Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, there was much discussion in the EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) community about whether or not EMDR therapy could effectively be done online. There were concerns from clinicians about their clients having intense emotional reactions or dissociation and not being present to help their clients calm down. The EMDR International Association (EMDRIA) was in the process of developing guidelines for virtual EMDR, which of course, was pushed to the forefront in the beginning of 2020.
Almost overnight, all EMDR therapists were seeing their clients online. Many clinicians who had been hesitant or scared to try EMDR virtually were thrust into a dilemma: Do I provide a technique I know that works for clients in distress or do I prolong their suffering indefinitely until we can be back with them in the office? For me, this decision was less of a dilemma. Due to moving therapy offices in 2019, my appointments were already about thirty percent virtual. I had even tried EMDR with a couple higher functioning clients, and they managed the therapy well.
Can EMDR therapy be done online?
The short answer is a resounding yes. There are many ways to achieve this, but a well trained EMDR therapist who has experience providing EMDR therapy online will tell you that the technique works just as well online as in person. There are three levels of training in EMDR. Therapists can either be trained, certified, or a consultant. Certified EMDR therapists have completed further training and consultation hours after their initial two weekends of training. Consultants have received additional training and supervision in their consultation of other EMDR therapists.
How do you do EMDR therapy online?
EMDR requires what is often referred to as bilateral stimulation (BLS) or dual attention stimulation (DAS). These terms are often used interchangeably in EMDR literature. Most people see BLS/DAS being administered by eye movements. This is how EMDR is usually depicted in TV or movies. However, the same BLS/DAS can be achieved by the client tapping themselves on their shoulders or knees, following the therapist’s fingers, or using computerized software in which a client looks back and forth. Eye movements need to be utilized with someone on a computer rather than a phone as the phone doesn’t provide enough width.
What if I become overwhelmed during online EMDR therapy?
Whether EMDR is administered in person or online, it’s important to let your therapist know when things feel like they are getting too much. Having a good relationship with your therapist and proper preparation for EMDR therapy is the key to successful EMDR treatment.
Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP of By The Well Counseling is an EMDR Consultant who specializes in helping clients with trauma, anxiety and OCD get to a deeper level of healing through EMDR via online counseling across Tennessee and in person intensive therapy sessions. Carrie is the host of the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast, which is a welcome place for struggling Christians to reduce shame, increase hope, and develop healthier connections with God and others.
I’m privileged to be interviewing Stay Quick, a licensed professional counselor and therapist at NOCD. Stacy talks about how Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy (ERP) works for OCD and her own experience with OCD.
Carrie: Hope For Anxiety and OCD episode 74. Today’s episode is on exposure and response prevention, which is often used in treating OCD. I had wanted to devote an episode to this for a little while, because it’s something that’s talked about and has come up on our show before in personal experiences however, there’s a little bit of tension in the community between what I do. That’s a little bit different type of trauma informed approach and ERP as a result, some people have chosen not to appear on the podcast or have been very critical of some things that I have said or written regarding treatment methods, such as EMDR being used for OCD.
One person even actually accused me of spreading lies on my website before they even had a conversation with me about this. That was a little rough, but we recovered. And unfortunately, today’s guest contacted me to share her personal story and also the work that she does with exposure and response prevention. Today on the show, we have Stacy Quick, licensed professional counselor and therapist at N CD. Welcome to the show today.
Stacy: Thank you for having me on. I’m excited to be here.
Carrie: So I know that a lot of times we talk to professionals on our show who treat OCD and sometimes they have their own personal experience with OCD. And you had shared with me that you dealt with scrupulosity in the past. Can you just tell us a little bit about your journey of recognizing that you had OCD the symptoms being diagnosed with it?
Stacy: Sure. I’ve actually had OCD for my entire life. I don’t really remember a time not having it. Obviously, I wasn’t diagnosed with it for quite some time, because this was back in the eighties and kind of nineties. And so not as much was known about it.
Carrie: Sure.
Stacy: And some of my first, I guess memories, I would say is about age five or six and some of the very first ones that had started were more, what I would now know scrupulosity where I was having images of religious figures that were kind of inappropriate, that kind of things that would, or thoughts about that, that would pop into my head from a very young age.
And it would really, really bother me. And I can remember, I wasn’t really sure what was going on.
The interesting thing there is that at that time in my life, my dad was pretty much an atheist and we didn’t go to church. We didn’t really believe. So it’s interesting that it took on that form that young, I’ve always wondered about that, but it did. And I know my grandma had been religious and so I assume she had probably talked to me a little bit about stuff and she probably had pictures around her house. So I kind of knew the basics. I knew Mary, I knew Jesus. I knew that kind of thing. And then I think my brain just kind of went wild with that. And then it blossomed into lots and lots of things I joke and say, I think I’ve had every theme or form out there over the years.
Carrie: That’s important for people to know just about OCD in general, if they haven’t researched it, a ton is themes do shift. So sometimes they’ll think, there will be some kind of sense of relief when they’ve gotten through one theme, like, good that’s gone away now. And sometimes they can deal with a theme. The next theme is a little bit more manageable, so they don’t really feel like they have a problem. They’re like, well maybe that went away. That was super distressing. And then they’re able to manage or cope in their life with the next theme better. And then another theme hits that’s unmanageable. Have you gone through periods of like that because OCD has this tendency, you know, to like wax and wayne.
Stacy: Definitely. Almost all of the members I’ve seen throughout the years of doing therapy have said very similar things. They’ve said it comes and it goes, there are times in my life. Where it is really loud in times where it’s much quieter. And that seems to be reflective of many people’s experience, not just my own, but theirs as well. One of the things that I think research would support is that when you’re under more stressful times in your life or big life changes, that’s when OCD seems to be more prevalent. It kind of, I think of it in my own life as it kind of hangs out. And then it demands a little more attention during times of change or challenging times in my life. It tries to anyways.
Carrie: That’s a really good way of describing it. It’s like, it’s always there. And sometimes it’s a little bit more in the background and sometimes it’s more in the foreground, like knocking on your brain, demanding attention, like, Hey, pay attention to me.
Stacy: Yes. That’s definitely how I think of it. And I know what I always tell people, people always kind of ask, is it curable? Right? And what I say to that is. It’s very, very manageable. Right? You can live in recovery because of my beliefs. Do I believe that yes, it could be cured. Absolutely. And at the same time, my experience says that’s a very rare thing to happen. I believe God could do it for sure. And sometimes He doesn’t usually, He doesn’t for whatever reason, He knows a lot more than me. So I’m just gonna address that.
Carrie: I think that’s a great perspective to have on it that regardless of what people are dealing with, whether it’s anxiety or OCD or depression, sometimes we have battles in our life or trials that we go
through that are long term that are ongoing and we do struggle with why won’t God take this away from me? I don’t understand it. Why I’m having to go through this. Did you experience some of that in your own spiritual wrestlings with God?
Stacy: Absolutely. I really struggled with that throughout the years. I’m in my forties now. And so having had this for 36 years, at least. I started my relationship with God when I was probably around 11. And so since about that time, I struggled. And what has really helped me is when you look at Peter and what Peter says about how I have this thorn in my side, and I often go back to that where he basically says, I ask God three times to take this from me. And he didn’t. And he said, my grace is sufficient for you. And so for me, that’s what I go back to when people ask why, I don’t know why. And it is something that’s my thorn and it’s something I’ve carried doesn’t mean he won’t someday heal it.
But what it has brought into my life has been this calling, right? I would not be doing the work I do had I not had these experiences. And so I am a big believer that the things we go through or the trials or battles we face are meant to do something right. We’re supposed to do something with them. At least that’s my thoughts. And so I do think that definitely led me down the path. I would not be doing this if it wasn’t for that.
Carrie: There’s a really great verse in second Corinthians towards the beginning that I like that talks about how we comfort other people with the comfort that we’ve received from God. And I feel in a lot of ways, that’s like my life first, the sufferings and the trials that I’ve been through and have experienced with God. It’s like I’m able to pass the Baton and help other people through some of those similar trials and situations.
Stacy: Absolutely. I agree a hundred percent. I think the majority of the people I have worked with, who I’ve shared parts of my story with when it’s appropriate, have been so grateful just to find out I’m not alone. There’s someone else who has been down this road because I think OCD in particular has this. Certain peculiar missed about it, that people do feel very alone in it and feel like nobody understands it, because it can take on some really bizarre themes and it jumps so much. Right? So I think people find comfort in that, that, my goodness. Here’s somebody who has been through this and has in a sense, come out on the other side.
Carrie: So I wanna shift a little bit and get into talking about exposure and response prevention, because that’s the therapeutic tool that you use probably most often on NO CD. I’ve had a little bit of struggles over the years with ERP and I shared some of those with you before we started recording.I don’t dislike ERP I’m completely open to it. I know that it helps some people. I also know that from my background of dealing with trauma, that if someone tries to just use a straight ERP model with someone who’s experienced trauma, sometimes that can make their trauma experiences, PTSD symptoms and worse. And so there’s this balance of having to make sure that we’re helping people who have been diagnosed with multiple things. And a lot of times people will say, well It’s been research that ERP works well with OCD, and we know that people are people they’re complex. And I’ve tried to get someone to talk about ERP on the show and was basically told that I was spreading lies on my website because I talk about treatments that are not just ERP. And we’ve talked about all kinds of things on the show.
We were very open to whatever helps people like get the help that you need. And we had someone say they got help through brain spotting with their OCD and that’s awesome. Some people are helped by EMDR and by other methods. And so whatever you can get around you that is gonna help. I want people to be helped, but I’d love to have more of this conversation about how does exposure and response prevention help people who have OCD.
Stacy: I think you bring up a really great point. I think that’s why it’s so important that if you have been diagnosed with OCD or you suspect that you have OCD that you see somebody who specializes in it’s, somebody who is very familiar with it, because it is often misdiagnosed. And there are many, many people who get misdiagnosed and it can be harmful. Right?
Carrie: Yes absolutely.
Stacy: We’ve had people who have been diagnosed with psychosis and things like that when it wasn’t, but you really have to know it very well to see the differences. And you want somebody who’s trained enough, who also knows other forms of therapy so that they can tell what else you might need in conjunction. Right? Because you’re right. People often don’t come to you with just straight depression or straight anxiety or straight OCD, right? It is often a combination. And so one of the things we do really well, I think at OCD, is that we are careful to make sure that we’re also giving people resources and referrals for treatment providers that would deal with say complex trauma or major depression and things like that.
We know that when people do ERP for obsessive compulsive disorder, when it’s comorbid with depression and anxiety, it often does help relieve some of those symptoms. And there are times when they also need to be addressed separately and regular cognitive behavioral therapy or talk therapy can be very helpful for depression and for anxiety and for many other things.
And so I do think it is often a combination because it’s not often that you see somebody who just has OCD. And at the same time, we do know that exposure in response prevention is the gold standard treatment for OCD, but you’re right. You also have to have somebody who takes into account.
There might be some other things going on, and I’m very careful to do a trauma screening with everyone I see, because I do think you have to go about that in a very cautious way. Right? And often people can be doing trauma work separately while they’re working with me on street ERP. And so I find that to be very useful. And then we coordinate things.
Carrie: I appreciate your openness on that, because I know that there are some providers that are very rigid surrounding only using the ERP model. It’s a little bit frustrating, because there’s a level of rigidity with OCD that I feel like almost gets, there’s a parallel between that almost in the professionals that treat it, that I don’t feel like is helpful for the clients, just in general. Exposure and response prevention. There’s a lot of different things that go into that, but can you just give us kind of a brief overview.
Stacy: Sure. It’s basically gradually exposing you to triggers that typically would cause intrusive, unwanted, either thoughts, feelings, or urges, and then it works with you to prevent the compulsive response. So typically in order to be diagnosed with OCD you have to have obsessions or intrusive thoughts, images.
That are unwanted or urges and then compulsion something you’re doing that reduces those feelings of anxiety and discomfort or in a way neutralizes it. Right? And those can be internal or external. Right?
They can be things you see such as the most common ones, I guess, that you hear about are checking things repeatedly, or it might be saying prayers out loud, repeatedly, but it can also be internal. It can be mental compulsions, like trying to solve problems by replaying them over and over and over again. Did this really happen like this, or trying to reason sort of with the OCD? That’s the other reason it’s really important to work side by side with a trained therapist, because you might miss those mental compulsions. Right?
Carrie: Right.
Stacy: Sometimes it’s something as simple as I have to say this in my head or count this number in my head. Right? People don’t always recognize that as a compulsion, but it is.
Carrie: Because it becomes so automatic and just part of their process. I know that reassurance seeking is a really big compulsion that a lot of people have, like that need to talk to somebody else about it, or sometimes make confess certain things to another person.
Stacy: For sure. I know those are ones that often people don’t even realize they’re doing or they realize it, but then they get sneaky. Right? They don’t try to get reassurance without straight out asking for. Right? I know one big one for me when I was a kid was confessing. And I see that a lot with kids, especially really young kids.
That’s one of the first things I’m looking for when I’m talking to parents, are they coming to you a lot and telling you things that maybe. Another kiddo would not do. Right?
Carrie: Right.
Stacy: Cause I just remember that a lot with my mom and that really is reassurance seeking because then that person typically says, no, you’re fine.
That’s just a thought or that’s not something you’re really wanting to do, something to that effect.
Carrie: So there’s a exposure hierarchy where you’re kind of trying to start with maybe some things that would be easier for people to expose themselves to, and then gradually work up to harder and harder things.
Stacy: I always call it. I have this latter hierarchy that I always use with people. We’re taking it step by step. We’re not throwing you in the deep end and saying, “good luck I hope you swim at your worst level 10 fear”.We wanna baby step it. And some people can go in bigger chunks and some people, it takes smaller chunks. And so we really are working. Alongside with our client to make sure that it’s not too much and we’re monitoring it, we’re asking them, you know, what’s your anxiety level before this exposure? What is it during? What is it after we’re having them monitor that regularly? And we’re also doing it with them in session, as much as we can, because we know that in order to create habituation, which is why this treatment works so well for OCD.
We’re trying to really, in a sensory wire, your brain, you have this whole, your alarm system that’s going on and it’s telling you you’re in danger because of these thoughts. Images are urges when you’re not. And so you’ve developed this process of trying to rid yourself of those feelings, but it’s all based on this faulty alarm. So our job in ERP is to get that alarm when it goes off to recognize that it’s a false alarm, you’re not in any real danger. And that’s what ERP really is working towards.
Carrie: I’d like to tell people about this analogy. It’s almost like we have these pathways in our brain and there’s a saying that “The neurons that fire together, wire together”. Your brain has gone through this pathway of obsession, compulsion, obsession, compulsion, over and over.
And the more that you do, the compulsions and you, the more that you start to have the obsessions and you’re trying to get relief, but you’re stuck in this negative loop. It’s almost like a path through the woods. That’s really well worn. It’s been walked a lot. The sticks have been moved. It’s very easy to get through. And then when we’re trying to create behavioral change and new patterns, it’s like creating a new path in the woods.
There’s maybe some limbs down on it. It hasn’t really been walked through that time. So of course, it’s going to be uncomfortable when we do these new things. And we expose our brain to new experiences. It’s not always going to feel good, just like walking through the tall grass. There might be some bugs or things that you might encounter, but the more that you walk down that path, the more well worn it is. Just like you were talking about with habituation, the more that you’re able to expose yourself to something and reduce that anxiety, or learn to sit with that anxiety and know that it’s not gonna kill you. It’s going to be okay. You’re going to be able to work through it. The easier that path is gonna be able to take the next time. And it’s a process for sure.
Stacy: I love that. Actually, I love that metaphor. I think that’s a perfect explanation for what we’re trying to do is to get you to a place where you recognize.
That, yes, this is uncomfortable. And I’ll get through it and it won’t always feel like this. That’s the one thing over the years I’ve learned. Yes. Let me go back just a little bit. Everybody has the same thoughts that people with OCD have. They probably don’t have them as often, right? Because they don’t get stuck it’s they filter their filter works properly so they can take these thoughts that maybe aren’t very important and disregard them.
They have enough confidence, not certainty, but confidence that this is probably just a bad thought or just something that popped into my mind that I wouldn’t act down. The person with OCD though, for whatever reason, there’s a lot of mechanics in the brain. They get stuck on it and they say, why did I have this?
There must be a reason. What does it mean about me? And they internalize it. And then they start to think I’m bad or I’ve done. And that starts this whole, once you’ve latched on and gotten stuck on a thought, then it’s gonna be there more often. It’s like trying not to think about something. You’re gonna think about it. And so people with OCD it’s not that their thoughts are different from other people, but it’s that they get stuck on these thoughts and want to give them meaning. Why were they there?
Carrie: Stacy, I think that’s absolutely true and makes a lot of sense is that people do research about the general population. How many people have ever had a thought about driving their car off the road. There’s actually, I think about half of the people have had that type of thought and just even different thoughts about robbing a bank was one of them that I saw surprising sometimes how many people just have these thoughts go through their head. I have a fear of heights and so I will get certain places. And I shared with a friend who also has a fear of heights. I said, “do you like picture yourself falling from places because I do that”. And I thought to myself that was weird.
I didn’t realize that other people also have some of those thoughts too. And he was like, I also have that I struggle with. So it’s things like that, that if you allow yourself to get really attached to it and you can’t help it, because sometimes it’s, there are genetic influence. That happen with OCD and sometimes you just can’t help having these thoughts. You just pop in there. You don’t choose. I don’t think every time I go to a high place, let me visualize myself falling off of here. It just comes in. It just comes outta nowhere. What if I fell off of this thing and I died, you know, or I was permanently injured in some way, shape or form. And then it makes me want to not get close to any edge of any high thing.
Stacy: People often say, well, why does it latch on to some thoughts and not the others? The other thing we know is that it tends to latch on to things you value things you care about. One of the things that OCD seems to really attack is anything taboo, anything that would set you apart from someone else, anything that would make you bad or make you seem different. And so it really latches on and try to convince you in a sense, or have you doubt who you are as a person and the things that are most important to you. And I think that’s what makes it such a tormenting disorder. It goes after the things you care the most about.
Carrie: And that’s where we get to talking about. We’ve had people show in the past who have had children thoughts about either their children being hurt or thoughts about harming their children, that those can come in after they have children. They never had before they had children. Oftentimes people of faith will have scrupulosity, obsessions and compulsions because their faith is really important to them. People who are concerned about getting things done the right way are going may have obsessions compulsions about the, just so warm of OCD. That makes a lot of sense. I’m curious about, because I don’t know a ton about it, your work on NO CD. Tell me a little bit about that platform website.
Stacy: Sure. My work at NO CD is, you know, we are a very fast growing company.
And there’s a need out there for treatment. There’s a need for the right kind of treatment for OCD. OCD had, had an app for quite some time as my understanding. And then right around the time of the pandemic, there became a real need for therapy and it just has exploded. We’re helping so many people get this treatment that can be lifesaving. It really can be. We have a free app that you can download at treatmyocd.com. The cool thing about that is there’s like a little community in there. It’s sort of like a social media community where you can talk with people who also have OCD, and it’s very friendly community. That one of the most important things we’ve found is just knowing that there are other people out there who have this, who experience these things can be healing in itself, right?
Carrie: Sure.
Stacy: This not alone. And so the work that we’re doing is really trying to reach as many people as we can with affordable therapy. We know that many, many people can go upwards of 10 years before they get treatment and a proper diagnosis. And I can definitely vouch for that. I mean, I was 15 when I found out that this had a name. And the only reason I found out was 2020, this show kind of like a dateline show, aired an episode about OCD. And that’s how we found out that’s what I had. And then it would take me about seven years before I found somebody who could actually treat it, in a way that was manageable. And unfortunately back then we didn’t have the resources we have now where you can Google and you can type in and you can get just tons of information and, and misinformation. Right? That would’ve been a lifesaver back then. And, and we’re even seeing kids as young as five who are coming through for assessments and who have OCD. And so we’re catching it much sooner, which I really believe in. And I believe that that will be life-changing for them.
Carrie: Absolutely. That’s huge. Just the ability to have early intervention. One of the things that I really like about NO CD is that you take insurance. That’s so huge. I know in the Nashville area, most of the providers, and there’s a large treatment center, most of them don’t take insurance. And so people can spend hundreds, thousands of dollars trying to get the help that they need. And some people just aren’t able to do that with their financial situation.
Stacy: They are constantly adding more and more providers and trying to get more and more insurances to cover our services because it is such important work. And we see so many benefits. There are so many people who are getting better and it’s hard.
It’s hard to see the stories of people who can’t get the help they need, because. Insurance doesn’t cover it or, you know, it’s too expensive. And so it is, I think in general can be expensive depending on a lot of factors, but ERP in particular, but NO CD really does offer affordable payment plans for people who can’t afford. And so that’s been really great to see as well, people who wouldn’t normally get in treatment.
That’s what we’re all about. We want everybody who’s suffering from this disorder to at least have access to that because a lot of rural communities, I know where I live, there was no specialists. And the people that I see as members often will say, well, there’s one specialist that’s, you know, within an hour range, but they have a six-month or a year wait list. That’s, what’s so amazing about NO CD is you can get in within a week.
Carrie: Are these video session that you’re doing with people. I mean, it’s all Telehealth, right? Either through the app or the website.
Stacy: It’s all Telehealth. There’s actually was just a study that came out about it and about how effective it is. It really is. I mean, I honestly, as somebody who has done face-to-face therapy for many, many years prior to this, I can honestly say I don’t notice a difference because in some ways it’s actually more helpful because I’m in the home with them. And I can walk with them like they’ll device throughout the house and do exposures. And so in some ways it’s actually more beneficial because I’m there with them.
Carrie: I would agree with that. People being able to do those exposures in their own environment is really helpful and powerful. You’re able to do things that you wouldn’t be able to do in the office we have Telehealth. That’s something that people don’t realize. A lot of times they may look at Telehealth as, it’s a deficit or that’s not as good. But one thing that we learned through the pandemic when everyone was seeing their therapist online was how effective Telehealth can be.
Stacy: Sometimes I feel like people are even more open. In this setting, then they are face to face. There’s almost like a safety net there or something, but people are more open and seem to be able to express themselves more quickly than maybe in a face-to-face setting for whatever reason.
Carrie: Awesome. I like to ask people a question as we get towards the end of the podcast. And since some of this was about your personal story and experience with OCD, I just am curious what is something that you wish you could go back and tell your younger self who is struggling?
Stacy: I love this question. I get this question a lot, actually, cause I have had it for my entire life. I wish I could go back and say, you know, the things you’re worrying about, they don’t ever happen.
And when they do, you will get through it. You will because there’s no other choice. I wish I could get back time. I wish that I hadn’t spent so much time on this. That’s what I would tell myself.
I know it’s not a choice, obviously, as a kid, you don’t choose to have OCD and at the same time, I wish there had been someone to intervene to say, “Hey, this is a real thing, this is a disorder, this is how you treat it”. And then I would’ve been able to do that a lot sooner, but you can’t go back in time. You can’t undo the past. And so if it’s moving forward each day, I take it and I say, you know what? I’m not gonna waste any more time. Right? It’s already had a ton of time. That’s all it’s getting. And that doesn’t mean it’s perfect. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t creep up because it does. I’d be lying if I said otherwise, there are times when it’s hard, but it’s so much easier than it ever was. And I can truly say I’m 90% better and, and life is good. I wish I could just tell my little self, like, stop, stop being in your head. Just go have fun.
Carrie: I think that’s so relevant to people with, with any mental health issue is sometimes we can get so laser focused in trying to fix something that we miss, that we’re a whole person with social relationships, hobbies, dreams, goals, desires, that this is not who you are as a person, your diagnosis. You’re a whole person who struggles in this area. And yes, it does affect some of those other domains. And I’m not making light of that, but it’s much better if we’re able to say, “Hey, I’m a person who struggles with this rather than I have this”.
Thank you so much, Stacy, for taking the time to share with us your story and the work that you’re doing as a therapist on NOCD. We’re gonna put links in the show notes so that people who are looking for help or want to find out more information about you or NOCD. They can do that through the show notes.
Stacy: Thank you for having me on this show. I appreciate it so much. And I hope that there are listeners out there who recognize some of these symptoms and can get some help a lot sooner. And I appreciate you doing the work you do to get the word out there about this.
Carrie: Thank you. I enjoy this episode with Stacy and I hope that you do too. We may invite her back to enter some more specific questions about scrupulosity. If you have and already please be sure to join our Facebook group. We’re really trying to create a positive and supportive environment for people with anxiety and OCD. But then a little neglect full time about giving in near and hosting things but I really want to work on. Growing back online community this year. You find the link in the show notes.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Carrie: Welcome to Hope For Anxiety and OCD episode 73. I just have to do a little short shout out before we get started. Cause it’s actually coming out on my brother’s birthday. Happy birthday Paul, and hope that you have a good one. I am here with my good friend, Erica Kessie who we have known each other for over four years now. Did you realize that because.
Erica: Great.
Carrie: Erica actually through my business. It’s very first birthday party. When my business, By The Well Counseling, turned one and we were in the suite together. So that was just a really fun time. And my business just turned five this year. That was exciting too.
Erica: Wow. Five years old. What they say about five years, it takes you about five years to become profitable in your business.
Carrie: Wow. Well, fortunately for counseling, we’re able to do that a little bit earlier. Otherwise I wouldn’t still be here. Most businesses don’t last to five years though, right?
Erica: They don’t.
Carrie: So that’s, that’s exciting.
Erica: Yes, it is. Congratulations.
Carrie: Thanks. I wanted you to give us an update Erica, on your business, because I know that some things have shifted changed from when we recorded last, that was on episode nine, which was the very end. The very end of 2020, what’s been going on in your business in the last year and a half.
Erica: So many wonderful things. The more that you’re in business, the more that you get clear on who you serve and how you want to serve them. I have coined myself now, the leader’s healer, cause I wanted to broaden my target out to all leaders. Be mothers, doctors, nurses professionals, because I recognize with my own experience that sometimes leaders feel lost and in order to not be lost. It’s important for you to make sure you take care of yourself. That’s so important and putting yourself first, those who have servant hearts, right? They are leaders and they put everyone before themselves. So it’s important that they take care of themselves, do their own work.
Carrie: Right.
Erica: About own anxiety and their depression and imposter syndrome. And also if they do their own work, they will also be doing something that’s so important. And dear to my heart is to do no harm. I think a lot of people don’t talk about that. But there are many circumstances in which Carrie knows that counselors and therapists and even other leaders do harm in ways, because they haven’t did their own work. So I’m the leaders, healer and the entrepreneur therapist. I provide professional training and speaking, as well as civil little counseling and coaching alignment, executive coaching.
Carrie: One of the things that you do that I really appreciate is you help businesses and leaders, like you were saying, “understand the importance of counseling skills and how those can be useful in their business environment”.
Erica: I have a book called “Honey”. You need counseling skills. And these are soft skills as well as life skills. It is vision casting. A lot of even entrepreneurs don’t know the difference between vision and mission. So vision casting, mission creation, time management, communication skills, and thrive planning, which is it’s a strategic and personal plan to thrive. We have a plan for everything else. Why don’t we have a plan to thrive?
So there’s thrive plan for that.
Carrie: Awesome. Today we’re talking about boundaries, which I’m really excited about, I just.
Erica: I’m so excited.
Carrie: I’ve decided to dial some things back on the podcast and do some like 1 0 1 type episode. Let’s consider this boundaries 1 0 1 there’s lots of conversations we could have on boundaries. We’re gonna keep it really simple today for people because it’s a word that’s thrown around. And a lot of people don’t really understand what it means or how they can start to begin to even look at boundaries in their own lives or setting them. We’re in a society right now, unfortunately, where all, all kinds of lines are being blurred, lines between work and home, lines between professional relationships and personal relationships.
I asked a group of therapists today, I said, is professionalism dead. And we kind of had a chuckle about it, but I was serious, you know.
Erica: Yes.
Carrie: Because there’s a lot of people that are in professional roles that are acting in unprofessional ways. So this conversation on boundaries. Is super important in the same way between client and therapists. There have been lots of different ways that receiving therapy has changed. Whereas maybe, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago we would never have texted with a client. And I still don’t text with clients in that way, but some therapists, that’s how they set their schedule. We have to kind of talk about some of these things of boundaries lines, and we won’t get into all the ethics today.
Although that cause that’s gonna be another episode. I know that’s something that Erica is really passionate about is, good ethics for professionals and leaders. Let’s talk about what is a boundary, how would you define that for somebody?
Erica: I wanna keep it as simple as possible. There’s a book called it by Henry Cloud. He’s an older book and it’s called “Boundaries”. And the way he explains it is like having a fence in front of your house. Certain people can come in the fence. For example, your mailbox is outside the fence. The mailman only goes and handles that particular part of your property. Then you have individuals like the Amazon man. He comes to the door and he drops your package he’s off, but he doesn’t come in. Correct? Or you can even say, leave it there and don’t knock. Right? When you send message, when you create your package, then you have people that can come be in your living room, your kitchen.
They can even walk down the hall sometimes and be in the spare bedroom, but only certain people can be in your master bedroom, in your bathroom. Think about it that way. It makes it really simple on how we have to isolate out who deserves to be where in our lives we are our house. This is our temple. Okay. And only certain people should be able to come through our eyes, through our ears and to allow them to be a part of our space. These are guidelines for ourselves and for others to keep us safe.
Carrie: There’s internal boundaries. I think that we can even set within ourselves. I think a lot of times we think about boundaries with other people, but there’s internal boundaries that we can set within ourselves. Just kind of knowing our move and groove of life. For example, and I know this has to do with other people. But for therapists in terms of like how many sessions that we choose to do in a day, or, you know, how many clients we see, how many of them are going to be new clients. I know for me, it’s harder to meet with new people than it is to meet with people that I’ve known for a long time.
I already know how they’re going to act, to flow. They’re not gonna read me the wrong way or if, if I say something funny, they’re gonna be like, what is that? You know, they’ll call me out on it. Whereas if I have a new person, I have to be a little bit more cautious about what I say, how are they gonna receive this and so forth. So that’s kind of maybe an internal boundary within myself that I might set for myself, or I could tell myself, you know, a boundary is that I’m gonna shut off all my electronics at a certain time so that I can get a good night’s sleep. Can you think of any of those that you have for yourself?
Erica: Oh yes. Internal boundaries. AKA your discipline, your own discipline. I have a certain discipline as 12:00 I take lunch. No one has that time. One o’clock is usually my nap time. If I don’t have a nap, I usually have a nap another time during the day. I am Adam adamant about it.
I need a nap. It’s just good for me to have my siesta every day. And those are internal boundaries, but I have other boundaries regarding myself as far as making sure that I don’t overextend myself. I have to watch myself every day. Not to have the savior complex. I’m sorry, I’m adding in things that are more complex.
This is the perfect actually podcast to talk about the savior complex. None of us is Jesus. We need to not try to be Jesus.
Carrie: That’s right. We’re not out here to rescue everyone who’s in crisis.
Erica: Yes. And so we have to decide to remind ourselves. I have to remind myself every day, I call my reminder not to overextend myself, to watch all my obligations and watch my schedule to make sure I’m not doing too much boundaries of making sure that physically making sure that I eat. And I’m cognizant of everything that I put in my mouth. So really being intentional is my internal boundaries.
Carrie: Why do you think that boundaries are so important? Obviously what you’re talking about is boundaries relating to self care. Why else are boundaries important?
Erica: Boundaries let you know exactly where you end and somebody else or the environment begins. It’s a great way to make sure that you have all the things that you need and that you’re cognizant of all the components of your life in order for you to have harmony. It’s important for you to have harmonies physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, professionally, all these ways. And we have to be cognizant of doing that. That’s the hard work. That’s a lot of work actually to do, but it it’s the kind of work that we should be doing instead of putting ourselves out there. To help other people. It’s so easy for us to extend ourselves, to help other people and neglect ourselves.
So it’s so important to have boundaries with yourself and to be cognizant of taking care of yourself, because guess what, you know, everybody’s heard this, you gotta put your option mask on in order to help other people, or one thing that I say, going back to that vision, that we were talking about my vision for myself, which that’s why this is a boundary as well. Is, I will if I like and love myself so authentically and thoroughly that I overflow onto those who stand close. Part of that boundary is, I’m not gonna seek out people to help. They will stay close if they want my help. And I will make sure I focus on loving myself and going a step more into liking myself.
So sometimes we may love ourselves and we may not like ourselves. Right? So we have to like ourselves too, and know what we know like and trust about our self.
Carrie: Boundaries really connect with our values. We really connect with what’s important to us. So if I say that my daughter is important and you have a daughter too.
Erica: Yes.
Carrie: If we say our daughters are important to us, and then we don’t set up boundaries to protect that time that we have with our children. If I don’t take the time, set up boundaries to protect time that I have with my spouse or time for church and investing in my spiritual health. Not just church, but time at home where I’m reading, where I’m praying, then my values are not in alignment with my actions.
And then that causes all kinds of anxiety and internal conflict, right? I wanna be with my daughter, but I’m doing all of this over here. I’m taking on extra responsibilities. I don’t need to, you kind of call me out and say, you know, you’ve just had a child. Your normal is changed care. You have to accept that. You’re not gonna be able to go back and do all the things that you used to be able to do, which was a good call out, by the way, you know, you need to have friends like Erica in your life to call you out.
Erica: Well, you call me out too, is the end goal. Why are you doing this? This is so helpful for me, who run off trying to help people like what’s the end goal. We gotta get our money. We need to make sure we are. Moving towards getting money, not just doing all these things, because that’s how we need food, clothes, and shelter. That’s why we work. She calls me out too.
Carrie: Don’t do too much. I wanna talk about examples of situations that the people experience in life. That cause them to have difficulty setting boundaries. It caused them difficulty to be able to say no, or say, man, that’s an excellent opportunity, but it just doesn’t fit in my life right now. You know, maybe later, let, let’s talk about that another time. I mean, there’s lots of different ways that you can say no to something or say yes to something, but what are some situations people go through that cause them difficult their boundaries.
Erica: That’s a great question, Carrie. I don’t think people talk about the situations,
Carrie: Right?
Ericaa: When you grow up, you as a child, sometimes don’t wanna do something, right? And then your parent tells you you’re gonna do it. Okay. I have to abide by this person or I have to please. Most children spend time wanting to please their parent, guess what? Then they grow up being people pleasers. Then you have a problem saying no that’s having poorest boundaries. When you are unable to say no and get yourself involved in everybody trying to help people. Then if you have some kind of trauma or you’re a pain that happens in your childhood, you’ll have rigid boundaries around certain things.
Scenarios would be, you have a balls.
There’s a power differential between you too. You don’t want to what lose your job or being seen in a negative way or retaliation in any kind of way. So you say yes to things that are against your values. You can’t go spend time with your daughter because your boss wants you to work extra hours. There’s so many scenarios with our partners. We may not want to do something like they wanna watch anime all night. You’re like, I gotta go to bed and they’re like, we don’t never spend no quality time with me. That’s a guilt trip, FYI. Let’s going into those manipulative tools. Anyway have to be able to say the boundaries, but you may have a rift in the relationship that you don’t wanna experience because you had to assert yourself and say, “I don’t wanna do this”.
So you have to have good communication skills. You have to be able to assert yourself. You gotta be brave to hold your boundaries.
Carrie: Let’s talk about parenting for a little bit, because this is a huge issue. If you had parents who were like, I’m right, you’re wrong. I’m the adult, you’re the child. It reminds me of that dad in Matilda.
She’s smart enough to realize that some of the things that he’s doing are wrong. Right? As a child, she’s like, wait a minute, dad, that’s wrong. You’re cheating people up to go into a movie analogy, but that’s basically what he tells her, you know, I’m right you’re wrong. Then we’re not teaching kids to think for themselves.
And there’s no autonomy there that’s learned. So it’s, it’s finding this balance. You wanna set boundaries for your kids, but you wanna help them understand why those boundaries are there.
Erica: Yes.
Carrie: There’s a reason. There’s a difference between saying don’t you ever talk to a stranger, you know, and, and threats and those types of things, I’ll spank your behind If you do that and a parent who says, Hey, we don’t talk to strangers and let me sit down and tell you why I’m telling you, you don’t just run up to the guy that says he has puppies to show you. There are people out there that want to do your harm. Here’s the lines that are drawn. You know, I’m asking you to pick up after yourself because one day you’re gonna be an adult with a house and you’re gonna have it. Learn how to manage a household, not just your room. So if you can’t pick up your room, you’re not gonna be able to manage a household.
Erica: Oh my goodness. You understand this because also you used to work with children as well. And I also, we both specialize in planning, express for arts therapies. We understand that we need to respect them and honor their thoughts and honor their behavior and try to empathize the reason behind the behavior that they’re exhibiting. I always find that it’s the parents. If I need to get the parents straight, cause it’s not the kid, the kid does need a healthy relationship with somebody who was going to honor them, who was gonna respect and listen to them. You have to teach your children communication. You have to let them know the reason behind it. You don’t just say it’s because I said so.
Carrie: Right. Everybody at one point or another, I’m sure there’ll be some point where I say it, you know, so , I’m not gonna call anybody out for that. But I think growing up in a type of household where the boundaries were not just strict, cause a lot of people grew up in a strict household, but where the boundaries were too rigid really. I mean, you got in trouble practically for breathing in some of those households. It can be, people have a really, really hard time setting boundaries because they were always told, no, you can’t do that. And it was very much that authority position.
They probably felt less than. And, you know, growing up in some of those environments or let’s talk about something even further where there were environments of abuse, there were boundary lines being crossed. In that person’s childhood, it doesn’t matter what kind of abuse it was, physical, emotional sexual. There was a line that was crossed and it was basically told your rights, your needs, you know, were not valued, were not important at all. And there was a violation there. And so people who have had their boundaries violated often have a hard time setting them for themselves. I mean, is that something that you’ve seen as well.
Erica: Definitely. They don’t understand what healthy boundaries is. So let’s explain what that is let’s define that. And then also go and look things up. One thing that I say is don’t listen and wait for someone to define things for you. This is what I tell my daughter. Go and find out for yourself. Look it up, go to the library, Google it, ask around. That’s one reason how abuse happens is the isolation of the information and your experience with an exposure to things. So always define things for yourself. Let’s define healthy boundaries. That’s when you are able to say yes to something or no to something based on how you feel, you understand how you feel about the circumstance and it aligns with your values. Going back to what you said, your values, and you understand how to assert your boundaries and say clearly and not have a problem with saying clearly. Yes, I can do this because, or no. And guess what period.
You don’t even have to give any definition. If you don’t feel like it, you don’t wanna do it. It’s simple. You can say no and that’s it. And I know may, sometimes people feel like, I can’t say no, there’s gonna be backlash if I say no, but a lot of time. It is you that’s stopping you from saying no, it’s your fears. So you have to interact with your fear and ask that fear. What’s why are you coming up? What’s going on? There is fear and there’s love. So how can we bring love into this circumstance to kinda dissipate this fear that you have that you can’t say no for something you don’t wanna do.
Carrie: And it’s okay to have physical boundaries with people. I think I wanna throw that out there.
Erica: Yes.
Carrie: If you don’t feel comfortable, some people are huggers. I like hugs, but I’m more of a person that I want to hug people that are close to me, that I know really well, that I’m really comfortable with and have had that kind of relationship. Some people just wanna hug you the first time they meet you. I’m not quite Into that, you know, but, I’ll probably have an uncomfortable look on my face and kind of do one of those tap hugs or something like that, where you just kind of lightly tap ’em on the back. Hey, it things, things like that. If you have somebody maybe that you feel like is too touchy, you know how the, some people just wanna touch you when they talk to you.
Maybe this is not as much cause of COVID maybe we’re we’re keeping a little more distance. I don’t know. I remember there was one time where I was talking to somebody. And a kind of a dinner thing and they just kept touching me. And I didn’t say anything about it, but I thought, well, this is really, you know, kind of odd and thinking about it just in terms of interpersonal context and things. But if you don’t want somebody to hug you, or if you’re in a dating relationship and you’re not comfortable.
Erica: I’m think about that Carrie all the way.
Carrie: With certain things, then it’s okay for you to say, I’m not there yet in the relationship. I don’t wanna kiss you yet. You know, I’m not there. Those are examples of physical boundaries that we can set for ourselves. And if you’re in a dating relationship, you probably need to have some of those conversations pretty early about where you’re at, what your expectations are, what you want, what you don’t want, because those can really go south fast. If you’re not upfront with the other person absolutely.
Erica: It’s all about having the right fit. If you feel like you can’t say no to someone, then you probably need to investigate that relationship about why you feel unsafe to say no.
Carrie: And regardless you brought up bosses earlier, and if you were an adult
to adult relationship. That’s what we’re trying to seek out. Even though there is some power differential there, you do have to respect your boss. You do have to listen to them. You do have maybe, probably some things from your job that you can’t say no to, but let’s say for example, that your boss hires you. This happens all the time, America, right? Your boss hires you and says, “Hey, you’re gonna work Monday through Thursday, 10 hour or you know, you’re only gonna put in 40 hours a week. That’s all we’re gonna ask from you”. And then next thing you know, you’re into the job two months later. Well, you know, we need somebody come in on Fridays. We just don’t have anybody come in on Fridays. And can you please, we really are gonna need you here this Friday. That’s an example where somebody has a freedom, perfect freedom to set a boundary, even though that’s their boss, even though they’re in authority role.
Erica: Yes, very much so like right now we have the great resignation that’s happening. Cause most people recognize that I don’t wanna be disrespected. I don’t wanna be disregarded for my personal life. And this is my job description. I’m supposed to be able to deliver this, but you also have to be courageous enough to speak up and say, that’s what it is.
Everybody knows the 80 20 rule when you’re working 80% of the people are not working or lacks of days old on how they work. And 20% are doing most of the work, right? Don’t be 20%. You have to decide that I told plenty of my clients, you should probably work. Give them 20% of your energy. And she actually got an award for her work ethic. After she did it, but also I told another lady who was having heart issues and stress and anxiety about working to slow down and only give them 20%. And her heart palpitations stopped.
Carrie: Wow.
Erica: Sometimes we do it to ourselves. A lot of this. Is, we have to step back now. It’s hard to do it in a job that you went in there and I’m gonna fix it all. And now everybody think you gonna keep on fixing it all. But if you go to another job or you could try to fix help with the boundaries, boundaries are easier with new circumstances sometimes because.
Carrie: That’s true. They’re definitely.
Erica: You can say this is who I am and they don’t know you to be a pushover. They don’t know you to be a doormat or a people please. But when you really wanna decide for yourself that boundaries need to happen, sometimes environment has to an environment change has to happen too.
Carrie: I don’t think I can stand behind giving your employer 20%. I think you’ve got to really work as an unto the Lord, you know, as a scriptural principle. And so I think that you have to put forth the effort to do a good job, but there’s, there’s a difference between doing a job where it’s like you said, kind of killing your health. And, and if you’re at that point, then I think that a conversation needs to happen to with your employer or your spouse. If you need to take a step back or whatever, to be able to say, you know, this job really is affecting my physical health, my mental, emotional health. And sometimes people have to either work less or they have to pick a less stressful job or different work environment. Maybe they need to be working from home.
Whatever the case is there are a variety of different boundaries and it’s okay to say to your employer, you know, I feel like I’m doing too much. I feel like the workload is too heavy. I don’t think that I need some help with this. How can we delegate some of these responsibilities? Is that okay? That those types of conversations I think are super important because unfortunately not just employers, but if someone sees that you are willing to have your boundaries crossed time after time after time again, like if you come in on that Friday, just this Friday. And then next thing you know, two Fridays later. You know, we need you again on Friday. It’s like, no, I agreed to work Monday through Thursday was our agreement. I’m not gonna be able to come in on Friday.
I had a friend a long time ago who, one of his first jobs he worked at McDonald’s when he was a teenager. And he said to the people, when he got hired, he said, “Hey, I just want you to know that I will work any day, but Sunday I’ll work, you know, the evening shift I’ll work late at night. I’ll I’ll work in the morning whenever I can”. Obviously it was the summer or something. He wasn’t in school. I’ll work here, but I will not work on Sundays. And so is that okay with you? I just want you to know that, is that okay? They said, “sure, that’s fine we can accommodate your schedule”. So the first time they scheduled him for a Sunday, he said, “now you remember that I told you I’d work any day, but Sunday and I’d work all these different shifts. I’m going to church on Sunday and I won’t be here. I just wanted to let you know that ahead of time, because that was our agreement”. And you know what, they had to honor that at the end of the day, cause that was what they had agreed to. But had he said, they put me on the schedule. I’ve gotta do it. I’ve gotta go in. They would’ve probably continued to schedule him for some days. And then that would’ve been a violation of his, not just his boundary, but his values of church and spiritual rights.
Erica: His religious rights as well. I wanted to go back really quick to say that most of my clients are really high functioning individuals that give like 200% work. So I have to say 20% to help them to edge off.
Cause if I told them only give them 50%, they would still give them 150%. So I’m trying to get them to edge off and not do so much because they’re a lot of their energy, cause they’re just high functioning individuals who feel like they have to work very, very hard. Those are usually my clients. I have the high functioning anxiety clients most of the time.
Carrie: So you, you have to throw out something drastic to get them to dial it down just a little bit. Okay, let’s talk about how do you know a boundary has been crossed?
Erica: Great question. First of all, you can feel it. It’s a gut feeling.
Carrie: Yes.
Erica: You can feel it. The thing is we ignore our feelings because going back to what we said about growing up, we had those good feelings and our parents shut it down. We were silenced. So you think, this is the feeling that I always have here, but I had to do it anyway. So I’m just gonna go ahead and do it anyway, like surrender to. I’m saying if you have this feeling, listen to it and acknowledge it. I feel statement is amazing. Go ahead and figure out what the feeling is. I feel irritated, frustrated. It doesn’t matter who this is, whoever you’re talking to, you can say this statement. I feel when you, whatever they did, I would like you to there’s that boundary. I would like you to whatever you would like them to do. That’s very explicit on what they can do to help you not feel frustrated. Now sometimes people do not respect your boundaries.
First of all, if they don’t respect your boundaries, then you have to go ahead and recognize that in this relationship, this person does not respect me. You have to decide if you’re gonna continue to be disrespected, or you’re want to figure out a way that this relationship is something that you maybe need to not have in your life.
And the other thing is, other than disrespecting you, you have to make sure that the individuals are clear, very clear on the boundary that you set. A lot of times, we’re kind of, you make me unhappy. I will like you to make me happy no like.
Carrie: What in the world does that mean?
Erica: Right. What does happiness to you? So that means that you gotta do some internal work to know what your boundaries are. I think a lot of times people wanna have boundaries. But they haven’t figured out what they like, how they want people to treat them. What do you want? I ask you for that. I ask a child that what they like want they know.
Carrie: Yes.
Erica: I know because they’re so accustomed to accommodating others, especially women, Carrie, let’s talk about that, that story that you said it was a man.
I haven’t heard many stories like that when a woman doesn’t to it and go ahead and go with.
Carrie: I mean, you look at women are much less likely to negotiate their salary going into a job. Because they just feel like, well, someone’s giving me a number. That’s what they’re comfortable with.That’s just what I’m supposed to take. And going from there, you know, that’s a boundary. If you say, you know, I have the skills and experience and I can show on paper that I should be making this much money or somebody else offered me this, are you able to match that? Or I need to be making my current salary. That’s okay to have that boundary. I think in terms of going back to like, feeling like a boundary has been crossed for me, it usually comes up as anger.
A lot of times, like, I’ll feel this feeling of anger. And a lot of times, you know, I’ve been in business five years. I talked about that. And so when I feel like something’s not working and it was frustrating me, I would say, okay, Something’s frustrating me about this process or this system, what do I need to change? But that anger came first and that was a good gut check for me. Okay, I’m frustrated, I’m angry. Why am I frustrated and angry? Okay. Well, because maybe I took on this client that wasn’t the best fit for me. You know, maybe it was a referral from a colleague and I felt like I really needed to take that person on.
Maybe it was somebody really begged me. They couldn’t find a therapist. And so those days are long gone. If I don’t feel like people are a good fit, I don’t have any problems, you know, referring them out or something.
Other things, I’m just thinking of other things that came up were phone calls. I was spending a lot of time on the phone with, you know, people that hadn’t really researched who I was or what I do and was trying to, I literally was trying to help everyone that called me on the phone, whether they wanted anger management classes. And I didn’t have anything to do with that, whether they wanted, you know, something for custody issues with their children, which I didn’t do. And so here I was trying to find resources for people and pick up the phone every time I called, because I thought, well, these people really need help and I need to be the one to help them.
I had to really let that go because. I recognize you cannot help every person that calls you on the phone. That is impossible. You’re not the right person to help everybody that calls on the phone. Some of them need other things and it’s okay. You don’t have to pick it up every time it calls, you can let it go to voicemail and you can return the call later. It’s gonna be okay. It’s not gonna be a huge thing, but that was some hard boundaries for myself in terms of, setting boundaries just in my business, interpersonally in terms of working with clients. I just know that for me, a lot of times it comes up as anger or as a gut feeling, the gut feeling is like, you know, it’s just like this. Something’s just not right about that.
Erica: Dare they did that to me, you know.
Carrie: You feel that sense of like and dictation.
Erica: It does not feel good. It’s like a gut and hard feeling. And I immediately, I think about my feelings, like, what is that? What is that? I immediately go to what’s the feeling. Okay. And I do, and I feel saving, even if I don’t say it to that person, I have to write it. I have to say it to get it out of me. Otherwise it’s going to just eat at me. And then I figure out a way to talk with them. Sometimes I just write it in my journal and it’ll all work out on its own in some kind of way in a conversation without me specifically saying anything, especially if I’m really mad about it.
Carrie: Okay. That’s good. I mean, I think that that’s a really good pathway. Of like teaching people how to do that work, how to tune in internally and then try to figure out like, okay, what’s the next step? What is that next step that I need to take here?
Erica: Usually when you feel that you’re triggered in some kind of way, what is it taking you back to going back to a scenario where you were disrespected or dishonored or felt the same feeling before?
Carrie: That’s good talking about trauma trigger. That come up for people.
Erica: Because you didn’t set a boundary. So then it’s always gonna keep showing up, cause the boundary’s not there.
Carrie: Let’s talk about how do boundaries align with the Christian faith? I think people have this view that if I’m a Christian kind of going back to, I’ve gotta help everybody.
I’m to be loving towards people. And if I say no to them, I’m not being loving towards them. But I mean, we kind of gave that example of parents and their children. You can’t always say yes to your children because that’s gonna lead to disaster. There are times where you need to say no for their own, even personal safety.
Erica: Boundaries is part of the Christian faith. I know that it says, okay. And we kind of capitalize on that part of being selfless and don’t be selfish, but the Bible does talk about, like, there is boundaries, the 10 commandments are boundaries there.
Carrie:Yes they are.
Eric: You know, there are other things that are told to us lot and his wife don’t look back. Right? That was a boundary. And then we saw the consequences. You have to have consequences too, to your boundaries. You can’t just have these boundaries. It’s like you are a Chihuahua, Chihuahua. You’re a Chihuahua barking saying you, this is your boundary, but you’re not doing anything. And people are gonna keep pushing over. What’s the consequence that there has to be some kind of consequence. To pushing over your boundaries.
I just wanted to mention that, but in nutrition faith, we have boundaries. They are parents throughout the Bible. I don’t think people look for those because I’m gonna say some, I’m gonna say some, I think that a lot of people who may be leading flocks want them to follow along with what they are saying. So if you tell them, empower them in too many ways. They then are thinking for themselves and not following along. So they’re now share that kind of information.
Carrie: Well, I, and I think that’s why we have to go to following Jesus in the Bible versus following man, you know. Because not everyone is following Jesus in the Bible who is in leadership.
Erica: Too many times. I’ve had some scenarios of, man, pastors doing many things that should not have happened or I felt it. I was like, this is not supposed to be right. But it wasn’t like no one said to me that this person is not supposed to do it, but he’s up in front of me telling me that the gospel telling me the way to go, but it doesn’t feel right. You always have this feeling. It doesn’t matter what kind of leader it’s there. You have to listen to yourself. You gotta tap in and find your own answers.
Carrie: I picked out a couple of Jesus examples for how do boundaries align with the Christian faith? There was in Matthew 12 Jesus refuses to perform a miracle.
So people were saying to him, perform a miracle to show us, you know, that you’re the Christ. And the funny thing is Jesus was already performing miracles. By this point, it wasn’t like this was gonna be a new thing. They had already seen evidence that he was a Messiah and he told them, no, I’m not gonna do that because you’re basically you’re unbelieving. And you’re showing that you don’t have faith. You know, and I’m not gonna give you a sign.
Erica: I’m not gonna be a politic for you like.
Carrie: Not gonna perform miracles on demand. There was a time in Luke nine 60 that the verse, you know, let the dead bury their own dead. There was a man who he had said, Jesus said, come follow me. The man said no. First let me bury my father. And Jesus said, well, let the dead bury their own dead. It wasn’t, a cruel heartless type of thing. He was wanting to wait around for like some year long ritual that was gonna be happening. It was, what do you call that? It’s more about tradition than actually. Just a regular funeral. We have, we have probably really quick funerals compared to what they did back then in the whole process.
So Jesus was like, no, you really need to come follow me. You know, you don’t need to basically make an excuse about why you can’t come at this point. I mean, Jesus told the rich young ruler, he had to sell all his stuff too. It wasn’t really about him selling his stuff. It was more about your heart’s not in the right place.
Erica:Yes.
Carrie: To be following me. So these are all different examples where Jesus really put people in their place in a lot of ways. And times that we look at that and we’re like, that’s really radical that he said that, or I don’t know if you do that. Sometimes I read the Bible. I’m like, I can’t believe he just said that. Wow. That was.
Erica: I love it.
Carrie: You know, that was intense. .
Erica: My daughter has the Bible now we’re reading again. I loved reading the Bible. It’s great like if you read it, so I think people take, read it as if it’s a book and it’s great. It”s so much going on to so many heroes. It says that Jesus is a first superhero and that there’s sons of other heroes like Ruth and like, Esther, it’s just like, it’s radical. It’s a, it really talks about all the situations that we have even now in trying to relate to others. Jesus does plenty of parables talking about boundaries and how you should interact and what’s your value system and how to have your certain Christian values that I feel like are not upheld. They should be in a real authentic way.
Carrie: I was so glad that we are having this conversation, you know, essentially a, a boundaries 1 0 1, because there’s so many people that misunderstand what a boundary is, or they don’t think that they can set them with a boss, with a parent, with a spouse and boundaries are for many different areas of our lives. We have to learn how to set them respectfully and so fort. Let’s talk about boundaries with a parent, because I think that’s another one people carry their childhood into their adulthood of, you know, well, this person is my parent. I have to honor them and I have to respect them according to the Bible. So I can’t say no. If my parent wants to call me at all hours of the night or if my parent wants to just drop by, I just have to be okay with that because that’s my mother. That’s my father.
Erica: I’m the one to talk to about this. Or I was in my internship, I was trying to create this group called “Toxic mom relationships and how to manage them”. So when I talk to every people, just, you know, one on one, every last person has some kind of issue. With they mama or they daddy, or both of.
Carrie: We call those family of origin issues. Everybody has to deal with their family of origin issues.
Erica: This is actually the first, I think people they’ll have problems in their relationships, their intimate relationships, you know, sexual intimate relationships.
And it be the same problems that they have with their parent, like the same boundary issues, being people pleaser, or thinking that you have to say yes to everything. When you become an adult, like first of all, you were supposed to be expect when you were a child, maybe didn’t happen. You have to understand.
Now you’re an adult. Okay. And you’re taking care of yourself. And even if you’re not, cause I have a lot of college students, I have individuals who are still on their parents’ insurance until they’re 26 and they’ll think, I can’t say no, cause I’m still tied to them. You have to decide. What’s right for you.
Your life is your life. It’s not your parents. I think a lot of times, some people have issues with feeling like they are connection or, you know, a part of their parent instead of them being a whole person and they have their own thoughts and their own feelings and their own way of doing things that fits best for them. And you have to going back to being brave. Being brave to say and speak up for yourself. Now, let me just tell you if your parents love you, love transcends all of this, and it’s opposed to transcend all of this. And if they reject you because you asserted your boundary, then maybe later on, they will think more about this relationship and not. Let it be severed, but you get to have your boundaries and it’s important that you have them and you have to assert them. You have to be clear on what and who you are.
Cause a lot of clients say, my parents don’t even know who I am. You haven’t shared who you are with them because you’re afraid to share who you are with them. And then a lot of parents say, all my kid only calls me once a week or I only see ’em on holidays, probably because you have no idea who they are and they are afraid to show you who they are. And it’s such a sad circumstance to live in a life where a person brought you into this world, but you can’t share who you are with them.
Carrie: That is a sad state. This has been such a good chat and I hate to cut it off, but I know we’ve gone a little while and maybe at some point I’ll do boundaries 2.0 or, or we can do it or something like that. We’ll figure it out. But I think that this has been a great intro for people to understand really what’s a boundary and hopefully it’s got people thinking like, maybe through the podcast, like maybe there is a boundary that I need to set with myself or with other people in my life and knowing that. Not only is that okay to do so, but that’s a healthy thing. And we can follow, you know, in Jesus’ example, in terms of, of setting boundaries.
Erica: Yes. Going back to the book I recommended was Henry Clouds “Boundaries”. It is actually Christian based. So if you’re listening to this podcast, it puts a lots of information in there about Christian examples of how you should move in your boundaries in that you are not meant to be selfless, but you have boundaries. And I do wanna be before I end, is to talk about hunting unique counseling skills, because that book is a book that you can get on Amazon that I wrote and boundaries is in that book.
So I talk about it in that book, as well as other counseling skills that are needed, like communication and time management.
And lastly, I have a freebie. Because it’s, I am this boundary thing is so important. So I have a freebie it’s 11 page ebook called “Boundaries guide four leaders”. You can get that at www dot heal yourself, grow.org. Heal yourself. grow.org. And you can get free freebie on how to even discover and set boundaries under eight categories and even affirmations in order to hold your boundaries and reiterate your boundaries to others.
Carrie: Okay. And we’ll put those links in the show notes too. If people are listening to this in their car and didn’t have a chance to write that down so they can go back to the show notes and, find the links in there to your book and to the, boundaries resource that you have there. That’s awesome.
Erica: It’s so great. I love, I love talking with you.
Carrie: We have good times. I had so much fun having this conversation with Erica about boundaries 1 0 1. Stay tuned for boundaries 2 0 2. I may do that as a solo episode another time. We do have some great interviews coming up in the next month on breath prayer and on exposure and response prevention. So stay tuned for those episodes. If you like our show, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with someone else. So I know that you know, someone in your life probably who’s having difficulty with setting boundaries or they feel like if they set a boundary, that’s somehow un-Christian of them to do so. So feel free to forward this episode onto them. Thank you so much for listening.
Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee, opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By The Well Counseling.
Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 69. If you are new to the show, my name is Carrie Bock. I’m a licensed professional counselor in the state of Tennessee, and our show is all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and other.
Today’s show is about learning to let go. And it’s for help for people who are struggling with hoarding. And I wanted to say a little bit upfront to give credit to where credit is. Some of this information is taken that I’m gonna share with you from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders also known for short as the DSM, as well as the Book buried in Treasures by David Tolin, Randy O. Frost, Gail Steketee. I hope I pronounce that last name specifically correctly. They have done a great job putting together research and provide practical advice in their book.
And then some of the material I’m going to share today is just based on my own personal experience of working with clients who have struggled with hoarding, I’ve made up various examples. They are not true clients examples, but they’re based on variations of things that I actually have.
Why in the world are we talking about hoarding on a show for Anxiety and OCD? Well, we are talking about hoarding because courting is an OCD spectrum disorder in the DSM five. So there is a section on OCD followed by hoarding. Hair-pulling skin picking. So there’s a spectrum of some different things that are classified under OCD that the DSM is what counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists use to diagnose people. So there’s various criteria in there for those of you who aren’t familiar with the DSM, I should not just assume that you know what that is and I apologize.
A lot of people don’t realize that hoarding is part of the OCD spectrum of disorders. So let’s look at what are the actual criteria for being diagnosed with hoarding. There’s a persistent difficulty discarding or parting with possessions, regardless of their actual value. We all know someone who collects various things.
And some of those click tools may be really worth something a person hoarding things that are really valuable in their possessions that they could sell for money, but they also may be holding on to things that actually don’t have any value. It could be junk mail, recycling things, maybe that once had value, but have worn down and are no longer good. Or they’ve been sitting in an attic somewhere where they’ve overheated and deteriorate.
The difficulty getting rid of items is due to a perceived need to save the items in distress associated with discarding them. So there’s a need to say the item and we’re trying to not be in distress because when we try to get rid of things, there’s a level of emotional or psychological distress that comes with it.
The difficulty discarding, possessions results and accumulation of possessions that congest and clutter active living areas and substantially compromised their intended use. That’s the third criteria in the DSM. So for example, if you have a guest bathroom, but it’s so full of extra toilet paper, paper towels, and laundry detergent that you extreme coupon found on sale that you can’t actually get in that shower.
That guest bathroom, or maybe there’s a kitchen that’s so cluttered that you can’t actually get in there and cook anything in that. The fourth criteria is that it inhibits functioning often, socially, for example, people who struggle with hoarding may not be able to invite anybody over. They may isolate themselves from other people due to their hoarding disorder. And there is also a potential to add on what is called a modifier to the diagnosis, which is an excessive acquisition, meaning that they keep acquiring items, keep bringing them into the.
So let’s talk about how common is hoarding. Hoarding affects actually two to 6% of the population, according to the DSM, over 15 million people in the US. That’s a pretty high number and it’s actually a small percentage of people that struggle seek help. Usually, there are other people trying to seek help on their behalf. They see this behavior as a problem, and the people that do seek help may have some kind of external pressure on them to get better. So maybe their spouse is really upset is cause causing some intense conflict in the mirror.
Maybe they’re single and they want to have a relationship, but they feel like, okay, I can’t even invite anybody over. So I don’t feel like I can date successfully. Maybe they just want to be more socially connected in examples, such as retirement, maybe someone is trying to downsize and move from a full, you know, three bedroom house to a smaller town home, something of that nature, and they’re having trouble and they might kind of seek help for this issue. Or they may have. Some kind of government, external pressure, maybe the codes department has been called on them. Someone’s complained about, you know, rubbish in the yard. Maybe social services has gotten involved either our children and someone’s come in and said, Hey, you’ve really got to clean this area up.
Those people don’t necessarily want to seek help on their own, but they’re kind of backed into a corner and have to, or otherwise they’re not going to be able to get what they want. Hoarding typically runs in families. And about half of the people who struggle report also having a relative who hoards as well. So whenever we’re looking at things that run in families, it’s kind of hard to tease out. Is that because there are some genetic components, is that because this is a learned behavior. If we’re seeing other people do something, obviously where you may have a tendency to pick up on. It’s quite possible that the individual grew up in a family where there were certain messages surrounding items that they internalize and then therefore are living out in their adult life.
Maybe some examples are that item was a gift. You can’t give that away. Somebody really thought of you and they gave you that item. You got a hold on. Or, you know, you need to hold onto this item because you might actually need that some day. Yeah. You’re not using it right now, but it may really come in handy later. We have to catch that sale. We’ve got to buy things, even if we don’t need them quite yet while they’re on sale. So how does. This hoarding develop will. It seems like there are some genetic and temperamental components and that’s where the authors of the buried in treasures did some research. They put people in MRI machines and they were having them make decisions while they were actively looking at the areas of their brain that were over-activated or under activated.
It’s actually really interesting. And I encourage you to go get the book and read on that. If you struggle with hoarding or if you know someone who struggles, there’s also a lot of advice in the book for family members and how to approach your loved one as well. So that may be beneficial if you’re listening on behalf of a loved one, who’s struggling. What they found through this study was that there were different levels of activity and key parts of the brain between the person struggling with hoarding and the person in the typical population. They had a harder time categorizing their own stuff, but it didn’t interfere with them categorizing other people’s.
So seeing certain things as special kind of can be a common issue. And so then if it’s special, it kind of gets its own category. And we can’t put things together. In other categories, there are some common struggles and overlap that it’s seen in people who struggle with hoarding in terms of difficulty with attention, making decisions.
There you tend to be more creative because they look at items and think, oh, well, we could use it this way. Or I could use that to do this, that somebody else may not necessarily see the value in something. There may be a tendency to want to do everything perfectly like struggling with perfectionism and a tendency to procrastinate, to put things off, you know? Okay. I really do want to organize this. I feel like it’s gotta be perfect. So then I put it off because I can’t do it. You know, it’s overwhelming. Maybe someone has, for example, a train collection and they want to sell this train collection, but first they have to organize the train collection maybe by type of year, the year that it came out.
And then I have to figure out how am I going to sell them. Am I going to put them in a yard sale? Well, no, that maybe seems a lot of work to label everything. And then who wants to do a yard? So with only trains, well, I could put them on Facebook marketplace, but then I have to take these pictures and figure out how do I list that? And if I listed on marketplace then I have to meet up with somebody and where am I going to meet up with them? And if I post it on another website to sell it online, you know, I’ve got to take these pictures and figure out how I’m going to get payment. The Venmo app, you know, what do I do?
I use PayPal and then there’s a sense of exhaustion and just feeling defeated like, oh, this feels like it’s going to be too much work to make this happen and ended up in decision overload.
We ended up in decision overload. What happens? We just have this tendency to shut down and not do it. Another issue is the sense of feeling sentimental attachment. Now we’ve all had some level of this, right? We have an item. It’s not necessarily worth anything to anyone else, but to us, it’s tied to a memory or a specific time in our life.
And we think, “Okay, I don’t want to let that go because the attachment to this object reminds me of positive things where it reminds me of an important person in my life.” Maybe it was something that they gave me or something that we did together. One thing I’ve noticed in my work with people who struggle with hoarding is that they have a tendency to view their better days as being in the past. So they have these items that allow them to reminisce about the past, where the better days were, for example, if an individual used to surf, let’s say they lived by the ocean. Now, maybe they don’t live by the ocean or they don’t go surfing anymore. Maybe they’ve had an injury where they can no longer.
But yet they have a collection of surfing supplies and you know, they’ve got the surfboard, they’ve got the wax that goes on the board. Other things that I don’t even know about surfing, but they have the wetsuits, everything that goes with surfing. They’ve got a whole collection of stuff yet. They’re not using it.
They’re not going to use it because they don’t surf. But when I look at that, I think, man, wasn’t that really great when I could get out in the water. Feeling the wind on my face and being catching a wave. It’s awesome. So that’s maybe just one example of how someone might hold on to items to really reminisce about good things that they experienced, even though they don’t need the items or they’re not using the. We’ll talk about a little bit later in terms of healing from that people may hoard and hold onto things because it’s a part of their identity. They may view themselves as a collector like, oh, this is a collector’s item. I have all of these collector or board games from years and years ago that I want to hold on to probably are worth something.
I maybe a person holds on to craft supplies because they want to view themselves as an artist or painting supplies, even though they don’t paint, but they would like to be able to do some of those things. I know that for myself having been a foster parent, I had a lot of kid items around the house and it was hard to get rid of some of those things because being a foster parent obviously had been my identity for that time period.
And I didn’t know really what the future held for me. You know, maybe I would marry someone with kids and what if I needed some of these items? It was a process that I had to go through to realize, you know, I’m not living that life anymore. That’s not my identity. So I don’t need to hold on to things tied to that identity.
People may also struggle because they get a high from acquiring possessions. Oh. I saw a great sale at the thrift store. I got these pants for half off and I got this item and look, it was only a dollar. I went to this yard sale and isn’t this awesome. And they may buy stuff that they don’t need just because they feel like it’s a good price. And then there’s this like elevation of self-worth and value that they feel of being able to find this good deal. Now I mentioned the book buried in treasure. This book is a CBT-based book. So it was based on cognitive behavioral therapy. And that’s the approach that they take to overcoming hoarding.
It’s very good material. And one thing that that approach hasn’t addressed really that I’ve seen is this tendency of something that I’ve noticed connected to hoarding and. The unresolved and at times traumatic grief and a loss that seems to come with it, this attachment to items that are tangible way of keeping a connection between the person and something or someone that they have lost.
It’s not always a loved one. When we talk about grief and loss. But it can be, it can be a situation where they’ve lost a loved one. A spouse has died and they feel like they just can’t get rid of their stuff. They’ve got to hold onto it because somehow that is connected to the memory of that person. And if they let it go.
They feel like I’m going to lose that person all over again. It also, the loss can be connected to things that they used to be doing, but aren’t doing anymore. So I gave the example of like being a foster parent in my own life. Other people, they may have been a Sunday school teacher when they were younger.
They may have coloring pages. They may have flannel graphs for anyone who remembers those things. Who are you? You stick the picture on the flannel. Nobody even uses that anymore, but someone might be holding onto it going, oh, that was such a good time. Like when I was a Sunday school teacher and pouring into the little kids and wasn’t that fun and awesome.
So really going through and grieving those losses. We’ll talk about this later is an important part of the healing process. Because if you don’t grieve those losses that are connected to these items, you’re not going to be able to get rid of the items. I remember another personal example for myself, of some things that I’ve struggled with getting rid of.
I had an entire room of play therapy tools. At my old office, this is now two offices ago. I had a specific room dedicated to seeing children and made a decision at that point in my practice that I didn’t want to work as many evenings. I wanted to kind of prepare for hopefully my own family life. At some point wanted to have more work-life balance.
I wasn’t seeing a whole lot of kids and it didn’t make sense to have this entire room full of. However, it was hard to let go of those things because I had acquired them over time. Over years of working with children, probably I don’t know, five to seven years. And that was hard for me to say, I’m no longer a play therapist.
I’m no longer doing this type of work. And what if I regret this decision? I, I get rid of all this stuff and then decide, I want to work with kids. Yeah, of course, that is a possibility, but that didn’t happen to me. I’m actually very happy and pleased with that decision. And I sold those toys to a friend who was going to do more types of play therapy, expressive therapy, and hopefully got some good use out of those.
Now that I’ve given you an overview, talk through some examples. I want to talk about the. Things that can be done to help. If you recognize that this is a problem within yourself, what are some things that can be done to learn, to let go of items, to not have to continue dealing with wording anymore?
Number one is recognize that this is a problem that you need help with. That is really hard for any issue that we’re facing to admit that we need help with something. As we talked about before, oftentimes. People who are struggling with hoarding either. Don’t recognize that they need the help, or they recognize that they have a bit of a problem, but they think they can manage it on their own.
Now you’re going to need different types of help and support. You’re going to need some professional support. Hopefully, you can find someone in your community or online, a therapist who has worked with hoarding in the past to give you that professional support and perspective, you’re going to need some personal support, not people who are going to come in and be overbearing or rushy to get rid of stuff but are going to come alongside with you and work with you at your own pace. These are going to be people maybe that can help you bring some stuff to give away, to, to donate. Maybe they can help you move some furniture out of your house. Or they can just provide that encouragement in moral support of just saying, you know, I know this is really hard for you, but I’m so proud of you that you are tackling this issue in your life. That goes a long way. Oftentimes we underestimate the power of personal support for someone who is struggling with a mental health issues. And we don’t need to underestimate that because it’s very valuable. Now you may need. Medical help. Um, you may need to look at medication as an option, especially if you have co-occurring disorders, something like ADHD, that’s getting in the way, anxiety, depression, then, you know, you may look at medication as an option to treat some of those things so that you can go through the behaviors and really tackle especially if you are working at this from a cognitive behavioral standpoint and you’re having trouble making progress, I always encourage people who don’t want to take medication to really, okay. We’ll try therapy, those tools, the self-help things for a little while. And then if you’re not making progress, maybe we’ll circle back around and evaluate whether medication might be an option at that point.
Step two, you’re going to have to commit time and I’m talking to them. Every day or at least five days a week to commit to the process of recovery, to commit to the process of cleaning up your space. Obviously, it didn’t get that way overnight and it’s not going to be cured overnight. You’re not just going to have an extreme home makeover most likely now. The book. And then I talked about recommends really building up, I believe from maybe 15 minutes a day to eventually getting to a point where you’re working on this an hour a day to really make tangible progress, three, develop a positive view of the future. We talked about how people who struggle with hoarding can be very past-oriented.
The good times are behind me reminiscing. Wasn’t that awesome when we did this or that. So I really want to encourage you for a Christian standpoint to visualize yourself, blessing people with the items that you have and finding joy. In giving, because there really is a joy that comes from giving to others that would be beneficial for you to tap into and it’ll help ease the pain of getting rid of certain items.
I know that that’s been my experience in terms of getting things, when I was able to bless someone else with it, it was a lot easier to let those things go. Another way you can develop a positive view of the future is to really visualize what is it going to be like to have this life that you want, where you’re inviting friends and family into your living room.
Just really picture that in your mind there’s nothing on the couch, other than people actually sitting there and maybe a couple of throw pillows. Visualize that empty space, maybe where you have boxes right now, visualize your bank account, having more money because you’re not spending a bunch of money, accumulating things you don’t need at yard.
So thrift stores or on Amazon visualize your life without horses. Playing with your grandchildren more often finding a spouse, focusing on one hobby, instead of trying to focus on the things that you can’t do anymore, telling yourself that the better days are ahead of you and not all your good memories are going to be found in the past anymore because you’re going to be creating new, positive memories in the future.
And that’s going to be really awesome.
Step four. Figure out how to stop acquiring new items. There’s time dedicated in the buried in treasures book that helps with this as well. But if you don’t stop acquiring new items, then you’re fighting this losing battle, right? Because if you get rid of a bunch of stuff in your house, and then you go to the yard sale and you buy 20 more things, then you’re just going in circles.
You may have to stop going to the places that you acquire stuff temporarily. So let’s say that you are a shopaholic related to like Ross, TJ Maxx, some of those discount stores. Maybe you need to stay away from those places for a while, until you’re able to get some of the tools under your belt to be able to go in there and not acquire.
You may have to set up a rule for yourself if you’re an online shopper and you’re always having things mailed to you through Amazon or some of those other stores. You may set a rule for yourself where you say, okay, I am not going to buy anything until it sits in my cart for at least 24 hours.
And then I’ll reevaluate whether or not I actually really need that. If you put this into play in your life, I’ve actually had some clients that have tried this that just felt like they were shopaholics, not even necessarily hoarders. So they felt like they were spending too much money on Amazon on things that they didn’t need.
And I said, okay, well set a rule for yourself that it’s got to stay in your cart overnight, or it’s got to stay in your cart for 24 hours so that you’re not impulse purchase. Step five is to do the intellectual work. This is the cognitive part of the work, finding the belief systems that are holding you back.
What are the thoughts that are keeping you stuck? So it may be something like, I need this. We tell ourselves that we need things all the time when we actually don’t need them. They’re often a want the things that we tell ourselves that we need. The IMEI use this someday. If you haven’t used it in the last three years, you’re probably not going to use it in the next three years.
Some people have appliances for every kind of function in the kitchen when they don’t use them, they may use one or two appliances and have 10. I remember getting rid of some round cake pans awhile back because I realized, well, I used to do a lot of baking. I enjoyed it. It was a thing. And I thought, when was the last time I actually made a cake number one and there were two, if I do make a cake, I don’t tend to use the round pan because then you’ve got to stack to have the icing layer in the middle of like probably gonna use the rectangle pan and just make the cake that way. So I got rid of those and I don’t regret it in the slightest or miss them because I wasn’t using. Now the book has a lot of worksheets where you can ask yourself different questions to evaluate items of why you’re really holding on to them.
So if you want to dig in and do that work, you may have thoughts. Like, you know, this is a good deal, so I have to buy it or I can get some money out of it. So I have to sell it. This refers to things that you already own. Like, well, I can’t get rid of that yet. I’ve got to find a way to sell it. We talked about some of these things already, but to get rid of this item would disrespect the memory of my loved one or cause me to forget them in some way. Or I can’t get rid of stuff until I can sort it out perfectly and put it into the right category. Realistically, you have to realize that whatever space you have, it can only hold so many items. Going back to the visualization. Let’s say you have 10 pictures, but you can only fit five in the room.
That means you have five to get rid of, because you can have a whole lot of especially decorations, decor type items that you don’t have the space to put up or show off. And it may be time to let those things go. Along with the intellectual work. Number six is you’ve got to be able to do the emotional work to either heal from the trauma or grieve the loss.
Some losses can be very traumatic to us, such as the loss of a loved one or pets. Now I have helped people process through things like watching their. Get hit by a car that is a very traumatic loss. It’s sudden it’s unexpected. There’s a tendency to blame yourself. And people may think, well, how in the world is that connected to hoarding or to holding onto things, but it can be when you are really sitting with a skilled counselor and you start to trace some of these things back, some of this tendency to hold on to things and the discomfort of letting it go.
Sometimes that’s where it goes back to. It could be a sense of a sudden move. Those can also be traumatic. Maybe you had to leave a place suddenly. Maybe you lost a bunch of items in a fire. I don’t know, but processing through that trauma can really be beneficial having a long-term illness or injury, a chronic health condition, an injury that has prevented you from doing other things.
There may be things that you’re not able to do that you used to be able to do. That’s a law. Then a lot of times we don’t acknowledge within ourselves and specifically within our society, that if you go through something like whether it’s cancer or whether it’s an auto-immune disorder and all of a sudden there are these limitations that you haven’t had before. There is some grief and loss associated with that. You don’t have the energy that you used to have. You don’t have maybe the same supports that you used to have. There could be all different kinds of factors in there. Oftentimes when we’re talking about loss, there’s the big loss, right? Whether it’s the loss of the person and then there’s all the little loss that go along with it.
So for example, if I, worst case scenario lost my husband, Steve tomorrow, if he died in some way, then there would be all of these little things that Steve does and just kind of takes care of. It could be something as little as he feeds the cats in the morning and in the. Now every time I go to feed the cat, I’m thinking, oh, you know, Steve used to do that. That’s a reminder, these bigger losses, there’s all these little things that can get wrapped up and connected into them. And if we don’t take time to really process that into cry and to journal and to grieve and to let go. Then we’re missing out on being able to work through that grief. Unfortunately, I don’t know how it is in a lot of other places, but in America, people rush through the grief process.
\They go from one thing and it’s like, tomorrow’s a new day and they just expect themselves to move on and not have any issues. Unfortunately, that’s not the way that we work, that our minds and emotions and body works. We need to be able to take time to process, to grieved, to elect. Number seven as with all forms of OCD. Since this is an OCD spectrum disorder, a person with hoarding is going to have to learn to be able to sit with the discomfort that comes from letting go of items, because there is going to be some discomfort that. And the whole point of doing this work on the front end, the intellectual work, the emotional work, the spiritual work is to be able to get to a place where you can sit with discomfort, where it’s to a manageable level, that you can work through it so that it’s not a traumatic issue getting rid of. Because if someone just were to come in tomorrow and clean out your stuff and you struggle with hoarding, that would be traumatic for you. You wouldn’t want that to happen. However, you want to be able to pace yourself and go through this process so that you can get to a place we’re seeing.
You’re mindful in your space, how you’re feeling, what thoughts you’re having about getting rid of things. And then you can sit with the discomfort, work through it. So that it’s not as uncomfortable as it is initially looking at getting rid of an eye. Now, since this is a Christian podcast, I want to talk about this from a spiritual perspective. For a moment, Jesus talks about storing up treasures in heaven, in not on the earth. There’s also a parable about a man who basically becomes rich, gathers a bunch of grain stores things, and then. Next thing, you know, he dies and none of it really matters that he had all these acquisition of items is because in the end, you know, he died and he had to give an
account for his soul at that. We know that God doesn’t want us to have anything as an idol. That’s over him. You know, “you shall have no other gods before me or not have graven images.” And a lot of times we think that, oh, we don’t have idols like people have idols maybe in other places. But we all have idols in our lives that we have to confess and work through. Whether that idol is stuff, money, relationship, it could be so many different things that people are putting above their relationship with God. And so understanding and confessing and recognizing that stuff can become an idol in your life. Even if you don’t want it to that, that’s something that can creep up on you.
And so addressing this from a spiritual perspective, really working through in prayer and confessing to God that just stuff has become out of control. And that you want to give that control back over to him, that you want to be able to release these items and allowing prayer to become a part of this process, I think would be helpful and important for you.
Prayer can be a process also in processing through the grief and losses. Like really telling God how you feel, what you think, why you feel like you have to hold onto this stuff. And as we’re praying, and as we’re processing through those things, God works on our heart, allows things to be a little bit easier and a little bit easier as you commit to that work, to letting it go really praying through what is a good time of the day.
Maybe for me to work on this, whether it’s in the morning, whether it’s in the evening, whether it’s right after you get off work, how are you going to do this?
Allowing this spiritual sense of godly accountability in your life can fastening to someone else that this is an issue. There’s so many ways that you could incorporate spirituality in terms of healing from hoarding disorder. God does not want us to be ruled or owned by anything. And that includes our stuff. We did another episode a while back, if you have not heard it, I would encourage you to go back and listen to it. And that’s episode 49 on will. Less stuff, equal, less anxiety. That episode is a personal story about Christian minimalism. It’s a very good episode that has a lot of spiritual in it as well.
So I encourage you to listen to that one for more spiritual applications in terms of getting rid of. So if you’ve been listening to the show for a while, you know that at the end of every podcast, I like to share a story of hope, which is a time where someone received hope from God or another person.
And often I asked my guests that question, since this is a solo episode, I have to come up with stories of hope for you from my own life. And here’s one that came to me recently. I, if you’ve been following along with the podcast and myself and my own journey, My husband, Steve, you know, that we just had a beautiful little daughter named faith and she is fabulous. We are so excited to have her in our lives and it’s been a really a long road to get to having faith. And so that’s how she got the name of faith, of course, because. There were so many things. I waited probably over 10 years to become a mother from the time that I started my foster care journey. So one day I’m holding my daughter and she’s asleep and looking absolutely adorable.
And it’s just really these beautiful times that we have for me to be able to pray over her and to thank God for her. And I was having this moment with my daughter that was just really beautiful and spiritual, and something happened where I started to really ponder God and being God, being all-knowing and God being sovereign. In the world and I thought, okay. So God knew ahead of time that I was going to have this moment with my daughter. And I don’t mean like he knew ahead of time as in earlier in the day. I mean, God knew that I was gonna have this baby and be sitting here watching her sleeping feeling. Incredibly blessed.
God knew that 10 years ago when I lost my foster daughters and God knew that I was going to have this moment several years ago when my first husband wanted a divorce and walked out the door and wanted nothing else to do with me and all these painful moments of my life. I’m going to talk about my daughter’s birth story related to my pregnancy and in a future episode, but there were some complications that came up at the end, shall we say, where I had this higher chance of stillbirth. And of course, that’s very scary when a doctor tells you that. So here, I’m going through this crying and praying, like, don’t let me lose this baby. Now that I’ve gone through all of the. And in that moment, God knew I was going to have this beautiful moment where I’m thanking him because my daughter is here now.
So whatever you’re going through right now may be incredibly painful and you may not see anything good here. Or anything good coming out of it or anything? Beautiful arriving later because when I went through some of those painful experiences in my life, I didn’t see how they could be good on ever like on the other side and just really. So angry or frustrated or sad with God and in how some of those situations turned out. But God had a plan. He knew what he was doing, and it’s so hard for us in the now to trust him. But that’s what I encourage you to do with whatever’s messy and uncomfortable and scary. In your life to really lean in and trust God to know that he wants to bless you with these beautiful moments. If you are serving him, if you are seeking to honor him, that he wants to make the beauty from the ashes and heal. You from this pain that you’re experiencing. And there is a beautiful and wonderful gift on the other side, at the end of our pain and suffering that we don’t see, we have no concept of at the time.
So that’s my story of hope for you today. I hope that that encourages you. I’m so glad that you decided to tune in today. If you are struggling with hoarding and you feel like you need additional professional support and you are in the state of Tennessee, I want to let you know that I plan to start a support group in the fall for people who are struggling with hoarding and really want to take action steps towards getting to a better place with this who want to do the intellectual, emotional work and want the accountability for putting the time and effort in.
So if that is something that you’re interested in, please contact me through my counseling website www.bythecounseling.com. I don’t have specific days and times for that group yet, but I will post information about it on my site and encourage you to contact me if you’re interested in being a part of that group, or if you’re interested in receiving individual therapy for hoarding.
I am back from maternity leave on June 1st and we’ll be taking on several more clients is since I’ve been off for a while. And if you’ve been looking to get into counseling summer is a great time because counselors often have more openings in the summer because people are on vacation and various things.
So if you need to go to counseling because you’re struggling with hoarding and OCD, spectrum issue, or any other mental health condition, don’t wait, go ahead and get that ball rolling.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee.
Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling our original music is by Brandon Maingrum.
Until next time be comforted by God’s great love f
Joe Padilla, a licensed and ordained minister, and co-founder of Mental Health Grace Alliance. Joe shares with us how his family was personally impacted by mental health and how he was able to work through it.
Stepping down the ministry to navigate his wife’s mental health issues
Barriers to seeking professional and pastoral help
Doing research and equipping himself to help his wife overcome her mental health condition
Learning how to integrate neuroscience, psychology, and biblical scriptures for mental health recovery
Reinventing support group models and curriculum that integrate faith and science.
Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 67. Another really great personal story interviews for you guys today. Before we hop into that, though, there’s a couple of things that I wanna say on a more personal note. On the podcast here, it’s very hard to talk about current events due to the nature of having a counseling practice and trying to keep my own sanity as I’m recording this introduction. I know that this show won’t come out for another six weeks. Also, my interview actually was recorded several months ago. However, I feel like because we have such a worldwide audience that it’s really important for me to say. A couple of things about what’s happening in our world. At this point in time, Russia has invaded Ukraine and it’s a very heartbreaking situation.
We know from what Jesus told us that in the last days. There are going to be wars and rumors of wars. So this should not come as a surprise to us. I hope though, that these recent events have reminded you to pray for your brothers and sisters all over the world who are in war-torn countries, or who are experiencing persecution for their faith. If you have freedoms and the country that you are in to worship and praise God as you, please, if you are able to go to bed tonight and not have to worry about being bombed, we need to be very thankful because we may not always have those freedoms. We don’t know what the future holds for us, but we know that God loves us and that God is with us. And if by some chance you are in Ukraine and you’re listening to this, just know that we love you. And we are praying for you.
Today on the show. I am interviewing Joe Padilla, who is the CEO and co-founder of the Mental Health Grace Alliance. I didn’t know anything at all, really about the Mental Health Grace Alliance, until I was told by one of our previous guests that I needed to look into this organization. They’re doing some amazing things, just combining this passion of helping people who have mental health issues in the church. And Joe is gonna share his own personal experience of how they got started. Joe, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Joe: I am a licensed and ordained minister. I’ve been in ministry for 20, some odd years now. And my background really kind of started with missions and then local ministry, and then really running the Grace Alliance as a mental health type of ministry, helping churches and individuals and families now based out of Texas. So, that’s where we are.
Carrie: Awesome. I know that your family was personally impacted by mental health, and that’s kind of how you got on this journey. Tell us a little bit about that.
Joe: When we started a ministry, basically in missions that we were on the field for probably a total of 10 years in regard to that. And during that time, we noticed a lot of challenges with my wife’s mental health, as far as depression, anxiety, and different things like that, which led us to come back, worked locally within the church and stuff.
But while we were here trying to get the mental health care system, you know, all of those pastoral care as well and all that kind of stuff, but really nothing ever really kind of progressed for her from both the professional and the pastoral, which got to the point where we actually had to step down from ministry because of those.
We’re extremely challenging for her, for us and for our kids. And then really started to try to figure out, and how do we navigate this journey? And it was a time when we stepped down, that where we started to focus on how, do we really navigate this? And so I started to dive into really learning. What is neuroscience? What is, the psychology, all these types of things. Cause I wasn’t getting all of that information. And as you know. With the church leaders and things. That’s one of the areas where they just don’t get a lot of equipping and training and being a leader myself, I just didn’t have that.
So it really took the time to kind of research and look at all those. And it was finding this way that you really could navigate this for kind of what’s called mental health recovery. And no one was talking about that. They were just talking about management and things like that. Long story short, I started to apply all these principles and then over about a year and a half period, I saw my web significantly improved. Through her journey where we’ve never seen any of that kind of progress in the last kind of eight to 10 years of suffering. And that led us to having to leave, ministry altogether. And then here we are now, building, rebuilding life, our marriage or family and everything. And just looking at all these concepts are using a real whole health approach or a holistic approach and doing all that we got better medical care, the mental health professionals.
I started to figure out what works, what doesn’t work and an even from ministry, figuring out what works. And what doesn’t work and why things were getting so bad. So, from both of those end, we just kind of learn how to navigate it and figure some things out and then rebuilding life towards a new promise for us. And in front of that journey, that’s where we start to figure out there really is a way to navigate this. Even within the church, and it’s way simpler than we think, but it’s a very useful, and then that’s kind of where the organization came from that experience.
Carrie: I like that. We talked about the holistic approach a lot on this podcast, you know, it’s not just your spiritual health, it’s your mental, emotional, physical, it’s all just interconnected. And that’s how God created us to be. So I like that. I wanna mention something too, that you talked about just in terms of one navigating the system of mental health care is hard. It’s hard to find a therapist. Sometimes, you call, you make phone calls. You may not get a phone call back. People say, “oh, no, I don’t take your insurance or no, I can’t work with your availability on the days you’re available. I’m not taking new clients”.
So I’ve found a counselor recently for myself or some things that I’m processing through being pregnant, getting ready to have a child. And just different stressors in my life. And I know how hard it was for me. And I understand the system and I understand how the system works, but it took me probably a couple of weeks to find somebody that could meet with me. And that in itself, I think can be discouraging. Did you guys have a lot of roadblocks as you were trying to just kind of navigate the system and get the help?
Joe: Well, I think from our position, we had excellent professionals. If it just was all scattered, do you have a family doctor who’s helping you, but then you have a psychiatrist who’s coming in, but then they don’t talk. And then you have a therapist. But then the therapist doesn’t talk to the psychiatrist. So it’s just all so scattered and you’re getting all kinds of, you know, it’s like they say, you talk to 10 people and you get a hundred opinions, but I think we’re really trying to figure out what’s helpful and what’s not helpful. And then because you have a psychiatrist, who’s prescribing medication, but then sometimes they’re not paying attention to what the side effects are, how they’re playing with other medication and what really the condition you’re dealing with as well as then you’re going to the therapy. They’re really, was kind of a way of, what kind of therapy do you need on the front end of this on to once you have a lot of stability, what’s helpful?
But if you don’t understand that therapeutic process for an individual in high crisis, in high stress, it can actually make it worse. And I see that all the time and that’s what we were going through was, this has been a health care system, is so scattered.
No one’s communicating. No one’s really understanding. And then it took time for me to learn. Wow! These medications that they’re prescribing and they keep updating them. It’s actually making it worse. Why isn’t anybody paying attention to this or the therapy? And I remember meeting with therapists and they’re trying to sole approach. I’m like, “what are you talking about? You have no idea what you’re doing”.
You have to understand what condition is, where the brain condition is from a neuroscience standpoint of what can actually be processed rather than tools based to get to the point where you can process things. So kind of an understanding, because that’s a hard journey and I coach a lot of people through this. And we look at their kind of the therapeutic process and they’re making no progress whatsoever, because I was meeting with somebody recently and talking them through that. And it’s just, like they said, “well, I don’t feel like I’m getting anywhere”. I was like, “well, how long have you been in that therapy”?. It was like, “well, I’ve been in for quite a long time”.
It was like, “you know, you’re paying for that. You should go back to your professional and say”. “Here’s this, this and this, this, how can I move forward with this and this and this”, but they belong for a journey. And then you ended up in this conversation.
Carrie: Absolutely.
Joe: So, again, I think that’s part of when we say the mental health care system, there is one, the availability, when you do get in, it’s looking at the process of what type of care are we actually getting into?
Is it appropriate? And is it being followed up with very well? And then you look at the community. Where’s the community support? And there’s always a gap there, especially when you get into the price centered or Christian or body of Christ or church community, that’s very lacking. And we can talk about that a little bit more later too, because that’s kind of the essence of what we do as an organization. But I think when we talk about the confusion of the mental health care system, we’re talking about all these things that just from availability to who do you see, and then is it appropriate? Is this the right process? Are you in the right place?
Carrie: If there are a lot of moving pieces really to navigate. And I think for you being so involved in your wife’s care, you were probably able to provide a certain level of feedback, maybe things that you were seeing, that she wasn’t able to see. Cause I know that sometimes people will go into see a psychiatrist for example, and they’re just reporting on their last week instead of really looking at the whole picture and reporting maybe on their last month or their last few months, because they’re in distress. And sometimes when you’re in distress, it’s just really hard to get it out and even communicate about what’s going on with you internally with your experiences.
Joe: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that’s when we developed our coaching and then even within our groups, we try to give information that helps when they are working on professional helps them to be a little bit more strategic with understanding their care and their follow-up. Even when you get into medication, we do have a topic where we cover that. But giving them strategic ways of how to communicate better with their psychiatrists so that you can take the guesswork out and you really get into some information that’s helpful so that you can move forward rather than just kind of guess your way through a lot of these medications.
Carrie: Absolutely. Unfortunately, it seems to be a lot of trial and error. More so in the psychiatric realm, then in other areas of medical treatment and different people respond differently to medications and it’s hard. I wanna ask you a little bit too about there’s this medical model of mental illness and the medical model of mental illness says, “Well, you know, you just have some chemicals, are often in your brain. You’re probably going to struggle with depression your whole life, or you’re gonna be struggling with anxiety. That’s just the way it is or some genetic components, this and that”. And for me as a believer, it’s always been very challenging. And there’s a part of me that greatly rejects that model, because like you said, at a lot of it is focused on management and just focus on.
Well, you know, you’re just gonna have these symptoms and we just got to figure out how to manage them, instead of saying, how can I live an abundant life in Christ, even though I have these mental health struggles. And that’s one of the reasons, you know, that I have this podcast and wanting to give people hope that you don’t just have to suffer. You know, there are so many different treatment options. There’s different types of therapy that you can engage in. There is alternative medicines. There’s so much hope and so much help out there. And the more that we talk about it and the more people know about it, like we have Christ, we have the ultimate hope to get better.
Was that something that you found or you process like on your journey?
Joe: You know, and I think that that comment of, is she gonna be like this roast her life and then something inside you, is going. “I don’t know about that”. You know, I think that’s most everybody, even if you’re not a believer, I think there’s just, that’s just hard. But especially in the church where we have this aspect of, well, then where’s Christ in that, you know, whereas that?, and I think if we take it from the position of, when we look at mental health recovery, or we look at that concept from a medical process or even, and that whole journey, we don’t look at it as we’re gonna try to get rid of your diagnosis. We’re gonna try to get rid of all your symptoms.
We look at it more of, you can still flourish in life. So it’s a really about understanding. How do you build a life that is more meaningful? And that you can flourish in your life and you have much more resilience to the condition that you’re walking through. And overtime as you build your own flourishing life and you become more resilient than you actually see a lot of symptom reduction, you may not see the whole thing go away, which is fine, but you can live very meaningful and purposeful. And I think that’s a lot of times in the medical model or sometimes in the community. And no offense, because I know that there are some conditions that are challenging. And, but I think that sometimes we just get this message of you’re gonnq be like this, the rest of your life, take your medications, manage and survive as best you came in.
I think God’s designed us for more than that, even though we have a condition because I’ve coached people with severe mental illness, like schizophrenia and things like that. And I’m telling you, Carrie, I have seen them flourish from, and I have some incredible stories, even miraculous stories where they were living on their parents’ house. And this is on disability. This is what gonna be the rest of their life, to having a full life, getting married, having business, you know, all these types of things. You see this dramatic turnaround they’re conditioned didn’t go away. But what happened was there symptoms declined as they flourished in life, they’ll need their medication, but they’re able to flourish with a meaningful, purposeful life. I think that’s the opportunity to show people cause when I’m coaching somebody and I’m working with them, I just share with them and tell them, “look, I know that I know, that I know, that I know. It can be different than this”. You get rid of this. We’re not gonna try to eliminate this.
But let me show you what you can’t have. And that’s when we get into psychology and you’d know this more than I do as a professional, where we were it’s called avoidant goals versus approach goals. And so that management of you just live this way, avoid all these things. And because you’re, you know, avoid life and all this stuff, because you have this condition and the research shows the more you live that way. Especially, God is in that narrative, we just don’t have very, we don’t have good wellbeing and mental health as opposed to approach goals of, here’s what you can have.
This is what your life is about. Here’s the opportunity that you can have a build and you start to see better wellbeing, mental health and stuff like that. I think that’s what we do with our curriculum since the week. As Jesus did, he came and he flipped the script. And I think in mental health, we need to flip the script so that you see much better hope in a tangible way, rather than just, let’s just keep praying about this and go to your closet and keep asking God, I think there’s more to it than that.
Carrie: I love that. That there’s always hope. And what you were talking about with goals. Is that a lot of times people do, they come into counseling, they come to see me and they say, I want these obsessive thoughts to go away. I’m dealing with OCD, or I want this anxiety to go away. I want God to heal me and just take all this away. And it’s like, okay. So that’s like, step one, maybe. But what would your life be like if you had less anxiety and sometimes that really just stops people in their tracks, almost like they’re not really sure. Oh no. I just feel better. What does feel better? Look like, you know, cause feel better to, you might look differently than feel better to me. And we start to unravel this. And then a lot of times they’ll get to, well, if I wasn’t so anxious, then I would be able to have more social relationships or I would be able to start dating somebody, or I would be able to have more confidence to do the things that they believe God’s calling them to do.
So that’s a whole different thing to work for because who wants to work for just less of something. I mean, I guess in the physical realm, it’s kind of similar to losing weight. Well, I just want to lose weight. But why? Oh, cause I want to run with my grandkids. Well, that’s totally, you know, wow! You just opened up the world for yourself there, by looking at that approach goal. I like that concept. Let’s talk about community because you brought up the community so crucial. I think now more than ever. At least, what I’m seeing in the North American context, is because we do have some worldwide listeners, but in our American context, we are more isolated. And we have ever been, and COVID of course made things worse and caused people to isolate even more.
It’s so hard sometimes for people to find, a good, authentic Christian community.
And there’s so much shame around the stigma of having a mental illness. Sometimes I’ll talk with people and I’ll say, “okay, well, who in your church knows about this? Have you talked to your pastor about this? Is your small group praying for you”? And they’re just like, “oh, you know”, it’s just like, I can’t tell anybody that I’m dealing with these obsessive thoughts. And I’m like, “but you need these people, you know, you need this help in this community”. Do you find that as well? Just in working with people. That it’s, that is hard.
Joe: I think it’s, well, this gets into the conversation about stigma and community. Obviously, community is the biggest agent for healing and for people, anybody, even if you’re just isolated and you’re healthy.
Carrie: Right.
Joe: It’s like, not that to have a flourishing life, you have to have community. And especially when you get into mental health challenges, because it is a little bit more of a private challenge or an issue or things like that it’s often associated with fate or you’re doing something wrong, your sin, or, you know, and then it gets associated with, well, maybe that’s demonic or something like that. I think that’s been an unfortunate default narrative, which really just unfair to begin there. So it’s still with the stigma. I think it’s research nerd. So I read all this stuff and I actually went and looked at the stigma and found that there’s about 50, 60, 70 years of research on stigma, mental illness stigma.
Carrie: Wow!
Joe: And what they basically have said over all these years is the more that you try to break stigma. The more stigma you create, because we’re not built for narratives that are psychoanalytical. Or just not an institutional project, we are people. And so when you use narratives that are biomedical and things like that, we create an otherness type of people and otherness type of people fall into a brokenness and default narrative. That’s why we just create more stigma by using that type of thing. And so when we use language that we already know that we understand, as far as mental health. I often like to just, say, “you know, this, these are about mental health difficulties and disorders, or just mental health challenge”.
This is just me personally, but I don’t like using the mental illness language because, and I know that there’s others that will advocate for that. We can all have different positions. I think that, especially from the pandemic, we’re starting to realize I’m working with more church leaders. That realized this, now that is really more of a spectrum rather than a disease division. You know, it really is a place where we all are experiencing crisis and any crisis, especially within mental health, creates a longing for meaning and community. So I think we have to understand where we are on that spectrum and things like that. Yes, there are disorders and stuff and we can work. Then there’s also people on depression, anxiety scale that would never identify themselves. As mental illness or mental health.
Perfect example is, I worked with a professional. We were just in a conversation and I was just trying to help a family member of this professional. And they explained to me, when I say professional, they’re a business professional, the very fluent they’re very influential. And they were just saying to me that like, you know, they’re on medication, they had the classic symptoms of depression and anxiety and how that was causing a lot of relational challenges. And then they said, “well, I would never come to your website because that’s where mental illness”. You know, I’m just going to go to church and I’m going to go, do some more inner healing work, you know? And so it’s like, okay, well, that’s fine. And I think that’s because of the narrative that we often tell around mental illness is so limiting because we make it such a sickness issue that we forget. It’s a person and it’s a story. And so when we talk about mental health and things like that, even like when we talk about suicide awareness and stuff like that, I’m kind of like, Hey, suicide awareness. It needs to be called, story awareness.
You have to understand people’s story because you will become more compassionate and understanding to a story than you will to a statistic. So we use statistics secondary, not first. We use stories first because at the end of the day, there’s more commonality. If we just sit down and talk to each other, then we realize. And then the diagnosis will become a secondary concern, but it will have so much compassion because the story’s there. So in order to break the stigma within the church, we have to tell the story, humanness and humanity and where God is in that journey because mental health is all over the Bible. I mean, it is everywhere. It is so described and described a very, very well. But we don’t tell that narrative because we only use scientific terminology and then nobody pays attention. And everybody’s thinking, I don’t know anybody with schizophrenia, and this is a longer, obviously a conversation and stuff, and we help churches and leaders. And I have this document that I could, I have, you know, some leaders and stuff to help them understand. How to use the right language so that you can appeal to the right people and get them the right support.
Because the statistics, that show that it takes about seven to eight years before someone will actually reach out and get help. But that whole seven year journey, we talk about it as a team of how do we reach the seven-year journey person, because in that place. They’re not seeing mental health, they’re just saying I’m broken, God’s working on me and this is more sanctification in my life. And so then, and that just recreates or reinforces more of that avoidance or avoided detachment type theories and stuff like that. And so, but if we can really learn the language of the seven-year journey, I think we would see much more help and much more resources that would get to people much quicker.
Carrie: So, tell us about Mental Health Grace Alliance and what you guys do?
Joe: So, Mental Health Grace Alliance, we are integrating science and faith, scripture Christ into a material that is practical. It’s easy to use. Anywhere, anytime, anybody. So we’re really trying to get you that the insight and the tools to make life better. Okay. So from a family to an individual and even for churches. And so what we do is we provide a small group curriculums and that small group curriculum can be used even personally, because we know that, that’s hard to get groups going and stuff like that. And we just encourage people, if with the curriculum, even if you just found one person, that’s a group, this size doesn’t matter. Having one or two other people. So with that curriculum, and there are 16 week, so we have one curriculum for, again, for family members. That’s the parent or the spouse who is living with somebody that has a mental health condition of some sort.
Then we have it for the individual and that’s called our living grace. So we have family grace and then living grace. And then we have a version for students, high school and college that’s written in their world and that’s a 10-week version. So that can happen easily within a semester. We have another material called to thrive, which goes through much more of the intensive process. And that’s what we actually developed our coaching program from, but we just got overwhelmed and we turned it into a self, got to workbook. From the process of revising that. So hopefully in 2022, we’ll have a new version to be released because people have turned it into groups and we can’t keep up with them.
Carrie: So awesome.
Joe: So that’s the primary thing that we do is really provide them that a topical guidance through these, this material and everything is faith-based from a sense of, here’s a scripture. Here’s a way that you guys can discover how God is inside this journey. Not you trying to get to God, but where God is relating to you. And then some science facts and subscriptions facts. That they could discuss. And a lot of times they come with a tool that they can practice and professionals love it because it’s a place where they’re just getting reinforced because we do, like I said earlier, we have a topic on medication, you know, but then the rest of the workbooks really do reinforce a lot of principles. That are very tools based within a lot of therapy programs.
We’re not doing therapy, we’re just doing the support of it. And they’re getting the resources and the help and the groups that we have they’re easy. You do not have to be a professional. They are not, they don’t replace medicine or therapy or anything like that. It is just a way to get this conversation going. You learn and get encouraged and you grow through this. And we’ve done research on these groups. So we do have published results on these groups and we see that people reduce their symptoms and they are aided mental health recovery, and they renew their faith. And then the stories that just are amazing coming out of these groups too.
Carrie: That’s a really interesting connection, I think between discipleship and mental health recovery because they are related in the sense that we’re always on that process of striving to become more like Christ. And that’s not always just a spiritual process. It’s a communal process. It’s a self-examination process. There’s so much that goes into that. So I love that. And just the aspect of people being able to be in a group with other people who they feel like, this person gets it. They have struggles too. And we’re able to be open about that. I haven’t led a group in a while since I’ve been doing online practice, but when I did groups in person, they were so incredibly powerful. And what I would see was my clients that were in group therapy. It almost like, It’s like it lit this spark under their individual therapy work.
It’s very hard to explain other than it was just like, that was so powerful and good for them to be able to kind of see some of their symptoms in other people and be able to respond compassionately to others. When sometimes it’s hard to respond compassionately to yourself. There’s just so much. I think that people can get out of that. And I remember walking out of one of the groups and I just thought, this is what church is supposed to be like, I was like, this is what authentic community looks like. And it wasn’t a Christian based group because I had people in there that weren’t Christians.
It was just, you know, anxiety management group. But I walked out and I went, we learn a lot in the church from group therapy, you know what.
Joe: You know, from our focus is talking to some church leaders about this recently, but what we do is we have a solution for the frustration gap in the church. And what I mean by that is someone goes to the pastor and the pastor can tell this person needs way more professional help.
And I am equipped to offer, and we have nothing here at the church for them. So they get referred out to a professional. Then they go to the professional and the professional is I ready to help you? I wanna help you, but I have no spot for you for another three to four weeks. Okay. And, I wanna send you back to the church.
There’s no support for you there. Well, here’s this community support group, but they don’t do faith. And again, some of those models that those cathartic models that I’ve seen, the research on those groups, they are not effective. It’s just venting and venting and venting.
So, but its like, and so from our standpoint, I’ve been through that. Cause I went to a support group and I was like first and last meeting I’ll ever go to in the community support group because it was so horrible and it was so discouraging. And I thought there’s gotta be a better way of this cause I have seen life in the church. And so really that frustration gap, the pastor doesn’t know where to send them other than the professional, that he doesn’t know where to send them back because there’s no Christian support other than this community support. But then there’s not here from all the time. There’s no Christian stuff in these community groups.
So that frustration gap basically means the support group model needs to be reinvented. And so what we did is we have reinvented the support model into a discipleship growth, the journey for those who are experiencing mental health challenges. From the family to the individual. And so really giving away that they can grow in their relationship with Christ. This isn’t about, Hey, we have this group for you in the back. It meets on Thursday nights. You come to the back door, there’s coffee over there, and then you just really be quiet and was like, no, let’s give you a full dignity of a discipleship experience tailored for your experience of where you are on this journey. Cause you’re not losing out. There’s actually an opportunity for you to see this as a growing experience. So here’s this group and these groups lead themselves; they’re just facilitated.
Carrie: That’s awesome. I’m enjoying this conversation so much and I hate to wrap it up, but I’m curious for you, just kind of looking at your journey that you’ve been on. What would you tell your younger self who had a wife who is struggling with mental health issues? If you could go back somehow and give yourself advice.
Joe: If I were to go back and I would say, look at the science, don’t be afraid of the science. I think sometimes there’s this tension between science and scripture.
And the more that I see science, the more alive scripture gets and the more research I see that the bigger God gets and I fall in love with God more. There is a beauty between science and faith. I think we’re in a new age of the church that much more open to that now where we were 20 years ago. It was a little bit more tender, things like that, but I would say, yeah, I’d say, Hey, look at the science because there really is a way, and there’s a lot more hope 9when you integrate the science.
Carrie: Is there a way for people to go on the website and look and see what groups might be running near them?
Joe: There is. So our website is a Mental Health Grace Alliance Dot.or. And then they can just click on the, for you page and they can see our material. And then also there’s a button there on the, for you page or for the family page, just to the shows them what groups are available. There are some groups that are online and then there are some in different areas, but it’s really easy for them to start a group. We make it really easy. This free training, free support, all that stuff. All they had to do is buy a workbook. So it’s very easy for anybody to find a group.
We have hundreds of groups all over the world and things like that, so they can evaluate and see what’s there. And then if this is a shirts that’s interested and they’re listening to your podcasts, or maybe a leader, we provide free virtual meetings for church leaders because they’re curious and they want more help. And so we provide those meetings for free and I’ll meet with them and just talk them through. And most of the time when I meet these pastors and these leaders, they don’t go longer than 30, 40 minutes because they’re ready. They just need someone to help them kind of guide them. And then they run with it.
Carrie: Awesome. We’ll put the links in there and I’d love to get a hold of your workbooks and see if it would be helpful for some of my clients, you know, as an addition to what they’re already doing.
So, man, keep doing what you’re doing and just encouraging churches and people who are struggling.
Joe: Thank you appreciated.
Carrie: I know that some of you may really benefit from the resources that the Mental Health Grace Alliance has to offer. We will be sure to put their website in our show notes for you to click on for easy access.
And we are always looking for great guest suggestions for the show. I probably won’t be recording until sometime in the summer, but if you have a guest suggestion, you’re always welcome to fill out our contact form on our website: www.thopeforanxietyandocd.com. Thank you so much for listening.
Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 66. Today on the show we are talking with Amanda Huffman. Who’s a licensed clinical social worker about somatic experiencing therapy. This one is a little bit near and dear to my heart because as I discussed way back in episode 10, I actually received some somatic experiencing therapy for myself before I started to date again, it was super helpful and allowed me to open myself up to another relationship after my divorce.
I loved talking through any body-based therapy because our body gets so activated when you’re dealing with anxiety or even with OCD. There are a lot of those similar symptoms internally that are very distressing. It allows us to tap into deeper places than simply doing talk therapy. And I hope you’re able to learn a lot from Amanda today. Amanda, I really believe that therapists choose modalities that align with them personally and professionally. How did you become interested in somatic experiencing?
Amanda: That’s a fun question, actually, maybe a little different than others. I started my early career, was in the psychiatric hospital and they trained me in dialectical behavior therapy. And so I developed this kind of, like, heart for working with people with trauma. I started to see it as like, you know, trauma’s really at the root, what prompts the suffering, be it depression, anxiety, or personality-based stuff. If you follow it down to the core, we’re looking at early trauma experiences.
One of my dear friends was just like, Hey, there’s this SE training coming to Austin, like, we should do it. And I was like, let’s okay, sure. Let’s sign up for it. I didn’t really know what I was getting into, in the beginning. Once I signed up, I did read Peter’s book and thought, wow! this, this really sounds like amazing work. And that’s, you know, my interest began to get more and more peaked by this, you know, new modality that I didn’t know much about.
Carrie: Is Peter Levine? When you read his book, is it waking the tiger?
Amanda: He has several, but waking the tiger is one of the real foundational books that if people are interested. I would recommend they start with that one.
Carrie: So you were just really looking for an effective trauma treatment and kind of got dragged into the initial training.
Amanda: Totally. And that’s a funny story too, actually. So here I am in this training, didn’t know what to expect and you know, I come from a very cognitive world. I love DBT, I still use it. There’s a place and time for everything. But, so I come from this cognitive, this world of DBT, and now I’m in the experiential world and I’m like, what it’s happening? And the training itself is different, right? Because it’s a lot of like, let’s get into this and let’s practice with each other. There was this moment I was in like really close to the front. And one of the students in front of me started to have, like a physiological reaction in the midst of the training. And so Maggie Klein, the SE trainer in Austin at the time, she said, “would it be okay if I moved over and I did a little SE work with you”, you know, here in the training let to let people see it, the student was game for it, but I’m sitting right behind them.
So as she’s doing the SE work, I notice my arms start twitching. And I’m like, what is happening to my body? I just went home and let. I laid on my couch and let it twitch. And I’m like, wow! There is really something to this. There was something shifting deeper in my own body just by being near the work that was being done.
And then I was hooked. I was like, I’m in it. I’m sold. I’m gonna follow this to the end.
Carrie: There’s actually three parts to it. Right? I mean, it takes a while to get trained, you know, in somatic experiencing.
Amanda: it’s a big commitment. That’s three years. It’s 36 days total, over three years. And it’s really worth it. If there’s a possibility of doing the training, I highly recommend it.
Carrie: And then you went on the third year is actually, touch. And it’s not necessarily always therapists that are in there. Sometimes there are massage therapists and other practitioners that get involved in this training. And after that, you went on to get trained in base. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Amanda: In your advanced year of SE you do learn about touch and I found it to be very powerful. Being a psychotherapist. I knew that I wanted something more, cause I did not have the background, like body workers come into the training with it. So, Dave Burger, his legacy faculty for SE Somatic Experiencing International.
He’s also a physical therapist as well as a counselor. And a massage therapist and he created a training called Base Bodywork and Somatic Education. The training really goes more in depth around anatomy. It’s like thinking about the body globally, regionally and locally. And so, we might work more specifically in base with a structure like a kidney, your liver, your kidney, and do hands-on work in those specific areas of the body.
Carrie: Tell us about the theory. Behind somatic experiencing and how it works.
Amanda: That’s a big question. I’ll try to keep it brief. So it was founded by Peter Levine. He was studying trauma and started to look at animals in the wild, like how do they recover from trauma? If they survive a, an attack by a predator that led him to look at the nervous system. And to start to work with the nervous system in conjunction with, you know, what we would normally do in talk, you know, in therapy, which is utilize, talk, unlike cognitive based therapies, as he is gonna work more with the brain stem, we’re gonna incorporate more of body sensation. We’re gonna look at reflexes. We’re gonna look at impulses, board movement.
So as a practitioner, I’m tracking two things, I’m tracking the content of the information, the story. That the client is bringing in, but I’m also tracking the nervous system. So I’m watching, like, did that bit of information. Did someone start to have an, an increase in energy in their body?
Their color might shift or they could get really steel? Their eyes could get a little bit bigger. So you learn to watch for things that might inform me that this person is starting to kind of tiptoe back into a fight, flight or freeze response that happened in the moment of a trauma, but we’re working to integrate that energy. Right?
So, trauma itself is a high energy state. That energy comes into the body and we need to be able to let the energy go. But a lot of times that gets inhibited. It might be that somebody’s unconscious, or they get strapped to a gurney or they get loaded down with medicines, but it inhibits that natural release of the nervous system.
And so, what we are doing is we’re allowing that process to start to emerge in a slow titrated way. So that energy that got bound up during the trauma can now be renegotiated within the body. So it becomes life energy again.
Carrie: And there’s some, a little bit of movement involved in that, right?
Amanda: We incorporate movement. We can incorporate touch. Not all SEPs choose to do that. So you have an option around your comfort level. I had a young client who was in a car accident as we worked through the car accident and got closer to the moment of the trauma, where she was hit. We follow the impulse of the body and what her body wanted to do was really.
Her arms and body started to move to the right. It was like, almost as if she had wanted to turn her car away to avoid being hit. And so we let the body follow that instinct. Let’s see what happens if we follow this through and let the body do what it wanted to do. But what got inhibited in that moment?
Carrie: I know a lot of times people with anxiety will have things like leg shaking, you know, where their leg will just be bouncing up and down. All over the place and they’re just like, I just always do that. So that’s something that you would kind of pick up on and notice that’s how you utilize that energy.
Amanda: That’s right. So like that would tell me right away, I’m like, okay, I’m looking at their nervous system. Right? Their sympathetic nervous system sets high. Right? There’s a high level of energy in their body all the time. Right? That just kind of clues me into where we might start working with that person.
I might not go directly to the legs. I might not even bring that up at all, but as the person starts to give me the content of what they’re wanting to work on. As a practitioner, I might be more aware of helping them learn to settle. How do we bring a parasympathetic online, which is the part of our autonomic nervous system that helps bring us down. It’s like we need to practice the coming down so that you can live from a place of ease and flow. Your baseline can be relaxed.
Carrie: That’s good. It does take practice. If you are used to living at that high state, and it almost can become a comfortable discomfort. It’s uncomfortable, but I’m used to it.
Amanda: That’s right. It is also interesting. It gets maybe like a little bit more complex that sometimes when trauma happens, it can happen when we’re in a relaxed state though, if you’re sleeping, if you were at ease and, and you were shocked by trauma, that happened when you were relaxed. There might be a part of your body that says, “I don’t wanna go back there”. Right? I wanna be relaxed again because I’m not on guard. I’m not vigilant to everything that could be happening around me. Right? So it’s like your system gets stuck in a hypervigilant state watching, trying to prevent any trauma from rehappening.
Carrie: I have not been trained in SE, but I actually received some from another therapist, I talked about this on episode 10 of the podcast. What happened was I went through a pretty traumatic divorce. And then as I was trying to go back out and date, it’s almost like my body would not let me. It was like, I couldn’t sleep. I was having high anxiety and it was only surrounding like the dating issue. And I was like, okay, my life is fine if I don’t date. And if I date it’s a, a bit of a wreck, my nervous system is a wreck, but I would like to date and I would like to get remarried.
So I’ve gotta try to figure this thing out. And I thought, you know, it’s one of those situations where, you know, talking about that is not going to be necessarily the most helpful because everything was so, such a body experience. And I had already done a lot of talk therapy surrounding my divorce. And what happened to me. I had done a little bit of EMDR around it actually, and, and different things. It was interesting. What kind of, what you were just brought up, that what it came down to was really feeling like there was this sense of not feeling like I was gonna be able to protect myself, the next time, like, or in the next relationship. And it was very interesting. I think some of the things that came up out of that, but I just found it to be very helpful. And I feel like I got a lot of relief probably in about, I don’t know, 10 sessions or less. It really just added an extra layer to the work that I had already done on those things in my life.
Amanda: A lot of people will stay with their therapist and they’ll come in to do SE work as a supplement to the therapy they’re already doing. So it doesn’t have to be your primary model of treatment.
Carrie: Right.
Amanda: But because you are working with the nervous system, people can find relief very quickly.
Carrie: That’s incredible. How are some ways that you’ve also seen it be helpful for people who are experiencing anxiety and OCD.
Amanda: I loved this question about OCD, cause even as you were talking about your divorce, I mean it’s the same concept. There’s something that happened that felt traumatizing to your nervous system or dis regulating in such a big way. Right? That we wanna sued to ourself. We wanna be able to bring it down and sometimes we find this thing that we do that provides relief and then suddenly that thing becomes a pattern. Right? So then we keep engaging in the thing, whatever.
Carrie: Checking behavior.
Amanda: Checking behaviors in an attempt to settle our nervous system. So, from an SE perspective, OCD is in general, an anxiety management strategy. What we’re trying to do is just to help the person. Felt, sense of safety within their body and their environment so that they can feel bigger sensations. I can be with this sensation of anxiety as it comes in. And I don’t have to go check to sue them.
I have the capacity to be with the discomfort and to know that I’ll be okay if I don’t go check. One of the ways we do that is we start to really feel into the moments. Right before the checking behavior would come up. What is happening in that space right before the behavior. And can we then interrupt the pattern? Is there something we can do differently here to get that pattern to shift in a different direction?
Carrie: It’s hard with OCD because a lot of times there may be a disconnection to the body they’re so used to living in that thought realm, what they would probably say to that is, well, I have this obsession and it’s harder to get them to tune into either that anxious the discomfort. That’s also accompanying that obsession or occurring right before the compulsion, like you were saying.
Amanda: So then you have to work very slowly, right? It’s a titrated experience. You might work with them around experiencing body sensations, not related to the obsession or the compulsion. Something that feels safer for them. So, let’s in general, start to get you more in tune with your body, to live from a more embodied place. So then when we start to tiptoe into the anxiety and the compulsions, you’re already gonna have this kind of baseline to work with. You’re gonna know how to feel, into your body. You’re gonna trust that you can be in your body in a safe way. So, everything we do in SE is slow and titrated.
Carrie: That’s helpful because you’re always trying to monitor and make sure this person, your client is not getting overwhelmed. Which can happen in forms of trauma therapy, really any form of trauma therapy, people can become overwhelmed and you do have to have a good like, pacing and a process there.
Amanda: And it can happen in SE. There are times that people can slide into overwhelm very quickly. It’s not necessarily about perfection, but it’s about trusting that we can also come back to safety. If that happens. But in general, I think of it like swimming. I even explain it to my clients like this. If you, you didn’t know how to swim, or you had a traumatic experience swimming, I’m not gonna, like push you, you know, into the deep end of a pool. Right? We might even just talk about what it’s like to see the pool. And then we notice what happens in your body. And we help your body take in the image of a pool in a way that feels safe. And so then, you know, we titrate that more and more until the person has more safety, getting closer to the pool, putting their foot in the pool, experiencing the feel of the water.
Carrie: How do you feel like this is different? Obviously, it sounds very different from other forms of, of talk therapy, but I mean, maybe you can even talk about it a little bit as similarities and differences to other forms of trauma therapy. You know, you’ve got, like exposure and CBT and EMDR brain spotting. There’s just a lot of options out there in terms of trauma treatment. How do you feel like this approach is, is different?
Amanda: I, I feel like it’s different. The things that I am familiar with, like a DBT, CBT, they’re gonna work with your cognition. It’s kind of like you have thought. And this thought is wrong and we need to change the thought. And if we change the thought, then you’re gonna feel better. And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t, it’s like, I know the thoughts wrong and I still have the thought. And if it were that easy, I would’ve done this already. Right? So with SE what’s different about it is that bottom-up approach.
We are looking at all of it, not just the thoughts. So, you know, you have the story that’s unfolding, but as the story unfolds again, I am watching and tracking their body’s reaction to their own story and I’m helping them slow it down so they can feel the story in their body. Right? There’s something really important about being in an embodied place to be able to. Then get to healing. Right?
If I stay up in my cognition and I rush through it, then I might not actually feel it. And when I connect with my body and I can feel it opens up so many possibilities for being able to be with an uncomfortable emotion or find some type of completion to it. In a way where it doesn’t reoccur.
Carrie: I know I started out doing some CBT-based trauma therapy and there was just always felt like there was something missing from it, you know? And now looking back and understanding what I know about trauma being stored in the body. Something we’ve brought up on this show before is how much our bodies, really involved.
In that process of storing trauma and processing trauma. It makes sense. Why just kind of focusing on maybe lies that you believed about the trauma. It was my fault and people could, you could get them to a place where they could say, “okay, well I know it wasn’t my fault”, but it always felt like their fault, you know, internally there was something that resonated in their body that felt that that was very real.
Amanda: It’s like the development, the meaning or the story they create around the trauma. Very, very real. When we’re blaming ourselves for the trauma that happened to us. Now through SE as you work through the trauma and someone is experiencing the impulses, maybe to push away or to set a boundary or to leave a room like it, we’re restoring what they wanted to do in that moment. And there’s something really powerful about them recognizing that their nervous system took over and they really didn’t have a choice in that moment. They have a choice now, as we work through it again, it’s like we have one foot in the past in the story and we have one foot right now in the present. And so we’re restoring that choice to them.
Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really great.
Amanda: And I wanna rephrase that, cause it’s not like we are restoring the choice we’re with them as they restore their choice, right? We’re just with them in it. I feel like that was an important maybe correction around language for me to make, cause it’s not, it’s not about me giving them something. It’s about me being with them as they create something new for themselves.
Carrie: In terms of EMDR, we talk about like, kind of staying out of the way a lot and allowing the brain to do what it needs to do. Do you feel like it’s similar in SE like there’s an element of the body knows what it needs to do and you just kind of have to tap into that and find that out.
Amanda: Definitely. We are always saying that the body knows what to do and to trust it, the body wants to move toward healing. And there are times that it gets stuck, right? There’s a pattern that gets stuck in the body and we are there to help. I love Dave Burger’s word for it. He says “nudge all the time”. He’s like, we’re there to just help nudge it in the right direction. Even sometimes just being with someone is enough for them to start moving in the right direction. Just to know that they’re in the room with somebody who’s regulated and safe.
Carrie: I’m curious, about your thoughts on the Christian faith and SE.
Amanda: Well, I think about, you know, I come from a Christian background. I got my master’s in divinity and I think SE goes hand in hand with my Christian faith. If you think about it. The healing that Jesus did, which he was hands-on. He put hands on people. And I think about that often when I have people in my office and I’m doing work that’s hands on and remembering that it’s just an honor to be with this person, right? There’s this human in front of me that I get to be with in their healing journey. So for me, It goes hand in hand with my faith.
Carrie: So, towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.
Amanda: Most memorable clients, Phil to this day gives me hope. So a young man I worked with years ago and when he came into my office, he was self injuring daily. He had probably 10 to 12 psychiatric hospitalizations a year.
Carrie: Wow!
Amanda: And as we started to journey this path of trauma work and healing, he was very open. You know, he was like, let you know anything that will help. So we did a lot of SE work. Now after about a year of work well, right away, the self injury started to decrease. That was huge for me, cause I wanna know that someone’s safe and, it was just a relief to see that decrease after about a year of work hospitalizations was stopped. Phil’s injuring had stopped. He went back to school, he got his master, he got married. He had a family. I hear from him from time to time and.
Carrie: Wow!
Amanda: He’s got a great job. Life is normal. So, this journey of trauma work of doing his SE work, like it changed his life significantly.
Carrie: And that would be somebody maybe that somebody else would look at and say, well, that person just has no hope. They’re just gonna continue. Repeat this mental health cycle and that they’re stuck in.
Amanda: Yes. That’s right. Or, you know, sometimes therapists feel overwhelmed by it. They’re like, the self-injuring piece or the amount of trauma can be scary for some therapists. If they haven’t had training and helping people who self injure.
I think sometimes clients come in with a feeling of hopelessness around finding someone who will be with them. In those scary moments, but I think trainings, like I see and base, like, they’re, they’re so helpful. I, I wish I could put better words on it, but you know that they are going to help someone in such a deep way that I could just fall back on that. And know like, believe he’s gonna get better, even if my level of skill wasn’t there. I know that this training, I know that this modality is going to be powerful enough to help him.
Carrie: That’s awesome. So I know that we will put your, a link to your website in the show notes. If people like to contact you and reach out to you. What area of the US are you in?
Amanda: I was in Austin for 20 years, but I moved home to central Kentucky right before COVID hit, so, I am just South of Lexington. A small rural town South of Lexington, Kentucky. I’m all in private practice now. And I am working on building a somatic retreat center in an organic farm.
Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s pretty amazing. Well, you’re not as far from me as I thought you were. You’re just across the top of the state there.
Amanda: Where are you?
Carrie: I’m in Smyrna, Tennessee.
Amanda: I thought you were in Texas.
Carrie: We learned something about each other.
Amanda: You did. We did.
Carrie: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate this has been very insightful. I think for people who are looking for a different type of therapy, maybe that they’ve been receiving currently, it’s always good to let people know that there are many different options. So if one doesn’t work for you by all means, try something different.
Amanda: And if I could add one thing, Carrie, it would be that therapies like SEM base, they are so helpful in communities where there’s a stigma around mental health because they really do understand that mental health isn’t this thing. That’s about strength or your willpower or you’re, you know, like go fix your brain.
They really get that trauma is about the way energy got found in your nervous system. And let’s help your physiology recover from it. Found that to be a very powerful way to discuss it. In my community.
Carrie: By the time this episode comes out, hopefully, I will be on maternity leave enjoying lots of baby snuggles. Pray for my sleepless nights. Thank you very much. I actually went to four sessions of somatic experiencing therapy during my pregnancy. Super healing again. I had these experiences of being hospitalized as a child that I had dealt with in therapy in the past, had done some talk therapy, some EMDR therapy, I think even came up during dating with the somatic experiencing therapy.
Everything was rolling along quite nicely until I started to think about having to go into the hospital again. And even though this time I wasn’t going in for an illness or an injury, there was a sense of vulnerability that was getting really triggered up. Going through those few sessions and unpacking my different hospitalizations helped me so much to feel more confident about going into a positive birthing space.
I want to invite you to join our Hope for Anxiety and OCD Facebook group. It’s a really great way for us to be able to get to know our listeners and for you to interact with others who are experiencing similar struggles. We strive really hard to make it a positive space for everyone to come be encouraged and hear what’s helping other people. We will put a direct link in the show notes for you to be able to get there. As always, thank you so much for listening.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me. Carrie Bock, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may be comforted by God’s great love for you.
My guest today is an experienced Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) practitioner and author, Ingrid Ord. Ingrid talks about the connection between ACT and Christianity.
How did Ingrid develop an interest in ACT?
What is ACT, and how does it work?
How does ACT help with anxiety and OCD?
Bible characters who went through hard times and learned to accept their situations.
Carrie: Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 65. If you’re new to the show, I’m your host, Carrie Bock. And we are all about using shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. If you’ve been a fan of the show for a long time, you know that we love to discuss different types of therapy here. I could be helpful for people who are struggling with anxiety or OCD. I like to do that because you always hear people say, “Eh, I tried therapy. It didn’t work for me”. Did therapy not work because it wasn’t the right modality for you? Did therapy not work because you didn’t have a great relationship with your therapist? There are so many variables there that we could die suck.
Today on this show, we are talking with Ingrid Ord, who is a therapist and author of ACT With Faith. ACT is a type of therapy that we’re going to be talking about today. And that stands for Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. If you want the long name, this wasn’t a therapy I knew much about. So, it was interesting to learn from Ingrid. And I know it’s a therapy that’s being incorporated more and more in OCD treatment. I hope you enjoy this interview.
Ingrid, I believe that therapists choose modalities like therapy that align with them personally and professionally. So I’m curious: how did you become so interested in acceptance and commitment therapy, also called ACT?
Ingrid: I’ve been working for a number of years, right? The modality I was in before I went to CBT and REBT was client-centered therapy, which fit me very well. REBT, Rational, Emotive, Behavior, Therapy. And it can be quite very proactive, and I found that quite hard. Then I found ACT, and suddenly, there was a therapy that did everything I’d been training up until that point. But allowed a much softer, gentler approach to actually being in the client’s space and not pulling them into your space.
Carrie: REBT is pretty confrontational.
Ingrid: It’s very confrontational, and you have your disputations. It works really well. They were male lawyers.
Carrie: Certain populations might be necessary for us.
Ingrid: Certain populations. The thing with ACT is that it seems to work at the cold front. It’s one of the few therapies I’ve found that when the patient or the client actually needs it, it works for them.
Carrie: Okay. So, tell us a little bit about what ACT therapy entails.
Ingrid: Well, very much as the name says, within the acceptance part, it’s about willingly accepting that we have experiences that we don’t want and going into the experience. And being with it because these experiences invariably tell us something very important about our values. If I’m anxious about something, it’s probably because it’s something that there’s something in there that’s very important to me. So, if I’m anxious about meeting someone, it could be that it’s very important to me to make a good impression on this person. And why is it important to me? Maybe I’m envisaging a future relationship, a job, or something like that. It’s important to be within the experience itself. It’s tempting not to want to be there, to distract ourselves, and to all the denial stuff. And so the link between accepting what we’ve got in the moment and committing ourselves to taking action will take us in the direction of our values. Never mind what’s going on. What’s very attractive to me?
Carrie: So there’s a sense of I’m accepting that I have anxiety about maybe going to a job interview because I want to look good or I really want a new job, but even though I’m anxious, I’m still going to work through that to the point where I’m committed to saying, I’m still going to put myself out there for this opportunity. I’m still going to the interview, show up, and do my best.
Ingrid: Yes. So you take public speaking is a common problem with many people often, you know, seen this done in, in workshops and I do it myself is to acknowledge to the people there, how anxious I am, but I’m here because this is very important to me putting this across is a very important thing. And so I brought my anxiety was me, and I’m doing it anyway.
Carrie: That’s good. I imagine that you’ve seen that it can help people with anxiety work through avoidance because avoidance feeds that cycle of anxiety and worsens everything.
Ingrid: No, yes. I have a very dear friend in the app community, Robin Molson. She showed me in one of the first workshops. It’s a series of concentric circles. We’re right in the beginning of the circle, is what you are not wondering. And then the next circle will be what you do to avoid it. And then the next circle will be the results of what you’re doing to avoid it. And then there’s another biggest circle, the results of the results. So you end up with a little problem in the middle and the huge amount of consequences from actually avoiding taking action and sitting, you know, doing what you needed to do, whatever it is that you need to do that you’re anxious about.
Carrie: I’m curious about this in terms of OCD. Where people are taking action, but they’re doing things that they don’t want to be doing. They’re engaging in compulsions, trying to get out of repetitive thought patterns. What would ACT say about that?
Ingrid: Well, one of the first things within there is the good old exposure exercises that you do and help the person to expose themselves to the situation so that they actually feel the anxiety. OCD is a specialized sort of area in that not that you have to be specialized, but you need to realize that the obsessions and the compulsions are there in order not to feel the anxiety. So you help the person go backward in the process to hopefully not do the compulsion or let the obsession go. And then, they will feel the anxiety and expose themselves to the feeling of the anxiety as being something totally normal. It’s going to happen.
You have anxiety and are doing all these things to stop yourself from feeling anxiety. That is totally normal, but now it’s all become a big problem on its own.
So we need to unpick that take you backward so that you see that you actually can feel the anxiety. And live and get on with things, and it goes away. It always amazes me how people are so amazed that it goes away that you will stop thinking about this. You will, and it will go away if you stop listening to it and arguing with them.
Carrie: Right. And I think sometimes, in OCD treatment, that first step is really developing an awareness of how this plays out in a person’s life. And then being able to separate, like, I am not my OCD. I’m dealing with OCD.
Ingrid: Oh, yes.
Carrie: But it’s not my character. I may have these obsessions about hurting someone, but that’s not my value system. My value system is in loving people and caring for people. And that’s been shown through their behavior.
Ingrid: Yes, absolutely. And it’s strange that you should mention that about, you know, not me and my values system. Very often that is a factor within OCD is that things are occurring, obsessions, compulsions that are totally in opposition to what their value systems are, which, of course, creates an immense amount of guilt and shame and so on, and actually help the person to understand that because it’s in your value system. That’s why you have these. The very fact that you’re so afraid of that means you’re going to have the obsession of the compulsion.
Carrie: And we’ve talked about this before on the show, I think in your relationship to scrupulosity that people.
Ingrid: Yes.
Carrie: Those who are more spiritual and who have a connection to God are more likely to struggle with scrupulosity if they have OCD. I think that I can really see how this would be helpful for people with that sense of, there’s say, acceptance over the issue. And then you even said something earlier about taking it along with you. Can you talk with us a little bit more about that? Cause I know that that’s also a principle.
Ingrid: I often use the metaphor of a backpacker over the shoulder bag and say, look, you’ve got this thing, and it’s stuck to you, and it’s not going to go away. It’s like one of those magnetic games: as you move, it’s going to move with you. So instead of spinning off, trying to push it away, put it in your backpack, put it in your sling bag, and go and do what you want anyway because it won’t leave you.
So go ahead and do it. And it really helps to visualize it as well. So sometimes, I’ve had somebody visualize a little purple man who was giving her absolutely. I guess you should put them in the bag about herself, esteem, and all arresters and take him with you. And, of course, she must always be careful not to disrespect the mind. You’re not showing disrespect for the mind because the person needs to know your mind is doing its job. It’s just doing it in a bit of a weird way right now.
Carrie: It’s trying to protect you.
Ingrid: We always need to be careful not to undermine the mind’s job and get the person to feel that their mind is somehow defective. That’s actually a very important part of actors. There is nothing wrong with you. You’ve got problems because there’s everything right with you.
Carrie: Oh, wow. This is a very interesting reframe for people.
Ingrid: Isn’t it wonderful?
Carrie: It takes off that shame layer, really.
Ingrid: Yes. And the fear of, you know, am I losing it? I always joke that the least funny joke ever is of all the things I’ve lost in life. I miss my mind the most.
Carrie: I’m curious for you: how does ACT therapy align with faith in God and biblical teaching?
Ingrid: Actually, that’s a very close fit because the stitching with the thing I’m trying to avoid and actually sitting with it and willingly accepting it is much easier as a Christian because I have got the added strength of grace without being a Christian. I willingly accept that struggling against this thing will make me worse, but that’s just pure straight logic, and I learn it through experience, and that’s how it works. But now that I’m a Christian, I know that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord. And so whatever I’m experiencing is somehow going to work towards my good. And if I am in it and with it and thinking about God’s promises, you know what He has promised me here, it increases my faith.
Carrie: Everything is purposeful. I think one thing as Christians that we fight against sometimes. Is, you know, okay, God, why am I going through this? Can you please take it away so that I don’t have to deal with it anymore because it’s uncomfortable and it’s painful. And I know that you have the power to do that. And instead of, like you were saying, really leaning in and saying, okay, there must be some purpose that this experience is here.
Ingrid: Yes.
Carrie: And God has allowed it in my life for some reason or another, you know, maybe it’s to help somebody down the road. That’s going to be going through a similar experience; maybe it’s to grow my character internally, and I could see how this therapy could help you lean into that.
Ingrid: Sometimes it’s to help me to learn something that I really need to learn. You’re like recently after I tell you at the end, but we’ve been living on a boat, and I tend to live in my head, but you can’t when you’re on a boat, and I’ve seen some many beautiful things and outside that I wouldn’t have been part of. Cause that would have been busy in my hand.
Carrie: I know for me right now, I’m dealing with some chronic back pain related to my pregnancy. It’s taught me so much about many different things, but really relying on God, understanding my limitations, and having compassion for my clients with chronic pain. I think that it’s not over yet. So, I think there are probably still more things that I will learn or somehow will grow from this experience of going through it.
But it is hard to accept when you’re in the middle of it. You know, it’s like, I can take my back pain with me to exercise and recognize that I don’t feel like exercising because I’m in pain. But when I start to do the stretching and the yoga and the things that I know will be good for me and the core exercises, I start to feel better. And I know that what I’m doing is not exacerbating anything. It’s trying to help the other muscles support my back and support. So I can see that in what we’re talking about today.
Ingrid: And would you say that it would then help you with empathy was chronic pain patients who sometimes seem to be quite childish, or it helps to have empathy with that to say, I know it feels really, really, really hard.
Carrie: Sure. Have you seen in terms of biblical characters that you’ve studied how they may have accepted a situation and then acted based on it?
Ingrid: One of the things that mean a lot to me is the three Hebrew children, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, being thrown in the fire. And they said,” I think it was never that our God could save us from the fire, but even if he doesn’t, we still weren’t worshipping here.” That’s been a lot to me. There’ve been a few occasions in my life where, you know, you’re up against it, and it’s like, do this or else. And even if God doesn’t save me. So that’s one and the other one, really his job, even though he slays me when I trust him.
Carrie: Yes.
Ingrid: I struggle to get through this without getting emotional. But there’ve been very, very hard times in my life where that’s resonated in my head that God, I don’t know what you’re doing. And it feels like this is killing me, but I trust you.
Carrie: Tell us a little about the book you wrote, “ACT With Faith.”
Ingrid: Well, I wrote it initially. The audience I chose was non-Christian therapists because I believe that there are many out there who are highly competent and would be very willing to work with Christians. With their own belief because, you know, ACT has a pragmatic Trist criteria which states that whatever the client believes is the truth in that room at that time. So even with a non-Christian therapist, Christian clients’ truths are what’s important.
So, I thought I’d put out there what Christian truth is in terms of the six ACT processes or the six major processes lined in ACT. So, the therapists could relate process by process to various aspects of Christians’ beliefs. And I also wanted to give them eight for their Christian clients. So I put in a whole lot of appendices, which a client hands out, but if there’s something they don’t understand, like grace, they can hand it to their clients, and their clients can see how it relates to the whole ACT process.
Carrie: I like that a lot. Who has been resonating with the book, or have there been other people as well that have picked up on it, maybe clients that have read it and resonated with it or a Christian therapist?
Ingrid: I found it actually at a wide range of people because many clients have resonated with it. And people who are not Christians. People have come to me to say, “How can we adapt this for Muslim clients?” or I am trying to help and explain to them that the way I work is to say if I have a Muslim or Hindu or another religion, we have a religious book, and this is what it says. And I’m sure there are some things similar to this in your book. Can we see if we can find it? And there is something like if we’re dealing with marriage or relationship issues or whatever. People who are Christians who are not Christians
Carrie: That’s awesome.
Ingrid: In a very wide range of people.
Carrie: Towards the end of every podcast. I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.
Ingrid: Kind of alluded to this, but in 2018, my husband and I both felt that God was indicating to us to leave South Africa and return to the UK. The unfortunate part about it was that we would have nothing because of, you know, exchange rates, etcetera. Various factors meant that we would arrive here was nothing. We have about, so we’ve lived on the boat. It wasn’t supposed to be for three or four years, but that has been that, and it’s been very hard. The summers are beautiful, of course. And that’s what I was alluding to earlier with, you know, at being outside, seeing the nature it’s beautiful. But winters are tough, and we applied for housing, and it’s taken a very long time; we were approved in June, and it’s been hanging on hanging on. And today we got the large vacation, the house we love is ready, we can move it next week.
Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really beautiful. It’s hard to wait on those types of things, but praise God.
Ingrid: It’s very hard, it’s very hard to wait, and that’s been what I was, you know, about Joe, and I’ve been very ill on the boat at times, just saying to the Lord, “Okay, I know you have this in hand, I know you have it in half.” It takes you a bit longer than order a life.
Carrie: Yes.
Ingrid: I know we are both very excited about that.
Carrie: It’s really being able to trust that he’s going to take care of things.
Ingrid: And, of course, deal. But you know, we’ve had to do quite a lot of, you know, applying and sorting and working and, so we do our bit.
Carrie: Sure.
Ingrid: But God is there, and he’s in control. And he knows exactly, and we couldn’t have chosen if I’d had to draw a little cottage that I would love to be in. I couldn’t have done anything more beautiful than what we’ve actually got.
Carrie: I’m so excited for you to be able to move into your place. And thank you so much for having this conversation about ACT with us. We’ll put links to your website and the book in case people want to learn more.
Ingrid: Great. Thanks, Carrie. Nice talking to you. And I hope the rest of your pregnancy goes well or you don’t have a bad backache.
Carrie: Thank you. Thank you.
Have you had any personal experience with acceptance and commitment therapy?
I think it would be interesting to have someone on the show from the client’s perspective. I wanted to share with you something that I’m very excited about, and that is what we now have: a Hope for Anxiety and OCD Facebook group. I know not all of you are on Facebook. It has its good things and bad things about it for sure. However, we wanted to create an opportunity for listeners to really interact with each other. And interact with myself. I’m hoping this will really help expand our audience reach because there are many people who still don’t know about the show. While at the same time, getting to know those of you who are listening on a regular basis. We will put a link for you to that group in the show notes and hope you will join us over there. Thank you so much for listening.
Well Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bock, a licensed professional counselor in Tennessee. Opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself or By the Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum. Until next time, be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Hope for anxiety and OCD episode 64 today’s episode is a solo episode where I wanna talk with you about how we unintentionally increase our own suffering. This is something that I feel like God has taught me through a process of more recent suffering. And I wanted to share it with you because even though my suffering was physical and then it turned into emotional suffering was like secondary.
As a result of the physical suffering. What I realized through the process was that people do the same things with emotional pain. So they experience emotional pain due to anxiety, O C D depression, other mental health issues. And then there’s this increase in more emotional pain in response to that initial pain and suffering.
As I’m recording this right now, I’m about 32 weeks pregnant. But when I was going through some intense physical pain, it was a lot earlier in my pregnancy, probably around, you know, weeks, 15. 20. I started experiencing this back pain. That was unexplainable. I didn’t know where it was coming from. I didn’t think I had done anything specific to have the back pain.
It was in a weird spot, but I was trying all of the self-help things that I knew to do. To help it such as, you know, providing heat for the sore muscles, looking up exercises, you know, what are some good back exercises during pregnancy? It got to a point where it wasn’t getting better. It was just progressively getting worse and worse and worse to the point where it was a daily occurrence.
And then I was essentially living for. The time that I could lay down, I would sit up, meet with clients. And then if I had any kind of break lunch or after work, I’d just lay down and collapse and put the heating pad on me. And that was about what I could do for several weeks. I would try to stretch or do some light exercises.
Sometimes I ended up aggravating some other areas of my body. What I. As I was experiencing that physical pain was that then there came some emotional pain that got latched in and connected to it. I started having. All kinds of thoughts about my pregnancy. Maybe I shouldn’t have gotten pregnant. Maybe this wasn’t a good idea.
At my age, if I had known I was gonna have to go through all of this physical pain, I wouldn’t have done it. I was angry at my doctor, who I felt like had set me up for failure because she had told me going into this process that I was healthy. I was angry at myself for not knowing more or not knowing how to fix this issue.
I was angry at God. You know, why have you allowed so many people around me to have good and healthy and you know, relatively pain, free pregnancies. And I’m over here suffering with all of this discomfort. So early on, and I know I still have over half of my pregnancy to go, what’s going on with that?
These thoughts would just keep churning around in my head. I couldn’t seem to find some kind of resolution for them or some kind of landing point to get to. And the thoughts themselves increased my own suffering because. . I was starting to think things like, okay, I have this many weeks of pregnancy to go.
I’ve got 23 weeks of pregnancy to go. Am I going to be in physical pain this whole time? Because I’m at a certain size right now, but I’m only going to get bigger if my back can’t handle this point in time. Then what’s gonna happen when I am in the third trimester where everybody says you have back pain, like I already have back pain in the second trimester and I can’t handle it now.
How in the world am I going to be able to handle it later? I went through. A two week period where I cried every single day, I was completely depressed and hopeless. My doctor had told me, well, you know, maybe this will get better. Maybe it won’t. And that was not what I needed to hear at that point. I needed her to give me some hope of let’s try X, Y, and Z to help these things.
Get better for you so that you don’t have to continue in suffering. But I had really held onto that, that this pain might not go away for the rest of my pregnancy. I remember one day I was lying in bed and I just started crying before I even got out of bed. And Steve came by, I was like, you know, what’s going on?
I don’t even wanna get outta bed because I know I’m gonna be in pain today. And I know I’m gonna have to deal with that and I don’t wanna deal with it. I don’t wanna do. When I got to really my lowest point, which is very scary to talk about, but I wanna share it because, you know, we all have really, really low points in our life and we have dark thoughts that we don’t ever talk about.
And so I. Just wanted to share one of mine, I guess, for, to make somebody out there feel a little bit less strange or less crazy in some way. I remember just praying and, and asking God that, that I could not be pregnant anymore. And that he just needed to take my baby because I could not handle this pain for.
20 more weeks. I could not do it anymore. And just cried and cried and cried. And I felt so guilty. Like I must be this absolute, horrible person. Like I just prayed. And I asked God to take my baby. Like how awful is that? So in the midst of going through this whole process, I had these emotions surrounding knowing that I have other people in my life who have been unable to have children that I love very much and other people in my life who are in the process of trying to have children.
And I thought, you know, you’re really ungrateful. You’re awful for thinking these thoughts because these people would love to be pregnant and they would love to have children. Certainly compounded to the emotional distress. Then not only was I feeling certain feelings and having very distressing thoughts, then I was compounding it by telling myself how wrong I was to have these thoughts and how wrong I was to have these feelings.
None of that help. Whenever we tell ourselves you don’t get to feel that instead of actually acknowledging our own feeling, we’re increasing our own suffering. Similar to thought sometimes feelings just happen. They just come up and we don’t even know why they’re there, but instead of shoving them down, trying to ignore them, not acknowledge them.
It’s better for us to be able to say, okay, I’m experiencing anger. Where I’m experiencing sadness, I’m experiencing anxiety. It’s okay for me to acknowledge that feeling. And then it’s also okay for me to be able to say, what can I do to help myself express release this emotion? Let it go and allow myself to enter into a calmer space or a happier space.
Those two things are not incongruent with each other. I just want to help you understand that sometimes people think if they acknowledge their emotion, that they’re going to somehow be stuck in. That typically isn’t usually the case. It’s more typical that if you acknowledge it and are able to process it and kind of allow it to flow through you, like a wave goes up and then you express it in a healthy way, hopefully, and then it comes down.
You’re able to release it and get to a place of feeling better. The more that you try to fight the wave, the longer it tends to stick around in an unhealthy sense. During this process, I was seeing a counselor who I ended up firing kind of funny because I really didn’t like what she had to say, even though she was right.
She told me that I needed to work on mindfulness skills and I. I don’t understand this. Like I know how to be mindful. I teach people mindfulness practice. I have a podcast episode on mindfulness. Like what, why are you telling me about mindfulness? Like how is that actually going to help this chronic pain issue that I’m dealing with?
After I fired her, actually went on Amazon and started looking for a book on. Mindfulness and pain. I found this book called you are not your pain by Birch and Penman. That absolutely transformed my experience with my pain. Having the physical pain is one thing or the emotional pain, but what Birch and Penman talk about is that we have primary suffering and we have secondary suffer.
Primary suffering is a physical sensation of pain or for people with anxiety. There’s a physical sensation that comes along with that. So it might be like a rapid heartbeat or difficulty breathing. There might be just a lot of tension in your body when you’re anxious. And so that’s the primary suffering.
Your primary suffering could be mental as well. Like constant worry. You know, I just can’t seem to get away from my thought process. It’s just going all the time and worrying about the future. But secondary suffering is like that piece that comes next. It’s that piece that we add on. So for the person with the rapid heartbeat, the secondary suffering is they tell themselves I’m dying.
When really they’re having a panic attack and understandably so when people first start to learn that they have panic attack, sometimes they don’t know. Sometimes they really do think they’re dying, but after you learn, oh, okay, this is a panic attack. This is something different. Then it’s like, you can reframe it and say, you know, there’s a difference between telling yourself my heart’s beating really fast and telling yourself I’m dying.
So my primary suffering was. Physical pain, but my secondary suffering was, I’m never gonna get out of this. I’m gonna have it for 20 more weeks. I don’t know how I’m going to get through this. I can’t do it anymore. I can’t face another day. God, why won’t you take this away? All of those things, the regret thoughts about I shouldn’t have ever gotten.
You know, I, I did this to myself. Why did I do this? Why did this happen? God, why did you allow me to become pregnant? If you knew I was gonna end up in this pain, all of that churning stuff is the secondary suffering. What I talk about in this book, you are not your pain is that mindfulness will help decrease your secondary suffering.
And as you decrease your. Secondary suffering then sometimes your primary suffering decreases as well. Not always, but at least you will have a different perspective on your primary suffering than you did before. One thing I learned for myself is that secondary suffering involves a process of grief and loss.
In my experience, I could remember thinking, I went into this thinking, I’m gonna have a healthy pregnancy. I’m gonna be a fit pregnant person that continues to work out. I had these expectations right. Of what it was going to be like. And then my expectations were completely blown out of the water.
Because all of a sudden I couldn’t work out. I couldn’t even do day to day life stuff that I needed to do. That was really hard for me to sit with knowing that when I used to be a member of the Y for example, I would go to these Zumba classes and there would be pregnant women in there dancing around and doing just fine.
And. You know, I thought that that was gonna be me one day and it wasn’t. I had to grieve that and be, really allow myself to be sad about that. I had to allow myself to be sad and also angry about the fact that I was now having to do extra things, such as go to physical therapy that I didn’t plan on doing and didn’t want to do quite frankly.
I didn’t want to go to physical therapy and do these exercises and have somebody poke on my back. I didn’t want to do those things, but that was what I needed to do. It was okay for me to be sad about that. It was okay for me to be angry. I really missed my workout. Endorphins a lot. I miss them so much.
And I realized that through that process, that was something that I had to grieve. I was never one that said, yes, I like to work out. I absolutely wanna do it. I would always tell people, I love the effects of working out. I love the fact that I can sleep better. I love the fact that I feel better physically and emotionally, I had to grieve loss of social experiences.
Things that I was invited to or things that I wanted to do where I had to tell people, you know, I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to commit to that or not, because I don’t know how I’m going to be legitimately feeling on that day. And I had to admit to people that I had limitations. That I wasn’t sure if my back was gonna be able to handle sitting for that long or standing for that long or whatever the situation entailed.
That was hard for me. I had always been so healthy and one of the things that God showed me through this process was how much pride I had put in my own physical health as something like I have control over it. I think that’s a very. Probably American mindset of like, well, you know, if you just eat the right foods and you exercise and you’re gonna be in good health, the reality is we don’t have control over that.
Guys. You could be a super healthy person and wake up tomorrow with cancer. We’re not in control of our health. A hundred percent, like we think we are. And that was something that I realized that it was out of my control, that was distressing for me. And I had to come to a place of humility and surrender to say, okay, this is where I’m at in my life.
This is a part of my process. I will tell you though, that during that two weeks where I was so depressed and so angry, I knew that I was in this grief and loss process. I knew that I hadn’t come to a place of acceptance. It was like, I couldn’t quite get there. I didn’t know like what I needed to get to that place of acceptance.
Maybe you’re at a point in your life where you’re dealing with anxiety and you hate it so much. Or you’re dealing with O C D and it’s like, you’re constantly trying to fight it because you hate it so much. And maybe. You need to get to that point of acceptance that for whatever reason, this is my season right now of suffering.
It may feel like it’s been a very long season and I hear you on that, but we can’t make positive changes and move forward. If we aren’t willing to first, except where we’re at really think about that. You can’t move forward. If you aren’t accepting of where your starting point is. You can’t run a marathon overnight.
When you’ve been sitting on the couch, you can’t expect your emotional self to be able to do certain things. If you haven’t exercised those emotional muscles, when you’re dealing with secondary suffering, you also have to guard your heart and mind in terms of what other people tell you because other people’s experience.
Are not your experience. If there’s anything that will teach you about the dumbest things people can say to you, it’s when you’re pregnant. I mean, it’s just absolutely unreal. Some of the stuff that people come out with, but I had different people tell me, oh, when I was pregnant, that was just the best that I felt in my whole.
Girl, granted, some of those people didn’t know that I was dealing with chronic pain when they said that to me, but I thought that is exactly what I don’t need to hear right now, because that’s certainly not my experience. Then you start to think to yourself, what’s wrong with me? If they had that experience, why couldn’t I have that experience?
And I’m sure this has happened to you. If you’ve dealt with anxiety for any period of time, you’ve had someone come up to you and say, oh yeah, I used to deal with anxiety. And there was this revival service at church and they prayed over me and I’m no longer anxious and I’m just walking in the Lord’s victory.
And if that’s someone’s story, like, that’s awesome. That’s great for them, but that’s not a lot of people’s story. Um, not the people that I’ve worked with anyway, that. Typically been their story. We have to be careful not to compare ourselves to other people. We have to say, this is a journey that the Lord has me on.
And he’s the one that gets to speak into that journey. And other godly people get to speak into that journey. But no one else can tell me exactly how my specific journey, whether it’s with pain, whether it’s with anxiety, whether it’s with pregnancy, whatever it is, nobody can tell me exactly how that’s gonna go for me, except for God.
He knows what that path is like. After I went through my two week crying period. I started to seek God for some answers. Okay. What does it actually mean to depend on you on a daily basis? What does it actually mean that your power is made perfect in weakness? Of course, these are things that I’ve heard.
My whole life, but I didn’t know how they applied to my specific situation. I’m not gonna say that that God showed up and spoke to me audibly or anything of that through that time, other than God just gave me peace to do the next thing. My planning self who loves to plan and set goals and knows what she’s doing next week and next month really had to reign back in and be put on.
And say, I’m gonna do what I can do today. I was in a bit of a survival mode. I had to be okay with that. Going back to that acceptance piece, I had to be able to accept, you know what, right now I’m just in a survival mode and I’m just looking at things day by day. Sometimes not even day by day, sometimes just morning, afternoon, evening.
What is reasonable? For me to accomplish right now, a lot of things fell by the wayside. During that time, I wasn’t super happy that they were falling by the wayside, but I also knew that I was doing the absolute best that I could do. There were a lot of dinners that didn’t get cooked. There were a lot of grocery shopping trips that didn’t get done, maybe laundry progress notes for therapy.
There were a lot of things that had to be done later. I came to a place of acceptance that I’m doing the best that I can do in this moment. And that’s all I can do moving forward. It’s super important for us to understand what kind of season that we’re in, because oftentimes we are longing for a different season.
We’re longing for someone else’s season. We’re longing for a season that we used to have in the past, instead of really examining God, speaking to him in prayer and examining ourselves to say, Okay. What season is it that you have for me right now, at this point in time, that applies to so many different areas of our life.
I knew that a lot of my secondary suffering had to do with catastrophizing futuristic thinking where everything’s horrible, terrible, awful. I’m never gonna be able to get outta this pain. You know, how in the world am I going to give birth? If I can’t even get around. All kinds of thoughts that were happening to me after that two week period of crying, I don’t know what the shift was for me.
I know I was able to talk with my doctor who recommended that I get on an antidepressant genuinely. I was depressed. Maybe that was my wake up call that I wanted to shift and change things and look at them differently. I didn’t want to get on an antidepressant at that point. Not because I don’t believe in antidepressants, you know, we’ve, we’ve certainly talked about reducing shame surrounding medication on the show.
I’ve, I’ve been on an antidepressant in the path. That’s not a problem. But what I realized was that my depression was secondary. To my suffering with pain. And if I could work towards reducing some of my suffering surrounding pain, I wouldn’t be depressed and I would be able to move forward. I was able to talk with my doctor about why in the world did this happen, or how did I end up here?
Because I think I was taking responsibility for somehow being in this position. Like I talked about before, just kind of that feeling like I should be in control of my own health. What my doctor told me basically was that we don’t know how people are gonna react or how their bodies are gonna react when they get pregnant.
There’s lots of things that happen with hormones that I learned about that can affect your ligaments and your muscles, and really just throw things outta whack all over your body. Even though they’re trying to help certain areas of your body be prepared to give birth. That conversation I know was healing for me.
I know I also had some conversations with Steve and with our doula who I had recently hired at that point that were healing conversations for me to help me get back on track. All I can say is that God gave me some type of clarity of mind at some point, to be able to sit down, write down specifically some of these repetitive thoughts that had been coming up.
Some of the things that I had been thinking over and over and over, such as I regret getting pregnant was one of them that I wrote down. And God gave me these words to counteract these thoughts. Instead of saying I regret getting pregnant wish I had never gotten pregnant. And then I wouldn’t be dealing with this painful experience.
I wrote down that I’ve waited many years to have a family. I didn’t choose chronic pain or difficult pregnancy, but I choose my daughter and it’s not my fault that I’m in this pain and I don’t understand why it’s happening, but I know that it is happening. I had a thought about this pain will last the next 16 weeks until my daughter’s born.
It’s only going to get worse as I get bigger. And then I wrote down, but God knows how the next 16 weeks are going to go. It could get better. It could get worse. I can only deal with today’s pain today. If there’s pain tomorrow, I will not be able to deal with it until tomorrow. That for me was probably the biggest revelation and goes back to that place of mindfulness, right?
Like I can’t deal with tomorrow’s anxiety. I can only deal with today’s anxiety that I feel right now here in the moment. You cannot predict how O C D is going to go for you in one year. In two years, you can only say, okay, what can I do about these obsessive thoughts today? What can I do about the compulsions that I really wanna engage in today?
As you’re more mindful, you notice that some days are better than others. That was my experience. I did go through several weeks of physical therapy. My process, I thought was going to be much more linear than it actually was. I thought, okay. I’m gonna go to therapy, I’m gonna do these exercises. I’m gonna practice like I’m supposed to, and then it’s gonna be kind of this straight diagonal line upward.
Why I had this idea. I have no idea because I work with people all the time on emotional pain and I. Tell them constantly. That’s not how it works. You know, you have some ups, you have some downs, you start to feel a little bit better, and then you have a setback or you have a major trigger that happens.
And that doesn’t mean that you’re not making progress. It just means that it’s not that neat diagonal line. So kind of comically looking back on it. I’m like, why did I think that my pain was going to be any different, but I really did. And that was interesting because, you know, no one had really communicated with me what this process was going to be like in terms of physical therapy and, and working through this pain.
And this discomfort, I did have some pretty significant setbacks of experiencing pretty intense, pure forms, muscle pain, and spasms. If you don’t know what your pure form muscle does, it basically turns your leg from straight to out and it’s in your butt. Let me tell you when that muscle is in pain. You know it because I could not even roll over in the bed without that acting up and aggravating, that was very disheartening to me to have my back start to feel a little bit better.
And then this muscle completely go out of whack. I had one side that I was able to get better and then, you know, not too long after the other side majorly acted up and was got me down kind of in the bed for a little while. Even through that experience, I was able to learn if I sit too long, that’s not so good for me.
If I stand too long, that’s not so good for me. If I alternate heat. Nice. That feels a little bit better. I just had to try out a lot of different things. I really relate that over to anxiety as well as you start to kind of notice. What your experiences, what your triggers are, what kind of things have, have been helpful to you?
What kind of things haven’t been helpful to you? Then you can start to adjust how you approach the anxiety. One of the things that they have you do in the book, you’re not your pain is kind of go through some different activities and look at, you know, did your, did your pain increase with these activities?
Did it decrease? Did it stay about the same. And as you’re really kind of like just tuning into that whole process, then you’re able to have realistic expectations for yourself. A lot of times what we do is as we start to get better, then we put too much on our plate. And then we have a setback because we expected too much out of ourselves.
This can be a yoyo cycle, like for anxiety where maybe you engage and then you withdraw. And then you engage and you withdraw because you engaged a little bit too much, for example, or you tried to do too much. Besides mindfulness. Another thing that can be helpful for secondary suffering is gratitude. I had to get to a place where I was thankful for the things that I could do or be thankful for the days that I could do them because there were some days that I couldn’t do them.
And as I was able to develop more gratitude that allowed some of that pain to lessen, there is this interaction we have to understand between our mind and our bodies. There’s a two-way flow to it. Right? So our body is listening to what our mind is telling it. And then our body’s experience is kind of.
Traveling back up to the mind and informing it, you know? So there’s this two way street that’s happening all the time that we’re inter interacting with. And if we don’t take care of both of those components, then we’re going to be missing something. I’m really thankful that. I got to share this part of my story with you today, because it makes me feel like I didn’t go through all that in vain.
And maybe when somebody else has a thought that is, is really dark or out there, they’ll go back. And remember this episode, you know, maybe you feel less alone today in your experiences. I think if there is something that I could go back and encourage my earlier pregnant self with, it would be to go ahead and embrace physical therapy.
I had a really hard time with this for some reason, which is ironic because I’m always telling people that it’s okay to get help. But for some reason, in this experience, I was super ashamed of going to physical therapy. Somehow, I was supposed to be able to figure this out myself because I had been doing fitness and stretching and yoga and different things for years.
And I also didn’t fully understand the concept of physical therapy. Nobody took the time to. Break it down for me and explain these people are specifically skilled to be able to diagnose where exactly your pain is coming from. And in my case, it was being referred from a different area, which is why it didn’t make sense.
They can help you with specific exercises to target those specific areas. I think my concept of physical therapy prior to pregnancy was. Well, you know, if you have surgery, you get physical therapy, or if you had an injury, you get physical therapy. But I thought who gets physical therapy for being pregnant?
Apparently it’s a thing. And a lot of people do because there’s so many things that happen with your muscles and all of that and ligaments and different things, stretching out. If I could go back and tell my earlier self something, it would be it’s okay to get this help. And it doesn’t mean that you’re doing something wrong.
It just means that you need the knowledge, skills, and abilities that these people have in order to get yourself to a better place. I think in a similar way, some people don’t understand exactly what mental health therapy is all about. They have these pictures from TV, like, oh, you’re gonna lay down a couch and someone’s just gonna ask you about how you feel.
There’s a lot more to it than that. If you’ve been listening to our show, you know that, but we have these misperceptions right. About what getting help is like, and that keeps us from actually getting the help or we think is that really gonna help me? Or can I do this on my. I want to let you all know if you didn’t know that we have an email list where I’ve been really striving to send out emails every week.
This has also been a one step forward, two step back I’ll I’ll do it for a few weeks and then fall off the BWA and do it for a few more weeks, but I’m really striving to be consistent in putting things out there that are helpful and beneficial for you guys. If you want to join our email list, you can do that by going to hope for anxiety and ocd.com.
There’s a way on the homepage for you to be able to subscribe. And as a gift to you, you also get to listen to my color breathing, exercise that some of my clients have really enjoyed over the. I have some great interview episodes that I’ve been saving up for you guys on different types of therapy.
We’re gonna talk with someone about somatic experiencing therapy and about acceptance and commitment therapy. So I’m super excited to share those interviews with you guys pretty soon. So stay tuned. Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of by the well counseling. Our show is hosted by me, Carrie Bach, licensed professional counselor in Tennessee opinions given by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the use of myself or by the well counseling.
Our original music is by Brandon Mangram until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
Matt is a licensed professional counselor and the clinical director of Boulder Recovery. He initially sought a career in church ministry, but moved into the mental health field and started working with individuals recovering from sexual addiction.
The connection between anxiety, attachment trauma and sex/porn addiction
How does addiction develop?
How does addiction affect anxiety?
The link between childhood experience and addiction.
How does shame around unwanted sexual behaviors affect one’s relationship with God?
Carrie: Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD where we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. I’m your host, Carrie Bock. And today we are going to be talking about an important topic that affects a lot of Christians and non-Christians and that’s sex porn addiction.
We’re gonna talk about the connection between anxiety, attachment trauma and these issues. So if you’ve tuned into the show before you know that we’re not shy about talking about different issues that people face that are connected to anxiety. So here today, I have Matt Wininger, who is a licensed professional counselor and also the clinical director of Boulder recovery in Colorado. Welcome to the show.
Matt: Thank you, Carrie. Thanks for having me.
Carrie:So today we’re talking about sex porn addiction, which is an issue that many Christian men deal with. Do you see this issue as being as prevalent in the church as outside the church?
Matt:Oh yeah. It’s hard to understate the breadth of this addiction. I mean, we live in such a, um, saturated world when it comes to sex and objectification of women and, and men, and it affects it. Doesn’t, it doesn’t really seem to know like a boundary between the secular and the Christian world. Most of the men that I’ve treated both in secular context in, in Christian programs, uh, have been Christian.
I think that there’s just an increased level of, of shame around it for Christians and they, they seek out treatment, but this knows no bounds. It’s an epidemic really.
Carrie: Right. And really thanks to the internet. It’s very easy to keep the secret and keep it hidden. I mean, now, um, people have not just computers, but smartphones and tablets. And oftentimes this can go on for a while before anyone else really knows.
Matt: Yeah. I mean, it’s changed so much, you know, when you work with the older guys and we, I just, I see men exclusively for this. A lot of times they’ll talk about how it started, you know, magazines and print and things like that. And you just have to go to the corner store or, or whatever, to get a magazine or, or something like that. And, um, there was a little bit of a barrier there, you know, to have to leave your house and go and purchase something in person. But right now it’s, I mean, you can get, you can get some of this content for less than a dollar.
You can get it anytime you want. You can get some of it for free on your phone, in your pocket at any time. And there’s a myriad ways of hiding. What it is that you’re doing. And, and in some ways it’s more difficult to deal with than even some substance addiction, just because of the ease of access and that how easy it is to get it in terms of cost.
Carrie: That makes sense, because it’s also something that you can run into even when you’re not looking for it. And that happens to, to children sometimes on the internet, they’re searching for something else and this pops up and, you know, next thing you know, that’s, that’s a scary rabbit hole to go. From the outside, people really see addiction as a problem, but it actually starts out as a solution to a problem, help us understand kind of how addictions develop.
Matt: I believe that addictions arise to regulate an unregulated nervous Sy regulated nervous system. So what I mean by that is addiction arises to cope with sensations within the body that feel overwhelming.
So an unregulated nervous system is, you know, things that are shooting me up to an 11 in my nervous system, like rapid heartbeat, uh, difficulty breathing, those kinds of things, or crashing me down into what we would call kind a dorsal response or, or, or a frozen response. So there’s that fight or flight is at the 11 and the dorsal is kind of that negative one where I’m in that frozen.
And I can get a dysregulated nervous system in a lot of ways, but what we call that is just trauma, right? Where, um, something is overwhelming my brain overwhelming my nervous system. And I, I lose the ability to process. Whenever I get a, a memory that’s associated with that or an experience in my day-to-day life that’s associated with that.
I associated with that trauma. Then it’s gonna put me back in that place in my nervous system. So people talk about this all the time. Being triggered, you know, triggered by something, um, traumatic from the past. Well, it has an effect on our nervous system, not just, you know, the way we feel emotion, it can put us into that fight or flight space, or it can put us into that place of shutdown and withdraw or frozen.
That can lead to addictions as an outside source of regulation that I can reach out for something to calm my nervous system down, or to bring it up out of that frozen space. So guys will often say like, oh, I’m was so stressed, I’m stressed. And I just overwhelmed and I need to release or come down from that 11 or stress relief. Or I need to feel something. I was stuck in a depressive state and I had to like shoot up out of that at Boulder recovery, we use the Tena model, which is called trauma-induced sexual addiction. So it linked traumatic events to the dysregulation in your nervous system. And as your nervous system is disregulated, it cries out for coping cries out for relief.
It cries out to regulate. And if I had that early trauma between zero and 20 years old and a maladaptive sexual experience, like early exposure to pornography or, um, molestation or sexual abuse or something like that, and that stuff kinda wires together, that every time I need to cope. I can go to that thing that I was exposed to, and that feels, I feel okay for a little bit.
I feel like comforted or nurtured or calm or peaceful. I, my nervous system comes down or I begin to feel when I, when I was empty or hollow. And as long as if I keep going back to that as a young person into my teenage years and into adulthood, I keep going back again and again and again, again, and now I’m dealing with addiction.
This kind of rut and my brain has been formed and wherever the ditch is dug, the water’s gonna flow. Right. And so, again and again, and again, and then all of a sudden I’m what, what you described as a solution, which what was once, um, wanted, is now needed to feel okay on a day-to-day kind of basis. And that’s the transition between something that’s just coping.
And now that is addiction something that wanted or something that was a solution to a problem of how I felt dysregulated and emotion that I did not like, or was not comfortable. Has now become a problem because of the compulsivity around it and the way in which it is damaging my life.
Carrie: Right. And all of a sudden, there’s, there’s more problems that end up happening, like relationship issues. So do you find that a lot of times brings men into treatment?
Matt: Oh yeah. A classic thing in addiction, right? Like gotta hit rock bottom before you’re gonna really do something about it, but nine times outta 10, you guys are coming to see us. They got caught, but that’s what doesn’t tell the whole story because part of it is they are a relief.
They’re tired, they’re sick and tired, of doing this. They’re sick and tired of living that way. And when they do get caught, their whole life blows up and maybe they’re ready to give it up and maybe they’re not, but they’re tired of living that way. And just living on that rollercoaster too.
So sometimes guys come and see us because they really wanna work on themselves and they want to get better and they wanna find health. And then sometimes more often than not, it’s, it’s a, it’s a crisis, you know, it’s a response to crisis in their relationship,
Carrie: Right. In order to get help for these types of things, you really have to be willing to examine yourself and start to look at some of those painful feelings that you’ve been avoiding and that’s really hard work to do. And so oftentimes people don’t seek that out until their situation becomes too painful. That, that they’re forced to deal with that.
Matt: Yeah. And I think you’re right. And the crazy thing about emotions and trauma is that they’re going on all of the time, whether we acknowledge them or not.
And sure. And if I can like spend decades of just shoving it down and ignoring it. And I think that I’m dealing with it. That’s just false. It’s affecting my life in, in every which way emotions will be dealt with one way or the other. Either we face them and we deal with them and the pain and whatever else around them, or they’re gonna come sideways.
They’re gonna come out as passive-aggressive. They’re gonna come out as rage. They’re gonna come out as anxiety. They’re gonna come. You know, you, you can. Kind of joke around with guys about how, you know, they’ve been, they think that they’ve been dealing with anxiety by using their addiction, but really what they’re doing is just exponentially causing more anxiety in their life. And the thing that they’re trying to get a solution for is creating even more of the same, the irony in that is apparent, but oh man, addiction is going to the same thing again and again, and again, expecting different results. And so you can joke with guys, but it’s deadly serious that if you don’t get treatment, then it’s gonna escalate and it’s gonna get worse for.
Carrie: Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. You talked about this a little bit before, just in terms of regulation of the nervous system. Talk with us a little bit more about that connection that you’ve seen between. The early childhood experiences, the anxiety and the sexual addiction.
Matt: Sure. I kind of talk about it in two ways. Well, there’s attachment wounds that are kind of at the core of this, right? With that tr traumatic attachment wounds. So sometimes the trauma can happen outside the home and the primary caregivers don’t do a great job of dealing with it. Right. They try to ignore it or they try to minimize it or you, Hey, you’re fine.
We’re all fine. Everybody’s fine. And um, sometimes guys will tell me that was more damaging than the trauma that happened outside the home.
Carrie: I’ve heard that as well. Yeah, just the response or lack of response to it.
Matt: Yeah. And, and, and that’s really sad. You know, I worked with a guy who was kidnapped and when the police found him, his parents never brought it up ever again.
And he, that, for him that was more damaging than, than the actual event in the sexual abuse that happened during the kidnapping to have him describe it. There’s kind of that trauma that happens outside the home, but the real damage I think is done with the primary caregiver. So either in that kind of, uh, dismissal or denial or, um, minimization of emotion within the home, which we call like a cold box, the emotions there are cold.
You know, big caregivers have their back turned to the young person. Emotionally vacant would be another phrase there or the hot box where there’s a lot of emotion, but it’s chaos and there’s violence or abuse, uh, physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, all the sexual abuse. So in the hot box, the kid is reaching out for connection and support and validation and love and all that stuff.
But in response, they’re getting hurt and they’re getting abused. Even if they’re being told that they’re loved, they’re not being treated that way. And in the cold box, the kids reaching out the same way again and again, and again, to get their needs met, but they’re being ignored or invalidated, or there’s this cold, emotionally vacant response as the parents are distracted by something else and they can’t or want pay attention to, to the young.
So what happens is in both of those scenarios, the kid will reach out again and again and again for connection and validation. And what they’re doing when they’re reaching out for that is they’re. Mom dad or whoever, uh, help me, help me understand my world, help me understand where I’m feeling, help me calm down, nurture me, cultivate me, comfort me.
All of those things. That’s how you develop a healthy nervous system is you co-regulate with a secure and safe person when you’re. As your brain and your nervous system develops. But if you don’t get that and they’re either abusing you or dismissing you or they well, hot box or cold box, then the kid eventually says, this person is not safe.
They’re not consistent. And so I cannot get my needs met through this person. So all guys that I’ve talked to that struggle with sex addiction have either said this out loud, or they’ve said it to themselves. I guess I have to take care of myself.
Carrie: Wow. So I have to be the one to meet my own needs because mom or dad is not available to meet those needs for me.
Matt: Yeah. And so what do I do right. I don’t have this person to co-regulate with, I don’t have this person to help physiologically help me form my, a regulated nervous system. So I have to rely on some, and then there incomes that maladaptive sexual experience, right? Oh, that made me feel good. I didn’t really like that, but it made me feel something and that was kind of exciting or interesting or powerful in some way.
And, and what if I go back there that can really, that, that can change my physiological state, obviously they’re kids and not thinking about it in those terms, but sure. They’ll go back. And they’ll go back again and they’ll go back a couple more times and then as they continue to age, it’ll be more and more and more and more, and it’ll continue to escalate until it’s compulsion or addiction.
Carrie: So, I mean, I think that’s great. I haven’t heard that the hot box cold box explanation, but I really like that. I, I think it does happen. In one of those two extremes in terms of attachment trauma, from what I’ve seen. And, and we have a previous episode of people wanna go back and with Laura Mullis, where we talk about specifically about childhood wounding, and is that the key to unlocking your anxiety, I think is what that show is called, but it’s very interesting, the connections between that, that you’ve made for us and sex addiction because I think a lot of times people look at addiction and their focus of treatment really is on abstinence. Like we need to just get you away from whatever it is. Yeah. And then you’ll be okay, as long as you’re not doing that, as long as that’s not available to you, as long as you’re not engaging with it, just kind of white knuckle get through it. And that’s not really ever dealing with the root cause of the issue.
Matt: Right. And the absence of a compulsive behavior does not make health right. If I’m dealing with an underlying traumatic issue where my nervous system has not formed or developed in a way that is. Healthy or, or lends itself to health, then, then not doing the compulsive behavior is not gonna bring me closer to health.
It’s gonna put more stress on the system. It’s gonna push me into other methods of coping. And that’s where we see guys that white knuckle, like you’re describing it where they’re just. Dry drunk and they’re doing everything to just not do the behavior, but what, like I said, what comes out? Sideways rage, emotional abuse, psychological abuse of their partner.
They’re manipulative, they’re controlling, they’re angry. They’re overwhelmed with all of these other things. And maybe they’re. There’s even, um, comorbidity with alcohol or, or something else to try to help them cope with it. So the, the elimination of the unwanted behavior is never the answer.
Carrie: Yeah. Talk with us about the shame piece, cuz I can imagine that you have Christian men that come there and say, “you know, I spiritually, I am free in Christ and I am a new creation and I’ve been made new and they’ve, I’m sure prayed about this struggle, maybe memorized Bible verses.” And they still feel stuck like in this cycle. And then they’re ashamed because they’re like, I can’t seem to get, get out of it. How do you guys address this?
Matt: On the one hand, Christian men struggle immensely with shame around unwanted sexual behaviors. And on the other hand, it’s not that dissimilar to, to other guys, but the things that are unique to the Christian experiences. I’m not just damaging myself and my own relationships.
I feel a brokenness and a separation in my relationship with God, which is a huge piece or the number one piece of my identity. There’s this spiritual stressor on top of the relational stressor on top of everything else, Christian men are carrying that around as a disruption within their own identity as, uh, men created by God.
For his perfect and for his glory, right? It’s an extra weight on their shoulders. Then, the odd thing is, and I guess it’s not too surprising that theologically, they won’t argue with you that you know, that I’m loved by God and that God forgives me and that God died for me. And that I am a new creation and all the things that you said, Carrie, but functionally, they don’t really act.
They don’t really believe it. So they have theological beliefs on one hand and functional beliefs on the other. So they will look around in the group of, of men that are doing group therapy together. And this, you know, God loves all of you guys. And the subtext there is God loves everybody, except for me, S is by faith for everyone, but me, but I have to prove it.
I have to earn it or the idea. That is sneaky because it’s so close to the truth that sin separates me from God. And that I have a disrupted relationship with God because of this addiction. Paul says in Romans there’s nothing height or depth or life or death or angels or demons that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
So in a way, sin separates us from God, but Jesus has bridged that. Gap. And then we accept him in relationship and, as our savior and as the justifier and the one who’s made us right before God, then there isn’t anything separating us. And even addiction cannot separate us from God, even an addiction that feels, uh, shameful and dark and isolating.
So part of the treatment for Christian men is bringing into question some of their theological beliefs. And do you actually really believe. And do you function as if you do, and what would it be like if you actually functioned as if these theological beliefs were true? And what we find with Christian men is that trauma is the culprit yet again because trauma causes me to treat God and, and to project onto God, the caregiver relationships that I was wounded by.
So. As fast. Absolutely. Like if you talk to somebody who was abused by a parent and you get down to the nitty-gritty, their functional belief is that God is out to get them, that they are bad and that God wants to punish them or hurt them or withhold good things from them because they’re bad. And they deserve to be punished, which is hot box.
And if they grew up in an emotionally dismissive environment, emotionally, they. They tend to believe that God has his back to them and that they have to perform to get him to demonstrate love and care and warmth and affection for them. And they have to do the right rain dance to get God to respond.
And in both of these scenarios, religion, And superstition weasel their way in where Christian guys would be like, Hey man, I’m doing all the right things. I’m putting all the quarters in the pot machine and on, God’s not doing what I want him to do. I prayed for 10 years to, for him to take away this addiction.
And he’s not, or I’m a missionary or I’m a passion. I devoted my life to this and God is letting me down as if this rain dance and performance is gonna manipulate God into treating me the way that I wanted to. So now issues of resentment have popped up in their relationship with God. So it’s layered and nuanced, but one of the joys of working with Christian men is helping them come into a deeper understanding of the ways in which trauma has polluted, even their relationship with God, and seeing the rule on and, and see renewal around that super.
Carrie: Some of the greatest distances between our head and our heart. You probably have heard someone say that before, so we can know the right things theologically, and yet they haven’t really sunk down into our heart in an emotional level of yes. Like I am a child of God, like really able to sit with that and rest in it versus like, oh yeah, I know I’m God’s child like, well, yeah, I know. Yeah. You know, nothing can separate me from his love. it’s a different level there.
Matt: So, yeah. And that’s a, like, again, a function of the attachment that they experienced. Right. They were told that they were loved or they assumed that they were loved. So like an abusive parent, you know, I’m sorry, I did that.
I’m sorry. I blew up. I’m sorry that blah, blah. You know, I love you, right? No, I love you, right. Oh. And then what’s the kids’ response every time. I used to work with children and, and, and they’ll agree. And they’ll be like, yeah, I, yeah, I know, you know, little littles, little kids assume that their parents love them and that they are gonna respond to them.
The next time, even if all of the evidence tells them that they won’t. So it’s this cognitive understanding of what love is with a lack of experiencing that love. And it’s the same way for the cold box kids. So they talk to guys all the time and they’re like, oh yeah, I have great childhood. Dad came into all my baseball games.
We went on vacation or whatever, but when you get down to. Nitty gritty. Like there was no eye contact. There was no physical affection, no one ever talked about emotions. Everything was, you know, tamped down. And again, they’re being told that they’re loved, but they’re not experiencing that. So why would it be any different than their relationship with God?
My obligation then as a Christian is to assume that God loves me, even when I don’t or have never really experienced that love, cuz I probably wouldn’t know it even if it fit me on.
Carrie: Tell me about the recovery program that you’re involved with and what that looks like.
Matt: Boulder Recovery and our kind of sister program, the secular program begin again, Institute.
Those are 14-day intensive programs where we bring guys from all over the country to stay with us for two weeks. And they all come in together and they all leave together. So it’s kind of cohort model. We do intensive trauma therapy every day of that program. And we also do psychoed around trauma and addiction and attachment wounding and expose them to different trauma modalities so that they can get to the root of their traumatic experiences.
Feel through those experiences, learn how those have developed and perpetuated their a. Then we teach ’em about neurochemistry and dopamine, the, you know, addiction cycles and things like that. And so we, so we’re teaching ’em about trauma and how to feel their feelings. We teach them about the neurochemistry and the brain, and we teach them how their addiction is damaged, their relationships, and how that has developed and how that has happened.
And then we equip them to, uh, begin a strong recovery. So those are kind of the four major beats of the program over those two weeks. And that whole time we’re doing individual trauma sessions and group, uh, trauma work. It’s really helpful for guys. It’s a strong running start into lifelong recovery.
Carrie: Have you, do you have some data surrounding people that you followed up with say at 30 days or 90 days after your program or six months?
How, what has that looked like for you guys as far as success rates?
Matt: We have about like a 94, 90 5% satisfaction rating. It’s really high. You know, I don’t like to talk about that stuff because people that are those are guys that are just leaving the program. They really enjoyed it. And they, they really felt like they made a lot of growth, but they haven’t quite gone back to the real world yet.
And then the guys that we do hear from positively like that’s kind of a select sample size, isn’t it? Where they’re just. That you hear about, right? Yeah. But we do get a lot of positive feedback. We see a lot of success and we have a network of therapists all over the country that we refer to get referrals from.
They keep coming in and, and we hear from our refers all the time that, uh, guys are making breakthroughs and, and are changing their lives when they get back.
Carrie: That’s awesome. So do you see it as like a way for them to really kickstart their recovery process. And then of course, they’re gonna need follow-up like therapy to continue working through some of the hose things.
Matt: You’re not gonna be able to cure. You know, compulsive behavior and addiction in two weeks, but what you can do sure is crack some things open, look at things from a new perspective, do some deep dives because you can’t really do that in weekly therapy. You do, you, you make a, you make some big gains in, in a trauma session, but then you, you know, put your seatbelt back on and you go back to work or.
Go home. And then it’s the kids and job and stress, and it’s hard to get traction sometimes in those deeper issues. And what we can do is keep guys in the work for eight hours, 14 days in a row. And, um, you can see a lot of progress in a lot of change, um, through that kind of method. And so it’s a great avenue for people that are entering into recovery.
It’s a good thing for guys who have been sober for a while and kind of need a tune-up. And it’s a great opportunity for guys who have been sober for a long time, but are still struggling with residual effects of trauma. So we see all three types of guys. What I really enjoy is working with guys that are motivated and, uh, motivated to change, motivated to grow.
And that’s not all of our clients, by the way, like sometimes guys are like, decide they want to come see us register with us. And then somewhere in flight, I assume they decide that they’re not an addict anymore and they show up and they’re like, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if this is for me, you know, but at that point we kind of, we kind of got ’em, we got their keys and their phone and everything and, and the rest of the group can say, Hey man, I think this is a serious issue for you too.
So there’s some, sometimes we get some guys that are stuck in denial and, but we can work. We can work through that.
Carrie: So as we’re getting towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person
Matt: Yeah, I was thinking about this before, cuz I knew you were gonna ask me that and I just get so much of that in my life. I’m blessed to have that, you know, guys will email me all the time. I have this one guy who just emails me a picture of his chip. Every couple months. So like, he’ll take a picture of an essay. They have these little coins. And he’ll just take a picture. He just send me his one-year coin and no, no text, nothing.
Yeah. It’s like no subject line. It was just like a picture of his, his coin. It’s always fun to get those, but I did get an email last week from a guy who just wanted to be an encouragement and just, Hey, I just wanna remind you that you guys changed my life. He was telling me how he is moved back in with his wife and, um, his kids.
And he’s been sober for nine months. He’s just really killing it. So it’s always encouraging to get those kind of emails and to speak with guys that are finding traction and how. Not just because they’re no longer like in the deep hole of addiction, but because they’re becoming authentic and whole people and the kind of people that you really wanna spend time with, not just people that aren’t doing a thing
Carrie: Yeah. It’s like there was something to replace the addiction with. Like, you can’t just get rid of it. You have to replace, put something back in there, like the health and the wholeness and the peace.
Matt: Yeah. And we just, we say authenticity because, you know, back when those wounds happened, when they were kids, that’s what they lost. They lost the ability to be authentic and they had to perform or hide or cope, but whatever they were doing, they weren’t being themselves. And that, that real and valuable person that was created by God and his image deserves to be returned to and explored and not hidden under this blanket of addiction. We talk about returning to authenticity. And that’s probably the highest compliment for American men is to be told that, you know, oh, that guy, that guy’s real, that guy, that guy’s a real guy. He’s real. Yeah. Awesome. That’s what we get to see. So very exciting.
Carrie: Well, I think that what you’re doing is great.
I hope you guys keep on doing it. And I know that you’re helping a lot of people and hopefully, this podcast will, you know, open people up to this as a hopeful opportunity for maybe someone. Maybe themselves personally, or someone in their life who may be struggling. Thank you so much for coming and sharing today.
Matt: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Carrie. You know, I appreciate what you’re doing too, bringing hope to people that are suffering from compulsivity and anxiety. And yeah, there’s a lot of that in the world right now. So thank you too.
Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of, By The Well Counseling in Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you
Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 50. I promised to bring back my favorite guest, my husband, Steve so we can talk about our relationship ups and downs and life that happened in our first year of marriage.
Carrie: Welcome back, Steve.
Steve: Thanks for having me.
Carrie: You are my biggest fan and support, so I really appreciate you being here. We wanted to start off with a couple of fun questions. First, we got married and then we moved in together and we were adjusting to living life in the same household. What was the biggest surprise for you?
Steve: Well, I initially thought that it would be the dishes because you put your dishes in a different place than I’m used to. The biggest adjustment was you are a sheet stealer, a blanket taker, so we can be in the same bed trying to sleep and somehow I find myself or was finding myself thinking, oh, my toes are cold. What happened to the nice sheet that I had on me? And so we had to resolve that we have separate sheets now, which seems weird to say, but otherwise, you just roll and roll and roll and roll and suddenly you’re all nice and toasty.
Carrie: Yeah. Somehow I’m like a burrito on the covers.
Steve: A human burrito.
Carrie: I am definitely a cover hog. I will admit that. So I would say for me, the biggest surprise was related to combining households in that Steve actually has more shoes than I do. I know that women are usually the ones that are super fashionistas and do have a lot of shoes and different sites, styles, and colors. But Steve likes to have a variety of shoes and a variety of clothes and so he’s looking around the closet while we’re reading. So that was a big surprise for me and what’s bad about that is that I got rid of shoes.
Steve: I still have more than you, even though I got rid of shoes, but I want new shoes and I’m not a materialistic person. Probably my only thing is wanting more shoes.
Carrie: Yeah. You’re not, not big into stuff. Overall. What would you say was the biggest adjustment that you feel like you had to make when we got married?
Steve: Well, there are these two fur balls that like space, like the couch and the bed and the couch I could get over, but the bed, yeah, that was difficult. They don’t know that they wanted to give up that spot next to you. Right? So that probably honestly, that was an adjustment for me. I’m used to sleeping just me and not having to worry about something jumping on me in the middle of the night, and the sound of meow outside the door or whatever the case is, but just having my place on the bed, fighting for that place with it.
Carrie: But you made friends with Lilo and Stitch because you started feeding them shortly after you moved in, Which was interesting. I was like, oh, okay, he’s taken over this responsibility. And so now when it’s dinner time, they don’t look at me. They look at you, they know who brings the food.
Steve: That’s right and I like routine. So it just made sense in the morning I get up, I get them. At night before bed, I get them food. It was an easy transition and they’re good. They’re, for the most part, they are well-behaved. They have their moment.
Carrie: That’s true and one of the things that we did after we moved in together was we redecorated because I had been living in the house here with my roommate and just overall, the house needed a fresh coat of paint and the furniture was thrift store stuff. It was pretty run down or old and just needed to freshen things up. So we were able to, that was one thing that we did this year was, did some redecorating. This is funny in regards to the cats because now we have these accent chairs in the living room and it’s like Stitch has his chair that he likes to sit in and Lilo has her chair that she likes to sit in.
They don’t ever trade places, which is kind of funny to me. It’s like if we go out there in the living room, it’s like, sit, you’ll be in one chair and Lilo will be in the other chair. And I’m like, you guys are hilarious. So they’ve come to sleeping in the chairs now instead of trying to get in the bed with us because that way our foot doesn’t roll over on them or kick them or anything like that on intention.
We had a very unexpected year. Health-wise. Kind of wanted to share a little bit about that on the podcast. I got your full permission to talk about these things. And I said, you don’t have to talk about anything you don’t want to talk about, but I think everything that we’ve been through together and that you’ve been through has been really inspiring and has taught me a lot. I want to just talk about that.
Steve: Absolutely.
Carrie: But it actually started out with a Kerry health challenge in the spring. I went to a very routine exam with an OB-GYN because we were talking about getting pregnant and then she said, hey, there’s this. You need to go get a mammogram and an ultrasound on that. And I thought, oh gosh, that sounds pretty serious and pretty scary. This is the timing of everything we were about to lose our insurance for about a month. So I had to kind of hurry and get this ultrasound before we lost the insurance. And I thought I don’t know if they’re going to want to do follow-up testing or biopsy something.
I don’t know that we’re going to be able to do that. How is it all going to work out? What was that like for you while we were kind of waiting for me to get the testing and then the day of the kind of waiting for me to contact you back?
Steve: That was scary because you’re not yet not knowing and your mind can play so many tricks on. Also just hearing that, we’re wanting children, we’re just dealing with life, we’re newly married. We’re all those things. I just got a new job. The insurance just changed over. It was about two and it hadn’t even changed yet. Like you said, and now I have this thought of, oh my gosh. Forget all that. What about your health? Who wants to hear that? Sure. I don’t want you to have to go. So yeah, I was a little bit scared.
Carrie: We both certainly have known people who have been younger and people who have gone through breast cancer. So it was like, oh gosh, you know, that couldn’t be me. I don’t know. I have to get this checked out. We got to check it out. It turned out to be nothing. It was fine, but a clear bill of health there moved forward. And then shortly after you started your job, you went for what was supposed to be a relatively routine eye exam and you had been telling me, my eyes hurt, my eyes hurt. And I said that’s just not normal. You need to bring that up when you go in for your eye appointment, you want to kind of tell a little bit more about that story.
Steve: Sure and I knew that for a long time, I had sensitive eyes. So I didn’t think as much of it, but yes, I had been having a lot of eye pain. I just kept telling you that I had these eye headaches and so I go in for the routine checkup and they noticed a few things immediately. One that I had been dragging my hand across the wall while I was walking and I didn’t even realize really that I was doing that. It was such a habit, such a normal thing.
And also the bottom line, my vision was less than wonderful. We’ll just say it that way and so what seemed to be just a regular eye checkup? Nothing new, Hey, you’ve lost a lot of vision in your right eye, there’s a loss of blood flow, there’s this, there’s that we have so many things to check and you may have had an eye stroke. We went through a lot of scenarios.
Carrie: Yeah. In the beginning, we were told it could be all kinds of things. We were originally told that your blood vessels were constricted in your eyes. We were told you could have had an eye stroke, which caused the vision loss. This seems strange because it wasn’t like you woke up one day and couldn’t see as well from your perspective. Now, we knew that you had other eye issues. You’ve had some issues with peripheral and colorblindness, but we didn’t know that that this was going on pretty much. They were like, whoa, you know, you could have a brain tumor, it could be causing this. You could have a clogged artery that could be causing this and we’re just starting to think here. Oh no, like what’s going on.
There was another kind of fluke test that came back and we thought maybe there was something wrong with your kidney. So there for a short light, like two weeks to about a month period, we were gone, oh my gosh, are you going to die? Are you going to be okay? Like some of this stuff sounds pretty life-threatening and we have to get a handle on it and figure it out.
Steve: And every time they would say something, it could be this, it could be that your heart starts racing a little bit. Part of me just wanted to know what, if you get to a point where you like, just tell me, just let’s figure this out and jump ahead, we still don’t really know fully, but, it’s always scary. Just not knowing is the worst part and I’ve heard people say about different things and that is so true. But we’ve got a great group of people around us, through friends, family, of course, church people who call us and tell us, or text us and tell us, Hey, we’re praying for you daily. Someone told me their child was praying for me, which was really sweet, just the different things. My good friend with cancer is praying. So it’s just helpful to hear those.
Carrie: It’s definitely an encouragement when you’re going through something to have other people that care about you that are like lifting you up to God. So to make the long story short, you got a bunch of testing done. You had MRIs, ultrasound of your neck, you had follow-ups with doctors, you had visual testing. And then you got to this point where it was like you were going to have to see a specialist and a neurological ophthalmologist and got an appointment at Vanderbilt, but then we had to wait 10 weeks for the appointment.
Steve: Yes.
Carrie: It was a long wait.
Steve: It was.
Carrie: Yeah, there were a lot of times where you were having pain and it was so hard for me because I couldn’t really do anything about it. Like I make it better or take that away from you. And based on some of the other things that we had been told, I was so scared that you were going to lose more vision. I know there were times when we were going through that where I just get up in the middle of the night and I’d read verses about trusting God and I just cry to say, God, you got to help him get us to the right doctors and get us where we need to go, because it’s just so sad and so painful.
Steve: And I think, honestly, that’s the hardest part is knowing that I said it was the not knowing, but seeing your spouse have to deal with it is worse because that’s not fair. No, that’s not fair to them. I have to wake up in the middle of the night. Well, it’s not fair to you. Let me say this correctly. Not fair to you to have to wake up in the middle of the night, worrying about me. I know that’s part of, we said for better or for worse, we did that in our vows. Right. But I get it. It’s still, I kind of get to the point where I’m like, man, whatever, but it’s not fair for you. That’s the hardest part.
Carrie: You’re also that kind of personality where you don’t want anybody blessing over you or worrying about you or you don’t want to be bothering anybody or affecting them in that way. So this week was the week that we went to the neurological ophthalmologist. It was like nothing I’ve ever experienced and I’m sure nothing like you’ve ever experienced.
Steve: No, I wouldn’t recommend that for the family funding.
Carrie: Yeah. You’re keeping your sense of humor about you. It’s in essence that they had this long hallway with multiple waiting rooms. You meet with a resident first, and then they send you off to one of the waiting rooms or, and somebody will pull you for a test. And then you’ll go to a different waiting room and be pulled for another test. You go back and you meet with the resident and the doctor. And then it was like, well, we need to do this other test. So we were literally up at Vanderbilt for four to five hours.
Steve: Yes and I will say this, Vanderbilt did a great job. They really did. Everyone there was so nice that I could, we could probably spend a whole episode just talking about all that they did and I’ll spare you. But it was probably the most difficult thing of it all was just one, I was hungry, even though we brought snack bars, you can’t prepare yourself for that kind of stress in that many hours of it. And having an ultrasound on your eye, both eyes. That’s interesting. So that was stressful, but yeah, I didn’t even know that was possible. That was a thing fairly new and it’s strange, all that goo in your eye is just, I’ll leave it at that because somebody is squirming right now.
Carrie: Yeah. We get to the end of the appointment and he says probably, I think one of the worst things that he could say here we are bracing ourselves for, oh, gosh, you’ve got a degenerative eye condition, you’re going blind, you’ve got glaucoma, you’ve got this serious eye issue and we’re kind of bracing ourselves for something like that like you need surgery. He literally says I have no explanation for this pain that you’re experiencing and I have a couple of other hypotheses, but you’re going to have to go elsewhere to get that treatment.
You’re going to have to go to a different specialist because it’s not actually eye-related and that was rough.
Steve: That was rough. You know, there was a moment we thought it could have been glaucoma and that was difficult to hear. But at least, in this case, you kind of want to label, or at least I did because then you can prepare for it. But not knowing is again, that’s difficult. Not why, why is this happening? Why do I not have a vision in my right eye or peripheral vision or the pain or whatever. And hearing also him say, well, it’s just weird. Your eyes are weird. That just seems like a strange word to use for that. I’m glad that I get to be a weird anomaly as he put it. That’s not what I wanted to hear. Right?
Carrie: It’s hard for doctors when they’re looking at your symptoms and they don’t have a neat clean category to put you into. It’s like, okay, well, this kind of this piece looks like glaucoma, but this other piece over here does not look like it at all. And this piece right here, it looks like this, but this other piece, it doesn’t quite, it’s something that doesn’t quite fit with the diagnoses.
And so we’re trying a couple of different avenues. One, they gave you a different eyeglasses prescription that we’re hoping will help a little bit because maybe your eyes were strained somewhat from having an incorrect prescription from a previous provider. You’re going to be looking at some physical therapy on your neck, head to address may be a nerve that runs behind the eyes that could be upset or inflamed.
So those are kind of our next steps and we essentially got told, hey, come back and for months and we’ll see you and see if anything’s changed. Now, we’re back in January.
Steve: Which is difficult now and it’s so many people praying and they want an answer. And the best I can say is I’ll be back in four months and we have some other options. It is what it is.
Carrie: I know that I’ve had a lot of spiritual wrestling, I think, through this process. And I talked about that a little bit earlier because you can have faith and you can pray. And certainly, people have prayed over your eyes that your vision would be restored and you wouldn’t have any more pain and sometimes it’s really hard to sit with that. God has not fully answered that prayer yet. God has not healed you yet. What is your process been like around it?
Steve: I’ve said for me total healing, of course, that would be great. If there’s not total healing, let me just be who I’m supposed to be as a Christian, with it. I don’t want to be angry or bitter over something that nature. And it’s funny because this morning, but yesterday I’ll be honest. I was so angry. I really was because I wanted an answer. I wanted them to find something to say that, yes, you’ve lost vision in your right eye.
Carrie: And here’s why.
Steve: Yeah and here’s why would have been great. Here’s why you had the pressure, but to sit down and ask me three or four times about the pressure with no answer is just gosh, this isn’t helping me at all, and no offense to the doctor because they’re just doing their job.
Carrie: Right.
Steve: But it’s just hard to hear that. So then this morning I wake up and I do a group devotion that we’ve been doing, and it talks about just relying on God’s grace and relying. Sometimes God is there with you. I forgot how I worded it and how you feel it most, in your worst times, or in your times of struggle or pain or whatever.
And I thought, well, gosh, that’s kind of now. I have to look at it and say, okay, you got this, I can’t, this is out of my control and I just have to deal with it. It’s what it is. It’s not a lack of bubble leading or that. He could heal me anytime He wants, and yet I have this and so that’s the lot that I have let’s roll with it. Let’s do with what we have. I cannot be a Christian because my eyes are hurting. That’s not an option.
Carrie: Right. And you’re still serving in the church like that. You can be involved there. That’s another story, but we actually became the outreach directors, as I guess in December of last year, so has been great.
Steve: We get to meet so many neat and wonderful people. So that’s been a neat kind of takes my mind off things sometimes, it’s something else to focus on. So that’s good too.
Carrie: I think it’s hard when we’re waiting on God for an answer or to move or for guidance. But I know that these really hard times also grow our character more than anything else and I’ve learned so much from just watching you and how you’ve handled your vision issues, the pain that you’ve experienced. And it’s really taught me a lot about humility. There are times where you have had to acknowledge other people. These are my limitations. These are some things that I’m not able to do, or I can’t see right now.
And that’s, that’s hard to say because you’re around a bunch of other people that can see. Okay, and maybe it’s too dark in the room or it’s too bright. And you’re having to say, yeah, I just, I can’t see that right now.
Steve: I don’t know if it’s a pride thing, a guy thing. I don’t know what it is, but I always want to be able to do what everybody else is doing. You don’t want to say, that’s difficult, or when there’s a group of people, like the guys that say, hey, we all want to go here tonight. Oh, I can’t go because I don’t drive at night. So Carrie’s already somewhere else. I’m just going to hang out here at the house because that’s my safe space.
I don’t want to put anybody out and I don’t want to drive. So yeah, there are so many instances that I could give where it’s difficult in that sense. But it is what it is and it’s cool in a way though, because I am able to relate with a group of people that maybe others can’t.
So if there’s an older person who doesn’t see very well, I totally get that. Not because I’m old, although I’m getting older by the day here, because I get, I know what it’s like to have cataracts. I knew what it’s like to not be able to see. It’s difficult to give up the privileges of driving at night, even that was such a task. That’s very difficult.
Carrie: It’s really been a big one. There will be times where we’ll be out and you can’t see because it’s too bright, too dark, some of your eyes are really bothering you that day. Something’s going on. Sometimes you have double vision and things are kind of blurry and you’ll just like reach out and grab onto my shoulder or onto my purse or something like that and just hold onto me. I think that that’s, that’s a picture of our Christian life. Like it’s dark like right now, things are somewhat dark and we can’t see and we have to hold on to Jesus.
It’s not easy because, at that moment, you’re totally trusting me to take you where you need to go. I remember there was a time where we were at some fireworks for the 4th of July and we were trying to walk through this area. You said, I just can’t, I can’t anything about where we’re going right now, just make sure I don’t step at all or something. Sometimes the other thing you’ll do is you’ll watch my feet and where my feet are going, and that helps guide you in and we have this pattern of Jesus.
Jesus has already walked on the earth. Like He’s already done all the things. It’s like if we will pattern our lives, like after Jesus, it’s hard. If this not, I think for me, I’m a doer, I’m a get it done. I’m an advocate. So not having the control and really having to let go and say, okay, God, this is your department. You’re going to take care of this. I want to fix it for Steve, but I can’t and You love Steve more than I do. So I have to trust that You’re going to do it. I’m sure You’re going to, however, this is going to happen. Obviously, we pray that God’s glorified through this experience and we pray that whatever happens that we trust and know that He’s going to use it for good somehow in your life, in my life, and in the lives of other people.
Steve: It’s been, I don’t know how to say it, but as, as we have grown as a couple, it’s been such a blessing to see. I can brag on you for just a moment, you have man, you’ve scheduled my appointments for me. You advocate for me at a time when I don’t know what to ask. I don’t even get to a point where you just don’t even care anymore.
You do, but that’s how it feels sometimes. I’ve even had where my parents have said, oh my goodness Carrie, thank you, and it’s true. I feel the same way that they do. It’s such a blessing to have you there to help me there. Even just like the other night, we went out with church and, they decided to go to the family fund center or whatever that was. It was a good time but I couldn’t bowl. We tried to play some video games and that was, I guess, that was good, but you had to kind of walk me around in some cases and I didn’t get to a bowl, but I enjoyed watching you bowl and kind of forgive me, but kick butt and take names because you’re a pretty good bowler.
I feel like you hustled a little bit, but it was good. It was good to watch. Anyway, we have really learned some couples walk side by side and we walk me behind you and it’s just the way it is. That’s how much trust I have in you and faith and it’s worked out really well. Thank you.
Carrie: Yeah, it’s for me, I think it’s just really been a joy to have you in my life and it does. I know a lot of people probably would look at it as a sacrifice. I don’t, like, I just don’t feel that way because I feel like you’ve done so much for me as well. I know that if the shoe was on the other foot if something had come back and that screen and I was going through cancer.
You would be doing all those things too, you would be gone to the doctor’s appointments with me. You would be taking notes and asking questions, or I know that if things were reversed that you would be helping me out as well. It’s what you do as a married couple and some of you may have heard this or listened that marriage is not 50-50, because it just can’t be. Sometimes it really has to be like a hundred percent and a hundred percent, but there are times where your spouse may only have 25% to give because they’re sick, they’re hurting, they’re going through something. You have to help lift them up and provide that. You may have to provide that extra 75 that you need to stay strong as a couple.
It’s just part of the deal so we’re going to switch on a happier note and say that I was tracking my calendar and trying to figure out when I was ovulating, trying to get all the stars aligned because that’s what has control for people do. Right? Then I had bought some ovulation test strips, so forth, and then this stuff started happening with your eyes. I put the ovulation strips under the sink and I said, I can’t do this right now. That was the month that we got pregnant.
Steve: That’s right. The moment you stop worrying about it and trying to control it as when God’s like, and now go.
Carrie: Yeah. So at this recording were 13 weeks along and so when this comes out, we’ll be a little bit farther than that, but we’re super excited there. You just feel so blessed. Like this is our shining light in the midst of hard times is that God has blessed us with a child where we’re entering the old parents club.
So we didn’t know if this was going to happen or be possible in, I think just knowing everything that I’ve been through in regards to losing my foster children and everything that you went through in a long period of singleness. Just coming to this point, we were able to say like, okay, this is really a gift. Like God is showing us a gift and everything I’ve been learning and reading about trust, I think has helped me in terms of the pregnancy. Just say, okay, if God has given us this gift, then I’m not going to worry about the baby or what’s happening because there obviously there are so many worries that you can have in pregnancy and wondering is everything gonna be okay and all of that. I’ve kind of slowed all of that down and being able to say like, okay, this is from God. We’re going to be okay.
Steve: Yeah and it’s been kind of fun, kind of interesting. I’ve learned so much. One day I’ll come home and the baby’s the size of a raisin. Oh, isn’t that nice? It’s such a big, big baby and then the next thing you know it’s the size of a kumquat. Oh, what the heck is a kumquat? Wait a minute. I have to figure this out. How big is that? Then the next thing I know, hey, we’re the size of a lemon and by the way today, the baby has fingerprints and my fingerprints that’s amazing.
So it’s been fun and she tracks it, the things I learn and this is our baby, and dear God, I hope this baby doesn’t look like me. I hope this baby looks like Carrie.
Carrie: But they are gonna at least start out looking like you because they’re not going to have a lot of hair.
Steve: They’re going to have more of the hair than me. I bet you. Anyway, s so many people ask me and us, do you want a boy or a girl. Maybe it’s because I’m older, I don’t know, but I’m like my answer every single time, I just want a baby.
Carrie: Right?
Steve: I want a child. That’s what I want. Boy, girl, whatever. I just want a child and I’m excited about that.
Carrie: Yeah. We’re just, we’re like, we’ll be happy with either one.
Steve: And I think the joy of seeing our parents’ faces. I know that my mom was so excited, so I’m sure mom will be listening to this and amen on that one. She was very excited to hear as was your mom and, and both of our dads. So it’s neat and they are excited.
Carrie: Yeah. We had some fun with our families, for sure. We got them little onesies with their grandparent names. Obviously, because we’re having children later, we’ve had siblings that have had children. It’s not the first grandchild by any means, but still, they’re very excited for us because they know everything that we’ve been through and they knew that we were wanting to have a child.
So here we are big steps and I guess I just want to say in relation to that, I don’t know what things are going to look like for the podcast in the future. I’ve struggled because my first trimester has been pretty rough. There’s a lot of sicknesses and a lot of tiredness. I think I’m coming out of it at this point, which feels really, really good.
I’m feeling a lot more energy and less nausea. I know that there’s gonna have to be sometime off and focus on family and different things. So we’re going to do the best that we can and obviously kind of evaluate over the next year, what the podcast is going to look like, but also, what the continuation of it is going to be in January.
I’m planning to release episodes every other week, instead of every week. You have episodes to catch up on that will give you time to go back and listen to some of our older episodes. But I’m always looking for ways to expand and let other people know about the podcast. I’ve been a guest on different podcasts that can get the word out. We’re at a place where I really want to continue. I’m enjoying it. I love the interviews that I’ve been able to do. But obviously, there are definitely question marks about what is that going to look like with a baby and childcare and so forth and so on and time timing-wise to do things.
We may just have to get better about working ahead and figuring out what that looks like. I also want to make sure that being wise financially and invest resources the way that God would want me to. My goal for this next year is to have the podcast be fully fund itself. We don’t have, as we don’t have sponsors, but when we do have is a buy me a coffee opportunity where you can give money to the podcast.
I am hoping very soon. I keep dragging my feet on it, but maybe by the time this episode comes out, I really want to create a subscription service where people feel like they’re getting value every month. They’re not just donating money but they’re actually getting some relaxation audios. They’re getting question and answer time with me once a month. They’re getting maybe some workbook pages that I really want to be of value to people. Hopefully, we will be able to get enough subscribers that the podcast will be funding itself in a year. That’s the goal. What I’m shooting for God is good and He’s definitely provided the opportunity for us to be able to do this so far.
So I’m trusting Him with whatever the feature is. If I need to put it down for a season and pick it up again, or if I need to let it go, I just have to be open to whatever God wants me to do. I guess I just want to end on hope obviously because that’s how we like to nourish. I feel like the hope for me is obviously that we’re having a child. The hope is that you’re going to be able to see them and see them grow up. I’m hopeful that God is going to just protect you and protect your vision so that you won’t lose further vision and that God will relieve you of this pain. We haven’t seen it yet, but we will definitely keep you guys.
Steve: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s I hope that you can do this for a long time because I know that you enjoy what you do and I’m biased, but I think you’re fantastic at it, but yeah, I’m excited. I’m excited. That’s been such a blessing or from the day we got married, even before that. But from the day we got married till now, and I’m excited for what the future brings and what great things you get to do with this platform as well.
Carrie: Yeah. Thank you for sharing your story. I think it can mean being so open and vulnerable. I think it helps people because there are people going through their anxiety right now, or their OCD. They’re wondering some of the same questions like we have, like, why isn’t God healing me or why do I go to these doctors?
And I can’t get help or maybe they tried medication and it’s not working. I think it’s whenever you have a chronic condition, like anxiety or OCD, it’s a process really to get that help. I’m reading a book right now, which I really love and I won’t spoil it because I want to have the author on, but he talks about how we, our coworkers with Christ in our healing process in the journey. He’s talking specifically about anxiety, how God does His part and we do our part in that, which gives me hope that God knows obviously our limitations. God knows that we can only do so much on our part and we need that. We need Him, we need to rely on Him and we need that divine intervention.
As always, I hope this podcast really just encourages somebody today, to keep going. And if nothing else to know, like you’re not alone in your struggles. So there’s always someone who cares about you. There is even if you don’t feel like it. Yeah. Maybe if you feel isolated.
Steve: If you’re, maybe you’re like me and you don’t want to bother anyone. This is my 2 cents for what it’s worth. I’m not Carrie, don’t get me wrong here, but you’re not a bother. Somebody loves you. Somebody wants to see you better. They love you. They don’t want your problem to hold you back. Be a bother, be a smile and get better.
Carrie: Well, thank you to everyone who tuned in today. If you’d like to reach out to us, you can find us at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.
Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling. Our original music is by Brandon. Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.
