chemo after that, which was probably more than most people have to deal with. That have this cancer. Most people can get into a remission. The first time with less, we got to the point where I was talking to the two specialists I was working with and they were saying, “we may not be able to get you there. You may just be able to get to a partial remission”. And I said, “well, as long as I’m handling the chemo, let’s keep going until we’ve beat this thing as much as we can”. And then determined that I said, “I’m not ready to give up on that yet”. And by the grace of God, we got there, got me into complete stringent remission, which has been fabulous.

I’m glad I kept on, but there was, I would go in and I remember one time I went in and the levels had gone back up. After all this treatment, and that was a gut punch. It was like work so hard and I’m trusting God and I’m moving forward, but it’s going the other way. There were a couple of challenges there where things didn’t go as planned, but overall it was a pretty positive process and God was unbelievably faithful.

Before I forget this part, I’d say the biggest part of my treatment was having. I think, literally hundreds of people praying for me every time somebody would say, “Hey, can I put you on my prayer list for my church or my Sunday school class or life group or Bible study”. I’m like, please do just very, very open about that. And I know I had hundreds of people praying for me on a daily basis and a lot of ’em would text me. Your husband was one of them, Steve. And that I have no doubt. 

God answered so many prayers. And he kept me up. As far as my spirit, my emotions, people ask me, you know, they always have to take you through some questionnaires when you get cancer and you have to meet with a counselor. And they said, “you know, are you down? Are you struggling with depression”? I said, “actually, I’m not. I feel great”. I really feel like this is what God has for me. And so I’m not gonna push back on it. I’m just gonna embrace it. I mean, it’s not what I would’ve chosen, obviously, but if this is his plan, I’m gonna trust him. I haven’t always trusted him. I wish I would have, but I thought this time I’m going to, I just said, “God, whatever you got, if you take me out early with this, or if I make it through, just let me be a witness and use me every way you can”. 

Carrie: I wanna talk about that acceptance piece because even though you’re talking about a physical struggle, this is so vivid.

To our listeners who are struggling with anxiety and OCD. And I talk to people every day who say, “I don’t want the OCD label, or even, I don’t wanna have to be dealing with anxiety because I don’t know if I’m ever gonna be able to get out of this”. This may be somewhat of a lifelong struggle that I deal with.

Sometimes these can be chronic conditions. Sometimes they can wax and wane and get better, but sometimes people have to deal with them for a long time and they have a hard time. I think, accepting you use the words, God ordained me to have cancer. And I think a lot of our listeners would have a hard time saying, like, God ordained me to struggle with OCD or God ordained me to struggle with anxiety. Can you talk a little bit about like that acceptance piece, just in terms of God’s sovereignty and will over our lives.

John: Sure. I guess with anxiety and OCD it’s somewhat similar to cancer and you don’t always work toward getting that and you may try to stay away from that, but sometimes things in your life can happen and cause that some things that are out of our control, I’m sure there’s people that grew up in situations where it cause anxiety. And they’ve had a hard time shaking that. I don’t know what caused my cancer. I was a guy who exercised, kept my weight down, tried to eat healthy, tried to get enough sleep. I mean, all the things you would want to do. And I was laughing one day and I told my wife, I said, “well, I guess I need to start eating cheeseburgers with bacon all over it and smoking and whatever else I wanna do, because it doesn’t matter. Now I got cancer”.  

Anyway, I guess what it showed me was I was definitely not in control. And I know we say that, but cancer kind of really. Puts the mirror up to your face and shows you you’re not in control and no matter what you do, God still is sovereign. And he may allow somebody to have cancer that did everything they could do to be healthy.

Just like I’m sure some people that may be listening. Think why do I have to struggle with anxiety? I’m a Christian, I’m got a prayer life. I’m trying to grow with God. I’m trying to do the right things. Some of those things are just unexplainable. I think, I knew that I couldn’t do anything to change it. 

I remember talking to one of my oncologists and he said, “you know, I definitely want you to eat healthy. I want you to exercise and all that, but be assured that’s not gonna beat cancer”. That’s gonna help you to endure the treatments, but that’s not gonna fix what you’ve got. Just showed me how much I was reliant on guide through this whole process. And I guess when you realize you’re out of control, it’s maybe sometimes easier to relinquish that, what you think is control? Because it, I used to think I had certain control over certain things, I guess, in my life. And cancer just kind of wakes you up to showing you how vulnerable you are. 

Carrie: You talked too, about accepting your limitations while also trying to overcome some of those. Was it hard for you? I imagine in the beginning, when you had to accept maybe that you couldn’t be as active as you were before, or as social as you were before, because you had to not be around people. Talk to us a little bit about what that is like striking that balance between accepting your limitations and trying to overcome ’em.

John: That’s a work in progress process. It’s something that I still work through each day. I, for instance, I like to exercise. I’ve always been the type of person that likes to get better at things. So I want to try to get a little bit in a little bit better shape or do a little bit more exercise. Well, I’ve had to learn that there is a kind of a point of no return for me with exercise. I can do it only so many days a week. I can do it only so many minutes. Or it’s not gonna really help me to get stronger or have more endurance. It’s gonna work the other way and pull me down. Fatigue is something that I have to deal with on a pretty regular basis, because I’m still on a low dose chemo treatment to try to keep the cancer at bay. 

So I take that three weeks a month. And so that causes fatigue. So I have to really balance exercise with rest and I have to do, really moderation, which is not the easiest thing for me. I like to go full steam ahead. I’ve had to realize that less is more in that situation. I do need to be exercising. It’s very important. It helps me to deal with the treatments. It helps me with everything in my battle against cancer in my life. But if I push it too much, it will reverse. And then I’ll have several days to take to recover because it wears me down so much. So accepting that has been hard for me. But as I work through it more, if it gets easier every day, the social part is difficult with COVID. I’ve had to be very protected from being in large group from, with COVID the uptick right now in Nashville, where I live having to be extra cautious with wearing a mask and just really being careful because of my immune system, my weakened immune system, even though I’ve been vaccinated, the doctors don’t know how well I would handle COVID at this point, I’m a person who likes to go to events and be around a lot of people interact with a lot of people. 

I’ve had to be a lot more choosy, with what I do. And just, I’ve had to say no to just countless opportunities for things like a, a big event or a concert or a ball game or things that I would love to go to.  But I just have to say “no” and go to the things that I can. So I’m much more limited than I was. But when you, for a while, after you do a stem cell transplant, you can’t be around anybody. And so when you look at that, and this may be a key too, to the whole process, When you get to that stage, you learn to praise God for the times you can get out. I focus on that. I think this is awesome. I can actually go to an early lunch and sit in a corner booth and things that I can do that I couldn’t do there for a while. I get excited about that rather than get down about. I can’t go to a concert or whatever. 

Carrie: How has cancer been a blessing in your life? I think the joy piece of finding joy in the midst of your trial.

John: I tell you the joy has been overwhelming with it. That’s cancer has been a gift to me. It has helped me to see even closer the finality of my life, that I finite time on this earth. It’s made every interaction, a little more sweet, a little more important. Every friendship, every family relationship, it has helped to focus me even more on growing with the Lord, because I see that when I pass away, it’s gonna be my relationship with God. And those that I love, that’s really gonna matter. Things like career and success and money and pursuit of fame or affirmation, all those kind of things are a lot less important to me now because I see how fleeting they are at this point. And I think I’ve grown a lot wiser. 

People have told me that cancer ages you about 20 years and they were talking about physically. And I think it does sometimes age you physically that much, but I think it also ages you in, or it can age you in wisdom. That much too. And not that I’ve grown 20 years in wisdom, but I’ve definitely grown some because it just really puts things in a different perspective. And I think there have been times when I’ve tried to overdo or do too many things because I wanted to hit check all the boxes and hit all the options. And it’s really helped me to dial down and prioritize. And it’s so much easier for me to say no to good opportunities now, because I’ll say, “that’d be great. I’d love that. 

But you know what? I would rather do this, or this is more important than the other”. And it really has been a blessing in that way too, to prioritize life more. And when you have limited energy and you have limited possibly time on earth and all those kind of things. It really dials it down so that you prioritize. And I think in so many ways, it’s such a blessing that I got cancer because I could have gotten killed in a car wreck, driving home from work three years ago, if that had happened. And that was God’s will, then that would’ve been what was best. But if that had happened, I would not have had the opportunity to work through learning these priorities and having this time to realize that my life may every away quicker than I wanted it. But I’ve got time to make some adjustments, which to me is a great gift.

Carrie: I’m curious, was there anybody, like in your reflection about your life, was there anybody that you really recognize? I need to forgive this person or I need to seek forgiveness from this person. 

John: I have tried to always stay on top of forgiveness cause I knew that could make me better and all I’ll tell you what it has really accentuated is to, let go of any conflict or things that were trivial that may have caused some challenges. I have a blended family, so I have some interactions with some family members that I think, it wasn’t everything I wish it had been. There was some, I guess friction is probably the best way to describe it there. And I think I have embraced them more than I did. And I’ve just realized. Those differences don’t really matter. And I’ve been able to, reach out and love them more because God has given me that strength to do that and maybe judge them less and love them more and to let any friction in the past go. 

So it is for forgiveness in that way, just forgiving on a regular basis and seeing that, I guess this acceptance too, is seeing that everybody that’s in your life. Is there for a reason, even if they, you have some challenges with them, if you have some challenges with family members or friends or people at church they’re in your life for a reason that too, I think is part of submission to God’s sovereignty and saying, “I don’t really understand why these challenges are here or why”. It’s so difficult sometimes to deal with that person, but there’s something you’re teaching me or there’s something you’ve got for me to be some way a blessing to these people. And so I’m gonna embrace that. And I tell you this, embracing this kind of, it gives you such a positive force to go forward with. Whereas resistance can really eat your energy up. And when you have limited energy, it does train you to say let’s don’t cause a lot of extra resistance to see how much we can embrace this. So we can go further with energy that we do have. I think that’s been a real growth point for me.

Carrie: That resistance is something that I see a lot for people in therapy that are dealing, they’re trying to resist. What’s actually going on instead of grieving it. I think sometimes we have to grieve losses of whether it’s losses of time or opportunities or things that we’re not able to do anymore that we used to be able to, but then getting to that place of acceptance of, okay, God, this is where I’m at right now. This is what I’m dealing with in this season. And so how can you use me? How do you wanna use me in this season of my life? Talk with us about your prayer life.

John: Okay. That has been probably the best thing of this whole process. I always wanna have a better and better prayer life. I wanted to spend more time with God every morning before I started my day.

And I would do that to some extent before, but now it is set in stone and it’s nothing happens for me before I spend my time with God. He is, I really believe in that Matthew 6: 33 seek ye first, the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. So I made a commitment. That I’m gonna get up every morning. And before I do anything else before I speak to anybody or do anything, I’m gonna go and spend a good bit of time and prayer with the Lord. And just in his word that has helped me, has steadied me through this whole process. And what has grown out of this is a I really fairly early on, I moved from a point of praying and asking God to help me with this struggle.

To where he gave me a passion to start praying for other people that were struggling, whether it was with a terminal illness or it was with a health issue or a loss of job or whatever the challenge may be. And I feel like he’s developed me into somewhat of a prayer warrior for other people. And I love to find out about people’s struggles in my church or in my sphere of influence so that I can pray for them specifically on a very regular basis and keep up with them and encourage them. And I’ve certainly become just a magnet drawn to people that are diagnosed with cancer for obvious reasons. Because I know a lot of what they’re dealing with and I wanna pray for them on a regular basis, pray for their health, pray for their walk with the Lord, or if they don’t know God that they would come to know him and also be an encourager.

I try to call and check up on them on a regular basis. You know, I know they’re having a test coming up or they’re having chemo for three weeks or whatever. I’ll put that on my calendar and then I’ll follow up with them and just check on ’em because I know how important that is and how much that means. Having gone through it. God’s given me a ministry that I never had before. And I, I don’t know anybody that’s listening that probably would wanna say, “gosh, I wanna go sign up for a cancer ministry. I wanna get cancer so I can help other people with it”. But when you’re chosen, you roll with it. And I do believe that God knows what’s best.

I know. It’s really ironic, but I’ve got more joy in my life right now than I have ever had in my life. And I attribute so much of that to what God has done through giving me cancer. And my cancer is very up in the air. It’s still considered a terminal cancer. There’s not a quote cure for it at this point, but there’s a lot of good treatments. And I might have a few years left or I might live to be 85. They don’t really know. It normally comes back in about 80 to 90% of the cases. So there’s a really high chance that I’ll have to fight it again and again, and that eventually it’ll probably take me out. We don’t know when that is. So I think in a way maybe God gave me that type of cancer so that I don’t think, well I’m curative cancer. And I can just forget all these things that I’ve learned. 

I think he knows that I need probably that encouragement. And that accountability of knowing that this battle is far from over so that I can continue to keep my focus on him. And I think he allows certain things to happen in our lives, because he knows that we need it. I mean, I didn’t have the discipline to spend the time in prayer with him that I spend now. I didn’t have the focus I needed. And I think really cancer may have been the only way he could get me there. And I’m still growing up. I’m not there yet, but he knows what we specifically need. So I would encourage people if you’ve got a struggle, try to embrace that. And again, not make excuses for it. You still try to overcome it as best you can, but you also realize you’re limitations as a human being and you embrace that. Maybe God could use my anxiety because there is a ton of people out there struggling with that. 

Carrie: Wow.

John: So if I can be real about it, maybe that helps somebody else. And that’s kind of what cancer has been for me. And a lot of people have said, “is it okay if I ask you about your cancer or is it okay if I tell so”? And so I’m like, “yes, I’m not, I don’t have the least bit of hesitation about it”. I, for some reason, this is a ministry God’s call me to, so, I don’t want to cover it up. I want to allow him use it any way he wants to. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I mean, I think that’s really great. I would imagine that many people in your situation might feel very anxious when you go back and have scans or tests or things done, just knowing that that’s kind of looming in the background and could come back. Is that just something that you’ve. Another piece of the acceptance for you. 

John: Probably with any type of cancer and in particular with the cancer, I have you kind of do you have to look over your shoulder on a regular basis cause you know, it might be coming back and I have to get blood work every single month to see am I still clear and clean there? And so it’s always a celebration when I get that, but you just can’t focus too much on that either. And I, one thing I decided was cancer. Although this is a ministry God’s given me. It’s only a part of my life. There’s a lot of other parts and I refuse to let cancer be who John Bennett is. God’s put that in my life, but so many other, I’m a father, I’m a husband. I’m Christian, I’m a banker. I got hobbies. So many things that I’ve. That are part of me. I think when you have cancer or if you’ve got anxiety or whatever it is that you’re working with, and you’re challenged with, you gotta be careful not to let that become everything to. You know that it’s a part of life.

I don’t sit around and talk about cancer all the time. I don’t bring that up in conversations with people if they know about it, or if I can share an encouragement, encouraging word, because of that, I’ll do it. But there’s a lot of people that know me that don’t even know I have cancer because it’s not everything.

It’s a part of me. And it comes out when it needs to, but I’m more than just a sick person with cancer. And thank God. My health is good right now. I think you have to be careful there. You have to realize that yes, it can. Cancer can come back and take you out pretty quickly. But at the same time, you don’t wanna focus on that or you don’t really have a life, focus so much on your limitations. Then the time that you do have, will be wasted instead of used for the glory of God and for blessing other people. 

Carrie: I think that’s so huge just in terms of not identifying solely with your diagnosis, but really identifying yourself as a whole person and spiritually as a child of God, that is, should be our main identity.

That’s huge too. 

John: Right. And it is all relative too. I mean, when you look at the age you are, or whatever happens to you. I’ve had a couple of friends, one that got killed in his twenties. And so if I die early of cancer, compared to my friend, I’ve had a really long life, I think too, it’s learning to praise God for your blessings. And I remember going to in, when I first started getting chemo and I had really prayed a lot about this, and I was talking to one of the nurses and I said, “I’m gonna be the most excited cancer patient you’ve ever had”. I said, “I’m coming in here and I’m glad to get this chemo.  And I appreciate you guys doing this”. And she said, “Okay, you gotta be joking”. I said, “actually, I’m really not”. I said, “you’re helping to kill my cancer. And so I’m excited about that”. And she said, “well, you’re the first person that’s ever thanked me for giving chemo”. And I said, “well, I’m gonna enjoy this process”. And I said, “that may sound stupid or crazy, but I am not gonna come in here with my head down”. Gosh, I’ve gotta get chemo again. I’m worried about, gosh, what’s gonna happen to me. I wanna come in here and live. And I’m gonna have fun and I’m gonna enjoy it and I’m gonna make the most of it. And not that it’s all pleasant, cause  going through some of those things I can tell you, there was a lot of pain.

I got cut on so many times. It’s not funny. I’ve got so many drugs that have gone into my body to try to kill this cancer. It’s overwhelming. I don’t mean to make light of it. But, I was determined. I was gonna find the good in it and praise God for it. And I’ll tell you, that’s made a huge difference. And I was just, I’d seen other cancer patients in particular that got so down and they were discouraging it themselves and everybody else. And I thought, I’m not doing that by the grace of God. I’m not gonna do that. I’m gonna come in here and I’m gonna make the most of this. And whether my time is long or short, I wanna live it to the fullest.

I think that’s what God wants us to do. And we all have struggles. I remember when my Sunday school class or some people call it life group, when they first found out, I told ’em about the cancer diagnosis and it was pretty grim in there. And people were really upset and they prayed for me as a group, which was awesome. And I said, “well, let me just say this”. I said, “everybody in here has got struggles. Some of you have a wayward child. Some of you are having struggles in your marriage. Some of you just lost a job. Some of you got financial difficulties, some of you have other health issues. Some of you are depressed. I’m not the only one in here that has a challenge. So don’t worry about me and don’t focus just on me”. That’s all realize that we’ve all got these things that are challenging. And my cancer is not any more important than your problem in your marriage. 

Whatever it is that you’re challenged with.

I don’t wanna be singled out and people to feel sorry for me either. Cause I mean, some other struggles that people have are a lot worse than what I have. I think it’s important too, with whatever you’re dealing with to not get on the pity party and not think that, gosh, I’ve just got it so hard. I mean, I think I’m so blessed honestly. And I think we all have to just really focus on that. That to me, that seems, like the antidote for depression is praising God. And thanking God for what you do have. And if you look hard enough, you can find a lot of blessings. I don’t care what’s going on in your life. I have certainly seen that. Just what I’ve been through in the last three and a half years.

Carrie: Absolutely. There’s a verse in James about every good and perfect gift is from the father. And that helped me so much through my divorce that it, it caused me really to look at the good things that were in my life and recognize that they were there, cause God put ’em there. And that like you were saying, I could be thankful. And that helped me through that process become a more thankful person, I think, instead of just focusing on the negative and the hurt and the pain that I was going through at that time, that helped a lot. But if you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger self who was just getting diagnosed? Which I guess you do this, because you talk to people who have just been diagnosed with cancer. What do you tell them? 

John: Real good question. The number one thing is focus on your relationship with God. Trust him and move toward, trusting him more and find out how does he want to use this in your life and ask him for the strength every day to go through?

Because he certainly gave me that cancer is not easy and there’s some suffering that goes on and there is. I guess some uncertainty for sure about what your life’s gonna look like and how long it’s gonna last, what all are you gonna have to go through and all of that kind of things, but really it’s just, it’s putting your focus on Christ. I think that is the key. If somebody’s not a Christian, that’s my first suggestion to them is that they seriously consider a relationship with Jesus Christ. If they are that work to grow closer with him and spend more time with him. Let him use this process. And I guess be flexible. We were talking about, being willing to embrace what he’s brought.

I remember when I, after I had my stem cell transplant, it was a time where, as somebody told me before I had this, they said, “you’re gonna get what we call death bed sick”. And I understand what that means now because they take your  immune system, literally down to zero for a few days. It’s very difficult. When I went through that, I was actually nauseous 24 hours a day for 30 days in a row. And I didn’t want anything to eat. Anytime. Every time we had meal time, I just hated it. I didn’t want anybody to bring anything in, but obviously I had to get food to continue to live through this. The funny thing in, in the hospital, I got to where the one thing I could eat was peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And that was the only thing I could eat that I even halfway enjoyed. And so they laughed because they would just fix me a peanut butter jelly sandwich for every meal. 

Once I was in there for a while, because the other stuff was just so disgusting to me. And not that peanut butter jelly was amazing, but I could eat it. And I could said halfway enjoy it. And I guess that maybe goes back to, as a kid, I love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. 

So, I ate those and went through that process. But when I got through all the treatment, I was in the treatment room as we called it or treatment lab for my last time with the stem cell transplant. And then I would be moved out of that and go back to my reg oncologist. I remember looking back and I looked at the people that were laying there on the beds, that where I had been a lot of them, where I was, where I was down to nothing almost as far as strength and energy and, and immune system and, and everything.

I remember, it just felt like God was telling me. Don’t you ever forget where you were and don’t ever forget to praise me and don’t ever forget what I took you through and how I want to use you to encourage other people. Because now that you’ve come through that, remember how low you were. I mean, physically I was as low as you can get without dying. I remember just getting up to go to the bathroom in my hospital room, which was obviously right there beside the bed. It was exhausting. I mean, I was literally exhausted after I got up and walked to the bathroom, which was like, I don’t know, four or five steps going through that. I just felt like God was turn around and look one more time and look at those people and don’t ever forget it, whatever challenges I may have in life. 

If I look back at that, everything looks pretty good. And I think if you can look back at what God has brought you through and not forget about that, it helps you to see. How blessed you are now, even with the challenges that you may have, how much better off you are and how good he has been to you. And you know, at that point, when I was walking through all that, I never knew I would get to the point I’m at now where, I mean, I’m feeling great. I just have to deal with fatigue. I’ve been able by the grace of God, I’ve been able to continue to work full time, which a lot of people have not been able to do that with this cancer. I’ve just been really, really blessed, but I look back and I know what it’s like though, to be knocked all the way down on the ground, where you are laid out flat.

I think looking back at those times and realizing that God was with me every single day that I was going through that there was a time when I really wondered, am I ever gonna get to where I can eat food again? I mean, after 20 something days of being nauseous, you know, I didn’t know that it was gonna end after 30 days, but I really thought, I don’t know if this is ever gonna change. And the doctors couldn’t tell me when or what was gonna happen. Cause I took an enormous amount of chemo to go through the stem cell transplant. And it just really upended my whole body. 

That was one of those things where I didn’t know how it was gonna turn out or if it was gonna turn in a good way anytime soon.

But through that though, I see that God was there every day. I can look back at people that prayed for me. I can look back at people that encourage me. I can look back at things that I read, just so many things. Every day he gave me just what I needed to get through that day. He’s been so incredibly faithful. And I guess those 30 days were times when he carried me as the footprints and the sandpoint talks about. I can look back and see that. He carried me through that, cause I had absolutely nothing to give at that point yet he brought me through that. So he can do that for everybody else’s listening today.

Carrie: This has really been a great interview and I think so, relevant to people and encouraging, not just for people with cancer, but people who are going through any struggle really in their life right now. Thank you for sharing your story.

John: Thank you. What’s been an honor. And I hope that something, I said, blesses somebody and encourages somebody because I definitely know if you have God in your life, there is no reason to give up.

He is too strong and he’s too powerful. He’s too faithful. And he loves us too much. Whatever is knocked somebody down. Our God is a resurrecting God. He can resurrect the dead. He can sure resurrect our lives. And he’s done that with me, with my cancer. And he can do that for somebody emotionally or physically or whatever they’re going through. I just give him all the glory because he deserves it. And it’s been a real honor to be on the program.

Carrie: As I was coming back from maternity leave, I really needed to get some interviews done. And one day, Steve and I were just kind of going back and forth about different episode topics and things. And he said, “well, you know, you should interview John”. I’m really glad that he made that recommendation because I love how this interview turned out. If you ever want to support our show, you can do so. By going to Patreon, we’re also on by me a coffee for one time donations as always, you can find us anytime on Hope for Anxiety and OCD.com. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.