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80. Where Are Our Guests Now

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 80. Where Are Our Guests Now

Where are our guests now? To mark the Hope for Anxiety and OCD 80th episode, I’m giving you some updates on some of our past guests.

Some of them recorded their own updates and some sent us the update via email to read.


           

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 80. I thought it would be kind of fun to do an update episode where we hear where our guests are. Now, the podcast has been live for almost two years. Some of our guests are doing some new things that you might be interested in. And this also gives me an opportunity to remind you of some of the episodes that you may have missed and wanna go back and listen to.

Some of our guests recorded their own updates to put in the podcast and some sent us the update via email to read. I’ll start off by giving you several author updates. I mean, you always wanna keep up with the authors because of course they have written more book.

Holly Gerth

Holly Gerth brought us episode 19, Thriving as an Introvert in an Extrovert World.

This is truly one of my favorite episodes that we did because I wish I had understood intro introversion 20 years ago, as a young adult. I think it would’ve made just such a huge difference for me in understanding myself and how to navigate the world. Holly has written a devotional book for people, struggling with anxiety called what your mind needs for anxious moments that came out in September. And she’ll also be hosting, Breaking Free from Stress Worry and Anxiety Summit.

Peyton Garland

Peyton Garland told us the story of her O OCD diagnosis and treatment in episode 26. Here’s her update.

Peyton: Hey everybody. It’s Peyton Garland. I had the honor and the pleasure of being on the hope for anxiety and OCD podcast about a year, a year and a half ago. And I just wanted to hop back on here and let you guys know that there has been so much growth in my life. And you know, it probably sounds a little cheesy because hope is in the title of this podcast, but I’ve found lots of hope in the past year.

Since I last chatted with you guys, I have found hope and a little white better known as Zoloft. I am so thrilled that I have finally found a medication that seems to be a true miracle and is working so well for my brain. And also my soul. My husband and I just bought an old 1894 farmhouse in Tennessee on about 13 or 14 acres and, you know, OCD for me as someone who struggles with sensory overload.

I am so to finally seem to get some serenity and some peace and have just the quiet of nature to nurture my mind. And aside of that last time I talked with you guys, I just released not so by myself, my first book, and it was a memoir that dug deep into my, my big battle with OCD, you know, kind of pre-diagnosis.

The day I got the diagnosis and post-diagnosis and how to trudge through difficult seasons. Well, and I’m so honored to let you guys know that I have a second book releasing actually in about a couple of weeks, it’s gonna be called Tired, Hungry, and kind of Faithful, Again, diving into this concept that life is messy. Life is muddy, but it is so beautiful, even in seasons of hunger where you’re thirsting for more, where you feel that your faith and your hope are kind shoved in a glass that’s half. But there’s so much room to fill that cup. And, and it’s a cup that’s mid by God to overflow and yeah, a year later still strugg ling with OCD, but finding so much hope.

And I would love for you to check out my next book. It’s got lots of funny stories. My dogs are in this book as well. Lots of tidbits on my battle with OCD, but I think most of all, it’s just. The story of me discovering that there is true beauty from Ash and that that beauty from Ash is something that’s attainable for you as well.

So again, I’m so excited to be back on here and to tell everyone, Hey, life is full of light and hope amid the mess over in Peyton Garland’s world. And I’m so excited to catch you guys later.

Dr. Irene Kraegel

Carrie: Dr. Irene Kraegal who joined us for episode 16 on his mindfulness for Christians had a new book come out on August 2nd, published by Zondervan.

The book is a Christian mindfulness devotional for teens, also applicable for adults. Each of the 150 devotionals includes a scripture passage, a spiritual reflection and a corresponding mindfulness practice. Written guides for classic mindfulness based stress reduction exercises are included such as a body scan, sitting practice and movement meditations along with instructions for informal mindfulness practices that can be incorporated throughout each day.

The devotional also includes introductory and frequently asked question information about effective integration of mindfulness with the Christian.

Pastor Steve Hinton

Carrie: Pastor and author Steve Hinton joined us on episode 37 to discuss doubt and faith. This has been a popular episode in regards to downloads. So if you missed it, you might wanna catch up on that one.

Steve Hinton: Hello, Carrie let me just first say congratulations on reaching number 80 in your ministry and podcast journey. Wow. Your 100th episode is just around the corner. And Gary, I know that your work is encouraging so many people on my end. Well, I’m actually on an extended social media fast this summer, but I am gonna pick up my blog work again the second in September.

You know, social media fast might be a good idea for many of your listeners because there’s so much stress that we unknowingly allow into our lives. And that can’t be prevented by governing what we bring into our hearts and minds from the world around us. But I am planning to get back to the blog in September and I will do this.

I will send a free copy of the confessions book to the first person in your audience who leaves a comment or question in the blog post. When I kick back into it in September the kingdom.com blog post, in addition to my preaching role with a local church on the north side of Houston, I am working with a ministry designed to help foster soul care for pastors, which really is a vital need in our day and age.

I want you to know that pastors need encouragement as well, but again, you have done a wonderful job and, and I’ve been inspired by your podcast and my preparations to launch a future podcast, myself, keep going and as the British say, good show. Thank you, Carrie for all your work.

Carrie: Now we have a few counselor updates for you.

Dyana Robbins

Dyana Robbins: Hi, Carrie and Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast guests. I am Diana Robbins and I was a guest on the podcast talking about my experience, parenting special needs, and children who struggle with anxiety. Since that podcast aired. I have moved back to the United States from Singapore and I’m working as a licensed professional counselor and group and private practice in Texas,

My specialty areas are trauma and grief recovery. I am also developing a program entitled building resilience and parents of exceptional children. For my doctoral dissertation. This program will provide information, support and counseling interventions to help parents thrive at every stage of parenting special needs children.

This month, I have also been a presenter at the trauma and mental health conference where Christian leaders from many fields provide guidance in helping those affected by trauma. You can learn more about my work and contact me through my website dianarobbins.com. That’s D Y A N A R O B B I N s.com.

Thank you, Carrie, for the opportunity to connect with your important work and with all of your listeners. God bless you all.

Lindsey Castlemen

Carrie: You may remember Lindsey Castleman from episode 22 welcoming parts. We don’t like where she introduced us to ifs therapy and told us a sweet story of hope about adopting her son.

Lindsey would like everyone to know that she is doing well. She’s currently the director at the Counseling Center at Fellowship. She supervises marriage and family therapist and has a group practice. She says she’s very proud of the team that she gets to work with and is thankful for all of the opportunities that God has brought her way.

Aron Strong

Lindsey introduced me to Aron Strong of Pathways Counseling in Murphysboro, Tennessee, who brought us episode 29 on God, Feelings and Theology. This was a great episode where we discussed how God has feelings and created us in his image to have feelings as well. Pathways Counseling in Murphysboro has grown adding three additional full-time therapists for a total of nine therapists and graduate interns.

They’re also beginning the process of launching a new location in Mount Juliet, Tennessee. Lindsay and Aron both have an organization called In Relationship and they would like you to know that they have, in addition to their marriage intensives, In Relationship has also created a day and a-half marriage workshop for churches and organizations called Being With. They also have online courses for therapists and Christian counselor member groups. In Relationship has its own podcast.

And they’re excited to announce that they’ve been working with Bridgestone on writing a series of four trainings on empathy and relational engagement to help create work environments in their Firestone stores that employees won’t want to leave. So that’s very exciting for them. Now I’m going to share some updates from organizations and individuals who support people with anxiety in some way.

Dr. Katie Aitken

Carrie: In episode 45, Dr. Katie Aiken joined us for improving nutrition to help anxiety.

Dr, Katie: Hi, Carrie, and the Hope for Anxiety and OCD community. Congratulations on 80 episodes. I’m sure these conversations have helped so many Christians with anxiety and OCD find more connections. Since we’ve spoken, I’ve released the audiobook version of my book, Create, Calm, The Professionals Guide to Overcoming Anxiety from the inside Out. it’s on Audible.

I know how much you love listening to practical guidance on managing anxiety at home. And this resource has all my best tips. The section on connection, where I share how my faith cultivated my self worth might be something that you would enjoy. It’s been great to connect with you, Carrie. Best wishes for your next 80 episodes

Cat Sharp

Carrie: On episode 46, cat sharp brought us Combating Emotional Eating with scripture.

Cat: What an honor, it is to be a part of this special episode. Carrie, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to update you and your listeners on how the Lord is working in my life. Over the last few years, my business has been primarily focused on helping Christian women overcome the traps of emotional eating and binging.

But recently the Lord has been calling me to teach more about what discipleship means and what it looks like in different areas of our lives. So I’ve been partnering with other Christian teachers to create the everyday disciple virtual summit together. We’re tackling topics of parenthood, forgiveness, finances, work, and, and so many more.

And we’re taking a look at what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in our everyday normal lives. The summit and working with these teachers has been such a blessing for me personally. And of course, as our heavenly father does, he has been challenging me in some new ways. So I’m really excited to share the summit with you and your listeners.

If you would like to learn more, please go to cat sharp.com/summit. The summit is free of course. And if you happen to miss this one, don’t worry. We’re gonna be doing another one. I just don’t have the dates for that yet. Again, thank you, Carrie, for allowing me to be a part of your amazing podcast in the way that you serve others.

Alexa Hulsey and Trey Brackman of Encircle Acupuncture

Carrie: We covered the topic of acupuncture on Episode 23 with Encircle acupuncture. I really wish that they were closer to me. It was near my old office and I miss going to acupuncture. It is so relaxing. Trey and Alexa have an update for us.

Alexa: Hi, this is Alexa Hulsey from Encircle acupuncture.

Trey: And this is Trey Brackman from Encircle acupuncture

Alexa: So Trey, what have you been up to?

Trey: Well, I have surpassed my 10-year mark here at Encircle Acupuncture, continuing to help my wife raise three great kids and continuing to do community acupuncture that I love. How about you? What have you been up to Alexa?

Alexa: Well, I am continuing to see patients here at Encircle. We’ve celebrated our 12 years of treating patients and I have also been blogging. My blog notes from your acupuncturist, which you can find on substack and write about all things related to acupuncture.

Trey: That sounds awesome. It is. And you have recently been on another podcast. I was on Sebastian’s finest hour and we talked all about acupuncture and community acupuncture.

It was really a lot of fun. I would do that again.

Alexa: Awesome. So check out Trey on Sebastian’s finest hour and notes from your acupuncturist on substack. Thanks.

Kelly Ehlert

Carrie: Kelly Ehlert is a pelvic floor physical therapist who joined us on episode 20 to discuss overcoming sexual anxiety and dysfunction for women. She’s also in middle Tennessee.

Kelly would like you to know that she’s collaborating with an acupuncturist and functional medicine provider to help women solve underlying issues for some of their physical symptoms and are offering a collaborative program with the three of them treating the individual. They’re currently calling this the purple duck pack, finding the right provider and creating overall health for mental, physical, and emotional wellbeing on her website.

Kelly has some free resources for returning to work postpartum and free screens for considering when to see a pelvic floor, a physical therapist, to determine if her niche is a good fit for them as someone who just had a baby. I really appreciate all that pelvic floor physical therapy has to offer. In helping women recover their bodies after birth.

Jeff Allen

Carrie: We had a few guests share their personal stories with us, fellow podcaster, Jeff Allen who’s also the host of Simple Mental Health shared with us his story about discovering he had anxiety on episode 32.

Jeff: Hi, Carrie, thank you so much for reaching out and giving me an opportunity to speak again on your podcast and congratulations on 80 episodes. That is quite an accomplishment, especially when you are coordinating all the interviews and giving people such valuable content.

Thanks for all that you do. I just wanted to update you and tell you a little bit about what’s going on with. I recently found out that it’s not just an anxiety disorder, but I have been diagnosed with something called cyclothymia, which is basically a really mild form of bipolar. Been treating it with medication and goodness. I can’t tell you what a difference that has made in my life.

I’m blessed to have found a psychiatrist that has worked with me so well. And given me the opportunities to treat what’s going on with me also, I have been promoted at my job recently. I’m the online site lead for the gathering, which is a church in St. Louis, Missouri recently wrapped up the third season of my podcast, Simple Mental Health. If anybody wants to check it. Simple mental health on all the podcast platforms. Check it out. Thank you so much for all that you do, Carrie. I can’t wait to continue to listen and ride along with you as you continue.

Jennifer Harshman

Carrie: This podcast journey. Have a great one last but not least.

We have an update from Jennifer Harshman who talked to us about her abuse story. Why did God Allow me to go Through That on episode 47.

Jennifer: In the time since I shared with you part of my journey, I achieved a lifelong dream of having a swimming pool.

I started a TikTok account in late June and all along. I’ve been busy serving others who wanna make a difference. You can hear all about all of the ways. If you go to harshmanservices.com, sign up for any of the free goodies you want while you’re there. There are two things that I’m doing right now that are the most exciting one is your book bakery, making it easy to write a book, which is a book I wrote, it’s coming out September 1st. And it goes with a program that I’ve been running for a few years, where I walk you through the process of writing a helpful nonfiction book. All you need is the right recipe, and you can do this. The other is editor’s school, where I teach you how to become a freelance editor and build a solid income.

I’ve been helping people since 1992, and I love helping people make dreams come true. You deserve it.

Carrie: Jennifer, congratulations on the pool. That is a great life goal. And who knows? Maybe I might get around to writing my book someday. It’s truly been a blessing and a privilege to interview all of these guests and provide this valuable information for you.

Podcast Updates

Carrie: Since I have updated you on our former guest, I also wanted to update you on what is going on with my counseling practice, By the Well Counseling. I have made the decision to keep my business online for the time being while my daughter is young. However, I have. Insured office space for intensives to focus on doing those on Fridays, I was trained in the flash technique for treating trauma this year.


I also have an upcoming training on something called Blast and in November. I’ll receive additional training for working with OCD via EMDR. I’m excited about just continuing to learn and continuing to grow as a professional each and every year, I continue to be amazed and blown away at how many people are finding the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast.

I have been on several other podcasts to promote this one, which is a great way for people to find out about the show. Of course we also have our social media marketing that we work on just putting up posts on Instagram and Facebook for people who are following us there. According to Google, our website is showing up more and more in Google searches.
So that’s really exciting to me not because I want to have a podcast following. I don’t really care about that. I am excited because it means that more and more people are accessing just messages of hope and knowing that there’s a variety of treatment options available for them. And then if one doesn’t work that they don’t have to be pigeonholed into that treatment.

They can seek other treatments outside of that. That’s one thing I’m super passionate about especially for people who are struggling with OCD and have been told, there’s only one treatment for them. I have many hopes and dreams for the podcast that I thought I would go ahead and share with you. It feels actually like a little bit vulnerable to do this because I don’t know if any of these things are going to actually come true or not.

My big girl dream is to start a nonprofit organization that helps people get the mental health treatment that they need by matching them with an appropriate provider, making sure that financial barriers are removed if they’re not able to afford counseling or afford their copay. I know that there are a lot of great resources, great counselors out there.

And unfortunately seems like finances often get in the way of people getting the very specified. Specific help that they need, because there are so many different types of therapies and ways that therapists practice. It’s hard for people to find what it is that they actually need. So that’s my big girl dream that we’re miles and miles away from, and I don’t know if it will ever come true, but I just said it out loud to you.

Another passion of mine related to the podcast is I would love to get some self-help materials out into the hands of specifically Christians who are looking for help with anxiety and OCD. This could be a great precursor to people coming to counseling, or as a supplement for people who are already in counseling. I’m not exactly sure for me, if this looks like an online course, a workbook, audio, relaxation, or maybe a combination of all of things. I’m not really sure, but it’s something that I hope to be, have time and be able to take some time to work on between now and the end of the year. Doing every other week episodes has really been super helpful and much less stressful in this season of life.

So thank you for all of those of you who have kind of like held on with us this year, in that transition of going from weekly episodes to every other week episodes. Since there are so many new people finding this show, I think it’s actually a good thing in both ways because many people don’t listen every week or, you know, don’t have opportunity to do so. I absolutely love hearing from our listeners and I would love any support communication. If you want to be involved in a beta launch of a course or a workbook, definitely reach out to me via our website. Hope for anxiety and ocd.com. And I’ll kind of put all of those emails together.

I’m always writing about things like this first to our email audience. Anyway, if you’re not on our newsletter, be a good time to get on there and just keep up to date. If you’re interested in any of the self-help stuff, mostly I just let you know what’s going on with the podcast and things that I’m offering. I am going to keep on to the best of my ability, continuing to help Christians who are struggling with anxiety and OCD.

I’d like to ask If you would pray and consider supporting our podcast, you can do that via Patreon through monthly subscription, or one-time gifts can be sent through the website, Buy me a Coffee.

Those links will be in our show notes. There are a variety of expenses that go into producing a podcast, such as, you know, website hosting, editing. And I just really appreciate if you would consider supporting this because as I really view this as my ministry to reach people all over the world who are Christian and struggling, not everybody has access to counseling services where they’re at, unfortunately. People just need this positive support, hope and encouragement sometimes to keep going.

Thank you all for listening to the podcast today. I appreciate each and every one of you who take the time to tune in.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Bonus Episode: EMDR Intensive Therapy Q&A with Steve Bock and Carie Bock, LPC-MHSP

Carrie and her husband Steve are excited to bring you a bonus episode on EMDR Intensive Therapy. 

  • What is EMDR Intensive Therapy and what are the issues it can help with?
  • What happens in an EMDR Intensive Therapy session?  
  • How long does the session usually last?
  • How to receive EMDR Intensive Therapy?

If you want to find out more about intensive therapy, go to https://www.bythewellcounseling.com/intensivetherapy/

Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to a very special episode of Hope for Anxiety and OCD. This is a bonus episode that I wanted to get out to you earlier than putting it kind of in the lineup. Since we have several episodes that are already planned out for the next couple of months. And I have my amazing husband, Steve here with me. Say Hi Steve.

Steve: Hey

Carrie: Glad to have you here. You interviewed me once before on the show for episode 33 of What it’s like to be a Counselor. And I thought it would be good for you to interview me on our today’s topic, which is EMDR intensive therapy. Since it’s something that you’re not familiar with. When I get in the zone and tend to talk about therapy things, I don’t tend to always explain them for the lay audience to understand and break it down very well. So I thought it would be good. And you can ask little filler questions here and there that people might be wondering about, or you might be wondering about.

What is EMDR Intensive Therapy

Steve: Okay. My first question is what is an EMDR intensive therapy session?

Carrie: This is a session that is longer than a typical therapy session. It occurs either for a half day of three hours or a whole day, which is six hours with a lunch break and some small breaks in between it’s for a very specific purpose.

So someone that’s trying to achieve a very specific counseling. It may be that they know, for example, that they’ve experienced some sexual abuse that is getting in the way of their relationship with their spouse. Now it may be a situation where they’re trying to overcome a phobia or a situation where maybe they just know they have a lot of trauma.

They’re going to need to process in a sense, kinda wanna get a kickstart to that process. Another way we use an intensive therapy session for say anxiety or even possibly OCD is to work on some day-to-day level coping skills that people could use as maybe a baseline for them. So it doesn’t have to be used to process trauma.

The idea behind it is to have dedicated time and dedicated space to work on a very specific issue.

Steve: A long therapy session that seems like it might be kind of exhausting.

Carrie: It can be tiring, but it just depends on how you break up the day. Usually what we’ll do is we’ll have kind of a introductory period.

So to explain a little bit deeper, these are situations where I may have been working with someone for. Session a few sessions and they make a decision to do an intensive, or it could be that somebody wants to travel in from out of state and do even multiple days with me, which I would just have to make sure that I had all of the office space available during those days and times.

If people are traveling in and I haven’t met them before the structure, obviously of the day is gonna be a little bit different because there’s going to be a chunk where we’ll have to do a little bit of more history taking kind of getting a clear picture of the problem. Then we can go in and make an EMDR treatment plan.

Basically identifying what memories we need to target that are contributing to their present-day issues. When we go back and we reprocess those memories. In EMDR, we look at the past and then we look at how that’s affecting and present, and then how that person would like to respond in the future.

Typically, with a more condensed intensive session, we would probably process the worst memory that came up on that treatment plan. And the first memory that came up on that treatment plan, sometimes those end up being the same memory. If it’s a more recent traumatic event, we would structure it so that we would really just be focused on that recent traumatic event.

There’s restricted protocols with EMDR to help you process more like within the past month type of trauma. If we were able to get someone in that quickly, So there’s lots of different ways that we can structure it with, uh, phobia, for example, we can structure, you know, starting with, when did the phobia first occur process?

You know, usually like if, if somebody was bit by a dog, for example, when they were a child, they’re afraid of dogs, now we could go back and we could target that memory where they bit by the dog. Then we can look at potentially exposures and desensitizing the present triggers. So we could show them a picture of a dog.

How to stressing is that to you do some EMDR surrounding that as a present issue, we could, you know, show them a video of a dog. There’s different things that we could kind of target. I probably wouldn’t have a live dog, but, you know, I would encourage at some point or another, eventually, them working up to that process as kind of gradual exposure.

It’s kind of a little bit hard to get a live dog in a counseling office sometimes, but you understand where I’m coming from. There’s so many different ways that we can approach things depending on what the person’s presenting issue is. For example, panic attacks. If someone had a history of panic attacks that they would like to focus on resolving, we can often process their first panic attack and their worst panic attack, their most recent get that done in one day. And that will show significant symptom relief for them, preventing them from having future panic attacks.

Steve: Why did you decide to start offering intensive therapy?

Carrie: That’s a really great question. I was actually encouraged by two of my mentors. One of them was Laura Mullis who we had on the show on episode 21, Healing from Childhood Wounds: The key to Unlocking Anxiety. Laura, as well as one of my other EMDR mentors, Alice Strickland had really asked me, first of all, was I doing intensive therapy? And then if I wasn’t interested in doing it because sometimes they have cases they may not be able to take on or might not be the best fit for them that they may want to refer to me. So that was part of it. And the other reason was after doing a few with my clients, kind of during the COVID period online, I did some three-hour sessions with clients where we took kind of a 15-minute break in the middle to target very specific EMDR memories that they wanted to work on.

There’s a few problems that can come up, like in terms of weekly therapy, someone comes in and they may really wanna work through certain issues in their life. But then as we know, like life just happens, you know, then they come in next week and something’s happened with one of their kids or their coworker was really mean to them. Or, you know, somebody went off on them as they were driving their car. I don’t know. And they just feel like, okay, I need to really process what was going on in the present.

A lot of times we can tie that back into how that was a trauma trigger and sometimes work through some of those things. And that can be very helpful. Oftentimes, what I see is that we end up delaying the EMDR treatment process because a lot of times we’re having to go back and forth between working on these present issues and then working on past issues.

If we can devote specific time to working on the past issues. A lot of the present issues will be resolved because they won’t continuously be getting triggered by the same stuff over and over again, in these challenging relationships or situations. So much of therapy too is spent on helping people develop skills to manage their day-to-day present.

And like I said, if we can go back and just kind of clear out some of the junk, there will be less that they have to manage in the present, not to say that they won’t have anything. Going on, but at least it’ll get the symptoms maybe more to a manageable level. Once the trauma is resolved. So it’s really a combination of a couple of different things.

Sometimes another issue that we have in terms of processing memories with EMDR is that we will take some time at the beginning of the session to get the client into the memory to say, okay, now, as you bring up that memory right now, how distressing is it? Where do you feel it in your body? Even before we do that, the client will come in. They’ll say, “Well, you know, I had, after last session I had a nightmare” or they may be updating me on symptoms. Either of the symptom got better or symptoms got worse. That’s helpful for me to kind of know and guide the process as to where we need to go to next. That takes a little bit of a chunk of time, say that takes 10 to 15 minutes. And then at the end of the session, we really wanna make sure that people have time to calm down that they have time to contain, especially if they didn’t finish processing the memory. So then we’re taking another, you know, let’s say 10 minutes to say, “okay, like, you know, kind of ground, put your feet on the floor, take a deep breath, contain the memory.”

No, it doesn’t have to leave you here. When you walk out the door today, go to your safe place, whatever. There’s a lot of different ways we can do that. But the point is, is that we’re taking that chunk of time in the beginning of the session. And we’re taking that chunk of time at the end of the session, whereas in an intensive, you don’t have to do that because you’re not having those times in between sessions.

You’re actually saving time and energy and not interrupt that trauma work because the brain doesn’t know, “oh, wow. I only have about, you know, 30 minutes to work through this.” Your brain doesn’t know that. So it’s gonna kind of continue to be working on things even after that session is over, which can sometimes be distressing for people.

What are the Issues EMDR Intensive Therapy Can Help with?

Steve: Okay. What are some of the issues that you’ve seen be helped by intensive therapy.

Carrie: I talked about some of them previously, things like phobias, panic attacks, very specific recent trauma, definitely anything that we would consider to be a single incident trauma, not like, you know, I’ve had a whole lifetime of childhood, but Hey, my childhood was pretty stable and things were going well.

And then this thing kind of just completely shifted me off track, near-death experience or illness, injury, car accident, things like that. I know that you and I had talked about, even my experience in episode 10 of really building up the confidence again, to be able to go out dating after my divorce, I had had quite a bit of therapy and there were just kind of some lingering remaining things that I needed to process through. And I really needed to do that from a somatic body sense, rather than just talking about it because I had already talked nausea about it. So that’s another area. Theoretically, I could have done an intensive on for myself. I didn’t, but I went at probably 10 sessions had I had an intensive opportunity.

I might have been able to get that, that work done and say probably two days, you know, instead of 10 sessions over, I was probably going every other week. So you think about that if you’re going every other week to therapy too, that’s about say five months that it took me to get through that process. I know.

A lot of times, people are very interested in today’s day and age of getting better, and faster. We have such a microwave generation. This can be good and bad. Sometimes these situations work and you can find relief faster. It’s not for every person or every situation, but as you can see, there are lots of different ways that we can apply the intensive therapy model to help people get relief. Another example would be for someone who’s having difficulties setting boundaries. Oftentimes this relates back to either like very strong authoritative personalities in their childhood or just people were straight up abusive and crossed their boundaries.

So if we can go back to those places, help them process through that realize like, you know, you’re not a child in this dynamic anymore. This is an adult-to-adult dynamic. You have a right, like your needs are important, whereas they weren’t important. Then your values and your desires are important. And you have that takes a certain level of self-confidence to set a boundary, right. To be firm with. So that is something that we could target in an intensive, really like creating a treatment plan surrounding the difficulty with setting boundaries. A lot of times I see people who have emotional trauma that is feeding into disordered type eating, even though I don’t work with eating disorders.

So I kind of wanna make that clarification if you have serious eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia that I’m not saying that this type of intensive therapy is for you, but for people who, for example, would say, “Hey, I’m an emotional eater. I really want to eat healthy. I’m trying, I may have been on every diet under the sun. But just the way that I grew up, there was a lot of shame surrounding food, or there was even abuse situations involving food resolving.” Some of that trauma will shift the way that people approach food in the present. That’s one, depending on how much is back there, they may need a little bit more than one day. It just kind of depends. And we have to create a plan together. I think that’s, what’s really important. Intensives is having a very specific plan and intention that the client and I are both on the same page about what they’re wanting to accomplish so that there’s no confusion and that we stay very focused and targeted for that limited amount of time.

Steve: So who would not be appropriate for intensive therapy?

Carrie: If someone has a serious problem where they may need a higher level of treatment, such as a serious addiction, addictions are typically not something that I worked with. I’ve worked with a lot of people who had an addiction in their past, say a few years ago, and they’re trying to resolve the trauma that led to the initial addiction.

I do work with several clients that have experienced that, but we really want people who are clean and sober to be engaging in this work. I mentioned eating disorders. If somebody has a really serious eating disorder and where they need to be in some kind of hospital or treatment program, if someone finds that they’re dissociating a lot, they’re disconnecting from reality due to their trauma.

They’re losing a lot of periods of time or they don’t have any connection to their body or their emotional experience. Now I will say that if there’s a client that’s really having difficulty connecting to their body or to their emotional experience if they wanted to do an intensive, what we would really focus on is not processing the trauma, but we would more focus on developing that body awareness, developing that emotional awareness. Doing a lot of what we would call resourcing activities, which would be trauma preparation that may be incredibly valuable for that person to do that, and may help them really cope better in the present with that. But I wouldn’t say that they need to come in and, and just start processing trauma because they’re not gonna be able to do that.

You really have to be connected to your mind, your body and your emotions in order to benefit from EMDR, having. I’ve worked with a ton of clients that don’t have all of those things online. And so our first step in therapy is really building those up before they can go through and process trauma. If somebody has a personality disorder or something just very serious going on, then they’re probably not appropriate for intensive therapy.

Steve: And my last question is, are these covered by insurance?

Carrie: They are not. We don’t have a code for this type of intensive therapy session that we could code for insurance. I actually even asked Cigna the insurance that I work with and they, you know, I’m sure if we were sitting face to face, the lady would’ve looked at me, like I had four eyes.

I was trying to explain it to her, but she was just kind of like, “No.” They are used to typical things like individual therapy, group therapy and things that there are codes for. This is not something we can code and charge insurance for. It’s really more for someone who is looking to make an investment in their mental health and they, they know kind of what they want.

And they realize that this pathway is going to save them, you know, time, energy, and money. It’s hard for people to. Sometimes to coming to weekly therapy, they may get started with it, or they may start coming every other week and then childcare becomes a problem or work is adding on more responsibilities.

I can’t get off in time. There’s all kinds of barriers that can happen in terms of people getting the therapy that they need on a consistent ongoing basis. Sometimes there’s certain time limited situations where someone will say. I know I’m going to be moving or going out of the country. And I know this is some, or I’m getting married.

This is just something that I know I wanna resolve before. Maybe a major life event happens as well. And so these people are kinda willing to take that leap and invest in this process. And so also just really great for people who have had a lot of therapy, haven’t been able to get their goals achieved that they wanted to, but feel like this would be something that would help them just as a different approach.

Thank you, Steve, for helping me out by asking some of these questions and allowing me to explain intensive EMDR therapy.

Steve: Yeah. You’re welcome. And glad to be here once again. And it’s actually really good for me to hear that I got to learn something, so it’s good.

How to Receive EMDR Intensive Therapy

Carrie: Yeah. And if people would like to find out more about intensive therapy, they can go to www.bythewellcounseling.com./intensive therapy. If you get to the homepage By the Well Counseling, there’s also a button that you can click on for intensive therapy. There’s a form on the webpage that I’ll ask that you fill out in order to be able to, for us to have a, hopefully, a short video chat, where we can have a consultation, where we can talk about what you’re hoping to get out of the intensive, and I can share whether or not I think that that would be appropriate for you.

It’s really important that we’re able to make sure that you’re gonna be getting what you need from this modality if you’re investing the time and money in it. So I want to take a little time to make sure that that you’re appropriate and that this is appropriate for you kind of, as we talk through some of those things.

One thing that I’m really excited about with this intensive therapy opportunity is that I get a lot of inquiries from the people who listen to the podcast and they say, “Hey, I know that you do online therapy. Can you see me?” But they live out of State. They may live in Kentucky or Connecticut or wherever, and I can’t see them online due to licensure laws and limitations. I’m only licensed in Tennessee right now to see people there. So this will allow people to be able to travel if that’s something that they’re interested in and receive therapy from me. So that was kind of another contribution of why I wanted to do this, that I didn’t mention. Earlier, thank you so much to everyone who is listening to this podcast right now, I will tell you the very first people who heard about the intensive opportunity were our email subscribers.

And Steve, why should you get on our email list for the hope for anxiety and OCD podcast?

Steve: We’re giving away. T-shirts

Carrie: Yeah, Steve, it was actually your idea to start giving away t-shirts to encourage people to subscribe to the podcast newsletter. So since we have currently, as we’re recording 73 email subscribers, I want you to help me pick our first t-shirt winner by people who’ve already subscribed to the newsletter.

So pick a number between 1 and 70.

Steve: I’m gonna go with 14. It looks like Lisa D is our winner. Congratulations, Lisa!

Carrie: She is our 14th email subscriber. I will be emailing Lisa to let her know that she has won a t-shirt and once I get her size and address back, we will go ahead and ship that out.

You also get to pick which color shirt that you want. And if you are not a t-shirt winner this time, because you are not subscribed to our email list, then hop on the email list. We don’t have that far to get from 73 to a hundred. Right Steve?

Steve: That’s right.

Carrie: So once we get to a hundred, I will be giving out another t-shirt for somebody in between the 50 and 100 mark and maybe about every 50 subscribers or so we will give away a t-shirt.

I would love to have 500 subscribers on the email list. That would be amazing. So it’s a great way for you to know firsthand what’s going on with me and what’s going on with the Hope for Anxiety and OCD Podcast. You can subscribe by going to our website, hopeforanxietyandocd.com. You are certainly welcome to go through our website and buy one, If you are really itching for some podcast merchandise. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. And I hope to hear from some of you soon.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

76. Finding Joy in the Midst of the Trial of Cancer with John Bennet.

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 76. Finding Joy in the Midst of the Trial of Cancer with John Bennet.

In this episode, Carrie is joined by John Bennett, a banker and author, to discuss finding joy through life’s trials. John opens up about his journey from a cancer diagnosis to his recovery, sharing how his faith and mindset helped him through some of the most challenging times in his life.

Episode Highlights:

  • John’s initial cancer diagnosis and the challenges he faced during treatment.
  • How he managed the emotional and spiritual side of being diagnosed with a terminal illness.
  • The impact of hundreds of people praying for him throughout his journey and how that support helped keep his spirit strong.
  • How the acceptance of life’s limitations, whether dealing with cancer or mental health struggles like anxiety or OCD, can bring peace and growth.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to Episode 76 of Christian Faith and OCD. John Bennett, a banker, author, and cancer survivor shares his remarkable journey through multiple myeloma—a type of cancer that affects the blood and bone marrow.

John opens up about his initial diagnosis and the rigorous treatment regimen he faced, including chemotherapy, radiation, surgeries, and a stem cell transplant. Despite the severity of his illness, John’s unwavering faith in God guided him through this challenging period. He discusses how his Christian beliefs helped him view his diagnosis as part of a divine plan, balancing his trust in God with proactive medical treatment.

Throughout our conversation, John reflects on the transformative impact of his illness on his life. He highlights how facing such a serious condition led him to reevaluate his priorities, deepen his relationships, and find new sources of joy.

Tune in to discover how finding joy amidst trials is possible through faith and perseverance. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking encouragement and strength in their own challenges.

More Episodes to Listen to:

95. Healthier Theology of Healing with Pastor Mark Smith

Transcript

Carrie: Today on the show, we’re going to be talking about joy in the midst of trials. And our guest today is gonna be talking about his journey through a cancer diagnosis and treatment. This is John Bennett. He is a banker, author of the book, Build it right for business owners and a cancer survivor. John, welcome to the show. 

John: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

Carrie: I also should say, I feel like I inherited you as a friend when I married Steve, is that fair? 

John: Yes. I think that’s very fair. Definitely.

Carrie:  And I just appreciate you and your wife’s friendship and how you encouraged Steve before I even came along that God has somebody for you. And so it’s nice that we have people each in our lives that encouraged us and prayed for our future spouse. So I just think that that’s really sweet. 

John: Definitely. It was an enjoyable part of a friendship, for sure. 

Carrie: This is gonna be really interesting because I don’t know this part of your story. So I’m kind of learning along with the audience a little bit. Tell us about the process of getting diagnosed with cancer. What was that like for you? 

John: Okay. About three and a half years ago, I was totally healthy. Never had any big health issues in my life and started having pain in my lower back. And we thought at first it was maybe. Needed a chiropractic adjustment, different things, check different things out. It kept getting worse. And obviously eventually it was diagnosed as cancer. It’s a blood cancer called multiple myeloma and it’s considered a terminal cancer. Although the treatments have come so far in the last few years that some doctors look at it as potentially a chronic disease and not terminal.

So, it’s still to be determined on that. But I went through a period of time after the diagnosis where I had to go through, started off with chemo. Went through four rounds of that. Actually I started with radiation. They radiated my spine to kill the cancer in my spine. And then I went through chemo and then I had to have three back surgeries because the cancer had gotten into my spine and one of my vertebrae had completely collapsed and another one had partially collapsed. So, they had to go in and fix that. And then I went through a stem cell transplant. And after that I had about 14 more rounds of chemo. So it was a pretty long process there for a while to move through the cancer. 

Carrie: Wow! How long has it been? 

John: It was three and a half years ago. 

Carrie: Wow. 

John: When I was originally diagnosed.

Carrie: That’s a long treatment process.

John: It was long. It built even more tenacity in me. Thankfully, I had a good bit of endurance and tenacity, but it certainly increased that. But yes, it was very much a long process.

Carrie: Going back to thinking about when you were first diagnosed and someone says you have this very serious cancer, we consider it to be a terminal cancer. How did you respond to that emotionally? 

John: You know, I am a Christian and my faith in God is the rock of my life. I knew I had a choice initially with the diagnosis, so I could either surrender that to God and acknowledge that he was totally in control or I could panic. I could do one of two things. And so I chose to embrace it, which is maybe odd, but I chose to embrace it. And I thought for some reason, God has ordained me to have cancer. I didn’t get really depressed or down like a lot of people do. I chose a different route and the way I had to deal with it emotionally and spiritually was to realize that my time might be a lot more limited than I originally thought it would be.

I was planning on living to a ripe old age and had really tried to keep myself in good health. And I had to look at the very real possibility that the timeframe of life might be drastically different. I knew I would have to reprioritize a lot of things in my life. I knew that career aspirations might change dramatically. I knew that my body expectations of what I could do physically would probably have to be adjusted a lot. I would have to really adjust my expectations and accept my limitations. And yet, try to overcome as many of those as I could too. Cause I kind of wanted to look at it from a balance of I’m trusting God a hundred percent. And if he takes me out of this life with this cancer, I wanna be okay with that. 

But it doesn’t mean I’m just gonna sit back and give up either I wanna work. I want to do everything. The doctors are telling me. I want to try to eat as healthy as I can. Exercise, definitely stay on all my medication, stay on top of all the testing, everything possible that could be done. That’s kind of how I looked at it. I guess I’d really just stepped back and looked at it as a challenge that God had put in my life. And I thought somehow he is going to use this in a great way. And I remember sending out an email to all of my coworkers just to let them know what was going on. I thought I would just make it. Really an open situation. So nobody felt weird about asking me or whatever, and I kind of described what was going on. And I remember in the email, I said, “I have no doubt that God is gonna make me a better person and a better leader through this”. And so I’m looking forward to the challenge and I intend to embrace it and, and roll with it.

So that made a huge difference. I think in the way that I was able to walk through the process and did I ever get down? I did have a couple of what I call gut punches in the process. We had a hard time getting me into remission. When I went through the stem cell transplant, I was not in a complete remission. That’s why we went through another 14 rounds of chemo after that, which was probably more than most people have to deal with. That have this cancer. Most people can get into a remission. The first time with less, we got to the point where I was talking to the two specialists I was working with and they were saying, “we may not be able to get you there. You may just be able to get to a partial remission”. And I said, “well, as long as I’m handling the chemo, let’s keep going until we’ve beat this thing as much as we can”. And then determined that I said, “I’m not ready to give up on that yet”. And by the grace of God, we got there, got me into complete stringent remission, which has been fabulous.

I’m glad I kept on, but there was, I would go in and I remember one time I went in and the levels had gone back up. After all this treatment, and that was a gut punch. It was like work so hard and I’m trusting God and I’m moving forward, but it’s going the other way. There were a couple of challenges there where things didn’t go as planned, but overall it was a pretty positive process and God was unbelievably faithful.

Before I forget this part, I’d say the biggest part of my treatment was having. I think, literally hundreds of people praying for me every time somebody would say, “Hey, can I put you on my prayer list for my church or my Sunday school class or life group or Bible study”. I’m like, please do just very, very open about that. And I know I had hundreds of people praying for me on a daily basis and a lot of ’em would text me. Your husband was one of them, Steve. And that I have no doubt. 

God answered so many prayers. And he kept me up. As far as my spirit, my emotions, people ask me, you know, they always have to take you through some questionnaires when you get cancer and you have to meet with a counselor. And they said, “you know, are you down? Are you struggling with depression”? I said, “actually, I’m not. I feel great”. I really feel like this is what God has for me. And so I’m not gonna push back on it. I’m just gonna embrace it. I mean, it’s not what I would’ve chosen, obviously, but if this is his plan, I’m gonna trust him. I haven’t always trusted him. I wish I would have, but I thought this time I’m going to, I just said, “God, whatever you got, if you take me out early with this, or if I make it through, just let me be a witness and use me every way you can”. 

Carrie: I wanna talk about that acceptance piece because even though you’re talking about a physical struggle, this is so vivid.

To our listeners who are struggling with anxiety and OCD. And I talk to people every day who say, “I don’t want the OCD label, or even, I don’t wanna have to be dealing with anxiety because I don’t know if I’m ever gonna be able to get out of this”. This may be somewhat of a lifelong struggle that I deal with.

Sometimes these can be chronic conditions. Sometimes they can wax and wane and get better, but sometimes people have to deal with them for a long time and they have a hard time. I think, accepting you use the words, God ordained me to have cancer. And I think a lot of our listeners would have a hard time saying, like, God ordained me to struggle with OCD or God ordained me to struggle with anxiety. Can you talk a little bit about like that acceptance piece, just in terms of God’s sovereignty and will over our lives.

John: Sure. I guess with anxiety and OCD it’s somewhat similar to cancer and you don’t always work toward getting that and you may try to stay away from that, but sometimes things in your life can happen and cause that some things that are out of our control, I’m sure there’s people that grew up in situations where it cause anxiety. And they’ve had a hard time shaking that. I don’t know what caused my cancer. I was a guy who exercised, kept my weight down, tried to eat healthy, tried to get enough sleep. I mean, all the things you would want to do. And I was laughing one day and I told my wife, I said, “well, I guess I need to start eating cheeseburgers with bacon all over it and smoking and whatever else I wanna do, because it doesn’t matter. Now I got cancer”.  

Anyway, I guess what it showed me was I was definitely not in control. And I know we say that, but cancer kind of really. Puts the mirror up to your face and shows you you’re not in control and no matter what you do, God still is sovereign. And he may allow somebody to have cancer that did everything they could do to be healthy.

Just like I’m sure some people that may be listening. Think why do I have to struggle with anxiety? I’m a Christian, I’m got a prayer life. I’m trying to grow with God. I’m trying to do the right things. Some of those things are just unexplainable. I think, I knew that I couldn’t do anything to change it. 

I remember talking to one of my oncologists and he said, “you know, I definitely want you to eat healthy. I want you to exercise and all that, but be assured that’s not gonna beat cancer”. That’s gonna help you to endure the treatments, but that’s not gonna fix what you’ve got. Just showed me how much I was reliant on guide through this whole process. And I guess when you realize you’re out of control, it’s maybe sometimes easier to relinquish that, what you think is control? Because it, I used to think I had certain control over certain things, I guess, in my life. And cancer just kind of wakes you up to showing you how vulnerable you are. 

Carrie: You talked too, about accepting your limitations while also trying to overcome some of those. Was it hard for you? I imagine in the beginning, when you had to accept maybe that you couldn’t be as active as you were before, or as social as you were before, because you had to not be around people. Talk to us a little bit about what that is like striking that balance between accepting your limitations and trying to overcome ’em.

John: That’s a work in progress process. It’s something that I still work through each day. I, for instance, I like to exercise. I’ve always been the type of person that likes to get better at things. So I want to try to get a little bit in a little bit better shape or do a little bit more exercise. Well, I’ve had to learn that there is a kind of a point of no return for me with exercise. I can do it only so many days a week. I can do it only so many minutes. Or it’s not gonna really help me to get stronger or have more endurance. It’s gonna work the other way and pull me down. Fatigue is something that I have to deal with on a pretty regular basis, because I’m still on a low dose chemo treatment to try to keep the cancer at bay. 

So I take that three weeks a month. And so that causes fatigue. So I have to really balance exercise with rest and I have to do, really moderation, which is not the easiest thing for me. I like to go full steam ahead. I’ve had to realize that less is more in that situation. I do need to be exercising. It’s very important. It helps me to deal with the treatments. It helps me with everything in my battle against cancer in my life. But if I push it too much, it will reverse. And then I’ll have several days to take to recover because it wears me down so much. So accepting that has been hard for me. But as I work through it more, if it gets easier every day, the social part is difficult with COVID. I’ve had to be very protected from being in large group from, with COVID the uptick right now in Nashville, where I live having to be extra cautious with wearing a mask and just really being careful because of my immune system, my weakened immune system, even though I’ve been vaccinated, the doctors don’t know how well I would handle COVID at this point, I’m a person who likes to go to events and be around a lot of people interact with a lot of people. 

I’ve had to be a lot more choosy, with what I do. And just, I’ve had to say no to just countless opportunities for things like a, a big event or a concert or a ball game or things that I would love to go to.  But I just have to say “no” and go to the things that I can. So I’m much more limited than I was. But when you, for a while, after you do a stem cell transplant, you can’t be around anybody. And so when you look at that, and this may be a key too, to the whole process, When you get to that stage, you learn to praise God for the times you can get out. I focus on that. I think this is awesome. I can actually go to an early lunch and sit in a corner booth and things that I can do that I couldn’t do there for a while. I get excited about that rather than get down about. I can’t go to a concert or whatever. 

Carrie: How has cancer been a blessing in your life? I think the joy piece of finding joy in the midst of your trial.

John: I tell you the joy has been overwhelming with it. That’s cancer has been a gift to me. It has helped me to see even closer the finality of my life, that I finite time on this earth. It’s made every interaction, a little more sweet, a little more important. Every friendship, every family relationship, it has helped to focus me even more on growing with the Lord, because I see that when I pass away, it’s gonna be my relationship with God. And those that I love, that’s really gonna matter. Things like career and success and money and pursuit of fame or affirmation, all those kind of things are a lot less important to me now because I see how fleeting they are at this point. And I think I’ve grown a lot wiser. 

People have told me that cancer ages you about 20 years and they were talking about physically. And I think it does sometimes age you physically that much, but I think it also ages you in, or it can age you in wisdom. That much too. And not that I’ve grown 20 years in wisdom, but I’ve definitely grown some because it just really puts things in a different perspective. And I think there have been times when I’ve tried to overdo or do too many things because I wanted to hit check all the boxes and hit all the options. And it’s really helped me to dial down and prioritize. And it’s so much easier for me to say no to good opportunities now, because I’ll say, “that’d be great. I’d love that. 

But you know what? I would rather do this, or this is more important than the other”. And it really has been a blessing in that way too, to prioritize life more. And when you have limited energy and you have limited possibly time on earth and all those kind of things. It really dials it down so that you prioritize. And I think in so many ways, it’s such a blessing that I got cancer because I could have gotten killed in a car wreck, driving home from work three years ago, if that had happened. And that was God’s will, then that would’ve been what was best. But if that had happened, I would not have had the opportunity to work through learning these priorities and having this time to realize that my life may every away quicker than I wanted it. But I’ve got time to make some adjustments, which to me is a great gift.

Carrie: I’m curious, was there anybody, like in your reflection about your life, was there anybody that you really recognize? I need to forgive this person or I need to seek forgiveness from this person. 

John: I have tried to always stay on top of forgiveness cause I knew that could make me better and all I’ll tell you what it has really accentuated is to, let go of any conflict or things that were trivial that may have caused some challenges. I have a blended family, so I have some interactions with some family members that I think, it wasn’t everything I wish it had been. There was some, I guess friction is probably the best way to describe it there. And I think I have embraced them more than I did. And I’ve just realized. Those differences don’t really matter. And I’ve been able to, reach out and love them more because God has given me that strength to do that and maybe judge them less and love them more and to let any friction in the past go. 

So it is for forgiveness in that way, just forgiving on a regular basis and seeing that, I guess this acceptance too, is seeing that everybody that’s in your life. Is there for a reason, even if they, you have some challenges with them, if you have some challenges with family members or friends or people at church they’re in your life for a reason that too, I think is part of submission to God’s sovereignty and saying, “I don’t really understand why these challenges are here or why”. It’s so difficult sometimes to deal with that person, but there’s something you’re teaching me or there’s something you’ve got for me to be some way a blessing to these people. And so I’m gonna embrace that. And I tell you this, embracing this kind of, it gives you such a positive force to go forward with. Whereas resistance can really eat your energy up. And when you have limited energy, it does train you to say let’s don’t cause a lot of extra resistance to see how much we can embrace this. So we can go further with energy that we do have. I think that’s been a real growth point for me.

Carrie: That resistance is something that I see a lot for people in therapy that are dealing, they’re trying to resist. What’s actually going on instead of grieving it. I think sometimes we have to grieve losses of whether it’s losses of time or opportunities or things that we’re not able to do anymore that we used to be able to, but then getting to that place of acceptance of, okay, God, this is where I’m at right now. This is what I’m dealing with in this season. And so how can you use me? How do you wanna use me in this season of my life? Talk with us about your prayer life.

John: Okay. That has been probably the best thing of this whole process. I always wanna have a better and better prayer life. I wanted to spend more time with God every morning before I started my day.

And I would do that to some extent before, but now it is set in stone and it’s nothing happens for me before I spend my time with God. He is, I really believe in that Matthew 6: 33 seek ye first, the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. So I made a commitment. That I’m gonna get up every morning. And before I do anything else before I speak to anybody or do anything, I’m gonna go and spend a good bit of time and prayer with the Lord. And just in his word that has helped me, has steadied me through this whole process. And what has grown out of this is a I really fairly early on, I moved from a point of praying and asking God to help me with this struggle.

To where he gave me a passion to start praying for other people that were struggling, whether it was with a terminal illness or it was with a health issue or a loss of job or whatever the challenge may be. And I feel like he’s developed me into somewhat of a prayer warrior for other people. And I love to find out about people’s struggles in my church or in my sphere of influence so that I can pray for them specifically on a very regular basis and keep up with them and encourage them. And I’ve certainly become just a magnet drawn to people that are diagnosed with cancer for obvious reasons. Because I know a lot of what they’re dealing with and I wanna pray for them on a regular basis, pray for their health, pray for their walk with the Lord, or if they don’t know God that they would come to know him and also be an encourager.

I try to call and check up on them on a regular basis. You know, I know they’re having a test coming up or they’re having chemo for three weeks or whatever. I’ll put that on my calendar and then I’ll follow up with them and just check on ’em because I know how important that is and how much that means. Having gone through it. God’s given me a ministry that I never had before. And I, I don’t know anybody that’s listening that probably would wanna say, “gosh, I wanna go sign up for a cancer ministry. I wanna get cancer so I can help other people with it”. But when you’re chosen, you roll with it. And I do believe that God knows what’s best.

I know. It’s really ironic, but I’ve got more joy in my life right now than I have ever had in my life. And I attribute so much of that to what God has done through giving me cancer. And my cancer is very up in the air. It’s still considered a terminal cancer. There’s not a quote cure for it at this point, but there’s a lot of good treatments. And I might have a few years left or I might live to be 85. They don’t really know. It normally comes back in about 80 to 90% of the cases. So there’s a really high chance that I’ll have to fight it again and again, and that eventually it’ll probably take me out. We don’t know when that is. So I think in a way maybe God gave me that type of cancer so that I don’t think, well I’m curative cancer. And I can just forget all these things that I’ve learned. 

I think he knows that I need probably that encouragement. And that accountability of knowing that this battle is far from over so that I can continue to keep my focus on him. And I think he allows certain things to happen in our lives, because he knows that we need it. I mean, I didn’t have the discipline to spend the time in prayer with him that I spend now. I didn’t have the focus I needed. And I think really cancer may have been the only way he could get me there. And I’m still growing up. I’m not there yet, but he knows what we specifically need. So I would encourage people if you’ve got a struggle, try to embrace that. And again, not make excuses for it. You still try to overcome it as best you can, but you also realize you’re limitations as a human being and you embrace that. Maybe God could use my anxiety because there is a ton of people out there struggling with that. 

Carrie: Wow.

John: So if I can be real about it, maybe that helps somebody else. And that’s kind of what cancer has been for me. And a lot of people have said, “is it okay if I ask you about your cancer or is it okay if I tell so”? And so I’m like, “yes, I’m not, I don’t have the least bit of hesitation about it”. I, for some reason, this is a ministry God’s call me to, so, I don’t want to cover it up. I want to allow him use it any way he wants to. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I mean, I think that’s really great. I would imagine that many people in your situation might feel very anxious when you go back and have scans or tests or things done, just knowing that that’s kind of looming in the background and could come back. Is that just something that you’ve. Another piece of the acceptance for you. 

John: Probably with any type of cancer and in particular with the cancer, I have you kind of do you have to look over your shoulder on a regular basis cause you know, it might be coming back and I have to get blood work every single month to see am I still clear and clean there? And so it’s always a celebration when I get that, but you just can’t focus too much on that either. And I, one thing I decided was cancer. Although this is a ministry God’s given me. It’s only a part of my life. There’s a lot of other parts and I refuse to let cancer be who John Bennett is. God’s put that in my life, but so many other, I’m a father, I’m a husband. I’m Christian, I’m a banker. I got hobbies. So many things that I’ve. That are part of me. I think when you have cancer or if you’ve got anxiety or whatever it is that you’re working with, and you’re challenged with, you gotta be careful not to let that become everything to. You know that it’s a part of life.

I don’t sit around and talk about cancer all the time. I don’t bring that up in conversations with people if they know about it, or if I can share an encouragement, encouraging word, because of that, I’ll do it. But there’s a lot of people that know me that don’t even know I have cancer because it’s not everything.

It’s a part of me. And it comes out when it needs to, but I’m more than just a sick person with cancer. And thank God. My health is good right now. I think you have to be careful there. You have to realize that yes, it can. Cancer can come back and take you out pretty quickly. But at the same time, you don’t wanna focus on that or you don’t really have a life, focus so much on your limitations. Then the time that you do have, will be wasted instead of used for the glory of God and for blessing other people. 

Carrie: I think that’s so huge just in terms of not identifying solely with your diagnosis, but really identifying yourself as a whole person and spiritually as a child of God, that is, should be our main identity.

That’s huge too. 

John: Right. And it is all relative too. I mean, when you look at the age you are, or whatever happens to you. I’ve had a couple of friends, one that got killed in his twenties. And so if I die early of cancer, compared to my friend, I’ve had a really long life, I think too, it’s learning to praise God for your blessings. And I remember going to in, when I first started getting chemo and I had really prayed a lot about this, and I was talking to one of the nurses and I said, “I’m gonna be the most excited cancer patient you’ve ever had”. I said, “I’m coming in here and I’m glad to get this chemo.  And I appreciate you guys doing this”. And she said, “Okay, you gotta be joking”. I said, “actually, I’m really not”. I said, “you’re helping to kill my cancer. And so I’m excited about that”. And she said, “well, you’re the first person that’s ever thanked me for giving chemo”. And I said, “well, I’m gonna enjoy this process”. And I said, “that may sound stupid or crazy, but I am not gonna come in here with my head down”. Gosh, I’ve gotta get chemo again. I’m worried about, gosh, what’s gonna happen to me. I wanna come in here and live. And I’m gonna have fun and I’m gonna enjoy it and I’m gonna make the most of it. And not that it’s all pleasant, cause  going through some of those things I can tell you, there was a lot of pain.

I got cut on so many times. It’s not funny. I’ve got so many drugs that have gone into my body to try to kill this cancer. It’s overwhelming. I don’t mean to make light of it. But, I was determined. I was gonna find the good in it and praise God for it. And I’ll tell you, that’s made a huge difference. And I was just, I’d seen other cancer patients in particular that got so down and they were discouraging it themselves and everybody else. And I thought, I’m not doing that by the grace of God. I’m not gonna do that. I’m gonna come in here and I’m gonna make the most of this. And whether my time is long or short, I wanna live it to the fullest.

I think that’s what God wants us to do. And we all have struggles. I remember when my Sunday school class or some people call it life group, when they first found out, I told ’em about the cancer diagnosis and it was pretty grim in there. And people were really upset and they prayed for me as a group, which was awesome. And I said, “well, let me just say this”. I said, “everybody in here has got struggles. Some of you have a wayward child. Some of you are having struggles in your marriage. Some of you just lost a job. Some of you got financial difficulties, some of you have other health issues. Some of you are depressed. I’m not the only one in here that has a challenge. So don’t worry about me and don’t focus just on me”. That’s all realize that we’ve all got these things that are challenging. And my cancer is not any more important than your problem in your marriage. 

Whatever it is that you’re challenged with.

I don’t wanna be singled out and people to feel sorry for me either. Cause I mean, some other struggles that people have are a lot worse than what I have. I think it’s important too, with whatever you’re dealing with to not get on the pity party and not think that, gosh, I’ve just got it so hard. I mean, I think I’m so blessed honestly. And I think we all have to just really focus on that. That to me, that seems, like the antidote for depression is praising God. And thanking God for what you do have. And if you look hard enough, you can find a lot of blessings. I don’t care what’s going on in your life. I have certainly seen that. Just what I’ve been through in the last three and a half years.

Carrie: Absolutely. There’s a verse in James about every good and perfect gift is from the father. And that helped me so much through my divorce that it, it caused me really to look at the good things that were in my life and recognize that they were there, cause God put ’em there. And that like you were saying, I could be thankful. And that helped me through that process become a more thankful person, I think, instead of just focusing on the negative and the hurt and the pain that I was going through at that time, that helped a lot. But if you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger self who was just getting diagnosed? Which I guess you do this, because you talk to people who have just been diagnosed with cancer. What do you tell them? 

John: Real good question. The number one thing is focus on your relationship with God. Trust him and move toward, trusting him more and find out how does he want to use this in your life and ask him for the strength every day to go through?

Because he certainly gave me that cancer is not easy and there’s some suffering that goes on and there is. I guess some uncertainty for sure about what your life’s gonna look like and how long it’s gonna last, what all are you gonna have to go through and all of that kind of things, but really it’s just, it’s putting your focus on Christ. I think that is the key. If somebody’s not a Christian, that’s my first suggestion to them is that they seriously consider a relationship with Jesus Christ. If they are that work to grow closer with him and spend more time with him. Let him use this process. And I guess be flexible. We were talking about, being willing to embrace what he’s brought.

I remember when I, after I had my stem cell transplant, it was a time where, as somebody told me before I had this, they said, “you’re gonna get what we call death bed sick”. And I understand what that means now because they take your  immune system, literally down to zero for a few days. It’s very difficult. When I went through that, I was actually nauseous 24 hours a day for 30 days in a row. And I didn’t want anything to eat. Anytime. Every time we had meal time, I just hated it. I didn’t want anybody to bring anything in, but obviously I had to get food to continue to live through this. The funny thing in, in the hospital, I got to where the one thing I could eat was peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And that was the only thing I could eat that I even halfway enjoyed. And so they laughed because they would just fix me a peanut butter jelly sandwich for every meal. 

Once I was in there for a while, because the other stuff was just so disgusting to me. And not that peanut butter jelly was amazing, but I could eat it. And I could said halfway enjoy it. And I guess that maybe goes back to, as a kid, I love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. 

So, I ate those and went through that process. But when I got through all the treatment, I was in the treatment room as we called it or treatment lab for my last time with the stem cell transplant. And then I would be moved out of that and go back to my reg oncologist. I remember looking back and I looked at the people that were laying there on the beds, that where I had been a lot of them, where I was, where I was down to nothing almost as far as strength and energy and, and immune system and, and everything.

I remember, it just felt like God was telling me. Don’t you ever forget where you were and don’t ever forget to praise me and don’t ever forget what I took you through and how I want to use you to encourage other people. Because now that you’ve come through that, remember how low you were. I mean, physically I was as low as you can get without dying. I remember just getting up to go to the bathroom in my hospital room, which was obviously right there beside the bed. It was exhausting. I mean, I was literally exhausted after I got up and walked to the bathroom, which was like, I don’t know, four or five steps going through that. I just felt like God was turn around and look one more time and look at those people and don’t ever forget it, whatever challenges I may have in life. 

If I look back at that, everything looks pretty good. And I think if you can look back at what God has brought you through and not forget about that, it helps you to see. How blessed you are now, even with the challenges that you may have, how much better off you are and how good he has been to you. And you know, at that point, when I was walking through all that, I never knew I would get to the point I’m at now where, I mean, I’m feeling great. I just have to deal with fatigue. I’ve been able by the grace of God, I’ve been able to continue to work full time, which a lot of people have not been able to do that with this cancer. I’ve just been really, really blessed, but I look back and I know what it’s like though, to be knocked all the way down on the ground, where you are laid out flat.

I think looking back at those times and realizing that God was with me every single day that I was going through that there was a time when I really wondered, am I ever gonna get to where I can eat food again? I mean, after 20 something days of being nauseous, you know, I didn’t know that it was gonna end after 30 days, but I really thought, I don’t know if this is ever gonna change. And the doctors couldn’t tell me when or what was gonna happen. Cause I took an enormous amount of chemo to go through the stem cell transplant. And it just really upended my whole body. 

That was one of those things where I didn’t know how it was gonna turn out or if it was gonna turn in a good way anytime soon.

But through that though, I see that God was there every day. I can look back at people that prayed for me. I can look back at people that encourage me. I can look back at things that I read, just so many things. Every day he gave me just what I needed to get through that day. He’s been so incredibly faithful. And I guess those 30 days were times when he carried me as the footprints and the sandpoint talks about. I can look back and see that. He carried me through that, cause I had absolutely nothing to give at that point yet he brought me through that. So he can do that for everybody else’s listening today.

Carrie: This has really been a great interview and I think so, relevant to people and encouraging, not just for people with cancer, but people who are going through any struggle really in their life right now. Thank you for sharing your story.

John: Thank you. What’s been an honor. And I hope that something, I said, blesses somebody and encourages somebody because I definitely know if you have God in your life, there is no reason to give up.

He is too strong and he’s too powerful. He’s too faithful. And he loves us too much. Whatever is knocked somebody down. Our God is a resurrecting God. He can resurrect the dead. He can sure resurrect our lives. And he’s done that with me, with my cancer. And he can do that for somebody emotionally or physically or whatever they’re going through. I just give him all the glory because he deserves it. And it’s been a real honor to be on the program.

Carrie: As I was coming back from maternity leave, I really needed to get some interviews done. And one day, Steve and I were just kind of going back and forth about different episode topics and things. And he said, “well, you know, you should interview John”. I’m really glad that he made that recommendation because I love how this interview turned out. If you ever want to support our show, you can do so. By going to Patreon, we’re also on by me a coffee for one time donations as always, you can find us anytime on Hope for Anxiety and OCD.com. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

75. God as Close as Your Breath: Breath Prayer with Jennifer Tucker

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 75. God as Close as Your Breath: Breath Prayer with Jennifer Tucker

Today on the show, I’m joined by author Jennifer Tucker. Jennifer talks about her discovery of breath prayer and how it helped her with her anxiety.

Episode Highlights:

  • Jennifer’s experience of anxiety and depression
  • How Jen came across breath prayer
  • How breath prayer helps calm anxiety 
  • Examples of breath prayer
  • Jennifer’s Book: Breath as Prayer: Calm Your Anxiety, Focus Your Mind, and Renew Your Soul

Episode Summary:

Jennifer Tucker, the author of Breath as Praye shares how breath prayers helped her navigate anxiety and depression. She opens up about masking her struggles for years, thinking anxiety was something to be ashamed of because of how certain Bible verses were presented to her growing up. She talks about how anxiety often showed up as perfectionism and people-pleasing, and how she finally faced her struggles when helping her daughter through severe panic attacks.

We also discuss the stigma around therapy and medication in Christian circles and how important it is to see mental health as part of our overall well-being. Jennifer beautifully explains how breath prayers combine calming techniques with connecting to God, making them a powerful tool for managing anxiety.

If you’ve ever felt isolated in your mental health struggles or overwhelmed by anxiety, I hope this conversation encourages you to explore what works for you and lean on God’s ever-present comfort.

Links and Resources:

Breath as Prayer: Calm Your Anxiety, Focus Your Mind, and Renew Your Soul

Jennifer Tucker 

Transcript

Christian Faith and OCD episode 75. Today on the show, I’m very excited to bring an interview with Jennifer Tucker, author of Breath as Prayer. She will share with us her discovery of this practice of breath prayers and how those helped her get through a challenging situation in her own life. So here is the interview.

Carrie: Jennifer, talk with us about your story of dealing with anxiety and depression. 

Jennifer: Sure. So, my story of dealing with anxiety and depression is a whole lot of not dealing with my anxiety and depression. I think for a very long time, I wouldn’t even admit that I struggled as much as I did with anxiety and depression. I grew up feeling like anxiety was almost like a sin. It isn’t good. If you’re anxious, ’cause the Bible says, “Be anxious for nothing, do not worry about anything.” So that was crammed in my head so much. And so when I would struggle with feelings of anxiety or feelings of depression. I would really be filled with a lot of shame about that.

I tried to hide it. I tried to mask it for a very long, and I didn’t even realize what I was doing. I don’t think at the time, especially as a teenager or young adult, I really didn’t know that’s what I was doing with my anxiety. I came out a lot as. It is masked as perfectionism, overworking, and extreme people-pleasing. I felt like I needed to control every little piece of my life in order to keep those feelings of anxiety at that day. And then when things, of course, wouldn’t go my way or things weren’t quite perfect. Then, my anxiety would flare up, and I’d have a tough time emotionally. I just felt like I was just an emotional person.

Why do I feel this way? Why do I struggle so much? I’ve always leaned more toward a bit of melancholy, kind of just—more that way. Just my natural tendency is that way. Regarding the depression side, I did not recognize my depression for what it was: the symptoms. I didn’t want to have it, so I masked and hit it a lot. It wasn’t until my youngest daughter, when she was 13, started having very severe panic attacks, and that’s what sent us. Head first into the world of mental health and trying to help her through her severe anxiety disorder and panic disorder. I had to get real honest with myself and my own anxiety and my own struggles with my own mental health.

I’ve learned a ton in the last four years since we’ve been on this journey with her. Much of the work has been working on myself and addressing my anxiety and depression. I see a therapist regularly. I take antidepressants. And I love Jesus with all my heart when those things are not contradictory. I’ve come a long way. My whole idea of mental health has totally flipped and shifted since working with my daughter through all of her struggles and identifying and being honest with myself and with God about my own.

Carrie: I think your story is so relatable to many of our listeners who grew up with that church idea of, okay, well, the Bible says, “be anxious for nothing or don’t be anxious.” Don’t be afraid. And we take that the wrong way. We take it kind of like a directive, like a command, like do not almost like it’s next to do not murder, do not murder, do not be anxious, but really it’s more, I see it as comfort as God sharing with us. I have everything in control. It’s going to be okay. Right?

I don’t want you to have to worry about that. Just like I would comfort my daughter if she cries, it’s okay. I’d tell her everything’s fine. And God does that with us through scripture. It’s just that we don’t have a tone connected to the Bible. And so whatever tone gets laid on by spiritual leaders and others is the tone we take from it—many times. I like what you said about masking your anxiety as other things, such as perfectionism, as the person who’s the high achiever, the go-getter. That’s always moving, always going, the people pleasing. Often, people don’t recognize anxiety symptoms because they are so high functioning.

One of my friends was talking to me about this today, who’s also a counselor, and she said, “You know, so many people deal with high-functioning anxiety. And they don’t even realize it”. And she said, “People don’t think that I’m anxious, but there are times when I’m anxious because I look so high functioning, I look like I’ve got my ducks in a row and I have things together.” So maybe that’s a cue for some people who are listening right now. Perhaps they think they’re listening for somebody else. And they might realize, ” Hey, I have some of those things too. 

Jennifer: Absolutely. I think for many years, I kept myself so busy that I didn’t have time to pay attention to what was happening. It wasn’t until I had to slow down that I could identify and recognize those symptoms for what they were when I took away all those masks. I had to quit my job, my full-time job, and stay home. Well, then, I didn’t have that job to keep me busy and distracted anymore. And so I was left with myself in a lot of ways. And so, that forced me to pay attention to what was happening. And that’s what breath prayers that we’ll talk about later have helped me, too: to slow down and pay attention. And I think that’s been vital for me. Unfortunately, I had to do it. I didn’t choose to do it. I had to do it through circumstances, but I’m so grateful looking back for that. 

Carrie: I love that you and other people we’ve talked to are trying to de-stigmatize going to therapy and taking medication as a Christian like it’s okay. For you to struggle with some of these things, it’s okay to reach out for help, whether that’s medical help or professional counseling help. So, I appreciate you sharing that with our audience. You can love Jesus, have a therapist, and take medication. 

Jennifer: Absolutely. Because I mean, a lot of this is tied to our brain and how we function, and your brain is an organ, just like any other organ in your body. And that’s one thing I’ve learned through working with my daughter, too. I mean, this is as much a medical issue as it is. Mental health is physical health. It is your health. 

Carrie: Yes.

Jennifer: And so treating that, there are so many different factors and things. One of those could be needing professional medical health professional, psychiatric help. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just like going to a specialist for kidney disease or a specialist; if you have a heart issue, you go to a cardiologist. We need to recognize that the brain is so complicated and there are so many factors. Yes. There are environmental factors and far thought patterns and things that matter, too. Still, it could very much be a physical issue with the brain and those connections there and those, so identifying that and recognizing that and design-stigmatizing that, I think, is critical because it’s not a sin to struggle.

We’re all; we live in a fallen world in broken bodies. They’re going to fail us in one way or another. And that’s just that we all deal with something different. But mental health is, unfortunately, I think, where it intersects with faith. We often feel very isolated and alone, and we don’t know how to talk about it in relation to our faith. And I think a lot of times it’s not talked about enough, and it’s not. And there’s that’s where, like, the shame, and that’s what I lived with for years; I had so much shame piled on me because of my struggles. And God doesn’t want us to live that way. And like you said, when he says, “Do not fear, or don’t be anxious,” it’s not a command. I saw it as a command for so long. But it wasn’t until my daughter was struggling. She’d come to me, terrified and afraid. I didn’t get mad or yell at her for being scared. I wrapped her in my arms, and I reminded her. You don’t have to be afraid. I’m here. You’re not alone. You’re safe. And that’s what God’s doing in the Bible. He’s telling us you’re not alone. I’m here with you. You’re safe. You don’t have to be afraid. And that’s the thing that’s shifted everything for me is realizing that difference there, turning how I perceived how the Bible talked about anxiety. 

Carrie: In this process of getting your daughter some help and then recognizing your anxiety working through that physically, emotionally, and spiritually, you came across breath prayers, right? So, tell us a little bit about that. 

Jennifer: Sure. Yes, this was in the middle of it; it was probably two years ago or so. One of the very first things my daughter’s psychiatrist and her therapist worked with her on, and incidentally, the first thing her psychiatrist told her was breathing is the bridge between the brain and the body.

And so, the breathing exercises were one of the first things they started practicing with her to help her manage her anxiety. I had never realized that before now, different breathing exercises don’t necessarily work for everyone; for my daughter in particular, I’m not a scientist; I’m not a doctor. I don’t claim to be an expert in any way, but I have researched, and it is more and more fascinating how God has created our bodies and even the act of breathing. It’s the one body process that we have control of. We can control whether we’re breathing rapidly and fast, or we can slow our breathing. But we can do that. By slowing our breathing, we connect to our parasympathetic nervous system, which tells our brain the whole process of how our body handles anxiety. It’s how God created us. And it’s okay. It’s not bad, especially if you’re going for a hike and you, a bear, come in your path; you’ll be thankful you have anxiety.

Carrie: Right.

Jennifer: Because your body is going to be the gear. That sympathetic nervous system kicks in, your amygdala takes over, and you will act and respond to that threat. That fear that’ll help you hopefully keep you safe because you’ll be able to respond to that. But many times, because of the fall, our brains aren’t always connected the way God originally intended, and our bodies don’t always process stimuli as we’re supposed to. Sometimes, the sympathetic nervous system will get riled up over something that isn’t a threat to us, and we’ll get anxious and worried. And so one way we can calm the amygdala down and calm the sympathetic nervous system down is through deep breathing because our breath connects to the vagus nerve, which connects to all of our organs, our major organs in our body. And so by slowing our breath, we’re telling our brain we’re okay, we’re not in danger here. Then, the brain can send signals to the heart, which slows down as our breathing slows down. And you really, you do feel calmer.

It’s a physiological thing that happens in our bodies and how God made us. And through the breath, we can do that. And when we connect, that’s the physical side of it. But then, when we connect prayer to that, we’re, at the same time, turning our thoughts to Christ, to his truth, to replace. Whatever those worries are, whatever those fears are, with some truth from his word, then we are connecting our mind, body, and soul all at once to Christ. And to me, that’s what makes the breath prayer so powerful. Cause there’s lots of breathwork. There are lots of different breath-breathing exercises you can do. And they are very helpful, and there are tons of scientific studies around that. But I also believe there’s just a significant power in prayer. Combining the two. To me, breath prayer is a powerful tool to manage my anxiety.

when she focuses on her breathing, it makes her more anxious and conspires with her into panic. And so this isn’t something that works for absolutely everybody. 

So, she’s had to find other techniques for her, but breathing exercises help me greatly in researching. What are different things that can help her? What are strategies that both she and I can use? How can we learn to manage this anxiety? I did. I completely stumbled upon breath and prayers in a blog post online that someone I wrote, and I had never heard of before. It’s not common, at least not in my faith tradition. I had not heard about it very much. But it captivated me from the get-go because it incorporates and ties into your breath, which I already knew was significant in helping me manage my anxiety.

It brought in the other element of connecting to God through prayer and focusing on his word. And so, when I learned about them, I scribbled down a few of them and even wrote a blog post about them. It was so helpful to me, and I just thought they were a great way to pray when you’re anxious because they are so short that it doesn’t require a lot of because when you’re anxious. A lot of it’s really when you’re anxious. I know for me, it’s hard to think, and it’s hard to process because you get so lost in the worries and the thoughts and the overwhelming feeling just of the anxiety. 

Breath prayers give you the words to pray when you don’t have those words to pray or when you’re feeling anxious in particular. And so that had helped me to give me words to pray when I was like, I don’t know, I don’t even know what to say. What do I say? But it wasn’t until last year that my daughter was hospitalized; she was admitted to the hospital last February. That night, I was just such a hard night because we were facing a new battle, and it was going to be, I didn’t know, would happen because she was very, very sick. And I was terrified, and I lay down on the, she fell asleep. It was like 2:00 a.m. in her hospital room. I laid down on this vinyl couch, and I was just overwhelmed with anxiety, fear, and worry. I was terrified; I didn’t know how the following days would go, let alone the next few months ahead. And I felt like in the last three years before that, I had prayed everything. 

I knew to pray for healing, strength, and all these things that didn’t happen. And I was like, I’ve said all the words I know to say, God, I don’t have any more words to pray. And at that moment, a breath prayer came to my mind that I had written down months before and was from Psalm 23. “The Lord is my shepherd. I have all I need”. And that’s the only thing I could think of when I had trouble catching my breath. I was crying. I was just so overwhelmed. But I remember those breath prayers, and I started just inhaling slowly. The Lord is my shepherd, and then exhaling. I have all that I need, and then I make myself slow down my breathing and focus on just those words. And that’s when I think breath prayer became significant to me because at that moment, as I focused on where I mean, I was in this hospital room. My daughter was so sick. I didn’t know what would happen, but I’m focusing on the Lord is my shepherd, and I’m a sheep, and he loves me, and he’s here. He’s present with me, and I have all that I need.

I have him. It doesn’t matter what’s to come. I have God; I have Christ. I have all that I need. It’s going to be okay. And I can’t explain the piece that I had at that moment. As I slowed my breathing, my anxiety eased, and I was able to fall asleep. That’s not to say my anxiety went away. Because the next day, I was anxious again. The doctors came in, and different things happened, but I found myself in those next few weeks as we were in the hospital, I’d walk the halls and breathe slowly and pray those, that one breath prayer. I think I just prayed that one mostly repeatedly, but it became my lifeline during those days. It became a prayer. I could pray when I was overwhelmed and didn’t have words. And ever since then, it has been a part of my regular prayer life. It’s not the only prayers I pray, but it’s become a significant way for me to slow down and be very intentional about trusting God and leaning into him when I’m anxious.

Carrie: Wow! That’s really powerful. I’ve had a lot of thoughts about this, and I hate to go too deep here, but when we think about it, the Holy Spirit lives inside of us. And I always just wonder about that. Yes. That’s like the Holy Spirit is somehow connected with our spirit as a person, that we’re spiritual beings. And I always wonder about the Holy Spirit’s interaction with our body. Because it says that we’re a temple of the Holy Spirit. So, I’m just curious if like breath is almost a way for us to connect. I don’t know if it is or not. This is not coming from scripture. It’s just coming from Carrie’s musings. But I wonder if in those moments, like when we slow down, and we breathe, and we pray if, that’s a way for us to just tap into the Holy Spirit that’s already inside of us, and we forget. That God’s that close. You know what I’m saying?

Jennifer:  Absolutely.

Carrie: God’s already here. 

Jennifer: He’s as close as our breath. I mean, man, he created man. That’s what created life. His breath brought Adam to life and gave him the soul created through God’s breath. And so our breath every day, every breath we take. It is a gift from him. He is giving us life. And he’s the one who sustains our life. And I  agree. The Holy Spirit’s in us, working in us; the Bible says he’s transforming us through the renewing of our minds. And I believe that these are ways he does renew our mind and brain. And there’s science to back this up; science and faith are not contradictory. No, no. We act like they are like, no science, but no, the science is only proving what God’s already said. And he has made our body and created our body in such a complex way. And our brain literally can create new pathways in our brain.

As we retrain our brain to, for example, breathe, prayer is one way I have changed how I respond to my anxiety. So, instead of immediately spiraling into panic, I can immediately turn to Christ. Breathe in deep. Remind myself of a truth from his word. And if I do that over and over and over again if I repeat it, it’s just like with any habit or any rhythm we create in our life; you’re rewiring your brain. God’s transforming us by renewing our minds by shifting how we think and shifting how we respond to things. But it takes intentional work, and that’s breath; prayers aren’t hard. They’re super easy, but it does take intentionality to slow down. Stop. And do it just for a few minutes. It doesn’t take long, but it can significantly impact how we think and process our anxiety because we’re rewiring our brains. It’s fascinating. 

Carrie: I love that. I thought it would be cool if you could write a book. Do you put several of these prayers into a book? Breathe as prayer, calm your anxiety, focus your mind, and renew your soul. And I thought it would be cool to give people a little taste of one of those you put in there and maybe lead us through life, like one of those exercises. 

Jennifer: Sure, I’ll do my best. Breath prayers are just two lines long. Usually, I, there are.

Carrie: Okay.

Jennifer: There are a few breath prayers in my book in four lines where you inhale and exhale twice to get through it. But most of them are just two lines. You inhale on the first line, inhale slowly as you pray the first line, and exhale slowly as you pray. The second line of the prayer. All my breath prayers in my book are rooted in scripture. They’re all coming from the word of God. I’ve taken verses and made them into prayers, just short little prayers. 

So that way, we’re focused on the truth. And it’s from the word of God. Although you can pray, any prayers that you want are breath prayers. But one that I particularly like. It comes from Psalm 55: 22, which says, “Give your burdens to the Lord, and he will take care of you”. And so the breath prayer I wrote with that one says, “I give my burdens to you.” Cause I’m talking to God. I give my burdens to you. You will take care of me”. When you pray a breath prayer, the idea is to breathe in slowly and exhale slowly. And one, we typically breathe in through our nose and out through our mouth. And I like to remember that by smelling the flowers and blowing out the candles. It’s a common phrase that’s used with breathwork. 

So you pretend that you’re smelling the flowers slowly and then slowly blowing out all the candles on that cake as you exhale fully. There are lots of different patterns and rhythms to breathing that you can do. But my favorite is to inhale for five seconds and then exhale for five seconds. I’ll try to lead you in that by just saying inhale because I can’t talk as I inhale. So I’ll say inhale and then read the first line.

Carrie: Okay. 

Jennifer: Then I’ll say exhale and read the second line as you slowly exhale. And then we’ll repeat that just a couple of times.

Carrie: That sounds good.

Jennifer: And that’ll be it. Okay. Inhale slowly. I give my burdens to you. And exhale; you will take care of me. Inhale again. I give my burdens to you. Exhale. You will take care of me, and we’ll do it again. Inhale slowly. I give my burdens to you. And exhale, you will take care of me, and that’s as simple as it is. And you can repeat it as many times as you want. I typically try to pray them for at least three to five minutes. But you can start with just one minute; repeat it a few times. And you’ll find that just as your prayer aligns with the rhythm of your breath and you’re slowing down and focusing your mind on these words; it does help to calm your feelings of anxiety. 

Carrie: I like this because it’s short and you could use it anywhere you can use it in the grocery store. You can use it in the car if you start to feel anxious. If you’re driving home, you don’t even have to close your eyes. You can breathe.

Jennifer: Absolutely. 

Carrie: Breathe in and out. You can use this before going into an important meeting, say that you have for work or school. There are so many applications, I think. And I think you could even use this at the beginning or end of a longer prayer time where you’re giving your burdens to the Lord. And then all of a sudden, it brings up like, okay, well, these are some things that are on my mind that I’m thinking about that I want to talk to God about more in-depth or more fully.

I think we make prayer so much more complicated really than it has to be. Right? We believe it has to be a specific format or structure. That somehow God will be unhappy with us if we say something the wrong way, but God is longing for that connection with us. He wants us to honor him in our prayers and be respectful, but he also wants us to tell us exactly how we feel and what’s on our minds, etc. This is a great way to do that. And it’s simple; it’s a good strategy to integrate with, like you said, deep breathing, which is, this activity is a mind, body, spirit practice. 

Jennifer: And I found just what you said, the breath prayers. They’re not the only prayers I pray. Usually, more times than not, I’ll start out praying a breath prayer, but it leads right into a more profound prayer with God in a longer prayer with more specifics; it just helps set the tone. It helps me slow down and be intentional. It opens that door to prayer for me and really kind of centers my mind more on Christ, gets me out of my worries, in the middle underneath all of my anxieties, and points me more toward Christ. And that allows me to pray more honestly with God and be, you know, it does. It has helped a lot. And so, for those who don’t pray a lot or don’t know what to pray, this is a great way to start. It’s a great thing to begin with.

Carrie: It’s very mindful, too, in the sense that it connects us back to the present moment because we’ve talked about mindfulness on the podcast and how that can be helpful for anxiety. Just to bring us into the present moment with God.

Jennifer: Absolutely.

Carrie: That’s great. So, your book is coming out August 16th. I’m not entirely sure when this episode airs, but I know people will listen at different times, too. So, if it’s before August 16th, there are presales. And if you pre-buy the book, you get extra goodies and things like that. And if you catch this after August 16th, it’ll be out, and they can find it. I’m sure wherever they buy books. 

Jennifer: Absolutely. 

Carrie: Is there anything else you wanted to say about the book?

Jennifer: I hope it’ll be an encouragement to people. Even if you don’t struggle with anxiety, you know, somebody who does.

Carrie: Sure.

Jennifer: I mean, I think we all have struggled with some form of anxiety, and I do make the distinction in the book, the difference between anxiety, like your normal anxiety, and anxiety disorders; those are very different things. And I think that’s an important distinction, but if you have anxiety. It’s okay. God is not mad at you. He loves you. And he’s just inviting you to turn to him. And for me, anxiety has become, instead of an enemy that I felt like I had to fight or hide from, it’s become more of just a reminder to me. I need to turn to Christ. 

Carrie: At the end of every episode, I like to ask people a question, and when it’s a personal story, I like to go into, like, if you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?

Jennifer: I always get a little tender. When I think about my younger self, she was full of so much shame and so much fear and denial about it all. And I would just, I think I’d, go back and tell her that God’s not mad at you or disappointed in you because you have struggles. It’s okay. And you don’t have to try so hard to be so perfect. My younger self was so determined to be that perfect—good little Christian girl. You know, I was raised in church, and I knew all the right things, and I wanted to do all the right things. And that caused me to live in so much shame when I didn’t meet my expectations or what I thought God’s expectations were for me.

But I think I would tell her that you know what God loves you, and you’re okay. And you don’t have to be so hard on yourself, and you can trust him. You can trust God. And you don’t have to have control over all things because he does. And you’re okay. Relax a little bit. I would tell her that I’m very tender toward my younger self. Bless her heart, too.

Carrie: That’s awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with us today. 

Jennifer: Thank you so so much. I really appreciate it.

Carrie: I like any time we can combine our physical, spiritual, and emotional health into a practice. And knowing that you’re increasing health in those different areas at the same time, we’d love for you to interact with us on Facebook or Instagram. And we will put those links in the show notes for you. 

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

74. Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) and NOCD with Stacy Quick, LPC

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode.

I’m privileged to be interviewing Stay Quick, a licensed professional counselor and therapist at NOCD. Stacy talks about how Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy (ERP) works for OCD and her own experience with OCD.

Episode Highlights:

  • Stacy’s personal journey with scrupulosity
  • How does ERP help people who have OCD
  • Can OCD be cured completely?
  • More about NOCD

Episode Summary:

In Episode 74 of Christian Faith and OCD, I sit down with Stacy Quick, a therapist at NOCD, to dive into the importance of accessible, affordable OCD treatment. Stacy shares her personal journey with OCD, reflecting on how a TV show finally gave her clarity about her struggles and how long it took to find effective treatment. She explains how NOCD provides life-changing early intervention, particularly in areas with limited access to OCD specialists. NOCD offers a free app that not only connects people to a supportive community but also provides Telehealth therapy covered by insurance—a huge advantage, especially for those unable to afford costly treatment options.

One of the highlights of our conversation is the power of Telehealth. Stacy explains how it allows therapists to guide patients through exposure exercises in their own homes, which can sometimes be even more effective than traditional office sessions. She also shares what she wishes she could tell her younger self: to stop worrying about things that won’t happen and to stop letting OCD steal precious time.

We talk about how OCD, and mental health struggles in general, can cause people to become hyper-focused on fixing their issues, often neglecting other aspects of life. It’s a powerful reminder that we are more than our diagnosis, something both Stacy and I deeply believe.

As always, thank you for tuning in!

Links and Resources:

NOCD

Transcript

Today’s episode is on exposure and response prevention, which is often used in treating OCD. I had wanted to devote an episode to this for a little while, because it’s something that’s talked about and has come up on our show before in personal experiences however, there’s a little bit of tension in the community between what I do. That’s a little bit different type of trauma informed approach and ERP as a result, some people have chosen not to appear on the podcast or have been very critical of some things that I have said or written regarding treatment methods, such as EMDR being used for OCD. 

One person even actually accused me of spreading lies on my website before they even had a conversation with me about this. That was a little rough, but we recovered. And unfortunately, today’s guest contacted me to share her personal story and also the work that she does with exposure and response prevention. Today on the show, we have Stacy Quick, licensed professional counselor and therapist at N CD. Welcome to the show today. 

Stacy: Thank you for having me on. I’m excited to be here.

Carrie: So I know that a lot of times we talk to professionals on our show who treat OCD and sometimes they have their own personal experience with OCD. And you had shared with me that you dealt with scrupulosity in the past. Can you just tell us a little bit about your journey of recognizing that you had OCD the symptoms being diagnosed with it?

Stacy: Sure. I’ve actually had OCD for my entire life. I don’t really remember a time not having it. Obviously, I wasn’t diagnosed with it for quite some time, because this was back in the eighties and kind of nineties. And so not as much was known about it. 

Carrie: Sure. 

Stacy: And some of my first, I guess memories, I would say is about age five or six and some of the very first ones that had started were more, what I would now know scrupulosity where I was having images of religious figures that were kind of inappropriate, that kind of things that would, or thoughts about that, that would pop into my head from a very young age.

And it would really, really bother me. And I can remember, I wasn’t really sure what was going on. 

The interesting thing there is that at that time in my life, my dad was pretty much an atheist and we didn’t go to church. We didn’t really believe. So it’s interesting that it took on that form that young, I’ve always wondered about that, but it did. And I know my grandma had been religious and so I assume she had probably talked to me a little bit about stuff and she probably had pictures around her house. So I kind of knew the basics. I knew Mary, I knew Jesus. I knew that kind of thing. And then I think my brain just kind of went wild with that. And then it blossomed into lots and lots of things I joke and say, I think I’ve had every theme or form out there over the years. 

Carrie: That’s important for people to know just about OCD in general, if they haven’t researched it, a ton is themes do shift. So sometimes they’ll think, there will be some kind of sense of relief when they’ve gotten through one theme, like, good that’s gone away now. And sometimes they can deal with a theme. The next theme is a little bit more manageable, so they don’t really feel like they have a problem. They’re like, well maybe that went away. That was super distressing. And then they’re able to manage or cope in their life with the next theme better. And then another theme hits that’s unmanageable. Have you gone through periods of like that because OCD has this tendency, you know, to like wax and wayne. 

Stacy: Definitely. Almost all of the members I’ve seen throughout the years of doing therapy have said very similar things. They’ve said it comes and it goes, there are times in my life. Where it is really loud in times where it’s much quieter. And that seems to be reflective of many people’s experience, not just my own, but theirs as well. One of the things that I think research would support is that when you’re under more stressful times in your life or big life changes, that’s when OCD seems to be more prevalent. It kind of, I think of it in my own life as it kind of hangs out. And then it demands a little more attention during times of change or challenging times in my life. It tries to anyways.

Carrie: That’s a really good way of describing it. It’s like, it’s always there. And sometimes it’s a little bit more in the background and sometimes it’s more in the foreground, like knocking on your brain, demanding attention, like, Hey, pay attention to me.

Stacy: Yes. That’s definitely how I think of it. And I know what I always tell people, people always kind of ask, is it curable? Right? And what I say to that is. It’s very, very manageable. Right? You can live in recovery because of my beliefs. Do I believe that yes, it could be cured. Absolutely. And at the same time, my experience says that’s a very rare thing to happen. I believe God could do it for sure. And sometimes He doesn’t usually, He doesn’t for whatever reason, He knows a lot more than me. So I’m just gonna address that. 

Carrie: I think that’s a great perspective to have on it that regardless of what people are dealing with, whether it’s anxiety or OCD or depression, sometimes we have battles in our life or trials that we go

through that are long term that are ongoing and we do struggle with why won’t God take this away from me? I don’t understand it. Why I’m having to go through this. Did you experience some of that in your own spiritual wrestlings with God? 

Stacy: Absolutely. I really struggled with that throughout the years. I’m in my forties now. And so having had this for 36 years, at least. I started my relationship with God when I was probably around 11. And so since about that time, I struggled. And what has really helped me is when you look at Peter and what Peter says about how I have this thorn in my side, and I often go back to that where he basically says, I ask God three times to take this from me. And he didn’t. And he said, my grace is sufficient for you. And so for me, that’s what I go back to when people ask why, I don’t know why. And it is something that’s my thorn and it’s something I’ve carried doesn’t mean he won’t someday heal it. 

But what it has brought into my life has been this calling, right? I would not be doing the work I do had I not had these experiences. And so I am a big believer that the things we go through or the trials or battles we face are meant to do something right. We’re supposed to do something with them. At least that’s my thoughts. And so I do think that definitely led me down the path. I would not be doing this if it wasn’t for that. 

Carrie: There’s a really great verse in second Corinthians towards the beginning that I like that talks about how we comfort other people with the comfort that we’ve received from God. And I feel in a lot of ways, that’s like my life first, the sufferings and the trials that I’ve been through and have experienced with God. It’s like I’m able to pass the Baton and help other people through some of those similar trials and situations. 

Stacy: Absolutely. I agree a hundred percent. I think the majority of the people I have worked with, who I’ve shared parts of my story with when it’s appropriate, have been so grateful just to find out I’m not alone. There’s someone else who has been down this road because I think OCD in particular has this. Certain peculiar missed about it, that people do feel very alone in it and feel like nobody understands it, because it can take on some really bizarre themes and it jumps so much. Right? So I think people find comfort in that, that, my goodness. Here’s somebody who has been through this and has in a sense, come out on the other side. 

Carrie: So I wanna shift a little bit and get into talking about exposure and response prevention, because that’s the therapeutic tool that you use probably most often on NO CD. I’ve had a little bit of struggles over the years with ERP and I shared some of those with you before we started recording.I don’t dislike ERP I’m completely open to it. I know that it helps some people. I also know that from my background of dealing with trauma, that if someone tries to just use a straight ERP model with someone who’s experienced trauma, sometimes that can make their trauma experiences, PTSD symptoms and worse. And so there’s this balance of having to make sure that we’re helping people who have been diagnosed with multiple things. And a lot of times people will say, well It’s been research that ERP works well with OCD, and we know that people are people they’re complex. And I’ve tried to get someone to talk about ERP  on the show and was basically told that I was spreading lies on my website because I talk about treatments that are not just ERP. And we’ve talked about all kinds of things on the show. 

We were very open to whatever helps people like get the help that you need. And we had someone say they got help through brain spotting with their OCD and that’s awesome. Some people are helped by EMDR and by other methods. And so whatever you can get around you that is gonna help. I want people to be helped, but I’d love to have more of this conversation about how does exposure and response prevention help people who have OCD. 

Stacy: I think you bring up a really great point. I think that’s why it’s so important that if you have been diagnosed with OCD or you suspect that you have OCD that you see somebody who specializes in it’s, somebody who is very familiar with it, because it is often misdiagnosed. And there are many, many people who get misdiagnosed and it can be harmful. Right?

Carrie: Yes absolutely. 

Stacy: We’ve had people who have been diagnosed with psychosis and things like that when it wasn’t, but you really have to know it very well to see the differences. And you want somebody who’s trained enough, who also knows other forms of therapy so that they can tell what else you might need in conjunction. Right? Because you’re right. People often don’t come to you with just straight depression or straight anxiety or straight OCD, right? It is often a combination. And so one of the things we do really well, I think at OCD, is that we are careful to make sure that we’re also giving people resources and referrals for treatment providers that would deal with say complex trauma or major depression and things like that.

We know that when people do ERP for obsessive compulsive disorder, when it’s comorbid with depression and anxiety, it often does help relieve some of those symptoms. And there are times when they also need to be addressed separately and regular cognitive behavioral therapy or talk therapy can be very helpful for depression and for anxiety and for many other things.

And so I do think it is often a combination because it’s not often that you see somebody who just has OCD. And at the same time, we do know that exposure in response prevention is the gold standard treatment for OCD, but you’re right. You also have to have somebody who takes into account. 

There might be some other things going on, and I’m very careful to do a trauma screening with everyone I see, because I do think you have to go about that in a very cautious way. Right? And often people can be doing trauma work separately while they’re working with me on street ERP. And so I find that to be very useful. And then we coordinate things. 

Carrie: I appreciate your openness on that, because I know that there are some providers that are very rigid surrounding only using the ERP model. It’s a little bit frustrating, because there’s a level of rigidity with OCD that I feel like almost gets, there’s a parallel between that almost in the professionals that treat it, that I don’t feel like is helpful for the clients, just in general. Exposure and response prevention. There’s a lot of different things that go into that, but can you just give us kind of a brief overview.

Stacy: Sure. It’s basically gradually exposing you to triggers that typically would cause intrusive, unwanted, either thoughts, feelings, or urges, and then it works with you to prevent the compulsive response. So typically in order to be diagnosed with OCD you have to have obsessions or intrusive thoughts, images.

That are unwanted or urges and then compulsion something you’re doing that reduces those feelings of anxiety and discomfort or in a way neutralizes it. Right? And those can be internal or external. Right?

They can be things you see such as the most common ones, I guess, that you hear about are checking things repeatedly, or it might be saying prayers out loud, repeatedly, but it can also be internal. It can be mental compulsions, like trying to solve problems by replaying them over and over and over again. Did this really happen like this, or trying to reason sort of with the OCD? That’s the other reason it’s really important to work side by side with a trained therapist, because you might miss those mental compulsions. Right?

Carrie: Right.

Stacy: Sometimes it’s something as simple as I have to say this in my head or count this number in my head. Right? People don’t always recognize that as a compulsion, but it is.

Carrie: Because it becomes so automatic and just part of their process. I know that reassurance seeking is a really big compulsion that a lot of people have, like that need to talk to somebody else about it, or sometimes make confess certain things to another person.

Stacy: For sure. I know those are ones that often people don’t even realize they’re doing or they realize it, but then they get sneaky. Right? They don’t try to get reassurance without straight out asking for. Right? I know one big one for me when I was a kid was confessing. And I see that a lot with kids, especially really young kids.

That’s one of the first things I’m looking for when I’m talking to parents, are they coming to you a lot and telling you things that maybe. Another kiddo would not do. Right? 

Carrie: Right. 

Stacy: Cause I just remember that a lot with my mom and that really is reassurance seeking because then that person typically says, no, you’re fine.

That’s just a thought or that’s not something you’re really wanting to do, something to that effect. 

Carrie: So there’s a exposure hierarchy where you’re kind of trying to start with maybe some things that would be easier for people to expose themselves to, and then gradually work up to harder and harder things.

Stacy: I always call it. I have this latter hierarchy that I always use with people. We’re taking it step by step. We’re not throwing you in the deep end and saying, “good luck I hope you swim at your worst level 10 fear”. We wanna baby step it. And some people can go in bigger chunks and some people, it takes smaller chunks. And so we really are working. Alongside with our client to make sure that it’s not too much and we’re monitoring it, we’re asking them, you know, what’s your anxiety level before this exposure? What is it during? What is it after we’re having them monitor that regularly? And we’re also doing it with them in session, as much as we can, because we know that in order to create habituation, which is why this treatment works so well for OCD. 

We’re trying to really, in a sensory wire, your brain, you have this whole, your alarm system that’s going on and it’s telling you you’re in danger because of these thoughts. Images are urges when you’re not. And so you’ve developed this process of trying to rid yourself of those feelings, but it’s all based on this faulty alarm. So our job in ERP is to get that alarm when it goes off to recognize that it’s a false alarm, you’re not in any real danger. And that’s what ERP really is working towards. 

Carrie: I’d like to tell people about this analogy. It’s almost like we have these pathways in our brain and there’s a saying that  “The neurons that fire together, wire together”. Your brain has gone through this pathway of obsession, compulsion, obsession, compulsion, over and over.

And the more that you do, the compulsions and you, the more that you start to have the obsessions and you’re trying to get relief, but you’re stuck in this negative loop. It’s almost like a path through the woods. That’s really well worn. It’s been walked a lot. The sticks have been moved. It’s very easy to get through. And then when we’re trying to create behavioral change and new patterns, it’s like creating a new path in the woods. 

There’s maybe some limbs down on it. It hasn’t really been walked through that time. So of course, it’s going to be uncomfortable when we do these new things. And we expose our brain to new experiences. It’s not always going to feel good, just like walking through the tall grass. There might be some bugs or things that you might encounter, but the more that you walk down that path, the more well worn it is. Just like you were talking about with habituation, the more that you’re able to expose yourself to something and reduce that anxiety, or learn to sit with that anxiety and know that it’s not gonna kill you. It’s going to be okay. You’re going to be able to work through it. The easier that path is gonna be able to take the next time. And it’s a process for sure. 

Stacy: I love that. Actually, I love that metaphor. I think that’s a perfect explanation for what we’re trying to do is to get you to a place where you recognize.

That, yes, this is uncomfortable. And I’ll get through it and it won’t always feel like this. That’s the one thing over the years I’ve learned. Yes. Let me go back just a little bit. Everybody has the same thoughts that people with OCD have. They probably don’t have them as often, right? Because they don’t get stuck it’s they filter their filter works properly so they can take these thoughts that maybe aren’t very important and disregard them.

They have enough confidence, not certainty, but confidence that this is probably just a bad thought or just something that popped into my mind that I wouldn’t act down. The person with OCD though, for whatever reason, there’s a lot of mechanics in the brain. They get stuck on it and they say, why did I have this?

There must be a reason. What does it mean about me? And they internalize it. And then they start to think I’m bad or I’ve done. And that starts this whole, once you’ve latched on and gotten stuck on a thought, then it’s gonna be there more often. It’s like trying not to think about something. You’re gonna think about it. And so people with OCD it’s not that their thoughts are different from other people, but it’s that they get stuck on these thoughts and want to give them meaning. Why were they there?

Carrie: Stacy, I think that’s absolutely true and makes a lot of sense is that people do research about the general population. How many people have ever had a thought about driving their car off the road. There’s actually, I think about half of the people have had that type of thought and just even different thoughts about robbing a bank was one of them that I saw surprising sometimes how many people just have these thoughts go through their head. I have a fear of heights and so I will get certain places. And I shared with a friend who also has a fear of heights. I said, “do you like picture yourself falling from places because I do that”. And I thought to myself that was weird. 

I didn’t realize that other people also have some of those thoughts too. And he was like, I also have that I struggle with. So it’s things like that, that if you allow yourself to get really attached to it and you can’t help it, because sometimes it’s, there are genetic influence. That happen with OCD and sometimes you just can’t help having these thoughts. You just pop in there. You don’t choose. I don’t think every time I go to a high place, let me visualize myself falling off of here. It just comes in. It just comes outta nowhere. What if I fell off of this thing and I died, you know, or I was permanently injured in some way, shape or form. And then it makes me want to not get close to any edge of any high thing. 

Stacy: People often say, well, why does it latch on to some thoughts and not the others? The other thing we know is that it tends to latch on to things you value things you care about. One of the things that OCD seems to really attack is anything taboo, anything that would set you apart from someone else, anything that would make you bad or make you seem different. And so it really latches on and try to convince you in a sense, or have you doubt who you are as a person and the things that are most important to you. And I think that’s what makes it such a tormenting disorder. It goes after the things you care the most about. 

Carrie: And that’s where we get to talking about. We’ve had people show in the past who have had children thoughts about either their children being hurt or thoughts about harming their children, that those can come in after they have children. They never had before they had children. Oftentimes people of faith will have scrupulosity, obsessions and compulsions because their faith is really important to them. People who are concerned about getting things done the right way are going may have obsessions compulsions about the, just so warm of OCD. That makes a lot of sense. I’m curious about, because I don’t know a ton about it, your work on NO CD. Tell me a little bit about that platform website. 

Stacy: Sure. My work at NO CD is, you know, we are a very fast growing company.

And there’s a need out there for treatment. There’s a need for the right kind of treatment for OCD. OCD had, had an app for quite some time as my understanding. And then right around the time of the pandemic, there became a real need for therapy and it just has exploded. We’re helping so many people get this treatment that can be lifesaving. It really can be. We have a free app that you can download at treatmyocd.com. The cool thing about that is there’s like a little community in there. It’s sort of like a social media community where you can talk with people who also have OCD, and it’s very friendly community. That one of the most important things we’ve found is just knowing that there are other people out there who have this, who experience these things can be healing in itself, right?

Carrie: Sure.

Stacy: This not alone. And so the work that we’re doing is really trying to reach as many people as we can with affordable therapy. We know that many, many people can go upwards of 10 years before they get treatment and a proper diagnosis. And I can definitely vouch for that. I mean, I was 15 when I found out that this had a name. And the only reason I found out was 2020, this show kind of like a dateline show, aired an episode about OCD. And that’s how we found out that’s what I had. And then it would take me about seven years before I found somebody who could actually treat it, in a way that was manageable. And unfortunately back then we didn’t have the resources we have now where you can Google and you can type in and you can get just tons of information and, and misinformation. Right? That would’ve been a lifesaver back then. And, and we’re even seeing kids as young as five who are coming through for assessments and who have OCD. And so we’re catching it much sooner, which I really believe in. And I believe that that will be life-changing for them. 

Carrie: Absolutely. That’s huge. Just the ability to have early intervention. One of the things that I really like about NO CD is that you take insurance. That’s so huge. I know in the Nashville area, most of the providers, and there’s a large treatment center, most of them don’t take insurance. And so people can spend hundreds, thousands of dollars trying to get the help that they need. And some people just aren’t able to do that with their financial situation. 

Stacy: They are constantly adding more and more providers and trying to get more and more insurances to cover our services because it is such important work. And we see so many benefits. There are so many people who are getting better and it’s hard.

It’s hard to see the stories of people who can’t get the help they need, because. Insurance doesn’t cover it or, you know, it’s too expensive. And so it is, I think in general can be expensive depending on a lot of factors, but ERP in particular, but NO CD really does offer affordable payment plans for people who can’t afford. And so that’s been really great to see as well, people who wouldn’t normally get in treatment. 

That’s what we’re all about. We want everybody who’s suffering from this disorder to at least have access to that because a lot of rural communities, I know where I live, there was no specialists. And the people that I see as members often will say, well, there’s one specialist that’s, you know, within an hour range, but they have a six-month or a year wait list. That’s, what’s so amazing about NO CD is you can get in within a week. 

Carrie: Are these video session that you’re doing with people. I mean, it’s all Telehealth, right? Either through the app or the website. 

Stacy: It’s all Telehealth. There’s actually was just a study that came out about it and about how effective it is. It really is. I mean, I honestly, as somebody who has done face-to-face therapy for many, many years prior to this, I can honestly say I don’t notice a difference because in some ways it’s actually more helpful because I’m in the home with them. And I can walk with them like they’ll device throughout the house and do exposures. And so in some ways it’s actually more beneficial because I’m there with them. 

Carrie: I would agree with that. People being able to do those exposures in their own environment is really helpful and powerful. You’re able to do things that you wouldn’t be able to do in the office we have Telehealth. That’s something that people don’t realize. A lot of times they may look at Telehealth as, it’s a deficit or that’s not as good. But one thing that we learned through the pandemic when everyone was seeing their therapist online was how effective Telehealth can be. 

Stacy: Sometimes I feel like people are even more open. In this setting, then they are face to face. There’s almost like a safety net there or something, but people are more open and seem to be able to express themselves more quickly than maybe in a face-to-face setting for whatever reason.

Carrie: Awesome. I like to ask people a question as we get towards the end of the podcast. And since some of this was about your personal story and experience with OCD, I just am curious what is something that you wish you could go back and tell your younger self who is struggling? 

Stacy: I love this question. I get this question a lot, actually, cause I have had it for my entire life. I wish I could go back and say, you know, the things you’re worrying about, they don’t ever happen.

And when they do, you will get through it. You will because there’s no other choice. I wish I could get back time. I wish that I hadn’t spent so much time on this. That’s what I would tell myself.

I know it’s not a choice, obviously, as a kid, you don’t choose to have OCD and at the same time, I wish there had been someone to intervene to say, “Hey, this is a real thing, this is a disorder, this is how you treat it”. And then I would’ve been able to do that a lot sooner, but you can’t go back in time. You can’t undo the past. And so if it’s moving forward each day, I take it and I say, you know what? I’m not gonna waste any more time. Right? It’s already had a ton of time. That’s all it’s getting. And that doesn’t mean it’s perfect. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t creep up because it does. I’d be lying if I said otherwise, there are times when it’s hard, but it’s so much easier than it ever was. And I can truly say I’m 90% better and, and life is good. I wish I could just tell my little self, like, stop, stop being in your head. Just go have fun. 

Carrie: I think that’s so relevant to people with, with any mental health issue is sometimes we can get so laser focused in trying to fix something that we miss, that we’re a whole person with social relationships, hobbies, dreams, goals, desires, that this is not who you are as a person, your diagnosis. You’re a whole person who struggles in this area. And yes, it does affect some of those other domains. And I’m not making light of that, but it’s much better if we’re able to say, “Hey, I’m a person who struggles with this rather than I have this”. 

Thank you so much, Stacy, for taking the time to share with us your story and the work that you’re doing as a therapist on NOCD. We’re gonna put links in the show notes so that people who are looking for help or want to find out more information about you or NOCD. They can do that through the show notes. 

Stacy: Thank you for having me on this show. I appreciate it so much. And I hope that there are listeners out there who recognize some of these symptoms and can get some help a lot sooner. And I appreciate you doing the work you do to get the word out there about this.

Carrie: Thank you. I enjoy this episode with Stacy and I hope that you do too. We may invite her back to enter some more specific questions about scrupulosity. If you have and already please be sure to join our Facebook group. We’re really trying to create a positive and supportive environment for people with anxiety and OCD. But then a little neglect full time about giving in near and hosting things but I really want to work on. Growing back online community this year. You find the link in the show notes.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comfor

ted by God’s great love for you.

73. What are Boundaries and Why are they Important? with Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. 1 Comment on 73. What are Boundaries and Why are they Important? with Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP


Today’s special is my good friend, Erica Kesse, LPC-MHSP.  Erica and I have an interesting conversation about boundaries and why they are so important.

  • Why do you need to set healthy boundaries 
  • Reasons why people find it difficult to say no
  • Examples of internal boundaries
  • How to create boundaries between work and personal life
  • Boundaries and Christian faith
  • Erika’s book: Honey, You Need Counseling Skills and e-book on Boundaries Guide for Leaders

Links and resources

Erica Kesse
Honey, You Need Counseling Skills
Heal yourself, Ignite your Leader, Grow your Business
Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud

More Episodes

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Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope For Anxiety and OCD episode 73. I just have to do a little short shout out before we get started. Cause it’s actually coming out on my brother’s birthday. Happy birthday Paul, and hope that you have a good one. I am here with my good friend, Erica Kessie who we have known each other for over four years now. Did you realize that because.

Erica: Great.

Carrie: Erica actually through my business. It’s very first birthday party. When my business, By The Well Counseling, turned one and we were in the suite together. So that was just a really fun time. And my business just turned five this year. That was exciting too.

Erica: Wow. Five years old. What they say about five years, it takes you about five years to become profitable in your business.

Carrie: Wow. Well, fortunately for counseling, we’re able to do that a little bit earlier. Otherwise I wouldn’t still be here. Most businesses don’t last to five years though, right? 

Erica: They don’t.

Carrie: So that’s, that’s exciting.

Erica: Yes, it is. Congratulations.

Carrie: Thanks. I wanted you to give us an update Erica, on your business, because I know that some things have shifted changed from when we recorded last, that was on episode nine, which was the very end. The very end of 2020, what’s been going on in your business in the last year and a half.

Erica: So many wonderful things. The more that you’re in business, the more that you get clear on who you serve and how you want to serve them. I have coined myself now, the leader’s healer, cause I wanted to broaden my target out to all leaders. Be mothers, doctors, nurses professionals, because I recognize with my own experience that sometimes leaders feel lost and in order to not be lost. It’s important for you to make sure you take care of yourself. That’s so important and putting yourself first, those who have servant hearts, right? They are leaders and they put everyone before themselves. So it’s important that they take care of themselves, do their own work. 

Carrie: Right.

Erica: About own anxiety and their depression and imposter syndrome. And also if they do their own work, they will also be doing something that’s so important. And dear to my heart is to do no harm. I think a lot of people don’t talk about that. But there are many circumstances in which Carrie knows that counselors and therapists and even other leaders do harm in ways, because they haven’t did their own work. So I’m the leaders, healer and the entrepreneur therapist. I provide professional training and speaking, as well as civil little counseling and coaching alignment, executive coaching.

Carrie: One of the things that you do that I really appreciate is you help businesses and leaders, like you were saying, “understand the importance of counseling skills and how those can be useful in their business environment”.

Erica: I have a book called “Honey”. You need counseling skills. And these are soft skills as well as life skills. It is vision casting. A lot of even entrepreneurs don’t know the difference between vision and mission. So vision casting, mission creation, time management, communication skills, and thrive planning, which is it’s a strategic and personal plan to thrive. We have a plan for everything else. Why don’t we have a plan to thrive?

So there’s thrive plan for that.

Carrie: Awesome. Today we’re talking about boundaries, which I’m really excited about, I just.

Erica: I’m so excited.  

Carrie: I’ve decided to dial some things back on the podcast and do some like 1 0 1 type episode. Let’s consider this boundaries 1 0 1 there’s lots of conversations we could have on boundaries. We’re gonna keep it really simple today for people because it’s a word that’s thrown around. And a lot of people don’t really understand what it means or how they can start to begin to even look at boundaries in their own lives or setting them. We’re in a society right now, unfortunately, where all, all kinds of lines are being blurred, lines between work and home, lines between professional relationships and personal relationships.

I asked a group of therapists today, I said, is professionalism dead. And we kind of had a chuckle about it, but I was serious, you know.

Erica: Yes. 

Carrie: Because there’s a lot of people that are in professional roles that are acting in unprofessional ways. So this conversation on boundaries. Is super important in the same way between client and therapists. There have been lots of different ways that receiving therapy has changed. Whereas maybe, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago we would never have texted with a client. And I still don’t text with clients in that way, but some therapists, that’s how they set their schedule. We have to kind of talk about some of these things of boundaries lines, and we won’t get into all the ethics today.

Although that cause that’s gonna be another episode. I know that’s something that Erica is really passionate about is, good ethics for professionals and leaders. Let’s talk about what is a boundary, how would you define that for somebody? 

Erica: I wanna keep it as simple as possible. There’s a book called it by Henry Cloud. He’s an older book and it’s called “Boundaries”. And the way he explains it is like having a fence in front of your house. Certain people can come in the fence. For example, your mailbox is outside the fence. The mailman only goes and handles that particular part of your property. Then you have individuals like the Amazon man. He comes to the door and he drops your package he’s off, but he doesn’t come in. Correct? Or you can even say, leave it there and don’t knock. Right? When you send message, when you create your package, then you have people that can come be in your living room, your kitchen. 

They can even walk down the hall sometimes and be in the spare bedroom, but only certain people can be in your master bedroom, in your bathroom. Think about it that way. It makes it really simple on how we have to isolate out who deserves to be where in our lives we are our house. This is our temple. Okay. And only certain people should be able to come through our eyes, through our ears and to allow them to be a part of our space. These are guidelines for ourselves and for others to keep us safe. 

Carrie: There’s internal boundaries. I think that we can even set within ourselves. I think a lot of times we think about boundaries with other people, but there’s internal boundaries that we can set within ourselves. Just kind of knowing our move and groove of life. For example, and I know this has to do with other people. But for therapists in terms of like how many sessions that we choose to do in a day, or, you know, how many clients we see, how many of them are going to be new clients. I know for me, it’s harder to meet with new people than it is to meet with people that I’ve known for a long time. 

I already know how they’re going to act, to flow. They’re not gonna read me the wrong way or if, if I say something funny, they’re gonna be like, what is that? You know, they’ll call me out on it. Whereas if I have a new person, I have to be a little bit more cautious about what I say, how are they gonna receive this and so forth. So that’s kind of maybe an internal boundary within myself that I might set for myself, or I could tell myself, you know, a boundary is that I’m gonna shut off all my electronics at a certain time so that I can get a good night’s sleep. Can you think of any of those that you have for yourself? 

Erica: Oh yes. Internal boundaries. AKA your discipline, your own discipline. I have a certain discipline as 12:00 I take lunch. No one has that time. One o’clock is usually my nap time. If I don’t have a nap, I usually have a nap another time during the day. I am Adam adamant about it.

I need a nap. It’s just good for me to have my siesta every day. And those are internal boundaries, but I have other boundaries regarding myself as far as making sure that I don’t overextend myself. I have to watch myself every day. Not to have the savior complex. I’m sorry, I’m adding in things that are more complex.

This is the perfect actually podcast to talk about the savior complex. None of us is Jesus. We need to not try to be Jesus.

Carrie: That’s right. We’re not out here to rescue everyone who’s in crisis. 

Erica: Yes. And so we have to decide to remind ourselves. I have to remind myself every day, I call my reminder not to overextend myself, to watch all my obligations and watch my schedule to make sure I’m not doing too much boundaries of making sure that physically making sure that I eat. And I’m cognizant of everything that I put in my mouth. So really being intentional is my internal boundaries.

Carrie: Why do you think that boundaries are so important? Obviously what you’re talking about is boundaries relating to self care. Why else are boundaries important?

Erica: Boundaries let you know exactly where you end and somebody else or the environment begins. It’s a great way to make sure that you have all the things that you need and that you’re cognizant of all the components of your life in order for you to have harmony. It’s important for you to have harmonies physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, professionally, all these ways. And we have to be cognizant of doing that. That’s the hard work. That’s a lot of work actually to do, but it it’s the kind of work that we should be doing instead of putting ourselves out there. To help other people. It’s so easy for us to extend ourselves, to help other people and neglect ourselves. 

So it’s so important to have boundaries with yourself and to be cognizant of taking care of yourself, because guess what, you know, everybody’s heard this, you gotta put your option mask on in order to help other people, or one thing that I say, going back to that vision, that we were talking about my vision for myself, which that’s why this is a boundary as well. Is, I will if I like and love myself so authentically and thoroughly that I overflow onto those who stand close. Part of that boundary is, I’m not gonna seek out people to help. They will stay close if they want my help. And I will make sure I focus on loving myself and going a step more into liking myself.

So sometimes we may love ourselves and we may not like ourselves. Right? So we have to like ourselves too, and know what we know like and trust about our self.

Carrie: Boundaries really connect with our values. We really connect with what’s important to us. So if I say that my daughter is important and you have a daughter too. 

Erica: Yes.

Carrie: If we say our daughters are important to us, and then we don’t set up boundaries to protect that time that we have with our children. If I don’t take the time, set up boundaries to protect time that I have with my spouse or time for church and investing in my spiritual health. Not just church, but time at home where I’m reading, where I’m praying, then my values are not in alignment with my actions.

And then that causes all kinds of anxiety and internal conflict, right? I wanna be with my daughter, but I’m doing all of this over here. I’m taking on extra responsibilities. I don’t need to, you kind of call me out and say, you know, you’ve just had a child. Your normal is changed care. You have to accept that. You’re not gonna be able to go back and do all the things that you used to be able to do, which was a good call out, by the way, you know, you need to have friends like Erica in your life to call you out. 

Erica: Well, you call me out too, is the end goal. Why are you doing this? This is so helpful for me, who run off trying to help people like what’s the end goal. We gotta get our money. We need to make sure we are. Moving towards getting money, not just doing all these things, because that’s how we need food, clothes, and shelter. That’s why we work. She calls me out too.  

Carrie: Don’t do too much. I wanna talk about examples of situations that the people experience in life. That cause them to have difficulty setting boundaries. It caused them difficulty to be able to say no, or say, man, that’s an excellent opportunity, but it just doesn’t fit in my life right now. You know, maybe later, let, let’s talk about that another time. I mean, there’s lots of different ways that you can say no to something or say yes to something, but what are some situations people go through that cause them difficult their boundaries.

Erica: That’s a great question, Carrie. I don’t think people talk about the situations, 

Carrie: Right? 

Ericaa: When you grow up, you as a child, sometimes don’t wanna do something, right? And then your parent tells you you’re gonna do it. Okay. I have to abide by this person or I have to please. Most children spend time wanting to please their parent, guess what? Then they grow up being people pleasers. Then you have a problem saying no that’s having poorest boundaries. When you are unable to say no and get yourself involved in everybody trying to help people. Then if you have some kind of trauma or you’re a pain that happens in your childhood, you’ll have rigid boundaries around certain things.

Scenarios would be, you have a balls. 

There’s a power differential between you too. You don’t want to what lose your job or being seen in a negative way or retaliation in any kind of way. So you say yes to things that are against your values. You can’t go spend time with your daughter because your boss wants you to work extra hours. There’s so many scenarios with our partners. We may not want to do something like they wanna watch anime all night. You’re like, I gotta go to bed and they’re like, we don’t never spend no quality time with me. That’s a guilt trip, FYI. Let’s going into those manipulative tools. Anyway have to be able to say the boundaries, but you may have a rift in the relationship that you don’t wanna experience because you had to assert yourself and say, “I don’t wanna do this”.

So you have to have good communication skills. You have to be able to assert yourself. You gotta be brave to hold your boundaries. 

Carrie: Let’s talk about parenting for a little bit, because this is a huge issue. If you had parents who were like, I’m right, you’re wrong. I’m the adult, you’re the child. It reminds me of that dad in Matilda.

She’s smart enough to realize that some of the things that he’s doing are wrong. Right? As a child, she’s like, wait a minute, dad, that’s wrong. You’re cheating people up to go into a movie analogy, but that’s basically what he tells her, you know, I’m right you’re wrong. Then we’re not teaching kids to think for themselves.

And there’s no autonomy there that’s learned. So it’s, it’s finding this balance. You wanna set boundaries for your kids, but you wanna help them understand why those boundaries are there. 

Erica: Yes.

Carrie: There’s a reason. There’s a difference between saying don’t you ever talk to a stranger, you know, and, and threats and those types of things, I’ll spank your behind If you do that and a parent who says, Hey, we don’t talk to strangers and let me sit down and tell you why I’m telling you, you don’t just run up to the guy that says he has puppies to show you. There are people out there that want to do your harm. Here’s the lines that are drawn. You know, I’m asking you to pick up after yourself because one day you’re gonna be an adult with a house and you’re gonna have it. Learn how to manage a household, not just your room. So if you can’t pick up your room, you’re not gonna be able to manage a household.  

Erica: Oh my goodness. You understand this because also you used to work with children as well. And I also, we both specialize in planning, express for arts therapies. We understand that we need to respect them and honor their thoughts and honor their behavior and try to empathize the reason behind the behavior that they’re exhibiting. I always find that it’s the parents. If I need to get the parents straight, cause it’s not the kid, the kid does need a healthy relationship with somebody who was going to honor them, who was gonna respect and listen to them. You have to teach your children communication. You have to let them know the reason behind it. You don’t just say it’s because I said so. 

Carrie: Right. Everybody at one point or another, I’m sure there’ll be some point where I say it, you know, so , I’m not gonna call anybody out for that. But I think growing up in a type of household where the boundaries were not just strict, cause a lot of people grew up in a strict household, but where the boundaries were too rigid really. I mean, you got in trouble practically for breathing in some of those households. It can be, people have a really, really hard time setting boundaries because they were always told, no, you can’t do that. And it was very much that authority position. 

They probably felt less than. And, you know, growing up in some of those environments or let’s talk about something even further where there were environments of abuse, there were boundary lines being crossed. In that person’s childhood, it doesn’t matter what kind of abuse it was, physical, emotional sexual. There was a line that was crossed and it was basically told your rights, your needs, you know, were not valued, were not important at all. And there was a violation there. And so people who have had their boundaries violated often have a hard time setting them for themselves. I mean, is that something that you’ve seen as well.

Erica: Definitely. They don’t understand what healthy boundaries is. So let’s explain what that is let’s define that. And then also go and look things up. One thing that I say is don’t listen and wait for someone to define things for you. This is what I tell my daughter. Go and find out for yourself. Look it up, go to the library, Google it, ask around. That’s one reason how abuse happens is the isolation of the information and your experience with an exposure to things. So always define things for yourself. Let’s define healthy boundaries. That’s when you are able to say yes to something or no to something based on how you feel, you understand how you feel about the circumstance and it aligns with your values. Going back to what you said, your values, and you understand how to assert your boundaries and say clearly and not have a problem with saying clearly. Yes, I can do this because, or no. And guess what period. 

You don’t even have to give any definition. If you don’t feel like it, you don’t wanna do it. It’s simple. You can say no and that’s it. And I know may, sometimes people feel like, I can’t say no, there’s gonna be backlash if I say no, but a lot of time. It is you that’s stopping you from saying no, it’s your fears. So you have to interact with your fear and ask that fear. What’s why are you coming up? What’s going on? There is fear and there’s love. So how can we bring love into this circumstance to kinda dissipate this fear that you have that you can’t say no for something you don’t wanna do. 

Carrie: And it’s okay to have physical boundaries with people. I think I wanna throw that out there. 

Erica: Yes.

Carrie: If you don’t feel comfortable, some people are huggers. I like hugs, but I’m more of a person that I want to hug people that are close to me, that I know really well, that I’m really comfortable with and have had that kind of relationship. Some people just wanna hug you the first time they meet you. I’m not quite Into that, you know, but, I’ll probably have an uncomfortable look on my face and kind of do one of those tap hugs or something like that, where you just kind of lightly tap ’em on the back. Hey, it things, things like that. If you have somebody maybe that you feel like is too touchy, you know how the, some people just wanna touch you when they talk to you. 

Maybe this is not as much cause of COVID maybe we’re we’re keeping a little more distance. I don’t know. I remember there was one time where I was talking to somebody. And a kind of a dinner thing and they just kept touching me. And I didn’t say anything about it, but I thought, well, this is really, you know, kind of odd and thinking about it just in terms of interpersonal context and things. But if you don’t want somebody to hug you, or if you’re in a dating relationship and you’re not comfortable.

Erica: I’m think about that Carrie all the way.

Carrie: With certain things, then it’s okay for you to say, I’m not there yet in the relationship. I don’t wanna kiss you yet. You know, I’m not there. Those are examples of physical boundaries that we can set for ourselves. And if you’re in a dating relationship, you probably need to have some of those conversations pretty early about where you’re at, what your expectations are, what you want, what you don’t want, because those can really go south fast. If you’re not upfront with the other person absolutely.

Erica: It’s all about having the right fit. If you feel like you can’t say no to someone, then you probably need to investigate that relationship about why you feel unsafe to say no.

Carrie: And regardless you brought up bosses earlier, and if you were an adult

to adult relationship. That’s what we’re trying to seek out. Even though there is some power differential there, you do have to respect your boss. You do have to listen to them. You do have maybe, probably some things from your job that you can’t say no to, but let’s say for example, that your boss hires you. This happens all the time, America, right?  Your boss hires you and says, “Hey, you’re gonna work Monday through Thursday, 10 hour or you know, you’re only gonna put in 40 hours a week. That’s all we’re gonna ask from you”. And then next thing you know, you’re into the job two months later. Well, you know, we need somebody come in on Fridays. We just don’t have anybody come in on Fridays. And can you please, we really are gonna need you here this Friday. That’s an example where somebody has a freedom, perfect freedom to set a boundary, even though that’s their boss, even though they’re in authority role.

Erica: Yes, very much so like right now we have the great resignation that’s happening. Cause most people recognize that I don’t wanna be disrespected. I don’t wanna be disregarded for my personal life. And this is my job description. I’m supposed to be able to deliver this, but you also have to be courageous enough to speak up and say, that’s what it is.

Everybody knows the 80 20 rule when you’re working 80% of the people are not working or lacks of days old on how they work. And 20% are doing most of the work, right? Don’t be 20%. You have to decide that I told plenty of my clients, you should probably work. Give them 20% of your energy. And she actually got an award for her work ethic. After she did it, but also I told another lady who was having heart issues and stress and anxiety about working to slow down and only give them 20%. And her heart palpitations stopped. 

Carrie: Wow.

Erica: Sometimes we do it to ourselves. A lot of this. Is, we have to step back now. It’s hard to do it in a job that you went in there and I’m gonna fix it all. And now everybody think you gonna keep on fixing it all. But if you go to another job or you could try to fix help with the boundaries, boundaries are easier with new circumstances sometimes because. 

Carrie: That’s true. They’re definitely.

Erica: You can say this is who I am and they don’t know you to be a pushover. They don’t know you to be a doormat or a people please. But when you really wanna decide for yourself that boundaries need to happen, sometimes environment has to an environment change has to happen too.

Carrie: I don’t think I can stand behind giving your employer 20%. I think you’ve got to really work as an unto the Lord, you know, as a scriptural principle. And so I think that you have to put forth the effort to do a good job, but there’s, there’s a difference between doing a job where it’s like you said, kind of killing your health. And, and if you’re at that point, then I think that a conversation needs to happen to with your employer or your spouse. If you need to take a step back or whatever, to be able to say, you know, this job really is affecting my physical health, my mental, emotional health. And sometimes people have to either work less or they have to pick a less stressful job or different work environment. Maybe they need to be working from home. 

Whatever the case is there are a variety of different boundaries and it’s okay to say to your employer, you know, I feel like I’m doing too much. I feel like the workload is too heavy. I don’t think that I need some help with this. How can we delegate some of these responsibilities? Is that okay? That those types of conversations I think are super important because unfortunately not just employers, but if someone sees that you are willing to have your boundaries crossed time after time after time again, like if you come in on that Friday, just this Friday. And then next thing you know, two Fridays later. You know, we need you again on Friday. It’s like, no, I agreed to work Monday through Thursday was our agreement. I’m not gonna be able to come in on Friday. 

I had a friend a long time ago who, one of his first jobs he worked at McDonald’s when he was a teenager. And he said to the people, when he got hired, he said, “Hey, I just want you to know that I will work any day, but Sunday I’ll work, you know, the evening shift I’ll work late at night. I’ll I’ll work in the morning whenever I can”. Obviously it was the summer or something. He wasn’t in school. I’ll work here, but I will not work on Sundays. And so is that okay with you? I just want you to know that, is that okay? They said, “sure, that’s fine we can accommodate your schedule”. So the first time they scheduled him for a Sunday, he said, “now you remember that I told you I’d work any day, but Sunday and I’d work all these different shifts. I’m going to church on Sunday and I won’t be here. I just wanted to let you know that ahead of time, because that was our agreement”. And you know what, they had to honor that at the end of the day, cause that was what they had agreed to. But had he said, they put me on the schedule. I’ve gotta do it. I’ve gotta go in. They would’ve probably continued to schedule him for some days. And then that would’ve been a violation of his, not just his boundary, but his values of church and spiritual rights.

Erica: His religious rights as well. I wanted to go back really quick to say that most of my clients are really high functioning individuals that give like 200% work. So I have to say 20% to help them to edge off.

Cause if I told them only give them 50%, they would still give them 150%. So I’m trying to get them to edge off and not do so much because they’re a lot of their energy, cause they’re just high functioning individuals who feel like they have to work very, very hard. Those are usually my clients. I have the high functioning anxiety clients most of the time.

Carrie: So you, you have to throw out something drastic to get them to dial it down just a little bit. Okay, let’s talk about how do you know a boundary has been crossed? 

Erica: Great question. First of all, you can feel it. It’s a gut feeling. 

Carrie: Yes.

Erica: You can feel it. The thing is we ignore our feelings because going back to what we said about growing up, we had those good feelings and our parents shut it down. We were silenced. So you think, this is the feeling that I always have here, but I had to do it anyway. So I’m just gonna go ahead and do it anyway, like surrender to.  I’m saying if you have this feeling, listen to it and acknowledge it. I feel statement is amazing. Go ahead and figure out what the feeling is. I feel irritated, frustrated. It doesn’t matter who this is, whoever you’re talking to, you can say this statement. I feel when you, whatever they did, I would like you to there’s that boundary. I would like you to whatever you would like them to do. That’s very explicit on what they can do to help you not feel frustrated. Now sometimes people do not respect your boundaries. 

First of all, if they don’t respect your boundaries, then you have to go ahead and recognize that in this relationship, this person does not respect me. You have to decide if you’re gonna continue to be disrespected, or you’re want to figure out a way that this relationship is something that you maybe need to not have in your life.

And the other thing is, other than disrespecting you, you have to make sure that the individuals are clear, very clear on the boundary that you set. A lot of times, we’re kind of, you make me unhappy. I will like you to make me happy no like.

Carrie: What in the world does that mean? 

Erica: Right. What does happiness to you? So that means that you gotta do some internal work to know what your boundaries are. I think a lot of times people wanna have boundaries. But they haven’t figured out what they like, how they want people to treat them. What do you want? I ask you for that. I ask a child that what they like want they know.

Carrie: Yes. 

Erica: I know because they’re so accustomed to accommodating others, especially women, Carrie, let’s talk about that, that story that you said it was a man.

I haven’t heard many stories like that when a woman doesn’t  to it and go ahead and go with. 

Carrie: I mean, you look at women are much less likely to negotiate their salary going into a job. Because they just feel like, well, someone’s giving me a number. That’s what they’re comfortable with.That’s just what I’m supposed to take. And going from there, you know, that’s a boundary. If you say, you know, I have the skills and experience and I can show on paper that I should be making this much money or somebody else offered me this, are you able to match that? Or I need to be making my current salary. That’s okay to have that boundary. I think in terms of going back to like, feeling like a boundary has been crossed for me, it usually comes up as anger. 

A lot of times, like, I’ll feel this feeling of anger. And a lot of times, you know, I’ve been in business five years. I talked about that. And so when I feel like something’s not working and it was frustrating me, I would say, okay, Something’s frustrating me about this process or this system, what do I need to change? But that anger came first and that was a good gut check for me. Okay, I’m frustrated, I’m angry. Why am I frustrated and angry? Okay. Well, because maybe I took on this client that wasn’t the best fit for me. You know, maybe it was a referral from a colleague and I felt like I really needed to take that person on.

Maybe it was somebody really begged me. They couldn’t find a therapist. And so those days are long gone. If I don’t feel like people are a good fit, I don’t have any problems, you know, referring them out or something. 

Other things, I’m just thinking of other things that came up were phone calls. I was spending a lot of time on the phone with, you know, people that hadn’t really researched who I was or what I do and was trying to, I literally was trying to help everyone that called me on the phone, whether they wanted anger management classes. And I didn’t have anything to do with that, whether they wanted, you know, something for custody issues with their children, which I didn’t do. And so here I was trying to find resources for people and pick up the phone every time I called, because I thought, well, these people really need help and I need to be the one to help them.

I had to really let that go because. I recognize you cannot help every person that calls you on the phone. That is impossible. You’re not the right person to help everybody that calls on the phone. Some of them need other things and it’s okay. You don’t have to pick it up every time it calls, you can let it go to voicemail and you can return the call later. It’s gonna be okay. It’s not gonna be a huge thing, but that was some hard boundaries for myself in terms of, setting boundaries just in my business, interpersonally in terms of working with clients. I just know that for me, a lot of times it comes up as anger or as a gut feeling, the gut feeling is like, you know, it’s just like this. Something’s just not right about that. 

Erica: Dare they did that to me, you know.

Carrie: You feel that sense of like and dictation.

Erica: It does not feel good. It’s like a gut and hard feeling. And I immediately, I think about my feelings, like, what is that? What is that? I immediately go to what’s the feeling. Okay. And I do, and I feel saving, even if I don’t say it to that person, I have to write it. I have to say it to get it out of me. Otherwise it’s going to just eat at me. And then I figure out a way to talk with them. Sometimes I just write it in my journal and it’ll all work out on its own in some kind of way in a conversation without me specifically saying anything, especially if I’m really mad about it.

Carrie: Okay. That’s good. I mean, I think that that’s a really good pathway. Of like teaching people how to do that work, how to tune in internally and then try to figure out like, okay, what’s the next step? What is that next step that I need to take here? 

Erica: Usually when you feel that you’re triggered in some kind of way, what is it taking you back to going back to a scenario where you were disrespected or dishonored or felt the same feeling before?

Carrie: That’s good talking about trauma trigger. That come up for people.

Erica: Because you didn’t set a boundary. So then it’s always gonna keep showing up, cause the boundary’s not there.

Carrie: Let’s talk about how do boundaries align with the Christian faith? I think people have this view that if I’m a Christian kind of going back to, I’ve gotta help everybody.

I’m to be loving towards people. And if I say no to them, I’m not being loving towards them. But I mean, we kind of gave that example of parents and their children. You can’t always say yes to your children because that’s gonna lead to disaster. There are times where you need to say no for their own, even personal safety.

Erica: Boundaries is part of the Christian faith. I know that it says, okay. And we kind of capitalize on that part of being selfless and don’t be selfish, but the Bible does talk about, like, there is boundaries, the 10 commandments are boundaries there. 

Carrie:Yes they are. 

Eric: You know, there are other things that are told to us lot and his wife don’t look back. Right? That was a boundary. And then we saw the consequences. You have to have consequences too, to your boundaries. You can’t just have these boundaries. It’s like you are a Chihuahua, Chihuahua. You’re a Chihuahua barking saying you, this is your boundary, but you’re not doing anything. And people are gonna keep pushing over. What’s the consequence that there has to be some kind of consequence. To pushing over your boundaries. 

I just wanted to mention that, but in nutrition faith, we have boundaries. They are parents throughout the Bible. I don’t think people look for those because I’m gonna say some, I’m gonna say some, I think that a lot of people who may be leading flocks want them to follow along with what they are saying. So if you tell them, empower them in too many ways. They then are thinking for themselves and not following along. So they’re now share that kind of information. 

Carrie: Well, I, and I think that’s why we have to go to following Jesus in the Bible versus following man, you know. Because not everyone is following Jesus in the Bible who is in leadership.

Erica: Too many times. I’ve had some scenarios of, man, pastors doing many things that should not have happened or I felt it. I was like, this is not supposed to be right. But it wasn’t like no one said to me that this person is not supposed to do it, but he’s up in front of me telling me that the gospel telling me the way to go, but it doesn’t feel right. You always have this feeling. It doesn’t matter what kind of leader it’s there. You have to listen to yourself. You gotta tap in and find your own answers.

Carrie: I picked out a couple of Jesus examples for how do boundaries align with the Christian faith? There was in Matthew 12 Jesus refuses to perform a miracle.

So people were saying to him, perform a miracle to show us, you know, that you’re the Christ. And the funny thing is Jesus was already performing miracles. By this point, it wasn’t like this was gonna be a new thing. They had already seen evidence that he was a Messiah and he told them, no, I’m not gonna do that because you’re basically you’re unbelieving. And you’re showing that you don’t have faith. You know, and I’m not gonna give you a sign. 

Erica: I’m not gonna be a politic for you like. 

Carrie: Not gonna perform miracles on demand. There was a time in Luke nine 60 that the verse, you know, let the dead bury their own dead. There was a man who he had said, Jesus said, come follow me. The man said no. First let me bury my father. And Jesus said, well, let the dead bury their own dead. It wasn’t, a cruel heartless type of thing. He was wanting to wait around for like some year long ritual that was gonna be happening. It was, what do you call that? It’s more about tradition than actually. Just a regular funeral. We have, we have probably really quick funerals compared to what they did back then in the whole process.

So Jesus was like, no, you really need to come follow me. You know, you don’t need to basically make an excuse about why you can’t come at this point. I mean, Jesus told the rich young ruler, he had to sell all his stuff too. It wasn’t really about him selling his stuff. It was more about your heart’s not in the right place. 

Erica:Yes. 

Carrie: To be following me. So these are all different examples where Jesus really put people in their place in a lot of ways. And times that we look at that and we’re like, that’s really radical that he said that, or I don’t know if you do that. Sometimes I read the Bible. I’m like, I can’t believe he just said that. Wow. That was. 

Erica: I love it. 

Carrie: You know, that was intense. . 

Erica: My daughter has the Bible now we’re reading again. I loved reading the Bible. It’s great like if you read it, so I think people take, read it as if it’s a book and it’s great. It”s so much going on to so many heroes. It says that Jesus is a first superhero and that there’s sons of other heroes like Ruth and like, Esther, it’s just like, it’s radical. It’s a, it really talks about all the situations that we have even now in trying to relate to others. Jesus does plenty of parables talking about boundaries and how you should interact and what’s your value system and how to have your certain Christian values that I feel like are not upheld. They should be in a real authentic way. 

Carrie: I was so glad that we are having this conversation, you know, essentially a, a boundaries 1 0 1, because there’s so many people that misunderstand what a boundary is, or they don’t think that they can set them with a boss, with a parent, with a spouse and boundaries are for many different areas of our lives. We have to learn how to set them respectfully and so fort. Let’s talk about boundaries with a parent, because I think that’s another one people carry their childhood into their adulthood of, you know, well, this person is my parent. I have to honor them and I have to respect them according to the Bible. So I can’t say no. If my parent wants to call me at all hours of the night or if my parent wants to just drop by, I just have to be okay with that because that’s my mother. That’s my father. 

Erica: I’m the one to talk to about this. Or I was in my internship, I was trying to create this group called “Toxic mom relationships and how to manage them”. So when I talk to every people, just, you know, one on one, every last person has some kind of issue. With they mama or they daddy, or both of.

Carrie: We call those family of origin issues. Everybody has to deal with their family of origin issues. 

Erica: This is actually the first, I think people they’ll have problems in their relationships, their intimate relationships, you know, sexual intimate relationships.

And it be the same problems that they have with their parent, like the same boundary issues, being people pleaser, or thinking that you have to say yes to everything. When you become an adult, like first of all, you were supposed to be  expect  when you were a child, maybe didn’t happen. You have to understand.

Now you’re an adult. Okay. And you’re taking care of yourself. And even if you’re not, cause I have a lot of college students, I have individuals who are still on their parents’ insurance until they’re 26 and they’ll think, I can’t say no, cause  I’m still tied to them. You have to decide. What’s right for you.

Your life is your life. It’s not your parents. I think a lot of times, some people have issues with feeling like they are connection or, you know, a part of their parent instead of them being a whole person and they have their own thoughts and their own feelings and their own way of doing things that fits best for them. And you have to going back to being brave. Being brave to say and speak up for yourself. Now, let me just tell you if your parents love you, love transcends all of this, and it’s opposed to transcend all of this. And if they reject you because you asserted your boundary, then maybe later on, they will think more about this relationship and not. Let it be severed, but you get to have your boundaries and it’s important that you have them and you have to assert them. You have to be clear on what and who you are. 

Cause a lot of clients say, my parents don’t even know who I am. You haven’t shared who you are with them because you’re afraid to share who you are with them. And then a lot of parents say, all my kid only calls me once a week or I only see ’em on holidays, probably because you have no idea who they are and they are afraid to show you who they are. And it’s such a sad circumstance to live in a life where a person brought you into this world, but you can’t share who you are with them.

Carrie: That is a sad state. This has been such a good chat and I hate to cut it off, but I know we’ve gone a little while and maybe at some point I’ll do boundaries 2.0 or, or we can do it or something like that. We’ll figure it out. But I think that this has been a great intro for people to understand really what’s a boundary and hopefully it’s got people thinking like, maybe through the podcast, like maybe there is a boundary that I need to set with myself or with other people in my life and knowing that. Not only is that okay to do so, but that’s a healthy thing. And we can follow, you know, in Jesus’ example, in terms of, of setting boundaries. 

Erica: Yes. Going back to the book I recommended was Henry Clouds “Boundaries”. It is actually Christian based. So if you’re listening to this podcast, it puts a lots of information in there about Christian examples of how you should move in your boundaries in that you are not meant to be selfless, but you have boundaries. And I do wanna be before I end, is to talk about hunting unique counseling skills, because that book is a book that you can get on Amazon that I wrote and boundaries is in that book. 

So I talk about it in that book, as well as other counseling skills that are needed, like communication and time management.

And lastly, I have a freebie. Because it’s, I am this boundary thing is so important. So I have a freebie it’s 11 page ebook called “Boundaries guide four leaders”. You can get that at www dot heal yourself, grow.org. Heal yourself. grow.org. And you can get free freebie on how to even discover and set boundaries under eight categories and even affirmations in order to hold your boundaries and reiterate your boundaries to others.

Carrie: Okay. And we’ll put those links in the show notes too. If people are listening to this in their car and didn’t have a chance to write that down so they can go back to the show notes and, find the links in there to your book and to the, boundaries resource that you have there. That’s awesome.

Erica: It’s so great. I love, I love talking with you. 

Carrie: We have good times. I had so much fun having this conversation with Erica about boundaries 1 0 1. Stay tuned for boundaries 2 0 2. I may do that as a solo episode another time. We do have some great interviews coming up in the next month on breath prayer and on exposure and response prevention. So stay tuned for those episodes. If you like our show, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with someone else. So I know that you know, someone in your life probably who’s having difficulty with setting boundaries or they feel like if they set a boundary, that’s somehow un-Christian of them to do so. So feel free to forward this episode onto them. Thank you so much for listening. 

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling.

Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

71. No Longer Plagued by Fear and Depression: A Personal Story with Stormie Omartian

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 71. No Longer Plagued by Fear and Depression: A Personal Story with Stormie Omartian

We are privileged to have Stormie Omartian on the show today to explore a and deeply personal conversation on fear, forgiveness, and healing.

Episode Highlights:

  • Stormie’s journey of healing from a broken relationship with her mother, navigating depression, anxiety, and even suicidal thoughts.
  • The role of forgiveness in healing.
  • Practical strategies for confronting fear, including the use of scripture like 2 Timothy 1:7: “God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind.”
  • Insights into how fear can either draw us closer to God or paralyze us, depending on our response.
  • The importance of community and prayer support in finding strength and hope.

Episode Summary:

In Episode 71 of Christian Faith and OCD, I sit down with bestselling author Stormie Omartian, whose book The Power of Praying Through Fear has impacted so many. Stormie shares her powerful testimony of overcoming years of emotional pain and fear rooted in a broken relationship with her mother. Her journey through depression, anxiety, and even suicidal thoughts shows the depth of God’s grace in the darkest moments. She talks about how forgiving her mother over and over again, while leaning into God’s strength, was crucial to her healing.

In our conversation, we also explore how fear can either pull us closer to God or push us away, depending on how we respond. Fear is a natural part of life, but as Stormie so beautifully points out, it’s important to discern the difference between fear that protects us and fear that paralyzes us.

We also dive into the importance of community and prayer support. Stormie encourages listeners to seek out prayer partners who will stand with them in faith, reminding us that God desires our wholeness. Both of us acknowledge that fear and anxiety might be lifelong battles for some, but surrendering those struggles to God and relying on His strength is essential for finding peace.

If you’re struggling with fear, anxiety, or the challenge of forgiving those who have hurt you, this episode is filled with encouragement and practical wisdom. You’ll walk away reminded of the redemptive power of God’s love and grace—and the truth that He is always working, even in the midst of our fear.

Links and Resources:

https://www.stormieomartian.com/
https://www.facebook.com/stormieomartianofficial

More Personal Story Episodes

Transcript

Carrie: Episode 71. I’m very excited to bring you this interview with Stormie Omartian. Some of you may be familiar with her books, such as Power of a Praying Wife. She’s also written a book called Power of Praying Through Fear. While I’m sure Stormie and I could have had a long discussion about her book. This episode is more about her personal story of coming to Christ and how Christ delivered her from the intense fear and depression that was over her life, lagging her on a daily basis. 

There’s so much hope and encouragement that can be received from hearing other people’s testimony. So I hope that that is what you get out of this episode. Normally I don’t put trigger warnings on the podcast if you’ve been listening for a while, because there are so many different things that probably that we talk about that could trigger people. However, I do want to make mention that topics of child abuse, mental illness in the family and suicide come up in this episode.

Carrie: Stormie, I knew that you had written books on prayer and I actually received some as, wedding presents. One of the sweetest things that someone did for me was an older lady in my fiance at the time’s church. And because we started going to my church after we got married. There was an older woman from his church who sat down with me and got me coffee. And we just talked about, you know, how marriage can be hard. And she gave me The Power Of A Praying Wife. And she said, “this is something that’s really helped me in my marriage. And I just wanted to give that to you”. And it was just probably one of the best wedding presents that you could get is just some mentorship from someone who’s been there and been in the trenches. And gone through some hard things. So that was really wonderful. And I know that you have several books on The Power of A Praying Husband and Praying For Your Children and so forth.

Stormie: Yes.

Carrie: And I didn’t know until really my assistant brought it to my attention that you struggled with anxiety and phobias earlier in your life. I was curious about hearing that story from you. 

Stormie: Bless the lady who gave you that book. I wish I had had that book when I first got married. You know, it took me a number of years after I was married. To figure that book out. I mean, to learn enough, to be able to write that book. And so it really changed our marriage. When I learned how to pray like that. The Power Of Praying Wife and Power Of Praying Husband tells you how to pray. And I was raised by a mentally ill mother. And sometimes when we think of mentally ill, it’s just some kind of, you know, not a big deal. As far as, I mean, it’s a big deal for the person, but not a big deal for other people, but for her, my mother, she wasn’t just a little mentally ill.

She was like raving crazy. I mean, really she was really abusive. Locked me in a closet much of my early childhood, very erratic the way she behaved. I mean, she would just slap me across the face, outta the blue, and it always shocked me cause I didn’t know what I’d done. And then she would lock me in the closet and I couldn’t cry because then I’d get punished for crying. I couldn’t ask to get out because then I’d get punished for that. It was scary to live with her. We were on a ranch, isolated from the rest of the world, really 30 miles from the nearest lake.

I was really isolated until I started school, but I was really terrified to go to school, probably a 20-mile ride into school and where the school was. And I was just afraid of the children cause I wasn’t around children and they just seemed loud and scary to me. And so it was scary to go home and it was scary to go to school. And I grew up with so much fear and anxiety and feelings of futility and hopelessness. All always afraid of, what was gonna happen. And my dad, we had a ranch and he worked the ranch. When the weather wasn’t good, he’d go to the logging mills and he would stay there to make money in the winter or when it was a bad season, you couldn’t grow crops or you couldn’t, you had to keep your cattle protected and stuff like that. He wasn’t always around.

So I was with her and she just constantly talking to the voices she heard in her head, it just so scary. I mean, she wasn’t just like a normal person who had problems. She was a scary person. You didn’t never know what she was gonna do. And so I grew up with these feelings, so strong fear and anxiety and hopelessness and helplessness. And just all of those things. I was just afraid all the time. I was afraid to do anything. I was afraid to do something wrong and I didn’t know. And when I did get slapped across the face, I didn’t know what I’d done wrong. It was really bad. And so, so much so that by the time I grew up. I still, even though I got out of the closet, we moved to a small place that didn’t have any closets. I mean, the closets were two feet wide. You really couldn’t put someone in there. I wasn’t in the closet anymore, but she was still nuttier than ever and more abusive. And she talked about me in degrading, profanity, always things about me. Most of them are unrepeatable, and being described in those terms is really hurtful. 

I just felt she was just always mean and always nasty and always abusive, always violent and crazy, always crazy talking to all these voices that she heard and showed out, people were out to kill her. And it was nutty. You never felt any normality. And so what I carried with me from all that was by the time I was out of the house, supporting myself and I was still locked in a closet. It was an emotional closet as opposed to a physical closet. I mean, it was, went with me everywhere. I tried everything when I was growing up to get rid of that pain. I had that pain all the time and always feeling, always feeling like crying, always feeling like I would never be accepted anywhere.

Nothing was ever gonna go right. Nothing was ever gonna be good in my life. And I just wanted to get away from the pain. And so what I did when I was 14, I just swallowed all the pills I could find in my house, cause I didn’t wanna wake up anymore. Cause it was so painful. I felt out of place every place I went, she was nutty enough that she mixed all the medicine up.

So I don’t even know what I took, but I was very sick, I know that. So, once I lived through that, I thought I’m just gonna try as my best to do the best I can to get good grades to develop any talents or gifts. I felt like it could do carry off and hoping that I could become a workaholic and just get out of my mess, graduate from high school and then went to UCLA.

I put myself through school. I was working in the evenings and on the weekends. I don’t even know how I did it, but I had to do it, we didn’t have any money. We were very poor and rats used to run across my bed at night. Often I went to bed hungry and that’s when I was with my parents. So they couldn’t provide any help at all. And so I was trying, putting myself through UCLA and I thought, wow! I don’t know if I can make this, but I started getting work in Hollywood. And the TV shows, there were a lot of musical TV shows. So I was singing on them and dancing and, and little acting with comedy skits and things like that. So I was working a lot.

I was working seven days a week. I’d work as much as I possibly could, two jobs, which is really hard to do. I had two shows that I was working on: the Glen Camel Show and then another local show called Loman and Barkley which was LA. So I worked seven days a week and I was really killing myself because I knew I couldn’t rest. I was so insecure that going to bed hungry really affected you as a child. And you’re always afraid you’re gonna end up homeless or, you know, and I wasn’t going back to live with my mother. I was gonna make this work, but I, I could never shake the depression and the anxiety. And if I got insecure on one of the sets, I would just go into one of the bathroom stalls and just cry and cry and cry. And so no one could hear me, but I just, it was so depressed and so anxious and so hopeless.

Carrie: And was staying busy, kind of one of those ways that you just coped with that anxiety. If I just stay on this hamster wheel and keep going and going, going, maybe. 

Stormie: Exactly. Exactly. That’s exactly it.

And I was too insecure to turn down any work and the work, like that comes in seems like in seasons, in season, outta season. But I worked all the time, all the time. I was always auditioning, always getting jobs, always getting another show and I was getting worse and worse and worse. As far as the depression goes, it wasn’t getting better beause that’s kind of an insecure kind of job. Anyway, you just feel like you’re only as good as the last day you worked. You know what I mean?

Carrie: Wow!

Stormie: You were judged every day. What you did do and how did you come through, was this good or was it not? And, I always judge myself so harshly that it was you. If I had a good filming thing where we did a great taping of a show or whatever, then the next morning I was really depressed, cause I didn’t know if I was ever gonna work again and then I’m going on to the next job and the next and it just, I never got better.

I just, it got worse. It got worse and worse and worse. I always thought that I, you know, if I got out of the situation with my mother got out of that, worked really hard. Then I could be free of all that, that didn’t happen. It just got worse. I think the older I got and not that I was getting old, but I was in my twenties. And at that time, if you got in your late twenties, you were, like pretty much washed up. You know what I mean? So that was always bothering me too. You know, that I was getting older. Didn’t seem to get any better. It wasn’t until everything in my life just collapsed. All of a sudden my health was bad. My mental health was bad.

I was just depressed so badly that I could hardly function. And I just, and emotionally just, it was awful. And I just felt like I, I couldn’t go on anymore. And that’s when one of the girls I was singing with in the TV studio and the recording studios too. Cause I did a lot of background singing for other artists and stuff like that. And that lady, Terry, she was a little younger than I was. She took me to meet her pastor at the church. That was not far from where we were doing all this work and all the studios and everything. And she introduced me to the pastor and he just described Jesus in a way I could understand. He said, “God has a purpose for your life and He has plans for you”. I never heard such stuff, really never that I had a purpose. Wow! I thought I was just scratching, clawing for a purpose, you know, but God had a purpose for me and if I would receive him, He would change me from the inside out. And I thought, wow! it just seemed too good to be true. And so I did receive the Lord in his office and my friend Terry was with us too. And I felt hope for the first time.

I don’t remember feeling hope before. And then I thought I was, it was really big. And I thought I have a purpose. And there’s hope for my life. It’s almost like I saw a light at the end of the long dark tunnel of my life. And I just started coming with Terry would pick me up every week to take me to church. And I mean, for months and months, she did that cause I was too depressed. Depressions I had, I could hardly get out of bed. And so if there was a day, I didn’t have to get outta bed, but she would come over and get me out and I’d throw something on and she’d take me to church. And as I went to church and started hearing the truth, being told of how God gives us a sound mind of how He has a purpose for us. He has plans for a great plan for our life. He’s the God of the impossible. And He can do things that you feel are impossible. 

The hope began to grow. And I met my husband. I had been on a recording session with him, and Terry had introduced me to him when, after I got into this church, he came to the church for the first time when I did in this particular church.

And so we meet again there. I met him on a record session that Terry had contracted us to do. And when I met him the year before, I didn’t feel good in my own self. To be able to have a relationship with someone who was a really nice person. And, you know, you don’t wanna just give someone a, a beat-up kind of damaged emotionally person.

But so, when I saw him again in church, I thought, wow! I wish I’d been going to this church for longer than just a week. We started dating, and we got married within that year. I was so surprised to have the Lord and a faithful husband who loved me, but I still had depression. I still had it. I can believe it. I thought that would solve everything. 

Carrie: Right. 

Stormie: But it didn’t. I still had it. I still had the depression.

Carrie: When you get in a healthy relationship after being in such an unhealthy relationship for so long, it’s almost like it’s hard to allow people to love you. And it seems kind of foreign.

Stormie: It does. That’s exactly right. That’s a way to describe it, cause you’ve not had that before and you think, well, they are, they’re all together and everything. And I know that I am not, you know, even though I’m not telling people that I’m not, I knew, but I was surprised to find myself so depressed. And so I couldn’t believe it. And I thought, oh my gosh, what is the matter with me? Why am I still depressed? You know, I thought these things would fix it and it didn’t. And so my husband would say, “why don’t you go to the church”? He knew that the church had Christian counselors there. They were, actually the pastor’s wives and these wives are really why they knew the scripture.

They knew what God has for us in the way of wholeness. They knew how to pray. They knew how to pass and pray. And you know how to teach the scripture in a way that would really help you hang on to the truth. And so when I went there, this lady, one pastor’s wife, Maryanne, talked to me for an hour and I told her everything. I never told anybody everything. I had told my husband everything about my past, but I never told anybody else. And she said, you know what? We really need to fast and pray. And she said she would fast and pray with me. And she said for three days, and this was really shocking because, you know, I had gone to, with too many times, hungry. I’m very hungry. I was hungry. 

Carrie: Sure.

Stormie: And then deliberately go to bed hungry for three days. I thought was insane, but I really wanted what God had for me. And I really trusted her cause she was really intuitive and really understood. Just understood everything. And so I did, she said you can fast for three days and then come back and then I’m gonna pray with you and we’re gonna get rid of this depression. I thought, wow! I didn’t know what to think of that. And really, I never heard anything like that and I didn’t know what the possibilities were, but I thought it would be nice it. He prayed for it, you know? So I did that, went home when she said, write out a list of all of your sins that you haven’t confessed. I thought, whoa!

I don’t, you know, so, so I did, I wrote, I just had a list and I just was writing everything that came to my mind. And I was really afraid of what was gonna happen when she read it, but she didn’t wanna read it. She just laid her hand on that paper. And when we started to pray, I, first of all, had to confess my unforgiveness toward my mother. I’ve been trying to forgive her and what I knew was a done deal yet. I knew that I had such bitterness and all those years that she was brutal toward me and I had to confess all my cult involvement. I had been searching in the cult, you know, trying to find a way to God, I couldn’t get it. I just couldn’t. I tried all these things.

I tried hypnosis and astral projection and all these new age and cult things that I was in. And so I had to confess all of that and say, “Lord, I, I wanna serve you. I don’t wanna serve anything else that’s not of you”. So, she said, “The sooner you get rid of the things that are not of God, the sooner you can move on with God to become all He created you to be”. The third thing was see, forgiving my mother, and getting rid of the cult involvement. And I can’t remember what the other third thing was. Wow! I was, I’ll think of it. Anyway, gosh, I’ve been talking about this for a hundred years. So when I did those three things, she put her hands on my shoulders and my head and she prayed for me.

She had invited another pastor’s wife when I made those confessions. It was like God just lifted that depression off of my shoulders. It was a wildest thing. I tried medicine. It wasn’t my, like, I hadn’t taken medicine for it. I’d tried drugs and alcohol and just anything. I didn’t do that when I was working. It’s not like I was an addict or anything like that. I just was trying to kill the pain in whatever way. 

Carrie: Sure.

Stormie: When she prayed for me, I felt the depression lift. And now that’s a physical manifestation of just heavy things on my shoulders and my head and my chest. And my heart felt it lift, lifted off. I thought, wow! I mean, I was amazed. I didn’t even know that was possible when that lifted. I kind of expected it to come back the next day. You know what I mean? When I get depressed again, I am coming back here every time I get depressed, but it doesn’t come back. It’s not like I was never depressed again, you know, or never anxious again, but it never controlled me.

I had before it was controlling my entire life, the depression and I couldn’t function. I couldn’t hardly be a good friend, but I always got myself out of bed to go to work. That was a necessity, but I, when that thing lifted and it didn’t come back, wow! If God would do that for me, what else does he wanna do for me? And then I started thinking of other people and saying, “what else does he wanna do for other people”? There’s power in prayer in Jesus’ name, there is power. And to see it manifest is just really mind-blowing. Because I tried a medicine as well, is all these other things, I was trying to medicate it and it didn’t help.

It didn’t help. It just made me feel drugged. Didn’t make me delivered or free. And so I, I saw that you can be free and I’d tried everything to get free before I’d gone to psychiatrists and psychologists and counselors secular, and they kind of helped. They’re probably what kept me alive for so long, but it just, they weren’t the answer and I’m not putting it down for anybody taking medicine at all.

Believe me, I feel that that’s a gift from God in itself. To have that to relieve the pain or the symptoms that you have, but God is the one who can really make you whole, and it’s his spirit in you that changes you from the inside out? That was really an amazing thing to understand that there’s really power in prayer. And again, I don’t wanna discourage anyone from seeing a doctor or a counselor or anything, or take the medicine you need or whatever, whatever works for you. Let you know that there’s a deeper freedom you can have where you can really be set free from it. 

Carrie: I think it really makes sense to me from a psychological perspective about people will say, sometimes that depression is anger turned inward and so we’re really angry still at your mother, understanding.

So for everything that happened there, and that was a stronghold in your life, there was some bitterness there. And then you had all of those insecurities about yourself. 

Stormie: Yes.

Carrie: And so there may have been some of that anger towards yourself there that was stuck. 

Stormie: That’s so true. And after I had that freedom from the controlling aspect of depression and anxiety, I had my first child, was born. All those feelings toward my mother, which I thought I’d work through. Forgiving my mother was an ongoing process. It would, wasn’t like one and done, forget it. It was every time you thought of something else that she did or you talked to her again and she would just attack you on the phone or, you know, that’s the way she was.

She was just, it wasn’t a normal person. She was just really lonely all of that came back when I brought my first child home and thinking, “What could a mother treat her child that way?” I couldn’t believe it. That’s the last thing I thought I would do anything like that. But then I began to see that there was stuff in me when I couldn’t get the baby to stop crying, it would feel like a rejection of me as a mother. I just felt like there was a monster in me that this, all this anger and hurt and everything’s coming back up again. And I couldn’t understand why I thought I was done with that, but it’s a process. And so I, I learned that I had to, when I started to get those feelings in me, I just had to put the baby down in the crib and just go into my room and get on my knees before the Lord and say, “God, just take this away”.

Take this horrible thing in me away that just rises to the surface in just almost a rage of anger and just, just all these horrible feelings you don’t wanna have. So that was a gradual thing. I I called the counselor, I finally told my husband what was going on. We talked to Maryanne the counselor and she said, “Just as long as the baby’s not in any danger”, he said, “Just keep doing that. Just keep asking God to set you free of it”. So certain things like unforgiveness is like a process,

Carrie: It is, it really is. 

Stormie: You have to forgive something else would come up and you go, I just feel, I felt such a resentment for so long for her. Cause I felt like I, I started way behind everybody else cause everybody else taught and, and loved, you know, and, and taught things and, and taught how to live and how to be with people and stuff like that. And I did, I wasn’t, you know, and so I just felt resentful about that for so long, but I just kept forgiving her and forgiving her over and over and over. And because she was such a source of my depression and anxiety and hurt and sadness and grief and all of that. It’s just a those kind of things are a process. 

You know, sometimes you can just get a deliverance that’s just instant, like set free from that, from that depression that day, which just, it just lifted like, wow! that’s amazing. But then the thing where all this stuff would come up when I was with my child and then I’m resenting her even more thinking I wouldn’t do, like anything like this to my child. Why would you do that to me? It was, it was ongoing. I’m telling you it was ongoing forgiveness until I thought it was free of it. 

Carrie: I don’t really believe that healing comes in layers. Sometimes we’re only able to do that top layer and God knows that, you know, he allows us other things to come up. 

Stormie: They do. And, and then the thing is to not get discouraged when that happens, when you think you’re free of something and all of a sudden you feel like it’s coming back, like it never, you know, you were never healed and not to get deceived by that or misled by that because he let you go down deeper. In your memory and your experience, you know, whatever is surfacing, it’s what you deal with. 

Carrie: Right.

Stormie: You can’t do the whole thing, cause it’s so deep, but not to think that you’re going backwards, if that happens because it’s just a new level of freedom that God wants to lead you into. It’s gradual.

Carrie: And sanctification itself is a process.

Stormie: It is. It’s, you’re not totally 100% perfect. Right? From the first time you receive the award, not at all, it’s just where you’ve got you. Now you have the tools and you have a God who loves you and, and who wants you to get totally whole, and it, it is definitely a process. So I just didn’t want anybody to get discouraged when they think, oh no, it’s coming back.

So nothing happened. I, you know, I’ve never been set free and it’s not true. It’s a deeper level that God wants to set you free from. 

Carrie: Absolutely. What would you say to someone who’s really praying and seeking to release their fears over to God, but still feel afraid and anxious? This sometimes can be a lifelong struggle for some people.

Stormie: I know. And I, the thing I found was that having some prayer power, having someone pray with you, it’s really powerful. Someone who has great knowledge of the Lord who understands what God has for us, who understands that He wants us whole, He doesn’t want us to carry fear. That’s paralyzing in my book, I have a book called The Power of Praying Through Fear and a lot of, you know, our depression and anxiety like you said, is caused my fear.

I mean, just the fear, of the unknown. The fear of something else happening. That’s like what has happened to you already? The fear of the memories coming back of some horrible thing that that’s gone on or something someone’s done to you or, or you’ve done to yourself or whatever, and just carries this guilt with those things.

For example, when you take a lot of drugs that really hurt your body and you think, wow! I’ve really ruin myself like, wasted my health and things like that. You can carry such guilt over that, but you can pick up right there and start right there to live in a way that blesses you and blesses your body and blesses your mental health and all of these things. And so that’s one of the most important things I think is remembering that even though you can struggle with fear in your life or like phobias, that which fear taken to the extreme. God says He doesn’t want us to have fear. He says, He’s given us love power and a sound mind, His love, His power and the sound mind He has for us.

And I remember having to say that over and over, God has not given me a spirit of fear. 

Now, the spirit of fear controls your life. It’s not, I mean, everybody’s afraid of something, but when you, the fear controls your life, you know, it, you know, it, you feel like you’re almost paralyzed by it. It’s, it’s a horrible thing. And I had to keep saying over, over and over to myself, that God has not given me a spirit of fear. He’s given me his love, his power and the sound mind He has for me. I had to say that over and over and over until I got free of that. And the thing is I explained in my book that there’s good fear and bad fear.

Carrie: That’s true. 

Stormie: God allows fear that leads you to Him. If it’s a good fear, it will draw you closer to Him. And if it’s a bad fear, it’ll separate you from God. It will cause you to try to handle things your own way or to not go to God, but to try to find help in, within yourself or within like I did with alcohol and drugs and Eastern religions and cult practices and things like that. So really important to know that God does not have fear for you. He doesn’t want you to be paralyzed by fear or controlled by fear. But if it’s fear that he’s allowing to get you on the right path or to keep you from going the wrong way, that’s a good thing. That’s a good thing. So you gotta ask the Lord, what is this fear? Is this a good thing? Is this gonna protect me? Or is this something I, that you want to deliver me from? And that’s really important to make that distinction between the two it takes asking him, saying, Lord, show me, show me. 

Carrie: And sometimes we have a certain level of anxiety and we’ve talked about this in previous episodes where it’s like, you feel like God wants to do something big and it’s beyond you.

Stormie: Yes.

Carrie: And you feel a certain level of anxiety about it. I don’t think that I can fulfil my calling.

Stormie: Yes. 

Carrie: What you asking me to do, but like you said, that leads you right back to him to say.

Stormie: Yes.

Carrie: Okay, if this is of you, then I need you to help me out with this because it feels really big.

Stormie: That is so right on. Absolutely right on hundred percent, because that’s where I felt. I felt I’ve been in way over my head for the past 50 years, because he’s always calling me to do something and I go, I can’t do that. I can’t do that. Get someone else, you know. And, and you’re right. Well, it causes you to be on your knees before the Lord saying, I can’t do this. You gotta fill me with your spirit, your love, your power, you all of these things that you are, God, you have to do this. I, I don’t even know where to start. And, and he does, its amazing. And, and the more dependent you are on the Lord, the greater He can do great things through you. I mean, the more he can do great things through you. So that’s, you’re absolutely right on with that.

Carrie: I’m curious if you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self? 

Stormie: Wow! I wish I could. Wow! it was so serious being with my mother. I could not see a way out. That’s why I tried to kill myself when I was 14. I couldn’t see a way out. I didn’t see how it could ever be any different. I would talk about the Lord and say, look, God’s got a purpose for your life. He’s put gifts in you and He will develop them if you surrender your life to the Lord. And, I just to be able to know that. There was a way out of this that it will get better.

I just didn’t see any hope at all, tried to make it work myself and I couldn’t do it. And so just to, to tell me myself that look, it’s gonna get better. You’re gonna find a way out of this. I’ve got a way out for you. And that would be the biggest thing. And just, to know about the Lord earlier, I never did. I mean, I never did until my friend Terry in the studio, talked to me about the Lord. I mean, she talked about, and from the standpoint, point of what he had done in her life, she wasn’t saying you need to do this. She was not like that. She was just showing me what her church was like.

I mean, just telling me, and when we have breaks, you know, on the record sessions and stuff, she’d just tell me, this is what we did in our church last night or yesterday. And, and it’s really powerful. You’ve gotta come sometime and just see how the Lord moves. And I kept saying well thinking, well, that’s really nice for her, but I’ve tried everything and nothing works knowing the Lord earlier, would’ve been great, but I’m so glad I did. I did that. She let you know, led me to her pastor and he helped me to understand who God was and who Jesus is and all of that.

Carrie: That’s the greatest gift that we could ever give to somebody. 

Stormie: Yes, it really is. It really is the lady who led me to the Lord. She just died a couple of weeks ago and it was so sad. She had cancer, had found healing from it and then it all came back. You know how we hear that story? 

Carrie: Sure.

Stormie: So if I hadn’t known her, I don’t know what would’ve happened to me beause I was planning a second attempt at suicide this time I was gonna make it. It was gonna work. You know, I was gonna take enough pills and to do the job right. And the fact that she intervened, she said, “I’m not, you can see you’re not doing well. Could just come with me to meet my pastor? What have you got to lose?” You know, she said, and I thought, well, you know, I’m not ready to get enough sleeping pills to end it. I might as well just go see what he has to say. And if she hadn’t done that, and if she hadn’t come, pick me up every week, every Sunday, every time for, I mean, for so long, I wouldn’t meet her today. Really, she was so selfless and so kind, and I was just so great that I’m so glad I knew her. And, she’s gonna be greatly missed by so many people. She saved my life, so grateful. , I told her before she died, I really hope that my mansion in heaven is close to yours.

Carrie: That’s really sweet.

Stormie: It was really touching. I was so glad I knew her for 44 years. She was a really close friend. 

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for taking some time out today to talk with us. I think this is gonna be really encouraging and hopeful for our listeners who are struggling. 

Stormie: I hope so. To anyone who’s listening right now, who’s struggling just with emotional pain and hurt and the things that happened to people and how they’re mistreated and or how they were abused either as a child or later on or whatever my heart goes out to them beause I know how hard it is, but I just wanna say there’s hope. There is hope to be free of it. It can happen, and it will just don’t give up.

Carrie: By the time this episode airs, I hope to be doing some more podcast interviews. I had done several during my pregnancy to stock up for when I was gonna be out on maternity leave. And now that I am back to work in the action, I hope to be interviewing more individuals. So if you have guest suggestions, you can always go to our website, @hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Fill out the contact form. And let me know who you would like to hear from, or maybe you are the one who has a story to share. You do not have to be a public speaker or author to be on the show. That’s not a requirement.

If you want to keep up to date with what’s going on with the podcast, make sure that you follow us on Facebook or Instagram. You can also sign up for our newsletter on the website as well. All the links you need will be in the show notes. And thank you so much for listening.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted

by God’s great love for you.

70. Mental Health in the African American Community with Dr. Nicholas Grier

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Podcast Episode. No Comments on 70. Mental Health in the African American Community with Dr. Nicholas Grier

Dr. Nicolas Grier is an Associate Professor of Practical Theology, Spiritual Care, & Counseling. Dr. Grier is also a mental health therapist and author.

  • How do churches minister to the mental health of Black men
  • The stigma surrounding mental health and receiving help in Black Community
  • Common struggles that black men are facing today
  •  Early beginnings of Black Psychology
  • Dr. Grier’s view on APA’s formal apology to people of color in promoting, perpetuating, and failing to challenge racism.
  • Dr. Grier’s Book, Care for the Mental and Spiritual Health of Black Men


Links and Resources:

https://nicholasgrier.com/

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Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope For Anxiety and OCD episode 70. Today on the show, I have an interview with Dr. Nicholas Grier, an ordained minister and therapist and author of The Care For The Mental and Spiritual Health of black men. He’s gonna talk with us about mental health in the black community. One of the things I really value is hearing from people who have other lived experiences or cultural backgrounds that I don’t possess to try and I guess understand where different people are coming from because I see all different types of clients and it helps me to be able to empathize with others. So let’s go ahead and dive into this interview. 

I know that I had talked with you earlier that this particular episode was kind of prompted by something a close friend of mine said in an earlier episode, episode nine, actually. And I was asking her about her experience with mental health in the African American church. And she said, “well, you know, the pastors in those churches are like ostriches, and they just have their head buried in the sand, they don’t wanna look at their own issues”. And so I really thought, okay, there’s somebody in this community that understands mental health that we could talk to and really combine those two worlds. And I thought it would be awesome to provide an alternate perspective that was her lived experience. And so I was glad that she shared that, but I’m just curious, has it been a challenge for you. Since you work with churches to know how to minister to the mental health of black men?

Dr. Nicholas: That’s an excellent question and observation. The first thing I consider is the fact that there are a number of black churches, right?  so there’s a.

Carrie: Sure.

Dr. Nicholas: Diversity of black congregations. And so from that perspective, I think we have to go into that question, realizing that, like there are different ways that your various clergy, respond to this, very same question.

So for instance, last summer, I was working with a number of clergy on the south side of Chicago with a grant that really focused on this very thing that you’re talking about, you know, so the mental wellbeing of clergy on the south side of Chicago, and most of them were African American. There were, you know, 40, 50 clergy who were part of this program. And so from my experience in that program. In administering that grant. My goodness that the clergy were more than willing to dive into, their own, you know, experiences with, the heavy load that many of them carry the emotions, the psychological burdens that are placed on them. 

So I think when we think about response to this question, we have to think about, okay, who are the specific black congregations and black clergy that we’re talking about? Because my experience, especially recently, there’s a lot of openness from, you know, black clergy really saying that, “Hey, this is something urgent that we need to reflect on”. So not only was that a particular experience that I’ve had with clergy, but most recently there’s another denomination. That’s also, you know, asking me to work with them on developing a program to help their clergy deal with the mental health experiences.

Now, I think part of that is also who do clergy feel like they can trust specifically who do black clergy. Well, they can trust. So, so I realize that perhaps have maybe a little bit of an inside edge, if you will, just to take very seriously the experiences of clergy. So from this perspective, because I am an ordained clergy, cause I also happen to have a PhD and a licensed professional counselor. Well, they tend to trust me, in that sense. But I think part of that too is the ways in which I try to engage them. So I engage them with a lot of respect, deep appreciation for who they are. So I think all those things affect how we think about mental health and black faith communities. 

Carrie: Sure. And obviously, if you’ve already been there and had some of that lived experience of ministering in the church, that’s huge. So in the counseling community, we’re always like working really hard to reduce the stigma surrounding mental health and receiving help. Do you believe that black people face more challenging stigma to receiving mental health services? I don’t know for example, in the past I’ve had someone share with me that it felt very punitive for them almost like you’re gonna to therapy, but it was kind of like a punishment like you’re kid that’s in trouble and you’re going to therapy now. And it just, wasn’t a positive experience for that, for that individual who was in the black community. 

Dr. Nicholas: Well, I’d be curious to know more about that person’s experience. And you know, this to me is, you know, back to my emphasis on focusing on particular situations. And so each situation has its own nuances. And my sense, when I think about a type of situation like this is. That there are a number of, I think, complexities that one must engage. When we think about how do we, address the experiences, that the emotional, mental, and psychological experiences of black folks going to therapy. So in one sense now, which is one of the reasons why I’m so passionate about the work of coloring mental health collective, which is organization.

I started that advocates and organizes for the mental well-being of black and brown people. One of the things we’re passionate about with that work is to say that, “Hey you can tell a black person to go to therapy”. But if they’re going to therapy with a therapist, who’s practicing out of theories and Ideologies that actually perpetuate colonization racism and things that sort, without them even being aware of that, then that can actually be very detrimental to the black person going to therapy.

So in actuality, they’re actually worse off for going to therapy. If they have someone who’s not practicing out of theories and ideology, that’s actually helpful for black people. So this is why I’m so passionate about reflecting on how can we help equip clinicians with theories and practices that actually nurture the holistic wellbeing of black and brown folks. So this can be done by taking very seriously, you know, for instance, the literature of black psychology of womanness in Mahata psychologies, right? So there are a number of resources that a clinicians can use. So I think that’s part of what’s at stake in this type of situation, when a person says, okay, feels are punitive when I’m going into therapy.

Well, I mean, my experience at doing therapy with black folks is that they often like wanna meet multiple times a week and even want to go over the sessions. I mean, in my view, it’s because. They feel respected, they feel understood. And it’s not all just having to explain my reality, to someone else.

Carrie: And I think that we’ve come a long way from original psychology in its infancy was a bunch of white European men. And now we have a lot more diversity in the counseling community as a whole. We have a lot more people of color. A lot more people of different ethnic origins and backgrounds. And that helps a lot with people being able to find someone that they can relate to, that they feel like, this person’s really gonna get it. And they’re really gonna have that level of like cultural sensitivity to their work. 

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely. And you know, I was just inviting womanist, pastor theologians and therapists to a class. So I’m teaching a woman is pastor theology and spiritual care class where I teach at Clare Osteology. And one of the things that was significant. So Dr. pH shepherd was the person who came to visit us and she teaches at Vanderbilt. And she was just naming that when she, teaches her students about, you know, women as pastor or theologies and womanist psychologies, she’s like the things that we’re contributing, like these are not necessarily brand new. In other words, she was naming that even before like certain books and certain academic fields. There were actually black women writing of.

Carrie: Wow.

Dr. Nicolas: About psychology, right? And about, you know, spirituality. So just because psychology came into existence as like this Western Eurocentric male-centric field, that was not the beginning of human psychology.

Carrie: Right. No makes sense. 

Dr. Nicholas: You know, it actually existed before then. And so, when we realized that the fact that, even if we take a very seriously a, you know, African traditions and indigenous African traditions, a lot of these traditions were oral traditions and things that were passed down. And so there’s a lot of diverse types of wisdom that we can pull from whether it’s from the oral traditions or even like the other written works that don’t get highlighted in traditional psychology.

Carrie: So you’re really feeling like there’s more of an openness in the black community towards mental health, more openness, maybe towards clergy to be talking about mental health and how can we apply these things to ourselves to be healthier clergy, but also how can we help the people in our congregations be healthier?

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely. I think a lot of it’s trust. I mean, I’ve been clergy in the local church setting. I’ve worked with clergy in the local church setting. I know very well, the suspicion, and I would say a healthy suspicion, oftentimes that black folks have of, you know white, if they’re not centered in a deliberative practice. I mean, they can sniff it out just like that. And so when you have clergy, for instance, who are trained in, you know, like liberation theology, being a type of theology that takes very seriously that systemically marginalized and that systemically oppressed and tries to nurture their wellbeing. I mean, I, I can think about the work of Howard Thurman. Who asked the question? What does the religion of Jesus have to say to those who love where their backs against the wall? And so when you’re doing ministry and theology from this vantage point as a black clergy person, well you wanna make sure that a therapist you go to is also reflecting on, how can I conduct therapy in such a way that helps people who are living with their backs against the wall?

Carrie: What are some common struggles that you see black men facing today? 

Dr. Nicholas: The struggles that I see again, I guess I wanna repeat the thing that these are diverse struggles, right? 

Carrie: Sure. 

Dr. Nicholas: There’s a difference. In other words, there’s a lot of variation within black communities. You know, no one black man is alike. And so I, I think it’s important to honor that, but then also when I think about some of the common themes that I’ve seen with black men, even as I wrote my book on the mental and spiritual health of black men. A lot of these things, get back to what I name as like, the social pathology. In other words, what’s wrong with society? What’s the dysfunction in society? I mean, a lot of Western individual psychology looks at the pathology as individualistically based. They point, even when you look at the DSM. It’s always ask Okay. What, what disorder does this one person have? Part of what I wanna ask is what disorder does society have? That causes a black man to struggle mentally and emotionally as they might. 

So from that perspective, I think there’s a lot of ways in which black men experience people, looking at them as if they’re not educated as if they’re criminals, as if they’re dumb as if their ultimate destination is to be locked up or, you know, killed by police. Or if they’re going to be successful by being some type of entertainer, whether it’s, you know, an athlete, visual artist, musician, you know, rapper, things of that sort. So these are all things, themes that came out of the interviews of black men, that I put in my book of The Care for the Mental and Spiritual Health of black men. I, I think when we realize that these are common things, you realize these are significant odds. So, so this gets back to the whole concept in psychology of projection and projective identification. 

So one of the questions I asked black men in my book was what does society say about you and what does society think about black men? What is the ultimate life destination that society sees for black men? And that’s when they responded with all of those things that I named in terms of naming that, you know, black men, that society sees black men as criminals bugs as, you know, savages, as people to be feared, devalued, discredited folks who are not known by society, unless we actually take time to have conversations like this. Right? So, so it’s almost like as a black man, even though I’m a person like I’m a professor, I have a, you know, PhD minister, all these things. I often have to like, earn my way, even having these things. 

I have to earn my way to be received by someone as something who actually is this person, as opposed to whatever thing they have in their imagination of who I am. And so when you realize that there’s so much resistance, that that has to go on in a black man’s life, you know, in other words, I’m having to, and black men are having to resist these negative projections that society  has of us. Right? And so, when I look at the various psychological theories I studied, which is one of the reasons why I decided to write my own theory for the mental and spiritual the black men was because I noticed that when I was in graduate school, you know, studying psychology, a lot of these theories when they talked about these are the things you need to be. Well, psychologically, whether some of them talked about it from the perspective of everyone has like, you know, mirroring needs. Everyone has idealization needs. Everyone has these needs to be safe and all these things, I mean, these are all good and well, but they weren’t even talking about the specific things that black men face.

So this is why I think that when we realize all these things that black men face, we have to then take a step back and say, “okay, there are some additional things because of the realities of racism, sex, and classism in black men’s life”. One of the things that black men need to be able to do is to resist on a continual basis. All these negative projections. But then a part of that means that because we’re resisting so much in our lives, we also need to be able to experience mental and emotional healing on a consistent basis as well, because those negative projections keep coming our way. 

Carrie: And I think being able to talk with someone who can really validate that, their lived experience of, okay, I’m feeling like I’m having to work harder or climb this extra mountain, just to be able to do the things that other people may be able to do easily, reputation-wise and things that you were talking about. I think that that’s really important in terms of just the therapeutic context of validating that. That those things are real, that people may look at you and it doesn’t matter that you’re well educated and you’re dressed nicely. They may assume you’re a drug dealer who, you know, because of their own preconceived notions that they have. 

I found this interesting that it, it really just came out very recently prior to us recording this, that the American Psychological Association, it recently published a formal apology for their role in promoting perpetuating and failing to challenge racism, racial discrimination, and human hierarchy in the US. And I’m curious about your response to that article, 

Dr. Nicholas: I’ll say, “yes”. I’m curious, what else that we want to reflect on from it?

Carrie: Do you feel like that, that’s been a long, like overdue statement that they made basically. I mean, cause they listed several different things. Just, you know, not taking into account marginalized populations. When we look at studies, sometimes the studies are not diverse. And then we’re trying to apply something that was not studied on people of color to people of color. For example, just some of those types of things. From your perspective as a black man, does it feel validating like, well, it’s about time.

They got around to that. Just what does that feel like for you? 

Dr. Nicholas: That’s a very good point. The reason why I respond to that as I do is because there is a way that I would say people of color and certainly black people see it, you know, see this, apology and say, “okay”, well, you know, the response might be, I’m glad that that happened. And also we know that like our livelihood, our survival, our liberation, our flourishing is not, you know, predicated on whether or not we’re gonna get this apology, right? 

We know that it may or may not happen. History has proven itself a black folks will go to the grave without getting a certain apology or reparations or things of that sort. So we’re not basing our livelihood, our survival and flourishing on whether or not certain groups apologize and give reparations. Now, of course we’ll strive for these things to happen, but we’re not waiting for that to happen in order for us to nurture our own wellbeing, an approach that many of us have. And I can think about groups that I’m a part of. Well, we organize within ourselves to nurture our own well being because we’re like, we know they may or may not get. But we know we have the wisdom, the genius within us to nurture our wellbeing. One of my amazing colleagues, and I will say, you know, she’s someone who I admire deeply because she’s the first black woman to have a full book. And woman is pastor theology and spiritual care. So this is Dr. Carol Watkins Ali. She wrote the book Survival and Liberation, which focuses on pastor or theology and pastoral counseling in the African American context. 

One of the things that she said is if the trauma isn’t the DNA, then the healing is in the DNA. She talks a lot about, you know, black women, especially poor black women and saying that all of society will be better if we care deeply for poor black women, because a lot of our capitalism, the ways and we profit are built on the labor backs and suffering of poor black women. I, I think it’s very important to honor that. And so, when we take seriously the reality that folks who’ve experienced the trauma know very well of the experience of it and have the ability. If we nurture constructive self-reflection and ways to engage and respond to the suffering, then we ourselves can nurture our own wellbeing. And of course, there’s always room for allies in the struggle.

One of the things I’m clear about is that, you know, black folks not waiting on whoever to apologize to us, like we know we’ve got the power, we’ve got the ability, the wherewithal to nurture our own wellbeing. Even as we work with willing allies. 

Carrie: And I think, definitely actions speak louder than words. And so it may take time for some of these things that you’re talking about for change to occur. Obviously, if you’re talking about things that have been going on for a while. Takes time to make changes. 

Dr. Nicholas: Right. 

Carrie: Tell us a little bit more about your book, The Care for the Mental and Spiritual Health of black men.

Dr. Nicholas: So, as I alluded to earlier, you know, I just got tired during my PhD program, seeing all these psychological theories, not, you know, fully addressing. Emotional psychological and spiritual experiences of black people in particular. And when you look at, you mentioned the early beginnings of psychology, even when you look at the early beginnings of black psychology, certainly a lot of it was focusing on the strengths of black people and, you know, how do we engage a strengths-based model instead of a deficit-based model, which is significant shift from how a person engage, you know, traditional Western therapy. So that’s been a part of black psychology, but a lot of the beginning of black psychology was about responding to what centric psychological theories were saying. So a lot of these early psychological theories and literature about black people about how black folks are less than, and you know how we’re so different from white people.

So then you have a lot of black psychologists coming along saying, “wait a minute, we need to respond to that”. Because that’s not true. We’re not less than white people inherently. And so when I look at the work that I do, I’m dishonored by those who came before me, because I’m only able to do what I’m able to do because of those who’ve paved a path.

In other words, if I came into existence at a point in time in human history where nobody had defended against this oppressive thought from early psychology about black people. Then, a lot of the tasks of my work primarily respond to these negative perceptions of black people by white psychology. And so, because you have so many folks who’ve come before me, who’ve already done that work. I then can develop an approach to counseling and mental health that, you know, stands on their shoulders and enables me to think about how do we nurture not only the survival of black people, but the flourishing of black people. 

So, this is how I enter into the conversation in human history is to say that, you know, look at these amazing black psychologists, who’ve done this work up until now. And even in more recent years, you’ve had, you know, certain works that highlight, you know, black psychology. I’m thinking about various volumes, on the black psychology, which are available. All we gotta do is look ’em up and, and teach from them and study from them. And we’ll be better equipped to care for black people. And one of the things that I saw was even as I, I did the research, there was not much of anything highlighting the experiences of black men in their own words. And so I felt like it was important to actually, how about we actually talk to black men, see how they experience life, make a space for their stories to be told, and then, to do some reflection about how can we nurture, not only their survival, but also their flourishing.

So this is how and why I develop, what I name as a hope to keep going model. For care and counseling, which is in my book care for the mental and spiritual health of black men. One of the, the folks I build off of is Victor Anderson. Who’s also at Vanderbilt. And one of the things that he talks about is that for too long, black existence has been taught to suffering and resisting that suffering. So in his book beyond ontological, blackness, you know, he makes an argument that, black folks should not be tied solely to an existence of, you know, suffering and then having to resist that suffering. But he’s like everybody wants to flourish including black people. 

Carrie: Right. 

Dr. Nicolas: So what does it look like for us to not. Get rid of the need to resist all these oppressive things that cause us to suffer. We’re always gonna have to resist those things, but what does it look like to also think about how do we intentionally nurture the, the flourishing of people? So I pick up on that in my book and say, “Hey, this book is about certainly nurturing the survival, the healing and the liberation of black men”, and also the ultimate step of this work is to nurture the flourishing of black men. So that’s a significant aim of my book. 

Carrie: Awesome. It’s really great. So at the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Dr. Nicholas: Wow! I was just thinking about this the other day with the person and saying that there was a moment when I was, it might have been 11 or 12 years old, and I started playing piano when I was five years old, started playing saxophone when I was nine years old. And I remember I was at a church, my home church there in Atlanta and the pastor at the time, you know, he references, you know, the words in the Hebrew Bible and you know, the Old Testament during his sermon, he asked a question, what has God placed in your hands? And that was a significant question for me to reflect on, right? Because I then began to recognize, oh my goodness, I’ve been blessed with all these different gifts and ways of being. And, and then part of that work of God and the act of God that I experienced throughout my childhood was a village of people. Whether it was from that church or, you know, from the various schools I attended, you know, and certainly middle and high school. People who saw these gifts, these things that God placed in my hand. And help to nurture those gifts.That that’s been a significant, you know, gift that I experienced and, and act God in my life that has nurtured my own survival and flourishing. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really, like amazing. We take that step back and realize, like what God has gifted us with. 

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely. 

Carrie: Thank you for having this conversation. I’m always very interested and open to hearing people from other perspectives and other lived experiences that I haven’t experienced. So I, hopefully it will enrich other people, as they listen to conversation as well. 

Dr. Nicholas: Absolutely.

Carrie: Regardless of your cultural or racial background, I hope that you found this interview interesting, and that maybe you learned something from it that you didn’t know before. One of the things I’ve really enjoyed about doing the podcast has been the variety of different people that I’ve gotten to interview and talk with people from really all over the world, Canada, London, Africa. 

We haven’t had anybody that I’ve interviewed from Australia. So if you’re in the mental health space in Australia, I know we have listeners out there, certainly hit me up on the website and let me know what you’re doing in your community and in your part of the world. For all of our listeners, if you enjoy the podcast and you really feel like you have benefited from these episodes, I want to encourage you to think and pray about giving back. This is a ministry that reaches people all over the globe. You can support our show financially either through Patreon or buy me a coffee. We will have both of those links in the show notes for you. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of, By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guest are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

68. Approaching Insomnia Differently with Martin Reed

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 68. Approaching Insomnia Differently with Martin Reed

In today’s episode, Carrie sits down with Martin Reed, an insomnia coach with a certification in Clinical Sleep Health, to discuss how to approach insomnia differently and how to regain control over your sleep.

Episode Highlights:

  • Martin’s personal experience with insomnia and how it led him to become an insomnia coach.
  • The common misconceptions about sleep hygiene and how it differs from long-term insomnia treatment.
  • Techniques grounded in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I) that can help you improve your sleep.
  • Why spending too much time in bed may make your insomnia worse and why it’s crucial to get out of bed if you’re struggling to fall asleep.
  • How behaviors like checking the clock during the night can exacerbate insomnia, and why you should avoid it.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Christian Faith and OCD (Episode 68), I interview Martin Reed, an insomnia coach, who shares some practical advice on how to tackle sleep issues. Martin, who has a certification in Clinical Sleep Health, talks about his personal struggle with insomnia and how it inspired him to help others. He explains that traditional sleep hygiene techniques don’t always work for those dealing with chronic insomnia, and instead, he recommends techniques based on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I).

Martin explains how behaviors like spending too much time in bed and checking the clock during the night can actually make sleep problems worse. He also shares strategies like getting out of bed if you’re struggling to fall asleep, which might seem counterintuitive but actually helps break the cycle of frustration and restlessness.

He also touches on the importance of avoiding naps during the day, as they can reduce “sleep drive,” making it harder to fall asleep at night. He emphasizes that sleep isn’t just about time in bed—it’s about setting up the right conditions for quality rest.

If you’re dealing with insomnia, Martin’s tips are worth trying, as they helped him and others regain restful sleep. Tune in for a deeper dive into how to improve your sleep and say goodbye to restless nights.

Links and Resources:

Matrin Reed

Explore Related Episode:

68. Approaching Insomnia Differently with Martin Reed

Transcript

Today on the show. I have an interview with Martin Reed. Who’s going to talk to us about approaching insomnia differently? Martin is an insomnia coach. And has this certification in Clinical Sleep Health. He’s going to provide some really practical advice on the show today. And I have to be honest to say that I really needed this and utilize some of it in pregnancy. I had horrible experiences with restless leg syndrome, and then later it changed. Lots of insomnia and it took me a little while to get into this rhythm, to work through and overcome it. So if you have trouble sleeping, like many people do, you’re really gonna want to tune into this episode. Martin, tell us a little bit about your own struggles with insomnia and how that led you to helping others with their sleep.

Martin: I was always one of these people that never had an issue with sleep. I loved to sleep. If it was advisable, I would have put it on my resume. You know, it was just the IXL that, and so it was something I never really thought about back in, it was, a long time ago, 2000. I think it was, I immigrated from the UK to the US and I was also getting married at the same time. So lots of big life changes. And at that time I experienced some sleep disruption. Never really thought much about it, you know, because everyone has some difficult nights from time to time. And I figured that it was just one of those things and it will get better, but it didn’t, and it was strange.

Because then I started to get a little bit more concerned about it. Not, not like crazy concerned, but this is an emergency, but just more concerned about it. And I started to do things to try and fix the problem, right? Because in life, when we have a problem, we try and fix it. But instead of sleep getting better, it seemed to get even worse. And then this led to more REM. Now, you know, I was starting to get really concerned about what was going on. So like what most of us do when we have issues or problems, we turn stopped to Google and see, see what the solutions are. And to be honest, that wasn’t a lot of very helpful information out there, I think has got a little bit better sense.

But back then, there was a lot of information that wasn’t helpful and it mainly centered ironically on sleep hygiene, which unfortunately is one of these things that people with chronic longer-term insomnia are often told about already know about. And we actually know that it’s not helpful for people with chronic insomnia because it’s more to do with prevention rather than treatment or cure.

You know, it’s a bit like if we get a cavity, we brush our teeth, then it’s not really going to help. But if we brush our teeth before the cavity, it’s helpful, then, you know, and, and I also thought it was a little bit condescending that someone would say, “well, if you have a hot bath or make sure there’s no light in your bedroom, or you set the right temperature in your bedroom, then everything’s going to be okay”. And so I was just really struggling, you know, because there was this problem that I’d never experienced before. 

There was all this information out there that just didn’t seem relevant or helpful. But, tubs, I kept on looking and I came across these techniques, which we now know, which I now know of as, grounded in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia CBTI techniques. And it’s just about changing our behaviors in a way that helps create better conditions for sleep. 

So I found these two specific techniques, that was, don’t spend as much time in bed. Which seemed completely illogical because I wanted to spend more time in bed to try and catch up on sleep and get more sleep. And upon reflection, you realize that more time in bed usually means more time awake and therefore you end up kind of perpetuating this sleep disruption. And another technique was to just get out of bed. If you’re struggling in bed, you’re just spending a lot of time away. So figure figured, you know, all right, thIs sounds different. 

These don’t sound logical at first glance and maybe there’s something to them, you know? So I tried them out and I found them really helpful. I started to regain that sense of sleepiness when I went to bed at night, by going to bed a lot later than I was. And it also just made the nights a little bit more pleasant because I had that option now, instead of just staying in the bedroom, being in bed didn’t feel good. I could just, like, get out of bed and maybe watch some TV or read or just do something to make being awake a bit more pleasant rather than just tossing and turning. So anyway, to cut a long story short, as I found these techniques helpful, I figured these techniques need to be out there more.

There’s not enough support out there for people with chronic insomnia. There’s a lot of misinformation. I ended up just starting off by creating, like a forum, just people, for instance, with insomnia, just to get support. As I found that these techniques were actually really helpful, not just kind of a flash in the pan that helped for a week. And then I was back to square one, but I actually found that they were helpful over the long term.

I figured maybe I can be someone who also shares these techniques. And so there were some people in the forum. I said, “Hey, let’s. I’ve learned about these techniques. If you’re interested, let’s see if they help you too”. And they were helping other people too. So I figured out there must be rid of that. It really is something to this. And so that just kind of led me to where I am today. Over the course of a number of years, I decided that I want to get the word out about these techniques. 

I want to help people coach them through this with evidence-based techniques, not this kind of sleep hygiene stuff. And so that was when I ended up going back to school, I obscured my master’s degree, becoming a health coach, getting certification in Clinical Sleep Health and sending up in Insomnia coach.com, which is my sleep coaching business for people with insomnia. So, it was basically a journey of my own experience. And that’s what led me to where I am today. 

Carrie: What you say, is there some kind of time limit for people? If you, for example, if you’re laying in the bed past. Is it 20 minutes, 30 minutes, then you should probably get up and do something different or try something else?

Martin: It’s a tricky one. Because, if we’re following, kind of the latter of the technique, we usually see people suggesting. If it’s like 20 minutes or 30 minutes of wakefulness then to get out of bed. But sometimes I find that’s not so helpful because it leads us to kind of lying in bed. Has it been 20 minutes? Has it been on my own, 15 minutes? Is it 10 minutes? Maybe I should check the time when we do all these things that ratchet up that brain activity. 

So usually I find it helpful to just be like, what does it feel like to be in bed? If it feels pretty good, you know, you’re calm and relaxed, then maybe we don’t need to get out of bed because that implies that conditions might be right for sleep. So there’s no need to jump out of bed. And that way, when we just use how we feel as a gauge, we might be less inclined to monitor for time or to check the time during the night, which usually isn’t very helpful. 

Carrie: Let’s talk about that. Some more, like, as far as behaviors that you see people with insomnia engaging in. That isn’t helpful. So for getting a good night’s sleep. So one of the things you would say is like clock checking, like what time is it? And then doing that calculation. Okay. Now I’m only going to get six hours of sleep. 

Martin: Exactly. I think, I don’t think we need to be like, really committed to avoidance. Sometimes we’re going to see the time. That’s fine. It’s when we kind of seek out the time. I think that’s when it can be a little bit problematic. I’m still waiting to hear from someone who told me who has chronic insomnia, who told me that checking the time during the night, like actively checking the time through the night, made them feel good and was helpful.

Usually the best outcome is neutral, but most of the time, like you just said, it leads us to think, okay, how much sleep if I go, how long have I been awake? How much time do I have left? Just get all those cogs tony again. And it seems like such a small thing. Just not to check the time during the night.

I have so many clients that tell me that was one of the most helpful things they did just making that change because it’s one less thing for the mind to be concerned with during the night, in terms of other behaviors, we commonly see people with chronic insomnia, completely understandably engaging in, but that kind of backfired on us is like a touched upon just spending too much time in bed or allotting too much time for sleep. And so we might be giving ourself a sleep schedule where we’re going to be in bed. 8 hours, for example, because we want to get eight hours of sleep or I, you know, I’ve had clients that have moved on to spending nine hours in bed, 10 hours in bed, 11 hours in bed, because they’re just so desperate to kind of get more sleep, to create conditions for sleep.

But unfortunately, this backfires on us because. What happens is we usually then go to bed before we’re sleeping enough a sleep. We can go to bed. It’s really easy to confuse fatigue with sleepiness. Fatigue is kind of feeling run down, worn out, exhausted difficulty, concentrating that brain fog, which I’m going to throw it out there. I’m going to guess that 99 to a hundred percent of people with chronic insomnia experience all of the time. And it’s really easy to confuse that with sleepiness and to think, that means it’s time for bed. That sleepiness is just finding it hard to stay awake. And that only occurs when we’ve been awake for long enough.

And when we have a lot of concern about sleep, sometimes we need to be awake for a little bit longer than we used to be in the past to build up enough sleepiness, to kind of overpower all that stuff that’s going on in our mind. So, spending too much time, allowing too much time for sleep, getting out of bed all different times.

You know, according to how we sleep from night to night time, the ironic thing that we see with people with chronic insomnia is often let’s say, you’ve set your alarm for six AM, you fall asleep? Finally at like 5:30 AM. So you get half an hour asleep, human nature. You’re going to want to turn that alarm off and get that sleep because it’s now happening. And it feels great at the time to do that, but unfortunately, it’s a little bit like kicking the can on the road. You know, we might get that bit of extra sleep when we do that, but we kind of setting ourself up for sleep disruption the very next night, because we’ve been sleeping for later in the day. We’re back to, then we’re not going to have as much time awake during the day to build up that sleepiness for the next night. 

Carrie: So naps good or bad, or is it hard to know? Just kind of depends on the person. 

Martin: Think for safety. Naps are always appropriate. You know, if we actually feel like we’re going to fall asleep without warning and we need to drive or operate machinery or something like that, you know, safety trumps everything. But ideally we want to avoid those daytime naps just because they’re going to reduce what we call sleep drive. One way we can imagine sleep drive is like, if we take a balloon and we’re blowing air into a balloon, every puff of air into that balloon is like an hour that we’re awake and we sleep when that balloon bursts.

So when we first wake up in the morning, you know, an hour, every hour of waiting, a furnace blowing air into that balloon blowing air into that balloon. And, and the idea is by the time we go to bed, that balloon is really close to bursting. We get into bed, pop the balloon burst and we sleep. So if we imagine that kind of analogy for naps, our balloon is about half full during the day. Then we nap. We’re kind of letting air out of that balloon. And then we got the rest of the day. We ended up going to bed but the balloon is still a little bit floppy, you know, not really close to bursting. So it’s one of these things that, and that might feel good at the time during the day, but then we’re kind of setting ourselves up for some potential for sleep disruption the following night.

Carrie: That makes a lot of sense, actually. It really does.

Martin: Another reason why it can be helpful to just avoid those daytime naps is it can also be just another area of concern because people with chronic insomnia. Often try to nap during the day because they’re chasing sleep. We’re so desperate for sleep to happen, whereas people without chronic insomnia they’ll nap during the day, because they’re sleepy, they’re finding it hard to stay awake.

So a lot of the time, especially my experience, I see clients. They try to nap during the day, but then they can’t nap. So that generates even more concern because then they’re like, oh my goodness, I’m really struggling to sleep at night. And I can’t even sleep during the day when I try to nap. So just by removing naps from the equation, we’re eliminating that potential source of more concern. And we’re also banking all that daytime sleep drive to help with sleep at night. 

Carrie: There’s so much of this, that’s connected to stress. So it’s like I’m stressed and then I can’t sleep. But now, because I can’t sleep, I’m stressed about not sleeping. And that really leads into the thought process that people get into with insomnia. So talk with us about that. Some of the common thinking errors that people have.

Martin: Absolutely. My thinking on thinking, my thinking on thoughts has definitely evolved over the last few years when I first learned more about these CBT I techniques. The traditional way of thinking that is the, we have, like dysfunctional thoughts, thoughts that are inaccurate or incorrect, and that we should perhaps evaluate them, criticize them, or try and change them into more accurate, or more positive thoughts.

My thinking now is that. We don’t need to really do any of that because thoughts are thoughts. Sometimes thoughts are true and they’re accurate, sometimes they’re not. So, but we don’t necessarily need to get into an argument with our mind because these are thoughts. Thoughts can make us feel good. Thoughts can feel unpleasant, but they’re still thoughts. And we can still control our actions and our behaviors, regardless of what the mind tells us. Even though sometimes that, that prompting from the mind. Can lead to us responding. Behaviourally almost instantaneously and make us believe that thoughts control our actions with some practice.

We can help to kind of decouple our actions from our thoughts. So I don’t know if they asked you a question, but generally now I take the approach that there’s no real dysfunctional thoughts, per say. There are just thoughts and that we can always work with our thoughts in a way that separates our actions from our thoughts so that we can still do things that create good conditions for sleep. And we can still do things that help us move toward the kind of life we want to live, even with all those thoughts going on in our minds. 

Carrie: I think really learning to become an observer of your thoughts and not having to get sucked into every single one that you’re having or believe that it’s somehow. Character reflection on you or that you have to act on it kind of what you were saying. It’s like, you can have a thought. And certainly, we have thoughts all the time that we don’t act on.

Sometimes we have thoughts that we should act on like, I should exercise. And we don’t. And then other times, you know, we have thoughts and we’re like, that was out of left field. That’s not really who I am or what I lined with. So do we have a misperception though, sometimes about sleep just from what we’re told with doctors and you know, I have to get my eight hours and you know, I’ve just heard conflicting things on that. I’ve heard some people say, you know, well, no, you don’t necessarily have to get eight hours. It just depends on your age and your own kind of individual makeup. Some people need more sleep than others. Any thoughts on that?

Martin: Definitely. You know there’s a lot of misleading information out there about sleep. A lot of it does focus on sleep duration. So many of us can have the belief that we need to get eight hours of sleep, or we need to get a certain amount of sleep. The thing about that is anytime we read information about, we should be getting a certain amount of sleep, it’s always just based on averages. It’s a bit like saying everyone should be five foot, 10 inches tall, just because that’s the average height. I don’t know if that is, but I’m just guessing here, but you know, all I’m just getting at is it’s just one of these things that’s based on averages.

So there are always going to be happy, healthy people that exist outside of these averages. Just like with our height, we can’t control sleep duration. We can help, we can use our behaviors in a way that creates good conditions for sleep, but in terms of how much sleep we’re going to get, we have no control over that. And often we get most caught up in the struggle when we do try and control that a lot of the clients I work with, they find the best, just such a relief to know that they don’t need to aim for eight hours or seven hours of sleep. 

You know, they just need to allot an appropriate amount of time for sleep. You know, give themselves the opportunity to get sleep. And the body is always going to generate at the very least the band and minimum amount of sleep we need. No matter what, as long as we’re giving it the opportunity to generate sleep, we never lose the ability to sleep. So it’s really about just trying to not control things that we cannot control and sleep duration is one of the things that we can’t control.

Unfortunately.

Carrie: That’s an interesting concept that I’ve never really thought about or pondered. It’s like, I don’t have control over what my body does, how long it stays asleep and whether or not, you know, I’m able to wake up rested. It’s like I have to provide the opportunity, but then my body has to kick in and, and sleep with it. Interesting. 

Martin: Exactly. One thing about, well, just to add onto that one thing that we often see when we read these articles about sleep duration. They’re really aimed primarily at people who aren’t getting enough sleep because they’re kind of burning the candle at both ends. They’ve got a busy home life. They’ve got a busy work life, so they’re just not giving themselves the opportunity to sleep. We’ve got, I think a lot of this advice or information about try and get seven to nine hours of sleep or whatever it is people are saying these days is, comes from a good place where it’s aimed at people who are only giving themselves four hours to sleep because they’re not prioritizing sleep. 

Because they’re too busy, doing everything else, people with chronic insomnia at the opposite, they are prioritizing sleep. They are giving themselves plenty of time for sleep. So I think the messaging comes from a good place, but it’s just aimed at a different audience. Unfortunately, the only people that are really paying attention to all this information are the people with chronic insomnia who it doesn’t apply to quite so much.

Carrie: So I would imagine there’s a lot of people listening to this podcast who deal with Anxiety and OCD, and they’re saying, okay, the problem I have, I feel maybe physically tired, like I’m ready to go to bed, but then it’s like, my mind is on overdrive and it wants to think about all the things I have to do tomorrow, or what happened today or things that are bothering me that I can’t control. Are there any helpful tips for people who just have a hard time shutting their mind off, who want to go to sleep? 

Martin: Definitely. Well, I think first and foremost is making sure we only go to bed when we’re truly sleepy enough for sleep. I’m talking about finding it hard to stay awake. Because, our sleep drive system will always overpower like that arousal system or the mental chatter once it’s strong enough, no matter what, without fail, it might take a night or two, but sleep will always happen, that sleep trifle always be strong enough at some point.

So we can always get ourselves one step ahead by making sure we only go to bed when there’s that strong sense of sleepiness. And then in terms of. All that mental chatter, all the mental gymnastics, really all that is, it’s our brain looking out for us. You know, it’s not a brain trying to cause us problems. It’s like our brain is being a really overly enthusiastic friend. Who’s trying so hard to help us out. It’s just kind of getting in the way. So I think just recognizing that, you know, this isn’t an adversarial relationship. It’s just our brain trying too hard to help us out. That can be helpful. And just recognizing that that’s what our brain does.

Our brain’s number one priority is to look out for us. Often we get most caught up in all this mental stuff. When we quiet, understandably, try to fight them or avoid these thoughts, these feelings, these emotions, because they’re unpleasant. So naturally we don’t want to experience them. But unfortunately that’s when we usually get most caught up in the struggle, trying to fight them, trying to suppress them.

It’s not usually helpful over the long-term short-term. Sometimes we can, like push feelings and thoughts away. They always come back and then when they come back, they tend to be stronger. It’s a bit like pushing a beach ball down under the water, you know, it’s just going to push back harder and harder. The more we put, try and push it away. Sometimes I think it’s just helpful to recognize, like, this is my mind looking out for me, I’m feeling, identifying and acknowledging everything it is feeling. I’m feeling this is my anxiety coming back. This is my frustration and my anger, whatever it is, you’re feeling. Just identifying it, labeling it, recognizing it, not trying to fight it or push it away can be really helpful. 

Just the fact that we’re thinking certain things or our mind is racing. Doesn’t mean we’re not going to be able to sleep. We can still sleep when we have difficult thoughts and difficult feelings and difficult emotions, but it becomes a lot more difficult for that to happen when we try and get engaged in controlling them and pushing them away or trying to avoid them, trying to fight them. And I think, you know, as a last resort, kind of what I touched upon. Aaliyah was if you’re just spending a lot of time in bed and it really just does not feel good to be in bed. It might be helpful to just get out of bed and just do something a bit more pleasant until conditions feel a bit better for sleep.

Carrie: Talk with us about what the CBT I program that you have looks like, is it over a course of a certain number of weeks or a certain number of lessons that are involved in it? What does that look like? 

Martin: My course is kind of grounded in many of these techniques that are taken from CBTI. It’s not CB type itself because technically that is a therapy. And I’m not a therapist. So I just coach people on these techniques. There’s kind of, I take what I personally found helpful from this collection of techniques and what other clients have found helpful along with just some other things that are more grounded, maybe more towards the act model, acceptance and commitment therapy. 

So, it kind of combines them, a little bit of cherry picking. And my online course runs for eight weeks and it’s conducted online. Clients can fill out sleep journal. And check in with me as they progress. And the way it’s currently structured is the first week is just about education, you know, sleep education, because like we touched upon, there’s a lot of confusing and maybe misleading information out there about sleep, how much sleep we need, what a normal night of sleep is like. And then as the weeks progress, we start to introduce these behavioral changes that aren’t intended to make sleep happen or to control sleep, but rather to help address any behaviors we might have implemented to try and improve our sleep that are kind of backfiring on us and to just change our behaviors in a way that creates good conditions for sleep.

So we kind of come up with a sleep schedule and earliest possible bedtime. Consistent with our bedtime in the morning, we talk about what to do during the night. If we’re awake, like you just touched upon all the mind games going on. What if we wake up in the middle of the night, we can’t fall back to sleep. What do we do? And we also just go through ways that we can explore our thinking, you know, not to control our thoughts, but just to maybe change our relationship with our thoughts where maybe we’re less influenced. By our thoughts and feelings, we’re less inclined to try and control them. And we kind of get independence back over our behaviors, but it’s the, our thoughts. Aren’t kind of dictatorial and control all of our actions. They’re the kind of core educational components, but really it’s kind of, it’s quite different for every client I work with because it’s very customized in terms of the specific challenges that each client is facing. We work together to focus on where the client feels the priority should be in terms of where they’re struggling and what their challenges.

But, so it’s, so it’s educational based and the changes, the components are introduced gradually over a course of eight weeks, which I also find is helpful. So it’s not. We should do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this go, you know, there’s completely overwhelming. We just say, okay, first week, let’s just do focus on some more education the second week.

Let’s see if we can change the sleep schedule a little bit, the third and fourth week. Maybe let’s practice getting out of bed if being in bed doesn’t feel good. You know, so it’s all gradual so we can learn a new technique, become a little bit more comfortable, confident with it before we then add most stuff.

Carrie: So as we’re winding down at the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Martin: You know, I think it would really go back to my own experience when I was first struggling with insomnia. And I learned about techniques that, once the hygienic pastes that were a little bit different and that in itself. Just gave me hope because when I was just finding the sleep hygiene stuff out there, that wasn’t helpful to finding these new techniques gave me hope and it gave me the motivation to give them a try. And I think that kind of inspired me to use those techniques, to offer hope to other people as well. You know, it’s this kind of knock on effect, first of all, through the forum and then through how that’s expanded. You know, through my own podcast as well. And just working with clients, seeing that transformation, sharing their transformation, just spreading that hope out there to others as well.

Carrie: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom with us about using these techniques that are very practical for overcoming insomnia. 

Martin: Absolutely. It’s been a pleasure to me? 

Carrie: We would love for you to help us get the word out about the podcast. I know, you know, at least one person in your life right now, who is having difficulty sleeping, feel free to forward the link to this episode to them and let them check it out.

You can always rate and review us on iTunes, and that helps our show as well. Thank you so much for listening.

Christian Faith and OCD is a production of, By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock. Licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.

67. The Personal Story Behind the Mental Health Alliance with Joe Padilla

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 67. The Personal Story Behind the Mental Health Alliance with Joe Padilla

Joe Padilla, a licensed and ordained minister, and co-founder of Mental Health Grace Alliance.  Joe shares with us how his family was personally impacted by mental health and how he was able to work through it.

Episode Highlights:

  • Stepping down the ministry to navigate his wife’s mental health issues
  • Barriers to seeking professional and pastoral help
  • Doing research and equipping himself to help his wife overcome her mental health condition
  • Learning how to integrate neuroscience, psychology, and biblical scriptures for mental health recovery
  • Reinventing support group models and curriculum that integrate faith and science. 
  • Joe’s work at Mental Health Grace Alliance

Episode Summary:

 I first heard about the Mental Health Grace Alliance through a previous podcast guest, and I’m thrilled to introduce you to their impactful work. Joe Padilla, a licensed minister with over two decades of experience, shares his personal journey and the creation of this remarkable organization.

Joe opens up about his and his wife’s battle with mental health challenges, including depression and anxiety. Despite seeking various forms of help, they encountered numerous obstacles. Joe’s deep exploration into neuroscience and psychology eventually led to significant improvements in his wife’s condition. This journey inspired him to develop a holistic approach to mental health care.

Our conversation delves into the fragmented nature of mental health care systems, where the lack of communication between professionals often results in a disjointed approach to treatment. Joe advocates for a holistic approach where individuals are empowered to thrive despite their conditions. This emphasis on “approach goals” rather than merely managing symptoms aligns perfectly with our podcast’s mission to provide hope and practical strategies for mental wellness.

We also touch on the vital role of community support. The stigma surrounding mental illness often leaves individuals feeling isolated, which can hinder their willingness to seek help or share their struggles within their church community. Building a supportive and understanding community is crucial for effective mental health care.

Don’t miss this conversation with Joe Padilla and learn how the Mental Health Grace Alliance is transforming mental health support within the church.

Links and Resources:

Mental Health Grace Alliance

Transcript

Another really great personal story interviews for you guys today. Before we hop into that, though, there’s a couple of things that I wanna say on a more personal note. On the podcast here, it’s very hard to talk about current events due to the nature of having a counseling practice and trying to keep my own sanity as I’m recording this introduction. I know that this show won’t come out for another six weeks. Also, my interview actually was recorded several months ago. However, I feel like because we have such a worldwide audience that it’s really important for me to say. A couple of things about what’s happening in our world. At this point in time, Russia has invaded Ukraine and it’s a very heartbreaking situation.

We know from what Jesus told us that in the last days. There are going to be wars and rumors of wars. So this should not come as a surprise to us. I hope though, that these recent events have reminded you to pray for your brothers and sisters all over the world who are in war-torn countries, or who are experiencing persecution for their faith. If you have freedoms and the country that you are in to worship and praise God as you, please, if you are able to go to bed tonight and not have to worry about being bombed, we need to be very thankful because we may not always have those freedoms. We don’t know what the future holds for us, but we know that God loves us and that God is with us. And if by some chance you are in Ukraine and you’re listening to this, just know that we love you. And we are praying for you.

Today on the show. I am interviewing Joe Padilla, who is the CEO and co-founder of the Mental Health Grace Alliance. I didn’t know anything at all, really about the Mental Health Grace Alliance, until I was told by one of our previous guests that I needed to look into this organization. They’re doing some amazing things, just combining this passion of helping people who have mental health issues in the church. And Joe is gonna share his own personal experience of how they got started. Joe, tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Joe: I am a licensed and ordained minister. I’ve been in ministry for 20, some odd years now. And my background really kind of started with missions and then local ministry, and then really running the Grace Alliance as a mental health type of ministry, helping churches and individuals and families now based out of Texas. So, that’s where we are.

Carrie: Awesome. I know that your family was personally impacted by mental health, and that’s kind of how you got on this journey. Tell us a little bit about that.

Joe: When we started a ministry, basically in missions that we were on the field for probably a total of 10 years in regard to that. And during that time, we noticed a lot of challenges with my wife’s mental health, as far as depression, anxiety, and different things like that, which led us to come back, worked locally within the church and stuff.

But while we were here trying to get the mental health care system, you know, all of those pastoral care as well and all that kind of stuff, but really nothing ever really kind of progressed for her from both the professional and the pastoral, which got to the point where we actually had to step down from ministry because of those. 

We’re extremely challenging for her, for us and for our kids. And then really started to try to figure out, and how do we navigate this journey? And it was a time when we stepped down, that where we started to focus on how, do we really navigate this? And so I started to dive into really learning. What is neuroscience? What is, the psychology, all these types of things. Cause I wasn’t getting all of that information. And as you know. With the church leaders and things. That’s one of the areas where they just don’t get a lot of equipping and training and being a leader myself, I just didn’t have that. 

So it really took the time to kind of research and look at all those. And it was finding this way that you really could navigate this for kind of what’s called mental health recovery. And no one was talking about that. They were just talking about management and things like that. Long story short, I started to apply all these principles and then over about a year and a half period, I saw my web significantly improved. Through her journey where we’ve never seen any of that kind of progress in the last kind of eight to 10 years of suffering. And that led us to having to leave, ministry altogether. And then here we are now, building, rebuilding life, our marriage or family and everything. And just looking at all these concepts are using a real whole health approach or a holistic approach and doing all that we got better medical care, the mental health professionals.

I started to figure out what works, what doesn’t work and an even from ministry, figuring out what works. And what doesn’t work and why things were getting so bad. So, from both of those end, we just kind of learn how to navigate it and figure some things out and then rebuilding life towards a new promise for us. And in front of that journey, that’s where we start to figure out there really is a way to navigate this. Even within the church, and it’s way simpler than we think, but it’s a very useful, and then that’s kind of where the organization came from that experience.

Carrie: I like that. We talked about the holistic approach a lot on this podcast, you know, it’s not just your spiritual health, it’s your mental, emotional, physical, it’s all just interconnected. And that’s how God created us to be. So I like that. I wanna mention something too, that you talked about just in terms of one navigating the system of mental health care is hard. It’s hard to find a therapist. Sometimes, you call, you make phone calls. You may not get a phone call back. People say, “oh, no, I don’t take your insurance or no, I can’t work with your availability on the days you’re available. I’m not taking new clients”. 

So I’ve found a counselor recently for myself or some things that I’m processing through being pregnant, getting ready to have a child. And just different stressors in my life. And I know how hard it was for me. And I understand the system and I understand how the system works, but it took me probably a couple of weeks to find somebody that could meet with me. And that in itself, I think can be discouraging. Did you guys have a lot of roadblocks as you were trying to just kind of navigate the system and get the help? 

Joe: Well, I think from our position, we had excellent professionals. If it just was all scattered, do you have a family doctor who’s helping you, but then you have a psychiatrist who’s coming in, but then they don’t talk. And then you have a therapist. But then the therapist doesn’t talk to the psychiatrist. So it’s just all so scattered and you’re getting all kinds of, you know, it’s like they say, you talk to 10 people and you get a hundred opinions, but I think we’re really trying to figure out what’s helpful and what’s not helpful. And then because you have a psychiatrist, who’s prescribing medication, but then sometimes they’re not paying attention to what the side effects are, how they’re playing with other medication and what really the condition you’re dealing with as well as then you’re going to the therapy. They’re really, was kind of a way of, what kind of therapy do you need on the front end of this on to once you have a lot of stability, what’s helpful? 

But if you don’t understand that therapeutic process for an individual in high crisis, in high stress, it can actually make it worse. And I see that all the time and that’s what we were going through was, this has been a health care system, is so scattered.

No one’s communicating. No one’s really understanding. And then it took time for me to learn. Wow! These medications that they’re prescribing and they keep updating them. It’s actually making it worse. Why isn’t anybody paying attention to this or the therapy? And I remember meeting with therapists and they’re trying to sole approach. I’m like, “what are you talking about? You have no idea what you’re doing”.

You have to understand what condition is, where the brain condition is from a neuroscience standpoint of what can actually be processed rather than tools based to get to the point where you can process things. So kind of an understanding, because that’s a hard journey and I coach a lot of people through this. And we look at their kind of the therapeutic process and they’re making no progress whatsoever, because I was meeting with somebody recently and talking them through that. And it’s just, like they said, “well, I don’t feel like I’m getting anywhere”. I was like, “well, how long have you been in that therapy”?. It was like, “well, I’ve been in for quite a long time”.

It was like, “you know, you’re paying for that. You should go back to your professional and say”. “Here’s this, this and this, this, how can I move forward with this and this and this”,  but they belong for a journey. And then you ended up in this conversation.

Carrie: Absolutely. 

Joe: So, again, I think that’s part of when we say the mental health care system, there is one, the availability, when you do get in, it’s looking at the process of what type of care are we actually getting into?

Is it appropriate? And is it being followed up with very well? And then you look at the community. Where’s the community support? And there’s always a gap there, especially when you get into the price centered or Christian or body of Christ or church community, that’s very lacking. And we can talk about that a little bit more later too, because that’s kind of the essence of what we do as an organization. But I think when we talk about the confusion of the mental health care system, we’re talking about all these things that just from availability to who do you see, and then is it appropriate? Is this the right process? Are you in the right place? 

Carrie: If there are a lot of moving pieces really to navigate. And I think for you being so involved in your wife’s care, you were probably able to provide a certain level of feedback, maybe things that you were seeing, that she wasn’t able to see. Cause I know that sometimes people will go into see a psychiatrist for example, and they’re just reporting on their last week instead of really looking at the whole picture and reporting maybe on their last month or their last few months, because they’re in distress. And sometimes when you’re in distress, it’s just really hard to get it out and even communicate about what’s going on with you internally with  your experiences.

Joe: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that’s when we developed our coaching and then even within our groups, we try to give information that helps when they are working on professional helps them to be a little bit more strategic with understanding their care and their follow-up. Even when you get into medication, we do have a topic where we cover that. But giving them strategic ways of how to communicate better with their psychiatrists so that you can take the guesswork out and you really get into some information that’s helpful so that you can move forward rather than just kind of guess your way through a lot of these medications. 

Carrie: Absolutely. Unfortunately, it seems to be a lot of trial and error. More so in the psychiatric realm, then in other areas of medical treatment and different people respond differently to medications and it’s hard. I wanna ask you a little bit too about there’s this medical model of mental illness and the medical model of mental illness says, “Well, you know, you just have some chemicals, are often in your brain. You’re probably going to struggle with depression your whole life, or you’re gonna be struggling with anxiety. That’s just the way it is or some genetic components, this and that”. And for me as a believer, it’s always been very challenging. And there’s a part of me that greatly rejects that model, because like you said, at a lot of it is focused on management and just focus on. 

Well, you know, you’re just gonna have these symptoms and we just got to figure out how to manage them, instead of saying, how can I live an abundant life in Christ, even though I have these mental health struggles. And that’s one of the reasons, you know, that I have this podcast and wanting to give people hope that you don’t just have to suffer. You know, there are so many different treatment options. There’s different types of therapy that you can engage in. There is alternative medicines. There’s so much hope and so much help out there. And the more that we talk about it and the more people know about it, like we have Christ, we have the ultimate hope to get better.

Was that something that you found or you process like on your journey?

Joe: You know, and I think that that comment of, is she gonna be like this roast her life and then something inside you, is going. “I don’t know about that”. You know, I think that’s most everybody, even if you’re not a believer, I think there’s just, that’s just hard. But especially in the church where we have this aspect of, well, then where’s Christ in that, you know, whereas that?, and I think if we take it from the position of, when we look at mental health recovery, or we look at that concept from a medical process or even, and that whole journey, we don’t look at it as we’re gonna try to get rid of your diagnosis. We’re gonna try to get rid of all your symptoms. 

We look at it more of, you can still flourish in life. So it’s a really about understanding. How do you build a life that is more meaningful? And that you can flourish in your life and you have much more resilience to the condition that you’re walking through. And overtime as you build your own flourishing life and you become more resilient than you actually see a lot of symptom reduction, you may not see the whole thing go away, which is fine, but you can live very meaningful and purposeful. And I think that’s a lot of times in the medical model or sometimes in the community. And no offense, because I know that there are some conditions that are challenging. And, but I think that sometimes we just get this message of you’re gonnq be like this, the rest of your life, take your medications, manage and survive as best you came in. 

I think God’s designed us for more than that, even though we have a condition because I’ve coached people with severe mental illness, like schizophrenia and things like that. And I’m telling you, Carrie, I have seen them flourish from, and I have some incredible stories, even miraculous stories where they were living on their parents’ house. And this is on disability. This is what gonna  be the rest of their life, to having a full life, getting married, having business, you know, all these types of things. You see this dramatic turnaround they’re conditioned didn’t go away. But what happened was there symptoms declined as they flourished in life, they’ll need their medication, but they’re able to flourish with a meaningful, purposeful life. I think that’s the opportunity to show people cause when I’m coaching somebody and I’m working with them, I just share with them and tell them, “look, I know that I know, that I know, that I know. It can be different than this”. You get rid of this. We’re not gonna try to eliminate this.

But let me show you what you can’t have. And that’s when we get into psychology and you’d know this more than I do as a professional, where we were it’s called avoidant goals versus approach goals. And so that management of you just live this way, avoid all these things. And because you’re, you know, avoid life and all this stuff, because you have this condition and the research shows the more you live that way. Especially, God is in that narrative, we just don’t have very, we don’t have good wellbeing and mental health as opposed to approach goals of, here’s what you can have.

This is what your life is about. Here’s the opportunity that you can have a build and you start to see better wellbeing, mental health and stuff like that. I think that’s what we do with our curriculum since the week. As Jesus did, he came and he flipped the script. And I think in mental health, we need to flip the script so that you see much better hope in a tangible way, rather than just, let’s just keep praying about this and go to your closet and keep asking God, I think there’s more to it than that.

Carrie: I love that. That there’s always hope. And what you were talking about with goals. Is that a lot of times people do, they come into counseling, they come to see me and they say, I want these obsessive thoughts to go away. I’m dealing with OCD, or I want this anxiety to go away. I want God to heal me and just take all this away. And it’s like, okay. So that’s like, step one, maybe. But what would your life be like if you had less anxiety and sometimes that really just stops people in their tracks, almost like they’re not really sure. Oh no. I just feel better. What does feel better? Look like, you know, cause feel better to, you might look differently than feel better to me. And we start to unravel this. And then a lot of times they’ll get to, well, if I wasn’t so anxious, then I would be able to have more social relationships or I would be able to start dating somebody, or I would be able to have more confidence to do the things that they believe God’s calling them to do.

So that’s a whole different thing to work for because who wants to work for just less of something. I mean, I guess in the physical realm, it’s kind of similar to losing weight. Well, I just want to lose weight. But why? Oh, cause I want to run with my grandkids. Well, that’s totally, you know, wow! You just opened up the world for yourself there, by looking at that approach goal. I like that concept. Let’s talk about community because you brought up the community so crucial. I think now more than ever. At least, what I’m seeing in the North American context, is because we do have some worldwide listeners, but in our American context, we are more isolated. And we have ever been, and COVID of course made things worse and caused people to isolate even more. 

It’s so hard sometimes for people to find, a good, authentic Christian community.

And there’s so much shame around the stigma of having a mental illness. Sometimes I’ll talk with people and I’ll say, “okay, well, who in your church knows about this? Have you talked to your pastor about this? Is your small group praying for you”? And they’re just like, “oh, you know”, it’s just like, I can’t tell anybody that I’m dealing with these obsessive thoughts. And I’m like, “but you need these people, you know, you need this help in this community”. Do you find that as well? Just in working with people. That it’s, that is hard. 

Joe: I think it’s, well, this gets into the conversation about stigma and community. Obviously, community is the biggest agent for healing and for people, anybody, even if you’re just isolated and you’re healthy.

Carrie: Right.

Joe: It’s like, not that to have a flourishing life, you have to have community. And especially when you get into mental health challenges, because it is a little bit more of a private challenge or an issue or things like that it’s often associated with fate or you’re doing something wrong, your sin, or, you know, and then it gets associated with, well, maybe that’s demonic or something like that. I think that’s been an unfortunate default narrative, which really just unfair to begin there. So it’s still with the stigma. I think it’s research nerd. So I read all this stuff and I actually went and looked at the stigma and found that there’s about 50, 60, 70 years of research on stigma, mental illness stigma.

Carrie: Wow!

Joe: And what they basically have said over all these years is the more that you try to break stigma. The more stigma you create, because we’re not built for narratives that are psychoanalytical. Or just not an institutional project, we are people. And so when you use narratives that are biomedical and things like that, we create an otherness type of people and otherness type of people fall into a brokenness and default narrative. That’s why we just create more stigma by using that type of thing. And so when we use language that we already know that we understand, as far as mental health. I often like to just, say, “you know, this, these are about mental health difficulties and disorders, or just mental health challenge”. 

This is just me personally, but I don’t like using the mental illness language because, and I know that there’s others that will advocate for that. We can all have different positions. I think that, especially from the pandemic, we’re starting to realize I’m working with more church leaders. That realized this, now that is really more of a spectrum rather than a disease division. You know, it really is a place where we all are experiencing crisis and any crisis, especially within mental health, creates a longing for meaning and community. So I think we have to understand where we are on that spectrum and things like that. Yes, there are disorders and stuff and we can work. Then there’s also people on depression, anxiety scale that would never identify themselves. As mental illness or mental health. 

Perfect example is, I worked with a professional. We were just in a conversation and I was just trying to help a family member of this professional. And they explained to me, when I say professional, they’re a business professional, the very fluent they’re very influential. And they were just saying to me that like, you know, they’re on medication, they had the classic symptoms of depression and anxiety and how that was causing a lot of relational challenges. And then they said, “well, I would never come to your website because that’s where mental illness”. You know, I’m just going to go to church and I’m going to go, do some more inner healing work, you know? And so it’s like, okay, well, that’s fine. And I think that’s because of the narrative that we often tell around mental illness is so limiting because we make it such a sickness issue that we forget. It’s a person and it’s a story. And so when we talk about mental health and things like that, even like when we talk about suicide awareness and stuff like that, I’m kind of like, Hey, suicide awareness. It needs to be called, story awareness.

You have to understand people’s story because you will become more compassionate and understanding to a story than you will to a statistic. So we use statistics secondary, not first. We use stories first because at the end of the day, there’s more commonality. If we just sit down and talk to each other, then we realize. And then the diagnosis will become a secondary concern, but it will have so much compassion because the story’s there. So in order to break the stigma within the church, we have to tell the story, humanness and humanity and where God is in that journey because mental health is all over the Bible. I mean, it is everywhere. It is so described and described a very, very well. But we don’t tell that narrative because we only use scientific terminology and then nobody pays attention. And everybody’s thinking, I don’t know anybody with schizophrenia, and this is a longer, obviously a conversation and stuff, and we help churches and leaders. And I have this document that I could, I have, you know, some leaders and stuff to help them understand. How to use the right language so that you can appeal to the right people and get them the right support. 

Because the statistics, that show that it takes about seven to eight years before someone will actually reach out and get help. But that whole seven year journey, we talk about it as a team of how do we reach the seven-year journey person, because in that place. They’re not seeing mental health, they’re just saying I’m broken, God’s working on me and this is more sanctification in my life. And so then, and that just recreates or reinforces more of that avoidance or avoided detachment type theories and stuff like that. And so, but if we can really learn the language of the seven-year journey, I think we would see much more help and much more resources that would get to people much quicker.

Carrie: So, tell us about Mental Health Grace Alliance and what you guys do?

Joe: So, Mental Health Grace Alliance, we are integrating science and faith, scripture Christ into a material that is practical. It’s easy to use. Anywhere, anytime, anybody. So we’re really trying to get you that the insight and the tools to make life better. Okay. So from a family to an individual and even for churches. And so what we do is we provide a small group curriculums and that small group curriculum can be used even personally, because we know that, that’s hard to get groups going and stuff like that. And we just encourage people, if with the curriculum, even if you just found one person, that’s a group, this size doesn’t matter. Having one or two other people. So with that curriculum, and there are 16 week, so we have one curriculum for, again, for family members. That’s the parent or the spouse who is living with somebody that has a mental health condition of some sort.

Then we have it for the individual and that’s called our living grace. So we have family grace and then living grace. And then we have a version for students, high school and college that’s written in their world and that’s a 10-week version. So that can happen easily within a semester. We have another material called to thrive, which goes through much more of the intensive process. And that’s what we actually developed our coaching program from, but we just got overwhelmed and we turned it into a self, got to workbook. From the process of revising that. So hopefully in 2022, we’ll have a new version to be released because people have turned it into groups and we can’t keep up with them.

Carrie: So awesome.

Joe: So that’s the primary thing that we do is really provide them that a topical guidance through these, this material and everything is faith-based from a sense of, here’s a scripture. Here’s a way that you guys can discover how God is inside this journey. Not you trying to get to God, but where God is relating to you. And then some science facts and subscriptions facts. That they could discuss. And a lot of times they come with a tool that they can practice and professionals love it because it’s a place where they’re just getting reinforced because we do, like I said earlier, we have a topic on medication, you know, but then the rest of the workbooks really do reinforce a lot of principles. That are very tools based within a lot of therapy programs.

We’re not doing therapy, we’re just doing the support of it. And they’re getting the resources and the help and the groups that we have they’re easy. You do not have to be a professional. They are not, they don’t replace medicine or therapy or anything like that. It is just a way to get this conversation going. You learn and get encouraged and you grow through this. And we’ve done research on these groups. So we do have published results on these groups and we see that people reduce their symptoms and they are aided mental health recovery, and they renew their faith. And then the stories that just are amazing coming out of these groups too. 

Carrie: That’s a really interesting connection, I think between discipleship and mental health recovery because they are related in the sense that we’re always on that process of striving to become more like Christ. And that’s not always just a spiritual process. It’s a communal process. It’s a self-examination process. There’s so much that goes into that. So I love that. And just the aspect of people being able to be in a group with other people who they feel like, this person gets it. They have struggles too. And we’re able to be open about that. I haven’t led a group in a while since I’ve been doing online practice, but when I did groups in person, they were so incredibly powerful. And what I would see was my clients that were in group therapy. It almost like, It’s like it lit this spark under their individual therapy work. 

It’s very hard to explain other than it was just like, that was so powerful and good for them to be able to kind of see some of their symptoms in other people and be able to respond compassionately to others. When sometimes it’s hard to respond compassionately to yourself. There’s just so much. I think that people can get out of that. And I remember walking out of one of the groups and I just thought, this is what church is supposed to be like, I was like, this is what authentic community looks like. And it wasn’t a Christian based group because I had people in there that weren’t Christians.

It was just, you know, anxiety management group. But I walked out and I went, we learn a lot in the church from group therapy, you know what.

Joe: You know, from our focus is talking to some church leaders about this recently, but what we do is we have a solution for the frustration gap in the church. And what I mean by that is someone goes to the pastor and the pastor can tell this person needs way more professional help.

And I am equipped to offer, and we have nothing here at the church for them. So they get referred out to a professional. Then they go to the professional and the professional is I ready to help you? I wanna help you, but I have no spot for you for another three to four weeks. Okay. And, I wanna send you back to the church.

There’s no support for you there. Well, here’s this community support group, but they don’t do faith. And again, some of those models that those cathartic models that I’ve seen, the research on those groups, they are not effective. It’s just venting and venting and venting.

So, but its like, and so from our standpoint, I’ve been through that. Cause I went to a support group and I was like first and last meeting I’ll ever go to in the community support group because it was so horrible and it was so discouraging. And I thought there’s gotta be a better way of this cause I have seen life in the church. And so really that frustration gap, the pastor doesn’t know where to send them other than the professional, that he doesn’t know where to send them back because there’s no Christian support other than this community support. But then there’s not here from all the time. There’s no Christian stuff in these community groups. 

So that frustration gap basically means the support group model needs to be reinvented. And so what we did is we have reinvented the support model into a discipleship growth, the journey for those who are experiencing mental health challenges. From the family to the individual. And so really giving away that they can grow in their relationship with Christ. This isn’t about, Hey, we have this group for you in the back. It meets on Thursday nights. You come to the back door, there’s coffee over there, and then you just really be quiet and was like, no, let’s give you a full dignity of a discipleship experience tailored for your experience of where you are on this journey. Cause you’re not losing out. There’s actually an opportunity for you to see this as a growing experience. So here’s this group and these groups lead themselves; they’re just facilitated. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. I’m enjoying this conversation so much and I hate to wrap it up, but I’m curious for you, just kind of looking at your journey that you’ve been on. What would you tell your younger self who had a wife who is struggling with mental health issues? If you could go back somehow and give yourself advice.

Joe: If I were to go back and I would say, look at the science, don’t be afraid of the science. I think sometimes there’s this tension between science and scripture.

And the more that I see science, the more alive scripture gets and the more research I see that the bigger God gets and I fall in love with God more. There is a beauty between science and faith. I think we’re in a new age of the church that much more open to that now where we were 20 years ago. It was a little bit more tender, things like that, but I would say, yeah, I’d say, Hey, look at the science because there really is a way, and there’s a lot more hope 9when you integrate the science.

Carrie: Is there a way for people to go on the website and look and see what groups might be running near them? 

Joe: There is. So our website is a Mental Health Grace Alliance Dot.or. And then they can just click on the, for you page and they can see our material. And then also there’s a button there on the, for you page or for the family page, just to the shows them what groups are available. There are some groups that are online and then there are some in different areas, but it’s really easy for them to start a group. We make it really easy. This free training, free support, all that stuff. All they had to do is buy a workbook. So it’s very easy for anybody to find a group. 

We have hundreds of groups all over the world and things like that, so they can evaluate and see what’s there. And then if this is a shirts that’s interested and they’re listening to your podcasts, or maybe a leader, we provide free virtual meetings for church leaders because they’re curious and they want more help. And so we provide those meetings for free and I’ll meet with them and just talk them through. And most of the time when I meet these pastors and these leaders, they don’t go longer than 30, 40 minutes because they’re ready. They just need someone to help them kind of guide them. And then they run with it. 

Carrie: Awesome. We’ll put the links in there and I’d love to get a hold of your workbooks and see if it would be helpful for some of my clients, you know, as an addition to what they’re already doing.

So, man, keep doing what you’re doing and just encouraging churches and people who are struggling.

Joe: Thank you appreciated.

Carrie: I know that some of you may really benefit from the resources that the Mental Health Grace Alliance has to offer. We will be sure to put their website in our show notes for you to click on for easy access.