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51. Surrendering Our Insomnia to God with Dr. Charles Page

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 51. Surrendering Our Insomnia to God with Dr. Charles Page

Today on the show, I’m privileged to be interviewing Dr. Charles Page, a surgeon, author and speaker.  Dr. Charles shares with us how he surrendered his sleep problems to God.

  • Why did Dr. Charles write a book about insomnia?
  • Christian worldview about sleep
  • Dr. Charles’s tips and strategies to beat insomnia and sleep better.
  • Scripture verses related to sleep
  • How do we surrender to God?
  • Dr. Charles’s book: Surrendered Sleep

Scripture verses discussed: Psalms 121:4-5, Psalm 4:8, Ephesians 4:27, Psalm 148

Links and Resources

Dr. Charles PageBook: Surrendered Sleep

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

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Transcript of Episode 51

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 51. I’m your host Carrie Bach, and we are covering all types of topics on the show related to anxiety. I have wanted to have someone come on and talk about sleep for quite some time. Because as we know, many people who struggle with anxiety deal with insomnia, and this topic is especially timely for me because I was up in the middle of the night, just last night, having a hard time going to sleep.

Carrie: So I am so glad that Dr. Chuck Page, a surgeon, and author of Surrendered Sleep is here to talk with us today. Thank you for coming. 

Dr. Chuck: Well, great to be here with you, Carrie and I got up about three o’clock this morning, too. So are I share your pain. 

Carrie: How did a surgeon come to write a book on insomnia?

Dr. Chuck: Well, that’s kind of a convoluted story. Let me make it short. My whole adult life I’ve suffered from sleep issues. Just the regular things that people face every day, the things that raise through our minds, our to-do list and all the woulda shoulda kudos of the day And then all the things that we are anticipating or worrying about it the next day.

So all of those things, but on another level, my whole adult life I’ve been an insomniac because I’m a surgeon. I’m on call all the time. I get called in the middle of the night, even when I’m not on call. Yeah, people call me at three o’clock in the morning to say, hey doc, what you’re doing? We just want to know that. Just want to see what you’re up to at three o’clock in the morning. So it’s been really challenging for me from that standpoint. Then on another level, I have sleep apnea, I didn’t even know it and I’m kind of one of those who do, as I say, not as I do doctors, I’ve kind of gone through this process of learning myself about sleep disorder.

So it kinda hits me in a lot of different ways. I think that’s kind of one of the take-home messages that I want your audience to really think about is that a lot of times its not just one thing. It’s multiple things that are hitting us as we lay our heads on our pillow. 

Carrie:  Yes. Physical and mental health things can be coming up at night.

Dr. Chuck: Yep. 

Carrie: Yeah. So what scriptures have you found that speak to sleep specifically? 

Dr. Chuck: Oh, my goodness. So there’s a lot. There’s a lot of scriptures that talk about it. So it’s interesting as I began to kind of deal with this, I began to realize how much the Bible has to say about sleep. It’s kind of funny. Most people don’t think about going to the scripture with their sleep issues, but you think about it, sleep was God’s idea. One of the interesting things, you being a psychologist, I know you face this, as a medical doctor, I face this. There are different worldviews out there.

Do you think about it? No one can explain sleep. I mean from a natural secular worldview thinking as it from an evolutionist, they don’t have an explanation for sleep or they have some very brilliantly stupid ideas that somehow, but from that worldview, they don’t have an explanation for why we go to sleep.

You think about it. Humans are unique because we sleep about eight hours in a 24-hour cycle, as opposed to elephants or giraffes, or dear me, nicely of about two hours. From an evolutionary standpoint, if you think about it from that worldview, you snooze, you lose. So it’s, it’s really hard to explain.

Now we know from a Christian worldview that sleep was God’s idea. So the scriptures have a lot to say about sleep. Yeah, can look at the Bible and say, okay, here are the 11th commandment. You shall sleep eight hours. I’ve read some books that people say, you know what God’s promised you and a good night’s sleep. There are not really any passages that say that. There’s no turn to the fourth book of sleep and we’re going to study this. I mean you have to kind of look at the Bible on a kind of a bigger picture to really understand what it says. The main thing is there’s a lot of attitudes that emerge for the circumstances that we’re facing.

So yeah, there’s a ton and I can just kind of go through all those, but just beginning with the first kind of a concept, sleep was God’s idea. We were created to sleep and I think one of the big ideas that the scriptures tell us and kind of fits in with the rest of our lives. One of the reasons I think that we were to sleep is because God really wants us to turn off. When you think about the creation story, starting in Genesis one. It’s a funny phrase, it says in the evening and the morning was the first day. And so it’s funny, we get it the other way around. We think, well, those day starts when the sun comes up.

When I get up in the morning, that’s when the day starts. No, from the Hebrew standpoint of the day, the day started when the sun went down and so they began their day with rest. That’s an interesting, different, very different perspective than the way we live in our modern culture. We can say, hey, we turn the lights off, and hey, goodnight God, I’m going to bed. I’ll see you in the morning. But actually, the scriptures talk about how God never slumbers or sleeps 120 seconds song. God never slumbers or sleeps that He is just as active and working in our lives as we put our heads on our pillow. That’s one of the great things I think to bring in that, that the Christian can bring into to rest is that, hey, whatever circumstances we’re going through, God’s got this.

So just kind of keeping that big idea that God is just as active as He does. He doesn’t go to sleep when we do. So he’s still working in our lives and I think that’s one of the first things to kind of understand about who got it. 

Carrie: Okay. I always like to say God’s bigger than any problem that you’re going to face today, so we don’t feel like we can handle it, but it’s easy for God. He can handle anything. I know that we talked about this a little bit earlier, but worrying thoughts about our present life, sometimes just thoughts about the state of the world. It can keep us up at night and we’re taught in the Bible or pray about these things in order to receive peace from God. Have you found specific prayer practices or strategies helpful when you’re awake, either having trouble falling asleep or waking up in the middle of the night? 

Dr. Chuck: Yes. I think we need to make whatever routine. I mean, once again, we’re personal beings and we each have a unique relationship with God for the Christian. But I think beginning your day in scripture and prayer, and just a time of just journaling or whatever you do, do that before you go to bed and do that in the morning and kind of sandwich your laugh into sleep.

And so one of the interesting things, so often the things that race through our mind and rob us asleep, I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience. But sometimes like, I’ll be thinking about a situation may be. Oh my goodness, I face things every day, all kinds of things and that theme begins to pop into my mind and I pray about it as I don’t even read scripture.

It seems like prayer and I give it to God and then five minutes later, it’s pop base boomerang back into my consciousness. It really plagues my slave. So one of the things I think that we often forget is the art of meditation. Meditation is so powerful. You guys talk about, cognitive behavioral therapy, think about the good things but it’s even from a scriptural standpoint. It’s a lot deeper than that. I mean, it’s not an Eastern meditation where we’re emptying our mind, actually, meditation is filling our mind. It’s kind of the law of replacing. So often when a competing thought or we’re worrying thought enters our mind, we can’t just take it out of our mind because it’ll boomerang back into our thinking.

We have to replace it and that’s where meditation comes in. For example, Philippians, everybody knows Philippians chapter four, it talks about, in everything, give prayer and in that verse, it talks about there’s anything good, anything noble, anything, think about these things. It’s talking about the art of meditation and I think that’s so key for us because as you show me your focus, I’ll show you your future, and as we begin to focus on the scriptures and begins to fill our minds with the good stuff. So that’s part and you can even go back to the songs.

For example, if you think about David, one of the songs is the fourth song. It was in the evening Psalm that David prayed when he was going through the toughest time of his life. This was when Absalom Salaam had usurped the throne and he was running for his laugh crossing, the Jordan river and people were and fingers at aim. It was just multiple stuff that was robbing  his sleep. As he goes through this process, and it says in Psalm 4:8, I will lay me down in peace and sleep for you, Lord. Let me dwell in safety and so this process of prayer and meditation, I think is huge.

So, hey, have you ever heard of the hippocampus part of the brain? So it was interesting. No, it’s not an exhibited Azu okay. The hippocampus is a part of the brain for the audience. What the hippocampus does is the hippocampus take short-term memory and embed it into long-term memory. And so at the end of the day, our hippocampus goes to work. So as we’re sleeping, the hippocampus is constantly taking all of those memories of the day and it begins to embed them in our long-term memory and that’s why it’s so important. But back to your question that we stop and we begin to process those events that have happened during the day. I mean, it’s just so simple because if we don’t, instead of getting better, we’re going to get better, those bad experiences, we all have this stuff.

I mean, think about all the COVID stuff that everybody’s dealing with now and just these experiences and so being able to filter them through the scriptures and be able to process them, I think is very healthy. It talks about in Ephesians four, I think 26, it talks about, not to give the devil a foothold, but to deal with your anger before you go to bed. So I’m paraphrasing that, but so often we have these emotions that just, man, you probably never have those Carrie being a counselor, but people mad at me all the time, you killed a grandma, you didn’t do this. You didn’t or something didn’t turn out the way that I expected them.

When I have a bad day, I really have a bad day. So being able to filter those things in and deal with those emotions is huge. We have to let the natural processes of the way we were designed work for us. And so we don’t have to do much. I mean, the devil doesn’t have to do much when we’re not meditating and praying the scripture. So I guess that was a long answer to your question, but that’s what I do. I try to meditate. I try to read, I try to pray, do all those things.  I think that’s what most people deal with. It’s called primary insomnia. Most people have trouble going to sleep. 

Carrie: Okay. So what do we do for those of us that wake up in the middle of the night? Because that’s my problem. I normally do not have problems going to sleep. I can just ask out, but then when it comes to, I wake up with thoughts in the middle of the night.

Dr. Chuck: Well, good for you. That’s great and I don’t either, because usually, I’m so exhausted by the time I get to bed. It’s funny. They say those who sleep like a baby probably don’t have one, and I haven’t been my wife and I have such different sleep habits. So, I tell people I’m the best, get the best guy to see on the worst day of your life. My wife is the best person to see any day of your life. But for me, when I’m woken up in the middle of the night, one thing that I’ve learned to do many times when I’m kind of tossing and turning in my bed is take a step back and listen to God sometimes.

Those are opportunities that God is trying to get our attention. I think most of us and the culture that we lay, I remember going so fast during the day that we don’t have time to really stop and listen, and God wants to speak to us. And sometimes He has to, He has to wake us up and not to get our attention. And so you don’t think about that. You go back to study in first Samuel, the story of Samuel. He has a little boy and they’re at the table with Eli and he’s going to sleep, and God’s saying Eli, he gets up and goes. Samuel gets up and goes to Eli and back and forth all the time, and God’s trying to get his attention to give him a message and he doesn’t catch it.

I wonder how many times I’ve done and it’s actually an opportunity, to meet with God and think about what Samuel would have missed out on. He would have never stopped and heard the wind. That was the beginning of a series of steps that set the same direction. And so often when I’m waking up in the middle of night, just kind of keeping them in mind, God, are you saying something to me? And sometimes He’s not. I always try to keep a journal at the bedside because sometimes it’s something a thought will come into my mind and it may be just a random thought or it may be something that’s really something that God has woken us up to tell us. And so just to write it down and in the morning, you can look at it.

Now, the verse Psalm 7 talks about how God ministers to us, how the spirit ministers to us at night. And so looking at that and thinking about the fact that hey, this may be just something that God just write it down. How many times they’ll say him let’s sleep on it. Now I want to sleep on this message, maybe something very simple, simple about either or a person can pop into our mind. Somebody that we haven’t thought about a year. So the first thing, if you get up at night, get up and pray. Just like Samuel said, speak Lord for your servant is hearing. That’s in first Samuel three. A good rule of thumb, hey, got it. This may not be you, but it may bespeak for your servant is listening.

You’d be surprised and something, and even if we don’t have an answer, I think those times of fellowship become very precious to us, in the sense where we’re not losing anything by having those times of fellowship with God at night, when no one’s there, you can go through the Psalm 1:48. I think it talks about how God keeps me up at a meditated night upon God. And so just kind of thinking about that, it’s a very different perspective of sleep than we get. So it may be a divine appointment. You’re correct. 

Carrie: It’s a good time to be quiet. The house is quiet. There’s not much going on. There aren’t really a whole lot of distractions, maybe that can, we can’t do too much. We don’t want to wake up other family members. So it is a good time to sit down, maybe in reading or praying. Sometimes I will get up and write and I’ll just type whatever’s on my mind and it’s kind of a brain dump in the middle of the night.

And I wonder if you know, I’m not, it’s some of those things that may be that I didn’t take the time or have the chance to process. Sometimes things happen, in the evening, like right before you go to bed, and sometimes that can really throw me off. Sometimes on Tuesday nights, we’ll have church director meetings via zoom and I’ll be thinking about what our pastor was talking with us about or upcoming church things that we have going on. I don’t always have a lot of time to process that before I go to sleep. I think I ended up waking up in the middle of the night. 

Dr. Chuck: I think everybody who listened to this is going, yep, I get it. But one of the things you brought up Carrie, that I think is very important is journaling. I didn’t really realize this, but this book that I wrote about sleep was I really thought I was writing it for other people, but really in a sense, I was writing it for myself as my own way of dealing with the spiritual component of sleep. And I’m realizing that too, with the rest of the books that I’m writing, I mean, really. Journaling is a way that helps us process the events in our lives that I think is so productive. And if you know, if anybody in your audience has never tried journaling, get up and write, and you’d be surprised, you’d be surprised what just a little bit of introspection and thinking will do.

Carrie: You would be surprised at what comes out. A lot of times, one time I realized, oh, well, I’m worrying about something that’s the way in the future that I don’t have any control over. I was like, well, that’s not even close to where I’m at today. That’s really an opportunity for me to let go. You have lots of worries about the future. So how can, because your book is called Surrender to Sleep. So for people that, I mean, we have a hard time sometimes letting go of control. Let’s be honest. We want to try to control things that we don’t have any control over. That obviously creates a lot of anxiety. How do we surrender that over to God and not pick it up five minutes later?

Dr. Chuck: Wow. That is one of those million-dollar questions that, I think we all struggle with Carrie. I think surrender is a process, pass or disease go or just surrender, but it’s us thinking about that, it really is a process. It’s a stepwise process. It is an attitude. I think that we have to embrace this concept of surrender, control even as a Sergeant because I’m a control freak because even, in the operating room or patient, just the smallest thing can make a huge difference. And so, and it’s really hard to realize that control is just an illusion from an earthly standpoint.

And so realizing that if we do yield to God, God’s grace begins to empower us to be able to work more according to His plans and just release the outcome into what God wants. So surrender is huge and it’s I think a lifelong process that we go through. But once again, I think we were created, I think it’s just a reminder every day. If we were, God created us to surrender, that’s what sleep is about. It’s just, it really is. We have to let go and let God do for us what we can’t do for ourselves. What a picture of grace. It’s not saying not to minimize our responses, but yet to understand that we let go, God’s going to do some great things and so that’s what I’ve learned. That’s what my book is about. It’s just really changing focus. You show me your focus, I’ll show you your future.

And so if we focus so often we think about sleep, we think about, oh man, it’s 11 o’clock or three o’clock in the morning. I can’t sleep and I’ve got all this stuff to do tomorrow. And man, the male in our mind just starts working and we begin to worry and we began to meditate. We meditate on our fears and stuff. But if we change focus and we focus on our relationship with God, it doesn’t mean that God’s going to promise a good night’s sleep, but He will give us, we have to trust His sovereignty that even if we’re wake up and we’re tired, we’re exhausted, God’s still got that. I mean, God’s still going to give us the energy that we need to do the things that He wants us to do the next day. It is just a kind of bigger picture understanding of God’s grace in His work. 

Carrie: I think you do bring up a good point there because we get stressed out after we’ve been awake for a little while in the middle of the night or after we can’t go to sleep, then we’re stressed about before now we’re stressed about not sleeping. Oh, I’m only going to get five hours, I’m only going to get four hours. I’m going to just try to go back to sleep this last hour before the alarm clock goes off and you get real trippy about it. So that definitely happens to a lot of people.

Dr. Chuck: But I’ll tell you something and that’s the thing about surrender. Sometimes it means that we sacrifice our sleep to help other people. And I have to do that a lot. I have to get myself up out of bed and go and go to the hospital or answer a phone call or whatever. And just having that attitude that, hey Lord, whatever tomorrow brings Your grace is going to be sufficient. They helped me through that and just keeping that perspective has really helped me a lot. 

Carrie: Good. Well, we’ll definitely put links in the show notes to your website and your books and where people can find out more information. If they want to get the book. So at the end of every podcast, I ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.

Dr. Chuck: And thinking about this, Carrie, I just want to just leave you with a personal story. So, I’ve been practicing surgery for 26 years. I’m 54 years old and I’ve seen a lot of changes in medicine. It’s kind of funny, I’m becoming one of those old dinosaurs. So anyway, as health care has really changed in the past 10 years, I can’t say that I’ve always responded in the most positive ways.

A lot of bitterness, a lot of things, just a lot of stuff because there’s the way things should be and the way things are. And I think we all live with those kinds of attention. In our laws and once again, that’s something that keeps us up at not sometimes, but what’s interesting over the past several years, just realize it is that I’m going through a different season of life, that I had to make some decisions about my lifestyle.

And the biggest breakthrough I’ve had in the past couple of years is changing my lifestyle. I had to stop taking calls at the hostel. And as a surgeon, a lot of the ways you value yourself is how much work you do in the hospital. But it was a real step of faith for me is that I had to say, okay, good. I’m just not a 30-year-old guy anymore that can stay up three days and deal with stress and pressure. So as I began to say no to a lot of things, to stop being a doormat to the hospitals, and I know that sounds crazy, but as in my job, as a rural surgeon, I mean, they call me for everything. And so in taking a step back and letting go of some things, my sleep has gotten so much better.

Because like I said, it is multidimensional, as I’m getting fewer calls from the hospital in that I’m sleeping better. And then I’m able to focus on my mental health and my diet and I’m losing weight and I’m feeling better. I come home and not in my wife says, who are you married? So thinking about this, we live in this crazy nanosecond culture that’s constantly barraging us. And so getting back to the way that we were designed and created and getting along with God and cooperating with God. It’s not anything big. It’s not like a laser beam of holy spirit power helps me in, but just me and making some decisions to say, hey, this is just unhealthy.

And at this season of life, I just need, what’s funny is that God has provided for my family. I mean, I’m busier now and I’m not going into the hospital doing outpatient surgeries. And man, I just, I handle stress better. I have. People better and problems better, it’s just, my whole life has just changed.

I feel like I have a new lease on life and I’m a better doctor now than I was two years ago because I was so overwhelmed. And so what I want to encourage your audience today is to think about those things in their lives that they really need to change because so often sleep is just a symptom of a deeper problem in a deeper issue that’s going on in our lives. We didn’t even touch about medicine, but the medical problem, medical aspect of this,  but go get, go get checked. I mean, you may have a med, you may have a sleep disorder, but just keep in mind that sometimes we focus on the little, the symptoms and not on the deep root causes.

And so for me, it’s been a big, just a change of my lifestyle, which has a real spiritual component has made a world of difference and I’m sleeping better now than I ever have. And I wrote the book in that crazy, do as I say, not as I do, but I wrote the book and I didn’t realize that it was just something so simple in my life that I needed to change. And it was an aspect of luck. We’ve been talking about it as an aspect of surrender said, okay, God, you’ve got this, I’ve gotta let go of this. I can’t do this. Like I did 20 years and so I think for me, that has been the biggest thing. And I want to encourage people to just take time and reflect and think about those things that maybe that God doesn’t want them to do.

And we just pile so much on our plate. We have no margin and I think so many of our problems are self-induced that’s what I’m learning is that I can let go. They all say in a clean conscious makes us off the pill, as you make those decisions. And this is one of our attitudes, have a wise heart and make those decisions in your daily life, you set yourself up for better sleep.

Carrie: I think that that’s excellent, really evaluating what we have on our plate. And do we need to have everything on here and ask God, okay, I feel like I’m doing too much, which of these things can I let go of, or take off my plate. And that is a step of faith for us because we’re so used to doing so much often. I think that that’s great advice for people to evaluate. So I know that you told me before we hopped on here, that you have some videos on YouTube and that people can learn more about these practices. And so we’ll put some links in there in the show notes as well. Thanks for coming on and sharing with us your wisdom in between procedures.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

50. Doctor’s Offices, Prayers, and Our First Year of Marriage

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 50. Doctor’s Offices, Prayers, and Our First Year of Marriage

As promised, I’m bringing back my favorite guest in celebration of my 50th episode, it’s none other than my husband, Steve Bock! 

Steve and I are happy to share with you the ups and downs of our first year of marriage and how we remain constant in prayer.

  • Adjustments we have made as a married couple.
  • Funny and weird things we learned about each other
  • Dealing with a health scare and coping with stressful health issues and never-ending doctor appointments
  • Walking through life together and giving God all the control
  • Our shining light in the midst of a hard time
  • Our goals for the podcast 


Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

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Transcript of Episode 50

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 50. I promised to bring back my favorite guest, my husband, Steve so we can talk about our relationship ups and downs and life that happened in our first year of marriage. 

Carrie: Welcome back, Steve. 

Steve: Thanks for having me. 

Carrie: You are my biggest fan and support, so I really appreciate you being here. We wanted to start off with a couple of fun questions. First, we got married and then we moved in together and we were adjusting to living life in the same household. What was the biggest surprise for you? 

Steve: Well, I initially thought that it would be the dishes because you put your dishes in a different place than I’m used to. The biggest adjustment was you are a sheet stealer, a blanket taker, so we can be in the same bed trying to sleep and somehow I find myself or was finding myself thinking, oh, my toes are cold. What happened to the nice sheet that I had on me? And so we had to resolve that we have separate sheets now, which seems weird to say, but otherwise, you just roll and roll and roll and roll and suddenly you’re all nice and toasty. 

Carrie: Yeah. Somehow I’m like a burrito on the covers.

Steve: A human burrito.

Carrie: I am definitely a cover hog. I will admit that. So I would say for me, the biggest surprise was related to combining households in that Steve actually has more shoes than I do. I know that women are usually the ones that are super fashionistas and do have a lot of shoes and different sites, styles, and colors. But Steve likes to have a variety of shoes and a variety of clothes and so he’s looking around the closet while we’re reading. So that was a big surprise for me and what’s bad about that is that I got rid of shoes.

Steve: I still have more than you, even though I got rid of shoes, but I want new shoes and I’m not a materialistic person. Probably my only thing is wanting more shoes. 

Carrie: Yeah. You’re not, not big into stuff. Overall. What would you say was the biggest adjustment that you feel like you had to make when we got married?

Steve: Well, there are these two fur balls that like space, like the couch and the bed and the couch I could get over, but the bed, yeah, that was difficult. They don’t know that they wanted to give up that spot next to you. Right? So that probably honestly, that was an adjustment for me. I’m used to sleeping just me and not having to worry about something jumping on me in the middle of the night, and the sound of meow outside the door or whatever the case is, but just having my place on the bed, fighting for that place with it.

Carrie: But you made friends with Lilo and Stitch because you started feeding them shortly after you moved in, Which was interesting. I was like, oh, okay, he’s taken over this responsibility. And so now when it’s dinner time, they don’t look at me. They look at you, they know who brings the food.

Steve: That’s right and I like routine. So it just made sense in the morning I get up, I get them. At night before bed, I get them food. It was an easy transition and they’re good. They’re, for the most part, they are well-behaved. They have their moment. 

Carrie: That’s true and one of the things that we did after we moved in together was we redecorated because I had been living in the house here with my roommate and just overall, the house needed a fresh coat of paint and the furniture was thrift store stuff. It was pretty run down or old and just needed to freshen things up. So we were able to, that was one thing that we did this year was, did some redecorating. This is funny in regards to the cats because now we have these accent chairs in the living room and it’s like Stitch has his chair that he likes to sit in and Lilo has her chair that she likes to sit in.

They don’t ever trade places, which is kind of funny to me. It’s like if we go out there in the living room, it’s like, sit, you’ll be in one chair and Lilo will be in the other chair. And I’m like, you guys are hilarious. So they’ve come to sleeping in the chairs now instead of trying to get in the bed with us because that way our foot doesn’t roll over on them or kick them or anything like that on intention.

We had a very unexpected year. Health-wise. Kind of wanted to share a little bit about that on the podcast. I got your full permission to talk about these things. And I said, you don’t have to talk about anything you don’t want to talk about, but I think everything that we’ve been through together and that you’ve been through has been really inspiring and has taught me a lot. I want to just talk about that.

Steve: Absolutely. 

Carrie: But it actually started out with a Kerry health challenge in the spring. I went to a very routine exam with an OB-GYN because we were talking about getting pregnant and then she said, hey, there’s this. You need to go get a mammogram and an ultrasound on that. And I thought, oh gosh, that sounds pretty serious and pretty scary. This is the timing of everything we were about to lose our insurance for about a month. So I had to kind of hurry and get this ultrasound before we lost the insurance. And I thought I don’t know if they’re going to want to do follow-up testing or biopsy something.

I don’t know that we’re going to be able to do that. How is it all going to work out? What was that like for you while we were kind of waiting for me to get the testing and then the day of the kind of waiting for me to contact you back?

Steve: That was scary because you’re not yet not knowing and your mind can play so many tricks on. Also just hearing that, we’re wanting children, we’re just dealing with life, we’re newly married. We’re all those things. I just got a new job. The insurance just changed over. It was about two and it hadn’t even changed yet. Like you said, and now I have this thought of, oh my gosh. Forget all that. What about your health? Who wants to hear that? Sure. I don’t want you to have to go. So yeah, I was a little bit scared.

Carrie: We both certainly have known people who have been younger and people who have gone through breast cancer. So it was like, oh gosh, you know, that couldn’t be me. I don’t know. I have to get this checked out. We got to check it out. It turned out to be nothing. It was fine, but a clear bill of health there moved forward. And then shortly after you started your job, you went for what was supposed to be a relatively routine eye exam and you had been telling me, my eyes hurt, my eyes hurt. And I said that’s just not normal. You need to bring that up when you go in for your eye appointment, you want to kind of tell a little bit more about that story. 

Steve: Sure and I knew that for a long time, I had sensitive eyes. So I didn’t think as much of it, but yes, I had been having a lot of eye pain. I just kept telling you that I had these eye headaches and so I go in for the routine checkup and they noticed a few things immediately. One that I had been dragging my hand across the wall while I was walking and I didn’t even realize really that I was doing that. It was such a habit, such a normal thing.

And also the bottom line, my vision was less than wonderful. We’ll just say it that way and so what seemed to be just a regular eye checkup? Nothing new, Hey, you’ve lost a lot of vision in your right eye, there’s a loss of blood flow, there’s this, there’s that we have so many things to check and you may have had an eye stroke. We went through a lot of scenarios. 

Carrie: Yeah. In the beginning, we were told it could be all kinds of things. We were originally told that your blood vessels were constricted in your eyes. We were told you could have had an eye stroke, which caused the vision loss. This seems strange because it wasn’t like you woke up one day and couldn’t see as well from your perspective. Now, we knew that you had other eye issues. You’ve had some issues with peripheral and colorblindness, but we didn’t know that that this was going on pretty much. They were like, whoa, you know, you could have a brain tumor, it could be causing this. You could have a clogged artery that could be causing this and we’re just starting to think here. Oh no, like what’s going on. 

There was another kind of fluke test that came back and we thought maybe there was something wrong with your kidney. So there for a short light, like two weeks to about a month period, we were gone, oh my gosh, are you going to die? Are you going to be okay? Like some of this stuff sounds pretty life-threatening and we have to get a handle on it and figure it out. 

Steve: And every time they would say something, it could be this, it could be that your heart starts racing a little bit. Part of me just wanted to know what, if you get to a point where you like, just tell me, just let’s figure this out and jump ahead, we still don’t really know fully, but, it’s always scary. Just not knowing is the worst part and I’ve heard people say about different things and that is so true. But we’ve got a great group of people around us, through friends, family, of course, church people who call us and tell us, or text us and tell us, Hey, we’re praying for you daily. Someone told me their child was praying for me, which was really sweet, just the different things. My good friend with cancer is praying. So it’s just helpful to hear those. 

Carrie: It’s definitely an encouragement when you’re going through something to have other people that care about you that are like lifting you up to God. So to make the long story short, you got a bunch of testing done. You had MRIs, ultrasound of your neck, you had follow-ups with doctors, you had visual testing. And then you got to this point where it was like you were going to have to see a specialist and a neurological ophthalmologist and got an appointment at Vanderbilt, but then we had to wait 10 weeks for the appointment.

Steve: Yes.

Carrie: It was a long wait. 

Steve: It was.

Carrie: Yeah, there were a lot of times where you were having pain and it was so hard for me because I couldn’t really do anything about it. Like I make it better or take that away from you. And based on some of the other things that we had been told, I was so scared that you were going to lose more vision. I know there were times when we were going through that where I just get up in the middle of the night and I’d read verses about trusting God and I just cry to say, God, you got to help him get us to the right doctors and get us where we need to go, because it’s just so sad and so painful.

Steve: And I think, honestly, that’s the hardest part is knowing that I said it was the not knowing, but seeing your spouse have to deal with it is worse because that’s not fair. No, that’s not fair to them. I have to wake up in the middle of the night. Well, it’s not fair to you. Let me say this correctly. Not fair to you to have to wake up in the middle of the night, worrying about me. I know that’s part of, we said for better or for worse, we did that in our vows. Right. But I get it. It’s still, I kind of get to the point where I’m like, man, whatever, but it’s not fair for you. That’s the hardest part. 

Carrie: You’re also that kind of personality where you don’t want anybody blessing over you or worrying about you or you don’t want to be bothering anybody or affecting them in that way. So this week was the week that we went to the neurological ophthalmologist. It was like nothing I’ve ever experienced and I’m sure nothing like you’ve ever experienced. 

Steve: No, I wouldn’t recommend that for the family funding.

Carrie: Yeah. You’re keeping your sense of humor about you. It’s in essence that they had this long hallway with multiple waiting rooms. You meet with a resident first, and then they send you off to one of the waiting rooms or, and somebody will pull you for a test. And then you’ll go to a different waiting room and be pulled for another test. You go back and you meet with the resident and the doctor. And then it was like, well, we need to do this other test. So we were literally up at Vanderbilt for four to five hours.

Steve: Yes and I will say this, Vanderbilt did a great job. They really did. Everyone there was so nice that I could, we could probably spend a whole episode just talking about all that they did and I’ll spare you. But it was probably the most difficult thing of it all was just one, I was hungry, even though we brought snack bars, you can’t prepare yourself for that kind of stress in that many hours of it. And having an ultrasound on your eye, both eyes. That’s interesting. So that was stressful, but yeah, I didn’t even know that was possible. That was a thing fairly new and it’s strange, all that goo in your eye is just, I’ll leave it at that because somebody is squirming right now. 

Carrie: Yeah. We get to the end of the appointment and he says probably, I think one of the worst things that he could say here we are bracing ourselves for, oh, gosh, you’ve got a degenerative eye condition, you’re going blind, you’ve got glaucoma, you’ve got this serious eye issue and we’re kind of bracing ourselves for something like that like you need surgery. He literally says I have no explanation for this pain that you’re experiencing and I have a couple of other hypotheses, but you’re going to have to go elsewhere to get that treatment.

You’re going to have to go to a different specialist because it’s not actually eye-related and that was rough. 

Steve: That was rough. You know, there was a moment we thought it could have been glaucoma and that was difficult to hear. But at least, in this case, you kind of want to label, or at least I did because then you can prepare for it. But not knowing is again, that’s difficult. Not why, why is this happening? Why do I not have a vision in my right eye or peripheral vision or the pain or whatever. And hearing also him say, well, it’s just weird. Your eyes are weird. That just seems like a strange word to use for that. I’m glad that I get to be a weird anomaly as he put it. That’s not what I wanted to hear. Right? 

Carrie: It’s hard for doctors when they’re looking at your symptoms and they don’t have a neat clean category to put you into. It’s like, okay, well, this kind of this piece looks like glaucoma, but this other piece over here does not look like it at all. And this piece right here, it looks like this, but this other piece, it doesn’t quite, it’s something that doesn’t quite fit with the diagnoses.

And so we’re trying a couple of different avenues. One, they gave you a different eyeglasses prescription that we’re hoping will help a little bit because maybe your eyes were strained somewhat from having an incorrect prescription from a previous provider. You’re going to be looking at some physical therapy on your neck, head to address may be a nerve that runs behind the eyes that could be upset or inflamed.

So those are kind of our next steps and we essentially got told, hey, come back and for months and we’ll see you and see if anything’s changed. Now, we’re back in January.

Steve: Which is difficult now and it’s so many people praying and they want an answer. And the best I can say is I’ll be back in four months and we have some other options. It is what it is. 

Carrie: I know that I’ve had a lot of spiritual wrestling, I think, through this process. And I talked about that a little bit earlier because you can have faith and you can pray. And certainly, people have prayed over your eyes that your vision would be restored and you wouldn’t have any more pain and sometimes it’s really hard to sit with that. God has not fully answered that prayer yet. God has not healed you yet. What is your process been like around it? 

Steve: I’ve said for me total healing, of course, that would be great. If there’s not total healing, let me just be who I’m supposed to be as a Christian, with it. I don’t want to be angry or bitter over something that nature. And it’s funny because this morning, but yesterday I’ll be honest. I was so angry. I really was because I wanted an answer. I wanted them to find something to say that, yes, you’ve lost vision in your right eye.

Carrie: And here’s why. 

Steve: Yeah and here’s why would have been great. Here’s why you had the pressure, but to sit down and ask me three or four times about the pressure with no answer is just gosh, this isn’t helping me at all, and no offense to the doctor because they’re just doing their job. 

Carrie: Right. 

Steve: But it’s just hard to hear that. So then this morning I wake up and I do a group devotion that we’ve been doing, and it talks about just relying on God’s grace and relying. Sometimes God is there with you. I forgot how I worded it and how you feel it most, in your worst times, or in your times of struggle or pain or whatever.

And I thought, well, gosh, that’s kind of now. I have to look at it and say, okay, you got this, I can’t, this is out of my control and I just have to deal with it. It’s what it is. It’s not a lack of bubble leading or that. He could heal me anytime He wants, and yet I have this and so that’s the lot that I have let’s roll with it. Let’s do with what we have. I cannot be a Christian because my eyes are hurting. That’s not an option. 

Carrie: Right. And you’re still serving in the church like that. You can be involved there. That’s another story, but we actually became the outreach directors, as I guess in December of last year, so has been great.

Steve: We get to meet so many neat and wonderful people. So that’s been a neat kind of takes my mind off things sometimes, it’s something else to focus on. So that’s good too. 

Carrie: I think it’s hard when we’re waiting on God for an answer or to move or for guidance. But I know that these really hard times also grow our character more than anything else and I’ve learned so much from just watching you and how you’ve handled your vision issues, the pain that you’ve experienced. And it’s really taught me a lot about humility. There are times where you have had to acknowledge other people. These are my limitations. These are some things that I’m not able to do, or I can’t see right now.

And that’s, that’s hard to say because you’re around a bunch of other people that can see. Okay, and maybe it’s too dark in the room or it’s too bright. And you’re having to say, yeah, I just, I can’t see that right now. 

Steve: I don’t know if it’s a pride thing, a guy thing. I don’t know what it is, but I always want to be able to do what everybody else is doing. You don’t want to say, that’s difficult, or when there’s a group of people, like the guys that say, hey, we all want to go here tonight. Oh, I can’t go because I don’t drive at night. So Carrie’s already somewhere else. I’m just going to hang out here at the house because that’s my safe space.

I don’t want to put anybody out and I don’t want to drive. So yeah, there are so many instances that I could give where it’s difficult in that sense. But it is what it is and it’s cool in a way though, because I am able to relate with a group of people that maybe others can’t.

So if there’s an older person who doesn’t see very well, I totally get that. Not because I’m old, although I’m getting older by the day here, because I get, I know what it’s like to have cataracts. I knew what it’s like to not be able to see. It’s difficult to give up the privileges of driving at night, even that was such a task. That’s very difficult. 

Carrie: It’s really been a big one. There will be times where we’ll be out and you can’t see because it’s too bright, too dark, some of your eyes are really bothering you that day. Something’s going on. Sometimes you have double vision and things are kind of blurry and you’ll just like reach out and grab onto my shoulder or onto my purse or something like that and just hold onto me. I think that that’s, that’s a picture of our Christian life. Like it’s dark like right now, things are somewhat dark and we can’t see and we have to hold on to Jesus. 

It’s not easy because, at that moment, you’re totally trusting me to take you where you need to go. I remember there was a time where we were at some fireworks for the 4th of July and we were trying to walk through this area. You said, I just can’t, I can’t anything about where we’re going right now, just make sure I don’t step at all or something. Sometimes the other thing you’ll do is you’ll watch my feet and where my feet are going, and that helps guide you in and we have this pattern of Jesus.

Jesus has already walked on the earth. Like He’s already done all the things. It’s like if we will pattern our lives, like after Jesus, it’s hard. If this not, I think for me, I’m a doer, I’m a get it done. I’m an advocate. So not having the control and really having to let go and say, okay, God, this is your department. You’re going to take care of this. I want to fix it for Steve, but I can’t and You love Steve more than I do. So I have to trust that You’re going to do it. I’m sure You’re going to, however, this is going to happen. Obviously, we pray that God’s glorified through this experience and we pray that whatever happens that we trust and know that He’s going to use it for good somehow in your life, in my life, and in the lives of other people.

Steve: It’s been, I don’t know how to say it, but as, as we have grown as a couple, it’s been such a blessing to see. I can brag on you for just a moment, you have man, you’ve scheduled my appointments for me. You advocate for me at a time when I don’t know what to ask. I don’t even get to a point where you just don’t even care anymore.

You do, but that’s how it feels sometimes. I’ve even had where my parents have said, oh my goodness Carrie, thank you, and it’s true. I feel the same way that they do. It’s such a blessing to have you there to help me there. Even just like the other night, we went out with church and, they decided to go to the family fund center or whatever that was. It was a good time but I couldn’t bowl. We tried to play some video games and that was, I guess, that was good, but you had to kind of walk me around in some cases and I didn’t get to a bowl, but I enjoyed watching you bowl and kind of forgive me, but kick butt and take names because you’re a pretty good bowler.

I feel like you hustled a little bit, but it was good. It was good to watch. Anyway, we have really learned some couples walk side by side and we walk me behind you and it’s just the way it is. That’s how much trust I have in you and faith and it’s worked out really well. Thank you.

Carrie: Yeah, it’s for me, I think it’s just really been a joy to have you in my life and it does. I know a lot of people probably would look at it as a sacrifice. I don’t, like, I just don’t feel that way because I feel like you’ve done so much for me as well. I know that if the shoe was on the other foot if something had come back and that screen and I was going through cancer.

You would be doing all those things too, you would be gone to the doctor’s appointments with me. You would be taking notes and asking questions, or I know that if things were reversed that you would be helping me out as well. It’s what you do as a married couple and some of you may have heard this or listened that marriage is not 50-50, because it just can’t be. Sometimes it really has to be like a hundred percent and a hundred percent, but there are times where your spouse may only have 25% to give because they’re sick, they’re hurting, they’re going through something. You have to help lift them up and provide that. You may have to provide that extra 75 that you need to stay strong as a couple.

It’s just part of the deal so we’re going to switch on a happier note and say that I was tracking my calendar and trying to figure out when I was ovulating, trying to get all the stars aligned because that’s what has control for people do. Right? Then I had bought some ovulation test strips, so forth, and then this stuff started happening with your eyes. I put the ovulation strips under the sink and I said, I can’t do this right now. That was the month that we got pregnant. 

Steve: That’s right. The moment you stop worrying about it and trying to control it as when God’s like, and now go. 

Carrie: Yeah. So at this recording were 13 weeks along and so when this comes out, we’ll be a little bit farther than that, but we’re super excited there. You just feel so blessed. Like this is our shining light in the midst of hard times is that God has blessed us with a child where we’re entering the old parents club. 

So we didn’t know if this was going to happen or be possible in, I think just knowing everything that I’ve been through in regards to losing my foster children and everything that you went through in a long period of singleness. Just coming to this point, we were able to say like, okay, this is really a gift. Like God is showing us a gift and everything I’ve been learning and reading about trust, I think has helped me in terms of the pregnancy. Just say, okay, if God has given us this gift, then I’m not going to worry about the baby or what’s happening because there obviously there are so many worries that you can have in pregnancy and wondering is everything gonna be okay and all of that. I’ve kind of slowed all of that down and being able to say like, okay, this is from God. We’re going to be okay. 

Steve: Yeah and it’s been kind of fun, kind of interesting. I’ve learned so much. One day I’ll come home and the baby’s the size of a raisin. Oh, isn’t that nice? It’s such a big, big baby and then the next thing you know it’s the size of a kumquat. Oh, what the heck is a kumquat? Wait a minute. I have to figure this out. How big is that? Then the next thing I know, hey, we’re the size of a lemon and by the way today, the baby has fingerprints and my fingerprints that’s amazing.

So it’s been fun and she tracks it, the things I learn and this is our baby, and dear God, I hope this baby doesn’t look like me. I hope this baby looks like Carrie. 

Carrie: But they are gonna at least start out looking like you because they’re not going to have a lot of hair.

Steve: They’re going to have more of the hair than me. I bet you. Anyway, s so many people ask me and us, do you want a boy or a girl. Maybe it’s because I’m older, I don’t know, but I’m like my answer every single time, I just want a baby. 

Carrie: Right?

Steve: I want a child. That’s what I want. Boy, girl, whatever. I just want a child and I’m excited about that. 

Carrie: Yeah. We’re just, we’re like, we’ll be happy with either one.

Steve: And I think the joy of seeing our parents’ faces. I know that my mom was so excited, so I’m sure mom will be listening to this and amen on that one. She was very excited to hear as was your mom and, and both of our dads. So it’s neat and they are excited. 

Carrie: Yeah. We had some fun with our families, for sure. We got them little onesies with their grandparent names. Obviously, because we’re having children later, we’ve had siblings that have had children. It’s not the first grandchild by any means, but still, they’re very excited for us because they know everything that we’ve been through and they knew that we were wanting to have a child.

So here we are big steps and I guess I just want to say in relation to that, I don’t know what things are going to look like for the podcast in the future. I’ve struggled because my first trimester has been pretty rough. There’s a lot of sicknesses and a lot of tiredness. I think I’m coming out of it at this point, which feels really, really good.

I’m feeling a lot more energy and less nausea. I know that there’s gonna have to be sometime off and focus on family and different things. So we’re going to do the best that we can and obviously kind of evaluate over the next year, what the podcast is going to look like, but also, what the continuation of it is going to be in January.

I’m planning to release episodes every other week, instead of every week. You have episodes to catch up on that will give you time to go back and listen to some of our older episodes. But I’m always looking for ways to expand and let other people know about the podcast. I’ve been a guest on different podcasts that can get the word out. We’re at a place where I really want to continue. I’m enjoying it. I love the interviews that I’ve been able to do. But obviously, there are definitely question marks about what is that going to look like with a baby and childcare and so forth and so on and time timing-wise to do things.

We may just have to get better about working ahead and figuring out what that looks like. I also want to make sure that being wise financially and invest resources the way that God would want me to. My goal for this next year is to have the podcast be fully fund itself. We don’t have, as we don’t have sponsors, but when we do have is a buy me a coffee opportunity where you can give money to the podcast.

I am hoping very soon. I keep dragging my feet on it, but maybe by the time this episode comes out, I really want to create a subscription service where people feel like they’re getting value every month. They’re not just donating money but they’re actually getting some relaxation audios. They’re getting question and answer time with me once a month. They’re getting maybe some workbook pages that I really want to be of value to people. Hopefully, we will be able to get enough subscribers that the podcast will be funding itself in a year. That’s the goal. What I’m shooting for God is good and He’s definitely provided the opportunity for us to be able to do this so far.

So I’m trusting Him with whatever the feature is. If I need to put it down for a season and pick it up again, or if I need to let it go, I just have to be open to whatever God wants me to do. I guess I just want to end on hope obviously because that’s how we like to nourish. I feel like the hope for me is obviously that we’re having a child. The hope is that you’re going to be able to see them and see them grow up. I’m hopeful that God is going to just protect you and protect your vision so that you won’t lose further vision and that God will relieve you of this pain. We haven’t seen it yet, but we will definitely keep you guys. 

Steve: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s I hope that you can do this for a long time because I know that you enjoy what you do and I’m biased, but I think you’re fantastic at it, but yeah, I’m excited. I’m excited. That’s been such a blessing or from the day we got married, even before that. But from the day we got married till now, and I’m excited for what the future brings and what great things you get to do with this platform as well. 

Carrie: Yeah. Thank you for sharing your story. I think it can mean being so open and vulnerable. I think it helps people because there are people going through their anxiety right now, or their OCD. They’re wondering some of the same questions like we have, like, why isn’t God healing me or why do I go to these doctors?

And I can’t get help or maybe they tried medication and it’s not working. I think it’s whenever you have a chronic condition, like anxiety or OCD, it’s a process really to get that help. I’m reading a book right now, which I really love and I won’t spoil it because I want to have the author on, but he talks about how we, our coworkers with Christ in our healing process in the journey. He’s talking specifically about anxiety, how God does His part and we do our part in that, which gives me hope that God knows obviously our limitations. God knows that we can only do so much on our part and we need that. We need Him, we need to rely on Him and we need that divine intervention.

As always, I hope this podcast really just encourages somebody today, to keep going. And if nothing else to know, like you’re not alone in your struggles. So there’s always someone who cares about you. There is even if you don’t feel like it. Yeah. Maybe if you feel isolated.

Steve: If you’re, maybe you’re like me and you don’t want to bother anyone. This is my 2 cents for what it’s worth. I’m not Carrie, don’t get me wrong here, but you’re not a bother. Somebody loves you. Somebody wants to see you better. They love you. They don’t want your problem to hold you back. Be a bother, be a smile and get better.

Carrie: Well, thank you to everyone who tuned in today. If you’d like to reach out to us, you can find us at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Today on the show, I’m privileged to be interviewing Rich Lewis, a speaker, coach and author.  Rich has been practicing centering prayer since 2013 as a way to relate and pray to God. He even wrote a book about it. 

  • What is centering prayer and how do we do it?
  • What are the purposes and benefits of centering prayer?
  • What are the challenges in practicing centering prayer? 
  • Basic steps of centering prayer
  • Rich Lewis’ Book:  Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

Resources and Links:

Rich Lewis
Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

More Podcast Episodes

Is Mindfulness for Christians?

Transcript of Episode 48

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 48. This is your host, Carrie Bock. On our show, what we do is focus on reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. In one of our very early episodes, we talked about prayer. We’ve also talked on the show about mindfulness in the past. Both of those were great episodes. I encourage you to go back and listen if you haven’t heard those. 

And today we’re talking with author and speaker Rich Lewis. A meditative practice called centering prayer. So I’m really interested in learning more about this and how it might be beneficial for people with anxiety.

Carrie: So thanks for coming in and talking with us Rich. I really appreciate it.

Rich: Sure. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. 

Carrie: So how did you get connected with and interested in centering prayer? 

Rich: I stumbled into it in late 2013 in a book. So prior to late 2013, I’d had read books by Carl McColman and he talked a lot about silence and how powerful and transforming it was. But I don’t remember him talking about a practice to do in this silence. So at that point, I just sit in silence but do not really have a practice and this was probably in 2012 and 2013. Then I was simply browsing Amazon looking for a book to read and I came across Amos Smith’s book, Healing the Divide: Recovering Christianity’s mystic roots.

In his book, he talked about a practice called centering prayer that he had been doing, I think for about 15 years at that point. So that immediately intrigued me because I was looking for something to do in this silence, which may sound funny, but I didn’t know what I was supposed to do in silence.

So I began investigating centering prayer and obviously, his book talked about it. Then I began reading other books on centering prayer. I started practicing centering kind of dabbling in it in late 2013 and then decided to, I’ll call it, jump into centering prayer, swimming, swimming pool on June 1st, 2014 and practice it more regularly on a daily basis.

So that’s how it happened. I’ve been attracted to silence and then I came across a practice that you can do in the silence in late 2013 and started exploring it. It resonated with me and I’ve been doing it since June of 2014. 

Carrie: I know silence can be intimidating for some people is, especially in the beginning. Maybe they feel uncomfortable with it. I’m curious for you when you started out was surges, like this internal craving in your spirit for more silence. Just a sense of like, life is so busy, so noisy, so much going on, like you needed that space. 

Rich: It just intrigued me. I guess I was looking for a new way to relate to God and a new way to pray to God. I guess I was all, I always considered myself an introvert, so I didn’t mind being alone at times. I go into crowds and have friends, but I don’t mind being alone or taking a walk alone or going in nature or going on a walker or a bike ride by myself. Since I had read silence was powerful. I thought it was the way to sit with myself and another neat way to just sit with God, rather than talk out loud to God. So it kind of intrigued me. 

Carrie: Okay. What is centering prayer exactly? How do you describe it to other people? 

Rich: Centering prayer has been around since what was created in the early 1970s by three Trappist monks. So, three Catholic priests saw a transcendental meditation going on and they wanted something for the Christian community. So they created centering prayer and the method itself actually was found by Fr. William Manager. One of the three Trappist monks kind of found the method of centering prayer in an old book called the Cloud of Unknowing.

And then the three of them, the two other priests, including himself sort of refined to practice and started teaching it to priests, clergy, and rolling it out to the public. So it’s been around, I guess, at this point for about 50 years. It’s considered meditation and a relationship with God and it’s silent wordless prayer.

I’ll describe how you do it. The guidelines are you sit comfortably with your eyes closed and then to begin your silent sit, you introduce what’s called a sacred word interiorly, and it really means you’re consenting to the presence and actions of God within. The word usually is anywhere from one to three syllables and it could be anything – love, ocean, God, Jesus, some type of short syllable word. Whenever you begin engaging your thoughts as you’re sitting there. What I mean by that is whenever you begin thinking about what you did before your sets or thinking about what you’re going to do when you get up from your sets, you realize that you’re beginning to engage your thoughts and plan and plot and that’s you’re supposed to let go of them.

So you’ve then re-introduced the sacred word. Let go of these engaged thoughts to bring you back to the present moment. Then you let go of the sacred word itself as well And you do that during the duration of the time that you’ve decided to sit, whether it’s five minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, you kind of repeat that.

It’s not a mantra. So there are mantra-based practices. Centering in this with centering prayers just used when it is needed. The last thing I’ll say about the sacred word is that it doesn’t have to be a word. Like if you’re an auditory person, it may work well. I started with a word and then I discovered I’m really more of a visual person. So I used an image and I would kind of picture the image and I wouldn’t like to paint it out and draw it out. But I would just think of that picture and think of that image to bring myself back. So if you’re a visual person, If you’re more of a physical person, you can use your breath. And then lastly, some people want to keep their eyes open, or they’re just afraid they’ll fall asleep.

So they keep their eyes open and stare at a spot four or five feet in the distance somewhere and kind of focus on that during this sit. So that’s a little bit about what is centering prayer. It is meditation, then a relationship with God where you are consenting to the presence and actions of God within and how long it’s been around and how you do it.

Carrie: Okay. So when people are selecting a sacred word or picture of that nature that they can use and kind of go back to, to redirect themselves to the practice, do they usually use the same one each time, or does it depend on the day? 

Rich: That’s a good point. So you should use the same word or visual image during the sit. Don’t change it because then you’ll spend more time in what’s my next sacred method instead of really sitting with God. So use the same method during these sets. Then if you discover, you want to switch a word, or I think I want to switch to an image, do that on your next sit. That is what we recommend and then kind of find the method that works best for you and then stick with it. So, as I said, I started with a word and then I switched to an image and I’ve been using the same image for years at this point. 

Carrie: What are some challenges that people run into when they start this practice? 

Rich: I guess the first thing they say is, they think maybe they’re failing at it because they have racing thoughts and they’re using their method numerous times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So they may think that they’re failing because they’ve used their sacred method a hundred times or 500 times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So that’s kind of one thing people say, and then another thing, some people will, they’ll say, I don’t have time for this.

I challenged them to do this sit anyhow. So for example, I would challenge people, make it. The first thing you do is you begin your day and then get up and, and start your day. Then I encourage people to add a second sit and I think that’s where some people will say, well, I don’t have time, I’m too busy and I’m not arguing. But I’ll say it has a way of giving you back time from my experience. Now I stop what I’m doing and do a second sit right before lunch, no matter how busy I am. Then when I look back at the day, I discovered that I was very productive and I got done what I needed to get done.

And in fact, I really needed this sit because the benefit of the sit is that you’re bringing this let-go posture that you do in centering prayer into your everyday life. You’re letting go of the tasks that you don’t need to do and focusing on the things that you need to do. So has a way of giving you back time, but you don’t know that until you actually try it. So that’s another thing that people will say, I don’t have time to do it. And I’ll say, I think actually it has a way of giving you back time if you trust the process and trust your sits. 

Carrie: I imagine that if you feel calmer after this practice or more at peace, and maybe your mind is more clear to prioritize like you were saying of what’s the most important thing that I actually need to get done today and what is really inconsequential or it can wait till tomorrow.

Rich: Right. That’s exactly what happens in the gesture or the posture of letting go and opening to the moment, opening to God, opening to life comes with you outside of your sit. You take that same gesture or posture with you, as you get on with your day. I have found it calms me down, slows me down and helps me focus on what I need to do, and lets go of what doesn’t have to happen today.

Carrie: I imagine that you have different experiences on different days with this, but what are some of the experiences or the takeaways that you’ve received from these moments of centering prayer? 

Rich: So well during them, it’s not your even special life go of whatever your experience is. So if you’re experiencing joy and peace, that’s wonderful. But you are really supposed to let go of that. Come back to your sacred method and just continuously open to the presence and actions of God within. Obviously, you may experience painful thoughts because a lot of times things can come up.

Our bodies and I guess our minds hold a lot of repressed thoughts. Some of them we don’t even know we have, and they start coming up. When we do sit, other times it forces us to come to terms with some of our things and they come up. So we are kind of let go of them and come back to the present moment with our sacred word. It’s more so outside of centering prayer is where you notice the benefits of your practice. During the practice, our job is just to show up and let go of us and all of our thoughts, all of our emotions, and be open to the presence and actions of God.

I think of it as reverse prayer. God is praying for me, what I need, and that can be many things. It could be inner peace, calm, confidence, wisdom for tasks, nudges to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things. So all of this is happening during my sit, and I’m noticing it’s outside of my sit where I’m noticing I feel more confident or I feel more energized or I seem to have wisdom for a task that earlier I didn’t know how to do or I feel like I’m being nudged to try and do something new. That scares me a little bit, but I know it’s going to help me grow. So it’s outside of your practices where you notice kind of the fruits of the practice from God, quite frankly.

Carrie: So it’s an opportunity for the holy spirit to minister to your spirit.

Rich: Right. I mean, that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re sitting with God and letting God act in you and just resting in the rest of God and trusting that God knows exactly what you need for even when you get up from your set.

Carrie: I really like that because there are times where we may feel lost spiritually and we don’t even know what to pray or what to ask God for. But just like you’re saying, God knows exactly what we need, even before we ask that’s scriptural. So if we take that opportunity to commune with God and say, okay, I’m here and I know that God is here, then things can happen that are probably even outside of our awareness.

Rich: Right and that encourages people. By all means, don’t give up your other prayer forms and I pray other ways as well. Just add a silent meditation, prayer like this, and see how it can enrich and complement your other prayer forms and enrich your prayer life. If you think about it, often we might sit with a friend or someone special or spouse and you don’t always need to be talking. You’re just together taking a walk or together sitting and we’re together watching a movie. It’s kind of the same thing you’re sitting with God and you don’t always have to have words with God. You just sit with God and it’s like sitting with a friend, a special friend’s words aren’t always needed.

Carrie: I like that and there’s the truth to that. Tell us about when people are first getting started. Is there a length that you recommend that they start with?

Rich: Sure. The temple of outreach is the main center and prayer organization that was created in 1984. They suggest two sits or get yourself up to two sits of 20 minutes. But obviously, that could be rather difficult for people and so I suggest taking baby steps. The first thing you do is you get up in the morning before you do anything. And then two, make it five minutes and then begin your day, and then slowly work your way yourself up from 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 minutes.

I then encourage people to do the same thing with the second sit and take a look at your life. Where does the sit best belong? Is it before lunch? Is it before dinner? Is it after dinner? Is it later in the evening? Only you can know when it makes the most sense for you and then take the same approach with that sit if you have to start with five minutes and work your way up to 20 minutes.

The last thing I’ll say is they suggest 20 minutes because sometimes they can take you that long, just as still you’re in the inner voice is going on in your head. But in my opinion, any silence is better than nothing. So there are times where my first sit is 20 minutes and then my one before lunch is 7 minutes or 10 minutes. I think it’s more important to take the time for silence because any silence is better than no silence in my opinion. 

Carrie: Okay. So what are some of the other benefits that you’ve seen in your life as you’ve been on this journey of centering prayer? 

Rich: When I think about myself before centering prayer, then after centering prayer, even though, obviously right now into the present moment, it definitely has changed me. I enjoyed life then, but I think I’m more excited about life simply because I think I’m more present in the present moment and enjoying the present moment, whatever that is. So a practice such as centering prayer helps you kind of let go and be present, whether it’s for the task you’re doing or enjoying or listening to the person in front of you, who’s talking or taking a walk and enjoying the scenery.

It’s helped me have a bigger excitement for life and to be more present for life and more present for people. It definitely gives me wisdom for tasks. I’ll have things just pop into my head during the day that I couldn’t figure out earlier. Some of them are, as one example what my daughter works at Wawa and it was a Saturday and I’m driving home after picking her up and a solution popped into my head on SA I wasn’t even thinking about it. The solution to a problem at work popped into my head. So I tried it quickly when I get home. I didn’t plan on working on Saturday, but I quickly tried it and it worked. So I’ve seemed to notice sometimes solutions to things start popping into my head that I was struggling with. I attribute it to my centering prayer practice and kind of clearing the clutter.

So that kind of stuff. I think I’m a much more confident person and I’m definitely more willing to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things, which is really what I’ve been doing since I’ve been practicing, centering prayer. I’ve created my website and I get out and teach people. I work with people one-on-one and I’ve written a book and I get out and talk to small groups or even one-on-one about the book. These are the things that I probably don’t think I would have done previously. I think they would’ve made me nervous just the idea of doing all those things would have made me very nervous. I never would even never have tried them, but centering prayer has given me a boost of confidence or God has given me a boost of confidence just to trust me and together we continue to move forward. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think that’s great and that’s so much has changed for you. We willl certainly put the links into the show notes regarding this, but I know that you wrote a book on centering prayer. Tell us a little bit about that. If people are interested, in reading more and getting their practice.

Rich: The book’s called Sitting with God: A Journey To Your True Self Through Centering Prayer and it’s hard to believe that next month it’ll be out one year. What caused me to write the book was, I had mentioned earlier that Amos Smith, I discovered centering prayer in his book that I read in late 2013. Then I began kind of an email dialogue with Amos via his website and then we became friends along the way.

I began initially working with him off of his site. He’s the one that actually challenged me to write a book. He saw that I had a big interest in centering prayer and he thought his book was more academic and that I might be able to approach it a little bit more laid back than his book did. He actually challenged me to write a book. So at the time, I thought he was crazy because I had never really written anything long, longer than six, seven pages in college. He challenged me to think about what is centering prayer and what does it mean to you and just write single sentences.

So I did that and then I came back to him with about, I remember 15 or so sentences and then in his mind he said, there’s your chapters, go write your book. I didn’t think it was as simple as that. So I picked one of them and then I took a couple of weeks to write that chapter, sent it to him and I just wanted to get his reaction. To my surprise, he thought it was fresh, neat and had something interesting to say. So at that point, it dawned to me that, well, maybe I really can do this. So I kind of checked in with my wife and I said, how do you feel about me taking time to write a book? And she said, do it. So I decided to write the book.

I didn’t want to take time away from my family so this is pre-COVID-19. The book actually got written mostly on Saturdays. Believe it or not. Saturday mornings in Starbucks, I would get up at about 5:30 in the morning, put on a baseball cap, grab my laptop, go to the local Starbucks, get a cup of coffee, open the laptop and that’s really where the book got written over. Probably two and a half years or so, because then the next step after that was really kind of editing the book and then approaching publishers to see who would want to publish it.

So that’s really how the book happened. It happened because Amos challenged me to, and I’m really glad he did because those Saturday mornings were neat spiritual exercises for me. Other than the one chapter I did, which talks about Jesus and what did the scholars say we know what is true about Him, where I had to do some research, listen to some of the scholars, and read some of them taking notes down. I then decided from my notes and what am I going to put in that chapter.  In the other chapters, I knew basically what I wanted to write about, and I just needed to let the words naturally flow from my heart, to my fingertips, and onto the laptop, so to speak. So it was a neat spiritual exercise and that’s how the book got done. 

Carrie: Okay. So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests this question. What is a story of hope? Like a time where you received hope from God or another person? 

Rich: So this is going back to about 1997. I’ve been married for five years at that point and my wife and I, joked around about this, that we’re on the five-year plan. We wanted to be married without kids for five years, but then after five years, we wanted to have a family and we weren’t able to, it wasn’t working the natural way. So we decided we needed to explore other ways to have children.

We did a lot of praying to God and the pastor of our church actually knew somebody within the church that was also adopting and they were adopting from Russia. So we were put in contact actually with that agency. Normally, it takes a lot longer, but in our case, it only took us about six months from contacting the agency, doing all the stuff you needed to do, and then flying over, to pick up your child.

It actually took six months and in six months of beginning contacting them, we adopted our first son, Benjamin Lewis. We actually saw him on his first birthday. So we adopted him the day after his birthday because I remember celebrating his first birthday in the adoption where he was living and then we actually legally adopted him. I believe it was the next day that was something where it was a lot of hope and praying about we wanted to have a family and God was telling us that I want you to adopt a child. Obviously, we adopted Ben, and then we went back to Russia in 2002 and adopted Gabriela.

So Ben is now going on 25 and Gabriela, we adopted her in 2002, she’s now 20. Then they say this happens, you’re just relaxed or whatever. We were able to have children and Joshua came along and that we have a natural Joshua or biological son, but all three of them are our children and they all love each other and we don’t consider them biological versus adopted. They’re just our three kids. Josh was 13. So we have a 13-year old, a 20-year-old, and a 24-year-old. That’s what God wanted us to do. God wanted the first two. He wanted us to help two children that needed a home and we did, and then he wanted us to obviously have Joshua. So we did. 

Carrie: So you are triply blessed with children.

Rich: It was a neat experience. I think when all said done, I think I was in Russia five times, never expected that I would be visiting Russia five times for with this adoption process. But now, it was a wonderful experience and we’re blessed with three great,  still call them kids, even though the two of them are not quite kids anymore. Three great kids. 

Carrie: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that story. That’s a good one. Well, I appreciate you educating me and our listeners on centering prayer. This definitely sounds like something I want to add to my practice even if it’s just in a small way and maybe it’ll grow and build from there. I hope that some of our listeners try this out as well. So thanks for coming and sharing with us. 

Rich: Thanks for having me, and hopefully this was helpful for your community. So thank you very much. 

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Podcasts Carrie has been on

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Podcasts Carrie has been on

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Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP has appeared on several different podcasts to cover a variety of topics and to promote the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast.

Ayan Robin Dixon of Circle 31 International Women’s Ministry interviews Carrie about her experience as a former foster mom.

Joe Sanok interviews Carrie about how to start a private practice and transition off insurance.

Adam Kol asks Carrie’s advice on how to use insurance coverage for counseling, how to obtain low-cost or free opportunities for counseling and how to find a therapist that’s right for you.

Tracy Lowery asks all kinds of questions about everything from finding a counselor to understanding suffering as a Christian.

Brian and Carrie discuss prayer and anxiety by using the movie War Room as a jumping off point.

Carrie breaks anxiety down in an easy to understand way in Jeff Allen’s first episode.

Carrie discusses the process she has created for attracting and onboarding the clients she enjoys working with most.

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31. Using the Gospel to Overcome Negative Self-talk with John Stange

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 31. Using the Gospel to Overcome Negative Self-talk with John Stange

I had the privilege of interviewing John Stange, a lead pastor, professor, coach, counselor, certified speaker and author. John has written several books and his recent one is called “Dwell On These Things.”

Pastor John Stange shares with us his struggles with anxiety and his great wisdom and insight on overcoming negative self-talk through looking at God’s perspective toward us. We also talked about dealing with perfectionism as I am also a recovering perfectionist. 

  • John Stange’s personal journey through anxiety, having sleepless nights, negative self-talk and excessive worries about “what if’s.”
  • Analyzing the root of his anxiety and preaching the truth of the gospel to his own heart
  • Factors that make people who are serving the ministry quit their role after a short period of time
  • “Why walk a defeated life when Christ already secured victory over our sins?”
  • Questions to ask yourself if you really want to understand Bible scriptures
  • Helpful concepts about seeing yourself through God’s eyes based on John Stange’s book, “Dwell On These Things”

Links and Resources:

John StangeDesire JesusDwell On These Things 

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Transcript of Episode 31

Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 31.  Today’s episode is with John Stange who is a pastor and author. He’s recently written a book called Dwell On These Things based on Philippians 4:8. John has some great wisdom and insight into overcoming negative self-talk and seeing ourselves the way that God sees us.

So let’s dive right in. 

Carrie: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. 

Pastor John: Well, happy to be here, glad to be with you.

Carrie: Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Pastor John: My name is John Stange. I have been in full-time pastoral ministry for 23 years and my wife and I have four children. Two are in college, two are in high school. And in the midst of my ministry, serving as a pastor I’ve also gotten quite involved in podcasting and writing and have really been pursuing both of those as avenues where I really have a great opportunity to hopefully encourage people in their faith and hopefully help in a variety of ways. But that’s where I’ve been spending a lot of my time in addition to my service to the church and my ministry, just to my family. 

Carrie: One thing that I’ve found really interesting about you in my research is that while you do have a degree in the Bible, you also have a master’s degree in psychology. How did that process develop? 

Pastor John: Well, one of the things that I noticed when I became a pastor is that a lot of your preparation to become a pastor trains you to teach and preach the Bible and teach and preach theology. And that’s very helpful, but there are two other aspects to your role as a pastor that you really need to figure out a way to invest in one is leadership. So I spent a lot of time just studying leaders and going to leadership training and reading books on leadership and really invested in that. But then the other thing that is typically asked of you is that you be involved in a lot of counseling. And so when I was deciding what to do for a master’s, I decided to pursue counseling and psychology because so much of my task as a pastor involves counseling.

And it probably wouldn’t surprise you to discover that over the course of this past year in particular, I had more counseling than at any other time in my ministry. To the point where I actually had somebody tally up in one given week how much time I was spending on counseling when things were at their worst. And they said a full 29 hours of my week is being spent just counseling. In addition to all the other things that you have to do. So I actually had to figure out a way to balance that a little bit better because it was becoming quite excessive, but that is definitely a role that pastors are asked to actually step in and help out with. And so I wanted to make sure I did it well. And when I got my master’s, I thought, you know what? I’m going to pursue counseling, psychology. Learn these tasks and learn these skills so that I could serve our church even better, hopefully.

Carrie: I think that’s an important point because you can be a really great teacher and lack people skills and being a pastor, you have to find that balance between being able to communicate the word of God and also being able to relate and lead people, like you just talked about.

Pastor John: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And I’ve seen that a lot where people are really skilled in a particular task, or they have a lot of knowledge in a particular area, but they really struggle to take that from their brain to another life. And because that relational piece seems to be missing, so yeah, I agree.

Carrie: I’ve also interviewed a few people on the show who started out as pastors and ended up becoming therapists. And those stories are really interesting as well as kind of like an outflow of just the ministry that they were doing. 

Pastor John: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. That’s great. 

Carrie: We’re talking about anxiety today and incorporating that with spirituality, obviously. And I’m curious about your particular struggles with anxiety. 

Pastor John: Yeah, it’s interesting because I don’t know that at one season of my life, I would have really thought of myself as being particularly anxious. In some respects, I tend to think I’m an easygoing person. And then as life went on and I took on more responsibilities and as I was trying to lead my household well and try to lead our church well, I started to notice seasons where I would really struggle to sleep. 

I’m not a great sleeper to begin with. So I’m just going to confess that I think there’s something biological there that factors into that, but it was even worse than normal. And I can remember certain times where I would just find myself looking out the window of my bedroom, just looking outside, wondering in my mind why can’t I sleep.

And then as I try to lay my head down on the pillow, I would be thinking about all these what-if scenarios. What if this happens with your family or what if this happens with the church or what if this happens with your finances, all sorts of things. And I realized that I was becoming a rather anxious person.

I don’t know that I always demonstrated that to other people, but within my own mind. In fact, I actually think I tried to make a pretty strong effort to not demonstrate that to other people just to kind of portray that everything was fine. But in my own mind, I have to admit to you I really have gone through seasons where I felt particularly anxious and kind of went on a journey to try and figure out what’s at the root of this and what can I do that would be actually be helpful so that this doesn’t become such a dominant feature in my life.

If I’m going to be doing the things that I think God’s called me to do, I can’t be paralyzed by anxiety constantly. And I can’t give this full sway over myself. So I need to call it out into the light and I need to do something that’s going to actually help me overcome it.

Carrie: What was that process like for you? 

Pastor John: I had to kind of analyze what was at the root of it at first. And what I noticed about myself is that I was trying to control too many things, and I was trying to do too many things without help. And I don’t know if that was a pride issue. I think that’s part of it. I, you know, I think certainly it was a pride issue in some respects, but I also think it comes from this thought of not wanting to burden other people with your problems.

And then also just this thought that sometimes you get in your mind when you’re trying to lead, this is your responsibility. So you just think, look, this is my job. I have to handle this. I can’t give this to somebody else. I just have to do it. Right. It’s just my role. And so the first thing I needed to do was just figure out what was at the root of this.

And again, it was just control issues and a desire not to burden other people and just, you know, the burdens that come from leadership. But the solution for me was multifaceted. And a lot of these things I think come back to preaching the gospel to your heart, where sometimes if you’re trying to do too much, it’s almost like you’re trying to take Christ’s job and do it instead of relying on him to be the strength that we need. And so it was almost like a works-based false gospel that I was starting to preach to my heart that can be very unhealthy. And when I phrased it that way in my mind, my theological triggers went off and said, “Wait a second. You can’t preach something false to your own heart. You have to stop this.” And so I thought, all right, well, what does it look like to actually apply the truth of the gospel to my own heart? What does it look like to be content in Christ and to trust him to do the things that I can’t do and to rest in the fact that he is perfect? I am not, and I’m fine with that.

And so this was part of the journey that I went on, but when I started analyzing that seeing what was at the root and then preaching the truth of the gospel to my heart, that really made a huge difference. 

Carrie: I can really relate to that because I started this podcast and I was doing entirely too much. And I ended up hiring an assistant this year and it was super scary in the beginning.

Just the sense of like, “Okay. I’m like, yes, it’s a great thing that I have help, but I’m also like having to let go of control of things that I’ve been doing and what’s going to happen if I start letting go of that control and somebody else is gonna take over, and I think we do that with God so much in our own lives. We try to take control over things that we have no control over, even things like our own health like I’m up at night worrying about all of these things that could be happening to me are going on. And instead of saying, okay, I don’t have control over this. God loves me. He cares about me. He’s for me.

And I think that’s what you’re talking about in terms of having a theology of how God sees us. And really speaking that into ourselves is so important. 

Pastor John: Yeah, exactly. I agree. A hundred percent. 

Carrie: So, talk to us about negative self-talk because I think a lot of people really struggle with that. And what have you found to be helpful in your life?

Pastor John: There’s a variety of things that I have found helpful. And one of the things that I’ve noticed that is helpful for me is to know that I’m not the only person that wrestles with this. So when you serve in a public role, right now you’re putting yourself out there publicly doing a podcast, right?

So you’re just basically, you’re subjecting yourself to the opinions of others. And that could be a challenging task to do no matter what role you do it in. So you can imagine when I became a pastor I was subjecting myself to the opinions of many, many people and my opinion being sometimes the harshest and frequently, I would find myself preparing a message.

So I’ll use a sermon as an example. I’d prepare a message. I’d have it all straight in my head. I’d get up and I’d preach it. And then afterwards I’d have this thought that it didn’t go as well as I thought, or maybe the feedback I got on it wasn’t exactly what I was anticipating. And I would find myself spending the rest of Sunday beating myself up over perceived weaknesses in my presentation or times when I tripped over my words or ways that I could have said something better or something that I forgot to share that I meant to share or someone’s reaction that I misinterpreted or whatever it may be. And I just have all these thoughts going through my mind. Just the imperfections of what I had just shared and all this negative self-talk about, oh, why can’t you be as good of a speaker as this individual or that individual. And that’s a very unhealthy thing to start drilling into your mind. And I would suspect that’s probably one of the contributors to a lot of people who serve in public ministry roles quitting after a short period of time because they just spent a lot of time in self-accusation instead of refreshing their heart with the truth of the gospel and preaching the same message to their own heart that they just preached to their congregation. And eventually, I needed to get to the spot where I started to see the opportunities that I was being given to speak or to lead as opportunities to help people, not opportunities to look good while you’re helping people. And what I mean by that is this: Yeah it was a big change in my mind. I thought I used to wrestle with after I would preach a sermon, or lead a meeting, or whatever it may be. “How did you look doing that? Did you do okay?” And it was basically “how did you look doing it?” And then somewhere along the way, the Lord helped me to flip that in my mind to say, “did you help somebody?” And judge what I had just done by whether or not I was seeking to glorify God and help people. And when that became the measuring stick that really helped me with probably the major area of negative self-talk that I was wrestling with. Just trying to understand what it looks like to glorify God and help people Instead of worrying about how I looked while I was trying to do it.

Carrie: I think that’s been probably one of the greatest gifts that this podcast has ever given to me, just like, you know, through the Lord’s work, it’s showing me that it doesn’t have to be perfect to help people and I consider myself a recovering perfectionist. So I know that I have to go back and listen to these episodes and we joked. Before I hit record, there was a squeaky chair in one of them and it drove me crazy like I can hear that chair. And probably other people are listening to this in their car or they’re in the bathroom getting ready in the morning and they don’t care. You know, they’re probably not even noticing that. And somebody is going to be really blessed by that episode. But here I am and all I’m focused on is that annoying chair in the background.

Pastor John: Right. Instead of thinking of all the ways that you’re producing helpful content, you’re just hearing that chair that needs a little grease or a little oil.

Carrie: Right. So now I’m like, you know what? It goes out. There’s some people that like it and it’s helping some people and that’s all it really matters and it doesn’t have to be perfect in order to benefit other people. So that has been an unexpected gift, I guess, of going through this process.

You actually were really gracious enough to send me a copy of your book, “Dwell on these things” and I am really enjoying it. So I appreciate you for writing it, and you encourage readers to dwell on 31 different truths in God’s word. It’s written a little bit like a devotional, right? To kind of read one each day.

Pastor John: Yeah, it could be used that way for sure. Yeah. I wanted it to be useful in that way. If someone wanted to use the chapters in that kind of fashion, they definitely could. 

Carrie: So would you be willing to share a few of these with us and how they can transform our thinking and self-talk. 

Pastor John: Sure. There’s a variety of things that are mentioned in the book that kind of point us to things that the Lord is trying to communicate to us that sometimes we forget to communicate to ourselves, or we forget to repeat to ourselves after he’s communicated them. And so when you look through the book, you’ll see on day one, we talk about the fact that you are loved more deeply than you realize, and we start off the book with that concept because we want that to be a baseline for what we’re thinking about as we start to adopt God’s perspective toward us as our perspective toward us, as well as we work through the book, we talk about the blessing of walking by faith rather than by sight to experience greater joy.

I think a lot of times we think that there are all sorts of things we need to see ahead of time or know ahead of time to be able to actually experience contentment in life. But scripture shows us that we can walk by faith. We don’t have to walk by sight If we’re going to experience the greater joy that the Lord wants us to have.

I think something else that’s in the book that is most certainly a helpful concept for any of us. If we’re feeling anxious or just worried about a variety of things is the fact that scripture encourages us to have hearts that are ruled by the peace of Christ. And so when we get into the third section of the book that we talk about letting your heart be ruled by the peace of Christ.  And I can tell you just from experience, there are all sorts of things that I have tried to soothe my heart within this world or all sorts of things that I have told myself, this will bring you peace if you just acquire this or achieve this or obtain this or whatever it may be. And there’s nothing this world offers me that has ever produced lasting peace in my mind or in my life.

And when you look at what scripture teaches us, scripture teaches us that we can let our hearts be ruled by the peace of Christ. And when his peace is ruling in our heart, we’re actually being ruled or led by something that’s everlasting, not something that’s temporary, not something that’s just here for a moment and then goes away.

Some of the chapters in the book talk about ways in which we can live out the things that the Lord has taught to us. And so there’s a chapter where we talk a lot about giving grace to those around you. And that can be a very helpful thing for us internally as well, because we start to realize that we don’t have to demand perfection from ourselves. And we don’t have to demand perfection from others. And as recipients of the grace of God, we can demonstrate the grace of God to other people. And I love what scripture tells us in the book of acts, where it reminds us that Christ taught that it’s better to give than it is to receive.

And in a moment like that, where you’re giving grace to somebody else. I think we even have the opportunity to see how that plays out where just giving grace to somebody that ends up being a blessing in our own life and in our own heart. So those are some of the concepts. There’s 31 different concepts that we focus on in the book, but those are just a few of them-just a sample of some of the things that are in the book that I truly hope will be helpful to others. If they’re trying to develop a perspective of what does it look like to actually talk to yourself like God talks to you and repeat a message to your heart that actually lines up with the truth of his gospel. 

Carrie: That’s good. I know that in my counseling practice specifically, I work with a lot of people who have OCD sometimes like there’s a form of OCD called scrupulosity. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast before. It’s where you have all of these intrusive thoughts about God. You know, maybe God is angry at me. Maybe I’ve sinned. Maybe I’m going to hell, even though I know that I’m saved, those types of things people tend to ruminate on. And a lot of times people I work with are somewhat spiritually confused because they’ve sought out teachings to try to soothe some of this from a variety of different sources. You know, this person says you can lose your salvation. This person says you can’t lose your salvation. How do I know who God really is? And I know a lot of times people say, “okay, well in order to know God read the Bible that’s his word that’s his love letter to you.” How do we form this healthy theology of an understanding of who God is if there are so many different teachings that are saying are based on scripture. 

Pastor John: Yeah, that could be a tough thing for a new Christian, in particular, to try to discern. Thankfully we have the internal witness of the holy spirit and he points us in the direction of truth. So I believe that any suggestion I give needs to come under the fact that the holy spirit will actively point us in the direction of truth. I do believe he does that. So I would encourage anyone that’s really wrestling with that to just begin with prayer and trust the holy spirit to lead you in the direction of truth. And then as we’re looking at scripture, I think it’s also helpful to know that when you’re reading through the Bible if you really want to understand the Bible, you need to ask the question, what does this section have to do with Jesus? Or maybe I could say it this way: how is this portion of scripture trying to point me to Christ?

So if I’m in the book of Genesis, I need to be asking that question. If I’m in the Psalms, I need to be asking that question, but I mean the gospels or the letters of Paul or the general letters or the book of revelation, the whole thing is trying to point our minds to Christ. And specifically, when you look throughout scripture, you see the message of redemption as the Lord is trying to redeem lost humanity. And he’s trying to redeem fallen creation, right? Like it’s all, there’s this message of redemption all throughout. And so that points us to the gospel and the gospel is if you want to summarize the gospel, you could summarize it this way. It’s the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ.

And so in Christ lived the perfect life that we could never live. He lived that on our behalf. He walked a mile in our shoes. He’s our merciful sympathetic high priest. He knows all details of all things, and he actually walked it and lived it. And he did it perfectly without sin. And then in his death, he paid for our sin.

He took our sin upon himself so that ultimately we could be justified so that we could be declared righteous because he who knew no sin became sin for us. And then in his resurrection, he defeated the power of sin, the power of Satan. And the power of death. And he shares that victory with all of us who believe in him with anyone who trusts in him.

So the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ, I think it all comes back to that. So now, you know, let’s think about some issues that sometimes we deal with and let’s plug it into that metric. If I’m dealing with, and we were just joking a few moments ago about perfectionism and the desire to kind of get everything right.

You know, whether the chair’s squeaking or whether all the words we say are exactly right, or whatever it may be. We deal with perfectionism. Well, let’s plug that into the gospel. Well, scripture tells us that we are not perfect. But Jesus is, and he came to live the perfect life for us because we couldn’t do it, which tells me I need to stop pressuring myself to be perfect because I’m not perfect.

And if I’m pressuring myself to be perfect, I’m preaching a false gospel to my heart because Christ came to this earth and was perfect for me because in my own strength I couldn’t be perfect. And so, you know, so that’s one element of how I think preaching the gospel to our hearts. Actually helps and it helps point us in the right direction. But then when you get to issues like Christ’s death, you know, I think sometimes we think that we have to be some sort of sacrificial martyr who can’t ask for help or can’t ask for assistance that we need to somehow, you know, die for our own sin or suffer for our own center, whatever it may be. And yet Jesus came to this earth to die in our place because we couldn’t die for our own sin ultimately, and have any sort of redemptive aspect come out of that.

And so Jesus who is perfect died in our place. And then scripture tells us that he rose from the grave. He defeated sin, Satan, and death. And so that victory gets shared with me because I trust in him. He’s already secured that victory. So what sense does it make for me to walk a defeated life or to just spend all this time telling myself how I’m defeated in this area or this area, or this area? Christ already secured victory over my sin Christ secured victory over my faulty thing.

He secured victory over death. I don’t even need to live in the fear of death because he’s already secured victory over it. He defeated death and even the deception of Satan or the accusation of Satan scripture tells us Satan loves to accuse God’s people. And I think sometimes we repeat Satan’s accusations in our own minds, almost like we’re trying to do his job for him. And that comes right back to the resurrection as well because Christ secured victory over sin, Satan, and death. And so Satan is defeated. So I don’t need to act like Satan is victorious. He’s been defeated. And so for me, it comes right back to preaching the gospel to my heart and understanding that the message of the gospel is woven all throughout scripture.

And if someone teaches something that does not line up with the truth of the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ, then that gives me a good metric to know how I can actually filter that out and not welcome that into my thinking. 

Carrie: That was a lot. That was good though. It was a lot. I was really trying to filter in thinking through some of the things that we just talked about like is God mad at me? Well, you know, God loves you. God loves you. He sent his son to die for you. There’s no greater love than that. Nobody else is going to be out here giving their life for you. 

Pastor John: Right. When you look theologically, what scripture says, it says, you know, prior to coming to faith in Christ, we were under the wrath of God, right?

We were like, yes, you were under the wrath of God. It speaks of that in the book of Ephesians. Okay. But then Christ came to this earth and took the wrath of the father upon himself so that we could become objects of mercy. Instead of objects of wrath. And so scripture actually says, you’re an object of mercy now. So if scripture is telling me I’m an object of mercy and that Christ already took the wrath of the father upon himself, then why don’t I just believe what it says instead of just trying to make it up. You know, it’s like, we’re trying to make up the opposite of what scripture says because we want to make ourselves feel bad sometimes.

And it’s like, let’s not torture yourself. You know, just believe what it says and believe what he is. 

Carrie: Or sometimes we try to take over maybe the role of the holy spirit and almost like over-convict ourselves. Sometimes people can air on one side or the other, right. Then they’re never open to correction or conviction. But then on the other side, it’s like, let me pick apart and confess every single thing I’ve done. Even the things that I know I’m already forgiven for. I keep bringing up the past sins over and over and over again. And we’re just really torturing ourselves at that point. 

Pastor John: Yeah. You’re absolutely right.

Yeah. We’re prone to extremes. 

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So tell us where people can find “Dwell on these things”.

Pastor John: “Dwell on these things” can be found literally anywhere. So you’ll be able to find it on Amazon. You’ll be able to find it at Barnes and noble. You’ll be able to find it pretty much any store you go to and which I’m really excited about the wide release that the book is receiving. But if you’d also like to find out some more information about it, or if people would like to read the first three chapters for free and just kind of see if it’s for them, just go to my website: desireJesus.com and you can read the first three chapters of the book right there on the website for free.

The publisher gave me permission to be able to post that. And so that’s right there. You’ll see a link to it right on the front page of the website. 

Carrie: That’s great. And we’ll put a link in the show notes too. So since our podcast is called hope for anxiety and OCD, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Pastor John: Certainly. So in 2008, my wife and I feel like the Lord was calling us to move to Langhorne, Pennsylvania, which was a couple of hours south of where we were living up in the Pocono region of Pennsylvania. And we felt like the Lord was leading us to move here and replant a church that was just about to close down.

And you know, shut its doors forever. And so we moved here to get involved in church planting, church revitalization. And I remember at the time being very convinced that the Lord had called us to do that, but that doesn’t come with any guarantees. So when you’re moving to a new area, you’re not certain if you’re going to be able to connect with people. And I believe that the Lord was paving a way for us to do so. And in my heart, I did believe that it was all going to work. But I remember at one point very, very early in the process, this was just a couple of days or a couple of weeks, I guess I should say before we moved down to this area, I agreed to do a wedding down in this area, in the building that we were going to use. So in the church building. And I remember at that point, there weren’t really very many people that were part of the church. There were just about six or so active people that had been part of the church that hung on to help us plant the new church. And I remember as the wedding was about to get underway, I started watching people pull into the parking lot and I saw one car pull in and another car pull in and another car pull in and before I knew it, the parking lot was filled and I thought, wow, this is exciting to see for this wedding. I’m just hopeful that the day comes when we have worship services here, that people will actually become part of this church, that we actually have the opportunity to build a church. And I just remember looking out at that full parking lot and just praying to the Lord, just a very simple prayer.

I just prayed, Lord, may it be so. May this be the type of thing that we get to see again when this church really gets underway, not just for a special event, but for the believers gathering together for worship gathering together on a Sunday morning gathering together mid-week whatever, whatever the Lord willed. And so I just remember having filled with the hope of Christ in that moment. And just a confidence that the Lord was going to help facilitate that even though I was certainly tempted to drift toward anxiety in that process because it was certainly a big step of faith for our family to come and, and move to a new area and try and get the church going.

But I remember sometime after that, a few years after that, when the parking lot really was filling up on Sunday mornings and looking at that in my mind, coming right back to standing on that porch and thinking, all right, Lord, this is wonderful. You answered that prayer. You filled us with your hope.

You gave us confidence in you. And now we get to see with our eyes, the type of things that we were seeing by faith for the past several years. And that was a real blessing to me. It was confirmation that when the Lord leads you in a particular direction, it’s best to just obey because he’s got the details already figured out. And sometimes he asks us to make big steps of faith. And so we just go and we get to see what he has planned on the other side of that step. 

Carrie: It’s so beautiful when you’re able to just look back and see how far the Lord has brought you in a particular area and things, and all the challenges that there were, I’m sure along the ways of like, are we ever going to be able to do this? Is this ever going to grow? That’s awesome. 

Pastor John: Yeah. You’re right. Big challenges. 

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for being on the show and talking with us about preaching the gospel to our hearts. I think it’s been a great conversation. 

Pastor John: Well, Carrie, thanks so much for having me on. It’s been a real pleasure.

_____________________________________

I felt like we had a little bit of therapy on myself today on this episode, talking about my perfectionism and difficulty letting go of responsibilities and delegating them to my VA. In all seriousness, I really needed those reminders today that Jesus has overcome sin, death. Nothing is too difficult for him.

As I like to remind myself on a regular basis, God is way bigger than my problem. So allow that to encourage you today. If you would like to stay up to date with what’s going on on the podcast, you can join our email list at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Thank you so much for listening. 

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of by the world counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam. 

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

29. God, Feelings, and Theology with Aron Strong, LMFT

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 29. God, Feelings, and Theology with Aron Strong, LMFT

I had the privilege of interviewing  Aron Strong, LMFT, a former pastor turned therapist.  Aron talks about how having a healthy theology about God and HIS feelings, helps us understand ourselves as we grow closer to God.  

  • Does God have feelings? What emotions does God feel?
  • The importance of knowing God and understanding His emotions
  • God is for us, not against us
  • Understanding human emotions
  • Why did God create emotions? 
  • To negate emotions is to misunderstand who God is. 
  • How to manage intolerable and overwhelming feelings
  • Brief overview of the modality created by Aron called Attuned Systemic Repair


Links and Resources:
Aron Strong, LMFT 
Pathway Counseling
In Relationship Marriage Retreats

Support the show 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 29

Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 29. Today, I was able to interview one of the local counselors here, Aron Strong. There were so many different things that Aron could potentially speak to that we really had to narrow it down as far as what he was going to talk about today. We landed on discussing the intersection between having healthy theology about God and God’s feelings, which helps us understand our feelings since we’re created in his image. This is a conversation that I believe we really can get a lot out of. So let’s dive right in. 

Carrie: Welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about you. 

Aron: My name is Aaron Strong. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and an approved supervisor. I worked in church ministry for 15 years as, pastor and some other roles. I am now the founder and the director of pathways counseling in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I’m the co-founder of a company called the In Relationship that focuses on helping therapists in the general public develop healthy relationships in a lot of different contexts.

And we have online courses and marriage workshops and other stuff. And then I’m also the creator of a therapy called Attuned Systemic Repair and we’re developing that. I’ve been married for over 20 years. I’ve got a 15-year-old son and a bunch of pets. That’s a little bit about me.

Carrie: Are you a dog or a cat person?

Aron: We have both, 2 dogs and 4 cats. We didn’t always have cats. We had a dog once that thought of cats like tennis balls. And so that didn’t work out well. We had her for a long time. When she finally passed of old age, we got some new dogs that were a little more cat-friendly and so now we have a diverse brood in the home.

Carrie: That’s interesting. You’re the second person that I’ve interviewed that started out as a pastor and then became a therapist. Can you maybe briefly tell us a little bit about what that transition was like for you or how God brought that about. 

Aron: Sure. Well, for me, it was a little traumatic. I didn’t plan on leaving the ministry.

My wife and I had met on staff at a church in California outside of Fresno in a town called Clovis and worked at that church for 13 years, 12 years. And then moved across the country to Tennessee, to work at a church out here. That didn’t work out. We had thought it would pretty quickly.

And so I was there for about a year. And then I was out of ministry and left wondering what was next and prayed and sought counsel. I didn’t feel called back in the ministry, which was kind of shocking for me. I always thought I’d always be a pastor and working for a church, but then God led me to pursue marriage and family therapy.

And that wasn’t something that was ever on my radar. And so it was a little surprising for me. I enjoyed it as a pastor, but when you’re a pastor, you’re expected to know a lot more things than you actually know. And so it was always terrifying for me. So if I was going to do that and I was going to do it right, and what that meant grad school and the whole deal.

And so I talked to my wife about it. We prayed about it, felt it was right and then at 40 years old, I had changed careers. 

Carrie: That is an inspiration to somebody out there that’s listening that feels like they need to make a change and do something different. So that’s awesome for you to be brave. 

Aron: Yeah, I think I’m probably better at this than I was working for the church.

I hadn’t quite expected that. It was a hard transition. Working full time plus doing grad school and an internship and trying to manage a family. It was not an easy transition, but it was definitely worth the price. And so I’m very, very pleased to be where I am now.

And you know, that God called me into this and I still get to do a lot of ministry. It looks a little different than it used to, but I still do a lot of speaking at churches and training and kind of integrating faith and theology with clinical therapy. it’s neat to be able to draw from both.

Carrie: Absolutely. That’s a good segue into what we’re talking about on the show today, which is essentially how our theology of feelings, how we understand God’s feelings and our feelings and those interactions and connection pieces. How was it helpful for us as Christians to understand that God is a God who has feelings?

Aron: Well, it’s really interesting is our perspective of wondering about God’s feelings. And I think we often forget that we’re made in his image. So the reason why we have feelings is because he has feelings. It’s not hard for him to understand how we feel. We actually have all his feelings. That’s how it works.

God has all the feelings and we don’t think of him that way. Scripture shows all those feelings of anger, joy, and sadness. He feels hurt. There was at least one time he felt horrible. There was at least one time he felt regret, making the world around the time of the flood. He feels longing. He knows what it’s like to feel misunderstood.

He knows what it feels like to love someone who doesn’t want to love you back. He feels weary at times. He knows what it’s like to feel jealousy of wanting the affection of the one that you long for. All of those things that are regular experiences, or feelings that he experiences and scripture talks about.

So we can feel comfort in knowing that we have a God who not only understands our experience, our experiences help us connect to who he is, and we have a better understanding of who God is because of our experience.

Carrie: That’s really good. I think a lot of times people focus energy on the maybe negative feelings of God like God must be mad at me. God must be disappointed with me. And it’s hard to find that balance in understanding that there are times where God may be upset about our behavior, our sin, but at the same time God delights in us as his children. Our own woundedness really clouds how we see God based on our interactions with caregivers and maybe former spouses, other things that have really messed with that view, harmful church experiences.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Aron: Yeah. It’s interesting that even before we’re born we have feelings. Feelings, or sensations that happen in our body that communicate to us about our experience of something and the part of our brain that does the processes. Physical feelings also process emotional feelings.

It all runs through the vagus nerve in our bodies. We literally feel our feelings in our bodies and that begins in utero. We’re born feeling feelings, but what we don’t have as a language to describe what’s happening to us. So our understanding of feelings comes through our development and our interaction with parents and caregivers and other people in our lives.

Then based on however our family manages emotions or has language for them, or doesn’t talk about them. We try to build models. We don’t think about it, but we just do of how to manage feelings and what that means. In that context then we kind of do something very similar with who we believe we are and who we see God as.

As we build our models of who God is based on our interactions from others and our own felt experiences in contexts. And we construct ideas of what those things are out of the lack of knowledge or direct interaction with him to know him personally.

And so we don’t know him personally, then we kind of like we do with celebrities or other people in our lives, we don’t know them, but we build ideas of them based on what we hear and what we see and how people talk about them. We may read a report that they did, but we don’t know them personally to understand what’s really going on inside. So part of our experience in our faith journey is beginning to understand who God is personally and how we interact with him and learn from him and understand how he sees us. Helpfully, a lot of our personal experiences in life help us once we have a good framework to understand them, how to understand who God is and how he sees us and being a parent is probably a great example of that. Because I can both love my son and want to murder him in the same moment. That’s what it’s like sometimes no one knows how to hurt you like your kid when they’re being rebellious. I remember the first time, you know, um, my son told my wife, he didn’t like her, and the pressure feelings because she loves him so much. So there are times that you can absolutely love someone and be disappointed in them, but that’s not the totality of your belief in them because you love them.

And when you understand the totality of God’s love for mankind and for us individually, then his anger or his jealousy or his disappointment, or those things have a context that isn’t against us. God’s feelings are always for us to draw us into relationship. And when we understand the context of how God manages and expresses his feelings, we begin to understand what a healthy expression of anger or a healthy expression of jealousy might look like. We tend to do ours. It’s very self-centered and about ourselves, but God’s feelings are for us. He’s jealous for us. Not against us. He’s not disappointed to drive us away. His disappointment wants us to live up to all the good things that he has in store for us and wants to draw us into the fold.

And so those things aren’t to drive us away, they’re always to draw us closer to him. 

Carrie: That’s really great. I like how you, how you put that. If we have this understanding of God’s love like at the deepest level that we as humans can really understand it because I don’t think that we can fully grasp the depth and the height of God’s love for us.

But if we can somehow tap into that and filter God through that lens of love, then these other feelings are going to help us make more sense that God desires to be in relationship with us. And wants us to be close to him. And oftentimes when we have certain feeling experiences, our tendency is to do the exact opposite. It’s to do what Adam and Eve did is to run and hide from God, you know, because they felt ashamed or to be afraid and isolate.

Aron: Yeah. It’s hard. We tend to think people are one feeling. If someone is angry, all they are is anger. And we miss the complexity of who God is and who people are. God has this very strange dynamic that we’re not used to where he is fully love and grace and mercy and compassion. And he is holy and he is righteous and he has judgment and he has wrath.

And he’s not one of those things. He’s both of those things. And when we understand the balance of love and desire for relationship and accountability, and managing the context of relationship that keeps it healthy. It’s the interplay of those two things that helps us understand the total, who God is.

He’s not love at the expense of any sort of accountability because no relation can function that way where there’s no rules and no boundaries, and people can hurt each other as much as they want. “But hey, we love each other like that.” That’s not a healthy relationship. Likewise, someone’s only judgment and wrath and condemnation. That’s not a real relationship either. There’s no tenderness. There’s no connection inside of that. And so the context of the fullness of who God is and both of those aspects and all of those feelings that go inside of that, they show up in us in everyday experiences with our spouses or our bosses or strangers in the freeway when they cut us off in traffic. And we feel like that stranger isn’t caring for me because of the way they’re driving.

But they don’t know me. They’re not thinking about me. The context, I think about it and I want to hold them accountable because I didn’t feel cared for. So this interplay of needing to feel loved and managing accountability is the dynamics of all relationships, both our relationship with God, our relationship with others and our relationship with ourselves, where we have to lead ourselves.

I have to lead my feelings. I can’t let them just leave me because one feeling can’t represent all of who I am, but when I let a feeling do all the talking for me, I ended up saying things that I don’t really fully mean. My anger does all this talking and I regret everything I said because that anger didn’t reflect the rest of me.

It was only just this one piece of me. And so I have to leave my experience and I have to submit myself to be cared for by others. It’s a very complex dynamic. I think that’s why we struggle with it so much. 

Carrie: I would agree with that for sure. What kind of things do you see Christians doing to get out of their feelings in an unhealthy way where maybe they really need to be with what’s there?

Aron: I would say Christians tend to do the same things. All humans do. I don’t know that Christians manage it any better than any other person. It’s funny. There’s one thing every human being has in common with every other human being on the planet. It’s not their class or their race or their culture or their socioeconomic status.

That’s not their traumas. You don’t get to pick those things. You don’t get to pick who your parents were or where you were born. There’s so many things that make us all very unique from each other, but the one thing we all have in common is we all have the same feeling. Everyone knows what hurt feels like.

Everyone knows what disappointment feels like. Everyone knows what longing feels like. Sadness. Those are universal expressions that live inside of us. The contexts in which those feelings occur are very different. but the feeling itself is universal. We all have the same feelings. They’ve even done research on facial expressions and paired with emotions.

They’ve gone to every culture around the world, and they’re all universally recognized because again, we’re all made in God’s image. So we all have in the same way. So the inappropriate ways Christians manage their feelings, look a lot like the way the rest of the world manage their feelings because we don’t know what to do with them when we feel overwhelmed.

And so we avoid them, we try to pretend like they don’t exist. I can’t tell you how many, especially guys like to do this, they’ll come to my office and they’ll say, “yeah, I don’t have any feelings.” And I’m like, “really?” And they’re like, “no feelings.” I’m like, “you’re never angry.” “Oh, well I’m angry. Oh, but never frustrated while I’m friendly.”

“Bored?” “Yeah, I’m bored.” “Irritated?” ”Yes. Apparently, you only get the bad feelings, no good feelings, but you got a lot of feelings. So we tend to suppress them. We avoid them. Oftentimes we overexpose them to everyone because we don’t know how to manage our feelings. And so we really want somebody else to do all that work for us.

And so we express it in a very large way, but oftentimes the ways we express it, make it kind of intimidating or overwhelming for others to care for us in the ways that we can. Sometimes we want others to know what we need without having to disclose it. And so we just want them to know what it is. And so we drop hints or innuendos. For me, manipulation means that we’re trying to get our needs met without disclosing what they are.

It’s actually a protective strategy that we use to protect ourselves and still get our needs met. It’s not against someone, it’s to try to help ourselves, but we’re not going to, we don’t trust others enough to let them in on what’s really going on in us. So there’s a lot of different ways that we don’t know how to manage our feelings well, and everybody tends to do them pretty similarly in categories, I suppose.

If everyone’s unique in their specific ways they try to manage themselves. There’s also broad categories that we all tend to fall in, in terms of the ways that we do that. We overexpress or we under express or we swallow, or we pretend like they’re not there until we explode. There’s so many options we get.

Carrie: Yeah. Something I hear commonly in my office. I imagine you may in yours as well. “Well, I’m angry about that but I mean I really shouldn’t be”  or “I feel guilty that I feel this way, that I feel sad about that”, or “I know I need to just like have joy in the Lord, but I just feel so depressed right now.”

And sometimes there’s Christian mask, almost that we put on things like somehow we’re supposed to feel a certain way about a situation. And if we feel differently, or if we have a complex feeling, if it’s multi-feelings, then we may feel guilty for one of those feelings or the other. And somehow there’s this expected Christian response.

And if we don’t fall into it, all of a sudden there’s like this guilt and shame over our experience. 

Aron: Yeah. That’s very interesting when you’re helping somebody understand their feelings, they don’t realize they can have a feeling about a different feeling. I feel guilty about my anger.

And so they could become very complex. There’s times when we believe that we’re supposed to feel a certain way because the way that we would feel would make a statement about who we are. I shouldn’t feel angry because that means I’m a mean person or I’m ungrateful or whatever meaning we’ve constructed that goes with that feeling.

And we miss the importance of the feelings that we have. We’re kind of not addressing the reason why we have the feeling we have. We’re just wishing we had a different one, but our feelings are so important to us because they reveal what’s going on in us in the moment we feel. I call them a temporal truth.

It’s not an absolute truth like gravity. Gravity is gravity. It doesn’t matter how you feel about it or what time of day it is. My feelings are more like rain. It’s raining when it’s raining, but when it’s not raining, it’s not raining. It’s a truth that can come and go. So my feelings telling me what’s happening inside of me in the moment I feel it. The reason I know I’m hurt or feel angry, I feel hurt, or I feel angry.

It’s telling me, hey, this is going on right now inside of me and it needs to be attended to, or it needs me to lead it or comfort it or express it or do something. So, whether it should be there or not is kind of immaterial, the fact is it’s happening right now and we have to do something with that because we’re called to lead ourselves.

Scripture talks a lot about discipline and directing ourselves. I have a thing about that, but this idea of I’m supposed to manage my experience. And I’m supposed to know how to submit myself to someone else to be cared for after all God asks for us to ask him for what we need, even though he already knows what we need, he wants us to disclose because that’s part of the vulnerable part of relationship will be shared what’s going on in our hearts with one another and not just expecting someone else to know it. But on the other hand, I can’t just prioritize my own experience. I have to be able to put my experience aside. Scripture says to consider others’ needs as important as mine, you know, not just looking at my own interests, but the interests of others.

And in balancing that out, but feelings they need to be attended to, and it’s helping me know what’s happening. We would be burned or hurt all the time. If we can’t feel what’s going on inside. I have a father-in-law who has diabetes. He’s older and a couple of years ago he had to have a toe amputated because he broke it and had no idea. And by the time they saw it, it was completely black. It was your feelings help you know this is happening so we can care for it. So that’s an important thing. We just don’t worry about whether you should or shouldn’t have a feeling when you have a feeling, then it helps you know yourself and kind of what to do.

Carrie: I like the rain analogy that you use because there’s some language in church sometimes that I hear about, “you just need to fight your feelings with faith.” And I take issue with that statement because you wouldn’t fight the rain. You know, you might get an umbrella or put on stand galoshes, but you wouldn’t have a war with that. Like you said, if the feeling is here, it’s like, okay, well it’s here. So now what do we do.

Aron: Pastors are humans like everybody else. They have the same models of managing their feelings that other people have. They don’t have more access to those things than others. And I don’t know many seminaries that spend a lot of time talking about feelings.

They talk about liturgy and they talk about exegesis and all these kinds of bigger concepts. And so I’m with you. I was getting irritated when I hear a pastor say that if you believe in God enough, you won’t feel anxious. And I’m like, that’s ridiculous. Anxious is a very important feeling that helps you be prepared when you’re not anxious enough.

Sometimes then you make mistakes because you weren’t paying attention to it because anxiety is a feeling that says, hey, get ready for this. It’s when we try to be ready for things, we can’t get ready for that. We get stuck. We’re preparing for things that aren’t prepared, no something I can’t know.

And then it goes sideways, but a regular feeling is you’re going to have a test and you should feel anxious about that because it’s going to make sure you study harder. And so there’s appropriate ways of managing those things. But when we give a message that if you have enough faith, you won’t have any what we call negative feelings. That’s kind of really disabusing people and leading them down a straight path of how to attend to their experience and lead their own experience and know that all of those feelings have healthy expressions and unhealthy expression.

Anger is not bad. God’s angry all the time. Apparently, there’s a good way to be angry or hurt or sad or any of those things. Those are things that God does. And so it’s more important to understand the healthy expressions and how we do that well than just telling people to have more faith, pretend like those feelings don’t exist. 

Carrie: I think you hit upon on a point where in church circles, at least the ones that I grew up in, I know there’s many different streams of Christianity. There was a lot of focus on knowing about God, a lot of focus on learning about God and less focus on really the experience of interacting with God.

Aron: I remember there was a period of time when church culture was very worried about manipulating the congregation through emotion. And the emotion was manipulative and not authentic. It’s important not just to make an emotional decision about anything. You need a whole body to experience. You need your emotions and you need your intellect. Sometimes you need to trust your gut and your intuition and your body. And so having a whole-body experience in how we make decisions is important, but to negate the role of emotions is to misunderstand the context of who God is. God created emotions to be powerful for a reason because I think he feels them powerfully. He invented things that have you foric feelings. He made those feelings and made it that way. And so I think that understanding the fullness of balance and reason and the experiential, and not just knowing about who he is, but knowing who he is. Those are the best protectors in our faith and especially when it comes to sin, breaking the boundaries of relationship. To me, sin is a break of relationships. Sin is when we turn away from the relationship to do something that’s solely for ourselves. We neglect him or we forsake him to do something just for myself. And it doesn’t include him as part of the relationship.

And that hurts. So that’s outside the bounds of what he longs for in a relationship. And so understanding who God is and wanting. It’s kind of when you know your spouse really well, you know the things that hurt them. And so you try not to do those things because you love them. You don’t want to hurt them. But it’s not about checking boxes of legalism and rules, it’s about understanding the context of the one that you love and maintaining an as close and intimate and healthy relationship as you can. And that’s almost intuitive. It’s very easy. That’s why Jesus said if you love me, you obey my commands.

Not like, come on, baby. If you love me, you would. Or if you obey my commands, you don’t love me. You just say, it’s almost like when you love me, then it’s easy because it’s about the relationship.

Carrie: That whole like my burden is light verse.

Aron: That verse to me is about ownership. Come to me, you were weary and burdened. I always ask clients what’s the burden you’re giving God? And what burden is he giving you? Because he says he gives you a yoke. It’s just lighter than the one you carry. So what are you giving him and what are you receiving in return for me? The one we give him as the burden of ownership, where I take on the burden of owning my own sin or my own guilt or my own shame or trying to control my future and all of those things.

It’s the ownership I’m giving him. I’m giving them ownership of all of those things in my life. And the burden he gives us in return is the burden of faithfulness. That my job is to just be faithful to what he’s called me to do. To do the best I can, and to trust him to carry all the things I can’t because there’s only so many things I can manage. Everything I can’t manage is his job because it’s too much for me. And so I don’t need to be him or take over his role in the relationship. I can let him be strong where he’s strong and then I can be faithful to do the things that I’m called to do. Now that he’s called me to do and trusts me to do those things. 

Carrie: What would you say to someone who finds their emotions intolerable?

I know that’s a really big question, but let’s say there that they’re trying to have a healthier relationship with themselves, their emotions, and God in that interaction. What encouragement would you provide to them or maybe a starting place? 

Aron: People who find feelings and intolerable have had experiences that have been overwhelming that they did not have someone assist them or care for them through the process.

So in those experiences, their self, who they are, their soul was unable to manage the context of the totality of their experience. And so their self kind of collapses. The feeling is uncontained. It’s out of control. And that feeling begins to persist. And it’s a lot of what we describe as trauma is parts of us that remember in re-experience the intolerable illness. The overwhelming sense of helplessness or fear and they can’t be contained. And then my feelings don’t trust myself to lead it because when they reformed, myself couldn’t do it either. I was too young or somebody literally took away my power because I was being assaulted or I was in a car crash where literally I was helpless.

There’s a feeling of helplessness and the feeling has no sense of containment at all. And that happens. Even those times occur to us, that doesn’t have to be a persistent experience because our feelings are still looking for the same things they were looking for when they originated, which is to be led, to be held, to be understood, to be comforted, to be directed in a way that’s productive and helpful.

And oftentimes when we don’t know how to do that with our feelings, and we don’t know how to manage those feelings. So often others are fearful to engage with us in a way that feels safe to us then we stay trapped in these patterns of feeling overwhelmed, having maybe some other side coping ways we try to do with it.

We’ll do it through. Some kind of maladaptive ways. We’ll gamble, be promiscuous or we’ll do drugs or we’ll do something right to help manage these overwhelming feelings. And so, finding healthy relationships, finding a therapist that can help assist that process who’s trained to not be overwhelmed by your feelings and help engage you and help you lead your feelings and help rebuild. One of the principles of the modality I developed an attuned systemic repair is restructuring the leadership of self over our distressed emotions and repairing that relationship so that the parts of us within us can trust ourselves to lead that process.

And the therapist can model that and guide, direct that and restructure how that works in type the individual in helping them know how to do that with others. So there’s ways that we can learn how to manage those intolerable feelings just because they have never been contained or led doesn’t mean that they can’t be.

And in fact, they are still crying out for those experiences, which is why they’re so big. The only way that those feelings know to get cared for is to increase their volume until someone hears and responds. And so that’s what they do. They cry out for help. And when we learned that that’s what people’s feelings do, I can stop feeling attacked by the overwhelming feelings of others. I can hear the distress inherent in what’s going on. And that allows me to be more like a firefighter that runs into the fire to put it out rather than just being like, well, I guess I’ll just let that thing burn to the ground.

Carrie: Good. So if we have some therapists or students or others that might be interested in attuned, systemic repair, where can they find out more information at the moment?

Aron: So I’m developing a lot of training materials. I’m hoping to have some training videos out later this year. We’ll walk people through that. So I’m still in the process of writing. I’m an approved supervisor. So if they want some they’re pre-licensed that can get supervision hours. If we can get enough people interested, I’d love to start some supervision groups for ASR. I don’t know, maybe about a dozen people that are practicing it right now. So it’s not out there a lot, but have a lot of writing and we’re looking for ways to kind of communicate that.

So I’m still starting to let the cat out of the bag a little bit through this podcast and saying it’s out there and letting people know. 

Carrie: Well, that’s very exciting. We can put the link to your counseling practice on there and they can contact you through there. I’m sure that’d be great if they’re interested.

Aron: Yeah. Awesome. 

Carrie: Because this podcast is called hope for anxiety and OCD. I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person. 

Aron: Yeah. So I’ll mention that time shortly before I moved to Tennessee the church I was working at wasn’t as healthy as we had thought it was and could see that things weren’t going well.

And I had never expected to be out of ministry. I had never been as, I don’t know, I was just terrified. When you’re a pastor you have no marketable skills. I don’t know if you write a resume and say, I worked for a church and I’ve led hundreds of people in teams and volunteer teams and they say, “oh, in retail.” And you’re like, “no.”. And you’re like, “managed six-figure budgets.” And they’re like, “oh, in a warehouse.” And you’re like, “wow. no.” And so finding a job was really hard. And so there was a season of time when, um, I didn’t know what was next. I hadn’t come across therapy yet. I just needed a job.

And that fear of not knowing, I felt like I lost my purpose. I’d always felt called to ministry, felt scared. I’d moved my family across the country and then didn’t have a job to support them. I had some friends that were very encouraging and supportive that stayed with me through that process.

And it didn’t make it less difficult.  All of the journey to find just a job and kind of get through that. Just the beginning of that job, knowing that job was not going to be the rest of my life and figuring out grad school and all of that was still difficult, but having people around me, expressed concern, expressed care, offered encouragement was such a lifeline through that period. It helped me get through some very difficult seasons and it made in some ways survivable or helpful. And so I guess what I want people to know is that the relationships are the key to life. We are not made to function outside of relationships. I’m trying to find the source for this and I can’t find it, but I know I read it somewhere that it said that it takes 60% more glucose in your brain to comfort yourself than if someone helps you with it.

In social baseline theory, it’s a body of research that shows that we are not made to manage things alone. Our perception of difficulty, our experience of physical pain, our resources to engage difficulty are greatly increased by the access of social relationships. So social baseline theory says, add our baseline. We are designed to be social. We are designed for relationship. And I would say that if you have a lack of relationships in your life, you feel isolated, you feel alone. Oftentimes we try to solve that by being more alone, because if we feel like I get to choose my abandonment, then it feels less painful than if someone else has abandoned me. But then I’m still stuck alone and I’ve encouraged you that relationships are the key to life. And if you don’t have them, they’re accessible to you.

Start with therapy, find a small group, find a support group, find a place of people who know what it is to be like you, or have gone through similar experiences. Allow that to find hope that it’s survivable to know that you’re not in it alone, that people know how you feel. Everyone knows how you feel. Maybe not your context, but the feelings are universal. And when we share those feelings with each other, then suddenly, you know, we have on our wall, in our waiting room, we have a little chalkboard and we write little things there. And right now we are saying, “pain shared is pain divided, joy shared is joy multiplied.”

That’s the context of relationships and what they do. You’re made for relationship. And even if there’s not a human near you at the moment that feels safe, God loves you. He is for you. He created you. He sacrificed for you, and he wants to lead you to fullness to the person he’s created you to be that you have yet to fully realize because of the obstacles in your life. But God’s promises that he worked all those things for good, not the bad things are good. He’s a Redeemer and a restorer, and he can lead us through that. So there is hope because the God of the universe loves you and wants the best for you. We also have to be willing to participate in that process and take those risks.

And that’s hard and scary, but there’s always hope. 

Carrie: Good. Thank you for sharing all of that with us today. I think this is a really great thing for people to think about and process what are some ways that they can have healthier relationships with their feelings with God, with other people. It’s all interconnected together.

Aron: There’s a way that we’re called to live. There’s a way that life is designed to work. And when we’re outside of that, everything is really, really hard. But when we do it the way that God designed it to be, it feels easy. When couples or individuals end therapy, I’m like, who wants to go back to the old way?

And they’re just like, oh no, not at all. How much easier is this week? Oh, it’s so much easier, but it’s so hard to get to the easier way because it’s scary and risky and it takes a lot of hard work. But when you get to the other side, that journey is so worth the effort. The rewards are good.

And probably even greater because of the effort required to get there in the first place. 

Carrie: Absolutely. 

__________________________

There are so many different ideas being circulated around about our feelings and how to deal with them. Some of those are healthy and some of them are unhealthy things that we’ve picked up maybe from our environment or family of origin. So it’s nice to have this conversation in the context of biblical Christianity. By the time this episode airs, I will have been on a recording blitz in the month of May. Recording all kinds of episodes to take us through the summer. I know that we’re going to be diving into things like emotional eating, body image, learning to see ourselves the way that God sees us in dealing with doubt, just to name a few. There are so many more interview topics that I have that I’m working tirelessly on finding guests for all the time. And if you have any suggestions for me, whether they be guest suggestions or topics suggestions that I can find guests for, I would love to hear from you.

And you can reach me via the contact page of our website any time www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. 

Thank you for listening. Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of by the world counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

27. Sending Hope and Love to the Not Yet Mothers

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 27. Sending Hope and Love to the Not Yet Mothers

This episode is for all the women out there who are hoping and praying for a child, for couples who are experiencing fertility issues and for those who are healing from heartbreak over childlessness. 

This is a compilation of stories of hope of my friends and different amazing women whom  I interviewed in the podcast:

(4:04) Story of  motherhood journey of my best friend, Christin Jasmin Wilson  

  • Christin’s dating experience. Giving her heart to the wrong man.
  • Feeling distant from God and coming back to him. 
  • Receiving God’s kindness.  A  God-chosen partner and her baby, Ellis.

Stories of Hope from previous podcast episodes:

  • (20:32) Summer McKinney being happy with her blended family while waiting for God’s perfect timing 
  •  (24:12) Holley Gerth and her husband are now grandparents to the kids of their adoptive daughter.
  •  (25:03) God brought Dr. Kraegel a beautiful child after multiple pregnancy losses
  • (35:40 ) Lindsey Castleman and her husband’s amazing story of adoption. 

(25:30)  My dear friend Michelle’s testimony and her infertility, foster care and adoption journey 

  • Going through deep, dark depression after 3 years of unsuccessful fertility treatment.
  • Staying the course with the Lord who blessed her and her husband with children through adoption process. 

(30:48) My own personal journey and God’s statement for me about having children.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeforanxiety)

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 27

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode  27. This episode is going to be a little bit different because it’s not a solo episode and it’s not exactly an interview episode. It’s really a compilation of some different stories of hope. Some that we’ve heard before and some that we haven’t yet. For those who have been following along with my story or listened to our first episode know that while I have a history of being a foster parent and had hoped to adopt, I myself am not a mother. As I started to do these podcasts interviews, there was a string of a period of time where we were getting a lot of stories about people’s process in terms of becoming a family, whether that was praying, and then having a biological child, whether that was adding to their family through adoption or other means there was a lot of discussion about timing. And it really got me to thinking God are those stories for me or are those stories for my listeners? As so many times, I believe it’s both that as we minister to other people that God finds a way to turn around and minister back to us.

In this episode, I want to send love to the other women out there who may be are waiting or praying or hoping for a family who are not yet mothers. So I compiled some stories of hope from different women that have been on the podcast and discussed this journey. I also compiled some stories from just other women in my personal life who I know who God brought them on that similar journey.

Before we get into those stories of hope though, there are two moms that I do want to take time to say thank you to. One of those is my mom who’s a big supporter of the podcast. I know that she listens every week. She looks for the episodes to come out and she’ll send me emails if she sees Christian articles or hears of people who are talking about mental health and she’ll say, “Hey, have you heard of this person? It might be somebody that’s good for you to interview.” My mom was flying a couple of weeks ago. She asked a woman on the plane, “Hey, do you listen to a podcast?” And a woman said, “Yes, I do. So then my mom says, “Hey, would you be interested in a podcast about anxiety and OCD?” And the woman says, “Yes, I would.” My mom gives her a little podcast promo card that I had made up. That’s some amazing grassroots marketing right there. And so, thank you mom for all of your love and support in this podcasting journey. And the other mom, I want to think is who I call mom Bock, which is my mother-in-law. Mom Bock is also a supporter of the podcast and she listens to the episodes and oftentimes God will put people on her heart who need that encouragement or support from a particular episode.

And she will send it to them and has received some positive feedback about episodes that she’s shared. So I appreciate her supporting and sharing the podcast with other people as well. I joke with Steve that our moms are brand ambassadors for the show.

And now you know why our first story of hope for the not yet mothers comes from my best friend, Kristin.

How did I become a mother? That’s a loaded question. Hi, my name is Kristin Jasmine Wilson. And this is my story to motherhood. I am 39 years old. This is important because maybe like some of you, I wasn’t sure I would ever become a mother. I can remember from the earliest time always loving and being around kids around babies.

I grew up babysitting started at a very young age, probably too young if you asked me, but I started babysitting as early as 11 for my next-door neighbor. She had two beautiful kids that I used to watch on occasion. And I can even remember Connie and my mother serving with me at the nursery during the second service at church just because I loved kids that much.

You can say that this might be a God-given desire. I would say that I had this idea in my mind that I would always be a mom, but in my mind, by age 25, I have met the love of my life in college, fallen madly deeply in love, become a psychologist. I even found a letter that I wrote to Ms. Love in high school. I wanted to be a psychologist and have three kids of my own by 2011 or something crazy like that. However, sometimes life just takes you on a journey and that’s not necessarily how things go for me. I went to high school and had two boyfriends maybe, and all of which lasted two weeks. My singleness was a really, really hard thing.

I struggled being single for a very long time. I went to college. While I was in college, I decided to get involved in the church that was right across the street from our school. I again loved kids so much that I started volunteering as a college student in the middle school ministry. Yes, working with middle schoolers.

I know I’m a rare breed but I loved the naivety and the gullibility and just the welcoming nature of that age. In working in the middle school ministry though, remember college, I always thought I would meet the love of my life in college. I never did. And in fact, after college I started working for a ministry and for a nonprofit that really just worked with middle school kids all the while, knowing that I wanted kids of my own all the while, really wanting to be married and not ever wanting to have kids without a partner in life. I know I have had a lot of friends that have adopted or wanting to foster, and they’ve done that single handedly and by themselves and my hat goes off to them. However, I knew for me, this was not a journey I wanted to enter alone. Just knowing my own personality. I knew I would need a partner and a friend.

And so I prayed to God many nights that he would bring me not only a man of God but somebody who I could have children with and that we could raise children together. And I will say that came, but it came not without tears and not without many, many years of doubting God of asking hard questions of crying out to the Lord have yet one more guy who I was attracted to and had feelings for.

Not return those feelings, not return that love. I can remember during college and a little after I spent some years, are those college times in west Palm beach. And one of my places that I would really kind of have heart-to-heart conversations with Jesus was on the beach. And I can remember there was this one guy, and I really just had fallen head over heels in love with him. And he had no clue and I was good friends with his sister and I knew she could tell that. I just remember like really asking the Lord. Why just, why, why? I just remember asking, am I oblivious to guys? What is it that allowed me to not be seen by guys?

And really, I look back now and I see that had those guys looked at me and seen me, I would have fallen head over heels with the wrong guy. And really my heart is so honestly flip it and I fall in love at the drop of a hat. So it’s only the Lord’s grace and mercy that has allowed me in this that really kept me for my husband of today.

So, again, college thought I would be married by 25. That was my cutoff date in my head, that did not happen. In fact, I remember at 25 I actually freaked out and was like, “Oh my gosh” I remember my mom had me at 25 and I’m really like far behind the timeline here because I wanted to have kids and I thought by that time I would have them.

However, that was not always in the cards for me. And in fact, it took me a long time to even work through what it looked like to actually be in a relationship and what it looked like to actually start to date, which then led to motherhood. All the while though, working with kids, all the while though, taking care of other people’s kids. All the while, knowing that I wanted to be a mother. I remember turning 30 and still being single.

Actually, 29 going almost 30, grieving that year of the journey of being single and turning 30. And I almost wish that whole year of 30 away, I think it was 32 or 33. When I was 32 or 33, I finally was like, if I ever want to have kids, that I need to actually seriously start dating, started dating some guys on, through a few apps.

And at first, had really a hard time even wrapping my mind around if that was acceptable, how would I believe? And so, again, just really challenged my own thinking, but kind of came to the conclusion that if I was ever going to get married, I needed to be around guys and talk to them and have conversations.

And so I went on a journey of just having dates and chronically and all of those dates, some were really fun and some are really, really bad. And I could probably tell you stories, but I don’t want to embarrass any of the guys that I went on dates with, but let’s just say there’s a few that really still have me kind of chuckling today.

Fast forward to 2016, I was talking to a guy who happened to live in California and actually had a daughter. I knew that was going to be a little tricky, but I had been laid off from the organization I was working for. It closed down and I didn’t have anything keeping me at my current location.

So I decided to move to California and see if things would work out. I honestly remember really just sacrificing a lot of my ethics and a lot of my morals for something that was only temporary and somebody that wasn’t real on something, and for somebody that wasn’t authentic. And I really think in some of those, in that particular instance, I had really become so sick of being single and just was trying to do things my own way and in my own timing. Honestly, at 35, I was feeling like I was the only 35-year-old woman who had never been married. I was feeling it was the only 35-year-old woman who didn’t have kids. By this time I had high school friends that have had babies.

I’ve had college friends get married and have babies. I had friends adopting babies. And I was just for a long time, felt like my life was on this pause track, where I just had no control. And so many people kept saying, well, why aren’t you married? Or you’re a catch, why are you still single? When are you going to start having babies of your own?

And I really hated those questions because I felt like it was my own fault that I was unable to be a mother at that time. So at 35, I got in this relationship and I just decided to try to make things happen of my own accord and was completely devastated when this guy really only wanted to use me for certain things and then spit me back out. So with that, I packed up my bags and I moved back to my home in Chicago and kind of worded off dating for a while. Actually, it was like, I’m done. This guy is stupid. And really my heart was broken into a million pieces and it was really partially my own fault for giving it to him without putting up boundaries to really safeguard my own heart.

And of course, during that time, my relationship with the Lord was non-existent because at that point, I felt like I didn’t trust him and I was angry. I didn’t want anything to do with it. That he didn’t love me enough to give me a husband and children. By the time I was 35, knowing that most women go through menopause and are unable to bear children in their forties.

So, that was hard. Sometimes, the life that I’ve lived is great. I’ve gotten to do so many things as a single woman. I’ve gotten to explore. I had gotten to travel and have had so many different experiences that I would not have had if I had been married and had kids. Maybe I would have, I don’t know. But at that point, I was just done with being a good girl and following the rules and thinking that, you know, God blesses you and honors you. I think if I were to put it into different words, I was trying to make myself follow this God in order to get the blessing. And so, in other words, it wasn’t really about knowing God or trusting him.

It was about I’m going to do this. So in the end I get this and ultimately that work. So for a small little time, I said I’m not dating anyone else. At the time I did have a dating coach, just because I was like, if I’m going to be dating and dating on an app, I might need some extra advice.

I was actually visiting her at the time and staying with her that weekend and this guy popped up on my app and I was super wary and super kind of, not even sure I wanted to talk to him. She encouraged me. I showed him, you showed him, showed her like our conversation and, and she encouraged me just to start a conversation.

And so we did, and he was actually from Chicago. I was already planning to move back there after having my heartbroken. Wasn’t about to stay in California. And from there fell in love and met my husband, my current husband. We dated, that was in 2017. We dated for a couple of years, got engaged February 22nd, 2019.

We’re married by June 22nd, 2019. I have also had a lot of friends that have gotten late married later on in life as well. So I’ve had a lot of friends, but like some of the ones that have gotten married, like late in their late thirties, they really struggled with infertility and struggled with having babies.

And I was not even sure that I would be able to conceive right away without some sort of help. And so we decided that when we got married and went on our honeymoon, we would not prevent, but not also not like put a lot of pressure, not try. And behold, we got pregnant within the first couple of months without even trying.

And I remember laying in bed after finding out and after like looking at the pregnancy test and really coming to terms with it and just hearing the song In Christ Alone play through my head. As like my song of coming really back to Christ and back to a relationship with Jesus like that was what had sealed and kind of redeemed and, you know, kind of brought me back and brought forgiveness to who’ve had was I think. I was slowly coming back there with just the introduction of meeting my husband. And there’s a lot of emotions and hurt that had happened. Because of my own decisions and my own choices that I think with me becoming pregnant.

That was my aha moment. It’s been a journey too. I’ll tell you that. Becoming a mom, especially at this age was not easy, at 38. When I got pregnant with him at 38. It was probably a lot harder than most people. I dunno. I can’t say I was never married at 25. But I did have a cousin who got pregnant around the same time and she was in her twenties.

And there’s a drastic difference of energy between a 20-year-old mom and an almost 40-year-old soon-to-be mom, but the gratefulness and the humility that I feel like the Lord offered actually allowed us to name our son Ellis Jason, which just means the kindness of God.

Ellis means kindness. I just really felt the Lord was kind and allowing me after all these years of struggling, I wanted to become a mom and just to have his kindness and giving us a son is truly a gift. So if you were like me, maybe you have dreams of becoming a mom and having children. I would say it’s not too late.

I would say that the Lord is good. He is kind. He gives life and brings us through things that only teach us lessons to then share and bring hope to others that might be in those same situations. We are not without hope. We are not without life. 

Carrie: It was really sweet to have Kristin share because I’ve seen her through this whole journey and the spiritual growth process that she’s been on.

I know her story is going to be encouraging for those of you maybe who are still single or have been through a long period of singleness.

Summer McKinney story from episode 15 also ties in with the same theme of waiting to be married. 

Summer: I have to look at my own marriage. I was single until 28, got married at 29, I came from a very large family and always wanted many children.

And of course, the older I got, I mean, I could do the math in my head. Okay, Lord, you know, this is it. It’s going to happen. Of course, that was before like, you know, people in their forties started having kids and stuff, but there’s like, “Okay, wait.” My large families are going to happen, but God was in the details. My husband and I knew each other from way back but just went our own separate ways and whatnot but we reconnected and I inherited three amazing children in our marriage. And one of my deal breakers was I wanted a child. And so my husband, we’re going to get married and he would have to agree that we could have a child together.

And he said, “okay.” So again, “Okay, Lord.” I have three children and I want that comradery. I want them to grow up with a younger sibling. And so my timing was shortly after. Let’s settle into married life and blended family life, but few years were going by and it’s like, “Okay, Lord. Is this going to happen?”

You know, just a lot of questions. And my husband kinda gave up like, okay, it’s just not going to happen. And it took us a few years. God knew. Again, being in the details and perfect timing. The bonding that I was worried about. The boys were in high school whenever we had our son and through college, one of the boys stayed home and commuted, and then the bonding was just amazing.

And it was just all of those fears and all of those concerns or those questions. It wasn’t my timing but the timing was just perfect. You know, it wasn’t always my way but it was God, God knew what he was doing and just being in the details. And so that to me was just the hope of a large family, the hope of the bonding and that unity among the family. And God just blessed it. And so when those doubts or fears or things come into play, whether you’re single or whether you’re in an empty marriage, or divorced, and you still have that desire, I think that God is in the details and his timing is amazing. It’s not always our time. That’s kind of, when I think about, big thing in my life where desire and hope and blessing come together. I would say it’s definitely my family unit. 

Carrie: Yeah, it’s amazing how God will give us those desires like for you, it was for to have a large family. And God totally filled that in a way that you couldn’t have imagined at that point in time like you were thinking that all of those children would be completely biologically yours and you ended up with a beautiful family picture and it’s amazing how God’s dreams are much better than things that we could dream on our own. And when we try to do it our ways or in our timing, it just never quite shakes out and we can become disappointed.

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While Summer’s story didn’t look how she had envisioned, Holley Gerth’s story from episode 19 didn’t turn out how she anticipated either. 

Holley: My story of hope is my family story. I went through about a decade of infertility. My husband and I couldn’t have our own kiddos. So we ended up adopting a 20-year old who basically aged out of the foster system. And so she’s now 27. She got married and we are nanna and poppy to Eula and Clement.

And so I literally wore a ring on my finger that said hope for all those years. And the ending to our story is not at all what I would have imagined.

__________________ 

Our last few stories are stories about infertility. On episode 16, Dr. Irene Kraegel shared about her pregnancy losses. 

Dr. Kraegel: They were years for example where I had multiple pregnancy losses. I write about this in my book as well, too. And not really knowing how that would resolve and God brought us a child. And we have this beautiful nine-year-old boy that we love. And that’s something that brings me hope. 

_________

The next story is from a dear friend of mine that I have known since about 2014.

Michelle: Hi guys. My name is Michelle. I’m here with you today to share my testimony as well as my infertility foster care and adoption journey.

So I was married and divorced at a young age to my first husband. We did not have children together. And that was not something we had really tried to do, but when I met what would eventually be my second husband, I knew that I did want to have children. We were a little bit older when we got married, my second husband and I. I was 35. And so immediately after we got married, we did start trying to have our own child. Unfortunately, that was not happening for us. So we went to a fertility doctor and over the course of I’d say about a three-year span, we had approximately non-procedures done and close to $12,000 spent. That did not bear any fruit at the end of that three years, I think we were both emotionally, I was physically spent and both somewhat spiritually spent as well because we both prayed and prayed over this journey. And really, desperately wanted to have our own child. And at that time, we could not understand why the Lord was not providing that for us.

The way I was looking at it is there are so many people that have children that don’t even want them, but God, why are you not providing us with a baby of our own? And it made me feel unworthy of having a child. I was looking at it is God, if you could let this person who is abusive to their child or neglectful or abandoned their child if you can let them have one, what does that say about me? What does that say about the parenting you think that I would do God? And I really went into a deep, dark depression at the end of that three years. I began to resent my husband because I felt that I was the only one going through the emotional struggle, the physical, especially the physical struggle because all these procedures were happening to me.

And some of them were very painful and I felt like he was doing a small fraction of the work. And over time through scripture and prayer, I did grow to see that that was very unfair of me to think that way, but I’m human. And I felt that I had been abandoned by the Lord during that period of time. I was also very resentful of other women who during this phase were discovering they were pregnant and having healthy pregnancies and having these beautiful children. And what makes it probably even worse is my career was in early childhood education. So my career was children and especially babies and toddlers and those early stages of life.

That was my career. So day in and day out, I was seeing and working with these babies. It really brought me to a low place. So my husband and I eventually decided that we would go through the foster care program through the path classes, but I told him that he would have to do all the legwork of getting a set up for the classes that basically he would just tell me the time and place and I would just show up. And so that’s what he did. We went through the path classes. In three of those classes, I met other women who were in a very similar situation who felt almost identical to how I felt. They felt worthless and useless. And the way I felt during that period of time during that dark period is that I basically had one job to do.

The Lord made me a female, which meant I was supposed to have children and I couldn’t do the one job that God had given me to do. And I just felt just so inadequate and so useless that some days I didn’t want to get out of bed. Luckily, through prayer, through scripture, through family and friends who rallied around me, around us, my husband and I both and supported us and a God who never gives up.

He never fails us. I began seeing how, even though those were the things that I wanted, I wanted to have my own child, my own biological child. I wanted to know the joys of being able to tell family and friends that were expecting a child, to feel a life growing inside of me and seeing this beautiful baby when it was first born and caressing them against my chest, having all those moments through time and through prayer God very gently showed me that he had a different plan for me. Even though I kept questioning God, what is this? What plan is this do you have for me? I don’t understand. I don’t see it yet, God. He was just really patient with me and just showed me that I need to stay the course. So we finished the path classes.

We sold our small house and bought a bigger house so that we could accommodate children. And we knew we probably wanted to have multiple. It was 2015, we got our first sibling set. It was a brother and a sister and we actually got them on my daughter’s sixth birthday and my son Larry, he was seven about to turn eight. So we went from zero to 60 in 2.8 seconds. We had no kids and then we had two kids and it was the youngest child’s sixth birthday. So we scrambled to throw a little party. And our lives changed from that day like we could have never imagined.

We have been blessed beyond measure. Even in the rough times, we have been blessed because the Lord has stretched us. He has grown us. My husband and I have grown closer together. We have grown closer to the Lord and God revealed to me pretty quickly into the foster care process that his plan for us was to adopt children who needed a family. It took us three and a half years to be able to legally adopt our children. Then finally on January 30th, 2019, we were able to legally adopt Kimberly and Larry. And now our journey has not always been an easy one. There has been days where I have wanted to pull my hair out and say, God, what have I done? And then immediately I’m filled with all the love and joy that the Lord has put into our heart when he brought us these kids. They are amazing and we knew pretty instantly that we were meant to be their parents, that these kids were going to be with us forever. And it has been such a journey. It is such a blessing.

And my husband and I both feel that we just stayed the course with the Lord. He’s always sovereign. He’s always faithful to us. He never leaves a season. He never abandons us. He shows us what we need eventually in his time and not our own. So I just hope this fills you with some peace and some hope and knowing you’re not alone.

If you’ve been in a similar situation and that God does have a plan for you you may not see it at this moment, but he will reveal it to you. Just be faithful. I hope you have a wonderful day and I just push blessings upon you. God bless you all.

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Carrie: I really appreciated the vulnerability and the spiritual wrestling that Michelle shared in her story, because I believe that someone who’s listening is really going to be able to relate to those thoughts and questionings that she had and rustled with God.

On episode 22, Lindsey Castleman shared her amazing story of adoption with us.

Lindsey: During this time and being in this community group, my husband and I found out that we were not able to have children. And then there were six couples, four out of the six couples found out that they could not have children, which was crazy. I didn’t know it before we came. We weren’t like, “Hey, let’s do an infertility community group.” It just happened. And then we all discovered these things. Hopefully, it wasn’t something we all drank. So we were in this together. We started going through this adoption process for us, my husband and I. One day, one of the girls in the community group texted me and she was like, “Lindsey, my mom is in a Bible study with this woman who’s asking the whole Bible study to pray for an adoptive family for her nephew’s son like it’s kind of a big goal. And she was like, “My mom remembered you guys and community group, and would you be interested?” And I’m like, “What?!” It was kind of wild because I was actually at this church.

When I got the text message, I was literally in church and they were about to do this worship and they do this forever long worship. So I’m like, all right, some do I’m worshiping and I’m asking God, I’m like, God, is this our son? Is this what we’re supposed to do? And I heard a very clear yes.

And I don’t hear that kind of stuff all the time. A very clear yes. And so I said, all right, God, well, you’re going to have to tell my husband that you said yes. He’s a little bit more of my risk-averse kind of guy. I’m a little bit more of a risk-taker. So anyways, I called my husband because I was on a trip.

So he was back at home and I was in California and I called my husband and I said, “Hey, in our community group said that.. What do you think? And he was like, “I’m open.” And I was like, “oh my gosh.” That’s not usually the response I get. I usually get all the worry questions. And if you’re in the Enneagram world, he’s an Enneagram six.

So that makes a lot of sense. To make a long story short, even though I’ve already made it long we ended up meeting with that family. And then on a Tuesday, they told us that they chose us. And then we brought our son home that Saturday. We kind of look back and we go, “oh my goodness.”

Even just us being kind of obedient to want to serve, and not obedient and like little begrudging, but just like, “Hey, we really would like to serve.” Just how God placed us with all of these people that then placed us with our son who could not have been a better fit. And if I go into the emotion of it, I will cry right now but I’m not going to be staying in my head about it.

But just in that sense of we couldn’t imagine our lives without them. And so in this place of feeling so hopeless and infertility, God was already working behind the scenes and bringing us hope just through these things, we could have never orchestrated for us to be able to be parents to our son.

So that for us is like any time it’s like, “Oh, is God working on us? Heck, yes. He is. He is and he’s working today, like working today not just in biblical times. He’s working today. He is a God of hope and he is a relational God that loves us and wants to be so close to us. And that’s beautiful in that way.

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Carrie: I started out this episode by talking with you about how I am not yet a mother, either. I wanted to share with you where I am on my own personal journey in case that provides any extra support or encouragement to you. Steve and I pray about having a family. We’re very open to what does that look like for us since we are older. The most amazing thing though, is that one of the times I was praying about this, I feel like the Lord spoke to me, “Carrie, I’ve already given you many children.” I have to say I didn’t receive that in a sense of God’s not going to give me children. However, it made me actually so grateful and thankful because that statement is true.

I was looking back at some old pictures that I had under the bed before we were in the digital era. So they’re actual physical pictures that I have from times where I did VBS with children. Times where I worked at an afterschool program with children in the inner city. Times where I was involved in helping with youth ministry and middle school ministry.

Many of those kids obviously are not kids anymore. They’re grown up and some of them have children of their own. But when I received that word to my spirit and prayer, it gave me so much joy and encouragement that I’ve worked with children almost my whole life in some capacity. I know that God has used me to minister to the next generation even though that may not look like having children in a nuclear family.

So if that’s you, if you’re that person that’s maybe single and serving in the children’s ministry church, or you’re in college working at the afterschool program and investing in kids know that even though they’re not your kids they’re God’s kids and you are providing just a valuable service by loving on them, encouraging them, supporting them in their growth journey process, physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever that looks like for you. 

Sometimes mother’s day can be a hard day or an emotional day for women who aren’t mothers. I’ve had people tell me that they don’t attend church on mother’s day due to this. If that’s you and you’re hurting on that day, I would encourage you to find something that you do enjoy doing and plan to do it on that day. Definitely take good care of yourself and you know what you can handle emotionally. Whenever your journey is whether you’re a mother, whether you’re not a mother, whether you’re not a mother yet, know that God loves you very much, that he has an amazing plan for your life, and things never work out exactly how we plan them out in our mind. However, we know that God is good. We know that God is loving. We know that God is pro-family and whatever that looks like for you. I just pray that this podcast encourages you in your journey wherever you are right now. 

Some of you may have listened to this episode because you’re in this season. For those of you who listened to this episode, and you’re not in this season, maybe you already have children and you’re just a regular listener to the podcast, there’s a good chance that God has put someone in your circle who is either struggling with fertility or questioning how can they be single for so long and have children, or they can relate to some of these other stories. Will you please just share this episode and allow it to be a vehicle of encouragement to the people that you know who may need to hear this. And if this episode has impacted you positively, please let me know. You can always reach out at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Head on over to the contact page as always.

Thank you so much for listening. Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of by the wall counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam. 

Until next time. Maybe comforted by God’s great love for you.

26. A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 26. A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

“OCD has been the gateway to God and grace for me.” Peyton Garland author of Not So By Myself shares her story of OCD and her journey of going to therapy.

 After seeing a therapist, her mother and grandmother followed after her and sought professional help for themselves. 

  • Peyton’s experience of contamination OCD 
  • What it was like to go to therapy for the first time 
  • Getting help with brainspotting (type of therapy)
  • Growing up in a strict church culture and how her faith changed over the years as she grew to know God.
  • Growing up in home with a parent who has PTSD 
  • Ripple effect on her family after she decided to seek help
  • How Peyton’s husband works with her on compulsions
  • God breaks into lonely places. He works best in the mess. 



Follow along with Peyton on Instagram @peytonmgarlandwrites
Book: Not so by Myself: A safe space where God doesn’t fix the loneliness, but sits with you instead

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Transcript Of Episode 26

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD. Episode 26. Our most popular episodes thus far have been personal experience stories. Peyton Garland shares her experience of struggling with OCD. How that’s impacted her faith, her journey of going to therapy. It’s really good stuff in here, guys. I hope that you enjoy the show today.

Carrie: Thank you for coming on the show, Peyton. 

Peyton: Happy to be here. 

Carrie: I’d love you to just tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Peyton: Sure. I am Peyton Garland. My husband’s name is Josh. He and I live north of Atlanta in Alpharetta, Georgia. We have two of the most obnoxious but sweet puppies in the world, Alfie and Daisy. So we are dog parents and proud of it. My husband is a pilot and I’m an author. So we’re both finding the careers that we love and thriving in them. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. Why did you want to be on the podcast and tell a little bit about your story today?

Peyton: I think mental health in this day and age is almost a buzzword. I think it’s something where people are finally willing to talk about it. They’re finally willing to listen, but I also think that the voices that need to be at the forefront of these conversations are people who do struggle with anxiety, who do struggle with OCD, who know what it’s like to be in a therapist’s office.

So this podcast just seemed to embody that ability to have real conversations with people who truly go through this stuff.

Carrie: At what point in your life did you start to notice like I’m starting to struggle here with my thought life?

Peyton: I had always been a worrier and I knew that, but the older I got the worst that got the more irrational the worrying became.

So like I said, my husband, is a pilot. When he first finished flight school, which was about two years ago, the only airport where he could get a job was in Indiana. So states away, hours away. He and I had just moved to a new town in Georgia for a new job for me. So new town, new job. I’m not near my family.

I’m not near my friends. Two weeks after we moved there, he moves to Indiana. I’m being by myself and being by yourself leaves lots of room for your headspace to just go crazy. And at that point, maybe two or three months into him being gone that’s when I said this worrying is not only irrational. It’s starting to impact me physically, too like I’m losing weight. I can’t put back on. I’m not sleeping. I eventually went to a therapist which in my small country town was not a welcomed thing. Therapy is almost seen as defeat like you couldn’t take it, you couldn’t handle it. Your faith in God wasn’t strong enough. I went to a therapist’s office, found out I have intrusive thought OCD.

And what I’ve learned with OCD is that often anxiety and depression are kind of buddies. They sit right beside OCD and they take turns. So I’m just on a big journey. Now I share a lot about that in my new book, Not So By Myself. Just how you’re not really by yourself in the quiet space, even when your brain is super loud.

Carrie: That’s so good. So it was a, you had a big stigma hurdle to even get in the therapy office coming from a small town, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Be the tough girl. 

Peyton: Oh yeah. Well, I’m so glad you said that. In my book one of the chapters, I talk about how all three of my great uncles and my grandfather were drafted into the Vietnam war. All four gone at the same time and when they came home, they quickly learned that in order to not talk about everything they’d seen, they were just to keep quiet. That silence was strength. Those two just seem to parallel and they passed that idea down from generation to generation to generation.

So my generation about the third or fourth generation, we’re sitting in a culture now that saying, “Hey, it’s okay to say I’m not okay. It’s okay to go get help.” And I think I actually was the first person in my family to go to a therapist. And the beautiful thing is I had a parent to follow after that. [00:04:37] I had a grandmother follow after that, and that was a very beautiful thing to kind of see loved ones, say, “Hey, you know what? There’s some things I haven’t been okay with. I have a dad who has PTSD and traumatic brain injury from serving in the military. So lots of people now getting help for hard things they’ve been dealing with for decades.

Carrie: I love that ripple effect in your story. It’s like one person starts in the family starts to experience some relief and change and hope, and then other people say, “oh, hey, that sounds really good. I want to get on board with that and maybe I’ll try therapy out as well.”

Peyton: Absolutely.

Carrie: Do you remember that experience of just being so nerve-racked and were you super scared to start talking?

How was your therapist able to help you feel comfortable even sharing some of these things that you had? You’d really just rattled around in your head and maybe talked to your husband about.

Peyton: Sure. This is crazy. You’re literally outlining my book chapter by chapter. 

Carrie: I haven’t read it either.

Peyton: One of the chapters is called green tea and therapy and it’s about my first time in a therapist’s office. Like I said I come from a good old country town. I walk in this therapist’s office and there’s like this spa music in the background. There’s bright but soft colors everywhere. I’m way out of my element.

I was not a yoga kind of girl. But my therapist just asks me a simple question. She’s like, “Hey, is there anything I can offer you to drink?” And I’m a green tea kind of girl. So I said, green tea, just give me some green tea. And I remember death gripping that green tea coffee the whole time.

I don’t even think I drank it. I just death gripped it because one thing I knew and this whole room of nothing I knew. My therapist started with the big question. She had to tell me about yourself like I got to know what goes on in your head. What’s going on in your heart and your spirit and your family.

When I left I had no mascara left on my face. I mean, I did, but it was like down to my chin on my neck. I still hadn’t touched the green tea. It was just an hour of me unearthing everything that had been there for over a decade, honestly. So it was a wild, uncomfortable, but relieving experience all at once. It was a whirlwind for sure. 

Carrie: Was that when you got the diagnosis of OCD? 

Peyton: Yes. So I have a dear friend, her name’s Wendy Nunnery. She’s an author too. She has it. And I had met her for coffee one day and we hadn’t been friends for long and she was just vulnerable enough to say, “Yeah, you know I struggle with intrusive thought OCD.

And she was telling me all the things she worries about. And I went, “oh my goodness.” Number one, I’m not by myself because I have been thinking some off-the-wall things and I can’t talk myself down from them. I’m always afraid of running people off the road. I overthink being near knives. I overthink changing a child’s diaper.

All of these things that I just thought I was literally psychotic, like there was some serious problem. This wonderful woman of faith is sitting in front of me, a mother, a thriving wife and she just lists everything that’s been rattling in my head for years. And so I sat back still wasn’t sure about therapy, but kind of a pin that had to be what I had. And once Josh left it was very, very unhealthy.

Like I was just in a place where I wasn’t functioning. I said we gotta get help and that’s exactly the diagnosis I received. 

Carrie: So in some ways that was probably a little bit relieving to know what you were dealing with because when people don’t know what they’re dealing with, then they throw all kinds of vernacular labels on themselves. 

Peyton: Right. My dad, you know, has PTSD and he had that when I was growing up. So I was around it. But PTSD almost stems from something very traumatic, which is what happened with him in the military in his line of work. But for me, nothing traumatic had actually happened to me and I couldn’t figure out why I was having a hard time.

As a good kid with good grades and a good family. I mean we had struggles with what my dad went through, but I must have been a bad person if I couldn’t control what was going on in my head. The level of relief and the pressure that just fell off me, that was a God thing. There was no way around that.

Carrie: Did you struggle spiritually during that time? Like why has God allowed me to struggle with this? And those kinds of questions, maybe that people with OCD face. 

Peyton: Yeah, I’m just going to send you my book when this is over. My fourth chapter is called church games. And so again, I grew up and not hating by any means on denomination, on religion, but I went to a very small brick and mortar countryside church. Women were told not to speak. I was told it was King James, or it was literally not the Bible and how dare you touch it. Women cannot lead worship. I grew up in such a rigid church culture that when you combine that with OCD, you’re quite terrified of God.

I got a credit card in the mail or a debit card a few months ago and my security code, well, I guess I can’t say it, but it had lots of the apocalyptic kind of numbers going on and I literally almost sent that back in the mail. I was like, “no, we can’t use that like, I can’t touch that.”  Wild, irrational thoughts OCD we’re paired with this very rigid church culture.

And I was afraid of God for years like he was just somebody that I was told to love, but I was scared of loving him because I was just scared of who he was or at least who he seemed to be. So yeah, I struggled spiritually for a long time. 

Carrie: Like maybe tying into some of the obsessions, like is God mad at me or am I going to go to hell.

Peyton: Exactly. Very perfection-oriented. But like I said not just a perfectionist or perfectionist with OCD which can take on a completely different level of fear, anxiety, and all the like.

Carrie: So what you’re saying is that you have intrusive thoughts, but you don’t actually have any compulsions. Is that so?

Peyton: It’s funny. So there’s several different branches of OCD like intrusive thought OCD there’s harm OCD, contamination OCD. With me, I do have a form of contamination OCD. I always had. I washed my hands a lot as a child If I spilled anything on me like a chemical. Cleaning panics me. I was afraid to be near chemicals.

So when COVID hit, my contamination OCD, the compulsion went through the roof like I had always been a hand washer. I’d always been a clean person. I started keeping a chart of how often I washed my hands. When the world shut down and we went home, I washed my hands an average of 57 times a day and I spent two-plus hours a day following through on compulsions with cleaning, with mopping, with wiping everything down with wiping my hands down my phone down. Just putting Josh in a Clorox fog as soon as he came through the door.

So there are definitely compulsions, but I see them most with the contamination OCD. 

Carrie: How has that affected your, your marriage, and your relationship there? Have you had to kind of train him on how to help you at times? 

Peyton: He is very gracious and I’ve been very blessed with someone who’s willing to listen.

He has been mentally a very strong man which is fantastic. Obviously, he worries about things. There’s hard things for him, but he is very mentally stable, which is what I need. I’ll be honest when we first got married is when it really started kicking up. I’ve learned change kind of messes with my OCD like getting married, buying a house.

I had just gotten a new job. Just all the things. And bless his heart he just thought it was birth control. He thought maybe it was him. I thought it might’ve been him. We didn’t know. Maybe only a few months later is when the piloting thing happened and he was gone and I got help. So for us it’s funny, but for him it was a breath of relief when I found out I had OCD. He went, “oh, okay. It’s not me. It’s something else.” Not that we can fix OCD but we now have something we can work with. We have a name and a face to it and he has been so good. What I love about him is he respects when I’m having anxiety.

He respects when there’s a compulsion where I’m just like, I have to follow through with it. There’s no way around it. But he also calls me to work through compulsions. He calls me to say, “Hey, let’s take a step back and rationally talk yourself down from this like we don’t have to wash your hands five times in a row. We can do four and walk away.

It’s okay. So there’s been a little bit of training on his part, but he’s really been gracious and I’ve been very thankful for that. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. We talked about kind of how to support your anxious spouse on a previous episode. So I’m curious about your experience on that. 

What was that process like of finding tools and strategies and things to help you in therapy?

Was that really hard and what kind of therapy did you utilize? 

Peyton: Yeah, so my therapist and I, we do brain spotting. I don’t know who all knows, but literally, I find a spot in the room where my brain just kind of seems to be at peace and attune. I like natural light, my brain and my eyes always go to a window where there’s natural light and my therapist just says, “Hey, let’s just start walking through what you’re feeling. Why you’re feeling this way.”

And every time brainspotting walks me back to what started a trigger, what started a compulsion, what started the anxiety that’s just built up and is now bottling over. So I love brainspotting because often my compulsion or my thought has nothing to do with what’s really bothering me. OCD is just really good at twisting stuff.

So I love brainspotting. It earths my head. It just brings it back to earth. But also we just learned really healthy techniques. Even things like social media can spike my OCD. Just because OCD can thrive off of just about anything it wants. I do 45 minutes of social media a day. I have a timer on my phone. That’s something she and I worked through. 45 minutes was a healthy number for me. When the timer goes off, I’m done with social media. Josh and I have what we call a contamination zone in my house. If there’s something that I just feel is completely contaminated and I don’t want to touch it. He puts it in a corner, in a room and we let it air out because in my brain letting it air out is safe. Just little things like that have made a huge difference for us. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I’m going to get somebody on the show to talk about brainspotting now. I think that that would be an interesting episode, too. 

Peyton: That would be fantastic. I love it. I love brainspotting.

Carrie:  Yeah. We have talked a little bit about EMDR on the show and it’s similar.

There’s some similarities in terms of just kind of like really tapping into that brain level response and the nervous system. And like you said, when you trace OCD back, it doesn’t make sense. You’re like, “wait a minute, this goes back to that time when I was this age and this experience happened.”

I love that it really gets down deep underneath the presenting issue. Because it’s not actually about the stuff or the cleanliness. It’s about that piece underneath it, whether it’s a lot of times like dealing with uncertainty or loss of control or those types of triggers can be really prominent

Peyton: Well, that’s what wild is. Every time we brain spot and we work it back, it is either a very harsh church experience I had, or it’s just growing up in a household with a dad with PTSD that was undiagnosed for years. Every time, my brain has trillions of off-the-wall thoughts, but every one of them works its way back to one of those two things.

Carrie: Wow. Do you feel like you were a particularly sensitive kid growing up, more sensitive to people’s emotions or kind of absorbing everything?

Peyton: I’ve taken a bunch of Christian spiritual gift tests and discernment comes back every time no matter which one I take. But my mom did say as a child, I tended to know without actually knowing, like if there was a relative who was going through a hard divorce or someone just lost someone.

My mom said as a child, I gravitated to them. She said I’d walk up and sit in their lap. I would sit and talk to them. I mean, maybe that had to have been just God. Just knowing who needed some extra love. My mom swears as a child I could just walk in a room and I just knew who needed even just a “hey” or a hug.

Carrie: That’s good. We had Mitzi Van Cleave on the show before, and she talked really about how OCD was a part of her sanctification process. That there was this process of growth through affliction is what she talked about it. Can you talk about a little bit about that in terms of your spiritual journey?

Do you feel like you have some similarities there? 

Peyton: Sure. I’m so glad you asked that question. It’s one of those things where I think Paul mentions in the new testament that he had a thorn in his side. I think that’s a favorite thing to debate is what was the thorn in the side. But I think regardless, the reality is we each have a thorn in the side. I think on this side of heaven, we will eternally fight or struggle over, wrestle with and I think OCD is mine. There’s no magic pill for OCD. I’m not going to wake up one day and my brain is just going to be super chill.

The bittersweet thing that I love about this thorn in the side is it constantly calls me back to a place of grace. As a perfectionist with OCD, I’ve had to come to grips with the fact I cannot be perfect. The church is saying is you’re a human. You’re not perfect.

I always knew that, but that always wasn’t good enough. I was like, “no, I’m going to prove the church wrong. I’ve got this. I can do this.” OCD literally said “ha, no” like here’s something very irrational and very imperfect for you to imperfectly worry about. You know, go have fun, good luck. And so OCD quite forced me to accept that I’m not perfect. And because of that, growing up in a really harsh church culture and stepping away from it and wrestling with OCD, I can now look at God and say, “Hey, you know what not only am I not perfect, but you are.” And as churchy as that sounds, there’s so much grace in that because God has not put the standard of perfection on me.

And I know I can’t meet it, especially with the OCD. And so now it’s just grace and I had not lived under grace. I had not lived by grace. It was just a catchy phrase that at one point I thought would be a good tattoo on my wrist. But OCD has been the gateway to God and grace for me. And so for that I am always grateful.

Carrie: How did you make that perspective shift in terms of your view of God? Did that come through getting around like a healthier church environment? 

Peyton: Sure. When I was about 16 or 17, I just told my family, I said look I’m out. Not out, like I’m not piecing Jesus out, but I’m not here. I finally started studying the Bible and the Bible and the guy behind the pulpit were not lining up.

[00:20:43] So I said, look, I can either believe a man who’s like everybody else or worse, or I can believe God. And so I’m just going to go with God. That sounds like a smart decision. That’s the Sunday school answer, but it’s one that I’m going to adopt for myself. And so I stepped away from that church. I found a much, much healthier church which made so much of a difference. Within that church, I found women my age who were also not afraid to mention that they struggled with mental health and that right there was probably the ultimate game-changer. I was being around women my age who had been perfectionists. I don’t know if you know the Enneagram, but I am in an Enneagram one on the personality chart.

We are reformers. We are the spearheads for all that is just and good and right. But I was blessed to find women just like that, who turned around and said that I’m not always good. And just and right. I do struggle with mental health. And even through all of that God still sees me as good because he loves me and because he’s good.

And so that was the revolution in my spiritual journey. 

Carrie: I think finding the character of God. And I’m really connecting with the character of God who he says he is in the Bible and experiencing that in your life as absolutely a game-changer. I’m curious. This is a question for you from the trends of the podcast. Our podcast is for people with anxiety and OCD. But the most popular episodes that have been downloaded have been personal stories about people with OCD who have experienced that. Even more popular than our very first episode just like, Hey, this is the podcast. This is who Carrie is and all of that. What do you think? That’s because people just aren’t talking about OCD and the church.

Peyton: Oh, absolutely. When I wrote my book, not said by myself, my editor called me and she said, Hey, sweetheart, you got to lighten up on the church, just a smidge. You gotta pull back just a littlest. So I’ve talked about that with much more grace. Thanks to my editor. And my book, I think we talk about the soul in the church, but I also think if God created the soul, he created the body and he created the mind.

And we are called to honor all three of those. We are called to keep all three of those healthy to keep them in check. Iron sharpens iron, I think mind, body, and spirit. And I don’t know where the disconnect happened with the church and that aspect. I don’t have a clue, but nobody talks about your mind and your physical health either.

And if those two aren’t in check often the spirit’s not in check. And so we’re walking around almost wobbly like one-third of us is functioning like it’s supposed to in the church and we wonder why things still feel like they’re falling apart.

Carrie: And they’re not working. And this concept, which I’m still just wrapping my mind around is like the holy spirit lives in me like in my body that just really blows my mind.

So I’m like, does how I treat my body that has to interact with my spirit? I know it doesn’t change the holy spirit. I’m not saying that, but I mean how I interact with my body changes my spiritual health. It affects my spiritual health as well as my emotional health and physical health.

It’s just all interconnected. And I think you’re right, I think we do try to look at those things separately and don’t interact with each other. And if we want to be more healthy spiritually, we also have to be more healthy emotionally and physically. It just makes sense. I love that.

Talk with us about this concept in your book of not being alone that seems to be a big thing for you. Why did you title the book the way that you did and how does that incorporate with what you wrote about? 

Peyton: I think OCD was probably one of the most isolating things in my life. Like I said, even growing up, I was a worrier. My friends called me the worrier.

I was the mom friend like I was always 45. I was always isolated because I was the mom. I was the worrying one. I was the one who can not just ever let loose and have fun now, not in the name of sinful pleasure, but I was just never relaxed. I can never breathe and that was one of the most isolating things for me.

And so as I got older, life got harder, stuff got more serious intrusive thoughts just have a field day with that. I mean, because there’s just so much more stake. Once I got married like sexual OCD stuff went through the roof because never had I ever had sex. And now I have, and my brain is like, “Oh, here’s 5 million things we can take and run with.”

So I continue to get lonelier and lonelier because all of these thoughts made me take a step back, take a step back. I was not like everyone else. Something was wrong with me. Should I call the sheriff on myself like what is going on? And so when Josh physically left and I was physically by myself, that was probably one of the darkest places in my life because I had always been mentally and even spiritually isolated just from the church I grew up in and struggling with OCD. And here I am not physically alone and it took therapy. It took God’s grace. It took two or three very dear friends that made you realize you literally cannot be alone. And it sounds so churchy. It sounds so cliche.

But like you said, if the holy spirit is truly embodying you then I am called to believe that he is embodying every lonely space I’m walking through. So he is quite literally paving the way and telling loneliness to just step aside like it doesn’t have a place here, not in my heart, not in my spirit, not in my physical body, not in my mind. And so that’s how I chose the title, Not So By Myself. 

Carrie: So huge. I hope that as people hear this podcast and these stories that they recognize that within themselves too like I’m not alone. I’m not alone in my struggles and that God’s here with me and God can break into those lonely spaces. And I love that he just meets us where we’re at, you know, all of our mess.

Peyton: That’s what I say. He works best in the mess. That is where he thrives. 

Carrie: So cool. Towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is the time where you received hope from God or another person.

Peyton: Oh, that is such a good one. OCD is just so wild. So harm OCD for me, I’m always afraid of running people off the road. I’m always turning my car around to make sure I haven’t run anybody off the road. There was one day I was in my little black Chevy car that I had gotten in high school and I was driving home and I just had one of those intrusive thoughts of I tried to pick up my phone because someone was calling me and I thought, “oh my gosh.”

[00:28:00] like for those five split seconds, you have no idea if you were looking at the road, what could have happened? So I just hit the brakes. It’s a quiet country town, but I still hit the brakes in the middle of the road. And I went to go whip my car around and somebody sideswipes me because I’m irrationally flipping my car in the middle of the street.

And I thought, “oh, my word. I have just caused a wreck. I have no clue if this person is okay. I don’t know how I’m gonna tell a cop I have intrusive thought OCD and that’s why I’ve had a wreck. So I pull off on the side of the road and this woman pulls off and I see her and she’s older and I think she’s 85.

I have partially killed her. She’s going to need a hip replacement. This woman gets out of her car. I’ve damaged her car like this was on me. She comes over and she grabs my hand and she looks at me and, and even in a small town, this was one of those random chances where I didn’t know who this was.

She said, “I just want you to know that this is God’s providential hand, that you’re safe and I’m safe.” And she prayed over me and just left. And I’m sitting here going, ”my insurance is going to go through the roof.” I definitely just clipped the back end of her car. So no insurance going up. I didn’t pay anything for this woman’s car.

I swear she was an angel. So that was just hope because that was a hard thing. Mentally, I was in a bad place. I made a bad decision as a driver and this woman just prays over me, gives me grace, and just drives off. And I will never forget that day. I will never forget her face, the street name, any of it as long as I live. That was some serious hope that I will not forget.

Carrie: Wow. What a testimony of God’s grace. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. I think this has been great to talk about all the different things that you talked about and I’m sure it’ll be an encouragement to somebody.

————-

I enjoy getting to have these guests on because it really reduces the stigma and shame surrounding being a Christian and struggling with OCD. Maybe you or someone you know have had an experience such as overcoming a phobia or working through social anxiety, I would love to feature some of those types of stories on the podcast.

If that’s you or someone you know, you don’t have to be an author to be on the show or a public speaker or a therapist. None of those are requirements. Just reach out to me via our contact form on the website at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com I look forward to hearing from you and being able to share more stories of hope with you in the future.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

2. Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 2. Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

In episode 2 of Hope for Anxiety and OCD, I had the opportunity to interview my own pastor. We discussed how people with anxiety and OCD wrestle with having these disorders and not receiving healing from God for them. He shares his own experiences of how his prayer life has grown and developed over the last several years. Pastor Troy discusses prayers that were answered and how he handles the ones that weren’t.

  • How Pastor Troy went from falling asleep to engaged during his time with God in the morning
  • Receiving the call to plant a church and the unexpected miracles along the way
  • How praying to God when you are mad or distressed increases intimacy 
  • Doubts and questions during prayer
  • Hope for unanswered prayer

Verses discussed: Phil 4:6, Eph 1:9

Resources and links:

By The Well Counseling
Victory Church, Smyrna, TN “You’re here on purpose because you have a purpose.” 
Victory YouTube channel

More podcast episodes

Transcript of Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 2

I am your host Carrie Bock. Today, we’re going to be talking with Pastor Troy Powell, who is the pastor of Victory church. I have really been so blessed to be a part of the Victory family for the last couple of years. This was my first interview on the podcast.

I was super nervous even though I was already interviewing somebody that I knew and knew a lot of the stories that he was going to share. Today, we’re going to be diving into a lot of different issues like how do you develop a prayer life? How do you handle frustrations and disappointment with God when you’re praying?

What in the world do we do with unanswered prayer, especially surrounding healing from anxiety or OCD. So, if you have been praying for God to take your anxiety away and there’s no relief in sight, this episode is absolutely for you. Unfortunately, the audio for this episode is not the greatest. We had a big Tennessee thunderstorm roll in at the time that we were recording this.

You may hear some thunder in the background. I know that our editor has done the best that he can on his end to improve the sound quality. Please don’t judge our show by episode 2 audio. The content was so good that I didn’t want to scratch it.  I really wanted to be able to provide an opportunity for you guys to hear this stuff because it’s just really good.

Pastor Troy’s Journey to Becoming a Pastor

Carrie: Welcome to the podcast.

Pastor Troy: Excited to be here.

Carrie: In church backgrounds, we call our pastors all kinds of different things. Sometimes, people will say like, “Brother Troy”, or typically we call you Pastor Troy, but recently you’ve really embraced this new nickname of PT. I’m curious about how that came about?

Pastor Troy: Pastor Troy has been weird for me in a way. I’m not heavily educated in that theology realm. I’ve got a little bit of theology background and I’ve always just been a servant leader at the church. So when the day came to be called Pastor Troy, that was weird for a while. Plus, I’m from Memphis and there’s a rapper named Pastor Troy. Don’t go buy any of his CD’s. They’re not good. A quick, funny story- there was a Cat’s Music that on the sign out front had like Pastor Troy on it because he had a new album out. The children’s pastors and all the kids were showing in the church, “What are you doing in the Cat’s Music?” and I was like, “Don’t go to Cat’s Music.” I didn’t even know who it was, maybe Jamal or somebody just kind of quickly said, “PT” and that sticks because it’s quicker and it’s easier to say. I love it because it’s both respectful, but at the same time, relatable and kind of chill. So, you can really have a good conversation with somebody.

Carrie: Cool. So tell us a little bit about the journey to becoming a pastor and planting Victory church.

Pastor Troy: I’ll try to do the smallest critical, condensed version of that. I didn’t go to church, didn’t know anything about the Lord till about 17. I sat beside a young man in a math class at school. He started talking to me and we found out that we both liked basketball and so on.

He invited me to his church where they played basketball and long story short, I just fell in love with the environment. The people were super nice. Our kind of tagline at our church is “You’re here on purpose because you have a purpose.” I’ve always known there was a better purpose to life than just give money or become famous or whatever. I could never find that. I worked jobs. I’ve worked them for a day or an hour and quit cause I was like, “What is the purpose of this?” I started going to church for girls, basketball, the food, and all that kind of stuff. The more I stuck around, the more I started to realize, “Hey, there’s something to this.”

Long story short, God grabbed me, held onto me, and then I just said, “Hey, this is what I want to give my life to.” So, I started stacking chairs at the church, that kind of thing, and one by one, the opportunity would open when I’d walk to the door.

Long story of how I got from there to at the time I was the Executive Pastor of our church in Memphis. I just felt this weird, we couldn’t explain that at the time, but it was this urge, this calling in our heart to shepherd people, to pastor people. My two pastors, Matt and Ron Woods would tell us “You’ve got an anointing on your life to be a pastor.” We didn’t know what that meant. We love to counsel our friends. We love to teach the Bible, love to preach the Bible on any Sunday. It was just amazing. We loved pastoring people to our pastor’s vision. We loved shepherding people and we always did it from another pastor.

God Called Pastor Troy To Plant A Church

That was the assignment God had for us, but we just knew that there was a time coming where we would be pastoring our own church. It was just kind of a moment where the church was going in a certain direction. We didn’t really want to go in that direction personally. We knew something was changing for us. We went to our pastor and said, “Hey, this is what’s going on” and our pastor said, “Have you ever considered planting a church?” and we were like, “We didn’t know anything about it.” The more he described it, I said, “That sounds terrible.”

I have to quit my job, raise funds, move my family, get my kids out of school, sell my house, move somewhere potentially that I’ve never been. Then, beg people who don’t know me to give up their life for something. That sounds completely like the hardest thing you could possibly do.

So I said, “No, there’s no way I’m doing it.” And he said, “Well, go with me to a conference,” and I said, “Sure.” So he took me to the conference and the Lord confirmed through a particular preacher that day.

That’s what was happening. She (spouse Darla) had to stay at home because we had small kids. At the altar, at this place, I was crying because I know that God has called us to do this. I didn’t know she was watching the same service online at home in the kitchen and she’s crying at the same time. She’s texting me after it was over and she goes, “We’re doing it” and I was like, “Yes, we are.” 

We knew from that moment forward this will come up. There were a lot of hardships and hurdles to jump but we never lost faith. In fact, we were supposed to do it because of the way that we didn’t want it. We didn’t see it as an opportunity to be the leaders or something. We didn’t see it as the opportunity to get more money or to be finally the person, the boss.  We just saw it as an opportunity to walk where God had us and we knew it. Again, He kind of dragged us at first, but as we fell into that place and said yes, the doors started swinging wide open. There’s no doubt in my heart that this is what God’s called us to do.

Carrie: I like two things about that story that you shared. One is like the sense that you had other people in your life that confirmed God’s vision for your life. I think sometimes it’s easier for other people to see it and we catch that up later like God speaks to us over time and it’s like maybe that is really valid what that person is trying to say. I definitely can relate to times where I told God, “No” and He was like, “nN, you’re really doing this.”

Pastor Troy: I heard a guy say one time that we struggle seeing the anointing or the calling on our lives because we’re the only person we can’t see. Everybody can see us. Everybody can see that you’re gifted. Everybody can see that you’re beautiful. Everybody can see these things, but you don’t see it. As much as that happens with a woman who’s beautiful and is insecure about her beauty, it happens with an individual who is anointed to do the work of God but just doesn’t see it like everybody else sees it. Like you said, it’s valuable when you have somebody in your life, people who are able to tell you, “You are called to do this. You can do it.”

Carrie: That’s good. I think it speaks to the value of the church and being a part of a community because more and more people are fleeing the church in a sense saying, “Hey, I want God but I don’t want anything to do with organized religion”, or “I’ve been burned in the past by churches and so I’m not going to have anything to do with that aspect of my faith.”  I think it’s unfortunate because we miss out on so much when we do that.

Building Relationship Is Vital In Church Planting

Pastor Troy: It is very unfortunate because number one, I just believe that the church is the hope of the world. Number two, I believe it is where you find that fellowship. We try to design Victory this way. We’re not perfect by any means but I always wanted to be a place where right off the bat, you come in the door and you’re welcomed. You belong before you believe. It’s not about your belief system. It’s not about your standards and all that. 

Jesus went fishing like he’ll clean you after He catches you or however it works. You get people in the door and then you build a relationship with them and you get some relationship equity. Then, as you build relationship equity, you’re able to have those conversations about, “Here’s what the Bible says about this. Here’s what the Bible says about that.” Then, of course, you’re preaching the whole time and allowing the Holy Spirit to do that. 

Don’t get me wrong, every Sunday before you start trying to essentially change somebody’s life, maybe the way they’ve been living it for 20 years, you may want some relationship equity first so there is weight behind that where you’re saying, “Hey, maybe you shouldn’t do this. Maybe you shouldn’t do that” because of that relationship. That’s where I think the church has got off a little bit as you walk in the door and they’re telling you what you shouldn’t do, and you’ve already got a blow-up. So, you turn around and leave to where they would build a relationship, love you through the way somebody loved them.

I’ll jump off the subject of this. When I started coming to our church in Memphis, which was called Raleigh Assembly of God, I was so far away from God. People, specifically Ron and Timmy Kennemore, they’ve been at our church multiple times. They’ve been there at every birthday. They were there for the launch. They parented me. They wrapped their arms around me and loved me and I was not lovable, but they did. That to me was a picture of Christ. That’s I believe what the local church can do and can be if people are willing to let it use them that way.

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think relationship is really a key and really important in any change. Sometimes the kindest thing that we can do for people is to speak up and say, “Hey, you’re going down the wrong path” or “You’re on the path of destruction and let me guide you over here and that’s going to lead you to the path of life.”

Taking The Prayer Relationship To A Different Level

One of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast was to talk about your prayer life and how it’s grown and developed to where you are now. Can you share a little bit about that story?

Pastor Troy: Certainly, this is one of my favorite stories to talk about simply because I think it’s one that God uses.

So again, I get saved. I’m very young and immature in Christ. I just start serving God and I was serving because I was around, I ended up in circles with more spiritual, mature people. I was a janitor at the church. I was an assistant to different staff members. I just kind of do that whole deal but I’d always struggled with having a consistent prayer life. I would hear people talk about their quiet time or their time with the Lord or when they read, pray, whatever they called it. I wanted it bad but I just couldn’t do it. There was the hurdle of not quite understanding it but as I grew up and as I stayed in the church, that kind of got fixed, but part of it was just, I would try hard and I just couldn’t do it. I’d wake up in the morning and I’d go in the living room and I’d fall asleep trying to do it. I’m not a morning person. I like to get up in the morning, but I don’t wake up and go like, “Oh right.” I don’t drink coffee, so I don’t have any kind of immediate wake-up. I remember when Darla and I really started talking about doing this, planting this church which was probably a year and a half to two years before we actually moved to do it. I just remember saying, “Alright, something’s got to change.” I’ve got to take that prayer relationship to a different level and I know, again, I’d wake up in the morning, I’d go in the living room. I’d sit on the floor, get my Bible out, and then, I’d fall asleep. It was just not working. 

Hearing God’s Answer Audibly

Interestingly enough at the same time, I had gained some weight through the stress of ministry. That’s a whole another podcast. She (Darla) said, “You need to get in the gym.” I’d never been at the gym and so I said, “Fine, I’m going to the gym and lose some weight.” So I go to the gym one night and I’m walking into the gym, and I don’t even know what to do. I don’t know how this machine works.

People are looking at me like I’m weird simply because of God. I turned around and my brother-in-law, Darla’s brother, is walking in the door and I’m like, “I didn’t know you work out here.” and he’s like, “yeah.” And I was like, “Man, is there any chance we could work out together? I don’t know what I’m doing today.” He said, “Sure, but normally I’m here at five o’clock,” and I was like, “That’s no big deal” and I think it was like six-thirty or seven o’clock at night. He goes, “No, no, I’m only here at 5:00 AM.” I was like, “Oh, I thought there was only one five on the clock.”  

I’ve never really heard the Lord audibly, but I can feel it so strong in my spirit that it sounds audibly. God says, “This is what you’ve been asking for,” and so I just said, “You know what, I’m going to do it. You’ll hold me accountable. I know you will and so I’ll come.”

Walking The Track With God

I don’t remember the exact day we started, but I get up at 4:30. I drink the pre-workout that he gave me. It’s kind of caffeine. I get in my car and drive to the gym. We worked out from five to six. Six o’clock, he leaves. We have a couple of the guys with us too. Six o’clock in the morning, I’m standing in the gym that’s almost empty, nothing but senior adults in it. I don’t normally wake up until seven so I’ve got an hour in time that I’m not normally not even up for.

They happened to have one of those tracks above their gym that went all the way around. So, I said, “Well, I’m just going to go walk.” I’m going to put on my headphones and I’m going to try to pray and I walked up there. I put my headphones into Christian music and I just walked and I just started talking to God.

I didn’t have a diagram. I didn’t have a plan. I didn’t have a layout. I don’t even think I actually said a prayer during that first hour, but that hour flew by. I just talk to God as if me and Him were walking that track. There was nobody up there but myself and it was beautiful. It was great.

I felt better about myself. I felt excited to be able to say, “I prayed today,” and so I just started the process and kept it going. I don’t do it on Sunday mornings because normally we’re at church. If we’re on vacation, I won’t work out, but I’d still walk, pray, but I haven’t missed a day in five years.

Carrie: Wow. That’s awesome. 

Listening To The Same Praise Worhip Music List Helps

Pastor Troy: Certainly, it’s matured. It’s grown. It changed my life. What it looks like now is I don’t have to get up as early. Praise God. I will do it if he ever calls me to do that again, but I will get to the gym, I’ll work out. Actually, now I pray first. I’ll get there, I’ll drink my pre-workout while I’m praying.

A couple of keys in case anybody’s listening and wants to model it, I listened to the same praise worship list or music list because I don’t want to be distracted by the song. I don’t want to be surprised. I don’t want the genre of music to change or to go from soft music to loud music or fast music. So, it’s the same. It’s almost like it’s white noise.

It drowns out the people that are around me. I now have a prayer request on my phone, different prayer requests that I marked cause I’m gonna show you something in a minute that I brought for this. That’d be pretty cool. 

Carrie: That’s awesome.

Checkbox To Highlight Answered And Unanswered Prayers

Pastor Troy: I’ve now actually got an app on my phone where I can read the Bible now during that time as well, and take notes on what I’m reading. So in that whole hour, I start off thinking about God. I’ll go into my prayer requests. I’ll read my daily reading for that day. Of course, depending on what’s happening in my life, it kind of changes. 

One thing I wanted to show you this, I don’t know if you’ll be able to see this at all, but this is the book I had when I first started doing my prayer. These are some of the prayer requests that I had written down. They can be very specific. I wish I could share this one day. I actually have my beard because I wanted to grow a beard so bad. 

During this season, we had to sell our house. We had people moving with us. One of our guys lost his job. They said they were going to allow him to work, move to Nashville but work from Memphis. They fired him. We had to raise $175,000. Our water heater went out.

I had all these people. We had people who were asking to move with us. So, I had all these prayer requests and I just could not get that verse out of my mind, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” So I would pray over these things. The reason why they’re highlighted is that He answered the prayer. 

My phone has a little checkbox that you get but what that does for me is it allowed me to go back and see all that God was doing. One of them that’s not highlighted on here because I had moved out of this book is church location. I moved on to a different book.

Carrie: That’s awesome. 

Pastor Troy: It’s been life-changing for me. First of all, understand this about me, Carrie, I don’t like surprises. I like to set stuff up. I like my house. I want to clean the dishes, put the dishes in the cabinet and let them set there cleanly and I’d rather use a paper plate, never get them dirty. Like, I’m weird. I like stuff to be stable and so not only did I pick the number one career for my life to become unstable, but now I have to deal with everybody else’s lack of stability, right? If their mother becomes sick, if their job furloughs them, I’m now involved in that. 

Experiencing God While Working Out Put Things Into Perspective

I have a lot of anxiety or I have potential for a lot of anxiety and this has been life-changing for me because every morning I go get my perspective right. I sit, I bring whatever it is I’m dealing with and then I give Him the actual day [00:19:00] and I can spend some time reading my Bible and worship if that day calls for it. When I go work out, I listen to podcasts and sermons while I’m working out. So it’s like a two-hour experience with God and by the time I leave, I am so jazzed for the day with a different perspective. 

God Cares About Everything, Even Little Things Like A Hair Tie

Carrie: That’s awesome. I like that you prayed about your beard because I think there are some things that we really think, “Oh, that’s too small or it’s too insignificant” or “I can’t really bring that to the Lord.”

There was a story one time where I was on my way to the gym and I was like, “Oh, I forgot a hair tie” and I was like if I go through this workout class I’m just going to go crazy cause my hair is going to be flying everywhere and some really gonna bother me. I got there to the gym and I opened up the locker and there were two hair ties in there and I was like, “I know this is the Lord.” I know there were two because you had been preaching [00:20:00] about how God wants to do more in your life. I was like, “See, there it is, it’s right there.”  

I love little things like that. God’s concerned about the details of our life. Yes, He’s concerned about our job and our health and our family and things like that but he’s also concerned about little stuff that most people would find insignificant or say, “You don’t really need to bother God with that.” I guess, so to speak. He’s not bothered by any of it. 

Pastor Troy: Not at all. I have two kids, a 10-year-old and a five-year-old. The five-year-old is still really little and she still has a raspy voice. If that little girl asks me for anything, if she says daddy, “I can’t find my hair tie.” I will flip this house upside down to find it for her and on a second, I’d say. “We’ll just get another one” or “Hey honey, your hair’s fine down” but she wants it and your love for her drives you to find it. There’s a verse, I don’t remember the reference, but it talks about how a dad will not give [00:21:00] their son. I think it’s like a rock if they asked for a fish. So how much more would God not do that to us? If that’s the way I feel about Kacey Rae, how much more does God feel that way about me?

If I can get to that level of intimacy where not only am I asking Him for healing and provision, but I’m asking Him to give me a hair tie, that’s the level of intimacy that most people never get to.

God Does’nt Get Offended When We Are Mad At Him

Carrie: That’s awesome. So what do we do when we do pray about some of the big things? I look at things that have happened in my life. I lost my foster children. I lost my marriage and I remember specifically when I lost my foster children, I just said, “You know, God, I will live a thousand years and I will never understand why you allowed that to happen in my life.”

Do you feel like it’s okay for us to go to God with [00:22:00] things like doubt or questioning? If you could talk about that for a little bit. 

Pastor Troy: Yes. First of all, I think that’s always the hardest part about having a consistent prayer life because if you have a consistent prayer life, you are eventually going to ask God for something that He doesn’t give. It’s just going to happen like“go ahead and mark it on.” I could find stuff in this book and some of the stuff are highlighted, but it’s not highlighted because He gave me the prayer. It’s highlighted because I didn’t get it. I just knew that was the answer.

Obviously, If I had the supernatural answer for why God does those things, I’d write a best-selling book, but I do want to say this to the direction you were going, during that time that I have in prayer, there’s often a time that I call the lamenting time. You go through the Bible, you see David do it. [00:23:00] You see Joseph, you see different men and women of God where there’s a season where they cry out and they’re angry at God and sometimes it lasts for only a short time. I think David when his son with Bathsheba dies, he cries out, he tears his clothes, and then you’ve done that and I’d get up and move on.

Here’s what I’ve learned from that, number one, God doesn’t shake or get offended or shiver when I get mad at him. I don’t get scared when my daughters get mad at me because I don’t let them do something they want to do. I understand the process. So as long as I’m communicating with them. I tell my kids all the time, “You don’t have to agree with me, let’s talk about it”. 

A lot of times with God, I think what it is God’s saying, “That’s fine. Go ahead get it off your chest. Cry, yell a little bit, scream” like, “God I can’t take it.” 

I think what He tries to teach us is that principle, I haven’t learned it quite to a level of excellence [00:24:00] yet, but the ability to cry, lament but once you’re done get up and move on. 

Once there’s a moment that you have done that and you have had a perspective shift or you have had confidence now that for whatever reason God didn’t give it to you but God is on the throne, let’s move on. I think you and I both could name many, many moments in Memphis where now that I look back, I’m thankful God didn’t answer that prayer.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. 

Lamenting To God Will Draw Us Closer To Him

Pastor Troy: There are still things that I will go to my grave probably wondering, “God, why didn’t you give that to me” “Why didn’t you make it easier?” That whole idea of God’s looking at the puzzle from the top and we’re looking at it piece by piece. I believe and I would love to assure anybody that in your prayer time with the Lord, do not hesitate to just let Him know how you feel. Do not hesitate. If you’re unhappy with something, tell him. If it didn’t go the way you want it to, [00:25:00] go get mad, scream, yell. I think He just draws us closer. I think He just continues to console us and lets us lament to Him so that we can get through that season and into a season of healing.

Carrie: There’s a certain emotional connection that comes about when you welcomed the emotion into the room. So like for example, in counseling, sometimes people have a hard time crying in front of me initially, but then when they do that, it’s a connecting point. I think the same is true of God. If we try to hide our feelings from Him or come to Him in some kind of pious religious way, then we’re missing that deeper layer of intimacy to say, “I’m hurting right now,” or “I’m mad at you” or “All of these emotions are here.” We just miss out on that connection. 

Being Vulnerable with God Will Deepen Our Intimacy With Him

Pastor Troy: My wife and I don’t have a lot of fights, but we like to call them “intense conversations.” [00:26:00] Everyone we’ve ever had, if I look back on it, because of that conversation, we grew in our level of intimacy. When you’re angry, you’ll say things that you really feel. You may not say them in the best of ways, but you’re no longer beating around the bush. You’re no longer sugarcoating it. You are just, “You know what, here it is” and when those moments happen again, you can’t just turn around and walk out of the house and not talk about it. When handled correctly, I think that recovery from a fight or recovery from a disagreement, or whatever misunderstanding brings a new level of intimacy. I think it’s the same way with God. When we have that time, that intense conversation with God, we see once we get through it, there’s a higher level of intimacy.

Carrie: I agree. I think that’s great. It really goes back to prayer, being more about a relationship with God, [00:27:00] rather than this is something that I do because I’m obligated to do it or I pray in a certain way because that’s what I was taught at church.

I know for me for a long time, I wasn’t really honest in my prayer life, not at the gut level, honest place and I think that difficulty with being vulnerable with God and being vulnerable with other people really scented my spiritual growth in a way. When I went through difficult things and tragedy, my prayers got a lot more gut-level honest to where I could be real. That drew me closer to the Lord in the end even though I wasn’t happy with the process of having to go through those things.

Pastor Troy: I think you hit it on the head. I think that the number one foundation has to be laid out is that prayer life has to be way more about having relationship with God and less about a religious process or even a means to an end. It’s not I’m doing [00:28:00] it so that I can get A, B or C. A lot of days where I don’t even pray a prayer request. I just talk through what I’m going through. I just talk through what I’m thinking and my insecurities and all those kinds of things and I feel better. I didn’t even ask for anything. God may answer one of those prayer requests that day because obviously, I’ve prayed about it before, but it’s about having that daily meeting.

The Bible talks about being at a level with God where you are revealed the mysteries of God. I really think that the more we can get close to God in an intimate level where we get to a place where our prayer time is more about just hanging out with him than it is about a means to an end, when you keep it regular.

God always knows where to find me and my wife will talk about this, anytime she’s praying about something that she wants God to move in my heart, she’ll pray in the morning when I’m at the gym because she knows I’m in [00:29:00] conversation with God. God wants to do anything. If God wants to speak something to me, He knows where to find me.

I said this at church recently, when all of the COVID-19 stuff hit and we weren’t allowed to go to the gym, I walked and ran outside around my neighborhood and prayed. I remember praying about COVID-19, praying for our church, praying for people who had lost jobs and so on and so on. I remember saying to the Lord, “I’m so glad this isn’t the first time you’re hearing from me. I’m so glad that because the world’s upside down and all of a sudden I’m talking to you. I’m glad that for five years, I’ve been talking to you when it was a Saturday when all we had to do was lay around the house and play games when it was the best of best days, I was praying to you that morning.”

I’m glad that that’s the routine I’ve put in place, which in result has created an intimate level of relationship which I think has unlocked some of God’s mysteries. 

When God Doesn’t Answer Your Prayers…

Carrie: That’s good. A little bit about this in terms of unanswered prayer. I just wanted to address maybe for people that are listening [00:30:00] out there who would say, “I’ve prayed for healing for my anxiety” or maybe they’re having debilitating panic attacks on a regular basis. Maybe they’re struggling with OCD which can impact people’s connection, ability to pray, relationship with God. So for somebody who said, “I’ve been praying for God to take these things away and I’ve been praying for healing and I haven’t received it and I’m just so discouraged by that”. What would you say to encourage them? 

Pastor Troy: That’s a great question. Obviously, every situation is going to be different, right? Because of that particular situation, how long have they been in it? Throughout the Bible, you’re seeing so many people healed and delivered. I think we automatically fall in that vein that we think prayer should bring healing and deliverance right.

About Bob, we may not forget about what he went through. The person I immediately think about that I think would allow me to bring some encouragement in this area. [00:31:00] is Paul. When Paul says “I’ve got this thorn in my side, and I’ve been praying for God to take it away once, twice, three times and God has not removed it.”

I think that’s such a funny situation because Paul is such an incredible man of God who has given his life to the kingdom of God, asking for this little thing to be delivered and God doesn’t do it. I heard a preacher say one time, the reason that they don’t identify the thorn is so that you and I could apply whatever our thorniest into that, as if it was a blank. The part that I don’t hear preached about enough is when Paul’s talking about the thorn. He says a couple of lines in there that reveals that what it’s doing is keeping him in humility, but also bringing him to the feet of Jesus. 

The best way I can explain this is with this illustration: four years ago, five years ago, [00:32:00] I had this extremely bad situation with kidney stones. I think they said it was like 13 kidney stones in both kidneys. I had a brand new baby. Kacy Rae was just born. My wife is dealing with a newborn baby by herself and I’m on medication painkillers, whatever it was, just enough to let me go to work. Six o’clock I was right back into pain so I would come home. 

Darla would have the heating pad on the couch. I would sit on the couch and do nothing. She would handle a five-year-old and a newborn by herself. I would just sit on the couch looking at the TV.  By seven o’clock, I was so miserable. All I want to do is go to bed. So I go to bed. I’d lay in the bed. I could hear her screaming at our kids, dealing with our kids’ crying. 

[00:33:00] At two or three in the morning, I just go in the living room and watch Boy Meets World. It was miserable and this went on for like four months straight. It was just terrible. I prayed. Every second of every day and I pray like this, “God, you could snap your fingers and it would just stop right now, so why aren’t you?” 

I could write down you a list, 10, maybe 20 things that God taught me through that experience. Had it not happened, I wouldn’t be the same. I wouldn’t be the same physically as far as fitness. I wouldn’t be the same in my marriage. I wouldn’t be the same in my intimacy with God. I would not be the same father. 

I’ve preached a sermon before about taking my kids for granted and when they wanted to hang out and do something, I was like,” Oh, I’m too busy. Every time they said my name, I dropped what I was doing and went and spent time with them. So I say that if somebody is going like, “I need some hope and all these because God’s not taking it away from me,” instead of praying, “God, take it away from me” shift that. Still, pray by all means as Paul didn’t stop praying. Start praying, “God, what are you trying to teach me in this? What is the perspective you want me to see?” What are some things in that intimacy with Him? Again, like we were talking about earlier, you’re not going to Him with a means to an end. Now, it’s not we’re going out and talking to you so you will deliver me so that once I’m delivered from it, I’ll just move on because we all have that tendency that once our problems are fixed, we forget.

It’s a lot easier to stay on the other side because obviously, God did end up healing me. It could’ve been a lot quicker, but he did end up doing it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to belittle the situation because it’s just so much easier talking about it when you’ve been delivered from it. If I was going to give an encouragement, it would take some time to set up a [00:35:00] situation where you have an hour a day of prayer and for 15 minutes, pray that God would deliver you, even then for 45 minutes, pray that God would help you see why He hasn’t. 

God’s Gift In Unanswered Prayers

Carrie: I try to remind myself, sometimes God’s always working. God’s doing something here, even if I don’t see what it is or I don’t know where this is going. Even in our culture of American and what’s happening right now between COVID-19, between race relations, God’s doing something in our nation. 

If we are tapped in and we are tuned in and saying, “God, what are you doing in my life? What are you doing in my community? What are you doing in the nation and the world?” Then I think we’re going to be a lot better prepared to handle situations as they arise. They’re out of our control.

Pastor Troy: A hundred percent. It’s about stewardship, right? So you mentioned COVID-19, [00:36:00]  I think God has got so many things that He’s going to do by the time all this is over both through the racial dividing and through COVID. 

I’m going to use the COVID-19, for example, when it first hit, we went a couple of months, we couldn’t even leave our houses. The kids weren’t going to school. Not that any of that really changed, but it was really extreme. So number one, we had dinner meetings every night. We were meeting people every night, so we were never eating at home. That forced us that we can’t go to restaurants, so we’re cooking at home.

My back porch was just a bunch of junk piled up. Somebody had given me a free grill. I never even turned it on. So Darla and I took some time and we bought a swing and we cleaned it up and we cleaned the grill up and we got some plants and put out a table and long story short, four months later, every night, we have dinner with the kids. We’ll put them in bed and then we go sit on that porch and we just swing and we talk.

So my point is that God gives us these, whether we’re considering it a gift. So again, back to [00:37:00] Paul, he talks about the stone, he says, “God gave me that.” 

Nobody’s going to consider COVID-19 a gift right now but if you allow the spirit of God to give you a little bit of perspective shift, again, not that any of those things are good, people being sick, people dying, small business, that’s all bad, and we need to do all we can to help. We’re a mess, whatever it might be, but there’s another side of it that says, “All right, God” I’m going to also look the other way and say, “What can change in a positive way as a result of this? What can I learn that makes me a better person.” Moving forward from what people would have considered a terrible situation. 

Carrie: Right. There’s a gift in there at some point. I want to end our podcast time together. This has been really awesome. Some of the things that you’ve shared and topics that we’ve gotten into. 

Pator Troy’s Story of Hope

I like to ask every guest, what is a moment of hope maybe that stands out for you, a time where you received hope [00:38:00] from God or someone else in a period of maybe a discouragement or time where you had a hard time moving forward?

Pastor Troy: There’s so many. I think of two big wins right off the bat though. I’ll try to say real briefly, the first one, which you’ve probably heard me talk about before, we had to raise $175,000 to launch our church and my dad’s blue-collar, “If you want money, you work for it.” That was really difficult for me to ask people and God actually kept providing so we were about $65,000 away from our goal and we decide that we’re gonna launch the church nine months earlier than we originally planned. We’re going to launch in September. We moved to January. So we kind of started panicking. We didn’t want to have to borrow money even though there are great organizations out there that will let you do that.

We wanted to launch debt-free and so we just didn’t know what we’re going to do. We have missed some deadlines for some of those applications and I remember just praying like, “God, I need something.” [00:39:00] Long story short, a pastor friend of mine whose church is kind of a parenting church of ours, called us up there for a video and totally pretended like it was one thing. Darla and I arrived and they handed us a check for $65,000. It’s moments like that, that it can only be God. 

The second one, since I had this book, I was going to show you or read it to you cause I don’t have it memorized. So we were supposed to launch the church or plant the church. We felt that calling from that conference.

I’m trying to decide the name of the church and I’m getting kind of uneasy because we don’t know where we’re going. I’m starting to get to that point of like, “God did you really call us?” because all the people that I know are like, “Oh, God called us here.” Most people got called back to where they were born. At some point and God called them back to it. We were leaving where both Darla and I were born. So there was no like, “Oh, we’re supposed to go [00:40:00] here.” I was just kind of getting to that point of doubt. I needed some hope.

I had to go to a conference that I didn’t want to go to. It’s normally a boring conference for me but my pastor made me go. So I said, “well, that’s fine.”

I’ll go but I’ll sit in the back and play candy crush and get through it. So we’re getting ready for the first night and the guy who’s speaking is like 80 years old.

So I’m like, “This is not going to be entertaining for me.” My pastor says, “come here” and he takes me to the front row beside him, and then before it starts, he gets a phone call and leaves. He leaves me on the front row by myself. So I can’t play candy crush because everybody’s gonna see. So I did what I had to do. I listened and I took notes. He preached this entire sermon and I forget the title of it, but he preached it. He just read the verse when he started off, Hebrews 11:8 and he reads this [00:41:00] “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.”

I just remember floodgates just because you can’t write a better script than that. You know what I mean? Like God knows that’s what I’m struggling with. It takes you to this place I don’t want to be and He makes me listen and that guy steps up, and that’s the first words he said.

It’s just a couple of, probably hundreds of moments that I could share with you where God has given me the little nuggets of hope to just keep me moving in the path that He’s got to move me on. 

Carrie: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I look forward to when we can see each other in person and all hug each other and all that good stuff at church, it’ll be a good day. We’ll probably all be okay. 

Pastor Troy: That’s so true.

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[00:42:00] I really hope that this episode blessed you as much as it did me and I am so thankful to be connected to a pastor who cares about and is in support of mental health. 

You can reach me for show opinions and suggestions at our website hopeforanxietyandocd.com. 

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing was completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love.