In this week’s episode, Carrie brings back her favorite co-host, her husband Steve to discuss the difference between sexual obsession and lust in the context of scrupulosity, offering practical, faith-based strategies for managing these thoughts.
The distinction between sexual obsession and lust within the context of OCD and scrupulosity.
The different ways men and women process visual stimuli and attraction.
Practical strategies for men to avoid falling into patterns of lust.
The importance of recognizing and addressing unrealistic expectations regarding sin and temptation in the journey of sanctification.
How to differentiate between genuine conviction from the Holy Spirit and compulsive confession driven by OCD.
Episode 133, I am bringing back my favorite co-host, my husband, Steve, because we are talking about an important topic that affects a lot of men and not that it doesn’t affect women, but we wanted him here for the male perspective. So I appreciate him being willing to do this episode with me We’re talking about is it sexual obsession or lust and your scrupulosity wants to know
Hello, and welcome to Christian Faith and OCD with Carrie Bock. I’m a Christ-follower wife mother, and Licensed professional counselor who helps Christians struggling with OCD get to a deeper level of healing. When I couldn’t find resources for my clients with OCD, God called me to bring this podcast to you with practical tools for developing greater peace.
We’re here to bust through the shame and stigma surrounding struggling with OCD as a Christian, sharing hopeful stories of healing and helping you replace uncertainty with faith. I’m here to help you let go of the past and future to walk in the present abundant life God has for you. So let’s dive right into today’s episode.
If you haven’t heard, we are running a freedom from mental compulsions challenge on August the 5th at noon central time. You can sign up at www. hopeforanxietyandocd.com/challenge. We’re going to be giving away some cool stuff like free coaching with Carrie, and maybe some coffee gift cards thrown in there. You’re not going to want to miss it, so I will see you there.
Carrie: Steve, welcome back.
Steve: Thank you. It’s good to be back.
Carrie: You and I talked a while ago. This episode was really born out of a conversation where I started working with more men dealing with OCD and I came to you and I said one day. Please explain to me this struggle, this battle that men have with lust, just in general. That just really led into a really great conversation. I wish I had a recorder right there and we could have recorded it. But do you remember anything that you said just about how difficult it is like in society for men dealing with lust?
Steve: Word for word, no, I don’t remember. But I do remember the conversation. I agree, men definitely struggle more so with that, it seems because they are visual thinkers. Trying to remember more of the words that we had said, and I just don’t.
Carrie: When I actually came to you and I said, I need you to explain the struggle to me, you said, you’re not gonna get it, was actually the first thing that you said. I just thought that that was really profound. Just talking about how men and women’s brains work differently. Women can see an attractive guy and it’s like, “Oh, he’s cute” or “he’s hot,” and move on versus we’re not necessarily just going to jump into fantasizing about sleeping with somebody or going down that route.
Steve: I can’t say this because I’m not a woman, but I think women tend to think more so on that’s somebody I could have a future with or think a lot of women probably when they look at a man, they might not even be thinking for themselves and maybe simply thinking.
I bet he’d make somebody a good spouse. I bet I got a girlfriend that would just be a good guy for her. I bet. And this woman is probably only seeing this guy shopping in Publix or something hasn’t even spoken to him, he could be terrible, but just by looking at him, he looks nice, he’s probably a nice guy, right?
There’s an innocence there, whereas the guy, he doesn’t give a rip sometimes, I don’t think. Maybe some guys do. I shouldn’t speak for all, but he’s looking and thinking, she’s pretty. Then it goes to, if I were single, da da da da da, or, she’s, man, when I was younger I would, you know, whatever. And that’s never a good way to start a thought. You should just run right there and be done with it. I think that’s a big difference between men and women, not all.
Carrie: Right, and so you’re inundated with it all the time, like, in our culture. They say sex sells, it’s on commercials and billboards. And I had one client tell me that Instagram is basically soft porn. I know that you were trying to, like, follow volleyball at one point and had this.
Steve: That was a horrible idea. I was like, I can’t even see the ball going over the net cause they keep zooming in on who’s playing. so I just stopped. I deleted that. I didn’t want to look at it. I still have Instagram up, but I don’t use it. I mean, I should delete that, but just the same, it was awful.
Carrie: Yes and I know specifically that app, I’ve been told by other people, it targets younger men, like, even if they were just to get on there and depend on their age, it’s, it’s going to show them images that they’re going to want to look at and click on and things like that.
There’s kind of two different pathways in terms of a lot of the men that I’m working with. Some are actually addicted to pornography, and I’m very interested in that overlap between pornography addiction and OCD. I think there’s something to that, the way the brain works, and kind of just getting stuck on things.
That’s not necessarily what we’re talking about today as much. We might touch on it here and there. But those men are saying like, “Okay, I do have this struggle, but I’m working through it. I am Seeking godly accountability or I’m in some type of support group network that’s helping me work through the pornography addiction.”
A lot of times, it’s not something we’re working on directly together But they may talk about it what I really wanted to focus on today is that sometimes men with OCD are so concerned about whether or not they have lusted just by Looking at a woman That then they will go into doing mental compulsions, like, for example, they’re gonna immediately confess that as a sin, like, Oh, I don’t know if I lusted or not, so I better go ahead and just confess it anyway.
This can lead somebody down a loop. They may even just avoid interacting with other women in their life, or I can’t go to the grocery store because then I might see a woman and I might lust and things would be awful. Now it goes from that to OCD is now telling me that I’m going to leave my wife and it’s going to have these horrible consequences because I ran into a 20 something at Walmart, for example.
I wanted for you to give this male perspective on, I know it may be hard to know sometimes, but like, how do you know if “Hey, I just saw someone. She looked attractive. She had nice curves versus it’s going down like that last path.” What do you do?
Steve: Well, and I’ve told you this before. I heard a long time ago that the first look is there’s a person in front of me. It happens to be a woman. She has long hair, whatever. What’s a descriptive look? That’s it. It’s when you keep looking. That’s the problem. When it grows, when you begin to think more intimately of what could or couldn’t happen, and it could start probably innocently, like, Oh man, I bet she’d be fun on a date.
Then it goes from there, and that, I mean, that’s not the worst thing you could think of, but boy, it can really get you down the wrong path, I bet. I think it’s easy to get trapped one way or the other. I don’t know the OCD side so much, but I know on the pornography side, or the thinking lustful thoughts, it would be so easy just to keep going down that rabbit trail.
It just keeps growing. I think God gives you an out all the time, like the little voice, like, “Hey, stop it,” or the phone rings or something. But we don’t stop it. We keep going.
Carrie: I guess your recommendation would be for guys to like look away then. Like if you really think that you’re starting to get into that.
Steve: Stop looking at your Instagram account if that’s the problem. You’re going to make up every excuse to stop, I bet. Just do it. For us. For a lot of the guys that I know, we’ve gotten accountability partners. Whether we had the problem or not, one guy told me, he said, Steve, we’re men. That’s just the way our brains work. We get to stop it. Now, I don’t want to say that because if God made us in the perfect image, I really don’t think he made us, our first words be “Ooh la la.” But, not to be funny, but to be funny, to make the point. I think that you have to be careful. And so, holding one another accountable, I mean, it’s not easy.
Carrie: But what you’re saying is like, lust basically takes a second glance that may not take long, but it does take a little bit of time. So if you’re finding yourself avoiding everybody or just feeling like you’re having a hard time functioning, even Interacting with maybe other women at work or interacting with women at church because you’re afraid like, oh, I might lust after that person.
What happens is a lot of times the fear that we fear we then create, right? So then you’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, am I thinking about it? Oh, maybe I am. Well, you know, well, I can’t do that. That’s bad.” And it just creates this mental spiral and you get sucked further down into that OCD. So being able to really recognize what’s actually happening in the present is what we try to teach people.
I also think at the same time, too, that if this is a common struggle, it’s unreasonable to think that you’re just never gonna struggle with it ever again, like, especially if this has been an issue in your past, like, say, there’s a guy that’s come out of pornography addiction or come out of sexual addiction to think that person is never going to lust again seems unrealistic. Sometimes people with OCD will set themselves up with unrealistic expectations. We have to be able to, just like any other sin, we have to be able to deal with that in our life in a healthy way.
Steve: Yes. I think it’s on the addiction end of it. It’s like anything else. You don’t set yourself up to fall back into that. Could it happen? Yes. absolutely. But when you’re not setting yourself up. When you are like, “Oh, I’m going to look at this webcam today. It’s got girls on the beach playing volleyball,” but, you know, to go back to the volleyball thing, but, “Eh, it’s no big deal.” Then before you know it, you’re right back into it, I bet. So, I think you have to really, like, “I don’t need to do that.”
I’m not trying to be guilty here of anything, but, I think I’m going to avoid that today. On the OCD side, I don’t understand that as well as you do, obviously, but I really feel bad for somebody who has that fear. All he’s doing is not wanting to lust, the thing he’s not doing to begin with.
Carrie: Right.
Steve: But the fear of it is telling him otherwise, I suppose. I feel bad for that person. That’s tough.
Carrie: If you have lusted, if you have gone too far, making sure that you’re getting right with God is important. Making sure that you’re confessing your sins and restoring that relationship with God.
I think sometimes we perceive God, get so frustrated with us because We confess some of the same things, maybe that we have the same struggles over and over, but that is how we are becoming more and more like Christ is going through that sanctification process. We have to take that seriously. And at the same time, not feel like, Oh, I just keep running myself into the ground and keep making the same mistakes. You’re still loved even if you’re struggling.
Steve: Yes. This is a little different, but on the forgiving note, I am studying right now in the Bible where Jesus tells Peter, “You’re going to deny me.” He just calls him out flat out. “You’re going to deny me not once, not twice, but three times before the rooster crows.” I guess in the AM hours. Sure enough, he does. And yet, God took that. Peter realized, “Boy, I really messed up”. He felt shame. He didn’t feel worthy. I think of us with our sins. We don’t feel worthy. I can’t break this. I said I wouldn’t do it, and I did it just like Peter did. God uses him. He starts out those churches. Amazing. He is a great encourager to others. So, I think God can flip that script for you, just like he did for Peter.
Carrie: Right.
Steve: You’ve got to make the change.
Carrie: Absolutely, and I would encourage people that if you have been through something similarly like this, that if God gives you an opportunity to share your testimony, to encourage others, maybe who are having similar struggles, to do that.
It’s hard for us to admit things that have happened in our past or things that we’ve done, but God can really use those in a powerful way to impact other people. I would encourage people to think through what type of person OCD is telling them they’re going to become if they don’t obsess about not lusting because we know that OCD attacks people’s character.
Sometimes someone may believe, “Oh, I’m a perverted person because I’m struggling with this. Oh, I’m just disgusting.” Like I said before, there may be this imagined scenario. I’m going to run into some lady at the coffee shop and then run off with her and leave my wife and my kids and just ruin my entire life. It just doesn’t work. It becomes this whole rumination spiral that involves a lot of confessing, maybe reassurance seeking, confessing to your spouse, maybe, “Oh, I lusted after someone today,” and that can then cause some relationship rift.
In ICBT, we’d really encourage people to look at like, what is, we call the feared self. What is that feared self that you’re trying to run from? There are definitely ways to address that and get back to who you really are, the real self, which as Christians, is the amazing integration of like, we know who we are. The Lord tells us who we are. We’re called, we’re chosen, we’re loved, we are forgiven, we are free in Christ.
Just so many great promises and so many identity verses really in the Bible. I don’t know if we were to tease all of those out. And that’s how OCD sometimes gets people roped in or stuck into doing the same things over and over again.
What would you say to somebody who really struggles to see themselves as Christ sees them?
Steve: I would say, talk to people. Talk to someone who is a Good mentor for you, or just a friend who’s going to be honest with you though and truthful. And I think that you’ll find if they’re steering you in the right direction and giving you good godly advice, you’re going to find out that God does have something great for you.
They’re going to name your great qualities that you do have. Now God’s already maybe used you. You may not even realize it, but that he will continue to. And that honestly. You can’t do anything on your own. You need the strength of others. You need the strength of God.
Carrie: Yes, that’s good. If we’re questioning whether or not we have sinned, then certainly like we have verses in the Bible and the Psalms that talk about, you know, inviting God to search our hearts. Search me and know me, see if there be any wicked way and lead me into the way of everlasting. we really can rest and trust the conviction of the Holy Spirit as a Christian. The conviction is actually a really good thing because it means that we’re connected with God and that God is revealing to us things that we need to bring to him, that we need to give our best.
If we’re over-confessing things, it’s almost like saying I’m sorry to someone too many times. You have people who walk around and they’re like, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry,” and after a little while, you don’t know what they’re apologizing for. You have no idea what they’re apologizing for. It’s almost like they’re apologizing for existing.
I would encourage you if you’re confessing all the time, you find it like it’s a compulsion that you’re engaging in all the time, to be intentional about pausing once or twice a day, maybe in the morning, at night, and be intentional about your confessional time with God, that’ll get you out of that constant confession.
If you find yourself urging the urge to confess something to maybe shift that prayer into a thankfulness prayer or down a different route so that you can get out of that. And like we said before, too, if it is less than you’re struggling with, if it’s pornography, if you are fantasizing about somebody that you’re not married to, or you’re watching videos you shouldn’t be, you’re on, your Instagram is just full of soft porn, then you need some godly male accountability in your life. There’s Celebrate Recovery, there are other things that you can do to get the help that you need.
Steve: I think too, you were talking about your prayer life, praying to God and you’re saying you’re sorry and It doesn’t seem like the sincerity is there even, or like it’s more fear than realistic. I think there’s definitely something to be said about just sit in peace. Just sit in his presence, don’t say another word. Just sit in peace. See how long you can do that. And I’m not saying meditate solely. I mean meditate on his word. That’s great. That’s good. Just sit in peace. And then when you’re done When time’s up, if you’ve sat there for 5, 10, 20 minutes, whatever it is, what has he told you? What’s the clear thing in your mind? And there’s probably a good answer for you, a good direction, a good conversation with God in a sense, but we don’t listen enough. I mean, we come up and just, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Our daughter, for instance, does that all the time. She comes up to me. “I’m sorry, Daddy. I’m sorry, Daddy.” “What have you done? You haven’t done anything. You’re okay. You just think you’ve made me upset. I’m not upset with you.” I think God’s the same way with us. You need to just sit and listen and think about what you’re saying. Think about the problem. Think it through.
Carrie: Yes.
Steve: But that’s hard.
Carrie: We have the front porch life now. We have a small front porch with two rocking chairs on it. Love it. Two wicker rocking chairs that you worked really hard to put together. I think about something like that, like you and I could sit out on the front porch, for example, and we might not say anything to each other for a while.
You just relax and kind of sit there and we don’t always need words all the time. So these are contemplative forms of prayer. We’re going to talk about some of that in a future episode, and I think that that will be awesome. So stay tuned in for that one. If you struggle with obsessive praying.
Steve: That’s good. Those are my favorite times, or at the end of the day, or any time that I can sit on the rocker. I’m such an old man now, and I own it. I own it, and all the neighbors that we’ve met know, I like to sit in my rocker and just sit in a nice, peaceful sway, listen to the birds, and rock. That is my life. And I love it. It’s just, it makes me feel good.
Carrie: Thank you for coming on and sharing your male wisdom. I can always count on you to hop in and be a co-host when needed.
Steve: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. As always, I’ve enjoyed it.
Carrie: Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Were you blessed by today’s episode? If so, I’d really appreciate it if you would go over to your iTunes account or Apple Podcasts app on your computer if you’re an Android person and leave us a review. This really helps other Christians who are struggling with OCD be able to find our show. Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling.
Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be a substitute for seeking mental health treatment in your area.
In this episode, Carrie delves into the challenges of facing uncertainty amidst significant life transitions. Drawing from her own experiences, she offers helpful tips for coping with uncertainty and finding peace amid the unknown.
Episode Highlights:
The importance of trusting in God’s plan and finding peace amidst unknown circumstances.
Insights into dealing with uncertainty from a faith-based perspective.
Ways to find comfort and strength in your personal journey through uncertain times.
Tips for maintaining confidence and hopefulness despite facing unknowns in life.
Episode Summary:
I’m excited to share a deeply moving conversation with Heather Palacios, the founder of Wondherful. Heather discusses the intense shame and isolation she felt, particularly as a pastor’s wife, battling suicidal thoughts and actions while feeling trapped by societal and religious expectations.
Through years of therapy, medication, and unwavering faith, Heather has not only survived but has thrived, turning her pain into purpose. She founded Wondherful, a nonprofit that has sent nearly 15,000 life boxes to people struggling with mental health issues across the country and around the world. These boxes, filled with items that have helped Heather stay alive, are a lifeline for so many.
Her testimony is a powerful reminder of the importance of mental health support within the church and the healing that can come from sharing our struggles openly.
Tune in and explore how God’s love and the power of community can transform our deepest pain into a powerful testimony of hope.
Hello and welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD. My name is Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee and the host of this podcast. Today, I have an interview with Heather Palacios, who is the founder of Wondherful. We’re going to hear about her story of her own mental health struggles and what led her to start and continue. It’s just grown and grown and grown.
Carrie: We’re glad that you’re here today.
Heather: Thank you for having me, Carrie. You’re amazing.
Carrie: Thank you. I wanted to hear a little bit about your own journey with mental health. When did that start for you? How did that show up? What did it look like?
Heather: Great question. It started when I was eight. That was a minute ago because I’m 50. It started in 1981, and at eight years old, I started having thoughts of suicide, but then I actually penned it in a letter and mailed it to my grandparents. You’re the first to know this. My mom and dad found that letter recently and mailed it to me.
I’ll be using that as a prop, especially when I speak to students, but yes, it started when I was eight and has been a struggle for me up till today.
Carrie: What caused you to get to that point where they’re challenging social relationships you were dealing with in elementary school or things going on at home?
Heather: I’ve struggled with suicide for the entire timeline of my life from eight to the current, but I haven’t been in the same season, obviously, this entire time. As an eight, nine, ten-year-old, it was moving schools all the time and brutal bullying. I have a wild imagination that remembers very traumatic details. That’s always corroborated by all the journals that I’ve kept all these years. The bullying was intense and would drive anybody to want to take their life.
Carrie: Kids can be so mean and cruel and they don’t realize how that affects other kids and students. Were you bullied in elementary school and did that continue in middle school?
Heather: It started when I was eight and went through high school, but I think it was only being bullied that made me want to take my life as a child. I think as I moved into my teen years, it was being bullied, but it was also compounded by just didn’t love myself and didn’t see other options. My brain has never been able to compute other options. Other than just take your life when there’s any kind of crisis or trauma, but it was pretty purely bullying as a kid.
Carrie: As you got older, how did this constant suicidal thoughts affect you as a young adult? And, uh, did you have suicide attempts during those periods?
Heather: Yes, great question. I have attempted suicide three times and had the plan countless times.
I have been Baker acted, which in Florida’s mandatory 72 hour confinement in a psychiatric ward and was hospitalized.
Carrie: I was just wondering how things affected you as a young adult. What were some things that were going on there?
Heather: As I said, I’ve battled with suicide over every season of a person’s life, barring elderly senior citizens, because I’m not there yet.
As a child, as an adolescent, as a high school student, as a college student, as a young career, as a wife, as a mom in a pandemic and with unexpected grief, those are pretty much the mile markers in my life where I have attempted suicide or wanted to. The young adult season was a lot around relationships. Dating and being with a guy for five years and him saying, after five years, “I’ll never marry you. You’re not the kind that I would want to marry.” And that just set me off. I took a bottle of pills and tried to take my life. I saw that as the only way out of that.
Carrie: There would be these big stressful events and whenever we have stress in our life, that tends to increase our symptoms so that makes a lot of sense. What would you say was your lowest point rock bottom? You know, the only place to go is up from here.
Heather: The lowest point would have been July 30th, 2000. That was when I had been married for one year to a pastor, which made me a pastor’s wife. I just couldn’t, after a year into the marriage, reconcile kind of being the crazy lady, but being married to a pastor. A new divorce wasn’t an option for a pastor. Again, my brain only saw suicide as my way out, and that would be a gruesome attempt where my husband showed up to the scene and was unable to stop me. The 911 first responders surrounded my car and were unable to stop me. I had become manic to the point of supernatural strength, almost like a rabid animal, unstoppable.
They were forced to tranquilize me and knock me out so that they could strap me down on a gurney and rush me to the hospital where they treated my injuries, and then they shipped me off to a psychiatric ward. It was mandatory. I didn’t have a say in the matter. I was put in isolation in the psych ward on July 30th, 2000.
When you’re in isolation in a psych ward, I had vomit on me. I had blood on me. They didn’t feed me. They didn’t clean me up. It was deplorable conditions. This was 24 years ago. It was the lowest point because not only was I locked in isolation as a pastor’s wife, but as a failed suicide attempting pastor’s wife.
That was such a low, low that I didn’t even think there would be an up and had actually pretty much determined that once they released me from the psych ward, I would do it again. And I would succeed this time because in my mind, there was nowhere else to go with the coming together of being a pastor’s wife and failing at killing yourself.
Carrie: This sounds like an immense amount of shame that you were carrying for having mental health issues in the church as a Christian. Also, lso interestingly, like shame that you weren’t successful at what you set out to do.
Heather: Yes and you don’t have this Facebook group or women’s golf club society of people like me.
There was nobody, not only just in my circle, but in, to my knowledge, the country that understood what it was like to perpetually want to die, but not be able to because you’re married to a pastor. So it was a lonely existence and shameful.
Carrie: How did you go from that to starting Wondherful?
Heather: Obviously, God keeps me alive despite my efforts. Finally, once I was able to get medication, get into a regular psychologist, and maintain that to today. I identify that I have a chronic weakness in my brain, which I don’t distinguish from any other chronic weakness in any other organ in the body, so I embrace that and I take care of it. I would, if I had been in an accident, rendered to a wheelchair.
That has opened up a lot of doors—just my candidness about that, willing to talk about it—and that launched a lot of opportunities to go and speak, share the story. But it was during COVID, during 2020; I was cut off from being able to go to people. You know, our country was in a shutdown.
Carrie: Right.
Heather: By this time, I’m 20 years into using my weakness to help others, but I couldn’t go to people and they were reaching out to me. They were dying by the dozens by suicide and overdose.
Carrie: Yes. COVID was huge.
Heather: Yes. Huge and I’m not hearing about people are reaching out to me because of COVID and them dying of it. They’re reaching out to me because of the pandemic and they didn’t want to live anymore.
In my dining room here, where I am right now, some friends and I started just shipping what I would normally take in person when I get asked to go visit people in psychiatric wards, detoxes, sober living homes, hospitals, ICU units, funerals. I would always take what I call a “life box,” which is all the things I’ve needed to still be here. Instead of taking them, we just started shipping them. It became a nonprofit and we’re three years in now. We’ve had to move offices twice. I think in three years since its inception, we’ve done almost 15, 000 life boxes to every state and 15 countries.
Carrie: Talk to us about that process of moving from being so ashamed because I work with a lot of people who really struggle over having mental health issues.
As a Christian in the church community, going from that to being able to be open and allowing God to use your story, was that like a process that God really worked with you on? Or as you started sharing it, you saw the benefits of sharing it?
Heather: It was so instantaneous that the leadership was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, let’s have you heal a little bit.
I remember getting out of the psych ward and I had kind of made a deal with God in the psych ward. That’s all I had to talk to. I mean, I was in isolation. I was a threat to other people so they wouldn’t put me in a room with other people. I just lied there and it was like, talk to my demons or talk to God.
I was like, “God, if you could just get me out of here because it was deplorable.” It was everything you’d think of in a horror movie for a psych ward. But I was like, “If you could get me out of here, I’ll dedicate the rest of my life to help people not end up here. “
I was able to be discharged a little bit earlier than I was slated to be. I took that as a sign from God and I wanted to own up to my end of the commitment. I just wrote out my story from that experience, got on medicine, got under the supervision of a psychologist, and then went to the church leadership and said, I want to share my story. They were like,”Okay, not yet. Let’s have you get a little bit better.”
I waited a year and proved myself worthy of being able to share my story because I really wanted to. They put me up on stage and I shared my story about a year after getting out of the cyborg.
Carrie: What are some things that you do on a day-to-day basis that just really help and supports your mental health moving forward?
You said, this is a chronic issue. It’s not something that has just gone away. It’s something that you’ve struggled with for a long time. What are some of your strategies or things that you do to stay healthy?
Heather: I love it that you asked that because my formula is unique, but it’s working because I’m still alive and I’m so glad you asked it.
It has seven parts. It’s medication, which “certain Baptist circles love it when I say that.” it’s medication, it’s Christian counseling, it’s journaling. I even have my journal here to show you.
Carrie: Awesome.
Heather: Reading my Bible, regular church attendance. Church regularly is a free full fill up on an empty tank for me, outdoor activity, knowing my worth and having boundaries.
Carrie: Wow. So good. I’m sure you could write a book on all of those principles because I think that they’re each important. I like what you said about valuing church attendance. You feel like there is something that that does for your spirit and the sense of being in Christian community.
Have you found some strong community through the church that’s been supportive for you?
Heather: Yes. I mean, we underestimate what the church can do for our minds and God teed it up pretty well. He said, Love me with all of your body, heart, mind, and strength.” Where do we love him tangibly? Where do we love him audibly and visually in church?
I feel like it’s never returned void for me. If I show up and love God in his house for an hour on Sunday, he fills my cup to the overflow, which gives me the fuel to go the next week.
Carrie: I love that you have boundaries in there too because that’s something that a lot of Christians struggle with. We think that we have to be all things to all people, to bend over backwards, to constantly be volunteering for every single thing that has a need, and we can get burnout and not be in a healthy place mentally and emotionally from not setting good boundaries.
We’re allowing other people to speak into your life that really have no business and no need to be speaking into your life. It’s like, I don’t really need to take that from you.
Heather: Right? I mean, I take my cues from Jesus for a lot of these parts of my formula that I follow. There were thousands of people that needed him critically. They were mentally psychotic. They were spiritually lost. They were medically incurable. I mean, these are thousands of people who he loves that needed him. Yes, he did walk away from them after a certain point to go alone and be with the Father. I take him at his word literally and I understand that the harvest is plenty of people that might need you or me or the church or the pastor or the therapist, but the workers are few.
The Bible says Jesus doesn’t say pray for the harvest. He says, pray for the workers. He modeled that by showing that boundary that there are still thousands more that need me today, but I’ve reached my limit. I’ve done what I can for today. Now I need to go refresh.
Carrie: You talked about sending out life boxes.
What different kinds of life boxes do you send out to individuals?
Heather: Good question. Okay. I actually have one here. Now this is a mini life box and we use the mini life boxes for traveling and events and bulk orders because it costs less. We’ve shrank everything that we would normally send to an individual down into a mini size, but we do life boxes for anything, for anybody, anywhere.
We curate it to their plight. Plus, I’ve discovered suicide is not in a vacuum, it is not in a book. Anybody, anywhere can give up over anything. I know that personally. I didn’t try to take my life because of bullying as a married woman. There’s always different reasons. At Wondherful, we receive these requests through our website.
We not only all the options that people can have a curated life box for, but we have a big comment section because if we don’t have it listed, they can put in the comment what their plight is, what their pain is, what their despair is, and we’ll curate it for them. Specifically, the ones that are listed in the most popular are anxiety way up there. Trauma, loneliness, addiction, suicide attempt, grief ans depression would be the ones that are the most requested.
Carrie: That’s incredible that you’re able to personally tailor those to each individual and what you feel like their needs are. What’s in the box that you have there?
Heather: In a life box, the presentation is very important to me. Our team is awesome because they know my heart that I see the value of every single person, even if they don’t just now driving home. I saw the guy begging for money at the intersection and I prayed for him. I saw him because I saw him as someone that God created. This guy begging for money. He wasn’t aborted.
He wasn’t a miscarriage. God wanted him here. And so he has value in and of itself with that. So the box’s presentation has to show value to that person. We take it seriously. Like we don’t just throw crap in a box. The girls know like this, this would drive the team nuts that this tissue is wrinkled here. Take out the tissue, put a different piece in because the person opening this Carrie, this might be the only time someone somewhere has expressed their value. They open it up. This specific one is for loneliness.
After the surgeon general came out with a report saying loneliness in our country is an epidemic. We decided to add loneliness to the drop down options for a life box. The first thing that they see when they open it up is, What the heck is this that I just got? Because a lot of these are requested by other people.
Carrie: Right. They’re like, “Oh, I got a box.”
Heather: “What the heck? Who’s stalking me?
It’s got a QR code and it goes right to a video of me and I share my story and explain why they received this and then if they don’t want to, they can’t do QR codes. It says it in text right here. That’s the first thing they see, but the second thing they see is a handwritten card.
Somebody on our team wrote them a card. We’ve had people actually frame this and send us a picture that they framed it. We always include the 988 because I am assuming that whatever this person’s going through, I need to hook them up with resources that I am not qualified to give them.
This came inspired by a male executive, he said, I had your list of some life versus that I could keep in my wallet. I would. So I was like, that’s it. So we have wonderful with life versus that guys can keep then a notepad, a devotion on loneliness and Rick Warren. What on earth am I here for? This really is covers every reason for suicide. This goes in every box. A refrigerator magnet with 988. These are the staples because I spoke into this, I said, these are the things I’ve needed when I’m struggling with wanting to give up. I need a stress ball.
Carrie: Yes.
Heather: I need practical things. I cry a lot, so I need tissue. My lips get dry because I cry a lot, so I need chapstick so these go in. I have mints because I am crying. I do have probably bad breath. I also just need to suck on something that’s savory or sweet to get the starkness in my mind at least freshened up with some mint, right? They’re also called life savers. So let’s play on words. There you go. A Bible and a journal and a pen.
Those are essential. Those are non negotiable. They go in every box. This devotion says, “I just want to die.” It’s a faith based devotion and then I put like an herbal mask because this is a female box. Okay. We want her to feel comfort and then a staple that every single one gets is a never-give up wristband, inspired by my youngest brother who died last year and struggled with suicide like I did and finally got him.
I remember one conversation I had with Chris, he was so ashamed of his scars on his wrists from years of attempting suicide. Then we get a lot of, Sober Living Homes. I speak to a lot of addicts. They have so many track scars on their wrists. There’s a lot of shame with that, Carrie. Whether it’s a suicide attempt or a track scar, your wrist can be a point of shame.
I was like, “Not anymore.” They have a wristband that says never give up, that is going to be able to go over their wrists. Hopefully they’ll see that and not be shamed of their scars.
Carrie: Yes, it’s a positive reminder to keep going. Man, that must have hit you really hard your brother dying from suicide.
Heather: Yes. Very painful. It’s been my most recent biggest test for not wanting to give up myself, which is a whole nother podcast, but grief is a beast.
Carrie: Well, what do you do when you have suicidal thoughts come up now? Beause a lot of people that are listening to this podcast, whether it’s suicidal thoughts or they have obsessions that pop it in their mind that they don’t want to have there.
How do you handle those? I think there’s a lot of different directions we can take our mind and in our body and our spirit when those happen.
Heather: Well, I have to make sure that I’m doing my seven things- the formula. I have to make sure I’m doing those, but in a moment I can shift gears and a moment I can go from wanting to live to wanting to die.
The first thing that I do and the first thing that I tell everybody to do, whether they’re children, adults, Jamaican, Puerto Rican, or anything is you get to call someone. I mean, that’s backed up with research, but that’s also backed up with Jesus. Again, I take my cues from him in his darkest mental hour, where he was in such hopelessness and despair that his body was reacting by bleeding sweat.
He called somebody. Now he had followers in the thousands. He had a tribe of 12, but in his darkest hour, he called someone and the text says in the gospels that he called three, Peter, James, and John. I take my cues from him and I call someone and I actually have three in case one doesn’t answer. That’s good. That’s helpful. My first thing is I need to call somebody.
Carrie: That’s good. It’s Definitely a good advice for everyone.
I wanted to ask you one more question before we got into some stories about how life boxes have impacted people. I know a lot of people struggle with journaling. What types of things do you journal about?
Do you journal about thoughts and feelings or do you journal prayers? What kind of things do you journal about?
Heather: I don’t follow a guide. I follow my head. I have journals from when I was eight up until today. I’ve kept them all. Yeah. So I got a lot of journals. There’s never a pattern, but my brain doesn’t operate in a pattern.
Like I said, I could be wearing a smiley sweatshirt, doing this podcast, beautiful South Florida weather. And by tonight something can happen and I can want to die because I don’t have routine in my head. I don’t have routine in my journaling. What is important is that I journal simply because I can wake up or I can go to bed with all this stuff in my head, or I can put it on paper and just get it out. That’s why I’m always advocating journaling.
Carrie: Yeah, that’s good. Tell us about some stories of hope because this is hope for anxiety and OCD. What are some stories of hope of how life boxes have impacted different people that you’ve heard of?
Heather: Oh man, anxiety. We get so many for anxiety and I’ve had that. My pendulum swings between depression and anxiety. That’s a real thing and it really is a struggle beause it manifests in your mind and your body in such an intense way. There’s 15, 000 light boxes we’ve done. There’s so many stories, but one in particular is during COVID a friend of mine, she’s a homosexual Jewish addict, just had so much anxiety during COVID that she became suicidal.
Now she’s got so many issues, but reached out for a life box. We sent her an anxiety, suicide prevention, life box. She asked her coworker to record her opening up the life box. I can’t put it into words what it was like to see this homosexual Jewish addict open up this life box with anxiety resources and a Bible and a journal and all these things, and she was weeping, but more importantly, she was living and still to this day.
Not only did she continue to live and I don’t take the credit for that. That’s God and her and things that I’ll never know on earth, but she still lives to this day and is a catalyst between us and our life boxes and all the addicts. that she does life with. She’s continued to live and she’s continued to use these life boxes as ways of helping people that are struggling just like her.
Carrie: That’s awesome. If somebody’s listening to this and they want to request a life box for somebody or if they feel like, hey, I need that myself. Like I’m on the edge here. I’m really, really struggling. How do they do that?
Heather: Well, it’s easy. You just go to wondherful.com.
Carrie: Yeah. We’ll put that link in there too. We’ll put the link in our show notes if anybody’s just listening on the audio here.
Heather: You click on Lifebox and you can request it for yourself or you can request it for someone you’re concerned about and we will curate it and priority ship it. If you’re a really rich person, feel free to make a donation for your Lifebox request. We do send them out for free to everybody.
Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really incredible. Well, thank you so much for being vulnerable, sharing your story and talking to us about this organization. I think it’s so important that we talk about the hard subjects that we talk about. things like suicide that people are struggling with and letting them know there is hope and there is help and there are people that care about you and want to let you know that you are valuable and you are important and we want you here.
Heather: Yes, we do. No matter who you are, no matter how hard it is, No matter how many people don’t understand, if you wake up breathing, that’s your proof to keep going. There’s a reason you’re still breathing. That should be enough encouragement for all of us.
In this week’s episode, Carrie shares a six-step guide for finding motivation and achieving your goals in 2024. From understanding your why to making small changes, tune in for practical tips to overcome challenges and finish strong.
Episode Highlights:
Why knowing your “why” is crucial.
How to learn from past experiences to avoid mistakes.
The importance of researching the “how” for effective planning.
Strategies for handling challenging days in your journey.
Why seeking accountability can boost your progress.
Tips for choosing a good start date and successfully executing your plan.
Episode Summary:
Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD Episode 112! As we wrap up January, many of us are either pressing forward with our New Year’s goals or feeling like we’ve fallen short. If you’re finding it tough to stay motivated and need a boost to finish strong, this episode is for you. I’ll be sharing practical insights and personal experiences to help reignite your passion and keep you on track with your goals.
In this episode, I dive deep into finding the motivation to complete the goals you’ve set. We all start with great intentions, but maintaining momentum can be challenging. I’ll discuss how understanding your “why” and learning from past experiences can set a solid foundation for achieving your goals. This includes identifying what’s been holding you back and planning effectively to tackle those hurdles.
I also cover the importance of researching and planning your approach, especially when embarking on new habits or changes. From setting a realistic start date to preparing for inevitable challenges, having a clear plan is crucial. I share examples from my own life and how they’ve guided me through my health and fitness journey this year.
For the full breakdown of steps and additional tips on maintaining motivation, be sure to listen to the complete episode. I hope these insights inspire you to persevere and reach the goals that matter most to you this year.
Hi, welcome to Christian Faith and OCD episode 112. I know it’s the end of January right now, and some of you may have the gung-ho in the middle of working on goals that you started at the beginning of the year, and some of you may have given up on them completely. And some of you may be somewhere in between.
I want to do this. I want to finish strong, but I’m struggling right now. So I wanted to talk with you today about finding motivation to finish. We can have good plans, good intentions, but if we don’t know how to execute and get our plan from start to finish, then we’re going to have a challenge. I think many times we get excited. Yes, it’s a new year, fresh start. I want to make changes to my physical health. I want to eat better. I want to actually stick to my budget this month instead of just spending erratically. I want to develop relationships. Maybe I want to put more effort and energy into developing friendships, mom, friends, dating relationships, whatever your story is, maybe you have a career goal you’re trying to hit.
I want to reach a certain number of sales or I’m looking to get promoted. Whatever it is, I hope that this episode will help you to find the motivation to do the things that God has laid on your heart for this year. I’m going to give you a step process, and I’m going to give you examples from my own life of something that I’m working through in 2024.
I’ve gone through that process, it’s really helped me solidify how to share it with you who are looking for motivation. You may have hard things that you need to do in therapy, and that may be another thing that you’re trying to motivate yourself towards.
Number one is find and clarify your why.
This is so huge. Why do you want to make this change? I saw a picture of myself in December. It was a picture of my family in front of a Christmas tree at church, and I looked at how I looked physically and realized I am carrying more weight than I want to be carrying at this point. I’ve gone through various weight fluctuations over the years.
I’ve lost it. I’ve probably lost the same 15 pounds and found it several times at this point. Another thing happened in December where something popped up on my Facebook memories four years ago. I had been working out regularly at the Y and it was a picture of me with that class and the teacher had, it was her last day.
So we had all gotten together and taken a picture to kind of wish her well in her new adventure. I contrasted those two pictures in my mind and I was like, “Okay, here’s me now. I’m not happy with not just the way that I look, but I’m not happy with the way that I feel.”
I have this other picture of me where I was feeling amazing. I was moving my body on a regular basis. My mental health was great because of that movement of my body. I was getting all of those endorphin benefit. Everything that was going on. I was sleeping. There’s so many positive benefits to exercise and eating right, so I decided I’ve got to do something different and actually got sucked into a Facebook ad because apparently the little algorithm knows me too well and bought a fitness program and diet and exercise program that involves carb cycling.
One thing I decided at the beginning of this experience was that I was not going to go hungry. That was a huge thing that I had decided like, “Hey, I’m going to figure out a way to not to be hungry.” So that was supposed to be one of the benefits of this program. I had done a lot of calorie tracking and different things before and just something felt lacking. This is a macro tracking program. It’s a little bit different.
All of that is inconsequential right now because we’re still talking about your why. Why do you want to make this change? For me, I wanted to feel better. I wanted to be happier about how I look. I wanted to be more toned. I wanted to have more energy to spend time with my daughter.
I found a cave tour at Mammoth Cave. It was kind of a more rugged cave tour, not just the ones that you do the typical walkthrough of, but I thought, “Man, I would really love to go on that rugged cave tour for some self care and feeling a sense of accomplishment for myself.” I’ve loved caves for a long time. Something I probably haven’t shared on the podcast before, but caves have been always just something that have been really interesting to me. I’ve done several different cave tours, even done several of the ones at Mammoth Cave. I decided I’d really like to go on this, but if I try to go in my current physical fitness level. I am not going to feel good about it. I am going to be absolutely hurting and my back is probably going to be wishing that I really didn’t do that. I knew that I had to strengthen up my abs more. That’s one of my goals that I’m working towards is being able to do that CAVE program. There’s a bit of a multifaceted “why” that I have.
Now, your why may be completely different. A lot of times our whys, though, have to do with our relationship to self and others. If you say, I want to have a better relationship with God, That’s a good piece, but why? Try to dig down a little bit deeper. “Okay, because I know that when I’m more spiritually connected, I am more present in my family life. My priorities are in the right place because I’m putting God first and then these other things are following, just like scripture tells us.” Wen you can really dig down and find your why, and find the things that have gotten in the way in the past, I can put that as number two. I just created an extra step because we’re ad libbing this right now, which is welcome to podcasting.
Find out what has failed in the past and your learning from your past mistakes. One thing that I’ve learned from past health journeys is that the number on the scale really screws me up. I can’t be focused on that. If I’m focused on that and it doesn’t fluctuate the way that I want it to, I end up getting discouraged. If it fluctuates to a certain level, then I’m like, “Hey, I can eat more.” Sometimes I get derailed on the diet aspect of things. I knew that that’s an issue for me. I also have gotten squirrely about numbers in terms of counting calories in the past. I don’t know if that’s a little bit of an anxiety thing where I think it has different manifestations, but it can be things like, “Oh, I only have like 300 calories left today. What if I eat these 300 calories and then I’m still hungry? Do I want that 300 calories? It just can really mess with me. Did I track all of the calories correctly? That can be really derailing for you if you’re dealing with anxiety and trying to make positive health changes. So I knew that that was kind of a problem that I had run into in the past.
What I talked about a little bit earlier was I had a lot of excuses for not doing this earlier. A lot of times for me, it was easy to default and my daughter was the excuse. Well, I don’t have time because I’m a working mom and I’m busy and I’m either working or I’m taking care of my daughter. I’m taking care of my household, so therefore I don’t have the time and the energy that I need to work out. I also know for me that there are certain things I’m just not going to do. I am not going to get up at 5 am. and work out, so not set yourself up for failure if you’re not a morning person. You’ve tried in the past to get up at 5 a.m and work out and it has not gone well for you.
Why are you going to continue to try to do that which you know completely crashed and burned in the past? I see people who do that all the time. You have to find what’s going to be most successful for you. For me, sometimes that meant I have to work out after my daughter goes to bed. It may look like I have to work out at work before I pick her up from daycare or on a lunch break. You have to find what’s going to work for you. Sometimes finding what works for you is learning from the past experience and past mistakes that you’ve made. Learning from the past experiences that you’ve had.
Point number three, research the how. With this new program that I’ve gotten involved in, it’s tracking macros very different from tracking calories, and that has been a huge learning curve for me. I spent a chunk of time towards the end of December, instead of saying, “Hey, I’m gonna start this diet tomorrow, and I’m gonna be like, completely on it.”
I really looked at and researched what types of foods have less carbs. What has more protein? How am I going to get the amount of protein that I need in a day? What are some recipes that I can feed my family? Because I’m not trying to cook three different meals for three different people. I know that that’s not going to work very well. Really researching different recipe websites. What can I prep ahead of time to be able to make my life easier beecause I am a busy mom, I do have responsibilities at home and with my own business. Thinking through my meal planning process and figuring out the different types of food that I can eat to get enough protein or the right amount of carbs depending on the day because it’s cycling between low, medium, and high.
Researching of the how is important. There’s a saying that says “if we don’t have a plan, we are essentially planning to fail.” Having a plan is super important, so before you take any steps or take any changes, Let’s look at this from the mental health standpoint, when I’m encouraging clients to practice skills outside of session, whether that’s deep breathing for anxiety, whether that’s mindfulness for OCD, just learning to notice those thoughts, learning to notice their just thoughts, learning to notice that you can let them go. You don’t have to hold on to them. When they have therapy, they have set appointments to do therapy, but when they’re at home, they don’t necessarily have a specific time of the day where they do that. We talk through that. Would it be best for you to practice this in the morning when you first get up or after you get ready? Would it be best for you to practice this for five, 10 minutes after you eat lunch?
When we want to start a new habit or have a new behavior, it helps us to connect it with something that we’re already doing. You can learn that from the book by James Clear called Atomic Habits. It’s an excellent book. It talks about developing positive habits in your life and removing negative habits, which we all struggle with. I want to go back and read that book some more and really work on implementing some of the things in my life to review some of our points here.
We talked about finding and clarifying your why we talked about learning from past experience of what didn’t work, researching the how and now we’re going to talk about number four, which is plan for challenging days.
Look, I don’t care what you’re trying to do or what new thing you’re trying to implement or what you’re trying to finish. You’re going to have hard days. Make a decision upfront what those days are going to look like. How am I going to handle the sugar craving? How am I going to handle that day that I’m exhausted and don’t want to work out? How am I going to handle the week that I get sick and I’m not able to follow through with the diet exercise plan? This may look like a lot of different things for you. It may look like you writing down your why and saying, “Hey, here’s why I’m making these changes for me.” It’s going back to when I want to eat something that maybe wouldn’t be the healthiest for me. Going back to that picture of this is where you are and you have a picture of where you are and you have a picture of where you want to be. Let’s move towards the picture of where you want to be. Instead of continuing to stay in the picture of where you are, it may be certain affirmations that you write down to yourself, like God is bigger than any challenge that I’m going to face today. That’s something that I tell myself when I feel stuck, when I feel like I can’t do something.
All the strength and the power that you need, you can access through the Holy Spirit, through prayer, and that spiritual connection to God is super important. If this is something that God has called you to do, then he is going to equip you and enable you to be able to do it. I have to speak that to myself on a regular basis. Keep that in mind. Plan for your challenging days. Maybe that means, if you’re trying to change your diet, that you have some quick, healthy foods in the refrigerator. Maybe it means that you have a list written down of “If you don’t have this food, I can eat this food.” If you eat out a lot, what are some healthy options as you eating out.
When you’re talking about motivation for mental health changes, knowing that you can make positive changes and it’s not always going to look like a straight diagonal line. That’s true of any positive change. I tell my clients all the time, you’re going to have your ups and downs as you’re making progress, so don’t be discouraged when you take a step back. Just know you have made this much progress so far because you take one step back. That doesn’t negate the progress that you have already made. I’ve got to keep going and go to the next thing. Go to the next piece and pick up. Today you totally blew it. That doesn’t mean that has to become a habit. That doesn’t mean you have to go back to square one. You can say, “You know what? I can start again later today. I can start again tomorrow. “
Number five, seek accountability.
I have told everybody, including you, the podcast audience of health changes that I’m trying to make in my life. Actually, I broke it to the podcast audience on our email list where I wrote an email about some changes that I was making and asking some of you about changes and goals that you’re doing in the new year. I’ve told my in laws, I’ve told my friends, I’ve told loved ones because I want that accountability. I want people to ask me, how is this going in your life? I know you’re trying to eat more protein and less carbs. What does that look like? How are you doing with that? I have another friend who’s also making some health changes, and she’s telling me about movement that she’s doing. I can share the movement that I’m getting in. I wanted people to know because it really helps me stay on track. If I don’t let other people in my life know the changes that I’m trying to make, then I can just kind of get away a little bit more with not making them and not feeling bad about not making those changes.
Accountability can be really huge and really beneficial to us. That may look like different things for different people. You may want to get in a support group and it could be something mental health related, could be something physical health related where you’re saying, “Hey, I want to make these positive changes in my life.” It could be a Bible study or a church group where you say, Hey, I want to become the person who God has called me to be. I know that I want to be reading my Bible. Our church is going through one of those read the Bible in a year plans. That’s another thing we’re doing in 2024 and it’s really great. Having that accountability where you can say like, “Hey, how was your reading going? What did you pick up on today? or how did you connect with God as you read his word today?” That accountability is very important for us being able to reach our goals. We can’t get there alone. A lot of times we try and we think we can, but you weren’t made to do this alone, regardless of what it is that you’re dealing with.
Number six, pick a good start date. There just are some times that are not a good time to make the change that you’re trying to make. I had situations where I was going through back pain and that’s part of the reason I got off track. I’m not going to say that that’s 100 percent the reason, but there definitely have been some physical limitations and some rehab that I’ve had to do at various points over the last few years. For me to say, I’m going to go on a complete physical journey transformation and walk five miles that just wasn’t realistic and it wouldn’t have been helpful for me because I had to start where I was at. Starting small is good and we’ll talk about that in the last step, but when they talk with people about quitting smoking, they always say, have a quit date, put it on your calendar, make that determination, have it as a visual so that you know after today you are not doing cigarettes anymore. That does something to our brain, really trains us. You had all this preparation beforehand.,Finding your why, figuring the how, planning for the challenging days, getting your accountability on board so that when you pick your start date, it’s a good time to start. You probably don’t want to start your diet plan on December the 24th.
If you know you’re going to be having Christmas celebrations with family over the next couple of days and eat way too many Christmas cookies like I did. That was what happened to me. Picking a good start date is important because a lot of times we do these things that We’re not trying to set ourselves up for failure, but then when you take a step back and look at it, it’s like we really planned in a way that didn’t set ourselves up for success, and then we turned around and beat ourself up for it.
We’re like, “okay, I have all these major life changes happening in my life, but I need to make this change.” It’s a huge change. We don’t make the huge change that’s unrealistic, and we say, “Well, see. I told you I couldn’t do it” It gets into all this negative thinking and all this beating ourselves up.
Going back to planning for the challenging days, we’ve got to learn to be kind to ourselves. We’ve got to learn that we’re not always going to hit the mark. That’s what grace is for. That’s what the love of God is here for us and knowing that it’s okay. That doesn’t mean we’re a horrible person. It doesn’t mean that we’re not ever going to reach our goals because we can get into all of this negative thought process. “Oh, see, I told you I couldn’t do this and I couldn’t do that” Wust end up getting stuck and wallowing in a place of shame.
The last step that I want to talk you through is execute. When you are executing your plan and your goals and the step by step process, sometimes you need to ease your way into it. What I’ll find in talking with clients, they’ll say, “I’m going to create a goal where I am walking 30 minutes every day this week.” I’m kind of like, “but you’re not walking at all. That might be a good goal.” Say if you were walking four or five times a week and you want to do every day, or if you said, “Hey, I’m walking every day for 15 and I’d like to walk for 20 every day.” It sounds a little bit more doable, but to go from zero to 100 percent is probably not going to happen and that’s that whole setting yourself up for failure. Maybe if you’re trying to make positive health changes, you just focus on one thing. I’m going to drink X amount of ounces of water a day, whatever is deemed healthily, because that depends on your body weight. I’m going to drink this much water per day, or I’m going to trade one soda for sparkling water, or instead of drinking this soda, I’m going to drink flavored water instead, and making that one small change. When you can stick with that one small change, going to the next small change. Maybe you decide, you know what, instead of pulling through the drive thru and getting a breakfast sandwich, I am going to get the oatmeal or I am going to get a smoothie or make something at home. Whatever you deem is reasonable that you’re going to be able to do, and then you can always change that. Maybe you decide that the oatmeal is healthier than this, but it still has too much sugar or whatever the case is, you can always shift and adjust and change your plan as needed. That’s an important thing to remember.
Let’s talk through small changes that you can make to improve your mental health. Can you reduce alcohol consumption? Can you go to bed at the same time every night? Can you develop a relaxing bedtime routine or a joyful morning routine? What does that look like to wake up and embrace the joy of the Lord? Some of us have a really hard time with that in the morning, but you can do it. Put on a worship song or get up and stretch, move your body, go outside and take a deep breath. Maybe not if it’s super cold, whatever it is that is going to help you like engage in that process. Maybe you decide that your mental health goal is going to be journaling. I’m going to take five minutes before I go to sleep and just write down some of the things that I’ve been thinking about. Maybe going to reach out and ask someone for help this week. That’s huge. That’s something that we have a hard time doing. I’m going to work on saying no more. When what’s being asked of me doesn’t suit me or isn’t healthy, I’m going to set a boundary with a co worker or friend. We have entire episodes on setting boundaries on the podcast that you can go back and look at. Whatever you feel like God has laid on your heart to do in 2024. I just want you to know that you can find the motivation and that you can finish strong. Pray about it. Clarify your why. Sit with the Lord. What failed in the past? What didn’t go well? How can I learn from that? How can I grow? How can I set myself up for positive change? How can I plan for challenging days? Who’s going to be my support, my accountability on this journey? What’s a good day to start and Lord help me execute. I think all of this integrates with our spiritual life so well because self control is a spiritual discipline and we receive that through the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit does his part at work within us and we do our part in doing what we have been called and asked to do in obedience.
Thank you guys for listening to this episode. I hope that you are going to finish strong as we get to the end of January today. As you continue to make changes throughout the year, if there’s anything that we can do to help and support you in that process, please let us know.
I’m always up for episode suggestions. We do have a personal story interview coming your way in a couple weeks of a lady who went from being in a mental health hospital to really thriving and is now a health educator and advocate. She’s going to share some of her story and I know that’s going to be inspiring to you as well.
Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, Licensed Professional Counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling.
Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
On today’s episode, Carrie sits down with Diana Rice, a licensed mental health counselor and certified integrative mental health professional. They delve into the impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and their relevance to anxiety and OCD.
Episode Highlights:
The impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) on mental health, with a focus on anxiety and OCD.
Diana Rice’s personal journey and her path to becoming a counselor.
The significance of the ACE study and its ten-question questionnaire for assessing childhood experiences.
The distinction between externalizers and internalizers in response to trauma.
Strategies for healing, including neuroplasticity and holistic well-being approaches.
Episode Summary:
Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 107. I’m Carrie, and today we’re diving into the impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) on anxiety and OCD with Diana Rice, a licensed mental health counselor from Through the Valley Therapy in South Florida. Diana, whose journey from a peer counselor in middle school to a seasoned mental health professional is inspiring, shares her deep insights into how early childhood experiences shape mental health.
In this episode, Diana explores how her upbringing as an immigrant child and her ACE score of six have profoundly influenced her therapeutic approach. She reflects on how these formative experiences led her to seek an integrative approach to therapy, highlighting the importance of understanding one’s past for effective mental health treatment.
We also discuss the ACE study’s significant findings, revealing the correlation between high ACE scores and increased risks for chronic health issues and mental health disorders. Diana explains how ACEs can contribute to conditions like high blood pressure, diabetes, and addiction, emphasizing the need to address these early experiences for effective therapy. Diana’s insights into addressing underlying trauma, rather than just symptoms, provide crucial perspectives for managing anxiety and OCD effectively.
Related links and Resources
Transcript
Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 107. For anyone new to our show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. I have with me today on the show a licensed mental health counselor and certified integrative mental health professional, Diana Rice of Through the Valley Therapy in Florida.
Carrie: Are you in the Miami area? Is that right?
Diana: I’m in South Florida.
Carrie: Okay. Today, we’re going to talk about adverse childhood experiences. People may have heard them referred to as ACEs. I’m talking about how these things impact us, which is really relevant for conversations surrounding anxiety and OCD.
Diana: I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your personal story in terms of just what led you to be the counselor that you are today.
Diana: Wow, I could say I could blame my middle school, my Broward County middle school that I went to. Honestly, my father’s family kind of kept me here. My mom is an immigrant from another country and my dad is as well.
I’m originally from New York, and when I came to visit one summer, they kept me, so I was in middle school and then I started middle school here. My mom ended up coming back, but at that time, she didn’t know her rights. It turned out for God’s glory, of course, because here I am now. But in seventh grade, I became a peer counselor.
I think that’s where my love of helping others plus, my mother’s only child and I have older siblings, but they’re from my dad’s side. I just wanted to help people. I could see now back in the past like I had to disentangle what was I trying to heal because of my background and what is actually my calling, how my personality is and what the Lord has given me to do in this place we call earth.
That’s where it all started, and in high school, I was a peer counselor. I remember they interviewed me in the yearbook and asked,, “What do you want to do when you grow up?” I’m like, “I want to be a psychologist.” That time, I was already doing the wrong thing. I wasn’t a Christian then. I was raised Catholic with Santeria, which is a religion. You guys could look it up, but be aware. It wasn’t as bad as you’ll see if you do look it up, but my grandma was a medium.
Carrie: Oh, okay. Wow, so that’s like two different worlds intermingled there.
Diana: Yes, so I had that kind of spiritual trauma along with other things. I know that we’re talking about ACE, adverse childhood experiences, and my score is a six. I did not know these things when they were happening because most of us when we’re growing up, we think that’s just the norm of what’s happening. Everybody must be going through that plus our brains aren’t fully developed at that time.
Carrie: Right. I think a lot of people are just like, “Well, that’s just kind of how it was. That was the water we swim in. That’s what maybe all the neighbors were going through as well. Until we get outside of our box or bubble of how we grew up, we don’t really know that things can be different or are different for other children and teenagers out there.
Tell us a little bit about how you got interested in the ACE study because I think when you and I had chatted before, you said you felt like it was kind of a life’s work for you, just really understanding this and applying it in your counseling.
Diana: When I was in college, we have to do our practicum and our internship. I spent a year in a Broward County school that was cognitive-behavioral therapy-based. It is sort of an alternative school, but the students that were there, they were from other schools sort of got kicked out or they needed help and they had to be seeing a psychiatrist. At this school, that was my internship and I was basically for that year, the only intern, but there were like eight other therapists, a psychiatrist, and a couple of psychiatrists.
It was probably one of the best educational times of my life for that year. I learned a lot of what not to do as a therapist, the red tape and the understanding of insurance, sorta there. So basically I was just learning from a lot of different modalities of how people practice back then and that was in 2004. It was almost 20 years ago before social media and it was at school. I was mostly teens. I mean, we had middle school and I think there might have been an area of elementary, but most of my clientele that came to me were teenagers. I realized I was there and I’m not the psychiatrist and I was getting frustrated because it was basically they came to me and a fat file of the student or whatever it is that follows them along the whole system. I’m like, “I don’t want to read it. My supervisor would be like,”Yyou have to read it. That’s your job. I’m your supervisor.” I’m like, “I know, but then you’re giving me this.” I’m going in already kind of with a judgment on the student. I’m from Broward County, so I was a product of the Broward County school system.
I have that little bit of that sass. Basically though, I was seeing like, why aren’t we listening to these students? I’m seeing these things that are happening and they’re angry and they’re frustrated or they’re not being heard. I ended up taking what Carl Rogers talks about unconditional positive regard and I was new. I was just new to the game. I just basically started listening and questioning and then I would go home and go to my library and research or go back to my college and ask my professors. I was just always asking why, why, why would we do this back then? I think the DSM might’ve been three or TR or something like that. I’m like, “Why do you keep telling me this book my Bible?” That’s what we’re taught in a public secular college when it comes to licensing and everything. And then I would open it up and see all the names and I’m like, no offense. Why are all these white people the ones that are telling me what to do?
Why are we not taking into consideration the cultures? Or the understanding of other people’s backgrounds. I was questioning and questioning. Some of my professors loved, that I was questioning things.
Carrie: And some hated it.
Diana: Oh, some of them were, but I was used to that already because that’s how I’ve learned most of my life, even in high school and stuff. Just like questioning why. That’s just how I still do that to this day.
Carrie: Right, and very valid questions. I think psychology was based off of a bunch of white men at the end of the day. It started, that’s not where it is now, you know, things have progressed, but there’s still a lot of that bias in a lot of the research materials and things of that nature in DSM.
Back in the 90s, just for anybody who’s not familiar with the ACE study, adverse childhood experiences. Kaiser Permanente, which is an insurance company that’s more on the west coast of the U. S., if you’re not familiar with them, they decided they’re going to do this study and try to figure out, we have these people that have chronic health issues that are obviously taking a lot of money to take care of.
People with addiction issues, people with high blood pressure, diabetes, all of those chronic conditions that we think about. They wanted to figure out what makes some connection points between their physical health and their mental health and what they found through questions. They had, I think, 10 questions on there.
Diana: I have the questions in front of me and it’s basically simple and people don’t understand what it does. It makes you understand things that you never do. That’s the way I like it in a holistic practice because we really touch on some stuff and it does get utilized in my practice anyway. In a way that’s like, whoa, but they don’t ever see the correlation.
The 10 questions are like this, “Did a parent or another adult in the household often swear at you, insult you, put you down, humiliate you, act in a way that made you afraid that you might be physically hurt? And then it keeps going. “Did a parent, or other adult in the household often push, grab, slap, or throw something at you ever hit you so hard that you have marks or were injured?”
I don’t know, I know these could be trigger questions right now for your audience. I want to be careful because now I’ve realized like, okay, because I utilize it so much, every client has to fill this out when they come to me. I’m realizing now that I got to be careful because your listener might never have heard these and they’re going to be like, because if we end up saying all 10 questions and they say, “Oh, yeah.I have seven” then what do we do here as therapists?
Carrie: Yes, people can go look them up online and I’ll link them. Even something like the divorce of your parents is on there and that’s pretty common in today’s day and age.
Diana: Or drinking or alcohol. Anybody had a mental illness or was depressed in your household. “Did anybody go to prison?” It is questions that are basic, but when you put all 10 of them together and you start seeing the scoring, anything higher than a four, I think is cause for a little bit of concern. The higher the score, of course, the more you going to have to be aware. It’s an awareness. It’s not like you’re doomed.
Carrie: Right. It’s just a look at how that connection is, and they found that people who had scores of four or more ACEs were more likely to have these chronic health issues, the high blood pressure, the diabetes, addiction issues, and it was very significant. It was kind of like the graph was small at 1, 2, 3, and then jumped when it got to 4 and above. It’s a very eye-opening, and it’s not a new study, but I think a lot of doctors don’t take these types of things into account. A lot of individuals who have chronic health issues or chronic anxiety or chronic insomnia don’t take these types of issues into consideration because, like we were talking about before, It was just kind of how they grew up.
It was the water they swim in and they don’t always identify with the word trauma or abuse. I think that’s why some of those questions get very specific. Because if you say, did you experience physical abuse in your household? Someone might just think, well, that was discipline, but yet they ended up with marks, or they ended up getting hit in ways that are clearly not disciplinary.
Diana: What I see in my practice for the last 20 years is that It is a cultural thing at times. I also understand because I use a lot of Myers Briggs too. I try to come up with free assessments so we can have a holistic picture. Say you have this young person who is an introvert and is nervous by nature, like, and that’s okay. All of a sudden the father comes home drunk and is yelling. It doesn’t even have to put hands on, but, your nervous system just gets turned on. All these layers of emotional wounds, that’s how I explain it to the teen or the young adult or the adult that’s come to me is that we have emotional wounds.
We all experience these emotional wounds. The intergenerational trauma. A lot of people want to call it intergenerational sin, generational sin or whatever it is that’s happened. But if we don’t deal with them, then this is why symptoms happen.
Carrie: Absolutely. Those types of things that affect our nervous system and get us into that fight, flight, or freeze energy on the regular basis, that’s almost like teaching our brain for that fire alarm to constantly go off when it’s really only meant to go off in high danger, high-stress situations so that we have that energy to fight, flight, or freeze.
When you’re in a chronic situation like that, and like you said before, your brain is still developing. Now we’re affecting kind of how the brain is developing in these processes with children and teens. Similar to you, I started out working with children and teens, not in a school setting, but in a home setting, trying to prevent them from out-of-home placement.
When I first went into it, I thought, what’s going on with these kids? What is the deal here? Why are they acting up so much? Was it something about how they were raised? I didn’t know. Do they just have no structure in their home or no discipline? But then you start to peel back the layers and you start to look at, we had a, oh, I’m trying to think of what the assessment was.
It wasn’t an ACE assessment, but it was a trauma inventory, and it’s got a really long acronym, but we would go through that with every client and ask about, have you ever experienced this, homelessness, times where you didn’t have enough food, all kinds of different experiences. Has anyone ever hit you? And then you find out all kinds of things that have happened – bullying, abuse that they’ve experienced, and then you go, “Oh, these kids aren’t bad kids. They’re not behavior problems. They have been through an enormous amount, and their nervous system, like, does not know how to process or handle even day-to-day situations.”
Diana: On fire, that’s what I say. That’s inflammation and when we understand the science of the mind and the body all together, it’s places of yourself that are inflamed. If your gut is inflamed, you start feeling it in other places. The same with the brain. If your central nervous system is always protecting, I mean, think about back in the day, a long time ago, thousands of years ago, when you have a sabertooth tiger running after the caveman, that’s the alert.
Your adrenal glands are going squirt, squirt, squirt with chemical and it’s fight or flight or freeze or fawn. If you’re on, but the thing is with the chronic, like you’re saying, if it’s happening every day, your system just learns to stay on. And then people that have a safe environment or healthy foods, or they don’t have to worry about resources or gang life or abusive home settings.
They don’t have that understanding and then they’re judging it now. For us therapists, if you’re a therapist listening to this, this is something that can revolutionize your whole practice, understanding the holistic approach to mental health and especially with the ACE, understanding the neuroplasticity and the science behind that, I mean, the brain and the gut connection, things like that.
“If I did not learn these things, I think I would have been, I was a wreck. I mean, I was smoking pot. I was drinking alcohol all through my teen.” And that’s why they’re like, they’re just teenagers, but if we get to understand the why, why are they taking it so personal? Why are they popping off? I think we’re going to talk about internalizers and externalizers.
Carrie: Yes, let’s go into that. Your externalizers are the poppin’ off kids.
Diana: Yes, the Poppin off kids. The ones that are people see and they think that they have a chip on their shoulder, like, “What you lookin at”, or whatever it is. If you take those personal, if you’re working with adolescents, or you have one, and you’re taking it personal constantly and saying, well, they’re just teenagers, they suck, or whatever it is or instead of taking a step back and going, “Why are they poppin off? Why are they punching the teacher in the face?” And those are the students that I worked with. I worked from there, and then I worked in a non profit organization that went into the houses, too, into the inner city homes, so I was seeing things we are the richest country and we’re allowing people to live this way.
I don’t get it. I get it, but I don’t. It’s such a system. I’m not even gonna go there. But you have those that externalize, which they’re fighting. They’re angry. They’re the little kid who might be diagnosed with ADHD. They might be diagnosed with a thousand different things and on five different medications. We don’t realize at home they’re eating Captain Crunch and Mountain Dew for breakfast. We don’t see this whole picture because we have to, I get why in the system, if you’re responsible for thousands of kids in one school, you can’t do what we’re trying to do, individualizing therapy for each, so you have to come up with answers quickly so you could keep the fire down.
Carrie: Yes. Absolutely.
Diana: Those are the externalizers, the ones that you see that are angry or cussing or upset or wanting to fight and you feel it. The internalizers, they’re usually the cutters. They’ll stay in their room all day long playing video games, or they’re doing other things that they shouldn’t be doing. They’re the shy ones, they’re the suicidal ones.
Carrie: Right, they just keep everything inside and bury it as much as possible and even occasionally they may blow up at some point, but it’s usually against themselves, like you were saying.
Diana: Some of them will do both, depending on what’s going on in their own system, like in their own body, their vessel. It depends on how much a human being can take. Each one of us only has a threshold. We only have a certain amount of bandwidth.
Carrie: I’m sure it drove you crazy like it drove me crazy that the trauma wasn’t taken into consideration, so then we were just looking at symptoms. We were trying to match people up with the DSM and trying to match people with medication.
Therefore, there was a turning of students who got diagnosed with ADHD and then bipolar disorder. That’s what we saw all the time.
Diana: ADHD and bipolar borderline. I’m trying to think there was one more. I mean, when I had anxiety and depression that year. I came and I think I am quite fine, I’m in private practice now. After that, when I was working at the nonprofit, I took a little break because of a certain situation that happened personally in my family, and then I went into a different career. After the Parkland shooting, and the Stoneman Douglas shooting in 2018, I had a couple of parents ask, “Hey, are you still a therapist?”, and I’m like, “no, I’m not.” And then little by little, the Lord kept saying, “You’re going back. I’m like, “no”, but I see now since 2018, everything. I’m like, Okay, I’m just going to be obedient. This is of service for you. It’s a calling. I’m grateful that I do get paid for it and I get to help others learn about it. When I went back, I ended up in a school being the crisis intervention counselor serving about 200 students and I was the only licensed therapist there.
Carrie: Wow, that’s a lot of students to take care of. What hope is there? Because this is hope for anxiety and OCD, what hope is there for individuals who’ve had these types of experiences?
Diana: There’s so much hope. Listen, I am one that had these types of experiences. Like I said before, I have an A score of 6. It’s reframing what has happened and understanding, but getting the help and doing the work. Because some people do the healing process, they get stuck in the victim. And they don’t know how to get out of it because it’s been their life for so long and they might be surrounded by other humans in their family or in their community.
That’s all they know as well, so it’s understanding there is hope and it starts with you understanding you being that curious observer of yourself watching YouTube videos on CPTSD. Reading books like Dr. Gabor Maté’s book, The Myth of Normal, or The Body Keeps the Score by Dr. Vessel Van de Kock, or CPTSD, From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker.
There’s so much information out there. Or listening to podcasts like this, saying, Hey, no, there’s hope and understanding the science of your brain. Neuroplasticity is a real thing. They’re finding it out there in more and more information on the brain and how rewiring your system you can do it. I have done it.
It took a lot of hard work to grieve my childhood to learn to forgive those that hurt me and it’s not only my home. It’s understanding. We’re all raised in a village.
Carrie: Yes.
Diana: We’re all in a village now. If you’re hearing my voice, you’re part of a system. You’re part of a village, but we were also raised by one.
Some people might hurt you which can cause anxiety and depression, which are symptoms of numerous things. Finding out that you are not anxiety and you are not depression. These are just things you’re wrestling with or struggling with. I like wrestling better because wrestling means that you could get up on top of it.
When I use the word suffer, I don’t like that too much because it’s like, “Oh, I’m suffering. Oh, what was me?” To me, I had to go through that part. I was grateful for EMDR. There are modalities that can help internal family systems, EMDR. I do cold plunges now. I do sauna work, infrared sauna, acupuncture, and things that have been around for thousands and thousands of years that are Westernized medicine. It doesn’t utilize because it’s either free or they can’t make money off of it.
Carrie: The cold plunge. How does that work?
Diana: I just started honestly last month and you go into like 40-degree water and I’m up in 90 seconds. I started off at 30 and I thought it, but it was the weirdest, craziest, most amazing feeling I ever had.
I do Wim Hof breathing. Wim Hof, you should look up his story. I started with the breathing techniques because these things are not taught in churches. They’re not taught our profession either much, and a lot of people see them as woo woo or new age, but I’m like, “No, the Lord made breath.”
Carrie: There are certain breaths that I know, like from yoga. There are certain ways to breathe where you can warm up your body or cool off your body. So are you trying to warm up your body like in those situations or no, you’re trying to take your temperature down?
Diana: Are you talking about breath work or with a cold plunge?
Carrie: With the cold plunge, are you trying to breathe a certain way while you’re in there?
Diana: It is actually trying to wake up my mitochondria to healing. It’s also understanding your mindset. We have a fixed mindset, many of us, especially if we wrestle with anxiety because I do, I wrestle with anxiety, honestly, like I can’t drink coffee. I have to do the work and I have to be okay. Kind of like an alcoholic shouldn’t be drinking alcohol.
Carrie: Right, yes.
Diana: Someone like me that has anxiety and wrestles with it. I have to do the work and understand like, “No, I can’t touch that substance because that substance is going to make my anxiety worse or depression or whatever symptoms being exasperated by whatever’s around you. With the cold plunge, I am trying to, first of all, wake up myself and at the same time realize that I have the power in my mind to do this. Tthat is the rewiring of the brain that is creating new neurons to be able to connect.” Whatever fires together wires together.” That’s what Jim Quick says.
Carrie: Right. Yes.
Diana: I love to listen to and it’s true. If I would have stayed like, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to be a pothead of all my life, or I’m going to be depressed, or I’m never going to be able to be around my family because they trigger me too much. I had to rewire my brain. I have also been diagnosed with SERS, Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, but I also know it’s because of how high my ACE score.”
It’s an autoimmune, so I have to do the things to keep that fire down because it’s inflammation. And I do the work and it was trying to shrink the inner critic because you grow up in that kind of environment with a high A score. It’s constantly like, I’m not worth it. It’s attachment issues,
Carrie: Putting yourself down a lot from things that you’ve heard from other people and just kind of repeating those things to yourself.
Diana: Because it’s been chronically done constantly, you start believing and that is something I had to realize with my walk with the Lord. To me, guilt and shame, because that’s what most of us who have anxiety, a lot of these diagnoses come and they’re really in guilt and shame. Guilt and shame is from the world. Conviction comes from the Lord.
Carrie: Right. That’s good.
Diana: It’s different. If you’re going against God’s word, then of course you’re going to get convicted.
Carrie: That’s a good thing.
Diana: Yes. If you’re feeling guilt and shame constantly and you’re blaming God and you’re not understanding, like, where is that voice coming from?
Who said those things? And you start recognizing those voices, the inner critic, and then you just sit with it because a lot of people that have anxiety, that I’ve come to find out in this 20 years I’ve been doing this, is they’re storing these emotions in their bodies, so they’re either so depressed and sad about it, and they’re just giving up with no hope, or it is stored so deeply that it’s like when a deer gets hit by a truck, or any animal.
Carrie: They’re sort of shaking.
Diana: That’s our nervous system, which causes the anxiety, or the OCD. I still struggle with that too, and I have to realize, I got bad news. This is an example that happened lately. My sister was put in hospice. My husband, because he has done his work with me and understands he or she is starting to clean everything and make everything perfect. She took everything out of the gap because that’s what I did. Then he took me and was just like, “Honey, you’re going to have to go see your therapist. Please calm down. I could tell because it happens.”
Carrie: Fall back into those patterns. I really like what you’re saying on a spiritual sense of that there’s a verse that talks about work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it’s God that works within you and you’re talking about really partnering up with God and the Holy Spirit to do the work, not just kind of sitting back and being a passive observer and say, God, just come over me and just fix all the brain cells, just make them all like wired together the way they’re supposed to and heal up this yuck stuff that happened to me.
You’re like, “No, I’ve actually sought the Lord, but I’ve also gone to counseling and I’ve also done these other healing modalities and read a lot or watched a lot of videos and really absorb the Information because knowledge is really helpful in these types of things and it does help reduce some of the shame so that you’re not thinking why in the world am I responding in this way?
Why in the world am I acting like this? When you understand, you can peel that back and say, “Oh, okay, now I get it. Now that I get it, I can start to take a step towards change.” If a lot of times we don’t understand what’s going on in the first place, it’s really hard to make changes into it. If we don’t sit with it and go, “Oh yeah, this is what happened to me. This is how it affected me. This is how my relationships have gotten so hijacked for the last 10 years.”
Diana: We have to remember as believers that Satan’s only reason is to steal, kill, and destroy every relationship that you have, including and especially the one with yourself.
When you notice that and you realize, like, this is why I really am a mind, body, spirit connecting therapist here. When people come to me, they understand my position in Christ. I do not force. I’m not a biblical counselo. People argue with me all the time and we all have our journey. To me, what has worked thus far with people. I have quite a few people with a lot of spiritual abuse from church where I have to disentangle because some people don’t understand they grew up and was forced into some kind of say religion or whatever it is. And then they come to me with this hatred towards God and they want to deconstruct. I’m there going, okay, I think you want to disentangle and understand your situation that happened in ACEs is not only in inner cities, I mean, there’s higher scores there because they have fewer resources. It’s just how our system in this society has been for so long. And this is. In the last three or four years, that’s the uprising that we’re feeling and people misunderstanding.
That’s why I encourage those to educate themselves, but it starts within ourselves. Psalm 139 verses 23 and 24, search me, Oh God, and know my anxious thoughts starts with us being responsible for us. Despite anything that has happened to us. That’s the power we have.
Carrie: Towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask every guest to share a story of hope, like a time where you received hope from God or another person.
Diana: Wow. I could actually talk about this morning. I had a client, mostly my clients gave me hope due to them doing the work and seeing the progress. I’m very grateful for that. Just like this morning, I had a client that came to me two months ago and she was in a very, very bad place. When I say very bad place, it was just, I don’t know if I could. It takes energy. I think the listener needs to understand we’re humans with our struggles and we care about our clients, or we would not be in this. And we care about them, not just for the hour or 90 minutes we have them.
Carrie: True. Very true.
Diana: We’re trying to find other ways to help them. I’m in a lot of prayer. If you come to see me, I’m praying for you before you come in. We pray together and then when they leave, I pray, “All right, Lord, what do I have to do for the next session? Or what do I do next?” This person came in and I’m just like, I don’t know if I can help them. I can’t after crying out to God for a while.
I’m like by this time, if I can’t help and she came in today and I was just blown away with how much progress it was amazing. It’s like every time I want to quit, I honestly want to retire or go back to the other career I was at because this is heavy work for us.
Carrie: It’s not easy.
Diana: It’s not easy. It is a calling because I’m sure that if you are a therapist listening, you did not get in this for the money. If you got in it for the money, then your heart is not in the right place to be a therapist. If you’re coming in thinking you’re going to make a lot of money, then you’re not seeing your client as the human that we should be seeing them as.
To me, I’m talking to my husband, “Shiver. I’m older now. I’ve done some time already.” The second I think that, a client comes in and boom, something out. I’m like, “All right, Lord. Okay. I hear you. All right.” He reminds me, it’s not about me. It’s not even about the client. All of that price and utilizing our gifts and talents, which each one of us have, and it’s just getting in tune with that. The only way to get in tune with who you are to heal is to sit alone and be still with the Lord.
Carrie: I love your office too. For those that are just listening, she has lots of plants all over her office and natural lighting is a very warm and inviting therapy space. I really like that. I’m still working on my office, I moved into it a few months ago, and it’s just not quite where I want it to be. There are still some tweaks that need to happen, but I’m going to get it settled, and it’s going to be great when it gets done.
Diana: You have to send me a picture of it.
Carrie: Okay, we’ll do. Thanks for being on the show today and sharing your wisdom with us.
Diana: Carrie, thank you for having me.
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Carrie: I loved interviewing Diana because it’s always great to find another therapist with a similar heartbeat about treating trauma and letting people know that is possible for them to have a better life moving forward, even if their background has been kind of rough.
As some of you know, I do EMDR intensives with clients who are looking to process trauma in a short, condensed amount of time, instead of having to spread that over weeks and weeks and open up issues and close them up. If you want more information on that, feel free to check out my counseling website at bythewellcounseling.com. I am also working on longer intensive packages specifically for clients who are dealing with the intersection of trauma, childhood wounding, and OCD. If any of that is of interest to you, definitely contact me and I would love to share more about it with you.
Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By The Well Counseling.
Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
In this special episode, Carrie and her husband, Steve, reflect on their three-year marriage journey and the joy of overcoming difficulties. They share insights on the importance of open communication and their experiences as parents to their daughter Faith. They also offer practical tips for maintaining a solid relationship while looking ahead with optimism and gratitude for each day.
Episode Highlights:
The significance of finding joy and hope in difficult situations as inspired by Psalm 30:5.
The importance of open communication in a marriage, even when addressing challenging topics.
How to navigate and adapt to life’s unexpected changes and challenges, such as health issues.
The value of adjusting and accepting new norms in life and relationships.
Their experiences in parenthood, including insights into their daughter, Faith, and the joys and challenges of raising her.
Episode Summary:
Welcome to Episode 105 of Christian Faith and OCD!
In this episode, we dive into our year of challenges and growth, centered around the theme “Joy in the Morning,” inspired by Psalm 30:5. We explore how we’ve navigated trials and found hope and joy through our faith and resilience.
Highlights of This Episode:
Reflecting on Our Journey: Steve and I look back at our dating days, the trials of our first year of marriage, and our growth as a couple. We share how our experiences, including Steve’s diagnosis of spinocerebellar ataxia (SCA), have shaped our relationship.
Adapting to New Normals: Steve discusses how he’s adjusted to life with SCA, including his memorable Crazy Hair Day at Vacation Bible School (VBS). Despite the challenges, Steve’s involvement in ministry and our lives has been a source of inspiration and joy.
Mission Trip to Guatemala: Steve shares his incredible experience on a mission trip to Guatemala. Despite the obstacles, he found purpose and connection, highlighting how disabilities don’t have to limit our ability to serve others.
Communication and Growth: We delve into how effective communication has been crucial in our relationship, especially when addressing and resolving issues that arise. Steve and I discuss the importance of understanding and patience in our journey together.
Parenting and Faith: With our daughter, Faith, turning 18 months old, we reflect on the joys and challenges of parenting. We explore how our faith has guided us through these experiences and strengthened our bond.
Listen to this episode to gain insight into how faith, communication, and resilience have guided us through our journey. We hope our story inspires you to find joy in your own challenges and embrace the morning light after the night’s trials.
Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 105. I am joined here once again by my lovely husband, Steve.
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Carrie: Hi Steve.
Steve: Hey. How are you?
Carrie: Welcome. We’ve been doing this as a tradition almost every year. It started before we got married. We did an episode about our dating experiences, and then, in the first year of marriage, I was pregnant. I remember crying a lot in that episode because we didn’t know what was happening to your eyes other than we knew you had lost vision. It was super scary. Thinking about all the uncertainties there, then you had just been diagnosed with neurological conditions, spinocerebellar ataxia.
We sat down and thought about what we wanted to discuss for our third year of marriage now that we’ve been married for almost three years. This scripture had come to mind: Psalm 30 verse 5 says, Weeping may stay overnight, but there is joy in the morning. And so, we thought about titling this episode Joy in the Morning. Do you want to tell our audience a little bit about why we chose that?
Steve: Yes, because I think going through trials, as everyone does, our trials that we have dealt with, there have been tears, and there have been difficult moments, but the joy that comes out of that, being able to look back and say, oh my goodness, I’ve made it through this. And it gives others hope that they may be going through the same thing. That’s the beauty of going through something difficult: when you make it to the other side, to a better place at least, you can share that with someone and help them. We have been through a lot; it has been difficult, but we’ve done it with a smile. As best as we can anyway, so, that’s kind of, it’s a good verse.
Carrie: Yes. Some of the highlights of this year of you adjusting to the SCA diagnosis and realizing that you can still be involved in ministry with which you’d like to be involved. And I wish we had a picture of your crazy hair day at VBS.
Steve: That was so much fun. They’d asked me to, at church, well, they didn’t ask me, but I signed up for VBS, which was a challenge at the time because I’d yet to serve in any way by myself amidst all the chaos of all those wonderful kids who were having fun. And here I am, with my walker, trying to hurry through and make it work but having a blast. They had different themes for each day, whether it be sports, and one of those days was crazy hair day, so I said, why not? So, each night, I participated, but that was probably the best one for me because, as a bald man, I could wear a wig with blue hair. I think it was. Was it blue?
Carrie: No, it was all white.
Steve: All right, there we go.
Carrie: But you had a blue headband.
Steve: That’s what it was. I knew something must have been blue, but A, there’s my memory for you, and B, there’s my eyesight for you. But yes, it was all white hair. I remember that now. And it was crazy. It was out there. And I got so many comments on that. And it was fun. It was a lot of fun.
Carrie: Right. Yes, and then this summer, you took a mission trip to Guatemala, which was the first time that you had been really since COVID and us getting married, having a baby, all these different things happened.
Steve: That was one of those experiences I did not know if I would get to continue with. But the team I went with was so gracious and so giving, so compassionate that they knew where my heart was. They knew they wanted me to go on that team with them and invited me, which was humbling. I never had to ask for help, whether I thought I needed it or not, and more times than not, I did need help.
They were right there, by my side, to grab a bag and help me up and down the stairs, which is funny because I took a walker with me. A smaller walker that would be easier to pack and carry and all that stuff takes up less space. I never got to use that thing, except in the airport once, because flat ground didn’t exist where we were.
There was no way of using that: there were so many stairs and different things. Anyway, the team was so good though to help me. I made sure I got from point A to point B and got to teach with people, and the people in Guatemala were so gracious with their time and compassionate, too, so it was a blessing.
Carrie: Great. And I think you got some positive feedback from people there that your story was just inspirational and that you had sacrificed to go to another country because you could have easily said, I’ve done mission trips for years; my time is over, and I have this disability. It’s time for me to kick back and rest.
Steve: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I’ll never forget this. Pastor Mark, who led the group, commented when we discussed whether I should go or not that we have people with club feet and different things that come to see us. Why not have someone else come to see them with a problem, whatever, a disability? I hadn’t thought about it that way. I just thought, how will I be able to do this? That’s all I was focused on. That changed the way that I thought about it. When I got there, the people were just so, I don’t know, I think it was a different way of looking at things for them too. Someone who has a disability came to speak with them. It was a cool thing in the end. It was very humbling, though.
Carrie: This year has been about adjusting and accepting our new normal. I guess you could call it our new life situation, and it comes with many changes and challenges in relationships and daily life. What’s been your experience of that?
Steve: I had to adjust and change to, you can sit on a couch or sit in the bed and cry and give in, or you can tweak how you do things. You can change or adjust to the new normal. And that’s what I’ve done, and I still do what I like. I don’t get to go outside as often, and I don’t get to go hiking. However, there are ways that I can do things.
I’m very happy with the life that I’m living, getting to do those things. I still get to meet with my friends occasionally and can’t just get in the car and drive there. But I still get to go, so there are no complaints. It’s still a blessing to play with our child and do all the fun things that I think are important.
Carrie: Faith just turned 18 months old, and she’s a little firecracker sometimes. But it’s been a journey, lots of learning, lots of adjustment, lots of growing as parents. And I think all these things that we’re talking about related to your marriage are, like, these are things that can either bring you closer together or create conflict and drive you farther apart.
Steve: Definitely. I think that for us, you always have to look forward. You have to pick your battles. I constantly tell myself that, not so much with you, but with Faith. Just with our daughter, trying to figure out, okay, she’s upset. Why is she upset? Or, she is, like most children, she gets her mind set on something.
I want to carry that blanket around. And drag it while we walk outside. I want to drag it through the dirt and never want to let it go. She reminds me of Linus with those blankets, but sometimes, you must decide how important it is for me to take this blanket away from her. Or to take whatever this toy or whatever it is.
Is it a deal breaker if she hangs on to it? Am I training her incorrectly if I let her hang on to that? Or, there’s a lot of decision-making there, but sometimes I’ve learned it’s okay to let her hang on for just a minute longer. And then, whenever she forgets about it, take it away and hide it; she’ll never think of it, and you won’t have to deal with the fuss. I don’t know if that always works, but picking your battles is very important.
Carrie: I think that’s true in a relational sense. And what you were talking about before, essentially honoring your limitations, is helpful for all our listeners, just listening to your body. There are some days that you can do more than others and some days you’re very fatigued and have to take it easy, and all you may get done is one load of laundry, and that’s it.
That’s a hard thing to accept. And just in terms of the mental health realm, it’s like, okay, some days I may be prepared to socially interact in a certain way with others, and some days I just may not be able to do that and respecting and honoring, like, my body and where I’m at today.
Steve: You have to decide sometimes if you’re going through fatigue, are you not feeling well, and you need rest, or are you just depressed and pushing away people? Because that’s a big difference. There are days, I’ll be honest, I don’t feel like doing the people thing, but it’s just me being whatever, me being me, or wanting to avoid people. And then there are other days I want to be around people, but my body is too tired, and I need to rest. Those are decisions that you have to think about, I think, for me, in the sense of, is it me, or is my body just really needing the rest? And so more times than not, for me, it’s my body really needs the rest, and so I have to force myself to lay down. I’m not a very good stop-and-rest person. I’m getting better at it, but not by choice, because I have to.
Carrie: Usually, other people tell you to sit down rather than you decide to sit down.
Steve: And anyone who knows me knows I was always a person that just wanted to go. Not that I couldn’t stop, but I didn’t like to sit down. I like to fix things. If something is on my mind, I want to finish it. I’m not a procrastinator, but when you have something like I have, you have to sit down. It’s not procrastinating; it’s resting until you can.
Carrie: I wanted to bring something up, and we can always cut this out if you don’t want us to talk about this, but without going into a lot of details, we had an, like, a communication issue come up in our marriage this year where we were both unhappy with like one aspect of our life. Do you know what I’m talking about? And neither one of us said anything because we’re both conflict-avoiders. And then finally, I got up the courage, and I said, “Hey, I don’t know about you, but I’m kind of unhappy in this one area, and then it was surprising for you to say, yeah, me too.” We were able to, like, do something about it. And so, I just wanted to share with our listeners that sometimes it’s hard to bring up those difficult topics in your marriage and talk about hard things that make you feel uncomfortable or your concern that’s going to make your spouse feel uncomfortable or that they might be mad at you.
Steve: That was one of those things when you said it. When you said something to me, I thought, yes, I agree and it wasn’t a bad thing.
Carrie: Right.
Steve: It wasn’t like she was acting this way, and I’m annoyed. No, it wasn’t that. It was literally a communication issue. It’s like mentally sitting at that four-way stop, and neither one of us is going. But we’re both annoyed with the other because we think it’s their turn or we think it’s something not right here, go when you said something “Oh, good, good, yes” and we dealt with it, and everything went well.
Sometimes I think I tend to be the go-with-the-flow type of personality, and something will bother me. I’m like, it’s not that big of a deal. Just suck it up. And really, you don’t want to gripe every time something comes up. And I’ve been that guy, too. I’ll be honest, but you also don’t want to just, no big deal, and keep pushing it away, and pushing it away, and then one day, you’re going to blow up. It’s not pretty, so sometimes it’s better to talk, and the struggle is, how do you bring it up? How do you say it? That always comes up because when I say things, I tend to be a very sarcastic person. I’ve really had to work on that, and nowhere near success in that department. I’ve worked on my sarcasm because I like to be funny and sarcastic, but it doesn’t work when communicating in a profound moment. It’s always taken as a negative, even though I may not mean it that way. For instance, if you say, Steve, I really need to go to the store or the library, and my response is, oh, goody, I can’t wait. I may think nothing of that. I meant simply as humor but when you say that enough, it bleeds out as this jerk doesn’t even want to go, and he doesn’t have the guts to say, I don’t really want to go carry. Is that okay? Instead, it’s, Oh, goody. The sarcasm doesn’t help me and I’ve had to work on that honest moment.
Carrie: Well, I think coming to a place of when you say this, I hear this. In your marriage relationship, men and women communicate things differently, and there are times when you’ll say something, and I’m like, I heard this, and then you’ll say, no, that’s not at all what I said.
Steve: Yes, and I am so caught off guard in those moments but again, it may be how I’m saying it, orr the pattern of how I’ve said it before. I think that really you could set a tone.
Carrie: Yes, it also taps into what I’m learning, like your past relational baggage because it’s like, okay, I hear him talking like my dad or my ex or something like that, and then I’m absorbing it through that lens. I don’t even realize that I’m doing it at that point until maybe later, and I have moments of self-reflection. I think that piece comes up in marriage a lot.
Steve: I think that’s why I’ve always heard the first two years of marriage are the most difficult. I think it could go beyond that. I don’t know, but I think the reason is that you’re getting through communication and likes, dislikes, and all of that stuff. You’re learning about your other half. I hope we can be one of those cute older couples that everybody wants to go to. Oh my gosh, you’re going to make me throw up, or they say they’re so cute. The old couple that’s kissing and holding hands. Anyway, so you hope when you’re older, you don’t even have to say anything. You know what the other person would think.
Carrie: In this process of growing together, I always tell clients that you’re either growing with someone or growing apart from them because you might be growing at different levels. I’ve seen that happen in friendships; I’ve noticed that it occurs to various people in romantic relationships. So always, like, keeping those lines of communication open, being self-aware and knowing what you’re contributing to the relationship, what might be detrimental to your relationship, and how to work on those things. And I think if we can look at it as we were talking about our communication, It’s not always bad, like sometimes we need some enrichment in certain areas. There’s not a problem yet, or there’s not a crisis. If you can catch it before something becomes a problem, or becomes a crisis, or before we feel like we don’t talk about that at all, if you can address it on the front end, it’s a lot easier than waiting for things to, like you said, build up and build up, and then somebody blows up, or somebody withdraws or walks away.
Steve: Absolutely. I think, too, that sometimes we get angry in our head, and that builds up, and to the point where, and you say this about faith all the time, she doesn’t even know why she’s angry. Something triggered you, and then your state, not you, but in general, and I’ve had this to me, and I stop, and I think, why in the world am I even angry? I don’t even know why. And it may simply be I don’t feel well, and I have to stop and say, okay, I cannot take that out on anyone. That is not fair. I just need to shush, not say anything, let it go. Try to remember those techniques of how to calm down or how to relax. And then there were other times when I did have something that bothered me, but I didn’t want to say anything. And I held it in, and then, kaboom, it’s not pretty, all over something really silly.
Carrie: I think timing is vital in terms of bringing up topics. In your marriage, it’s hard to know. You can’t necessarily bring something up when there’s all that heat of the emotion on both sides. You have to take a break, like pause. Okay, let’s talk about this. Let’s go to our separate spaces, reflect on it, pray about it, and then come back together and talk about what in the world just happened with that last interaction. I don’t even know, but we went from a happy couple to all of a sudden. We’re at each other’s throats or something.
Steve: That would be those moments when I have to say, okay, Steve, calm down. Why are you upset or okay? Maybe your reasoning for being upset is justifiable, but there are two of us in this marriage, so what can I do? What can I say to try to calm this down? There’s no hero, no winner, no individual here. How do we do this together? How do we work? That’s hard because we always want to win; we always want to be right. As humans, you always want to be in the right, and we never stop and think; it seems most of us don’t; maybe I’m wrong here. Perhaps I need to change the approach. Maybe I’m not wrong, but my path is wrong, or how I’m saying it. And that’s where it’s difficult because the focus is on you to change. And that’s hard. We always want the other person to change.
Carrie: Right, and I think working with our daughter and trying to help her when she has these completely age-appropriate meltdowns because she’s been teething or refused her nap that day or her stomach hurts, and we don’t even know about it. You know, all these things come up, and at the moment, it seems like it’s, you know, I want the banana over the strawberries; really, it has nothing to do with that. It’s all these other factors and knowing that we can have the opportunity to bring the calm into the situation and like get down on her level and talk to her and like, okay, you know, I can see you’re really upset right now.
Steve: Well, and that isn’t easy in general. And it’s easy for a couple, I think, with children. They have problems because they have a child or children, in our case, a child, who may have been screaming for 20 minutes at the top of their lungs. You’re just at wit’s end to please make it go away, just stop, not the child, the screaming, and then the communication between the two of you can be rather snappy. It’s not personal, just give me the sippy cup, take the child here, do this, and it’s nothing personal, it’s just, oh my gosh, have you checked your diaper lately? There’s always something. And what are those moments you look at later and go, I’m sorry, I may have been a little snappy. It’s hard to focus on how to calm her down, and you’re going off on your spouse—just a tricky thing.
Carrie: I think, too, there’s that element where sometimes we’ll be trying to have a conversation in the car, and then all of a sudden in the backseat is because she can’t talk fully.
Steve: She wants to join in.
Carrie: Yes,
Steve: Those are the moments I kind of smile myself and then begin to insert her name every fourth word, maybe asking you when we go to the store, are we going to buy this, that, or the other, and then I insert her name, which makes no sense in real-time, but when talking with her, she hears her name and is happy to be a part of the conversation, I’m hoping.
Carrie: Despite all the difficult things that have happened this year, in terms of our themes of joy coming in the morning, we will talk about where you see things going.
Steve: Yes, I think there are so many opportunities that have come up already, be it with church or missions or whatever; there’s just so much to look forward to. And I know that there will be, as the song said, mama said, there’d be days like this. There are going to be those days. But I look forward to good things as well, and I think that some elegant stuff is coming up the pike, so I’m excited about that; I’m excited that some of my doctor visits, my annual checkups are already behind me, got my eyes taken care of, and no significant change there, and that’s a blessing. Some of my neurological visits and all that are coming up have already passed. They’ve already passed for a while. So those are good things. I look forward to those. Most people don’t like the doctor’s visits, but I like them because I get the news, and I’m done with it for a while. Get it behind me. I’m looking forward to what’s coming up the pike for sure.
Carrie: When you have this generative disease, stability is a blessing; staying the same and not deteriorating further is always a positive. So, we appreciate that whenever we hear that. Just in general, your health numbers are doing well.
Steve: Those are doing really well. On top of that, knowing that I am doing as well as I am is a blessing in the sense that we didn’t know when we first got this diagnosis, we didn’t know. It almost gave me the feeling like golly, I could die tomorrow. But now I’ve heard some individuals have the same thing. Maybe we don’t necessarily know which type, yes, thank you. Which type that I have? But we know that I have it. And the lifespan, again, I thought, golly, I could die tomorrow. Who couldn’t die tomorrow? I hear about people who have been living to be 80 years old. And I hear about, because of what they’ve discovered through studies for Parkinson’s disease, they’ve been able to say, hey, that’ll work for SCA as well. And now I’m not on this medication, but for certain types of SCA, they can take this medication, which slows it down a little bit, they think. I don’t have all the details on that, but I know that it’s exciting that they found something. Those types of things are exciting to me. That’s definitely something to consider a joy, and I can get up and spend time with my family, enjoy the days I have now, and make the very best of each day. That’s exciting.
Carrie: We got involved in an SCA support group and have just learned so much through the other individuals, things that have worked for them, been helpful, not helpful, and then been able even to take some of that information like to your eye appointment and say, hey, This was recommended to us, or we found out this doesn’t work as well with SCA. That’s been a blessing, I think, for me and just this whole podcast journey and our relationship. I want to impact more people positively for the kingdom, just continuing to spread messages of hope. That people can get the help that they need out there. I know that you have stepped in and been a big support in promoting the podcast, even sometimes talking to people or supporting me in going to the AACC conference when that happened.
There were some long days there, and you had more duties and responsibilities at home or with Faith. I appreciate everything that you’ve done to help support this podcast. It’s been a wild ride, and it’s hard to believe that it’s been about three years. Just all the things that God has done indoors that he’s opened and to be able to launch the course recently, and I hope this next year to work on a book I’m thinking it’s going to be for Christians with anxiety some focus on OCD. They want to do some writing about anxiety, So I’m not exactly sure what direction or bent I’m going to go with that. I want to provide some practical tools to help and support people experiencing that. Still, I’m just excited to see what the Lord is going to do, and we are hopeful to be able to move in 2024 possibly. Praise the Lord. So, we are looking for better accessible housing than we have right now. Not that our accommodation is terrible as far as you’re getting around. It’s just not going to serve us in the future. And we know that. And so, we are trying to get something that’s more one level or flatter yard or something. That’s going to be more,
Steve: Flat is the keyword there, at least as far as the yard goes and fewer steps. Also, I’d like to say that I’m proud of you for how much effort and time and all of that you’ve put into the podcast and your work and what you do, and knowing you as I do, of course, I’m going to brag on you, but you put a lot of heart into what you do. And I think it shows, I definitely think it shows.
It’s exciting that I remember when you hadn’t even started the podcast. And now you’re on number 105 or something crazy like that? That’s wonderful, and there are days, I’ll be honest, I listen and think I will need a dictionary. I don’t know what that means because I’m not in that world. And then I’ll listen and say, “Oh, well, that’s really interesting. I never knew that.” I tell people if I’m talking to someone at the doctor’s office or wherever, and they say I have a problem with anxiety. I have perfect help for you here. I always try to remind them that if they look through the episodes, one may stand out to them. It’s not focused on one little thing, and even when it’s not something you’re necessarily interested in, as you listen, you find, wow, that’s got a lot for me to take away. I had no clue that that also pertained to me or that I would get that much out of it. So, it’s not boring. I’ll give it that. It’s very informative, and I enjoy that—so good job.
Carrie: Well, thank you. I want all of our listeners to know that I made some great connections at the AACC conference. So that means more interesting guests to come next year. And kind of now that we’ve had over a hundred episodes, we’re able to just branch down different rabbit holes.
There are still more things to talk about. It’s kind of surprising that there are always new topics and ways that we can apply what we’re learning to help with anxiety and OCD. Everyone, definitely stay tuned. We have some free resources on our website. I’d love to tell you about it, too. You can go to Hopeforanxietyandocd.com. We have our download from our hundredth episode on A Hundred Ways to Help You Manage Anxiety. We have an OCD resource: five things every Christian with OCD needs to know. We’ve got a few different things going on there and would love to have you check those resources out. Thank you, everyone, so much for listening today.
Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a Licensed Professional Counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
On today’s episode, I want to take a moment to open up and share my personal journey of grief and loss over the past year. It’s been a challenging road, but I find purpose in sharing my story with all of you, knowing that it might help someone going through similar challenges.
Episode Highlights:
The profound impact of losing both parents and navigating the complex emotions that arise from such a significant loss.
The importance of allowing yourself to grieve and acknowledging the unique challenges that come with losing both parents.
Honoring your loved ones’ memories and finding ways to keep their legacy alive in your own life.
The transformative power of surrendering to God’s plan and finding peace amidst adversity.
Episode Summary:
Welcome to Christian Faith and OCD, episode 99. I’m Carrie Bock, and today I’m sharing a very personal story that’s been unfolding over the past year—a journey through grief and loss. As hard as it’s been, I believe there’s value in sharing these moments because grief touches us all in different ways.
My journey through grief began in March 2022 with the birth of our daughter, Faith. Just a few weeks after, my mom came to visit, and we discovered that she was battling pancreatic cancer. At first, we thought it might be pancreatitis, but the diagnosis quickly turned to something more serious. We were hopeful she could undergo surgery, but unfortunately, the cancer had already spread too fast. It was an overwhelming and crushing realization, coming at a time when I was still recovering from childbirth, processing the emotional and physical toll of bringing new life into the world while confronting the reality of losing someone so dear to me.
As I reflect on this past year, I’ve come to see how deeply intertwined joy and sorrow can be. While there have been moments of profound pain, there have also been moments of grace. God has met me in unexpected ways, showing me that even in the midst of heartache, there’s room for healing and growth. I know many of you are walking through your own journeys of grief, and my prayer is that through today’s episode, you’ll find comfort in knowing that you’re not alone and that God’s presence can sustain us through even the toughest of times.
Welcome to Christian Faith and OCOD, episode 99. I am your host, Carrie Bock. If you’ve been following along with our podcast, then you know that I’ve experienced some pretty significant grief and loss over the last year. And even though it’s a hard thing for me to talk about, I wanted to share because I feel like since having this podcast, I’ve been through a lot and every time I go through something and learn something new, I definitely want to put that out in the world and share it with you.
I don’t want to just suffer in vain. If this can help someone else who is going through grief and loss, I really want to share that with them. All of us are going to experience grief and loss at some point or another. It’s just a part of our lives now. And it doesn’t matter how young you are, how old you are, how rich or poor, whether you live in America or in Australia.
At some point, you’re going to go through grief and loss. Whether that’s the loss of a person that’s close to you, the loss of a job, divorce, a move that was stressful, involves loss of relationships, there’s definitely something that we can all learn from each other as part of this process in the joint collective human experience.
I wanted to start by going over, just the bird’s eye view of what’s happened since Faith was born, our daughter. In March, 2022, Faith was born and my mom flew up a few weeks after my in-laws were here right after she was born. And mom was having some problems with her stomach. She was saying, “You know, I’m not eating certain things.”
She had been treated for pancreatitis. The doctors didn’t have answers as to why she was continuing to struggle with her stomach issues. Just a couple of months later, Memorial Day in May, Mom got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. She had to wait to have all these scans and different things. I guess several doctors had to be involved in the ultrasound process to look at the mass on our pancreas, and Steve and I had gone away at that point for the weekend.
We just wanted a little mini vacation before I got back to work. I had been on maternity leave for 12 weeks. Things were just a little bit different in our life. We had support system that felt a little bit shaky, somewhat isolated from staying home with the baby for the first few months, but then also we were trying to get connected with another church.
We ended up making a difficult decision towards the end of 21 to leave the church that we had been going to, and so we were in the process of trying to get in a small group or some type of Sunday school or ministry at the new church in mid-July of 22. On my birthday, we flew down to see my mom.
At this point, I knew things weren’t great with my mom. They had told her that she could have surgery to have the cancer removed and only about 25% of people with pancreatic cancer can actually go through the surgery. I think it has to do with a certain blood vessel in that area, and once that gets wrapped around surgery is too dangerous.
We had this surgery that my mom was supposed to be able to have or that we were hopeful that she would be able to have and then have a longer life. It turns out that the cancer spread too quickly, and so she had to go back into the hospital. They were not able to do the original surgery to remove the cancer, but of course, she was having other problems and they were trying to work with different tubes to get things straightened out so that she could function.
I remember telling my mom that I didn’t want to wait until she was on her deathbed to come out and see her and let her know how much I loved her, Steve Faith, and I ended up getting a one-way flight to Florida and we stayed down there for three weeks while I was working online, trying to rebuild a practice after coming back for maternity leave.
In a summer, in which no one wanted to be online because everyone had Zoom fatigue from COVID, they would have rather run off and gone on vacations understandable than see a therapist. That was tough. I really just made sure that everyone else was taken care of except for me. I would go visit Mom in the hospital. I would pick up dinner for Dad or make dinner. Sometimes I was seeing clients. I was making sure that my husband and my daughter were okay. During that visit, we kept hoping that my mom was going to be able to get out of the hospital where she would be able to spend more time with my daughter. And unfortunately, mom was only out of the hospital for a couple of days and then things happened with her feeding tube.
She had to go right back in. It was unfortunate that we didn’t get more. Time with her outside of the hospital, but we decided to celebrate all the summer birthdays in our family, which is myself, my brother and my dad all have birthdays in the summer. And then towards the beginning of September after we had gotten back, my husband was having a little bit of some mild balance issues, more when it was dark or couldn’t see very well, or the lighting was bad, but most of the time he was getting around pretty well. When last year, in July and towards the beginning of September, the day Faith turned six months old, Steve had an appointment with the specialty neurologist. He was diagnosed with SCA or Spino Cerebellar Ataxia and that was like a big hit as we are dealing with my mom dying and a few weeks later my mom dies on the evening of September 22nd.
My mom really suffered a lot with this cancer and that was so hard to see my mom go through that. She was always just a very devoted person to the Lord, to church ministry, and I really had a lot of spiritual wrestlings about moms suffering towards the end of her life. It just changed the way I have viewed a lot of things, which I’ll talk about a little bit later.
Losing Mom was really such a big hole because she was a person that I would talk to about everything. She was a go-to person. I talked to her every week and let her know kind of what was going on with my business efforts that I was trying to do.
She was my biggest fan for the podcast. Absolutely, just an incredible woman of God. I know that she struggled in her own faith journey towards the end just wondering, do I have enough faith for God to heal me? And of course we were praying so hard during this whole process of my mom being sick and having cancer and okay, praise God, she can have surgery. Like, “Oh no, she can’t.” Now what does this mean for our family? It was tough. It was really tough going through all that, but knowing also that because my mom had a relationship with the Lord that when she died, she would go to heaven and it was a hard piece kind of, there was a little bit of role-switching in a lot of ways towards the end with my mom because I felt like I had to be strong for her as she was going through everything and.
I’m dealing at the same time with this new diagnosis for Steve and I don’t really have the support of anyone to process that with or talk to them about it. And in this process, Steve, his balance was really declining and started using a cane. Got him in October, I think, into a vestibular therapy. It was just a tough time.
And in October, it was about a month after my mom died that we had her memorial. That timing was hard waiting a month because it felt like I was trying to work through things. But then also there was this lack of closure because we knew we had to go back to Florida and deal with the funeral and everything else and eally the silver lining of the whole situation was being able to have Faith there to spend so much time with my extended family and with my dad while she was in her first year of life. Obviously, we didn’t plan to go back and forth to Florida that many times in her first year, but it was just a good time with my immediate family. But my dad’s extended family, most of them are in Florida as well, and both my parents came from pretty big families.
It is nice to have the support of aunts and uncles and others. Since we had already planned to come down for Thanksgiving and I think had already booked flights or made arrangements to come down, we went ahead and came down for Thanksgiving. That was ended up being about a month later, and I didn’t know that at the time. That would be the last time that I’d seen my dad in person. He was struggling, of course, as we all were with like the first holiday without mom, and he told me that he. I was gonna really miss this cake that she used to make.
It’s a family recipe that we always make around Thanksgiving and Christmas. It’s horrible for you. It’s mostly Crisco and eggs and flour. But anyway, we made this cake. I told Dad I would make the cake for him, and I’m not lying. That is a hard cake to make and not get dry. It was like the best one I’ve made probably ever, which was just really cool, so everyone appreciated it, and of course, it was all eaten. I didn’t last on the dessert table very long, but that was a good time and just a good memories with my family.
We spent Christmas with Steve’s family and it was super cold in Tennessee and March. We had Faith’s first birthday. My dad had been telling me, “Okay, when Faith turns one, I want an updated picture of her, like an eight by 10.” I was like, “Okay, well you’re gonna have to tell me like which picture you want of her?” And he said, “Well, no, she has to turn one first.” So I was like, “Okay, dad.” And we ended up having a video call with my dad, aunt, brothers, and nephews, and my dad got to see Faith walk on the video call, and then Dad died.
A week later, after Faith’s birthday, we were back down in Florida about a week later for the funeral. We decided not to have so much time in between and where it was gonna be close to Easter. So we didn’t want to interfere with Easter plans and those things. My dad wasn’t in the best of health, whereas my mom had been in really good health, so when she got cancer, it was a huge shock because she’d always taken such good care of herself, was into vitamins and eating vegetables, all those things. She didn’t drink soda. She didn’t drink a lot of coffee. She just lived a pretty healthy lifestyle. She was walking on a regular basis. When mom got sick and died before dad, it was a shock for all of us as a family because dad hadn’t been in the best health for years, and my dad had a stroke several years ago and he’s had trouble with his blood pressure and weight.
He had been overweight for probably the majority of his adult life. I had always thought for the last few years when I would visit my dad or he would come to Tennessee, I would have thoughts like, what if this is the last time I see my dad? And wanted to let him know obviously that I loved him and he was one of these people that he never thought about, like his own mortality.
He was just kind of, I think, expected to live forever. He wasn’t, didn’t seem to be really worried about those things, but when Dad died, even though I knew he wasn’t in good health, I didn’t really understand the weight that I would feel over no longer having parents at all. It just felt like I was in this child orphan situation.
I kept saying I feel lost and used the word weird more than once to describe the feeling. There’s just no other feeling like that when you lose both of your parents, especially in such a short time period. My head was super, super cloudy. Right after that, I had to write everything down for my reminders. I know I wasn’t functioning at max capacity.
I wanted to tell you a few of the things that I did during my grief process that I felt were helpful for me. One was I showed up in my relationship with God even if I didn’t have the words, or I couldn’t even think to pray. And I can’t explain to you what happens in those moments spiritually, but I know that the Bible says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. And that brought me a sense of comfort because I really didn’t know what to say and couldn’t think straight.
When mom got sick, I made the decision to go back on antidepressants because I knew that I had to function and when I was crying for like an hour straight, it just wasn’t functional at all. And I just made that decision that I was gonna be on them at least the first year after mom died to get through all the first pieces, first holidays and things like that. I made the decision to go to bed at the same time every night. You wouldn’t think that’s like a major life change, but it really has changed my life. Steve jokes with me about it. He is like, “Hey, it’s five minutes till your bedtime.” I used to be one of those people who were like, one more thing before I went to bed, and It didn’t work out for me well because it was usually my one more thing somehow engaged my mind and required some mental activities. So it was a little too stimulating before I needed to go to sleep. So now my nighttime routine is much more mellow and I found that by going to bed around the same time every night or by a certain time, has helped me to get more restful sleep and helped me to feel better and more refreshed in the morning.
I haven’t had problems falling asleep since I started doing that. And as many of you know, from a prior episode, I cut back where I could on work to take care of myself and reduce mental energy. It meant saying no to some clients that wanted to work through grief and loss issues. It meant saying no to all clients for a short time period.
I struggled with this because I had some type of imaginary deadline for this course that I wanted to put out for Christians with OCD, and I just emailed everyone on the list and put the whole thing on hold. If you’re not a part of our email list, you can join by going to hopeforeanxietyandocd/free, if you want the OCD resource. It was tough to have to slow down because I enjoy living at a little bit faster pace and I’m naturally like a goal setter and I have things that I want to accomplish and things that I look forward to around the corner. But, That wasn’t where I was at at the time.
I had a severe lack of motivation. I would tell my counselor, I would tell other people I get out of bed right now because I have to because I have a daughter and a husband who need me and need my help. Other than that, if it wasn’t for them, I probably would have spent a lot more time in the bed just moping around and being sad and a lot less functional, but because I essentially had to put one foot in front of the other and do the basics, I just really focused on the basics of making sure that we were eating, sleeping, and the house was relatively clean, somewhat.
I learned in this grief process to engage and enlist my support system, and it’s so humbling to ask for help, and I realized I wasn’t gonna make it through without the support of others. I asked for more help on our last trip to Florida than I had on any of the others. If you want to help someone going through grief and loss, what can you do?
Make them food or bring them food because the last thing you want to spend mental energy on at that moment is what is for dinner. It’s almost like your brain is just constantly trying to multitask, working through the grief and loss process. It’s very taxing mentally, physically, emotionally.
You can mow someone’s lawn, you can watch their kid, and there are so many different little things that you can do. One of the sweetest things that someone did for us was give us a few groceries when we got back from Dad’s funeral since we’d been gone for a couple weeks and I was helping clean out my parents’ house at that point too. I didn’t have the perishable food, the basics, bread, milk, eggs. They bought us just a few things and it was simple, yet incredibly thoughtful. So just know that even if you can’t relate to what someone’s going through, or you’re not sure how to respond, those little acts of kindness and love will really stick out to them.
There’s been so much that happened in the last 15 months as I wrote all this down. I was just overwhelmed, That was a lot to go through, and I’ve learned a lot, not just about some healthy things I could do for myself, but some things about grief. Some I knew from the experience of going through my divorce, but to be honest, I had forgotten how tough the grief process is.
Grief is exhausting. It takes time. There are no shortcuts. I went back and started reading the book, “Life After Loss” again, that I had read after my divorce. The author talks about how you can’t get over grief, you have to go through it. I highly recommend that book. It’s about losses of many different kinds. He talks about death, divorce, moving to a new city, starting over. I learned that in terms of family members, other people may be at a different phase of grief process than you are, and that can be really challenging. My dad never really accepted that my mom was dying, even up to the very end saying that he was shocked when she did die, and that she’d been very sick for some time. But I think that he was still holding onto a lot of hope that they would be able to do chemo and get rid of the cancer, and Mom just was never strong enough to do chemo. Her body just wasn’t in a place where it could handle that due to all the drains and different things she had going on. You may be in a stage of grief where you’re angry about the grief and loss and someone else is really sad.
You may be in a place of sadness and somebody else is in anger and it’s. Sometimes it’s hard to meet your other family members on that level. That definitely was something that came up for me. I had a lot of anger about my mom’s care, or somewhat lack of care that she experienced while she was in the hospital by her doctors.
I felt like they weren’t really honest with her about outcomes. You know, just were insensitive. There were some things that were said that were pretty insensitive, and I became very angry and frustrated in that process. I really just tried to advocate for her wherever I could. When I would go there, I was reminded that grief is hard when you know it’s coming, and it’s hard when you don’t.
One isn’t better than the other. They’re just different. With Mom, we knew she was dying. We got to have a lot of goodbye conversations. Just a lot of time spent in the hospital talking about her as a mom and even my parents were able to have conversations about, you know, being a spouse and all of that.
With Dad, we didn’t get to say goodbye. It was just suddenly he died of a heart attack in his sleep, basically. I’m glad that he didn’t suffer, even though we didn’t get those opportunities necessarily in the same way that we got them with Mom, when you have the sudden grief and loss, it’s shocking. It jolts you in a way and when you know it’s coming, you still don’t know when it’s coming, so you’re anticipating something.
I remember even telling some people, I didn’t tell them the whole story, but I was trying to kind of make plans and letting people know, “Hey, I may have to travel at a moment’s notice and I may not be able to fulfill that responsibility just without trying to tell them the whole story of what was going on with my mom. So definitely grief is hard either way. I realize that you could have a lot of different conflicting emotions and grief that mess you up like I was talking about before. One moment you might be intensely sad, and then another moment you might be super angry.
Another moment you might have some regret. I think that regret is probably the hardest emotion to have. I really try mostly to live my life without any regrets. I think that’s why I wanted to come down and see my mom when I did, and Steve was definitely a strong supporter and proponent of that. He was like, “Just do what you have to do to be with your family.”
Even though it was hard, I know on him and Faith just change of schedule and routine and location, that I’m glad that I did that in that situation and I’m glad that I saw my dad, you know, at Thanksgiving. I’m glad that we had that time to spend together and I’m thankful for that. In my own ways, I always tried to communicate to him how much I loved him and valued him as a parent. I had a much probably closer relationship with my mom than I did with my dad, even though I know he still loved me in his own way, but I just had different feelings about the situations and the deaths.
Definitely, there’s a lot of spiritual questioning that can come in these situations. Why did my mom have to suffer this way?Why did on the way out of her life, especially when she served God and served the church, you know, why didn’t God answer our prayers? For healing in the way that we wanted to so that we could still have Mom here with us. I don’t know. I don’t have full answers for those things. I know that God gave me peace about my mom’s suffering because my mom was very open about her faith to people in the hospital, and she was open about, She loved telling them that she had a granddaughter who was actually born on my mom’s birthday, believe it or not.
We did not plan it that way. That’s just the way it happened. But she was supposed to be born several weeks later. My mom was very open with people about her faith and she would give out these little Billy Graham tracks. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen those. I’m surprised there are still tracks out there really, to be honest, and people still use that.
If it works and it brings someone to Christ, that’s great, but she would hand out these little steps to peace with God. Billy Graham tracks. I know that there was one time I was in the hospital sitting with her and one of the nurses came in and she said, “Oh, I took that booklet that you gave me and I showed it to some of the other nurses.” I told God, during this process of prayer, I really hope someone in that hospital got saved up in there and I probably will never know this side of heaven if what the impact of my mom being there was. God gave me the piece, that was her last mission field on this earth was just sharing the love of Christ with people on her way out, and that’s just how she was.
My mom went to school actually to be a missionary. She never left the country. That’s a long story, but she spent most of her time in her career as an ophthalmic assistant working for an eye clinic.
I learned no one wants to have the hard conversation about death, not even the doctors. Whereas I think I’ve heard other experiences where doctors were quick to predict how long a family member had. They definitely weren’t in my mom’s situation. In some ways, that was good. But in other ways, it was really to the detriment. I think when she got down to the final weeks and days left, we were able to get her home with hospice for a few days to spend those time with my dad, but then she actually went back to the hospital and passed away there. I think for some reason she didn’t want to pass away at home. I don’t know if that had to do with, she was concerned about how it will affect my dad, but I’m glad that she had some time at home before she passed away.
It’s tough because I don’t think my mom fully faced her own mortality until palliative care came in and started talking with her about if she wanted to sign, do not resuscitate or what she wanted her final wishes to be for her living will. She ended up being very upset by that conversation, and I fault the doctors for that because I don’t think they prepped her for how little time that she had left and how her body was essentially shutting down at that point. This, especially with Steve’s diagnosis and all the uncertainty, it’s prompted us to have a lot of conversations about death, living will, final wishes, and those conversations are so important to have. I can guarantee you that your loved one does not want to sit there and think about what song you might like at your funeral, because when you’re going through grief, just thinking about something like that, it sounds so simple, but yet it’s so hard in that moment to know like, I don’t know.
Well, would they have wanted this song or am I just picking that because it sounds good or It’s easy? I would say that’s one good thing that has come out of the situation for Steve and I to have honest conversations about, do you want to be kept alive by a breathing machine? Do you want to have a feeding tube? What do you want? If things get really bad or you’re in a coma and nobody thinks you’re gonna wake up, those are. Hard conversations to have, and we also had a lawyer that really walked us through the entire process of getting a will and making sure that our daughter was taken care of in that process.
If something should happen to us before she’s 18 and how she will be taken care of, who will take care of her? We both have living wills now and some paperwork if we need to get medical records from each other. It’s just really good. I feel a lot more at peace having that prepared now, and hopefully we won’t need our wills for quite some time, but you just never know.
It’s important that we have these conversations about death. My counselor told me about a book, and I don’t exactly remember what it was called, but it’s a book where you can fill out even what you would like to have happen to your pets and what type of funeral or burial would you like to have? Those types of things. Are you wanting to donate your organs or your body in some way to help others? I would encourage you to have some of these hard conversations, especially if you have older relatives in your family. Ask them, “Hey, do you have a living will or have you thought about what you might like or not like? Do you have any plans that you would like for your funeral?” Of course, nobody wants to talk about when they’re gonna die, but these conversations are just so vital for our families because it really, not having to plan all that stuff or not having to make the decision for you because you’ve already made the decision on paper, that is just a great gift that you can give your family.
I learned that grief is best shared. One of the most powerful things I did as part of my grief and loss process was going to an all-day grief intensive, which sounds bad, I guess, to some people, but it was nice. It was at the Refuge Center for Counseling in Franklin, and I spent all day with a small group of people really to process various griefs and losses that we were going through. And even though everyone’s story was different, it’s like we understood each other on a certain level of shared experience, and that was such a gift. We were able to go through several different experiential activities. We did art projects and other things. We were able to process information in different ways, and it really got me thinking about how those experiential in the moment, Therapy exercises can be so helpful and wanting to do more of those with my clients.
I think my biggest takeaway was that I got to be the client again, and nobody knew that I was a therapist, which was so beautiful. With the grief intensive brought out that I’m not sure that I would’ve gotten there in just an individual setting or just by talking about it if we weren’t doing these different activities. Was that because Steve got his SCA diagnosis? Just a short time before my mom died was that I never had an opportunity to grieve that. I never had the opportunity to grieve the change of my life, the big change of becoming a mom because I became a mom and then my mom got sick, so there was no sense of me like adjustment period to becoming a new mom.
There’s grief and lost with that because you rarely leave your house after seven o’clock. There are so many things that revolve around nap times. Whether or not your child got enough sleep the night before, if they’re teething, how they’re feeling. It just really kind of restricts your activities quite a bit, and I don’t think I had ever taken the time to even process through that.
Who am I now that I’m a mom? There was that piece that came out, but also, this piece of who am I now, that I’m also caring for someone who’s disabled and even though my husband is at a place where he can do a lot of things for himself, things are changing and there are some things that I have to be more responsible for we’re definitely remind him of.
The thing about grief and loss is that you end up with a new identity in the end because there’s this missing space in your life of someone who used to be there who used to be such a big impact on you. I felt that when I went through my divorce process, and I also felt that after my parents passed away, I really needed to feel the depth of that related to the life that I thought Steve and I were gonna have in the life that we have now.
It’s still a great and amazing life, and I can say that in a place of acceptance, but I needed to really be sad and frustrated about what it’s like to have, of course, a very rare diagnosis that most people don’t get. I can’t say, “Hey, my husband has Parkinson’s, or my husband has MS.” People know what those things are. I have to say my husband has SCA, or my husband has ataxia and hear people say, “What does that mean?” And then you have to go into this explanation of what it means, and it just can be pretty frustrating. Of course, everyone wants to be helpful and a lot of times doesn’t know what to say or how to act or how to be helpful.
There were a lot of different things that I was able to process that. I realized there was some completion around, or acceptance around the grief and loss of my parents because there was some pre-grieving that happened before they actually died, but also because there was some finality to it and I knew, okay, they’re in heaven, they’re okay. Whereas with my husband and my daughter even too, it’s like sitting on the edge of uncertainty. What is next month going to be like? What is next year going to be like? Even the doctors can’t tell you that no one knows, only God knows. We really have to sit in a place of trust with Him and just say, “Okay, you got this.”
We’re just so thankful of how well Steve is doing all things considered, and he’s come just such a long way in therapy. He was able to graduate through that and has been walking well. So far, so we’re just, every day we’re thankful. Having faith really keeps them active, which is good as well, cuz that’s an important part of this particular diagnosis is just staying active.
If you’re grieving right now, what I want you to know is that there is hope on the other side. That if you take the time to process this, to talk about your loved one, whether that’s in individual therapy or group therapy or some type of art therapy process, that you can come to a greater place of peace about losing your loved one, even if it was a challenging relationship or even if it was a traumatic loss for you.
The main thing is that you have to stay the course and stay with the process. You can’t just shove it down or try to ignore it, or pretend like something didn’t happen. Really being able to acknowledge this hurts me, or I’m angry about this, or I’m confused. I don’t understand. That expression is so important and vital to your grief process.
If you can find a support group or other people that are going through it as well, I think that’s an incredible opportunity too. One of the reasons I chose to do the intensive was because I just couldn’t seem to get it together to fit a support group in my schedule. And I didn’t want to go in the evening somewhere after I hadn’t seen my daughter and had been working all day.
That just didn’t quite seem right and some, I couldn’t quite fit the Zoom group in. Then my schedule, I was just having problems making space for this. So when I saw the intensive option, I thought, okay, this is good. I do some intensive work with my clients and it’ll be good for me to see what that’s like.
On the other side, I will say that the next day, I don’t know if this was related to the intensive or not, I had the worst headache that I had had in a really long time, so I don’t know if that was just from all the mental and emotional processing that I had done the day before. That piece was a little rough, but I definitely left feeling a lot lighter.
It’s great to be in an environment where people are just holding emotional space for you. And that’s a lot of like what we do in therapy, and my friend and I talk about this, who’s also a therapist, is that a lot of times we don’t know how to sit in that space with people to just say like, “I’m here. I’m here if you want to talk. I’m here if you want to be silent.” I think most importantly, “I have no advice for you because there’s really no good advice that you can give in that moment” or to say like, “I know how you feel” because you really don’t know how that person feels even if you’ve been through a loss. Their loss was different than yours in so many ways. That was one of the best parts about the grief intensive was being told, “Hey, here’s one of the rules.” You can’t give advice or just make platitudes.
Another rule was that we had to own our own grief process instead of making general comments. Grief or saying, well, when you go through grief, but we had to say like, when I’m grieving or my experience with my grief process is, and that was really good too for us to be able to take ownership over the process.
You aren’t in control of all the feelings that come up. You aren’t in control of the actual grief situation, but you can be, take ownership for the process of healing, and that piece is hard. Hard, but a good process and a good journey to be on.
My story of hope right now is that even though my daughter’s going grow up in, she’s not going to remember grandma and grandpa as far as my side of the family goes, but know that I want her to know them, so I know that I will keep talking with her about them, and I will keep expressing to her, how excited they were to have her as a granddaughter and how loving and supportive they were towards her.
Thank you everyone for listening and really just being a part of this process on the journey with me. I think God knows exactly what we need at the time that we need it, and to be just completely frank with you, I think if I didn’t have this conference coming up, Where I was going to promote the podcast to a bunch of counselors and hadn’t already paid that money to do so. I may have just thrown in the towel on the whole thing.
I don’t want to do that unless it’s something that God tells me that, “Hey, we’re done and you need to stop doing this.” But that was so tough for me to keep going. And what I really thought about was all the people who said, this podcast has helped me in some way, shape, or form, or, it’s helped me understand my loved one better.
So many people have written and said, “Hey, I knew I had anxiety, but I didn’t know I had OCD until I started listening to your podcast. That’s such a beautiful story and journey because then now they can get proper help and proper treatment and know how to deal with it. Their situation is different than they did before.
It’s such a beautiful thing just being able to share these things with you guys each and every week and spread that there is hope for anxiety. There’s hope for OCD. Of course, our ultimate hope is in Jesus Christ. So know that even though we may have never met, you are a blessing in my life, and I enjoy the opportunity to be able to share parts of my life with you.
Stay tuned because I’m doing something very special for our 100th episode, and that’s bringing you 100 tips for managing anxiety. Come listen along with us in a couple weeks.
Christian Faith and and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
In this episode, we compile and share stories of hope from previous guests of the podcast. These stories offer inspiration and encouragement, even if they don’t directly relate to anxiety or OCD.
Episode Highlights:
(Episode 7) Anika Mullen – Overcoming a rare condition during pregnancy. Anika finds hope in her family’s resilience.
(Episode 28): Brittany Dyer – Inspired by her school counselor after losing her parents, Brittany becomes a counselor herself, offering hope to others.
(Episode 21): Laura Mullis – Through prayer, Laura discovers the importance of self-healing in helping others on their journey to recovery.
(Episode 57): Aaron Huey – Aaron’s encounter with Christ and the love from strangers transform his life and inspire his commitment to addiction recovery.
Episode Summary:
Welcome to episode 97 of Christian Faith and OCD. I’m your host, Carrie Bock, and today I’m thrilled to bring you “Stories of Hope, Volume One.” This episode features inspiring personal journeys shared by our guests over the past two and a half years. Initially, I launched the podcast with the idea of asking guests to share stories of hope, not necessarily tied to anxiety or OCD, but simply about resilience and faith.
These stories have enriched my life, and I wanted to compile them to give you the same sense of encouragement. Plus, it’s helping me process my own grief after the loss of my parents, which I spoke about in episode 94.
In this episode, you’ll hear from incredible people like Anika Mullen, who bravely navigated a rare pregnancy condition, Brittany Dyer, whose childhood loss inspired her career in counseling, Laura Mullis, who shares how God helped her through addiction recovery, and Aaron Huey, whose powerful testimony of overcoming drug addiction left me in tears.
Each of these stories reflects the power of faith, community, and God’s unrelenting grace, offering hope and healing. Tune in for these transformative testimonies, and may you find hope wherever you are in your journey.
Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 97. This episode is going to be Stories of Hope, volume one, and I am your host, Carrie Bock. If you don’t know me, Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast, when I started listening to podcasts, there was one that I would listen to where she would ask some of the same questions at the end of every show.
I thought, well, for this podcast, why don’t we ask people to share with us a story of hope because it’s called Hope for Anxiety and OCD and we made it so that the story didn’t have to be about anxiety or OCD in particular. Some of our guests didn’t have personal experience with that. Their story of hope we knew was gonna be a little bit different.
I’ve been so enriched by these stories through the last two and a half years that I thought, why don’t we do a compilation episode of them? And this is also giving me some time and bandwidth to work through the grief and loss of my parent’s death. If you listen to our episode 94 podcast, we kind of know what’s going on with me there.
Anika Mullen’s Story of Hope
Our first couple of stories of hope to review, I want to say, are things I didn’t know about my friends. Now, I had spent a lot of time with Anika Mullen, but had no idea that she had her story of Hope. Now, Annika shared this before I ever became pregnant, but I would remember what she said through my pregnancy when I had a lot of various complications that came up. So I’m so glad that she shared this on episode seven because. It really meant a lot to me and encouraged me later when I had my daughter.
Anika: The most challenging times of my life was when I was pregnant with my child and I had a condition. It started five weeks before my child was born and my body broke out in hives and blisters from my ribcage all the way down to my toes.
It was very hard to sleep. It just felt like I was constantly burning, especially my fingers and toes because there are so many nerve endings there. It was just very hard to cope with. It’s a pretty rare condition and for the majority of the women that have it, it fades away after the baby’s born. In my case, I was one of the very few that it continued after my child was born for about five more weeks.
After my child was born, and it did not go away, I no longer had an end date. Up until that point, I was like, all I have to do is make it until the baby’s born. All I have to do is make it the baby’s born. And then it was still there and I had an infant to feed and take care of, and it got to the point where I couldn’t even sleep.
I would be getting through the nights with ice packs on my fingers and my toes, and taking three or four hot cold showers to reduce. The level of burning sensation that I was experiencing, and I think it would’ve been really easily to become hopeless at that time. I was not getting enough sleep and already a stressful time of life.
Also, it’s a very idealized time. You should enjoy every moment of it. They’re only going to be little one. It could have been really easy to go down the why me, why did this happen to me. And one thing that gave me hope and really helped me through that time was remembering family members who had walked with a child through open heart surgery, and eventually the death of their child.
Just their courage and strength walking through that time gave me hope that I could get through whatever I was experiencing. It just really helped put it in perspective and remind me that people have gone through such difficult things and have come out of it as such beautiful, wonderful people that there is another side to this, and I can get through this however long it’s gonna last.
Brittany Dyer’s Story of Hope
On episode 28, my friend Brittany Dyer came to talk about play therapy and I had no idea that her story of hope was part of her life as well. And that one stood out to me. So here it is.
Brittany: My story actually kind of relates to what we’ve been talking about today and why I wanted to become a counselor. So I lost my parents when I was in elementary school.
They died suddenly, and I had a school counselor who was amazing. Her name’s Janna Chambers and I thankfully can still be in contact with her. My husband and her son are really good friends, so I still get to see her sometimes, which is amazing. But she was my hope during that time. She really helped me. I don’t remember anything that we did, to be honest.
I remember we played, but I don’t remember anything specific. The only thing I remember is one time we had puppets out, and that’s all I remember, but just going to see her and having that space where I felt comfortable. And she was just such a comforting person and caring and listening. I just remember feeling so light when I would come back from her office.
That’s the only way I know how to put it. It’s just I felt light. She helped me so much and gave me so much hope for my future and such a hard time for me. I am just so thankful for her and all the children that she influenced and helped throughout the years. I’m thankful that she inspired me to be a counselor and that I just get to pass along that hope to many other kids too.
Laura Mullis’ Story of Hope
My amazing mentor, Laura Mullis, was on episode 21 called Is Healing from Childhood Wounds The Key to Unlocking Anxiety. I really appreciated Laura’s story of hope, and it stands out to me today because God is so good to be honest with us and to speak to us directly sometimes when we really need it.
Laura: I guess I would say that one of my transformative shifts in my life was when I was in treatment for recovery from addiction, and I was praying for everybody else in my life, oh God, I want you to do this, but I want you to make sure this person remembers me and I want you to do this. And I was telling God exactly what I wanted him to do. It was like audibly, I heard God say, all right, listen up. First, you work on your relationship with me. Then you work on your relationship with yourself. Then you can work on your relationship with your family, and then I will add who I want into your life.
That moment changed everything for me because I realized that was the order. That was the order for healing, and I was trying to go top down rather than bottom up. I’ve lived my life that way for the past 19 years, and every bit of it has come true. It changed everything for me when I realized that, and I also feel like it also shapes how I help people on their process.
It helped me see a clearer path for not only how I got the healing I needed, but how people can get the healing they need.
Aaron Huey’s Story of Hope
Aaron Huey literally brought me to tears on his Story of Hope, episode 57: Parenting Teens in Crisis.
Aaron: On May 21st, 1998, I stopped using drugs and alcohol for good. On May 20th, 1998, I hit my knees and I asked for a miracle.
I had been a minister since 1996. I’ve had a very colorful spiritual life, but despite my promises to God, despite my promises to my daughter, despite my promises to who became my ex-wife, I loved drugs more to the point where the shame and the guilt forced me to my knees. And I said, “I can’t stop. You have to stop me. I’m not gonna quit. You have to make me quit.” And I’m asking for a miracle. I’m asking to be shown that there’s something outside of this cause otherwise this is gonna kill me and I’m slowly dying. You have to bring me back to life. The next morning I got up and I went to work and I got in my truck and I got high as I was driving to work and my truck died. And my parents lived out in the country outside of Long Mountain, Colorado. And so I had to walk about a mile and a half to get to a phone so I could call my dad to come pick me up. So I got my drugs and I got my paraphernalia, and I started walking, leaving my truck on the side of the road and up ahead on my left as I was walking down this road was this small, it’s the quintessential picture in your brain of an old country church, little white buildings, single room steeple and cross in the front, quintessential Norman Rockwell painting that you could imagine. And so I’m walking towards it.
I hear this noise and I know what’s coming, and my heart starts pounding. I know that I’m about to get what I asked for, which was the end. It was my personal Babylon was showing up, and as I’m walking, I’m getting closer.
I’m staring at this church trying not to look at it, and it’s just, and it’s getting louder and louder as I’m walking toward it, and I’m terrified. All I did was say, stop me. Now I knew that I was about to get stopped. I’m standing across the street from the driveway to this church and the noise is now the worst scratching TV fuzz, and it was so loud.
I turned and looked and Christ was standing there and he said, you can put down the drugs now for the rest of your life and never look back. Wow. And the feeling of love and forgiveness that I experienced in that moment, the overwhelm of pure, unconditional love, the thing that I had always been searching for and had never found.
It just washed me and I threw, took my drugs outta my pocket and carry, I swear on everything. I, that bag hit the ground and a wind went and blew it out, and I threw my pipe in a ditch and I burst into tears, and the noise was gone. The experience was over, and I walked. And if that was the end of the miracle, then this would be a nice short story, but I’m going to have to take you deeper into what happened next.
I go and I hit the phone. My dad comes and picks me up. I get home, I call to tell him I’m not coming in. They’re not surprised. I’m absent all the time because I’m always high. I go up to my room and I call the Triangle Club, the 12-step group there in Longmont, Colorado on Main Street. I had called him two weeks prior and the line was busy, and I promise you that I took that as a sign from God that I was overreacting and that drugs weren’t that bad.
I had lost my home custody of my daughter, and my marriage. I was living either in my parents’ house at 28 years old, or I was living in the back of my truck, and drugs weren’t that bad. That’s how insane this thing is. But this time when I called that the night of that first experience, May 21st, I called the 12 steps and somebody answered on the first ring and said, “Triangle club.”
I said, “When’s your next NA meeting? I think I’m an addict.” And the guy said, “Where are you? I’ll come get you.” And I said, “Don’t do this. And he goes, “It’s okay man. And I said, “Don’t you say it. I’m not ready to hear it.” And it got all quiet. And he said, “I love you, it’s okay.” I said I can’t do this right now. He said, “Every hour we have a meeting. If you need a ride, someone will get you. ” I hung up the phone on him.
There was that love of a stranger, somebody who didn’t know me didn’t know my past, and he was willing to say, I love you. So then the next morning I wake up and I go downstairs and I’ve decided I have the day off. so I’m going to a meeting and I go downstairs and my parents are watching TV and I kid you not, they’re watching Clean and Sober with Michael Keaton and I sit down on the couch and I’m like, I can’t believe this. I’m like, it’s this sustained miracle, and I’m exhausted. And I sit down and I turn off the TV and my mom goes, she has this funny way of saying it.
It’s very dear, “Excuse me” and she was being goofy, and I look at her and about to break her heart. And I say, “I’m not going to a meeting at work. I’m going to a 12-step meeting. I’m an addict.” And my mom goes pale. And my dad, the man who raised me, not my father, but the man who gave me everything, who had lied to, who had stolen from and hurt his younger biological children, he looked at me and he goes, “Whatever you need me to do, I’ll do it because I love you.”
It was those three experiences of unconditional love that I just said. That’s it. That’s what this is about. I don’t love me, but everybody else does, and this thing. That I’ve always been seeking for has been seeking me, and I just have to let it in now. And that’s what I say to families and to teenagers is, a, I love you, and B, what you are seeking is seeking you.
That was the miracle I got on May 21st, 1998. Then on the 22nd, the miracles continue. A biker who yanked me back into my chair at the 12-step meeting who told me to. Sit down and shut up for once in my life and maybe I’ll learn something who became my sponsor and the police officer that pulled me over after my first meeting and said, you know who?
I told him it was my first meeting. It was the first time I didn’t have drugs in my vehicle in seven years, and I didn’t have to lie. I. And he looked at me and he saw the big stack of 12-step books in my truck, and he goes, keep going back. It works if you work it and you’re worth it, which is what we say at the end of every 12-step meeting, which told me he was a member.
He understood and 23 years later, the miracle still continues. And that’s been my life for 23 years. I was born 23 years ago. And the sadness, these are tears of joy folks, because I have such a beautiful, blessed life. I have my daughter, I have a son, my ex-wife and I are friends. I love my parents and they did so well.
My brothers and I get along. My business is successful and all I do is the 12th step. I bring the message of hope to people who still suffer.
Carrie: I hope you’ve enjoyed revisiting these stories of hope with me for additional encouragement. There may be some that you missed because you weren’t particularly interested in the topic of that episode, and that’s fine.
So this is another great reason for us to be replaying some of these. It’s always encouraging to hear from you guys when you send us messages through the website at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. We have a contact form at the bottom of the page that you can fill out, and I do read those and either myself or my assistant responded to them.
We received an encouraging note recently from a listener who had just been going through a lot of struggles and needed some hope and found the podcast just randomly one night and just really benefited from it. So, I’m so glad that people are able to get the love, support, and encouragement from this show.
Christian Faith and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counseling in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the view of myself or By The Well Counseling Until next time, may be comforted by God’s great love for you.
In today’s episode, I’m joined by Kristen D. Boice, LMFT, a psychotherapist, coach, speaker, Close the Chapter Podcast Host. Kristen and I talk about how to set healthy boundaries:
Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 84. if you’re just finding our show, I am your host, Carrie Bock, and our podcast is really focused on reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. Today we’re really focused on that third goal as we do a follow-up episode on boundaries.
So back on episode 70, wee had an episode about What are Boundaries, and Why are They Important? with Erica Kesse. That was more of an ideological episode, more on the theory of boundaries, and this episode is going to be more practical. So I’m really excited to have found a guest who can. Walk us through the practicality of what it means to set boundaries.
I know that this is a very important topic for people who struggle with anxiety and something that I’m constantly working with clients on because when we don’t have healthy boundaries, we end up being, we take on too much and we end up becoming more anxious about it. It’s interesting. Kind of before we get into this conversation, I am in the season of No right now, which has been very interesting for me because.
I have had to say no to a lot of different things. I’ve said no to professional events and trainings. I have said no to personal meetings with people and it’s just reminded me how saying no to all of those things because in my season of life right now, I have a six-month-old. I have a husband with some health issues and some other family things going on that this has allowed me to say yes to the people and the priorities that are most important to me, even though sometimes it hurts to say no because some of the opportunities that are coming my way are really good and things that I want to do, and sometimes it’s just not the right season to do those things.
So today I have with me Kristen Boice. So Kristen, welcome to the show.
Kristen: Thanks Carrie for having me. And in your intro I was thinking this speaks to so many people to have the season of saying “no” so you can say yes to what matters the most in your life. And it’s not always easy.
Carrie: No, it’s not. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Kristen: So I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and I have a group private practice with 15 clinicians. We specialized in trauma, EMDR, and brain spotting here in the Indianapolis area. My passion is helping people feel centered in who they are, that it’s okay they have their own thoughts, feelings, opinions, and they’re able to have a voice without feeling guilt and shame over what they need, what they want. And having more clarity, confidence, compassion, calm in their life.
So that’s really what I feel passionate about helping people really find their center, find that anchor point within themselves so they can feel more confident in their decision-making and self-doubt.
I find a lot of people doubt even when they set a boundary or make a choice, and they’re like, “Ooh, are they gonna be upset with me? Did I make the right decision? Was that what I should?” The “should” Is that what I should have done? So that’s what I feel really passionate about. And then I have a podcast called Close the Chapter where we focus on closing, what doesn’t serve you and opening the door to possibilities.
Carrie: Good. I like all of that. That all sounds really great. 15 people is a pretty sizable group practice too. I’m sure that did not happen overnight. You have stuck the course and built the thing.
Kristen: That was definitely Holy Spirit-led. That was not me. I’m just the vessel and my team is very centered in that, and that’s really at the heart of what we do.
It’s we’re just the vessel to help people find healing. So it’s not one of those things that I went out and created. It kind of created itself, so to speak. I mean, yes, I’m managing it. Really, I never solicited one of the clinicians
Carrie: Wow.
Kristen: That’s all God-led. So it’s really been remarkable to be a part of it and it’s been an honor and a privilege to walk clients through the healing journey.
Understanding Boundaries and Their Importance
Carrie: Absolutely. So I’m curious for you, like when you know, like we were talking last episode in terms of identifying that a boundary needs to be set, like maybe an internal feeling of anxiety or anger, what internal cues like do you personally experience when you know like, “Okay, it’s time for me to set a boundary here.”
Kristen: My body will tell me the cue, so I might get a pit in my stomach. I might get that. Oh, I can see, for example, you have a family member that you know is gonna activate your nervous system and you can see them texting you or calling you, and I can immediately feel that in my nervous system, that butterfly in my stomach, or that adrenaline rush or that.
My body might even tense up in my shoulders or my jaw might get tight. Yeah. So my body is the first thing, my nervous system to tell me to check cuz it can zap your energy that if I’m not protecting that energy, that can wipe me out from being the mom I wanna be from being the partner, I want to be the wife, the leader of the team, the best clinician I wanna be.
If I’m putting my energy towards something that’s gonna zap. Yeah, so I’ve learned energy is so important and if I don’t honor that, then I don’t have it to give where it’s most important to me. Yeah, and that’s so relevant in terms of self-awareness of just us being tuned in to what our body is trying to communicate to us.
I really believe that God gives us that for a reason, just that internal sense to be the first. And I’m just curious, I know I’ve talked with clients who have said, I just don’t even feel like I have the right words or the right language because maybe boundaries were never modeled for them in their family or in other relationships.
Practical Steps to Setting Boundaries
Carrie: And what kind of help would you give those people in terms of like tone of voice and word choice that we want to use, like when we’re setting boundaries? This is the one thing I feel so passionate about. We’ll even do role play, like, okay, I’ll be like, You’ll be you. I’ll be the person you’re setting the boundary with so they can get more comfortable in their own nervous system to say it.
Kristen: So the first thing I recommend, kind of the first step is take a deep breath. Hmm, that’s good because we wanna anchor in and feel centered. So I like feeling your feet on the floor, kind of feeling yourself present in this space, in this time. So it might take three or four breaths to get kind of centered to get the courage to say what you wanna say, to get the clarity.
And I encourage people. The second thing is, if you’re nervous about it, to write out what you might wanna say, for example, So let’s say your mom is blowing up your phone, . You’re like, I love you. So I will say the acknowledgement sandwich. I love you and I can’t talk right now. I will text you when I have a moment, something like that.
And the “I love you and it’s not, I love you, but because the “but” kind of take it, erases, it kind of feels manipulative. So I like to do the acknowledgement piece first. You don’t always have to do that. Or let’s say someone invites you to do something at school and you’ll say, Thank you so much for asking.
And right now I can’t, let me know the next time and I’ll see if I have the. Or the time. So what you’re doing really is creating a positive on the front end and the back end for people. I’ve heard some people say this, I don’t know if they call it the compliment sandwich or the criticism sandwich, something like that.
I called the acknowledgement sandwich where you’re acknowledging that the person’s intention was pure on the other side, like they want, And it’s not always, but for example, if like the school wants you to volunteer for something, you can understand that they need it. Sure. I know you really need a volunteer and I so wish I had the time to help and unfortunately right now I don’t.
Thank you so much for asking that. Acknowledging that intention on the front end and setting the what you can and can’t do. That’s the boundary. What can and can’t I do. So it might even look like, thank you for asking for me to bring, I don’t know, xyz. I can’t bring that, but I can bring chips and salsa like so I’m saying what I can’t bring, like I can’t make a homemade dish right now and homemade brownies.
However, I’m more than happy to bring chips and salsa. So you can’t say I’m giving you kind of benign examples, but you can offer like, Here’s what I can do, here’s what I can’t do. Those are nice f. And the tone of voice. So if it’s more of a harder boundary, for example, it might be a family member might feel really activated or triggered by that family member and really taking the deep breath.
And if you cannot respond, where you’re gonna be more intense and maybe have more of an angry response. Where it’s, you’re not gonna be real regulated. I always recommend take a pause. When you do feel like you have the, you’re more centered in your response. Maybe you pray over your response, you feel more clear in your tone of voice texting so hard.
But if you’re saying it verbally, where you can soften your voice a little bit, you can still be clear and direct. People are afraid. I don’t, I don’t wanna be nasty. You don’t have to be nasty at all. I can be very loving, but very clear and direct in my boundary. So I know you really wanna connect right now cuz that’s why they’re texting you and I’m not available.
I will reach out when I have a moment and I’m not sure when that is, but I’ll reach back out when I have a moment. Or if you’re on the phone with somebody, let’s say they’re getting really intense on the other line and you can feel your nervous system kind of getting really activated. You’d say, I love you and I need to get off the phone right now.
Overcoming Challenges and Reaping the Benefits
Carrie: That’s good. So sometimes nasty. I’m just clear and sometimes you can plan your boundary setting if it’s an ongoing issue that you know that happens such as mom gets into rages on the phone, and then you can say, Okay mom, I just want you to know when if you start to escalate or if you start to raise your voice at me, I’m going to get off the phone.
Just so that you are aware of that, and then you can tell ’em kind of ahead of time and then when it happens in the moment, like you’ve already prepped the person, right? So then when it happens, it’s not a surprise to them anymore. You’ve already, then you’re just enforcing the boundary that you’ve already said.
Okay. You know, remember when we talked that if you started yelling, I was gonna get off the phone, I’m gonna get off the phone now going through the next thing I. A lot of times when people don’t have the confidence, they come, their boundary comes out like almost like they feel like a mouse is talking like, Oh, please don’t, Well maybe if you could not do this, and it’s this long drawn out thing.
What I’m hearing you say is really keep it short and more direct, so we don’t want anybody to miss what we’re trying to communicate to them in these situations. Just be short, clear. And one of the things I think that I really wanna emphasize on the back end is people think, well then they won’t be upset with me if I just say it a certain way.
If I just, And that’s when we go on and on and on cuz we’re trying to manage their response or their reaction or their emotions and we can’t. So when we go, okay, they may respond well and they may. and I can’t control how this is gonna land for the person. I can only manage how I say it and feel really good about how I said it and feel like I came with a regulated as much as I could, nervous system, and I said it in the most centered way I could.
Kristen: So what was my centered message? My centered message is It’s not okay. Maybe it’s not okay to yell at me and I’m gonna get off the phone. Now. We had, I kind of explained the ba, you don’t even have to say the word boundary. I explained if you start yelling, I’m gonna get off the phone. I love you and I’ll talk to you later.
It’s more your centered message and your centered in your nervous system. Those go hand in hand.
Carrie: And even, I think adults and children respond similarly because when we think about setting boundaries, a lot of times we think about that in terms of discipline with children, No, you’re not allowed to run in the house.
Those types of things. And. If you give this long, drawn-out explanation about now if you run and this could happen, that could happen, and your message of what you’re trying to convey can actually get lost in the shuffle, rather than just saying, This is the line in the sand, and I think adults are similar.
I mean, would you agree with that? Like just respond similarly to the message? For sure. I think one of the most important things is if we aren’t clear and direct, the person has no idea. I’m working with couples especially, they’re like, Well, you were, I know you’re really trying to be helpful, which is nice.
Kristen: That’s a good front-end kind of acknowledgement. But then they go on and on and on and then they’ll say, And I just wish we could have a little more connection time. And I’m like, “Okay, what are you exactly saying?” Oh, you want the person to put the phone down when you’re at dinner, turn the phones off so you can have more connection time.
So that’s more clear and direct rather than making it this big, broad invitation where the other person feels so overwhelmed and lost and not clear on what you’re saying. So it can be helpful to the other person’s nervous system, even though they may not like it to be more specific. Then they can decide whether they wanna do that or.
So if someone says, I would love to have where we put our phones away for dinner, would you be willing to do that? And they say No, then you’ve got it. Then you have to deal with your own feelings around that.
Carrie: Yeah. I think this is good because I know that I’ve worked with a lot of women who think that they are communicating something to their spouse.
And I won’t understand it, what they’re trying to communicate that they’re saying. And I’m like, Okay, so let’s boil this down to like, what is it that you actually want? Knowing what you actually want can be a really good precursor to setting a boundary or communicating with someone else about something.
And that I think you can kind of queue in just being more mindful internally. What is it that I would like in this relationship? I want more connection. Okay. So if you had more connection, what would that look like? Oh, he wouldn’t be texting on the phone during dinner. Okay. Well, that’s a pretty clear behavior that could be changed by someone that you’re asking.
I think sometimes If a man hears, I want more connection. Well, I mean, that could. 20 different things, you know, what does that mean? So I think that this is a really good concept for people to, when they’re creating the boundary. I like what you said earlier, and I wanted to circle back around to it and not miss it.
You talked about writing down what you want to say, and I definitely have made some bullet points on a post-it note for things that I wanted to make sure that I communicated to people in my life, especially when I knew they were gonna be hard, heavy, emotional conversations. Sometimes you can’t be a hundred percent regulated, you know you’re going to be nervous in that conversation or you know it’s gonna be hard.
And you may forget things because of that emotional reactivity you were talking about. So just having those one or two points, that’s kind of like the bottom line message that you wanna come across with, I think is so valuable and beneficial.
Kristen: Yes. I’ve worked with several clients where they had an emotionally unavailable parent.
What does that mean? Like they didn’t, the parent wasn’t available to acknowledge their feelings or hear what they had to say. Really be attuned to them. So I had one client and what I had typically as I’ll do a letter writing exercise where you’re writing, this is not to give them, this is for you to get clarity on what are you wanting specifically from like what are you hoping to get out of this conversation?
Right? Yeah. So they write the letter and then we do three bullets of what are you asking for? What are the three central messages, what are your centered messages that you are trying to communicate? And you put it in the three bullet points. And then when you go into the conversation, it’s okay to take the letter.
It’s okay to take the bullet point, post it. It’s okay to take those or put it in your phone to have something to re. Because your brain will then cue when we get anxious, sometimes we can go and fight-flight, freeze Fawn. Fawn is that people-pleasing response or even flop, or you kind of just faint, like your nervous system gets overwhelmed.
This can help you kind of cue the brain on, Oh yes, this is what I was trying to say. You feel more confident and clear. And what you’re communicating, and that can be really helpful when you’re having hard conversations or trying to communicate a boundary, what’s okay, what’s not okay with you, or what you’re wanting or needing. It’s more clear and specific.
Carrie: Yeah. So I wanted to go through a couple scenarios and I think you’ve already gave us some great examples and language and talked about the acknowledgement sandwich. So I’m gonna give you a couple maybe that are hard, more in terms of relationally, right? Like if someone we don’t know ask us to do so.
Might be a little bit easier to say no to it versus when someone asks something of us that we really want to please that person, or we have a close relationship and we’re afraid that somehow that relationship might get threatened if we set a boundary. So I’ll read you one of these and then just, I’d love for you to just respond how you would respond.
Kristen: That sounds wonderful.
Setting Boundaries: Saying No to Close Friend’s Request
Carrie: So let’s just say that your close friend asked you to help with the school fundraiser coming up next month, and now this is not just showing up for it, but it’s planning, there’s preparation, and then actually showing up. And so due to family and work commitments, you don’t feel like you can add one more thing on your plate right now. What do you tell?
Kristen: Thank you so much for asking for me to help with the fundraiser. I know you’ve got a lot on your plate. I so wish I could help and unfortunately, I can’t right now. Let me know in the future if you need help and maybe at that time I’ll be, I’ll have more bandwidths.
Carrie: Good. I still feel like you like me when you said that.
Kristen: Oh, good because maybe that’s feel connected.
Carrie: Yes. Like being able, to keep the relational connection because if someone’s asking you to do something, They know that you would be a good person for that. Probably like maybe you’ve done fundraisers in the past, or maybe you are a person that they know is going to show up and actually get the work done that needs to be done. So that is somewhat of an honor to be asked to do something like that.
Kristen: It is, and it feels good to us if we’re honest. A lot of times it feels good that we’re chosen because maybe our inner child says, Well, I was always picked last in gym class, or no one ever wanted to sit with me. And so that little part of you inside says, “Oh, that feels so nice to be picked.”
And yet we know we don’t have the energy or the time cuz it’ll take us away from what we want, need to pour into, which might be our child, our newborn, our husband that needs our attention, our friend, our another family member, or even yourself, right? Maybe you’re just at a burnout. And you’re feeling really run down and your tank is empty, you don’t have it to offer.
And that’s okay. We are so conditioned to be givers. And when the tank is low, I’m not at my best self. And then that brings shame of I’m not a good enough mom, or I’m not good enough wife, or I’m not a good enough boss. Fill in the blank. And. I don’t have the energy to really kind of recover cuz I’m sleep deprived, I’m exhausted, whatever.
I’m giving out too much and my tank is too low, so then I don’t have it to give what matters most to me. Yeah. So it’s so important that we are giving ourselves permission to identify when your tank is low, A boundary is necessary..
Carrie: I interviewed a cancer survivor recently who talked about accepting your limitations, but also not being defined by those limitations. Finding a balance and just respecting his energy level and what he has to give, and he has to say no to a lot of different things due to still being on a maintenance dose of chemotherapy and so forth. It was interesting to have that conversation because I think that it’s hard and somewhat painful sometimes for us to admit our limitations, to admit that we have a low level of bandwidth, or that we’re exhausted right now, or because of our mental health struggles, we’re not able to do something that’s a hard admittance sometimes for people.
Kristen: It is because the shame tells us you should do it. You should be a giver. You should be a good Christian, you should be a good person, you should be a good mom, you should be a good volunteer. The shame stories that we have and the conditioning block us from actually taking care of ourselves. Because once we get to the body shut down, we are really depleted. If we are getting sick, we are getting run down like we are. The body has tried to give us signals all along, but we’ve pushed through and now the body is saying, screaming at us. I am begging you to set these boundaries. I am begging you to listen to me, that I can’t keep going.
But the shame says, “Oh, but what are they gonna think if I say no?” See, the shame stories are big. Yes. And they block us from having the healthy boundaries many times. Absolutely. So watching the shame stories though should, and that guilt really is an invitation for us to go, Okay, I need to kind of regroup here.
I need to take a pause. And sometimes taking a pause to give you some time to come up with how you’re gonna respond is okay. Thank you for asking. Let me check my calendar and I’ll get back to you. So that pause can give you the space to then reenter and come back with. Thank you so much for asking. I wish I had the time. Unfortunately, I don’t Keep me in mind for next time, or you don’t even have to say, keep me in mind for next.
Balancing Work and Personal Boundaries: The Challenge of Saying No
Carrie: I have to admit that we’re gonna start talking about work boundaries right now, and I admit that I’m my own boss and I imagine you’re your own boss and have been for some time right now. But I have had many bosses in my day.
Don’t be fooled. I remember what it’s like to have a boss. Don’t worry. And I think a lot of times people feel like I can’t set a boundary at work because my job is my livelihood and I cannot threaten my livelihood. Will you talk to us about that piece a little bit? Because I feel like we are in the day and age where employers will just push and push and push the envelope to burn people out and sometimes don’t care.
Kristen: This is a whole different world now with the phones and we are mobile. Yes. So the boundaries feel very diffuse and like we feel like we should respond to the email right away, or they’re gonna think they’re, I’m not working, or they’re gonna think I’m not doing my job. So there’s a lot of fear in setting with authority figure, so to speak, where it feels like your livelihood is tied to your performance. And oftentimes I’ll work a lot with clients on, okay, let’s really take a look at what’s realistic for you to be able to do and what isn’t. And the lines are very blurry there, right? Because they feel like they should be doing all of this. And then we’ll walk into, okay, what are you really wanting to say to your boss? pretend like, or I’m your boss. What would you really wanna say to your boss? And it’s. So their brains kind of have to fight flight or freeze response or fawn, right? like we talked about, that survival state response, that they don’t feel like they have a voice. And so we’ll work on, okay, what if we said something along these lines, and this is just an example.
I am so grateful for this job. I love working here, and maybe you don’t. So you have to tweak this based on what’s real and true for you. So it’s authentic. We don’t want it to be inauthentic. Authenticity is good. Yes. So important. And I’m just feeling this sense of overwhelm and here and be specific.
Here’s what I think come up with solutions. What I think would be helpful is if we. Here’s what I think I can still meet deadlines with, and here’s what I’m not sure. I’m not gonna be able to meet this deadline realistically. So I come up with a solution. Here’s some ideas on how I could have so and so really help me with this piece or that piece.
Oftentimes we get into, I’ve gotta do it. Without thinking about other solutions or options. Yes, that’s very true. Not knowing how to delegate or how to work as a team or ask for help. Those are all very important skills to have in these situations. Well, we can say I feel overwhelmed and I kind of feel like I’m knocking at the door of burnout.
Overcoming Shame and Guilt: Setting Boundaries for Self-Care
Those are important conversations now that really a lot of companies are talking about because their employees are burned out. And is this a healthy environment? This is the other thing sometimes we have to explore. Is this a healthy environment for you? If not, and this can be a journey, this is overnight.
Do we start looking for other options that might be a healthier fit for you? Yeah. That you’re gonna be able to have some limits. And so at five o’clock you’re. So some folks just need a healthier environment and it depends on, So it depends on the health of the organization too. So if you have this conversation and it’s not received well, then we have to process on the back end, what comes up for you?
Is this the best fit for you? Is this the best job for you? Now, that’s not always. Sometimes that’s what is a great job, and it is a great. And it’s worth exploration to say, what is my fear if I speak up? A lot of times it’s, I’m gonna lose my job. I’m not gonna get the promotion. They’re gonna think I can’t handle it.
I’m just naming a few, right? Sure. They’re afraid of rejection, they’re afraid of failure. And when we can process what’s really at the root of that? Then we start having a voice. So there’s an important concept here. I think when we talk about boundaries, it’s not talked about often that is essential. And as therapists, you’ve heard of this before, but we look at the human developmental continuum.
I’m gonna throw this out there cause I think it can really be helpful for people when they’re looking at workplace boundaries or boundaries in a family system or in a marriage or in a partnership. There’s a concept called individuation and separation. Okay, This is differentiation.
Boundaries in Family Dynamics: Codependency and Setting Limits
So in a family system, if you’re allowed to have your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions, and it’s okay, it’s celebrated. It’s a normal part of human development. It’s not a threat to the system. The system can say it’s okay. This is normal for you to question things, for you to kind of integrate what your own thoughts and feelings and opinions about it to land on, what resonates for you.
If we weren’t allowed to do that in a family system, we are gonna struggle with boundaries. That makes a lot of sense. So if we weren’t allowed to differentiate ourselves from the, like the thoughts and feelings and opinions of the family, you weren’t allowed to have your own kind of questioning and exploration and question things, and you could do that in the family and you could feel differently about something and that was okay.
It wasn’t a threat to the system. You’re gonna feel more confident having a boundary. Yes. If you didn’t get that and it was, which a lot of people didn’t right, that it was threatening to the system. You were disciplined, you were punished, you were ashamed, you were not allowed to kind of explore your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions.
It’s gonna be very scary to say how you feel. So a lot of times what we work on is being able to have your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions without. Threat. Like you’re scared that you’re going into a survival state and trying to fawn or people please, Right? Or you shut down and you just go in a freeze.
If someone gets upset with you, you have, you’re, we’re building that window of tolerance that to tolerate that it’s okay if they have a different opinion. It’s not okay if they yell at you, but it’s okay if they get sad over something that you’re like, Ooh. It’s okay. You’re not responsible for managing that emotion.
So in the workplace, when you can go, it’s okay for me to say, this is what I can do and this is what I can’t do. Yeah. We then have more centeredness and a voice. So that individuation process is very important to explore what we set boundaries.
Carrie: Yes, absolutely. In the sense of, you know, a lot of family dynamics.
There’s a level of codependency, not just in homes with people who have substance abuse issues, but in other homes as well, where it was like, well, we had to do. Please mom at all costs or please dad at all costs. And then if we went against anything on that, there was maybe harsh punishment because it was Dad’s way or the highway.
I find that in those situations, yes, boundaries are very difficult and a lot of times I work with my clients on. Kind of like goals of adolescence maybe that they never achieved. Because I really feel like what you’re talking about is part of a goal of adolescence is like you go out, you explore the world, you decide what you like and don’t like.
You decide what things you wanna take from your family and what things you don’t. And in some situations, That was not allowed. Kids were very sheltered or shamed for having a difference of opinion or thinking on their own. This is definitely very relevant. So let’s say that your boss asked you to take on a large project for work.
It’s not a requirement. But it definitely would help. Your career might say, you aced this project, it would give you a promotion. You’re also in the process of caring for your elderly mother. Don’t feel you have the mental and emotional energy to give your best work to this project, require additional work hours, additional stress, and you don’t want to disappoint your boss and are afraid of maybe hurting your career or not getting that promotion.
Kristen: This is so big to unpack So many, lots of layers. Lots of layers, and it depends on what do you want, Like how badly do you want the promotion On a zero to 10, I have people do a lot of scaling so they can get more clarity on their internal needs in wants. So I’ll go on a zero to 10. 10 being, I’ll do whatever it takes.
A hundred percent. I want the promotion zero. Nah, don’t really want it at. So sometimes we don’t, even if we weren’t allowed to differentiate, we don’t even explore. Why do I want that? It’s like the first step. Yeah. Or are we doing an automatic response, like that’s the next step. I need the promotion and that’s like my next thing.
I’m not even looking at, do I really want it? Why do I really want it? Can I even handle it? So let’s say you do really want it just to play this out. Let’s say you really want promotion and you’re still taking care of your elderly mother. Here’s the bottom line you’re gonna need.
Carrie: Yes,
Choosing Priorities: Balancing Career Goals and Caregiving Responsibilities
Kristen: I am much more rooted in reality and the reality rather than the fantasy of what we think we can do.
The reality is you won’t be able to do both well, I mean, you won’t be able to do it all. We know this. It’s a fantasy. If I think I can do it all, something’s gonna give and it’s gonna be my health, it’s gonna be, I’m gonna feel resentful towards my mom. The job I’m gonna go to burnout. So I think the first thing when we look at that is, am I willing to ask for help?
Yes. If I’m not, I’m probably not gonna be able to do this promotion well, and it’s probably gonna be a cost to me. So I think the first thing is asking yourself, what do I want? Am I willing to ask for help? And let’s say you are. Let’s say you’re like, Yes, I can do it. Okay. I think being transparent with the boss and saying, Here’s, and I know this is feeling very, I’m about authenticity, requires transparency.
And that the truth self set you free. Now it’s a healthy work environment. They’re gonna go, Oh, I, that makes sense to me. If you say something like, I really, really would love to take this promotion. This is something I’m passionate about, I really am excited about, and I wanna let you know I’m taking care of my elderly mom.
And so there may be times where I might have an emergency and I’ve gotta buzz out, or I have to take care of my. I’m going to be seeing if I can get some help with my mom. I wanted to let you know up front to be transparent. So my nervous system then goes, Okay, I’ve told them up front. I was transparent up front about my what’s going on so they know, and maybe they’re not comfortable giving you the promotion at that time.
That’s a risk you run. But transparency leads to. If we’re hiding, we’re maneuvering. We’re trying to act like we have it all together. That will lead you down the road to exhaustion. Yeah. It will lead you down to the road to unfulfillment and dissatisfaction and resentment. Every time I’m like, play the movie out, I’ll say something to a client like, I’ll go, Okay, play the movie out.
Like you get the promotion and you’re taking care of your elderly mom. Tell me what you see in the movie. They’re like, I can’t do it. I’m burned out, exhausted. I’m like, Okay, so what would you need in order to take the promotion and take care of your mom? So we get more clarity when we play the movie out of what is real for me, What will work for me, what won’t work for me.
And now we have to work on the courage to say it out loud. That’s the hardest part, typically. Mm-hmm. is saying it out loud cause we’re scared we’re gonna, then they won’t consider us for the promotion. But real in the reality of things, when you’re transparent, builds trust, transparency builds trust. It’s whenever there’s a betrayal, we know that transparency is essential to rebuild that trust over.
So when you’re with a boss and you’re transparent, the boss goes, Oh, I really appreciate you sharing that with me. Yeah. If you have a healthy boss, right? I mean, this is mm-hmm. . So there’s a lot of layers to this to consider when setting a boundary. Yeah, for sure. And I’ve definitely been in environments where I was transparent and it was used against me, and of course that made me pull back and not want to be transparent.
So recognizing what your relationship is with your supervisor. How that information is gonna be utilized. I do find that people are much more understanding when we’re upfront about things versus when we’re not. We don’t have to overshare. That’s the other key. It’s you don’t have to give every detail.
It’s a high level, I’m taking care of my EL elderly mom, and if it’s not received well, that’s information for us. , Yes. Evaluate whether the long term, this is gonna be a healthy place of employment. And that’s key information. So like you said, it’s used against you, which has the, which happens, which definitely happens.
Is this gonna be a long term healthy environment for you to continue to work in? Right. And that’s scary for people to think about changing, Right. Their place of employment. And it can also be empowering when they do decide to make a change, whatever that looks.
Carrie: I was in a, what I would consider a toxic work environment for a period.
And what I realized in that process was there were a couple times they would vacillate between, We love you, we hate you. And when they loved me, they loved me. And when they hated me, they hated me. But when they were on the downswing, they would say, Well, we’re just not really sure that this job is a good fit for you.
And I think that I took that inadequacy shame piece, like, Oh, I’m not enough. I’m not living up to the expectations. And it’s so interesting to be out of that environment and to be on the other side now saying they were right. That job wasn’t a good fit for me and there’s nothing wrong with that. It just didn’t fit the fullness of who I was and what I wanted and how I wanted to show up for clients that wasn’t me.
And it’s okay that it wasn’t. Made for somebody else. I could see you even lit up. Like the freedom you felt like they were. Right. That wasn’t the right job for me. It was stifling you. It was like it wasn’t expanding you. Yes. Full gifts was stifling you. Yeah. But it’s hard sometimes when you’re in the middle of it, and I think that’s why talking to someone like a healthy friend, family where a counselor can help you process through some of these things to know like, this is what they’re saying and this is what I’m sensing, and what’s your objectivity on it? Cause you can feel in those type of toxic work environments where the expectations are too high, sometimes you can start to feel a little crazy or inadequate like, Well, I mean I see other people maybe doing this or they’re expecting that I do this, so I must able to do it and that’s just not always the case.
Kristen: Yes. And I think talking through it, cuz sometimes our work environments mirror our family dynamics that we grew up in. Yeah. So it’s hard to see clearly cuz we’re reenacting almost like the same system we grew up in. We just don’t know. Cause it just seems normal to us.
It seems familiar until you start doing your own healing. And then you’re like, Oh, I recreated the same family system dynamic at work. Oh, and I did that in my other romantic relationship. Yes. And there’s the light bulb. That’s why that self-awareness piece and understanding families, not to blame anybody cuz that’s not the idea.
The idea is empowerment to go, I can break the chain of this dynamic. I can see now the parallel between my work environment and my home environ. And how I put myself in that same role and didn’t recognize it. So I wanted to kinda shift gears. I know we’re cramming a lot into this episode. It’s so good. I know that Christians a lot of times struggle feeling like I have to say yes, I’ve gotta help people.
God wants me to be giving. God wants me to be hospitable. And how would you really encourage these individuals that it is okay to say no sometimes. And you’re still a good Christian. I love the and in both. So I can be a loving, caring, compassionate person. As long as I’m having boundaries, I can still be that, but I might be resentful.
I might be worn out. I might be angry because now I’m giving and I might take on a martyrdom role. God doesn’t want us to, like, you’ll have some people, maybe your family system that they were like, I’ve done everything I’ve given, I’ve given here, I’ve given there, and now they’ve taken on this. Look at me.
I’ve done everything role. And they feel bitter and resentment, and it comes in between their relationships that matter the most, Maybe. With their child, maybe with their partner, maybe with their church group. It doesn’t, so that can lead. If we don’t have boundaries, it’s hard to be our best-giving self cuz I’m giving, and there’s resentment tied to it.
We wanna be giving because we are led to be like, Oh, I want to do that because I feel filled up. I now have enough to pour out and I don’t expect anything. There is no ties to needing anything back. I’m doing it because it’s pure agape love, like I’m just letting it flow from my soul. If I’m doing it out of a, I should be doing this consistently, you’re gonna be on the road to resentment and expectations or resentments waiting to happen.
We are just going to feel a level of burnout. And resentment that doesn’t feel good to us, and we’re gonna be like, Why am I even doing this? No one cares. No one even acknowledges me. And when we get to a thank you is wonderful. And I love a good, and, and we don’t wanna do it to get a thank you. Yes, that’s true.
It’s icy on the cake like it feels. That’s why I love acknowledgement cuz it feels so good to our nervous system cuz we all wanna feel seen, appreciated, understood, and loved so much. And when we are filling our tanks up, we can give that out freely and it feels so amazing to just give it without any expectation back icy on the cake.
Carrie: So tell us a little bit about where to find you and what you have going on.
Kristen: So close The chapter podcast is probably the best place to find me. And then on Instagram and Facebook, you know, all the socials at Kristen d Boyce. And then if you want a free journal that I love to give out to my clients and it’s free, you can reuse it. Beause I’m a big journaler and I believe in it in terms of getting clarity from the Holy Spirit. Like it just is so powerful to get centered at kristendvoice/free resources and it will be emailed to your in. And what I love about that is I love how God gave us the breath to kind of come back.
Yeah. Reground us in nature and all these gifts. And if we can come back to ourselves and listen to the leading and have clarity, that is the leading, that is in our fear talking. That’s the Holy Spirit talking. Our nervous systems are freed. And there’s so much healing that can take place when that happens.
So I’m a firm believer in journaling. I love it. That’s why I wanna give it to everybody. I’m like here, cuz everybody’s like, Well, I don’t really like journaling, and what am I gonna write about? And this helps kind of guide the process.
Carrie: That’s awesome. I like that. So since this podcast is called Hope for Anxiety and O C D, we like our guests to share a story of hope at the end. A time where you received hope from God or another person.
Kristen: There’s so many. Really what came through to me when I was praying over this question, I was thinking about a client just came through, and I’m not gonna give specifics, but when I work with people that you feel like, how are they ever gonna recover from this loss or this trauma?
And you think, how can they get up in the morning? How are they gonna move when you’ve lost all your children due to a tragedy? How are you going to ever recover from that? And I’ve seen over and over and over again how God like pours into the pain. And once we work and acknowledge the pain, God can tend to it and walk alongside us in it.
I always think like Jesus walking hand in hand with us going, I know honey, I know it. And I know this is so painful and you can’t understand it right now. Yeah. And I’m right here with you just holding the pain for you. And that’s the privilege of seeing God’s transformation was some of the most painful things anyone could ever go through.
And the second piece that came to me is as a community, we had a school shooting back in, Oh yeah. It was several years ago. No one would’ve ever expected that to happen in our backyard. And as a community, it opened us up in such a way for healing. For us to come together, love one another, and acknowledge each other’s pain and fear.
Yeah, and just so there was so much transformation that happened in a whole community. And as a result, I do a, every other week, this is about me, but as a result, not of just the shooting, but at the pandemic. Mental Health Monday with our mayor on Facebook, and now we’re talking about mental health. We’re talking about all these hard topics that’s transformation.
Like here we are trying to hold the pain and acknowledge people’s pain in the midst of all of this. And we came together despite trauma and tragedy. So those are the two things that came to me when you were asking that question.
Carrie: Mental health Monday with the mayor. That’s a lot of ems, but I like it.
It is. It is. We don’t say with the mayor. I just was adding that piece. It’s just called Mental Health Mondays.
Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your wisdom. I think this is gonna be very practical for people who are looking to set boundaries and then also identifying throughout.
We kind of identified some things that get in the way of people are struggling with anxiety of setting boundaries.
Kristen: Thank you so much for having me on, and the work you’re doing.
Steve and I wanted to share some personal updates with you as we reached another milestone in our marriage.
How becoming parents changed us and affected our marriage
Our child-care setup
Staying positive while battling a rare chronic condition
Relying on faith and finding blessings amidst life’s challenges
Transcript
Carrie: Welcome to Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 81. I am your host, Carrie Bock, and I am here with my husband, Steve Bock. Say hello.
Steve: Hello, this is actually our second-anniversary episode. We came on episode 10 to talk about dating. That was right before we got married. We sat on the floor in the closet. Now the recording set-up is a little bit better but still in the closet, we are still in the closet. That’s a dream for the next house is we have a place to put the podcast studio. But until then, here we are.
A Long-Awaited Diagnosis
And we also did episode 50, which was on our first year of marriage. You talking about we had just gotten back from Vanderbilt, discussing, trying to figure out what was going on with your eyes and all of that. All of the tests that they did on you six hours and really didn’t find the results. Now we’re here. We’re gonna be married for two years. Yes. Yeah. And this will come right out shortly after our anniversary. So you finally got a diagnosis as of last week?
Steve: That’s correct. Finally. Yeah. It took a year and a half. I think something like that. After several visits to several places, long story short, we got a diagnosis. Knew that something was wrong, but did not know what, and a diagnosis is good in one sense, because you now know what you’re fighting against and then a little scary in another sense because you know what you’re fighting against.
So yeah. But yes, we got a diagnosis, which is, let’s see, I’ve been practicing on this one, cuz it’s a long, long name. First time I heard it, I went do what and I had to look it up, but the abbreviated version of it would be SCA, which is Spinocerebellar ataxia
Carrie: Good job.
Steve: And for the record, that is the first time I’ve said that correctly without having to look at it first. But yes, I’ve been working on that. I don’t know why that’s so difficult to say, but it is. Yes,
Carrie: Yes it is. You had been referred to a neurologist and then specialty neurologist back up at Vanderbilt and they were the ones to figure out that this actually wasn’t an eye issue. This was a neurological issue affecting your cerebellum. And part of that was you started to have balance issues that got worse progressively. Right. And that was like one indicator that we knew. “Wait a minute, what else is going on here?”
Steve: And the eye issue was secondary.
Carrie: Yeah. And this is a genetic condition that we have no idea about.
Steve: There’s I think three ways that you can get it, but we think that it’s genetic because the other two options, and I can’t even remember what they are off the top of my head, but they don’t match up. Exactly. So it could be one of those, but I don’t think so. Mm-hmm yes. It’s genetic. I don’t know where to look. The family tree was. I don’t know where to go with that because it only goes back so far for me. I can tell you who’s who to a certain point, but I don’t know their health situation at all.
Carrie: And as far as we know, none of them had this.
Steve: No. We had some other things going on. Mm. Yeah. Lou Gehrig’s and Alzheimer’s, but not this.
Carrie: Recognizing that this is a chronic condition, something that they can treat symptoms for, but there is no cure for right. What was it like to get that news?
Steve: Somewhat shocking, somewhat not. Initially, we thought when we just thought it was the eyes we thought it was, if I’m saying this right Leber’s disease because I also had the symptoms for that.
Some but that, I don’t think there’s a cure for that either. And so with thinking about that for some time, when they told me that again, we kind of, weren’t sure about that one and that was kind of a, eh, maybe not, but it mentally prepared me for the concept of having something that’s not curable. Mm-hmm and just because it’s not curable.
That doesn’t mean that I’m going to die tomorrow. There’s no guarantee of how long anyone lives for that matter, but that’s true. Very true. Also when this type of ataxia, there are 40 plus variance of it. So some of those start at childhood, some of those start later in life. Some people live to be somewhat older. There’s no way to know. And until we get further along, we don’t have enough to go on to know exactly which one that I would.
Carrie: Yeah, I think that’s the hardest part about it for me is that there are so many unknowns. They really can’t tell us anything about how this course is going to go. We’ve even heard, you know, Hey, you could plateau and not decline.
Right? We’ve heard some people decline more rapidly than others and one hopeful. That was made. Was that because it has taken you so long to show these level of symptoms that most likely your decline would be slow? Sure. In a sense, the past is a predictor of the future. That does give us some hope.
It’s hard for me not knowing if our daughter has inherited this. Right. And whether or not she will be affected by it later in life. They won’t test her because they want that to be. Her decision when she turns 18. So as long as she doesn’t show any symptoms prior to she won’t be tested, unless she decides to be through genetic counseling and so forth, that is a hard piece because when we were looking at, you know, is this disease or not Li’s disease actually has a very much quicker onset than the symptoms that you were experiencing. People tend to be legally blind pretty quickly with that, right?
Steve: That only runs through your mother’s side. So in that case, and it affects mostly, I think all males, so comes from your mother affects the males that made me feel a little better for her. Now I do the math in my head and I think of how many family members I have.
And I think, well, I’m not good at stating the odds on any given thing, but I would have to think that the odds are a little better for her only in the sense that none of my family has shown anything like this. so that would tell me maybe it’s skipped so many generations. I don’t know, but that gives me some hope.
It’s a tricky one for sure. And it’s scary. Yeah. In a lot of ways, honestly. Am I scared? No, I don’t know that I am trying to deal with it. That’s where the focus is. What measures do you take for balance? And then we’ve worked on that and that’s kind of where my focus.
Carrie: Yeah. And I just appreciate it, I think that you have had a sense of humor about the whole thing. Tell them what you asked me today,
Steve: Which one? Naming the cane?
Carrie: Yeah.
Steve: Well, I thought of a couple of names. I think the first one that I asked you was what if we named it able. Because, you know, Cain and Abel, if you know your Bible, if you don’t, well, you’re gonna have to look that up and find it and learn it.
That’s a good story, but yes, I wanted to name it Abel. And then the second one, I think that we may have chosen was Walkie or the assistant but that just, I don’t know. I can’t imagine being in a restaurant, losing the cane and going where’s the assistant , you know, that just, I don’t know that that’s gonna work out well. Although, I don’t know that where’s walkie is gonna be any better. They’ll be looking for a dog or something. But anyway, we thought about, you know, submitting it to the Wally show to see if they would name the cane, but what would they name it? Yeah. If you have any good names for the cane, you can write into the show and that’s a Christian radio show.
Carrie: Yes,
Steve: Yeah. Where they try to name it for those who aren’t familiar with that
Parenting and the Joy of a New Baby
Carrie: We mainly wanted to update people on that, but then also shift gears and talk about our second year of marriage had a lot of joys to it and had some sorrows, but also our greatest joy of course, was having our daughter who is now sleeping in the crib. We had to wait till she fell asleep.
Steve: Yes. The FOMO is real. Is that a phrase? It ought to. Yes, I think so. Yeah. She definitely has a fear of missing out
Carrie: And she definitely feels like has been teething forever. Yes. I did not realize how much of a labor-intensive process it was to get teeth in your mouth before having a child.
What has it been like for you becoming a parent? How has that affected you and changed you?
Steve: Oh, goodness. I have always been a person who likes routine and a person who has had some structure. I get up early in the morning. I brush my teeth. I do certain things in order, I get my breakfast, get my coffee, give everything in order.
And everyone that knows me, knows that well, have a baby goodbye routine. Pretty much. Yeah. And the thing you have to do with a baby is what form a routine. So it’s difficult, but you know, I learned to work with the. And be prepared for any interruption because it, it happens constantly. When I was trying to make my routine work, I was constantly annoyed with the idea that I couldn’t get anything done.
And then we got some patterns going and I learned routines and what worked with her now I can actually get things done, but having the baby definitely changed my world completely. And honestly for the better, definitely. I wouldn’t trade her for anything in the world. She is just absolutely wonderful. Always happy, always smiling and sticks her tongue out at me a lot, which is just kind of funny. yeah. So it’s definitely changed me. It’s been a good experience, but getting out even to do something is like mowing the grass. If she’s fussy and having a bad day. I may have to put that off a little longer because you have things to do too.
We both have to share that. And so you just learn, you know, if your mowing day is always it on this day at this time. Well, if you have a child, you can kiss that goodbye, but it’s been good.
Carrie: I would say that if you do it right, it helps you realize how much you have to give and how much you have to sacrifice what you want for the sake of your child.
And it’s helped me really learn to let go of some control. I think that that’s something that I still struggle with, helped me learn to go with the flow a lot more and just kind of take things as they come. There were definitely some early days that were really, really hard. She was amazing for about the first three weeks.
And then she started cluster feeding. I was exhausted. She had gas and probably about that week three through, I don’t know, week seven or week 10, it was just, I thought, how in the world am I ever gonna be able to go back to work? I took three months off. And fortunately, right around the time I went back to work, she started sleeping more through the night. So that was been a blessing thing.
Steve: And she is a great child. Like all children, you know, she has her moments and it’s nice now that she’s sleeping through the. It was difficult when she wasn’t. And I would say when she doesn’t get her naps throughout the day. Oh my goodness. That’s a difficulty for starters. I miss my nap when she doesn’t.
Transitioning to Stay-at-Home Parenthood
Carrie: We have a unique situation childcare-wise too, because I stayed home for three months with her, for maternity leave, gave my clients kind of alternative people to see if they needed to check in with somebody or see someone for that time period. And then as. We were in that process of looking at daycares.
And I had looked at daycares when I was pregnant, put myself on several waiting lists. Middle Tennessee is just exploding. Booming places are short staffed, you know, right now. And it was hard to. Find a daycare that was a quality place that had an opening for an infant because, you know, the ratios are so much lower too for that age group, far as they can only have four infants per one adult.
And at some point very early in her life, I’d say probably within the first month, I just looked at you one day and, and we were both sitting there and I just said, you know, will you pray about staying at home with her? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you remember that?
Steve: I do. And you know, my first thought was, I just don’t see myself as a stay-at-home dad.
I’ve always been, go, go, go, gotta work. Like if you’re only working one job, something’s wrong with you? No, I do not think that any longer, but I used to bit of a workaholic. And so for you to ask me that I thought, wait a minute. So I’ll be home with the baby. Not that, that isn’t a lot of work. It is, but being stuck in the house just didn’t seem like me.
Yeah. And then I decided to do it because of health situations and financially it made sense. Mm-hmm and also I got to thinking, you know, we can raise this child with the values that we have and we want, so after I got to thinking about it, it was kind of a no brain. Why wouldn’t I do this? I thought about how many children grow up without a dad?
Yeah. Or dad’s just too busy because he’s working so often. And I thought, you know, I can be that dad that’s there for, so not that I’m trying to be the hero, but I want her to have her best life possible. So it was a no-brainer after that I had to do it. Yeah. And I have no regrets. I wouldn’t change a thing.
Carrie: I think when you’re an older parent, it’s like you have more of the mental and emotional capacity for the child, but less of the physical capacity. Yes. We’re just both like, “Ah, I’m so tired.”
Steve: Yes. There are days I’m like, I am just, I don’t even feel like eating dinner. I just wanna go to bed, but it’s good.
Carrie: Yeah, we really evaluated it and looked at how much working full time was affecting your health. And you were getting more headaches from looking at the computer screen. You were exhausted at the end of the day. And we thought, well, you know, you’re really gonna be working to pay for daycare and. what sense is that we were able to get some health insurance and that was an answer to prayer for sure.
Steve: Definitely
Carrie: That worked out. And then it was like, okay, once that piece was in, you were like, what am I gonna put in my notice? And you were excited about kind of the new venture. Absolutely. It was harder for me going back to work and really trusting that you were gonna have things taken care of?
I think because I had just been so focused on her for so long and then having to switch gears into focusing on my business, rebuilding things, finding out which clients wanted to come back and which didn’t. and I will tell those of you who do not know. So I came back from maternity leave on June 1st.
This summer was probably the slowest summer on record. And summer is typically a slower time of the year for therapists because people are gone on vacation. You know, kids are at home from school, people are busier and it’s sunny outside and they. Go outside to the lake and have a good time. Whereas the winter months, times in October or in February, tend to be a little bit busier than the summertime.
So it was rough in the beginning trying to build a caseload back up. And then I would hear faith crying in the other room and I wanted to like go run and get her, but I couldn’t, That is super super tough for me. It’s easier now because you’ve had some time and I trust you that you’re taking care of it. But in the beginning I felt like this need to like to go run and rescue you and her at the same time.
Navigating Challenges as a Married Couple and Parents
Steve: Sure. It will. And when you are as a guy, I wasn’t used to that. You know, I love babies always have, but getting one to stop crying and knowing the specific cries, which is a language all in itself, but learning that and how to cope.
And if I get annoyed, that affects her. And so changing the routine around and making that work. Oh my goodness. That was a hard thing to do at first. There is a bit of a baby bootcamp to go through, I think, but once you get through it and you know, it, I don’t know if it becomes easier. It is more manageable though. Yeah. I guess it’s easier, but. I’m scared to say that, cuz I’ll wake up tomorrow and it’ll just be crazy or something anyways.
Carrie: Raising a child is a little bit like doing therapy in the sense that as therapists, we go to these conferences and they teach us something. Right. And they’re like, “This is amazing. It works so great with clients. It’s awesome.” You know, you’re just gonna see life transformation and you’re all pumped. Right. And you’re like, okay, I got my three-step process. I know what to do. And then you try it out. First client and it does not work. It like falls flat either. You, you know, you did something wrong or it just didn’t work the way it was supposed to.
And parenting for me has been very much been like that. I have the baby books I read, you know, okay. It says do this, or it says do that, but then really you have to learn your baby and you have to learn like what they respond to what’s best for them. And trust me, it is totally not always gone by the book and.
At different points made me anxious like there was a, I guess I just wanna share this for other moms too. There was a period where she just would not sleep in the bassinet. It was just like, hang it up. She was not gonna do it. And the only place I could get her to sleep was to swing. And I was so felt just this sense of angst and guilt going, but the rules say I’m supposed to lay her on her back and I’m supposed to lay her in the crib and she’s not supposed to sleep in the swing.
And you know what, if I harm her and what if she stops breathing or something, but we did it and you know what she slept. And it was important for her to get her sleep. And it was important for us to get our sleep. So our first trip away from the home with the baby, we took the swing with us.
Steve: Thank goodness we did.
Carrie: Yes. We had a little Memorial day getaway before I went back to work and you became a full-time dad. So yeah,
Steve: We traded places there. I will say the swing worked great. And also, and whoever told me this, I just, I owe you like a thousand hugs or a million dollars or something, but put the baby on the dryer,
Carrie: I think that was somebody at your work that done that.
Steve: Yeah. And yes, it was. And when I first heard, I was like, put the baby on the dryer. That sounds crazy. but then you hit this moment where, okay, this baby, she is screaming at the top of her lungs. I cannot stop her. She’s hyperventilating. I don’t know what to do.
I think I’m hyperventilating. So I pick her up and we go down to the dryer. I think you even said, didn’t you say something about the dryer? Sure. Let’s. We go, we put the baby on the dryer. She stops, she just stares at us and it actually worked. So mom’s out there. If you’ve never tried it or dads do it, it worked.
Carrie: Yeah. Something about, the vibration. Yeah. When you turn it on, they really like it. How do you feel like becoming a parent has affected our marriage?
Steve: I think, honestly, bears with me on this statement, but it will either make you or break you.
Carrie: I would agree with that.
Strengthening Communication and Support
Steve: And for us, I think it’s definitely strengthened us. The problem, I think it is is everyone has a way that they think is right. But as a married couple, you have to work together. And when the baby’s screaming, you don’t have time to figure out. Okay. What do you think? Well, what do you think? No, you gotta calm this baby down. The longer you leave the baby crying, the worse it is.
And so in most cases, I feel like, so we really had to work together and just roll with things and not get angry with one another. And we just had to make it work. And I think that we get to a point where we just know we’re like, oh, the baby’s hungry. We know that. Let’s feed the baby or whatever. Whereas initially, that wasn’t the case.
It was, why is this baby crying? What did we do wrong? And I think some couples could easily say, it’s your fault. You did this, you know, but we figured out a way to make it work
Carrie: or to give each other ideas without getting defensive,
Steve: Yes. Which is so easy to do, especially when you have this little tiny being that is screaming in a way that should not be humanly possible. I do not know how she screams that loudly. The other thing that worked really well. When we had company over, she was like the best. I don’t know how that works. Not that she’s ever that bad, honestly, we’re very blessed, but she rarely cries with company. She’s just even happier. She’s just a social butterfly. And so, yeah, we love company now.
Carrie: I knew that you were gonna be a good dad because you were so supportive. And so open, like during the pregnancy process. And that was really great. You went through the classes with me and,
Steve: Oh, those were so much fun. I remember when you said, oh, we’ve got classes, let’s do them.
And I said, all right, that’s fine. You know? And then I found out that they were gonna be on Sunday, which during Sunday evening that yeah. And I was like, oh, But, you know, you get over. That’s so stupid. I sound like an old man. I can’t miss my nap, but I did. And you know, I learned a ton out of it. I really did.
And we even went to CPR class and we did a couple of things that were just. You know, I like to learn, so it was good. it was good. And you’ve been a great mom for that matter while we’re dishing out compliments here. You’ve been a wonderful mom.
Carrie: Yeah. And there is a doula actually took a couple of pictures while I was in labor. I didn’t realize that she took these pictures, but it’s basically of you like supporting me during the labor process. And I look at those and I’m just like, oh, like it just kind of, you really like makes me. You know, warm and fuzzy inside, because that was a very hard time for me. The pregnancy was actually much tougher than the labor was. But going through labor is not super fun,
Steve: And you know how they show it. I’ve never had a child before. Well, I guess technically I still never had a child, you know, you’ve never birthed a child. Right. I’ve never birthed a child before, but that’s probably a good thing. The way that they show it on TV is not reality clearly.
Carrie: Yeah.
Steve: And man, no one gave me a cigar. Not that I’d have smoked it, but no one gave me one of course, whatever, but I wasn’t sitting, waiting in some outside lobby, some. I was in the room with you and there was no break. I remember thinking, well, I think I’ll go get lunch now. And then I looked at you and you’re like, oh no, you won’t
And I was like, no, I won’t. And not that you were rude. I just, I thought things were good and Nope, snack borrow work, or just, well, nevermind, I don’t need anything, but we worked together and that was the first sign that, you know what? You got a parent together. I guess the birth thing you were doing, 99% of the work ladies don’t get like, oh, what’s he think.
But no, you were doing all the work, but it starts there. You know, you, you do what you gotta do. If somebody’s hurting, you gotta be there for ’em, especially if it’s your spouse, And during the labor process, my goodness, I can’t think of it a better time to give support. So we met at work. We had to work together.
Carrie: There used to be this belief that husband shouldn’t be present during labor. I can’t remember why the doctors had some theory on this. And I read in a book that this man actually handcuffed himself to his pregnant wife, smart man. So he could be with her during labor and really changed that process. And how doctors looked at it now.
Steve: Absolutely
Carrie: Most fathers are in the delivery room that are involved anyway. We’ve had some other stressful experiences this year. And I would say that those aren’t necessarily things that were ready to talk about or appropriate to talk about, but it seemed like when it rained, it poured.
Steve: Absolutely. It’s been a challenging year, but at the same time in those challenges, there’s always growth. Yeah. You know, you really, when you’re up against something, you find out who you are, you find out that you cannot handle all of this by yourself. And I’m very thankful that we have one another, you know, to lean on because without church and God, and, and being married and, and those things and having that support system that we have, man, I don’t know how we’d have made it through some of this,
Carrie: Right. Just people that have lifted us up in prayer and talked to us and checked in on. You know, even people that know about your health and waiting for a diagnosis, just being able to tell those people like, okay, well, here we are. This is where, where we’re at and what we’re facing. And this is what we’re looking at in the future.
I think you and I have had to lean on each other a lot. For venting about various issues and processing different things as they’ve come up in a way that spouses should do. But I don’t think everybody does. Right. I don’t think everybody opens themselves up fully vulnerably to their spouse to process through what they’re thinking and feeling about the situations in their life that happen to them.
Learning and Growing Together
Steve: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve learned too that it’s impossible for me to have all the answers mm-hmm so I don’t try to have answers for everything. And usually, the answer to the problem is listen. And so I’ve had to really work hard. Not that I was a terrible listener. But I’ve had to work really hard at listening, which I’m still working on.
That takes time. That doesn’t happen overnight. But a lot of the things that we’ve dealt with have required listening. Yeah. Because there’s no easy answer. Mm-hmm you just, sometimes you have to get it out of your system and vent. And if I’m venting, you listen. And if you’re venting, I listen. That’s just the way that it is.
But listening is, is a big deal, you know, that’s, that’s just, I, I always hear it and I always believe it. I hear people say all the time, you know, God gave you one mouth in two years, so you probably should listen twice as much. Right. It’s true.
Very true. Yeah. And I think those things have grown us closer to God in prayer and closer to each other as we’ve kind of weaned on each other, through these processes. And having our daughter there has been helpful too, because. When you’re down or something’s just difficult. And you’ve got this baby that is just giggling and smiling and sticking her tongue out at you, you cannot be mad. You cannot be upset with life. I really believe our daughter has this gift and that is to be an encourager. She doesn’t even know words yet, but we just kind of pass her around for the hugs and smiles and it just really lightens the mood. It changes the focal point from your problem to just this happy little girl that just wants nothing more than to make you happy. Just been a blessing.
Finding Blessings in the Midst of Challenges
Carrie: I think about that too. And just that Faith was conceived and born really during some dark times and some emotional struggles, but. She’s a reminder of the goodness of God and of the faithfulness of God. You know, when people ask, like, why did you name your daughter faith? It’s like, well, you know, it took a lot of faith for us to get to this point to be alone and then to be older and find each other, not know if we could have a child or not and have her, I really believe that she was born for a purpose in, in God’s plan. And had we received this diagnosis before we got pregnant? We probably would’ve said, you know, I, I don’t think we should do this. I don’t think we should go through with this. So she showed up at just the right time and part of my process right now.
Just trusting God one day at a time to be able to give me the strength to make it through the day, but also to know that he’s in control, that he loves us and that he’s gonna take care of us, regardless of what happens that he’s gonna provide for our needs. That hopefully next time, you know, when we record this in a couple of years, that we’ll be in one storey house.
Just believing that very excited for that day. Yeah. yeah, that she won’t have to traverse the stairs that are in her home and yeah, just knowing that God is good and he loves us. And even in the dark times that he’s still here, he’s still present he’s for us. And that keeps us going just one day at a time, one step at a time.
Embracing the Present and Looking to the Future
I think for me too, living in the moment, learning so much about mindfulness, applying that during my pregnancy, just trying to get through the back pain that I was dealing with at the time it’s allowed me to manage these situations much better because I realized I can only deal with what we have today.
So today was about getting your cane in the mail and you starting to learn how to use it. Today wasn’t the day to worry about, are you gonna end up in a wheelchair because we’re not there? No, and we hope to not be there for sure. but you know, when those thoughts enter my mind, it’s like, okay, you know, pause right now.
We’re thankful every day that Steve can walk, we’re thankful for every day that you get to see your daughter grow up. There was a time period, you know, where it’s like praying that God would preserve your sight. That you’d be able to see her even be born. We just didn’t know. Right. There was so much, we didn’t know at the time that God has allowed you to do that. And learning about this diagnosis has just really reinforced the decision to have you be a stay-at-home dad because now you’re getting more quality time with her. Right. And I love being able to work from home and online and kind of see her during lunch and in between clients.
I don’t have a commute. It’s just been a huge blessing for our family to be able to. Involved in her life. And there’s so much, I think that could have derailed this podcast from continuing, but we’re still here, you know, it’s, it’s still here two years later. That’s right. And after just everything that we’ve gone through, I’m so thankful for that.
I’m thankful for the people that find us that tune. And you know, are willing to listen to me, ramble and fumble through interviewing people. And just have, you know, an amazing teammate as well, that works behind the scenes with me to do our editing, social media and those types of things.
Steve: We are so blessed.
I hope that as a listener, you don’t hear this or someone doesn’t hear this and think my gosh, they got some problems. No, I, I hope you see that we are. That. Yes. There’s something I’ve been diagnosed with, but God’s still blessing me and I was thinking I can’t help, but think of our dear friend who you just had on recently, I don’t remember what the 76 is that it, I can’t remember, but..
Carrie: Don’t remember the number was John Bennett.
Steve: Yes. And we actually spoke with him recently. He and his lovely wife. What an encouragement. He says with what he has, that God’s blessed him. He wouldn’t trade, change it for anything. And when I first heard that, I was like, “Are you crazy? No one wishes cancer on themselves.” But he has such a good attitude about it.
And I thought, my gosh, if I can just have that attitude and see the blessings and not the bad and see that I have a wonderful wife who supports me and I have a beautiful daughter and we just have a good support system. We go to church here. We just love what we have and God has blessed us dearly.
It hasn’t always been. But it’s just better and better every day. So there’s a purpose in it. And that’s the part that I have to see.
Carrie: Yes. And if anybody happens to know anybody with SCA, because it’s just so rare and we’ve looked into some support groups, but we have yet to really meet anybody that’s dealt with that.
So if you wanna drop us a line at the podcast we’d love to hear from me too and learn about your story. I think when we try to explain it to other people, they’re just like what? I’ve never heard of that. And we’re like, well, we hadn’t heard of it either. So right. We’re in the same boat with you.
Steve: And you know, the other thing is I thought when I heard of this, what’s the first thing you do. You try to find somebody famous that has it that way you can say, “well, you know, so, and so has this, you know, the actor or the singer.” There’s no one that’s famous that has this. And so I don’t know, maybe famous people, if you’re famous, you don’t get it.
Maybe that’s the key to get rid of it. I don’t know. But, there are no famous people that have it, that I’m aware of and I’ve looked and I’ve gone on to different groups. And that’s the key thing I hear is who’s famous that has it. And everyone says no one.
Carrie: If we were to ask you a closing question, this has kind of been a story of hope so far. So we won’t ask you the story of hope question, but what would you tell your younger self? Like if we could fast forward, back to our interview a year ago, when we were at first year of marriage, six hours of appointment, no answer. What would you tell yourself?
Steve: Just be patient and know that God’s in control that no matter the outcome he’s in control because there was definitely a time where even just right until I found out what this diagnosis is that I thought this is useless.
We’re spending time, money, effort, resources, whatever to find out an answer that I don’t, I’m not convinced we’re ever gonna find out. And when you have a rare disease that makes it more difficult to diagnose it. Yeah. That might be the reason it took so long. And, and when you’re going to the specialist, the people that should know, and they can’t find out and you keep, you get referred to these places and you get all these tests and they just aren’t getting answers.
You feel like a pin cushion after a while or at least I was getting, I don’t know if I was discouraged just to the point where, okay, enough’s enough. I don’t think we’re gonna find the answer.
Carrie: You actually looked at me and told me that probably about a month before your neurology specialty neurology appointment, you said, I don’t think they’re gonna find it.
Steve: I didn’t, I really didn’t. And you know, they did, and that changes me because now. As I said earlier, I know what I’m fighting against. So I think if you’re in a situation where you don’t think you’re gonna get the answers and you’re not getting the answers, you know what be patient, because God knows the answers.
God knows what you need. Yeah. And the anxiety from it is just not worth it. The amount fret that you have, if that’s a way to say that the worry that you have from it is probably not worth it.
Carrie: I would encourage people not to give up hope and to keep seeking the person that has the answers that you need, or the knowledge base that you need in order to have a diagnosis or to get better.
I know from clients that I’ve talked to in the past who were misdiagnosed, or, you know, maybe they had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but they really had PTSD. And you explained to. You’re telling me about all these traumatic things that you’ve been through. Here are some of the symptoms of PTSD.
This is actually something that’s highly treatable. We can work through this trauma and we can help you get to a better place. That’s so encouraging and so hopeful for them or for somebody who is dealing with obsessions, that makes them feel like, well, I must be crazy or I must be horrible. But then when they learn, they have O C D there’s this.
That comes to it as well. Like, oh, this is a condition. It has a treatment, you know, I can get better. I may be waxing and waning throughout my life, but I can be in a better place than I am right now. I know that we had people tell us, even like, Hey, if you have to, you know, go to the Mayo clinic, then go to the Mayo clinic.
Like don’t give up on yourself. Find the answers. Thankfully, we just had to get to the correct specialists at Vanderbilt. Yeah. That we needed to see who was just incredibly nice and compassionate were appreciative of him.
Steve: I would say too. And you said this to me before that it would be difficult if I were still single. I don’t know how I would’ve handled this. It would’ve been very, very difficult. And I would say if you are single or in a situation where you feel like you’re alone with something, don’t do it alone, get a prayer partner. You know, you can call your church. If you have one and say, “Hey, would you pray for me?”
Do not do it alone because that’s the worst thing you could do. I support the people who have prayed for me, the people who have stood beside me, Carrie, who’s been right there the whole time. That means so much. That’s what gets you through your day sometimes when you really want to give up, you’re like, I’m done with this.
This is so terrible. And then they’re right there, cheering you on. You can do this and it just, makes a world of difference. So don’t do it alone.
Carrie: Yeah, of course, as always. It was great to have you back on the podcast. Thank you everyone for tuning in and listening to us ramble about our second year of marriage.
Steve: Yeah, thanks for having me, by the way, I enjoy this.
Carrie: We had no script for this. We just kind of rolled with it off the cuff, which is not something either one of us normally does. We normally have a list of questions.
Steve: A list. Yes, I have no notes whatsoever. That’s rare.
Carrie: Yes, but I think it turned out the way it was supposed to went to encourage everyone to subscribe to our newsletter.
They can do that by going on the hope for anxiety and ocd.com website, there’s a free relaxation download for you there. And I’m gonna be working on some other free downloads for people, maybe PDFs or things like that. So when I have those. I will let y’all know about those as well. We have a goal to really double our email subscribers by the end of the year, to get to about 150.
So if you can help us with that goal, we would so appreciate it. And we’ll be giving away. T-shirts exclusively to our email subscribers. We never heard back from our last winner. Lisa. We’re gonna try to reach out to you one more time, but then I don’t know. We may have to give your t-shirt away to somebody else.
Don’t miss out on your free t-shirt
Steve: you know, Lisa, please call her and tell her
Lisa claim your t-shirt please claim your t-shirt. You don’t wanna miss that.
Carrie: You know, I really thought maybe she thought it was a scam. When I emailed
her.
Steve: She may have,
Carrie: this is not a scam. You really get a t-shirt. Anyway, thank you so much for listening.
Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Today on the show, I’m joined by Dr. Sherri Yoder, a former clinical psychologist and the founder and executive director of Thriving Thoughts Global. Dr. Sheri talks about her personal story of anxiety and how it led her to her work now in her non-profit organization.
Dr. Yoder’s story of struggling with anxiety
Strategies she used to work through her own anxiety
How she got involved in mental health prevention and education
More about her non-profit organization, Thriving Thoughts Global
Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 79. Today on the show, we have a little bit of a unique episode. I mean, we’ve done these kinds before, but it’s kind of a combination of personal story and professional, um, inform. So I have Dr. Sherri Yoder, who is a former clinical psychologist and the founder and executive director of Thriving Thoughts Global, which is about mental healthcare prevention.
From Clinician to Patient: My Battle with Anxiety
So I’m really interested in that conversation that we’re gonna have Dr. Sherri.
You wanted to start out by talking about kind of your own personal story of anxiety.
Dr. Sherri: Thank you so much for having me Carrie and giving me the opportunity to share a little bit. I think it’s so important for us to not just normalize anxiety, but normalize how we respond to it.
Thanks for giving me the chance to do that. Years ago when I was practicing as a clinical psychologist. So it’s been almost maybe 10 years now. I had my first, what I would call major episode with anxiety. That was pretty chronic. It was both acute and chronic at the same time. It lasted a long time. It had to do with a lot of things.
It had, my thoughts had to do with some spiritual fears, but also some professional fears. Somewhat related to being an imposter and that sort of thing. But being found out just irrational fear of being found out, what am I gonna be found out about? I keep up with my CE’s. I do the things I do therapy. Like I’m good.
I’m good at my business, you know, all of that, but there were certainly irrational fears that started to develop. And so what happened during that time is it got so bad that the only time that I wasn’t having a spiraling thoughts that would kind of physically take me out at the knees was when I was in therapy when I was doing therapy with other people because I was like, I was zoned in, I was focused on them and it was like a freedom to a degree because I didn’t have to be inside my head.
I could be outside of my head. And so that was really the only relief that I got during that time. And I’d say that that ran about four to five months to the point where I knew it was unsustainable, I knew I had to do something. I had to respond to it differently, or I was gonna have to check myself in somewhere because it was getting that bad.
I say that to say that I was never formally diagnosed. I was a clinical psychologist. I was the one that diagnosed other people. And certainly, I could have met the criteria for a number of different anxiety-related disorders. But what happened during that time is what served as the catalyst for the work that I do now. And it was a deep, intimate understanding of what it’s like to deal with potentially debilitating anxiety. And so what happened is I became a stronger clinician in that regard, but I became a more compassionate human as well. So I’m thankful for that experience. And since then that set me on the path to realize that everything that I go through, no matter how scary or so badly I wanna avoid it or painful, it is. There is a way to use that. Not just to help other people, but to grow me.
Carrie: That’s good. I’m glad you brought up imposter syndrome because I think that’s a thing that a lot of people who are in professional careers have and it’s something that people think well, okay. I’m really educated.
I’m functional. I mean, I go to work every day. Like, not just that, but like I’m my achiever. And they don’t necessarily always recognize that anxiety within themselves or that thought process that is really fueled by anxiety of I’m never quite good enough. I’ve always gotta kind of do better. There’s always more that I could be doing for myself.
Dr. Sherri: Yeah. And as a clinician, I think, you know, this, Carrie. You have a serious responsibility on your hands, right?
Carrie: Sure.
The Importance of Recognizing Vulnerability and Its Connection to Anxiety
Dr. Sherri: You’re dealing with the personal lives of people. And there is a level of, there’s an onus that comes with that to honor that, to be reverent of that. And I think that led to one of the things that I since learned about anxiety for myself and for other people I’ve now, since I left the field, I do some individual work called thought coaching. So I help people with their thoughts. But what I’ve learned is that there’s two things that happen with anxiety. One is that I had to know when I was most vulnerable.
Carrie: Oh, That’s good. Right.
Dr. Sherri: I had to be aware of that. When I was most vulnerable was when I was alone. And that was particularly problematic for me because I was single and didn’t have any children work was like, “Yay. I’m not alone.” And then when I got out of work, that’s all I was, was alone. And so there’s a tendency there to not want to be alone, but I had to be alone in my vulnerability in order to address it because if I avoided that. I was never gonna get to a place where I could address it. And to be clear, I didn’t do that work alone. I employed the help of some friends and things, but to know where your vulnerability is because if you’re gonna respond to it differently, you have to prepare. Yeah, right. And so my vulnerability was in the alone spaces.
So that’s the first thing that I needed to be aware of that helped me through that. And then the second thing was to understand that all anxiety, I don’t care how irrational it is. I don’t care how out of the blue, the thoughts are. They always stem from some nugget of truth. So going back to this, like, oh, you’re gonna be found out. You’re a fake, you’re a fraud. Like what? No, I’m actually a licensed clinical psychologist. Right. I have my doctorate. There’s nothing for me to be found out about. It related back to me to the negative truth of that onus of that responsibility that you have in that role.
And so I think about parents, mothers that I’ve worked with and they have responsibilities for their children. And very much of some of their thought worlds and the anxiety-related thoughts that they have are related to fears of something happening to their children. Right? Well, that is where that little nugget of truth. I have this responsibility here. So, whether that’s in a job or whatever it is, whatever kind of has your attention, has your focus, that’s also your vulnerability and the source of that kind of nugget of truth for the thoughts to spiral into total opposite of truth thoughts,
Carrie: Right? So it’s like teasing out. What is the actual negative truth, which for you was, I do have some responsibility to care for people. However, the fear piece was you’re gonna really screw somebody up. You’re really gonna mess this up, being able to separate those out and tease that out was helpful for you. It sounds like.
Replacing Anxiety with Truth: The Power of Thought Coaching
Dr. Sherri: Oh my goodness. Yeah, because then I was able to. When I gave myself permission to say, okay, this makes sense, but it doesn’t make sense that it’s gone, like so far to the left of where it was, right. So far from the needle of truth. But it makes sense now that is a source of my worry. And so then I could stop berating myself. “What’s wrong with you? You’re just crazy.” No, no, no, no, no. My mind just took this idea and kind of blew it way out of proportion almost without my permission. And so to be able to kind of step outside and see that is really what my saving grace was, because then what I did, I’ll share with you really quickly, what I did, which I didn’t know then would become my life’s work of learning to take the thoughts that we have in our minds and evaluate them for veracity. Are they real? Or are they lies? That’s what I say, are they truth or are they lies? And if they’re lies, okay, then they’re not serving me. Well, how do I replace that with truth? So what I did during that time, a friend of mine had asked me. He said, “Sherri, I want you to write down for me. I’m a woman of faith. I want you to write down all of God’s promises. And so I did, and I didn’t believe half of them at the time because I mean, there was stuff going on in my mind and so I wrote them all down. And so then what I did is I pulled out the language that I used with myself in those moments of anxiety, of heightened anxiety, the phrases that I said, you’re a fraud you’re gonna be found out. You don’t know what you’re doing, whatever the thoughts were.
I wrote all of those down on one side of the paper. And then on the opposite side of the paper, I wrote down the truths of what I knew to be true. Even if I didn’t. Yeah. Then what I did is every moment when I was having these anxiety thoughts instead of letting it spiral out of control, I immediately opened that book and I scanned down to the one that, the thought that came into my head and I looked to the right of it and I said aloud the corresponding truth and why was that important.
I didn’t know at the time that that was important that I did that, but it was important because I understood and came to realize this about anxiety. And depression or anything like that, something that was so liberating for me to know and something that just enlarged my compassion for people was when you’re in that space and people say “it’s all in your head or whatever. ” Yeah, you’re right. It is. And I can’t get out of there.
Carrie: I’m stuck. I’m trapped. Yeah.
Dr. Sherri: Right. And so what I learned was having a physical, external reminder was what I needed because when I was in that space, I couldn’t think of anything else. I needed something written down outside of my head that I could ground me to a degree because if left to my own thoughts, it was just gonna spiral out of control. Having that external reminder was key to fighting that battle of anxiety and that composition notebook fell apart Carrie. I mean, I opened that thing. I must have opened it every, when I was alone, like every minute because it was nonstop.
Open it, read it, open it, read it and then shut it down. Okay. I’m okay. Nope.
Carrie: You would ike carry it around with you?
Dr. Sherri: Everywhere. And I’ve carried that habit. With me to this day for different, like, I have sticky notes. I have everywhere. I have them in my car. I have them in my wallet, in my kitchen, in my desk, wherever of just different things to remind myself of.
I choose to speak kindly to myself. Different things to remind myself of. And I move them around because our brain habituates to the same thing in the same place. Anyway, besides that it took work, there were times when I thought, “oh my gosh, this isn’t working. It’s not stopping,” but I remained faithful to that work to doing something different.
And what I learned is since then, this is 10 years ago. My tension, my tendency towards anxiety that hasn’t gone away. But what’s changed has been my response to it. And I taught myself, I taught my brain a new habit. It’s possible. It takes a heck of a lot of work. And a lot of perseverance, but to me it’s so worth it. And now it’s a lifelong practice that I know not to believe the first thought that comes into my mind to evaluate it and then decide what to do with it. So that’s kind of led to my work now.
Carrie: That’s great. We had another guest on that talked about having kind of like a “911 note” on her phone. She’s a health coach now, but she was trying to lose weight. And so she had various things on her 911 note. Yes. You know, note that she would just pull up and there were scripture verses and positive affirmations and so forth. And so every time she kind of wanted to slip back into all patterned, she got that out and went through it and I think.
I appreciate what you’re saying about it being work because unfortunately, obviously, like we live in a society of instant gratification and to really do something like essentially what you’re talking about is thought replacement. It does. It takes effort and it takes repetition. You know, anytime we’re trying to learn something new like our brain is literally creating new pathways.
Yes. And that’s not gonna happen just overnight or, oh, well, I tried to do that like one or two times, and I just wasn’t feeling it and I don’t think it’s gonna work for me. That kind of lingo is like, I want people to hear, like, it is hard to work through your anxiety, but you can do it. You can, you can work through some of these things and learn new behaviors and new patterns and new coping skills with life to have like a better outcome.
Did you end up going to therapy for yourself? I’m just curious.
The Lifelong Practice: Working Through Anxiety and Building Resilience
Dr. Sherri: I did not. Well, that depends on how you look at it informally sure because I have a lot of colleagues. I did process this with the number of people. And I did not keep it to myself. I think that’s the other thing that’s so important is, and unfortunate in the realm of mental health, I get it. We have HIPAA laws, we have privacy laws. But I think an unfortunate side effect of that is the propagation that I’m not supposed to have these problems. We kind of hide it in these four walls behind closed doors. I can only talk about this with my therapist, or I’m not even gonna go to therapy because if I go to therapy, then I admit there’s something wrong with me. I think it’s about shedding light on the normalization of our human, emotional experiences and understanding that we all have them to varying degrees, to varying intensities, varying propensities and varying seasons. I don’t claim Carrie to be out of the anxiety woods. Right.
I think that’s the other kind of faulty belief is like, I’m over it, but that’s the trick about anxiety and or depression is it comes back when you least expect it, but there are new ways that you can respond to it. And so I, for me, It’s not believing that I’m never gonna be impacted by it again, instead, it’s believing that I’m gonna be able to not only just cope with it, but to use it to be stronger.
I actually have this little sticky note here. I have to read it to you. It says, “A bird sitting in a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking because his trust is not on the branch but in his own wings,
Carrie: I can get up and fly if this branch starts to crack it’s okay.
Dr. Sherri: That’s right.
Carrie: How did you make this shift from, you know, mental health treatment to getting involved in mental health prevention and starting a non- profit.
Dr. Sherri: A very, very intense story short, which I think was birthed in this season of anxiety that I just described to you. But I started having trouble sleeping at night, quite literally. And I thought, man, I think that people need to know that if they’re having these feelings, there’s nothing wrong with them because I think that’s the other thing that gives.
The feeling more power than it should have is that I’m not supposed to feel this way. Right. And so I said, how can I take this message to people that aren’t gonna go see a shrink? Cause listen, in my line of work, I can tell you how many times I heard people literally say, you don’t go to see a shrink unless you wanna be crazy or right.
That’s what you do. I used to have people walking into my office like this, like hiding their face, cuz they were ashamed of. And so I thought, how can I start a conversation about these common human experiences and emotional experiences and thought experiences that we have to bring a new sense of enlightenment of helping people understand that they have this mental and emotional health t take care of and how they can do that. And so I stopped taking insurance. I said, I’m gonna stop diagnosing, I’m gonna stop treating and I’m gonna start educating people. So I just started speaking for free. Then I kind of made my way through some organizational consulting stuff, cuz those are curated, captive audiences to a degree and speaking at various civic organizations, networking groups, that kind of thing.
And then I did that for about four years and then I ealized mid-pandemic first year of the pandemic in 2020, how do I make this movement? Something bigger than me and how do I make it reach further than what I alone can do? And so then the idea was start a non-profit. I started the nonprofit thriving thoughts, global.
The whole idea is to educate people through conversation and principle and thought strategies and things like that. But to educate women in particular, because I believe they’re the ones who are the influencers that talk to their families, talk to their best friends, talk to their kids, right. So if we can teach women how to do this, then they’re the ones that are gonna have that ripple effect.
How to understand and not be so blown away by the thoughts and feelings that we have, but to use them to their benefit, to use them to their advantage. And so that’s what we’re doing there, and we’re doing that through several different means. We’re creating webinars that we’re offering monthly, we’re creating a new podcast that has like 10 to 15-minute stories of women who have gone through maybe a challenging experience and how they used one of our, what we call thriving thoughts, pillars, to learn how to grow through that, to learn, to respond differently through that, so that it strengthened them mentally and emotionally and relationally as well.
And then starting conversations about just some of the things that in our Western culture. I think our foundational influences in depression and anxiety that started at a very, very young age that have to do with comparison and measuring up and that sort of stuff. So just helping offering and alternative conversation about mental health and teaching people that there’s a way to protect their mental health, to build it and to prevent things like deep experiences of anxiety and depression.
Carrie: I think that’s what you’re talking about is interesting. This concept that everyone has at some point or another, like some type of mental health struggle. And really, if you walk into a counselor’s office, they could slap any kind of diagnosis on you because I mean, if you just read the DSM, you’re like, “oh, I, yeah. I’ve had that symptom” and you’re reading some other symptom. I mean, don’t ever read it because next thing you know, you know, you’re gonna be like, well, I have this
Dr. Sherri: land it’s ike, don’t go to WebMD if you have a headache.
Carrie: That’s interesting. And I think you are right that, I mean, I’m definitely a big proponent of therapy and I’ve had a lot of therapy myself. That’s been super helpful, but I do also recognize there are some people that they’re just not gonna do it. They’re never gonna do that kind of work. And maybe they can be reached a different way. So a lot of education. And what is your podcast gonna be called?
Dr. Sherri: It’s called the Fortified Woman podcast. It’s helping people to understand that it’s possible to look at situations differently. And when you change the way you look at them through your thoughts, your outcome is different. Am I the woman who always expects the worst of a situation? Because if that’s the case, I’m probably gonna experience. There’s all sorts of psychological evidence for this confirmation bias and priming of our cognitions and what we expect and that sort of thing. And so it’s about having these. Let me clarify. Treatment has value and prevention has value and both can coexist and they should. Right now, unfortunately, the predominant narrative around mental health. If you look at, you know, May is mental health awareness month, right? It’s really not mental health awareness month, at least in the way people talk about it. It’s really mental illness awareness month.
Let’s talk about those people who have those challenges. No, no, no, no, no, no. We are all those people. We all have these opportunities to go down a crisis hole. And so let’s start having those conversations. Let’s talk about not how to cope with life, but how to grow through life. And it really is an idea of thriving over surviving.
Carrie: I mean, at some point or another, we’re all gonna hit a difficult challenge in life and you don’t necessarily know what that’s gonna be or when that’s gonna happen. But I think like what you’re saying is you can allow those things to crush and break you, or you can say, okay, how can I work through this and become stronger and become better as a result of that?
Yes. Do you feel like your faith has really impacted you in regards to that. Just, I don’t know, thinking about things in the Bible related to perseverance and going through trials. And did you really look at that stuff when you were going through the heavy anxiety?
Dr. Sherri: I think for me, it was more about God’s design for us. There’s all these promises in the Bible like your promised peace, you’re promised an abundant life. And if we’re promised that, then what are we missing out on if we’re not experiencing that. And a lot of. Really boils down to the way we think. I mean, scripture has a lot of examples with think this, not that right. Think about things above versus things below. And, and when you do that, you can kind of extrapolate and say, oh, this thing below has a purpose.
It can have an eternal purpose or a relational purpose, a discipleship purpose. So, yes, my personal journey has been deeply informed by that, but also deeply informed by my clinical training and expertise and experiences with people that have been so formative that have just allowed me to catch a glimpse of the truth is that we were made in God’s image, every person.
And if we’re made in God’s image, when we have these feelings, there’s nothing wrong with. If you look at the life of Jesus, Jesus had all of these feelings. Well with one exception and that’s anxiety, that’s probably a different spiritual conversation, but there are things we can do. Take every thought captive, right? Evaluate every thought. Is it true? Is it a lie? What am I believing right now? What rabbit hole am I going down right now? And is there another trail for me to follow? So, yeah, my faith has definitely informed my personal growth, but also my professional growth and help giving me insight into what people are facing up here, what women in particular are dealing with in their thought world. It’s been a very deeply humbling and gratifying experience. And I would say that for the thriving thoughts, global movement, it’s certainly faith informed because I’m the founder of it. Mm-hmm but it’s not faith-based. Our desire is to propagate hope with regard to the way that you are naturally designed to be able to take thoughts captive without necessarily speaking Jesus over you.
Carrie: If you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger self who was dealing with anxiety?
Dr. Sherri: This is probably not the most popular answer, but I really wouldn’t tell her anything. I would say, keep doing what you’re doing. You’re discovering the right path for you. I would just be on the sidelines kind of cheering like “good job. You’ve got this.” You can do this. You can figure this out. I think that comes from the space nobody can tell us exactly what to do. We can give ideas, we can give information, you can offer something, but really, it depends on it’s up to that person to pick it up. And so when they pick it up, then they kind of go, “oh, now I’ve got some interest,” but that really has to be a thing of the self.
I don’t know that anything I know for me, I’m a very stubborn person have been since I was a kid. Reframe that as tenacious, but if you tell me something, I’m not gonna learn by it. I have to do it.
Carrie: I think that’s interesting that if we don’t go through these struggles, it doesn’t get us to where we need to be. You know, that’s just part of the life process. And so maybe that encourages somebody today that like, you’re probably on the path of where you need to be and you just don’t necessarily know it right now. You’re probably like, what am I doing here? And why am I dealing with all this anxiety here? Why am I dealing with this? O C D instead of saying like, okay, well somehow this is all gonna weave together and I’ll look back. Yeah. It makes sense why I had that struggle and something good and something beautiful. Grew out of it in the end.
Dr. Sherri: Yeah. And I would say you don’t even have to wait for the end. One of the things it’s really, it’s about the process. We live in such a culture. You were referring to instant gratification, but we live in such a culture. That’s always looking for the success story. And I think the success story is not on the other side. The success is in the doing it’s in the right here right now like what am I doing right here right now? That’s the win? That’s the success? Am I doing something to learn in this moment? Am I doing something beneficial for myself? Am I doing something to grow right now? Or am I doing something to regress? because this is it. This is all we have is right here right now.
Carrie: And sometimes getting out of bed is a success. Yeah,
Dr. Sherri: Yeah absolutely. It’s what am I doing? Right. And I will say this, that particularly in Western culture, we have this underlying belief that suffering is not supposed to exist.
Carrie: It’s a very unhealthy belief for us to have. But
Dr. Sherri: But it is a cultural narrative. I read once there was a woman from Georgia, an academic from Georgia. I can’t think of her name at the moment, but she said we have an epidemic of people who are unhappy about being unhappy. We’re not supposed to be happy all the time. we can just start to talk about that, have that conversation, then we’re not gonna be so blown away when we’re happy.
Carrie: Thank you for sharing your personal story and as well as your insights, we’ll put the link to your nonprofit in the show notes.
Dr. Sherri: Thank you so much. It was a good conversation today.
Dr. Sherri: Thanks Carrie.
Carrie: I think there were several great takeaways that came out of this show with Dr. Sherry so I hope that you picked up a nugget that will help you kind of on your journey of progress. If you haven’t checked out our website, yet we have a website hope for anxiety and O C d.com that I just wanna encourage you to look at. We’re trying to do some updates to that and make it more searchable. So more people will be able to find out about our show. On the front page, you can sign up for our email newsletter and get a free audio file of color breathing, which is something that I’ve used with clients and they’ve really enjoyed it. They kind of can help you relax and calm down when you’re utilizing something like deep breathing. Sometimes it helps to have a mental focus. So this gives you that mental focus .
Thank you so much for listening.
Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling.
Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
