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48. The Christian Meditative Practice of Centering Prayer with Rich Lewis

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode.

Today on the show, I’m privileged to be interviewing Rich Lewis, a speaker, coach and author.  Rich has been practicing centering prayer since 2013 as a way to relate and pray to God. He even wrote a book about it. 

Episode Highlights:

  • What is centering prayer and how do we do it?
  • What are the purposes and benefits of centering prayer?
  • What are the challenges in practicing centering prayer? 
  • Basic steps of centering prayer
  • Rich Lewis’ Book:  Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I dive deep into the transformative power of centering prayer with author and speaker Rich Lewis. We explore how this meditative practice can help reduce anxiety, manage OCD symptoms, and deepen our relationship with God.

I’ve discussed prayer and mindfulness in past episodes, but today, we focus on centering prayer—a practice that has intrigued me for its potential to quiet the mind and bring us closer to God. Rich shares his journey into centering prayer, explaining how he discovered this practice and how it has helped him find peace amidst life’s noise.

Rich breaks down the practice of centering prayer, a form of silent, wordless meditation created by Trappist monks. By using a simple sacred word or image, we consent to God’s presence, letting go of distractions and becoming more aware of His actions within us. I find this practice fascinating, especially in our busy world where silence can often feel uncomfortable. For those of us struggling with anxiety or OCD, centering prayer offers a way to quiet racing thoughts and embrace stillness with God.

Rich emphasizes that, even if we face challenges like racing thoughts or the feeling that we don’t have time, the benefits of centering prayer unfold over time. He shares how this practice can actually give us back time by helping us focus on what truly matters. By surrendering control and letting go during our sits, we can face each day with more peace and clarity.

Join us as we talk about how centering prayer is not just a form of meditation but a deep, spiritual practice that opens us up to God’s presence, helping us cultivate inner peace, confidence, and clarity.

Links and Resources:

Rich Lewis
Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer

More Episodes to Listen to:

16. Is Mindfulness for Christians? with Dr. Irene Kraegel

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 48. This is your host, Carrie Bock. On our show, what we do is focus on reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. In one of our very early episodes, we talked about prayer. We’ve also talked on the show about mindfulness in the past. Both of those were great episodes. I encourage you to go back and listen if you haven’t heard those. 

And today we’re talking with author and speaker Rich Lewis. A meditative practice called centering prayer. So I’m really interested in learning more about this and how it might be beneficial for people with anxiety.

Carrie: So thanks for coming in and talking with us Rich. I really appreciate it.

Rich: Sure. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. 

Carrie: So how did you get connected with and interested in centering prayer? 

Rich: I stumbled into it in late 2013 in a book. So prior to late 2013, I’d had read books by Carl McColman and he talked a lot about silence and how powerful and transforming it was. But I don’t remember him talking about a practice to do in this silence. So at that point, I just sit in silence but do not really have a practice and this was probably in 2012 and 2013. Then I was simply browsing Amazon looking for a book to read and I came across Amos Smith’s book, Healing the Divide: Recovering Christianity’s mystic roots.

In his book, he talked about a practice called centering prayer that he had been doing, I think for about 15 years at that point. So that immediately intrigued me because I was looking for something to do in this silence, which may sound funny, but I didn’t know what I was supposed to do in silence.

So I began investigating centering prayer and obviously, his book talked about it. Then I began reading other books on centering prayer. I started practicing centering kind of dabbling in it in late 2013 and then decided to, I’ll call it, jump into centering prayer, swimming, swimming pool on June 1st, 2014 and practice it more regularly on a daily basis.

So that’s how it happened. I’ve been attracted to silence and then I came across a practice that you can do in the silence in late 2013 and started exploring it. It resonated with me and I’ve been doing it since June of 2014. 

Carrie: I know silence can be intimidating for some people is, especially in the beginning. Maybe they feel uncomfortable with it. I’m curious for you when you started out was surges, like this internal craving in your spirit for more silence. Just a sense of like, life is so busy, so noisy, so much going on, like you needed that space. 

Rich: It just intrigued me. I guess I was looking for a new way to relate to God and a new way to pray to God. I guess I was all, I always considered myself an introvert, so I didn’t mind being alone at times. I go into crowds and have friends, but I don’t mind being alone or taking a walk alone or going in nature or going on a walker or a bike ride by myself. Since I had read silence was powerful. I thought it was the way to sit with myself and another neat way to just sit with God, rather than talk out loud to God. So it kind of intrigued me. 

Carrie: Okay. What is centering prayer exactly? How do you describe it to other people? 

Rich: Centering prayer has been around since what was created in the early 1970s by three Trappist monks. So, three Catholic priests saw a transcendental meditation going on and they wanted something for the Christian community. So they created centering prayer and the method itself actually was found by Fr. William Manager. One of the three Trappist monks kind of found the method of centering prayer in an old book called the Cloud of Unknowing.

And then the three of them, the two other priests, including himself sort of refined to practice and started teaching it to priests, clergy, and rolling it out to the public. So it’s been around, I guess, at this point for about 50 years. It’s considered meditation and a relationship with God and it’s silent wordless prayer.

I’ll describe how you do it. The guidelines are you sit comfortably with your eyes closed and then to begin your silent sit, you introduce what’s called a sacred word interiorly, and it really means you’re consenting to the presence and actions of God within. The word usually is anywhere from one to three syllables and it could be anything – love, ocean, God, Jesus, some type of short syllable word. Whenever you begin engaging your thoughts as you’re sitting there. What I mean by that is whenever you begin thinking about what you did before your sets or thinking about what you’re going to do when you get up from your sets, you realize that you’re beginning to engage your thoughts and plan and plot and that’s you’re supposed to let go of them.

So you’ve then re-introduced the sacred word. Let go of these engaged thoughts to bring you back to the present moment. Then you let go of the sacred word itself as well And you do that during the duration of the time that you’ve decided to sit, whether it’s five minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, you kind of repeat that.

It’s not a mantra. So there are mantra-based practices. Centering in this with centering prayers just used when it is needed. The last thing I’ll say about the sacred word is that it doesn’t have to be a word. Like if you’re an auditory person, it may work well. I started with a word and then I discovered I’m really more of a visual person. So I used an image and I would kind of picture the image and I wouldn’t like to paint it out and draw it out. But I would just think of that picture and think of that image to bring myself back. So if you’re a visual person, If you’re more of a physical person, you can use your breath. And then lastly, some people want to keep their eyes open, or they’re just afraid they’ll fall asleep.

So they keep their eyes open and stare at a spot four or five feet in the distance somewhere and kind of focus on that during this sit. So that’s a little bit about what is centering prayer. It is meditation, then a relationship with God where you are consenting to the presence and actions of God within and how long it’s been around and how you do it.

Carrie: Okay. So when people are selecting a sacred word or picture of that nature that they can use and kind of go back to, to redirect themselves to the practice, do they usually use the same one each time, or does it depend on the day? 

Rich: That’s a good point. So you should use the same word or visual image during the sit. Don’t change it because then you’ll spend more time in what’s my next sacred method instead of really sitting with God. So use the same method during these sets. Then if you discover, you want to switch a word, or I think I want to switch to an image, do that on your next sit. That is what we recommend and then kind of find the method that works best for you and then stick with it. So, as I said, I started with a word and then I switched to an image and I’ve been using the same image for years at this point. 

Carrie: What are some challenges that people run into when they start this practice? 

Rich: I guess the first thing they say is, they think maybe they’re failing at it because they have racing thoughts and they’re using their method numerous times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So they may think that they’re failing because they’ve used their sacred method a hundred times or 500 times. If you show up, you’re doing it right. So that’s kind of one thing people say, and then another thing, some people will, they’ll say, I don’t have time for this.

I challenged them to do this sit anyhow. So for example, I would challenge people, make it. The first thing you do is you begin your day and then get up and, and start your day. Then I encourage people to add a second sit and I think that’s where some people will say, well, I don’t have time, I’m too busy and I’m not arguing. But I’ll say it has a way of giving you back time from my experience. Now I stop what I’m doing and do a second sit right before lunch, no matter how busy I am. Then when I look back at the day, I discovered that I was very productive and I got done what I needed to get done.

And in fact, I really needed this sit because the benefit of the sit is that you’re bringing this let-go posture that you do in centering prayer into your everyday life. You’re letting go of the tasks that you don’t need to do and focusing on the things that you need to do. So has a way of giving you back time, but you don’t know that until you actually try it. So that’s another thing that people will say, I don’t have time to do it. And I’ll say, I think actually it has a way of giving you back time if you trust the process and trust your sits. 

Carrie: I imagine that if you feel calmer after this practice or more at peace, and maybe your mind is more clear to prioritize like you were saying of what’s the most important thing that I actually need to get done today and what is really inconsequential or it can wait till tomorrow.

Rich: Right. That’s exactly what happens in the gesture or the posture of letting go and opening to the moment, opening to God, opening to life comes with you outside of your sit. You take that same gesture or posture with you, as you get on with your day. I have found it calms me down, slows me down and helps me focus on what I need to do, and lets go of what doesn’t have to happen today.

Carrie: I imagine that you have different experiences on different days with this, but what are some of the experiences or the takeaways that you’ve received from these moments of centering prayer? 

Rich: So well during them, it’s not your even special life go of whatever your experience is. So if you’re experiencing joy and peace, that’s wonderful. But you are really supposed to let go of that. Come back to your sacred method and just continuously open to the presence and actions of God within. Obviously, you may experience painful thoughts because a lot of times things can come up.

Our bodies and I guess our minds hold a lot of repressed thoughts. Some of them we don’t even know we have, and they start coming up. When we do sit, other times it forces us to come to terms with some of our things and they come up. So we are kind of let go of them and come back to the present moment with our sacred word. It’s more so outside of centering prayer is where you notice the benefits of your practice. During the practice, our job is just to show up and let go of us and all of our thoughts, all of our emotions, and be open to the presence and actions of God.

I think of it as reverse prayer. God is praying for me, what I need, and that can be many things. It could be inner peace, calm, confidence, wisdom for tasks, nudges to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things. So all of this is happening during my sit, and I’m noticing it’s outside of my sit where I’m noticing I feel more confident or I feel more energized or I seem to have wisdom for a task that earlier I didn’t know how to do or I feel like I’m being nudged to try and do something new. That scares me a little bit, but I know it’s going to help me grow. So it’s outside of your practices where you notice kind of the fruits of the practice from God, quite frankly.

Carrie: So it’s an opportunity for the holy spirit to minister to your spirit.

Rich: Right. I mean, that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re sitting with God and letting God act in you and just resting in the rest of God and trusting that God knows exactly what you need for even when you get up from your set.

Carrie: I really like that because there are times where we may feel lost spiritually and we don’t even know what to pray or what to ask God for. But just like you’re saying, God knows exactly what we need, even before we ask that’s scriptural. So if we take that opportunity to commune with God and say, okay, I’m here and I know that God is here, then things can happen that are probably even outside of our awareness.

Rich: Right and that encourages people. By all means, don’t give up your other prayer forms and I pray other ways as well. Just add a silent meditation, prayer like this, and see how it can enrich and complement your other prayer forms and enrich your prayer life. If you think about it, often we might sit with a friend or someone special or spouse and you don’t always need to be talking. You’re just together taking a walk or together sitting and we’re together watching a movie. It’s kind of the same thing you’re sitting with God and you don’t always have to have words with God. You just sit with God and it’s like sitting with a friend, a special friend’s words aren’t always needed.

Carrie: I like that and there’s the truth to that. Tell us about when people are first getting started. Is there a length that you recommend that they start with?

Rich: Sure. The temple of outreach is the main center and prayer organization that was created in 1984. They suggest two sits or get yourself up to two sits of 20 minutes. But obviously, that could be rather difficult for people and so I suggest taking baby steps. The first thing you do is you get up in the morning before you do anything. And then two, make it five minutes and then begin your day, and then slowly work your way yourself up from 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 minutes.

I then encourage people to do the same thing with the second sit and take a look at your life. Where does the sit best belong? Is it before lunch? Is it before dinner? Is it after dinner? Is it later in the evening? Only you can know when it makes the most sense for you and then take the same approach with that sit if you have to start with five minutes and work your way up to 20 minutes.

The last thing I’ll say is they suggest 20 minutes because sometimes they can take you that long, just as still you’re in the inner voice is going on in your head. But in my opinion, any silence is better than nothing. So there are times where my first sit is 20 minutes and then my one before lunch is 7 minutes or 10 minutes. I think it’s more important to take the time for silence because any silence is better than no silence in my opinion. 

Carrie: Okay. So what are some of the other benefits that you’ve seen in your life as you’ve been on this journey of centering prayer? 

Rich: When I think about myself before centering prayer, then after centering prayer, even though, obviously right now into the present moment, it definitely has changed me. I enjoyed life then, but I think I’m more excited about life simply because I think I’m more present in the present moment and enjoying the present moment, whatever that is. So a practice such as centering prayer helps you kind of let go and be present, whether it’s for the task you’re doing or enjoying or listening to the person in front of you, who’s talking or taking a walk and enjoying the scenery.

It’s helped me have a bigger excitement for life and to be more present for life and more present for people. It definitely gives me wisdom for tasks. I’ll have things just pop into my head during the day that I couldn’t figure out earlier. Some of them are, as one example what my daughter works at Wawa and it was a Saturday and I’m driving home after picking her up and a solution popped into my head on SA I wasn’t even thinking about it. The solution to a problem at work popped into my head. So I tried it quickly when I get home. I didn’t plan on working on Saturday, but I quickly tried it and it worked. So I’ve seemed to notice sometimes solutions to things start popping into my head that I was struggling with. I attribute it to my centering prayer practice and kind of clearing the clutter.

So that kind of stuff. I think I’m a much more confident person and I’m definitely more willing to get out of my comfort zone and try and do new things, which is really what I’ve been doing since I’ve been practicing, centering prayer. I’ve created my website and I get out and teach people. I work with people one-on-one and I’ve written a book and I get out and talk to small groups or even one-on-one about the book. These are the things that I probably don’t think I would have done previously. I think they would’ve made me nervous just the idea of doing all those things would have made me very nervous. I never would even never have tried them, but centering prayer has given me a boost of confidence or God has given me a boost of confidence just to trust me and together we continue to move forward. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I think that’s great and that’s so much has changed for you. We willl certainly put the links into the show notes regarding this, but I know that you wrote a book on centering prayer. Tell us a little bit about that. If people are interested, in reading more and getting their practice.

Rich: The book’s called Sitting with God: A Journey To Your True Self Through Centering Prayer and it’s hard to believe that next month it’ll be out one year. What caused me to write the book was, I had mentioned earlier that Amos Smith, I discovered centering prayer in his book that I read in late 2013. Then I began kind of an email dialogue with Amos via his website and then we became friends along the way.

I began initially working with him off of his site. He’s the one that actually challenged me to write a book. He saw that I had a big interest in centering prayer and he thought his book was more academic and that I might be able to approach it a little bit more laid back than his book did. He actually challenged me to write a book. So at the time, I thought he was crazy because I had never really written anything long, longer than six, seven pages in college. He challenged me to think about what is centering prayer and what does it mean to you and just write single sentences.

So I did that and then I came back to him with about, I remember 15 or so sentences and then in his mind he said, there’s your chapters, go write your book. I didn’t think it was as simple as that. So I picked one of them and then I took a couple of weeks to write that chapter, sent it to him and I just wanted to get his reaction. To my surprise, he thought it was fresh, neat and had something interesting to say. So at that point, it dawned to me that, well, maybe I really can do this. So I kind of checked in with my wife and I said, how do you feel about me taking time to write a book? And she said, do it. So I decided to write the book.

I didn’t want to take time away from my family so this is pre-COVID-19. The book actually got written mostly on Saturdays. Believe it or not. Saturday mornings in Starbucks, I would get up at about 5:30 in the morning, put on a baseball cap, grab my laptop, go to the local Starbucks, get a cup of coffee, open the laptop and that’s really where the book got written over. Probably two and a half years or so, because then the next step after that was really kind of editing the book and then approaching publishers to see who would want to publish it.

So that’s really how the book happened. It happened because Amos challenged me to, and I’m really glad he did because those Saturday mornings were neat spiritual exercises for me. Other than the one chapter I did, which talks about Jesus and what did the scholars say we know what is true about Him, where I had to do some research, listen to some of the scholars, and read some of them taking notes down. I then decided from my notes and what am I going to put in that chapter.  In the other chapters, I knew basically what I wanted to write about, and I just needed to let the words naturally flow from my heart, to my fingertips, and onto the laptop, so to speak. So it was a neat spiritual exercise and that’s how the book got done. 

Carrie: Okay. So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests this question. What is a story of hope? Like a time where you received hope from God or another person? 

Rich: So this is going back to about 1997. I’ve been married for five years at that point and my wife and I, joked around about this, that we’re on the five-year plan. We wanted to be married without kids for five years, but then after five years, we wanted to have a family and we weren’t able to, it wasn’t working the natural way. So we decided we needed to explore other ways to have children.

We did a lot of praying to God and the pastor of our church actually knew somebody within the church that was also adopting and they were adopting from Russia. So we were put in contact actually with that agency. Normally, it takes a lot longer, but in our case, it only took us about six months from contacting the agency, doing all the stuff you needed to do, and then flying over, to pick up your child.

It actually took six months and in six months of beginning contacting them, we adopted our first son, Benjamin Lewis. We actually saw him on his first birthday. So we adopted him the day after his birthday because I remember celebrating his first birthday in the adoption where he was living and then we actually legally adopted him. I believe it was the next day that was something where it was a lot of hope and praying about we wanted to have a family and God was telling us that I want you to adopt a child. Obviously, we adopted Ben, and then we went back to Russia in 2002 and adopted Gabriela.

So Ben is now going on 25 and Gabriela, we adopted her in 2002, she’s now 20. Then they say this happens, you’re just relaxed or whatever. We were able to have children and Joshua came along and that we have a natural Joshua or biological son, but all three of them are our children and they all love each other and we don’t consider them biological versus adopted. They’re just our three kids. Josh was 13. So we have a 13-year old, a 20-year-old, and a 24-year-old. That’s what God wanted us to do. God wanted the first two. He wanted us to help two children that needed a home and we did, and then he wanted us to obviously have Joshua. So we did. 

Carrie: So you are triply blessed with children.

Rich: It was a neat experience. I think when all said done, I think I was in Russia five times, never expected that I would be visiting Russia five times for with this adoption process. But now, it was a wonderful experience and we’re blessed with three great,  still call them kids, even though the two of them are not quite kids anymore. Three great kids. 

Carrie: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that story. That’s a good one. Well, I appreciate you educating me and our listeners on centering prayer. This definitely sounds like something I want to add to my practice even if it’s just in a small way and maybe it’ll grow and build from there. I hope that some of our listeners try this out as well. So thanks for coming and sharing with us. 

Rich: Thanks for having me, and hopefully this was helpful for your community. So thank

Podcasts Carrie has been on

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Podcasts Carrie has been on

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Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP has appeared on several different podcasts to cover a variety of topics and to promote the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast.

Ayan Robin Dixon of Circle 31 International Women’s Ministry interviews Carrie about her experience as a former foster mom.

Joe Sanok interviews Carrie about how to start a private practice and transition off insurance.

Adam Kol asks Carrie’s advice on how to use insurance coverage for counseling, how to obtain low-cost or free opportunities for counseling and how to find a therapist that’s right for you.

Tracy Lowery asks all kinds of questions about everything from finding a counselor to understanding suffering as a Christian.

Brian and Carrie discuss prayer and anxiety by using the movie War Room as a jumping off point.

Carrie breaks anxiety down in an easy to understand way in Jeff Allen’s first episode.

Carrie discusses the process she has created for attracting and onboarding the clients she enjoys working with most.

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31. Using the Gospel to Overcome Negative Self-talk with John Stange

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 31. Using the Gospel to Overcome Negative Self-talk with John Stange

I had the privilege of interviewing John Stange, a lead pastor, professor, coach, counselor, certified speaker and author. John has written several books and his recent one is called “Dwell On These Things.”

Pastor John Stange shares with us his struggles with anxiety and his great wisdom and insight on overcoming negative self-talk through looking at God’s perspective toward us. We also talked about dealing with perfectionism as I am also a recovering perfectionist.

  • How to overcome negative self-talk and see yourself the way God sees you.
  • The importance of applying the gospel to your heart to combat anxiety and stress.
  • Practical steps for handling the pressure and responsibilities of leadership without feeling overwhelmed.
  • How shifting focus from perfection to helping others can reduce self-criticism.
  • The power of vulnerability in leadership and how to find strength in sharing your struggles.
  • Ways to combat anxiety by acknowledging control issues and learning to trust in God’s plan.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, I speak with John Stange, a pastor and author of Dwell On These Things, based on Philippians 4:8. He shares powerful insights on overcoming negative self-talk and seeing ourselves the way God sees us. With 23 years in ministry, John also holds a master’s in psychology, recognizing the importance of counseling skills in pastoral work.

He reflects on his own struggles with anxiety, acknowledging that as his responsibilities grew, so did his worries, leading to sleepless nights filled with “what-if” scenarios. Through self-reflection, he realized he was trying to control too much and was neglecting to rely on God’s strength. The breakthrough came when he started applying the gospel truth to his heart, finding peace in knowing that God is in control, not him.

John also touches on the topic of negative self-talk, especially in public ministry. He shares how, after preaching, he would often criticize his performance, focusing on imperfections rather than the impact of his message. The key shift for him was moving from self-criticism to asking, “Did I help someone?” He encourages us to focus on glorifying God and helping others rather than seeking perfection.

This episode is a powerful reminder that it’s not about being perfect; it’s about serving others with authenticity and trusting God to guide us.

Links and Resources:

John StangeDesire JesusDwell On These Things 

Transcript

Today’s episode is with John Stange who is a pastor and author. He’s recently written a book called Dwell On These Things based on Philippians 4:8. John has some great wisdom and insight into overcoming negative self-talk and seeing ourselves the way that God sees us.

So let’s dive right in. 

Carrie: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. 

Pastor John: Well, happy to be here, glad to be with you.

Carrie: Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Pastor John: My name is John Stange. I have been in full-time pastoral ministry for 23 years and my wife and I have four children. Two are in college, two are in high school. And in the midst of my ministry, serving as a pastor I’ve also gotten quite involved in podcasting and writing and have really been pursuing both of those as avenues where I really have a great opportunity to hopefully encourage people in their faith and hopefully help in a variety of ways. But that’s where I’ve been spending a lot of my time in addition to my service to the church and my ministry, just to my family. 

Carrie: One thing that I’ve found really interesting about you in my research is that while you do have a degree in the Bible, you also have a master’s degree in psychology. How did that process develop? 

Pastor John: Well, one of the things that I noticed when I became a pastor is that a lot of your preparation to become a pastor trains you to teach and preach the Bible and teach and preach theology. And that’s very helpful, but there are two other aspects to your role as a pastor that you really need to figure out a way to invest in one is leadership. So I spent a lot of time just studying leaders and going to leadership training and reading books on leadership and really invested in that. But then the other thing that is typically asked of you is that you be involved in a lot of counseling. And so when I was deciding what to do for a master’s, I decided to pursue counseling and psychology because so much of my task as a pastor involves counseling.

And it probably wouldn’t surprise you to discover that over the course of this past year in particular, I had more counseling than at any other time in my ministry. To the point where I actually had somebody tally up in one given week how much time I was spending on counseling when things were at their worst. And they said a full 29 hours of my week is being spent just counseling. In addition to all the other things that you have to do. So I actually had to figure out a way to balance that a little bit better because it was becoming quite excessive, but that is definitely a role that pastors are asked to actually step in and help out with. And so I wanted to make sure I did it well. And when I got my master’s, I thought, you know what? I’m going to pursue counseling, psychology. Learn these tasks and learn these skills so that I could serve our church even better, hopefully.

Carrie: I think that’s an important point because you can be a really great teacher and lack people skills and being a pastor, you have to find that balance between being able to communicate the word of God and also being able to relate and lead people, like you just talked about.

Pastor John: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And I’ve seen that a lot where people are really skilled in a particular task, or they have a lot of knowledge in a particular area, but they really struggle to take that from their brain to another life. And because that relational piece seems to be missing, so yeah, I agree.

Carrie: I’ve also interviewed a few people on the show who started out as pastors and ended up becoming therapists. And those stories are really interesting as well as kind of like an outflow of just the ministry that they were doing. 

Pastor John: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. That’s great. 

Carrie: We’re talking about anxiety today and incorporating that with spirituality, obviously. And I’m curious about your particular struggles with anxiety. 

Pastor John: Yeah, it’s interesting because I don’t know that at one season of my life, I would have really thought of myself as being particularly anxious. In some respects, I tend to think I’m an easygoing person. And then as life went on and I took on more responsibilities and as I was trying to lead my household well and try to lead our church well, I started to notice seasons where I would really struggle to sleep. 

I’m not a great sleeper to begin with. So I’m just going to confess that I think there’s something biological there that factors into that, but it was even worse than normal. And I can remember certain times where I would just find myself looking out the window of my bedroom, just looking outside, wondering in my mind why can’t I sleep.

And then as I try to lay my head down on the pillow, I would be thinking about all these what-if scenarios. What if this happens with your family or what if this happens with the church or what if this happens with your finances, all sorts of things. And I realized that I was becoming a rather anxious person.

I don’t know that I always demonstrated that to other people, but within my own mind. In fact, I actually think I tried to make a pretty strong effort to not demonstrate that to other people just to kind of portray that everything was fine. But in my own mind, I have to admit to you I really have gone through seasons where I felt particularly anxious and kind of went on a journey to try and figure out what’s at the root of this and what can I do that would be actually be helpful so that this doesn’t become such a dominant feature in my life.

If I’m going to be doing the things that I think God’s called me to do, I can’t be paralyzed by anxiety constantly. And I can’t give this full sway over myself. So I need to call it out into the light and I need to do something that’s going to actually help me overcome it.

Carrie: What was that process like for you? 

Pastor John: I had to kind of analyze what was at the root of it at first. And what I noticed about myself is that I was trying to control too many things, and I was trying to do too many things without help. And I don’t know if that was a pride issue. I think that’s part of it. I, you know, I think certainly it was a pride issue in some respects, but I also think it comes from this thought of not wanting to burden other people with your problems.

And then also just this thought that sometimes you get in your mind when you’re trying to lead, this is your responsibility. So you just think, look, this is my job. I have to handle this. I can’t give this to somebody else. I just have to do it. Right. It’s just my role. And so the first thing I needed to do was just figure out what was at the root of this.

And again, it was just control issues and a desire not to burden other people and just, you know, the burdens that come from leadership. But the solution for me was multifaceted. And a lot of these things I think come back to preaching the gospel to your heart, where sometimes if you’re trying to do too much, it’s almost like you’re trying to take Christ’s job and do it instead of relying on him to be the strength that we need. And so it was almost like a works-based false gospel that I was starting to preach to my heart that can be very unhealthy. And when I phrased it that way in my mind, my theological triggers went off and said, “Wait a second. You can’t preach something false to your own heart. You have to stop this.” And so I thought, all right, well, what does it look like to actually apply the truth of the gospel to my own heart? What does it look like to be content in Christ and to trust him to do the things that I can’t do and to rest in the fact that he is perfect? I am not, and I’m fine with that.

And so this was part of the journey that I went on, but when I started analyzing that seeing what was at the root and then preaching the truth of the gospel to my heart, that really made a huge difference. 

Carrie: I can really relate to that because I started this podcast and I was doing entirely too much. And I ended up hiring an assistant this year and it was super scary in the beginning.

Just the sense of like, “Okay. I’m like, yes, it’s a great thing that I have help, but I’m also like having to let go of control of things that I’ve been doing and what’s going to happen if I start letting go of that control and somebody else is gonna take over, and I think we do that with God so much in our own lives. We try to take control over things that we have no control over, even things like our own health like I’m up at night worrying about all of these things that could be happening to me are going on. And instead of saying, okay, I don’t have control over this. God loves me. He cares about me. He’s for me.

And I think that’s what you’re talking about in terms of having a theology of how God sees us. And really speaking that into ourselves is so important. 

Pastor John: Yeah, exactly. I agree. A hundred percent. 

Carrie: So, talk to us about negative self-talk because I think a lot of people really struggle with that. And what have you found to be helpful in your life?

Pastor John: There’s a variety of things that I have found helpful. And one of the things that I’ve noticed that is helpful for me is to know that I’m not the only person that wrestles with this. So when you serve in a public role, right now you’re putting yourself out there publicly doing a podcast, right?

So you’re just basically, you’re subjecting yourself to the opinions of others. And that could be a challenging task to do no matter what role you do it in. So you can imagine when I became a pastor I was subjecting myself to the opinions of many, many people and my opinion being sometimes the harshest and frequently, I would find myself preparing a message.

So I’ll use a sermon as an example. I’d prepare a message. I’d have it all straight in my head. I’d get up and I’d preach it. And then afterwards I’d have this thought that it didn’t go as well as I thought, or maybe the feedback I got on it wasn’t exactly what I was anticipating. And I would find myself spending the rest of Sunday beating myself up over perceived weaknesses in my presentation or times when I tripped over my words or ways that I could have said something better or something that I forgot to share that I meant to share or someone’s reaction that I misinterpreted or whatever it may be. And I just have all these thoughts going through my mind. Just the imperfections of what I had just shared and all this negative self-talk about, oh, why can’t you be as good of a speaker as this individual or that individual. And that’s a very unhealthy thing to start drilling into your mind. And I would suspect that’s probably one of the contributors to a lot of people who serve in public ministry roles quitting after a short period of time because they just spent a lot of time in self-accusation instead of refreshing their heart with the truth of the gospel and preaching the same message to their own heart that they just preached to their congregation. And eventually, I needed to get to the spot where I started to see the opportunities that I was being given to speak or to lead as opportunities to help people, not opportunities to look good while you’re helping people. And what I mean by that is this: Yeah it was a big change in my mind. I thought I used to wrestle with after I would preach a sermon, or lead a meeting, or whatever it may be. “How did you look doing that? Did you do okay?” And it was basically “how did you look doing it?” And then somewhere along the way, the Lord helped me to flip that in my mind to say, “did you help somebody?” And judge what I had just done by whether or not I was seeking to glorify God and help people. And when that became the measuring stick that really helped me with probably the major area of negative self-talk that I was wrestling with. Just trying to understand what it looks like to glorify God and help people Instead of worrying about how I looked while I was trying to do it.

Carrie: I think that’s been probably one of the greatest gifts that this podcast has ever given to me, just like, you know, through the Lord’s work, it’s showing me that it doesn’t have to be perfect to help people and I consider myself a recovering perfectionist. So I know that I have to go back and listen to these episodes and we joked. Before I hit record, there was a squeaky chair in one of them and it drove me crazy like I can hear that chair. And probably other people are listening to this in their car or they’re in the bathroom getting ready in the morning and they don’t care. You know, they’re probably not even noticing that. And somebody is going to be really blessed by that episode. But here I am and all I’m focused on is that annoying chair in the background.

Pastor John: Right. Instead of thinking of all the ways that you’re producing helpful content, you’re just hearing that chair that needs a little grease or a little oil.

Carrie: Right. So now I’m like, you know what? It goes out. There’s some people that like it and it’s helping some people and that’s all it really matters and it doesn’t have to be perfect in order to benefit other people. So that has been an unexpected gift, I guess, of going through this process.

You actually were really gracious enough to send me a copy of your book, “Dwell on these things” and I am really enjoying it. So I appreciate you for writing it, and you encourage readers to dwell on 31 different truths in God’s word. It’s written a little bit like a devotional, right? To kind of read one each day.

Pastor John: Yeah, it could be used that way for sure. Yeah. I wanted it to be useful in that way. If someone wanted to use the chapters in that kind of fashion, they definitely could. 

Carrie: So would you be willing to share a few of these with us and how they can transform our thinking and self-talk. 

Pastor John: Sure. There’s a variety of things that are mentioned in the book that kind of point us to things that the Lord is trying to communicate to us that sometimes we forget to communicate to ourselves, or we forget to repeat to ourselves after he’s communicated them. And so when you look through the book, you’ll see on day one, we talk about the fact that you are loved more deeply than you realize, and we start off the book with that concept because we want that to be a baseline for what we’re thinking about as we start to adopt God’s perspective toward us as our perspective toward us, as well as we work through the book, we talk about the blessing of walking by faith rather than by sight to experience greater joy.

I think a lot of times we think that there are all sorts of things we need to see ahead of time or know ahead of time to be able to actually experience contentment in life. But scripture shows us that we can walk by faith. We don’t have to walk by sight If we’re going to experience the greater joy that the Lord wants us to have.

I think something else that’s in the book that is most certainly a helpful concept for any of us. If we’re feeling anxious or just worried about a variety of things is the fact that scripture encourages us to have hearts that are ruled by the peace of Christ. And so when we get into the third section of the book that we talk about letting your heart be ruled by the peace of Christ.  And I can tell you just from experience, there are all sorts of things that I have tried to soothe my heart within this world or all sorts of things that I have told myself, this will bring you peace if you just acquire this or achieve this or obtain this or whatever it may be. And there’s nothing this world offers me that has ever produced lasting peace in my mind or in my life.

And when you look at what scripture teaches us, scripture teaches us that we can let our hearts be ruled by the peace of Christ. And when his peace is ruling in our heart, we’re actually being ruled or led by something that’s everlasting, not something that’s temporary, not something that’s just here for a moment and then goes away.

Some of the chapters in the book talk about ways in which we can live out the things that the Lord has taught to us. And so there’s a chapter where we talk a lot about giving grace to those around you. And that can be a very helpful thing for us internally as well, because we start to realize that we don’t have to demand perfection from ourselves. And we don’t have to demand perfection from others. And as recipients of the grace of God, we can demonstrate the grace of God to other people. And I love what scripture tells us in the book of acts, where it reminds us that Christ taught that it’s better to give than it is to receive.

And in a moment like that, where you’re giving grace to somebody else. I think we even have the opportunity to see how that plays out where just giving grace to somebody that ends up being a blessing in our own life and in our own heart. So those are some of the concepts. There’s 31 different concepts that we focus on in the book, but those are just a few of them-just a sample of some of the things that are in the book that I truly hope will be helpful to others. If they’re trying to develop a perspective of what does it look like to actually talk to yourself like God talks to you and repeat a message to your heart that actually lines up with the truth of his gospel. 

Carrie: That’s good. I know that in my counseling practice specifically, I work with a lot of people who have OCD sometimes like there’s a form of OCD called scrupulosity. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast before. It’s where you have all of these intrusive thoughts about God. You know, maybe God is angry at me. Maybe I’ve sinned. Maybe I’m going to hell, even though I know that I’m saved, those types of things people tend to ruminate on. And a lot of times people I work with are somewhat spiritually confused because they’ve sought out teachings to try to soothe some of this from a variety of different sources. You know, this person says you can lose your salvation. This person says you can’t lose your salvation. How do I know who God really is? And I know a lot of times people say, “okay, well in order to know God read the Bible that’s his word that’s his love letter to you.” How do we form this healthy theology of an understanding of who God is if there are so many different teachings that are saying are based on scripture. 

Pastor John: Yeah, that could be a tough thing for a new Christian, in particular, to try to discern. Thankfully we have the internal witness of the holy spirit and he points us in the direction of truth. So I believe that any suggestion I give needs to come under the fact that the holy spirit will actively point us in the direction of truth. I do believe he does that. So I would encourage anyone that’s really wrestling with that to just begin with prayer and trust the holy spirit to lead you in the direction of truth. And then as we’re looking at scripture, I think it’s also helpful to know that when you’re reading through the Bible if you really want to understand the Bible, you need to ask the question, what does this section have to do with Jesus? Or maybe I could say it this way: how is this portion of scripture trying to point me to Christ?

So if I’m in the book of Genesis, I need to be asking that question. If I’m in the Psalms, I need to be asking that question, but I mean the gospels or the letters of Paul or the general letters or the book of revelation, the whole thing is trying to point our minds to Christ. And specifically, when you look throughout scripture, you see the message of redemption as the Lord is trying to redeem lost humanity. And he’s trying to redeem fallen creation, right? Like it’s all, there’s this message of redemption all throughout. And so that points us to the gospel and the gospel is if you want to summarize the gospel, you could summarize it this way. It’s the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ.

And so in Christ lived the perfect life that we could never live. He lived that on our behalf. He walked a mile in our shoes. He’s our merciful sympathetic high priest. He knows all details of all things, and he actually walked it and lived it. And he did it perfectly without sin. And then in his death, he paid for our sin.

He took our sin upon himself so that ultimately we could be justified so that we could be declared righteous because he who knew no sin became sin for us. And then in his resurrection, he defeated the power of sin, the power of Satan. And the power of death. And he shares that victory with all of us who believe in him with anyone who trusts in him.

So the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ, I think it all comes back to that. So now, you know, let’s think about some issues that sometimes we deal with and let’s plug it into that metric. If I’m dealing with, and we were just joking a few moments ago about perfectionism and the desire to kind of get everything right.

You know, whether the chair’s squeaking or whether all the words we say are exactly right, or whatever it may be. We deal with perfectionism. Well, let’s plug that into the gospel. Well, scripture tells us that we are not perfect. But Jesus is, and he came to live the perfect life for us because we couldn’t do it, which tells me I need to stop pressuring myself to be perfect because I’m not perfect.

And if I’m pressuring myself to be perfect, I’m preaching a false gospel to my heart because Christ came to this earth and was perfect for me because in my own strength I couldn’t be perfect. And so, you know, so that’s one element of how I think preaching the gospel to our hearts. Actually helps and it helps point us in the right direction. But then when you get to issues like Christ’s death, you know, I think sometimes we think that we have to be some sort of sacrificial martyr who can’t ask for help or can’t ask for assistance that we need to somehow, you know, die for our own sin or suffer for our own center, whatever it may be. And yet Jesus came to this earth to die in our place because we couldn’t die for our own sin ultimately, and have any sort of redemptive aspect come out of that.

And so Jesus who is perfect died in our place. And then scripture tells us that he rose from the grave. He defeated sin, Satan, and death. And so that victory gets shared with me because I trust in him. He’s already secured that victory. So what sense does it make for me to walk a defeated life or to just spend all this time telling myself how I’m defeated in this area or this area, or this area? Christ already secured victory over my sin Christ secured victory over my faulty thing.

He secured victory over death. I don’t even need to live in the fear of death because he’s already secured victory over it. He defeated death and even the deception of Satan or the accusation of Satan scripture tells us Satan loves to accuse God’s people. And I think sometimes we repeat Satan’s accusations in our own minds, almost like we’re trying to do his job for him. And that comes right back to the resurrection as well because Christ secured victory over sin, Satan, and death. And so Satan is defeated. So I don’t need to act like Satan is victorious. He’s been defeated. And so for me, it comes right back to preaching the gospel to my heart and understanding that the message of the gospel is woven all throughout scripture.

And if someone teaches something that does not line up with the truth of the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ, then that gives me a good metric to know how I can actually filter that out and not welcome that into my thinking. 

Carrie: That was a lot. That was good though. It was a lot. I was really trying to filter in thinking through some of the things that we just talked about like is God mad at me? Well, you know, God loves you. God loves you. He sent his son to die for you. There’s no greater love than that. Nobody else is going to be out here giving their life for you. 

Pastor John: Right. When you look theologically, what scripture says, it says, you know, prior to coming to faith in Christ, we were under the wrath of God, right?

We were like, yes, you were under the wrath of God. It speaks of that in the book of Ephesians. Okay. But then Christ came to this earth and took the wrath of the father upon himself so that we could become objects of mercy. Instead of objects of wrath. And so scripture actually says, you’re an object of mercy now. So if scripture is telling me I’m an object of mercy and that Christ already took the wrath of the father upon himself, then why don’t I just believe what it says instead of just trying to make it up. You know, it’s like, we’re trying to make up the opposite of what scripture says because we want to make ourselves feel bad sometimes.

And it’s like, let’s not torture yourself. You know, just believe what it says and believe what he is. 

Carrie: Or sometimes we try to take over maybe the role of the holy spirit and almost like over-convict ourselves. Sometimes people can air on one side or the other, right. Then they’re never open to correction or conviction. But then on the other side, it’s like, let me pick apart and confess every single thing I’ve done. Even the things that I know I’m already forgiven for. I keep bringing up the past sins over and over and over again. And we’re just really torturing ourselves at that point. 

Pastor John: Yeah. You’re absolutely right.

Yeah. We’re prone to extremes. 

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So tell us where people can find “Dwell on these things”.

Pastor John: “Dwell on these things” can be found literally anywhere. So you’ll be able to find it on Amazon. You’ll be able to find it at Barnes and noble. You’ll be able to find it pretty much any store you go to and which I’m really excited about the wide release that the book is receiving. But if you’d also like to find out some more information about it, or if people would like to read the first three chapters for free and just kind of see if it’s for them, just go to my website: desireJesus.com and you can read the first three chapters of the book right there on the website for free.

The publisher gave me permission to be able to post that. And so that’s right there. You’ll see a link to it right on the front page of the website. 

Carrie: That’s great. And we’ll put a link in the show notes too. So since our podcast is called hope for anxiety and OCD, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Pastor John: Certainly. So in 2008, my wife and I feel like the Lord was calling us to move to Langhorne, Pennsylvania, which was a couple of hours south of where we were living up in the Pocono region of Pennsylvania. And we felt like the Lord was leading us to move here and replant a church that was just about to close down.

And you know, shut its doors forever. And so we moved here to get involved in church planting, church revitalization. And I remember at the time being very convinced that the Lord had called us to do that, but that doesn’t come with any guarantees. So when you’re moving to a new area, you’re not certain if you’re going to be able to connect with people. And I believe that the Lord was paving a way for us to do so. And in my heart, I did believe that it was all going to work. But I remember at one point very, very early in the process, this was just a couple of days or a couple of weeks, I guess I should say before we moved down to this area, I agreed to do a wedding down in this area, in the building that we were going to use. So in the church building. And I remember at that point, there weren’t really very many people that were part of the church. There were just about six or so active people that had been part of the church that hung on to help us plant the new church. And I remember as the wedding was about to get underway, I started watching people pull into the parking lot and I saw one car pull in and another car pull in and another car pull in and before I knew it, the parking lot was filled and I thought, wow, this is exciting to see for this wedding. I’m just hopeful that the day comes when we have worship services here, that people will actually become part of this church, that we actually have the opportunity to build a church. And I just remember looking out at that full parking lot and just praying to the Lord, just a very simple prayer.

I just prayed, Lord, may it be so. May this be the type of thing that we get to see again when this church really gets underway, not just for a special event, but for the believers gathering together for worship gathering together on a Sunday morning gathering together mid-week whatever, whatever the Lord willed. And so I just remember having filled with the hope of Christ in that moment. And just a confidence that the Lord was going to help facilitate that even though I was certainly tempted to drift toward anxiety in that process because it was certainly a big step of faith for our family to come and, and move to a new area and try and get the church going.

But I remember sometime after that, a few years after that, when the parking lot really was filling up on Sunday mornings and looking at that in my mind, coming right back to standing on that porch and thinking, all right, Lord, this is wonderful. You answered that prayer. You filled us with your hope.

You gave us confidence in you. And now we get to see with our eyes, the type of things that we were seeing by faith for the past several years. And that was a real blessing to me. It was confirmation that when the Lord leads you in a particular direction, it’s best to just obey because he’s got the details already figured out. And sometimes he asks us to make big steps of faith. And so we just go and we get to see what he has planned on the other side of that step. 

Carrie: It’s so beautiful when you’re able to just look back and see how far the Lord has brought you in a particular area and things, and all the challenges that there were, I’m sure along the ways of like, are we ever going to be able to do this? Is this ever going to grow? That’s awesome. 

Pastor John: Yeah. You’re right. Big challenges. 

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for being on the show and talking with us about preaching the gospel to our hearts. I think it’s been a great conversation. 

Pastor John: Well, Carrie, thanks so much for having me on. It’s been a real pleasure.

_____________________________________

I felt like we had a little bit of therapy on myself today on this episode, talking about my perfectionism and difficulty letting go of responsibilities and delegating them to my VA. In all seriousness, I really needed those reminders today that Jesus has overcome sin, death. Nothing is too difficult for him.

As I like to remind myself on a regular basis, God is way bigger than my problem. So allow that to encourage you today. If you would like to stay up to date with what’s going on on the podcast, you can join our email list at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Thank you so much for listening. 

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of by the world counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee.

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

27. Sending Hope and Love to the Not Yet Mothers

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 27. Sending Hope and Love to the Not Yet Mothers

This episode is for all the women out there who are hoping and praying for a child, for couples who are experiencing fertility issues and for those who are healing from heartbreak over childlessness. 

This is a compilation of stories of hope of my friends and different amazing women whom  I interviewed on the podcast.

Episode Highlights:

My best friend, Christin Jasmin Wilson, shares her heartfelt journey—navigating dating, giving her heart to the wrong person, and feeling distant from God before finding her way back to Him. She opens up about receiving God’s kindness, meeting her God-chosen partner, and welcoming her precious baby, Ellis.

We also reflect on inspiring testimonies from previous episodes:

  • (20:32) Summer McKinney finds joy in her blended family while waiting for God’s perfect plan.
  • (24:12) Holley Gerth and her husband celebrate grandparenthood through their adoptive daughter’s children.
  • (25:03) After experiencing multiple pregnancy losses, God blessed Dr. Kraegel with a beautiful child.
  • (25:30) My dear friend Michelle shares her emotional journey through infertility, foster care, and adoption—walking through deep depression after years of unsuccessful fertility treatments before witnessing God’s faithfulness.
  • (30:48) My own personal testimony and the powerful statement God gave me about having children.
  • (35:40) Lindsey Castleman and her husband’s incredible adoption story.

Episode Summary:

This episode is a little different—it’s not a solo episode, and it’s not exactly an interview either. Instead, I’ve compiled powerful stories of hope from women who have walked the journey of waiting, praying, and longing for motherhood. Some of these stories may be familiar, while others are new, but they all reflect the beauty of God’s timing and faithfulness.

For those who have followed my journey, you know that while I was once a foster parent with the hope of adopting, I am not a mother myself. Over time, I found myself repeatedly interviewing women who shared their own paths to becoming a family—whether through biological children, adoption, or other means. It made me wonder: Were these stories meant for me, or for my listeners? The answer, I believe, is both.

This episode is dedicated to every woman who is still waiting—who is praying, hoping, and trusting in God’s plan. You are not alone. You are seen, loved, and part of a greater story.

Before we dive into these inspiring testimonies, I want to take a moment to thank two incredible moms—my own mother and my mother-in-law, “Mom Bock”—for their unwavering support. Their encouragement has helped this podcast reach more people, and I’m endlessly grateful.

If you’ve ever struggled with the timing of God’s plan for your life, this episode is for you.

Transcript

This episode is going to be a little bit different because it’s not a solo episode and it’s not exactly an interview episode. It’s really a compilation of some different stories of hope. Some that we’ve heard before and some that we haven’t yet. For those who have been following along with my story or listened to our first episode know that while I have a history of being a foster parent and had hoped to adopt, I myself am not a mother. As I started to do these podcasts interviews, there was a string of a period of time where we were getting a lot of stories about people’s process in terms of becoming a family, whether that was praying, and then having a biological child, whether that was adding to their family through adoption or other means there was a lot of discussion about timing. And it really got me to thinking God are those stories for me or are those stories for my listeners? As so many times, I believe it’s both that as we minister to other people that God finds a way to turn around and minister back to us.

In this episode, I want to send love to the other women out there who may be are waiting or praying or hoping for a family who are not yet mothers. So I compiled some stories of hope from different women that have been on the podcast and discussed this journey. I also compiled some stories from just other women in my personal life who I know who God brought them on that similar journey.

Before we get into those stories of hope though, there are two moms that I do want to take time to say thank you to. One of those is my mom who’s a big supporter of the podcast. I know that she listens every week. She looks for the episodes to come out and she’ll send me emails if she sees Christian articles or hears of people who are talking about mental health and she’ll say, “Hey, have you heard of this person? It might be somebody that’s good for you to interview.” My mom was flying a couple of weeks ago. She asked a woman on the plane, “Hey, do you listen to a podcast?” And a woman said, “Yes, I do. So then my mom says, “Hey, would you be interested in a podcast about anxiety and OCD?” And the woman says, “Yes, I would.” My mom gives her a little podcast promo card that I had made up. That’s some amazing grassroots marketing right there. And so, thank you mom for all of your love and support in this podcasting journey. And the other mom, I want to think is who I call mom Bock, which is my mother-in-law. Mom Bock is also a supporter of the podcast and she listens to the episodes and oftentimes God will put people on her heart who need that encouragement or support from a particular episode.

And she will send it to them and has received some positive feedback about episodes that she’s shared. So I appreciate her supporting and sharing the podcast with other people as well. I joke with Steve that our moms are brand ambassadors for the show.

And now you know why our first story of hope for the not yet mothers comes from my best friend, Kristin.

How did I become a mother? That’s a loaded question. Hi, my name is Kristin Jasmine Wilson. And this is my story to motherhood. I am 39 years old. This is important because maybe like some of you, I wasn’t sure I would ever become a mother. I can remember from the earliest time always loving and being around kids around babies.

I grew up babysitting started at a very young age, probably too young if you asked me, but I started babysitting as early as 11 for my next-door neighbor. She had two beautiful kids that I used to watch on occasion. And I can even remember Connie and my mother serving with me at the nursery during the second service at church just because I loved kids that much.

You can say that this might be a God-given desire. I would say that I had this idea in my mind that I would always be a mom, but in my mind, by age 25, I have met the love of my life in college, fallen madly deeply in love, become a psychologist. I even found a letter that I wrote to Ms. Love in high school. I wanted to be a psychologist and have three kids of my own by 2011 or something crazy like that. However, sometimes life just takes you on a journey and that’s not necessarily how things go for me. I went to high school and had two boyfriends maybe, and all of which lasted two weeks. My singleness was a really, really hard thing.

I struggled being single for a very long time. I went to college. While I was in college, I decided to get involved in the church that was right across the street from our school. I again loved kids so much that I started volunteering as a college student in the middle school ministry. Yes, working with middle schoolers.

I know I’m a rare breed but I loved the naivety and the gullibility and just the welcoming nature of that age. In working in the middle school ministry though, remember college, I always thought I would meet the love of my life in college. I never did. And in fact, after college I started working for a ministry and for a nonprofit that really just worked with middle school kids all the while, knowing that I wanted kids of my own all the while, really wanting to be married and not ever wanting to have kids without a partner in life. I know I have had a lot of friends that have adopted or wanting to foster, and they’ve done that single handedly and by themselves and my hat goes off to them. However, I knew for me, this was not a journey I wanted to enter alone. Just knowing my own personality. I knew I would need a partner and a friend.

And so I prayed to God many nights that he would bring me not only a man of God but somebody who I could have children with and that we could raise children together. And I will say that came, but it came not without tears and not without many, many years of doubting God of asking hard questions of crying out to the Lord have yet one more guy who I was attracted to and had feelings for.

Not return those feelings, not return that love. I can remember during college and a little after I spent some years, are those college times in west Palm beach. And one of my places that I would really kind of have heart-to-heart conversations with Jesus was on the beach. And I can remember there was this one guy, and I really just had fallen head over heels in love with him. And he had no clue and I was good friends with his sister and I knew she could tell that. I just remember like really asking the Lord. Why just, why, why? I just remember asking, am I oblivious to guys? What is it that allowed me to not be seen by guys?

And really, I look back now and I see that had those guys looked at me and seen me, I would have fallen head over heels with the wrong guy. And really my heart is so honestly flip it and I fall in love at the drop of a hat. So it’s only the Lord’s grace and mercy that has allowed me in this that really kept me for my husband of today.

So, again, college thought I would be married by 25. That was my cutoff date in my head, that did not happen. In fact, I remember at 25 I actually freaked out and was like, “Oh my gosh” I remember my mom had me at 25 and I’m really like far behind the timeline here because I wanted to have kids and I thought by that time I would have them.

However, that was not always in the cards for me. And in fact, it took me a long time to even work through what it looked like to actually be in a relationship and what it looked like to actually start to date, which then led to motherhood. All the while though, working with kids, all the while though, taking care of other people’s kids. All the while, knowing that I wanted to be a mother. I remember turning 30 and still being single.

Actually, 29 going almost 30, grieving that year of the journey of being single and turning 30. And I almost wish that whole year of 30 away, I think it was 32 or 33. When I was 32 or 33, I finally was like, if I ever want to have kids, that I need to actually seriously start dating, started dating some guys on, through a few apps.

And at first, had really a hard time even wrapping my mind around if that was acceptable, how would I believe? And so, again, just really challenged my own thinking, but kind of came to the conclusion that if I was ever going to get married, I needed to be around guys and talk to them and have conversations.

And so I went on a journey of just having dates and chronically and all of those dates, some were really fun and some are really, really bad. And I could probably tell you stories, but I don’t want to embarrass any of the guys that I went on dates with, but let’s just say there’s a few that really still have me kind of chuckling today.

Fast forward to 2016, I was talking to a guy who happened to live in California and actually had a daughter. I knew that was going to be a little tricky, but I had been laid off from the organization I was working for. It closed down and I didn’t have anything keeping me at my current location.

So I decided to move to California and see if things would work out. I honestly remember really just sacrificing a lot of my ethics and a lot of my morals for something that was only temporary and somebody that wasn’t real on something, and for somebody that wasn’t authentic. And I really think in some of those, in that particular instance, I had really become so sick of being single and just was trying to do things my own way and in my own timing. Honestly, at 35, I was feeling like I was the only 35-year-old woman who had never been married. I was feeling it was the only 35-year-old woman who didn’t have kids. By this time I had high school friends that have had babies.

I’ve had college friends get married and have babies. I had friends adopting babies. And I was just for a long time, felt like my life was on this pause track, where I just had no control. And so many people kept saying, well, why aren’t you married? Or you’re a catch, why are you still single? When are you going to start having babies of your own?

And I really hated those questions because I felt like it was my own fault that I was unable to be a mother at that time. So at 35, I got in this relationship and I just decided to try to make things happen of my own accord and was completely devastated when this guy really only wanted to use me for certain things and then spit me back out. So with that, I packed up my bags and I moved back to my home in Chicago and kind of worded off dating for a while. Actually, it was like, I’m done. This guy is stupid. And really my heart was broken into a million pieces and it was really partially my own fault for giving it to him without putting up boundaries to really safeguard my own heart.

And of course, during that time, my relationship with the Lord was non-existent because at that point, I felt like I didn’t trust him and I was angry. I didn’t want anything to do with it. That he didn’t love me enough to give me a husband and children. By the time I was 35, knowing that most women go through menopause and are unable to bear children in their forties.

So, that was hard. Sometimes, the life that I’ve lived is great. I’ve gotten to do so many things as a single woman. I’ve gotten to explore. I had gotten to travel and have had so many different experiences that I would not have had if I had been married and had kids. Maybe I would have, I don’t know. But at that point, I was just done with being a good girl and following the rules and thinking that, you know, God blesses you and honors you. I think if I were to put it into different words, I was trying to make myself follow this God in order to get the blessing. And so, in other words, it wasn’t really about knowing God or trusting him.

It was about I’m going to do this. So in the end I get this and ultimately that work. So for a small little time, I said I’m not dating anyone else. At the time I did have a dating coach, just because I was like, if I’m going to be dating and dating on an app, I might need some extra advice.

I was actually visiting her at the time and staying with her that weekend and this guy popped up on my app and I was super wary and super kind of, not even sure I wanted to talk to him. She encouraged me. I showed him, you showed him, showed her like our conversation and, and she encouraged me just to start a conversation.

And so we did, and he was actually from Chicago. I was already planning to move back there after having my heartbroken. Wasn’t about to stay in California. And from there fell in love and met my husband, my current husband. We dated, that was in 2017. We dated for a couple of years, got engaged February 22nd, 2019.

We’re married by June 22nd, 2019. I have also had a lot of friends that have gotten late married later on in life as well. So I’ve had a lot of friends, but like some of the ones that have gotten married, like late in their late thirties, they really struggled with infertility and struggled with having babies.

And I was not even sure that I would be able to conceive right away without some sort of help. And so we decided that when we got married and went on our honeymoon, we would not prevent, but not also not like put a lot of pressure, not try. And behold, we got pregnant within the first couple of months without even trying.

And I remember laying in bed after finding out and after like looking at the pregnancy test and really coming to terms with it and just hearing the song In Christ Alone play through my head. As like my song of coming really back to Christ and back to a relationship with Jesus like that was what had sealed and kind of redeemed and, you know, kind of brought me back and brought forgiveness to who’ve had was I think. I was slowly coming back there with just the introduction of meeting my husband. And there’s a lot of emotions and hurt that had happened. Because of my own decisions and my own choices that I think with me becoming pregnant.

That was my aha moment. It’s been a journey too. I’ll tell you that. Becoming a mom, especially at this age was not easy, at 38. When I got pregnant with him at 38. It was probably a lot harder than most people. I dunno. I can’t say I was never married at 25. But I did have a cousin who got pregnant around the same time and she was in her twenties.

And there’s a drastic difference of energy between a 20-year-old mom and an almost 40-year-old soon-to-be mom, but the gratefulness and the humility that I feel like the Lord offered actually allowed us to name our son Ellis Jason, which just means the kindness of God.

Ellis means kindness. I just really felt the Lord was kind and allowing me after all these years of struggling, I wanted to become a mom and just to have his kindness and giving us a son is truly a gift. So if you were like me, maybe you have dreams of becoming a mom and having children. I would say it’s not too late.

I would say that the Lord is good. He is kind. He gives life and brings us through things that only teach us lessons to then share and bring hope to others that might be in those same situations. We are not without hope. We are not without life. 

Carrie: It was really sweet to have Kristin share because I’ve seen her through this whole journey and the spiritual growth process that she’s been on.

I know her story is going to be encouraging for those of you maybe who are still single or have been through a long period of singleness.

Summer McKinney story from episode 15 also ties in with the same theme of waiting to be married. 

Summer: I have to look at my own marriage. I was single until 28, got married at 29, I came from a very large family and always wanted many children.

And of course, the older I got, I mean, I could do the math in my head. Okay, Lord, you know, this is it. It’s going to happen. Of course, that was before like, you know, people in their forties started having kids and stuff, but there’s like, “Okay, wait.” My large families are going to happen, but God was in the details. My husband and I knew each other from way back but just went our own separate ways and whatnot but we reconnected and I inherited three amazing children in our marriage. And one of my deal breakers was I wanted a child. And so my husband, we’re going to get married and he would have to agree that we could have a child together.

And he said, “okay.” So again, “Okay, Lord.” I have three children and I want that comradery. I want them to grow up with a younger sibling. And so my timing was shortly after. Let’s settle into married life and blended family life, but few years were going by and it’s like, “Okay, Lord. Is this going to happen?”

You know, just a lot of questions. And my husband kinda gave up like, okay, it’s just not going to happen. And it took us a few years. God knew. Again, being in the details and perfect timing. The bonding that I was worried about. The boys were in high school whenever we had our son and through college, one of the boys stayed home and commuted, and then the bonding was just amazing.

And it was just all of those fears and all of those concerns or those questions. It wasn’t my timing but the timing was just perfect. You know, it wasn’t always my way but it was God, God knew what he was doing and just being in the details. And so that to me was just the hope of a large family, the hope of the bonding and that unity among the family. And God just blessed it. And so when those doubts or fears or things come into play, whether you’re single or whether you’re in an empty marriage, or divorced, and you still have that desire, I think that God is in the details and his timing is amazing. It’s not always our time. That’s kind of, when I think about, big thing in my life where desire and hope and blessing come together. I would say it’s definitely my family unit. 

Carrie: Yeah, it’s amazing how God will give us those desires like for you, it was for to have a large family. And God totally filled that in a way that you couldn’t have imagined at that point in time like you were thinking that all of those children would be completely biologically yours and you ended up with a beautiful family picture and it’s amazing how God’s dreams are much better than things that we could dream on our own. And when we try to do it our ways or in our timing, it just never quite shakes out and we can become disappointed.

________

While Summer’s story didn’t look how she had envisioned, Holley Gerth’s story from episode 19 didn’t turn out how she anticipated either. 

Holley: My story of hope is my family story. I went through about a decade of infertility. My husband and I couldn’t have our own kiddos. So we ended up adopting a 20-year old who basically aged out of the foster system. And so she’s now 27. She got married and we are nanna and poppy to Eula and Clement.

And so I literally wore a ring on my finger that said hope for all those years. And the ending to our story is not at all what I would have imagined.

__________________ 

Our last few stories are stories about infertility. On episode 16, Dr. Irene Kraegel shared about her pregnancy losses. 

Dr. Kraegel: They were years for example where I had multiple pregnancy losses. I write about this in my book as well, too. And not really knowing how that would resolve and God brought us a child. And we have this beautiful nine-year-old boy that we love. And that’s something that brings me hope. 

_________

The next story is from a dear friend of mine that I have known since about 2014.

Michelle: Hi guys. My name is Michelle. I’m here with you today to share my testimony as well as my infertility foster care and adoption journey.

So I was married and divorced at a young age to my first husband. We did not have children together. And that was not something we had really tried to do, but when I met what would eventually be my second husband, I knew that I did want to have children. We were a little bit older when we got married, my second husband and I. I was 35. And so immediately after we got married, we did start trying to have our own child. Unfortunately, that was not happening for us. So we went to a fertility doctor and over the course of I’d say about a three-year span, we had approximately non-procedures done and close to $12,000 spent. That did not bear any fruit at the end of that three years, I think we were both emotionally, I was physically spent and both somewhat spiritually spent as well because we both prayed and prayed over this journey. And really, desperately wanted to have our own child. And at that time, we could not understand why the Lord was not providing that for us.

The way I was looking at it is there are so many people that have children that don’t even want them, but God, why are you not providing us with a baby of our own? And it made me feel unworthy of having a child. I was looking at it is God, if you could let this person who is abusive to their child or neglectful or abandoned their child if you can let them have one, what does that say about me? What does that say about the parenting you think that I would do God? And I really went into a deep, dark depression at the end of that three years. I began to resent my husband because I felt that I was the only one going through the emotional struggle, the physical, especially the physical struggle because all these procedures were happening to me.

And some of them were very painful and I felt like he was doing a small fraction of the work. And over time through scripture and prayer, I did grow to see that that was very unfair of me to think that way, but I’m human. And I felt that I had been abandoned by the Lord during that period of time. I was also very resentful of other women who during this phase were discovering they were pregnant and having healthy pregnancies and having these beautiful children. And what makes it probably even worse is my career was in early childhood education. So my career was children and especially babies and toddlers and those early stages of life.

That was my career. So day in and day out, I was seeing and working with these babies. It really brought me to a low place. So my husband and I eventually decided that we would go through the foster care program through the path classes, but I told him that he would have to do all the legwork of getting a set up for the classes that basically he would just tell me the time and place and I would just show up. And so that’s what he did. We went through the path classes. In three of those classes, I met other women who were in a very similar situation who felt almost identical to how I felt. They felt worthless and useless. And the way I felt during that period of time during that dark period is that I basically had one job to do.

The Lord made me a female, which meant I was supposed to have children and I couldn’t do the one job that God had given me to do. And I just felt just so inadequate and so useless that some days I didn’t want to get out of bed. Luckily, through prayer, through scripture, through family and friends who rallied around me, around us, my husband and I both and supported us and a God who never gives up.

He never fails us. I began seeing how, even though those were the things that I wanted, I wanted to have my own child, my own biological child. I wanted to know the joys of being able to tell family and friends that were expecting a child, to feel a life growing inside of me and seeing this beautiful baby when it was first born and caressing them against my chest, having all those moments through time and through prayer God very gently showed me that he had a different plan for me. Even though I kept questioning God, what is this? What plan is this do you have for me? I don’t understand. I don’t see it yet, God. He was just really patient with me and just showed me that I need to stay the course. So we finished the path classes.

We sold our small house and bought a bigger house so that we could accommodate children. And we knew we probably wanted to have multiple. It was 2015, we got our first sibling set. It was a brother and a sister and we actually got them on my daughter’s sixth birthday and my son Larry, he was seven about to turn eight. So we went from zero to 60 in 2.8 seconds. We had no kids and then we had two kids and it was the youngest child’s sixth birthday. So we scrambled to throw a little party. And our lives changed from that day like we could have never imagined.

We have been blessed beyond measure. Even in the rough times, we have been blessed because the Lord has stretched us. He has grown us. My husband and I have grown closer together. We have grown closer to the Lord and God revealed to me pretty quickly into the foster care process that his plan for us was to adopt children who needed a family. It took us three and a half years to be able to legally adopt our children. Then finally on January 30th, 2019, we were able to legally adopt Kimberly and Larry. And now our journey has not always been an easy one. There has been days where I have wanted to pull my hair out and say, God, what have I done? And then immediately I’m filled with all the love and joy that the Lord has put into our heart when he brought us these kids. They are amazing and we knew pretty instantly that we were meant to be their parents, that these kids were going to be with us forever. And it has been such a journey. It is such a blessing.

And my husband and I both feel that we just stayed the course with the Lord. He’s always sovereign. He’s always faithful to us. He never leaves a season. He never abandons us. He shows us what we need eventually in his time and not our own. So I just hope this fills you with some peace and some hope and knowing you’re not alone.

If you’ve been in a similar situation and that God does have a plan for you you may not see it at this moment, but he will reveal it to you. Just be faithful. I hope you have a wonderful day and I just push blessings upon you. God bless you all.

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Carrie: I really appreciated the vulnerability and the spiritual wrestling that Michelle shared in her story, because I believe that someone who’s listening is really going to be able to relate to those thoughts and questionings that she had and rustled with God.

On episode 22, Lindsey Castleman shared her amazing story of adoption with us.

Lindsey: During this time and being in this community group, my husband and I found out that we were not able to have children. And then there were six couples, four out of the six couples found out that they could not have children, which was crazy. I didn’t know it before we came. We weren’t like, “Hey, let’s do an infertility community group.” It just happened. And then we all discovered these things. Hopefully, it wasn’t something we all drank. So we were in this together. We started going through this adoption process for us, my husband and I. One day, one of the girls in the community group texted me and she was like, “Lindsey, my mom is in a Bible study with this woman who’s asking the whole Bible study to pray for an adoptive family for her nephew’s son like it’s kind of a big goal. And she was like, “My mom remembered you guys and community group, and would you be interested?” And I’m like, “What?!” It was kind of wild because I was actually at this church.

When I got the text message, I was literally in church and they were about to do this worship and they do this forever long worship. So I’m like, all right, some do I’m worshiping and I’m asking God, I’m like, God, is this our son? Is this what we’re supposed to do? And I heard a very clear yes.

And I don’t hear that kind of stuff all the time. A very clear yes. And so I said, all right, God, well, you’re going to have to tell my husband that you said yes. He’s a little bit more of my risk-averse kind of guy. I’m a little bit more of a risk-taker. So anyways, I called my husband because I was on a trip.

So he was back at home and I was in California and I called my husband and I said, “Hey, in our community group said that.. What do you think? And he was like, “I’m open.” And I was like, “oh my gosh.” That’s not usually the response I get. I usually get all the worry questions. And if you’re in the Enneagram world, he’s an Enneagram six.

So that makes a lot of sense. To make a long story short, even though I’ve already made it long we ended up meeting with that family. And then on a Tuesday, they told us that they chose us. And then we brought our son home that Saturday. We kind of look back and we go, “oh my goodness.”

Even just us being kind of obedient to want to serve, and not obedient and like little begrudging, but just like, “Hey, we really would like to serve.” Just how God placed us with all of these people that then placed us with our son who could not have been a better fit. And if I go into the emotion of it, I will cry right now but I’m not going to be staying in my head about it.

But just in that sense of we couldn’t imagine our lives without them. And so in this place of feeling so hopeless and infertility, God was already working behind the scenes and bringing us hope just through these things, we could have never orchestrated for us to be able to be parents to our son.

So that for us is like any time it’s like, “Oh, is God working on us? Heck, yes. He is. He is and he’s working today, like working today not just in biblical times. He’s working today. He is a God of hope and he is a relational God that loves us and wants to be so close to us. And that’s beautiful in that way.

_______

Carrie: I started out this episode by talking with you about how I am not yet a mother, either. I wanted to share with you where I am on my own personal journey in case that provides any extra support or encouragement to you. Steve and I pray about having a family. We’re very open to what does that look like for us since we are older. The most amazing thing though, is that one of the times I was praying about this, I feel like the Lord spoke to me, “Carrie, I’ve already given you many children.” I have to say I didn’t receive that in a sense of God’s not going to give me children. However, it made me actually so grateful and thankful because that statement is true.

I was looking back at some old pictures that I had under the bed before we were in the digital era. So they’re actual physical pictures that I have from times where I did VBS with children. Times where I worked at an afterschool program with children in the inner city. Times where I was involved in helping with youth ministry and middle school ministry.

Many of those kids obviously are not kids anymore. They’re grown up and some of them have children of their own. But when I received that word to my spirit and prayer, it gave me so much joy and encouragement that I’ve worked with children almost my whole life in some capacity. I know that God has used me to minister to the next generation even though that may not look like having children in a nuclear family.

So if that’s you, if you’re that person that’s maybe single and serving in the children’s ministry church, or you’re in college working at the afterschool program and investing in kids know that even though they’re not your kids they’re God’s kids and you are providing just a valuable service by loving on them, encouraging them, supporting them in their growth journey process, physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever that looks like for you. 

Sometimes mother’s day can be a hard day or an emotional day for women who aren’t mothers. I’ve had people tell me that they don’t attend church on mother’s day due to this. If that’s you and you’re hurting on that day, I would encourage you to find something that you do enjoy doing and plan to do it on that day. Definitely take good care of yourself and you know what you can handle emotionally. Whenever your journey is whether you’re a mother, whether you’re not a mother, whether you’re not a mother yet, know that God loves you very much, that he has an amazing plan for your life, and things never work out exactly how we plan them out in our mind. However, we know that God is good. We know that God is loving. We know that God is pro-family and whatever that looks like for you. I just pray that this podcast encourages you in your journey wherever you are right now. 

Some of you may have listened to this episode because you’re in this season. For those of you who listened to this episode, and you’re not in this season, maybe you already have children and you’re just a regular listener to the podcast, there’s a good chance that God has put someone in your circle who is either struggling with fertility or questioning how can they be single for so long and have children, or they can relate to some of these other stories. Will you please just share this episode and allow it to be a vehicle of encouragement to the people that you know who may need to hear this. And if this episode has impacted you positively, please let me know. You can always reach out at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Head on over to the contact page as always.

Thank you so much for listening. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee.

Until next time. Maybe comforted by God’s great love for you.

26. A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 26. A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

In this episode, Carrie sits down with Peyton Garland, an author and advocate, to discuss her powerful journey with OCD and how it has shaped her faith.

Episode Highlights:

  • The impact of growing up in a conservative environment and the stigma around seeking therapy.
  • How Peyton became the first in her family to seek therapy and break generational barriers.
  • The role therapy played in helping Peyton manage anxiety and intrusive thoughts.
  • How Peyton learned to separate OCD from God’s unconditional love and grace.
  • The power of embracing faith and therapy in overcoming mental health challenges.
  • How Peyton’s journey led her to write Not So By Myself, offering hope and encouragement to others facing similar struggles.

Episode Summary:

Some of our most impactful episodes feature personal stories, and today, we bring you an inspiring one. Peyton Garland joins us to share her journey with OCD—how it has shaped her faith, her experiences with therapy, and the challenges she has overcome.

Peyton, an author and wife from Alpharetta, Georgia, opens up about her struggles with anxiety and OCD, particularly when her husband was stationed away for work, leaving her to deal with overwhelming thoughts on her own.

Peyton’s journey was difficult, especially as she grew up in a small, conservative town where seeking therapy was seen as a weakness. Despite the stigma, she courageously sought help and became the first in her family to do so. Her decision not only changed her life but also inspired others in her family, including her father, to confront their own struggles.

A significant part of Peyton’s experience is her battle with religious OCD (scrupulosity). Raised in a legalistic church environment, she feared God and struggled with obsessive thoughts. Through therapy and faith, Peyton learned to separate her OCD from God’s grace, embracing a loving and compassionate understanding of Him.

Now, Peyton shares her story through her book, Not So By Myself, encouraging others that even in their loneliest, most anxious moments, God’s love remains constant. Her story is a reminder that seeking help is an act of strength and courage.

🎧 Listen to the full episode for an inspiring conversation. If Peyton’s journey resonates with you, remember you are not alone.


Related Links and Resources:

 @peytonmgarlandwrites
Not so by Myself: A safe space where God doesn’t fix the loneliness, but sits with you instead

Transcript

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD. Episode 26. Our most popular episodes thus far have been personal experience stories. Peyton Garland shares her experience of struggling with OCD. How that’s impacted her faith, her journey of going to therapy. It’s really good stuff in here, guys. I hope that you enjoy the show today.

Carrie: Thank you for coming on the show, Peyton. 

Peyton: Happy to be here. 

Carrie: I’d love you to just tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Peyton: Sure. I am Peyton Garland. My husband’s name is Josh. He and I live north of Atlanta in Alpharetta, Georgia. We have two of the most obnoxious but sweet puppies in the world, Alfie and Daisy. So we are dog parents and proud of it. My husband is a pilot and I’m an author. So we’re both finding the careers that we love and thriving in them. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. Why did you want to be on the podcast and tell a little bit about your story today?

Peyton: I think mental health in this day and age is almost a buzzword. I think it’s something where people are finally willing to talk about it. They’re finally willing to listen, but I also think that the voices that need to be at the forefront of these conversations are people who do struggle with anxiety, who do struggle with OCD, who know what it’s like to be in a therapist’s office.

So this podcast just seemed to embody that ability to have real conversations with people who truly go through this stuff.

Carrie: At what point in your life did you start to notice like I’m starting to struggle here with my thought life?

Peyton: I had always been a worrier and I knew that, but the older I got the worst that got the more irrational the worrying became.

So like I said, my husband, is a pilot. When he first finished flight school, which was about two years ago, the only airport where he could get a job was in Indiana. So states away, hours away. He and I had just moved to a new town in Georgia for a new job for me. So new town, new job. I’m not near my family.

I’m not near my friends. Two weeks after we moved there, he moves to Indiana. I’m being by myself and being by yourself leaves lots of room for your headspace to just go crazy. And at that point, maybe two or three months into him being gone that’s when I said this worrying is not only irrational. It’s starting to impact me physically, too like I’m losing weight. I can’t put back on. I’m not sleeping. I eventually went to a therapist which in my small country town was not a welcomed thing. Therapy is almost seen as defeat like you couldn’t take it, you couldn’t handle it. Your faith in God wasn’t strong enough. I went to a therapist’s office, found out I have intrusive thought OCD.

And what I’ve learned with OCD is that often anxiety and depression are kind of buddies. They sit right beside OCD and they take turns. So I’m just on a big journey. Now I share a lot about that in my new book, Not So By Myself. Just how you’re not really by yourself in the quiet space, even when your brain is super loud.

Carrie: That’s so good. So it was a, you had a big stigma hurdle to even get in the therapy office coming from a small town, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Be the tough girl. 

Peyton: Oh yeah. Well, I’m so glad you said that. In my book one of the chapters, I talk about how all three of my great uncles and my grandfather were drafted into the Vietnam war. All four gone at the same time and when they came home, they quickly learned that in order to not talk about everything they’d seen, they were just to keep quiet. That silence was strength. Those two just seem to parallel and they passed that idea down from generation to generation to generation.

So my generation about the third or fourth generation, we’re sitting in a culture now that saying, “Hey, it’s okay to say I’m not okay. It’s okay to go get help.” And I think I actually was the first person in my family to go to a therapist. And the beautiful thing is I had a parent to follow after that. [00:04:37] I had a grandmother follow after that, and that was a very beautiful thing to kind of see loved ones, say, “Hey, you know what? There’s some things I haven’t been okay with. I have a dad who has PTSD and traumatic brain injury from serving in the military. So lots of people now getting help for hard things they’ve been dealing with for decades.

Carrie: I love that ripple effect in your story. It’s like one person starts in the family starts to experience some relief and change and hope, and then other people say, “oh, hey, that sounds really good. I want to get on board with that and maybe I’ll try therapy out as well.”

Peyton: Absolutely.

Carrie: Do you remember that experience of just being so nerve-racked and were you super scared to start talking?

How was your therapist able to help you feel comfortable even sharing some of these things that you had? You’d really just rattled around in your head and maybe talked to your husband about.

Peyton: Sure. This is crazy. You’re literally outlining my book chapter by chapter. 

Carrie: I haven’t read it either.

Peyton: One of the chapters is called green tea and therapy and it’s about my first time in a therapist’s office. Like I said I come from a good old country town. I walk in this therapist’s office and there’s like this spa music in the background. There’s bright but soft colors everywhere. I’m way out of my element.

I was not a yoga kind of girl. But my therapist just asks me a simple question. She’s like, “Hey, is there anything I can offer you to drink?” And I’m a green tea kind of girl. So I said, green tea, just give me some green tea. And I remember death gripping that green tea coffee the whole time.

I don’t even think I drank it. I just death gripped it because one thing I knew and this whole room of nothing I knew. My therapist started with the big question. She had to tell me about yourself like I got to know what goes on in your head. What’s going on in your heart and your spirit and your family.

When I left I had no mascara left on my face. I mean, I did, but it was like down to my chin on my neck. I still hadn’t touched the green tea. It was just an hour of me unearthing everything that had been there for over a decade, honestly. So it was a wild, uncomfortable, but relieving experience all at once. It was a whirlwind for sure. 

Carrie: Was that when you got the diagnosis of OCD? 

Peyton: Yes. So I have a dear friend, her name’s Wendy Nunnery. She’s an author too. She has it. And I had met her for coffee one day and we hadn’t been friends for long and she was just vulnerable enough to say, “Yeah, you know I struggle with intrusive thought OCD.

And she was telling me all the things she worries about. And I went, “oh my goodness.” Number one, I’m not by myself because I have been thinking some off-the-wall things and I can’t talk myself down from them. I’m always afraid of running people off the road. I overthink being near knives. I overthink changing a child’s diaper.

All of these things that I just thought I was literally psychotic, like there was some serious problem. This wonderful woman of faith is sitting in front of me, a mother, a thriving wife and she just lists everything that’s been rattling in my head for years. And so I sat back still wasn’t sure about therapy, but kind of a pin that had to be what I had. And once Josh left it was very, very unhealthy.

Like I was just in a place where I wasn’t functioning. I said we gotta get help and that’s exactly the diagnosis I received. 

Carrie: So in some ways that was probably a little bit relieving to know what you were dealing with because when people don’t know what they’re dealing with, then they throw all kinds of vernacular labels on themselves. 

Peyton: Right. My dad, you know, has PTSD and he had that when I was growing up. So I was around it. But PTSD almost stems from something very traumatic, which is what happened with him in the military in his line of work. But for me, nothing traumatic had actually happened to me and I couldn’t figure out why I was having a hard time.

As a good kid with good grades and a good family. I mean we had struggles with what my dad went through, but I must have been a bad person if I couldn’t control what was going on in my head. The level of relief and the pressure that just fell off me, that was a God thing. There was no way around that.

Carrie: Did you struggle spiritually during that time? Like why has God allowed me to struggle with this? And those kinds of questions, maybe that people with OCD face. 

Peyton: Yeah, I’m just going to send you my book when this is over. My fourth chapter is called church games. And so again, I grew up and not hating by any means on denomination, on religion, but I went to a very small brick and mortar countryside church. Women were told not to speak. I was told it was King James, or it was literally not the Bible and how dare you touch it. Women cannot lead worship. I grew up in such a rigid church culture that when you combine that with OCD, you’re quite terrified of God.

I got a credit card in the mail or a debit card a few months ago and my security code, well, I guess I can’t say it, but it had lots of the apocalyptic kind of numbers going on and I literally almost sent that back in the mail. I was like, “no, we can’t use that like, I can’t touch that.”  Wild, irrational thoughts OCD we’re paired with this very rigid church culture.

And I was afraid of God for years like he was just somebody that I was told to love, but I was scared of loving him because I was just scared of who he was or at least who he seemed to be. So yeah, I struggled spiritually for a long time. 

Carrie: Like maybe tying into some of the obsessions, like is God mad at me or am I going to go to hell.

Peyton: Exactly. Very perfection-oriented. But like I said not just a perfectionist or perfectionist with OCD which can take on a completely different level of fear, anxiety, and all the like.

Carrie: So what you’re saying is that you have intrusive thoughts, but you don’t actually have any compulsions. Is that so?

Peyton: It’s funny. So there’s several different branches of OCD like intrusive thought OCD there’s harm OCD, contamination OCD. With me, I do have a form of contamination OCD. I always had. I washed my hands a lot as a child If I spilled anything on me like a chemical. Cleaning panics me. I was afraid to be near chemicals.

So when COVID hit, my contamination OCD, the compulsion went through the roof like I had always been a hand washer. I’d always been a clean person. I started keeping a chart of how often I washed my hands. When the world shut down and we went home, I washed my hands an average of 57 times a day and I spent two-plus hours a day following through on compulsions with cleaning, with mopping, with wiping everything down with wiping my hands down my phone down. Just putting Josh in a Clorox fog as soon as he came through the door.

So there are definitely compulsions, but I see them most with the contamination OCD. 

Carrie: How has that affected your, your marriage, and your relationship there? Have you had to kind of train him on how to help you at times? 

Peyton: He is very gracious and I’ve been very blessed with someone who’s willing to listen.

He has been mentally a very strong man which is fantastic. Obviously, he worries about things. There’s hard things for him, but he is very mentally stable, which is what I need. I’ll be honest when we first got married is when it really started kicking up. I’ve learned change kind of messes with my OCD like getting married, buying a house.

I had just gotten a new job. Just all the things. And bless his heart he just thought it was birth control. He thought maybe it was him. I thought it might’ve been him. We didn’t know. Maybe only a few months later is when the piloting thing happened and he was gone and I got help. So for us it’s funny, but for him it was a breath of relief when I found out I had OCD. He went, “oh, okay. It’s not me. It’s something else.” Not that we can fix OCD but we now have something we can work with. We have a name and a face to it and he has been so good. What I love about him is he respects when I’m having anxiety.

He respects when there’s a compulsion where I’m just like, I have to follow through with it. There’s no way around it. But he also calls me to work through compulsions. He calls me to say, “Hey, let’s take a step back and rationally talk yourself down from this like we don’t have to wash your hands five times in a row. We can do four and walk away.

It’s okay. So there’s been a little bit of training on his part, but he’s really been gracious and I’ve been very thankful for that. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. We talked about kind of how to support your anxious spouse on a previous episode. So I’m curious about your experience on that. 

What was that process like of finding tools and strategies and things to help you in therapy?

Was that really hard and what kind of therapy did you utilize? 

Peyton: Yeah, so my therapist and I, we do brain spotting. I don’t know who all knows, but literally, I find a spot in the room where my brain just kind of seems to be at peace and attune. I like natural light, my brain and my eyes always go to a window where there’s natural light and my therapist just says, “Hey, let’s just start walking through what you’re feeling. Why you’re feeling this way.”

And every time brainspotting walks me back to what started a trigger, what started a compulsion, what started the anxiety that’s just built up and is now bottling over. So I love brainspotting because often my compulsion or my thought has nothing to do with what’s really bothering me. OCD is just really good at twisting stuff.

So I love brainspotting. It earths my head. It just brings it back to earth. But also we just learned really healthy techniques. Even things like social media can spike my OCD. Just because OCD can thrive off of just about anything it wants. I do 45 minutes of social media a day. I have a timer on my phone. That’s something she and I worked through. 45 minutes was a healthy number for me. When the timer goes off, I’m done with social media. Josh and I have what we call a contamination zone in my house. If there’s something that I just feel is completely contaminated and I don’t want to touch it. He puts it in a corner, in a room and we let it air out because in my brain letting it air out is safe. Just little things like that have made a huge difference for us. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I’m going to get somebody on the show to talk about brainspotting now. I think that that would be an interesting episode, too. 

Peyton: That would be fantastic. I love it. I love brainspotting.

Carrie:  Yeah. We have talked a little bit about EMDR on the show and it’s similar.

There’s some similarities in terms of just kind of like really tapping into that brain level response and the nervous system. And like you said, when you trace OCD back, it doesn’t make sense. You’re like, “wait a minute, this goes back to that time when I was this age and this experience happened.”

I love that it really gets down deep underneath the presenting issue. Because it’s not actually about the stuff or the cleanliness. It’s about that piece underneath it, whether it’s a lot of times like dealing with uncertainty or loss of control or those types of triggers can be really prominent

Peyton: Well, that’s what wild is. Every time we brain spot and we work it back, it is either a very harsh church experience I had, or it’s just growing up in a household with a dad with PTSD that was undiagnosed for years. Every time, my brain has trillions of off-the-wall thoughts, but every one of them works its way back to one of those two things.

Carrie: Wow. Do you feel like you were a particularly sensitive kid growing up, more sensitive to people’s emotions or kind of absorbing everything?

Peyton: I’ve taken a bunch of Christian spiritual gift tests and discernment comes back every time no matter which one I take. But my mom did say as a child, I tended to know without actually knowing, like if there was a relative who was going through a hard divorce or someone just lost someone.

My mom said as a child, I gravitated to them. She said I’d walk up and sit in their lap. I would sit and talk to them. I mean, maybe that had to have been just God. Just knowing who needed some extra love. My mom swears as a child I could just walk in a room and I just knew who needed even just a “hey” or a hug.

Carrie: That’s good. We had Mitzi Van Cleave on the show before, and she talked really about how OCD was a part of her sanctification process. That there was this process of growth through affliction is what she talked about it. Can you talk about a little bit about that in terms of your spiritual journey?

Do you feel like you have some similarities there? 

Peyton: Sure. I’m so glad you asked that question. It’s one of those things where I think Paul mentions in the new testament that he had a thorn in his side. I think that’s a favorite thing to debate is what was the thorn in the side. But I think regardless, the reality is we each have a thorn in the side. I think on this side of heaven, we will eternally fight or struggle over, wrestle with and I think OCD is mine. There’s no magic pill for OCD. I’m not going to wake up one day and my brain is just going to be super chill.

The bittersweet thing that I love about this thorn in the side is it constantly calls me back to a place of grace. As a perfectionist with OCD, I’ve had to come to grips with the fact I cannot be perfect. The church is saying is you’re a human. You’re not perfect.

I always knew that, but that always wasn’t good enough. I was like, “no, I’m going to prove the church wrong. I’ve got this. I can do this.” OCD literally said “ha, no” like here’s something very irrational and very imperfect for you to imperfectly worry about. You know, go have fun, good luck. And so OCD quite forced me to accept that I’m not perfect. And because of that, growing up in a really harsh church culture and stepping away from it and wrestling with OCD, I can now look at God and say, “Hey, you know what not only am I not perfect, but you are.” And as churchy as that sounds, there’s so much grace in that because God has not put the standard of perfection on me.

And I know I can’t meet it, especially with the OCD. And so now it’s just grace and I had not lived under grace. I had not lived by grace. It was just a catchy phrase that at one point I thought would be a good tattoo on my wrist. But OCD has been the gateway to God and grace for me. And so for that I am always grateful.

Carrie: How did you make that perspective shift in terms of your view of God? Did that come through getting around like a healthier church environment? 

Peyton: Sure. When I was about 16 or 17, I just told my family, I said look I’m out. Not out, like I’m not piecing Jesus out, but I’m not here. I finally started studying the Bible and the Bible and the guy behind the pulpit were not lining up.

[00:20:43] So I said, look, I can either believe a man who’s like everybody else or worse, or I can believe God. And so I’m just going to go with God. That sounds like a smart decision. That’s the Sunday school answer, but it’s one that I’m going to adopt for myself. And so I stepped away from that church. I found a much, much healthier church which made so much of a difference. Within that church, I found women my age who were also not afraid to mention that they struggled with mental health and that right there was probably the ultimate game-changer. I was being around women my age who had been perfectionists. I don’t know if you know the Enneagram, but I am in an Enneagram one on the personality chart.

We are reformers. We are the spearheads for all that is just and good and right. But I was blessed to find women just like that, who turned around and said that I’m not always good. And just and right. I do struggle with mental health. And even through all of that God still sees me as good because he loves me and because he’s good.

And so that was the revolution in my spiritual journey. 

Carrie: I think finding the character of God. And I’m really connecting with the character of God who he says he is in the Bible and experiencing that in your life as absolutely a game-changer. I’m curious. This is a question for you from the trends of the podcast. Our podcast is for people with anxiety and OCD. But the most popular episodes that have been downloaded have been personal stories about people with OCD who have experienced that. Even more popular than our very first episode just like, Hey, this is the podcast. This is who Carrie is and all of that. What do you think? That’s because people just aren’t talking about OCD and the church.

Peyton: Oh, absolutely. When I wrote my book, not said by myself, my editor called me and she said, Hey, sweetheart, you got to lighten up on the church, just a smidge. You gotta pull back just a littlest. So I’ve talked about that with much more grace. Thanks to my editor. And my book, I think we talk about the soul in the church, but I also think if God created the soul, he created the body and he created the mind.

And we are called to honor all three of those. We are called to keep all three of those healthy to keep them in check. Iron sharpens iron, I think mind, body, and spirit. And I don’t know where the disconnect happened with the church and that aspect. I don’t have a clue, but nobody talks about your mind and your physical health either.

And if those two aren’t in check often the spirit’s not in check. And so we’re walking around almost wobbly like one-third of us is functioning like it’s supposed to in the church and we wonder why things still feel like they’re falling apart.

Carrie: And they’re not working. And this concept, which I’m still just wrapping my mind around is like the holy spirit lives in me like in my body that just really blows my mind.

So I’m like, does how I treat my body that has to interact with my spirit? I know it doesn’t change the holy spirit. I’m not saying that, but I mean how I interact with my body changes my spiritual health. It affects my spiritual health as well as my emotional health and physical health.

It’s just all interconnected. And I think you’re right, I think we do try to look at those things separately and don’t interact with each other. And if we want to be more healthy spiritually, we also have to be more healthy emotionally and physically. It just makes sense. I love that.

Talk with us about this concept in your book of not being alone that seems to be a big thing for you. Why did you title the book the way that you did and how does that incorporate with what you wrote about? 

Peyton: I think OCD was probably one of the most isolating things in my life. Like I said, even growing up, I was a worrier. My friends called me the worrier.

I was the mom friend like I was always 45. I was always isolated because I was the mom. I was the worrying one. I was the one who can not just ever let loose and have fun now, not in the name of sinful pleasure, but I was just never relaxed. I can never breathe and that was one of the most isolating things for me.

And so as I got older, life got harder, stuff got more serious intrusive thoughts just have a field day with that. I mean, because there’s just so much more stake. Once I got married like sexual OCD stuff went through the roof because never had I ever had sex. And now I have, and my brain is like, “Oh, here’s 5 million things we can take and run with.”

So I continue to get lonelier and lonelier because all of these thoughts made me take a step back, take a step back. I was not like everyone else. Something was wrong with me. Should I call the sheriff on myself like what is going on? And so when Josh physically left and I was physically by myself, that was probably one of the darkest places in my life because I had always been mentally and even spiritually isolated just from the church I grew up in and struggling with OCD. And here I am not physically alone and it took therapy. It took God’s grace. It took two or three very dear friends that made you realize you literally cannot be alone. And it sounds so churchy. It sounds so cliche.

But like you said, if the holy spirit is truly embodying you then I am called to believe that he is embodying every lonely space I’m walking through. So he is quite literally paving the way and telling loneliness to just step aside like it doesn’t have a place here, not in my heart, not in my spirit, not in my physical body, not in my mind. And so that’s how I chose the title, Not So By Myself. 

Carrie: So huge. I hope that as people hear this podcast and these stories that they recognize that within themselves too like I’m not alone. I’m not alone in my struggles and that God’s here with me and God can break into those lonely spaces. And I love that he just meets us where we’re at, you know, all of our mess.

Peyton: That’s what I say. He works best in the mess. That is where he thrives. 

Carrie: So cool. Towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is the time where you received hope from God or another person.

Peyton: Oh, that is such a good one. OCD is just so wild. So harm OCD for me, I’m always afraid of running people off the road. I’m always turning my car around to make sure I haven’t run anybody off the road. There was one day I was in my little black Chevy car that I had gotten in high school and I was driving home and I just had one of those intrusive thoughts of I tried to pick up my phone because someone was calling me and I thought, “oh my gosh.”

[00:28:00] like for those five split seconds, you have no idea if you were looking at the road, what could have happened? So I just hit the brakes. It’s a quiet country town, but I still hit the brakes in the middle of the road. And I went to go whip my car around and somebody sideswipes me because I’m irrationally flipping my car in the middle of the street.

And I thought, “oh, my word. I have just caused a wreck. I have no clue if this person is okay. I don’t know how I’m gonna tell a cop I have intrusive thought OCD and that’s why I’ve had a wreck. So I pull off on the side of the road and this woman pulls off and I see her and she’s older and I think she’s 85.

I have partially killed her. She’s going to need a hip replacement. This woman gets out of her car. I’ve damaged her car like this was on me. She comes over and she grabs my hand and she looks at me and, and even in a small town, this was one of those random chances where I didn’t know who this was.

She said, “I just want you to know that this is God’s providential hand, that you’re safe and I’m safe.” And she prayed over me and just left. And I’m sitting here going, ”my insurance is going to go through the roof.” I definitely just clipped the back end of her car. So no insurance going up. I didn’t pay anything for this woman’s car.

I swear she was an angel. So that was just hope because that was a hard thing. Mentally, I was in a bad place. I made a bad decision as a driver and this woman just prays over me, gives me grace, and just drives off. And I will never forget that day. I will never forget her face, the street name, any of it as long as I live. That was some serious hope that I will not forget.

Carrie: Wow. What a testimony of God’s grace. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. I think this has been great to talk about all the different things that you talked about and I’m sure it’ll be an encouragement to somebody.

————-

I enjoy getting to have these guests on because it really reduces the stigma and shame surrounding being a Christian and struggling with OCD. Maybe you or someone you know have had an experience such as overcoming a phobia or working through social anxiety, I would love to feature some of those types of stories on the podcast.

If that’s you or someone you know, you don’t have to be an author to be on the show or a public speaker or a therapist. None of those are requirements. Just reach out to me via our contact form on the website. I look forward to hearing from you and being able to share more stories of hope with you in the future.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s grace love for you.

eat love for you.

2. Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 2. Unanswered Prayers for Healing with Pastor Troy Powell

I had the opportunity to interview my Pastor Troy Powell. We discussed how people with anxiety and OCD wrestle with having these disorders and not receiving healing from God for them. He shares his own experiences of how his prayer life has grown and developed over the last several years. Pastor Troy discusses prayers that were answered and how he handles the ones that weren’t.

Episode Highlights:

  • How Pastor Troy went from falling asleep to engaged during his time with God in the morning
  • Receiving the call to plant a church and the unexpected miracles along the way
  • How praying to God when you are mad or distressed increases intimacy 
  • Doubts and questions during prayer
  • Hope for unanswered prayer

Verses discussed: Phil 4:6, Eph 1:9

Episode Summary:

In this episode, we dive deep into the complexities of prayer, faith, and mental health, especially when it comes to unanswered prayers and the struggle with anxiety or OCD. If you’ve ever felt frustrated by your prayers going unanswered, particularly around healing from emotional struggles like anxiety or OCD, this conversation is for you. Pastor Troy opens up about his own journey of building a consistent prayer life, dealing with frustrations and disappointments in prayer, and finding peace in the midst of unanswered prayer.

Pastor Troy shares his personal experiences with God, how his prayer life has evolved, and the importance of being vulnerable with God in those tough moments when we’re feeling discouraged or even angry. He talks about the power of “lamenting” — a biblical practice of expressing frustration and sadness to God — and how that can deepen our relationship with Him, rather than push us away. He also reflects on how God uses difficult experiences to shape our faith and how sometimes, unanswered prayers bring more profound growth and understanding than we might expect.

We also discuss how God’s timing and responses to our prayers can be a way of teaching us valuable lessons, especially when we’re facing long-term challenges like anxiety, OCD, or any emotional turmoil. Pastor Troy highlights how developing a deeper connection with God can shift our perspective on what prayer truly is, moving it from a transactional request for answers to a genuine relationship with our Creator.

👉 Be sure to listen to the full episode to hear Pastor Troy’s powerful insights on how to persist in prayer, handle unanswered prayers with grace, and ultimately trust in God’s bigger plan for your life.

Links and Resources:

Victory Church, Smyrna, TN “You’re here on purpose because you have a purpose.” 
Victory YouTube channel

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