Tag: spiritual growth

200. Two Secret Weapons to Escape Discouragement

Written by Carrie Bock on November 19, 2025. Posted in Podcast Episode.

In this heartfelt 200th episode, Carrie reflects on five years of podcasting and God’s steady faithfulness through seasons of loss, doubt, and unexpected grace. She shares two “secret weapons” for overcoming discouragement and finding renewed strength when life feels heavy.

Episode Highlights:

Honest reflections on the highs and lows of podcasting for five years
Two biblical “secret weapons” to help you escape discouragement and find hope again.
Why contentment is something we learn through experience—and how Philippians 4 teaches us to live it out.
How to stay rooted in faith when life feels uncertain or overwhelming.
Practical ways to apply mindfulness and Christian mental health tools for OCD, anxiety, and emotional burnout.
Encouragement to keep showing up in your calling, trusting that God is still at work even when you can’t see the results yet.

Episode Summary:

It’s hard to believe we’ve reached episode 200 of the Christian Faith and OCD Podcast! I’m so thankful for everyone who filled out our listener survey, shared messages, or just quietly listened and prayed along these past five years. You’re the reason I keep showing up to the mic — even when it’s been hard. There have definitely been hard seasons.

There were moments when I wanted to quit podcasting altogether — after loss, exhaustion, and so many “God, are You sure?” prayers. But every time, God reminded me: you’re still called to this. Through all the grief and uncertainty, He was gently shaping my heart with two lessons that have become my lifelines whenever discouragement tries to take over.

If you’ve ever felt like you’re spinning your wheels, or maybe the winter months just seem heavier on your heart, this episode is for you. In it, I share the two secret weapons that help me escape discouragement — tools that have carried me through seasons of doubt, grief, and even spiritual dryness.

I’ll give you a hint: they’re not quick fixes, but they are muscles you can strengthen. And when you do, they’ll change the way you walk through suffering — with peace, presence, and a deeper trust that God hasn’t gone anywhere.

Because even when the days feel dark and the journey long, there’s still light. There’s still purpose, and there’s still hope.

Tune into Episode 200 of Christian Faith and OCD to hear the full story — how God met me in discouragement, what those “secret weapons” really are, and how you can begin using them right now.

Transcript

Welcome to our 200th episode, and I wanna just say a thank you to all who completed our listener survey. This is really important to me. It just helps me so much get to know you and what your struggles are. And of course, you can always reach out and email me, contact me through our website. We do have people that do that.

And of course, I love to read your messages and your thoughts about the podcast and episodes that we’ve had. Sometimes people will respond to my emails too. That’s always welcomed. And the day this comes out, we’re gonna be announcing via email the winner of our $200 prize in honor of our 200th episode.

Now, just a short note, we’re not putting on an episode next week due to Thanksgiving. We usually skip Thanksgiving week and Christmas week around here on the podcast for sure. But I want you to stay tuned ’cause we have lots more episodes planned for you. That I’m excited about. It’s the middle of November, and let’s face it, you might be feeling a little gloomy.

The weather is just not as favorable, let’s say as warmer seasons. Depending on where you are in the world. You may be having some warmer weather than some other folks, but the reality is. We have less daylight in the winter. We’re having to get up before the sun, and that kind of does something to our circadian rhythm.

I’ve heard people say, try to get sunlight first thing in the morning when you wake up. I’m like, well, in an ideal world when it’s, I don’t know, summer or spring even, that’s quite practical. But however, getting up now to work out and go to school, not even work out, but for kids to go to school or parents to go to work, you’re having to get up before the sun.

You might feel a little bit of seasonal depression, like getting sad that it’s dark so early. But let’s face it, even if you’re not struggling with the weather particularly, you might find yourself just in this season of discouragement, maybe it just feels like nothing’s going right and you’re trying so hard, you’re spinning your wheels.

Just getting nowhere, and I wanted to put this episode out there for you because I know we all go through these seasons, and if you’ve been around on the podcast for any length of time, you have probably heard me discuss. So even if you’re not struggling with the weather in particular, you might be going through a season of discouragement.

Let’s face it, we all go through those seasons from time to time. Maybe there’s just a life tragedy that has happened that you’re wrestling with and struggling through. Maybe you’re just really down that things have not gone the way that you hoped for in life or in relationships. And that can be tough to deal with and to wade through until things start to get a little bit better, until the sun comes out, so to speak, on your circumstances or on your situations that you’re dealing with.

Now, believe it or not, this podcast is actually five years old. We only have 200 episodes because there was at least a two year span in there where we were only producing two episodes a month about every other week while my daughter was young. And if you’ve been following along, you know that there have been more than one time where I definitely wanted to throw in the towel on this whole thing. Podcasting. People talk about pod fade, which is basically where most of the podcasters, they start out really strong, but they never get past 10 episodes. And even some that go past that, they’re not gonna make it past 50 episodes because it’s tough sometimes, like speaking into the void, people think it’s gonna be easy.

Like, oh, you just plug this microphone into your computer and you start yaking and, and everything’s great, but. Life happens when you’re podcasting. Of course, and I know that I definitely wanted to give up when both my parents died in just a six month span while my husband went on disability and we had a baby.

Just so much happened during that period, multiple trips back and forth to Florida to see family. That’s just one of those life periods that you look back on and you don’t even know how you made it. Like it was just God. That’s the only thing that I can say is like, God sustained us through that whole time.

I’m so happy that he did and just so thankful. We, interestingly enough, what kept me going during that period was I had already signed up to exhibit for the podcast at the American Association of Christian Counselors. That was in 2023, which was probably at that time, about six to eight months after my father had passed away.

That was probably about five months after my father had passed away, and I thought, well, I can’t give up on this podcast now because I’ve already paid all this money to go exhibit it at this Christian counseling conference. And there’s gonna be a lot of people there that could potentially benefit from this.

Interestingly, and I don’t know if this person is still listening or hanging around on our email list, but someone came up to me and asked me about the different manifestations of OCD at the conference when I was in the exhibitor hall. I didn’t think a ton about it, but I said, oh, you know, there’s these different types of things people can obsess about.

Here’s some examples of each of the different categories. Here’s some examples of compulsions. I’m pretty sure the lady like touched my arm or something and she said, Kiri, I just want you to know that what you have shared with me is absolutely life changing. And I was like, wow, okay. And that’s something that really sticks out to me.

I don’t know if that was the moment, maybe that she realized that she was dealing with OCD. I don’t know if she realized maybe that one of her family members or a child is possibly having so of these symptoms. But I just really see how through all of the hard times, like there’s a purpose and there’s a reason and there’s a calling that I’m here.

And I think that’s something that I’ve always gone back to. Difficult times is like, God called me to this work and this ministry, and the day that God says, I don’t want you to do this anymore. That’s a different story. I don’t perceive that happening at this point in time, just because the need is so great out there for these kind of messages of hope, encouragement to the Christian OCD community, and I don’t see a ton of people putting them out.

There are a few people here and there that are speaking into this space, but it’s just more rare in general. Another time I. I wanted to give up. I shared previously, probably on our rebrand episode, that had to do with just feeling like the podcast wasn’t growing and it was actually declining, and there was some kind of shift in the way that Apple Podcasts did things that made it look like it was declining, or actually it’s really the other way.

We had inflated numbers previously. But all of that aside to say that I definitely hit a breaking point where I felt like, why am I still doing this? It’s not producing the fruit, really, that I was hoping that it would. And God really led me on that process of rebrand to go from focusing on anxiety and OCD to specifically focusing on OCD.

And that is probably the best thing that ever could have happened to this podcast, to my business. And I guess all that to say, I didn’t really plan to say most of this to be honest with you. I had a few notes on a couple things, but the reason I’m sharing this on a message on discouragement is that this has been a five-year journey.

And obviously I can look back right now and see the hard points. However, when you’re in the midst of it, it feels like it’s never ending. Some of you feel this way with OCD, like it’s never ending. It’s gonna last forever. It’s gonna be terrible, horrible, awful the whole time, and I really want you to challenge that.

That doesn’t have to be the story and typically is not people’s story. Typically, you’re not in a period of intense suffering for a long, long time. There definitely may be months or even sometimes years of suffering with something, but it’s not at the same level of intensity. You learn to manage it or you learn to deal with it differently, or God gives you more strength.

God gives you more grace to get through it. But what I’ve learned through the process is. So much of this is just about showing up and doing what you believe God has called you to do and what he is asking you to do at this point of obedience right now. And that may really hit some of you like, okay, what is it that I have felt like God has been wanting me to do?

And I’ve just kind of stalled out like, oh yeah, that might be nice. Well, I could do that, but I’m not really sure. But like, you know, the Holy Spirit’s been speaking to you that you need to do the thing, and so I just encourage you to do the thing, whatever that is, because there’s blessings on the other side of obedience, even though definitely it’s not always easy.

So I wanna give you today two secret weapons that I have found to escape discouragement. I want you to think of these things as muscles. They’re like muscles. The more that you engage with them, they can be developed, they can be strengthened. And the first is contentment. So many of us are familiar with Philippians War 13, right?

I can do all things through him. His strengthens me. And we may quote that verse in all kinds of contexts. However, do you know what verses 11 and 12 say that are right before that where Paul says, I’ve learned in whatever situation I am to be content, I know how to be brought low. I know how to abound in any and every circumstance.

I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him. He strengthens me. Paul says he has learned, that’s a really interesting word there, right? Because. I think a lot of people perceive contentment as, oh, it’s like this feeling and you just have it somehow.

Like, I don’t know, it just magically appears. But Paul says he’s learned and that lesson probably didn’t come easy for him. I know for me in my own life, the lesson of contentment has not come easy and probably I really started to learn this. During my divorce process from my first husband way back in 2015, I used to be a very discontent person.

I was definitely focused on a lot of things that I didn’t have. Oh, I wish I had this, or I wish I made more money or lived in this kind of place, or I wish I had this type of like professional accomplishment would become jealous of other people and all of that. It’s just a lesson that I’ve had to learn.

Over time and through various situations. And when my first husband left, he took half the furniture, which of course is fair. And I’m not saying that like he left me without furniture. Don’t hear it that way. We had agreed upon like what he was gonna take, what he was gonna leave. The things were pretty amicable overall.

And I remember looking out into the living room. I got home from work one day and I had. Like a love seat in there and maybe an end table. My roommate at the time had like positioned it diagonally to take up somehow more space in the room. Like I don’t remember if she put something on the end table. I don’t even remember if the end table was mine or hers, but maybe she put some type of like base or fake plant on it.

And this was her way of being really kind. And she was trying to make it kind of sort of look nice in there, but there was no way really to hide like, Hey, you visibly have no furniture. And now not only that, like you don’t have a dining room table where you can sit and eat. So over time we found things on Facebook marketplace and rented a little truck from Home Depot to go pick up this used furniture.

My friends were really gracious. I found this couch. I don’t remember if I paid like 50 bucks for it or if it was free. I don’t remember. But my poor friends, we had all these stairs in the house and they trucked this really heavy couch upstairs. They were just like huffing and puffing and panting by the time they got done with it.

And I felt so bad. I was like, oh my. But thank you for bringing this couch up here. I know it was a lot and super heavy. It was one of those like old heavy duty, like solidly built couches, super comfy. Kind of an eyesore. You know, one of those couches, he was like, it’s a little bit of an eyesore, but it’s actually really comfortable.

God bless me with some used furniture, and was able to find people that could help me carry it up and put it in over time. But it was just this sense of recognizing like, whoa, life is really, really different. And here’s a picture, like, welcome to a picture of how your life has changed and you don’t have a choice in that situation, it’s just like, okay, well.

Here we are. Back when we had foster children, like y’all are just hearing half the life story. If you’re new to the podcast, I’m like, here we go. I had a foster child one time and he had stolen something from one of our friends at church and his justification for stealing, it was interesting. He was like, well, he just has so much stuff and so it’s not a big deal if I take this.

And of course like after we go through, the ceiling is wrong, and this is why conversation. I said to him, I was like, look, here’s the thing you’ve gotta understand in life, there’s always going to be people that have more than you. That’s just the reality. But it’s also the reality that there’s always gonna be people who have less than you.

And so it’s really important for us to be content and to be thankful for what we have. That’s the place that we wanna be in. And I, I think that’s a good reminder for all of us when we look at our situation, and my husband will say that quite a bit. Yes, I have a disease. Yes, there’s a lot going on with my health, but there are people that are in a bed and can’t walk, or there are people in a wheelchair that can’t walk.

And so just trying to be content with where you’re at and the blessings that you have that God has given to you. First Timothy six through eight. But godliness with contentment is great gain for, we brought nothing into the world and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing with these, we will be content.

I think we struggle so much with contentment in America because we’re constantly bombarded with advertising where people are telling us like, Hey. You don’t have this thing, and if you would just go get this thing, somehow your life is going to be astronomically better, and it’s just gonna be amazing.

And then you’re gonna feel really good. You’re gonna feel good about yourself and life. We know that things ultimately don’t make us happy. They may make us happy for a short period, like we get that little burst of excitement and this is how some people get into like shopping, addictions and things like that, right?

It’s like, oh, here’s a little bit of an excitement, and like my brain’s firing off Happy Chemical. But then I get the thing and I may or may not use it, it may provide a little bit of joy for a small period and then we’re done with it. And it’s funny ’cause it doesn’t really matter, I think like what the cost of the item is.

You can get really excited over like a $2 yard sale item and think, oh yeah, this is great. It’s only $2 and I’m totally gonna try this out and use it. And then you bring it home and you don’t use it and next thing you know it ends up in your yard sale next year. It’s funny how those things happen. I really don’t like clutter and try to be more on the minimalistic side, so I’m pretty careful about what I bring in the house, and if I don’t think I’m gonna use it than I say, man, that’s nice, but I don’t think I’ll actually use it and try to leave it there if I don’t end up using it.

Or maybe I used it a lot in the past and don’t need it anymore, then I try to get rid of it, give it away, or something of that nature. Now our second secret weapon goes along with contentment, and that is gratitude. So gratitude really helps us get into a different head space. Not only are we told to be thankful in scripture, but I’ll talk with you a little bit about their science that backs this up, that when we are grateful, it helps us shift off of what we don’t have or what’s not going well.

To what we do have and to what is going well in our lives, even in the difficult times. One Thessalonians five 18 tells us to give thanks in all circumstances. Oh, ouch. That’s hard for This is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. All circumstances do I have to be thankful even when I don’t get that promotion at work, and that could be a blessing.

You may not know what God is saving us from sometimes do I have to be thankful when I get that diagnosis of something that I didn’t see coming? Do I have to be thankful when I have a child who’s rebelling or having behavior problems? And then that really brings us back to James one, considerate, pure joy.

Whenever you face trials of many kinds, because we know that God is at work in these hardships, that God is shaping the character of other people, gratitude, being thankful. It doesn’t mean that we’re not paying attention to the suffering or pretending like it’s not there. You’re faithful in the midst of what I’m going through.

Like you are still good. That can be super hard to hold onto at times. I know for me, that was definitely something that was challenging for me to hold onto in the hard times. Like, okay, God, this is a really, really bad situation, but I’m supposed to believe that you’re so good in the midst of this. Like even though, hey, we struggle so much with God’s sovereignty, it’s like, well, why did you allow X, Y, Z to happen?

I can’t answer those questions for you ’cause I wish I could answer them in my own life, right? Like, God, why’d you allow this? Or why’d you allow that? But at the same time, I know that God sees much more than I can see, like my viewpoint, my VantagePoint on this. Life in this world is very, very limited. God sees everything past, present, and future, and he exists outside of time.

It’s like he knows how all of these things are gonna work, and they’re gonna work out for his good and his glory, and that’s ultimately what’s most important. I’ve had to learn to be intentionally thankful in those challenging times, and I can remember just driving in my car and being really thankful for my car, being thankful for seeing a sunrise, being thankful for just little glimpses of God’s blessings.

This is something that you struggle with. If you struggle with contentment and you struggle with gratitude, really encourage you maybe to start writing some of these things down maybe in the morning or before you go to bed. Just jot a couple notes down. You can even put it in a planner. I’ve done that in the past, just writing, and a lot of times what I would do is write something specific about that day, like a specific area where I saw God working.

Or a specific thing that I was thankful for regarding that particular day. I think that can make a difference because a lot of times we just wanna be very global in our Thanksgivings, like, oh yeah, I’m thankful for my family and I’m thankful for my, that I have a place to live. I mean, all of those things are good.

But I just think it helps your brain and your relationship with God if you’re able to get much more specific about what particularly it is that you’re thankful for. Now, let’s look at the science. Regular gratitude practice increases activity in the brain, reward centers boost serotonin and dopamine levels.

Studies show that gratitude journaling for even two weeks can significantly lower depressive symptoms and increase optimism. I remember working with somebody one time and was really trying to get her to see if she could come up with any. Positives about her circumstance and literally nothing. Actually, I’ve worked with a couple people like that and I have found probably some of the most challenging to work with because there’s always some type of something positive here, some type of silver lining, even if it’s just like this isn’t gonna last forever.

Or, or I’m getting closer to God through this. I’m getting closer to relationships with others through the situation. Learning to be mindfulness can lower cortisol a stress hormone and just help with nervous system regulation, which I talk about mindfulness quite a bit because I think it can be. Super helpful for OCD, allowing you to slow down your thought process, become more aware of what’s happening to you internally, and that is what I believe is a crucial component in terms of OCD treatment and recovery, regardless of what route you go down, if you go down a exposure and response prevention route, I mean, you have to.

Be aware of your triggers. You have to be aware of what’s OCD and what’s not OCD. If you’re doing ICBT, I have a self-help course on that. But if you’re doing ICBT, you have to really look at the thought process and the sequence of thoughts that are leading up to engaging in a compulsion. And it can be hard to trace that backwards and slow down.

But over time people learn how to do that and they recognize which types of thoughts and the sequence of thoughts, particularly the reasoning process and the order is important. That leads to someone feeling like, oh, this is urgent. I’ve gotta do this. I’ve gotta engage in this compulsion, like it has to happen in order for me to be okay somehow.

I’ve talked about this before as well, but it’s been a little while. Mindfulness can help us reduce secondary suffering. So primary suffering would be the intrusive thoughts themselves. Actual physical pain. Mindfulness is really great for chronic pain. That would be a primary suffering. That’s something that we can’t necessarily intervene on or doing anything about right away.

Secondary suffering is taking you out of the present moment. So it’s those thoughts like, oh gosh, how long am I gonna have to deal with this? I can’t believe I’ve been going through this for so long. What if this lasts forever? I’m just never gonna get through this. I’m never gonna get better. All of that secondary suffering, if you’re able to bring in mindfulness and recognize like, okay, what’s actually happening right now?

Is usually not as bad as what we have like forecasted into the future or what we’re projecting. The meaning that we’re making about this suffering is sometimes more painful than the actual suffering itself, if that makes sense. And so mindfulness allows us to hone back on all the present moment what’s actually happening here that can really reduce that secondary suffering.

In closing, I want you to think about what does this look like for you? What does contentment and gratitude, those working together, how can you cultivate this practice more in your life that when you find yourself becoming discontent about something. To say, you know what? I’m actually really grateful for what I do have actually really grateful for this.

Over here, I’m going to intentionally choose not to focus on what I don’t have so that I can intentionally focus on what I do have. Know that your season of discouragement, if you’re going through that at all, know that doesn’t have to last forever. That there will come a time where the sun will shine again, where things get a little bit better, where God will open up some different doors for you.

It may be tough in the midst of that growth process. We come out on the other side of suffering, hopefully a different person, a person that is more aligned with Christ and who he wants us to be. More connected to other people in our life who, whether those are people that God wants us to love or serve more deeply, um, or just people that we need to develop more intimate relationships with.

I strongly believe that there is hope for your situation regardless of what you’re going through. And the reason for that is because I have seen people who felt really, really stuck, whether it was stuck in trauma, stuck in OCD, stuck in difficult situations, who were able to move through that. Get the help, support, treatment, whatever it is, they need to come out a different person on the other side, and if there’s any way that I can support you in that process, I would love to do that.

I am currently booking intensive sessions into 2026. Just had some amazing results with those lately. And if that’s something that you think, Hey, I just need to get away for a few days from all my environmental triggers and really focus in, hone in on my trauma, then I would love to support you through that.

You can reach out via the contact page at carriebock.com.

113. From Suicidal to Thriving, a Personal Story with Sara Nicole Tynan

Written by Carrie Bock on February 14, 2024. Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode.

In this week’s episode, Carrie interviews Sara Tynan, author and wellness educator, about her journey from mental health struggles to wellness, and how her experiences inspired her to help others.

Episode Highlights:

Sara’s transformation from battling mental health issues to finding wellness with God’s help.
How spiritual, physical, and mental health contributed to Sara’s recovery.
The role of scripture affirmations in Sara’s life and how she teaches others to use them for mental wellness and overcoming insecurities.
The inspiration behind Sara’s book “So That” and her role as a wellness educator.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to episode 113 of Christian Faith and OCD! I’m thrilled to feature Sara Tynan, the author of So That and a dedicated wellness educator. Sara’s inspiring journey from struggling with mental health and substance abuse to finding fulfillment and healing is a testament to the power of faith and perseverance.

Sara’s path to wellness wasn’t immediate; it involved overcoming significant challenges, including mental health issues and substance abuse. Her turning point came during a college crisis, where she hit rock bottom, prompting a decision to make drastic life changes. With the support of loved ones and a commitment to healthier habits, Sara moved away from medications and substance use, eventually finding peace and stability.

Her latest project, the podcast “Fulfilled,” is a continuation of her mission to share tools and insights for a fulfilling life, grounded in spiritual growth and God’s promises. Sara emphasizes the importance of scriptural affirmations, like Philippians 4:13, in transforming negative thought patterns and aligning one’s mindset with Biblical truth.

Sara’s story is a powerful reminder of the strength that faith and practical changes can bring in overcoming life’s challenges.

95. Healthier Theology of Healing with Pastor Mark Smith

Written by Carrie Bock on May 24, 2023. Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 95. Healthier Theology of Healing with Pastor Mark Smith

We are privileged to have Pastor Mark Smith from Refuge Church on the show today to discuss the topic of healthier theology surrounding healing and suffering.

Episode Highlights:

Why God doesn’t heal everyone who prays for healing
The struggle between relying on God’s control and the reality of coping with pain and suffering in this world.
Pastor Mark’s personal experiences about how he has learned to depend on God through difficult times.
The need to address mental health and counseling in the church and finding a healthy understanding of emotional health and spiritual health.
How Christianity is unique in its approach to suffering and death.

Scripture verses mentioned in this episode:

Mark 9:14-29 – Jesus Heals a Boy Possessed by an Impure Spirit
Luke 9:46-47
John 14:2-3
1 Timothy 6:5
John 1:14
Isaiah 53:5

Summary:

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, Episode 95. Today, I’m joined by Pastor Mark Smith from Refuge Church in Nashville, a bilingual congregation where Pastor Mark preaches in both English and Spanish. Steve, my husband, actually attended this church before we got married, and while we now go to a church closer to home, we loved visiting Refuge, especially during COVID when my regular church was closed.

In this episode, we revisit an important topic: healing. It’s something that keeps coming up in my work as a therapist and on the podcast. Many people ask, “If God can heal, why am I still struggling with anxiety or OCD?” We dive into the deeper meaning of prayer and how it’s not just about getting what we want, but connecting with God. Pastor Mark shares insights on the spiritual tension between trusting God’s sovereignty and grappling with pain. Together, we explore how God’s plans often unfold behind the scenes, even when we can’t immediately see the results.

If you’ve ever wondered why healing doesn’t always come in the way or timing we expect, this conversation is for you. Don’t miss the rich discussion on how suffering can deepen our relationship with God and reveal His glory in unexpected ways. Tune in now!

Explore Related Episode:

2. Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

Transcript

Welcome to Christian and OCD episode 95. Today on the show I have with me Pastor Mark Smith with Refuge Church in Nashville, which is a bilingual congregation and Pastor Mark preaches in English and Spanish, which is pretty cool. This was a church that Steve was going to prior to us getting together and getting married. Since you guys are so far away from us, not too far, but you’re far enough that it’s hard to get there. We made the decision to go closer to home, but enjoyed coming quite a bit during Covid, while the church I was attending was shut down because they were meeting in a school. So it was a joy to be with you guys during that time.

We, on the podcast, had a very early episode on Unanswered Prayers for Healing. One of the reasons I wanted to do that episode was because so many people were coming to me and saying, I’m praying and my anxiety’s not going away. I don’t understand why God isn’t healing me. But that’s a great interview if people wanna go back and listen to it.

We talk about the value of prayer more than just kind of getting what we want. It’s about our connection with God and communicating with him. God’s always working behind the scenes and a lot of times we don’t know what he’s doing or how he’s using these situations in our lives. And I wanna bring up this topic of healing back around.

I don’t know Pastor Mark if pastors do this, but as a podcaster and as a therapist, I’ll see themes of things that keep coming back around, coming back around. And I’m like, maybe we needed to talk about that a little bit more because it seems to be something like God’s bringing up over and over again. Do you find that’s true?

Pastor Mark: Oh, without a doubt. There are moments when, for example, for years I felt like I was butting up my head against the same. Issues over and over again, and I felt like that was part of the Lord telling me that, we needed to address it as a faith family whether it was mental health issues or marriage issues, relationship stuff, or whatever. There are themes that come up and with every new kind of season in life, things change and I feel like it’s really important for us to be sensitive enough to it to follow the Holy Spirit and say we need to deal with this.

Carrie: One of the themes that keep coming back around for me, whether it’s in counseling or people that contact our podcast, is, okay, we understand from reading the Bible that there were people that they just, they came up and they touched Jesus and they were healed, or Jesus even spoke a word and said, okay, go home. This person is healed. They’re no longer sick. From our self-centred view, I’m gonna call it that. We look at it and we say, okay, God, you could heal me. You could take this away. Why am I still suffering with this? And so if God’s all-powerful and he can just heal me at any point.

Why doesn’t that happen then? People fill in answers. May or other people sometimes will fill in answers for them if they’re talking to people. Maybe you’re not praying enough, maybe you’re not praying the right way. Maybe you’re not studying your Bible enough. What are your thoughts on this?

Pastor Mark: I was telling a few people we were doing this podcast and my only fear in doing this is this is a big issue. And it’s not an easy one. I will tell you even among what people would consider maybe the healthiest of concepts of theology or spirituality, there is a healthy tension between trusting in the sovereignty and the grace and the beauty of God and dealing with pain and suffering on this side of eternity.

How do we deal with that? You’re absolutely right. It’s the most natural thing to look in the scriptures and say, man, every time Jesus turns around, he’s healing someone. He’s helping someone. Why doesn’t he do that for me, I think there are a few things, as I was kind of walking through some of this, there were a few things that I thought were helpful.

One, I asked the Lord, and I said, God, there’s so many scriptures of healing in the scriptures. Is there one place that I can go that I think would be helpful to your listeners today? One of the things that I found was the story of the healing of, and if you remember the boy with the unclean spirit in Mark nine.

Now, I will say this also, there’s very little distinction in the scriptures, especially New Testament between physical illness and spiritual sickness. Sometimes Jesus says, get up. You’re mad and walk. Sometimes he says, your sins are forgiven, and the Bible doesn’t give us a clear picture. Sometimes it’s both.

Sometimes they may be dealing with mental illness or demonic depression, or a combination of the two. I think it’s really important to understand that this is not a simplistic issue at all. That story in Mark chapter two. Jesus and the disciples are coming out of this mountain of transfiguration where it’s been an amazing scene and they want to build these huts and tents and like camp out there. God says, no, I’m no time out. You’re just supposed to experience this and see it for what it is. And then they come back to reality. And the reality is that the rest of the disciples, crowds, and religious leaders are all in this big major debate over the disciples not being able to heal this boy. Now there are some confusing things I would love to help explain because there’s a lot of, I think, misunderstanding about that scripture. Once again, the argument is that disciples can’t heal him and Jesus calls He, it’s kind of a blanket statement to everybody, but he calls them a faithless generation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re faithless because they cannot heal the boy.

Faithlessness comes because they want to use Jesus as a means to an end. You know what I’m saying? It’s about, it’s kind of a results faith. Mm-hmm. They must not have faith because they don’t see any results. And I know we’ve seen that with people suffering through anxiety or OCD, that they’re like, I’m praying this, but I’m not getting the results that I’m looking for. So there’s either something wrong with the Lord or something wrong with me. Right.

Carrie: So many Christians that have memorized scriptures on God’s not giving me a spirit of fear, pray, and peace of God will pass all understanding. I mean, they know these verses inside and out, taking every thought captive, and they are praying and they are seeking the Lord and they’re still in this wrestling place of suffering.

I think. We miss the big picture though, like what you were saying about what Jesus was here to do and what he’s here to accomplish, and it’s not about me and my individualistic theology. I find it interesting, and I’ve shared this with clients as well in the past, in the beginning of Mark chapter one, verses 29 through 39.

Jesus is healing many people. Essentially he sneaks away to go be with God and the disciples are like, “Wait a minute. Everybody at the house is looking for you. What are you doing?” He doesn’t go back to the house and heal the people. He just moves on. I thought that just kind of shows Jesus’ mission, not that he was not compassionate towards these people because obviously, he healed many people, but he didn’t show up on earth to be a healer. That’s something that I think we’ve gotten our theology of healing a little bit confused on, especially in certain circles.

Pastor Mark: Without a doubt. It’s interesting that Jesus, often we see, especially in the gospels, that Jesus shows his power and his strength or his position as the Messiah. But there’s a testimony part of that.

In fact, in Mark chapter nine-story, the parents finally come up to them and it’s clear that they’re not even believers. They don’t even, they, they said, Lord, help us in our unbelief. And Jesus waits to heal the boy. Because he wants to make it a clear testimony to them, so it’s, and though he does have compassion for the kid, he wants to help him, but Jesus is seeing a bigger picture that sometimes when I’m in the middle of my problems or my suffering or my issues, it’s hard for me to see the bigger picture that God may have that I can’t see.

Carrie: Yes, and I was thinking too, as you were talking about that, how many different types of healing stories there are in the New Testament, like you said, some of them are clearly more of a physical nature. Get up your mat and walk and other ones. Say like the man that was lowered down into the house that actually says, like his friend’s faith that brought him there were responsible. Another one I was thinking about was the man who was born blind. Mm-hmm. And they asked who sinned that this man was born blind. Really it was for the glory of God to be revealed. In that situation, and oftentimes we don’t realize how God’s glory can be revealed even in the myths of our own suffering experiences.

Pastor Mark: One of the things I think through my own struggles and issues that I’ve had, one of the things that I’ve learned over the years is how my personal suffering, maybe Jesus hasn’t taken away yet, or maybe I’m still walking through that Dark Valley. It causes us to kind of pay attention to our soul care, to our art. And obviously, the go-to for the disciples in that story you were talking about was blame, right? Yeah. Assigning blame. And we see that in mental health issues all the time. Why is this happening? Is it because of my parents? Is it because something’s wrong with me? Do I not have enough faith? We play all these blame games when if we can get to a healthy point, I believe when we can pay attention to our heart. And our soul, and listen, truly listen, and I’m not trying to find the silver lining and everything. That’s not what this is about. But I do think it’s an opportunity to enlarge our soul through paying attention during that suffering or that reprocess.

Carrie: It’s interesting just working with people, finding what I call the gift of anxiety, the gift of OCD or even trauma. And people will tell me, I really have become a more compassionate person because of these experiences that I’ve had, or it’s caused me to seek God even more than I would have before. It caused me to get to a place of salvation because of these things that I’ve been through and the depths of the disparity.

I know that there’s many things that we’re not gonna understand, probably this side of heaven. And I think if our lives were easy and perfect on earth, there might be that lack of longing for heaven. What are your thoughts on that? Like if we became a Christian and God said, okay, I’m gonna make your life easier.

You’re not gonna have the same types of physical pain and suffering that other people have. I wonder if we would have as much longing for heaven

Pastor Mark: or a depth of compassion on this side of it either. But yeah, I agree. We are promised is that God is preparing us a place. I think that that as much of a physical space, I think a, an emotional space where there is true peace and true freedom, but the longing to get there and the journey that we have to get there along the way.

You know, you mentioned someone that may have come out of anxiety or is still dealing with it, but they’re able to relate to somebody else that’s walking through the same thing and there’s a brotherhood and a sisterhood. That takes place with that. I was talking to a group last week. They were actually talking about how she was a breast cancer survivor, and when she was going through that process, she would never have wished that upon herself or, and not even thanking God necessarily for that.

On the other side of that, the sisterhood that she has with other cancer survivors, she wouldn’t give up on anything. We think about the suffering that you and I walk through that other friends and family walk through, and the longing and the desperate desire to be at full peace with the Lord forever in eternity. That’s an amazing thing to look forward to.

Carrie: Yes. I know there are definitely been times when I can look back for things I’ve prayed for and I’m like, oh, I’m so glad God didn’t answer that. Like, yeah, that was not what I needed. Yeah, it was what I wanted maybe and what I thought I needed, but it wasn’t actually. What’s best for me I think about my daughter a lot because she’s one. I mean, if you let her do her own devices though, like she need cat food and all kinds of things and put stuff in her mouth. She wants to mess with the carbon monoxide alarm. There are all these things and she doesn’t understand like, no, like you can’t stick your finger in the socket. Like that’s not appropriate.

My job is to keep you alive. I think sometimes we’re that childlike in our experience. We think we know more. Like she thinks like, oh, I could just grab this. I can do that, it’s fine, but there are so many things that we have no idea what is coming around the bend in our own personal lives or professional lives.

Sometimes God doesn’t give us things because we’re not ready for them or because he is wanting to do something greater down the road, we’re not at the end of the story till we get to heaven. And so that piece is encouraging to me that God’s always continuing to work in our lives regardless of what suffering we’re experiencing.

This is more of a personal question, but how have you seen some of this play out in your own life, just kind of as you’ve wrestled through struggles of why has God allowed me to go through certain things?

Pastor Mark: Well, for example, some know that we served on the mission field in Guatemala for, lived there for nearly five years. We lost two pregnancies while we were there and there was a lot of spiritual baggage for us. I really question, Lord, we’re here because we’re serving you. We’re here because we’ve sacrificed. We sold our cars, and our home. We moved over here and why is this happening to us? We’re trying.

I’ve walked through trying to blame and trying to figure out, but I will tell you the depth of pain does not match the depth of grace and love that I’ve also experienced through some of that difficulty. Uh, and I know, uh, during, right at the height of Covid, uh, about two years ago between what was going on with the isolation and just in church life and homes and we were all quarantining and, and that kind of stuff. Between that and some isolation that I had with some family members, I developed panic attacks about two years ago. And ended up having to go into counseling for about six months or so to get to a healthy point again in my life. I really struggled with the Lord on why I was having to go through that.

Why did I feel like I was having a heart attack every time I went out on my bike and I went up this certain hill? All of a sudden I couldn’t breathe and I thought I was gonna pass out. I went through all the medical studies and everything and realized it was all related to my emotional health and the lack of control that I felt.

When I couldn’t change the situation, there was nothing I could do. Absolutely nothing that I could do. Now, I won’t say I’m fully recovered. I still deal with anxiety and there are still moments where I’ve been in tune to my heart enough to know, okay, I’m binging on this TV program because I’m avoiding something that I need to deal with or I’m falling into, or I’m eating too much because of this, or whatever.

This issue of control, God has really opened up a new window of spiritual understanding and trust in him that the lie was that I was controlled in control to begin with. Yes, true. Those are a few things that I’ve learned just through my own personal experience.

Carrie: I think for me, one of the things, and I talked about this on my first episode, really, is I had this kind of formulaic version of God and it’s like a vending machine.

If I put in what I’m supposed to, then I’m gonna get out. You’re gonna bless me like things are gonna go well. And then tragedy strikes and you realize, okay, well this is completely outta my control and it doesn’t matter that I’m going to church every Sunday, and it doesn’t matter that I’m trying to serve the Lord and do these different things.

Sometimes things happen in our lives and tragedy strikes and painful things happen, but it took me on a journey really of who God is. That was really the question. It’s like, okay, who are you? Are you really good and are you really kind? And how are you gonna show up in this season? He did and definitely changed so much of my view of God.

I think everything that I go through now has led me to a deeper place of trust, what we’ve been going through with Steve’s SCA, and I’ve talked about that on the podcast. I just remember like when we first got that diagnosis, just every day like. I didn’t understand what was going on. We didn’t have a clear picture of what the future was gonna look like, and I just got up every morning.

I said, okay, God, I trust you. I trust you. I don’t know what’s gonna happen, but I trust you, and God’s just been faithful and he’s been really good to us through this process. He definitely blessed us in many ways that were unexpected. I think we have this, like you were talking about before, this results in mentality about our spirituality.

Sometimes if I put in this effort, it should be successful, or if I do this, then God should do that. And I’ve been reading the book of Isaiah, which is super challenging. I’m just gonna say that it’s super challenging because basically, God told Isaiah to go preach to some people that weren’t gonna listen to him till the city fell down.

That’s a very condensed version, and I’m like, oh, that’s like a very far cry from American Christianity, right? I’m just kind of like cut to the core of, okay, God. So there may be some assignments that I have that don’t actually work out into this perfect, amazing success, and that’s okay. You’re still gonna be with me through that process, and I still need to follow through and do what God’s asked me to do.

Pastor Mark: I love what you said about that through some difficult or challenging times, it caused you to think about who God is and help maybe redefining that or understanding a little bit more about that. I think that’s a healthier approach than to say, what’s wrong with my faith right now? Or that results base of maybe I’m not praying enough and, certainly there are spiritual disciplines that we should all have, that ought to connect us to God in different ways. And sometimes our anxiety and our O C D or whatever can reveal some pax in the armor that maybe we need to work harder at meditation or work harder at Bible memorization or going on a spiritual retreat. I think anything that reveals more soul care for us personally is a healthy approach.

Often I find God expanding my understanding just of who he is and what his character is about. If I can share it real quick, I was just reading this the other day, but John Piper, who’s one of my favorite preachers, had an analogy between approaching God as a running spring or as a watering trough. He said, “You know, if you approach the Lord as this endless flowing stream, that’s always replenishing. That’s always there. That’s an amazing thing”. But he said, “Oftentimes we approach God like a watering trough, that we have to refill it. I have to work towards that. I have to perform, and I’m so grateful to the Lord for that.

He will not be confined by our limited understanding of that. Oftentimes I feel like we always want to put God in this box. And if we think of God just in those terms, then it’s always about me. It’s always about do I have enough faith. Am I performing enough? This kind of stuff, but if God is truly an eternal source of living water for us.

The only thing that we can do to honor that is to bow down and drink from it. We often think about offering God our best, but sometimes we need to offer God our thirst, our weakness. He says, when in your weakness I will be made strong. He says, “The prosperity gospel cannot explain what we just talked about.” That theology cannot deal with me coming to the Lord in my weakness finding strength in him and finding understanding that element of his character.

Carrie: That’s so good. True. This episode is not coming out anywhere near Christmas, but I feel like Christmas is so important to this conversation.

Just a sense of God becoming human. Jesus coming down to the earth and being with us in the midst of our struggles, that when God doesn’t take your suffering away, that he is always there with you in the midst of that. What are your thoughts on that?

Pastor Mark: Once again throwing me the softballs, but one of the beautiful things about Christianity and our faith, it’s that scripture from John chapter one where it says the word was made flesh and literally made his dwelling among us.

That means several things. We can talk about his divinity and his humanity and so many other things we can talk about that he is our high priest that understands and empathizes with everything that we’re going through. But I would say one of the most beautiful gifts of our faith is the gift of God’s presence in our lives where things may not be resolved, I may still be battling physical, emotional, spiritual issues.

I may be walking through a dark valley. But I sense the presence, the incarnation presence of Jesus walking with me, suffering with me through this. And I know there’s a promise of eternity. I know I’m going to get there at some point, but I know I’m not alone. And that is an amazing gift that we celebrated Christmas, that I think you’re right, sometimes gets overlooked.

Carrie: In the sense of Jesus being the suffering servant. Yeah. And if we are seeking to become more like Christ, that there are elements where we’re going to have to share in suffering within.

Pastor Mark: That’s another thing that’s very unique to Christianity. No other religion in the world talks about it. It’s our nature turn away from suffering and death. That’s a natural response. That’s sometimes what causes our emotional life to truly struggle bcause we want to avoid everything. We want to pack it away and we don’t want to deal with it, but Christianity is truly the unique faith. It says that life is found through death and that liberation and freedom are found through the crucifixion. You mentioned Isaiah 53, the idea that he was wounded and afflicted so that we could find life and peace. That’s an amazing promise that we have that is absolutely unique to our faith.

Carrie: I know we’ve gone deep on this conversation and thrown in a few personal nuggets too. I think it’s really good though, because this is how people who are struggling with anxiety and OCD think, and these are some of the questions that are rolling around in their heads.

I think many people who are in Christian circles that are struggling with anxiety and O C D are struggling from non-biblical theology, from theology that’s coming from man or one or two scriptures pulled out of context instead of looking at the totality of scripture and who God is.

Pastor Mark: Well, I would say a few things about that. I think in general the church has had a negative view of mental health and counseling and it’s kind, it’s, it’s still, it’s crazy to think in our day and time that it’s still a taboo subject for some. And then obviously our church, we have multiple different ethnicities represented in each country. Each ethnicity involved has a different idea of mental health issues and those kind of things.

There’s a lot of baggage that we find here that we have to kind of unwrap to help people understand how to breathe. And it’s okay to say, I’m going to counseling right now, or I’m having panic attacks, or I’ve got issues of anxiety that I need help with. And that we can share that burden together and we can pray for one another.

I would encourage those who are out there if, obviously you need to pray about it, but find a church that has a healthy understanding of emotional health as well as spiritual health. Uh, look for that Lord has taken me on, a journey that I’ve made, a personal commitment to the award that I’m gonna at least.

There’s at least one series that we do every year that is specifically devoted to either anxiety or some other mental health issue. We don’t prop that up like it’s mental health month or anything like that. But we just wanna be conscious and aware of that. Some of the statistics that I read say that one in five adults in America is dealing with some kind of mental illness, and that means one in five in our churches dealing with that too.

What I often do is, I’m trying to teach or preach here in our ministry, is to always look at through a filter of, okay, God, I understand what this says spiritually and biblical, but even emotionally, God, where does this hit me and my heart? Where does it hit our people and how can we address that emotionally as well. Now, I think it’s a healthier approach because there is, and you were afraid to say it, but I will say it, there’s a lot of bad theology out there, okay? It’s detrimental to people who are just trying to figure this stuff out.

Carrie: It’s so important to have these types of conversations. Wrapping up on at the end of the podcast, I like our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Pastor Mark: I already shared some things about my battle with panic attacks a couple years ago and how God has helped free me from a lot of that. But I will say that I still deal with anxiety. I still react in ways that I know is not healthy. Or I will hear something and immediately I’ll go negative or I’ll come up with five different worst-case scenarios that aren’t even warranted.

My hope comes from being a part of a family of faith, and I’m so grateful, not because I’m the pastor of our church, but. I’m just grateful that I’m a part of a faith community, that I don’t have to perform, that I don’t have to be perfect, that I can have a bad day, and others can too, and we can walk in faith with one another, even with our baggage, even with our issues.

I’m just grateful that I don’t have to walk in this thing alone. And not only is Jesus walking with me, but I’ve got other believers that are walking with me, brothers in Christ, people that may not seem significant to the rest of the world. But man, they’re so important to my heart. They’re so important to our faith, and I’m so grateful for that.

Carrie: I think it helps a lot of people reduce stigma just to hear a pastor say, there are times where I struggle with anxiety or the worst-case scenario, and I’ve had a panic attack before, and I know it feels like you’re gonna die and counseling is okay for you. I’ve just appreciated all those messages that you shared with our audience.

I know pastors are busy and sometimes it’s hard to get them on the podcast, so I appreciate you taking the time to spend with me today. My pleasure and I love you and your family and I wish you guys all the best.

I know I asked Pastor Mark a lot of tough questions, but I really appreciate his being willing to take a stab and answer them in a short format version, obviously.

We only have a short amount of time on the podcast to talk about these things, but it’s so important that we do, and I hope this episode challenges you to step back and ask the question, okay, God, who are you? And that you allow Scripture and the Holy Spirit to speak and answer that. I know I’ve shared this on the podcast before, but we get at least one inquiry a week.

It seems now, for a Christian counselor who works with OCD out of the state of Tennessee. Since I’m not able to work with those individuals due to licensure laws. If you have a counselor in your state who you’ve come to trust in has provided really great quality counseling, who is a Christian and can treat OCD, please contact us through the website contact form at hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

You may be able to help someone else that you might never meet, but it would just be a great blessing to us if we could get this referral list off the ground.

Hope for anxiety and OD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

89. Personal Story of Spiritual Abuse and Chronic Pain with K.J. Ramsey, M.A.

Written by Carrie Bock on March 1, 2023. Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 89. Personal Story of Spiritual Abuse and Chronic Pain with K.J. Ramsey, M.A.

In this episode, Carrie interviews therapist and author K.J. Ramsey about her healing journey from spiritual abuse and chronic pain.

Episode Highlights:

How K.J. realized that she was in a spiritually abusive situation
Wrestling with questions about why God allowed her suffering
The importance of emotional safety in a church or community
Her process of leaving a spiritually toxic environment
How connecting to her body helps in her healing
K.J.’s books, “The Lord is My Courage” and “The Book of Common Courage”

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD! K.J. Ramsey, author of The Book of Common Courage: Prayers and Poems to Find Strength in Small Moments. K.J. shares the powerful story behind her book, which emerged from her personal journey through religious trauma. What started as a means of self-help transformed into a heartfelt collection of prayers and poems designed to support those who feel overwhelmed and wordless in their faith.

K.J. shares how her book complements her earlier work, The Lord is My Courage. Both books offer a deep dive into Psalm 23, with The Book of Common Courage providing concise, trauma-informed prayers. These short prayers serve as a soothing balm for those difficult times when long, elaborate prayers can feel out of reach. The book acts as a source of comfort, entering the private spaces of readers’ lives and reminding them they’re not alone.

Our conversation also touches on the significant theme of integrating our physical experiences with our spiritual lives. K.J. emphasizes that our bodies are not betraying us but are integral to our spiritual journey.

I personally found K.J.’s insights profoundly impactful and am currently reading her first book. I hope you find this episode as enriching as I did.

Related links and Resources:

www.kjramsey.com

Explore Related Episodes:

129. Four Steps to Healing from Spiritual Abuse with Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Transcript

Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD episode 89. I had the absolute privilege of interviewing K.J. Ramsey. This was a situation where I didn’t realize before the interview how much we had in common. We both have a background as trauma therapists with more of a somatic lens. We both graduated from the same seminary. It was very interesting to see her perspectives based on her own experiences and understanding of scripture.

Carrie: K.J., welcome to the podcast.

K.J.: Hey, thank you for having me.

Carrie: I know that with authors, you guys tend to have a lot of podcast interviews. It’s almost like you’re on a virtual book tour nowadays, right?

K.J.: Basically what it is, it’s an extensive virtual book tour, and I am an introvert.

Carrie: Oh, no. Well, at least you don’t have to meet as many people face-to-face then.

K.J.: I guess in a way, especially during cold and flu season, and there’s still COVID all around. It’s nice to minimize some of that, but it is good. I get to talk to a lot of really interesting people.

Carrie: My understanding from scoping out your website is that you talk about your personal story there, and I imagine that is what you write about as well. You’ve written a few books. Is it an autoimmune condition that you have or some issue that causes chronic pain?

K.J.: I have several autoimmune diseases, but I started with one, which is a way that it typically goes if you have one; it kind of blooms into more. I’ve had ankylosing spondylitis for 14 years, and AS is the shortened version of that, which is better on the tongue. Last year, I got COVID-19, which turned into several more diseases I will have for my life under intense treatment. I have a lot.

Carrie: You ended up with the long haul COVID symptoms?

K.J.: Yes. Because of it, I had long covid and new diseases, which is hard.

Carrie: I’m curious because you also talked in your story about spiritual abuse, and I’m processing, as well, a lot about healing just in general because my husband was just diagnosed last year with a permanent neurological condition, and there’s no cure for it.

I’m curious if you could share some of your thoughts on healing. I think it helps our audience with anxiety and OCD as well because there’s a lot of struggle in wrestling. Why am I having to deal with this? Why won’t God heal me? Why can’t he take this away from me? He’s all-powerful. He has the ability to do that. Can you tell us about maybe some of your wrestlings with that?

K.J.: I was 20 years old when I suddenly got sick and went from being a fully functional young adult to barely walking and could barely hold a pen or drive myself across campus. I was a college student at the time, and that persisted.

I entered adulthood wrestling with this question of why I have this suffering that doesn’t seem to go away. What is the point? And also, what does God care? What is God going to do about this? And really, my better answers are in the book, my first book, this Too Shall Last. I will say that I’m more a writer than anything else, but I’m a trauma therapist learning how to listen to my body and respond to my own sensations with kindness, compassion, and movement.

I do believe that there is healing in the way that I would say, the capacity to live as fully as we can, even for some things to be reversed. And that’s with me saying that with a person with a lot that’s wrong on my test results.

A lot of ongoing pain still in my life that I’ve seen things change, and I’ve seen my capacity to show up in my life grow massively as I’ve learned to listen to my body and what she has to say about how safe I feel on any given day or moment. From both a theological and a trauma perspective, I believe there is possible healing in how we face ourselves with compassion and face one another with compassion. And I caveat that by saying how I define healing might be different than sudden spontaneous removal of all of your symptoms. I think that pain prompts us to pay attention and bear witness to the pain in our lives. When I say pain, I mean all of it. Emotional pain too, struggles, the very inconvenient experience of having intrusive thoughts. That’s painful. Pain prompts us to pay attention and can point us to the places where parts of us still need to be unfolded with the care that needs to be held.

It’s in that process that we experience more fullness, more joy, that’s healing. There’s a difference between healing and curing. The difference is between good removal of all of your problems and experiencing wholeness, and I think we all can experience wholeness even in a body that continues to have a disease and a mental illness.

Carrie: That’s incredible. I don’t think that I could have phrased that better because I think that aligns with some of the process of what I’ve been thinking about with my husband. It’s like we haven’t gotten the healing from, or the cure, like you said, from the diagnosis, but we’ve been healed in the sense that we’ve been healed from isolation.

We have support and other people we’re connected to who are going through this. We have a support system outside of those that are going through it. We’ve been healed from the financial stress of paying for medical bills, and God has provided. That’s something that I want to write about a little bit more.

When we started this journey, it was kind; a lot of people were praying for him, and he was having eye issues, and they were praying for him for healing. That in itself is somewhat of a miracle because even though he has a degenerative condition, his eyes haven’t changed in a year, which we are just really celebrating; that, and so thankful that he hasn’t lost any more of his vision, but it’s been a process of, I think his eye doctor’s probably not a Christian and doesn’t know quite how to make sense of that. I thought when we first started going through this, God would take healing in any form that it comes in.

However you want to do this, if you’re going to heal him physically or if you want to heal him emotionally, and there’s the level where he’ll talk about how, even though he likes to be in the background, he has this walker now that puts him in the spotlight. People speak to him, and he’s able to encourage them. Or even people with mobility issues say, “Oh, tell me about this walker.” It’s just a little bit different from your typical walker. How do I get one of those? Those types of things. It’s been very interesting to see how God’s used him differently with this struggle and suffering because it’s definitely changed him a lot. It changed me a lot and drew us closer to God and each other and those things. I’m really thankful for it.

K.J: I love that you started that off office saying God has healed you of; I don’t know if you put it exactly like this, but your individualism. I think that’s one of the core things that we’re all being invited into, whether it’s with struggling with something like OCD or Ankylos Spondylitis or complex trauma, there’s this invitation to be more fully human, which means to be in relationship to others, to be connected. There’s something about our struggles that invites us in a way that is harder to decline, to be connected, and to be supported, to be seen. The way that my body works, I can’t do life on my own.

I can’t. There are many stretches where I can’t take care of myself fully; beyond that, I need the emotional support of the people around me. I don’t love experiencing that, and I love that my body pulls me into a story where I don’t have to be self-sufficient, and nobody else has to, either. And I think that is the healing in which we’re all being bound.

We’re all being invited into. It’s the space between each other. That’s where Joy is. That’s where wonder is through love; our struggles take us to go there.

Carrie: We’re entirely too isolated and disconnected from each other in our society. I’m really curious about this. It is kind of switching topics, but your story regarding how you discovered that you were in a spiritually abusive conversation. Just gives us a picture of the warning signs of that or when it starts to click like, “Oh, this isn’t healthy.”

K.J.: In my previous book, the Lord is My Courage, I share a lot of my husband and my story of waking up to the fact that we were in a spiritually abusive faith community in this church and choosing to leave it and trying to heal from it. Dealing with the ongoing effects of religious trauma is so hard about spiritual abuse that it’s often quite subtle.

Of course, there are going to be things that are not subtle. But I think the whole, does the fish know what the water is around them? It’s just, you’re in, you are swimming in the water, and that’s the water. For us, waking up to the fact that the water we were swimming in was toxic was a slow process of paying attention and sensing our pain.

For us, it was noticing how other people were being harmed. My husband was a pastor at this church, and his coworkers would come to him in tears after being yelled at in the pastor’s office. So hearing other people being belittled or overworked, noticing how people are subtly mocked in staff meetings, and being disturbed by that is part of what woke us up.

At first, we weren’t the people being directly attacked because we were doing the stuff that the pastor didn’t want to do himself. My husband was over pastoral care and counseling, and I ran my counseling practice at the church. This pastor wanted to preach, so we were in good graces because we did something that made the church look good and took stuff off his plate. That favor you can get with a leader can blind you for a while to how they might be treating other people. But as soon as we started to confront, I don’t love how you yelled at that person; that’s when you become the problem, too. I don’t so much to categorize warning signs or red flags.

The most important thing is that we should know, especially in white evangelicalism, that we have been taught to dismiss our own bodies’ signals about how safe we are in our environment. We call it definitely faithfulness that you should serve no matter what, volunteer, and believe the best of your leaders because of so many things.

The inheritance of Nastheism down to the more recent effects of purity culture. We have internalized and ingested a spirituality that says the body is bad and your emotions are untrustworthy. I’m here to say that’s not scripturally true, theologically true, or physiologically helpful.

Carrie: Yes, it drives me bonkers.

K.J.: Yes. It’s terrible. That in itself is, those are the seeds of religious trauma right there, but your emotions and your sensations about being in church and being around other Christians are actually telling you really important things about how safe you are and how safe everybody is in that community, and learning to listen to your own sense of distress and being disturbed by something is actually what helps you move into more safety.

Sometimes, your body has wise things to point out about whether somebody’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Our bodies helped us over time. Very slowly, our bodies begged us to listen. I know it was listening that got us free.

Carrie: This is something that really bothers me, that when people comment in church, and I’ve heard it repeatedly with pastors, you have to choose faith over your feelings. Those are interacting with each other all the time. God gave us a body and emotions for a reason, and God has a wide range of emotions. That statement, to me, I feel is very unhealthy, but it’s something that I’ve heard repetitively.

K.J.: You can walk around in public and see people wearing shirts that say faith over fear. It’s so prevalent that we don’t even need to understand how it’s been co-opted by certain political movements. But faith over fear is self-harm because fear is your body’s wise response to show you that you don’t feel safe and help you move into safety and connection. And I know this is bold to say on a podcast, especially about OCD.

Fear is not the enemy. Fear is there to move you somewhere. All emotion is energy meant to move you. Emotion, energy, and motion. It’s intended to prompt you to pay attention to yourself as somebody who deserves safety, connection, fear, and faith. Fear drives you to treat yourself as a friend of God. Fear doesn’t have to be something that we fight.

It can be something that wakes us up. Fear makes you quite alert, and often for those of us with mental illness. It might prompt us to be way more observant than we wish we were all the time. The experience of hypervigilance is not necessarily pleasant, but it is a prompt. It is not the problem; I think it’s the space that goes back to talking about healing.

That’s the space I love seeing people get to make a shift because when you start to treat your fear, which is part of your body’s physiological response to danger and the perception of danger. You start treating your fear as a friend with something important to tell you. Your life changes. There’s room for things not to feel as terrible as they do when you’re fighting part of yourself.

Carrie: It’s so rare that I get to have conversations with somebody that’s this mindful because essentially what you’re talking about is mindfulness. This sense of being curious about our emotional state instead of trying to judge it and say, oh, I shouldn’t be afraid. The Bible says, fear not, so I have to cut that piece off and go with God’s given me love and power to sound mind. And it’s this bizarre Christian CBT, is what I call it, where we try to do some thought replacement, and we’re all going to feel better now, and it just doesn’t work.

K.J.: I would say, what I’m saying more than mindfulness is that embodiment is the practice of non-judgmentally paying attention to and responding to our sensations.

I take it one step further because I think that even with mindfulness, we can stay detached from our physical experience. What’s happening? I’m making this little movement you can’t see me. You keep making this movement with my hand, like cutting ourselves off at the neck. Basically, what happens when we feel afraid, or when we feel overwhelmed, we feel ashamed?

Any of these activating big feelings that come up is that the way your body works, you’re temporarily cut off from the regulating power of your prefrontal cortex. So your brainstem is very active, your limbic system and your brain is very active, and your body is quickly mobilizing you to seek safety, and you can’t access the part of you that’s, well, God is love, and Christ dwells in me. Therefore, I am actually okay. You can’t access that. We’re talking about a bottom-up approach to belief, which is that response to the sensation happening in your body; that’s what I mean by bottom. So, the lower half of you, starting with your body, responds to this sensation with curiosity and compassion.

That is what brings your body and mind back together so that you can return to that place of faith, of mentally accepting an ascent and receiving that Christ is with you. Embodiment this non-judgmental, which is easier said than done, paying attention to what’s happening inside your body.

Carrie: When you were leaving the spiritually toxic environment because essentially you both had to leave your jobs, it sounds like that’s a significant shift. How did you recover from that trauma to become more embodied? Was that through your therapy process?

K.J.: The recovery began, I would say, I think something that feels in this moment important to point out is part of why we don’t leave is because we are so afraid of losing our livelihood and our sense of belonging; that’s why we took us so long to leave. Truthfully, the fear of how we will pay our bills and how we will afford insurance. That kept us extended our stay in the land of toxicity for years. And a lot of people don’t talk about the practicality of that. Having money to pay for your groceries and pay for your rent is pretty important. And whether you’re working for a church or maybe realizing maybe my community is unhealthy and you don’t work there.

The fear of losing your belongings is massive. Most of these kinds of churches prompt like they are ordered around the church should be your whole life. This is where you go multiple times a week. Your small group is your community. So what happens when you have to leave? You lose everything. And I no longer think your life should be ordered around an institution, but that’s a separate conversation.

Healing was started by leaving, and that was terrifying. And it was a rescue in many ways that God would lead us out into a broader place. It was once we were out my body got even more vocal. And I was experiencing a lot of anxiety and tremors in my arms. I was falling. I thought I had had so many mysterious health symptoms over the years with my disease, and I’ve been tested for MS before.

I had a lot of tests done. I had at one point this whole brain and spine MRI done and saw this neurologist, and this was such a moment of grace, of God’s kindness. He showed me the pictures of my brain and spine and said, your brain is beautiful. There is no evidence of disease here. “My wife is a complex trauma survivor,” and I think what’s happening is he had asked us questions about what’s been going on in your life.

“My wife is a complex trauma survivor.” I think what’s happening here is trauma. The further you escape this situation, the better your body will feel; some of these symptoms will disappear. At that point, I was just a therapist. I hadn’t started to specialize in trauma, but to hear somebody named that for me was incredibly helpful because you feel it’s not; what I’m going through is not that bad.

It’s hard to even get to the point of letting yourself call something spiritual abuse. Because we’re so conditioned to be deferential to pastors, to leaders, and we want to be kind. We think that it is not gracious to say something or use a word like that, but grace and truth go together. The truth is my body reacted with such violent, intense shows and displays of a lack of safety because I had been so gaslit, demeaned, and pushed out because I had been treated less than human.

My body was responding in kind, saying this is not okay. That was my body’s protest. I started there because I think it was my physical experience of such extreme distress of feeling terrible. That prompted me to seek more help to get into therapy again. I believe that, more than anything, put me on a path of studying somatics and beginning as a therapist myself into great somatics into my practice, and that’s now the foundation of everything I do. But I start there; I just gave you the version of if we would have this conversation for three hours. I always trust that you know what; sometimes, in these conversations, there’s always a reason that what comes to my mind first is what there’s an invitation to say. And so that’s where we went.

Carrie: How wise of that neurologist to be admitting. “Hey, there’s some psychological things going on.” But not make it, “Well, it’s all in your head because you’re kind of crazy.: There’s this balance where some have had either of those extremes.

K.J: Yes, I’ve been told it’s psychosomatic. It’s all in your head dismissively and blames me like I am too broken. And I’m sure so many people listening have experienced this too, and maybe your husband did far before getting his diagnosis. There’s a vast difference between an acknowledgement of how our brains and bodies are connected that says your symptoms are real and they make sense based on what you’ve experienced.

This is psychosomatic; if you can fix your mental problems, your body will feel better. That’s the sin right there of individualism. That kind of medical model that blames people’s symptomology on their struggle is why they feel these symptoms when our bodies are begging us to hear the truth about the broader systems that we’re a part of, our family systems, our church systems, our society.

I think the point is that these things we feel are such problems or separate us from those who don’t have struggles as much as we do. I say this as a disabled woman. I think there’s some fierce wisdom in the ways that we struggle that our bodies are trying to tell us. You and those around you deserve more love and support than you have received. All of the symptoms of stress that we experience in how they manifest are shouting to tell us we deserve to be seen, held and helped.

Carrie: Very interesting and definitely brought up some things I haven’t considered. I’m curious for you to tell us about the Book of Common Courage: Prayers and Poem to Find Strength in Small Moments. How this book came about and the importance of it. Why does it need to be out in the world?

K.J: We have been talking about trauma and part of what happens when we’re experiencing trauma. Also, when we’re feeling overwhelmed, we talked about how your body is strongly mobilizing. Energy to keep you safe, but that is sinking you further away from your being able to access the language centers of your brain, for example.

The point is when life is hard, it’s hard to have words, and the Book of Common Courage is really my offering of words for the moments in our lives and the seasons in our lives when we feel wordless and when we don’t have words to pray, and we wish we did. When we are struggling to make sense of our lives, when we don’t feel strength, and we don’t feel seen. We want to that it’s an offering of presence, as I think that books are portable presence in so many ways that there’s something about a book that can enter into the private place of your home, your bedside, your living room and be with you and make you feel less alone in your life and story.

I think we all need the reminder that we are not the only ones with questions and confusion about God. And when it comes to whether our stories are excellent. So this is just my offering to bridge that gap between belief and the body, between your hard day and the hope that’s yours.

I wrote it, not meaning to write a book. When I was writing the Lord as my courage when I was processing my own story of religious trauma. I started to write poetry and prayers for myself. Just to process the intensity of the story and really to help myself. There’s poetry is a really distilled form of language, so to help myself distill down, what I am trying to say in this chapter.

What’s the most important thing and what’s just for me and my spouse, and what needs to be out there for thousands and thousands of people to read? Poetry helped me find my way, and then, over time, I just shared it and shared some pieces on social media, mostly because I was tired while writing a manuscript and needed something easy to share.

People felt seen by the poems and the prayers. It was before I called it poetry because I didn’t even feel I could give myself that label. It was through other people’s responses to the words that I was like; I guess maybe this would be encouraging for people, not just for me. And it became a book.

Carrie: I love it. It’s based on Psalm 23.

K.J: Both The Lord is My Courage and the Book of Common Courage walk through the exact breakdown of phrase by phrase through Psalm 23. The book of Common Courage is an exploration. It’s praying through the Psalm, but it’s also praying through getting to receive, being in dialogue with Christ as the good shepherd. Who is the person who that Psalm was pointing towards? Most of the prayers in the book are a colic, short form of prayer, which is intentional. It’s my trauma-informed way of doing less is more. We don’t need long prayers and lots and lots of words when we’re struggling. We need small, and we need a little bit of containment. They are structured, and they are a little bit of containment to help you feel held. But they’re mostly appointed at Christ to dialogue with Christ as the good shepherd who still is seeking you.

Carrie: I love less is more. We did an episode not too long back on breath prayers. That’s something that I’ve just been able to incorporate in my life at different times or seasons, and those are very short but very helpful. If you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger self who is dealing with chronic pain or spiritual abuse?

K.J: I think that I would tell her your body is not bad. Your body is not betraying you by feeling all this pain and struggling so much. Your body has wise things to say, and I dare you to listen. Please listen to her. I think that’s what I would tell her.

Carrie: That’s definitely good. Your body is not bad. The people hear nothing else from this episode. I hope they receive that piece because, as you said, it’s somewhat so ingrained in our Christian culture to almost be scared. To be embodied, something like you’re getting too new age or something like that is not what we’re doing. And it’s not scriptural to be disconnected from ourselves.

K.J: It’s an expression of faith in God who put on flesh to dwell among us. When I treat my body with reverence, I worship Christ, who decided to become human in a body and still reigns in a body. This is worship.

Carrie: Thank you so much for being on the show today. Share your words of wisdom. I think this is going to be relevant and helpful to a lot of people.

K.J: Thanks for having me.

______________________

Carrie: I am currently reading KJ’s first book. I went ahead and picked up a copy after I did the interview, and I’m enjoying it. As always, thank you so much for listening.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Maingrum.

Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Written by Carrie Bock on July 14, 2021. Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Today, we are privileged to have pastor and author, Steve Hinton as our guest. We had a meaningful conversation about doubt and faith. Pastor Steve also shares his journey of finding hope in the face of doubt and childhood wounding experiences.

Episode Highlights:

Doubt as a normal part of one’s faith experience
What is the root of doubt?
Why wrestling with God is a good thing?
How to hear and discern God’s voice in the midst of doubt
Embracing the mystery of faith
Seeing God through pain and suffering
How can we help those who are hurting see that God is good
Pastor Steve Hinton’s book, Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt

Links and Resources:

Pastor Steve HintonBook: Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt

Episode Summary:

Doubt is something that many of us wrestle with in our faith journey. I know from personal experience that it can be tough to understand God, especially when past wounds cloud our perspective. In this episode, I explore these struggles with Pastor Steve Hinton, an author and experienced pastor, who opens up about his own journey with doubt. Having spent over 27 years in ministry, Steve discusses how early childhood wounds influenced his view of God, and how doubt is often rooted in misunderstood childhood experiences, leading us to question God’s goodness.

We also dive into the shame many Christians feel around having doubts. Steve shares his perspective, noting that doubt is a natural part of faith. He encourages us to reflect on the roots of our doubts, whether they stem from a lack of clarity or past trauma. Just like in the Bible, where figures like Elijah experienced doubt, it’s important to acknowledge these struggles and bring them before God.

Steve’s journey reminds us that doubt doesn’t mean a lack of faith—it’s a chance to build intimacy with God. It’s through wrestling with our doubts that we draw closer to Him, much like how we navigate challenging relationships. We can trust that even when things don’t go as we expect, God is still good and has a plan for us. Ultimately, pointing others to Jesus, as Steve emphasizes, is the key to finding peace through doubt. His approach teaches that no matter the circumstances, our relationship with God can deepen when we lean into trust and faith.

Transcript

I imagine that if you’ve been following God for any length of time, at some point or another you’ve had some questions and doubts come up. How do we know that God is really good and maybe hard to come to a certain understanding of God due to past woundedness getting in the way. We’re going to talk about doubt today with pastor and author, Steve Hinton.

Carrie: Welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Steve: Thank you very much. First of all, I just want to give a thumbs up to you. The whole question of anxiety, especially today, the past couple of years, everybody’s past year, everybody’s been worried about the physical aspects of COVID. Suicide hotlines are off the charts and nobody’s really talking about the whole anxiety.

I just want to encourage you and what you’re doing. I think there is a connection to me, I’ve been in vocational ministry about 27, 28 years now. So I’ve seen all kinds of anxiety and, and had to work through some of that myself, just from some wounding in my early childhood. I grew up in the Northern Panhandle of Texas, which is kind of a conservative area.

I grew up with a general biblical Jesus worldview, but I really didn’t know Christ until I was a young teenager. I had to work through some father figure issues in my life. Couple of dads were in there. And then when my mother remarried, when I was about seven or eight, He adopted me. Jim Hinton adopted me the father one year, but he had to work through his own issues from his own childhood.

All that to say is, you know, a lot of times people get their idea of what God is, who God is by the father figure in their lives. So that bled into the book that I had written Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubts and doubts a big topic today. Carrie, I’ve been married for almost 30 years. And we have four young adult children. I’m kind of an adventurous guy and I’m looking forward to having this adventure with you.

Carrie: Awesome. So are all your kids out of the house yet or not yet?

Steve: Just about our third is going to junior college here in the Houston area. The youngest is a college in another state.

My oldest works for a church camp in the state of Washington. And then my second one completed a tour with the Marine Corps and he’s about to do a contract, a security contract, actually for the army in Kuwait here in a month. So we’re almost to that empty nest place, but you know, we can see the light.

Carrie: There’s a line at the end of the tunnel. I’ll just watch out sometimes they become a boomerang generation and boom, bring back. So hopefully yours will say stay launched and you and your wife can enjoy your time.

Steve: Yes.

Carrie: That’s awesome that you have been married for so long, having that type of background and having, you know, being involved in your children’s lives because so many people grow up in a broken situation and then they end up repeating that same pattern.

Steve: Yeah. And that was a big prayer for me, Carrie. That was a big goal for me coming into marriage and coming into parenthood thinking, man, I want to do this fight and not saying that to throw my mother or anybody under the bus but also looking at the right care, looking at society as a whole. We just have way more dysfunction played out today than what we witnessed 20, 50, a hundred years ago because a lot of these root issues that we’re talking about the anxiety, the doubt A lot of those are the fruit of people growing up with the traditional nuclear family, not intact like it was a number of years ago. So some of the anxiety is a by-product of how we’ve constructed life today.

Carrie: I think that sometimes when I talk with Christians in my counseling practice, there’s some shame maybe around having doubts about God or just through church ministry. People say, well, I know that I need to have faith. I know that I need to trust God.

They really struggle maybe with some sense of shame about having these doubts, do you feel like that’s a normal part of our faith experience?

Steve: I think it’s a practical part. I think it’s a reality today. And I resonate with what you’re saying there with the shame, and that’s actually one of the reasons I wrote the book so that people would see, here is a vocational pastor, a guy who’s vocationally in the ministry, and he wrestles with some of these questions and he’s come out of the other end. Therefore, maybe there’s hope for me as well. And even on the shame picture, you know Carrie early on in the process when I was finishing up writing, I had to ask myself this question, how raw do I want to be? Because on one hand, there’s going to be people, for example, in ministry or people who seem to feel like they’ve got it all together who might look at what I’ve written in a judgmental way, but then I thought I’m not writing it for those people.

I’m writing it for those people who are really wrestling. Maybe with the journey of doubt, asking, what is the root behind it? And I think you’re right, some people think, yeah, if I, if I really had faith, I wouldn’t be wrestling with this. But asking what is the root behind the doubt?

Just one needing more data, Luke chapter one, God shows up and says, by the way, Mary, you’re going to have. And her question is how will this be? In other words, she accepted what God was saying, but she’s looking for some clarification. Sometimes the doubt and people maybe who are listening in and maybe they don’t know Jesus yet.

Sometimes the root of the doubt is really not data, but it is an expression of rebellion. As long as I could push this issue off, as long as I can pretend to be an atheist or agnostic, I can push off responsibility. And then also, maybe just, again, looking at the root. Is somebody doubting because they see the promises of God,

they’re trying to walk in faith, but they have these triggers and it’s really not so much about God as it is something that happened to them early in their childhood that just totally got them off rails. And they’re not able to connect the dots and, you know, they need to talk to someone like you Carrie to pull all these pieces together to realize that our God in heaven is not our biological father or our mother or our aunt or whoever that might be.

So I think doubt happens, Elijah in the Bible, a huge man of faith, but in First Kings chapter 19, he wanted to die. He was wrestling with fear and he was also wrestling with exhaustion. So trying to acknowledge doubts there. Okay, how do we couch it? What’s going on? What is behind it? And just being honest about it.

Carrie: Just having a sense of prayer of, I believe, but help my unbelief.

Steve: There you are. I liked that. Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah. I know there are some things that I’m definitely wrestling in questioning God about things that I believe that he’s spoken to my life and I don’t see the fruits of that or their fruition of that vision. And it’s really hard, but I think the wrestling part is so important. It’s an important part of our relationship with God. I don’t think it’s wrong to question at times and say, Hey, help me understand this. You know, I believe that you were speaking this into my life, but then this is what actually happened. And that just brings us closer to God to even have those conversations. It’s a different level of intimacy.

Steve: I liked the way you finished that. You know, Carrie, the level of intimacy because sometimes the doubt will force us to move closer. We’re no longer functioning on this vending machine relationship with God. You put in your dollar bill, your quarters, your credit card, and then you get what you want.

And then sometimes like a good parent, God says, no, or God says not now. And part of the trust is stepping back and saying, okay, God, I don’t understand, but I’m going to trust that somehow. We’ve got to reframe things. Maybe there’s something I’m not seeing clearly. Okay, God, I’m going to be patient and wait on you to clear everything up.

Carrie: Right. I wanted to add something to what you said earlier about God is our father, but God is not like your biological mother and father were to you because they’re human and they’re imperfect and God’s perfect.

I would also say that sometimes people have spiritual leaders like pastors or other people in the church that they’ve really been wounded by, and God is not those people either. And so if people have been wounded by spiritual leaders who led them towards paths that were not biblical, or, dumped a bunch of extra rules and legalism on them and excluded them from grace. God wants us those people to have a different kind of experience with him where they understand his true character.

Steve: I think you’re spot on there, Carrie. And even in my own life, one of the greatest mentors in my life, a wonderful man of God, incredibly brilliant, but he’s very stoic, very logical.

I tend to be very ADHD and I want to go save the world and go see the world. So I’m going, into adulthood trying to process this. I don’t function the way my uncle functions. How does that play into God? And obviously, my uncle loves God and I love God and God’s doing this, but not this.

And then I start to doubt, well, did I hear from God, right? Or does God even liked me or what do I do now? So one of the things I do carry to encourage other people is I just try to point them to Jesus again and again, and again, even people who don’t know Jesus, I try to say I get it.

There are a lot of people out there who have wounded you, who have done things, maybe even false teachers, but I try to point them directly to the person of Jesus Christ, both divine and human. And that’s the perfection. No human being, no woman, no man, no matter how good they are is perfect, but Jesus Christ.

Carrie: How do you feel like God spoke to you in the midst of your doubt as you were wrestling with some of these things?

Steve: A lot of it Carrie is just keeping my nose in the Bible on a regular basis, even times when I don’t feel it. We have to ask ourselves what are we listening to. If we’re listening to the media, the world 24/7, that’s going to cost a lot of doubt.

If we’re listening to God’s word, who are we with, I believe we’ve got to be connected to a local body of Christ. So in some of the darkest hours, I try to listen to the still small voice of God, which means you got to shut up and be quiet. But also, we’re trying to hear God’s voice.

Okay. Well, God’s given us the revelation through the scriptures. So being in the scriptures, especially the Psalms, especially the Psalms over and over and over again. And just wait.

Carrie: Waiting is so hard sometimes when you really want an answer. I went through a divorce. That’s something that you probably don’t know about me. It was a pretty traumatic divorce a few years ago, and God told me through that process through basically three different situations like I sensed it in my spirit that God was telling me. You’re just not gonna understand that. And you need to let go of your need to understand because I wanted it to make logical sense and it just didn’t make any logical sense. So there was a mentor at church that also spoke to me as I was trying to process it with him. And he said almost the exact same words that I sense to my spirit. It was just like “Carrie, you’re going to have to let go of this need to understand because it’s just not going to make sense to you.” And I feel like there was one more situation at like came in threes and I was like, okay, God, I’m sorry that you had to tell me three times.

I’m sorry. I didn’t listen the first time, but I hear you loud and clear. This is just something that I’m not going to be able to understand. And that’s something that’s really hard for people with OCD to sit with their level of uncertainty and doubt about the situation. I don’t know if you know that but they call OCD the doubting disease. There are always questions.

Steve: I had not heard that, but that makes sense. There’s probably a connection with that and these control issues that I want to, why am I doubting because I want to control it and I can’t control it.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Just trying to like wrap our minds around spiritual things. Sometimes God is so much bigger and beyond where we are that we’re not going to be able to keep humanly comprehend him fully. We’re only getting the bits and pieces that we can receive. I think there’s just so much more, and I’ve learned, I guess, through some of that process also to embrace some of the mystery of my faith, that it’s faith that’s part of the process is that there are going to be things that I don’t feel know or can’t fully explain and that’s part of my connection with God.

Steve: I think I’d put us to Kado on that. And again, part of the reason I wrote the book was to show, here’s a vocational guy who’s been in ministry for a long time, and he’s still wrestles with doubt. I have more questions now than I had when I first went to Bible college when I went to seminary, but by getting to a place where I’m able to say, okay, God. I’m okay. There are some things I’m never going to figure out, which actually means you’re bigger than I am and being at peace with that. So I think that might be a component of the doubt, being able to just rest in and again, looking at Mary. Mary, didn’t have all the details figured out, but she was able to say, okay, God, I’m your servant. You’ve given me a thumbnail sketch of what’s going on here and I’m going to trust you with the rest.

Carrie: Yes, that’s so good. So I know one thing that can come up in, in therapy and, you know, you had your kind of own share of childhood. What I would call attachment trauma with caregivers and other people have had other experiences in childhood that maybe they went through an abusive situation and they might really be struggling with.

What would you say to someone who struggles with this idea of God being good? Because maybe they’ve experienced a certain level of trauma in their past, and you had some things that you talked about in your book in terms of growing up without a father or having various father figures in your life? And so it’s hard for us to wrap our minds around, like, okay, if God’s good, why would he allow us to go through these very painful situations? Or why would he put us in that particular family that hurt us?

Steve: Yeah. Again, affirming them, listening to them and trying to understand them and be in their shoes. I think sometimes leaders, we try to answer too quickly until we empathize with them and then hear them. There’s the whole theological aspect the fact that we have free will, that’s why people make dumb choices. There actually is no good unless there’s the opportunity for evil, the opportunity to go against what is good because we would just be robots without them.

And then again, reframing that what we do, for example, what we think success is. You may have people in your practice who have huge incomes and huge salaries and they’re on speaking towards and things like that, but they have zero relationships with their spouse or their kids, but would we call that successful? The world would. But in my years of vocation and vocational ministry, any time I’ve been with someone when they’re on death’s door, if there is ever been a regret, it was always a relational regret. I wish things were better with my kids. I wish things were better with my spouse. It’s never a regret of I wish I made more money or something like that. So maybe reframing what is success, what is good. I’ve talked a lot about being in the Bible and I’m thinking of the apostle Paul. If anybody would have their prayers answered, it was the apostle Paul, but he made it very, very clear and talked about the thorn in the flesh.

There was something in his life that was causing all kinds of trauma and he prayed more than once. And God says, “I’m leaving this there for your good and my glory.” So I would tell people to keep their life in the word, keep pressing in, be in the church, because these are people that can encourage you.

And you go back and you look at Thomas, you know, refer to him as doubting Thomas. He said I’m not going to believe. Well, if you look at a context, Thomas was not with the other apostles. The first time Jesus appeared to him, Thomas was out of the community and Jesus came back around and said, Thomas, look at my scars and stop doubting and believe.

But that’s an illustration as to why I say care, you’ve gotta be in community to work through these doubting issues.

Carrie: Community is really, really powerful. One thing I’ve realized, I think through processing literally now hours and hours of traumatic material with people is two things. One, those hard situations are what builds our character.

So if we didn’t have those difficult and challenging situations, we wouldn’t be as compassionate as we are today. If I hadn’t have gone through my divorce, I wouldn’t have the understanding of grace that I have today that I’m really so incredibly thankful for. And it has allowed me to extend grace to other people. It’s taught me so much about forgiveness and so many different things that I could go into there. I talk about it in my initial episode, but if we don’t go through some of those hard stuff like God uses that in a beautiful way to really like the working of things together for good, like Romans 8:28 talks about in our lives.

And if we didn’t have all of that, we wouldn’t be the people that we are today. And God uses those things to sanctify us and grow us closer to Christ. One of the other things that I’ve realized through processing childhood trauma with Christians is often people will have this spiritual experience. It’s like once the trauma part gets cleared up, they’re able to see, look back through a different lens and recognize that God really was there for me.

And he was there the whole time, working behind the scenes. And he was always with me. He never left me. He preserved me through all of the challenging, dangerous, whatever, fill in the blank things that I went through. And that’s a really powerful experience, I think for people as well, to recognize and acknowledge, and just in terms of wrestling with the role of suffering, I guess, in our lives.

Steve: Yeah. There’s tons of volumes on suffering and how that fits in. It circles back around to the whole question “If God’s good, why is there suffering?” And again, reframing our world and in our worldview and in our philosophy and our theology.

The reality that God allows things to happen to refine us and thinking about my own story. I came out of high school with all these doubts about who I am, went into college, and I realized pretty quickly that God had called me to preaching that aspect of ministry. And I was pretty good at that. The art, the craft of homiletics and in writing. And I began to put my identity into that. And then when I go through a period of time and I went through a period of time where nothing is working right. And then I began to realize, it’s not about my identity as the preacher. It’s my identity as Steve, just Steve.

And that’s illustrative of getting to a level of depth, relationship with God If I had not had gone through these tough times. We may say, “Where are you, God? What’s going on?” Well, the bottom line is, there’s a lesson in that.

And we do come out of that with more grace to people, more compassion to people. And we’re able to minister to people at a deeper level that we would not have been able to do so If everything happened at exactly the way we wanted it.

Carrie: Right. What do you hope that people will experience by reading Confession?

Steve: Carrie. I hope they have a smile on their face. There’s a lot of raw material in there, but there’s some funny stuff. And I hope that they’re able to say “I get it. I’d been there.” And you know what? there are other people who’ve gone through the tunnel. I think there’s hope I can get through the tunnel as well.

I hope that it will be an encouragement to people that they will press further and deeper into the presence of Jesus and no matter what they’re going through, they can come out at the end of the tunnel stronger and then be able to share that with other people.

Carrie: Right. One of the things that I appreciated you sharing in the book that I felt like it would be good to bring out is this sense of like struggling with has God really forgiven me for my past mistakes. And this element of it took you a while to kind of work through some past sins. I don’t know how you would say it if like the devil was holding them over your head or you were, but it just was something that like kind of kept coming back up and coming back up for you.

A lot of Christians can really identify with that, that wrestling of really like how can we rest in God’s forgiveness and have that assurance?

Steve: That’s a good question, Carrie. And I think you’re right that I’ve had two or three monumental peaks where I was able to look at things and say, “yeah, I own it.

I did it. That was me.” I think that’s part of the process. We can’t blame other people. We got to own it. And then being able, to surrender it to God and realize that that whole Jesus died on a cross thing. It is finished. That’s a real deal. But again, I want to come back to the community. that’s the beauty of the church.

I’m not talking about my local church, although that’s true, but the universal church that has a body. We encourage one another. And for me to affirm other people and affirm the grace and then receive that back as well. That’s why it’s so important that we have people in our lives that we be people.

And then we have people in our lives to remind us of the things we know. We may have it in our head, but it takes a little bit longer to move that 12 inches down from our head to our heart. And that’s why we got to keep repeating it again and again and again.

Carie: Yes, absolutely. Just keep repeating like the promises that we have through scripture and in Christ. This is so important. We can’t forget those things.

So at the end of every podcast, I like our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Carrie: One immediate thing, here we are, we’re recording this in may, and I know it’s going to launch later, but one immediate thing is a big debt that I took about 12 years ago because I was just so certain I was following God’s lead and everything fell apart. And over the past couple of months, it’s interesting Carrie to see, here are some things I have been praying about for years that it just seems they’re falling into place. So maybe again, part of the reason I wrote the book is to say, here is a narrative to show that God is faithful and we can look at the faithful stories and in the lives of other people. But I think that that would be a situation where I’ve been praying about a few things for years and just over the past month, they’ve just been coming together. And maybe that’s an encouragement to folks to not give up. Just keep on keeping on.

Carrie: Yes, that is really good. And there is something about persevering in prayer and waiting for God’s timing.

Steve: Yes because God’s timing is better than ours. Sometimes we’re not ready. Sometimes we are not ready for it. Sometimes other people aren’t ready for it. So it’s a waiting for it.

Carrie: Absolutely. This was a really great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with us about doubt today. That’s good.

Steve: Well, Carrie, thank you for the opportunity. And again, I just want to encourage you in what you’re doing because it is so vital, especially in our world today, people need hope and thank you for giving that to people.

Carrie: Thank you. We will put all the information in the show notes. The link to where you can find the book and get in touch with Steve, if they would like.

________________________

God in his amazing, perfect timing knew that I needed to have this conversation with Steve when I did. It was such a blessing to be able to talk about these things. And I hope it was a blessing for those of you who are listening as well.

If you’re new to the show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope and developing healthier connections with God and others, specifically for Christians who may be struggling with anxiety or OCD.

If you’re searching for a little extra encouragement in the middle of the week, you’re welcome to follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Thank you so much for listening.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Tag: spiritual growth

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