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Three Strategies to Help Stop Obsessive Praying Today - Carrie Bock

134. Three Strategies to Help Stop Obsessive Praying Today

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode.

Carrie explores how OCD can interfere with your prayer life and offers effective strategies to manage it. She addresses the challenge of repetitive praying and offers practical advice for dealing with OCD’s demands.

Learn how to stay connected with God and maintain a meaningful spiritual practice despite these challenges.

Episode Highlights:

  • How OCD can mess with your prayer life and what to do about it.
  • How to use scripture in your prayers for more focus and clarity.
  • Why it’s crucial to resist the urge to repeat prayers due to OCD’s demands
  • Strategies to overcome obsessive praying.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I share three strategies to help stop obsessive praying, a common struggle for many dealing with OCD. If you find yourself repeating prayers because they don’t feel sincere enough or confessing the same sins repeatedly throughout the day, this episode is for you.

First, I encourage you to try something new in your prayer life. It’s easy to fall into a rut, especially when OCD dictates that there’s only one “right” way to pray. I recommend exploring different prayer methods, like centering prayer or breath prayers, to break free from obsessive patterns. Remember, prayer is about connecting with God and aligning your will with His, not about achieving perfection.

Second, I suggest having a dedicated time for confession. By setting aside intentional moments once or twice a day for confession, you can avoid the cycle of confessing sins repeatedly throughout the day. Trust the Holy Spirit to guide you in this process.

Finally, I talk about resisting the urge to repeat prayers. OCD often convinces us that our prayers weren’t good enough the first time, leading us to repeat them. But God hears us the first time, even when our prayers aren’t perfect. It’s important to remember that OCD-driven anxiety and guilt are false alarms, and you don’t need to give in to them.

I also touch on the benefits of ICBT (Inference-based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) in managing mental compulsions, which we’ll explore more in our upcoming Freedom from Mental Compulsions Challenge. If OCD is impacting your prayer life, consider joining us for the challenge to learn practical tools for breaking free from these patterns.

Thank you for tuning in, and if you found this episode helpful, please consider leaving a review on iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Your support helps other Christians struggling with OCD discover the show. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Explore Related Episodes:

75. God as Close as Your Breath: Breath Prayer with Jennifer Tucker
48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Transcript:

Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower. wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.

We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.

I know some of you have been hearing about this for the last few weeks, but you are down to the wire on the last few days to sign up for the Freedom from Mental Compulsions Challenge. You can sign up at hopeforanxietyandocd. com/challenge. We are going to do some fun giveaways. We’ll give you some coffee gift cards. There’s going to be free coaching with Carrie given away. I’m so excited to be talking with you about ICBT and how that can really help. The way I explained this to someone the other day is if you’re dealing with a physical compulsion, like I’ve got to go check that doorknob lock, from me to my doorknob or my door lock, that might be five to ten seconds, depending on where I am, and I might have some time to think about not going back and checking that, but if you’re struggling with mental compulsions, your brain is always right there, and it’s an easy, quick go to.

ICBT will literally help you train your brain to think differently and to recognize these obsessions as an invalid argument. At the time of this recording, we’ve already got several people signed up, so please come join them: hopeforanxietyandocd.com /challenge.

Today I want to talk with you about three strategies to help stop obsessive praying. Some of you are going through and repeating prayers over and over again because the first time you pray it, something just doesn’t quite feel right, or maybe you’re repeating the prayer because you didn’t feel like you were sincere the first time. Maybe you’re finding that you’re confessing over and over again throughout the day.

We’re going to talk about each one of those things today. The first strategy I have for you is to try something new in your prayer life. This is just good advice for all of us as Christians. Get into a rut of speaking with God the same way all the time. And it’s not bad to follow certain prescriptive prayer methods.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Acts, which is adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication, kind of helping you process instead of just going to God and asking for something, using some of these others, making sure that you’re praising him and thanking him, confessing your sins, all of that. Those types of strategies are good.

If we’re going get out of a rut in our prayer life, be willing to try something new, and this is going to be uncomfortable especially if OCD is telling you, you have to pray this certain way, or no, you didn’t do it right, or it wasn’t good enough or sincere enough. I want to refer you to a couple of previous episodes that we’ve had on prayer. In episode 48, I talked with Rich Lewis on this practice of centering prayer, just really more of a meditative type of prayer, where you’re sitting in silence, you’re focusing in your mind just more on an image, maybe of Jesus, or the focus is more on spending time in God’s presence, allowing God to utilize that time to fill you and bring you at peace in his presence. This is very different than many of us pray. So, I encourage you that if you’ve never done that before, maybe try that. Maybe try sitting in silence and listening. Maybe just taking some time to slow down. There are many different ways to pray, so don’t allow OCD to get you stuck or pigeonholed into just one way of praying.

In episode 75, we talked with Jennifer Tucker about breath prayers. This is where you have certain words that you would say like on the inhale, and they’re based on scripture. For example, you could inhale, “The Lord is my shepherd, and exhale, I shall not want, or you could exhale. I have all that I need.” You can inhale, “The Lord is my refuge and strength.” Exhale, “an ever-present help in times of trouble.” With anything, this in itself could become compulsive as well. You just have to play around with some different things. If you are really sitting and trying this out, I know some people have obsessions about breathing, so that may throw you off. It’s just an opportunity or an invitation to calm your mind and your body while you’re breathing and also speaking out scriptures. Jennifer talked about how breath prayers really helped her get through a difficult time where a lot was happening with her daughter and she just didn’t have a lot of words at that point.

When you’re so overwhelmed or stressed, sometimes, less is more, and really focusing on what is the purpose of our prayer. The purpose of our prayer is to connect with God and to align our will with His. We’re not trying to make something dramatic happen. We’re not trying to change God’s mind or bend His hand.

We are just saying, “Okay, I am here.” I am intentionally focusing myself on connecting with the presence of God because God is the source of everything. That’s it. God has everything that I could ever need in this life, physically, emotionally, spiritually. I want to be abiding in the vine and receiving that nourishment.

That’s what our prayer time is about. It’s about connecting with God and surrendering. It’s not about me. It’s not about what I want today. It’s not about here’s my list of 50 things I want to happen. Yes, it’s totally fine to ask God for things. He wants us to come to him with our needs, with our joys, with our sorrows, with everything, but prayer is about at the end, God’s will be done. “These are the things that I’m laying before you, God, but ultimately I want you and I want your will and your desires to be above my desires.” As you pray and you align yourself with the will of God, then God gives you a heart for certain things that maybe you didn’t have a heart for before. All of a sudden, you start feeling passionate about certain areas or like, “Okay, I feel like God is leading me in this direction.” Maybe you feel like, “Oh, God is asking me to give something up so that I can focus on something else that’s more important. God’s giving me comfort that whatever situation is going to work out.” We can approach it different ways. It may be that you approach it as kind of like a checklist item. “Okay, this is one more thing. I know I really need to pray. It’s a spiritual discipline. I need to do it.”

Maybe you’re in a Christian tradition where you repeat certain prayers. I know in the Orthodox tradition, they have certain morning prayers or evening prayers. I know that in the Catholic tradition, they say certain prayers, and if that’s a part of your particular tradition, you still want those prayers to have meaning and significance and connect you back to God.

Another strategy you can try to shake up your prayer life a little bit if you’ve never done this before, is to pick specific scripture verses to pray. They may be scriptures from the Psalms, or they may be scriptures from the New Testament. So, for example, in James 1, 2, it says, “Consider it a great joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you experience various trials, because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance, and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature, incomplete, lacking, and nothing. “That’s actually James 1, You could even turn this into a prayer regarding your OCD, so you could say, “Dear God, please give me joy in this trial of OCD. Develop my endurance so that I may be more mature, complete, and lacking in nothing.” Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 say, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own understanding.”

In all your ways know him and he will make your path straight. This is a familiar scripture. So if we were to pray that scripture, we would say something similar to, God, I want to trust you. I want to really trust you with all of my heart. Help me to know when I am relying on my own understanding instead of trusting you.

Allow me to know you at a deeper level so that I can follow your path. I know when I do that, that you promise to make my path straight. So there we have a New Testament and Old Testament example of praying the scriptures. Let’s face it, there are going to be times where you’re in a low point, you may feel really overwhelmed, you’re lost, and you just don’t even know what to pray or maybe your mind just feels so full, you may feel down, depressed, lonely, whatever it is. I can think of a couple of different times in my life where that definitely fit my circumstances. One was when I went through my divorce in 2015. That was a really low, depressing point for me. And another one was when I lost my parents, but I remember reading this, another verse in James.

One, where it talks about, the scripture basically says that every good and perfect gift comes from God. So when I realized that, it caused me to shift into this attitude of gratefulness and I just started thanking God for everything that I did have in my life because the loss felt so big. and so overwhelming that at the time was overshadowing the good things that were in my life.

So I intentionally focused my prayer life on gratefulness. Let me just make a very specific list of everything to God that I’m grateful for. I was driving in my car going down the road just saying, okay, God, thank you for this car. It’s old, but it runs well. It gives me where I need to go. I’m able to go to work and back.

I’m able to go to the store and get food. Yes, I’m so thankful I have food on my table. I’m thankful that I have a place to live where I feel safe and comfortable. Just things that we take for granted that not everybody has. If you start thanking God and being in a place of gratitude, that will absolutely shift your mood.

I don’t know how it could not. Gratitude is so good for your mind and emotions and obviously your spirit. Maybe you take some time in your prayer life to really sit and praise God for his character. Praising Him for His holiness, His righteousness, His faithfulness, enduring love, God is incredibly patient.

These are just a few of God’s attributes, but when you start to go through those and praising God, and thinking about his true character, that shifts our mindset to realize how big and how vast and how incredible God is. And if you realize, like, how big and vast and incredible God is, yet at the same time, So profound he wants to have a relationship with us.

This is absolutely mind-blowing when we break it down I know these are things we hear in church, but we don’t really sit and marinate them The God of the universe is holy set apart yet loves you and wants a relationship with you incredible When we realize how big God is, we realize how small our problems really are.

There is no problem that God can’t solve. God is in the business of doing God-sized things. that humans cannot explain or take credit for. I don’t know if you’ve ever been in that situation in your life where you’re like, okay, how am I going to make it through this month? How am I going to pay this medical bill? How am I going to get to work? I got laid off. How am I going to get a job? And then somehow God just shows up because he’s that good. I did not mean to get into all this today, but somebody needed to hear that.

We’re talking about three strategies to help stop obsessive praying. So our first one, we only got through number one. Try something new. Two is have a dedicated time of the day for confession. This is a ditch that you really might be falling into because I see it time and time again. You’re going through your day, you feel really bad about something, you confess it, but then you’re starting to question, Did I sin? Did I not sin? What happened? And then you’re confessing again. Confessing for stuff you’ve already confessed that happened five years ago. It can really cause that obsessive cycle loop to be going on. Let’s not do that. Be intentional one to two times a day, okay? Maybe in the morning, maybe at night, if you’re not fully awake in the morning, do it at lunch, but a couple of times a day where you sit down and you say, okay, Lord, let me think through and be intentional about the things that I’m confessing. And here’s the deal, if you can’t remember it, or the Holy Spirit doesn’t prompt you to remember it, to confess it, wasn’t a sin, we’re not worrying about it, moving on.

We have to trust the conviction of the Holy Spirit as Christians. The Holy Spirit is not going to let you go way off track. The problem is if we start to ignore him. Most of you who are listening to this episode and are trying to be conscientious about confessing, I don’t imagine that you are stiff-arming the Holy Spirit.

I’ve had clients who have practiced this dedicated confession time and they have told me that it really cuts down on getting stuck in that confessional loop spiral where you’re feeling questioning sin and feeling like you’re having to confess all day long. And the third strategy is I know it’s going to be hard for some of you.

Resist that urge to repeat that prayer because here’s the story that OCD is going to spin you. It’s going to tell you that your prayer wasn’t sincere enough. Were you even thinking about what you were saying? You need to go back and do that again. Just to make sure. And then OCD might start attacking your character and your relationship with God and all this other extra.

You have to remember that OCD brings up these real intense feelings of anxiety that are going to lead you to believe, or it could be a feeling of guilt, or may just feel like something just doesn’t feel quite right. And in those moments, you can’t trust those feelings because they are a false alarm of your threat detection system.

So when OCD is encouraging you to repeat that prayer, you don’t need to. God heard it the first time. My daughter is only two years old, so she doesn’t have a full vocabulary, but she’s starting to speak more and more in sentences, which is really cool because When she was younger, you just had to guess at what she wanted or what she needed.

It’s kind of hit or miss, but the cool thing is I do want her to talk to me. I don’t always understand what she says. She blurs things together because she’s still learning. But I want to hear from her. I want her to speak to me. God wants to hear from his children, too. And quite frankly, we don’t always get it right.

Sometimes we ask for some dumb stuff. My daughter might ask me for cookies right before dinner. I’m gonna be like, no, you can’t have that. I look back at things that I thought I wanted. I’m glad God didn’t answer those prayers, okay? But he heard everyone and he cared about me enough as a good father to give me what I needed, not always what I wanted.

So if you’re having perfectionism issues with your prayer life, Know that it doesn’t have to be perfect. God wants to hear from you. Communicate with him. If you find OCD is really messing with your prayer life, please join us at the Freedom from Mental Compulsions Challenge. You only have a few more days to sign up.

It is on August the 5th at noon Central Time. We’re going to be talking about how ICBT can help with mental compulsions. I’m going to be teaching through the 12 modules of ICBT very soon and would love to see you there. I want to share with you one of our iTunes reviews. This is by Marnie. I cannot thank you enough for this podcast and how much it is truly helping me.

I’ve been listening to as many episodes as possible since I found it last week. I’m beginning a new counseling journey where I now feel so much hope to be vulnerable and heal from shame due to lifelong anxiety and OCD. I feel a sense of relief and grace, encouraged and so hopeful. I truly cannot tell you enough what listening to these episodes has done for me already.

I will be forever grateful. Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Marnie. I received two emails this week from individuals in Canada as well. So hello to our Canadian listeners. We’re so glad that you’re here. And until we get our new website built, don’t get me started. Breathe. Patience. We are still at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Were you blessed by today’s episode? If so, I’d really appreciate it if you would go over to your iTunes account or Apple Podcasts App on your computer if you’re an Android person and leave us a review. This really helps other Christians who are struggling with OCD be able to find our show.

Christian Faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.

127. Do I need therapy? How to Know and Why Summer is the Best Time! with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

In this episode, Carrie explores the signs that indicate you might need therapy and why summer is the prime season to begin your mental health journey

Episode Highlights:

  • How to recognize signs indicating you might need therapy.
  • The benefits of starting therapy during the summer months.
  • Practical tips for evaluating your mental health and well-being.
  • The advantages of intensive therapy sessions for busy schedules or ongoing issues.

Episode Summary:

If you’ve been asking yourself, “Do I need therapy?” or if someone has suggested it, this episode will guide you through key indicators that therapy could be beneficial. We’ll discuss how feelings of overwhelm, difficulty managing daily tasks, or strained relationships might signal that it’s time to seek professional help.

Therapy is a powerful tool for managing mental health issues like anxiety and OCD. If you’re experiencing symptoms such as persistent worry, obsessive thoughts, or a general sense of burnout, therapy might be the right step. In this episode, I’ll also share why summer is an ideal time to begin therapy. With a potentially lighter schedule, this season offers a unique opportunity to focus on self-care, build new coping skills, and address underlying issues before they escalate.

If you’re considering therapy but feel uncertain, I encourage you to listen to this episode and take that first step toward healing. Therapy is not a sign of weakness; it’s a proactive choice to invest in your mental and emotional well-being. Whether you’re looking for a few sessions to gain clarity or more intensive work through a therapy retreat, I’m here to support you.

Explore related episodes:

Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 127. I am your host, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Today, we’re going to talk about, “Do I need therapy? How do I know if I need therapy?” Maybe someone in your life has been telling you, “Hey! You need to go to therapy”. Let’s look at how you might really need to know if therapy could be a good option for you. Also as a bonus, “Why summer really is the best time to go to therapy?” 

Number one, maybe you’re not functioning in your day-to-day life as you normally do and as you would like to. Let’s look at different domains of your life. How about home? Are you sleeping? Are you able to complete activities of daily living, as some people call them?

Things like showering, getting out of bed, feeding yourself, going to work, or doing your day-to-day activities if you don’t go to work. You want to look at how you are functioning. Are you able to do some of these things? Is it a lot harder maybe than it used to be? That might be an indication that there might be some kind of mental health situation going on for yourself.

If you’re having to drag yourself out of bed every morning just to get going or to function, you find that you can’t sleep at night because you’re super anxious, just worrying about things all the time, that might be an indicator that you might need to go to therapy. What about work or school? That would be another area we might look at to see how you’re functioning.

If you are going to work, all you can think about is what’s going on at home in your household. You’re going to work, maybe you’re completing tasks, but there’s absolutely no joy. You just feel dry. You wonder,” Why am I even in this job anymore?” We all go through different processes with our various jobs or careers.

It might be super stressful and you’re having a hard time either dealing with the work stress or the home stress. Maybe you find that you are late to work on a repetitive basis because you keep checking all the door locks and you keep checking to make sure the oven is off and the curling iron has been unplugged, that might be an indicator or red flag to you, like, “Hey, this OCD ritual behavior is now starting to impact my work life.”

Maybe you have to do presentations at work and you get super nervous speaking in front of people. Maybe you have different job responsibilities than you used to have. Usually what happens when people come to counseling is something has changed, something has shifted. Maybe your work has been going fine, but you’re scared to fly, and then you find out work wants you to go to one to two conferences a year that are out of state. And you would have to fly because it’s not close enough or feasible enough for you to drive there and back. If your boss is coming to you concerned, like, “Hey, I’ve noticed you’re here, but you’re not really here.” That might be a good indicator that it’s time to get some help. Three, how are you functioning in your relationships? What about people that you live with at home? Whether it’s a roommate, or whether it’s a spouse, whether it’s your kids, do you find yourself frequently getting irritated at those people, or constantly getting into conflict or arguments?

Maybe there’s no conflict, sometimes people just get tired of fighting, and then there’s this underlying tension. Or lack of communication, so it can go either way. Sometimes the climate of the home is just we’re not talking at all, and that’s not healthier than people who are yelling all the time. Those are both in states of unhealth where.

Something needs to be done in order to have more peace at home. So you want to look at your relationships. Do you have friendships? Do you have people that you connect with on a regular basis? I know that we’re all busy, but at the same time, we all need some sense of community and connection. I know a lot of people struggle with anxiety or struggle with getting out there and socializing.

If those are challenges for you or things that are keeping you from engaging in relationships, maybe you want to date, but it absolutely terrifies you. I went to therapy for that many years ago before I met my husband. That was a thing for me because I had been through a divorce and I was hurting and didn’t want to get hurt again. At the same time, I’d done a lot of healing and felt like I was ready to move forward with my life. So if your relationships or inability to engage in a relationship, a future relationship that you would like, are impacting you, I would encourage you to consider therapy as an option. What about your relationship with yourself?

We all have a relationship with ourselves. Some people are super self-critical, they never have any grace for themselves, they never allow themselves to make a mistake, and in those situations, I would say that that’s pretty unhealthy and can keep you from doing things that you want to do in your life, can keep you from taking risks, it can keep you from taking a break and a much-needed rest.

You’re constantly pushing yourself. Usually, we have these two parts inside. One is pushing us towards good things, and one is self-sabotaging that in some way, shape, or form. The Bible calls this your flesh, sin nature, and then your spirit nature. If you’re a Christian, how are you seeing those things in your day-to-day life?

Are you engaging in self-destructive behavior, such as self-harm, addictive behaviors, drinking, or overusing, prescription drugs, those types of situations? How are you in relationship with yourself, with your soul, your spiritual connection to God, all of those pieces are really important. And then lastly, maybe you just need an outside third party or objective point of view on your current life situation. I remember there have been times where people have come to see me for one session just to ask, Is this normal? Usually, people who are asking the question, Is this normal? Typically what they’re experiencing is normal. I won’t say that that’s always the case, but a lot of times it is people who are going through situations such as grief and loss.

Sometimes you can have very conflicting emotions in grief and loss situations in a divorce situation. In a parenting situation, there can be conflicting emotions, and it’s hard to navigate on your own or tease out. Sometimes we feel like we’re supposed to be feeling a certain way. We say, Is this okay? Is this how I’m supposed to be feeling or is this a normal response? A lot of times if we haven’t experienced that before, or we don’t know someone else who’s been through it, or we don’t feel like we can actively share this with other people in our personal life, sometimes it’s helpful to have that listening ear to bounce those ideas off of.

Maybe you just feel like you need some different ways of approaching situations or other people in your life. Maybe you’re trying to learn a particular relationship skill, such as setting boundaries. That’s an important one. We’ve talked about that on the podcast before. We’ve talked about the importance of setting boundaries.

What is a boundary and how do I set one? So go look in our show notes. We’ll link to those episodes. Maybe you are wanting to go to therapy to learn some specific strategies for dealing with OCD. That would be a great opportunity for you to go to therapy. I think a lot of times people have these stigmas.

We have hopefully broken a lot of those down in our society, but they still exist in some circles. Like, if you go to therapy, that means something, like, seriously is wrong with you. That’s not the case. Sometimes you may only need to go for a few sessions. You may just need to get some objectivity.

I’ve had people come in that have told me that they’ve had those types of experiences. I’ve certainly had those types of experiences with clients where, They just kind of needed a little boost in the right direction or some problem-solving, and then they were able to go on their way. Maybe you do feel like you need a lot more, and that’s okay too.

Wherever you’re at, there’s no fear or shame surrounding getting help for yourself. Why is summer the best time to get therapy? This is a secret from the inside world of therapists. Summer is often a slower time for therapists. The reason is that people are genuinely feeling happier. The sun is shining outside, the kids are out of school, and there’s less stress in the home because we’re not having to maybe run them around to as many activities.

I don’t know. That depends on the family and the age of your children. You could be just as busy during the summer as a school year, but you may not be scrambling to find the red shirt to wear on red shirt day. But people are usually going on vacations during the summer. You may think, I’m feeling pretty good this summer.

Why do I need to go to therapy? If we’ve been through some of the other things and you know that you have stuff to work on, you know that you want to build in skills, you know that you want to be able to learn certain things, when you’re not stressed, that’s the best time to learn new skills. What I have seen happen over and over and over again is people will know that they have trauma to work through. Things from their past that they know are affecting their relationships in their day-to-day life. A lot of times, what they’ll do is they’ll wait until they hit a crisis point to get counseling. Hey, there’s no wrong time to come to counseling. If you’re in a crisis, absolutely come to counseling and get what you need, but if you know that there are some bumps in the road and you probably want to get help before it gets worse, that’s a great time to initiate therapy. Do not wait until things get super bad to feel like you have to then come in at that point. The summer is an awesome time to build in learning experiences.

You will probably get on the therapist’s schedule faster or a little bit easier. Keep that in mind. We really get super busy when people are like back in the swing of school around September, or October, things can be really slammed or in between holidays, sometimes holidays are busy, sometimes they’re slow, it just depends.

A lot of people will tell you, yeah, during the summer, therapists may look different. They may take more time off. I don’t know, but it may be the best time for you to come to therapy. And if you’ve ever thought, I don’t really feel like I have the time for therapy to go once a week to unpack stuff and then pack it back up, especially for clients who have experienced a lot of chronic childhood trauma, those are some of the clients that I find I work the best with.

What we have found works amazing is for them to come for an intensive day, for them to come for a therapeutic multi-day retreat so that they have the time and space to unpack some of those things in the past without having to go to therapy Unpack the past, pack it back up, and keep doing that over and over on a weekly basis.

Meanwhile, while crises are going on, oh, this situation happened with this family member, and now I need to take time away from trauma processing to process that, or this other situation happened, and now we’re focused on that instead of focusing on the past situations that are contributing to present responses.

If you have ever thought about maybe I just need to take some time for myself, maybe you’re a busy professional, you work a lot of hours, maybe you just say, I need to block off a day or a few days for some self-care, get a kind of a therapeutic retreat situation happening for me. Please contact me either through the podcast or through my counseling website, bythewellcounseling.com. I would love to explore that option with you a little bit more. Until next time. I hope you found this episode helpful, and I will see you again next week. 

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. you

106. Maximizing Your First Counseling Session with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode.

On today’s episode, Carrie delves into the importance of maximizing your first counseling session. She offers insights and tips on how to navigate your initial counseling session effectively while emphasizing the importance of building a genuine therapeutic connection.

Episode Highlights:

  • The importance of managing expectations and not overwhelming your first counseling session with too much information.
  • How to build a good connection with your therapist right from the start.
  • The significance of assessing the counselor’s approach and the therapeutic environment to ensure a good fit.
  • Strategies for communicating your needs, goals, and boundaries effectively with your counselor.

Episode Summary:

Hi there, I’m Carrie Bock, a licensed counselor from Tennessee, and in this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I want to help you get the most out of your first counseling session.

I often see clients who come in feeling the need to share everything at once—like dumping a jumbled play script on the floor. They try to fit their entire story into a single 50-minute session, which is just not realistic. Even with my own 40 years of life, I couldn’t cover every detail in that short time.

The first session is about starting to build a connection. It’s not about telling your whole life story but giving a broad overview of your life: your daily routine, work, family, or even how your pets provide comfort. You don’t need to share everything in one go. If you’re feeling overwhelmed, jot down the key points you want to cover. Intake paperwork can help frame your story too, so use it to your advantage.

Ultimately, therapy is a journey of building a supportive relationship where you can work towards your goals. Reflect on what you hope to achieve and what you’re willing to do to reach those goals. If your first counselor isn’t the right match, keep searching until you find someone who truly supports your healing journey.

Thank you for joining me on this episode. May you find comfort and guidance in your path to healing.

Explore further:

33. What is it Like to be a Counselor? Steve Interviews Carrie

Transcript

Christian Faith and OCD, episode 106. I wanted to do a show on maximizing your first counseling session, and I’ll tell you a little story about where the idea for this episode came from. Sometimes, I have people who come in, and they feel the need to tell me absolutely everything or for me to understand the totality of the story. There’s like this pressure or urgency. And I gave this analogy to Steve. I said it’s almost like somebody comes in with a play. The play has about ten characters, but all the pages are shuffled, so they’re out of order. Somebody dumps it on the floor, and I’m trying to make sense of what’s happening in this story.

If you’re going to your first counseling session, I want you to relieve yourself of some of that pressure to get all of the information out in one 50-minute session. It’s just impossible. I mean, think about it: I’m 40 years old. I could probably write a long book on my entire life story, and to believe that I could somehow share all the pertinent pieces with someone in a 50-minute session is unrealistic.

The first session is for your counselor to get to know you, for you to get to know your counselor. Having a general big picture of what’s going on in your life, how you spend your time, if you’re working, going to school, what your family life is like. Maybe you don’t have a family and come home to snuggle with the dogs.

That’s still relevant because maybe that’s a robust support system for you to have that comfort of your animals. So, trying to get a big picture, overarching view of where are the strengths in this person’s life? What do the support systems look like? What do the relationships look like?

Sometimes, people can get bogged down in a particular story. And they were jumping around to different timelines of that story. It may be helpful if you have a lot that you need to get out; maybe jot down what you feel are the most important things. Now, depending on how your counselor does their paperwork process, I often have opportunities where people can go into more depth in my intake paperwork. Some people use that to do that, and they feel more comfortable with it. Other times, people don’t want to put much information down, and they glance over that. But sometimes, that paperwork can at least provide the frame of reference. Who are the players in this play, and what’s the general overarching theme of the space versus having to figure it out by a bunch of different stories where somebody is all over the place just verbally vomiting? I wanted to make everyone aware that you don’t have to talk about things you don’t want to talk about in the first session.

That’s important to capitalize on because counselors are naturally nosy, and we want to know certain things, so we may ask questions that are more personal or vulnerable than you want to go in your first meeting with your therapist. It’s entirely okay for you to say, “I’m not quite ready to talk about that,” or, “I know I need to go there, but I don’t feel comfortable yet. Can we address that in a future session?” Often, people go into these counseling situations not knowing what to expect but not thinking through their needs and wants. For the session, I think this doesn’t just apply to the first session but can also apply to other sessions.

Sometimes, I’ll ask people, “What do you think is the best use of our time today?” Or, “What would you like to get into or process today?” Because you have a sense of that inside. Maybe you need to bounce some ideas off someone and get feedback like, “Okay, is what I’m thinking off base? Or is it a normal experience that I’m going through?”

Sometimes, you need to vent, for lack of a better word. You need to get all of your thoughts and feelings out and run them by somebody so the person can kind of help you can summarize and give it back to you in a way where you will gain new insight on it. And so there’s certainly, definitely value on that. There may be other times where you say, “What I need today, this kind of tuning in is I need to learn some skills to manage this situation in my life or be able to manage this relationship.” And then, by diving in and asking more questions, we can get more information.

I’m always hesitant to give people advice right off the bat. Let me caveat that because it depends on the situation, but we don’t always have enough information in the first session to give you certain levels of guidance on something, and maybe that’s a really good topic. Let’s ask these questions and explore that a bit more; ultimately, you are the decision-maker in your life.

I’m not the person who will be dealing with the consequences of whatever choice is made. So, I know that can be difficult for some people because they want the counselor to go in and tell them precisely what to do. And all that does is make you dependent on somebody to get answers. You can do this with pastors, parents, and other people.

If you say, “Okay, I have this problem. What do I do? Go to that person. They give me advice. I follow it. Next time I have a problem, I go back to that.” You want to come to a place where you can think critically and make decisions independently. And sometimes, when dealing with anxiety and OCD, you don’t have the confidence or comfort to make those decisions alone.

If there’s one thing I would want you to know, it’s that your first counseling session is about building a safe and healthy relationship with your counselor so that you feel you can do the work together that you need to do. I recently took my daughter to a new pediatrician because hers left the practice.

Steve and I were able to process because he also went to the appointment that we didn’t feel 100 percent comfortable after that first visit that this will be our child’s long-term pediatrician. However, we decided to give her another try. It’s like, did we have this interaction, and it was an off-interaction?

Maybe she had a bad day. Maybe I was extra sensitive today. Whatever the situation, or was this just somebody, I got a negative feeling. I didn’t feel safe or comfortable with them, and I don’t think I will be able to handle my daughter’s whatever health concerns she has come up with.

Maybe this is not the person I want to help us walk through any of those, and that’s a hard call, I think, sometimes to make after the first session. So, say you go to the first session, and there are some things you feel good about and maybe some things you don’t feel good about. You might want to refrain from judgment until perhaps the second session.

Think about this as any other relationship that you run into. So, for example, maybe you and a co-worker get off on the wrong foot, or you and a roommate get off on the wrong foot, but then perhaps the next time you meet up and talk, things are a little different, or you see where they were going with it, or their perspective is different.

Ultimately, you want to feel a sense of safety and comfort to open up and talk about hard things. I know people who have been in counseling for several sessions and still don’t feel that sense of safety and positive connection with their counselor after a month or two. At that point, it’s okay to say this may not be a good fit.

As a therapist, I must accept that I’m not what everybody wants. I try to be as compassionate as possible. Still, I can sometimes be very direct and aggressive because I want to help people move toward their goals and improve. I’m not the right therapist for someone who wants to come in every week and complain about the same things but not be willing to do anything to change those things.

That’s not a valuable use of my time or theirs. Questions to ask yourself after the first session. Is this counselor someone that I feel safe and comfortable opening up to? Can this counselor help me with the issue I’m bringing into counseling? Hopefully, you can answer this by looking at their website or having a short conversation with them via email or phone before your first session.

Ideally, you’d want to make sure that’s an area that your counselor works with. Sometimes, though, people will have experiences of a counselor saying, “Yes, I can work with you on OCD, or Yes, I can help you with anxiety reduction.” But you may not feel comfortable with the way they’re doing that.

I started using more parts of language and inner child work a few years ago. And had a client tell me, “You know, this just isn’t working for me.” And it was good. It was helpful feedback that let us discuss what she was looking for in therapy and who might be the best person to give that to her, even if it wasn’t me.

There are some times when we can change directions in therapy. Maybe I’m trained in something different, or I see how another therapeutic technique might be beneficial, and sometimes it’s me, and sometimes it’s not, and that’s okay. Another question you might want to ask is, did I feel comfortable with the environment that I saw my therapist in?

Thinking about my therapeutic experiences, I know some environments I felt much more comfortable in than others, based on where the building was located, how the waiting room was set up, and what the counselor’s office was like. Some of those things may seem minor. But if it’s someplace you will go to repeatedly, you want to ensure you feel comfortable with some of those elements.

Otherwise, that may be a barrier to getting what you need, and you don’t want that to happen. I would encourage you to think about the timing of your first session. Would it be better for you to do that on a day off or a day that you can leave work early, especially if you don’t know how you’re going to react or respond, you don’t know what emotions are going to be stirred up for you, and that is something that can be hard to deal with especially if therapy is new for you. I remember one time I was practicing with some other therapists on different techniques, and we were doing an awareness exercise that wasn’t supposed to be particularly troublesome or triggering, but in the process of that Awareness exercise and the feedback that I received from the other therapist. I got super triggered, which shook me up for a good chunk of the day afterward. It was completely unexpected, something that came out of nowhere. Think about your timing in terms of going to therapy. Because something may trigger you or upset you, or you may become aware. That you didn’t see coming.

You want to be able to work with your therapist on coming up with a goal for yourself. And even though it may not be fully clarified in the first session, it may take a little while to tune in and realize this. You want to ask yourself, “What do you want or hope to get out of that time?”

Often, people will make generic comments like, “I want to feel better,” “I just wish not to be anxious,” or “I want to be less depressed.” And in those situations, we’re focusing so much on reducing the symptom. We’re not focused on what’s behind that, what’s beyond the symptom for you, so when you feel less depressed, can you connect better with your spouse? Does that mean you can leave the house more and attend your kid’s sporting events? Does it mean that you’ll feel more confident to present at work? What does it mean? If you can dig a little bit deeper and answer some of those things for yourself, that might help you know what’s getting in the way of you feeling better.

Even if all you can see is the symptom right now in front of you because it’s so big or so bold, trying to imagine what life is like beyond this symptom can give you and instill in you a sense of hope that even though you may, for example, struggle with anxiety later in your life, it’s not something probably that’s going to be magically cured or gone away. What would it be like if you had a different relationship with it where it didn’t hinder you from being the person you want to be or doing the things you want to do? That may be hard to imagine at the beginning of therapy, but if you can, it will help push your brain toward that more hopeful track; I can have a better experience than I’m having right now.

Another consideration would be, what are you willing to do to get what you want? So, if you’re saying that you want less anxiety, are you ready to practice relaxation strategies outside of your counseling process? Are you willing to take the time to journal about some of your triggers?

Are you willing to expose yourself to challenging situations appropriately so that you can let your mind and body know that you can do these hard things that it doesn’t believe you can do? And if you are willing to do those hard things, what kind of support might you need from your therapist or others in your life to do the hard things that will help you get to a better place with your mental health?

There may be something that your therapist says or does that isn’t necessarily wrong or unethical in some way. It’s just off-putting. So, for example, I had a therapist, I think, that was a little bit more of a behavioral bent. I saw her only for one session. The reason was that she had this timer. That went off 15 minutes before the session ended and then again 5 minutes before the session ended. It felt superfluous and unnecessary to me, and I felt a little bit like I was being treated like a child. I’m pretty sure she sees other clients who don’t have a problem with it, or they may feel like, in their situation, it’s helpful to them to keep them on track. Maybe the therapist feels that way for herself.

It helps her keep track of her session ending and wrap-up time. I think more than a personal preference of just not liking it was that I didn’t feel like I had any say or choice in the whole-timer situation. It might have been slightly different if she said, “Is it okay if we try this,” kind of like inviting me into the process?

Is it okay if we try this timer and see if you find it helpful, or do I find the valuable timer for me? Would it be okay if we tried it out? It was just kind of something that was thrown in there.

In closing, the last thing I want to say is that if you don’t find a good therapeutic fit on the first try, that’s okay. Don’t give up; get up and try again. We do the same thing with doctors we might not feel comfortable with or dentists we might not feel satisfied with. We go out and find a different provider. At that point, the worst thing we could do is say, “Oh, well, maybe therapy’s just not for me.” That’s like saying, “Well, maybe I shouldn’t get my teeth cleaned because I didn’t feel comfortable with that dentist.”

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

93. Incognito Christian Counselors with Ann Taylor McNiece, LMFT

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode.

Join Carrie as she dives into an interesting conversation with Ann Taylor McNiece, LMFT on Incognito Christian Counselors and the integration of faith into mental health counseling

Episode Highlights:

  • Why some counselors are hesitant to publicly identify as Christians.
  • How Christian counselors can provide evidence-based therapy while integrating faith and scripture.
  • Challenges of finding specialized treatment for conditions like OCD and navigating treatment outside of one’s faith.
  • Importance of asking questions and advocating for oneself in therapy.

Related links and Resources:

Ann Taylor McNiece, LMFT

More Episodes to Listen to:

14. How to Find a Therapist Who is Right for You

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, Episode 93! I’m Carrie Bock, your host, and I’m so glad you’re here with us today.

Today’s episode features a special guest: Ann Taylor McNiece, a licensed marriage and family therapist and the host of the Soul Grit podcast. Ann and I dive deep into the topic of integrating faith with mental health counseling, something we’re both passionate about.

Ann shares her journey of blending theology and psychology, drawing from her own experiences with depression and her early aspirations to combine faith with counseling. We tackle the challenges some therapists face when incorporating their faith into their practice, including the constraints of legal and ethical guidelines.

We discuss why some counselors may be reluctant to publicly identify as Christian and the fear of potentially alienating clients. We also explore how combining Christian principles with evidence-based therapies can be incredibly beneficial for those struggling with OCD and other mental health issues.

For more insights from Ann, be sure to check out her podcast, Soul Grit, and visit her website at soulgritresources.com. There, you’ll find her free e-course on Cognitive Behavior Therapy with Scripture and other valuable resources.

Thank you for tuning in! I hope this episode inspires and supports you as you integrate your faith with your mental health journey.

Explore Related Episode:

33. What is it Like to be a Counselor? Steve Interviews Carrie

Transcript

Welcome to Christian Faitn and OCD, Episode 93. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and I’m so glad that you are joining us today to listen to this show

Today on the show we have Ann Taylor McNiece, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist and podcast host of Soul Grit. I am happy to have her here to talk with us about the integration of faith and Counseling.

_____________

Carrie: Welcome to the show. I think that we share a similar passion in regards to integration of faith into mental health counseling, and we both went to seminary, different seminaries, but how did this become a passion of yours? 

Ann: I can actually remember the early years of college just kind of dreaming about this marriage of theology and psychology, and I was just starting to learn more about it. I’ve been a Christian my whole life, but I had just recently started to struggle with depression and had my first experience of counseling in my senior year of high school. And just from there, I started having this dream in my heart that more people need to be aware that these two things fit together. God created our minds and God created helpers that understand the mind and wanna help people and just reach their fullness of life to get away from things like anxiety, depression, and other common health problems that we see.

Carrie: This is so prevalent in the church. There’s so many people who are struggling with common mental health issues, anxiety, depression, even things in the church, people who are struggling with ADHD or autism. There’s so much that’s going on that a lot of times we don’t talk about it enough, and so I’m glad that we’re able to talk about it.

Our faith can be fully integrated. I like to say we can have all of Jesus and all of really good psychological teachings because everything points us back to God. 

Ann: If it’s something good and true and it works and it’s healthy, and that’s coming from God. Humans didn’t create that stuff. 

Carrie: Absolutely, and I think there’s so much more that obviously that God knows than we do about these things because he created our brain and our mind and knows all the intricacies of how everything works. Why do you think some counselors are hesitant to publicly say that they’re a Christian?

Ann: I think it depends if you really are a Christ follower because being a Christian can mean a lot of things. You’re in a different area of the country than I am in Southern California. It might mean something different than it means in the Bible Belt or the South, just to say you’re Christian.

It’s not a very good descriptor of what the person’s actually bringing to the table for one thing. And then the other part is that some therapists are unsure about what are the actual legal and ethical guidelines for bringing your faith into the counseling room. So some people might think, “Oh, I went to grad school. I learned how to be a counselor. I got my license. And I’m never supposed to talk about religion or spirituality or Jesus ever again in my professional context,” and I think sometimes we might get that even from public school kinds of mentalities or separation of church and state. The thing is, there’s nothing about State in my private practice of counseling.

I don’t really have those same guidelines, like a teacher or a politician might have to try to keep those things separate. But I think it comes from people not knowing what are the guidelines and how much can I share with all concerned that will it be ethical for me to share. Will this client feel like I’m proselytizing or trying to evangelize them instead of attending with empathy to their concerns that they’re bringing into the counseling room.

There’s another fear that counselors have just if I put out on my website that I’m a Christian counselor or if I have like a little Jesus cross or a fish or something on my business card to identify me as a counselor or maybe like a scripture reference or something like, Christians are going to know that I’m for them, but am I going to alienate all the other people? Then it comes from this mindset of if I don’t advertise or market myself to everybody. I’m not going to be able to fill my practice and then I’m gonna suffer a financial loss because I won’t have enough clients.

Carrie: I think that’s a huge one. Just in terms of how I was trained. Like if you were trained with really great faith integration, but then you’re also trained as a professional to see everyone regardless of what their needs are. You have to put aside what your belief system is in terms of working with the client from their belief system.

For a long time, I think I fell into what I’m titling this episode, the Incognito Christian counselor standpoint. I wasn’t open about my faith, and it’s actually this podcast that has helped me more than anything step into true authenticity of who I am in my marketing as a therapist, because I thought, well, I never really saw myself as a Christian counselor because sometimes when I think of that, I think of some person that’s opening up a Bible and is, Hey, let’s talk about this scripture and how it applies to your life and your situation.

There certainly are opportunities that I may bring certain things up or ask clients, are you familiar with this Bible story? Or that type of thing. Based off of what they’re saying. But it’s not as, I think formal, maybe as I viewed it.  When I came out with this podcast, I thought, this makes no sense. I have a very Christian name if you understand the Bible because my name is By The Well Counseling.  People who are familiar with the John 4 story are like, “Oh, well okay. She gets it. She has a Bible.” I did have that and then I would say a little something about that on my website. I might check that I was Christian on Psychology today, and I might have a verse at the bottom. But I didn’t really go into like, Hey, my faith is a big passion of mine and I really believe that we can integrate really well.

I think it’s definitely been a big shift in my practice over the last couple of years as to having more Christian clients or clients seek me out because I am a Christian, especially since having the podcast for the last two years. I do think that some people in the community, even other therapists, probably think, oh, well, we’re not going send certain clients to her if they’re not Christian. I have to say, that’s okay how they’re going to view me and I really can’t control that. I think we spend so much time trying to control how other people see us in all contexts, not just in a professional context. 

Ann: I think that the clients I want to see are the ones that are going to want to see me. It’s not so much like you said, bringing out your Bible and telling them what verses are going to apply to their situation, or let’s just sit down and pray about it. All of those things are good things to do.

Those kinds of interventions might find themselves more in a pastoral or biblical counseling setting or where licensed therapists, who, we have a state licensure that’s vetted us. We have done our 3000 hours, we’ve done all the things that we need to be clinical providers, we are going to bring all of that. But what’s gonna underlie all of this as our foundation is a shared value and a shared hope. When it comes down to, I’m doing cognitive behavioral therapy with somebody and they can’t get to that part where they need to create an alternative thought. I’m gonna say, okay, well if you can’t get to it, let’s ask God, what would God say about this? And we’ll find a scripture to that matches what they need to do. And it’s not because I am, well just read the Bible and that’s cover everything that you’re going through. That informs everything that I do as a professional counselor.

Carrie: Another reason I wanted to have this episode too is I think especially for our folks who are struggling with OCD, they have a hard time finding someone who has that training in OCD  evidence-based therapies and treatments, while also having the value systems of Christianity. Part of that is because a lot of the OC D treatment has to do with behaviorism, and that’s not that it’s directly in conflict with Christianity. I think it’s just a little bit different way of looking at the world and we see people as more than just higher evolved animals, is a way to say it, but which is a lot of behaviorism is based on those kind of ideas.

I’m curious, for you as a Christian, do you feel like you would ever see a counselor who wasn’t a Christian? Maybe if you had a certain diagnosis that you needed treating or as you were seeking out a certain type of therapy, and how would you navigate that if you would?

Ann: Well, I certainly want to leave room for. Some of us need really specialized treatment and some of us lived in parts of the country where it’s harder to find providers. Like I said, I’m in Southern California, probably an hour’s drive. I can find a specialist in whatever I wanna be specialized in. Right? But if you live in a different part of the country, especially if you’re seeking in-person therapy versus on a screen like we all did for the pandemic.

Sometimes you want a person that you can be present in the room with and you need them to have a specialization is going to help you break through something and that person may or may not be a believer. There are gonna be times when that is necessary, but for me personally, what I struggle with is depression.

That’s a general thing. Sometimes just figuring out next steps in life, or I might go to marriage counseling or something like those things that I’m dealing with, I’m going to want to have Christian counselor because I know there are people who have faith in God who have similar values and similar understanding worldview that have the training that I need to get through the things that I’m dealing with. I think you have to allow room for both when you can see a Christian counselor and when there’s something that just needs specialists, go ahead and do that, and you just make the best of it.

Carrie: It’s okay to ask questions. It’s okay to ask your therapist what their value system is. They may or may not want to answer that for you, just kind of depending on how they work, but it’s fully within your right to ask where someone is coming from or what type of treatment methods they use.

Know that you’re in an empowered place regardless of where you find yourself in treatment. I’m thinking that we may have a friends that listen to the show that have had to go to an in-patient treatment, or they’ve had to go to an IOP treatment, and it’s not something that’s covered by their insurance.

It’s probably not going to be a Christian-run facility most likely talking to the counselors about what your values are, these are things that are very important to me and I wanna make sure that we’re utilizing them in counseling in a healthy way, and I wanna make sure that you kind of understand where I’m coming from and what’s important to me. And ethically, whether your counselor is a Christian or not, they have to respect that. 

Ann: Exactly. What I really think that God is faithful in this area, that when you’re in a really bad place with your mental health condition, and you need to have some of these higher level of arrangement is made for you like he’s gonna be faithful.

Just be surprised that there’s going to be another patient there, or there’s going to be a nurse, or a therapist or a behavioral tech or something like that. You’re not going to know at first, but then you’re going to find out that person also loves God. And then God’s going to put those pieces together for you so that you can have an experience of getting the healing that you need with that kind of high level of specialty. He is also going be right there saying, “I see you. I know what you need.” As you move down from the higher level of care back into just regular weekly therapy with your therapist, like maybe that might be an opportunity to say, okay, I learned all these kind of technical skills in my IOP or whatever it might be, but now can you help me figure out how I integrate those things that I learned with what I know to be true in the Bible and what God’s doing in my life. And that’s a really good launching point for the next phase.

Carrie: Absolutely. I really like how you worded that. I do think that God is always with us in walking us through situations and just giving us those little glimpses of like, “Hey, I’m here for you. You’re going to be okay. You’re going to be able to make it through. This is one of the reasons that you started your podcast because of your own mental health struggles. 

Ann: I think I got into counseling because of my own mental health struggles. But I started the podcast because I saw this need in my community. And yes, it’s Southern California, but my particular community is a little bit smaller and so I was looking for people that I could refer patients to when they were requesting a Christian counselor and I was either full or didn’t take their insurance or whatever, and I would reach out to people and a couple of times I got emails back that would say something like, yes, I’m personally a Christian, but I don’t offer Christian counseling. Why not? That just didn’t make sense to me.

I had to go back and think through all of those reasons why a person who had no faith in Jesus wouldn’t want to bring that into their professional setting. Carrie, you and I both had a seminary background. We had classes that specifically taught us, okay, you’ve had bible and theology. You’ve had clinical classes, here’s how you put them together, and here’s how you bring that into your career, into the room with your clients, but a lot of people who were trained either in a secular university or some other kind of program didn’t have that advantage. Maybe they just don’t know how to do it and don’t have the confidence to do that. I started creating resources that would help them learn how to integrate their personal faith into the practice that they already know how to do.

They’ve already licensed counselors or pre-licensed, and they want to be able to do good work clinically, but then there’s this whole part of themselves that they are leaving out. You just said when you started the podcast, you became more authentic in your work because now you’re bringing in this part of you. I wrote an e-course that was my 2020 pandemic project over the summer. 

Carrie: We all had one. 

Ann: Yes, I put out the E-course and then I thought, you know what? People need an easy on-ramp to find out just to get their toes in the water with this idea about integration. My podcast is for people who do this kind of work like you and I do, but also for people who are just interested in mental health and they want to know, “Is this okay that I’m a Christian and I want to do this therapy thing?”

I’ve done different special episodes on things like brain spotting or transcranial magnetic stimulation or different things where I want to get a Christian perspective on all those clinical things that are out there so I can understand more. I can get the help I need and I can pass on this information to other people that I see in my world or in my church that are needing the help as well.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think there’s a really, a lack of conversation surrounding these things, which is one of the reasons that I started my podcast too. I had a blog for like a hot second and I realized writing’s a lot of work.

Ann: Yes, same .

Carrie: It’s easier for me to talk, so I decided, maybe podcasting route because it was a lot of work to try to get all these blog posts up there, and then I was like, is anybody rating this thing? But I think this is great. I’ve really definitely looked for a lot of resources and people who are bringing to the table really solid clinical skills and good Christian counseling.

I hope that people will check out your podcast, Soul Grit, and you’ve had a wide variety of episodes on there, different topics. It’s awesome. 

Ann: Yes, Carrie’s going to be on the podcast too. 

Carrie: Woohoo! Towards the end of every episode, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time of hope that you have from God or another person.

Ann: God has done a lot of amazing things like actual miracles in our family story. I’ll just share where I am right now. I actually had a stroke two months ago and that was very unexpected cuz I’m only 40. I exercise most days. I eat healthy. I don’t have diabetes. I don’t smoke or drink.

I don’t have any risk factors, and all of a sudden I found myself in the hospital having suffered a stroke just in November. I didn’t know what that meant or what my life would look like, and it turns out it could have been a lot worse. I have all of my faculties available. I can walk, I can talk, I can think I can do cognitive tasks.

In the meantime, God had to remove me from a lot of the things as a professional mom, wife, all the roles in ministry. December could be like, this is the big time, right? , the week before December started this past year. God just said, no, actually your job is to lay on the couch. And I thought, but God, I’m the mom and I’m the podcaster and I’m the therapist and I lead a small group and I have to do holidays for my family and all those things.

God just made me rest and taking me through right now a journey of figuring out what is really important. And what is foundational? Do I have big ideas and big [00:18:00] goals for my practice or my e-course or my podcast or my other things that do in ministry or family, whatever. But come down to take care of yourself, rest, read the Bible, and spend time with the Lord. Be there with your family, work on your marriage, eat the right food. It’s come down to just very foundational basic things, and I’ll say, this is why, this is my story of hope because right now I don’t see what the result of that is gonna be, but I really have this sense that God has me in this place of the lane, a solid foundation.

Not that I wasn’t solid in my belief in God, or that I didn’t have a good marriage or anything before. But it’s like he’s laying this new layer of foundation that I need for whatever that launch is in the next season of life, and I have no idea what that might look like, but I have hope that if he’s asking me to slow down and rest right now and take care of these things, that means he has something for me then that’s gonna be worth it when I follow him in an obedience to that.

Carrie: Yes. It’s so hard for us in our cultural context to slow down and to rest, but it’s definitely so needed and so important, so I’m glad that God’s working with you on that. Have you kind of had a lot of reflections on just the sense of Sabbath in the Bible and what that really means to rest?

Ann: What’s really funny is in October I did a whole series on rest and ceasing from busyness and Sabbath. That was what the whole, the podcast in the fall was about. Then I had just moved into a new series that I was doing about the body and what God has to say about the body and how our body impacts our mental health and things like that.

It was almost like God said, “Well, you’re doing good work. I see the work that you’re doing, but I’m going to make this really real for you in short order. 

Carrie: Yes, He did. It’s like when the pastor has to preach the sermon to themselves before they give it to the congregation. That’s what they say. They’re like, I had to learn this for myself. Awesome. Tell us where people can find you and we’ll put links in the show notes too. 

Ann: My website is soulgritresources.com, and that’s where you can find the e-course. You can get links to the podcast, the blog that I used to write and for your listeners, I’m assuming a lot of people that listen to your podcast are interested in things like those evidence-based practices.

I have a freebie that pops up. It’s called Cognitive Behavior Therapy with scripture, and I’ll walk you through how to use the scripture to replace those thoughts that you’re needing some help with once you identify them, so they can find that there. I’m also on Instagram at Soul Grit Resources. 

Carrie: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today. 

Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Carrie and her husband Steve are excited to bring you a bonus episode on EMDR Intensive Therapy. 

  • What is EMDR Intensive Therapy and what are the issues it can help with?
  • What happens in an EMDR Intensive Therapy session?  
  • How long does the session usually last?
  • How to receive EMDR Intensive Therapy?

If you want to find out more about intensive therapy, go to https://www.bythewellcounseling.com/intensivetherapy/

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to a very special episode of Hope for Anxiety and OCD. This is a bonus episode that I wanted to get out to you earlier than putting it kind of in the lineup. Since we have several episodes that are already planned out for the next couple of months. And I have my amazing husband, Steve here with me. Say Hi Steve.

Steve: Hey

Carrie: Glad to have you here. You interviewed me once before on the show for episode 33 of What it’s like to be a Counselor. And I thought it would be good for you to interview me on our today’s topic, which is EMDR intensive therapy. Since it’s something that you’re not familiar with. When I get in the zone and tend to talk about therapy things, I don’t tend to always explain them for the lay audience to understand and break it down very well. So I thought it would be good. And you can ask little filler questions here and there that people might be wondering about, or you might be wondering about.

What is EMDR Intensive Therapy

Steve: Okay. My first question is what is an EMDR intensive therapy session?

Carrie: This is a session that is longer than a typical therapy session. It occurs either for a half day of three hours or a whole day, which is six hours with a lunch break and some small breaks in between it’s for a very specific purpose.

So someone that’s trying to achieve a very specific counseling. It may be that they know, for example, that they’ve experienced some sexual abuse that is getting in the way of their relationship with their spouse. Now it may be a situation where they’re trying to overcome a phobia or a situation where maybe they just know they have a lot of trauma.

They’re going to need to process in a sense, kinda wanna get a kickstart to that process. Another way we use an intensive therapy session for say anxiety or even possibly OCD is to work on some day-to-day level coping skills that people could use as maybe a baseline for them. So it doesn’t have to be used to process trauma.

The idea behind it is to have dedicated time and dedicated space to work on a very specific issue.

Steve: A long therapy session that seems like it might be kind of exhausting.

Carrie: It can be tiring, but it just depends on how you break up the day. Usually what we’ll do is we’ll have kind of a introductory period.

So to explain a little bit deeper, these are situations where I may have been working with someone for. Session a few sessions and they make a decision to do an intensive, or it could be that somebody wants to travel in from out of state and do even multiple days with me, which I would just have to make sure that I had all of the office space available during those days and times.

If people are traveling in and I haven’t met them before the structure, obviously of the day is gonna be a little bit different because there’s going to be a chunk where we’ll have to do a little bit of more history taking kind of getting a clear picture of the problem. Then we can go in and make an EMDR treatment plan.

Basically identifying what memories we need to target that are contributing to their present-day issues. When we go back and we reprocess those memories. In EMDR, we look at the past and then we look at how that’s affecting and present, and then how that person would like to respond in the future.

Typically, with a more condensed intensive session, we would probably process the worst memory that came up on that treatment plan. And the first memory that came up on that treatment plan, sometimes those end up being the same memory. If it’s a more recent traumatic event, we would structure it so that we would really just be focused on that recent traumatic event.

There’s restricted protocols with EMDR to help you process more like within the past month type of trauma. If we were able to get someone in that quickly, So there’s lots of different ways that we can structure it with, uh, phobia, for example, we can structure, you know, starting with, when did the phobia first occur process?

You know, usually like if, if somebody was bit by a dog, for example, when they were a child, they’re afraid of dogs, now we could go back and we could target that memory where they bit by the dog. Then we can look at potentially exposures and desensitizing the present triggers. So we could show them a picture of a dog.

How to stressing is that to you do some EMDR surrounding that as a present issue, we could, you know, show them a video of a dog. There’s different things that we could kind of target. I probably wouldn’t have a live dog, but, you know, I would encourage at some point or another, eventually, them working up to that process as kind of gradual exposure.

It’s kind of a little bit hard to get a live dog in a counseling office sometimes, but you understand where I’m coming from. There’s so many different ways that we can approach things depending on what the person’s presenting issue is. For example, panic attacks. If someone had a history of panic attacks that they would like to focus on resolving, we can often process their first panic attack and their worst panic attack, their most recent get that done in one day. And that will show significant symptom relief for them, preventing them from having future panic attacks.

Steve: Why did you decide to start offering intensive therapy?

Carrie: That’s a really great question. I was actually encouraged by two of my mentors. One of them was Laura Mullis who we had on the show on episode 21, Healing from Childhood Wounds: The key to Unlocking Anxiety. Laura, as well as one of my other EMDR mentors, Alice Strickland had really asked me, first of all, was I doing intensive therapy? And then if I wasn’t interested in doing it because sometimes they have cases they may not be able to take on or might not be the best fit for them that they may want to refer to me. So that was part of it. And the other reason was after doing a few with my clients, kind of during the COVID period online, I did some three-hour sessions with clients where we took kind of a 15-minute break in the middle to target very specific EMDR memories that they wanted to work on.

There’s a few problems that can come up, like in terms of weekly therapy, someone comes in and they may really wanna work through certain issues in their life. But then as we know, like life just happens, you know, then they come in next week and something’s happened with one of their kids or their coworker was really mean to them. Or, you know, somebody went off on them as they were driving their car. I don’t know. And they just feel like, okay, I need to really process what was going on in the present.

A lot of times we can tie that back into how that was a trauma trigger and sometimes work through some of those things. And that can be very helpful. Oftentimes, what I see is that we end up delaying the EMDR treatment process because a lot of times we’re having to go back and forth between working on these present issues and then working on past issues.

If we can devote specific time to working on the past issues. A lot of the present issues will be resolved because they won’t continuously be getting triggered by the same stuff over and over again, in these challenging relationships or situations. So much of therapy too is spent on helping people develop skills to manage their day-to-day present.

And like I said, if we can go back and just kind of clear out some of the junk, there will be less that they have to manage in the present, not to say that they won’t have anything. Going on, but at least it’ll get the symptoms maybe more to a manageable level. Once the trauma is resolved. So it’s really a combination of a couple of different things.

Sometimes another issue that we have in terms of processing memories with EMDR is that we will take some time at the beginning of the session to get the client into the memory to say, okay, now, as you bring up that memory right now, how distressing is it? Where do you feel it in your body? Even before we do that, the client will come in. They’ll say, “Well, you know, I had, after last session I had a nightmare” or they may be updating me on symptoms. Either of the symptom got better or symptoms got worse. That’s helpful for me to kind of know and guide the process as to where we need to go to next. That takes a little bit of a chunk of time, say that takes 10 to 15 minutes. And then at the end of the session, we really wanna make sure that people have time to calm down that they have time to contain, especially if they didn’t finish processing the memory. So then we’re taking another, you know, let’s say 10 minutes to say, “okay, like, you know, kind of ground, put your feet on the floor, take a deep breath, contain the memory.”

No, it doesn’t have to leave you here. When you walk out the door today, go to your safe place, whatever. There’s a lot of different ways we can do that. But the point is, is that we’re taking that chunk of time in the beginning of the session. And we’re taking that chunk of time at the end of the session, whereas in an intensive, you don’t have to do that because you’re not having those times in between sessions.

You’re actually saving time and energy and not interrupt that trauma work because the brain doesn’t know, “oh, wow. I only have about, you know, 30 minutes to work through this.” Your brain doesn’t know that. So it’s gonna kind of continue to be working on things even after that session is over, which can sometimes be distressing for people.

What are the Issues EMDR Intensive Therapy Can Help with?

Steve: Okay. What are some of the issues that you’ve seen be helped by intensive therapy.

Carrie: I talked about some of them previously, things like phobias, panic attacks, very specific recent trauma, definitely anything that we would consider to be a single incident trauma, not like, you know, I’ve had a whole lifetime of childhood, but Hey, my childhood was pretty stable and things were going well.

And then this thing kind of just completely shifted me off track, near-death experience or illness, injury, car accident, things like that. I know that you and I had talked about, even my experience in episode 10 of really building up the confidence again, to be able to go out dating after my divorce, I had had quite a bit of therapy and there were just kind of some lingering remaining things that I needed to process through. And I really needed to do that from a somatic body sense, rather than just talking about it because I had already talked nausea about it. So that’s another area. Theoretically, I could have done an intensive on for myself. I didn’t, but I went at probably 10 sessions had I had an intensive opportunity.

I might have been able to get that, that work done and say probably two days, you know, instead of 10 sessions over, I was probably going every other week. So you think about that if you’re going every other week to therapy too, that’s about say five months that it took me to get through that process. I know.

A lot of times, people are very interested in today’s day and age of getting better, and faster. We have such a microwave generation. This can be good and bad. Sometimes these situations work and you can find relief faster. It’s not for every person or every situation, but as you can see, there are lots of different ways that we can apply the intensive therapy model to help people get relief. Another example would be for someone who’s having difficulties setting boundaries. Oftentimes this relates back to either like very strong authoritative personalities in their childhood or just people were straight up abusive and crossed their boundaries.

So if we can go back to those places, help them process through that realize like, you know, you’re not a child in this dynamic anymore. This is an adult-to-adult dynamic. You have a right, like your needs are important, whereas they weren’t important. Then your values and your desires are important. And you have that takes a certain level of self-confidence to set a boundary, right. To be firm with. So that is something that we could target in an intensive, really like creating a treatment plan surrounding the difficulty with setting boundaries. A lot of times I see people who have emotional trauma that is feeding into disordered type eating, even though I don’t work with eating disorders.

So I kind of wanna make that clarification if you have serious eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia that I’m not saying that this type of intensive therapy is for you, but for people who, for example, would say, “Hey, I’m an emotional eater. I really want to eat healthy. I’m trying, I may have been on every diet under the sun. But just the way that I grew up, there was a lot of shame surrounding food, or there was even abuse situations involving food resolving.” Some of that trauma will shift the way that people approach food in the present. That’s one, depending on how much is back there, they may need a little bit more than one day. It just kind of depends. And we have to create a plan together. I think that’s, what’s really important. Intensives is having a very specific plan and intention that the client and I are both on the same page about what they’re wanting to accomplish so that there’s no confusion and that we stay very focused and targeted for that limited amount of time.

Steve: So who would not be appropriate for intensive therapy?

Carrie: If someone has a serious problem where they may need a higher level of treatment, such as a serious addiction, addictions are typically not something that I worked with. I’ve worked with a lot of people who had an addiction in their past, say a few years ago, and they’re trying to resolve the trauma that led to the initial addiction.

I do work with several clients that have experienced that, but we really want people who are clean and sober to be engaging in this work. I mentioned eating disorders. If somebody has a really serious eating disorder and where they need to be in some kind of hospital or treatment program, if someone finds that they’re dissociating a lot, they’re disconnecting from reality due to their trauma.

They’re losing a lot of periods of time or they don’t have any connection to their body or their emotional experience. Now I will say that if there’s a client that’s really having difficulty connecting to their body or to their emotional experience if they wanted to do an intensive, what we would really focus on is not processing the trauma, but we would more focus on developing that body awareness, developing that emotional awareness. Doing a lot of what we would call resourcing activities, which would be trauma preparation that may be incredibly valuable for that person to do that, and may help them really cope better in the present with that. But I wouldn’t say that they need to come in and, and just start processing trauma because they’re not gonna be able to do that.

You really have to be connected to your mind, your body and your emotions in order to benefit from EMDR, having. I’ve worked with a ton of clients that don’t have all of those things online. And so our first step in therapy is really building those up before they can go through and process trauma. If somebody has a personality disorder or something just very serious going on, then they’re probably not appropriate for intensive therapy.

Steve: And my last question is, are these covered by insurance?

Carrie: They are not. We don’t have a code for this type of intensive therapy session that we could code for insurance. I actually even asked Cigna the insurance that I work with and they, you know, I’m sure if we were sitting face to face, the lady would’ve looked at me, like I had four eyes.

I was trying to explain it to her, but she was just kind of like, “No.” They are used to typical things like individual therapy, group therapy and things that there are codes for. This is not something we can code and charge insurance for. It’s really more for someone who is looking to make an investment in their mental health and they, they know kind of what they want.

And they realize that this pathway is going to save them, you know, time, energy, and money. It’s hard for people to. Sometimes to coming to weekly therapy, they may get started with it, or they may start coming every other week and then childcare becomes a problem or work is adding on more responsibilities.

I can’t get off in time. There’s all kinds of barriers that can happen in terms of people getting the therapy that they need on a consistent ongoing basis. Sometimes there’s certain time limited situations where someone will say. I know I’m going to be moving or going out of the country. And I know this is some, or I’m getting married.

This is just something that I know I wanna resolve before. Maybe a major life event happens as well. And so these people are kinda willing to take that leap and invest in this process. And so also just really great for people who have had a lot of therapy, haven’t been able to get their goals achieved that they wanted to, but feel like this would be something that would help them just as a different approach.

Thank you, Steve, for helping me out by asking some of these questions and allowing me to explain intensive EMDR therapy.

Steve: Yeah. You’re welcome. And glad to be here once again. And it’s actually really good for me to hear that I got to learn something, so it’s good.

How to Receive EMDR Intensive Therapy

Carrie: Yeah. And if people would like to find out more about intensive therapy, they can go to www.bythewellcounseling.com./intensive therapy. If you get to the homepage By the Well Counseling, there’s also a button that you can click on for intensive therapy. There’s a form on the webpage that I’ll ask that you fill out in order to be able to, for us to have a, hopefully, a short video chat, where we can have a consultation, where we can talk about what you’re hoping to get out of the intensive, and I can share whether or not I think that that would be appropriate for you.

It’s really important that we’re able to make sure that you’re gonna be getting what you need from this modality if you’re investing the time and money in it. So I want to take a little time to make sure that that you’re appropriate and that this is appropriate for you kind of, as we talk through some of those things.

One thing that I’m really excited about with this intensive therapy opportunity is that I get a lot of inquiries from the people who listen to the podcast and they say, “Hey, I know that you do online therapy. Can you see me?” But they live out of State. They may live in Kentucky or Connecticut or wherever, and I can’t see them online due to licensure laws and limitations. I’m only licensed in Tennessee right now to see people there. So this will allow people to be able to travel if that’s something that they’re interested in and receive therapy from me. So that was kind of another contribution of why I wanted to do this, that I didn’t mention. Earlier, thank you so much to everyone who is listening to this podcast right now, I will tell you the very first people who heard about the intensive opportunity were our email subscribers.

And Steve, why should you get on our email list for the hope for anxiety and OCD podcast?

Steve: We’re giving away. T-shirts

Carrie: Yeah, Steve, it was actually your idea to start giving away t-shirts to encourage people to subscribe to the podcast newsletter. So since we have currently, as we’re recording 73 email subscribers, I want you to help me pick our first t-shirt winner by people who’ve already subscribed to the newsletter.

So pick a number between 1 and 70.

Steve: I’m gonna go with 14. It looks like Lisa D is our winner. Congratulations, Lisa!

Carrie: She is our 14th email subscriber. I will be emailing Lisa to let her know that she has won a t-shirt and once I get her size and address back, we will go ahead and ship that out.

You also get to pick which color shirt that you want. And if you are not a t-shirt winner this time, because you are not subscribed to our email list, then hop on the email list. We don’t have that far to get from 73 to a hundred. Right Steve?

Steve: That’s right.

Carrie: So once we get to a hundred, I will be giving out another t-shirt for somebody in between the 50 and 100 mark and maybe about every 50 subscribers or so we will give away a t-shirt.

I would love to have 500 subscribers on the email list. That would be amazing. So it’s a great way for you to know firsthand what’s going on with me and what’s going on with the Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast. You can subscribe by going to our website, hopeforanxietyandocd.com. You are certainly welcome to go through our website and buy one, If you are really itching for some podcast merchandise. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. And I hope to hear from some of you soon.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

69. Let’s Talk About Hoarding with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 69. Let’s Talk About Hoarding with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Join me in a solo episode as I talk about hoarding!

  • Hoarding as an OCD spectrum disorder
  • What causes a person to hoard things?
  • Criteria for hoarding disorder
  • How is hoarding related to trauma and grief?
  • Christian perspective on hoarding
  • Helpful tips to overcome hoarding

Related links and resources:

Book: Buried in Treasure

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders

Episode 49. Will Less Stuff Equal Less Anxiety? with Becca Ehrlich

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 69. If you are new to the show, my name is Carrie Bock. I’m a licensed professional counselor in the state of Tennessee, and our show is all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and other.

Today’s show is about learning to let go. And it’s for help for people who are struggling with hoarding. And I wanted to say a little bit upfront to give credit to where credit is. Some of this information is taken that I’m gonna share with you from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders also known for short as the DSM, as well as the Book buried in Treasures by David Tolin, Randy O. Frost, Gail Steketee. I hope I pronounce that last name specifically correctly. They have done a great job putting together research and provide practical advice in their book.

And then some of the material I’m going to share today is just based on my own personal experience of working with clients who have struggled with hoarding, I’ve made up various examples. They are not true clients examples, but they’re based on variations of things that I actually have.

Why in the world are we talking about hoarding on a show for Anxiety and OCD? Well, we are talking about hoarding because courting is an OCD spectrum disorder in the DSM five.
So there is a section on OCD followed by hoarding. Hair-pulling skin picking. So there’s a spectrum of some different things that are classified under OCD that the DSM is what counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists use to diagnose people. So there’s various criteria in there for those of you who aren’t familiar with the DSM, I should not just assume that you know what that is and I apologize.

A lot of people don’t realize that hoarding is part of the OCD spectrum of disorders. So let’s look at what are the actual criteria for being diagnosed with hoarding. There’s a persistent difficulty discarding or parting with possessions, regardless of their actual value. We all know someone who collects various things.

And some of those click tools may be really worth something a person hoarding things that are really valuable in their possessions that they could sell for money, but they also may be holding on to things that actually don’t have any value. It could be junk mail, recycling things, maybe that once had value, but have worn down and are no longer good. Or they’ve been sitting in an attic somewhere where they’ve overheated and deteriorate.

The difficulty getting rid of items is due to a perceived need to save the items in distress associated with discarding them. So there’s a need to say the item and we’re trying to not be in distress because when we try to get rid of things, there’s a level of emotional or psychological distress that comes with it.

The difficulty discarding, possessions results and accumulation of possessions that congest and clutter active living areas and substantially compromised their intended use. That’s the third criteria in the DSM. So for example, if you have a guest bathroom, but it’s so full of extra toilet paper, paper towels, and laundry detergent that you extreme coupon found on sale that you can’t actually get in that shower.

That guest bathroom, or maybe there’s a kitchen that’s so cluttered that you can’t actually get in there and cook anything in that. The fourth criteria is that it inhibits functioning often, socially, for example, people who struggle with hoarding may not be able to invite anybody over. They may isolate themselves from other people due to their hoarding disorder.
And there is also a potential to add on what is called a modifier to the diagnosis, which is an excessive acquisition, meaning that they keep acquiring items, keep bringing them into the.

So let’s talk about how common is hoarding. Hoarding affects actually two to 6% of the population, according to the DSM, over 15 million people in the US. That’s a pretty high number and it’s actually a small percentage of people that struggle seek help. Usually, there are other people trying to seek help on their behalf. They see this behavior as a problem, and the people that do seek help may have some kind of external pressure on them to get better. So maybe their spouse is really upset is cause causing some intense conflict in the mirror.

Maybe they’re single and they want to have a relationship, but they feel like, okay, I can’t even invite anybody over. So I don’t feel like I can date successfully. Maybe they just want to be more socially connected in examples, such as retirement, maybe someone is trying to downsize and move from a full, you know, three bedroom house to a smaller town home, something of that nature, and they’re having trouble and they might kind of seek help for this issue. Or they may have. Some kind of government, external pressure, maybe the codes department has been called on them. Someone’s complained about, you know, rubbish in the yard. Maybe social services has gotten involved either our children and someone’s come in and said, Hey, you’ve really got to clean this area up.

Those people don’t necessarily want to seek help on their own, but they’re kind of backed into a corner and have to, or otherwise they’re not going to be able to get what they want. Hoarding typically runs in families. And about half of the people who struggle report also having a relative who hoards as well.
So whenever we’re looking at things that run in families, it’s kind of hard to tease out. Is that because there are some genetic components, is that because this is a learned behavior. If we’re seeing other people do something, obviously where you may have a tendency to pick up on. It’s quite possible that the individual grew up in a family where there were certain messages surrounding items that they internalize and then therefore are living out in their adult life.

Maybe some examples are that item was a gift. You can’t give that away. Somebody really thought of you and they gave you that item. You got a hold on. Or, you know, you need to hold onto this item because you might actually need that some day. Yeah. You’re not using it right now, but it may really come in handy later. We have to catch that sale. We’ve got to buy things, even if we don’t need them quite yet while they’re on sale. So how does. This hoarding develop will. It seems like there are some genetic and temperamental components and that’s where the authors of the buried in treasures did some research. They put people in MRI machines and they were having them make decisions while they were actively looking at the areas of their brain that were over-activated or under activated.

It’s actually really interesting. And I encourage you to go get the book and read on that. If you struggle with hoarding or if you know someone who struggles, there’s also a lot of advice in the book for family members and how to approach your loved one as well. So that may be beneficial if you’re listening on behalf of a loved one, who’s struggling.
What they found through this study was that there were different levels of activity and key parts of the brain between the person struggling with hoarding and the person in the typical population. They had a harder time categorizing their own stuff, but it didn’t interfere with them categorizing other people’s.

So seeing certain things as special kind of can be a common issue. And so then if it’s special, it kind of gets its own category. And we can’t put things together. In other categories, there are some common struggles and overlap that it’s seen in people who struggle with hoarding in terms of difficulty with attention, making decisions.

There you tend to be more creative because they look at items and think, oh, well, we could use it this way. Or I could use that to do this, that somebody else may not necessarily see the value in something. There may be a tendency to want to do everything perfectly like struggling with perfectionism and a tendency to procrastinate, to put things off, you know?
Okay. I really do want to organize this. I feel like it’s gotta be perfect. So then I put it off because I can’t do it. You know, it’s overwhelming. Maybe someone has, for example, a train collection and they want to sell this train collection, but first they have to organize the train collection maybe by type of year, the year that it came out.

And then I have to figure out how am I going to sell them. Am I going to put them in a yard sale? Well, no, that maybe seems a lot of work to label everything. And then who wants to do a yard? So with only trains, well, I could put them on Facebook marketplace, but then I have to take these pictures and figure out how do I list that? And if I listed on marketplace then I have to meet up with somebody and where am I going to meet up with them? And if I post it on another website to sell it online, you know, I’ve got to take these pictures and figure out how I’m going to get payment. The Venmo app, you know, what do I do?

I use PayPal and then there’s a sense of exhaustion and just feeling defeated like, oh, this feels like it’s going to be too much work to make this happen and ended up in decision overload.

We ended up in decision overload. What happens? We just have this tendency to shut down and not do it. Another issue is the sense of feeling sentimental attachment. Now we’ve all had some level of this, right? We have an item. It’s not necessarily worth anything to anyone else, but to us, it’s tied to a memory or a specific time in our life.

And we think, “Okay, I don’t want to let that go because the attachment to this object reminds me of positive things where it reminds me of an important person in my life.” Maybe it was something that they gave me or something that we did together. One thing I’ve noticed in my work with people who struggle with hoarding is that they have a tendency to view their better days as being in the past. So they have these items that allow them to reminisce about the past, where the better days were, for example, if an individual used to surf, let’s say they lived by the ocean. Now, maybe they don’t live by the ocean or they don’t go surfing anymore. Maybe they’ve had an injury where they can no longer.

But yet they have a collection of surfing supplies and you know, they’ve got the surfboard, they’ve got the wax that goes on the board. Other things that I don’t even know about surfing, but they have the wetsuits, everything that goes with surfing. They’ve got a whole collection of stuff yet. They’re not using it.

They’re not going to use it because they don’t surf. But when I look at that, I think, man, wasn’t that really great when I could get out in the water. Feeling the wind on my face and being catching a wave. It’s awesome. So that’s maybe just one example of how someone might hold on to items to really reminisce about good things that they experienced, even though they don’t need the items or they’re not using the.
We’ll talk about a little bit later in terms of healing from that people may hoard and hold onto things because it’s a part of their identity. They may view themselves as a collector like, oh, this is a collector’s item. I have all of these collector or board games from years and years ago that I want to hold on to probably are worth something.

I maybe a person holds on to craft supplies because they want to view themselves as an artist or painting supplies, even though they don’t paint, but they would like to be able to do some of those things. I know that for myself having been a foster parent, I had a lot of kid items around the house and it was hard to get rid of some of those things because being a foster parent obviously had been my identity for that time period.

And I didn’t know really what the future held for me. You know, maybe I would marry someone with kids and what if I needed some of these items? It was a process that I had to go through to realize, you know, I’m not living that life anymore. That’s not my identity. So I don’t need to hold on to things tied to that identity.

People may also struggle because they get a high from acquiring possessions. Oh. I saw a great sale at the thrift store. I got these pants for half off and I got this item and look, it was only a dollar. I went to this yard sale and isn’t this awesome. And they may buy stuff that they don’t need just because they feel like it’s a good price.
And then there’s this like elevation of self-worth and value that they feel of being able to find this good deal. Now I mentioned the book buried in treasure. This book is a CBT-based book. So it was based on cognitive behavioral therapy. And that’s the approach that they take to overcoming hoarding.

It’s very good material. And one thing that that approach hasn’t addressed really that I’ve seen is this tendency of something that I’ve noticed connected to hoarding and. The unresolved and at times traumatic grief and a loss that seems to come with it, this attachment to items that are tangible way of keeping a connection between the person and something or someone that they have lost.

It’s not always a loved one. When we talk about grief and loss. But it can be, it can be a situation where they’ve lost a loved one. A spouse has died and they feel like they just can’t get rid of their stuff. They’ve got to hold onto it because somehow that is connected to the memory of that person. And if they let it go.

They feel like I’m going to lose that person all over again. It also, the loss can be connected to things that they used to be doing, but aren’t doing anymore. So I gave the example of like being a foster parent in my own life. Other people, they may have been a Sunday school teacher when they were younger.

They may have coloring pages. They may have flannel graphs for anyone who remembers those things. Who are you? You stick the picture on the flannel. Nobody even uses that anymore, but someone might be holding onto it going, oh, that was such a good time. Like when I was a Sunday school teacher and pouring into the little kids and wasn’t that fun and awesome.

So really going through and grieving those losses. We’ll talk about this later is an important part of the healing process. Because if you don’t grieve those losses that are connected to these items, you’re not going to be able to get rid of the items. I remember another personal example for myself, of some things that I’ve struggled with getting rid of.

I had an entire room of play therapy tools. At my old office, this is now two offices ago. I had a specific room dedicated to seeing children and made a decision at that point in my practice that I didn’t want to work as many evenings. I wanted to kind of prepare for hopefully my own family life. At some point wanted to have more work-life balance.

I wasn’t seeing a whole lot of kids and it didn’t make sense to have this entire room full of. However, it was hard to let go of those things because I had acquired them over time. Over years of working with children, probably I don’t know, five to seven years. And that was hard for me to say, I’m no longer a play therapist.

I’m no longer doing this type of work. And what if I regret this decision? I, I get rid of all this stuff and then decide, I want to work with kids. Yeah, of course, that is a possibility, but that didn’t happen to me. I’m actually very happy and pleased with that decision. And I sold those toys to a friend who was going to do more types of play therapy, expressive therapy, and hopefully got some good use out of those.

Now that I’ve given you an overview, talk through some examples. I want to talk about the. Things that can be done to help. If you recognize that this is a problem within yourself, what are some things that can be done to learn, to let go of items, to not have to continue dealing with wording anymore?

Number one is recognize that this is a problem that you need help with. That is really hard for any issue that we’re facing to admit that we need help with something. As we talked about before, oftentimes. People who are struggling with hoarding either. Don’t recognize that they need the help, or they recognize that they have a bit of a problem, but they think they can manage it on their own.

Now you’re going to need different types of help and support. You’re going to need some professional support. Hopefully, you can find someone in your community or online, a therapist who has worked with hoarding in the past to give you that professional support and perspective, you’re going to need some personal support, not people who are going to come in and be overbearing or rushy to get rid of stuff but are going to come alongside with you and work with you at your own pace.
These are going to be people maybe that can help you bring some stuff to give away, to, to donate. Maybe they can help you move some furniture out of your house. Or they can just provide that encouragement in moral support of just saying, you know, I know this is really hard for you, but I’m so proud of you that you are tackling this issue in your life.
That goes a long way. Oftentimes we underestimate the power of personal support for someone who is struggling with a mental health issues. And we don’t need to underestimate that because it’s very valuable. Now you may need. Medical help. Um, you may need to look at medication as an option, especially if you have co-occurring disorders, something like ADHD, that’s getting in the way, anxiety, depression, then, you know, you may look at medication as an option to treat some of those things so that you can go through the behaviors and really tackle especially if you are working at this from a cognitive behavioral standpoint and you’re having trouble making progress, I always encourage people who don’t want to take medication to really, okay. We’ll try therapy, those tools, the self-help things for a little while. And then if you’re not making progress, maybe we’ll circle back around and evaluate whether medication might be an option at that point.

Step two, you’re going to have to commit time and I’m talking to them. Every day or at least five days a week to commit to the process of recovery, to commit to the process of cleaning up your space. Obviously, it didn’t get that way overnight and it’s not going to be cured overnight. You’re not just going to have an extreme home makeover most likely now.
The book. And then I talked about recommends really building up, I believe from maybe 15 minutes a day to eventually getting to a point where you’re working on this an hour a day to really make tangible progress, three, develop a positive view of the future. We talked about how people who struggle with hoarding can be very past-oriented.

The good times are behind me reminiscing. Wasn’t that awesome when we did this or that. So I really want to encourage you for a Christian standpoint to visualize yourself, blessing people with the items that you have and finding joy. In giving, because there really is a joy that comes from giving to others that would be beneficial for you to tap into and it’ll help ease the pain of getting rid of certain items.

I know that that’s been my experience in terms of getting things, when I was able to bless someone else with it, it was a lot easier to let those things go. Another way you can develop a positive view of the future is to really visualize what is it going to be like to have this life that you want, where you’re inviting friends and family into your living room.

Just really picture that in your mind there’s nothing on the couch, other than people actually sitting there and maybe a couple of throw pillows. Visualize that empty space, maybe where you have boxes right now, visualize your bank account, having more money because you’re not spending a bunch of money, accumulating things you don’t need at yard.

So thrift stores or on Amazon visualize your life without horses. Playing with your grandchildren more often finding a spouse, focusing on one hobby, instead of trying to focus on the things that you can’t do anymore, telling yourself that the better days are ahead of you and not all your good memories are going to be found in the past anymore because you’re going to be creating new, positive memories in the future.

And that’s going to be really awesome.

Step four. Figure out how to stop acquiring new items. There’s time dedicated in the buried in treasures book that helps with this as well. But if you don’t stop acquiring new items, then you’re fighting this losing battle, right? Because if you get rid of a bunch of stuff in your house, and then you go to the yard sale and you buy 20 more things, then you’re just going in circles.

You may have to stop going to the places that you acquire stuff temporarily. So let’s say that you are a shopaholic related to like Ross, TJ Maxx, some of those discount stores. Maybe you need to stay away from those places for a while, until you’re able to get some of the tools under your belt to be able to go in there and not acquire.

You may have to set up a rule for yourself if you’re an online shopper and you’re always having things mailed to you through Amazon or some of those other stores. You may set a rule for yourself where you say, okay, I am not going to buy anything until it sits in my cart for at least 24 hours.

And then I’ll reevaluate whether or not I actually really need that. If you put this into play in your life, I’ve actually had some clients that have tried this that just felt like they were shopaholics, not even necessarily hoarders. So they felt like they were spending too much money on Amazon on things that they didn’t need.

And I said, okay, well set a rule for yourself that it’s got to stay in your cart overnight, or it’s got to stay in your cart for 24 hours so that you’re not impulse purchase. Step five is to do the intellectual work. This is the cognitive part of the work, finding the belief systems that are holding you back.

What are the thoughts that are keeping you stuck? So it may be something like, I need this. We tell ourselves that we need things all the time when we actually don’t need them. They’re often a want the things that we tell ourselves that we need. The IMEI use this someday. If you haven’t used it in the last three years, you’re probably not going to use it in the next three years.

Some people have appliances for every kind of function in the kitchen when they don’t use them, they may use one or two appliances and have 10. I remember getting rid of some round cake pans awhile back because I realized, well, I used to do a lot of baking. I enjoyed it. It was a thing. And I thought, when was the last time I actually made a cake number one and there were two, if I do make a cake, I don’t tend to use the round pan because then you’ve got to stack to have the icing layer in the middle of like probably gonna use the rectangle pan and just make the cake that way. So I got rid of those and I don’t regret it in the slightest or miss them because I wasn’t using. Now the book has a lot of worksheets where you can ask yourself different questions to evaluate items of why you’re really holding on to them.

So if you want to dig in and do that work, you may have thoughts. Like, you know, this is a good deal, so I have to buy it or I can get some money out of it. So I have to sell it. This refers to things that you already own. Like, well, I can’t get rid of that yet. I’ve got to find a way to sell it. We talked about some of these things already, but to get rid of this item would disrespect the memory of my loved one or cause me to forget them in some way.
Or I can’t get rid of stuff until I can sort it out perfectly and put it into the right category. Realistically, you have to realize that whatever space you have, it can only hold so many items. Going back to the visualization. Let’s say you have 10 pictures, but you can only fit five in the room.

That means you have five to get rid of, because you can have a whole lot of especially decorations, decor type items that you don’t have the space to put up or show off. And it may be time to let those things go. Along with the intellectual work. Number six is you’ve got to be able to do the emotional work to either heal from the trauma or grieve the loss.

Some losses can be very traumatic to us, such as the loss of a loved one or pets. Now I have helped people process through things like watching their. Get hit by a car that is a very traumatic loss. It’s sudden it’s unexpected. There’s a tendency to blame yourself. And people may think, well, how in the world is that connected to hoarding or to holding onto things, but it can be when you are really sitting with a skilled counselor and you start to trace some of these things back, some of this tendency to hold on to things and the discomfort of letting it go.

Sometimes that’s where it goes back to. It could be a sense of a sudden move. Those can also be traumatic. Maybe you had to leave a place suddenly. Maybe you lost a bunch of items in a fire. I don’t know, but processing through that trauma can really be beneficial having a long-term illness or injury, a chronic health condition, an injury that has prevented you from doing other things.

There may be things that you’re not able to do that you used to be able to do. That’s a law. Then a lot of times we don’t acknowledge within ourselves and specifically within our society, that if you go through something like whether it’s cancer or whether it’s an auto-immune disorder and all of a sudden there are these limitations that you haven’t had before.
There is some grief and loss associated with that. You don’t have the energy that you used to have. You don’t have maybe the same supports that you used to have. There could be all different kinds of factors in there. Oftentimes when we’re talking about loss, there’s the big loss, right? Whether it’s the loss of the person and then there’s all the little loss that go along with it.

So for example, if I, worst case scenario lost my husband, Steve tomorrow, if he died in some way, then there would be all of these little things that Steve does and just kind of takes care of. It could be something as little as he feeds the cats in the morning and in the. Now every time I go to feed the cat, I’m thinking, oh, you know, Steve used to do that.
That’s a reminder, these bigger losses, there’s all these little things that can get wrapped up and connected into them. And if we don’t take time to really process that into cry and to journal and to grieve and to let go. Then we’re missing out on being able to work through that grief. Unfortunately, I don’t know how it is in a lot of other places, but in America, people rush through the grief process.

\They go from one thing and it’s like, tomorrow’s a new day and they just expect themselves to move on and not have any issues. Unfortunately, that’s not the way that we work, that our minds and emotions and body works. We need to be able to take time to process, to grieved, to elect. Number seven as with all forms of OCD.
Since this is an OCD spectrum disorder, a person with hoarding is going to have to learn to be able to sit with the discomfort that comes from letting go of items, because there is going to be some discomfort that. And the whole point of doing this work on the front end, the intellectual work, the emotional work, the spiritual work is to be able to get to a place where you can sit with discomfort, where it’s to a manageable level, that you can work through it so that it’s not a traumatic issue getting rid of. Because if someone just were to come in tomorrow and clean out your stuff and you struggle with hoarding, that would be traumatic for you. You wouldn’t want that to happen. However, you want to be able to pace yourself and go through this process so that you can get to a place we’re seeing.

You’re mindful in your space, how you’re feeling, what thoughts you’re having about getting rid of things. And then you can sit with the discomfort, work through it. So that it’s not as uncomfortable as it is initially looking at getting rid of an eye. Now, since this is a Christian podcast, I want to talk about this from a spiritual perspective.
For a moment, Jesus talks about storing up treasures in heaven, in not on the earth. There’s also a parable about a man who basically becomes rich, gathers a bunch of grain stores things, and then. Next thing, you know, he dies and none of it really matters that he had all these acquisition of items is because in the end, you know, he died and he had to give an

account for his soul at that.
We know that God doesn’t want us to have anything as an idol. That’s over him. You know, “you shall have no other gods before me or not have graven images.” And a lot of times we think that, oh, we don’t have idols like people have idols maybe in other places. But we all have idols in our lives that we have to confess and work through.
Whether that idol is stuff, money, relationship, it could be so many different things that people are putting above their relationship with God. And so understanding and confessing and recognizing that stuff can become an idol in your life. Even if you don’t want it to that, that’s something that can creep up on you.

And so addressing this from a spiritual perspective, really working through in prayer and confessing to God that just stuff has become out of control. And that you want to give that control back over to him, that you want to be able to release these items and allowing prayer to become a part of this process, I think would be helpful and important for you.

Prayer can be a process also in processing through the grief and losses. Like really telling God how you feel, what you think, why you feel like you have to hold onto this stuff. And as we’re praying, and as we’re processing through those things, God works on our heart, allows things to be a little bit easier and a little bit easier as you commit to that work, to letting it go really praying through what is a good time of the day.

Maybe for me to work on this, whether it’s in the morning, whether it’s in the evening, whether it’s right after you get off work, how are you going to do this?

Allowing this spiritual sense of godly accountability in your life can fastening to someone else that this is an issue. There’s so many ways that you could incorporate spirituality in terms of healing from hoarding disorder.
God does not want us to be ruled or owned by anything. And that includes our stuff. We did another episode a while back, if you have not heard it, I would encourage you to go back and listen to it. And that’s episode 49 on will. Less stuff, equal, less anxiety. That episode is a personal story about Christian minimalism. It’s a very good episode that has a lot of spiritual in it as well.

So I encourage you to listen to that one for more spiritual applications in terms of getting rid of. So if you’ve been listening to the show for a while, you know that at the end of every podcast, I like to share a story of hope, which is a time where someone received hope from God or another person.

And often I asked my guests that question, since this is a solo episode, I have to come up with stories of hope for you from my own life. And here’s one that came to me recently. I, if you’ve been following along with the podcast and myself and my own journey, My husband, Steve, you know, that we just had a beautiful little daughter named faith and she is fabulous.
We are so excited to have her in our lives and it’s been a really a long road to get to having faith. And so that’s how she got the name of faith, of course, because. There were so many things. I waited probably over 10 years to become a mother from the time that I started my foster care journey. So one day I’m holding my daughter and she’s asleep and looking absolutely adorable.

And it’s just really these beautiful times that we have for me to be able to pray over her and to thank God for her. And I was having this moment with my daughter that was just really beautiful and spiritual, and something happened where I started to really ponder God and being God, being all-knowing and God being sovereign.
In the world and I thought, okay. So God knew ahead of time that I was going to have this moment with my daughter. And I don’t mean like he knew ahead of time as in earlier in the day. I mean, God knew that I was gonna have this baby and be sitting here watching her sleeping feeling. Incredibly blessed.

God knew that 10 years ago when I lost my foster daughters and God knew that I was going to have this moment several years ago when my first husband wanted a divorce and walked out the door and wanted nothing else to do with me and all these painful moments of my life. I’m going to talk about my daughter’s birth story related to my pregnancy and in a future episode, but there were some complications that came up at the end, shall we say, where I had this higher chance of stillbirth. And of course, that’s very scary when a doctor tells you that. So here, I’m going through this crying and praying, like, don’t let me lose this baby. Now that I’ve gone through all of the. And in that moment, God knew I was going to have this beautiful moment where I’m thanking him because my daughter is here now.

So whatever you’re going through right now may be incredibly painful and you may not see anything good here. Or anything good coming out of it or anything? Beautiful arriving later because when I went through some of those painful experiences in my life, I didn’t see how they could be good on ever like on the other side and just really.
So angry or frustrated or sad with God and in how some of those situations turned out. But God had a plan. He knew what he was doing, and it’s so hard for us in the now to trust him. But that’s what I encourage you to do with whatever’s messy and uncomfortable and scary. In your life to really lean in and trust God to know that he wants to bless you with these beautiful moments. If you are serving him, if you are seeking to honor him, that he wants to make the beauty from the ashes and heal. You from this pain that you’re experiencing. And there is a beautiful and wonderful gift on the other side, at the end of our pain and suffering that we don’t see, we have no concept of at the time.

So that’s my story of hope for you today. I hope that that encourages you. I’m so glad that you decided to tune in today. If you are struggling with hoarding and you feel like you need additional professional support and you are in the state of Tennessee, I want to let you know that I plan to start a support group in the fall for people who are struggling with hoarding and really want to take action steps towards getting to a better place with this who want to do the intellectual, emotional work and want the accountability for putting the time and effort in.

So if that is something that you’re interested in, please contact me through my counseling website www.bythecounseling.com. I don’t have specific days and times for that group yet, but I will post information about it on my site and encourage you to contact me if you’re interested in being a part of that group, or if you’re interested in receiving individual therapy for hoarding.

I am back from maternity leave on June 1st and we’ll be taking on several more clients is since I’ve been off for a while. And if you’ve been looking to get into counseling summer is a great time because counselors often have more openings in the summer because people are on vacation and various things.

So if you need to go to counseling because you’re struggling with hoarding and OCD, spectrum issue, or any other mental health condition, don’t wait, go ahead and get that ball rolling.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.

Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling our original music is by Brandon Maingrum.

Until next time be comforted by God’s great love f

66. Somatic Experiencing Therapy with Amanda Huffman, LCSW

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 66. Somatic Experiencing Therapy with Amanda Huffman, LCSW

Amanda Huffman, a clinical social work/therapist who uses holistic, integrative, evidence-based, & cutting edge approaches in her practice.

Amanda talks about Somatic Experiencing therapy and how it can help people with anxiety and OCD. 

  • How long does it take to become a somatic experiencing therapist?
  • The theory behind somatic experiencing 
  • How somatic experiencing can help process trauma 
  • How is somatic experiencing different from other therapies?
  • Amanda’s view on somatic experiencing and Christian faith

Links and Resources:

Amanda Huffman, LCSW 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript

Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 66. Today on the show we are talking with Amanda Huffman. Who’s a licensed clinical social worker about somatic experiencing therapy. This one is a little bit near and dear to my heart because as I discussed way back in episode 10, I actually received some somatic experiencing therapy for myself before I started to date again, it was super helpful and allowed me to open myself up to another relationship after my divorce.

I loved talking through any body-based therapy because our body gets so activated when you’re dealing with anxiety or even with OCD. There are a lot of those similar symptoms internally that are very distressing. It allows us to tap into deeper places than simply doing talk therapy. And I hope you’re able to learn a lot from Amanda today. Amanda, I really believe that therapists choose modalities that align with them personally and professionally. How did you become interested in somatic experiencing? 

Amanda: That’s a fun question, actually, maybe a little different than others. I started my early career, was in the psychiatric hospital and they trained me in dialectical behavior therapy. And so I developed this kind of, like, heart for working with people with trauma. I started to see it as like, you know, trauma’s really at the root, what prompts the suffering, be it depression, anxiety, or personality-based stuff. If you follow it down to the core, we’re looking at early trauma experiences.

One of my dear friends was just like, Hey, there’s this SE training coming to Austin, like, we should do it. And I was like, let’s okay, sure. Let’s sign up for it. I didn’t really know what I was getting into, in the beginning. Once I signed up, I did read Peter’s book and thought, wow! this, this really sounds like amazing work. And that’s, you know, my interest began to get more and more peaked by this, you know, new modality that I didn’t know much about. 

Carrie: Is Peter Levine? When you read his book, is it waking the tiger? 

Amanda: He has several, but waking the tiger is one of the real foundational books that if people are interested. I would recommend they start with that one.

Carrie: So you were just really looking for an effective trauma treatment and kind of got dragged into the initial training. 

Amanda: Totally. And that’s a funny story too, actually. So here I am in this training, didn’t know what to expect and you know, I come from a very cognitive world. I love DBT, I still use it. There’s a place and time for everything. But, so I come from this cognitive, this world of DBT, and now I’m in the experiential world and I’m like, what it’s happening? And the training itself is different, right? Because it’s a lot of like, let’s get into this and let’s practice with each other. There was this moment I was in like really close to the front. And one of the students in front of me started to have, like a physiological reaction in the midst of the training. And so Maggie Klein, the SE trainer in Austin at the time, she said, “would it be okay if I moved over and I did a little SE work with you”, you know, here in the training let to let people see it, the student was game for it, but I’m sitting right behind them.

So as she’s doing the SE work, I notice my arms start twitching. And I’m like, what is happening to my body? I just went home and let. I laid on my couch and let it twitch. And I’m like, wow! There is really something to this. There was something shifting deeper in my own body just by being near the work that was being done.

And then I was hooked. I was like, I’m in it. I’m sold. I’m gonna follow this to the end. 

Carrie: There’s actually three parts to it. Right? I mean, it takes a while to get trained, you know, in somatic experiencing. 

Amanda: it’s a big commitment. That’s three years. It’s 36 days total, over three years. And it’s really worth it. If there’s a possibility of doing the training, I highly recommend it.

Carrie: And then you went on the third year is actually, touch. And it’s not necessarily always therapists that are in there. Sometimes there are massage therapists and other practitioners that get involved in this training. And after that, you went on to get trained in base. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

Amanda: In your advanced year of SE you do learn about touch and I found it to be very powerful. Being a psychotherapist. I knew that I wanted something more, cause I did not have the background, like body workers come into the training with it. So, Dave Burger, his legacy faculty for SE Somatic Experiencing International.

He’s also a physical therapist as well as a counselor. And a massage therapist and he created a training called Base Bodywork and Somatic Education. The training really goes more in depth around anatomy. It’s like thinking about the body globally, regionally and locally. And so, we might work more specifically in base with a structure like a kidney, your liver, your kidney, and do hands-on work in those specific areas of the body.

Carrie: Tell us about the theory. Behind somatic experiencing and how it works. 

Amanda: That’s a big question. I’ll try to keep it brief. So it was founded by Peter Levine. He was studying trauma and started to look at animals in the wild, like how do they recover from trauma? If they survive a, an attack by a predator that led him to look at the nervous system. And to start to work with the nervous system in conjunction with, you know, what we would normally do in talk, you know, in therapy, which is utilize, talk, unlike cognitive based therapies, as he is gonna work more with the brain stem, we’re gonna incorporate more of body sensation. We’re gonna look at reflexes. We’re gonna look at impulses, board movement.

So as a practitioner, I’m tracking two things, I’m tracking the content of the information, the story. That the client is bringing in, but I’m also tracking the nervous system. So I’m watching, like, did that bit of information. Did someone start to have an, an increase in energy in their body?

Their color might shift or they could get really steel? Their eyes could get a little bit bigger. So you learn to watch for things that might inform me that this person is starting to kind of tiptoe back into a fight, flight or freeze response that happened in the moment of a trauma, but we’re working to integrate that energy. Right? 

So, trauma itself is a high energy state. That energy comes into the body and we need to be able to let the energy go. But a lot of times that gets inhibited. It might be that somebody’s unconscious, or they get strapped to a gurney or they get loaded down with medicines, but it inhibits that natural release of the nervous system.

And so, what we are doing is we’re allowing that process to start to emerge in a slow titrated way. So that energy that got bound up during the trauma can now be renegotiated within the body. So it becomes life energy again.

Carrie: And there’s some, a little bit of movement involved in that, right? 

Amanda: We incorporate movement. We can incorporate touch. Not all SEPs choose to do that. So you have an option around your comfort level. I had a young client who was in a car accident as we worked through the car accident and got closer to the moment of the trauma, where she was hit. We follow the impulse of the body and what her body wanted to do was really.

Her arms and body started to move to the right. It was like, almost as if she had wanted to turn her car away to avoid being hit. And so we let the body follow that instinct. Let’s see what happens if we follow this through and let the body do what it wanted to do. But what got inhibited in that moment?

Carrie: I know a lot of times people with anxiety will have things like leg shaking, you know, where their leg will just be bouncing up and down. All over the place and they’re just like, I just always do that. So that’s something that you would kind of pick up on and notice that’s how you utilize that energy.

Amanda: That’s right. So like that would tell me right away, I’m like, okay, I’m looking at their nervous system. Right? Their sympathetic nervous system sets high. Right? There’s a high level of energy in their body all the time. Right? That just kind of clues me into where we might start working with that person.

I might not go directly to the legs. I might not even bring that up at all, but as the person starts to give me the content of what they’re wanting to work on. As a practitioner, I might be more aware of helping them learn to settle. How do we bring a parasympathetic online, which is the part of our autonomic nervous system that helps bring us down. It’s like we need to practice the coming down so that you can live from a place of ease and flow. Your baseline can be relaxed.

Carrie: That’s good. It does take practice. If you are used to living at that high state, and it almost can become a comfortable discomfort. It’s uncomfortable, but I’m used to it.

Amanda: That’s right. It is also interesting. It gets maybe like a little bit more complex that sometimes when trauma happens, it can happen when we’re in a relaxed state though, if you’re sleeping, if you were at ease and, and you were shocked by trauma, that happened when you were relaxed. There might be a part of your body that says, “I don’t wanna go back there”. Right? I wanna be relaxed again because I’m not on guard. I’m not vigilant to everything that could be happening around me. Right? So it’s like your system gets stuck in a hypervigilant state watching, trying to prevent any trauma from rehappening.

Carrie: I have not been trained in SE,  but I actually received some from another therapist, I talked about this on episode 10 of the podcast. What happened was I went through a pretty traumatic divorce. And then as I was trying to go back out and date, it’s almost like my body would not let me. It was like, I couldn’t sleep. I was having high anxiety and it was only surrounding like the dating issue. And I was like, okay, my life is fine if I don’t date. And if I date it’s a, a bit of a wreck, my nervous system is a wreck, but I would like to date and I would like to get remarried.

So I’ve gotta try to figure this thing out. And I thought, you know, it’s one of those situations where, you know, talking about that is not going to be necessarily the most helpful because everything was so, such a body experience. And I had already done a lot of talk therapy surrounding my divorce. And what happened to me. I had done a little bit of EMDR around it actually, and, and different things. It was interesting. What kind of, what you were just brought up, that what it came down to was really feeling like there was this sense of not feeling like I was gonna be able to protect myself, the next time, like, or in the next relationship. And it was very interesting. I think some of the things that came up out of that, but I just found it to be very helpful. And I feel like I got a lot of relief probably in about, I don’t know, 10 sessions or less. It really just added an extra layer to the work that I had already done on those things in my life.

Amanda: A lot of people will stay with their therapist and they’ll come in to do SE work as a supplement to the therapy they’re already doing. So it doesn’t have to be your primary model of treatment. 

Carrie: Right.

Amanda: But because you are working with the nervous system, people can find relief very quickly.

Carrie: That’s incredible. How are some ways that you’ve also seen it be helpful for people who are experiencing anxiety and OCD. 

Amanda: I loved this question about OCD, cause even as you were talking about your divorce, I mean it’s the same concept. There’s something that happened that felt traumatizing to your nervous system or dis regulating in such a big way. Right? That we wanna sued to ourself. We wanna be able to bring it down and sometimes we find this thing that we do that provides relief and then suddenly that thing becomes a pattern. Right? So then we keep engaging in the thing, whatever.

Carrie: Checking behavior.

Amanda: Checking behaviors in an attempt to settle our nervous system. So,  from an SE perspective, OCD is in general, an anxiety management strategy. What we’re trying to do is just to help the person. Felt, sense of safety within their body and their environment so that they can feel bigger sensations. I can be with this sensation of anxiety as it comes in. And I don’t have to go check to sue them.

I have the capacity to be with the discomfort and to know that I’ll be okay if I don’t go check. One of the ways we do that is we start to really feel into the moments. Right before the checking behavior would come up. What is happening in that space right before the behavior. And can we then interrupt the pattern? Is there something we can do differently here to get that pattern to shift in a different direction? 

Carrie: It’s hard with OCD because a lot of times there may be a disconnection to the body they’re so used to living in that thought realm, what they would probably say to that is, well, I have this obsession and it’s harder to get them to tune into either that anxious the discomfort. That’s also accompanying that obsession or occurring right before the compulsion, like you were saying. 

Amanda: So then you have to work very slowly, right? It’s a titrated experience. You might work with them around experiencing body sensations, not related to the obsession or the compulsion. Something that feels safer for them. So, let’s in general, start to get you more in tune with your body, to live from a more embodied place. So then when we start to tiptoe into the anxiety and the compulsions, you’re already gonna have this kind of baseline to work with. You’re gonna know how to feel, into your body. You’re gonna trust that you can be in your body in a safe way. So, everything we do in SE is slow and titrated.

Carrie: That’s helpful because you’re always trying to monitor and make sure this person, your client is not getting overwhelmed. Which can happen in forms of trauma therapy, really any form of trauma therapy, people can become overwhelmed and you do have to have a good like, pacing and a process there.

Amanda: And it can happen in SE. There are times that people can slide into overwhelm very quickly. It’s not necessarily about perfection, but it’s about trusting that we can also come back to safety. If that happens. But in general, I think of it like swimming. I even explain it to my clients like this. If you, you didn’t know how to swim, or you had a traumatic experience swimming, I’m not gonna, like push you, you know, into the deep end of a pool. Right? We might even just talk about what it’s like to see the pool. And then we notice what happens in your body. And we help your body take in the image of a pool in a way that feels safe. And so then, you know, we titrate that more and more until the person has more safety, getting closer to the pool, putting their foot in the pool, experiencing the feel of the water.

Carrie: How do you feel like this is different? Obviously, it sounds very different from other forms of, of talk therapy, but I mean, maybe you can even talk about it a little bit as similarities and differences to other forms of trauma therapy. You know, you’ve got, like exposure and CBT and EMDR brain spotting. There’s just a lot of options out there in terms of trauma treatment. How do you feel like this approach is, is different? 

Amanda: I, I feel like it’s different. The things that I am familiar with, like a DBT, CBT, they’re gonna work with your cognition. It’s kind of like you have thought. And this thought is wrong and we need to change the thought. And if we change the thought, then you’re gonna feel better. And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t, it’s like, I know the thoughts wrong and I still have the thought. And if it were that easy, I would’ve done this already. Right? So with SE what’s different about it is that bottom-up approach.

We are looking at all of it, not just the thoughts. So, you know, you have the story that’s unfolding, but as the story unfolds again, I am watching and tracking their body’s reaction to their own story and I’m helping them slow it down so they can feel the story in their body. Right? There’s something really important about being in an embodied place to be able to. Then get to healing. Right?

If I stay up in my cognition and I rush through it, then I might not actually feel it. And when I connect with my body and I can feel it opens up so many possibilities for being able to be with an uncomfortable emotion or find some type of completion to it. In a way where it doesn’t reoccur.

Carrie: I know I started out doing some CBT-based trauma therapy and there was just always felt like there was something missing from it, you know? And now looking back and understanding what I know about trauma being stored in the body. Something we’ve brought up on this show before is how much our bodies, really involved.

In that process of storing trauma and processing trauma. It makes sense. Why just kind of focusing on maybe lies that you believed about the trauma. It was my fault and people could, you could get them to a place where they could say, “okay, well I know it wasn’t my fault”, but it always felt like their fault, you know, internally there was something that resonated in their body that felt that that was very real.

Amanda: It’s like the development, the meaning or the story they create around the trauma. Very, very real. When we’re blaming ourselves for the trauma that happened to us. Now through SE as you work through the trauma and someone is experiencing the impulses, maybe to push away or to set a boundary or to leave a room like it, we’re restoring what they wanted to do in that moment. And there’s something really powerful about them recognizing that their nervous system took over and they really didn’t have a choice in that moment. They have a choice now, as we work through it again, it’s like we have one foot in the past in the story and we have one foot right now in the present. And so we’re restoring that choice to them. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really great. 

Amanda: And I wanna rephrase that, cause it’s not like we are restoring the choice we’re with them as they restore their choice, right? We’re just with them in it. I feel like that was an important maybe correction around language for me to make, cause it’s not, it’s not about me giving them something. It’s about me being with them as they create something new for themselves. 

Carrie: In terms of EMDR, we talk about like, kind of staying out of the way a lot and allowing the brain to do what it needs to do. Do you feel like it’s similar in SE like there’s an element of the body knows what it needs to do and you just kind of have to tap into that and find that out.

Amanda: Definitely. We are always saying that the body knows what to do and to trust it, the body wants to move toward healing. And there are times that it gets stuck, right? There’s a pattern that gets stuck in the body and we are there to help. I love Dave Burger’s word for it. He says “nudge all the time”. He’s like, we’re there to just help nudge it in the right direction. Even sometimes just being with someone is enough for them to start moving in the right direction. Just to know that they’re in the room with somebody who’s regulated and safe.

Carrie: I’m curious, about your thoughts on the Christian faith and SE.

Amanda: Well, I think about, you know, I come from a Christian background. I got my master’s in divinity and I think SE goes hand in hand with my Christian faith. If you think about it. The healing that Jesus did, which he was hands-on. He put hands on people. And I think about that often when I have people in my office and I’m doing work that’s hands on and remembering that it’s just an honor to be with this person, right? There’s this human in front of me that I get to be with in their healing journey. So for me, It goes hand in hand with my faith. 

Carrie: So, towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Amanda: Most memorable clients, Phil to this day gives me hope. So a young man I worked with years ago and when he came into my office, he was self injuring daily. He had probably 10 to 12 psychiatric hospitalizations a year.

Carrie: Wow!

Amanda: And as we started to journey this path of trauma work and healing, he was very open. You know, he was like, let you know anything that will help. So we did a lot of SE work. Now after about a year of work well, right away, the self injury started to decrease. That was huge for me, cause I wanna know that someone’s safe and, it was just a relief to see that decrease after about a year of work hospitalizations was stopped. Phil’s injuring had stopped. He went back to school, he got his master, he got married. He had a family. I hear from him from time to time and. 

Carrie: Wow!

Amanda: He’s got a great job. Life is normal. So, this journey of trauma work of doing his SE work, like it changed his life significantly.

Carrie: And that would be somebody maybe that somebody else would look at and say, well, that person just has no hope. They’re just gonna continue. Repeat this mental health cycle and that they’re stuck in.

Amanda: Yes. That’s right. Or, you know, sometimes therapists feel overwhelmed by it. They’re like, the self-injuring piece or the amount of trauma can be scary for some therapists. If they haven’t had training and helping people who self injure.

I think sometimes clients come in with a feeling of hopelessness around finding someone who will be with them. In those scary moments, but I think trainings, like I see and base, like, they’re, they’re so helpful. I, I wish I could put better words on it, but you know that they are going to help someone in such a deep way that I could just fall back on that. And know like, believe he’s gonna get better, even if my level of skill wasn’t there. I know that this training, I know that this modality is going to be powerful enough to help him.

Carrie: That’s awesome. So I know that we will put your, a link to your website in the show notes. If people like to contact you and reach out to you. What area of the US are you in? 

Amanda: I was in Austin for 20 years, but I moved home to central Kentucky right before COVID hit, so, I am just South of Lexington. A small rural town South of Lexington, Kentucky. I’m all in private practice now. And I am working on building a somatic retreat center in an organic farm.

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s pretty amazing. Well, you’re not as far from me as I thought you were. You’re just across the top of the state there.

Amanda: Where are you?

Carrie: I’m in Smyrna, Tennessee. 

Amanda: I thought you were in Texas. 

Carrie: We learned something about each other. 

Amanda: You did. We did.

Carrie: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate this has been very insightful. I think for people who are looking for a different type of therapy, maybe that they’ve been receiving currently, it’s always good to let people know that there are many different options. So if one doesn’t work for you by all means, try something different.

Amanda: And if I could add one thing, Carrie, it would be that therapies like SEM base, they are so helpful in communities where there’s a stigma around mental health because they really do understand that mental health isn’t this thing. That’s about strength or your willpower or you’re, you know, like go fix your brain.

They really get that trauma is about the way energy got found in your nervous system. And let’s help your physiology recover from it. Found that to be a very powerful way to discuss it. In my community.

Carrie: By the time this episode comes out, hopefully, I will be on maternity leave enjoying lots of baby snuggles. Pray for my sleepless nights. Thank you very much. I actually went to four sessions of somatic experiencing therapy during my pregnancy. Super healing again. I had these experiences of being hospitalized as a child that I had dealt with in therapy in the past, had done some talk therapy, some EMDR therapy, I think even came up during dating with the somatic experiencing therapy.

Everything was rolling along quite nicely until I started to think about having to go into the hospital again. And even though this time I wasn’t going in for an illness or an injury, there was a sense of vulnerability that was getting really triggered up. Going through those few sessions and unpacking my different hospitalizations helped me so much to feel more confident about going into a positive birthing space.

I want to invite you to join our Hope for Anxiety and OCD Facebook group. It’s a really great way for us to be able to get to know our listeners and for you to interact with others who are experiencing similar struggles. We strive really hard to make it a positive space for everyone to come be encouraged and hear what’s helping other people. We will put a direct link in the show notes for you to be able to get there. As always,  thank you so much for listening. 

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me. Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.  Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

65. ACT Therapy for Anxiety and OCD with Ingrid Ord, psychotherapist and author

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 65. ACT Therapy for Anxiety and OCD with Ingrid Ord, psychotherapist and author

My guest today is an experienced Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) practitioner and author, Ingrid Ord. Ingrid talks about the connection between ACT and Christianity.

How did Ingrid develop an interest in ACT?

What is ACT, and how does it work?

How does ACT help with anxiety and OCD?

Bible characters who went through hard times and learned to accept their situations.

Ingrid’s book, ACT with Faith

Related Links and Resources:

Ingrid Ord

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript

Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 65. If you’re new to the show, I’m your host, Carrie Bock. And we are all about using shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. If you’ve been a fan of the show for a long time, you know that we love to discuss different types of therapy here. I could be helpful for people who are struggling with anxiety or OCD. I like to do that because you always hear people say, “Eh, I tried therapy. It didn’t work for me”. Did therapy not work because it wasn’t the right modality for you? Did therapy not work because you didn’t have a great relationship with your therapist? There are so many variables there that we could die suck. 

Today on this show, we are talking with Ingrid Ord, who is a therapist and author of ACT With Faith. ACT is a type of therapy that we’re going to be talking about today. And that stands for Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. If you want the long name, this wasn’t a therapy I knew much about. So, it was interesting to learn from Ingrid. And I know it’s a therapy that’s being incorporated more and more in OCD treatment. I hope you enjoy this interview.

Ingrid, I believe that therapists choose modalities like therapy that align with them personally and professionally. So I’m curious: how did you become so interested in acceptance and commitment therapy, also called ACT?

Ingrid: I’ve been working for a number of years, right? The modality I was in before I went to CBT and REBT was client-centered therapy, which fit me very well. REBT, Rational, Emotive, Behavior, Therapy. And it can be quite very proactive, and I found that quite hard. Then I found ACT, and suddenly, there was a therapy that did everything I’d been training up until that point. But allowed a much softer, gentler approach to actually being in the client’s space and not pulling them into your space. 

Carrie: REBT is pretty confrontational.

Ingrid: It’s very confrontational, and you have your disputations. It works really well. They were male lawyers.

Carrie: Certain populations might be necessary for us.

Ingrid: Certain populations. The thing with ACT is that it seems to work at the cold front. It’s one of the few therapies I’ve found that when the patient or the client actually needs it, it works for them. 

Carrie: Okay. So, tell us a little bit about what ACT therapy entails. 

Ingrid: Well, very much as the name says, within the acceptance part, it’s about willingly accepting that we have experiences that we don’t want and going into the experience. And being with it because these experiences invariably tell us something very important about our values. If I’m anxious about something, it’s probably because it’s something that there’s something in there that’s very important to me. So, if I’m anxious about meeting someone, it could be that it’s very important to me to make a good impression on this person. And why is it important to me? Maybe I’m envisaging a future relationship, a job, or something like that. It’s important to be within the experience itself. It’s tempting not to want to be there, to distract ourselves, and to all the denial stuff. And so the link between accepting what we’ve got in the moment and committing ourselves to taking action will take us in the direction of our values. Never mind what’s going on. What’s very attractive to me? 

Carrie: So there’s a sense of I’m accepting that I have anxiety about maybe going to a job interview because I want to look good or I really want a new job, but even though I’m anxious, I’m still going to work through that to the point where I’m committed to saying, I’m still going to put myself out there for this opportunity. I’m still going to the interview, show up, and do my best. 

Ingrid: Yes. So you take public speaking is a common problem with many people often, you know, seen this done in, in workshops and I do it myself is to acknowledge to the people there, how anxious I am, but I’m here because this is very important to me putting this across is a very important thing. And so I brought my anxiety was me, and I’m doing it anyway. 

Carrie: That’s good. I imagine that you’ve seen that it can help people with anxiety work through avoidance because avoidance feeds that cycle of anxiety and worsens everything. 

Ingrid: No, yes. I have a very dear friend in the app community, Robin Molson. She showed me in one of the first workshops. It’s a series of concentric circles. We’re right in the beginning of the circle, is what you are not wondering. And then the next circle will be what you do to avoid it. And then the next circle will be the results of what you’re doing to avoid it. And then there’s another biggest circle, the results of the results. So you end up with a little problem in the middle and the huge amount of consequences from actually avoiding taking action and sitting, you know, doing what you needed to do, whatever it is that you need to do that you’re anxious about.

Carrie: I’m curious about this in terms of OCD. Where people are taking action, but they’re doing things that they don’t want to be doing. They’re engaging in compulsions, trying to get out of repetitive thought patterns. What would ACT say about that? 

Ingrid: Well, one of the first things within there is the good old exposure exercises that you do and help the person to expose themselves to the situation so that they actually feel the anxiety. OCD is a specialized sort of area in that not that you have to be specialized, but you need to realize that the obsessions and the compulsions are there in order not to feel the anxiety. So you help the person go backward in the process to hopefully not do the compulsion or let the obsession go. And then, they will feel the anxiety and expose themselves to the feeling of the anxiety as being something totally normal. It’s going to happen. 

You have anxiety and are doing all these things to stop yourself from feeling anxiety. That is totally normal, but now it’s all become a big problem on its own.

So we need to unpick that take you backward so that you see that you actually can feel the anxiety. And live and get on with things, and it goes away. It always amazes me how people are so amazed that it goes away that you will stop thinking about this. You will, and it will go away if you stop listening to it and arguing with them.

Carrie: Right. And I think sometimes, in OCD treatment, that first step is really developing an awareness of how this plays out in a person’s life. And then being able to separate, like, I am not my OCD. I’m dealing with OCD.

Ingrid: Oh, yes.

Carrie: But it’s not my character. I may have these obsessions about hurting someone, but that’s not my value system. My value system is in loving people and caring for people. And that’s been shown through their behavior. 

Ingrid: Yes, absolutely. And it’s strange that you should mention that about, you know, not me and my values system. Very often that is a factor within OCD is that things are occurring, obsessions, compulsions that are totally in opposition to what their value systems are, which, of course, creates an immense amount of guilt and shame and so on, and actually help the person to understand that because it’s in your value system. That’s why you have these. The very fact that you’re so afraid of that means you’re going to have the obsession of the compulsion. 

Carrie: And we’ve talked about this before on the show, I think in your relationship to scrupulosity that people.

Ingrid: Yes.

Carrie: Those who are more spiritual and who have a connection to God are more likely to struggle with scrupulosity if they have OCD. I think that I can really see how this would be helpful for people with that sense of, there’s say, acceptance over the issue. And then you even said something earlier about taking it along with you. Can you talk with us a little bit more about that? Cause I know that that’s also a principle.

Ingrid: I often use the metaphor of a backpacker over the shoulder bag and say, look, you’ve got this thing, and it’s stuck to you, and it’s not going to go away. It’s like one of those magnetic games: as you move, it’s going to move with you. So instead of spinning off, trying to push it away, put it in your backpack, put it in your sling bag, and go and do what you want anyway because it won’t leave you.

So go ahead and do it. And it really helps to visualize it as well. So sometimes, I’ve had somebody visualize a little purple man who was giving her absolutely. I guess you should put them in the bag about herself, esteem, and all arresters and take him with you. And, of course, she must always be careful not to disrespect the mind. You’re not showing disrespect for the mind because the person needs to know your mind is doing its job. It’s just doing it in a bit of a weird way right now. 

Carrie: It’s trying to protect you.

Ingrid: We always need to be careful not to undermine the mind’s job and get the person to feel that their mind is somehow defective. That’s actually a very important part of actors. There is nothing wrong with you. You’ve got problems because there’s everything right with you. 

Carrie: Oh, wow. This is a very interesting reframe for people. 

Ingrid: Isn’t it wonderful?

Carrie: It takes off that shame layer, really.

Ingrid: Yes. And the fear of, you know, am I losing it? I always joke that the least funny joke ever is of all the things I’ve lost in life. I miss my mind the most. 

Carrie: I’m curious for you: how does ACT therapy align with faith in God and biblical teaching?

Ingrid: Actually, that’s a very close fit because the stitching with the thing I’m trying to avoid and actually sitting with it and willingly accepting it is much easier as a Christian because I have got the added strength of grace without being a Christian. I willingly accept that struggling against this thing will make me worse, but that’s just pure straight logic, and I learn it through experience, and that’s how it works. But now that I’m a Christian, I know that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord. And so whatever I’m experiencing is somehow going to work towards my good. And if I am in it and with it and thinking about God’s promises, you know what He has promised me here, it increases my faith. 

Carrie: Everything is purposeful. I think one thing as Christians that we fight against sometimes. Is, you know, okay, God, why am I going through this? Can you please take it away so that I don’t have to deal with it anymore because it’s uncomfortable and it’s painful. And I know that you have the power to do that. And instead of, like you were saying, really leaning in and saying, okay, there must be some purpose that this experience is here.

Ingrid: Yes.

Carrie: And God has allowed it in my life for some reason or another, you know, maybe it’s to help somebody down the road. That’s going to be going through a similar experience; maybe it’s to grow my character internally, and I could see how this therapy could help you lean into that. 

Ingrid: Sometimes it’s to help me to learn something that I really need to learn. You’re like recently after I tell you at the end, but we’ve been living on a boat, and I tend to live in my head, but you can’t when you’re on a boat, and I’ve seen some many beautiful things and outside that I wouldn’t have been part of. Cause that would have been busy in my hand. 

Carrie: I know for me right now, I’m dealing with some chronic back pain related to my pregnancy. It’s taught me so much about many different things, but really relying on God, understanding my limitations, and having compassion for my clients with chronic pain. I think that it’s not over yet. So, I think there are probably still more things that I will learn or somehow will grow from this experience of going through it. 

But it is hard to accept when you’re in the middle of it. You know, it’s like, I can take my back pain with me to exercise and recognize that I don’t feel like exercising because I’m in pain. But when I start to do the stretching and the yoga and the things that I know will be good for me and the core exercises, I start to feel better. And I know that what I’m doing is not exacerbating anything. It’s trying to help the other muscles support my back and support. So I can see that in what we’re talking about today.

Ingrid: And would you say that it would then help you with empathy was chronic pain patients who sometimes seem to be quite childish, or it helps to have empathy with that to say, I know it feels really, really, really hard. 

Carrie: Sure. Have you seen in terms of biblical characters that you’ve studied how they may have accepted a situation and then acted based on it?

Ingrid: One of the things that mean a lot to me is the three Hebrew children, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, being thrown in the fire. And they said,” I think it was never that our God could save us from the fire, but even if he doesn’t, we still weren’t worshipping here.” That’s been a lot to me. There’ve been a few occasions in my life where, you know, you’re up against it, and it’s like, do this or else. And even if God doesn’t save me. So that’s one and the other one, really his job, even though he slays me when I trust him.

Carrie: Yes.

Ingrid: I struggle to get through this without getting emotional. But there’ve been very, very hard times in my life where that’s resonated in my head that God, I don’t know what you’re doing. And it feels like this is killing me, but I trust you. 

Carrie: Tell us a little about the book you wrote, “ACT With Faith.”

Ingrid: Well, I wrote it initially. The audience I chose was non-Christian therapists because I believe that there are many out there who are highly competent and would be very willing to work with Christians. With their own belief because, you know, ACT has a pragmatic Trist criteria which states that whatever the client believes is the truth in that room at that time. So even with a non-Christian therapist, Christian clients’ truths are what’s important. 

So, I thought I’d put out there what Christian truth is in terms of the six ACT processes or the six major processes lined in ACT. So, the therapists could relate process by process to various aspects of Christians’ beliefs. And I also wanted to give them eight for their Christian clients. So I put in a whole lot of appendices, which a client hands out, but if there’s something they don’t understand, like grace, they can hand it to their clients, and their clients can see how it relates to the whole ACT process.

Carrie: I like that a lot. Who has been resonating with the book, or have there been other people as well that have picked up on it, maybe clients that have read it and resonated with it or a Christian therapist?

Ingrid: I found it actually at a wide range of people because many clients have resonated with it. And people who are not Christians. People have come to me to say, “How can we adapt this for Muslim clients?” or I am trying to help and explain to them that the way I work is to say if I have a Muslim or Hindu or another religion, we have a religious book, and this is what it says. And I’m sure there are some things similar to this in your book. Can we see if we can find it? And there is something like if we’re dealing with marriage or relationship issues or whatever. People who are Christians who are not Christians

Carrie: That’s awesome.

Ingrid: In a very wide range of people. 

Carrie: Towards the end of every podcast. I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Ingrid: Kind of alluded to this, but in 2018, my husband and I both felt that God was indicating to us to leave South Africa and return to the UK. The unfortunate part about it was that we would have nothing because of, you know, exchange rates, etcetera. Various factors meant that we would arrive here was nothing. We have about, so we’ve lived on the boat. It wasn’t supposed to be for three or four years, but that has been that, and it’s been very hard. The summers are beautiful, of course. And that’s what I was alluding to earlier with, you know, at being outside, seeing the nature it’s beautiful. But winters are tough, and we applied for housing, and it’s taken a very long time; we were approved in June, and it’s been hanging on hanging on. And today we got the large vacation, the house we love is ready, we can move it next week. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really beautiful. It’s hard to wait on those types of things, but praise God.

Ingrid: It’s very hard, it’s very hard to wait, and that’s been what I was, you know, about Joe, and I’ve been very ill on the boat at times, just saying to the Lord, “Okay, I know you have this in hand, I know you have it in half.” It takes you a bit longer than order a life.

Carrie: Yes.

Ingrid: I know we are both very excited about that. 

Carrie: It’s really being able to trust that he’s going to take care of things.

Ingrid: And, of course, deal. But you know, we’ve had to do quite a lot of, you know, applying and sorting and working and, so we do our bit.

Carrie: Sure.

Ingrid: But God is there, and he’s in control. And he knows exactly, and we couldn’t have chosen if I’d had to draw a little cottage that I would love to be in. I couldn’t have done anything more beautiful than what we’ve actually got.

Carrie: I’m so excited for you to be able to move into your place. And thank you so much for having this conversation about ACT with us. We’ll put links to your website and the book in case people want to learn more.

Ingrid: Great. Thanks, Carrie. Nice talking to you. And I hope the rest of your pregnancy goes well or you don’t have a bad backache. 

Carrie: Thank you. Thank you. 

Have you had any personal experience with acceptance and commitment therapy?

I think it would be interesting to have someone on the show from the client’s perspective. I wanted to share with you something that I’m very excited about, and that is what we now have: a Hope for Anxiety and OCD Facebook group. I know not all of you are on Facebook. It has its good things and bad things about it for sure. However, we wanted to create an opportunity for listeners to really interact with each other. And interact with myself. I’m hoping this will really help expand our audience reach because there are many people who still don’t know about the show. While at the same time, getting to know those of you who are listening on a regular basis. We will put a link for you to that group in the show notes and hope you will join us over there. Thank you so much for listening. 

Well Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, be comforted by God’s great love for you.

53. Yoga Therapy for Trauma with Anissa Hudak

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 53. Yoga Therapy for Trauma with Anissa Hudak

Anissa is a certified yoga therapist who helps traumatized women release the trauma from their bodies through yoga therapy.

  • How Anissa developed her interest not just in yoga, but yoga as a therapy
  • How has yoga therapy helped people whom Anissa has worked with?
  • The difference between yoga and yoga therapy
  • How does yoga therapy release trauma?
  • What is a yoga therapy session like?

Related links and resources:

Anissa HudakIf you enjoy the podcast and want to support what we’re doing, or if you’re looking for self-help materials to assist you on your journey of managing your anxiety and OCD in healthier ways. Audio teachings, relaxation exercises, and my book on how to find a therapist are provided for self-help via monthly subscription, go to www.patreon.com/hopeforanxietyandocd


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Transcript

Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD episode 53. I am your host, Carrie Bock. And today we are talking with Anissa Hudak on yoga therapy. So if you know anything about our show, we are all about mind, body, emotion, spirit. God has created us with all of these different aspects of our being. And it’s helpful to understand that healing can come in many different forms for people.

I like that yoga therapy combines the physical healing of our bodies while also there’s a level of emotional healing because trauma can become stored in the body. And we get into some of that on the show today. 

So without further do here is my interview. And this I’m so excited to have you on the show today to talk about yoga therapy.

This is just gonna be, I think, really helpful and informative for some of the, listeners who have experienced trauma. A lot of times there’s overlap between, you know, people who’ve experienced trauma and people who experience anxiety and OCD. So thank you for coming and talking with us about this.

Anissa: Well, thank you for having me on.

Carrie: Tell me a little bit about how you got interested in not just yoga, but further training to get into yoga therapy. 

Anissa: Well, you know, life is a journey and nobody wakes up one day and says, “I wanna work with people who’ve had trauma”.

Carrie: Right. That’s true.

Anissa: I started in 2013, with a teacher training course in yoga, and I just loved yoga. I had been practicing for several years at that point, and I wanted to be able to do my own yoga practice and keep myself safe. I didn’t wanna have to go to anybody else’s class and be on somebody’s schedule. So I took a, a teacher training course. It was the level one. I had no aspirations of doing anything else. And within a month of me finishing the class, I had two job offers. 

Carrie: Wow.

Anissa: And I kind of was like, okay, I think. Somebody’s trying to tell me something here. And so I had kind of gotten the bug. I really enjoyed the people I was interacting with in that class. And I decided I’m gonna take another class. And I kind of got that bug and, you know, I started teaching and it just kind of snowballed. So when I was signing up for some classes, I noticed that there were, classes for PTSD. At the time my husband was active duty military. We are stationed right outside of Fort Riley, Kansas. We had people, all kinds of, you know, men and women deploying coming back. We had tons of military in the community. I was like, I live in the belly of the beast here. You know, this would be a great thing to know to help my community. 

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: And so I started on this track and I was in, first day, first class about halfway through and I sat there and said, “oh boy, the first person I need to work on is right here”. I hadn’t realized a how much trauma I had been through, how much PTSD I was really carrying around and how it had crawled into the nooks and crannies in my life and was actually holding me back. And I thought I had a really good handle on it, but I was like, I guess I don’t. And so it really became this self-discovery, self-healing. And in the process, I was able to help other people with it. And so it’s been a really amazing journey for me, not only personally, but also being able to help others.

Carrie: That’s incredible. I think that many people who have experienced trauma they find ways to survive, essentially survival skills and sometimes that’s cutting off their emotional experience. Sometimes it’s isolating in relationships. I mean, there can be a variety avoiding places and people and situations that make them triggered. It’s interesting to hear you say like, okay, well, I, I mean, I thought I had it together. I was, I was doing okay. Were there certain things that kind of came up in your practice or in that class that kind of were red flags for you of like, I really need to work on this. 

Anissa: I think that what really took me back was when I was learning the science behind it all, what’s going on in the brain, what’s going on in the body. It’s all science-based. And I sat there and I was like, this should be taught to everyone in high school biology. We should all know what happens with our body. We’re all gonna experience trauma on some level. And we know that when we break a bone, we go to the hospital, we have an x-ray, we get a cash.

However, when we break our central nervous system, how do we reset that, we’re not taught that. And that was what really clued me in, because we were talking about symptoms and I’m like, I do that. I do that too. Wait a minute. Wait, you know, and that’s when I really realized, okay, I don’t really have a handle on this.

Carrie: And I think that’s so true. It’s not clear-cut for people, how to heal from trauma. A lot of times there’s a lot of different ideas and thought processes out there. And unfortunately, sometimes people think, well, I can talk about it. I mean, it doesn’t really bother me. I can talk about it, but they haven’t dealt with these other layers of emotion and trauma being stored in the body.

Anissa: Absolutely. You know, I have a therapist, I take medication. There’s nothing wrong. I there’s no shame in it.

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: However, there are more ways to skin a cat. And I don’t know why they say that. But there’s more ways to go about it. There’s so many layers to trauma and yes talking about it, working it out through your mind is wonderful. You know, sometimes we need a little bit of, you know, better living through chemistry and that’s okay, too. However, it’s in the body. We actually have muscles that trap emotion. And we need to release that or else you’re what we’re gonna, you know, progress in your healing journey. 

Carrie: That’s really incredible. I mean, I, I think most people don’t know that, or haven’t learned that haven’t realized that, you know, you can have emotional releases, through trauma work that are physiological and in your body. 

Anissa: And what’s sad is that this is not being taught in high school biology or, or what have you. But we all have this. We all need it. And that’s what really stuck with me. So not only did, was I learning this on a personal level and utilizing it, but also it kind of became, my mantra. I wanna bring this out. I want people to know what’s going on in your body. 

Carrie: Right. And there are people, especially who have experienced sexual trauma who are cut off from their physical experience, you know, due to what happened to them understandably so and that can cause problems. Obviously, when you get into relationships and you want to feel good having sex and you don’t, or your body starts to react in a way that you don’t want it to, you know, maybe you tense up when you don’t want to. So talk with us a little bit about what you’ve seen, maybe in the people that you’ve worked with, is that some of, kind of what you’ve done or how you’ve helped people?

Anissa: Well, the word yoga means yoke and it means to bring together. The body and the mind. 

Carrie: Okay. 

Anissa: And you could sit there and you could talk about your rape if you will. And it’s not a problem. And yet your body, you know, tells the different story because you’re not connected. There are certain things that I do in the class that help people to connect with their body again. Some people are really angry with their body. They didn’t protect them. And so they are disconnected from their body. They don’t wanna be in their body and they start living. And, and that’s one of the things about PTSD is that you really live from the neck up. 

Carrie: Yes. 

Anissa: You forget about the rest of your body. And it’s really where on the map, we’re able to bridge that gap and get people to start. Feeling in their body in a very safe and controlled environment. And it’s not scary. I think of my job as I welcome people back into their bodies. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. So tell us about the difference between yoga and yoga therapy.

Anissa: I love this. If we think of yoga as a big pie, If we split it down the middle and on one side we have fitness based yoga and there are so many wonderful techniques at different ways that Aerial yoga there’s, you know, Ashtanga and  and coed, naked, hot yoga, and you know, all of these different things. And they’re great for a workout. Will it encompass your mind? Will it do similar things absolutely? Can you have an emotional release in one of these classes? Yes, you can. However, here’s the difference. On the other side, we have yoga therapy and all of have been especially trained for a specific thing. So we have yoga therapy for arthritis, cardiac rehab cancer. And so we all have our special, you know, niche that we work in. Being that it’s PTSD trauma and TBIs, traumatic brain injuries. 

I have special protocols that I have to go through. If someone has an emotional release on the mat, I know how to handle that. I’ve been taught how to handle that. I know how to keep them safe. Everyone else in the class safe, myself safe and various other things. However, someone who is fitness based yoga, you know, teaches, they may not have that background. They may not know how to help you. Through that emotional relief, they might even kick you out of the class for being a disturbance. Now that’s not gonna be helpful if you’re having an emotional release.

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: So really finding what meets your needs is incredibly important. 

Carrie: Yes. 

Anissa: You wanna find a class that, that really caters to what your needs are, and if you can’t find maybe a yoga therapy class, if you talk with the instructor for a regular fitness-based class. They might be able to help you either in their class or find someone else.

Carrie: Now I would imagine that you would have to do this on a smaller scale. If you are working through, you know, traumatic release, you’re not gonna want a large number of people in there is that true? Do you tend to have like smaller base classes or one on one work with people? 

Anissa: I do one on one. I do smaller base classes. That is my personal preference. I think it’s more intimate. 

Carrie: Sure.

Anissa: I think we create a better bubble if you will. It, you know, it is a little bit easier to kind of keep, watch over everyone to ensure, the classes themselves are really about having smaller, emotional releases. They may not even know what’s happening. They may not even feel it happening. Now there is a technique that we can do that’s actually a, a larger emotional release. Those are done one on one. Those are done after I’ve gotten to know the student. I mean, they’re not gonna just walk through the door and say, Hey, I wanna do a major emotional release.

No, we’re not gonna do that. I need to know this person. I kind of need to know the background. I’ve had students who are with me for three months and they do it. I’ve had a student with me for over five years and we’ve never done it. It really depends on where the student is, you know, with their practice and, and with their healing.

Carrie: Do you find that people that you work with also practice outside of their time with you? Is that part of, the component that’s helpful? 

Anissa: Some poses I teach for them to utilize outside the class. And sometimes a student will say, “you know, I was making my coffee this morning and I found myself in, you know, tree pose”. And they start living their yoga off the mat, which is really a beautiful thing. And they’re doing it really unintentionally. It just kind of subconsciously happens. And that’s really where the fun is. 

Carrie: I remember from this has been years ago since I used to go to yoga classes pretty regularly. And I remember one of the teachers saying, “you know, eventually you’ll be in tune with your body enough to know what type of like, poses and stretching that you, your body needs that day, you know, based on just kind of how you’re feeling”. And I would imagine it’s, it’s similar in the emotional reality. 

Anissa: It is when I queue oppose, there’s a lot of different languaging around it. I mean, you know, usually, in most classes they’re like, okay, you know, downdog and you know, updog. And I phrase my cues, like, I’m gonna invite you to join me in downdog giving people the power to make the decision when we’ve experienced trauma. A lot of times our power has been taken away from us.

Carrie: Right.

Anissa: And so this actually gives how we’re back and then I’ll say, you know, here we are, we’re in kneeling warrior one, and you have options with your arms. You can do this, you can do that. You can, what is your body wanting today? Where do you feel like you wanna be today? And that again, not only gives them options and their power back to make that decision, but also helps them connect with their body. What am I feeling today? Do I want my arms up? Do I want them to the side? And so that helps to bridge that disconnection, giving them power and connecting the body and the mind.

Carrie: Is there, a typical, I don’t know if length of treatment is the right way to say it, but is there a typical time frame that people come to see you? Do they usually come once a week for a few months or does it just depend on how much trauma they’ve experienced? Can you talk to us kind of a little bit about what that pattern is like?

Anissa: So pre-COVID when we all got to see one another. 

Carrie: Right. 

Anissa: You know, I ran cut classes three times a week. Sometimes, you know, I had somebody in three times a week. It really depends on the person and what their trauma is and how they’re dealing with it. They could be with me for three months. They could be with me for three years.

Each person is so individual. There’s no way to say that there’s a set time protocol. 

Carrie: Sure. 

Anissa: It’s kind of like chiropractic care. The more you do it, the, the better it is, the longer it lasts. And so, you know, that’s what I recommend. That’s why I ran three classes a week, but everybody’s schedule is different.

Carrie: Sure. 

Anissa: So some is better than none. 

Carrie: Yes. Yes. Some is better than none but works on a lot of different areas I’m sure. What kind of results are people seeing from, from doing yoga therapy? 

Anissa: Well, one of the things they usually fall in love with yoga and that, you know, it usually becomes a lifelong thing at that point. They may not go to a trauma-based class, but they might find maybe a fitness-based class that they like, or a different type of restorative class, or, but they become a lifelong fan, which is kinda fun. And it’s really amazing to watch someone have a breakthrough on the mat. You know, you see the light bulb go on, you see something change and it’s beautiful. And it’s wonderful. And to know that you’ve had maybe just a little bit to do with that is really a blessing. 

Carrie: Are you finding that people are less triggered by being in certain poses? Maybe that they were in during the the trauma, like, positioning of their body. I don’t know if that’s.

Anissa: Absolutely. You know, poses can definitely bring on triggers. And, one of the things that I like to do is I like to talk with my students before they even enter my class. You know, tell me a little bit about it, you know, why are you here? Okay. You’ve been raped. Okay. You know, as a two-time rape survivor, you know, I, I walk that walk I get it.  And so I’m really careful about that. You know, one of the number one rule in my class is we do not use any straps. You know, lots of classes use yoga straps, and they’re wonderful things not in my class. We, we don’t use that. The lights remain on at all times. We don’t turn off the lights. I never leave my mat. And if I have to leave my mat, I announce it before I leave. 

That way people aren’t like, why is she walking behind me? And you know, what is she doing? I hardly ever touch my students. I will cue something and differently and reword it. You know, X number of times to see if I can get them into the right pose in the right way. However, if I can’t and I do need to touch them, I ask them, I announce I’m leaving my mat. I go to them. So I, but I also keep in mind, who’s in my class. What if they’ve been dealing with what can’t we do, what should we be doing? How can I do an alternative to that pose so we can get the same result, but maybe in a different way.

Carrie: I think those things that you named as far as just from someone who’s been in yoga class before, I think that those things are huge safety features for trauma survivors because I have been in classes where. Teachers walked her around and where teachers did touch you. And some of them asked and some of them didn’t, some of them just kind of were like, nope, you’re doing this wrong. And let me move your body so you can do it right. I was like, I don’t like that at all. I don’t wanna be touched by somebody. I don’t know that I don’t feel comfortable with. So, I appreciate you spelling that out. I think that that’s so important. 

Anissa: Those are absolute keys as to, you know, what we do because we don’t wanna re-trigger someone.

Carrie: Right.

Anissa: I mean, you know, we’re there to help. And so we have to have different kind of protocols. I said, the way I phrase questions, that’s again psychological, but so needed and so necessary for what we do. And so our class is incredibly different than what you’re gonna see or experience in a regular fitness based class. 

Carrie: That’s good. It’s good to definitely know the differences and it sounds like you definitely have a lot more training than someone who’s just doing fitness based yoga. Is there a certain credentialing process that you had to go through?

Anissa: Well, I became a 500 hour R I T registered yoga trainer teacher.

Carrie: Okay. 

Anissa: Again, I never set out to even ever teach. And so when I say that I kind of giggle because I’m like who would’ve ever thought. And then at that point I had taken so much class so many classes. I had done so much research. I had done other things that I was able to get credentialed through the international association of yoga therapists. And we have a governing body. I just went through my re crench my re-credentialing. It’s great to have a body over us that says, this is what we’re doing. You can go to their website. And that’s I A Y T.com and you can actually find a yoga therapist in your area.

Carrie: Awesome. That’s really great. I think having those certification processes and the governing bodies to making sure there’s some accountability that you have a certain level of training and that, you know what you’re doing, you know, so that’s, that’s huge. Is there anything else that you feel like be helpful for us to know about yoga therapy or about what you do, you know, related to helping people heal from trauma?

Anissa: I would say the most important thing is really when you are going to be employing someone to help you in your healing journey, ensure that they are going to meet your needs. But for instance, if you’re going to go see a therapist and you’ve experienced sexual trauma. Find someone that specializes in sexual trauma. And I will, I’ll tell you firsthand. I had worked with a lot of different therapists and I would progress on my healing journey, but I was still finding that I was going back to therapy and talking about it.

This last time I found a man, I had never worked with a man before you know, I had only worked with women. So I was like, I dunno how I feel about that. 

Carrie: A little hesitant. 

Anissa: I really was. And he specializes in sexual trauma. I have done more work and more healing with this man as my therapist than I’ve ever done in the past with any one person or actually all together, it’s been amazing. So when you find people who meet your needs, that’s really vitally important. Again, you don’t wanna walk into the yoga studio on the corner. And expect to have, you know, these, this brilliant thing happens, something else is gonna happen in there. And it may not be to your liking again, find someone who can meet your needs. And I think that that is key. 

Carrie: That is huge, you know, making sure that you can get connected with the right person. I know that that’s absolutely essential for seeking therapy for different things. Sometimes you work with a therapist for a little while and they can only take you so far and you may have to find somebody else like you were saying that can take you to that next level. And it’s usually when you are looking for that next person that you’re looking for, something a lot more specific. Maybe then you were the first time.

Anissa: Absolutely. I think the other thing I would have to stress is healing, especially from any kind of trauma is a very individual thing. And people try different things and they say, like essential oils didn’t work for me. Okay that’s cool. They may not have worked for you at that point in time where you were in your healing journey, who you were as a person. Try it again in three months, six months, 12 months. Keep trying it again, because you’re at a different point in your healing journey. You’re a different person. Your trauma is different at that point. And so something that may not have worked early on might work later on. So keep trying things. 

Carrie: I think that’s essential for maintaining hope and that’s a lot of what this podcast is about is help people know that there’s hope and theres healing out there, but so often it comes in layers. Sometimes clients will go through a round of therapy and they’ll be doing really well.

And then they’ll be back in six months and they’re like, I don’t understand why I’m still struggling with this. And I’m like, well, you know, you just, you’ve reached a different layer. It’s time for us to do a little bit of deeper that next level of work that you weren’t ready to do that a year ago. And now you are. So this is actually a good thing. This is a good part of your process to like keep going through that work. So I appreciate you saying that. So as we’re kind of winding down the episode here, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.

Anissa: I had this really incredible experience. I talked earlier about having that large emotional release. I was in a teacher training class for yoga. And we did that. We, and it was the first time I had ever experienced it. And I was sobbing. I mean, I had such an emotional release and I was sobbing and sobbing. And then always like, you know, my luck. Right after we do this, it’s lunchtime and they’re providing us with a luncheon. Know, when you go to a yoga training course, you know, and they do that. You’re usually eating like nuts and berries, you know? So there was like salad, you know, you know, it wasn’t anything major, but, you know, so there’s, you know, salads or whatever, and I’m sitting there and I’m like sobbing into my salad. I sobbed for an hour and a half. 

Carrie: Wow. 

Anissa: And women, you know, these wonderful yoginis were coming up to me and saying, “are you Ok, dear?” I just released my salad and I, just go ahead. Just cry it out, just let it go. And nobody was affected by it. Everybody was like, just cry. Let it go. Let it go. You gotta get it out. And I wasn’t chastised. I was encouraged to cry. I was surrounded by all of these beautiful women. They all understood. They all got it. Nobody cared and there was such acceptance and peace around it. 

It was just really lovely. And so when I have a student in my class who cries on the mat and it happens, that’s part of my job is to make people cry you know. I encourage them to cry, let it out. This is great. This is a wonderful thing. Let it go. And what I have found is that the other participants in the class, they start saying it too. And we create this beautiful, safe place for this person to do this release work. And I love how the other generally women in my class. Join in and do that as well. 

Carrie: I think that’s so powerful because so many times there’s kind of this pressure of feel better, pat you on the back. it’ll be okay. You’ll be fine. And instead of allowing that emotional experience, which really in your case was like a gift at that moment. And so for people to be able to say, like that’s here and you can welcome it. And we’re here for you and we’re in support of you instead of like, go away and have that somewhere else. Or like, it’ll all be better. Just, you know, chin up girl or something like that. 

Those societal messages are so I like that, you know, story because we need more of that in our just general society as we’re going through the world and loving on people and I know that I’ve been able to provide some of that for my clients, to who are never given that permission to feel as children or in their adult relationships. It’s just like, crying’s okay. You know, people apologize all the time for crying and we don’t need to like crying is a human thing let it happen. It’s all okay.

Anissa: Absolutely it is. it’s being human. We should never have to apologize for being human. 

Carrie: Right. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Anissa, thank you so much. For coming on, this was informative for me and I know it’s going to be for our listeners as well, and we will put links to your website in the show notes. If people would like to reach out to you, are you doing some virtual classes then?

Anissa: Everything now is online. 

Carrie: Okay. 

Anissa: And I’m actually in the process of getting ready to release a membership for women who’ve been sexually traumatized. And in there there’s going to be recorded sessions. There’s going to be live sessions. We’re gonna have lots of education and all kinds of wonderful things in there to help women along their journey. I’m super excited about it. I actually started working on this pre-COVID. But then, you know, everybody was here in my house during COVID. I couldn’t hear myself think now that we’re kind of back to someone normal. I can get back to what I was doing. 

Carrie: Okay. Awesome, that’s great. 

Anissa: Well, I appreciate you having me on thank you so very much. 

Carrie: Thank you. I am so glad that you tuned in to hear the show today. If you like our show, please be sure to rate and review on iTunes or other platforms. This helps people find the show who are also looking for some great hope, encouragement, and support.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast – Not sure about Therapy?

9. Not Sure About Therapy? Try it on! with Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 9. Not Sure About Therapy? Try it on! with Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP

  • Different therapist personalities and styles 
  • Demystifying therapy
  • Finding the therapist who is the right fit 
  • Different kinds of therapies that therapist utilize such as CBT, DBT, IFS, Psychodynamic or Play Therapy 
  • Erica’s experience with mental health in the African American church 
  • Seeing a counselor of a different race 

Resources and links:
Erica Kesse, Your Goal Concierge
Try on Therapy
Mental Health Marketing Conference 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 9

Hope for Anxiety and OCD. Episode 9

Today, we are talking to Erica Kessee who is a good friend of mine and fellow entrepreneur. She is going to share with us something that she created called Thrive on Therapy. I’ll let her tell you more about that.

One thing that I want you to pick up, hopefully from this conversation is an understanding that there are many different types of counselors and many different personalities of counselors. 

There are many different counseling approaches that those counselors utilize and this can really help you if you’re processing, searching for a counselor, or what you might need from a counselor. And of course, I couldn’t have Erica on the show and not ask her about her experience with racial issues and mental health in the black church, but I was not prepared for what she was going to say.

So let’s go ahead and dive into this episode with Erica. 

Carrie: Miss Erica, you and I used to share an office space together, right? 

Erica: It was a blessing because another colleague told me about you and that you had an office. I was so excited because I was able to be in a space and start my practice in my own office and it was ready for me to hang my shingle. 

Carrie: Yeah and we have to let people understand that this office space was very small and you somehow found a way to make it super cute and homey and you had someone help you decorate. It was adorable, very adorable.

Erica: I was very proud of my space, loved my little space, my little couch. When you will listen to a decorator, they work wonders. So it’s just like, “you paid me.” So cozy and sweet.

Carrie: One of my favorite Erica stories that I have to tell is that we have a lot of things in common. We have really a passion for people getting really good help and treatment and reducing stigma. We have no problem talking about difficult issues, but our temperaments are a little bit different in terms that I’m kind of quiet and somber and calm and Erica is exciting, exuberant, and full of energy and life. That was very interesting. There would be times where I just go down to your end of the hall and just kind of gently turn up the sound machine. Do you remember that? 

Erica: Yes. When I was working in community mental health and in other places when there’s other people around, it’s always been noted that I am having a great time in my session and I am laughing, enjoying the time that I spent with the people who are in the room with me and it is outside of the room and so it made the sound machine to be brought up a little higher.

Carrie: I think that’s an interesting thing cause we’re going to get into this a little bit later about different therapists having different personalities and different fits. There’s just kind of a little intro of one example of that, but tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today professionally. 

Erica: I am Erica Kessee, a CEO and founder of Your Goal Concierge. I also have a service within Your Goal Concierge called Thrive on Therapy. Your Goal Concierge Mission is to provide services, support, enhancement, and encouragement to those who are in helping professions. Counselors, coaches, nurses, frontline people who had to go out of the house even in the middle of quarantine. Those are people that I serve and people who are trying to create businesses, try on therapy as a service specifically because I have a master’s in clinical mental health counseling and civic leadership. 

I wanted to make sure that individuals, both the public had the right fit for their therapy and that therapists had opportunities for networking opportunities to show their craft and opportunities to offer services to others and show what they’re good at and to make sure that individuals are with them. Every counselor coach knows this person is like the perfect client for me because they have a lot of the same story that you have.

You understand how to work with them and get them to the next level. It is an immersive learning experience for individuals. So individuals who have the temporary license, which that’s what I have, or a master’s in clinical mental health counseling can provide this immersive learning experience to people so they can at least get a taste of therapy because there’s a lot of stigma associated with getting mental health services. 

Carrie: Right. I remember you came by my office one day and you were so excited and you were like, “Carrie, you try on clothes?” And I was like, “at the store” and I was like, “yeah”. She was like, “what if you could try on therapy?” And I was like, “What in the world are you talking about? This is a little out there, Erica. I don’t know about all this.”

Tell us about how that originated because you did actually create this for the mental health marketing conference originally, right?

Erika: Yes. Exactly. So for the mental health marketing conference, I started going to the conference while I was at Lipscomb. I went to get my master’s in clinical, both masters from Lipscomb University. There was an opportunity as a student to go to the mental health marketing hub. I got there and I looked around and I saw all the marketers and I thought, where are the clinicians? They don’t have a seat at this table when they’re supposed to be marketing for mental health services. Only the clinicians know how to market to the people they’re trying to bring in the doors. And so I spoke to the founder, which was an Austin parent about incorporating more clinicians. I did speak the next year and it was that third year that we spoke about having clinicians at the table. Then the third year was, hey, we’re going to actually pilot trial therapy and let these marketers experience therapy because they had never experienced therapy. They have no idea how they are going to be marketing something they’ve never experienced. 

Everybody else gets something free. If somebody is in the market, they get a product for free. So they can say, I buy into this product. Like a sample, that’s what trial data is. It’s a sample of therapy and the sample is actually not watered down or anything, but we call it an immersive learning experience because we don’t want to say it’s therapy. It’s just a crucial relationship. So you don’t want to say that you’re entering into that relationship until you’re truly entering into a relationship with a person that’s going to be taking you to the level you need to go to according to your treatment plan. So we offered it and at that time we asked Carrie, even though I went over there to her office, I was actually trying to get her to come to be a trial therapist.

I’m always a connector. I’m always thinking about opportunities to reel people in and Carrie was one of the child therapists that year. I can’t remember the numbers. I do have an annual report. If anybody is interested in it, you can reach out to me for it. I have the numbers in there. With every person that we did have, every person that I met was there also exhibiting. I did have a conversion of a person that stayed with me from that conference that very first time. 

Every single year we’ve done trial therapy there and they asked us to come back every year, try on therapy in there because there are marketers, people who’ve never experienced it. There it’s just valuable and this makes sense to me. 

Carrie: Now you’ve expanded to other places and it’s not just for the conference and it’s not just for marketers, what other locations have you been to where you’ve utilized this? 

Erica: Because of the specificity of the middle half marketing conference so we went to the Sexual Assault Center here in Nashville, Tennessee. They were talking about a particular thing that could trigger individuals. There was a therapist there who could be available for anyone that was triggered but then we also provided sessions at the end of the conference.

I closed two people from that. When I say closed, they converted into clients. I went to the sexual assault center twice. After the second time doing the mental health marketing conference, I met a lady with HCA health corporations in America, and they had a hiring event at top golf, which is a place where people can do golf and shoot there.

Carrie: They’re trying to hit a target right, the golf ball into a target. I’ve never done it before, but it doesn’t look like much.

Erica: It’s a cool place. So we went there and we provided group therapy. We had therapists there, they wanted a group, they wanted to hit as many people as possible and so we did three 30 minute group sessions on self-care. The topic of self-care was amazing. I had a wonderful time. They’re going to invite us back next year. As soon as someone tries it, even like it’s so fun in trial therapy, usually, you convert them to a client. When a corporation tries this trial therapy then they usually want me to come back every year to continue to do it for the individuals that they’re serving.

Carrie: it’s been a great success for you. I think it’s opened a lot of people’s minds to what therapy is. Maybe people have ideas that it’s something mystical or they’re really uncomfortable about it like it’s this big mystery like, “what in the world do you do in there?”

Erica: That’s part of our marketing. What happens behind those closed doors. A part of the marketing is also learning the product of therapy. The product of therapy is sitting with that therapist. The therapist is the product. You need to have a relationship with that person and get the right fit with that person. So I recommend you not just meet someone and say, “Okay, I’m going to go through therapy with that person.”

I feel like you should shop around, there’s a sample here and a sample there of how they flow, how it feels in the session, what things they say, and the methods that they will like to show you. Mainly, I would have to say how it feels, because if you’re doing some transference or anything else, which is when you feel some feelings about this person and you’ve never met them, but they bring up things in you that are not so good, then you don’t need it. Then you don’t need that therapist. You need to get somebody else.

Carrie: You mean if they remind you of your mother who you got a strained relationship with it may not be the best fit.

Erica: Not a good fit. 

Carrie: Talk about that a little bit, because I think a lot of times people approach finding a therapist like they would a doctor like, “Okay, well maybe who’s in my insurance network or who’s the person that’s within the 10-mile radius of me and looking for a therapist really needs to be a very different process than that.

Erica: Oh my goodness Carrie I just had a bright idea and maybe we should collaborate on that. Oh, I’m sorry. This is how I am, but yes it shouldn’t be a different process and you’re right. 

Let’s talk through that process now. It can’t be that way. That’s why when your insurance gives you a list, they give you a list. The list is pretty big.

You need to go through and call through. First of all, if they don’t call, if they don’t call you back or they call you back, like three months later, then you know, it’s not a good fit. There’s some issue that’s there that you don’t mean to keep pursuing but also the whole insurance rate also, the radius is maybe a problem as well. It’s like you have to decide that this is life or death. 

A lot of times people don’t see our mental health, our brains, and our emotional health as a life and death situation, but it is because most of the time when people come to us, it’s a conflict that’s happened. That’s just during a crisis. So sometimes holding onto this crisis for years and then finally it just boils over and they’re finally reaching out. You can’t decide that it’s going to have to be with the person within a radius or the first person that you get to answer the phone. 

Carrie: I think the process of finding a therapist is really important and I can only share from my own personal experience of finding a therapist. There was one period of my life where I really wanted to see a female therapist. I thought that person is going to be someone who I would feel more comfortable with. I don’t feel comfortable with talking with a male right now, but then after I went through some other things. I was really looking to get back into the dating world after my divorce and I just said, “I want to talk to a male about this because I feel like I need that perspective.”

I need that opposite sex perspective of some things that I’m dealing with or some questions that I have and that was just so helpful. So even sometimes that male or female distinction, sometimes people feel more comfortable with a younger therapist. Sometimes people feel more comfortable with an older therapist and don’t feel bad because maybe it sounds kind of superficial like, “Oh, I’m ruling that person out because they’re too old or they’re too young, but it’s who you’re going to be able to connect with personally. Other people are going to be able to connect with that other therapist personally. So it’s okay. 

Erica: It is. I’m so happy you’re affirming and confirming that it is okay to have your preferences. Just like right now because I’ll have to say black awareness and racial awareness that’s happening, I’ve gotten more people contact me who are black or people of color because they need counseling, but also because they are reaching out to someone that looks like them. And so it’s important to decide to pick who you want. Even somebody that looks like you may not be a good fit either. You need the right temperament.

I know I need an action-oriented counselor. I don’t want one to just sit there with me because I will take over the session just like right now. Carrie knows what she’s up to. So like, I need someone that’s going to say, “This is your homework. This is what you need to do.” Give me some parameters. I need some CBT DBT. Well, let me explain those things, cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy. So I need these things for myself. I know that.

Carrie: Sure. Those types of interventions are helpful for you. 

Erica: So that’s something to think about too when you’re trying on therapy is the structure. What is the structure that works best for you? Especially in a trial therapy session, you can always ask a therapist about internal family systems or psychoanalytic therapy or EMDR or like I specialize in plant expressive arts therapy. So talk through what that looks like. 

So it’s, it’s good to kind of build your many, a listing of things that maybe sounds like something you want to try. You can talk through that. For example, when you’re talking about male and female thing. One of the people who came and did the mental health marketing conference was an exhibitor there, so she wasn’t a marketer. She worked in one of the nonprofits. She wanted to test out or try out a male. So she was able to check out one of the males there. I try to have it at the conference, like blubber city, diversity, and males. They’re scarce.

They really are. I had actually a black male. She was able to meet with him and she was the one that converted to see me because she got a taste of him. It didn’t fit and be with me and we did great work. So she did get that out of her system. She understands a male, isn’t a good fit for her.

So then she decided to try something else, which was great. 

Carrie: I think it’s important to you that once you talk with a therapist, whether that’s over the phone or once you meet with them in person, they may be diving into certain topics because of their training and their worldview and how they were trained as a therapist.

Specific different types of therapy, just like Erica was talking about earlier that that person may be kind of guiding you down a path that you might not want to go to. So they may be an insight-based therapist. And you may say, I need an action step or vice versa. Maybe you’re not ready for an action step and you’re just going to therapy because you’re trying to learn about yourself. Maybe I’m very upfront that I’m very interested in people’s past and trauma and difficult experiences that they’ve had because that’s the lens that I work from, but not everybody is like that. Some people will say, I don’t want to hear about your childhood.

I just want to know what’s going on right now. And so it’s important to know those distinctions in terms of finding a fit. If you find someone that’s going in one direction, it’s okay for you to say, you know, I think I’d really like to go a different direction, or I thought we were going to talk about this instead, or this is important to me right now.

You have that power as the client. 

Erica: Yes, Carrie. I’m very expressive. So yes, it is definitely about the relationship that you have with the person that you’re working with. You have to take ownership of your session. I’ll have to say this in a medical field too a lot of people are not taking ownership of all of their doctor’s appointments as well.

But with counselors, you’d say, “Hey, I want to work on this because they’re supposed to be building your treatment plan according to what you need and what you think your goal is. That’s one reason why my organization is called Your Coal Concierge. I’m your goal concierge. I’m going to help you with your goal.

It’s just important to have that relationship and speak up for yourself. There’s no power differential between you and your therapist. They are an expert in what they’re expert in. So they do understand that because they got the master’s degree, but you’re the expert on you and they’re there to help you work through and deal with and support you and where you’re going.

Carrie: I love this conversation but I also want to move on because I know there’s some other things I want to ask you about. 

What is your spiritual background and how would you describe your spiritual identity today? 

Erica: Okay. I have to talk about the past a little bit in order to get to today and I won’t be long-winded.

I grew up in Missionary Baptist Church then went to Full Gospel. That’s where I learned about my relationship with God. I didn’t learn much about it before, but once asked about the relationship with God it’s like my eyes were open to the possibilities of this beautiful connection.

That’s father. That’s just for me and for other people too. The relationship that I have is just for me and God. I could ask for whatever I want and it just blows my mind. I also believe that God lives inside of me and I’m still grateful too because I’m also I’m Christian too. So I believe in Jesus.

I need a savior as well, but you can tell that it’s like, people go through things and they may have got a family that taught them to do things a certain way and they just go along with it, I decided to do my way. According to me, thinking through and deciding that this best works best for me to, to be Christian and believe in Jesus.

And then I am also very spiritual because I really take a whole to that part of God living inside of me. So if God lives inside of me, then I got a source to everything. 

Carrie: I’m curious what your experience has been in black Christian community surrounding mental health treatment. 

Erica: I had a group that I was trying to promote that never really happened because people are not ready to have this conversation.

People are not. It’s not just black churches too. I went to some Church of Christ to do some things and try to do some things. I’ve noticed that it really doesn’t want to deal with things. It’s like an ostrich with his head in the sink. It does not want to deal with the real things that’s happening.

Carrie: Let’s pretend this is not going on. Let’s pretend people are not struggling with these big issues like anxiety and OCD. 

Erica: They don’t want to talk about them. I would think that you could find evidence in the Bible where there was somebody who was displaying the symptoms of anxiety and how they persevered or OCD and how they persevered.

One of my things that I always talk about is single motherhood. They don’t want to deal with that either. 

Carrie: It’s very prevalent. 

Erica: Yes, I did my master’s thesis on that. They didn’t want to deal with it. I never got support within the church to help do a group for single mothers.

Anyway, black church entered the price, white churches. The reason why I’m saying this is because those are the ones that I know of. I don’t know. Churches, and that’s my experience with them and it’s my personal experience. I just know that that’s one reason why I have another endeavor called trials spirituality, which if you go to Your Goal Concierge. That is my website, yourgoalconcierge.com. There’s a link that says trial spirituality. In there, it talks about small groups that people have at their homes. Actually, churches used to do this, but they have small groups at their homes about specific issues, scriptures that go along with for example, anxiety, that’s fine. So in the Bible to study who has anxiety and how they persevered through it and that group talks about it. So that’s definitely something that I am very passionate about. Let’s talk about the real things.

Carrie: We’ll put all of the information on the websites, in the show notes too, so people can click on the links.

Why do you think this is? Why do you think that people have their heads buried in the sand? Because we look at the lifetime prevalence of things like anxiety and depression and it’s high. This is not just affecting unbelievers. This is affecting believers as well. So what do you think is going on with church leadership that it’s having the ostrich mentality?

Erica: I think it’s too hard. It’s too hard of a topic and they don’t want their own stuff to come out like there’s needs to be some kind of transparency that happened in their own life. They probably have had it. Everybody has some anxiety. Everybody has a little bit of it. So that means you have to address your own stuff, This is like with counseling. That’s one reason why I decided to do my master’s in clinical mental health counseling because I needed to evaluate myself before I can even sit in the room with somebody else and I’m not sure they’re willing to evaluate themselves, but then they don’t address. There’s a lock.

Carrie: Right. Talk with me a little bit about your experience regarding racism, black issues related to counseling because I know you and I have had some conversations surrounding this. There may be some white therapists that don’t want to look at their own experiences or their own potential biases that may have a hard time seeing someone of another race or cultural group and vice versa too.

Erica: So being a black woman, it really is a conversation going on right now and I was just telling a friend of mine who is a white woman about it. It’s an everyday thing. They were talking about the protest that was happening and I said, “there’s no reason for me to get out in the streets and protest.” It’s a protest that I get up every day and not to come to the weight of the world that I feel as a black woman. Knowing that the people around me who are close to me could easily be killed at any point, just because of my skin. People don’t even think this way. Zora Neale Hurston kind of summed it up. She’s one of my role models is that my race, my race is only a part of who I am like brown coloring on top. Like it’s so much of me that doesn’t have anything to do with my race, but it’s just one of the parts, just like I am, you know, I love to giggle.

This is same day. It’s just one of the big. So everybody puts so much merit on it and seeing the differences in us when there’s so many similarities that my experience with racism is every day. Like I hear it. I feel it. I see it all the time and I can tell you many stories.  

Because of who I am. I love to have, I love creating, I have an idea and launching things, but I’ve had many circumstances where people did not want to see the merit in what I was saying and what I was doing until somebody white was interested in it. I was capitalized on in some type of way by someone who was white on a regular basis.

That’s a normal thing. There’s always circumstances where someone wants to capitalize on what I have, which I mean, as a black person, I’m never going to have as much as they know. I’m working on trying to create my own dynasty, but like, there is just historical wealth that people who are white have that I will never be able to match.

Right. Because I’m working towards that, I started from the bottom, everything that there’s always someone who tries to align with me to try to capitalize on me, even my supervisor that I had. 

Carrie: So like for example, people wanting you to do work for free or expecting that from you and so forth.

Erica: Yes work for free. That’s normal. I’m the kind of person where I get in and I jump full speed ahead into organizations and to opportunities and so I just give away so much information and I’m not paid the way that I see my counterpart being paid or the information is taken. I’m not appreciated for what I was, what I gave.

At all. Yeah. So that occurs. That’s the part that hurts me sometimes. I’ve spent some time with God on that and what God has for me, it’s for me, and whatever I gave away was what needed to be given away. 

Carrie: And do you think that people could benefit sometimes from going to a therapist of a different race?

Erica: Of course. I know I’ve been to several people who were not my race and I got something out of each one of them like beautiful stories. Whenever I was in a room with someone, I had a white male one time through my EAP program when I worked at Vanderbilt and I only met with him one time because he was like to the point-blank. He affirmed me and I was on my way. I didn’t need to go back. I was good. I just needed someone to affirm me and affirm things that I did know, because when he talked about the exhaustion that you have in between two programs, getting my bachelor’s and getting my master’s and that loll in between there, I was not trying to give myself a rest.

I was ready to go to the next thing. And he was telling me, no, this is the time to rest. It’s all right. Your life is not going to crumble. Those kinds of things. So it was great. They were a white male, but also, you know, I’ve had, I had, uh, I had a black, older woman who I needed because she was helpful and there was transference that I felt with her that I wanted and I needed because I needed a mother in my life.

I needed it and I got it from her. It was a beautiful relationship. It was very psychoanalytic. So that was the part that I was missing like she didn’t give me much of that, but I found that somewhere else. So I think that every relationship that we have in our lives and not just counselors is something that you need in your life.

You call into your life to happen for you. So just look around and you’ll find the right people for you. 

Carrie: I think we have so much to learn from each other. People that are similar to us and people that are different than us, people that look different than us. People that think different than us and people that have different backgrounds. And if we just keep our mind open to what we have to receive from that person like you were saying I think it’s a great thing. 

Unfortunately, a lot of times we get so close-fisted to our position or stance on something that we are not willing to look at what’s the other side and why does this person feel so strongly about this? Why does this person who’s out in the street protesting? Why do they feel so strongly about that? Why is this person at home who feels very passionate about these issues, but they’re not protesting and so forth? Kind of like you talked a little bit. How about, is there anything, I guess that you would want to say just as an encouragement to Christian Black women?

I know that it’s, you’re a double minority in a sense, because, you know, there’s somewhat male privilege in our society, whether we want to admit that or not men are often paid more for the same positions than women. You’re also a racial minority and a lot of times what I’ve seen in my practice is that African-American women just kind of put up with a lot of things that they don’t necessarily need to put up with.

And sometimes they need somebody to speak into that space and say, “Hey, you can set a boundary there or you don’t have to do that, or you’re doing too much, you know, let go get some help.” I don’t know, maybe I’m stealing your thunder. 

Erica: I remember, I love it that you had a board in the lobby of the suite that I worked at.

I worked out of the suite and it was, she took care of the lobby and everything, and there was a chalkboard and coffee table.

One thing I put on there was I have done enough. That’s something that I was speaking to myself, but black women and all the people that seem to be my clients, individuals that are type A people who are running and running and running to get things accomplished that they feel that they need to get accomplished in life, but they don’t give themselves rest and stuff.

Well, and so they have to decide something. They have to decide that they’ve done enough. I’ve done enough. You know, the thing is, people are going around saying, you know, I am enough, but for these people and those are my clients, the ones that made that message. I have done enough. I want to give them rest. Let’s be strategic about the next step you take.

Let’s not just go right into something else. Let’s decide that this is the next thing for me. And so I find that with black women It’s a crushing feeling of all the things that I have to do. I have to lecture with my male friend or my partner, my children. Oh, we’re doing virtual school right now with my boss.

My mind, I also feel the burden of the whole black community. Recently, we just had another blackmail murder. It just weighs down on us and it makes us want to run to do something to fix it, but I’ve done enough. I’ve done enough.

And one thing, another affirmation I would love to give is that I just recently started and it felt so good was I am at peace with the progress in my life. That made me just do a deep breath because I am. If I could just be at peace at the progress. Because you have done, I mean, just take like you get suspect amnesia and you think that you didn’t do a lot, but if you sit and think about all of these you haven’t.

You can sit and think about what you’re grateful for it makes you sit down and be strategic about the next thing that you’re going to do.

Carrie: Because progress is more important than perfection. Love that. 

All right. So at the end of every podcast, because this is called hope for anxiety and OCD, I like to ask all the guests to share a story of hope, which is a time that you received hope from God or another person in your life.

Erica: Okay. I received hope when I had a very traumatic scenario happened. I had a fear of losing a child or my child dying. That was my fear and then it happened and it broke me down and it helped me see all the people around me who were capitalizing on me taking on the responsibility of so much.

I went through a depression and I reached out to a therapist and my hope came from my daughter, looking at me. She was the one that walked me to the car in the middle of my ectopic pregnancy and put me in the car, put the seatbelt around me and said, my daughter who is seven, she put me in the car put the seat belt around me and said, “Mama it’s going to be okay.”

And I knew that came from an inner part of her like that wasn’t a seven-year-old clock. That was God telling me that this is for a reason. All of this is for a reason. You’re going to be okay and in the middle of it, I’ve received that hope. Even though I was in pain there was a piece that I had because ultimately the version of who I am now is so much greater than I ever been. I would never be at a point that I can say, I’m at peace.” I’m not with my progress or even give myself the self-care and the self-love if I had not shared all those people around me and taking all of my energy and taking all of my love and not putting in anything. So that’s my story of hope.

Carrie: Thank you for sharing that. It is really those hard times that we go through that are transformative for us the most. And we can look back and go, “Oh, wow. That was a really hard situation but if I hadn’t gone through that, I wouldn’t have reaped to this benefit over here and I can be thankful for that.”

And you never know who you’re going to meet, who may be walking through similar circumstances that you can encourage as well. And side note, Erica’s daughter is really cool too. She’s fun. She’s a fun human being. 

Thank you so much for being on the show and for talking about trying therapy and how we can find a good therapeutic fit.

Thank you for talking to me about hard sayings, about racial issues, and letting me ask you those questions as well. I think that’s awesome. 

Erica: Thank you so much. It was such an honor. Thank you so much for reaching out to me to be on here. We’ll love to come back and you want me to talk about something else or whatever.

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Everyone. I had no idea that Erica was going to speak so strongly about her experience related to mental health in the black church and remember this is just one person’s experience that we’re interviewing. It’s on my wishlist bulletin board for guests, I would love to talk with a black pastor who feels like that they really get and support mental health.

So if that’s you and you are listening or you know of a pastor, or this is your pastor and you say, “Carrie, you absolutely need to talk with them.” Please, please get them in touch with me. You can always reach us on hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you feel like our content is valuable, I really hope that you will tell a friend and say, “Hey, I found this podcast and I think you might be interested. Why don’t you give it a listen?” I’m sure you know somebody that needs a little hope. 

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam. 

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.