Carrie explores four ways to pray about OCD that go beyond asking for removal. She shares how praying for key aspects of your journey can bring new strength and perspective to your path with OCD.
Episode Highlights
How prayerful guidance can help you navigate your personal OCD treatment journey.
How asking for spiritual clarity can help you manage and respond to persistent OCD doubts and fears.
Ways to build resilience and trust in God’s plan throughout your recovery from OCD.
Episode Summary
Hi, I’m Carrie Bock. In Episode 136 of Christian Faith and OCD, we explore a question many of you have grappled with: how to pray about OCD when it seems like God isn’t removing it from your life. As a licensed professional counselor and someone deeply rooted in faith, I understand how difficult it can be to find relief from OCD through my work with clients. Over the years, I’ve learned that there are several effective ways to approach these prayers.
Here are four ways I believe can transform how we pray about OCD:
Pray for Wisdom: OCD is tricky, and it’s not always easy to distinguish God’s voice from the intrusive thoughts. James 1:5 reminds us that if we lack wisdom, we should ask God, who gives generously. I encourage you to pray for discernment in recognizing what is truly OCD and what is not.
Pray for Guidance in Treatment: Whether it’s deciding on therapy, considering medication, or finding the right support, pray for God’s guidance in every aspect of your treatment journey. I’ve seen firsthand how God provides exactly what we need when we need it, so don’t hesitate to ask for His direction and provision.
Pray for Courage: Facing OCD requires courage. It’s hard to move forward when uncertainty and fear are holding you back. Just as God called Joshua to be strong and courageous, I believe He calls us to take bold steps of faith in our recovery. Pray for the strength to do the hard things, knowing that God is with you every step of the way.
Pray that God is Glorified in Your Weakness: This one isn’t easy, but it’s powerful. I’ve learned that God’s power is made perfect in our weaknesses. When we allow God to work through our struggles, He can use them for His glory. Remember, you are not disqualified from serving or ministering because of OCD—God can still use you in amazing ways.
In this episode, I also share some exciting news—we’re starting monthly Zoom hangouts! This is a chance for me to get to know you, answer your questions, and build a community of support. If you’re interested, make sure you’re on our email list to get the details.
These four ways to pray about OCD are just the beginning. I’d love to hear from you—what other ways have you found to pray through your OCD? Visit our website and share your thoughts. Let’s continue to support each other on this journey.
If this episode blessed you, I’d really appreciate it if you could leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews help other Christians struggling with OCD find the show and start their own healing journey.
Thank you for being part of this community. Until next time, may you find comfort in God’s great love for you.
Episode 136. I know so many of you who I’ve talked to have just said I have prayed over and over and over for healing from this OCD. I have been praying that God would remove it from my life and take it Out of here.
Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower, wife and mother, and licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.
We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.
I’m really excited to let you know that We are going to have some monthly Zoom hangouts. So this is just for me to get to know you, the listeners, a little better, answer any questions that you have. If you are interested, I will be sharing the Zoom link with our email subscribers at the time of this recording.
I’m not sure day or time of this event, but if you want to become an insider of these types of things, definitely get on our email list. I always enjoy hearing from our listeners. I thought about activating up and firing up a Facebook group, but I just don’t think that I have the bandwidth for any potential drama that may come from that.
We are going to just hang out on zoom maybe once a month, see how that goes and go from there.
I’m excited for today’s episode to be talking with you about four ways. to pray about your OCD differently. So if you just feel like you’re stuck in this repetitive cycle of asking God to take it away from you, asking God to heal you, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with asking for that.
I think that that is a beautiful prayer. But after a little while, you may just become frustrated if God doesn’t supernaturally take that away from you, or maybe you’ve been in treatment and it just still feels like that thorn in the flesh. So I want to give you some different ways that you can pray through this that I think will help you as part of your recovery process.
One is to pray for wisdom. James 1. 5 says that if any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. Let me tell you, OCD is tricky. Module 10 of ICBT, we go through all the tricks and cheats of OCD. One example is maybe this time. So you think it’s OCD, but then OCD says, maybe this time I’m not actually OCD.
And this is a real threat. So you actually do need to pay attention to it. My personal favorite is living the fear. You hear about the norovirus and your stomach starts to hurt. You experience a headache and you’re like, maybe this is a brain tumor. And then all of a sudden you focus on that headache. The more you focus on it, the worse it feels and you worry some more.
And just your, your mind and your body are interacting in that way. The more afraid. you are, the more your head hurts and vice versa. I believe that if you pray for wisdom, the Holy Spirit is going to guide you in those moments to build awareness of what is OCD and what is not. What is God’s voice? What is OCD?
And we’ve talked about this on the show before. So pray for wisdom. Two, pray for guidance in terms of your treatment process. What types of treatment should I pursue? If you’re thinking about getting a medication, pray about that. You know, there’s so many different options, and I know a lot of people have reservations about medication.
But what if that’s something that God uses to help you? You know, each person is individual. And so pray about the decisions that you make in regards to your treatment. And if you’re looking for a therapist, praying that God connects you with the right person. Pray for financial provision to get the help that you need.
I know therapy can be expensive. And also I know God is amazing at providing for exactly what you need at exactly the right time. So pray for guidance in terms of your treatment process. Number three is courage to walk in faith and do the hard things. God calls us to God sized tasks and we need faith and his strength to be able to do those hard things.
OCD recovery can be really hard and scary to move forward in faith and dealing with uncertainty and not knowing. God told Joshua after Moses died, before they went into the promised land, to be strong and courageous. And the strength and courage Joshua had came from his connection and partnership. In God’s work, God knew he was giving Joshua a God sized task, so while he told him to be strong, he had to be dependent on God to be able to have that strength.
It’s interesting how those two things play together. So pray for courage to walk in faith and do hard things. Number four, pray that God would be glorified in the midst of your weakness. This isn’t necessarily an easy prayer because we don’t want people to know about our weaknesses. We’re all about hiding those, but sometimes we just can’t.
We have story after story in the Bible of God using insignificant, broken people to accomplish his purposes. In 10, this is from the famous Thorn in the Flesh passage, Paul is speaking and says, But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I’m weak, then I am strong. Paul had a thorn. We don’t exactly know what that was, but I think there was a reason that God didn’t put it in the Bible for us is because we all have something in our life that feels like it’s holding us back.
But also in this passage, Paul talks about that being given to him to create a sense of humility. I’ve spoken to many of you who are involved in vocational ministry or para church ministries, missionaries, all kinds of different people with OCD, even people who are volunteering in their church, and I want you to never ever think that you are disqualified from ministry because you struggle with OCD.
That is a lie straight from the enemy, so do not give in to that. You’re not qualified by what you’ve done, or by worldly success, or trainings that you’ve had, but by what God has chosen to do through you. And when you are weak, He is strong. If there’s someone who exemplifies this really well, it’s my husband.
There are plenty of times where he’s physically weak, struggling with fatigue. Can’t really walk very long distances, but this summer he had the incredible opportunity to go to Guatemala with his former pastor and preach the gospel to kids and teenagers. And he allows God to work through him even when it’s not a good day physically for him.
Can God be glorified from OCD? You may be thinking, that’s ridiculous. I don’t even see how God could use this or use my situation to help anybody. It’s just so messy. But if you’ve been through something, God wants to give you a testimony. And we don’t always get to see what that looks like right now when we’re in the middle of it.
But know that maybe one day you’re going to be sharing that with somebody else, and you’re going to be able to help them. Maybe they don’t know they have OCD, and you’re going to be the one to say, yeah, all those spiritual questions that you have. I had all of those and here’s what it is. I found out it’s scrupulosity and I don’t want you to suffer one moment longer than you have to know that you can go get help for that and that this is not a spiritual issue of what you’re dealing with.
Like how powerful would that be if that was your experience, if you were able to help somebody or just to say, Hey, I know what that’s like. I’ve been there and I’ve wrestled with some of those same things that you’re wrestling with right now. And I just want you to know that there’s hope. And maybe you’re sharing your story with somebody, or God prompts you to share something that you struggle with, like OCD.
Not because that other person is dealing with the same thing, but maybe they’re going through something hard too, and they think, Oh, I don’t wanna, you know, go to therapy, I know I probably should, or I probably have a lot going on. Maybe you can help them work through that stigma. You know, there’s so many things that I don’t know why God allows them, but I have learned to say, okay, God, I want you to be glorified in the midst of this difficult situation.
I know this is a short episode and I gave you four different ways to pray about your OCD besides take it away. Certainly this is not an exhaustive list. There are so many things that you could potentially pray to God about. regarding your OCD. So I’m curious, what else would you add to this list? Find us on the website.
We’ll put a link in the show notes. You can let us know maybe some ways that you’ve prayed about your OCD that you feel have enriched your prayer life or your connection with God. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you. Were you blessed by today’s episode? If so, I’d really appreciate it if you would go over to your iTunes account or Apple Podcasts app on your computer if you’re an Android person and leave us a review.
This really helps other Christians who are struggling with OCD be able to find our show. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.
Carrie explores how OCD can interfere with your prayer life and offers effective strategies to manage it. She addresses the challenge of repetitive praying and offers practical advice for dealing with OCD’s demands.
Learn how to stay connected with God and maintain a meaningful spiritual practice despite these challenges.
Episode Highlights:
How OCD can mess with your prayer life and what to do about it.
How to use scripture in your prayers for more focus and clarity.
Why it’s crucial to resist the urge to repeat prayers due to OCD’s demands
Strategies to overcome obsessive praying.
Episode Summary:
In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD, I share three strategies to help stop obsessive praying, a common struggle for many dealing with OCD. If you find yourself repeating prayers because they don’t feel sincere enough or confessing the same sins repeatedly throughout the day, this episode is for you.
First, I encourage you to try something new in your prayer life. It’s easy to fall into a rut, especially when OCD dictates that there’s only one “right” way to pray. I recommend exploring different prayer methods, like centering prayer or breath prayers, to break free from obsessive patterns. Remember, prayer is about connecting with God and aligning your will with His, not about achieving perfection.
Second, I suggest having a dedicated time for confession. By setting aside intentional moments once or twice a day for confession, you can avoid the cycle of confessing sins repeatedly throughout the day. Trust the Holy Spirit to guide you in this process.
Finally, I talk about resisting the urge to repeat prayers. OCD often convinces us that our prayers weren’t good enough the first time, leading us to repeat them. But God hears us the first time, even when our prayers aren’t perfect. It’s important to remember that OCD-driven anxiety and guilt are false alarms, and you don’t need to give in to them.
I also touch on the benefits of ICBT (Inference-based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) in managing mental compulsions, which we’ll explore more in our upcoming Freedom from Mental Compulsions Challenge. If OCD is impacting your prayer life, consider joining us for the challenge to learn practical tools for breaking free from these patterns.
Thank you for tuning in, and if you found this episode helpful, please consider leaving a review on iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Your support helps other Christians struggling with OCD discover the show. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Hello and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ follower. wife and mother, licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.
We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.
I know some of you have been hearing about this for the last few weeks, but you are down to the wire on the last few days to sign up for the Freedom from Mental Compulsions Challenge. You can sign up at hopeforanxietyandocd. com/challenge. We are going to do some fun giveaways. We’ll give you some coffee gift cards. There’s going to be free coaching with Carrie given away. I’m so excited to be talking with you about ICBT and how that can really help. The way I explained this to someone the other day is if you’re dealing with a physical compulsion, like I’ve got to go check that doorknob lock, from me to my doorknob or my door lock, that might be five to ten seconds, depending on where I am, and I might have some time to think about not going back and checking that, but if you’re struggling with mental compulsions, your brain is always right there, and it’s an easy, quick go to.
ICBT will literally help you train your brain to think differently and to recognize these obsessions as an invalid argument. At the time of this recording, we’ve already got several people signed up, so please come join them: hopeforanxietyandocd.com /challenge.
Today I want to talk with you about three strategies to help stop obsessive praying. Some of you are going through and repeating prayers over and over again because the first time you pray it, something just doesn’t quite feel right, or maybe you’re repeating the prayer because you didn’t feel like you were sincere the first time. Maybe you’re finding that you’re confessing over and over again throughout the day.
We’re going to talk about each one of those things today. The first strategy I have for you is to try something new in your prayer life. This is just good advice for all of us as Christians. Get into a rut of speaking with God the same way all the time. And it’s not bad to follow certain prescriptive prayer methods.
I don’t know if you’ve heard of Acts, which is adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication, kind of helping you process instead of just going to God and asking for something, using some of these others, making sure that you’re praising him and thanking him, confessing your sins, all of that. Those types of strategies are good.
If we’re going get out of a rut in our prayer life, be willing to try something new, and this is going to be uncomfortable especially if OCD is telling you, you have to pray this certain way, or no, you didn’t do it right, or it wasn’t good enough or sincere enough. I want to refer you to a couple of previous episodes that we’ve had on prayer. In episode 48, I talked with Rich Lewis on this practice of centering prayer, just really more of a meditative type of prayer, where you’re sitting in silence, you’re focusing in your mind just more on an image, maybe of Jesus, or the focus is more on spending time in God’s presence, allowing God to utilize that time to fill you and bring you at peace in his presence. This is very different than many of us pray. So, I encourage you that if you’ve never done that before, maybe try that. Maybe try sitting in silence and listening. Maybe just taking some time to slow down. There are many different ways to pray, so don’t allow OCD to get you stuck or pigeonholed into just one way of praying.
In episode 75, we talked with Jennifer Tucker about breath prayers. This is where you have certain words that you would say like on the inhale, and they’re based on scripture. For example, you could inhale, “The Lord is my shepherd, and exhale, I shall not want, or you could exhale. I have all that I need.” You can inhale, “The Lord is my refuge and strength.” Exhale, “an ever-present help in times of trouble.” With anything, this in itself could become compulsive as well. You just have to play around with some different things. If you are really sitting and trying this out, I know some people have obsessions about breathing, so that may throw you off. It’s just an opportunity or an invitation to calm your mind and your body while you’re breathing and also speaking out scriptures. Jennifer talked about how breath prayers really helped her get through a difficult time where a lot was happening with her daughter and she just didn’t have a lot of words at that point.
When you’re so overwhelmed or stressed, sometimes, less is more, and really focusing on what is the purpose of our prayer. The purpose of our prayer is to connect with God and to align our will with His. We’re not trying to make something dramatic happen. We’re not trying to change God’s mind or bend His hand.
We are just saying, “Okay, I am here.” I am intentionally focusing myself on connecting with the presence of God because God is the source of everything. That’s it. God has everything that I could ever need in this life, physically, emotionally, spiritually. I want to be abiding in the vine and receiving that nourishment.
That’s what our prayer time is about. It’s about connecting with God and surrendering. It’s not about me. It’s not about what I want today. It’s not about here’s my list of 50 things I want to happen. Yes, it’s totally fine to ask God for things. He wants us to come to him with our needs, with our joys, with our sorrows, with everything, but prayer is about at the end, God’s will be done. “These are the things that I’m laying before you, God, but ultimately I want you and I want your will and your desires to be above my desires.” As you pray and you align yourself with the will of God, then God gives you a heart for certain things that maybe you didn’t have a heart for before. All of a sudden, you start feeling passionate about certain areas or like, “Okay, I feel like God is leading me in this direction.” Maybe you feel like, “Oh, God is asking me to give something up so that I can focus on something else that’s more important. God’s giving me comfort that whatever situation is going to work out.” We can approach it different ways. It may be that you approach it as kind of like a checklist item. “Okay, this is one more thing. I know I really need to pray. It’s a spiritual discipline. I need to do it.”
Maybe you’re in a Christian tradition where you repeat certain prayers. I know in the Orthodox tradition, they have certain morning prayers or evening prayers. I know that in the Catholic tradition, they say certain prayers, and if that’s a part of your particular tradition, you still want those prayers to have meaning and significance and connect you back to God.
Another strategy you can try to shake up your prayer life a little bit if you’ve never done this before, is to pick specific scripture verses to pray. They may be scriptures from the Psalms, or they may be scriptures from the New Testament. So, for example, in James 1, 2, it says, “Consider it a great joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you experience various trials, because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance, and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature, incomplete, lacking, and nothing. “That’s actually James 1, You could even turn this into a prayer regarding your OCD, so you could say, “Dear God, please give me joy in this trial of OCD. Develop my endurance so that I may be more mature, complete, and lacking in nothing.” Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 say, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own understanding.”
In all your ways know him and he will make your path straight. This is a familiar scripture. So if we were to pray that scripture, we would say something similar to, God, I want to trust you. I want to really trust you with all of my heart. Help me to know when I am relying on my own understanding instead of trusting you.
Allow me to know you at a deeper level so that I can follow your path. I know when I do that, that you promise to make my path straight. So there we have a New Testament and Old Testament example of praying the scriptures. Let’s face it, there are going to be times where you’re in a low point, you may feel really overwhelmed, you’re lost, and you just don’t even know what to pray or maybe your mind just feels so full, you may feel down, depressed, lonely, whatever it is. I can think of a couple of different times in my life where that definitely fit my circumstances. One was when I went through my divorce in 2015. That was a really low, depressing point for me. And another one was when I lost my parents, but I remember reading this, another verse in James.
One, where it talks about, the scripture basically says that every good and perfect gift comes from God. So when I realized that, it caused me to shift into this attitude of gratefulness and I just started thanking God for everything that I did have in my life because the loss felt so big. and so overwhelming that at the time was overshadowing the good things that were in my life.
So I intentionally focused my prayer life on gratefulness. Let me just make a very specific list of everything to God that I’m grateful for. I was driving in my car going down the road just saying, okay, God, thank you for this car. It’s old, but it runs well. It gives me where I need to go. I’m able to go to work and back.
I’m able to go to the store and get food. Yes, I’m so thankful I have food on my table. I’m thankful that I have a place to live where I feel safe and comfortable. Just things that we take for granted that not everybody has. If you start thanking God and being in a place of gratitude, that will absolutely shift your mood.
I don’t know how it could not. Gratitude is so good for your mind and emotions and obviously your spirit. Maybe you take some time in your prayer life to really sit and praise God for his character. Praising Him for His holiness, His righteousness, His faithfulness, enduring love, God is incredibly patient.
These are just a few of God’s attributes, but when you start to go through those and praising God, and thinking about his true character, that shifts our mindset to realize how big and how vast and how incredible God is. And if you realize, like, how big and vast and incredible God is, yet at the same time, So profound he wants to have a relationship with us.
This is absolutely mind-blowing when we break it down I know these are things we hear in church, but we don’t really sit and marinate them The God of the universe is holy set apart yet loves you and wants a relationship with you incredible When we realize how big God is, we realize how small our problems really are.
There is no problem that God can’t solve. God is in the business of doing God-sized things. that humans cannot explain or take credit for. I don’t know if you’ve ever been in that situation in your life where you’re like, okay, how am I going to make it through this month? How am I going to pay this medical bill? How am I going to get to work? I got laid off. How am I going to get a job? And then somehow God just shows up because he’s that good. I did not mean to get into all this today, but somebody needed to hear that.
We’re talking about three strategies to help stop obsessive praying. So our first one, we only got through number one. Try something new. Two is have a dedicated time of the day for confession. This is a ditch that you really might be falling into because I see it time and time again. You’re going through your day, you feel really bad about something, you confess it, but then you’re starting to question, Did I sin? Did I not sin? What happened? And then you’re confessing again. Confessing for stuff you’ve already confessed that happened five years ago. It can really cause that obsessive cycle loop to be going on. Let’s not do that. Be intentional one to two times a day, okay? Maybe in the morning, maybe at night, if you’re not fully awake in the morning, do it at lunch, but a couple of times a day where you sit down and you say, okay, Lord, let me think through and be intentional about the things that I’m confessing. And here’s the deal, if you can’t remember it, or the Holy Spirit doesn’t prompt you to remember it, to confess it, wasn’t a sin, we’re not worrying about it, moving on.
We have to trust the conviction of the Holy Spirit as Christians. The Holy Spirit is not going to let you go way off track. The problem is if we start to ignore him. Most of you who are listening to this episode and are trying to be conscientious about confessing, I don’t imagine that you are stiff-arming the Holy Spirit.
I’ve had clients who have practiced this dedicated confession time and they have told me that it really cuts down on getting stuck in that confessional loop spiral where you’re feeling questioning sin and feeling like you’re having to confess all day long. And the third strategy is I know it’s going to be hard for some of you.
Resist that urge to repeat that prayer because here’s the story that OCD is going to spin you. It’s going to tell you that your prayer wasn’t sincere enough. Were you even thinking about what you were saying? You need to go back and do that again. Just to make sure. And then OCD might start attacking your character and your relationship with God and all this other extra.
You have to remember that OCD brings up these real intense feelings of anxiety that are going to lead you to believe, or it could be a feeling of guilt, or may just feel like something just doesn’t feel quite right. And in those moments, you can’t trust those feelings because they are a false alarm of your threat detection system.
So when OCD is encouraging you to repeat that prayer, you don’t need to. God heard it the first time. My daughter is only two years old, so she doesn’t have a full vocabulary, but she’s starting to speak more and more in sentences, which is really cool because When she was younger, you just had to guess at what she wanted or what she needed.
It’s kind of hit or miss, but the cool thing is I do want her to talk to me. I don’t always understand what she says. She blurs things together because she’s still learning. But I want to hear from her. I want her to speak to me. God wants to hear from his children, too. And quite frankly, we don’t always get it right.
Sometimes we ask for some dumb stuff. My daughter might ask me for cookies right before dinner. I’m gonna be like, no, you can’t have that. I look back at things that I thought I wanted. I’m glad God didn’t answer those prayers, okay? But he heard everyone and he cared about me enough as a good father to give me what I needed, not always what I wanted.
So if you’re having perfectionism issues with your prayer life, Know that it doesn’t have to be perfect. God wants to hear from you. Communicate with him. If you find OCD is really messing with your prayer life, please join us at the Freedom from Mental Compulsions Challenge. You only have a few more days to sign up.
It is on August the 5th at noon Central Time. We’re going to be talking about how ICBT can help with mental compulsions. I’m going to be teaching through the 12 modules of ICBT very soon and would love to see you there. I want to share with you one of our iTunes reviews. This is by Marnie. I cannot thank you enough for this podcast and how much it is truly helping me.
I’ve been listening to as many episodes as possible since I found it last week. I’m beginning a new counseling journey where I now feel so much hope to be vulnerable and heal from shame due to lifelong anxiety and OCD. I feel a sense of relief and grace, encouraged and so hopeful. I truly cannot tell you enough what listening to these episodes has done for me already.
I will be forever grateful. Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Marnie. I received two emails this week from individuals in Canada as well. So hello to our Canadian listeners. We’re so glad that you’re here. And until we get our new website built, don’t get me started. Breathe. Patience. We are still at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Were you blessed by today’s episode? If so, I’d really appreciate it if you would go over to your iTunes account or Apple Podcasts App on your computer if you’re an Android person and leave us a review. This really helps other Christians who are struggling with OCD be able to find our show.
Christian Faith in OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.
In this week’s episode, Carrie brings back her favorite co-host, her husband Steve to discuss the difference between sexual obsession and lust in the context of scrupulosity, offering practical, faith-based strategies for managing these thoughts.
The distinction between sexual obsession and lust within the context of OCD and scrupulosity.
The different ways men and women process visual stimuli and attraction.
Practical strategies for men to avoid falling into patterns of lust.
The importance of recognizing and addressing unrealistic expectations regarding sin and temptation in the journey of sanctification.
How to differentiate between genuine conviction from the Holy Spirit and compulsive confession driven by OCD.
Episode 133, I am bringing back my favorite co-host, my husband, Steve, because we are talking about an important topic that affects a lot of men and not that it doesn’t affect women, but we wanted him here for the male perspective. So I appreciate him being willing to do this episode with me We’re talking about is it sexual obsession or lust and your scrupulosity wants to know
Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ-follower wife mother, and Licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.
We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.
If you haven’t heard, we are running a freedom from mental compulsions challenge on August the 5th at noon central time. You can sign up at www. hopeforanxietyandocd.com/challenge. We’re going to be giving away some cool stuff like free coaching with Carrie, and maybe some coffee gift cards thrown in there. You’re not going to want to miss it, so I will see you there.
Carrie: Steve, welcome back.
Steve: Thank you. It’s good to be back.
Carrie: You and I talked a while ago. This episode was really born out of a conversation where I started working with more men dealing with OCD and I came to you and I said one day. Please explain to me this struggle, this battle that men have with lust, just in general. That just really led into a really great conversation. I wish I had a recorder right there and we could have recorded it. But do you remember anything that you said just about how difficult it is like in society for men dealing with lust?
Steve: Word for word, no, I don’t remember. But I do remember the conversation. I agree, men definitely struggle more so with that, it seems because they are visual thinkers. Trying to remember more of the words that we had said, and I just don’t.
Carrie: When I actually came to you and I said, I need you to explain the struggle to me, you said, you’re not gonna get it, was actually the first thing that you said. I just thought that that was really profound. Just talking about how men and women’s brains work differently. Women can see an attractive guy and it’s like, “Oh, he’s cute” or “he’s hot,” and move on versus we’re not necessarily just going to jump into fantasizing about sleeping with somebody or going down that route.
Steve: I can’t say this because I’m not a woman, but I think women tend to think more so on that’s somebody I could have a future with or think a lot of women probably when they look at a man, they might not even be thinking for themselves and maybe simply thinking.
I bet he’d make somebody a good spouse. I bet I got a girlfriend that would just be a good guy for her. I bet. And this woman is probably only seeing this guy shopping in Publix or something hasn’t even spoken to him, he could be terrible, but just by looking at him, he looks nice, he’s probably a nice guy, right?
There’s an innocence there, whereas the guy, he doesn’t give a rip sometimes, I don’t think. Maybe some guys do. I shouldn’t speak for all, but he’s looking and thinking, she’s pretty. Then it goes to, if I were single, da da da da da, or, she’s, man, when I was younger I would, you know, whatever. And that’s never a good way to start a thought. You should just run right there and be done with it. I think that’s a big difference between men and women, not all.
Carrie: Right, and so you’re inundated with it all the time, like, in our culture. They say sex sells, it’s on commercials and billboards. And I had one client tell me that Instagram is basically soft porn. I know that you were trying to, like, follow volleyball at one point and had this.
Steve: That was a horrible idea. I was like, I can’t even see the ball going over the net cause they keep zooming in on who’s playing. so I just stopped. I deleted that. I didn’t want to look at it. I still have Instagram up, but I don’t use it. I mean, I should delete that, but just the same, it was awful.
Carrie: Yes and I know specifically that app, I’ve been told by other people, it targets younger men, like, even if they were just to get on there and depend on their age, it’s, it’s going to show them images that they’re going to want to look at and click on and things like that.
There’s kind of two different pathways in terms of a lot of the men that I’m working with. Some are actually addicted to pornography, and I’m very interested in that overlap between pornography addiction and OCD. I think there’s something to that, the way the brain works, and kind of just getting stuck on things.
That’s not necessarily what we’re talking about today as much. We might touch on it here and there. But those men are saying like, “Okay, I do have this struggle, but I’m working through it. I am Seeking godly accountability or I’m in some type of support group network that’s helping me work through the pornography addiction.”
A lot of times, it’s not something we’re working on directly together But they may talk about it what I really wanted to focus on today is that sometimes men with OCD are so concerned about whether or not they have lusted just by Looking at a woman That then they will go into doing mental compulsions, like, for example, they’re gonna immediately confess that as a sin, like, Oh, I don’t know if I lusted or not, so I better go ahead and just confess it anyway.
This can lead somebody down a loop. They may even just avoid interacting with other women in their life, or I can’t go to the grocery store because then I might see a woman and I might lust and things would be awful. Now it goes from that to OCD is now telling me that I’m going to leave my wife and it’s going to have these horrible consequences because I ran into a 20 something at Walmart, for example.
I wanted for you to give this male perspective on, I know it may be hard to know sometimes, but like, how do you know if “Hey, I just saw someone. She looked attractive. She had nice curves versus it’s going down like that last path.” What do you do?
Steve: Well, and I’ve told you this before. I heard a long time ago that the first look is there’s a person in front of me. It happens to be a woman. She has long hair, whatever. What’s a descriptive look? That’s it. It’s when you keep looking. That’s the problem. When it grows, when you begin to think more intimately of what could or couldn’t happen, and it could start probably innocently, like, Oh man, I bet she’d be fun on a date.
Then it goes from there, and that, I mean, that’s not the worst thing you could think of, but boy, it can really get you down the wrong path, I bet. I think it’s easy to get trapped one way or the other. I don’t know the OCD side so much, but I know on the pornography side, or the thinking lustful thoughts, it would be so easy just to keep going down that rabbit trail.
It just keeps growing. I think God gives you an out all the time, like the little voice, like, “Hey, stop it,” or the phone rings or something. But we don’t stop it. We keep going.
Carrie: I guess your recommendation would be for guys to like look away then. Like if you really think that you’re starting to get into that.
Steve: Stop looking at your Instagram account if that’s the problem. You’re going to make up every excuse to stop, I bet. Just do it. For us. For a lot of the guys that I know, we’ve gotten accountability partners. Whether we had the problem or not, one guy told me, he said, Steve, we’re men. That’s just the way our brains work. We get to stop it. Now, I don’t want to say that because if God made us in the perfect image, I really don’t think he made us, our first words be “Ooh la la.” But, not to be funny, but to be funny, to make the point. I think that you have to be careful. And so, holding one another accountable, I mean, it’s not easy.
Carrie: But what you’re saying is like, lust basically takes a second glance that may not take long, but it does take a little bit of time. So if you’re finding yourself avoiding everybody or just feeling like you’re having a hard time functioning, even Interacting with maybe other women at work or interacting with women at church because you’re afraid like, oh, I might lust after that person.
What happens is a lot of times the fear that we fear we then create, right? So then you’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, am I thinking about it? Oh, maybe I am. Well, you know, well, I can’t do that. That’s bad.” And it just creates this mental spiral and you get sucked further down into that OCD. So being able to really recognize what’s actually happening in the present is what we try to teach people.
I also think at the same time, too, that if this is a common struggle, it’s unreasonable to think that you’re just never gonna struggle with it ever again, like, especially if this has been an issue in your past, like, say, there’s a guy that’s come out of pornography addiction or come out of sexual addiction to think that person is never going to lust again seems unrealistic. Sometimes people with OCD will set themselves up with unrealistic expectations. We have to be able to, just like any other sin, we have to be able to deal with that in our life in a healthy way.
Steve: Yes. I think it’s on the addiction end of it. It’s like anything else. You don’t set yourself up to fall back into that. Could it happen? Yes. absolutely. But when you’re not setting yourself up. When you are like, “Oh, I’m going to look at this webcam today. It’s got girls on the beach playing volleyball,” but, you know, to go back to the volleyball thing, but, “Eh, it’s no big deal.” Then before you know it, you’re right back into it, I bet. So, I think you have to really, like, “I don’t need to do that.”
I’m not trying to be guilty here of anything, but, I think I’m going to avoid that today. On the OCD side, I don’t understand that as well as you do, obviously, but I really feel bad for somebody who has that fear. All he’s doing is not wanting to lust, the thing he’s not doing to begin with.
Carrie: Right.
Steve: But the fear of it is telling him otherwise, I suppose. I feel bad for that person. That’s tough.
Carrie: If you have lusted, if you have gone too far, making sure that you’re getting right with God is important. Making sure that you’re confessing your sins and restoring that relationship with God.
I think sometimes we perceive God, get so frustrated with us because We confess some of the same things, maybe that we have the same struggles over and over, but that is how we are becoming more and more like Christ is going through that sanctification process. We have to take that seriously. And at the same time, not feel like, Oh, I just keep running myself into the ground and keep making the same mistakes. You’re still loved even if you’re struggling.
Steve: Yes. This is a little different, but on the forgiving note, I am studying right now in the Bible where Jesus tells Peter, “You’re going to deny me.” He just calls him out flat out. “You’re going to deny me not once, not twice, but three times before the rooster crows.” I guess in the AM hours. Sure enough, he does. And yet, God took that. Peter realized, “Boy, I really messed up”. He felt shame. He didn’t feel worthy. I think of us with our sins. We don’t feel worthy. I can’t break this. I said I wouldn’t do it, and I did it just like Peter did. God uses him. He starts out those churches. Amazing. He is a great encourager to others. So, I think God can flip that script for you, just like he did for Peter.
Carrie: Right.
Steve: You’ve got to make the change.
Carrie: Absolutely, and I would encourage people that if you have been through something similarly like this, that if God gives you an opportunity to share your testimony, to encourage others, maybe who are having similar struggles, to do that.
It’s hard for us to admit things that have happened in our past or things that we’ve done, but God can really use those in a powerful way to impact other people. I would encourage people to think through what type of person OCD is telling them they’re going to become if they don’t obsess about not lusting because we know that OCD attacks people’s character.
Sometimes someone may believe, “Oh, I’m a perverted person because I’m struggling with this. Oh, I’m just disgusting.” Like I said before, there may be this imagined scenario. I’m going to run into some lady at the coffee shop and then run off with her and leave my wife and my kids and just ruin my entire life. It just doesn’t work. It becomes this whole rumination spiral that involves a lot of confessing, maybe reassurance seeking, confessing to your spouse, maybe, “Oh, I lusted after someone today,” and that can then cause some relationship rift.
In ICBT, we’d really encourage people to look at like, what is, we call the feared self. What is that feared self that you’re trying to run from? There are definitely ways to address that and get back to who you really are, the real self, which as Christians, is the amazing integration of like, we know who we are. The Lord tells us who we are. We’re called, we’re chosen, we’re loved, we are forgiven, we are free in Christ.
Just so many great promises and so many identity verses really in the Bible. I don’t know if we were to tease all of those out. And that’s how OCD sometimes gets people roped in or stuck into doing the same things over and over again.
What would you say to somebody who really struggles to see themselves as Christ sees them?
Steve: I would say, talk to people. Talk to someone who is a Good mentor for you, or just a friend who’s going to be honest with you though and truthful. And I think that you’ll find if they’re steering you in the right direction and giving you good godly advice, you’re going to find out that God does have something great for you.
They’re going to name your great qualities that you do have. Now God’s already maybe used you. You may not even realize it, but that he will continue to. And that honestly. You can’t do anything on your own. You need the strength of others. You need the strength of God.
Carrie: Yes, that’s good. If we’re questioning whether or not we have sinned, then certainly like we have verses in the Bible and the Psalms that talk about, you know, inviting God to search our hearts. Search me and know me, see if there be any wicked way and lead me into the way of everlasting. we really can rest and trust the conviction of the Holy Spirit as a Christian. The conviction is actually a really good thing because it means that we’re connected with God and that God is revealing to us things that we need to bring to him, that we need to give our best.
If we’re over-confessing things, it’s almost like saying I’m sorry to someone too many times. You have people who walk around and they’re like, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry,” and after a little while, you don’t know what they’re apologizing for. You have no idea what they’re apologizing for. It’s almost like they’re apologizing for existing.
I would encourage you if you’re confessing all the time, you find it like it’s a compulsion that you’re engaging in all the time, to be intentional about pausing once or twice a day, maybe in the morning, at night, and be intentional about your confessional time with God, that’ll get you out of that constant confession.
If you find yourself urging the urge to confess something to maybe shift that prayer into a thankfulness prayer or down a different route so that you can get out of that. And like we said before, too, if it is less than you’re struggling with, if it’s pornography, if you are fantasizing about somebody that you’re not married to, or you’re watching videos you shouldn’t be, you’re on, your Instagram is just full of soft porn, then you need some godly male accountability in your life. There’s Celebrate Recovery, there are other things that you can do to get the help that you need.
Steve: I think too, you were talking about your prayer life, praying to God and you’re saying you’re sorry and It doesn’t seem like the sincerity is there even, or like it’s more fear than realistic. I think there’s definitely something to be said about just sit in peace. Just sit in his presence, don’t say another word. Just sit in peace. See how long you can do that. And I’m not saying meditate solely. I mean meditate on his word. That’s great. That’s good. Just sit in peace. And then when you’re done When time’s up, if you’ve sat there for 5, 10, 20 minutes, whatever it is, what has he told you? What’s the clear thing in your mind? And there’s probably a good answer for you, a good direction, a good conversation with God in a sense, but we don’t listen enough. I mean, we come up and just, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Our daughter, for instance, does that all the time. She comes up to me. “I’m sorry, Daddy. I’m sorry, Daddy.” “What have you done? You haven’t done anything. You’re okay. You just think you’ve made me upset. I’m not upset with you.” I think God’s the same way with us. You need to just sit and listen and think about what you’re saying. Think about the problem. Think it through.
Carrie: Yes.
Steve: But that’s hard.
Carrie: We have the front porch life now. We have a small front porch with two rocking chairs on it. Love it. Two wicker rocking chairs that you worked really hard to put together. I think about something like that, like you and I could sit out on the front porch, for example, and we might not say anything to each other for a while.
You just relax and kind of sit there and we don’t always need words all the time. So these are contemplative forms of prayer. We’re going to talk about some of that in a future episode, and I think that that will be awesome. So stay tuned in for that one. If you struggle with obsessive praying.
Steve: That’s good. Those are my favorite times, or at the end of the day, or any time that I can sit on the rocker. I’m such an old man now, and I own it. I own it, and all the neighbors that we’ve met know, I like to sit in my rocker and just sit in a nice, peaceful sway, listen to the birds, and rock. That is my life. And I love it. It’s just, it makes me feel good.
Carrie: Thank you for coming on and sharing your male wisdom. I can always count on you to hop in and be a co-host when needed.
Steve: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. As always, I’ve enjoyed it.
Carrie: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Were you blessed by today’s episode? If so, I’d really appreciate it if you would go over to your iTunes account or Apple Podcasts app on your computer if you’re an Android person and leave us a review. This really helps other Christians who are struggling with OCD be able to find our show. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling.
Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.
On today’s episode, I want to take a moment to open up and share my personal journey of grief and loss over the past year. It’s been a challenging road, but I find purpose in sharing my story with all of you, knowing that it might help someone going through similar challenges.
Episode Highlights:
The profound impact of losing both parents and navigating the complex emotions that arise from such a significant loss.
The importance of allowing yourself to grieve and acknowledging the unique challenges that come with losing both parents.
Honoring your loved ones’ memories and finding ways to keep their legacy alive in your own life.
The transformative power of surrendering to God’s plan and finding peace amidst adversity.
Episode Summary:
Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 99. I’m Carrie Bock, and today I’m sharing a very personal story that’s been unfolding over the past year—a journey through grief and loss. As hard as it’s been, I believe there’s value in sharing these moments because grief touches us all in different ways.
My journey through grief began in March 2022 with the birth of our daughter, Faith. Just a few weeks after, my mom came to visit, and we discovered that she was battling pancreatic cancer. At first, we thought it might be pancreatitis, but the diagnosis quickly turned to something more serious. We were hopeful she could undergo surgery, but unfortunately, the cancer had already spread too fast. It was an overwhelming and crushing realization, coming at a time when I was still recovering from childbirth, processing the emotional and physical toll of bringing new life into the world while confronting the reality of losing someone so dear to me.
As I reflect on this past year, I’ve come to see how deeply intertwined joy and sorrow can be. While there have been moments of profound pain, there have also been moments of grace. God has met me in unexpected ways, showing me that even in the midst of heartache, there’s room for healing and growth. I know many of you are walking through your own journeys of grief, and my prayer is that through today’s episode, you’ll find comfort in knowing that you’re not alone and that God’s presence can sustain us through even the toughest of times.
Welcome to Christian Faith and OCOD, episode 99. I am your host, Carrie Bock. If you’ve been following along with our podcast, then you know that I’ve experienced some pretty significant grief and loss over the last year. And even though it’s a hard thing for me to talk about, I wanted to share because I feel like since having this podcast, I’ve been through a lot and every time I go through something and learn something new, I definitely want to put that out in the world and share it with you.
I don’t want to just suffer in vain. If this can help someone else who is going through grief and loss, I really want to share that with them. All of us are going to experience grief and loss at some point or another. It’s just a part of our lives now. And it doesn’t matter how young you are, how old you are, how rich or poor, whether you live in America or in Australia.
At some point, you’re going to go through grief and loss. Whether that’s the loss of a person that’s close to you, the loss of a job, divorce, a move that was stressful, involves loss of relationships, there’s definitely something that we can all learn from each other as part of this process in the joint collective human experience.
I wanted to start by going over, just the bird’s eye view of what’s happened since Faith was born, our daughter. In March, 2022, Faith was born and my mom flew up a few weeks after my in-laws were here right after she was born. And mom was having some problems with her stomach. She was saying, “You know, I’m not eating certain things.”
She had been treated for pancreatitis. The doctors didn’t have answers as to why she was continuing to struggle with her stomach issues. Just a couple of months later, Memorial Day in May, Mom got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. She had to wait to have all these scans and different things. I guess several doctors had to be involved in the ultrasound process to look at the mass on our pancreas, and Steve and I had gone away at that point for the weekend.
We just wanted a little mini vacation before I got back to work. I had been on maternity leave for 12 weeks. Things were just a little bit different in our life. We had support system that felt a little bit shaky, somewhat isolated from staying home with the baby for the first few months, but then also we were trying to get connected with another church.
We ended up making a difficult decision towards the end of 21 to leave the church that we had been going to, and so we were in the process of trying to get in a small group or some type of Sunday school or ministry at the new church in mid-July of 22. On my birthday, we flew down to see my mom.
At this point, I knew things weren’t great with my mom. They had told her that she could have surgery to have the cancer removed and only about 25% of people with pancreatic cancer can actually go through the surgery. I think it has to do with a certain blood vessel in that area, and once that gets wrapped around surgery is too dangerous.
We had this surgery that my mom was supposed to be able to have or that we were hopeful that she would be able to have and then have a longer life. It turns out that the cancer spread too quickly, and so she had to go back into the hospital. They were not able to do the original surgery to remove the cancer, but of course, she was having other problems and they were trying to work with different tubes to get things straightened out so that she could function.
I remember telling my mom that I didn’t want to wait until she was on her deathbed to come out and see her and let her know how much I loved her, Steve Faith, and I ended up getting a one-way flight to Florida and we stayed down there for three weeks while I was working online, trying to rebuild a practice after coming back for maternity leave.
In a summer, in which no one wanted to be online because everyone had Zoom fatigue from COVID, they would have rather run off and gone on vacations understandable than see a therapist. That was tough. I really just made sure that everyone else was taken care of except for me. I would go visit Mom in the hospital. I would pick up dinner for Dad or make dinner. Sometimes I was seeing clients. I was making sure that my husband and my daughter were okay. During that visit, we kept hoping that my mom was going to be able to get out of the hospital where she would be able to spend more time with my daughter. And unfortunately, mom was only out of the hospital for a couple of days and then things happened with her feeding tube.
She had to go right back in. It was unfortunate that we didn’t get more. Time with her outside of the hospital, but we decided to celebrate all the summer birthdays in our family, which is myself, my brother and my dad all have birthdays in the summer. And then towards the beginning of September after we had gotten back, my husband was having a little bit of some mild balance issues, more when it was dark or couldn’t see very well, or the lighting was bad, but most of the time he was getting around pretty well. When last year, in July and towards the beginning of September, the day Faith turned six months old, Steve had an appointment with the specialty neurologist. He was diagnosed with SCA or Spino Cerebellar Ataxia and that was like a big hit as we are dealing with my mom dying and a few weeks later my mom dies on the evening of September 22nd.
My mom really suffered a lot with this cancer and that was so hard to see my mom go through that. She was always just a very devoted person to the Lord, to church ministry, and I really had a lot of spiritual wrestlings about moms suffering towards the end of her life. It just changed the way I have viewed a lot of things, which I’ll talk about a little bit later.
Losing Mom was really such a big hole because she was a person that I would talk to about everything. She was a go-to person. I talked to her every week and let her know kind of what was going on with my business efforts that I was trying to do.
She was my biggest fan for the podcast. Absolutely, just an incredible woman of God. I know that she struggled in her own faith journey towards the end just wondering, do I have enough faith for God to heal me? And of course we were praying so hard during this whole process of my mom being sick and having cancer and okay, praise God, she can have surgery. Like, “Oh no, she can’t.” Now what does this mean for our family? It was tough. It was really tough going through all that, but knowing also that because my mom had a relationship with the Lord that when she died, she would go to heaven and it was a hard piece kind of, there was a little bit of role-switching in a lot of ways towards the end with my mom because I felt like I had to be strong for her as she was going through everything and.
I’m dealing at the same time with this new diagnosis for Steve and I don’t really have the support of anyone to process that with or talk to them about it. And in this process, Steve, his balance was really declining and started using a cane. Got him in October, I think, into a vestibular therapy. It was just a tough time.
And in October, it was about a month after my mom died that we had her memorial. That timing was hard waiting a month because it felt like I was trying to work through things. But then also there was this lack of closure because we knew we had to go back to Florida and deal with the funeral and everything else and eally the silver lining of the whole situation was being able to have Faith there to spend so much time with my extended family and with my dad while she was in her first year of life. Obviously, we didn’t plan to go back and forth to Florida that many times in her first year, but it was just a good time with my immediate family. But my dad’s extended family, most of them are in Florida as well, and both my parents came from pretty big families.
It is nice to have the support of aunts and uncles and others. Since we had already planned to come down for Thanksgiving and I think had already booked flights or made arrangements to come down, we went ahead and came down for Thanksgiving. That was ended up being about a month later, and I didn’t know that at the time. That would be the last time that I’d seen my dad in person. He was struggling, of course, as we all were with like the first holiday without mom, and he told me that he. I was gonna really miss this cake that she used to make.
It’s a family recipe that we always make around Thanksgiving and Christmas. It’s horrible for you. It’s mostly Crisco and eggs and flour. But anyway, we made this cake. I told Dad I would make the cake for him, and I’m not lying. That is a hard cake to make and not get dry. It was like the best one I’ve made probably ever, which was just really cool, so everyone appreciated it, and of course, it was all eaten. I didn’t last on the dessert table very long, but that was a good time and just a good memories with my family.
We spent Christmas with Steve’s family and it was super cold in Tennessee and March. We had Faith’s first birthday. My dad had been telling me, “Okay, when Faith turns one, I want an updated picture of her, like an eight by 10.” I was like, “Okay, well you’re gonna have to tell me like which picture you want of her?” And he said, “Well, no, she has to turn one first.” So I was like, “Okay, dad.” And we ended up having a video call with my dad, aunt, brothers, and nephews, and my dad got to see Faith walk on the video call, and then Dad died.
A week later, after Faith’s birthday, we were back down in Florida about a week later for the funeral. We decided not to have so much time in between and where it was gonna be close to Easter. So we didn’t want to interfere with Easter plans and those things. My dad wasn’t in the best of health, whereas my mom had been in really good health, so when she got cancer, it was a huge shock because she’d always taken such good care of herself, was into vitamins and eating vegetables, all those things. She didn’t drink soda. She didn’t drink a lot of coffee. She just lived a pretty healthy lifestyle. She was walking on a regular basis. When mom got sick and died before dad, it was a shock for all of us as a family because dad hadn’t been in the best health for years, and my dad had a stroke several years ago and he’s had trouble with his blood pressure and weight.
He had been overweight for probably the majority of his adult life. I had always thought for the last few years when I would visit my dad or he would come to Tennessee, I would have thoughts like, what if this is the last time I see my dad? And wanted to let him know obviously that I loved him and he was one of these people that he never thought about, like his own mortality.
He was just kind of, I think, expected to live forever. He wasn’t, didn’t seem to be really worried about those things, but when Dad died, even though I knew he wasn’t in good health, I didn’t really understand the weight that I would feel over no longer having parents at all. It just felt like I was in this child orphan situation.
I kept saying I feel lost and used the word weird more than once to describe the feeling. There’s just no other feeling like that when you lose both of your parents, especially in such a short time period. My head was super, super cloudy. Right after that, I had to write everything down for my reminders. I know I wasn’t functioning at max capacity.
I wanted to tell you a few of the things that I did during my grief process that I felt were helpful for me. One was I showed up in my relationship with God even if I didn’t have the words, or I couldn’t even think to pray. And I can’t explain to you what happens in those moments spiritually, but I know that the Bible says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. And that brought me a sense of comfort because I really didn’t know what to say and couldn’t think straight.
When mom got sick, I made the decision to go back on antidepressants because I knew that I had to function and when I was crying for like an hour straight, it just wasn’t functional at all. And I just made that decision that I was gonna be on them at least the first year after mom died to get through all the first pieces, first holidays and things like that. I made the decision to go to bed at the same time every night. You wouldn’t think that’s like a major life change, but it really has changed my life. Steve jokes with me about it. He is like, “Hey, it’s five minutes till your bedtime.” I used to be one of those people who were like, one more thing before I went to bed, and It didn’t work out for me well because it was usually my one more thing somehow engaged my mind and required some mental activities. So it was a little too stimulating before I needed to go to sleep. So now my nighttime routine is much more mellow and I found that by going to bed around the same time every night or by a certain time, has helped me to get more restful sleep and helped me to feel better and more refreshed in the morning.
I haven’t had problems falling asleep since I started doing that. And as many of you know, from a prior episode, I cut back where I could on work to take care of myself and reduce mental energy. It meant saying no to some clients that wanted to work through grief and loss issues. It meant saying no to all clients for a short time period.
I struggled with this because I had some type of imaginary deadline for this course that I wanted to put out for Christians with OCD, and I just emailed everyone on the list and put the whole thing on hold. If you’re not a part of our email list, you can join by going to hopeforeanxietyandocd/free, if you want the OCD resource. It was tough to have to slow down because I enjoy living at a little bit faster pace and I’m naturally like a goal setter and I have things that I want to accomplish and things that I look forward to around the corner. But, That wasn’t where I was at at the time.
I had a severe lack of motivation. I would tell my counselor, I would tell other people I get out of bed right now because I have to because I have a daughter and a husband who need me and need my help. Other than that, if it wasn’t for them, I probably would have spent a lot more time in the bed just moping around and being sad and a lot less functional, but because I essentially had to put one foot in front of the other and do the basics, I just really focused on the basics of making sure that we were eating, sleeping, and the house was relatively clean, somewhat.
I learned in this grief process to engage and enlist my support system, and it’s so humbling to ask for help, and I realized I wasn’t gonna make it through without the support of others. I asked for more help on our last trip to Florida than I had on any of the others. If you want to help someone going through grief and loss, what can you do?
Make them food or bring them food because the last thing you want to spend mental energy on at that moment is what is for dinner. It’s almost like your brain is just constantly trying to multitask, working through the grief and loss process. It’s very taxing mentally, physically, emotionally.
You can mow someone’s lawn, you can watch their kid, and there are so many different little things that you can do. One of the sweetest things that someone did for us was give us a few groceries when we got back from Dad’s funeral since we’d been gone for a couple weeks and I was helping clean out my parents’ house at that point too. I didn’t have the perishable food, the basics, bread, milk, eggs. They bought us just a few things and it was simple, yet incredibly thoughtful. So just know that even if you can’t relate to what someone’s going through, or you’re not sure how to respond, those little acts of kindness and love will really stick out to them.
There’s been so much that happened in the last 15 months as I wrote all this down. I was just overwhelmed, That was a lot to go through, and I’ve learned a lot, not just about some healthy things I could do for myself, but some things about grief. Some I knew from the experience of going through my divorce, but to be honest, I had forgotten how tough the grief process is.
Grief is exhausting. It takes time. There are no shortcuts. I went back and started reading the book, “Life After Loss” again, that I had read after my divorce. The author talks about how you can’t get over grief, you have to go through it. I highly recommend that book. It’s about losses of many different kinds. He talks about death, divorce, moving to a new city, starting over. I learned that in terms of family members, other people may be at a different phase of grief process than you are, and that can be really challenging. My dad never really accepted that my mom was dying, even up to the very end saying that he was shocked when she did die, and that she’d been very sick for some time. But I think that he was still holding onto a lot of hope that they would be able to do chemo and get rid of the cancer, and Mom just was never strong enough to do chemo. Her body just wasn’t in a place where it could handle that due to all the drains and different things she had going on. You may be in a stage of grief where you’re angry about the grief and loss and someone else is really sad.
You may be in a place of sadness and somebody else is in anger and it’s. Sometimes it’s hard to meet your other family members on that level. That definitely was something that came up for me. I had a lot of anger about my mom’s care, or somewhat lack of care that she experienced while she was in the hospital by her doctors.
I felt like they weren’t really honest with her about outcomes. You know, just were insensitive. There were some things that were said that were pretty insensitive, and I became very angry and frustrated in that process. I really just tried to advocate for her wherever I could. When I would go there, I was reminded that grief is hard when you know it’s coming, and it’s hard when you don’t.
One isn’t better than the other. They’re just different. With Mom, we knew she was dying. We got to have a lot of goodbye conversations. Just a lot of time spent in the hospital talking about her as a mom and even my parents were able to have conversations about, you know, being a spouse and all of that.
With Dad, we didn’t get to say goodbye. It was just suddenly he died of a heart attack in his sleep, basically. I’m glad that he didn’t suffer, even though we didn’t get those opportunities necessarily in the same way that we got them with Mom, when you have the sudden grief and loss, it’s shocking. It jolts you in a way and when you know it’s coming, you still don’t know when it’s coming, so you’re anticipating something.
I remember even telling some people, I didn’t tell them the whole story, but I was trying to kind of make plans and letting people know, “Hey, I may have to travel at a moment’s notice and I may not be able to fulfill that responsibility just without trying to tell them the whole story of what was going on with my mom. So definitely grief is hard either way. I realize that you could have a lot of different conflicting emotions and grief that mess you up like I was talking about before. One moment you might be intensely sad, and then another moment you might be super angry.
Another moment you might have some regret. I think that regret is probably the hardest emotion to have. I really try mostly to live my life without any regrets. I think that’s why I wanted to come down and see my mom when I did, and Steve was definitely a strong supporter and proponent of that. He was like, “Just do what you have to do to be with your family.”
Even though it was hard, I know on him and Faith just change of schedule and routine and location, that I’m glad that I did that in that situation and I’m glad that I saw my dad, you know, at Thanksgiving. I’m glad that we had that time to spend together and I’m thankful for that. In my own ways, I always tried to communicate to him how much I loved him and valued him as a parent. I had a much probably closer relationship with my mom than I did with my dad, even though I know he still loved me in his own way, but I just had different feelings about the situations and the deaths.
Definitely, there’s a lot of spiritual questioning that can come in these situations. Why did my mom have to suffer this way?Why did on the way out of her life, especially when she served God and served the church, you know, why didn’t God answer our prayers? For healing in the way that we wanted to so that we could still have Mom here with us. I don’t know. I don’t have full answers for those things. I know that God gave me peace about my mom’s suffering because my mom was very open about her faith to people in the hospital, and she was open about, She loved telling them that she had a granddaughter who was actually born on my mom’s birthday, believe it or not.
We did not plan it that way. That’s just the way it happened. But she was supposed to be born several weeks later. My mom was very open with people about her faith and she would give out these little Billy Graham tracks. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen those. I’m surprised there are still tracks out there really, to be honest, and people still use that.
If it works and it brings someone to Christ, that’s great, but she would hand out these little steps to peace with God. Billy Graham tracks. I know that there was one time I was in the hospital sitting with her and one of the nurses came in and she said, “Oh, I took that booklet that you gave me and I showed it to some of the other nurses.” I told God, during this process of prayer, I really hope someone in that hospital got saved up in there and I probably will never know this side of heaven if what the impact of my mom being there was. God gave me the piece, that was her last mission field on this earth was just sharing the love of Christ with people on her way out, and that’s just how she was.
My mom went to school actually to be a missionary. She never left the country. That’s a long story, but she spent most of her time in her career as an ophthalmic assistant working for an eye clinic.
I learned no one wants to have the hard conversation about death, not even the doctors. Whereas I think I’ve heard other experiences where doctors were quick to predict how long a family member had. They definitely weren’t in my mom’s situation. In some ways, that was good. But in other ways, it was really to the detriment. I think when she got down to the final weeks and days left, we were able to get her home with hospice for a few days to spend those time with my dad, but then she actually went back to the hospital and passed away there. I think for some reason she didn’t want to pass away at home. I don’t know if that had to do with, she was concerned about how it will affect my dad, but I’m glad that she had some time at home before she passed away.
It’s tough because I don’t think my mom fully faced her own mortality until palliative care came in and started talking with her about if she wanted to sign, do not resuscitate or what she wanted her final wishes to be for her living will. She ended up being very upset by that conversation, and I fault the doctors for that because I don’t think they prepped her for how little time that she had left and how her body was essentially shutting down at that point. This, especially with Steve’s diagnosis and all the uncertainty, it’s prompted us to have a lot of conversations about death, living will, final wishes, and those conversations are so important to have. I can guarantee you that your loved one does not want to sit there and think about what song you might like at your funeral, because when you’re going through grief, just thinking about something like that, it sounds so simple, but yet it’s so hard in that moment to know like, I don’t know.
Well, would they have wanted this song or am I just picking that because it sounds good or It’s easy? I would say that’s one good thing that has come out of the situation for Steve and I to have honest conversations about, do you want to be kept alive by a breathing machine? Do you want to have a feeding tube? What do you want? If things get really bad or you’re in a coma and nobody thinks you’re gonna wake up, those are. Hard conversations to have, and we also had a lawyer that really walked us through the entire process of getting a will and making sure that our daughter was taken care of in that process.
If something should happen to us before she’s 18 and how she will be taken care of, who will take care of her? We both have living wills now and some paperwork if we need to get medical records from each other. It’s just really good. I feel a lot more at peace having that prepared now, and hopefully we won’t need our wills for quite some time, but you just never know.
It’s important that we have these conversations about death. My counselor told me about a book, and I don’t exactly remember what it was called, but it’s a book where you can fill out even what you would like to have happen to your pets and what type of funeral or burial would you like to have? Those types of things. Are you wanting to donate your organs or your body in some way to help others? I would encourage you to have some of these hard conversations, especially if you have older relatives in your family. Ask them, “Hey, do you have a living will or have you thought about what you might like or not like? Do you have any plans that you would like for your funeral?” Of course, nobody wants to talk about when they’re gonna die, but these conversations are just so vital for our families because it really, not having to plan all that stuff or not having to make the decision for you because you’ve already made the decision on paper, that is just a great gift that you can give your family.
I learned that grief is best shared. One of the most powerful things I did as part of my grief and loss process was going to an all-day grief intensive, which sounds bad, I guess, to some people, but it was nice. It was at the Refuge Center for Counseling in Franklin, and I spent all day with a small group of people really to process various griefs and losses that we were going through. And even though everyone’s story was different, it’s like we understood each other on a certain level of shared experience, and that was such a gift. We were able to go through several different experiential activities. We did art projects and other things. We were able to process information in different ways, and it really got me thinking about how those experiential in the moment, Therapy exercises can be so helpful and wanting to do more of those with my clients.
I think my biggest takeaway was that I got to be the client again, and nobody knew that I was a therapist, which was so beautiful. With the grief intensive brought out that I’m not sure that I would’ve gotten there in just an individual setting or just by talking about it if we weren’t doing these different activities. Was that because Steve got his SCA diagnosis? Just a short time before my mom died was that I never had an opportunity to grieve that. I never had the opportunity to grieve the change of my life, the big change of becoming a mom because I became a mom and then my mom got sick, so there was no sense of me like adjustment period to becoming a new mom.
There’s grief and lost with that because you rarely leave your house after seven o’clock. There are so many things that revolve around nap times. Whether or not your child got enough sleep the night before, if they’re teething, how they’re feeling. It just really kind of restricts your activities quite a bit, and I don’t think I had ever taken the time to even process through that.
Who am I now that I’m a mom? There was that piece that came out, but also, this piece of who am I now, that I’m also caring for someone who’s disabled and even though my husband is at a place where he can do a lot of things for himself, things are changing and there are some things that I have to be more responsible for we’re definitely remind him of.
The thing about grief and loss is that you end up with a new identity in the end because there’s this missing space in your life of someone who used to be there who used to be such a big impact on you. I felt that when I went through my divorce process, and I also felt that after my parents passed away, I really needed to feel the depth of that related to the life that I thought Steve and I were gonna have in the life that we have now.
It’s still a great and amazing life, and I can say that in a place of acceptance, but I needed to really be sad and frustrated about what it’s like to have, of course, a very rare diagnosis that most people don’t get. I can’t say, “Hey, my husband has Parkinson’s, or my husband has MS.” People know what those things are. I have to say my husband has SCA, or my husband has ataxia and hear people say, “What does that mean?” And then you have to go into this explanation of what it means, and it just can be pretty frustrating. Of course, everyone wants to be helpful and a lot of times doesn’t know what to say or how to act or how to be helpful.
There were a lot of different things that I was able to process that. I realized there was some completion around, or acceptance around the grief and loss of my parents because there was some pre-grieving that happened before they actually died, but also because there was some finality to it and I knew, okay, they’re in heaven, they’re okay. Whereas with my husband and my daughter even too, it’s like sitting on the edge of uncertainty. What is next month going to be like? What is next year going to be like? Even the doctors can’t tell you that no one knows, only God knows. We really have to sit in a place of trust with Him and just say, “Okay, you got this.”
We’re just so thankful of how well Steve is doing all things considered, and he’s come just such a long way in therapy. He was able to graduate through that and has been walking well. So far, so we’re just, every day we’re thankful. Having faith really keeps them active, which is good as well, cuz that’s an important part of this particular diagnosis is just staying active.
If you’re grieving right now, what I want you to know is that there is hope on the other side. That if you take the time to process this, to talk about your loved one, whether that’s in individual therapy or group therapy or some type of art therapy process, that you can come to a greater place of peace about losing your loved one, even if it was a challenging relationship or even if it was a traumatic loss for you.
The main thing is that you have to stay the course and stay with the process. You can’t just shove it down or try to ignore it, or pretend like something didn’t happen. Really being able to acknowledge this hurts me, or I’m angry about this, or I’m confused. I don’t understand. That expression is so important and vital to your grief process.
If you can find a support group or other people that are going through it as well, I think that’s an incredible opportunity too. One of the reasons I chose to do the intensive was because I just couldn’t seem to get it together to fit a support group in my schedule. And I didn’t want to go in the evening somewhere after I hadn’t seen my daughter and had been working all day.
That just didn’t quite seem right and some, I couldn’t quite fit the Zoom group in. Then my schedule, I was just having problems making space for this. So when I saw the intensive option, I thought, okay, this is good. I do some intensive work with my clients and it’ll be good for me to see what that’s like.
On the other side, I will say that the next day, I don’t know if this was related to the intensive or not, I had the worst headache that I had had in a really long time, so I don’t know if that was just from all the mental and emotional processing that I had done the day before. That piece was a little rough, but I definitely left feeling a lot lighter.
It’s great to be in an environment where people are just holding emotional space for you. And that’s a lot of like what we do in therapy, and my friend and I talk about this, who’s also a therapist, is that a lot of times we don’t know how to sit in that space with people to just say like, “I’m here. I’m here if you want to talk. I’m here if you want to be silent.” I think most importantly, “I have no advice for you because there’s really no good advice that you can give in that moment” or to say like, “I know how you feel” because you really don’t know how that person feels even if you’ve been through a loss. Their loss was different than yours in so many ways. That was one of the best parts about the grief intensive was being told, “Hey, here’s one of the rules.” You can’t give advice or just make platitudes.
Another rule was that we had to own our own grief process instead of making general comments. Grief or saying, well, when you go through grief, but we had to say like, when I’m grieving or my experience with my grief process is, and that was really good too for us to be able to take ownership over the process.
You aren’t in control of all the feelings that come up. You aren’t in control of the actual grief situation, but you can be, take ownership for the process of healing, and that piece is hard. Hard, but a good process and a good journey to be on.
My story of hope right now is that even though my daughter’s going grow up in, she’s not going to remember grandma and grandpa as far as my side of the family goes, but know that I want her to know them, so I know that I will keep talking with her about them, and I will keep expressing to her, how excited they were to have her as a granddaughter and how loving and supportive they were towards her.
Thank you everyone for listening and really just being a part of this process on the journey with me. I think God knows exactly what we need at the time that we need it, and to be just completely frank with you, I think if I didn’t have this conference coming up, Where I was going to promote the podcast to a bunch of counselors and hadn’t already paid that money to do so. I may have just thrown in the towel on the whole thing.
I don’t want to do that unless it’s something that God tells me that, “Hey, we’re done and you need to stop doing this.” But that was so tough for me to keep going. And what I really thought about was all the people who said, this podcast has helped me in some way, shape, or form, or, it’s helped me understand my loved one better.
So many people have written and said, “Hey, I knew I had anxiety, but I didn’t know I had OCD until I started listening to your podcast. That’s such a beautiful story and journey because then now they can get proper help and proper treatment and know how to deal with it. Their situation is different than they did before.
It’s such a beautiful thing just being able to share these things with you guys each and every week and spread that there is hope for anxiety. There’s hope for OCD. Of course, our ultimate hope is in Jesus Christ. So know that even though we may have never met, you are a blessing in my life, and I enjoy the opportunity to be able to share parts of my life with you.
Stay tuned because I’m doing something very special for our 100th episode, and that’s bringing you 100 tips for managing anxiety. Come listen along with us in a couple weeks.
Christian Faith and and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 76. Today on the show, we’re gonna be talking about joy in the midst of trials. And our guest today is gonna be talking about his journey through a cancer diagnosis and treatment. This is John Bennett. He is a banker, author of the book, Build it right for business owners and a cancer survivor. John, welcome to the show.
John: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.
Carrie: I also should say, I feel like I inherited you as a friend when I married Steve, is that fair?
John: Yes. I think that’s very fair. Definitely.
Carrie: And I just appreciate you and your wife’s friendship and how you encouraged Steve before I even came along that God has somebody for you. And so it’s nice that we have people each in our lives that encouraged us and prayed for our future spouse. So I just think that that’s really sweet.
John: Definitely. It was an enjoyable part of a friendship, for sure.
Carrie: This is gonna be really interesting because I don’t know this part of your story. So I’m kind of learning along with the audience a little bit. Tell us about the process of getting diagnosed with cancer. What was that like for you?
John: Okay. About three and a half years ago, I was totally healthy. Never had any big health issues in my life and started having pain in my lower back. And we thought at first it was maybe. Needed a chiropractic adjustment, different things, check different things out. It kept getting worse. And obviously eventually it was diagnosed as cancer. It’s a blood cancer called multiple myeloma and it’s considered a terminal cancer. Although the treatments have come so far in the last few years that some doctors look at it as potentially a chronic disease and not terminal.
So, it’s still to be determined on that. But I went through a period of time after the diagnosis where I had to go through, started off with chemo. Went through four rounds of that. Actually I started with radiation. They radiated my spine to kill the cancer in my spine. And then I went through chemo and then I had to have three back surgeries because the cancer had gotten into my spine and one of my vertebrae had completely collapsed and another one had partially collapsed. So, they had to go in and fix that. And then I went through a stem cell transplant. And after that I had about 14 more rounds of chemo. So it was a pretty long process there for a while to move through the cancer.
Carrie: Wow! How long has it been?
John: It was three and a half years ago.
Carrie: Wow.
John: When I was originally diagnosed.
Carrie: That’s a long treatment process.
John: It was long. It built even more tenacity in me. Thankfully, I had a good bit of endurance and tenacity, but it certainly increased that. But yes, it was very much a long process.
Carrie: Going back to thinking about when you were first diagnosed and someone says you have this very serious cancer, we consider it to be a terminal cancer. How did you respond to that emotionally?
John: You know, I am a Christian and my faith in God is the rock of my life. I knew I had a choice initially with the diagnosis, so I could either surrender that to God and acknowledge that he was totally in control or I could panic. I could do one of two things. And so I chose to embrace it, which is maybe odd, but I chose to embrace it. And I thought for some reason, God has ordained me to have cancer. I didn’t get really depressed or down like a lot of people do. I chose a different route and the way I had to deal with it emotionally and spiritually was to realize that my time might be a lot more limited than I originally thought it would be.
I was planning on living to a ripe old age and had really tried to keep myself in good health. And I had to look at the very real possibility that the timeframe of life might be drastically different. I knew I would have to reprioritize a lot of things in my life. I knew that career aspirations might change dramatically. I knew that my body expectations of what I could do physically would probably have to be adjusted a lot. I would have to really adjust my expectations and accept my limitations. And yet, try to overcome as many of those as I could too. Cause I kind of wanted to look at it from a balance of I’m trusting God a hundred percent. And if he takes me out of this life with this cancer, I wanna be okay with that.
But it doesn’t mean I’m just gonna sit back and give up either I wanna work. I want to do everything. The doctors are telling me. I want to try to eat as healthy as I can. Exercise, definitely stay on all my medication, stay on top of all the testing, everything possible that could be done. That’s kind of how I looked at it. I guess I’d really just stepped back and looked at it as a challenge that God had put in my life. And I thought somehow he is going to use this in a great way. And I remember sending out an email to all of my coworkers just to let them know what was going on. I thought I would just make it. Really an open situation. So nobody felt weird about asking me or whatever, and I kind of described what was going on. And I remember in the email, I said, “I have no doubt that God is gonna make me a better person and a better leader through this”. And so I’m looking forward to the challenge and I intend to embrace it and, and roll with it.
So that made a huge difference. I think in the way that I was able to walk through the process and did I ever get down? I did have a couple of what I call gut punches in the process. We had a hard time getting me into remission. When I went through the stem cell transplant, I was not in a complete remission. That’s why we went through another 14 rounds of chemo after that, which was probably more than most people have to deal with. That have this cancer. Most people can get into a remission. The first time with less, we got to the point where I was talking to the two specialists I was working with and they were saying, “we may not be able to get you there. You may just be able to get to a partial remission”. And I said, “well, as long as I’m handling the chemo, let’s keep going until we’ve beat this thing as much as we can”. And then determined that I said, “I’m not ready to give up on that yet”. And by the grace of God, we got there, got me into complete stringent remission, which has been fabulous.
I’m glad I kept on, but there was, I would go in and I remember one time I went in and the levels had gone back up. After all this treatment, and that was a gut punch. It was like work so hard and I’m trusting God and I’m moving forward, but it’s going the other way. There were a couple of challenges there where things didn’t go as planned, but overall it was a pretty positive process and God was unbelievably faithful.
Before I forget this part, I’d say the biggest part of my treatment was having. I think, literally hundreds of people praying for me every time somebody would say, “Hey, can I put you on my prayer list for my church or my Sunday school class or life group or Bible study”. I’m like, please do just very, very open about that. And I know I had hundreds of people praying for me on a daily basis and a lot of ’em would text me. Your husband was one of them, Steve. And that I have no doubt.
God answered so many prayers. And he kept me up. As far as my spirit, my emotions, people ask me, you know, they always have to take you through some questionnaires when you get cancer and you have to meet with a counselor. And they said, “you know, are you down? Are you struggling with depression”? I said, “actually, I’m not. I feel great”. I really feel like this is what God has for me. And so I’m not gonna push back on it. I’m just gonna embrace it. I mean, it’s not what I would’ve chosen, obviously, but if this is his plan, I’m gonna trust him. I haven’t always trusted him. I wish I would have, but I thought this time I’m going to, I just said, “God, whatever you got, if you take me out early with this, or if I make it through, just let me be a witness and use me every way you can”.
Carrie: I wanna talk about that acceptance piece because even though you’re talking about a physical struggle, this is so vivid.
To our listeners who are struggling with anxiety and OCD. And I talk to people every day who say, “I don’t want the OCD label, or even, I don’t wanna have to be dealing with anxiety because I don’t know if I’m ever gonna be able to get out of this”. This may be somewhat of a lifelong struggle that I deal with.
Sometimes these can be chronic conditions. Sometimes they can wax and wane and get better, but sometimes people have to deal with them for a long time and they have a hard time. I think, accepting you use the words, God ordained me to have cancer. And I think a lot of our listeners would have a hard time saying, like, God ordained me to struggle with OCD or God ordained me to struggle with anxiety. Can you talk a little bit about like that acceptance piece, just in terms of God’s sovereignty and will over our lives.
John: Sure. I guess with anxiety and OCD it’s somewhat similar to cancer and you don’t always work toward getting that and you may try to stay away from that, but sometimes things in your life can happen and cause that some things that are out of our control, I’m sure there’s people that grew up in situations where it cause anxiety. And they’ve had a hard time shaking that. I don’t know what caused my cancer. I was a guy who exercised, kept my weight down, tried to eat healthy, tried to get enough sleep. I mean, all the things you would want to do. And I was laughing one day and I told my wife, I said, “well, I guess I need to start eating cheeseburgers with bacon all over it and smoking and whatever else I wanna do, because it doesn’t matter. Now I got cancer”.
Anyway, I guess what it showed me was I was definitely not in control. And I know we say that, but cancer kind of really. Puts the mirror up to your face and shows you you’re not in control and no matter what you do, God still is sovereign. And he may allow somebody to have cancer that did everything they could do to be healthy.
Just like I’m sure some people that may be listening. Think why do I have to struggle with anxiety? I’m a Christian, I’m got a prayer life. I’m trying to grow with God. I’m trying to do the right things. Some of those things are just unexplainable. I think, I knew that I couldn’t do anything to change it.
I remember talking to one of my oncologists and he said, “you know, I definitely want you to eat healthy. I want you to exercise and all that, but be assured that’s not gonna beat cancer”. That’s gonna help you to endure the treatments, but that’s not gonna fix what you’ve got. Just showed me how much I was reliant on guide through this whole process. And I guess when you realize you’re out of control, it’s maybe sometimes easier to relinquish that, what you think is control? Because it, I used to think I had certain control over certain things, I guess, in my life. And cancer just kind of wakes you up to showing you how vulnerable you are.
Carrie: You talked too, about accepting your limitations while also trying to overcome some of those. Was it hard for you? I imagine in the beginning, when you had to accept maybe that you couldn’t be as active as you were before, or as social as you were before, because you had to not be around people. Talk to us a little bit about what that is like striking that balance between accepting your limitations and trying to overcome ’em.
John: That’s a work in progress process. It’s something that I still work through each day. I, for instance, I like to exercise. I’ve always been the type of person that likes to get better at things. So I want to try to get a little bit in a little bit better shape or do a little bit more exercise. Well, I’ve had to learn that there is a kind of a point of no return for me with exercise. I can do it only so many days a week. I can do it only so many minutes. Or it’s not gonna really help me to get stronger or have more endurance. It’s gonna work the other way and pull me down. Fatigue is something that I have to deal with on a pretty regular basis, because I’m still on a low dose chemo treatment to try to keep the cancer at bay.
So I take that three weeks a month. And so that causes fatigue. So I have to really balance exercise with rest and I have to do, really moderation, which is not the easiest thing for me. I like to go full steam ahead. I’ve had to realize that less is more in that situation. I do need to be exercising. It’s very important. It helps me to deal with the treatments. It helps me with everything in my battle against cancer in my life. But if I push it too much, it will reverse. And then I’ll have several days to take to recover because it wears me down so much. So accepting that has been hard for me. But as I work through it more, if it gets easier every day, the social part is difficult with COVID. I’ve had to be very protected from being in large group from, with COVID the uptick right now in Nashville, where I live having to be extra cautious with wearing a mask and just really being careful because of my immune system, my weakened immune system, even though I’ve been vaccinated, the doctors don’t know how well I would handle COVID at this point, I’m a person who likes to go to events and be around a lot of people interact with a lot of people.
I’ve had to be a lot more choosy, with what I do. And just, I’ve had to say no to just countless opportunities for things like a, a big event or a concert or a ball game or things that I would love to go to. But I just have to say “no” and go to the things that I can. So I’m much more limited than I was. But when you, for a while, after you do a stem cell transplant, you can’t be around anybody. And so when you look at that, and this may be a key too, to the whole process, When you get to that stage, you learn to praise God for the times you can get out. I focus on that. I think this is awesome. I can actually go to an early lunch and sit in a corner booth and things that I can do that I couldn’t do there for a while. I get excited about that rather than get down about. I can’t go to a concert or whatever.
Carrie: How has cancer been a blessing in your life? I think the joy piece of finding joy in the midst of your trial.
John: I tell you the joy has been overwhelming with it. That’s cancer has been a gift to me. It has helped me to see even closer the finality of my life, that I finite time on this earth. It’s made every interaction, a little more sweet, a little more important. Every friendship, every family relationship, it has helped to focus me even more on growing with the Lord, because I see that when I pass away, it’s gonna be my relationship with God. And those that I love, that’s really gonna matter. Things like career and success and money and pursuit of fame or affirmation, all those kind of things are a lot less important to me now because I see how fleeting they are at this point. And I think I’ve grown a lot wiser.
People have told me that cancer ages you about 20 years and they were talking about physically. And I think it does sometimes age you physically that much, but I think it also ages you in, or it can age you in wisdom. That much too. And not that I’ve grown 20 years in wisdom, but I’ve definitely grown some because it just really puts things in a different perspective. And I think there have been times when I’ve tried to overdo or do too many things because I wanted to hit check all the boxes and hit all the options. And it’s really helped me to dial down and prioritize. And it’s so much easier for me to say no to good opportunities now, because I’ll say, “that’d be great. I’d love that.
But you know what? I would rather do this, or this is more important than the other”. And it really has been a blessing in that way too, to prioritize life more. And when you have limited energy and you have limited possibly time on earth and all those kind of things. It really dials it down so that you prioritize. And I think in so many ways, it’s such a blessing that I got cancer because I could have gotten killed in a car wreck, driving home from work three years ago, if that had happened. And that was God’s will, then that would’ve been what was best. But if that had happened, I would not have had the opportunity to work through learning these priorities and having this time to realize that my life may every away quicker than I wanted it. But I’ve got time to make some adjustments, which to me is a great gift.
Carrie: I’m curious, was there anybody, like in your reflection about your life, was there anybody that you really recognize? I need to forgive this person or I need to seek forgiveness from this person.
John: I have tried to always stay on top of forgiveness cause I knew that could make me better and all I’ll tell you what it has really accentuated is to, let go of any conflict or things that were trivial that may have caused some challenges. I have a blended family, so I have some interactions with some family members that I think, it wasn’t everything I wish it had been. There was some, I guess friction is probably the best way to describe it there. And I think I have embraced them more than I did. And I’ve just realized. Those differences don’t really matter. And I’ve been able to, reach out and love them more because God has given me that strength to do that and maybe judge them less and love them more and to let any friction in the past go.
So it is for forgiveness in that way, just forgiving on a regular basis and seeing that, I guess this acceptance too, is seeing that everybody that’s in your life. Is there for a reason, even if they, you have some challenges with them, if you have some challenges with family members or friends or people at church they’re in your life for a reason that too, I think is part of submission to God’s sovereignty and saying, “I don’t really understand why these challenges are here or why”. It’s so difficult sometimes to deal with that person, but there’s something you’re teaching me or there’s something you’ve got for me to be some way a blessing to these people. And so I’m gonna embrace that. And I tell you this, embracing this kind of, it gives you such a positive force to go forward with. Whereas resistance can really eat your energy up. And when you have limited energy, it does train you to say let’s don’t cause a lot of extra resistance to see how much we can embrace this. So we can go further with energy that we do have. I think that’s been a real growth point for me.
Carrie: That resistance is something that I see a lot for people in therapy that are dealing, they’re trying to resist. What’s actually going on instead of grieving it. I think sometimes we have to grieve losses of whether it’s losses of time or opportunities or things that we’re not able to do anymore that we used to be able to, but then getting to that place of acceptance of, okay, God, this is where I’m at right now. This is what I’m dealing with in this season. And so how can you use me? How do you wanna use me in this season of my life? Talk with us about your prayer life.
John: Okay. That has been probably the best thing of this whole process. I always wanna have a better and better prayer life. I wanted to spend more time with God every morning before I started my day.
And I would do that to some extent before, but now it is set in stone and it’s nothing happens for me before I spend my time with God. He is, I really believe in that Matthew 6: 33 seek ye first, the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. So I made a commitment. That I’m gonna get up every morning. And before I do anything else before I speak to anybody or do anything, I’m gonna go and spend a good bit of time and prayer with the Lord. And just in his word that has helped me, has steadied me through this whole process. And what has grown out of this is a I really fairly early on, I moved from a point of praying and asking God to help me with this struggle.
To where he gave me a passion to start praying for other people that were struggling, whether it was with a terminal illness or it was with a health issue or a loss of job or whatever the challenge may be. And I feel like he’s developed me into somewhat of a prayer warrior for other people. And I love to find out about people’s struggles in my church or in my sphere of influence so that I can pray for them specifically on a very regular basis and keep up with them and encourage them. And I’ve certainly become just a magnet drawn to people that are diagnosed with cancer for obvious reasons. Because I know a lot of what they’re dealing with and I wanna pray for them on a regular basis, pray for their health, pray for their walk with the Lord, or if they don’t know God that they would come to know him and also be an encourager.
I try to call and check up on them on a regular basis. You know, I know they’re having a test coming up or they’re having chemo for three weeks or whatever. I’ll put that on my calendar and then I’ll follow up with them and just check on ’em because I know how important that is and how much that means. Having gone through it. God’s given me a ministry that I never had before. And I, I don’t know anybody that’s listening that probably would wanna say, “gosh, I wanna go sign up for a cancer ministry. I wanna get cancer so I can help other people with it”. But when you’re chosen, you roll with it. And I do believe that God knows what’s best.
I know. It’s really ironic, but I’ve got more joy in my life right now than I have ever had in my life. And I attribute so much of that to what God has done through giving me cancer. And my cancer is very up in the air. It’s still considered a terminal cancer. There’s not a quote cure for it at this point, but there’s a lot of good treatments. And I might have a few years left or I might live to be 85. They don’t really know. It normally comes back in about 80 to 90% of the cases. So there’s a really high chance that I’ll have to fight it again and again, and that eventually it’ll probably take me out. We don’t know when that is. So I think in a way maybe God gave me that type of cancer so that I don’t think, well I’m curative cancer. And I can just forget all these things that I’ve learned.
I think he knows that I need probably that encouragement. And that accountability of knowing that this battle is far from over so that I can continue to keep my focus on him. And I think he allows certain things to happen in our lives, because he knows that we need it. I mean, I didn’t have the discipline to spend the time in prayer with him that I spend now. I didn’t have the focus I needed. And I think really cancer may have been the only way he could get me there. And I’m still growing up. I’m not there yet, but he knows what we specifically need. So I would encourage people if you’ve got a struggle, try to embrace that. And again, not make excuses for it. You still try to overcome it as best you can, but you also realize you’re limitations as a human being and you embrace that. Maybe God could use my anxiety because there is a ton of people out there struggling with that.
Carrie: Wow.
John: So if I can be real about it, maybe that helps somebody else. And that’s kind of what cancer has been for me. And a lot of people have said, “is it okay if I ask you about your cancer or is it okay if I tell so”? And so I’m like, “yes, I’m not, I don’t have the least bit of hesitation about it”. I, for some reason, this is a ministry God’s call me to, so, I don’t want to cover it up. I want to allow him use it any way he wants to.
Carrie: That’s awesome. I mean, I think that’s really great. I would imagine that many people in your situation might feel very anxious when you go back and have scans or tests or things done, just knowing that that’s kind of looming in the background and could come back. Is that just something that you’ve. Another piece of the acceptance for you.
John: Probably with any type of cancer and in particular with the cancer, I have you kind of do you have to look over your shoulder on a regular basis cause you know, it might be coming back and I have to get blood work every single month to see am I still clear and clean there? And so it’s always a celebration when I get that, but you just can’t focus too much on that either. And I, one thing I decided was cancer. Although this is a ministry God’s given me. It’s only a part of my life. There’s a lot of other parts and I refuse to let cancer be who John Bennett is. God’s put that in my life, but so many other, I’m a father, I’m a husband. I’m Christian, I’m a banker. I got hobbies. So many things that I’ve. That are part of me. I think when you have cancer or if you’ve got anxiety or whatever it is that you’re working with, and you’re challenged with, you gotta be careful not to let that become everything to. You know that it’s a part of life.
I don’t sit around and talk about cancer all the time. I don’t bring that up in conversations with people if they know about it, or if I can share an encouragement, encouraging word, because of that, I’ll do it. But there’s a lot of people that know me that don’t even know I have cancer because it’s not everything.
It’s a part of me. And it comes out when it needs to, but I’m more than just a sick person with cancer. And thank God. My health is good right now. I think you have to be careful there. You have to realize that yes, it can. Cancer can come back and take you out pretty quickly. But at the same time, you don’t wanna focus on that or you don’t really have a life, focus so much on your limitations. Then the time that you do have, will be wasted instead of used for the glory of God and for blessing other people.
Carrie: I think that’s so huge just in terms of not identifying solely with your diagnosis, but really identifying yourself as a whole person and spiritually as a child of God, that is, should be our main identity.
That’s huge too.
John: Right. And it is all relative too. I mean, when you look at the age you are, or whatever happens to you. I’ve had a couple of friends, one that got killed in his twenties. And so if I die early of cancer, compared to my friend, I’ve had a really long life, I think too, it’s learning to praise God for your blessings. And I remember going to in, when I first started getting chemo and I had really prayed a lot about this, and I was talking to one of the nurses and I said, “I’m gonna be the most excited cancer patient you’ve ever had”. I said, “I’m coming in here and I’m glad to get this chemo. And I appreciate you guys doing this”. And she said, “Okay, you gotta be joking”. I said, “actually, I’m really not”. I said, “you’re helping to kill my cancer. And so I’m excited about that”. And she said, “well, you’re the first person that’s ever thanked me for giving chemo”. And I said, “well, I’m gonna enjoy this process”. And I said, “that may sound stupid or crazy, but I am not gonna come in here with my head down”. Gosh, I’ve gotta get chemo again. I’m worried about, gosh, what’s gonna happen to me. I wanna come in here and live. And I’m gonna have fun and I’m gonna enjoy it and I’m gonna make the most of it. And not that it’s all pleasant, cause going through some of those things I can tell you, there was a lot of pain.
I got cut on so many times. It’s not funny. I’ve got so many drugs that have gone into my body to try to kill this cancer. It’s overwhelming. I don’t mean to make light of it. But, I was determined. I was gonna find the good in it and praise God for it. And I’ll tell you, that’s made a huge difference. And I was just, I’d seen other cancer patients in particular that got so down and they were discouraging it themselves and everybody else. And I thought, I’m not doing that by the grace of God. I’m not gonna do that. I’m gonna come in here and I’m gonna make the most of this. And whether my time is long or short, I wanna live it to the fullest.
I think that’s what God wants us to do. And we all have struggles. I remember when my Sunday school class or some people call it life group, when they first found out, I told ’em about the cancer diagnosis and it was pretty grim in there. And people were really upset and they prayed for me as a group, which was awesome. And I said, “well, let me just say this”. I said, “everybody in here has got struggles. Some of you have a wayward child. Some of you are having struggles in your marriage. Some of you just lost a job. Some of you got financial difficulties, some of you have other health issues. Some of you are depressed. I’m not the only one in here that has a challenge. So don’t worry about me and don’t focus just on me”. That’s all realize that we’ve all got these things that are challenging. And my cancer is not any more important than your problem in your marriage.
Whatever it is that you’re challenged with.
I don’t wanna be singled out and people to feel sorry for me either. Cause I mean, some other struggles that people have are a lot worse than what I have. I think it’s important too, with whatever you’re dealing with to not get on the pity party and not think that, gosh, I’ve just got it so hard. I mean, I think I’m so blessed honestly. And I think we all have to just really focus on that. That to me, that seems, like the antidote for depression is praising God. And thanking God for what you do have. And if you look hard enough, you can find a lot of blessings. I don’t care what’s going on in your life. I have certainly seen that. Just what I’ve been through in the last three and a half years.
Carrie: Absolutely. There’s a verse in James about every good and perfect gift is from the father. And that helped me so much through my divorce that it, it caused me really to look at the good things that were in my life and recognize that they were there, cause God put ’em there. And that like you were saying, I could be thankful. And that helped me through that process become a more thankful person, I think, instead of just focusing on the negative and the hurt and the pain that I was going through at that time, that helped a lot. But if you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger self who was just getting diagnosed? Which I guess you do this, because you talk to people who have just been diagnosed with cancer. What do you tell them?
John: Real good question. The number one thing is focus on your relationship with God. Trust him and move toward, trusting him more and find out how does he want to use this in your life and ask him for the strength every day to go through?
Because he certainly gave me that cancer is not easy and there’s some suffering that goes on and there is. I guess some uncertainty for sure about what your life’s gonna look like and how long it’s gonna last, what all are you gonna have to go through and all of that kind of things, but really it’s just, it’s putting your focus on Christ. I think that is the key. If somebody’s not a Christian, that’s my first suggestion to them is that they seriously consider a relationship with Jesus Christ. If they are that work to grow closer with him and spend more time with him. Let him use this process. And I guess be flexible. We were talking about, being willing to embrace what he’s brought.
I remember when I, after I had my stem cell transplant, it was a time where, as somebody told me before I had this, they said, “you’re gonna get what we call death bed sick”. And I understand what that means now because they take your immune system, literally down to zero for a few days. It’s very difficult. When I went through that, I was actually nauseous 24 hours a day for 30 days in a row. And I didn’t want anything to eat. Anytime. Every time we had meal time, I just hated it. I didn’t want anybody to bring anything in, but obviously I had to get food to continue to live through this. The funny thing in, in the hospital, I got to where the one thing I could eat was peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And that was the only thing I could eat that I even halfway enjoyed. And so they laughed because they would just fix me a peanut butter jelly sandwich for every meal.
Once I was in there for a while, because the other stuff was just so disgusting to me. And not that peanut butter jelly was amazing, but I could eat it. And I could said halfway enjoy it. And I guess that maybe goes back to, as a kid, I love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
So, I ate those and went through that process. But when I got through all the treatment, I was in the treatment room as we called it or treatment lab for my last time with the stem cell transplant. And then I would be moved out of that and go back to my reg oncologist. I remember looking back and I looked at the people that were laying there on the beds, that where I had been a lot of them, where I was, where I was down to nothing almost as far as strength and energy and, and immune system and, and everything.
I remember, it just felt like God was telling me. Don’t you ever forget where you were and don’t ever forget to praise me and don’t ever forget what I took you through and how I want to use you to encourage other people. Because now that you’ve come through that, remember how low you were. I mean, physically I was as low as you can get without dying. I remember just getting up to go to the bathroom in my hospital room, which was obviously right there beside the bed. It was exhausting. I mean, I was literally exhausted after I got up and walked to the bathroom, which was like, I don’t know, four or five steps going through that. I just felt like God was turn around and look one more time and look at those people and don’t ever forget it, whatever challenges I may have in life.
If I look back at that, everything looks pretty good. And I think if you can look back at what God has brought you through and not forget about that, it helps you to see. How blessed you are now, even with the challenges that you may have, how much better off you are and how good he has been to you. And you know, at that point, when I was walking through all that, I never knew I would get to the point I’m at now where, I mean, I’m feeling great. I just have to deal with fatigue. I’ve been able by the grace of God, I’ve been able to continue to work full time, which a lot of people have not been able to do that with this cancer. I’ve just been really, really blessed, but I look back and I know what it’s like though, to be knocked all the way down on the ground, where you are laid out flat.
I think looking back at those times and realizing that God was with me every single day that I was going through that there was a time when I really wondered, am I ever gonna get to where I can eat food again? I mean, after 20 something days of being nauseous, you know, I didn’t know that it was gonna end after 30 days, but I really thought, I don’t know if this is ever gonna change. And the doctors couldn’t tell me when or what was gonna happen. Cause I took an enormous amount of chemo to go through the stem cell transplant. And it just really upended my whole body.
That was one of those things where I didn’t know how it was gonna turn out or if it was gonna turn in a good way anytime soon.
But through that though, I see that God was there every day. I can look back at people that prayed for me. I can look back at people that encourage me. I can look back at things that I read, just so many things. Every day he gave me just what I needed to get through that day. He’s been so incredibly faithful. And I guess those 30 days were times when he carried me as the footprints and the sandpoint talks about. I can look back and see that. He carried me through that, cause I had absolutely nothing to give at that point yet he brought me through that. So he can do that for everybody else’s listening today.
Carrie: This has really been a great interview and I think so, relevant to people and encouraging, not just for people with cancer, but people who are going through any struggle really in their life right now. Thank you for sharing your story.
John: Thank you. What’s been an honor. And I hope that something, I said, blesses somebody and encourages somebody because I definitely know if you have God in your life, there is no reason to give up.
He is too strong and he’s too powerful. He’s too faithful. And he loves us too much. Whatever is knocked somebody down. Our God is a resurrecting God. He can resurrect the dead. He can sure resurrect our lives. And he’s done that with me, with my cancer. And he can do that for somebody emotionally or physically or whatever they’re going through. I just give him all the glory because he deserves it. And it’s been a real honor to be on the program.
Carrie: As I was coming back from maternity leave, I really needed to get some interviews done. And one day, Steve and I were just kind of going back and forth about different episode topics and things. And he said, “well, you know, you should interview John”. I’m really glad that he made that recommendation because I love how this interview turned out. If you ever want to support our show, you can do so. By going to Patreon, we’re also on by me a coffee for one time donations as always, you can find us anytime on Hope for Anxiety and OCD.com. Thank you so much for listening.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 75. Today on the show, I’m very excited to bring an interview with Jennifer Tucker, author of Breath as Prayer. She will share with us her discovery of this practice of breath prayers and how those helped her get through a challenging situation in her own life. So here is the interview.
Carrie: Jennifer, talk with us about your story of dealing with anxiety and depression.
Jennifer: Sure. So, my story of dealing with anxiety and depression is a whole lot of not dealing with my anxiety and depression. I think for a very long time, I wouldn’t even admit that I struggled as much as I did with anxiety and depression. I grew up feeling like anxiety was almost like a sin. It isn’t good. If you’re anxious, ’cause the Bible says, “Be anxious for nothing, do not worry about anything.” So that was crammed in my head so much. And so when I would struggle with feelings of anxiety or feelings of depression. I would really be filled with a lot of shame about that.
I tried to hide it. I tried to mask it for a very long, and I didn’t even realize what I was doing. I don’t think at the time, especially as a teenager or young adult, I really didn’t know that’s what I was doing with my anxiety. I came out a lot as. It is masked as perfectionism, overworking, and extreme people-pleasing. I felt like I needed to control every little piece of my life in order to keep those feelings of anxiety at that day. And then when things, of course, wouldn’t go my way or things weren’t quite perfect. Then, my anxiety would flare up, and I’d have a tough time emotionally. I just felt like I was just an emotional person.
Why do I feel this way? Why do I struggle so much? I’ve always leaned more toward a bit of melancholy, kind of just—more that way. Just my natural tendency is that way. Regarding the depression side, I did not recognize my depression for what it was: the symptoms. I didn’t want to have it, so I masked and hit it a lot. It wasn’t until my youngest daughter, when she was 13, started having very severe panic attacks, and that’s what sent us. Head first into the world of mental health and trying to help her through her severe anxiety disorder and panic disorder. I had to get real honest with myself and my own anxiety and my own struggles with my own mental health.
I’ve learned a ton in the last four years since we’ve been on this journey with her. Much of the work has been working on myself and addressing my anxiety and depression. I see a therapist regularly. I take antidepressants. And I love Jesus with all my heart when those things are not contradictory. I’ve come a long way. My whole idea of mental health has totally flipped and shifted since working with my daughter through all of her struggles and identifying and being honest with myself and with God about my own.
Carrie: I think your story is so relatable to many of our listeners who grew up with that church idea of, okay, well, the Bible says, “be anxious for nothing or don’t be anxious.” Don’t be afraid. And we take that the wrong way. We take it kind of like a directive, like a command, like do not almost like it’s next to do not murder, do not murder, do not be anxious, but really it’s more, I see it as comfort as God sharing with us. I have everything in control. It’s going to be okay. Right?
I don’t want you to have to worry about that. Just like I would comfort my daughter if she cries, it’s okay. I’d tell her everything’s fine. And God does that with us through scripture. It’s just that we don’t have a tone connected to the Bible. And so whatever tone gets laid on by spiritual leaders and others is the tone we take from it—many times. I like what you said about masking your anxiety as other things, such as perfectionism, as the person who’s the high achiever, the go-getter. That’s always moving, always going, the people pleasing. Often, people don’t recognize anxiety symptoms because they are so high functioning.
One of my friends was talking to me about this today, who’s also a counselor, and she said, “You know, so many people deal with high-functioning anxiety. And they don’t even realize it”. And she said, “People don’t think that I’m anxious, but there are times when I’m anxious because I look so high functioning, I look like I’ve got my ducks in a row and I have things together.” So maybe that’s a cue for some people who are listening right now. Perhaps they think they’re listening for somebody else. And they might realize, ” Hey, I have some of those things too.
Jennifer: Absolutely. I think for many years, I kept myself so busy that I didn’t have time to pay attention to what was happening. It wasn’t until I had to slow down that I could identify and recognize those symptoms for what they were when I took away all those masks. I had to quit my job, my full-time job, and stay home. Well, then, I didn’t have that job to keep me busy and distracted anymore. And so I was left with myself in a lot of ways. And so, that forced me to pay attention to what was happening. And that’s what breath prayers that we’ll talk about later have helped me, too: to slow down and pay attention. And I think that’s been vital for me. Unfortunately, I had to do it. I didn’t choose to do it. I had to do it through circumstances, but I’m so grateful looking back for that.
Carrie: And I love that you and other people we’ve talked to are trying to de-stigmatize going to therapy and taking medication as a Christian like it’s okay. For you to struggle with some of these things, it’s okay to reach out for help, whether that’s medical help or professional counseling help. So, I appreciate you sharing that with our audience. You can love Jesus, have a therapist, and take medication.
Jennifer: Absolutely. Because I mean, a lot of this is tied to our brain and how we function, and your brain is an organ, just like any other organ in your body. And that’s one thing I’ve learned through working with my daughter, too. I mean, this is as much a medical issue as it is. Mental health is physical health. It is your health.
Carrie: Yes.
Jennifer: And so treating that there are so many different factors and things. And so one of those could be needing professional medical health professional, psychiatric help. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just like going to a specialist for kidney disease or a specialist; if you have a heart issue, you go to a cardiologist. We need to recognize that the brain is so complicated and there are so many factors. Yes. There are environmental factors and far thought patterns and things that matter, too. Still, it could very much be a physical issue with the brain and those connections there and those, so identifying that and recognizing that and design-stigmatizing that, I think, is critical because it’s not a sin to struggle.
We’re all; we live in a fallen world in broken bodies. They’re going to fail us in one way or another. And that’s just that we all deal with something different. But mental health is, unfortunately, I think, where it intersects with faith. We often feel very isolated and alone, and we don’t know how to talk about it in relation to our faith. And I think a lot of times it’s not talked about enough, and it’s not. And there’s that’s where, like, the shame, and that’s what I lived with for years; I had so much shame piled on me because of my struggles. And God doesn’t want us to live that way. And like you said, when he says, “Do not fear, or don’t be anxious,” it’s not a command. I saw it as a command for so long. But it wasn’t until my daughter was struggling. She’d come to me, terrified and afraid. I didn’t get mad or yell at her for being scared. I wrapped her in my arms, and I reminded her. You don’t have to be afraid. I’m here. You’re not alone. You’re safe. And that’s what God’s doing in the Bible. He’s telling us you’re not alone. I’m here with you. You’re safe. You don’t have to be afraid. And that’s the thing that’s shifted everything for me is realizing that difference there, turning how I perceived how the Bible talked about anxiety.
Carrie: In this process of getting your daughter some help and then recognizing your anxiety working through that physically, emotionally, and spiritually, you came across breath prayers, right? So, tell us a little bit about that.
Jennifer: Sure. Yes, this was in the middle of it; it was probably two years ago or so. One of the very first things my daughter’s psychiatrist and her therapist worked with her on, and incidentally, the first thing her psychiatrist told her was breathing is the bridge between the brain and the body.
And so, the breathing exercises were one of the first things they started practicing with her to help her manage her anxiety. I had never realized that before now, different breathing exercises don’t necessarily work for everyone; for my daughter in particular, when she focuses on her breathing, it makes her more anxious and conspires with her into panic. And so this isn’t something that works for absolutely everybody.
So, she’s had to find other techniques for her, but breathing exercises help me greatly in researching. What are different things that can help her? What are strategies that both she and I can use? How can we learn to manage this anxiety? I did. I completely stumbled upon breath and prayers in a blog post online that someone I wrote, and I had never heard of before. It’s not common, at least not in my faith tradition. I had not heard about it very much. But it captivated me from the get-go because it incorporates and ties into your breath, which I already knew was significant in helping me manage my anxiety.
But it brought in the other element of connecting to God through prayer and focusing on his word. And so, when I learned about them, I scribbled down a few of them and even wrote a blog post about them. It was so helpful to me, and I just thought they were a great way to pray when you’re anxious because they are so short that it doesn’t require a lot of because when you’re anxious. A lot of it’s really when you’re anxious. I know for me, it’s hard to think, and it’s hard to process because you get so lost in the worries and the thoughts and the overwhelming feeling just of the anxiety.
Breath prayers give you the words to pray when you don’t have those words to pray or when you’re feeling anxious in particular. And so that had helped me to give me words to pray when I was like, I don’t know, I don’t even know what to say. What do I say? But it wasn’t until last year that my daughter was hospitalized; she was admitted to the hospital last February. That night, I was just such a hard night because we were facing a new battle, and it was going to be, I didn’t know, would happen because she was very, very sick. And I was terrified, and I lay down on the, she fell asleep. It was like 2:00 a.m. in her hospital room. I laid down on this vinyl couch, and I was just overwhelmed with anxiety, fear, and worry. I was terrified; I didn’t know how the following days would go, let alone the next few months ahead. And I felt like in the last three years before that, I had prayed everything.
I knew to pray for healing, strength, and all these things that didn’t happen. And I was like, I’ve said all the words I know to say, God, I don’t have any more words to pray. And at that moment, a breath prayer came to my mind that I had written down months before and was from Psalm 23. “The Lord is my shepherd. I have all I need”. And that’s the only thing I could think of when I had trouble catching my breath. I was crying. I was just so overwhelmed. But I remember those breath prayers, and I started just inhaling slowly. The Lord is my shepherd, and then exhaling. I have all that I need, and then I make myself slow down my breathing and focus on just those words. And that’s when I think breath prayer became significant to me because at that moment, as I focused on where I mean, I was in this hospital room. My daughter was so sick. I didn’t know what would happen, but I’m focusing on the Lord is my shepherd, and I’m a sheep, and he loves me, and he’s here. He’s present with me, and I have all that I need.
I have him. It doesn’t matter what’s to come. I have God; I have Christ. I have all that I need. It’s going to be okay. And I can’t explain the piece that I had at that moment. As I slowed my breathing, my anxiety eased, and I was able to fall asleep. That’s not to say my anxiety went away. Because the next day, I was anxious again. The doctors came in, and different things happened, but I found myself in those next few weeks as we were in the hospital, I’d walk the halls and breathe slowly and pray those, that one breath prayer. I think I just prayed that one mostly repeatedly, but it became my lifeline during those days. It became a prayer. I could pray when I was overwhelmed and didn’t have words. And ever since then, it has been a part of my regular prayer life. It’s not the only prayers I pray, but it’s become a significant way for me to slow down and be very intentional about trusting God and leaning into him when I’m anxious.
Carrie: Wow! That’s really powerful. I’ve had a lot of thoughts about this, and I hate to go too deep here, but when we think about it, the Holy Spirit lives inside of us. And I always just wonder about that. Yes. That’s like the Holy Spirit is somehow connected with our spirit as a person, that we’re spiritual beings. And I always wonder about the Holy Spirit’s interaction with our body. Because it says that we’re a temple of the Holy Spirit. So, I’m just curious if like breath is almost a way for us to connect. I don’t know if it is or not. This is not coming from scripture. It’s just coming from Carrie’s musings. But I wonder if in those moments, like when we slow down, and we breathe, and we pray if, that’s a way for us to just tap into the Holy Spirit that’s already inside of us, and we forget. That God’s that close. You know what I’m saying?
Jennifer: Absolutely.
Carrie: God’s already here.
Jennifer: He’s as close as our breath. I mean, man, he created man. That’s what created life. His breath brought Adam to life and gave him the soul created through God’s breath. And so our breath every day, every breath we take. It is a gift from him. He is giving us life. And he’s the one who sustains our life. And I agree. The Holy Spirit’s in us, working in us; the Bible says he’s transforming us through the renewing of our minds. And I believe that these are ways he does renew our mind and brain. And there’s science to back this up; science and faith are not contradictory. No, no. We act like they are like, no science, but no, the science is only proving what God’s already said. And he has made our body and created our body in such a complex way. And our brain literally can create new pathways in our brain.
As we retrain our brain to, for example, breathe, prayer is one way I have changed how I respond to my anxiety. So, instead of immediately spiraling into panic, I can immediately turn to Christ. Breathe in deep. Remind myself of a truth from his word. And if I do that over and over and over again if I repeat it, it’s just like with any habit or any rhythm we create in our life; you’re rewiring your brain. God’s transforming us by renewing our minds by shifting how we think and shifting how we respond to things. But it takes intentional work, and that’s breath; prayers aren’t hard. They’re super easy, but it does take intentionality to slow down. Stop. And do it just for a few minutes. It doesn’t take long, but it can significantly impact how we think and process our anxiety because we’re rewiring our brains. It’s fascinating.
I’m not a scientist; I’m not a doctor. I don’t claim to be an expert in any way, but I have researched, and it is more and more fascinating how God has created our bodies and even the act of breathing. It’s the one body process that we have control of. We can control whether we’re breathing rapidly and fast, or we can slow our breathing. But we can do that. By slowing our breathing, we connect to our parasympathetic nervous system, which tells our brain the whole process of how our body handles anxiety. It’s how God created us. And it’s okay. It’s not bad, especially if you’re going for a hike and you, a bear, come in your path; you’ll be thankful you have anxiety.
Carrie: Right.
Jennifer: Because your body is going to be the gear. That sympathetic nervous system kicks in, your amygdala takes over, and you will act and respond to that threat. That fear that’ll help you hopefully keep you safe because you’ll be able to respond to that. But many times, because of the fall, our brains aren’t always connected the way God originally intended, and our bodies don’t always process stimuli as we’re supposed to. Sometimes, the sympathetic nervous system will get riled up over something that isn’t a threat to us, and we’ll get anxious and worried. And so one way we can calm the amygdala down and calm the sympathetic nervous system down is through deep breathing because our breath connects to the vagus nerve, which connects to all of our organs, our major organs in our body. And so by slowing our breath, we’re telling our brain we’re okay, we’re not in danger here. Then, the brain can send signals to the heart, which slows down as our breathing slows down. And you really, you do feel calmer.
It’s a physiological thing that happens in our bodies and how God made us. And through the breath, we can do that. And when we connect, that’s the physical side of it. But then, when we connect prayer to that, we’re, at the same time, turning our thoughts to Christ, to his truth, to replace. Whatever those worries are, whatever those fears are, with some truth from his word, then we are connecting our mind, body, and soul all at once to Christ. And to me, that’s what makes the breath prayer so powerful. Cause there’s lots of breathwork. There are lots of different breath-breathing exercises you can do. And they are very helpful, and there are tons of scientific studies around that. But I also believe there’s just a significant power in prayer. Combining the two. To me, breath prayer is a powerful tool to manage my anxiety.
Carrie: I love that. I thought it would be cool if you could write a book. Do you put several of these prayers into a book? Breathe as prayer, calm your anxiety, focus your mind, and renew your soul. And I thought it would be cool to give people a little taste of one of those you put in there and maybe lead us through life, like one of those exercises.
Jennifer: Sure, I’ll do my best. Breath prayers are just two lines long. Usually, I, there are.
Carrie: Okay.
Jennifer: There are a few breath prayers in my book in four lines where you inhale and exhale twice to get through it. But most of them are just two lines. You inhale on the first line, inhale slowly as you pray the first line, and exhale slowly as you pray. The second line of the prayer. All my breath prayers in my book are rooted in scripture. They’re all coming from the word of God. I’ve taken verses and made them into prayers, just short little prayers.
So that way, we’re focused on the truth. And it’s from the word of God. Although you can pray, any prayers that you want are breath prayers. But one that I particularly like. It comes from Psalm 55: 22, which says, “Give your burdens to the Lord, and he will take care of you”. And so the breath prayer I wrote with that one says, “I give my burdens to you.” Cause I’m talking to God. I give my burdens to you. You will take care of me”. When you pray a breath prayer, the idea is to breathe in slowly and exhale slowly. And one, we typically breathe in through our nose and out through our mouth. And I like to remember that by smelling the flowers and blowing out the candles. It’s a common phrase that’s used with breathwork.
So you pretend that you’re smelling the flowers slowly and then slowly blowing out all the candles on that cake as you exhale fully. There are lots of different patterns and rhythms to breathing that you can do. But my favorite is to inhale for five seconds and then exhale for five seconds. I’ll try to lead you in that by just saying inhale because I can’t talk as I inhale. So I’ll say inhale and then read the first line.
Carrie: Okay.
Jennifer: Then I’ll say exhale and read the second line as you slowly exhale. And then we’ll repeat that just a couple of times.
Carrie: That sounds good.
Jennifer: And that’ll be it. Okay. Inhale slowly. I give my burdens to you. And exhale; you will take care of me. Inhale again. I give my burdens to you. Exhale. You will take care of me, and we’ll do it again. Inhale slowly. I give my burdens to you. And exhale, you will take care of me, and that’s as simple as it is. And you can repeat it as many times as you want. I typically try to pray them for at least three to five minutes. But you can start with just one minute; repeat it a few times. And you’ll find that just as your prayer aligns with the rhythm of your breath and you’re slowing down and focusing your mind on these words; it does help to calm your feelings of anxiety.
Carrie: I like this because it’s short and you could use it anywhere you can use it in the grocery store. You can use it in the car if you start to feel anxious. If you’re driving home, you don’t even have to close your eyes. You can breathe.
Jennifer: Absolutely.
Carrie: Breathe in and out. You can use this before going into an important meeting, say that you have for work or school. There are so many applications, I think. And I think you could even use this at the beginning or end of a longer prayer time where you’re giving your burdens to the Lord. And then all of a sudden, it brings up like, okay, well, these are some things that are on my mind that I’m thinking about that I want to talk to God about more in-depth or more fully.
I think we make prayer so much more complicated really than it has to be. Right? We believe it has to be a specific format or structure. That somehow God will be unhappy with us if we say something the wrong way, but God is longing for that connection with us. He wants us to honor him in our prayers and be respectful, but he also wants us to tell us exactly how we feel and what’s on our minds, etc. This is a great way to do that. And it’s simple; it’s a good strategy to integrate with, like you said, deep breathing, which is, this activity is a mind, body, spirit practice.
Jennifer: And I found just what you said, the breath prayers. They’re not the only prayers I pray. Usually, more times than not, I’ll start out praying a breath prayer, but it leads right into a more profound prayer with God in a longer prayer with more specifics; it just helps set the tone. It helps me slow down and be intentional. It opens that door to prayer for me and really kind of centers my mind more on Christ, gets me out of my worries, in the middle underneath all of my anxieties, and points me more toward Christ. And that allows me to pray more honestly with God and be, you know, it does. It has helped a lot. And so, for those who don’t pray a lot or don’t know what to pray, this is a great way to start. It’s a great thing to begin with.
Carrie: It’s very mindful, too, in the sense that it connects us back to the present moment because we’ve talked about mindfulness on the podcast and how that can be helpful for anxiety. Just to bring us into the present moment with God.
Jennifer: Absolutely.
Carrie: That’s great. So, your book is coming out August 16th. I’m not entirely sure when this episode airs, but I know people will listen at different times, too. So, if it’s before August 16th, there are presales. And if you pre-buy the book, you get extra goodies and things like that. And if you catch this after August 16th, it’ll be out, and they can find it. I’m sure wherever they buy books.
Jennifer: Absolutely.
Carrie: Is there anything else you wanted to say about the book?
Jennifer: I hope it’ll be an encouragement to people. Even if you don’t struggle with anxiety, you know, somebody who does.
Carrie: Sure.
Jennifer: I mean, I think we all have struggled with some form of anxiety, and I do make the distinction in the book, the difference between anxiety, like your normal anxiety, and anxiety disorders; those are very different things. And I think that’s an important distinction, but if you have anxiety. It’s okay. God is not mad at you. He loves you. And he’s just inviting you to turn to him. And for me, anxiety has become, instead of an enemy that I felt like I had to fight or hide from, it’s become more of just a reminder to me. I need to turn to Christ.
It’s become more of a trigger to turn to him rather than a trigger to spiral into worry, and panic becomes something. In some ways, I’m grateful I have it because it makes me turn to God and reminds me of how good he is and his presence in my life. It’s okay. I sometimes feel anxious, but God knows that I will. That’s why he says, you know, that he’s with us not to be afraid. What’s more, you don’t have to be afraid. He has to remind us a lot because we forget a lot, but I
hope this book will be an encouragement, even if it helps just one person. I’ll be grateful. I’m just thankful that you let me talk about it briefly.
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Carrie: At the end of every episode, I like to ask people a question, and when it’s a personal story, I like to go into, like, if you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?
Jennifer: I always get a little tender. When I think about my younger self, she was full of so much shame and so much fear and denial about it all. And I would just, I think I’d, go back and tell her that God’s not mad at you or disappointed in you because you have struggles. It’s okay. And you don’t have to try so hard to be so perfect. My younger self was so determined to be that perfect—good little Christian girl. You know, I was raised in church, and I knew all the right things, and I wanted to do all the right things. And that caused me to live in so much shame when I didn’t meet my expectations or what I thought God’s expectations were for me.
But I think I would tell her that you know what God loves you, and you’re okay. And you don’t have to be so hard on yourself, and you can trust him. You can trust God. And you don’t have to have control over all things because he does. And you’re okay. Relax a little bit. I would tell her that I’m very tender toward my younger self. Bless her heart, too.
Carrie: That’s awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with us today.
Jennifer: Thank you so so much. I really appreciate it.
Carrie: I like any time we can combine our physical, spiritual, and emotional health into a practice. And knowing that you’re increasing health in those different areas at the same time, we’d love for you to interact with us on Facebook or Instagram. And we will put those links in the show notes for you.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 72. I am your host. Carrie’s Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.
I think a lot of times on this podcast, I love to create content for the younger version of cure. What that means is things that I wish people had told me earlier on in life or encouragement that I wish I would have received at different points.
So for example, we had a previous episode called sending hope and love to the, not yet mothers. And I did it for mother’s day. That is episode 27. If you want to go back and listen to it, but I know how hard it is to be in the church and not be a mother or be waiting for that time in your life to come. So, therefore, I created an episode about it, where I had stories of hope combined together. Some that had already been told on the podcast. And then I added some new ones in for people who had waited a long time to have a family either because they were single for a long time or they had gotten married and were dealing with infertility.
One of the reasons I want to do this episode on reducing anxiety about having a baby is because there’s so much negative energy out there and communication about having a child. It’s very interesting because at least it’s this way in American culture. I know it’s probably different in different cultures, but in American culture, when you tell someone that you’re pregnant, of course, people usually say, congratulations, we’re happy for you, et cetera. But then the other material that you get from people is some version of some horror story surrounding their birth. “Oh, with my second baby, I was in labor for 30 hours. Oh, I couldn’t get the epidural. I progressed. too fast, you know? Oh, I just couldn’t sleep that last week of pregnancy,” whatever it is. It’s almost like we have this badge of honor, if you’ve had a negative birth story.
So I wanted to put something out there just saying that I had a positive birth. Just let that sink in for a moment. If nobody else has given you that message. I have had a positive birth story. Therefore I can have a positive birth story too. I made the decision early on that I wanted to hire a doula and I wanted to try for a natural birthing process.
Things did not play out the way that I had planned them to. So I’m going to tell you a little bit about my story. Some things that went well, some things that didn’t go the way that I planned, but still turned out okay. In the end. So I’ve broken the how to reduce anxiety about having a baby into five points.
Point number one, educate yourself on the process of birth, and what to expect. Naturally and medically, regardless of what kind of birth you want to have, this is so crucial and important because I know many women come into the process of pregnancy going well, you know, I’m just not gonna worry about pain management because I’m just going to get an.
However, unfortunately, many women don’t even know what that means or what that process is like and what to expect there. On the flip side, there’s some women who say, “I want to go all-natural or I want to deliver at home.” And they have certain things that they’re wanting, and they’re very held onto that, but then they don’t research the other things.
So. Yes, maybe you want to give birth naturally, but if something might happen where you would need an epidural or a C-section, you want to be informed about those things as well. You can do this by very simple ways. Just going on the hospital page, seeing if they have some type of virtual tour classes, and educate yourself about the stages of birth and what to expect in each state.
Ask a lot of questions. That is what your OB is there for or your midwife. If you have a doula, that was one of the best things about really having a doula was I had the opportunity to ask a lot of questions and I’ll tell you just for a moment on kind of hiring a doula, what that is, who that. We had so many people who didn’t understand us when we told them that we were having a doula, they automatically assumed that we were having a home birth and that wasn’t the case.
So what is a doula? A doula is a person who supports you through the pregnancy and the birthing process. So they’ll come out and they’ll meet with you ahead of time. They’ll talk with you about what your options are related to birth. They’ll find out what you want. They’ll help you make informed decisions by giving you information, but they won’t make decisions for you, obviously.
That’s your choice about what you want. If you want to give birth at home, they will meet you at your home. If you are giving birth in the hospital like I did, they will meet you at the hospital when you call them and tell them to come. Doulas are not medical professional, like a midwife. They have a lot of information and experience surrounding being with women who are giving birth, but they don’t actually have medical training.
So that’s an important distinction to know you will still need to have. A midwife or an OB, whoever is actually going to go through that birth process with you on the medical side of things. One of the things that I went through with my doula was hypnobirthing classes. And this allows you to teach yourself self-hypnosis how to relax and really get in a good state of hypnosis so that when you go through the birthing process that helps you with pain management. The classes were super helpful, not just for myself, but also for Steve because he was involved in all of the classes. So he kind of knew what to expect in the birthing process since this was also his first time having a child and going through that with him.
You want to make sure that your education surrounding birth and what to expect is positive. You don’t want to get on and read horror stories of other people’s birth experiences. Like I was talking about that people apparently love. For example, I was in a Facebook group for first-time mothers over the age of 35.
And I ended up having to either snooze that group or get out of it. I don’t remember. Maybe I stopped following it for a time period. There were just so many women in there talking about. Negative painful, unexpected birth stories that I really couldn’t handle all of that information. I noticed that it was turning up a lot of anxiety within me to hear these people say, oh, you know, I had this horrible labor and this was why, and this is how it went.
And therefore are other people being negative surrounding natural birth, which was something that I was wanting. You will find that if you are looking to give birth naturally without an epidural, that you will face even more negativity, more criticism, more people telling you, oh no, you’re not going to be able to do that.
So just kind of be prepared for. But I will tell you from personal experience, it’s completely possible. One of the things that I did was I got on a site called I think it was a mom and natural, and I read stories, positive birth stories from other people who gave birth naturally since staff was something that I was wanting to do.
And I felt like that was important and critical to my process. I will say that some of the materials on the website more her articles were not as helpful. And there were a little bit more fear-driven in my experience have made me very afraid of certain things. And I’ll talk about that a little bit later, in addition to taking the class with our hip, no doula, which was a very extensive six-week class theme.
And I also took a very. Class from the hospital, more so to become aware of their procedures in their processes of doing things. This helped me know more about what my options were. So for example, I knew that the hospital I was delivering at had laboring tubs, but their policy is they will not allow you to actually give birth in those tubs.
So that was important to know. I knew that if I needed to have certain medications like Pitocin, that I wouldn’t be able to be in the laboring. One of the best pieces of advice I got from the hospital class though, was to bring my own pillows. They said the hospital pillows are terribly thin and plastic-y not comfortable at all.
So I was glad that I brought my own pillows to the hospital. For sure. Educate yourself sometimes on the medications that may be needed during the labor process. The stages of labor, how your hospital birthing center does things, or if you’re having a home birth, what that is going to look like? For me being a highly sensitive person, just having the opportunity to have the visual tour of the hospital, to see exactly how the birthing room was laid out exactly how the postpartum suite was laid out. That helped me tremendously. If you’re giving birth at a hospital, you can talk with other people who have had experiences at that hospital. For me. I knew that mine had very high ratings year after year for people who’d given birth there. I talked to some people who had tremendous experiences told me great things about the nurses.
And so all of that really reduced my anxiety for people to be able to say, wow, that hospital is really great. The nurses are awesome. They really love what they do. That helped to reduce quite a bit of my anxiety. And then just knowing the process. This is where you go. If it’s during regular hours, this is where you go.
If it’s after hours, this is what floor you need to go to. All of that was super helpful for me to just kind of know what to expect when you have anxiety. Just knowing what to expect helps so much. I had some anxiety surrounding my doctor not getting there or someone from her practice, not getting to the hospital and having my baby be delivered by just whoever the general on-call person was at the time.
More. So the anxiety about that person being male, I had, even though I’ve had male doctors in the past that have had positive experiences with, there was something about my birth space that I really only wanted female medical professionals in there. People who had actually had the ability to give birth.
That just felt most right. For me. I had a lot of questions for my doctor because I had heard a story about someone that happened to from their practice. She really provided a lot of assurance to me that either she or someone else from her practice who were all females were going to be able to get there.
And that they very rarely had someone from the hospital deliver one of the babies. That provided me a lot more reassurance. My second piece of advice on reducing anxiety is to create a plan, but also to hold on loosely, I think it’s good to create a birth plan. Some people say don’t create a birth plan because you’re just going to have to throw it out the window.
Anyway, that doesn’t make sense. That’s kind of like saying, don’t have a blueprint for your house just because you can’t put the kitchen on the left side because of where the water line is, whatever. You still want to have some kind of plan, but also know that things are not going to go exactly how you have it on your plan.
So it’s important to have some flexibility and to hold on to things loosely. One of my fears was that my daughter would not come and then I would need to have an induction. This was a fear because I knew that I’m older and when you’re having a baby, when you’re older, they don’t want you to necessarily always carry to 40 weeks.
So I was praying and really wanted my daughter faith to come at just the right time so that I wouldn’t have to be induced. I had some serious anxiety about Pitocin. I had heard a lot of horror stories from people who had experienced induction. Pitocin or not just inductions, but also like, uh, trying to speed up their labor with it.
I had read a lot on the internet about the horrors of it and how it’s overutilized in America, et cetera, et cetera. I had read a lot of information about inductions leading to C-sections different things. Here was all this anxiety. My plan was. To really do some early laboring at home. Get to the hospital, allow things to progress.
Naturally, not have medication, not having an epidural, be able to give birth more quickly and move on with. I was also planning to use my hypnobirthing for pain management, those things I just listed pretty much did not go according to plan. I had done a lot of research about Pitocin and inductions, even though those weren’t routes that I wanted to do.
I was able to actually advocate for myself when I needed an induction. I was able to talk with my doctor about the concern regarding inductions leading to C-sections. She was able to provide me some reassurance that her C-section rate was actually a lot lower than the average that I had read about online, because I expressed to her my concerns about Pitocin increasing pain of contractions. We were able to come to an agreement to start me out on a really low dose and to gradually increase that through my birthing process. One of the things that my doula told me after that experience was that, you know, my level was started on a two, whereas she had seen other people’s level, just be started out on a 10 and.
I’m so glad that I did that research and expressed my concerns because I think it helped me have an easier labor process. I actually never got up to a 10. I only got up to eight before I delivered and everyone’s different in terms of what their needs are. And I don’t know how it translates. I just know the number that I was seeing on the medication, but my point is that doing your research allows you to make informed choices later.
And in doing that research, understand that everything you read online doesn’t mean that that’s how it’s going to go for you in your specific situation. Same thing with experiences that you hear from other people. Just because they had that experience. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to have that experience in the end.
I’m glad that I had a birth plan, even though I changed it last minute to adjust it for the induction related to my health concerns that I had at the end of pregnancy. The things that did go according to my birth plan were really being able to advocate for myself about wanting to have as natural birth as possible.
That was really respected by people in the hospital. And they didn’t try to push medication on me, which I really appreciated in terms of pain medication or epidural. I had a request that there were to be no male medical staff in the room while I was giving birth. And that was respected. I had been told by my doula that they usually bring over a mirror to allow you to see what’s happening in that pushing process.
I told them I was not interested in that. And fortunately, the hospital that I went to already practiced some good afterbirth things, such as, you know, skin-to-skin, contact, delayed cord, clamping, those types of things. I didn’t have to worry about putting that in my birth plan as much. Although you may want to check with your hospital and to see what their policies are on.
My OB had a saying about birth. That’s the only thing predictable about it is the unpredictability about it. With that being said, it’s good to have a positive relationship with your provider, where you can talk about what you would like, what your plans are, and with the understanding that there’s some give and take about what’s able to happen.
What’s not able to happen. One of the things that I did not want. Was an IB and that wasn’t really a possibility. They said, you know, it’s really just hospital policy, even if you’re not getting these IB medications that you still need to have one in just in case of emergencies so that they can get medication in you quickly.
However, I knew that going in ahead of time, which was good for me to know. I also communicated on my birth plan that I had negative hospital experiences in the past. And wanted this to be a more positive experience. One of the reasons I felt like experience was negative in the past was due to lack of communication.
And so I really wanted to make sure that they were communicating everything to me, that they were explaining things to me before they did them. I know that other people I had heard from had had experiences where things just kind of happened, or they were given medication without being told about it ahead of time and so forth.
And so. So create a plan, but hold on loosely, pray about it, but also know that God is in control and it’s going to be okay. Number three, visualize what you want, not what you don’t. Our brain has a way of trying to protect us from danger and negative outcomes. That means that we’re going to create all kinds of what if scenarios in our mind, what if this happens?
What if that happens? And when we worry, we’re basically visualizing what we don’t want to happen. Right. So we’re dwelling upon. Okay. And, and I had this very negative vision of, I go into the hospital. It’s some kind of medical emergency happening. People are rushing in there. And so then I was able to kind of talk through with my duel a little bit about what if that did happen?
What if there was an emergency. You know, you would deal with it. You would make decisions based on the knowledge that you have and the knowledge you’re receiving from the doctors. And you would, you know, go with the flow in that situation. But what if those things don’t happen? What if things progress very normally or expectedly, then you’ve wasted all of this time with this worry and this negative visualization in your mind.
So it’s important to be able to sit and visualize the type of birth that you want, not the birth that you don’t want. You want to be able to visualize how you’re going to manage the pain and discomfort that comes up from giving you. For me, one of the things that I really wanted was to be able to have letters from friends and family read to me while I was going through labor.
This was actually the most beautiful part of my birth process. Steve did just an amazing job of reaching out to people. Talking to various friends and family members and saying, Hey, will you write a letter of encouragement for Carrie? Will you write a note? So beautiful. Just people that had verses that they shared in their notes, people that wrote things like.
A funny story, maybe that they had experienced. I know several people mentioned in their notes that they would be praying for me and talked about how really conceiving our daughter was such an answer to prayer for Steve and I and how God was going to get me through this process. One thing that happened that Steve didn’t know that I did was I created a little book.
And in the book, I put scripture verses of encouragement. I put positive birth affirmations. And then after that I put little post-it notes that he had written to me left around the house. This is just kind of something that he does husband award here. He writes just little positive encouraging things for my day.
And so I had kept some of those that meant a lot to me. And during the process, when things got difficult, I asked him to read those back to me and he said, this is very strange. Like I’m reading something that I’ve written previously to you out loud, but it was just such a good thing. One of the things my doula said was that when Steve would read those notes to me, she just noticed like that my whole body would relax and they were able to kind of see on the monitors and things while my blood pressure was doing.
And she just. It was really healthy and really allowed me to kind of get through the process, letting go of the, what-ifs. One of the things that I really loved about the hip, no birthing process was that there were positive affirmations that we listened to every day. And it was 40 minutes of positive affirmations.
And at first, I was kind of like, okay, this is really cheesy and cheeky because of. Someone repeating things over and over, like you deserve to have a wonderful, beautiful birth, you know, and a lot of times actually they were in the first person. So I’m trying to think of what some of them were. So they would say things like, you know, my body is healthy.
To give birth. My body knows exactly what it needs to do. One of the sayings in hypno babies is each birth wave. They don’t call them contractions. They call them waves, you know, brings me closer to my baby is all very focused on the positive. They changed some of the wording, so that. You don’t associate birth with pain and negativity.
They don’t call it labor. They call it birthing time because labor just sounds like it’s really hard work and their whole idea surrounding it is to have a more easy, more comfortable birthing process for them. So these positive affirmations helped so much in, even though in the beginning, I thought they were kind of cheesy.
They helped so much in being able to shift my mindset and just remind me that my body is prepared to give birth. And that that’s already hardwired in just like other bodily responses, like breathing and sweating. It knows what it needs to do. And if we’ll just be able to back up and stay out of the way, then we can allow our body to do what it needs to do.
But what happens when fear takes over is that we create tension, which then causes us to be in more pain. So the more that you’re able to relax through the process, the more your body will just, your muscles will engage and do the things that they need to do. But that fear. Slows things down. And that fear actually constricts you from opening up, which is one thing you need to do, right.
I’ts open up quite a bit. Once you’re able to like relax and open and be calm, then things will just kind of follow as they need to flow. It’s easier said than done. But the more that you practice and the more that you put those positives in, and kind of even, they talk about visualizing your cervix, opening and dilating, maybe even like visualizing as you’re going through the birthing process, visualizing, you know, your baby moving through your body, those types of things.
As I was going through different stages. My doula would talk with me about, you know, okay, this is like face, like she’s moving now. Like, you know, her, head’s almost about to be out. Just kind of like talking me through that process. Like, this is a good thing everything’s progressing. Well, you know, you’re doing what you need to do.
Number four. Understanding that everyone has anxiety at some level about giving birth. And that’s a normal thing. Anxiety is not always bad. And I think we often label it as something that’s bad. But one of the things that we talk about on the podcast is that anxiety at some level is informative for us.
Anxiety causes us to lean into God, more anxiety causes to really seek after God and pushes us to do bigger things than we would normally do on our own. So anxiety in itself is not always bad. It was understanding it is your body and your brain’s way of trying to protect you. And when you’re able to say back to them, You know what I am a child of God.
I know that he loves me. I know that he cares about me. I know that he is not going to allow something horrible and awful to happen unless it’s somehow part of his redemptive plan. So if something goes wrong and something happens to me or my daughter, that God still has a plan for the future. And that it’s a good plan and I can move forward in that.
That is huge. There were things that I found out about my body, my physical health kind of declined, unfortunately very rapidly towards the end, right before I gave birth. And that was really hard to deal with. I got diagnosed with something called holy state. Of pregnancy, that’s something I heard, Michael Phelps, his wife, I believe talk about on a birthing podcast.
I think she also had that with some of her pregnancies with Cola stasis. There is a higher rate of stillbirth and I was already at higher risk of stillbirth for being older. That obviously was hard to hear and was anxiety-provoking. There were two things that I clung on to though they would always tell me when they did ultrasounds and so forth, that my daughter looked healthy, that everything looked okay.
They didn’t see any issues. And so I thought, okay, this is a good thing. Even if my body isn’t reacting well to the pregnancy, my daughter is still okay. The other thing that I held on to was I really felt like God gave me this baby. And I thought if God has given me this baby as a gift, then I just believe and have faith that he’s not going to allow this to end negatively.
This is going to have a positive ending to the story, going back to the positive affirmations for a moment, that experience caused me to really think. What if we, as Christians selected some verses about who we are in Christ and listen to those or read those every day because I probably did this for well, at least six weeks that I was in the.
That’s a long time. What if we really meditated on some of those scriptures that said that we are loved, that we are a child of God, that we are a part of his family. Would that make a difference in how we live our lives? Out of that, a love and acceptance from God. I really think that it would, and I challenge you and encourage you, even if you find a scripture too, that encourages you, that challenges you to really meditate on it every day for a while and see if that changes.
Number five, don’t get so stuck on the process of pregnancy giving birth that you lose sight of the outcome is kind of like a wedding. Weddings are beautiful thing, but they can be really stressful. There’s all this planning that goes into it. And then same thing with giving birth, something doesn’t quite go right.
You know, the caterer shows up late, you have a family member that can’t find the venue. Whatever the case is, there’s always something that doesn’t quite go according to plan. But at the end of the day, you’re married. This is what I told our wedding photographer. And when she was shooting some pictures of our wedding, I said, we’re very laid back.
And we understand that regardless of what happens at the end of the day, we’re going to be married. Did everything turn out perfectly or as we planned? No, but the outcome was very positive. The outcome was what we were looking for. Apply this same thing to your birth, visualize yourself, holding your baby.
Even if you don’t know what they’re going to look like. Although I will say those creepy 3d ultrasound photos are pretty accurate. If you happen to have any of those, they kept trying to get a picture of face, face. I was like, I don’t care because I had to have all these ultrasounds at the end because of the coleus stasis.
It doesn’t matter to me, however, I can go back and look. And she had those same chubby cheeks on the ultrasound that she had after she came out. So those things are pretty accurate and incredible. Visualize yourself, holding your beautiful baby. That is what you want to be focused on. Don’t get so stuck on the process and all the ins and outs of what could happen, couldn’t happen.
And then understanding. It’s hard. I think to fall in love with someone that you’ve never met before. You’re trying to kind of do this ahead of time, but holding your baby is a great thing. It’s almost, there’s a verse in the Bible that talks about how after you’ve had a baby, it’s almost like you forget the pain of labor.
And I think there is some truth to that. When I look back on my process, I don’t remember necessarily or tune into the hard thing. I remember her coming out and thinking like, oh, wow, like this is over now. I remember Steve reading me, those encouraging stories and some of the things that people said. I remember some of the hard things, but they’re not attached to paying.
If that makes sense. I don’t know any other way to describe that. It’s like when I look back at the process, I see the whole thing is a positive experience because I was able to birth my daughter. She came out healthy and it was amazing. I will say that anyone who’s interested in a more natural or a non-epidural.
That there’s something very empowering about going through that process and knowing that you did that people say that I have a high pain tolerance now, or they think it’s somehow amazing that I did that. I don’t really see it that way myself. I think my pain tolerance probably is higher than it was before.
I’m more look at it as this was something that I knew I could do and set out to do and wanted to do, and had very specific reasons for wanting that. And I was able to achieve that. So did my birth story go according to plan? No, because towards the very end. My health declined. I was diagnosed with Cola stasis, as I explained earlier, had a higher rate of stillbirth.
So my OB really encouraged me to deliver at 37 weeks as I was in the process of going back and forth with talking to Steve about, do we take that recommendation or not? Do we let her mature in there a little bit longer? My blood pressure ended up spiking. And about a week before I gave birth, I am. Being diagnosed kind of at the last minute with preeclampsia too.
So having those two health conditions, God really gave me peace about the induction that this was what we were supposed to be doing. There was a lot of prayer that went into that process and honestly, a lot of anger towards God, because. I was so mad that he didn’t answer my one prayer that I had kept praying that faith would come in her own time and that I wouldn’t have to be induced.
However, is one of those situations where God gives you what you need, not what you want. So the process of becoming a parent is hard sometimes. Things don’t go according to plan, it’s a lot of trial and error. You just have to roll with it, but being able to have my daughter, the way that I did and the way that things happened, and yet she still turned out, okay.
She still turned out healthy, just really gave me an increase trust in God and an increased confidence that even though things don’t go according to my plan, that he has a plan and that he loves me to not always give me what I want or what I asked for in prayer. He loves me enough to give me what I need, even when I don’t know that that’s what I need at the time.
So that was something that God gave to me through my birth process. I think that’s helping me as a parent now to just be okay when things are a bit out of my control or faith is crying and I don’t know exactly what to do. Okay. Maybe. Try this or try that, you know, why is she upset right now? Or had expected her to take a nap at this time sounds small.
And she didn’t or so forth. It’s just helping me be more go with the flow because of what I went through. And how hard that was for me to accept being acceptance of all my plans changing. It’s also allowed me, given me the opportunity to be able to live more day to day in a mindful sense of in the moment, teaching myself that I can only deal with the information that I have on the table right now.
That was something that happened throughout my pregnancy process. I could only deal with what was in front of me at the time. At first, my levels were elevated, but they weren’t at the threshold of cholestasis. I just had severe itching on my hands, on my feet, other areas. Actually, I didn’t really have as much itching on my hands, but that’s one of the symptoms.
I had more so the itching on my feet, I would have to run them under cold water at night in order to be able to just relax enough to sleep. And one of the things that got me through that was a story of hope on one of our very early podcasts, where one of my friends had shared a condition that she had during pregnancy that caused her a lot of problems.
And, that continued even after she gave birth. So when my levels were elevated, I just had to deal with the symptom. Then it crossed the threshold and then there was new information and there were other things that happened. There were more conversations to be had. Then my blood pressure spike. I couldn’t really deal with how my birth was going to go way back, you know, several weeks before and really had to make a lot of shifts and a lot of changes to be able to get myself ready, business-wise even, and so forth to deliver three weeks early yet, everything was already in place that I needed to have in place. My clients had referrals. I had things ready to go, you know, by that point so that we were ready at that time. If there’s anything that I could leave you with it’s to know that if you follow some of these steps, it’s really going to help you have a more relaxed birth process.
It’s not going to be a hundred percent relaxed. It’s not going to be pain-free, but it’s going to be a process that you feel some more greater comfort level that you’re going to be able to get through and work through something about giving birth. And that’s a hard thing, but once you get through it and you’re like, wow, well, I got through that hard thing.
I can get through other hard things too. Thank you for tuning into my episode on what younger version of me and I, when I say younger version, I mean like a year ago, wish that she knew about giving birth and I hope that it helps somebody else. Maybe that’s in. Station of their life to hear something positive.
And even if you get nothing else out of this, just know that you can have a good birth experience. You can reduce some of your anxiety about having a baby. God is in control. He loves you and it’s all going to be okay, whatever happens. It’s going to become a part of your story. Thank you so much for listening today.
I know, even before I became pregnant, I was trying to get people on to talk about postpartum anxiety and depression, because it’s a big thing that happens in society that unfortunately people don’t always talk about. I haven’t had much luck on getting a guest for that. So if you know somebody that does that kind of work, feel free to have them contact me through the website. The best way to know about what is going on with the podcast is to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or sign up for our email newsletter. You can find us anytime at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Thanks for tuning in and you’ll hear from me in a couple days.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling.
Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.
Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time be comforted by God’s great love for you.
We are privileged to have Stormie Omartian on the show today. Stormie is a bestselling author who personally connects with readers by sharing experiences and lessons that beautifully illustrate how God changes lives when we learn to trust in Him.
Stormie’s struggle with anxiety and phobias
Her horrible experience of growing up with a mother who has mental health disorder
Overworking to cope with trauma and depression
Finding hope for the first time and surrendering to God
What does the process of forgiveness look like for Stormie
Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD episode 71. I’m very excited to bring you this interview with Stormie Omartian. Some of you may be familiar with her books, such as Power of a Praying Wife. She’s also written a book called Power of Praying Through Fear. While I’m sure Stormie and I could have had a long discussion about her book. This episode is more about her personal story of coming to Christ and how Christ delivered her from the intense fear and depression that was over her life, lagging her on a daily basis.
There’s so much hope and encouragement that can be received from hearing other people’s testimony. So I hope that that is what you get out of this episode. Normally I don’t put trigger warnings on the podcast if you’ve been listening for a while, because there are so many different things that probably that we talk about that could trigger people. However, I do want to make mention that topics of child abuse, mental illness in the family and suicide come up in this episode.
Carrie: Stormie, I knew that you had written books on prayer and I actually received some as, wedding presents. One of the sweetest things that someone did for me was an older lady in my fiance at the time’s church. And because we started going to my church after we got married. There was an older woman from his church who sat down with me and got me coffee. And we just talked about, you know, how marriage can be hard. And she gave me The Power Of A Praying Wife. And she said, “this is something that’s really helped me in my marriage. And I just wanted to give that to you”. And it was just probably one of the best wedding presents that you could get is just some mentorship from someone who’s been there and been in the trenches. And gone through some hard things. So that was really wonderful. And I know that you have several books on The Power of A Praying Husband and Praying For Your Children and so forth.
Stormie: Yes.
Carrie: And I didn’t know until really my assistant brought it to my attention that you struggled with anxiety and phobias earlier in your life. I was curious about hearing that story from you.
Stormie: Bless the lady who gave you that book. I wish I had had that book when I first got married. You know, it took me a number of years after I was married. To figure that book out. I mean, to learn enough, to be able to write that book. And so it really changed our marriage. When I learned how to pray like that. The Power Of Praying Wife and Power Of Praying Husband tells you how to pray. And I was raised by a mentally ill mother. And sometimes when we think of mentally ill, it’s just some kind of, you know, not a big deal. As far as, I mean, it’s a big deal for the person, but not a big deal for other people, but for her, my mother, she wasn’t just a little mentally ill.
She was like raving crazy. I mean, really she was really abusive. Locked me in a closet much of my early childhood, very erratic the way she behaved. I mean, she would just slap me across the face, outta the blue, and it always shocked me cause I didn’t know what I’d done. And then she would lock me in the closet and I couldn’t cry because then I’d get punished for crying. I couldn’t ask to get out because then I’d get punished for that. It was scary to live with her. We were on a ranch, isolated from the rest of the world, really 30 miles from the nearest lake.
I was really isolated until I started school, but I was really terrified to go to school, probably a 20-mile ride into school and where the school was. And I was just afraid of the children cause I wasn’t around children and they just seemed loud and scary to me. And so it was scary to go home and it was scary to go to school. And I grew up with so much fear and anxiety and feelings of futility and hopelessness. All always afraid of, what was gonna happen. And my dad, we had a ranch and he worked the ranch. When the weather wasn’t good, he’d go to the logging mills and he would stay there to make money in the winter or when it was a bad season, you couldn’t grow crops or you couldn’t, you had to keep your cattle protected and stuff like that. He wasn’t always around.
So I was with her and she just constantly talking to the voices she heard in her head, it just so scary. I mean, she wasn’t just like a normal person who had problems. She was a scary person. You didn’t never know what she was gonna do. And so I grew up with these feelings, so strong fear and anxiety and hopelessness and helplessness. And just all of those things. I was just afraid all the time. I was afraid to do anything. I was afraid to do something wrong and I didn’t know. And when I did get slapped across the face, I didn’t know what I’d done wrong. It was really bad. And so, so much so that by the time I grew up. I still, even though I got out of the closet, we moved to a small place that didn’t have any closets. I mean, the closets were two feet wide. You really couldn’t put someone in there. I wasn’t in the closet anymore, but she was still nuttier than ever and more abusive. And she talked about me in degrading, profanity, always things about me. Most of them are unrepeatable, and being described in those terms is really hurtful.
I just felt she was just always mean and always nasty and always abusive, always violent and crazy, always crazy talking to all these voices that she heard and showed out, people were out to kill her. And it was nutty. You never felt any normality. And so what I carried with me from all that was by the time I was out of the house, supporting myself and I was still locked in a closet. It was an emotional closet as opposed to a physical closet. I mean, it was, went with me everywhere. I tried everything when I was growing up to get rid of that pain. I had that pain all the time and always feeling, always feeling like crying, always feeling like I would never be accepted anywhere.
Nothing was ever gonna go right. Nothing was ever gonna be good in my life. And I just wanted to get away from the pain. And so what I did when I was 14, I just swallowed all the pills I could find in my house, cause I didn’t wanna wake up anymore. Cause it was so painful. I felt out of place every place I went, she was nutty enough that she mixed all the medicine up.
So I don’t even know what I took, but I was very sick, I know that. So, once I lived through that, I thought I’m just gonna try as my best to do the best I can to get good grades to develop any talents or gifts. I felt like it could do carry off and hoping that I could become a workaholic and just get out of my mess, graduate from high school and then went to UCLA.
I put myself through school. I was working in the evenings and on the weekends. I don’t even know how I did it, but I had to do it, we didn’t have any money. We were very poor and rats used to run across my bed at night. Often I went to bed hungry and that’s when I was with my parents. So they couldn’t provide any help at all. And so I was trying, putting myself through UCLA and I thought, wow! I don’t know if I can make this, but I started getting work in Hollywood. And the TV shows, there were a lot of musical TV shows. So I was singing on them and dancing and, and little acting with comedy skits and things like that. So I was working a lot.
I was working seven days a week. I’d work as much as I possibly could, two jobs, which is really hard to do. I had two shows that I was working on: the Glen Camel Show and then another local show called Loman and Barkley which was LA. So I worked seven days a week and I was really killing myself because I knew I couldn’t rest. I was so insecure that going to bed hungry really affected you as a child. And you’re always afraid you’re gonna end up homeless or, you know, and I wasn’t going back to live with my mother. I was gonna make this work, but I, I could never shake the depression and the anxiety. And if I got insecure on one of the sets, I would just go into one of the bathroom stalls and just cry and cry and cry. And so no one could hear me, but I just, it was so depressed and so anxious and so hopeless.
Carrie: And was staying busy, kind of one of those ways that you just coped with that anxiety. If I just stay on this hamster wheel and keep going and going, going, maybe.
Stormie: Exactly. Exactly. That’s exactly it.
And I was too insecure to turn down any work and the work, like that comes in seems like in seasons, in season, outta season. But I worked all the time, all the time. I was always auditioning, always getting jobs, always getting another show and I was getting worse and worse and worse. As far as the depression goes, it wasn’t getting better beause that’s kind of an insecure kind of job. Anyway, you just feel like you’re only as good as the last day you worked. You know what I mean?
Carrie: Wow!
Stormie: You were judged every day. What you did do and how did you come through, was this good or was it not? And, I always judge myself so harshly that it was you. If I had a good filming thing where we did a great taping of a show or whatever, then the next morning I was really depressed, cause I didn’t know if I was ever gonna work again and then I’m going on to the next job and the next and it just, I never got better.
I just, it got worse. It got worse and worse and worse. I always thought that I, you know, if I got out of the situation with my mother got out of that, worked really hard. Then I could be free of all that, that didn’t happen. It just got worse. I think the older I got and not that I was getting old, but I was in my twenties. And at that time, if you got in your late twenties, you were, like pretty much washed up. You know what I mean? So that was always bothering me too. You know, that I was getting older. Didn’t seem to get any better. It wasn’t until everything in my life just collapsed. All of a sudden my health was bad. My mental health was bad.
I was just depressed so badly that I could hardly function. And I just, and emotionally just, it was awful. And I just felt like I, I couldn’t go on anymore. And that’s when one of the girls I was singing with in the TV studio and the recording studios too. Cause I did a lot of background singing for other artists and stuff like that. And that lady, Terry, she was a little younger than I was. She took me to meet her pastor at the church. That was not far from where we were doing all this work and all the studios and everything. And she introduced me to the pastor and he just described Jesus in a way I could understand. He said, “God has a purpose for your life and He has plans for you”. I never heard such stuff, really never that I had a purpose. Wow! I thought I was just scratching, clawing for a purpose, you know, but God had a purpose for me and if I would receive him, He would change me from the inside out. And I thought, wow! it just seemed too good to be true. And so I did receive the Lord in his office and my friend Terry was with us too. And I felt hope for the first time.
I don’t remember feeling hope before. And then I thought I was, it was really big. And I thought I have a purpose. And there’s hope for my life. It’s almost like I saw a light at the end of the long dark tunnel of my life. And I just started coming with Terry would pick me up every week to take me to church. And I mean, for months and months, she did that cause I was too depressed. Depressions I had, I could hardly get out of bed. And so if there was a day, I didn’t have to get outta bed, but she would come over and get me out and I’d throw something on and she’d take me to church. And as I went to church and started hearing the truth, being told of how God gives us a sound mind of how He has a purpose for us. He has plans for a great plan for our life. He’s the God of the impossible. And He can do things that you feel are impossible.
The hope began to grow. And I met my husband. I had been on a recording session with him, and Terry had introduced me to him when, after I got into this church, he came to the church for the first time when I did in this particular church.
And so we meet again there. I met him on a record session that Terry had contracted us to do. And when I met him the year before, I didn’t feel good in my own self. To be able to have a relationship with someone who was a really nice person. And, you know, you don’t wanna just give someone a, a beat-up kind of damaged emotionally person.
But so, when I saw him again in church, I thought, wow! I wish I’d been going to this church for longer than just a week. We started dating, and we got married within that year. I was so surprised to have the Lord and a faithful husband who loved me, but I still had depression. I still had it. I can believe it. I thought that would solve everything.
Carrie: Right.
Stormie: But it didn’t. I still had it. I still had the depression.
Carrie: When you get in a healthy relationship after being in such an unhealthy relationship for so long, it’s almost like it’s hard to allow people to love you. And it seems kind of foreign.
Stormie: It does. That’s exactly right. That’s a way to describe it, cause you’ve not had that before and you think, well, they are, they’re all together and everything. And I know that I am not, you know, even though I’m not telling people that I’m not, I knew, but I was surprised to find myself so depressed. And so I couldn’t believe it. And I thought, oh my gosh, what is the matter with me? Why am I still depressed? You know, I thought these things would fix it and it didn’t. And so my husband would say, “why don’t you go to the church”? He knew that the church had Christian counselors there. They were, actually the pastor’s wives and these wives are really why they knew the scripture.
They knew what God has for us in the way of wholeness. They knew how to pray. They knew how to pass and pray. And you know how to teach the scripture in a way that would really help you hang on to the truth. And so when I went there, this lady, one pastor’s wife, Maryanne, talked to me for an hour and I told her everything. I never told anybody everything. I had told my husband everything about my past, but I never told anybody else. And she said, you know what? We really need to fast and pray. And she said she would fast and pray with me. And she said for three days, and this was really shocking because, you know, I had gone to, with too many times, hungry. I’m very hungry. I was hungry.
Carrie: Sure.
Stormie: And then deliberately go to bed hungry for three days. I thought was insane, but I really wanted what God had for me. And I really trusted her cause she was really intuitive and really understood. Just understood everything. And so I did, she said you can fast for three days and then come back and then I’m gonna pray with you and we’re gonna get rid of this depression. I thought, wow! I didn’t know what to think of that. And really, I never heard anything like that and I didn’t know what the possibilities were, but I thought it would be nice it. He prayed for it, you know? So I did that, went home when she said, write out a list of all of your sins that you haven’t confessed. I thought, whoa!
I don’t, you know, so, so I did, I wrote, I just had a list and I just was writing everything that came to my mind. And I was really afraid of what was gonna happen when she read it, but she didn’t wanna read it. She just laid her hand on that paper. And when we started to pray, I, first of all, had to confess my unforgiveness toward my mother. I’ve been trying to forgive her and what I knew was a done deal yet. I knew that I had such bitterness and all those years that she was brutal toward me and I had to confess all my cult involvement. I had been searching in the cult, you know, trying to find a way to God, I couldn’t get it. I just couldn’t. I tried all these things.
I tried hypnosis and astral projection and all these new age and cult things that I was in. And so I had to confess all of that and say, “Lord, I, I wanna serve you. I don’t wanna serve anything else that’s not of you”. So, she said, “The sooner you get rid of the things that are not of God, the sooner you can move on with God to become all He created you to be”. The third thing was see, forgiving my mother, and getting rid of the cult involvement. And I can’t remember what the other third thing was. Wow! I was, I’ll think of it. Anyway, gosh, I’ve been talking about this for a hundred years. So when I did those three things, she put her hands on my shoulders and my head and she prayed for me.
She had invited another pastor’s wife when I made those confessions. It was like God just lifted that depression off of my shoulders. It was a wildest thing. I tried medicine. It wasn’t my, like, I hadn’t taken medicine for it. I’d tried drugs and alcohol and just anything. I didn’t do that when I was working. It’s not like I was an addict or anything like that. I just was trying to kill the pain in whatever way.
Carrie: Sure.
Stormie: When she prayed for me, I felt the depression lift. And now that’s a physical manifestation of just heavy things on my shoulders and my head and my chest. And my heart felt it lift, lifted off. I thought, wow! I mean, I was amazed. I didn’t even know that was possible when that lifted. I kind of expected it to come back the next day. You know what I mean? When I get depressed again, I am coming back here every time I get depressed, but it doesn’t come back. It’s not like I was never depressed again, you know, or never anxious again, but it never controlled me.
I had before it was controlling my entire life, the depression and I couldn’t function. I couldn’t hardly be a good friend, but I always got myself out of bed to go to work. That was a necessity, but I, when that thing lifted and it didn’t come back, wow! If God would do that for me, what else does he wanna do for me? And then I started thinking of other people and saying, “what else does he wanna do for other people”? There’s power in prayer in Jesus’ name, there is power. And to see it manifest is just really mind-blowing. Because I tried a medicine as well, is all these other things, I was trying to medicate it and it didn’t help.
It didn’t help. It just made me feel drugged. Didn’t make me delivered or free. And so I, I saw that you can be free and I’d tried everything to get free before I’d gone to psychiatrists and psychologists and counselors secular, and they kind of helped. They’re probably what kept me alive for so long, but it just, they weren’t the answer and I’m not putting it down for anybody taking medicine at all.
Believe me, I feel that that’s a gift from God in itself. To have that to relieve the pain or the symptoms that you have, but God is the one who can really make you whole, and it’s his spirit in you that changes you from the inside out? That was really an amazing thing to understand that there’s really power in prayer. And again, I don’t wanna discourage anyone from seeing a doctor or a counselor or anything, or take the medicine you need or whatever, whatever works for you. Let you know that there’s a deeper freedom you can have where you can really be set free from it.
Carrie: I think it really makes sense to me from a psychological perspective about people will say, sometimes that depression is anger turned inward and so we’re really angry still at your mother, understanding.
So for everything that happened there, and that was a stronghold in your life, there was some bitterness there. And then you had all of those insecurities about yourself.
Stormie: Yes.
Carrie: And so there may have been some of that anger towards yourself there that was stuck.
Stormie: That’s so true. And after I had that freedom from the controlling aspect of depression and anxiety, I had my first child, was born. All those feelings toward my mother, which I thought I’d work through. Forgiving my mother was an ongoing process. It would, wasn’t like one and done, forget it. It was every time you thought of something else that she did or you talked to her again and she would just attack you on the phone or, you know, that’s the way she was.
She was just, it wasn’t a normal person. She was just really lonely all of that came back when I brought my first child home and thinking, “What could a mother treat her child that way?” I couldn’t believe it. That’s the last thing I thought I would do anything like that. But then I began to see that there was stuff in me when I couldn’t get the baby to stop crying, it would feel like a rejection of me as a mother. I just felt like there was a monster in me that this, all this anger and hurt and everything’s coming back up again. And I couldn’t understand why I thought I was done with that, but it’s a process. And so I, I learned that I had to, when I started to get those feelings in me, I just had to put the baby down in the crib and just go into my room and get on my knees before the Lord and say, “God, just take this away”.
Take this horrible thing in me away that just rises to the surface in just almost a rage of anger and just, just all these horrible feelings you don’t wanna have. So that was a gradual thing. I I called the counselor, I finally told my husband what was going on. We talked to Maryanne the counselor and she said, “Just as long as the baby’s not in any danger”, he said, “Just keep doing that. Just keep asking God to set you free of it”. So certain things like unforgiveness is like a process,
Carrie: It is, it really is.
Stormie: You have to forgive something else would come up and you go, I just feel, I felt such a resentment for so long for her. Cause I felt like I, I started way behind everybody else cause everybody else taught and, and loved, you know, and, and taught things and, and taught how to live and how to be with people and stuff like that. And I did, I wasn’t, you know, and so I just felt resentful about that for so long, but I just kept forgiving her and forgiving her over and over and over. And because she was such a source of my depression and anxiety and hurt and sadness and grief and all of that. It’s just a those kind of things are a process.
You know, sometimes you can just get a deliverance that’s just instant, like set free from that, from that depression that day, which just, it just lifted like, wow! that’s amazing. But then the thing where all this stuff would come up when I was with my child and then I’m resenting her even more thinking I wouldn’t do, like anything like this to my child. Why would you do that to me? It was, it was ongoing. I’m telling you it was ongoing forgiveness until I thought it was free of it.
Carrie: I don’t really believe that healing comes in layers. Sometimes we’re only able to do that top layer and God knows that, you know, he allows us other things to come up.
Stormie: They do. And, and then the thing is to not get discouraged when that happens, when you think you’re free of something and all of a sudden you feel like it’s coming back, like it never, you know, you were never healed and not to get deceived by that or misled by that because he let you go down deeper. In your memory and your experience, you know, whatever is surfacing, it’s what you deal with.
Carrie: Right.
Stormie: You can’t do the whole thing, cause it’s so deep, but not to think that you’re going backwards, if that happens because it’s just a new level of freedom that God wants to lead you into. It’s gradual.
Carrie: And sanctification itself is a process.
Stormie: It is. It’s, you’re not totally 100% perfect. Right? From the first time you receive the award, not at all, it’s just where you’ve got you. Now you have the tools and you have a God who loves you and, and who wants you to get totally whole, and it, it is definitely a process. So I just didn’t want anybody to get discouraged when they think, oh no, it’s coming back.
So nothing happened. I, you know, I’ve never been set free and it’s not true. It’s a deeper level that God wants to set you free from.
Carrie: Absolutely. What would you say to someone who’s really praying and seeking to release their fears over to God, but still feel afraid and anxious? This sometimes can be a lifelong struggle for some people.
Stormie: I know. And I, the thing I found was that having some prayer power, having someone pray with you, it’s really powerful. Someone who has great knowledge of the Lord who understands what God has for us, who understands that He wants us whole, He doesn’t want us to carry fear. That’s paralyzing in my book, I have a book called The Power of Praying Through Fear and a lot of, you know, our depression and anxiety like you said, is caused my fear.
I mean, just the fear, of the unknown. The fear of something else happening. That’s like what has happened to you already? The fear of the memories coming back of some horrible thing that that’s gone on or something someone’s done to you or, or you’ve done to yourself or whatever, and just carries this guilt with those things.
For example, when you take a lot of drugs that really hurt your body and you think, wow! I’ve really ruin myself like, wasted my health and things like that. You can carry such guilt over that, but you can pick up right there and start right there to live in a way that blesses you and blesses your body and blesses your mental health and all of these things. And so that’s one of the most important things I think is remembering that even though you can struggle with fear in your life or like phobias, that which fear taken to the extreme. God says He doesn’t want us to have fear. He says, He’s given us love power and a sound mind, His love, His power and the sound mind He has for us.
And I remember having to say that over and over, God has not given me a spirit of fear.
Now, the spirit of fear controls your life. It’s not, I mean, everybody’s afraid of something, but when you, the fear controls your life, you know, it, you know, it, you feel like you’re almost paralyzed by it. It’s, it’s a horrible thing. And I had to keep saying over, over and over to myself, that God has not given me a spirit of fear. He’s given me his love, his power and the sound mind He has for me. I had to say that over and over and over until I got free of that. And the thing is I explained in my book that there’s good fear and bad fear.
Carrie: That’s true.
Stormie: God allows fear that leads you to Him. If it’s a good fear, it will draw you closer to Him. And if it’s a bad fear, it’ll separate you from God. It will cause you to try to handle things your own way or to not go to God, but to try to find help in, within yourself or within like I did with alcohol and drugs and Eastern religions and cult practices and things like that. So really important to know that God does not have fear for you. He doesn’t want you to be paralyzed by fear or controlled by fear. But if it’s fear that he’s allowing to get you on the right path or to keep you from going the wrong way, that’s a good thing. That’s a good thing. So you gotta ask the Lord, what is this fear? Is this a good thing? Is this gonna protect me? Or is this something I, that you want to deliver me from? And that’s really important to make that distinction between the two it takes asking him, saying, Lord, show me, show me.
Carrie: And sometimes we have a certain level of anxiety and we’ve talked about this in previous episodes where it’s like, you feel like God wants to do something big and it’s beyond you.
Stormie: Yes.
Carrie: And you feel a certain level of anxiety about it. I don’t think that I can fulfil my calling.
Stormie: Yes.
Carrie: What you asking me to do, but like you said, that leads you right back to him to say.
Stormie: Yes.
Carrie: Okay, if this is of you, then I need you to help me out with this because it feels really big.
Stormie: That is so right on. Absolutely right on hundred percent, because that’s where I felt. I felt I’ve been in way over my head for the past 50 years, because he’s always calling me to do something and I go, I can’t do that. I can’t do that. Get someone else, you know. And, and you’re right. Well, it causes you to be on your knees before the Lord saying, I can’t do this. You gotta fill me with your spirit, your love, your power, you all of these things that you are, God, you have to do this. I, I don’t even know where to start. And, and he does, its amazing. And, and the more dependent you are on the Lord, the greater He can do great things through you. I mean, the more he can do great things through you. So that’s, you’re absolutely right on with that.
Carrie: I’m curious if you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?
Stormie: Wow! I wish I could. Wow! it was so serious being with my mother. I could not see a way out. That’s why I tried to kill myself when I was 14. I couldn’t see a way out. I didn’t see how it could ever be any different. I would talk about the Lord and say, look, God’s got a purpose for your life. He’s put gifts in you and He will develop them if you surrender your life to the Lord. And, I just to be able to know that. There was a way out of this that it will get better.
I just didn’t see any hope at all, tried to make it work myself and I couldn’t do it. And so just to, to tell me myself that look, it’s gonna get better. You’re gonna find a way out of this. I’ve got a way out for you. And that would be the biggest thing. And just, to know about the Lord earlier, I never did. I mean, I never did until my friend Terry in the studio, talked to me about the Lord. I mean, she talked about, and from the standpoint, point of what he had done in her life, she wasn’t saying you need to do this. She was not like that. She was just showing me what her church was like.
I mean, just telling me, and when we have breaks, you know, on the record sessions and stuff, she’d just tell me, this is what we did in our church last night or yesterday. And, and it’s really powerful. You’ve gotta come sometime and just see how the Lord moves. And I kept saying well thinking, well, that’s really nice for her, but I’ve tried everything and nothing works knowing the Lord earlier, would’ve been great, but I’m so glad I did. I did that. She let you know, led me to her pastor and he helped me to understand who God was and who Jesus is and all of that.
Carrie: That’s the greatest gift that we could ever give to somebody.
Stormie: Yes, it really is. It really is the lady who led me to the Lord. She just died a couple of weeks ago and it was so sad. She had cancer, had found healing from it and then it all came back. You know how we hear that story?
Carrie: Sure.
Stormie: So if I hadn’t known her, I don’t know what would’ve happened to me beause I was planning a second attempt at suicide this time I was gonna make it. It was gonna work. You know, I was gonna take enough pills and to do the job right. And the fact that she intervened, she said, “I’m not, you can see you’re not doing well. Could just come with me to meet my pastor? What have you got to lose?” You know, she said, and I thought, well, you know, I’m not ready to get enough sleeping pills to end it. I might as well just go see what he has to say. And if she hadn’t done that, and if she hadn’t come, pick me up every week, every Sunday, every time for, I mean, for so long, I wouldn’t meet her today. Really, she was so selfless and so kind, and I was just so great that I’m so glad I knew her. And, she’s gonna be greatly missed by so many people. She saved my life, so grateful. , I told her before she died, I really hope that my mansion in heaven is close to yours.
Carrie: That’s really sweet.
Stormie: It was really touching. I was so glad I knew her for 44 years. She was a really close friend.
Carrie: Well, thank you so much for taking some time out today to talk with us. I think this is gonna be really encouraging and hopeful for our listeners who are struggling.
Stormie: I hope so. To anyone who’s listening right now, who’s struggling just with emotional pain and hurt and the things that happened to people and how they’re mistreated and or how they were abused either as a child or later on or whatever my heart goes out to them beause I know how hard it is, but I just wanna say there’s hope. There is hope to be free of it. It can happen, and it will just don’t give up.
Carrie: By the time this episode airs, I hope to be doing some more podcast interviews. I had done several during my pregnancy to stock up for when I was gonna be out on maternity leave. And now that I am back to work in the action, I hope to be interviewing more individuals. So if you have guest suggestions, you can always go to our website, @hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Fill out the contact form. And let me know who you would like to hear from, or maybe you are the one who has a story to share. You do not have to be a public speaker or author to be on the show. That’s not a requirement.
If you want to keep up to date with what’s going on with the podcast, make sure that you follow us on Facebook or Instagram. You can also sign up for our newsletter on the website as well. All the links you need will be in the show notes. And thank you so much for listening.
Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Courtney Reissig, a mom, author and speaker is joining me on the show today to share how God used the Psalms to prepare her for a traumatic and life-threatening pregnancy experience.
How Courtney started diving into the Psalms
Psalms as the language of the realities of life
How Courtney processed her emotions
How she worked through her trauma and what she learned from it
Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 62. I am your host Carrie Bock. And today, I am joined on the show by Courtney Reissig, author of Teach Me How to Feel. She’s written other books as well.
We were talking about using the Psalms in our spiritual journey without using the Psalms to connect with God and in prayer and meditation. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation.
Courtney, I know that you had a difficult experience that was traumatic for you and prompted you really to dive in, and study the Psalms, in more detail. Can you tell us about that?
Courtney: I had a traumatic delivery with my last son, and it was actually like a medical crisis, but I actually started diving into the Psalms about six months before that, and was truly interested in them and how they fit together and how, as I learned more about them, I realized the Psalms was giving us language for the realities of life.
It was so interesting at the time. But I didn’t know, that the Lord was using to preparing for what was to come. And so, I had spent that six months diving into the Psalms. And then when I was 33 weeks pregnant, I had a placenta abruption, which is the Medical crisis full abruption is sudden death for the mom and the baby, but mine was partial.
And so I was admitted to the hospital for three weeks as we waited for either to stop or for him to be needed to be delivered. Really, what happened to me. And that time was kind of hospital bed rest is really , really traumatic. I felt like everyday with a life or death situation with whether or not I was going to have to deliver him, whether we be okay. On those days, I couldn’t read anything. I couldn’t read the magazine people brought me, I couldn’t really watch TV, but I could read the Psalms.
And I spent so much time in the Psalms in those days, reading and processing and journaling about them. It’s not for I really start that I’m using the Psalmus. You’re not the first person who had walked through something that was life or death. And the Lord really met me there and showed me that He understood my frame and understood my struggle and was giving me language for what was going on.
Carrie: Yeah,So did you feel like, even though you could really describe like what you were feeling exactly. It was almost like when you opened up the Psalms, it, it really was like, oh yeah.
That’s, how I’m feeling right now.
Courtney: Yes. Oh yes. I mean, there are so many songs where I opened them up and was like, yes, that’s how I feel. I feel as though God has forgotten me. I struggled a lot and actually after he was born kind of that. And I struggled with guilt over that because, I lived and I had the best-case scenario, but I still had all of that trauma that I had to work through.
And even then I had a lot of darkness and postpartum depression. And even in that, the Psalms really helped me see that I was not the first person who had felt darkness or felt like God’s hand was against me or felt like I had sorrows in my heart all day or anxiety in my heart all day. So it really did give me words when I didn’t have other words for what we know.
Carrie: Um, that’s good. How did you process those emotions as they came up? Just, you know, feeling like God had forgotten you or maybe other concerns that you had, you know, sadness, anger, fear?
Courtney: Yeah. It’s really understand talking to your friend about how kind I processed it at night. And I, it took me a long time to realize that I’m an internal processor. And so a lot of people didn’t know that I was struggling for a really long time until like six months after he was born. I had shared that I was really struggling. I think for me, I just had to really work through my own thoughts in my own head.
And through writing, primarily for me is just a big way for me to internally process what’s going on, that was a big thing for me. I find that when I’m deeply, deeply struggling, that I’ve got to write to get it all out before I can never talk about somebody else, which I’m a natural born talker, which so people don’t think that that’s how I process.
They usually think that I brought those through talking about it. Cause everything, but when I’m really, really struggling, I work it through with writing and then reading. I didn’t have a lot of quiet moments. It was my fourth son by the time this happened. I had four children, four and under, there were no quiet moments.
My husband was really gracious and gives me time to process. And I will say too, I eventually did go to therapy and that was really helpful. I needed someone else outside of myself and outside of my circumstances to really kind of help me work through what we had walked through. And I still remember I canceled number of times that I had a really good friend who finally was like, I’m going to come watch your kids and you’re going to make that appointment.
Carrie: You thought, I don’t have time for this, or you were avoiding it because you knew it’d be uncomfortable to talk about?
Courtney: I think I knew I needed it. Like, I think I knew like deep down that I really needed just to like an hour, a week to sit and process. And I was gonna have that unless someone had given me that time.
Yeah. I think I was just like, I didn’t have the time. I just didn’t have the time or the energy. It seemed impossible to me. Yeah.
Carrie: Yeah. That was just really loving what your friend did to just kind of step in and say, They all l take care of your kids so that you can go take care of you.
Courtney: Right,and I think sometimes we’re afraid, I think as moms, maybe it’s women in general to kind of say I’m willing to do that, it feels too self-focused and we are kind of conditioned to be like, we’re always dying to self and I think we’re supposed to die to self. Because Christ, I just like drive to himself.
Carrie: Right.
Courtney: But we are also not God, you need help sometimes. And so, sometimes the most self-sacrificing that you can do is to help and you can help others. And I think, that’s what my friend saw in me is that I needed that so that I could serve and the way I was called to serve.
Carrie: I know some people, when they go through trauma and then they get to the end of experience, they’re like, okay, it’s over. I lived, I should be fine. Like, I shouldn’t be having those residual effects. Like, did you understand that it was. The trauma that was impacting maybe emotional experiences that you were having, or was it kind of like you learned some of that later? Like after the fact?
Courtney: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Cause I don’t think I understood that fully in the moment. And it’s been helpful since I’ve come to realize that I have that It’s helped me love my kids well through it, I had a few people in my life who understood enough of what we had walked through and had lived long enough to say,
Carrie: You’re going to have to be working through this for a while.
Courtney: It took me a while, like a few years to realize that there were these things that would happen. And I wouldn’t understand why I would all be dealing with it again, even it was in my mind seemed to be kind of unrelated. It’s only been as I’ve learned that I’ve learned part of the process of working through trauma is that eventually, I think hindsight now allows me to say, oh, I was not in a good place then, because that I’m in a better place now.
Carrie: Sure.
Courtney: Yeah, I don’t think I fully understood in that moment, but I’ve walked through the trauma scene. Then, so I was diagnosed with cervical cancer during COVID.
Carrie: Wow!
Courtney: Yeah, and I was really, really unexpected. All the markers to catch it, just kind of fell through the cracks for me. And, um, so I had radical hysterectomy really quickly because I had walked through the trauma with Ben. It didn’t make it easier and didn’t make it less traumatic, but it did make me more aware of what I was going to need to process what had happened. And the healing emotionally from that was better the second time around versus I just felt like I was blindsided by what happened with him.
Carrie: Right, right. Yeah. It’s interesting. Because so many times when we’re in survival mode, we are not aware that we’re in survival mode. We’re just kind of making the next day happen. Like, I’ve, you know, in your situation, it’s like, I got four kids and somebody is going to feed them.
Courtney: Right. And you don’t realize that you’re like deeply not okay. Like, you’re like a hair trigger away from like blowing up. And I’m thankful that the Lord brought me through it and then allowed me to give me some clarity to see so that I’m aware. I mean, trauma happens all throughout our lives.
Carrie: Sure
Courtney: And so I’m not naive enough to think it won’t happen again, but.
Carrie: What guidance, like you can give us on using the Psalms in our day-to-day prayer and devotional life?
Courtney: I’ve used them all different ways. Right now, my life, I’ve been really convicted over the last year that my prayer life is really lacking, it’s always been, like more of a struggle in my own life to just find, to be purposeful in prayer. But so many of the Psalms are prayers and written as prayers
Carrie: Yeah.
Courtney: And so one of the things I’ve done over the last year has been to pray the Psalms and just pray them based on whatever’s going on in the lives of the people. I’m praying for at the time or my own life.
I think that’s one way to use them is to use them as prayers. Many of them are prayers. I think another way to use them, is to read them when life is hard and read them to find familiar friends who also understand that life is hard. You know, I read them a lot when I was writing the book, I write them a lot.
When I was walking through this trauma, I read them a lot when COVID first started, because everything felt so uncertain and crazy. And I have found in every one of those seasons that the Psalms get the human experience. I think I’ve heard a Tim Keller, wouldn’t say. That part of his devotional reading is he reads, a Psalms everyday because we’re always walking through something that the Psalms understand because God is the author of the Psalms and he understands us. And so I think for anyone, it’s a really helpful tool. And seeing that we have a God who sees no matter what we’re walking through.
Carrie: Yeah, Just sense of relate-ability that we have to. I mean, it’s the human experience. It’s anger, it’s sadness. It’s uncertainty. It’s fear. And for me, I think it opens up and gives us permission to have a messy prayer life.
Courtney: Yes, absolutely.
Carrie: So just say, this is how I feel and it’s messy right now and I don’t care what’s going on in my life. Like it’s crazy.
Courtney: .Right, and I think sometimes we’re afraid just to be like that because we, depending on, like our theological tradition, we are so prone to wanting to have it all put together and to sound like we’re trusting the Lord and that everything’s going okay. And I think that’s the reality of the Psalms is that they’re not afraid of the struggles. And they kind of reorient us to acknowledge that.
Carrie: Hmm.
Courtney: Stop pretending that everything’s perfect and that we’re able to respond rightly to everything at all. Any given time.
Carrie: Yeah, the, we don’t have to have polished prayers all the time.
Carrie: Right? Yeah. I love that. Tell us about your book. Uh, “Teach me how to feel?”
Courtney: Yes, that book was born out of our experience with Ben and it kind of takes us through 24 different Psalms and walks through how the Psalmus experiences, the feeling, and then how this almost experiences God. There’s also a study guide that goes along with it to kind of help you add more depth to it.
If you’re trying to really kind of work through the Psalms, but the heart behind it was that a person who is walking through something could take any, could open up and look at any emotion that they’re feeling at any given time and find language for their struggle. There are short chapters. They’re designed for, like, if you’re walking through struggle, you need something
short and accessible.
There are a variety of feelings. There are happy ones like joy and forgiving and different ones like that. And so it’s not all sad songs, but it’s really intended to show you the breadth of the songs and the breadth of how God gives us language and the different struggles and joys and sorrows of life.
Carrie: Hmm. Good. How can people get in touch with you if they want to kind of find out more information?
Courtney: About the book?
Carrie: Yeah. Or just if they want to get in touch with you, um, do you do speaking engagements sometimes or?
Courtney: Yeah, I do. Um, I don’t do them as much as I used to, so COVID really slowed down what ended up speaking that I did. And then, um, it kind of gave us, like a little bit of a reset. Is this what we want for our season of life right now?
And so, I don’t accept a lot of speaking engagements throughout the year. I accept maybe like one or two outside of Arkansas where I live, and I’m also on staff at my church recently. So that takes up a fair amount of my time.
And I have a website that I. Should I update more than I do Courtneyreissig.com, but I feel an urge to write something. I primarily put it on Instagram, so it’s just my name. Courtney Reissig.
Carrie: Okay. Awesome. So when you were struggling, if you could go back in time, like what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?
Courtney: Hmm. That’s a really good question. So I would provide, to my younger self, I would say trust the long game. That’s kind of the thing that I would tell younger Courtney, is that what seems like an impossible thing right now, it seems like God’s not going to work that out for you right now. God plays the long game in life.
And so it’s kind of the message of someone, where the one who meditates on God’s word day and night is like a tree planted by streams of water. And what we know about trees is that they don’t grow overnight and transformation doesn’t happen overnight.
And so the life spent in the world. And what life spent trusting in the word made flesh Christ is one that grows over lifetime. And so that means that there are seasons like summer where everything is going really well and the trees in full bloom, and then their seasons, like winter, where it seems like nothing’s happening.
And I think I spent a lot of time in my younger, in my twenties and towards the end of my thirties now. So most of my thirties, not trusting the long game, not trusting that God was working, that God had a long-term purpose in view when He was working in my life or not doing anyone else.
I think it’s probably the greatest struggle of these younger people, in general, is we’re so instantaneous and that’s not how God works.
Carrie: Yeah, I think that’s so good. Just to have a little bit more for ourselves of an eternal perspective. What God’s doing right now, you know, we may not see the fruits of it for many years. Something that we’re investing in, you know, you could be investing in kids or teenagers and you may not see the fruit of the day to day what’s you’re doing until many years down the road, you know, or the difficulty that God’s bringing you through right now is the difficulty that you’re going to be helping somebody else walk through and 10 years. Right?
Courtney: Right, right. I mean, there’s in our own life. We’ve seen in just the last few months, an answer to prayer that we’ve prayed for 10 years.
Carrie: Wow!
Courtney: And I mean, that’s just a long time. And to be honest, like there’s, there was like whole years where I stopped praying for it, you know, because I just don’t think it was going to happen.
So I think that it’s the benefit of getting older is you get to see God work over the long haul that you don’t see when you’re younger.
Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. That’s good. Hopefully that encourages some, some younger people out there that are wondering why something isn’t happening right now.
Courtney: Right. Yeah.
Carrie: Well, Courtney, thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to talk with us about these things. And I hope it expands and encourages people’s prayer and devotional life, or if they’re going through a hard time to really just dig into the Psalms and see what God is going to show them and teach them through that.
Courtney: Well. Thanks for having me.
Carrie: I really hope you enjoy this episode on the Psalms. In a couple of weeks we have a really powerful interview about forgiveness that I wanted to share with you. So, if you’re struggling with forgiving someone in your life. You may wanna tune in, in a couple of weeks to that episode.
Just a friendly reminder that we have a couple different products on our website for sale. We do have some t-shirts. If you want to share the news and share your excitement about Hope for Anxiety and OCD. We also have an e-book on finding the counselor who is right for you. If either of those things are an interest to you upon over to Hope for Anxiety and OCD.com.
My assistant and I are also working on putting together a facebook group which will be an encouraging, supportive, positive place for hopefully to be able to connect with us and other listeners. But definitely be on the lookout for that.
Today on the show, I’m privileged to be interviewing Dr. Charles Page, a surgeon, author and speaker. Dr. Charles shares with us how he surrendered his sleep problems to God.
Why did Dr. Charles write a book about insomnia?
Christian worldview about sleep
Dr. Charles’s tips and strategies to beat insomnia and sleep better.
Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, Episode 51. I’m your host Carrie Bach, and we are covering all types of topics on the show related to anxiety. I have wanted to have someone come on and talk about sleep for quite some time. Because as we know, many people who struggle with anxiety deal with insomnia, and this topic is especially timely for me because I was up in the middle of the night, just last night, having a hard time going to sleep.
Carrie: So I am so glad that Dr. Chuck Page, a surgeon, and author of Surrendered Sleep is here to talk with us today. Thank you for coming.
Dr. Chuck: Well, great to be here with you, Carrie and I got up about three o’clock this morning, too. So are I share your pain.
Carrie: How did a surgeon come to write a book on insomnia?
Dr. Chuck: Well, that’s kind of a convoluted story. Let me make it short. My whole adult life I’ve suffered from sleep issues. Just the regular things that people face every day, the things that raise through our minds, our to-do list and all the woulda shoulda kudos of the day And then all the things that we are anticipating or worrying about it the next day.
So all of those things, but on another level, my whole adult life I’ve been an insomniac because I’m a surgeon. I’m on call all the time. I get called in the middle of the night, even when I’m not on call. Yeah, people call me at three o’clock in the morning to say, hey doc, what you’re doing? We just want to know that. Just want to see what you’re up to at three o’clock in the morning. So it’s been really challenging for me from that standpoint. Then on another level, I have sleep apnea, I didn’t even know it and I’m kind of one of those who do, as I say, not as I do doctors, I’ve kind of gone through this process of learning myself about sleep disorder.
So it kinda hits me in a lot of different ways. I think that’s kind of one of the take-home messages that I want your audience to really think about is that a lot of times its not just one thing. It’s multiple things that are hitting us as we lay our heads on our pillow.
Carrie: Yes. Physical and mental health things can be coming up at night.
Dr. Chuck: Yep.
Carrie: Yeah. So what scriptures have you found that speak to sleep specifically?
Dr. Chuck: Oh, my goodness. So there’s a lot. There’s a lot of scriptures that talk about it. So it’s interesting as I began to kind of deal with this, I began to realize how much the Bible has to say about sleep. It’s kind of funny. Most people don’t think about going to the scripture with their sleep issues, but you think about it, sleep was God’s idea. One of the interesting things, you being a psychologist, I know you face this, as a medical doctor, I face this. There are different worldviews out there.
Do you think about it? No one can explain sleep. I mean from a natural secular worldview thinking as it from an evolutionist, they don’t have an explanation for sleep or they have some very brilliantly stupid ideas that somehow, but from that worldview, they don’t have an explanation for why we go to sleep.
You think about it. Humans are unique because we sleep about eight hours in a 24-hour cycle, as opposed to elephants or giraffes, or dear me, nicely of about two hours. From an evolutionary standpoint, if you think about it from that worldview, you snooze, you lose. So it’s, it’s really hard to explain.
Now we know from a Christian worldview that sleep was God’s idea. So the scriptures have a lot to say about sleep. Yeah, can look at the Bible and say, okay, here are the 11th commandment. You shall sleep eight hours. I’ve read some books that people say, you know what God’s promised you and a good night’s sleep. There are not really any passages that say that. There’s no turn to the fourth book of sleep and we’re going to study this. I mean you have to kind of look at the Bible on a kind of a bigger picture to really understand what it says. The main thing is there’s a lot of attitudes that emerge for the circumstances that we’re facing.
So yeah, there’s a ton and I can just kind of go through all those, but just beginning with the first kind of a concept, sleep was God’s idea. We were created to sleep and I think one of the big ideas that the scriptures tell us and kind of fits in with the rest of our lives. One of the reasons I think that we were to sleep is because God really wants us to turn off. When you think about the creation story, starting in Genesis one. It’s a funny phrase, it says in the evening and the morning was the first day. And so it’s funny, we get it the other way around. We think, well, those day starts when the sun comes up.
When I get up in the morning, that’s when the day starts. No, from the Hebrew standpoint of the day, the day started when the sun went down and so they began their day with rest. That’s an interesting, different, very different perspective than the way we live in our modern culture. We can say, hey, we turn the lights off, and hey, goodnight God, I’m going to bed. I’ll see you in the morning. But actually, the scriptures talk about how God never slumbers or sleeps 120 seconds song. God never slumbers or sleeps that He is just as active and working in our lives as we put our heads on our pillow. That’s one of the great things I think to bring in that, that the Christian can bring into to rest is that, hey, whatever circumstances we’re going through, God’s got this.
So just kind of keeping that big idea that God is just as active as He does. He doesn’t go to sleep when we do. So he’s still working in our lives and I think that’s one of the first things to kind of understand about who got it.
Carrie: Okay. I always like to say God’s bigger than any problem that you’re going to face today, so we don’t feel like we can handle it, but it’s easy for God. He can handle anything. I know that we talked about this a little bit earlier, but worrying thoughts about our present life, sometimes just thoughts about the state of the world. It can keep us up at night and we’re taught in the Bible or pray about these things in order to receive peace from God. Have you found specific prayer practices or strategies helpful when you’re awake, either having trouble falling asleep or waking up in the middle of the night?
Dr. Chuck: Yes. I think we need to make whatever routine. I mean, once again, we’re personal beings and we each have a unique relationship with God for the Christian. But I think beginning your day in scripture and prayer, and just a time of just journaling or whatever you do, do that before you go to bed and do that in the morning and kind of sandwich your laugh into sleep.
And so one of the interesting things, so often the things that race through our mind and rob us asleep, I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience. But sometimes like, I’ll be thinking about a situation may be. Oh my goodness, I face things every day, all kinds of things and that theme begins to pop into my mind and I pray about it as I don’t even read scripture.
It seems like prayer and I give it to God and then five minutes later, it’s pop base boomerang back into my consciousness. It really plagues my slave. So one of the things I think that we often forget is the art of meditation. Meditation is so powerful. You guys talk about, cognitive behavioral therapy, think about the good things but it’s even from a scriptural standpoint. It’s a lot deeper than that. I mean, it’s not an Eastern meditation where we’re emptying our mind, actually, meditation is filling our mind. It’s kind of the law of replacing. So often when a competing thought or we’re worrying thought enters our mind, we can’t just take it out of our mind because it’ll boomerang back into our thinking.
We have to replace it and that’s where meditation comes in. For example, Philippians, everybody knows Philippians chapter four, it talks about, in everything, give prayer and in that verse, it talks about there’s anything good, anything noble, anything, think about these things. It’s talking about the art of meditation and I think that’s so key for us because as you show me your focus, I’ll show you your future, and as we begin to focus on the scriptures and begins to fill our minds with the good stuff. So that’s part and you can even go back to the songs.
For example, if you think about David, one of the songs is the fourth song. It was in the evening Psalm that David prayed when he was going through the toughest time of his life. This was when Absalom Salaam had usurped the throne and he was running for his laugh crossing, the Jordan river and people were and fingers at aim. It was just multiple stuff that was robbing his sleep. As he goes through this process, and it says in Psalm 4:8, I will lay me down in peace and sleep for you, Lord. Let me dwell in safety and so this process of prayer and meditation, I think is huge.
So, hey, have you ever heard of the hippocampus part of the brain? So it was interesting. No, it’s not an exhibited Azu okay. The hippocampus is a part of the brain for the audience. What the hippocampus does is the hippocampus take short-term memory and embed it into long-term memory. And so at the end of the day, our hippocampus goes to work. So as we’re sleeping, the hippocampus is constantly taking all of those memories of the day and it begins to embed them in our long-term memory and that’s why it’s so important. But back to your question that we stop and we begin to process those events that have happened during the day. I mean, it’s just so simple because if we don’t, instead of getting better, we’re going to get better, those bad experiences, we all have this stuff.
I mean, think about all the COVID stuff that everybody’s dealing with now and just these experiences and so being able to filter them through the scriptures and be able to process them, I think is very healthy. It talks about in Ephesians four, I think 26, it talks about, not to give the devil a foothold, but to deal with your anger before you go to bed. So I’m paraphrasing that, but so often we have these emotions that just, man, you probably never have those Carrie being a counselor, but people mad at me all the time, you killed a grandma, you didn’t do this. You didn’t or something didn’t turn out the way that I expected them.
When I have a bad day, I really have a bad day. So being able to filter those things in and deal with those emotions is huge. We have to let the natural processes of the way we were designed work for us. And so we don’t have to do much. I mean, the devil doesn’t have to do much when we’re not meditating and praying the scripture. So I guess that was a long answer to your question, but that’s what I do. I try to meditate. I try to read, I try to pray, do all those things. I think that’s what most people deal with. It’s called primary insomnia. Most people have trouble going to sleep.
Carrie: Okay. So what do we do for those of us that wake up in the middle of the night? Because that’s my problem. I normally do not have problems going to sleep. I can just ask out, but then when it comes to, I wake up with thoughts in the middle of the night.
Dr. Chuck: Well, good for you. That’s great and I don’t either, because usually, I’m so exhausted by the time I get to bed. It’s funny. They say those who sleep like a baby probably don’t have one, and I haven’t been my wife and I have such different sleep habits. So, I tell people I’m the best, get the best guy to see on the worst day of your life. My wife is the best person to see any day of your life. But for me, when I’m woken up in the middle of the night, one thing that I’ve learned to do many times when I’m kind of tossing and turning in my bed is take a step back and listen to God sometimes.
Those are opportunities that God is trying to get our attention. I think most of us and the culture that we lay, I remember going so fast during the day that we don’t have time to really stop and listen, and God wants to speak to us. And sometimes He has to, He has to wake us up and not to get our attention. And so you don’t think about that. You go back to study in first Samuel, the story of Samuel. He has a little boy and they’re at the table with Eli and he’s going to sleep, and God’s saying Eli, he gets up and goes. Samuel gets up and goes to Eli and back and forth all the time, and God’s trying to get his attention to give him a message and he doesn’t catch it.
I wonder how many times I’ve done and it’s actually an opportunity, to meet with God and think about what Samuel would have missed out on. He would have never stopped and heard the wind. That was the beginning of a series of steps that set the same direction. And so often when I’m waking up in the middle of night, just kind of keeping them in mind, God, are you saying something to me? And sometimes He’s not. I always try to keep a journal at the bedside because sometimes it’s something a thought will come into my mind and it may be just a random thought or it may be something that’s really something that God has woken us up to tell us. And so just to write it down and in the morning, you can look at it.
Now, the verse Psalm 7 talks about how God ministers to us, how the spirit ministers to us at night. And so looking at that and thinking about the fact that hey, this may be just something that God just write it down. How many times they’ll say him let’s sleep on it. Now I want to sleep on this message, maybe something very simple, simple about either or a person can pop into our mind. Somebody that we haven’t thought about a year. So the first thing, if you get up at night, get up and pray. Just like Samuel said, speak Lord for your servant is hearing. That’s in first Samuel three. A good rule of thumb, hey, got it. This may not be you, but it may bespeak for your servant is listening.
You’d be surprised and something, and even if we don’t have an answer, I think those times of fellowship become very precious to us, in the sense where we’re not losing anything by having those times of fellowship with God at night, when no one’s there, you can go through the Psalm 1:48. I think it talks about how God keeps me up at a meditated night upon God. And so just kind of thinking about that, it’s a very different perspective of sleep than we get. So it may be a divine appointment. You’re correct.
Carrie: It’s a good time to be quiet. The house is quiet. There’s not much going on. There aren’t really a whole lot of distractions, maybe that can, we can’t do too much. We don’t want to wake up other family members. So it is a good time to sit down, maybe in reading or praying. Sometimes I will get up and write and I’ll just type whatever’s on my mind and it’s kind of a brain dump in the middle of the night.
And I wonder if you know, I’m not, it’s some of those things that may be that I didn’t take the time or have the chance to process. Sometimes things happen, in the evening, like right before you go to bed, and sometimes that can really throw me off. Sometimes on Tuesday nights, we’ll have church director meetings via zoom and I’ll be thinking about what our pastor was talking with us about or upcoming church things that we have going on. I don’t always have a lot of time to process that before I go to sleep. I think I ended up waking up in the middle of the night.
Dr. Chuck: I think everybody who listened to this is going, yep, I get it. But one of the things you brought up Carrie, that I think is very important is journaling. I didn’t really realize this, but this book that I wrote about sleep was I really thought I was writing it for other people, but really in a sense, I was writing it for myself as my own way of dealing with the spiritual component of sleep. And I’m realizing that too, with the rest of the books that I’m writing, I mean, really. Journaling is a way that helps us process the events in our lives that I think is so productive. And if you know, if anybody in your audience has never tried journaling, get up and write, and you’d be surprised, you’d be surprised what just a little bit of introspection and thinking will do.
Carrie: You would be surprised at what comes out. A lot of times, one time I realized, oh, well, I’m worrying about something that’s the way in the future that I don’t have any control over. I was like, well, that’s not even close to where I’m at today. That’s really an opportunity for me to let go. You have lots of worries about the future. So how can, because your book is called Surrender to Sleep. So for people that, I mean, we have a hard time sometimes letting go of control. Let’s be honest. We want to try to control things that we don’t have any control over. That obviously creates a lot of anxiety. How do we surrender that over to God and not pick it up five minutes later?
Dr. Chuck: Wow. That is one of those million-dollar questions that, I think we all struggle with Carrie. I think surrender is a process, pass or disease go or just surrender, but it’s us thinking about that, it really is a process. It’s a stepwise process. It is an attitude. I think that we have to embrace this concept of surrender, control even as a Sergeant because I’m a control freak because even, in the operating room or patient, just the smallest thing can make a huge difference. And so, and it’s really hard to realize that control is just an illusion from an earthly standpoint.
And so realizing that if we do yield to God, God’s grace begins to empower us to be able to work more according to His plans and just release the outcome into what God wants. So surrender is huge and it’s I think a lifelong process that we go through. But once again, I think we were created, I think it’s just a reminder every day. If we were, God created us to surrender, that’s what sleep is about. It’s just, it really is. We have to let go and let God do for us what we can’t do for ourselves. What a picture of grace. It’s not saying not to minimize our responses, but yet to understand that we let go, God’s going to do some great things and so that’s what I’ve learned. That’s what my book is about. It’s just really changing focus. You show me your focus, I’ll show you your future.
And so if we focus so often we think about sleep, we think about, oh man, it’s 11 o’clock or three o’clock in the morning. I can’t sleep and I’ve got all this stuff to do tomorrow. And man, the male in our mind just starts working and we begin to worry and we began to meditate. We meditate on our fears and stuff. But if we change focus and we focus on our relationship with God, it doesn’t mean that God’s going to promise a good night’s sleep, but He will give us, we have to trust His sovereignty that even if we’re wake up and we’re tired, we’re exhausted, God’s still got that. I mean, God’s still going to give us the energy that we need to do the things that He wants us to do the next day. It is just a kind of bigger picture understanding of God’s grace in His work.
Carrie: I think you do bring up a good point there because we get stressed out after we’ve been awake for a little while in the middle of the night or after we can’t go to sleep, then we’re stressed about before now we’re stressed about not sleeping. Oh, I’m only going to get five hours, I’m only going to get four hours. I’m going to just try to go back to sleep this last hour before the alarm clock goes off and you get real trippy about it. So that definitely happens to a lot of people.
Dr. Chuck: But I’ll tell you something and that’s the thing about surrender. Sometimes it means that we sacrifice our sleep to help other people. And I have to do that a lot. I have to get myself up out of bed and go and go to the hospital or answer a phone call or whatever. And just having that attitude that, hey Lord, whatever tomorrow brings Your grace is going to be sufficient. They helped me through that and just keeping that perspective has really helped me a lot.
Carrie: Good. Well, we’ll definitely put links in the show notes to your website and your books and where people can find out more information. If they want to get the book. So at the end of every podcast, I ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.
Dr. Chuck: And thinking about this, Carrie, I just want to just leave you with a personal story. So, I’ve been practicing surgery for 26 years. I’m 54 years old and I’ve seen a lot of changes in medicine. It’s kind of funny, I’m becoming one of those old dinosaurs. So anyway, as health care has really changed in the past 10 years, I can’t say that I’ve always responded in the most positive ways.
A lot of bitterness, a lot of things, just a lot of stuff because there’s the way things should be and the way things are. And I think we all live with those kinds of attention. In our laws and once again, that’s something that keeps us up at not sometimes, but what’s interesting over the past several years, just realize it is that I’m going through a different season of life, that I had to make some decisions about my lifestyle.
And the biggest breakthrough I’ve had in the past couple of years is changing my lifestyle. I had to stop taking calls at the hostel. And as a surgeon, a lot of the ways you value yourself is how much work you do in the hospital. But it was a real step of faith for me is that I had to say, okay, good. I’m just not a 30-year-old guy anymore that can stay up three days and deal with stress and pressure. So as I began to say no to a lot of things, to stop being a doormat to the hospitals, and I know that sounds crazy, but as in my job, as a rural surgeon, I mean, they call me for everything. And so in taking a step back and letting go of some things, my sleep has gotten so much better.
Because like I said, it is multidimensional, as I’m getting fewer calls from the hospital in that I’m sleeping better. And then I’m able to focus on my mental health and my diet and I’m losing weight and I’m feeling better. I come home and not in my wife says, who are you married? So thinking about this, we live in this crazy nanosecond culture that’s constantly barraging us. And so getting back to the way that we were designed and created and getting along with God and cooperating with God. It’s not anything big. It’s not like a laser beam of holy spirit power helps me in, but just me and making some decisions to say, hey, this is just unhealthy.
And at this season of life, I just need, what’s funny is that God has provided for my family. I mean, I’m busier now and I’m not going into the hospital doing outpatient surgeries. And man, I just, I handle stress better. I have. People better and problems better, it’s just, my whole life has just changed.
I feel like I have a new lease on life and I’m a better doctor now than I was two years ago because I was so overwhelmed. And so what I want to encourage your audience today is to think about those things in their lives that they really need to change because so often sleep is just a symptom of a deeper problem in a deeper issue that’s going on in our lives. We didn’t even touch about medicine, but the medical problem, medical aspect of this, but go get, go get checked. I mean, you may have a med, you may have a sleep disorder, but just keep in mind that sometimes we focus on the little, the symptoms and not on the deep root causes.
And so for me, it’s been a big, just a change of my lifestyle, which has a real spiritual component has made a world of difference and I’m sleeping better now than I ever have. And I wrote the book in that crazy, do as I say, not as I do, but I wrote the book and I didn’t realize that it was just something so simple in my life that I needed to change. And it was an aspect of luck. We’ve been talking about it as an aspect of surrender said, okay, God, you’ve got this, I’ve gotta let go of this. I can’t do this. Like I did 20 years and so I think for me, that has been the biggest thing. And I want to encourage people to just take time and reflect and think about those things that maybe that God doesn’t want them to do.
And we just pile so much on our plate. We have no margin and I think so many of our problems are self-induced that’s what I’m learning is that I can let go. They all say in a clean conscious makes us off the pill, as you make those decisions. And this is one of our attitudes, have a wise heart and make those decisions in your daily life, you set yourself up for better sleep.
Carrie: I think that that’s excellent, really evaluating what we have on our plate. And do we need to have everything on here and ask God, okay, I feel like I’m doing too much, which of these things can I let go of, or take off my plate. And that is a step of faith for us because we’re so used to doing so much often. I think that that’s great advice for people to evaluate. So I know that you told me before we hopped on here, that you have some videos on YouTube and that people can learn more about these practices. And so we’ll put some links in there in the show notes as well. Thanks for coming on and sharing with us your wisdom in between procedures.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
