Tag: SpiritualGrowth

Carrie: Today on the podcast, I’m welcoming back my amazing husband. Welcome back, Steve.

Steve: Thank you. Thank you.

Carrie: It’s been a little while since you’ve been on the podcast, so you’re due again. Way back on episode 92, we had a discussion about when ministry becomes toxic. I think it was more geared towards people actually in ministry, just kind of a self-evaluation or things to watch out for as you’re working with other ministry leaders. So if people want to go back and listen to that, we talked about putting ministry leaders on pedestals, focusing on numbers, not valuing rest, and how that can be detrimental — like this idea that you have to do it all yourself. I invite you guys to go check that out if you’re interested, but today we’re talking about when it’s time to switch churches. And we’ll just say, without going into a lot of detail, that we’ve had a lot of experience with this issue. Unfortunately.

Steve: We have, and I think a lot of people have.

Carrie: Welcome, OCD Warriors, to the Christian Faith and OCD podcast where we are all about reducing shame and stigma of struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories, and replacing uncertainty with faith as you develop practical tools for greater peace. I’m Carrie Bach, Christ follower, wife, mom, and licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. I pray you are blessed by today’s episode.

We’ve kind of been on this journey ever since we got married. And I think even for me, it started before we got married — trying to find this balance of a church where we had good connections and relationships, that preached the word of God, where we could really dig in and experience change. And for me, a lot of that has been growing up in a very knowledge-based faith, and you grew up very differently. You grew up in a very Holy Spirit-emphasis community. We were trying to marry that, and almost went to opposite ends of the pendulum. It’s like you gravitated towards more of a knowledge-based church and I gravitated towards more of a Holy Spirit-based church, and somehow we were trying to figure out how to meet in the middle. What do you want to say about that?

Steve: It was a challenge for sure. Just for me, finding a church that I felt comfortable with and felt that I could learn from and grow with. And then when you get married, there are a lot of things that you really have to think about. I didn’t want just knowledge-based because there’s more to it than that for me. Yeah, we’ve had our challenges there.

Carrie: Our first church ended up moving locations and we just didn’t feel called to continue with them after that move. So that left us searching, and it was hard because I would like one, and then you would say, “Oh no, a little too much bent that direction,” and then you would like one and I would be like, “Eh, I don’t know about this.” We tried a lot of different places, and you would think in Tennessee that we would have a variety of churches, but a lot of times it’s a carbon copy of the same types of things.

Steve: Before we got married, I was very happy with where I was attending church. But that would’ve been a long drive.

Carrie: We ended up doing a lot of searching, landed at some places for a short period, then landed somewhere for a little longer, and then it was like God was stirring us — both individually and collectively — like, “Okay, we’ve been here for a little while.” We never really understood why God had us there, which was really interesting. And then we kind of felt that it was time to move forward. We ended up finding a church plant in Murfreesboro called Alinea Church. That’s where we’re hanging out now. I know in the past we had talked about being part of a church that was going to be planted in Smyrna, and that has yet to come to fruition, which was part of our move — not in total, but part of it.

Steve: Right.

Carrie: Via the internet, I looked at a lot of the reasons that people leave churches. I just kind of did a little Google search: lack of meaningful connections, deconstruction, doubts, going through scandals, obviously life changes, moving, having a child. Really getting out of the habit of going to church was a big one.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: People miss a Sunday here or there. They get involved in something. COVID.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: They start working and maybe sometimes have to work on Sundays — all kinds of different things. But when we’re evaluating, or trying to help you guys evaluate whether it’s time to switch, I wrote down some red flags. These are things that I would consider to be pretty big deals and definite reasons to leave. Whereas the yellow flags are just things to think about and evaluate within yourself. It may be the church, and it may be you. You may really need to sit in prayer with the Holy Spirit and evaluate: Where am I at right now? How does this fit in terms of this church and where they’re going? Are we moving in the same direction?

Red flag number one is there’s a lack of sound doctrine. Your pastor isn’t preaching the Bible. Maybe he’s telling a lot of personal stories. Maybe he’s quoting C.S. Lewis or other theologians, but really isn’t digging into the Bible. What do you want to say about that one?

Steve: I’m a big fan of sound doctrine. That’s a must. If I’m at a church and there’s not sound doctrine, we’ve got a problem. If it’s just happy stories, that’s nice and all, but what am I gaining from that? How am I growing? You’ve got to have something that challenges you. I would even say I like to have my toes stepped on a little bit — but I hesitate to say that because I don’t want to get our current pastor too excited and start stomping right and left on our toes. But if need be, so be it.

Carrie: Yeah. Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” We need somebody who is utilizing the word of God effectively, because otherwise it’s just their words at the end of the day, right? Versus being God’s words. Second Timothy 3:16 talks about scripture being profitable for teaching — which is obviously happening on Sunday mornings — for reproof, correction, and training. So there has to be, like you were saying, this element of it’s not just, “Hey, God loves you and he doesn’t require anything from you.” There should be this balance of “God loves you,” and because we’re transformed by that love, we want to serve him and do things for God. There may be areas of our life that we need to get in line with what he wants for us. If there is no challenge, that’s concerning.

Red flag number two is your pastor has had some type of moral failure and has not gone through any process to be restored — no accountability, no counseling. We’re talking about things like coming out with a pornography addiction, cheating on his wife, et cetera. There really needs to be some type of process for someone to go through, and oftentimes that means stepping away from the church, or at least taking time until they can get back on track.

Steve: Sure. That would be a time — I don’t think I’ve really had to deal with that with a pastor — but if I did find out there was some kind of moral failure, I would hope that he would get the help, get some sort of counseling. And I would have no problem being there for him, as long as I knew he was making attempts to get the help. Because we all fall short. It’s not a “don’t judge me” concept. It’s more of, “Hey, I want to be there for you. I want to be a brother that prays for you. I’m there with you.”

Carrie: And I think we have to remember that church discipline is biblical. A lot of times what happens in our society — in the American church anyway — is somebody in some type of leadership will have one of these things happen. And then they get mad, maybe because someone removes them from their ministry for a period of time. And then they just leave the church. We have to protect the other people in the church — the new believers, the non-believers, people that are trying to come to Christ. And we have to hold people to a standard.

Steve: Yeah. As a church, you don’t want to send out the message that that’s okay, no big deal.

Carrie: Right.

Steve: That’s not the truth. But if you’ve got a pastor who’s repentant, that’s different. But that doesn’t mean they can necessarily continue to preach. They may need to take a break. That would definitely be a reason I could see people justifiably going to another church.

Carrie: Another red flag is more about the organization and structure of the church — where the pastor, maybe in a small church, is making all the decisions. There’s a lack of accountability. I’m talking about things like he’s literally signing every check without a secondary signer, he’s in charge of all the finances, he doesn’t have accountability to a board, to elders, or to a leadership team, and he essentially has full reign to do whatever he wants. I don’t think you want that in any type of nonprofit organization. It’s just not wise business. But unfortunately in some small church or rural area contexts, it does happen. And then anybody who tries to stand against the pastor who holds the main power is kind of shunned or pushed away. That’s where things almost get a little cultish, if you want to say that.

Steve: Yeah. And I think that’s where you might have to have that difficult conversation with the pastor. And say — that would be tough — I might say, “We’re thinking about leaving, and here’s why.” I think it’s so easy to just leave without having that conversation.

Carrie: I think so many people have seen or experienced that at one point or another, and now there are a lot more safeguards in place than there used to be. But I’m not going to say that it doesn’t happen. We have to be careful about how much power we give people and how high we elevate them. Our pastors are also human beings. We talked about that in the last episode — if you put them on a huge pedestal, and something happens, you’re just devastated and it rocks your faith. That’s not healthy.

Steve: No.

Carrie: Yellow flags. Your church isn’t focused on evangelism and isn’t growing. You’re only existing for people inside the church. Eventually what happens is those churches end up dying, because they’re not growing. People get older and start passing away, and maybe their children are there, but there’s a very small remnant, and that’s about it. There are some churches in our area, unfortunately, that we pass by and we’re kind of like, “Who is going there?”

Steve: Yeah, it’s four cars in the parking lot on a Sunday morning, and you have to wonder. Well, they’re there for a purpose. But wow. I think too, in those situations, there’s almost a duty for you to step up and say, “Okay, I’ve noticed this. How can I make the change? Is there something more that I can do?”

Carrie: And I think in these yellow flag scenarios, it’s: what can the church do, and what can I do? I think before you leave a church — we can talk about this later — have you tried to be the change that you want to see? Have you invited people to church, and then maybe nobody said hello to them or tried to talk to them? Have you brought that to the leadership? “Hey, I’ve tried to bring a couple of people. I haven’t really found an environment of warmth or friendliness. It seems like a very closed system here — almost like a social club.” I visited some small churches many years ago where it was painfully obvious that we were new, and people didn’t really reach across the pew to say hello. That makes you feel very unwelcome. But then they got up front and said, “We’re going to go out visiting people.” And I’m like, you don’t need to go out visiting people — I am literally new, right here in your pew. You could just say hello.

Steve: It would be such an easy thing. I’ll save you the pain of coming to my house. Just talk to me now.

Carrie: Yeah. And I will say, there are times where a smaller church — maybe older or not reaching younger people or families — will link up with another church that is doing that and merge. That can be a really positive experience for both parties, having the wisdom of people who’ve been around longer combined with the freshness of the younger generation. What do you think about church merges?

Steve: I think you have to, as a church, be willing to step outside of that comfort zone a little and make sure you’re reaching a demographic that maybe isn’t being covered.

Carrie: Second yellow flag is you don’t have personal connections. And I would say this has to be on you to make an effort — to show up at the functions, show up at the small groups, try to get connected in the community, whatever that looks like. Try to serve. This can be really challenging in some circles.

Steve: Yeah. A lot of people, I think, just want to show up for the fun stuff —

Carrie: And not the hard stuff.

Steve: And that’s easy to do. But you’ve got to get in there and serve sometimes, just to show up and be supportive.

Carrie: I know that I’ve definitely left churches for this reason — for not having personal connections. Even when I tried to go to a small group, tried to talk with staff members, tried to figure out where my place was and how to serve. Do you feel like you’ve left churches for that reason as well in the past?

Steve: Yeah. Maybe because I didn’t fit in. I haven’t left a lot of churches as a whole — if I left, it was oftentimes because I moved. But there have been times that I just didn’t click. I had one church, years and years ago before we ever met, that moved like 30-plus miles away, and that was hard. But even at that church, my reason for leaving was more to do with the move, even though I didn’t necessarily find a lot of single people my age there. And I always said, if that’s my reason for leaving, I’ll never find a church in this area. If everyone leaves for that reason, there’ll never be a person that stays. If a couple stay, it has a chance to grow so that others who come in after you think, “Oh, okay. There’s more than just me here.” Sometimes you just have to do the uncomfortable, but I have left before for not fitting in.

Carrie: I think we have this tendency to want to find people who are exactly like us. So if we’re single, we want to find the single people. If we’re married, where are the married people? If we’re married with children, we want the married-with-children people. There’s a natural gravitation towards that. But I hope the church will intermingle some of those groups in small groups. I know that can be challenging, but I think it’s important. Like in our small group right now, we have people with younger children and people with grown children and grandchildren. It’s nice to have that mixture, because you have people who have experienced part of your life that you’re going into, who you can ask questions. Even though it can be challenging to bridge that gap at times, I think it can also be really healthy.

You and I had talked about this — if there’s a small group of all young married people, who’s mentoring them? Who’s discipling them on what it means to be married? What happens when they run into an issue?

Steve: Yeah. I think we all have to somehow work together. Again, I’ve been at a church before where I was the single one. I remember thinking, “Well, that would be me — the single ministry. The only single.” But I appreciated during those times when couples would reach out to me. “Hey, why don’t you come hang out with us?” Or a small group would say, “Hey, why don’t you join us? It doesn’t matter that you’re not married like we are. That’s fine.” That makes a big difference when you see that situation and you step outside of yourself and say, “Hey.” Because you don’t want a person to be uncomfortable. I think a lot of things go unnoticed, which is why sometimes you have to talk to leadership and say, “Hey, this is something I noticed, and I can’t be the only one.”

Carrie: Right. And I know from being involved in a singles ministry at my church in the past, there was definitely a challenge because it seemed like there was a lot geared towards married people, even from the pulpit — entire sermon series on marriage and parenting. But then you felt very isolated and alone. It didn’t really seem like when you would try to do things or promote things, it was supported. And that was a huge challenge. I did talk with some of the leadership there and try to express some of those concerns. It can just feel very isolating, and I think it causes you and me to maybe watch out more for single people in the church.

Steve: Oh, absolutely.

Carrie: Because of our own experiences in the past. And the church can facilitate connections. They can create opportunities for you to have connections, like small groups. If you’re going to a church and they have no small groups, that’s a challenge when it comes to finding those connections. Ultimately, you can’t just have those connections on Sunday morning — they have to leave the building at some level. You have to be able to go out to coffee with somebody, and that takes a certain level of bravery to say, “Hey, can we get lunch after church this Sunday?” You’ve got to be vulnerable.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: To say, “Hey, I need relationships.”

Steve: And that’s where sometimes being at a church comes down to you. A lot. I mean, yes, the church has a responsibility — preaching sound doctrine, what are they offering, how are they facilitating things. But essentially you have to ask yourself: what am I doing or not doing? What could I do differently? And I had a checklist when we’ve looked for churches before. There’s also a checklist I think that has to be had for yourself — what am I doing? How am I doing? Am I doing anything? Maybe that’s why I’m not happy. I’m not doing anything.

Carrie: And I would say another yellow flag is you’re not growing spiritually at your church. And you could not be growing spiritually for a variety of reasons. Maybe you’re not engaging in personal Bible study on your own. Maybe you’re not serving. Maybe you’re not involved in a small group or being challenged by people in your inner circle. I would say that’s not all on the church, but it may be: what’s my part in this equation to grow spiritually, and what is the church’s part? What do you want to say about that?

Steve: Yeah, definitely. You have to gauge between you and the church — what is the church’s part? Are they doing their part? It’s so easy to blame the church. Nobody’s going to blame themselves hardly. Very few people, I would say, would look at themselves and think, “I probably need to step up and volunteer more. Maybe I should teach the third graders.”

Carrie: As you’re teaching, you’re learning and you’re growing. It’s like a loop that’s happening.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: And I’ve noticed that even with the trainings that I do for ICBT. As I’m teaching and having to absorb a lot of information and then break it down in a way that’s easier for people to understand, as people ask questions, I go, “Oh, I didn’t explain that as clearly as I could have. Let me go back and try to do that another way.” It’s a nice feedback loop to have.

Steve: I know for me, I worked with youth for several years. I grew more in that time than prior to it, because they were asking me questions that I had to be honest and say, “You know, I’m not sure. Let’s look that up together.” I grew like mad during that time because I’d go home and think, “Well, I don’t really have a clue what we’re talking about here. Is this 12-year-old really way smarter than me about the Bible?” And you have to drop your pride and be willing to say, “Yeah, they kind of are. Let’s find out why.”

Carrie: You mentioned this a little bit before — when your toes aren’t stepped on, when you don’t feel like there’s a challenge to go live differently, it’s kind of like a Mr. Rogers Sunday morning. I think sometimes pastors can fall into a rut where it feels like the same exact message over and over, and you’re like, “Okay, I got that part. I need the next piece.” Feeling like you’re constantly in elementary school, so to speak, and that can be very frustrating.

Steve: I definitely think that’s true. And I think it doesn’t hurt to go meet your pastor for coffee, find out where they’re at, give them some encouragement. Maybe they need to know, “Hey, I love you, but I’m kind of tired of the Sermon on the Mount — just slightly. We have heard that for 15 Sundays in a row. It’s time to move on.” No, I don’t know if you say it like that.

Carrie: Obviously what you’re talking about depends on the size of your church and access to the pastor. But usually you have access to associate pastors or someone you can talk to.

Steve: Absolutely.

Carrie: A few points I wanted to bring up before you leave the church: Have you tried being the change that you want to see? So if you don’t feel like your church is warm and welcoming to outsiders — like we talked about — are you the person who, when you see a new person come in, goes over to them and says, “Hey, how are you? Glad you’re here. Tell us a little bit about yourself”? Are you trying to reach out and make those personal connections? If you don’t have them, are you trying to reach outside the church so that you’re not just existing for the people inside? Are you seeking to grow spiritually, even if your church still feels a little dry? Anything else you want to say about being the change you want to see in the church?

Steve: I think you have to ask yourself — am I just sitting in the stands watching?

Carrie: Yeah.

Steve: Or am I a part of the game? Not that it’s a game, but —

Carrie: The community. Am I a part of making the family better?

Steve: Exactly. What’s my role? God gave me these gifts and these talents. What am I doing with them? Am I offering any of that to the church?

Carrie: Our pastor gave this really great analogy about how when you go to a hotel, for example, you’re like, “Oh, what’s in it for me?” You’re looking for the free shampoo, or “Oh, this is some nice lotion or nice towels.” You go in there and you consume. You leave the towel on the floor because that’s what they want with the dirty towels nowadays — you leave them on the floor so they know to clean them. You’re not really worried about keeping things neat and tidy because you know you’re not going to stay. You’re coming, you’re consuming, and you’re leaving. Versus your house — hopefully you treat that differently. You’re not going to throw your towel on the floor. You’re going to want things to be somewhat organized. You’re going to want your house to be welcoming to other people. And the church — your attitude towards your church — you don’t want to just have a consumer mindset, all about “what’s in it for me?” But rather, what can I give, and how can I contribute to making things better?

Steve: When you go to the hotel, it’s not yours. When you go to the church you attend, do you treat it like yours or just a place to show up? I think that’s what you’re saying.

Carrie: My second point before you leave is: have you talked to the leadership about your concerns? Maybe it’s a yellow flag kind of thing — “Hey, how can I get more connected?” or “I feel stagnant,” or “Maybe I need more accountability,” or “There’s something missing here.” Because we do want to contribute to the church, but we also have needs. It should be a mutually beneficial relationship, because if you’re giving and not receiving what you need, then you’re going to burn out at some point in that process.

Steve: Yeah. And I think you have to do all of that in love.

Carrie: Yeah. And with a spirit of humility.

Steve: Absolutely. Hopefully you can do that in love and they’ll meet you back with love. Usually.

Carrie: And I would say for the last point: have you prayed about it, and do you feel God is leading you in a different direction than maybe the church is going?

Steve: Which, in hindsight, we probably should have made that the first point.

Carrie: Sure.

Steve: We should always pray about it first. Right? Because sometimes God does call you to go elsewhere. That’s your thing and what he’s calling you to do. So you would be wrong to stay in those cases if God’s calling you to leave. But I think he makes it very clear when it’s time to leave. Usually.

Carrie: Yeah. I would say that before we got married, God was really stirring within me to leave a particular church. I knew I needed to get away from some of the knowledge-based and more towards the Holy Spirit. I cried for two days. Literally. Yeah. Like I felt that stirring and I was so grieved about it. I was like, “God, I can’t leave my church.” I did have some good connections there. I did love the people. I just knew there was something spiritually that needed to grow within me and needed to mature. And honestly, had I not left that church, I don’t know that this podcast would exist — just because of the discussions surrounding dreaming with God that were at the next church, and that really was part of what birthed all of this.

I think God has a purpose and a plan for us and for churches as well, and hopefully the leadership is remaining moldable to what God is calling them to do. But at that point, I did go to the leadership and explain what had been happening within me, what I was experiencing, and some of the issues I had. They already knew some of those issues. It was not a shock or a surprise to them, because I had already been vocal about some things.

And then our last church before we started going to Alinea — that was probably the nicest, cleanest, most agreeable breakup with a church we’ve ever had.

Steve: Yeah.

Carrie: It wasn’t done out of hate or anger or anything like that. It was just, “We’re called to leave. I don’t know what else to say about it.”

Steve: Right.

Carrie: I guess I want to encourage some of our listeners out there, because I know there are a lot of conversations about mental health and the church — about mental illness and how your church views it. Some churches say — and they are fewer, but some say — there’s no such thing as mental illness. “This is all spiritual. You need to get right with God.” And if you know in your spirit that that’s a really unhealthy environment for you to be in, and really unhealthy messaging for you to hear, know that it’s okay to walk away from that. Or if you are in a situation where you’re being taken advantage of by leadership and there are just really unhealthy things going on — you don’t have to stay in an environment that’s not benefiting your mental health.

Final thoughts?

Steve: I think don’t take the decision lightly if you’re thinking of leaving. Unless it’s something they’re preaching that’s totally off and you know it — not as an opinion, but as something that’s not theologically sound — or unless there’s something going on in the church that’s just not okay. Give it a minute. Try to figure out: what have I done or not done that I could or couldn’t do better? What’s my role? What do I need to do first? Because it’s really easy to just have a knee-jerk reaction — “I’m out, smell you later” — and be gone. That would be so easy to do. And I’m thankful that I’ve never left a church where I just up and left. It always took a lot of prayer, time, and consideration.

Carrie: Yeah. And I know that you and I had a lot of conversations about some of these processes that we mentioned at the end — like, have we done enough? Have we vocalized enough? Have we tried to lead in a way that would be healthy? And at the end, I think it’s just really hard to explain. We had swung back to the knowledge side and just really needed more faith, more Holy Spirit, more openness to the Spirit’s leading. And that’s kind of what we feel like we’ve found. We’re very hopeful and joyful about finding a non-denominational church that has that balance of sound doctrine, knowledge, and also room and openness for the Holy Spirit.

Here we are. It’s been a process. It’s been a journey. So if you’ve been on a journey with your theology as well, my final thought would be to say: be open to that. Just be open, and prayerful, and reading your Bible, and listening to what God is telling you and where he’s leading you to go.

Steve: Amen. And it’s not just a nice place to show up to. A nice little social spot where you come in, get your happy feeling for the week, and go home. It’s got to be more than that.

Carrie: I agree. I think sometimes — like you’re saying — people will go to a certain church because their friends go there. And that’s not a wrong way to find a church, if you know your friends are also following Christ and you’re looking for a solid place. But you see people where it’s like, “Oh, well, my kid has more friends at this church over here, so we’re going to go over there” — instead of staying committed to their church. And then they end up moving around a lot.

Steve: Which was part of the fear that I know we both had — being church hoppers. We didn’t want that. And by no means were we, but that fear comes into play.

Carrie: Right.

Steve: We’re like, “Oh man, I don’t even want to be labeled as a church hopper. I’ve never been one. I don’t want to start.” That’s not my motive or goal. I think there are a lot of people who just get bored.

Carrie: They just —

Steve: Go to the next thing.

Carrie: And what’s the next best thing in town? This church over here is doing some crazy Easter egg hunt, or that church over there has a bunch of lights and sounds and flashy stuff. We just have to be careful about preferences and how they fit into the whole conversation. Yeah.

I’m so glad that Steve and I got to record this episode together. Since we hit record, new information has come to light which really just confirmed our decision to leave where we were and go to Alinea. God knew what was coming that we didn’t know. I remember sitting out on our front porch last summer and telling God, “I cannot do this big church search thing again. I’ve been there and done that. I just need you to bring us where we are supposed to be.” I knew that Steve had told me he was ready to go whenever I was, but that he was just giving me time and space to work through it and be patient however long I needed to figure that transition out.

I’m so thankful to God that he showed us where we needed to be. We went the first Sunday and we’ve continued going ever since. Trust me — I know it doesn’t always happen that way, and sometimes it takes a while to find your home church. One of the reasons I wanted to have this episode was because next week our pastor is going to be on to talk about the Holy Spirit. I hope that you’ll come back to hear that conversation. There was a lot that I got out of it personally, and I know that you will too.

Steve: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Carrie: Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.