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45. Improving Nutrition to Help Anxiety with Dr. Katie Thomson Aitken, ND

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 45. Improving Nutrition to Help Anxiety with Dr. Katie Thomson Aitken, ND

We are privileged to have our first ever Canadian guest on the podcast, Dr. Katie Thomson Aitken.  Dr. Katie is a licensed naturopathic doctor who enjoys helping people with all kinds of health goals achieve positive changes in their health and in their life.  She also has a passion for mental health, the management of stress and anxiety, and helping individuals connect with their higher purpose.

  • What are the benefits of seeing a naturopathic doctor?
  • Is naturopathy an alternative medicine?
  • Can naturopathy be used alongside other medical and therapeutic techniques? 
  • The 5 Pillars of Mental Wellness
  • The role of neurotransmitters in anxiety
  • Nutrition-related concerns of patients with anxiety and steps to take to help improve nutrition. 
  • Dr. Katie’s book: Create Calm.

Resources and Links

 Dr. Katie Thomson Aitken, ND
Book: Create Calm

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Transcript of Episode 45

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD Episode 45. If you’ve been following the show, we talk about all kinds of things related to not just the mental health aspects of anxiety but also our physical health. When our physical health is working good, it combines well and helps our mental health and both of those things need to be functioning properly in order for us to get to a better state of overall health.

Carrie: So today on the show we are talking with Dr. Katie Thompson Aiken, who is a naturopathic doctor. This is going to be an interesting episode for me as well since I don’t know that much about naturopathy and that pathway. I’m probably going to ask some questions that some of you might have as well, and we’ll both be learning along together. So thank you so much for being here. 

Dr. Katie: Thank you so much for having me. It’s always a pleasure to talk about anxiety and the mind-body connection.

Carrie: And a random fact, I think you are the first Canadian that I’ve had on the podcast. And I know that we have listeners from all over the world, so it’s good to have people outside of America on every once in a while. I think this adds to our diversity. 

Dr. Katie: That’s wonderful. It’s my absolute pleasure to be here. 

Carrie: Let’s talk a little bit about how seeing a naturopathic doctor benefits people in a little bit different way than seeing a doctor that follows traditional Western medicine. 

Dr. Katie: That’s a great question. I think we will start talking about naturopathic medicine. A lot of people think of it as an alternative medicine, but I like to use the word complimentary. So what I do works alongside some of the traditional care choices that someone might have when they’re looking for support with their health concerns, whether that’s anxiety or for something. In a traditional model.

If you’re experiencing anxiety, you might be offered medication. You might be offered therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, or group therapy and sometimes that’s it. But we know that there are a lot of things, lifestyle wise, that can be supportive of anxiety. There’s also a lot of conditions in the body: hormonal imbalances and nutritional deficiencies that can contribute to anxiety. When you see a naturopathic doctor, one of the big differences is that naturopathic medicine treats the whole person rather than looking at just one piece of someone’s health, say the anxiety.

When I see a patient and when my colleagues that are naturopathic doctors treat someone, we are asking questions about all systems of the body and what’s going on with your hormonal health. How is your digestion? Do you have cardiovascular risk factors like high blood pressure? And piecing those all together to come up with a comprehensive care plan. We’re also asking about lifestyle. How are you living? How are you eating and moving and sleeping? How is your connection with their friends and family? Because all of those pieces then support or can get in the way of optimal health and including optimal mental. 

Carrie: Dr. Akin. I think that you make a great point there that anxiety is a complex issue. It’s not just a physical health issue. It’s not just a mental health issue. It’s not just a social or spiritual health issue. This is an issue that affects many different domains of our lives and so it’s important that we’re able to look at all of those different domains and evaluate them. So I like that, that’s something that you bring to the table for people that you work with. 

Dr. Katie: Thank you. Yes. I think it’s very important that we acknowledge that no one we’re talking about any house condition. There are physical, mental, and spiritual causes and solutions for health concerns. And my approach is to look at each of those, look at the resources that people have available through that, and really work to find solutions that support people through their physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing. I know sometimes maybe a rut that certain doctors can fall into is having a one size fits all approach.

Carrie: And sometimes the one size fits you and sometimes it just doesn’t seem to fit. And so I imagine you probably have patients come to you who have been to other doctors before, or have tried other courses of medication maybe, and haven’t achieved the results that they were hoping for. 

Dr. Katie: Absolutely. I see a lot of patients that have resistance or like what’s considered treatment resistant depression or treatment resistant anxiety. We know that the standard medications for anxiety work for about 80% of people, which is great, but that leaves a whole 20% of people who do not respond to first-line medication. Some folks go through a lot of trial and error and they don’t find something that works for them and it’s the same with natural therapies. Right? 

We have things that work very well for a lot of people, but not everything works for everyone. I have patients that certainly have tried many things before coming to see me are quite frustrated and it’s always very rewarding. We can try new tools like lifestyle supplements, acupuncture, and be able to get a different result for those patients, as well as patients who are, for whatever reason, just not interested in pursuing other avenues of care.

Perhaps they had a family member that had a bad experience with medication and they’re a little more hesitant to try it. So being able to open up more options for whatever someone’s reason is for choosing naturopathic care. I will say I also have patients that do naturopathic care alongside conventional medicine. I have a lot of patients that take medications and we work on supporting their lifestyle so that their medication doses are effective so that they can stay at the lowest effective dose that they’re reclaiming their health and their life in terms of how they want to be living and their choices.

Carrie: That’s an awesome option to like, so it doesn’t have to be completely one or the other. You can really combine both together. I like that.

Dr. Katie: I think it’s really important to know that you have lots of choices and it doesn’t have to be one or the other, we can work together so that you feel supported in your mental wellness.

Carrie: Talk with us about what you consider to be the pillars of mental wellness. 

Dr. Katie: In my practice, I mentioned that we’re talking about how things come up looking for other screens, then also assessing lifestyle factors. I call those the pillars of performance. We go through five of those: nutrition, exercise, sleep, prayer or mindfulness and connection. Those are the pieces that we talk about in terms of what are your current habits right now. Then they’re also the pillars moving through my tranquil minds program, where we really work on building up healthy habits in each of those categories. 

Carrie: Okay. So we want to dive in and talk a little bit more about nutrition today. We do have some other guests that are going to be talking about sleep. We have had an episode on mindfulness, which was really great. I encourage people to go back and listen to that. We’ve had an early episode of prayer. Tell me about some nutrition concerns that you’ve seen in your patients with anxiety.

Dr. Katie: Often when I start working with patients who have anxiety, we end up in one of two situations, nutritionally. One is people who are eating very, what they would call clean. They’re very concerned about what they’re eating. They want to eat in a way that’s going to optimize their mental wellness and they actually are often overthinking.

Then on the other side, we have people who are overwhelmed in general, or maybe not educated around nutrition. People who have symptoms of anxiety that manifest through the digestive system. Maybe they have IBS nausea, low appetite associated with their anxiety. Often these folks are not eating regularly and don’t really know even where to start.

When it comes to managing their nutrition. We always start with understanding. Where someone’s starting from. If it’s safe for them to record their food for a week, we often will do that. We’ll do a diet recording. That’s not the right first step for everyone. Some people find that upsetting and we don’t want to trigger any disordered eating habits. So always be cautious around starting recording, but once we know what someone’s feeding, then I like to look at first of all, for regular. Is someone eating often enough and I think this gets overlooked a lot when it comes to mental wellness, we think of, are you eating the right things? Are you eating quote-unquote healthy foods? We miss the main piece, which is that if you’re not nourishing yourself, then your brain isn’t getting everything that it needs in order to feel well. So people that are on a weight loss protocol or a restricted diet, they may be experiencing anxiety simply because they’re under fueled, like their body doesn’t have what it needs to feel well, and I see that more often than I do.

Carrie: I think that that’s huge and I want to circle back around to a couple of things that you said. One was, the people that are very focused on eating clean or eating a certain way, but it’s to an extreme level. There is actually something called orthorexia where it’s kind of a subset of anorexia where people will only eat very specific, limited foods that they believe to be clean or healthy for them. 

Sometimes those people can actually be nutritionally deficient because they’re not getting enough, maybe fat, for example, or enough protein in their diet. I’m sure that that’s something that you’ve probably encountered at some point or another. 

Dr. Katie: Certainly yes. I think that’s something we have to be very careful of orthorexia . Definitely in the field of naturopathic medicine there is a lot of nutritional advice that gets presented through natural healthcare and nutritionists. I think it’s something to be mindful of that each person is different and the most important thing is being fueled first. So sometimes the work is actually including more food in the diet. In fact, that’s always where I start, regardless of someone’s level of nutrition, we always start with, what can we add before we ever look at what could we maybe reduce. 

Carrie: That’s a good point. So like, if people are saying, well, I don’t really eat enough vegetables instead of focusing on cutting something out first saying, okay, well, can you add one more vegetable maybe per day, then you’re already eating. That sounds better than, oh gosh, I’ve got to stop eating junk food. Right. 

Dr. Katie: A hundred percent and that’s actually stage two of my nutritional approach, which is adding in produce and protein when it comes to managing blood sugar and helping with anxiety. It’s making sure that you have all the pieces that your brain needs to make all the neurotransmitters that can encourage people to look at what they’re eating and say, do I have a piece of fruit or vegetable in this new snack? Does this meal or snack have any sources of protein in it? For a lot of my patients, that’s a good starting point of starting to add it in by saying, oh, typically my breakfast is a piece of toast. Okay, well maybe we can add a piece of fruit to that. Or maybe you can have a toast and a fruit smoothie. That’s got some protein powder in it. Maybe you want to start with adding a piece of bacon to that toast and getting some meat in the morning. We’re not demonizing food. We’re just looking for options to increase both the protein and the produce pieces in the nutrition.

Carrie: I liked that a lot. I think that that’s a great starting point for people to help improve their nutritional intake. One of the things that you talked about was people not eating enough or not eating on a regular basis, which can also happen with anxiety. And one thing I’ve found or noticed with some of my clients is they’re not tuned in really to their body because tuning into their body means I’m noticing the anxiety symptoms. Sometimes that means that they’re tuning out the hunger signals as well. Like I’m not really paying attention to that. I’ve got to work or I’ve got to stay focused on something else and just plow forward. And next thing you know, it’s two o’clock and they haven’t eaten all day. That means they haven’t had any fuel for that day. 

Dr. Katie: Absolutely. I see that as well. I also sometimes see a confusion of hunger cues and anxiety cues. Not feeling well in the stomach, having some nausea and going I must be anxious rather than reflecting and saying, well, when was the last time I ate?

I’ve worked with many people where we’ve been able to separate those cues out and try eating. I give my patients a guideline of four to six hours. So when you’re looking at your day, especially if you’re not used to eating regularly and say, are there times where I’m going more than six hours without eating and then, or more than four hours.

And when you have anxiety, feelings of anxiety, thoughts come up and it’s been that long since you ate, just questioning, am I really worried about this, or should I have a snack? And sometimes having something to eat really alleviates some of that anxiety feeling because your brain is more fueled, you’re in a calmer place. It also takes away some of those physical symptoms that are actually hunger. 

Carrie: I think that there have been times where I’ve felt nauseous or light-headed, and I knew I needed to eat something right now. Like it’s been a while or I’ve been busy or I’ve been out doing things and you can definitely have some symptoms from that. That totally makes complete sense to me. Sometimes you just need a snack. 

Dr. Katie: Sometimes you just need a snack. I know for myself. I had an experience like this. I was picking up my daughter from daycare and had a busy day. We were walking home. So I was getting lots of exercise that day and as I was approaching home, I just noticed all of these worried thoughts were coming up for me. I was like, oh, I think my husband was traveling that day. I started wondering, is he going to get home safe? How’s this going to go? And I just was like, When was the last time you ate? Why are you worrying about this? Like there’s no reason for me to think that my husband wouldn’t come home safely that night and sure enough, it had been about six hours, so I got an after-school snack. And with my daughter, I didn’t have an anxious evening. I just had an anxious thought. So from my personal experience and from working with my patients, it’s definitely something that can be helpful for a lot of people. 

Carrie: Yeah. Can you elaborate on that point that you made about neurotransmitters and protein because neuro-transmitters are like the things that are targeted essentially in medications for anxiety, like, SSRI, those types of things are affecting serotonin. So talk with us a little bit about that protein connection. 

Dr. Katie: Protein is the building blocks of your neuro-transmitters without getting overly technical about amino acid breakdowns, and which ones become, which neuro-transmitters I always invite my patients to just consider. Do you want your body to have just enough protein to make it your neuro-transmitters or do you want to have abundant protein so that it’s easy for your body to find the building blocks? It needs to make these neurotransmitters. 

I don’t do a lot of precision medicine or genetic testing in my practice. That’s just not how I focus. I focus more on basic principles, like eating protein because I find that’s more accessible for most people who are really struggling, but we’re looking at some of those more precision pieces we get into this idea that, what if you have a genetic polymorphism or a change in your own genome that makes it harder for you to make a certain neurotransmitter or piece of mechanics in your body.

That’s important for your nervous system. One of the ways nutritionally that we look to support that is just making sure that there’s an abundance of everything that you need in order to make those systems run. But really there is no need in most people, I would say to do that precision piece as a starting point, most people are not having tons of protein throughout their day.

And so just looking at that, especially if you’re feeling anxious and your stomach’s upset, it doesn’t feel good when you eat certain foods, looking at how to get in just regular sources of protein, eggs, chicken, fish, like just food can really make a difference in making sure that you have the pieces that you need.

The other reason that I really love focusing on protein for my patients with anxiety is it’s very stabilizing to blood sugar. One of the things we’re learning about anxiety and blood sugar is that folks who have anxiety seem to be sensitive to hypoglycemia. So when they eat something that’s high in sugar, their body is very good at removing it from the bloodstream. And actually their blood sugar can go too low and cause that like, shakiness and nausea. 

You were describing earlier as like, oh, I’m hungry and I need to eat. Including protein when you eat for a lot of people with anxiety causes that to be more modulated. So less of those crashes and spikes and more of that, even blood sugar, which facilitates an even mood sugar is the fuel that our brain is using to make decisions and feed our nervous system throughout the day. So when we can eat in a way that keeps it stable, we can keep our thinking more stable. 

Carrie: That’s good. I know that it’s very easy to eat a lot of carbs and sugar, especially in the American diet and the processed foods that we have in different things. And so focusing on those stabilizing factors of protein, that sounds really helpful, and I’ve never heard anyone break it down quite like that. So I appreciate that explanation with neuro-transmitters and anxiety. We talked a little bit about eating more protein, focusing on adding things that we need to add, like produce. Are there any other small steps that you encourage people to take to help improve their nutrition?

Dr. Katie: There’s two more steps that I look at the third and know we can refer back to your earlier episode on mindfulness, but is to eat mindfully. When we pay attention to what we’re eating, we’re more likely to get those hunger cues that we were talking about earlier. Understand our fullness. We’re less likely to have emotional eating when we’re paying attention to our food and we’re less distracted and it also involves our brains. And eating and really, that’s a great tool that a lot of us forget about when we’re paying attention to our food and we’re taking time to taste and savor it.

Our brain tells our digestive system, hey, food’s coming. And that creates an opportunity for our digestion to be optimal, which we want. So we can then absorb all of those wonderful nutrients that we’ve taken all the effort to include in our diet. If you’ve taken time to chop up a salad or open a bagged salad, instead of opening something that was a little bit easier grabbing some of those like chips or fries, or even doing both, including some salad and some French fries with your food rather than one or the other. 

You want your body to be eating those and you want to enjoy them, especially when you are eating foods that you’re eating for pleasure, not just for nutritional value. You want to save for that. And those moments of joy beyond their helpfulness nutritionally, it’s soul food. It’s good for our spirits to say, this is delicious and I’m enjoying it with my friends and family. This tastes really good. Having those moments of pleasure when eating and paying attention, I think is really important. You feel like that helps our digestive system. A hundred percent when we’re tasting our food, the digestion, we always forget.

We think it starts like in our stomach, but the digestion starts in our mouth and it’s not just the chewing. We have this wonderful sensory organ of our tongue and our nose, and that’s sending information to our brain saying, hey, this is what’s coming. When we taste foods like vegetables that have bitter notes that cause our digestive system to increase its gastric juices, to say,  here’s some stomach acid, here’s some enzymes. You’re going to need this to absorb this food properly in order to break it down. 

When we really pay attention to that sensory experience, we maximize digestion. I feel like you’ve just given us all permission to enjoy our food because so many times people feel like, well, if I’m going to eat healthy, it’s like, here I am with the bran flakes, like choking it down, like, I don’t even want to be eating this, but I think that you can find good foods and eat healthily and enjoy your food.

I hope so. I think that that is really where the joy comes in. When you look at how I can increase my vegetables, how can I enjoy things like that. It’s a lot easier to do when you actually enjoy eating the vegetables. I love to cook and I’ve been on this journey of discovering my favorite way to eat all of the different vegetables. So for example, my favorite way to eat cauliflower is roasted with Kumon and lots of olive oil and salt. Yes. It has salt and it has known fat on it, but that doesn’t make it a bad food. In fact, it makes it delicious and then I eat more of it. 

Carrie: Yes. I like cauliflower roasted like that in the oven. I don’t usually eat it any other way, which is kind of interesting. I don’t necessarily like it raw and anyway, that’s a whole nother issue. But I think finding the ways that you enjoy the vegetables is important. If you’re going to be eating more of them, if you just think, oh, I’ve got to eat it this way and I can’t. I have to make myself enjoy it. That’s just going to be torture. Find some good recipes, experiment, enjoy the process and get more vegetables in your day. Tell us about your book. Create Calm. 

Dr. Katie: My book Create Calm was really brought out of my wish to share the tranquil minds method that I work with my one-on-one patients on with more people. Like I said, I practice in Ontario, Canada. So I really can only help people who are in Ontario, Canada. I was feeling really limited by that. I took my clinical methodology where we go through the five pillars of performance that we talked about earlier and put them in this book in order to educate how to go about increasing the pillars.

There’s a whole section on nutrition, which goes into depth about how to do the things we talked about today. Like including protein and produce and focusing on eating regularly and mindful eating. But there’s also sections on the rest of the pillars that we didn’t get to today: how to maximize your sleep hormones, how melatonin comes in, how you can make your own melatonin, how to think about bringing in mindfulness and how to evaluate your exercise. So that again, like we talked about enjoying your vegetables, you’re actually finding joy in movement rather than that obligatory. Well, I better go for a run because otherwise I’ll have more anxiety. 

Carrie: Good and the tranquil minds program, you actually have an online program as well.

Is that right? 

Dr. Katie: I do. So the tranquil mind was born out of my clinical work and some folks learn better from a book, but some people learn better from an online course. The training program is available through online modules where you can listen to me talk and you get access to a workbook that walks you through over six weeks kind of like a bootcamp style of revamping these health habits, where each week we’re working on a different piece of each pillar. 

So we start with eating regularly and looking at your boundaries. Then we move into protein and produce and exercise. Then we really grow from there till we reach the last week, which is our connections module. We talk about getting to know yourself, your relationship with yourself, looking at your community relationships and how to develop closer friendships. And then also your spiritual health, finding that connection to God or to however you connect with something bigger beyond our day-to-day self.

Carrie: Okay. Towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person. 

Dr. Katie: I love this question. I love this segment on your other episodes, because I think it’s so important to just reflect back and be grateful for the times where you have experienced that. I know when I look back at my life, there were a few times that I was trying to pick from, but I wanted to talk about my clinical work and seeing my patients. Sometimes I meet people and I feel like I’m looking at them almost through a cloud. If you’re trying to see what’s really going on, I always experienced so much hope and gratitude. When I feel like I can see a peak behind who this person is behind their anxiety and when I get to hear things like I don’t have anxiety anymore, or I really love myself now, I feel like I finally understand self love, that gives me more hope than anything else in my life. I’m just so grateful for the opportunities to witness that. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really beautiful. Seeing the true person that’s underneath those like layers of symptoms is great. So thank you so much for being on the show today. I think that this has been informative. I know that I’ve learned some things about nutrition and anxiety, and I hope that other people have as well.

Dr. Katie: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been my absolute pleasure. 

If you love the show in general or found this episode particularly helpful, please share with a friend. Word of mouth is always the best advertising. Just a reminder that our webinar is coming up this Saturday and it is not too late to sign up.

So go on our website: hopeforanxietyandocd.com/webinar and hope to see you.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum.  Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

43. Overcoming Anxiety about Career and Calling with Kelsey Kemp

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 43. Overcoming Anxiety about Career and Calling with Kelsey Kemp


I had the privilege of interviewing Kelsey Kemp, a Christian career coach, speaker and podcaster. We had an interesting conversation about career and calling that will help you gain a new perspective on making career decisions that honor God. 

  • What to do when you get anxious about making career decisions?
  • How to make a wise career decision?
  • How to know God’s will for your career?
  • Scripture verses about choosing a career and using your God-given talent. 
  • Steps to take if your work isn’t aligned with your purpose and calling.
  • How to evaluate whether it’s time to stay or leave your job?

Links and Resources:

Verses and Scriptures discussed: Mark 12:30, Matthew 7:7, Proverbs 16:9,
Matthew 25:14–30, Romans 8:28, Matthew 6:33, Matthew 25
Kelsey Kemp
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Transcript

Carrie: Welcome to Hope For Anxiety and OCD, episode 43. If you’re new to the show, I am your host Carrie Bock. And on this podcast, we’re all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthy connections with God and others. Today, I’m gonna be talking with Kelsey Kemp, a certified career coach. 

One of the reasons that I wanted to talk about overcoming anxiety, related to career and calling is because oftentimes this is an area as Christians where we can really get hung up on what we’re supposed to be doing with our lives occasionally. I know for myself, even though I’ve only had one career per say, I’ve got a master’s degree and became a therapist right away. 

However, along that journey, I’ve had many different jobs. And I feel like I’ve learned different things from each of those jobs. And at some point before I got into my private practice and had my own business. Became self-employed. I came to this crossroads really of, I read this book called “The real adventures of working girl”. About a woman who had had a bunch of different jobs. And I sat down, had this prayer time with the Lord and was like, okay, what is the role for me? Where do I thrive? What do I do the best? And it allowed me to, instead of just going and looking for a job that was out there really mapping out what my ideal job, where my strengths really go and what fits with me.

And so, I’m so excited, Kelsey, to have you on the show to talk about some of these things, because I think it’s gonna be really valuable to people maybe who are anxious about, am I, am I in the right job or my in the right career? And you know, am I too old? Is it too late for me to change? There’s so many questions that, and anxiety can really keep people stuck in a place where they don’t need to be. So thanks for coming on and talking about this with us?

Kelsey: Oh my goodness. Well, now I actually just went to dominate this interview and ask you questions. You said about your exploration of different jobs. And at first I was like, she’s a unicorn that stayed in the same career the whole time. But even you acknowledging that you had multiple different facets to enrolls how you play that out. I thought that is actually, so how callings go a lot of the time, even if you only figure that out in hindsight. But there was something drawing it all together, but there’s a lot of ways that you could go about it. But man, do I also relate in what you’re saying about “how this is like a cesspool for anxiety”.

Carrie: Right.

Kelsey: With career decisions and wearing off, am I gonna  miss it wrong? Am I just going to totally derail God’s plan for me, side note? He’s way more powerful than. But anyway, yes thank you I can’t wait to dive in. Obviously I’m already, like jumping out of the bed, getting ready to go. 

Carrie: How did you get into this business of helping Christians finding their calling? 

Kelsey: Goodness. So I listen to business podcasts all the time, and I recently heard somebody say “business is actually just radical empathy”. And it’s also reminding me of, I’m reading through all the gospels again right now of work as a way that we carry out the second greatest commandment, you know. The first being loved the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. I think I got the order, right. And you always mess it up. And then the second being, love your neighbor as yourself. So my story very much started with being the person that needed this help.

Right out of college I went into tech consulting. So I was working for a really huge multinational firm. I was in their digital and emerging tech group as a business analyst. Helping it really large firms develop new, basically overhaul their integrated Tech systems. And a lot of people, when I would say that, would say, that sounds so cool. And I, my ego, what’s a, yes, that’s why I chose this one. That’s why I wanted you to say, or that’s what I wanted you to think about me, but it was so incredibly dissatisfying. And after two years, I really realized. I had spent so much of my academic journey and my young professional journey, doing things that others deemed as most valuable or sought after. And it led me to just white knuckle my way into saying “I can do it look, look at what I could do”. And over time that just wears on you. I mean, two years, I guess it didn’t even take that much time. It wore on me so much to realize that what you’re called to do is so much different than just doing what you can.

So, I was very much suffering in my health, my mental health, and in the bottom of that pit, just so desperate. God, would you please show me what is your will for my life? Isn’t that kind of the common prayer?

Carrie: Right.

Kelsey: Please show your will for my life. Please show me, please show me, please show me. And after her whole life, I just realized when I would dwell on Matthew seven, seven of the famous, like asking it will be given to you. Seeking, you shall find, knock and the door will be open to you. That sounds like a pretty active process actually. 

Carrie: Yes.

Kelsey: And I realized I was waiting for God to actually, just write the direct 10 step instruction list on the wall for me. And I felt convicted of my spiritual brattiness actually. God, I need you to essentially, I realize, assure me from all discomfort and the guilty. I want you to confirm that I’m going to have, It’s such a significant life of my dreams, and I want you to get me on the direct path to being there without any searching. And so when I realized, okay, I really gotta start making this an active process, doing my research, learning about fields that I don’t even know exist because I realized I had a pretty childlike view of what career options were available to me. All the while God just revealed to me this moment of remembering what my mom always said of necessity is the mother of invention.

Again, that’s a theme of love your neighbor as yourself. What did I most want? I wanted somebody to help me discern what I was truly called to do occupationally. And so I thought I’m 24 and I have no idea how to solve that problem. But man, that would be so amazing. If one day I figured out the solution and then gave it to other people.

So I thought, why don’t I just start now? So I signed up to become a certified career coach. And it started my practice actually earlier in life than I thought I could. Did I get some laughs along the way? Absolutely like it was not lost on me though. I was 24 and it’s been three years since then. Still I get some laughs, but I’ve worked with people even in their sixties executives. God has been very, very gracious with me. 

Carrie: That’s awesome. That’s really awesome. It’s just a great testimony of how God uses our struggles and turns it into something beautiful for. Then you to be able to pass the torch on and, like, help the next person who was going through what you were going through just a few years ago.

Kelsey: Exactly. He wastes nothing. 

Carrie: Right. So you talked about this a little bit, like where people really are like, okay, God, you know, show me. You know, show me your calling. And I think there can be this anxious component among some Christians of like, okay, what if I miss it? What if, like God’s calling us some kind of bullseye and I shoot the arrow and I just, I totally end up on the wrong target. And I ended up in this job that God just doesn’t have for me. Or maybe you feel like you’re in that job right now. Oh gosh. I just feel like I’m totally wasting my time or missing out on, what it is God has and we look at calling is some kind of, like big, you know mysterious thing that we’re gonna miss it. And we’re gonna mess it up. What would you say to somebody that’s dealing with some of that right now? 

Kelsey: I think one, I will quote Tim Keller most likely in abundance during this interview, because he just informs so much of the theology of work that has really helped me come to this point. But one thing he said was no, that God’s will, is more of something that he does then he gives. And so we want all the clear instructions, but what he actually models for us in the Bible is it says in Proverbs 16, Verse 1 and 9 are quite similar, but 9, it says “A man’s plans belong to his heart, but God is the one that establishes the guards, his steps”. And what does that take? It actually takes lifting your foot and, and then God will direct it in the right place. 

But what we see in the parable of the talents that has been, so that is probably one of the most foundational scriptures to my career coaching practice of seeing the, you know, the parable of the three servants, the master who’s going well on a long journey gives each of them a he, He divides his wealth among them. It says according to their abilities and he did not give them any instructions at all. But you see that when the master comes back at an unpredictable time, you see that the rules were actually clear all along. He always knew he was going to judge each of them. Based on what they did in absence of instructions.

Carrie: Wow!

Kelsey: So he, and it was so clear and to the servant who out of fear saying “Master, I didn’t, you’re a shrewd man. I didn’t want to make you angry if I lost any of it”. So he buried his talent in the ground and I like how talent it’s meaning the piece of gold, but actually just in English. It’s interesting to think, Okay, what about my innate resources? Of my abilities too. 

Carrie: Sure.

Kelsey: I will bury it in the ground for fear of losing anything. And he said “you wicked and lazy servant” and it reminds me of the Matthew effect too. Those who have little understanding, even what little they have is taken away. But those who have understanding even more will be given to them. So what did the faithful servants get? They doubled their masters’ wealth. We don’t know if it was by taking it to a certain brand of bank. We don’t know if they invested in a certain new crop that was all up to them, but their result was that they doubled their master’s wealth in absence of instructions. And the master said, “well done, good and faithful servant. Now come and share in your master’s happiness”. And that is what work is like to me, that faithfulness, of course, we’re here to serve and not be served, but our father in heaven is so gracious that he does give us joy, fulfillment, purpose, happiness. We’re not chasing happiness, but he says, “here that comes from me. I’ll give you all more than you can imagine, when you’re faithful”. And so to answer your question, just kind of more tangibly, as I think about, kind of that bag of gold in the parable of the talents. 

I imagine us coming into this life and we have all these clues and these breadcrumbs, our internal resources of who God made us to be with our innate talents when we’re reborn in him and the spirit, our spiritual gifts. Our core values that are unique to each of us, our personality, all these things. Those are all context clues that you’re meant to multiply those natural, also the opportunities physically that are given to you and the spheres of influence and the abilities and all these things multiply those for the glory of God.

I pay attention to the breadcrumbs and the context clues and make a wise decision based on what career path given my research and exploration and talking to many people. Do I think, would best glorify God and serve others? And I can trust that God’s going to also bring me joy through that. They don’t have to worry. And that is when I think you can know you’re following a calling because God teaches you so much through action. Clarity comes through action, not just from thinking and not especially for whom honestly, having a kind of sparse. I will be very honest prayer life of only saying, God, show me your well, God, show me your well with your arms crossed in a dark room, refusing to do any research or trusting or taking action.

Carrie: Sometimes we have to take that risk and we have to try things and see how it works out. And that can be scary at times, just thinking of, you know, different things that I’ve done, even going to get a master’s in counseling. I hadn’t ever sat down and talked to a counselor about what their job was like. Looking back on that, that probably would have been a good idea to do, for seeing what kind of careers are available to me afterwards. 

But I knew like when I got into that room and I had my first session with someone, it was like, there was this wave that came over me like, this is it. This is what I’m supposed to do. You just, I just innately knew that. And I didn’t know exactly how that was going to manifest out. It’s manifested in ways that I couldn’t have imagined, but if I hadn’t have, taken that step to move across the country to go to graduate school, to try out counseling, then I wouldn’t have known. And I know some people that got into that practicum and they had a completely different experience and they were like, you know, I think I wanna do more church type ministry, but maybe counseling. Isn’t the professional nature of it. It’s not really for me. 

I have a friend that uses her counseling degree working in a museum. She’s not doing any formal counseling, but she loves what she does. And she works with people and got hired because she could do people because she has a counseling degree. So it was just incredible how God been steer and guide us. I can’t remember the quote, but it’s basically something to the effect of God can steer you if you’re moving, but it’s kind of hard for God to steer you. If you’re just not moving. If you’re standing still.

Kelsey: And that’s called a Whirlpool, actually, if you’re just spinning around in circles, actually, that’s why a lot of my most anxious thoughts felt like it felt like I was spinning when I wasn’t just making a decision about my career. I, again, Tim Keller. He has this whole sermon. I really recommend anyone looks it up on YouTube. It’s called, “Your plans versus God’s plans”. And he excellently breaks down the mystery of God’s sovereignty and our free will. And he says, anytime that somebody comes to him and says “much would I do in my career”? Whatever. He says, “make a decision” and they say, “how spiritual have you? You’re supposed to be a pastor”. And making decisions. Practicing wisdom is how you become more and more the kind of person who discerns God’s will. And I will definitely be sending this episode to people because of what you said of how you were already in the room, when you had that feeling of confirmation of calling.

Wash over you. And it was a feeling of confirmation, not of go, do this. 

When you were in high school. I don’t know. Or like, in you’re on the volleyball court and this just like, Hey, Carrie you can be a counselor. That’s not how it, how it went. We would love it. But honestly, in the end, I don’t think we would want that to happen because God is sovereign. And He knows that we have to through experience, train our hearts to be faithful to Him. And especially in ambiguity. 

Carrie: Yes. Yes, that’s true. And you can pray about things and sometimes you don’t have the clearest sense. It’s not something that’s for or against in the Bible. You know, if it’s very clear, aligned with scripture, okay, this is very clear. You know, I need to do that. And or if it’s very not aligned with the values of scripture, then we know, okay, that’s not what I should be doing. 

But many, many, many I’d say most decisions in our life we make, we can’t go directly to the Bible to find the answer to that. We have to base it on biblical principles and values of loving God, loving people. What we sense in our spirit, because I do believe that. The holy spirit speaks to us. And sometimes we just sense that internally of like, this is a no, and I don’t even have to know why it’s a no, it’s just a no for me. So we can, we can trust those things that, that God gives us. But sometimes we just have to say, okay God, I, I’m not sure, but this is the decision or the direction that I believe that you’re sending me in. And I’m gonna, I’m going to go in that direction. And do it. I think that you’re, you know, you’re spot on with what you’re saying.

Kelsey: If it’s okay. I would like to speak a little bit more to the question of, can we miss our callings? Cause I think that there’s one more aspect to this conversation of yes, you and I just supported a lot of points to say, generally speaking, God will faithfully lead you in that direction. And also we should just know that our free will is not a joke. We’re not all the way like puppets on strings. There actually are plenty of options. Just like I think our culture is finally releasing our grip on the view of their being the one that you will marry.

There’s a lot of personal choice involved with that as well. Though we know that we can trust God, he’s guiding us. It’s complicated. But what I wanted to say as an additional point of perspective is, and this is hard to admit. It’s quite honest and honest look at life, but we can miss our calling in general. Yes, because one, if we look at our primary calling that we see in the Bible to follow Jesus. To believe in him to have a salvific relationship, to go and make disciples of all the nations. That’s the great commission. 

Carrie: Right.

Kelsey: You see those callings are very direct instructions that are blatantly listed out. Do people opt out of those constantly?

Yes. Is it unequivocally God’s will that we would all follow them? Yes. So why would we believe that we cannot also opt out of faithfulness? In all other decisions in life and not re consequences. Is that harrowing? Yes. I mean, have we all seen that person who has squandered their talents for a lifetime bearing under them under many, many excuses that I’m sure are valid, but you know, you could, as an option, trust God.

Precede regardless, but yes, I think that we’ve all seen that example play out. And so this is something that is harrowing, but important to acknowledge that you can opt out of faithfulness at any point. And why, if you are not communing with your creator and seeing work as an and your calling as an opportunity to commune with him, And so if you’re not even obeying your first command to be in a relationship with him, why would you believe that he would just release you to go have all your idols in the world?

Which of course you can, but then he will always be knocking at your door saying, “come back to me, come back to me”. So I’m not sure if that was a little long and winding of an answer, but I have spoken at a few places and especially students come up to me and they’re like, “you know what? I was just so encouraged for your talk”, to know, like I can’t miss my calling and I thought, wait, did I say that? No.

I think that, like, if you’re opting into faithfulness, you could trust absolutely that you are a part of God’s promises. He’s guiding your steps. He’s even guiding your words, as it says in Proverbs 16:1. “And he is working all things together for your good, for those.” What does it say when people just say he’s working all those things to your good in Romans 8:28, but they don’t mention the last part of that first “for those that are called according to his purpose who love him and are called according to his purpose”.

Carrie: Right. 

Kelsey: So I think that there is like, a pulling up to the bar. And then I think that you could be super secure.

Carrie: Right. I think about Matthew 6:33, that “seek first his kingdom and all these things shall be added to you”. It’s like if you have your priorities and your perspectives in order, and you are seeking God, who’s going to lead and guide you and whatever that next piece is, the next step, you don’t get the whole roadmap. Sorry. That’s not how spirituality Christianity works. I’ve never gotten the whole roadmap and I’m not expecting you to either, but you will get the next piece of the puzzle. The next step along the way, 

Kelsey: But who would we become if we actually had the full roadmap, actually in all of the, those end of times, Parables, especially in Matthew chapter 25, the bridegroom didn’t announce when he would be coming back and the virgins with the lambs. It was to test who was faithful and the master didn’t announce when he was coming back from the journey. It was, so her true character could be revealed. And if we just got all the assurance in the world, here’s your life story one. I don’t think we would actually want that. That’d be kind of like, I don’t know. I want a little mystery of my life, but then also this is an opportunity to grow with him in the midst of uncertainty. 

Carrie: What would you say, just shifting gears a little bit to someone who is in a work environment and they don’t believe that that aligns with their faith or calling, like for example, maybe the company is expecting them to work too many hours and that doesn’t align with their God-given need for rest or God given need to spend time with their family and put them as the priority that they want to. Maybe the company is just. All about profits and they don’t really care about the people that they’re serving or the people that are working for them. What would you say to someone who’s, who’s in that environment and just not feeling good about it? 

Kelsey: I would say the same thing to them that I would say to others who are even, maybe they would say their content at work, but they’re starting to get this inkling that maybe there’s some greater  thing that I could live into for God in my career, some greater measure of service and use of my vision, my aspirations, my talents. So whether it’s a really bad situation or a, maybe there’s something more, my advice is pretty much the same. Be proactive. Do not wait. I’m such a firm believer of, you don’t have to marry the first option that comes in your line of vision, you post you find, I think this could be my next step. Doesn’t mean that it’s time to jump ship tomorrow, but good grief. We all hear that saying like start with the end in mind. 

So essentially you could reverse engineer what you need to do in the meantime. Let’s understand what that end is in terms of starting. The discernment journey of what are you called to on an overarching level, given who God created you to be very specifically what he put on your heart to go do or serve, like to help who doing what, why? And then the last step after that more bigger vision discernment is the very practical of great what jobs, what role title.

Companies would allow me to best carry that out or what business idea would allow me to carry that out. That’s great too. And so then you can only then really kind of reverse engineer. All right. Wait. So now that I have that, well, at least I know I could start acting on it at any time. I think it’s appropriate. And so then it’s kind of a more detailed conversation of when do I jump into that next thing, but at least you have started the discernment journey when here’s the key. When like, before you are seeing red and deeply stressed out, there’s just a, you know, you’re a mental health professional. When somebody is in a fight or flight, you actually are not able to perceive.

The reality of the array of options available to you when you act, physically get tunnel vision. And so how therefore would you be able to perceive some cool thing that maybe otherwise you wouldn’t think is possible or go out and do more research and have more tenacity in that, or make a decision out of faith and not fearfulness. All those things start early. I really recommend it. At least being very thoughtful about exploring, especially through informational interviews. You know, even if you’re slightly interested or you heard about somebody’s job title and you’re like, I wonder what that is. Or you have a family friend and you think they’re just doing the coolest thing, even if you don’t.

Aren’t a hundred percent sure. That’s the key, don’t make a decision before you actually do research. I find people really forced themselves to make career decisions before they know what the day-to-day reality is like in that job, what tasks they would spend the majority of their time doing, what the career outlook, what the growth trajectory is. And if they’re okay with all of those things, I find that people do not want to have a coffee chat with someone, unless they’ve already decided, I for sure want to be an HR professional because I’m a people person. And little did they know there’s a ton of paperwork involved in that. And also there are so many different specialties in HR it’s mind-boggling. So, if you do those informational interviews, you would know that, but I find that people try to decide beforehand so they could treat their networking conversations as a. I’m just going to say a few things to sound impressive until I could get to the punchline where I asked you to pass on my resume when actually it should have just purely been a research conversation. 

Carrie: That’s good to note, I think. Are there any specific guidelines that you use when helping people evaluate whether it’s time to stay or time to go and their job?

Kelsey: There’s a couple, and I actually have a frequency about this on my website that goes through in depth, some more on each of these criteria and it’s interactive and it’s not meant to make you make a rush decision. That’s the point just to, help you predict, okay. What are the number of months that I should really be expecting and why? If it is a yes, I should leave. Why and what else did I do instead? So that’s some of the things that can help, but to run through a few of them right now, one, do you actually want your boss’s job or your boss’s boss’s job? Do you actually, not only, maybe on one end, if there are growth opportunities within your current field or your current company, do you want them, or it may be, I’ve talked to a lot of people that do like their job, but they get frustrated because, they are current company does not offer advancement opportunities and that’s essential to career satisfaction.

So that’s one thing advancement. Do you have the opportunity and do you want it, and what about your team and your boss? Is it, I think there’s not too much to be sat on that it talks about. Can you trust your management? I think that’s something I take quite seriously because I’ve seen people booted out. I’ve seen bad reports given that are not merited. If you actually cannot trust your management, then, that I have a dear friend right now. Who’s going through that? Not merited whatsoever that is truly something to get out of quickly.

What about, are you interested in the subject matter of your work whatsoever? Maybe you’ve been sticking around because you enjoy your coworkers and there’s a few perks and you have a really cool summer party and a Christmas party, and you liked those things or your interviewer’s servicemen is just the best.

And you want to stick around for that or the health insurance. It’s just, premium, but what about the actual tasks that you’re doing? Do they agree and utilize your innate abilities? If not, or if not all the way. I think that’s something that we could always maximize when you truly find your point of creative genius, which I believe exists in everybody. And you find what task reveals that cause maybe you haven’t stumbled upon the thing that reveals it again test experiments. 

Then, oh, man, you don’t even know what sense of flow like buzzing focus and satisfaction that kind of like, and God got to the end of the six days kicked back and said, “that was very good”. That kind of feeling you were missing out. So maybe it’s not like, I hate this or it’s so terrible, but maybe you could just maximize again, like multiplication divine multiplication is a huge theme, especially in the gospel. 

Carrie: I think something, you have to take this step back and say, is it my actual job duties that I’m not liking? Or is it the job duties? Is it the structure of how this company has structured the job duties? Maybe I really enjoy my job, but the boss is super micromanage or their coworkers are always whining and griping and complaining, and it’s just like a negative environment to be in. And so sometimes it’s hard to tease those things out cause you just look at it as one whole picture.

But I think like, what you’re saying is it’s like, do I need a different company where I could do the same thing, but maybe have more freedom, autonomy, better benefits, whatever it is, or do I need to be doing something, a different type of tasks, because I’m just not passionate about this, the way that I was in the past and those kind of things can shift and change for sure. And you have to kind of tune in and pay attention to that.

Kelsey: Absolutely. And the last thing I’ll say on this, as you are allowed to see a measure, when we say responsibility, our culture often means hunkering down and like counting the 10 beans that you were given and making sure nothing happens to them. That really sounds like the unfaithful servant. I actually, I think responsibilities should be more defined by.

I assessed everything that God gave me in everything that He, I really believe is a, such a God-given desire that He put on my heart. And I did my darndest with it. I just went for it. A lot of wisdom is not deciding between good or bad it’s deciding between best or better. And I think that I just want to say you are allowed to change jobs. That doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person. That doesn’t mean you’re a bad Christian. That was a big deal for me because my main idea of the theology around work that I grew up around was, and I’m not blaming any pastor because you know, they’re not a career coach. They’re not obsessed with studying the Bible through the lens of career ethics as I am. That’s okay. That’s why I’m doing what I’m doing. 

But what I did pick up was to be a good Christian at work is to just take whatever God gave you, which by the way, releases all agency from yourself in whatever job is right in front of you, you just have to take it. That’s kind of the read between the lines that I got and you just have to be excellent at it, which again, the read between the lines is just stick in it and make sure that you perform better than everybody else. So one day somebody like Jim at the water cooler. Really? Why are you so much better of a CPA than everybody else? Will you share the gospel with me? And that’s just not how it works. Honestly, due to convict grace, like, oh my gosh. non-Christians and Christians and non-Christians can be so much better at a job than Christians can. That’s fine. So, anyway, I think faithfulness, it’s just a choosing for better or choosing the better, not just managing only what you have, expanding your impact for the kingdom. You don’t have to stay where you’re at. 

Carrie: That’s so good. That’s so good. Because I, I’ve talked with clients who have felt guilt over leaving their job. I don’t want to leave my manager in a bad place or just very conscientious of what other people are experiencing or thinking, or they’re not wanting to disappoint someone.

Maybe I, this coworker helped me get this job. I feel like I shouldn’t leave or there’s so many emotions that can get tied up in those things. Even when we know clearly, like in our mind and in our spirit know, it’s time, like it’s time to move on.

Kelsey: And if the spirit is telling you that, and you know that you will be able to glorify God more and serve others better in another place, then pull you. Trust the Lord to fill that seat with somebody better, which is very humbling. Okay. 

Carrie: Wow!

Kelsey: He has the whole puzzle mapped out, please. your only concern is to follow him and play your piece. He will figure out the rest. I also speak with clients that are really, they see so many problems in the world. I think that I, you know, I, this was a big part of my quarter life crisis. There are so many things I care about. So many things I’m grieved by. The most loving thing you could do is to pick the one you. I don’t want to say just pick one, because that freaks always freaked me out. But what about in a more playful way, pick the one that you’re drawn towards most. And trust God to be God in you to be a human who could probably just do one thing super duper well. He will fill out the rest. 

Carrie: That’s good. This has just been a really great, great conversation. I’ve enjoyed it so much. 

Kelsey: Likewise. 

Carrie: At the end of the podcast, I like to ask every guest to share a story of hope, which is a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person. 

Kelsey: I cannot wait for the story though.

I’m about to share it. So I actually wish I received this from someone in person, but admittedly, I heard it on a podcast, but it was just too good not to tell all my friends about, even still to this day. I, gosh, this instilled so much awe in me like God is so big. And I’m so small, of when this pastor in country and the Middle East undisclosed. He is ruthlessly going out and risking his life, sharing the gospel all the time. And even though he really is, I think doing, I wanted to say like taking everything in his hands as much as he can. I would rather say he’s stewarding his job as much as possible. 

He’s initiating conversations about God everywhere he goes, but still in humility, he said, “don’t, don’t get it wrong. God is the only one that could save someone”. I, and it reminds me of the loaves and the fishes of, your job is only, I love how Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the chosen. He says this, he says, “Your job is only to bring the five loaves and the two fishes for Jesus to bless”. Even if you’re like Jesus, like there’s 5,000 people here.

There’s no way this is, this feels really dumb. Bring it to him and it is not your job to feed the 5,000, it is only your job to bring the loaves and the fish. Jesus it’s the one that will multiply it for 5,000. So similarly, this guy he’s saying, “God is the one who saves”. Let me give you an example. I went out into an incredibly rural village, has almost no contact with the outside world.

I went into this one man’s tent and I was telling him about the gospel and this man said, “I’ve heard of these things”. And the pastor’s like how the business is so remote. And it’s a predominantly Muslim country. And he, he said a man dressed in white has been coming to my tent every single night for months. And he’s been telling me to write things down and the pastor said, “Show me what he’s told you to write down”. Wow! Word for word it was the entire book of John from the gospels. 

Carrie: Wow! In his language?

Kelsey: In his language. 

Carrie: That’s incredible.

Kelsey: So that’s what God means when he says I am the one who calls you. But like he said to Moses, I made you have a mouth. Okay. All I need you to do, but I don’t even need you. It was an Acts 17 as if He is served by human hands, he’s not, he could do this all himself, but he knows for our hearts that we need to participate with him because as a gift, it’s a gift to him or to us actually. But anyway, he says to Moses, I gave you your mouth. I’ll also give you the words to say to Pharaoh. I’m really just asking you to walk into his court. And He is the one who calls us, but all of our callings are for him and for his glory and they will be done through his strength, achieving the results that he always wanted for himself. He just wants our faithful hearts to say, even though this seems ridiculous, I guess I’ll build the art.

Even those, this seems ridiculous. I’ll lift up the loaves and the fishes, even though I feel so scared, I’ll go into Pharaoh’s temple. I think that’s how our careers are supposed to feel. Not fearful because He commands us to fear not. And He commands us to not worry. And that’s not him. The disciples said at one point in the gospel, they were like, how is that possible? You’re asking us to be perfect. And Jesus said, “yes with man, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible”. So he’s not asking you something that you can’t do in him. You need not worry literally, but we can live quite gloriously on the edge for him. And that is what I really hope to help people do through my practice.

Carrie: And so, that’s awesome. I love it. Well, Kelsey, we’re gonna put your, the links to your website in the show notes so that people can find you. And my assistant is gonna go through and pull all the scripture references, the scriptures that you mentioned today. And so we’ll put those in there. If people wanna do some study on those passages. I think that that would be awesome. 

Kelsey: All the best thing you can do. Let God preach to your heart. Not me.

Carrie: Thanks for being on the show today. 

Kelsey: Thank you so much. This was just the most jubilant conversation.

Carrie: One addendum that we forgot to talk about is that Kelsey has a podcast as well, called “Answer the Call”. So if you like what you heard today, and you want to hear more, go check out Kelsey’s podcast as well. She has a link through her website that we’re going to put in the show notes.

If you have been a regular listener to our show, I would love it. If you could rate and review us on iTunes or other platforms that you listen on that allow reviews that really helps people find our show and validate that we’re talking about good things. So I appreciate you so much for listening and taking the time to do that.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

42. Dealing with Anger in a Godly Way with Ed Snyder

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 42. Dealing with Anger in a Godly Way with Ed Snyder

Today’s special is a pastor and anger management expert, Ed Snyder.  Pastor Ed not only talks about his knowledge and insights about anger but also shares his personal experience with anger that nearly destroyed his marriage.  

  • How Pastor Ed recognized his anger problem and its root cause.
  • The turning point in his marriage that prompted him to find ways to deal with his anger.
  • Using your anger as a force for good and other anger management tips
  • The connection between anger and anxiety
  • Main triggers of anger
  • Ed Snyder’s book,  Control the Beast

Links and Resources

Ed Snyder

Control The Beast: A Guide To Managing Our Emotions
True North Podcast

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Transcript of Episode 42

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 42. I am your host Carrie Bock. And today on our show, we’re talking with Ed Snyder, who is a pastor, author and anger management expert.  I know he has his own experience with anger that he’s going to be sharing with you. And talking about incorporating spiritual principles.

Some people may wonder why are we talking about anger on a show that has to do with anxiety? Well, anger can be a complex emotion and often time runs alongside other emotions. So hang on. And if you deal with anger or know someone who does this content may be really helpful for you. 

Carrie: Ed, thanks for coming on the show and talking with us today.

Ed: Well, thank you, Carrie. It’s an honor to be here with you on your podcast. 

Carrie: When or how did you realize that anger had become a problem in your life? 

Ed: Wow, that’s been a minute ago. Well, let me start here. I was always the overweight kid. That was the bully magnet in school. So I was always getting made fun of. Speed up all that good stuff. I was quiet. You’d never tell that by knowing me now, but I was the quiet, shy type. Again. I knew I was overweight and all that good stuff. So I went through a lot of trauma there that was early on in my elementary school year. I think it was about in junior high. The is when I realized of course back then I took it as, Hey, I got some aggression here because my junior high football coach approached me and said, man, I want you on my team because of my size, you know?

And of course, I had a growth spurt at 12, so I stood six foot at 12 and husky. That’s what my mom always says. You’re just husky. So I think like a good old mom. And so it was then that I joined the football team and realize the aggression that I had pinned up inside of me. In fact, to the point that my coach handed me this weird looking pad, and he said, strap that onto the back of your hand beause I was center or nose guard. So I lined up with the center. Knocked that center out of the way and go sack the quarterbacks. And so I did because, and I was successful at it because I was angry and I didn’t identify the anger at that point so much as I identified the aggression that I had, it wasn’t after four concussions and I played in my seventh grade, my eighth-grade year and in my freshman year, I had made it to the varsity team that I realized this is a little more than just skill and aggression. This is anger because I get up, if I got tackled or knocked out of the way I got up and I was ready to beat somebody down, that’s when identified. And then, of course, after my fourth concussion, I created a brain bleed and ended up in the hospital for three months and was facing some surgery.

That’s a whole another testimony of what God did in my life, but that’s about the timeframe that I noticed the aggression and then realized what it really was, is the years of being bullied and, and the anger buildup. 

Carrie:  And being that you were playing football, was that aggression celebrated or did your coaches feel like, okay, this is a little bit too far, this is a little too much. 

Ed: Well, back then it was celebrated. It was like go after a man. That’s the way to sack them quarterbacks, you know, and all that stuff. Although I earned him a reputation among the other teams, especially locally that you’re going to have to go after Snyder because we can’t allow him to get in there.

And so they, they came a little extra hard against me because of the aggression, but it was celebrated, which didn’t help me. Sure. It kind of endorsed my vibe. Very negative behavior. 

Carrie: Okay. What was that process like later on in life when you did seek out help for the anger spiritually, mentally, emotionally.

Ed: Okay. Great question. And of course going along with my story, I was in high school then I got in my freshman year and of course, like I said, I was in the hospital three months. That  was a major interruption in my life. And that kind of made me realize, okay, you need to settle down. And I knew I had an issue because.

In my uncontrolled anger, there was two things you did not do to me. And that was hang up the phone on me or slam a door in my face. And my own mother was mad at me and, and we were having a heated conversation, but that way it was teenage rebellion that she was trying to deal with. Anyway, she slammed the door in my face and, it angered me.

And I put my fist through the wall beside the door. That’s when I’m like, this is not going well for me. So I just kinda dealt with it the only way I know how, which wasn’t much, but my turning point, Carrie was in, when I got married, I got married. I met my wife when I was. 15 and knew that’s her, that’s the girl I’m going to marry.

And my best friend Burt said, Hey dude, remember you’re only 15.

Carrie: You’ve got your whole life ahead of you. You don’t have to settle down yet. 

Ed: Another neat story, but you know, we’ll stick to the subject. It wasn’t until Gail and I got married and of course I hid it because I didn’t want her to know about this.

You know, I might lose her. She’s the love of my life in our first marriage discussion. And God’s got a real good sense of humor. He put together a hard-headed German descent and Irish descent. I mean it, a red headed Irish woman, just fun. Anyway. So we made a vow when we got married that we’ll never go to bed angry at each other that we’ll get it resolved.

And of course she really didn’t know. She knew I was. Irritated quote unquote, but she didn’t realize I had this issue. And so we agreed to that. We agreed and we valid each other. We’re never going to go to bed or go to sleep angry at each other. And then also she told me, he says, look, when I get upset, Just leave me alone.

Let me go for a while. Let me cool off, which is classic textbook anger management technique is to breathe, go intellectualize the situation, come back, deal with it. You know, I’m, the type. No we’re going to deal with it now. And so for the first 10 years of my marriage, I spent chasing her around the house and stop.

We got to fix this and I’m only fueling her fire, but anyhow, in our first marital discussion, you know, she walked off or tried. And, again, slammed the door in my face and she not only slammed the door, she locked it. And I went into outer space. And of course, in my anger, I put my fist through that door and unlocked it now for your audience.

Clarification. I have never, ever laid a hand on any woman, especially that of my wife. And of course my mother I’ve been raised better than that. So I never laid a hand on her, but I put my fist through the door and we finished the quote unquote conversation. Well, it wasn’t until the next morning that we got up, we were having breakfast and she said, I don’t know if I can do this.

And I’m like, do what, what are you talking about? Because, you know, angry people, once they have their fit, they’re rant, it’s over it’s water under the bridge, move on. And it wasn’t. So her, it shook her to her core that to see my fist come through that door and unlock it.

And then, you know, all the unnecessary shouting and screaming and all of that. So that was a wake up call when she said that I did not want to lose this lady. She’s the love of my life. She’s the one. And I wanted to stay married. And by the way, we’re celebrating this October 41 years. Yeah, I always tease and say, she’s such a blessed woman.

I’m actually the blessed one. So anyway, how did I realize? Or when did I realize that I had the problem? It was the progression and of course the process at that moment, that, again, that was the turning point for me. And I said, look, I don’t know how to do this. I’ve been fighting it for years. My teenage years.

All of that, I’ll get help wherever that is. Carrie, this was 40 years ago. Anger management classes wasn’t even in the universe, it didn’t exist. Printed material was rare, books on anger management, things like that. So I went to my pastor and I said, look, I need to chat. And so I went to him and.

And got an appointment with him. And I said, Hey, I need help. I got an anger issue and his advice was, well, son, get in the altar and pray and you’ll be okay. Let me clarify. I don’t want to ever take away the power of prayer. Sure. Pages things. I started. My journey in the learning is faith without works is dead.

I mean, we can pray all day long and fast until our tongues fall out. But if we don’t put some action, some works to our faith. We’re not going to get very far. So I took his advice. I got in the ultra and I really prayed and, and a man felt better got up in a day or two later. I’m I’m throwing things again, I’m yelling and screaming.

I’m back into the same mode. So Gail and I really just started a journey. Of trial and error when I’d get upset or get crazy, I’d cooled down. And of course we amplified not going to bed angry with each other, and we really worked on letting each other walk away and breathe and intellectualize the situation.

Then come back and talk about it. And I allowed her to tell me what I did wrong. So again, this whole process was started right there on 58. And that was when I was 18. I turned 18 September 10th and got married October 4th. I mean like I’m done. Let’s, let’s get this done. 

Carrie: That was probably hard in the beginning.

You were saying, I let her tell me. What I did wrong, really receiving that feedback of, Hey, even if it was how she perceived the situation and that could have been totally different than how you perceive the situation.

Ed: Yes. And it took a lot of discipline on my part to listen to her because she, even though she was inside the emotional circle, she was outside of my anger circle.

She was able to see what I, how I was reacting to things. What I was reacting to. And was able to help me troubleshoot that and define why did you get angry with when I said mashed potatoes, that’s an example that, but you know, sometimes we get mad over the most ridiculous things. Big, not because mashed potatoes, but it’s the emotional time.

Way back in the subconscious mind. 

Carrie: So there wasn’t a whole lot of help out there for you. Like you really looked for books and materials there weren’t classes. Now you’re actually involved in teaching some of those classes, correct?

Ed: Yes. I’ve. I’ve professionally taught anger management and emotional intelligence. Probably about 17 years give or take. Yeah. And again, back then 40 years ago, again, printed material was just virtually, almost non-existent. I found very level classes, training, teaching on it.

 Non-existent so as soon as stuff started being printed, I kept an eye on the shelves, I’m kind of a book freak anyway, so I know my Barnes and noble days was long and I’d go in there.

And look around and when I found something, I bought it and I read it and I digested it and I tried everything I could to apply to my life to help me. 

Carrie: Good. That’s good. Because anger can be destructive. And you already talked about that, like, putting your hand through a door or. Breaking things.

Christians sometimes try to suppress it or avoid it like we’ve labeled instead of labeling that behavior as sinful, we’ve labeled the emotion of anger itself as sinful and how can Christians develop a healthy, biblical understanding of anger? 

Ed: Well, you really hit a great nerve there that,we, as Christians, we’ve got a criteria to live up to we’re spirit-filled and we’re supposed to be having the fruits of the spirit and to represent Christ on the earth.

And so we’re not supposed to have any flaws or any, setbacks. So I know I did, I suppose. I didn’t want anybody to know. I was an angry person that I was this crazy raging dude that would put my fist through a window or a door or wall or whatever. And that was really part of my problem. I never let anybody know I was in trouble.

And so for years I went through all of this and only to realize that in my journey to manage this. You do not get rid of anger. Anger is an emotion. It’s a part of your psychic. It’s just like love and, and joy and happiness and all of that. It’s identified as a negative emotion, although that could be turned around into a positive direction.

Using your anger to force you to go positive. However, the understanding and in fact, I’m big on the power of understanding when we understand the who, the, why, the what, how come, where they’re coming from, where it’s coming from. It helps us deal with a lot of things. It’s okay to be angry. It’s okay. Jesus was angry when he come into the temple and found the money changed.

Buying and selling. He got angry and drove out those money changers and said, my, my house will be called a house of prayer. So again, it’s okay to be angry. The Bible says be angry, but sin not. And there’s, there’s the key, right? We can get upset. We can be angry with some situation, but here’s where we need to be.

Careful. Don’t send that it don’t start violating. Somebody’s cussing using foul language or whatever. That’s going to bring a reproach on your walk with God. People’s understands that if somebody disrespects you, it can upset you. People understand that whatever happens, it upsets us. It angers us. There’s an injustice going on.

For example, one of my friends on Twitter posted out that this kid, a young man and in Montana, him and his family, his mom and dad are church planters. And they’re trying to plant a new church in Montana. And this is a good kid when school bullied and the group that bullied him. Stabbed him 10 times and put him in there and, you know, I cared, I was angry.

I wanted to fly to Montana and find the bullies, but I, okay. God, I can’t bring bodily harm, although I want to, but you know, it’s okay. That’s what we’ve really got to understand. It’s okay. To be angry. It’s what you do with the anger. That makes all the difference in the world.

Carrie: Absolutely. I think that anger can be very powerful in terms of creating beautiful change in the world. Like what if we never got angry about things like human trafficking or child abuse? I mean, we should be angry about those things that are going on in our society and. I know that there was some anger for me that fueled the start of this podcast.

Cause I got so tired of having people say, well, somebody told me anxiety is a sin or depression’s a sin. That means I don’t have enough joy in my life and I just need to pray. Through it. And, you know, it was just so frustrating that people were getting misinformation that wasn’t biblical from spiritual leaders and it was causing extra distress on the distress that they already had, that they were already bringing into therapy.

Ed:Have you got a minute? Let me tell a little quick little neat story about how anger compelled us to, to do a positive bank like yourself, fired of spiritual leaders, basically not bothering to study out or research. Anxiety. It’s not a sin. Anyway, years ago, I learned this story when I was doing some research of a beautiful family in suburban LA.

Nice suburban LA had a 13 year old daughter and daughter asked mom, can I go to whoever’s there? Her friend had just a few blocks over in a very nice suburban. And of course, sure. Not a problem. So only about two or three hours later, LAPD shows up on this lady story. To tell her that her child, her 13 year old is dead, been killed by a drunken driver in, in the neighborhood, in the suburban area.

Of course, that went through it. They caught the guy and the guy got a little bit of probation and 30 days in jail, it was, wow. This guy killed this girl and got off way too easy. And so this woman in the story that I read had a choice, she was very angry. 

That her daughter walked out the door and she never got a chance to say goodbye.

You know,  she’s never coming back. She was in a very safe, nice neighborhood in suburban LA and her life was taken by a drunken driver, cutting through the subdivision to go somewhere swerved. She was on the sidewalk and the dude swerved up onto the sidewalk and hit her. She had a choice to make, whether she was going to allow that anger to make her bitter probably ruin her marriage and relationships to other children.

However, she chose to allow the anger to drive her to a positive direction and make a difference. Her name is candy and she created mothers against drunk drivers and has literally changed the world. And when it comes to DUIs, the laws have changed the punishment stiffer. They get what they deserve because one woman said, I’m not going to let this destroy me.

I’m going to create something good out of my anchor. 

Carrie: Absolutely.

Ed: Hopefully little encouragement to your audience. 

Carrie: That’s good. Oftentimes we hear people say anger is a secondary emotion, meaning there’s some other emotion underneath it. Tell us about the connection between anger and anxiety. 

Ed: Sure. And, and that is correct.

Anger is always a secondary emotion. It’s a, by-product, there’s always a primary in place, such as loneliness, anxiety in other word, fear, the big kahunas is stress and frustration. When we don’t manage those primaries, then they escalate to anger. Then if it’s not taken care of escalates to rage, rage goes to blind rage.

I had a client years ago that I dealt with that went into blind rage and literally. $5,000 worth of damage to his mother’s kitchen and denied it. He said, I didn’t do that. There’s no way I did that. He was in blind rage. He didn’t even know what he was doing so it can get ugly real fast. But again, let’s back up.

We have anxiety now of course. Anxiety is a lot like, or it has one common thread with the other primaries. We all have stress in our life, the stress of driving in traffic every day to work stress in handling family situations. It’s okay. And we all have frustration in our life. We all have a little bit of anxiety in our life.

A little bit of worry, a little bit of stress. You know, we’ve got something major coming up, whether it’s a certification test or whether it is a presentation that we got to make it work, or we’ve got to deal something with our children, we all have what we would call normal stress, normal frustration, and even normal anxiety.

The challenge comes is when. It doesn’t become normal anymore. We’re stressed out more than we usually are. We’re frustrated more than we usually are. We’re experiencing anxiety more than we usually do. So is the fears and the worries becomes extreme. It becomes excessive. And that right there.

The connection is, is when we don’t deal with frustration or stress or anxiety, we start getting angry because we don’t like the emotion. We don’t like to feel stressed out. We don’t like to feel frustrated. We don’t like to feel the fear, the intense fear, what’s wrong with me? Why am I feeling so afraid?

Why am I worrying so much about this thing? This ain’t that big a deal? And everybody’s saying I’ll just calm down. You’ll be fine.No, I’m not fine. So as you can see, anxiety really kind of ties into the frustration that primary. And of course, if we don’t get something to relieve it, then it’s going to escalate to anger and we’re going to start being mad at ourselves.

We’re going to be angry at other people trying to give us. And they mean, well, they’re trying to help us, but they’re not helping. Then we start getting angry with that. And everything kind of blows up from there. Does that make sense?

Carrie: Yeah. I mean, it’s like a domino reaction, you know, if you don’t back up and deal with the, the initial dominoes that cause the cascade to go, then you’re not going to be able to resolve the issue.

Whereas I think sometimes people in. Anger management situations. We’ll just say, okay, well, I’ve just got to catch myself before I get to that rage point, but they don’t ever deal with those emotions that come before the anger point, which came before the rage.

Ed: Yes. Ma’am. That is exactly right. Again, it’s a.

It’s a cascade. It’s just, it starts falling and you know, we’ve got to stop it somewhere. We’ve got to say, okay, wait a minute. Stop right now. 

Carrie: Yes. 

Ed: Absolutely. 

Carrie: Probably the worst thing that you could do for an anxious or angry person is to tell them to calm down that does not usually help at all. Usually causes more frustration or anxiety.

Ed: Yeah.Do you remember years ago? The movie that came out with Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson, anger management, 

Carrie: I’m not sure if I saw that one. 

Ed: Go back and dig it up. It’s a great movie. And of course it’s a movie, Adam Sandler. I think he got thrown off a plane because he was angry. I’m not angry.

Nicholson is the therapist that’s going to help him overcome his anger. Everything wrong in getting the character that Adam Sandler is playing a good friend of mine in LA was the consultant for anger management. And it was kind of knowing anger management. And Jack Nicholson was always saying, you need to just calm down.

Okay. Just calm down. And, and then, the character that, um, Adam Sandler’s playing, it just goes through the roof. It was hilarious, but you’re right. When you say to an angry person or to an anxious person, just calm down, you’re throwing fuel on the phone. 

Carrie: Right. So tell us about your book control the beast.

Ed: Oh boy. That was fun. As we’ve gone through this podcast, I’ve totaled bits and pieces of my story. The control of the beast is a book that we have just put out on the market. That is really, for me, it’s 40 plus years in the making because I was, angry kid, young adult, and then Gail and I started when we got married on our journey of trial and error, trying to help me get rid of anger.

We realized I’m not going to get rid of it. I’ve got around a manage. It just like anxiety. You don’t get rid of anxiety, you manage your anxiety. And that’s what you do with anger. As you learn how to manage your anger, how to identify and diffuse. So the book is based on a 17 years of training. I still do training of sharing this because my whole mission and purpose, I felt like God wanted me to give back.

I was this person I managed, I’ve gotten better. And now I need to give back. So, as we talked about earlier, when books and things started coming out, I started ingesting everything. When I did find some kind of training seminar workshop on anger, I took it. And then when certification classes actually came out.

I did it and became certified and then just started teaching. We taught with probation and parole court services. Several chambers of commerce have brought me in for lunch and learns companies, brought me in for identifying and diffusing, angry people, working with their management, et cetera, et cetera.

So control the beast is what is that? 12 chapters. And we’d start out with the power of understanding or discovering the beast. When we understand who we are, what’s going on, what’s our past and everybody around us, again, the power of understanding helps us deal with it. Then chapter two is starve the beast.

We’ve got to clean up our environment, there’s triggers. And I end the book I talked and I also taught it. There’s six main triggers. That exists, that that’s the six popular ones starting out one with pornography, the addiction to pornography, television programming, what we’re listening to music, what we’re reading all could be triggers of anger.

I imagine in your field of dealing with anxiety, that could be, there could be some crossover there. So we talk about the importance of cleaning up our environment. Then it’s not really a book about anger management, as much as it is. Yeah, guide a manual. Uh, how to, I felt like people needed, okay, how do I do this?

Because when I started I’m like, what do I do? How do I handle this? And so I wanted to develop a guide, a manual to say, okay, read this and start following it. And practicing it and you can get your anger under control. So with that, we talk about how the beast works. And of course the beast is our negative emotions and that is emotional mechanics that how does emotions fire, what triggers them?

The biology of emotions. And then Mr. Beasties game, that’s the blame and responsibility we always get in the blame game. Well, I wouldn’t get angry if they would keep their stupid mouth shut, things like that. And so you cannot go into the blame game and blame everybody and everything around you for your bad behavior, you got to own it.

You got to take responsibility. Chapter five is the TMZ of the beast world, and that is the emotion, anger, and emotion unveil. We rip the lid off of it. And we expose the beast for who it is, what it is. And then chapter six is kind of the pinnacle where we don’t play games with the beast and that’s diffusing negative emotions.

That’s the tools, the mechanisms that we can use to help like walk away, breathe, intellectualize the situation, get help, things like that. The beast. Is ambushes and disguises where it hides such as a drug addiction and alcoholism attempts at suicide. People are angry at people around them. Like teenagers will attempt suicide because they’re very angry with their parents and they want to inflict pain upon them.

And so we discover, we talk about the ambushes and the disguises that the beast does time to confront the beast. That’s the answer to the question of self-identity who are. Where are we, it takes a team to control the beast. And that, that is a chapter on vital relationships. I wrote a piece and I taught it and I put it in the book called nine levels of relationships and how to handle toxic relationships.

So many times we get confused with the levels of relationships we have. For example, we have an acquaintance that we don’t really know, but we want to make them a best friend. What can they be trusted with best friend status. Or we have a best friend that violates our trust. We can’t keep them there. They have to move to a different category.

You know, spousal relationship. Of course, the number one relationship that I talk about nine levels is our relationship to God. That’s gotta be strong. That’s gotta be powerful. And then of course, we work our way down to level nine, which is the toxic poisonous relationship. That we’ve got to deal with because the only thing happens when you mess with a toxic relationship is that you get poisoned, you get hurt over and over and over, and you’ve got to get rid of that relationship.

Not to say that it won’t heal not to say that you can’t detox that relationship and put it back up into one of the other levels of relationships. That’s good chapter. I just did two or three podcasts on that chapter alone. Rebuild what the, these destroyed is rebuilding our self-esteem. From our past, the shame that anger brings negative emotions bring.

And of course, then chapter 12, we talk about train the beast and that’s revitalizing the positive inner person. 

Carrie: Okay. Wow. There’s a lot in there. It sounds like. 

Ed: Yeah. Packed it with some meat. 

Carrie: And sounds like very practical information, certainly takeaways that people can implement in their life and step-by-step instructions on how to do that.

I like that. I like practical materials. I don’t philosophical ones are nice, but if you don’t know how to apply it, then sometimes it’s completely worthless. If you can’t put it into practice in your own life, then it’s like, well, what’s the point there? So. 

Ed: That’s right. And of course we want to say to God, be the glory for all of this.

We are getting a lot of great feedback. When people read the book, they’re hitting me on Instagram or Twitter. Hey, I just got your book, man. This is fantastic. And they use the word practical, which I’m like, yes, yes.So that’s good. 

Carrie: Well, I think it’s just beautiful that you have used your.

Difficulties and struggles and challenges to allow God to use those things for good and then to bless other people and help them along their journey. So as we’re kind of wrapping up our time together, I like to ask every guest to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person.

Ed: Wow. Let me go. And we’re going to talk about probably a lot of anxiety that I experienced in my life with everything else. That’s going on. Somebody being bullied like I was, or you’ve got somebody in your life that is, they may not physically be bullying. You beating you up physically, but they’re beating you up emotionally and make you feel small, making you feel.

Insufficient. It really messes with my emotions and kind of makes my eyes water a little bit. When I think about the kid ed Snyder, and I knew me, I just love everybody.  I just wanted to get along with everybody and everybody’s making fun of me and tormenting me and all of that stuff. And it literally, Carrie destroyed my,self-esteem.

I couldn’t see my way up. And if it was. For God, putting somebody in my life that I called mother where every day I come home from school, after going through a day of it’s supposed to be a day of learning, which was a day of abuse. She was there telling me, Hey, you don’t need those people. You can do anything you set your mind to do.

God’s got great things for you and your life. He’s got stuff in you that you’re going to do great with.She was constantly just hitting me with that and it really was a saving point in my life. I don’t know where I would be if it wasn’t for the time that God used my own mother. To tell me you don’t listen to them.

You’re better than that. You’re a good kid, et cetera, et cetera. And so, as I grew, God just kept putting people in my life. One being my wife we’re together. I mean, we’re, peanut butter and jelly. I mean, we just, and of course she knows. And that’s what I think everybody needs in their life as somebody that knows them inside and out.

And she knows when to back off of me, she knows when to get in my face and wad up that Iris face or hers and get, straight. And I take it because I know she loves me. And so it’s amazing how God puts people in your life. That will help you. They’re there to be a blessing to you to build you up. And of course, again, I don’t want to take anything away from God, but God uses people.

God uses work, have your faith. God can do anything. He is everything. But sometimes he uses the hands and the voices of people to make that. And of course we’re responsible for putting in the work. Faith without works is dead. I went to the altar and I prayed after my pastor preach the message and I cried and I wanted God to heal me of this and get rid of it.

I don’t want to be like this anymore. And I get up in a day or two later, I’m back at it again. I had to figure out the work, what do I need to do myself? To partner with God’s power and prayer to make it happen. Maybe that’s what I need to help. So a listener of yours and your audience, whether you’re dealing with anxiety or you’re dealing with stress or frustration, or even anger, God’s putting people in your life, this podcast, perhaps get back to this podcast and get the help that you need so that you can put the work with your faith.

And God’s going to do great things in your life. 

Carrie: That’s great. So we’re going to put links in the show notes to the book and to your website so that people can reach you. And this has been a great conversation and I think really valuable for our audience. I appreciate you being here today. 

Ed: Well, if there’s anything I can do for you or any of your listeners, please reach out to me.

Our emails on the website can hit me up on social media, whatever it is, but thank you again, Carrie, for the opportunity. And the privilege of being on your podcast, I’ve enjoyed being with you. 

Carrie: You can find us online any time@hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I would love to hear from you. You can head on over to the contact page and let me know what you think about these episodes.

Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

41. Writing the Christian Book about Anxiety She Wanted to Read with Tiffany Ciccone

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 41. Writing the Christian Book about Anxiety She Wanted to Read with Tiffany Ciccone

Today on the show,  we are privileged to hear Tiffany Ciccone’s journey through anxiety. Tiffany is an English teacher and a writer.  She has been struggling with an anxiety disorder since she was a child. 

  • Symptoms of her anxiety disorder that continued into her adulthood
  • Growing up in a church where she would hear sermons like anxiety and depression are a sin
  • Having a hard time connecting with God and finding a new church where she could freely talk about her disorder
  • Started writing a book as part of her healing process
  • Her husband’s role in seeking professional help for her
  • Encouragement or hope Tiffany would provide to her younger self

Links and Resources:

Tiffany Ciccone

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Transcript of Episode 41

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 41. On today’s show. I am talking with Tiffany Ciccone who is an English teacher and also working on writing a book about her anxiety.

Carrie: Tiffany, welcome to the show. I’m so glad that you’re going to talk with us about some of your personal experiences and your book writing process.

Tiffany: Thank you, Carrie. I’m happy to be here and have this opportunity. 

Carrie:  We actually met on social media through Instagram because you’re in the process of writing this book about your personal story with anxiety. And so I’m curious what that process has been like for you just like opening up and sharing your story.

Tiffany: Sure. So it started a long time ago, basically, when I was first diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. I did what we would all do. And I went home and Googled. I just Googled it hard. And there was a lot I found about what is generalized anxiety disorder and what are the symptoms, but there’s a whole part of me that wasn’t addressed anywhere online.

I couldn’t find it anywhere. It was back in 2006.  It was kind of early on with the whole mental health awareness thing. And there were no Christians talking about generalized anxiety disorder. There were Christians talking about, “Oh, don’t worry. Trust God. He takes care of the sparrows, he’ll take care of you,’ and all that good stuff. But, you know, I grew up in the church and I already knew that stuff. That wasn’t what my problem was. And I just felt so alone. There was nobody talking about and describing what I was going through. And so that night when I was on my laptop, looking for people I could relate to.

I think that’s the moment the book was conceived because I came across this quote by Tony Morrison and she says, if you can’t find the book you want to read, then you need to write it. 

Carrie: And that’s so good. 

Tiffany: So that was what I had to do. And it was like 10 years until I started writing it because there was a lot I had to go through.

A lot of healing that took place. And I didn’t know in that moment that I was going to write a book. Since then it’s been a ride. So I’m an English teacher and 10 years into teaching my husband and I moved from the bay area to San Diego. And that cleared up some time for me. And I started writing. I just started blogging because, well, if I want to write, I can, nothing’s stopping me. So I started a blog and I noticed that all of my content started to kind of focus around one topic and that was the intersection of anxiety and my faith. So I kind of decided, you know what? this topic is really new one. It’s really deep and it deserves its own book. So I stepped away from the blog and I started outlining a book and it’s been a challenging, worthwhile process. And it’s been a few years now kind of working through it and I have a manuscript now.  It’s over a hundred pages and I met kind of a fun point where it’s like a jigsaw puzzle.

I’m trying to see kind of how these different pieces I wrote fit together. And I’m hoping and praying that it can help people kind of in that moment where I found myself where who can relate to this. Who’s been here before, who can tell me what to do and give me the encouragement that I need. I’m hoping and praying that this book can be that for people in their early diagnosis or maybe long into their diagnosis. And they just want to read someone’s story who read, whose resonates with theirs. 

Carrie: Yeah, I would absolutely agree with you just from my own searches of who is speaking into this space about having a clinical level of anxiety, not just an anxiety that everybody faces on a day-to-day basis. Because everybody goes through some level of anxiety at some point or another in their life, but when you’re talking about things like I don’t know if this is part of your story, but when you’re talking about dealing with things like panic attacks or just intense episodes of anxiety, not being able to shut off the worries, It’s just a whole different level and a lot of times people in the church will kind of approach it like it’s just kind of, oh, it’s every day, like normal anxiety, like I deal with and not really realizing no, it’s really a little bit more complex than that. So some of the things that might be helpful. day-to-day worries. Anxieties fears are not going to be necessarily the same things that are going to be helpful for generalized anxiety disorder.

And I think kind of you, and I probably share some similarities in that we want to get this message out there and haven’t seen people who are talking about it and it’s kind of part of what’s propelled his podcast too. So it’s really great to have you on to talk about this. So tell us a little bit about in terms of your symptoms like when did you first start to experience anxiety, even if you didn’t know that’s what it was called.

Tiffany: I think the first kind of manifestation in my childhood, I had a lot of health anxiety. Back then we called it hypochondria, but I was just writing about it the other day. It would be like the craziest littlest things like a bump on my shin. And I would go crying to my dad that I have a tumor in my shin. When I Found split ends, I was in third grade, I think on a trip with my grandparents and the trip was great until I saw the split in. And I just knew like this is cancer, like, what else could this possibly be? And when I came home, I just felt the weight of the world.

As I had to tell my parents that their oldest daughter’s dying and I wasn’t afraid of the death part. I was like really afraid of ruining my parents’ lives of bringing them all this sorrow and grief and through like a medical nightmare and that kind of incident just repeated itself throughout probably when I was like 20. I kind of like eased up and stopped.

I was really blessed that my dad gave me extra reassurance. And some of the logical things that he talked me through when I would freak out God kind of embedded in me. 

Carrie: So you can start to challenge. 

Tiffany: Yeah. He didn’t know it, but he was teaching me like a part of cognitive-behavioural therapy and giving me good ways to challenge those thoughts.

Also, I recently read on, I think it was the national Institute for mental health that children who are really shy, that can be one indicator later on. Maybe there will be an anxiety disorder. I was a super shy kid. I was put in a study of an experimental playgroup were super shy kids and overly aggressive kids were combined.

Carrie: Oh no, that sounds awful.Who thought of that one.

Tiffany: I know. Great opportunity for bullying. I don’t know if it really worked with me, but it wasn’t horrible. The toys were great. And I don’t remember anyone beating me up. So I don’t think I was healed by it. That’s just like how shy I was.  I remember also some perfectionism like I wouldn’t know the answer to a question or I’d be confused in class and there’s one time a computer class where the teacher kept saying to push return and he’s like, I don’t know what return is. What’s return. Oh my gosh. I ended up bursting out crying, like hysterically crying. I can see moments like that where it’s just like, that’s, doesn’t seem quite normal. I can see anxiety there. And then in my adolescence, a few symptoms took me to my doc. And those are symptoms of anxiety, muscle tension. I had really tight back muscles. He had to give me shots in my back to loosen them up. I went to him because my hands were tingling and I thought I had diabetes because of my health anxiety. And it was because I was hyperventilating and I didn’t believe him. So he had me breathe into a paper bag and I’m like, okOkay. And then I, as a teenager, had perfectionism in the context of relationships. I would be crying late in the day because I said something to someone and I thought it would have hurt them or something. And then in college, I over-thought a lot. And I felt the weight of the world on my shoulders with a lot of things.

So really like I do see a lot of pieces of it growing up. 

Carrie: Yeah. It seems like you were a shy, but also like very conscientious child of like trying to please everyone and making sure they’re happy. And then that pressure that it doesn’t necessarily have to be pressure that other people put on you, you can put it on yourself, like, oh, I’ve got to do a good job, or I’ve got to be perfect at this. And then when it doesn’t happen like you don’t know how to respond in the school scenario that just creates so much anxiety. Makes a lot of sense. How old were you when you were actually diagnosed? 

Tiffany: I was 23. 

Carrie:  Wow. So you had been dealing with it for years, really before you got a formal diagnosis, even with everything you went through with the doctor in high school and stuff, they weren’t able to identify and pinpoint.

That’s interesting. So what was that process for you like of getting help for? 

Tiffany: Well, the awareness was at like zero. I had grown up at a church where it was an evangelical free church with a great youth group, but I never forget the most memorable sermon I’ve sat through our head pastors said that anxiety is a sin.

Depression is a sin. There’s spiritual problems that needs spiritual solutions. You need more faith. That kind of a thing. And I was probably 20 when I heard it and it struck me as wrong then because I knew people who were depressed or who struggled with rage and who had traumatic past.

And I’m sure it was harsh. So I grew up in that kind of context. And at the same time, I had a strong faith myself. I’d been on mission trips. I’ve learned to trust God. I’ve learned to be flexible. I grew up with this understanding the anxiety is for when you’re not trusting God with things that are beyond your control. Whereas my problem was I was freaking out about what was under my control. That was my anxiety, that I was going to screw up what’s on mine.  I couldn’t see it. I actually ran into like one of my best friend’s moms back when just before I was diagnosed and I was losing my functionality, basically I ran into her at a grocery store and we chatted for a moment.

She was actually also a trained biblical counselor at church. So I ran to the supermarket. We chatted, I was super anxious at the time because it was hard for me to choose groceries because of my indecision. And she called me later that evening. She’d never called me before, my friend’s mom and she wanted to check in because she said it seemed like something was off, like what’s going on? Are you okay? And I didn’t have much of an explanation for her. And I think she was probably hoping for some breakthroughs, some spiritual something or other, and, you know, I just kind of told her my life circumstances and, and I didn’t have words for the anxiety part because it hadn’t been addressed yet and she couldn’t identify it.

So that just goes to show the level of unawareness that was present in kind of the Christian culture I was in. So I mentioned I was losing functionality, so my saving grace that brought me to a therapist was my husband at the time we were just dating and he got a front center road look at my life and how I was doing emotionally and mentally. And he saw me break down at target over like what toothpastes to buy. He saw me break down at church and I had no clue why I was hysterically crying and he’s like, honey, what’s wrong? And I’m like, “oh no, what’s wrong with me.” And he just hugged me. And he said I think you should see someone. And I was like, oh, you mean like a therapist?

And he’s like, “yes.” And it gave me permission to seek help.  It gave me a direction to go in it. It wasn’t like, oh, I’m so offended because you’re saying I need professional help. Like, that’s what I needed. And also at that time, I was in my first year of teaching, which is known to be a disaster, like regardless of how mentally healthy you are, that’s supposed to challenge your menta health.

And so I also had this disorder where I overthought every decision I was making in the classroom. So the kid’s behavior was a disaster and I was just getting like psychological beat downs all the time. So it was the hardest year of my life. I also developed a jaw disorder. It goes hand in hand with the muscle tension that we see with generalized anxiety disorder.

So I was like drinking these awful like lukewarm smoothies at lunch in school. Not just like food from clenching, like, 

Carrie: Was that from clenching your jaw, like out of anxiety or? 

Tiffany: Yeah, it was from clenching and they said a malocclusion. So my teeth just didn’t fit together. So I’d have to like shift my jaw to get my teeth ticket fit together right. And my jaw had clicked since I was a senior in high school, but my dentist didn’t really give me any guidance from there. And so basically by the time I graduated college, it was really, really painful. I went to specialists in San Francisco got physical therapy. I still see a physical therapist from time to time.

So it was just kind of this convergence of all of these really stressful things and got to mention, I was also earning my master’s degree, blond distance through my credential program. So all of that, like it just broke me and I actually knew a couple other people in my credential, in my master’s program who also dropped out because they couldn’t handle it. I don’t know if they were having mental breaks like I was, but I just got to the point where I was kind of barely functional. 

Carrie: Yeah. I think that you bring up a good point, cause it’s one thing to be aware of your symptoms. And it’s another thing to then be able to turn around and communicate those.

Like, sometimes all you can say is I just feel like a mess or I don’t feel well or I’m miserable and I don’t know why. Sometimes until you get around a therapist or a doctor,  asked you very specific questions like, what’s your sleep? what you’re eating? How do your muscles field you experienced this or that?

And then you’re better able to tease out and communicate some of those symptoms. I know, just from being a counselor and working with a lot of people with anxiety, sometimes people say things like, I just, I don’t feel well. And I’m anxious. I don’t feel good. I just want to feel better. And it’s really just being able to tease some of those things out to figure out what people’s symptoms are and what they actually need like where’s our starting point here. 

Tiffany: Yeah. That was very much my…that describes what it was like for me. And, I recently heard of the term free floating anxiety and I certainly had that where it just stuck around. Yeah. And I didn’t know what it was or what to do with it. I just knew that my breathing feels funny. I know I can’t concentrate anymore, but I had no idea why. 

Carrie: So you talked a little bit in terms of like how responses were in the church you were just hearing. Okay. Well, pretty much it’s your fault. You’re not trusting God in some way, or this is a spiritual issue that you need help for. How did you resolve some of those messages and turn them from like unhealthy messages, which is what I believe those are into something healthier and kind of make some resolution or peace with your faith.

Tiffany: That’s a great question. And it’s a really complicated, layered answer, I think pencil book. So we’ll see what words I can think of right now. Therapy really helped. And she wasn’t a Christian therapy, but she was a good therapist who knew how to take my religious beliefs and work with them.

And I was warned in a large sense that my church, I was warned against secular therapy. I was warned against medication. You know, like the Bible only is all we need. Why would you let the world. Like help you in the way that God can help you through the Bible. But like, this was different.

It was clinical. Like he said earlier, you know, it’s, it’s not a spiritual issue of trusting God. It had a much more profound, complicated effect on my relationship with God, actually. So my therapist helped me turn that around. I saw her for two years at the end of my first year, I went on medication as well.

She worked with my doctor. So a little bit also if my kind of getting health story, I started with my doctor, I made an appointment and I told him how I was feeling. I was like crying myself to sleep. And part of that was just sheer loneliness, especially before I met my husband. And I shouldn’t say shared loneliness.

It was a convergence of everything. Thankfully he didn’t just write me a prescription. Referred me to three cognitive behavioral therapist. He said, you know, the research shows, this is the most effective treatment. Here’s three good ones I know of. And this is the same doctor that I grew up with actually who didn’t catch the isolated symptoms.

But when I told him I kinda saw the wheels turning in his head, he was like, oh, you always have been pretty hyper.

And we had this thing where my blood pressure was always elevated at the doctor’s office because of my health anxiety. So like, yeah, he, and just the, my mannerisms, I suppose. So he led me to my therapist. So then a year into therapy, I had learned cognitive behavioral journaling, and that was a huge help because I’d always been a journaler.

And that was a huge coping mechanism for me before I was diagnosed. I can look back at my journals, like in high school and I see that I’m coming to my journal to seek what the heck is happening in my head. I’m like, I’m feeling this way. Why God? And then I kind of dialogue with God through prayer in my journal and do some sort of similar thing to cognitive behavioral therapy.

And so when I learned the formal structure that really helped me. And when I learned cognitive distortions and I learned to identify what thought was, what cognitive distortion and then how to deal with those distortions. There was a lot of healing there, but then the triggers kept popping up. So I’d like have an anxious thought deal with it.

30 minutes later, it’s back, but a different topic. And so I deal with that 30 minutes later, I feel it again. And so that’s when my therapist called my doctor. And he started me on medication. And then that medication journey started. I’m still on it today. I’ve been on various ones over time.

It gives me a strong baseline to work from, and it makes the incidents much fewer. I don’t have a pop-up as frequently. So those things. Ironically, the things that my church had warned me against are the things that helped me see more clearly what was happening to me and brought me back to truth because when my anxiety got under control, I was able to see God more clearly along with everything else.

And I was able to concentrate in prayer again and before I was so confused as to why I couldn’t connect with God like I used to, and I thought it was a sin issue. I heard Christian say before that Christians would mention this feeling of I feel convicted of sin and I’d always, I’d always thought like, what is that like” I don’t really feel that. And so then when I had these new feelings of anxiety, I’m like, oh my gosh, this must be conviction of sin. What’s wrong. And I would search my heart. I would do all the right things to try and find answers with God. And I would come up with nothing. I was stuck and then not just exacerbated things and kept the cycle going of this scrupulosity to use a new word that I recently learned. My obsessing over pleasing God, my obsessing over I don’t want to be a failure to God. And I felt like his little failure. I obsessed about what is the will of God. 

And then when I moved to San Diego, I mentioned the move. I started a new church. stopped going to that other church. I didn’t keep going and going.

The other churches in between, you know, we went to my husband’s a little while and you know, they were okay. Nothing major either way, but I didn’t open up about my anxiety because all I had known was that people are not going to understand the church’s definition of anxiety is totally different from my experience of it.

They should have different words in my opinion. So when I moved down to San Diego, this new church. The second sermon I heard there, there was a couple on stage and they’re giving their testimony and it involved infidelity. And my husband and I were sitting there, like with our mouths wide open and I was like, oh my gosh, like, okay, if they can talk about this here from the stage, I can talk about my anxiety.

Carrie: Wow. So freeing.

Tiffany:  And by that time I was 10 years into this journey with anxiety. And I had actually gone into a remission at a point where my anxiety was under control. It was minimal. And I remember one of the things my therapist told me when she graduated me at the end of my two years. She said, don’t be surprised if this comes back during a major life transition.

You know, like if you have a baby, if you move and sure enough, I quit my job of 11 years in the bay area, quit the ministry I was involved with, moved down to San Diego and I was unemployed for awhile. That was my big trigger. And my anxiety came back with new manifestations too.

It was far more physical than before, far less of the thoughts.  It was harder for me to cope because it was harder to find the thoughts underneath the physical symptoms. And I had just like happened. I was like, you know, I’ve done this before. I’ve been here. I’ve been through the therapy. I’ve been through this stigma, whatever, I’m done, I’m talking about it.

And so I started more writing about it more freely. I just put it all on paper. I would talk about it. And my church really embraced that and I could give you great examples of it if we have time for it if you want to take it in that direction. 

Carrie: It seems like hearing somebody else’s story that totally freed you up and reduce shame and stigma to allow you to share your story.

And then I’m sure like you sharing your story has blessed someone else in the church who thought, oh gosh, I just thought I was sitting here. And I was the only one going through anxiety because I do think that that happens a lot in church unfortunately, if we don’t open up and we don’t talk about these things, or we don’t say… I look at my clients who talk about their therapy openly to other people. And oftentimes that will free someone up in their life to get therapy because then their friend or family member, whoever will go, oh, you’re getting therapy. Like, I guess it’s okay. Then, it’s that whole reducing the stigma and just kind of making it more of a normal process that, that it’s okay to go through. That’s awesome. 

And I love what you said too earlier about how it’s almost like anxiety was this cloud in between you and your relationship with God where you had a hard time seeing God clearly or connecting with him because this was in the way. And I really believe that as we’re able to work through some of those things, so we have a clear picture of who God is, of how much he loves us, so that, you know, he’s for us. And it just changes things a lot in terms of that positive connection with God. 

Tiffany: Yeah. I kind of felt in one of those moments, I felt like the prayer where the, I forget who it was, but a man in the Bibles tells Jesus, you know, I believe help my unbelief.  In those moments where the anxiety was heavy. It’s like, God, I, yeah, I know these things deep in my gut, but they’re not true in my, yeah.

I can’t grasp them rationally and I don’t know why or how, and, and God was definitely good and that he did help me brought me to that therapist and brought me on this huge journey since then. 

Carrie: So what I used to do on my show, I’d have guests on and I’d say, okay, now tell me a story of hope, you know, sometime where you receive hope from God.

And then I started doing more of these personal stories and just in a really make sense, because your whole story is hopeful, right? So I decided that this go-around of recordings. I’m going to shift the question, the kind of, some of our closing question a little bit. So your closing question is if you could go back in time, what encouragement or hope would you provide to your younger self?

Tiffany: This is a great question. And I gave her a bit of thought and I kind of came up with like everything I needed, like basically to my younger self. If I’m going to look at this, literally. I wouldn’t give myself any extra encouragement or hope where I went because God gave me what I needed when I needed it through people, through things like this podcast.

And I wouldn’t change that journey painful as it was because God is a beautiful artist, but there are things, I decided what I wanted to share was what I wanted to hear that night when I realized nobody understood, nobody was talking about what I was going through. So if I could, I think I just closed by reading a piece. I have a writing coach and he challenged me if I only had 15 minutes and don’t worry, this isn’t 15 minutes of reading. If I only had 15 minutes with the people who I’m writing for, what would I tell them? So I’m just gonna read that if that’s okay. So this is, I feel like what I needed to hear.

We have been told that as Christians, we shouldn’t be anxious or depressed. This makes us feel like crap because anxiety and depressive disorders don’t really give us. Scriptures like be anxious for nothing and rejoice the Lord always are directed and fired at us by church leaders, Christian authors, and friends and family who like to tack on offhand remarks and platitudes.

When I’m anxious, be anxious for nothing just makes me feel like that much more of a failure. They don’t understand the desperate darkness we’re dealing with or what it stems from. They expect us to be able to remove the very thorns that God alone can remove. Because the experience is limited and because they’d forget to listen, they assume that depressive disorders are the same as their own struggle with discontentment and they assume that anxiety disorders are the same as their own struggle to trust God with the present and future.

Infact, I consider it a misnomer to use the word anxiety for both their spiritual struggles and our visceral psychological disorders. I know it’s cheesy, but it might help a little bit to refer to the clinical stuff is thorny, after the thorn that the apostle Paul was inflicted with. That’s how I think we need to understand our disorders.

See if Paul’sexperience resonates with yours. And then this is second Corinthians 12 seven. A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited three times. I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me, but he said to me, my grace is sufficient for you.

For my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest upon me for the sake of Christ then I am content with weakness, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong like Paul and his thorn, none of us asked for our disorders. They harassed. They keep us from being conceded, from thinking rationally and from being generally functional, they keep us weak and in the presence of tears and the collapsing and the haze and the stigma in the midst of it all, we find that his grace is sufficient.

This is the real gospel, the gospel of weakness. The mistaken American church preaches a gospel of strength self-sufficiency and name it and claim it success in healing. In short, it’s kind of like the pharisees. No wonder it is obsessed with removing thorns with all its books and sermons about overcoming anxiety and depression.

It is forgotten Jesus’s words, “Blessed are the weak in spirit.” It is forgotten that our king was a man of sorrows. Well acquainted with grief. It is forgotten how the heart of God grieves the fall of his beloved mankind is forgotten the, in our very nature, we are all weak. It is distant from the truth and its source. In this ironic sense we are blessed. Our thorns remind us that we need rescue. They keep us tethered to our savior and the source of truth. I need to be rescued regularly from the adrenaline that just shoots on for no reason when my prefrontal cortex shuts down, I need to be rescued when my mind turns on me in a thick fog sets in over the truth.

Over the years, these words of CS Lewis have given me great comfort. They have done the rare thing of understand me as a person of faith with an anxiety disorder. If you are a poor preacher poisoned by a wretched upbringing in some house full of vulgar jealousies and senseless corals saddled by no choice of your own.

With some loads, some sexual perversion, parenthetically I put were bipolar disorders, schizophrenia or panic disorder, or any of those nagged day in and out by an inferiority complex that makes you snap at your best friends. Do not despair. He knows all about it. You are one of the poor whom he blessed. He knows what a wretched machine you were trying to drive. Keep on, do what you can one day, perhaps in another world, but perhaps far sooner than that, he will fling it on the scrap heap and give you a new one. And then you may astonished us all, not least yourself for you have learned. You’re driving in a hard school. The church’s obsession with curing anxiety and depression.

I was controlled. What if Paul came across a book called remove your thorn or pray your thorn away or choose Christ, not your thorn. Would Paul feel like a failure? Would he wonder what am I doing wrong? But he was obsessive, he searched for some horrible sin. That must be preventing his thorn removed. What would it cause him to spiral?

Like I do. I’ll never know the anxiety of guest 70. It’s a good thing that Paul’s thorn wasn’t removed. I have no more ability to cure my anxiety than Paul was able to remove his own thorn. And also like Paul, it doesn’t mean I don’t try. I’m surprised. He only asked God three times.

I’ve asked a bazillion while God is not cured me less I become conceited. He’s done so much healing, especially through means that have been denounced by many in the church like secular therapy, medication, nature, self-care.  Do what you can. Here’s my closing. Do what you can to take care of the body God gave you. I’m still learning how to take care of mine. Ours might be a little janky. But remember God redeems, all things let’s get comfortable with the law we’ve been given, not complacent, not giving up, but doing what we can and then surrendering the rest of Jesus. Perhaps the goal is to trust God with our anxiety disorders, that even if healing doesn’t come, that we may have the posture of the mother of God.

I am willing to be used of the Lord. Let it happen to me as you have said, Luke, that’s from Luke one. That’s my prayer of submission. When I can’t shake my anxiety, that’s the end. And that was way longer than I thought it would be. 

Carrie: Oh, wow. So good, Tiffany, we really need this book out. And so we will definitely let people know, whenever you let me know that it’s going to be out, I will let the people know because I love that.

I feel like we share a similar heartbeat for people in the church who are struggling. So thank you so much for being brave and coming on here and talking about your own struggles. I know this is definitely going to be relatable to our audience and that people are going to be blessed by the encouragement.

Tiffany: Well, thank you so much.

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So I’d like everyone to know that we are going to have our second webinar for hope for anxiety and OCD on September the 10th. We talked about reducing shame back in May. And there was a great response to that webinar for those who were able to attend. And I’m very excited about this webinar on September 10th.

We’re going to be just talking about how to deal with difficult thoughts, whether those worry thoughts, like we talked about today, whether it’s OCD, thoughts that are popping into your mind, whatever thoughts you’re having difficulty with as a Christian. Let’s hop on a webinar together and talk about those things.

So I’m going to have a short presentation, usually about 30 minutes, and then I open it up for question and answer and we had some great questions last time. So I’m really looking forward to it for more information, I’m going to put that on our website at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com/webinars.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum.

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

40. Life Lessons From 40 episodes of Podcasting

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 40. Life Lessons From 40 episodes of Podcasting

We are on our 40th episode today! I’m flying solo to share my podcasting journey and life lessons from the previous episodes.

  • It’s impossible to have figured out everything before you start something.
  • Find your why on those days that are more difficult and you will feel like you can finish what you have started.
  • It’s the mess and the difficulty that drives us to dependence and reminds us that we can’t control everything.
  • I don’t need to worry about what’s going on with everyone else.
    I need to be worried about staying on the path that God has called me to.

All these valuable life lessons and more that you can apply in your life while you’re finding and fulfilling God’s plan in your life. 

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Transcript of Episode 40

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 40. Now, if you’ve been following along with the podcast, it’s been a little while since I’ve had a solo episode. So here I am. I wanted to talk with you about my podcasting journey, but more so in the sense of the life lessons that I’ve learned, I think these life lessons are going to be very valuable for you to hear and figure out how does that apply to your own life and maybe some of the things that you’re facing today.

So bit of encouragement, because it’s been a big hurdle over the last year or to not only start this podcast but to keep it going. There’s a term in the podcasting community called pod fade. Essentially pod fade is when people get super excited about their podcasts, they have this great idea. They get rolling and then they’re done before they even have 10 episodes released because the work that’s involved becomes overwhelming.

Whenever you’re looking at starting something new, I think there’s two different pits that people fall into like ditches on the side of the road. So one ditch on the side of the road is the people who never get started with anything because they feel like I have no idea how to do that. I don’t know. I don’t know how I’m even… They feel like they have to have everything figured out before they start something. And so if that’s you, I would say that’s impossible. So if you’re looking to start something new in your life, there’s no possible way you’re going to know everything that you’re going to run into when you face that situation or that task.

On the completely, other side of the road, there’s this other ditch that people fall into another extreme, which is more likely what I’m to fall into, which is, oh, I can do that like that it shouldn’t be too hard. I see other people doing that. Why not me? This sounds really good in the beginning. Right?

However, sometimes when you start out with that mindset, you don’t have the problem with starting the new thing. You have a problem with continuing and keeping going on the new thing. When I got into podcasting, I was like, oh, you know, you get a microphone and you turn it on. You start talking. There’s a there’s books on this. I can go read a book. I knew someone who had a podcast. So I was just like kind of approaching it pretty casually like. This shouldn’t be too difficult. I look back on that now this hilarious guys is absolutely hilarious. There’s a lot more that goes into a podcast other than turning on a microphone, talking and reading a book.

There were so many aspects that I didn’t know what I didn’t know. The thing that kept me going on the days that were more difficult or the days that I felt like I couldn’t do it anymore, or the days that I felt like I couldn’t finish was understanding why I started in the first place. Going back to finding your why. We do all kinds of things in our lives and a lot of times we don’t even step back and take a moment to reflect why am I even doing this? 

One of the beauties of the COVID-19 pandemic was that more people took that time to take this step back and to say, what have I filled my life with? And is that a valuable investment of my time, of my energy, of my money?

Life is short. We only have so many hours and we don’t know how many hours or how many days we have in this life. We want to make sure that we’re filling them with things that we believe God has called us to as Christian. That God has called us to.  In a personal sense of calling. There’s a general calling.

There’s a specific calling for me for a long time. I’ve believed that my calling was to the church. I may have talked about this on one of the beginning episodes, but I really felt like I was going to become a therapist in a church somewhere. I actually have a degree from a seminary, if you can believe that or not, it’s a counseling degree, but it’s from a seminary.

So here I was thinking that that was how my calling was going to look and that’s never happened. I’ve never, actually, I’m not in a paid sense of the word I have. I’m sure counseled some people in church in more of a lay type fashion. However, I’ve felt this burden for a long time, for people with mental health issues who are struggling in the chruch.

And this concept of them being given false information was so troubling to me.  Hearing over and over and over, somebody told me I wasn’t praying enough. Someone told me I wasn’t reading the Bible. I didn’t have faith. I didn’t trust God somehow because they were struggling. They were somehow a less than Christian.

Not only is that concept completely non-biblical because you don’t have to turn the Bible very far to find people who struggled with doubt, with fear, with depression. Elijah by the Brook wanted to die. Job cursed the day of his birth. I mean, There are so many Psalms where David cries out and is wondering where God is in the mess of his circumstances.

If we think we have to have it all together as Christians, we’re completely missing the whole point. The whole point is that in our mess, God enters in and we have communion and a relationship with him. And it’s the mess and the difficulty that drives us to dependence and reminds us that we can’t control everything.

And we need him every single day. I knew people in the church needed messages of encouragement and hope, people who are struggling with anxiety, OCD, or any other mental health concerns for that matter. I also knew there was a void of people speaking into these types of experiences. How did I know there was a void?

Well, because I looked. I looked for bloggers. I looked for people who had written books. I looked for people who are speaking about mental health struggles not just from a personal experience, although I think some of those are helpful, but also from a place of professionalism to say that professional counseling works. We have tools that can help people that are not in opposition to our faith.

I see so many Christians who are terrified of professional counseling because they think they’re going to be steered away to something non-biblical. All that to say, that was my why. And it was so good, even for me as I’m recording right now, just to repeat that out loud and to remember that. To remember the stories that I’ve heard from people who have told me about the messages they’ve heard in the church, I’m so glad that this podcast is part of changing some of those messages. 

When you know why you’re doing what you’re doing, that changes everything. So I want to ask you today, if you’re married, why are you married? It doesn’t matter if you’ve been married for two years or 20 years. Ask yourself that question. Why are you married? Why are you getting up and going to work today?

There can be many different answers to this question. And believe me, I have answered this question so many different ways in my life. I remember just crying to someone shortly after I graduated because I was in this job that wasn’t a good fit for me at all. Just crying and them telling me, you know, you’re getting good experience right now. You’re getting experience that is going to help you get licensed. So at that point in my life, I was going to work to pay bills and get a counseling license so that I could hopefully do something differently.

I won’t get into that tangent, but one of these days I may do a podcast on life lessons. 

I learned from my many jobs.

I’ve probably had about 30 jobs in my life. That’s not an exaggeration, I’ve done many different things. Some of them were very short-term obviously, but there have been days where I have gone to work because I needed to pay. And there have been days where I’ve gone to work because I wanted to make a difference and everywhere in between.

You can apply the why question to why are you parenting your kids a certain way. Why are you involved in that ministry at church? During the pandemic, I really evaluated my why I had spent much time involved in counselor training and education. While I’m so thankful for that time and don’t have any regrets. I realized that God was directing me back around to ministry, to the church for people who have mental health struggles and getting involved in some type of creation of self-help materials.

Your why can direct you to get started and your Y can keep you going on the hardest of days. 

Now we’re going to shift gears a little bit and talk about struggles with comparison. Comparison is huge in the podcasting community at times, not with everyone, but there are these Facebook groups out there where people will get really obsessed with their download numbers. They will ask questions like how long did it take you to get 1000 downloads? I made the decision early on not to become obsessed with my download numbers. One of the reasons for that was because I was in some ways surprised when anyone listened to this. I had a blog prior to the podcasts and I’m pretty sure that very few people ever went on there and read anything that I had written. If you are on social media at all, it doesn’t even have to be social media, It could be the break room at work. It could be after church on a Sunday morning. It’s just so easy to compare yourself to other people. 

One thing that I try to tell myself that I hope might help you as well is I have to say I’m on my own journey. This is a journey that God has called me to, and I’m accountable to him. I’m accountable to my husband, to myself. I’m accountable to my listeners and my clients that I see every week for counseling. I’m not accountable to some kind of invisible standard or to Susie Q the most amazing podcast or out there. I don’t need to worry about what’s going on with everyone else. I need to be worried about staying on the path that God has called me to. Don’t get me wrong. There have been plenty of times on this journey, whether it’s been through my business journey or whether it’s been through my podcasting journey, there’s plenty of times that I’ve become jealous of other people or of what they’re doing, their success.

Recently, I made a decision to change the way that I approached that jealousy. When it would come up initially, I would just be so disgusted by it like, oh gosh, I’m feeling jealous. And I don’t like being a jealous person and it just feels slimy and gross. There would be like this self-deprecation I guess that came after the conviction and the experience of the jealousy.

Then one day, I thought this is not working as a helpful way to approach this because I’m still getting jealous of people. I decided to do something that we call “act opposite of how you feel” in the psychology and counseling world. And I decided that I was going to pray for that person that I was jealous that.

Not only was I going to pray for that person, but I was going to ask God to bless them more than he’s already blessed them. That has shifted my perspective so much and cut down on a lot of the green-eyed. How does that saying go the green monster of envy, something like that a big life lesson I learned on the podcasting journey was that I can’t do it all myself and I need help. This was so hard to admit and sit with because I am a very independent person. I’m the type of person that says I have to do this in order to make sure that it gets done right. I can’t really let go and trust other people. And if I want to get something done, I have to be driven and find a way to make it happen.

And this concept of recognizing when you can’t do something, yourself is applicable to so many different areas. It’s applicable to mental health for people that are looking at getting counseling or getting on medication. It’s applicable for working mothers, maybe who are trying to keep up with every household responsibilities and are taking on more than they can handle. It may be time for you to start using grocery pickup, hiring a teenager to help with your laundry. Anything that you can reasonably and feasibly get off your plate is going to help you in the long run. It didn’t take me very long to figure it out. That I was not going to be editing these podcast episodes.

Yes, you can watch some YouTube videos on it, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be very good at it. It’s interesting to me how many people will be okay with paying for someone to do their taxes, for example, or fix their computer, maybe mow their lawn, but when it comes to mental health help, people think “I should be able to figure this out myself.”

I know I’ve done that in so many areas of my life and what I’ve had to learn, especially over the last several years of having a business even is that you can’t do all the things. And when you admit that and you sit with it, you can go to the next step, which is finding help.

I struggled for such a long time with a negative belief that I can’t get the help that I need. That one, I’m not even sure where it started or how long it had been lingering around in my mind, but I was convinced that that was the truth. Through this journey of finding an editor. as well as finding a podcast assistant to help me with things like social media, getting in touch with perspective guests, scheduling interviews has been so healing for me because it’s healed this negative belief that I can’t get the help that I need.

Maybe that’s something that you struggle with. And I just want you to know there is help out there for you. You can’t always find it on the first try. Sometimes you have to do a little bit more searching and a little bit more work to get yourself the help that you need, but it is out there. If you are willing to look for it and know also that I would not be able to continue this podcast without support from key people in my life. As you all know, my husband, Steve has been incredibly supportive of my podcasting journey. He’s the one behind the scenes, just speaking life to me, reminding me of my why, reminding me of my calling speaking just truth to me when I need to hear it when days get hard or long, or I just want to throw in the towel.

He’s right there. Also have this incredible family support and, and friends, we need other people in our lives. It’s a huge lie of the enemy that we can do this on our own and that we can’t get close to other people. We can’t trust other people. I know that you’ve been burned and I’ve been burned in my life too.

I’ve had people who were close to me, hurt me very deeply. However, I also know that there’s power in community. There’s power in support of other people being able to say, Hey, I’m here with you and I love you. And I just need you to know that. Just keep going, just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

That prayer support is so helpful as well. Steve and I were able to get involved in a small group recently, and that has been such a blessing to us, to be with other believers, to have people speaking truth and praying for us and pouring into our lives. As we seek also to pour into their lives. If you don’t have that type of support network, really evaluate and look and see what can you do to start creating that?

Even if it’s just a small way that you can add interaction, even with other people, we can’t say we want other people in our lives and then go to work, go home crash, get up in the morning, hit, repeat, and do it all over again. We have to be intentional about our relationships. We have to be intentional about reaching out to other people about saying, Hey, I want to spend time with you.

Let’s get coffee, come over to the house. You know, let’s play a game together. Let’s go for a walk in the woods, whatever it is that is going to help you get to know somebody a little bit better and connect with them. See how you can do that today. We need other people, not just surrounding us, but people that are doing what we’re doing.

Sometimes we have good support, but like nobody gets it. If that makes sense. And being a therapist can be isolating at times if you’re in private practice. Being a podcaster can be isolating at times. If you’re just sitting in a closet with a microphone, like I am right now.

 I’m so thankful that I’m going to be going to a podcasting conference for the first time this year, and continue to make connections with other podcasters, whenever I’m able to do that. Just can kind of breathe, a sigh of relief because it’s like, oh, somebody who really gets it, who knows like what the struggle that I’m going through is like. I hope that you’re able to find that in the sense of your community. Finding some people who understand what it’s like to struggle with anxiety, finding some people who understand what it’s like to have obsessions on.

Repeat in your head. I know that sometimes it’s hard to find support groups or other avenues like that. I don’t know. Maybe you need to look at starting one because if you’re sitting here and you need that. I guarantee you that there’s somebody else sitting by themselves thing, man, I really wish I had somebody to talk to about this who really got it, who really understood. I spoke about this on a previous episode, but the podcast has really given me the gift to know that I don’t have to be perfect to help people. I consider myself a recovering perfectionist. I want you to know that this podcast is far from perfect. Sometimes the audio has been less than stellar.

I’ve tripped over my words, repeated the same words over and over the website is not perfect. The social media is not perfect, pretty much. Nothing’s perfect about this podcast because it’s run by imperfect humans. And the beautiful thing about that is it doesn’t have to be because people are being helped.

People are being encouraged. Our downloads are growing every day. We have now over 5,500 downloads at this recording. It’s just incredible to me. I’ve, I’ve really been blown away by all of you listeners and the people that I’ve heard from that have said the podcast has been helpful. I appreciate you so much.

It leads me to believe that something we’re doing here is working and thank you for allowing me to be imperfect and still listening. Anyway, this is the last, the life lesson, but also one of the most important is that it’s okay to be vulnerable. Well, I knew it was okay to be vulnerable. When I started the podcast, I had this barrier of being a therapist.

I was concerned about sharing personal details, putting them out there for the whole world to hear. But most specifically, I was really concerned about my clients, hearing them to understand that you have to understand that when I was going to school. I was taught not to talk about yourself. It has to be about the client and listening to them, your story at that point, doesn’t really matter.

Unless somehow sharing it is going to benefit the client more than it’s going to benefit you. However, I was always taught to err, on the side of caution, in terms of sharing things about myself in therapy, different therapists have different views on this. And some end up talking about themselves, more in therapy maybe than I would, and that’s not necessarily right or wrong.

That’s more dependent on how the client feels about it. I. When I started the podcast, I had this big worry and fear that somehow my clients were going to look at me differently, treat me differently. Some become sidetracked in their own work, because they wanted to ask me about my own personal experiences and that big fear, like so many of our fears did not become a reality.

Actually, the clients who listened to the podcast may have said a sentence or two about how they appreciated me sharing my story or some aspect of my story that they didn’t know about me. And it didn’t derail our ability to work together. And it didn’t derail us on to them. Trying to ask me a bunch of extra questions and sessions about what I had shared.

I would have been very pleasantly surprised that this podcast has helped me overcome this barrier of being vulnerable as a therapist. When we share personal parts about ourselves, it’s an opportunity for us to be able to connect with other people. Who are going through difficult situations or who have experienced similar things.

There’s this sigh of relief. There’s this understanding like, ah, okay. They really get it. And I think that is so important in the therapeutic relationship often overlooked. I still don’t talk a whole lot about myself in my therapy sessions with clients. I still make it about them. The clients who have never heard this podcast, um, probably know very little about me other than I’m married.

And they see that I have cats because stitch likes to pop in every now and then to say hi to people when I’m on my online session. Having the podcast as an opportunity to talk through some of the struggles that I’ve dealt with in the past, as well as things that I’m still processing in my own life has been a gift of allowing God to take all the experiences, the pain, the hardships that have happened to me and turn them into something good.

I really feel like those sufferings are being used in a positive and healthy way versus just going through it, not talking about it at all and moving on so many times, we want to just forget where we’ve come through from, or we don’t want to talk about it because it stirs up these negative emotions that we have.

What I would say to you is everyone has a story. Your story may be very different from mine. And maybe there’s someone in your life that needs to hear it. Maybe there’s someone that needs that spark of encouragement before Steve and I got married, there was a lady in his church that came to me. Asked to meet with me.

And I thought, oh gosh, what is this about? I don’t, I don’t know. You know, when you’re a therapist, um, obviously sometimes people want things from you and it can get a little uncomfortable. I thought maybe she was like trying to get advice for me. And it was completely the opposite. Actually. She wanted to sit down with me and talk with me about her own marriage, some of the struggles that she went through with her husband, how she stayed, married, how she worked through some difficult things.

And she was able to give me a book that had been an encouragement to her. It was just this beautiful thing of how she used difficulties and struggles in her own life. To be able to say, I don’t want to see you go through what I’ve been through. Let me try to help you on the front end so that you don’t have to experience some of the pain and suffering.

That I’ve dealt with. And if you do get to that point in your marriage and you feel like there’s nobody I can talk to you, nobody will really understand what I’m going through. That she gave me her information. Like, please reach out to me. Honestly, that was of all the wedding gifts I got. That was one of the best ones.

Just the gift of someone else’s personal experience. And the time that she took to talk with me about it. So never underestimate your ability to encourage and love on someone else through the use of your own story that God has given you. Usually at the end of every episode, I like to do a story of hope.

So my story of hope today is about this whole thing that we’ve been talking about. It’s about the podcast. I want to share with you my hope for the future, for the podcast. You’ve heard the hope as a result of the things that I’ve learned through this process, initial journey of 40 episodes. And now I want to talk with you about the future.

I know I don’t talk about this enough, but hope for anxiety and OCD exists to reduce shame, increase. And develop healthier connections with God and others. I have a whole host of interviews lined up for people to talk with us about all kinds of different things, everywhere from personal stories of overcoming trauma, working through anxiety, processing that spiritually.

Working through the struggles of why did such and such happened to me in my life. I also have some professionals that are going to come on and talk about the connection between addiction and anxiety, how we can use our breath to tap into the calm down, uh, center of our nervous system. And it’s more than just take a deep.

We’re going to be talking about managing anger and sleep habits. They’re just, the possibilities are endless. And those are just the people that I have booked. I also have other ideas that we’re trying to get people on the podcast to discuss. Of course, you’re always a welcome to be a part of this process.

I had a college students reach out to me on Instagram, wanting to share her story, which is so awesome. If you know of other professionals who might want to be on, or if you have a topic suggestion for us, I’m definitely all ears as more and more of you are finding the podcast. I’m getting more inquiries through my, By the Well Counseling website of people seeking counseling.

Unfortunately, I’m not able to see anyone outside of the state of Tennessee due to my counseling license, being specific for Tennessee. We have hope as therapists that someday those laws may change due to the expansion of talent. There are still so many people in underserved areas in rural communities that don’t have access to adequate mental health treatment, especially for specific things like OCD.

While we are far from having a national counselor license, we are also closer than we’ve ever been. So we’re still holding out hope for that. When I do want to say to those who have reached out, maybe from other states to me, that I’m not able to see is that I am in the process of creating some self-help materials for people who struggle with anxiety and OCD.

Of course, you all will be the first to hear more about that once it’s complete. And once I have things set up and ready to go, I’m recording some audio relaxations as well as teachings that I think are going to be beneficial to many people. The best way to find out when those materials come out is to get on our email at hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I know I have failed miserably at emailing you guys on a regular basis, but I will definitely let you know when these materials come out and also check our social media. If you follow those pages. My hope is that people who don’t have access to counseling services or need something to work on in between sessions.

Maybe that are going to counseling. We’ll have more Christian self-help materials available to them that they feel comfortable, that it’s aligned with their faith and belief system. It’s scary even to put this out on the podcast, right? Because now I really need to follow through with what I’ve said I’m going to do.

And that’s all for today. I’m so thankful for each and every one of you here, listening. I know that there’s a reason that I’m here and there’s a reason that you’re here right now.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By the Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Maingrum. Until next time, may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Personal Stories

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, OCD, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Personal Stories

No Longer Plagued by Fear and Depression: A Personal Story with Stormie Omartian

Stormie is a bestselling author who personally connects with readers by sharing experiences and lessons that beautifully illustrate how God changes lives when we learn to trust in Him.

Stormie’s struggle with anxiety and phobias
Her horrible experience of growing up with a mother who has mental health disorder
Overworking to cope with trauma and depression
Finding hope for the first time and surrendering to God
What does the process of forgiveness look like for Stormie
The power of praying through fear

From Ashamed to Advocate: A Personal Anxiety Story with Jeff Allen

“I deal with anxiety almost every day at some level. And sometimes it’s worse than, or sometimes it’s better than other times, but anything to help people understand that they’re not alone.”

Jeff Allen, a mental health advocate and host of Simple Mental Health Podcast shares his journey through anxiety, how he overcame shame and stigma around seeking help and taking medication.

  • How Jeff discovered he had an anxiety disorder.
  • Backlash he received from churchgoers for opening up about his mental health condition.
  • Spiritual doubt process that he went through 
  • Prayer, medication and therapy
  • His journey of spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction

 

A Personal OCD Story of Experiencing God’s Presence and Grace with Peyton Garland

“OCD has been the gateway to God and grace for me.” Peyton Garland author of Not So By Myself shares her story of OCD and her journey of going to therapy.

 After seeing a therapist, her mother and grandmother followed after her and sought professional help for themselves. 

  • Peyton’s experience of contamination OCD 
  • What it was like to go to therapy for the first time
  • Getting help with brainspotting (type of therapy)
  • Growing up in a strict church culture and how her faith changed over the years as she grew to know God.
  • Growing up in home with a parent who has PTSD 
  • Ripple effect on her family after she decided to seek help
  • How Peyton’s husband works with her on compulsions
  • God breaks into lonely places. He works best in the mess. 

Panic Attacks, OCD, and God: A Personal Story with Mitzi VanCleve

Author Mitzi VanCleve shares her own personal story of experiencing anxiety, panic attacks, and OCD and ultimately, how God has used these things for good in her own life.

  • Obsessions Mitzi experienced even as a young child
  • Mitzi’s experience with scrupulosity OCD
  • How she made the decision to take mental health medication as a Christian 
  • Experiences of mental health stigma from Christians 
  • Learning about panic attacks from a magazine articl
  • Wrestling with God about having OCD

Carrie’s Story of Anxiety in Dating with Now Husband Steve

Carrie and Steve talk about anxiety during the dating process and Steve involvement in helping Carrie work through it. 

  • Carrie’s Anxiety about putting herself out there to date and how that brought her back to therapy 
  • Challenges of Christian dating after a divorce 
  • Accepting the anxiety and difficulty trusting as part of the process of getting closer
  • Advice to singles in the church

One Therapist’s Story of Discovering Her Scrupulosity OCD with Rachel Hammons

  • How Rachel discovered she had been struggling with scrupolisity OCD.
  • How to determine if this is a normal level of spiritual concern or could be OCD
  • What is Scrupulosity OCD?
  • Learning how to sit with discomfort and ambiguity  
  • Getting to know the character of God and filtering information through that lens

39. Grieving with Anxiety and Depression: A Personal Story with Shelly Rainey

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 39. Grieving with Anxiety and Depression: A Personal Story with Shelly Rainey

I had the privilege of interviewing Shelly Rainey, a mom, motivational speaker and author.  Shelly shares with us her journey through anxiety, grief and loss and how she relied on her faith.

  • Going through a deep, dark depression and how God carried her through.
  • Learning to deal with her situation differently.
  • Seeking professional help for her anxiety and depression
  • How God slowly restored her. 
  • Inspiring others through her book, The Fragile Heart. 

Links And Resources

Shelly Rainey
The Fragile Heart

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Transcript of Episode 39

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 39.  On today’s episode, we have a personal story with Shelly Rainey. Shelly has a pretty amazing story about the connection between anxiety and grief and loss. I was blown away by her story and how much she has overcome with the help of the Lord. So without further ado, let’s get into the interview.

Carrie: Shelly, welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Shelly: Well first, thank you so much, Carrie for having me on your show. I really appreciate it.  Well about me. Let’s see. I am a mom of a beautiful 16-year-old daughter, a wife of a super amazing husband. And I’m also the author of the inspirational book.

The Fragile Heart and hosted The Turning Point Podcast. And recently I launched The Inspired Life by SLR and basically, all that is, is just a ministry that’s geared towards women who are trying to navigate through pain and depression and grief and all of that. And what I do is I offer a resource. And the community to help during those rough times because you know, when you’re going through hard times like that, the worst feeling is the fact that you feel like you’re alone. Right. What I try to do is just basically say you’re not alone. 

We have a whole community here that we’re basically wanting to help in any way we can, whether it’s through an encouraging blog, or some of the free resources that I have through eBooks or the podcast or anything.

And, yeah, it’s great. And I just launched it while maybe three weeks ago. So it’s brand new. 

Carrie: Wow. That is. Yes. Okay. So you wanted to come on and tell us a little bit about your own personal experience with anxiety and depression. Yes. I basically have experienced anxiety and depression at different points in my life. And I can just remember dealing with a little bit of it when I was a teenager around the age of 16. And I don’t know if that was just like a typical thing to just have these depressing moments, but I did. And that was like the first time. But most of the time I can say that feelings of depression and all of that and anxiety was usually attached to for me traumatic situation. And for me, I’ve lost three children. 

I remember I was about 27 when I lost my first daughter. She was still born when I was about seven and a half months pregnant. And I recall that was one of the worst times for me when it comes to dealing with depression because it lasts such a long time.

And it had gotten to the point where I was tired of dealing with the pain and the sadness, and I just wanted it to go away, but I was at a dangerous point. I was at a dangerous point with it where I actually considered suicide. And because I just wanted the pain to stop. Of course, you know, I grew up in a family where we were taught to rely on our faith, you know, and trust God through all of the hard circumstances.

And, you know, watching my parents, they were like the living examples. When hard times hit, you know, you just rely on your faith and God carries you through. But for me, that was just a dark time for me. And I felt like it was kind of difficult to rely on my faith and the foundation that I grew up in because it was just, it felt like I was overwhelmed by the grief, by the sadness, by the depression, the anxiety, all of it.

And it was pretty difficult. And I can recall just getting to that point where I was like I can’t take it anymore, but it’s something how, when you’re in the darkest place and it’s like your foundation that comes back to you. I can recall sitting down in the floor with a bottle of pills and I just stopped and I began to pray and I said, God, please help me.

That’s all I could do. Please help me and let me just tell you instantly, it’s just like I felt overwhelming sense of peace and I’m like, wow. I was like, I was getting a big hug at that moment. I was like, wow, this is a feeling that I haven’t had in a long time.  And I can recall, you know, just going through that and having the support of my family and everything where I was able to come up out of it, of course, but it just took a long time.

And then as time went on, I had a miscarriage maybe two and a half years later, and I felt a little bit of depression coming back. But it wasn’t something that basically overtook me because I was getting married three weeks later. I’m getting married and my life-changing. I think that kind of overshadowed my feelings, where I was able to tuck them away and compartmentalize.

And focused on my wedding, you know what I mean? And  I was good, but of course, every now and again, the sadness will come back up. And with me, I was going through a situation where the doctor said I could not have children, and it wasn’t too long after my husband and I were married.

I found out I was pregnant again, and I was petrified. And I was like I can’t endure that again. I can not go through another loss. I’ve already had two. Have an enemy to do another one. And so we prayed and let me just tell you, it was like, God carried me through that entire pregnancy because even though it was rough and I was on bed rest almost the entire time, but that’s where our miracle daughter. She was born healthy and she’s like I said, she’s 16 now. Yes. Yes. And so it’s just like, everything is going along just great. But I remember back in 2008, I found out we were expecting again, and this time it was a little bit different because although I delivered very early, I think we were about seven and a half months pregnant again.

And our daughter, Victoria, she was one pound four and a half ounces. She was very tiny, but the doctor said she had a strong heart and everything was going great. And I was just so excited because I’m like, yes, another miracle. God did it again. This is just great. 21 days later, she took a turn for the worst and she passed away. And let me just tell you. I’m at a different place in my life when this was going on because I. relied on my faith more. My faith had increased three years, you know what I mean? 

Carrie: So it was different going through that loss than going through the earlier loss things. 

Shelly: Exactly. And I think with God showing me the miracle of my daughter had a lot to do with that.

You know what I mean? And so after this loss, I didn’t feel hopeless,  but sadness was still there, you know, depression didn’t grip me the same way, but it kinda saw that I had my moments and I said, you know what? I’m going to deal with this situation a little bit differently. And that just began to write just because I couldn’t sleep at night. I’d set up with cry a lot and the question came to my mind. It seemed like Lord, you chosen me to endure a lot of pain and I don’t understand why. And I just began to write and write and write and write. And next thing I know, actually finished my first book, which is The Fragile Heart. And I said, you know what I want to do with this situation? And all we know that healing, it’s a process, right?

It doesn’t happen overnight. But I figure if I just continue to move forward with something that I could eventually get to the place of his. And so, you know, after the book was released and everything, I remember God telling me, just share your story. And so I just began speaking at conferences and events, and I had a lot of book signings and it’s just like God just kept me busy for a couple of years with that.

And just sharing my story and just watching the effect that it had on it. A lot of different people, I’m just like, wow. You know, and it’s like, as time went on, I began to understand a little bit of why, just a little bit. And I would get out there Carrie, and I would just speak to large crowds and just get out there and talk about hope and healing and restoration and go back to my hotel room and just collapsed in tears.

Because I’m sharing my story and I’m believing it and I trust God, but that goes to show you it’s a process because I was not fully delivered myself. I was still dealing with those times. And with God showed me something through all that. It’s like my faith increased each time and I found that I had to lean on him more and more, even more so than before.

And with that, if you can imagine just feeling like you’re totally broken, but bit by bit God was slowly but surely restoring me. But in the end, it was just like I was the stronger person with more determination, more substance. It was just like, he made me all over again and that’s the awesome part about it.

And so now when I look back being on the other side of it, I’m like, okay, God, you actually really revealed the why. So I get it. It was bigger than me, basically. It was much bigger than me.

Carrie: How do you deal with going through that publicly. I know there are a lot of women out there that have miscarriages very early. And so they don’t necessarily have to tell anyone and they tend to suffer in silence. I think more and more women are being more open about pregnancy loss, which is a beautiful thing because a lot of women go through it. However, when you’re seven and a half months along, people are already doing things like throwing you showers, probably you have baby stuff in your house. And now all of a sudden you have to tell these people that Hey. Our child is passed away. What was the element of everything going through it publicly hard. 

Shelly: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And with my family, we’re very close-knit family. We have a very large family and it’s like, they have gone through the entire process with me.

And so, you know, with everyone knows my history and everything I had gone through. It’s like they were kind of sold on pins and needles, of course, but with my daughter, Victoria, after she was born, I mean, my great, my grandparents flew in from Texas and different people flew in just to meet her because they knew that I endured so much.

So it was a beautiful time in the beginning, but like you said, having to walk that out publicly. It was hard. And with me, I am the type of person I’ll put on a smile and unless you know me, you would think I’m okay. And so I would have this instant thing where I’m okay. I don’t want you to be sad about it. It’s okay. I’m going to be all right. I will go into that very quickly. 

Carrie: Yeah. The brave face that you put on for everybody. 

Shelly: Absolutely. So that’s how I dealt with it publicly put on the brave face and when they see me, they’re like, okay, she’s all right. She’s going to be fine. But in private I fall in the pieces.

And so, yeah, it was pretty tough, but I think the hardest part for me, especially when we lost Victoria, was my daughter. Hannah was so excited about being a big sister. She’s like, I’m a big sister. And she used to wear this one shirt all every day. She wanted to wear it every day. It’s like, she says I’m going to be a big sister.

And the sad part was coming home and having to tell her. Your baby sister’s in heaven. I was in my brain. I’m trying to figure out how do I word this? How do I explain to a three-year-old? And that’s how I put it to her. I’m like she’s not coming home, but she’s an angel and he’s watching over us now. And of course my daughter asks all of the questions.

Well, why can’t I see her? I just saw her the other day, you know, that type of thing. So that was difficult. However, as time went on, we were able to deal with it better. In the older she had gotten, my daughter, she began to really begin to accept and things like that. 

Carrie: So talk to us about maybe the intersection between like anxiety and grief. Obviously, you talked a little bit about anxiety when you would get pregnant again, it was like how is this going to go? 

Shelly: Yes, the anxiety. I think that’s torture. I’m just going to tell you that, that feeling of just anxiousness, just all of the time.

And it was just horrible for me and grief, you know, that’s the sadness, that’s the heaviness, but the anxiousness and the feeling like you’re going to have a panic attack and your breakout and sweats. And it’s just that whole just uneasy. That portion was very, very difficult for me. 

And I actually experienced it recently and about to 2019, I believe because I was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease and I was put on a lot of different medications in this one particular medication was by way of infusion. And everything totally changed for me and the career I worked in for more than 20 years, I had to stop. And it was just so many different changes going on, but one of the side effects that even of the medication was anxiety and depression. And let me just tell you, on top of dealing with my whole scenario changing and sometimes going through excruciating pain, all of these things and to have anxiety on top of all of that, I felt like, oh my gosh, I felt like I’m losing my mind here. I was just always on edge, you know? And I actually began, of course, I prayed about it and you know, God help me deal with this and please give me peace. But I also began to seek professional help because I’m like I need something to bring this thing under control.

Carrie: Yeah, I think that that’s really important part of a lot of people’s journey. And one of the reasons that we have this podcast in the first place is like to reduce shame surrounding getting help because sometimes people in the church think, well, I have God and God is all I need. I can just talk to the pastor about it and I’m good. And I don’t need like therapy therapies for like, you know, the really crazy people or something. 

Shelly: Yeah, exactly. It’s just like the stigma that comes along with it. And I can recall going to the doctor because I told my doctor, I said I can’t deal with this any longer. And she suggested, and she said, I know you’re a woman of faith.

And she had that talk with me like it’s okay. It does not mean that you’re trusting God any less. The doctors are here to help. Just like you go to the doctor, you come see me. It’s okay to get help. And it’s like, okay. And with her actually helping me get through that whole stigma, which was awesome. It helped. Let me just tell you it helped a lot. 

Carrie: That is awesome. I’m so glad that she was able to kind of point you in that direction. Were there specific things that you learned either in therapy or just through this journey that you found helpful and kind of helping your body calm down?

Shelly: Yes, it was a couple of things and of course, spiritually I’ve learned some.

Things and God’s hands even more because with my personality, like to control everything. I like to be in control of my time and control of everything that’s going on around me. But of course, when you’re dealing with life, sometimes it’s difficult to control and it’s hard to maintain control.

And I find myself having to lean on God and having to relax and have the meditation time and my prayer time and just go into that quiet place in as far as going to therapy, they taught me how to, you know, with the breathing exercises and things like that. Just a little relax.

It’s okay to just allow yourself to relax. And for those times where I just felt like I could not get it together. It’s those are the times I really had to pray hard and said, okay, I need your help here. And he would always show up for me. I have to say that because sometimes we feel like we’re in this battle, especially when you’re laying down and your mind’s racing and everything’s going.

And then when you’re at a place where you say, you know what, God, I’m going to release. I gave it to you. I’m going to leave it there. And I’m just going to relax and get some sleep because if you have it under control. I mean, it just had to be a place where I went to in my faith where I had to totally trust God because sometimes we trust them a little bit, but we’ll give him something, but then we’ll grab it back.

And then we put our hands in it and that was me. Let me just tell you, through dealing with anxiety and depression. It taught me how to really lean and depend on God and trust him to work out the circumstances that were going on around me. 

Carrie: That’s really good. I think there is something to be said about that connection between anxiety and us, trying to control all the elements of our lives.

And it’s impossible. It’s absolutely impossible. We can’t control relationships that we’re in. We can’t control our health. We can’t control life tragedies like you were talking about. And so when we learned that, okay, that control stuff is God’s department and I can really just rest.  He’s king of the universe.

He’s got it under control and I can take that step back and just, just breathe. It helps us so much. Yes, it does. It does.

So, how do you feel like specifically, this journey has grown your faith? I know that you’ve talked about it a little bit, but has it affected how you see God? 

Shelly: Yes. And it goes back to what I was just saying about trusting him more. I’ve learned to trust the process. I’ve learned to just kind of go with it.

Because in this life there’s a process and it’s like, God has a plan already predestined. He knew back in 2008, when I lost my daughter that I would be in this place right now at this particular moment, sharing that story and all the while when I was going through it, I’m right in the middle of it, I don’t see anything, but what’s in my immediate surrounding and my immediate view. I can’t see down the line, but he can. And so what I’ve learned is basically trust the process. And I could not say that to you some years ago, because back then I know I was like, okay, I don’t understand what’s going on. I need to figure it out. I desperately need to figure it out, but not so much anymore because again, Through time through going through various situations and God’s showing up each time remaining consistent how he is. It’s just like, I’m learning like, okay. If I put it in his hands, he’s got it. He already knows how it’s going to work out in the end.

I don’t know. But you know, eventually, I’ll get there, but it’s just, again, again, for me, I just learned to lean on God more and just trust the process. 

Carrie: Yeah, I think there’s an element too, of thankfulness of what we do have that grows so much when we’ve been through tragedy and loss. 

Shelly: Absolutely. It’s just like for me, the smaller things, just enjoying life, just enjoying family, just making memories, making the most of things that happen because when my dad passed away a couple years ago, one thing I learned from that was just continue to make memories as opposed to trying to always… because sometimes we have this idea and especially when it comes to our parents like they’re going to be here forever.

You don’t fathom that they would actually leave us, you know? And that was the case with when my dad, you know, it was so unexpected, but after, you know, going through that circumstance, it was like, okay, I need to appreciate the small moments now. Every moment that I spend with my mom or my family or whomever, it’s a moment to make memories.

And so I’m more appreciative of time now. Right? 

Carrie: That’s good. I think that that’s really good. And it’s a good reminder and lesson for all of us. Absolutely. So towards the end of the podcast, I like to ask every guest to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

I feel weird asking you that question because I feel like that was our whole episode today. So I don’t know if you have anything else that you want to share, or maybe you can share about what it’s been like speaking to other people and sharing your story.

Monica: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think about this one in particular moment, and I remember I was doing a conference. And just share my story again, like I was talking about earlier and I can recall, you know, just kind of, so they’re going through everything. And at the end, I had this moment where we had music playing and I had everybody just to write down something they were going through and ball it up in a piece of paper and kind of toss it in the basket, in the front of the room.

So we’ve gone around and the music is going and this young lady came up to me afterwards. And she had tears in our eyes and I will never forget her, but she grabbed my hand and she said, I thought that my circumstance was hard. She said, when I came here, I felt hopeless. I felt like I’m just going because my friend invited me.

She was, and she told me, she said, but listening to your story and listening to, you know, she could hear the pain and different things she said, but talking about how. We’re able to overcome. And she said I’m watching that big smile on your face. Now she said, I feel I’m leaving, feeling lighter. I’m leaving feeling with a sense of hope.

And she hugged me. She said I appreciate you for just getting up here and just do your bravery to share your story and thank you so much. And it just gripped my heart because it wasn’t necessarily about me, but I just felt in that moment that, wow, God used me as a vessel to actually help somebody else. And that was just the most amazing part of everything. And this is what it’s all about. You can just reach one person.  It’s worth it.

Carrie:  That’s awesome. Are you essentially in full-time ministry now?

Shelly:  Basically Yes, basically. I just started the new online ministry with the community of women who basically have gone through pain, whether it’s losing a loved one or divorce or.

I mean, because we endure a lot of different heart situations. And it comes from different areas, but it’s all the same pain. And that’s the area of ministry that God has me in.

Carrie: Awesome. We’ll make sure to put links to where people can find you and find the book if they’re interested. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I think that that’s going to be impactful to people. 

Shelly: Well, thank you so much again, for having me. I really, really enjoyed being able to share my story and just knowing that it just, hopefully prayerfully will be able to help somebody. 

Do you want to stay most up-to-date about what is happening with Hope for Anxiety and OCD? You can follow us on Instagram. We are at Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast, which I’m pretty sure is like one of the longer Instagram handles I’ve seen. And we’re also on Facebook as well, facebook.com/hopeforanxietyandocd. Thanks for hanging out and listening today.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you

Different Types of Therapy

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Different Types of Therapy

Using Brainspotting for Anxiety and OCD with Brooke Randolph, LMHC

  • What is Brainspotting? How does it work? 
  • How was Brainspotting developed? Who discovered it?
  • How can Brainspotting help with anxiety and OCD?
  • What happens during and after a Brainspotting session
  • Can Brainspotting be used with all ages? 
  • Brainspotting training
  • Comparison between Branspotting and other forms of therapy.

Brooke Randolph, LMHC
Counseling At The Green House

Play Therapy for School Aged Children with Anxiety with Brittany Dyer, LPC-MHSP

  • How does anxiety present in school-aged children? 
  • How does childhood anxiety present differently from adult anxiety?
  • Behaviors that may indicate a child has anxiety
  • Anxious parents with anxious children.
  • Things parents can do to help their child with anxiety.
  • What is play therapy? How does it work?
  • How to introduce therapy to your kids
  • How does play therapy reduce anxiety in children and even in adults?
  • Signs that your child may need a therapist 


Brittany Dyer, LPC-MHSP

Reducing Anxiety with Secret Keeping Horses (Equine Assisted Therapy), Bailee Teter, LPC-MHSP (temp)

  • Bailee’s story about how she became an Equine Assisted Therapist without being a “horse person.” 
  • What is Equine Assisted Therapy?
  • Different models of Equine Assisted Therapy.
  • How does equine therapy help with anxiety and other mental issues?
  • Human-animal emotional connection. God says take care of the animals.
  • Horses read and respond to human emotions like anxiety.
  • Stories about how equine therapy helps people with anxiety

Unbridled Changes Website
Bailee Teter

Welcoming the Parts We Don’t Like (Internal Family System -IFS) with Lindsey Castleman, LMFT

  • What is IFS (Internal Family System) Therapy
  • How did Lindsey get into Christian counseling
  • How did she incorporate Christian faith principles into her practice
  • Looking at the core of self through attachment and faith-based lens
  • Some parts of self want attention come in different forms like anxiety and OCD
  • Bringing all parts of yourself connected as God is three in one

Lindsey Castleman, LMFT

The Power of EMDR Therapy for Anxiety with Sarah Slade, LPC-MHSP

  • Our path to receiving EMDR training
  • What is EMDR?
  • Different types of trauma (little t and big T)
  • Getting to the root of troubling body sensations and 
  • How EMDR can be helpful for people with anxiety 

Sarah’s Counseling Practice: Willow Tree Counseling, licensed in TN and KY
Sarah’s book: Healing Negative Wounds: The Impact of Trauma

How PCIT Can Help Your Anxious Child with Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP

  • What is Parent Child Interaction Therapy?
  • How PCIT is helpful for children with behavioral problems
  • How receiving PCIT virtually through online counseling benefits families
  • Are the tantrums my young child is having a normal part of development?
  • PCIT Calm adaptation for anxious children
  • Reinforcing brave behaviors over accommodating anxiety

Anika Mullen, LPC-MHSP: https://ecounselingconnection.com/clinician-credentials

The Science Behind Engaging with Music for Anxiety Relief (Music Therapy) with Tim Ringgold

  • Spiritual pain
  • Neuroscience behind how music calms the nervous system
  • Practical ways to utilize music when stressed
  • Difference between listening to music passively and engaging with it

Tim Ringold: https://www.timringgold.com/

Music therapy: https://www.musictherapy.org/about/musictherapy/

38. What is Self-Care all About? With Monica McLaurine

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 38. What is Self-Care all About? With Monica McLaurine

Today’s special guest is a certified life coach, author and motivational speaker, Monica McLaurine. Monica and I had a great conversation about what self-care really means and why it’s so important. Monica also shares some insights on how to help kids deal with bullying based on her book, I Told My Kid To Fight Back. 

  • What are examples of self-care?
  • Learning to do things a different way
  • Self-care is for everybody. How do men practice self-care differently than women? 
  • Counseling as part of self-care
  • Why self-care is important for Christians?
  • Jesus models self-care
  • Small ways to start practicing self-care

Links and Resources:

Monica Mclaurine
Books:
       Becoming Comfortable In My Own Skin: The Journey To Loving Me
       I Told My Kid To Fight Back


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Transcript of Episode 38

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 38. On today’s episode, I am talking with Monica McLaurine (see our show notes for spelling on that) about self-care. What in the world  is self-care all about.  We hear a lot of people talk about it. It’s a big buzzword. And I feel like this episode is timely right now because people are coming back to their rate of busy-ness maybe that they had before COVID, hopefully not as busy, but getting back into routines and activities that we were doing prior to all of the shutting down and restrictions, more places are open and more activities are available. 

Monica is also going to talk with us a little bit at the end about some books that she’s written and talks she’s given on bullying.

Carrie: Monica, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Monica: Hello Carrie. Thanks for having me. My name is Monica McLaurine. And I am a certified life coach, and I’m also a two-time author, two books, and I also have some motivational speaking experience. So I am a lover of Christ and a follower of Christ.

And I’m just excited to be here to talk with you on today.

Carrie:  I’m excited to have you on, I think we’re going to have a good conversation today on self-care. So, this is something that a lot of people are talking about. You know, it’s a buzz word. “Oh, you gotta take time for yourself. You gotta have self-care.”

So how do you define that for people? 

Monica: When I think about self-care is simply what it says is taking care of yourself. And most times people don’t even realize that they’re not taking care of. They don’t realize it, it comes in many forms. There are several different types of self-care, whether it’s physical mass, where you may get out and take a walk or go sit under the stars at night, bird watching whatever it is out and about, or whether it’s emotional, saying no, which is sometimes some things that I struggle with saying no, whether it’s social.

When I say social, this is one of the things that I’ve really, really struggled with is asking for help. A lot of times, like myself, I’m just going to talk about myself. I am happy to help anybody else until I just can’t do anymore. People will ask me, do you need some help with that? I’m like, oh, I’m okay. I’m fine. I have it.

Asking for help, that’s a partisan, right? A lot of people are still working from home currently. So when you think about your environment, decluttering your office or your home. That’s a big thing. My sister-in-law, bless her heart, she is an organizational, very clean person and things are in disarray. She can’t tolerate it.

It pushes her into anxiety. And also going along with that, when you think about professional self-care, if you’re working from home, are you actually taking a lunch break? Are you actually taking a break? Oftentimes I’m guilty of going downstairs to give me something to eat. And then I turned around and come right back upstairs and I’m eating and I’m working.

And so don’t take that mental break and it’s a necessity for self-care or even if it’s just spiritual, meditating. I just recently started meditating because I didn’t understand it at first like what is that? But the sittings feel and allowing yourself to get in the process of being calm because I do suffer from anxiety. So I had to try some different things to make sure that I took care of Monica and meditation was part of that. 

Carrie: Just the concept of slowing things down. I think that’s probably our biggest barrier to self care is learning how to hit the pause button. That was something essentially, in some ways we had to do it during this time of pandemic and Coronavirus, things did have to slow down. What I’m seeing now is that like, when we’re recording this, we’re approaching the summer and people are getting vaccinated and they’re getting out more and it’s like I turned to my husband like a week ago and was like, I feel like we’re in pre-pandemic life like our calendar is actually filling up with stuff.

And so it’s an opportunity for us to have a conversation and to say, Hey, where’s our date night at on this calendar?  We’re running over here and doing some for church. And then we’re doing something with our friends over here. We’re married. This is important. This is a priority. And part of that, what you’re talking about with the relationship in the social domain, like making sure that you have time for the people that are most important to you life.

Monica: We had to learn to do things a different way. If you did a date night, date night might not be out of the restaurant, but it might be in the backyard. Or if you’d like to go out with your friends and do a happy hour, do do it on zoom. You really had to learn to do things a different way.

Carrie: Right. And those social connections. I think what this has taught us are so important for ourselves like we were made to live in community. And that’s an important thing. I loved what you said there earlier about boundaries and saying no to things in order to take care of yourself. It’s that whole, you’ve got to put on your own oxygen mask on the airplane before you put one on your child. And it’s interesting to me that on the flights that I’ve been on. I haven’t flown in a while, but the flights that I’ve been on, they come around and they look at each person it’s like a real serious thing. It’s like, okay, now I understand that you need to put on your own oxygen mask first 

Monica: And we help anybody else until you help yourself first. I

Carrie: f you can’t breathe, that’s not good situation. And so many times we find ourselves in the busyness or the rush of love whether it’s owning our own business or raising kids or serving at the church. And the next thing we know, we’re like emotionally have no time to just sit and rest and breathe and reflect. For me, I know that those periods are what I need to get refueled and recharged to be able to go out and do the other things that I do, especially because I’m an introvert. So there’s this balance. And we had a whole podcast on introversion. If you haven’t listened to it, you know, definitely go back and listen to it because I loved that one. That was one of my favorite, just so identified with it, you know, just needing the time away from people. So that you can go back and engage, you know, with others is yes. Yes. At your own space and your own speed. One thing I did in terms of boundaries recently for self-care. I’ll just share a personal example.

Mother’s day, this year was really hard for me. I have a history of having foster children. I wanted to go to church, but at the same time, I didn’t want to be balling all over the place and, you know, snotting on everybody. So I kind of made this agreement with my husband because he was gonna be greeting that day.

And I said, Hey, I’m going to come to church and I’m not going to greet with you. And I’m not going to stay around and hang out after I’m probably going to be pretty emotional. It’s just a day where I think about, you know, my foster children and missing them. And that’s my context of being a mom since I don’t have my own little.

And this is kind of what I need. I need to just kind of go in, right when service starts, sit in the service, get the word, get the worship, and then I need to leave. I don’t need to kind of hang around and, and cry or anything like that because I know other people are going to be super happy and celebrating.

And I certainly believe there is room there’s room in church for tears. Don’t get me wrong, but it’s kind of just one of those situations where for me, that was what I needed to take care of myself. I needed to not be around people at that point, I needed to go to the car and get my tissues and cry and have a conversation with God and kind of finish up.

That was my finishing of the worship service was in the car and that’s okay. And I didn’t have to feel bad or guilty about that whereas I think in the past, I would have felt like. Oh, I’ve got to feel happy because everybody else around me is happy and I need to be really like celebrating moms. And, you know, you have a mother and you should be thankful.

You have a mother. I mean, there’s so many conversations I think I would have had with myself in the past, but I just like created this space in this room to just have my feelings and take care of myself and do what I needed to do. And that was really the best fit for me. 

Monica: Absolutely. And it’s great that you realize that it’s okay to feel like that.

 A lot of people like you said, feel guilt or feel like you have to be a certain way. Everybody’s entitled to how they feel. And that’s how you felt at the moment. And you empowered yourself to set those boundaries. That allows you to feel how you feel and that’s awesome. And it’s great that you were able to do that for yourself.

Carrie: Thank you. Why is this topic important for you personally? Is this something that you had view struggled with burnout in the past or with not taking care of yourself? 

Monica: Absolutely. I was always on the go go, go here there. And working in my daytime job. I was all over the community, going to the office of one over here that they’ll do this particular program.

And then I’m fighting traffic to go to work. I’m fighting traffic to get home from work. I mean, that would be so many times that I will pull in front of my house. And I would just sit there for like 20, 30 minutes. It’s like I couldn’t move. I was like exhausted. And one of the things that I realized that my body would get to the point where it’s really sick of me.  It’s like, oh, okay.

You won’t slow down? Okay. I’m going to slow you down. And it shuts me down for like two weeks. I’ll get bronchitis, I’ll get like really sick and why I have no other choice but to sit down. So if I can avoid that, I had to do something different in order to avoid that because I don’t like being sick. I like being able to do what I want to do when I want to do it.

So it was very important for me, not only for my physical, it was important for my mental, I mean, just burning out, just exhausted, just getting to the point where I had nothing else to give. I was like there’s gotta be a different way. It’s got to be a different way. I can do this. And so that calls me to really look into, see what self-care really meant and what it involves.

Carrie: I’m glad you brought up that physical aspect of illness because there was a lady that I worked with many, many years ago. She was in her thirties and she got shingles and it was really due to stress because she was working seven days a week. And our bodies, we have to listen to that. God gives us these cues that when our bodies are run down, they’ll let us know.

Oh, I just feel like I need to rest today or I need to slow down or I’m getting sick all the time like you were saying.  We’ve got to listen to those cues and signals of like a warning sign to take better care of ourselves. 

Monica: Yeah. Shingles is very painful. I’ve had shingles, you know, my mom had had. As has shingles is a very painful experience to go through.

And so we have enough hustle and bustle as it is. So why get yourself to the point where you got to add on where you get sick or you get shingles or your blood pressure goes up, or you have heart issues. We’ve got to learn to do things, to take care of ourselves because if we don’t take care of ourselves, who we are?

And ultimately we can’t take care of anybody else or be there for anybody else. If we are not mentally, emotionally prepare and rested and whatever it takes to make sure we’re getting that self-care that we need. 

Carrie: Right. One of the things that you and I talked about before we had you come on, the show was that there’s this concept, maybe with males where they hear the word self-care, and they’re thinking about some women that are painting their nails or going and getting a pedicure. Tell us a little bit about that like, how do some of the men maybe that you work with, or that, you know, practice self care? 

Monica: It’s really funny that you asked me that. I guess a couple of months ago, I did an experiment on my Facebook pack page asking me, and what do you do for self-care? And the responses were all over the place.

They didn’t really think about it like what is self care? And then you had somewhere the guys were saying, well, that’s girls, that’s not something that. You know, we as men do, then some talked about it. They’d like to go get a hair cut or they like me, and like to get pedicures too. I had a lot of people that said that they said they go and work out or go play video games.

But only if you said that they will take the time to go and talk to somebody about what they’re going through. That is kind of what I expected, but it makes me sad because everybody needs to be, everybody needs to talk through something with someone else. Everybody needs a confidence, I don’t a confidant.

I don’t care who you are. And that is a part of self-care. All of that is a part of self-care. It is in no way strictly for female. It’s is for everybody. And it really made me think what I add a suggestion yesterday, just yesterday. They said, well, maybe we need to call it something else. So it doesn’t seem like that’s just for women, but it also makes me sad.

I’m wondering if we, as society has created an environment for me and when they feel like they can’t do certain things. That they masculine traits them that they shouldn’t do certain things like I saw something today. They said, what kind of man goes to celebrate has a birthday dinner?

I’m like, what you, yeah, 

Carrie: just these, like, I don’t know, man-made expectations that we put on men. Like somehow you have to be a Superman. 

Monica: Right. And when you think about it and I have been fortunate and I’m honored that some guys feel like they can talk to. And they’re going through something and they’re frustrated and of course, you know, the life coach had me and I’m trying to talk to them while they’re going through.

And then they’re so in a zone while I realized I had to just stop and just listen. Met them, you know, they will say, well, who are we supposed to go to the top to where we’re going through something we’re frustrated, what are we supposed to do? We don’t have the opportunity. And they’re so afraid that if they allow themselves to become vulnerable, that it will be brought up later and thrown in their face, you know?

So I wanted them to see the different options and what self-care looks like. And not only that, they’re entitled to do it as a human being and it is needed. It’s okay to go to sit. I call it couch time to go and sit on someone’s couch and have a conversation and to talk to someone to help you think through it because counseling is not anything for somebody to tell you what to do is to help you to work through it, to find out what’s best for you.

And I am very open about my experience of going and getting my couch time, going to therapy. That was the best thing I ever did in my life. It amazed me because me sharing that I’ve done it. Other people said, well, I went to cause it was like almost like a shame.

So I was like, yeah, I went to and I mean, I’ve helped other people close to me and I’ll help you look for something. You know, if you have insurance, it’s just like getting insurance, you know, in most cases, you know, find you somebody who might take your insurance, or even if, you know, they don’t, a lot of times they will work with you, you know, or maybe offer some free sessions, anything.

So just trying to get where their mind is to get them thinking about what that is, and then not being afraid or shame to do it so that the men, it has been interesting talking to them and listening to them and what their thoughts are, what they felt like society felt like that’s and stuff.

Cause it’s not for me. They should just be okay. That should be there, man, up. Just do it. So  it’s pretty interesting.

Carrie:  Counseling can definitely be a part of self-care for sure. Mental and emotional health. There’s something about just saying it out loud, sometimes all these things that you’ve been thinking in your head or that you’re convinced of and needing an outside perspective to say I’m not so sure about that. What about, you know, what about this way? Have you thought about it? You know, this way or, oh, that’s, I know you’re convinced of that, but that’s not how I see it. When you tell it to me, you know, you kind of say it back to them. Okay. So you’re saying this it’s, it’s just interesting and can be really freeing.

I know that there are things that come out when I either start talking about something or writing about that I didn’t even realize consciously, I was thinking. Just all of a sudden it was like, oh, oh, I guess I do. I guess I do feel angry about that now that I’ve said all that, but I didn’t realize that was bothering me so bad.

Monica: Right. Until you brought that up. Yeah. I don’t like that either. 

Carrie: Right. Yeah. So I know that sometimes Christians can push back against self-care and say, okay, well, we’re really supposed to care for other people, love one another. And that needs to be our primary focus. We’ve got to push this focus in on yourself.

That’s selfish and we need to kind of shove that to the side. What would you say to that? 

Monica: Yes, like I mentioned earlier, It seems to be a stigma attached to self-care and going to get help and saying that you need help. And I think it’s unfortunate because I am a believer. I am a love of Christ. I’m a follower of God, but I also believed the God allows in his place, people on this earth to also reach us on the earthly level.

He allows us to access doctors.  People have different specialties and he allows that to happen. And he put those here for us to use them. And it’s not a bad thing. It is okay. It doesn’t minimize your relationship with Christ. It doesn’t say that you don’t trust your belief. You don’t trust your relationship with Christ. It has no negative relation to your belief or your relationship. So those things they help, they give you somebody that you can go and talk to. That is completely safe. Whatever happens in there, unless you’re talking about hurting yourself and somebody else. You got to put that in there.

It’s a safe place. You don’t have to worry about spilling everything and then going outside and your friends know what happened, but I went to my first therapy session, it’s crazy because I went because I was encouraging someone else to go. And I was like, okay, well, if you go out, go right. So I go in with what I wanted to talk about and what I was going to discuss in there.

And while I was in my first therapy session, I heard God speak to me clearly and said, she cannot help you unless you tell her everything. I heard him. He said that to me. 

Carrie: It’s huge.

Monica:  it was huge because things that I thought no longer were an issue or issues that I had in my childhood, all that had to come up out. All of it had to come up.

And I remember I was in tears. I was just like, oh my God, how am I supposed to go to work after this. But you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge.

Carrie: That’s true. 

Monica: And one of my favorite people, I say, she’s my mentor, but she doesn’t know it. And she doesn’t even realize it exists. Yama, Vanzant, where she said, villains buried alive, don’t die.

Carrie: That’s true. 

Monica: So I had to get all of that up because that affected how I was in adulthood, things that happened as a child. I had to get that up. I had to get it out so I could deal with it, acknowledged that it was a problem. And now I can start my healing process. So I think that was important for me to hear because like I say, going to get therapy or sitting down, talking to a life coach or any of that, you don’t have to worry about being expressed or shared with anyone else, but my therapist and I love her, she helped me talk through it. She helped me to see it. Okay, well, this is what you’re doing. If this is what you want to go and do in the future, how can you do it? And you’re doing this and this, how can you have this and this?

And how are these things going to help you get to what you’re wanting to do? It helped me to map out, okay, well maybe I need to cut something else out or maybe I need to carve some time out for myself so I can think, or maybe I need the carve some time out to where I can’t always go and take care of someone else that I need to do some things for me in order.

So I can share those things with other people. And the biggest thing I remember is just hearing God clearly say she can’t help you, If you don’t tell her everything. I felt like that was God giving me permission.

Carrie: One of the things that I realized when I was looking at self-care and the Bible.

I think it’s the beginning of Mark. There’s a point where everyone’s trying to come to Jesus and they’re trying to get healed, you know, and they’re hearing about some of the miracles that he’s doing and he actually quietly slips away from the crowd and goes away to like pray and to be with God. So there’s this sense that Jesus even models for us, times where people really needed him or wanted something from him.

And he chose at that moment in time not to give it to them or not to continue to give until he got recharged through prayer and through that connection with God. I think that that’s a great model and example for us. The other thing that I think about, and I wrote a blog post on self-care a while back, I don’t know if I ever transitioned it over to the Hope for Anxiety and OCD blog, but I’ll try to do that if I haven’t already. It’s on self care.

And I talked in there about, you know, there, the second greatest commandment is love your neighbor as yourself. And if we don’t love ourselves, what does that mean for our neighbor? Kind of thinking of it, the verse in reverse in a way. I know for me, the times in my life where I was the least gracious towards others, or I was the least forgiving towards other people or loving, I was also that way towards myself.

It was like a mirror. And so the same, thing’s true for self-care, I can speak kindly to myself. I can speak kindly to other people. Sometimes self care begins in the mind in terms of what we put in our minds and what we receive in there. So that was just a couple of thoughts that I had kind of Christianity and self care.

Let’s talk about, if people aren’t engaging in self-care, maybe they’re listening to this and they feel like they’re living the life that you used to live, where they’re just going all the time and doing everything for everybody and feel like they can’t cut back. What are some small ways that people can start practicing self-care if they don’t feel like they have a lot of time to do this. Because I think sometimes when I tell my clients, you need to start practicing self-care they’re like, I don’t have time for that.

Monica:  Yeah. I have one client in particular where we’ve been talking about that for a year, and then finally it took her a minute to get it.

But when I say to people who feel like they don’t have time, the first thing is, and it might sound cliche is just to sit there and to breathe.

Now people and myself included, I was like, I’m breathing already, what do you mean

what I’m doing that next, but actually sitting there or laying there and purposely just hearing your breath, concentrate on your breath. It’s kind of taking your mind away from what you may be dealing with, would you want through? And like I said, I do have anxiety in my trigger. My main trigger is anything medical.

Imagine going through the whole coronavirus thing, going to the, I mean, it affected my sleep, it affected everything. So the first thing is just to breathe, just sit there and purposely breathe. Not thinking about anything else, just breathe. That helps me a lot with my anxiety as well. And then next people feel like they don’t have time, but sometimes this go for a five-minute walk, five minutes.

I’m in, well, I’m not talking about walking from one building to the next it work I’m talking about Just a brisk, you know, not even a brisk walk, just a walk and allow God to speak to you. I know sometimes when I haven’t worked out in awhile, I might be working out or walking and I just hear God speak to me.

I’m like, okay, hold on, hold on. I can’t get it off. You know, it allows me to clear my mind and just really question yourself when it comes to self-care. Think of yourself as worth it. You are worth taking 10, 15, 20 minutes a day. I don’t care. Another thing I like to do, I have an adult coloring book.

Now, I have a coloring book. I’m not thinking about what I’m going through. I’m like, okay, well, what color am I going to color this flower? Oh, am I stand in between the lines? It helps me to get my focus on something else. And away from something that could cause me to go into my anxiety attack or causing me not to sleep.

It’s another calmed down method.

And there are several things that you can do to help you, whether it’s decluttering, whether it’s going to spend time with your friends and family if they’re a source of peace. Just find out what gives you your peace. Everybody is worthy of peace.

And everybody is worthy to take the time to get to your peace.

Carrie:  I had a client one time that said, I don’t have time for all that self-care stuff. And this was an individual that was working 12 to 14 hour days. And I said, okay. I just want you to try one. We try one thing for me. Will you see when you get to work in the morning, we just take three deep breaths before you get out of the car and they agreed to do that.

And sometimes when you start small, you’ll see how it grows into something bigger. And maybe that might grow into that individual saying, Hey, I’m actually going to take my lunch break today. I’m actually going to take my 30 minutes or an hour and you may have to leave the property to get that lunch break.

But if that’s what you need to do, then that may be what you need to do.

Monica:  If you need to take a break from social media and on my personal Facebook page, That’s mine. And most of you take it as something that’s funny, something laughing. I’m sharing pictures of my niece and nephews, my family, my personal page.

It’s fun for me. And if stuff starts to get too bad or I see something negative, or I feel like I’m taking in too much of something. I can turn away from it because you, I give myself permission to that or that, because it can take me, is this too much? Sometimes people say, have you watched this movie?

I’m like I can’t handle that right now.  You have to do it and notice, okay, it’s not girly. It’s not,  basic feminine is something that you need for your emotional, physical and your mental health. You have to do it. And it’s like if I have something said, or whether it’s writing, writing something down or as my meditation, or if it’s just sitting and doing nothing.

I quite enjoy that. Sitting there and not doing anything. I know that that’s okay. And I know it’s necessary. So just small little things, take a breath, go for a brisk walk, start journaling, do some meditation, visit with friends and family, whatever it is that can bring you some peace or center you, start there.

Carrie: And if you’re looking for those pockets of time, you’ll find. I definitely believe that we spend so much time on our phones, scrolling through social media. And a lot of times that’s not a good way to relax.  It’s almost a way to disconnect, I believe from whatever’s going on around us in the moment.

But a lot of times its too much input and it’s too much stimulation and going on, especially before bed or things like that. We’ve got to watch out for that. And I definitely agree. Sometimes you just need to put the phone down, get off social media and say, okay, I’m going to go do something helpful and productive in my life right now that brings me peace and joy. Oh, that’s good. Tell us a little bit about your books and speaking opportunities that you’re involved.

Monica: Thank you for that. As I stated earlier, I am a two time author and it was interesting. My pastor spoke into me, you know, I do a lot of things on bullying and social media and empowerment, and self-esteem things of that sort.

And he was like, you should write a book about that. I was like, who me? What a book, who am I to write about? Right on my first book, which is called Becoming Comfortable in my Own Skin: The journey to loving me. it helped me to evaluate myself. It starts from me wanting to lose weight. And I saw a picture of myself and I just really wasn’t happy with that.

And I said, okay, well maybe I have this medical condition and that can help me give me a. You never take care of it. Right. And I was healthy as a Lark and the problem lie within me. So I was working two jobs and I was working out five days a week. And during that time, you don’t have a lot of time to do other things.

But at what I did have time for was to deal with Monic. I realized how I didn’t love myself like I should out. I didn’t even like looking at myself in the mirror because I didn’t like what I saw. So during that time, it was not so much about losing weight, but it’s the discovery of myself at 38 years old.

And while I was on that journey, I was share certain things, which I believe God led me to do. And I know he did because of the inbox starting. And people just like, okay, well, what are you doing? Or how did you get through this?  There were a lot of people who never said anything but will come ask up to me.

If they saw me in church and say, you’re really doing a good job. You know, just there was a purpose behind that. So that was my first book sharing my journey and what I did. And that’s also devotional at the end of it to help you, to start a new habit. I said 21 days, you create new habits, but I’m giving you a 30 day to put what in there, whether it is starting a new business with it as a weight loss journey, whatever it is, 21 days for 30 days to start doing something, to accomplish a goal.

And I was embarrassed at first, but when we go through things like we go through our testimony as far as testimony and that is to be shaped. So my first book is my testimony. It is my journey. And then my second book is called, as I said earlier, I do a lot of things on bullying in social media.

And while we’ll be out and about doing things, I would encounter a lot of parents who came up like I did. Somebody hit you, you hit them back and so forth and so on. The title of the book is called. I Told My Kid to Fight Back. Examining generational differences in bullying yesterday and today trying to let people know we cannot do or handle bullying or social media like we did when we were coming up for one.  We didn’t have social media.

We didn’t have those pressures. Thank God for that. And then if you’re telling your kid this view, know that they can even defend themselves.  Have you even talked to them about that? Do you know if they can defend yourself? And 99% of the time when I asked that question, they said, well, no, I don’t know, but they got to learn.

But when you’re doing that, you’re creating an environment where your kid may feel like they cannot come and talk to you because maybe they’re not prepared. There was a mother who talked to me and her daughter was getting bullied at school and she was like, you need to start taking up for yourself. You need to fight back.

You need to do this. And the daughter burst into tears. She was like, I don’t know how.

So I’m trying to show how things were when we were coming up and how things are now, and they’re completely different and you cannot handle them the same way. If you want your kids to fight back, that’s fine. But at least prepare them. Think about the repercussions and even parents discipline their children.

I talk about that in this book too. There was a particular young lady where mom was disciplining her. And of course it went viral. I talked about that in the bottom of video that I saw that was CNN, which is international news. What type it is out there on social media, on internet, out there forever. So that following your child for the rest of their life, you gotta be careful in how we do things.

So what we did in my program and around bullying and social media, that led me to write this particular book. Oh, those are the two books that I’m really. And both on Amazon and paper back and on cable and you can get them on Amazon, or you can go to Monica, lauren.com purchase some there.

Carrie: We can put the link in the show notes too, to your website so people can follow you there, or if they want a break tonight. Yes. And if they’re interested in some life coaching sessions, they can also contact dot com there as well. So we can set up some things. 

Monica: Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my little trick. 

Carrie: Yeah. So at the end of every podcast, since our name is hope for anxiety and OCD, I like to ask the guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Monica: I was really thinking about that question, really thinking about that.

What comes to me is right before I started writing my book. I had been encouraged to write my book. And within six weeks I had lost like 20 pounds. Right. And I kept hearing from God, I need to share my story, share my story, share my story. Like I said, I was embarrassed and I was also a same problem was never the best student.

I was an, a, B, C, D student all throughout my life. So share my story, write a book. I was like, I was my worst enemy. I kept doubting myself, but I believe that if God gives you the vision, he will qualify you to do what he asked you to do. And I believe I went through what I went through and go to, to share my story and encouragement that I got from God is to share my story, which is what I started in doing.

Whereas I’ve started doing and sharing it on social media. I’ve also, I’m in a process of starting a Facebook group out by my anxiety, and for the people who love me to help people who are suffering from anxiety and also help the people who love us, who don’t understand what anxiety is, how they can help.

Good support system. So I’m in the process of putting information out there to share it. And I invite other people I’m hoping. And hopefully you, I can invite you to that particular Facebook group and you can share some things, some tips and things. So my hope was that allowed me to go through these things to be an inspiration and share my testimony to others.

So even though I was my own self-worth, I mean, my own, my own worst enemy and self-doubting myself, he encouraged me and created opportunities for me to do what he asked me to do. I pulled that together by saying, be your best to. Your best believe in yourself, never give up on yourself because where you started doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where you’re going to eat.

Who would’ve thought that I would have written two books? Like I said, I wasn’t a good stuff. I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t all that, but when I stopped giving my feelings, doubting myself, being my own worst enemy, as I have accomplished and plan on accomplishing more than I ever thought I could by just allowing myself to be a vessel for God, always believing.

Carrie: Thank you. I always believe in you. And believe in what God has called you to do. If I didn’t believe that God really wanted me to do this podcast and spread these positive messages, I would have quit it a long time ago, because I can tell you that it’s not always easy. And there’s definitely been a lot of roadblocks. And it’s been a huge learning curve for me along the way. But what the piece that’s kept me going really believing that God wants me on this path and I will be on it as long as I feel like he’s leading me to do that. And the day he says, it’s time for the podcast to go, you know, the podcast will have to go, but I really just kind of wanted to echo some of the things that you were saying about that.

There’s all kinds of things that we don’t believe that we can do, but if God has called us to them and we have spiritual confidence and assurance in our faith then God will give us the tools that we need to be able to move forward and do those things that he’s asked from us. 

Monica: He will put you in the right position, right?

What you need in order to accomplish. 

Carrie: It’s been a really great conversation on self-care and just some good encouragement at the end. So thank you so much for sharing with us. 

Monica: Thank you so much Carrie for having me. I appreciate you.

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I hope this interview sparked some ideas about how you can better care for yourself.

I want to say a special thank you today to two of our supporters on buy me a coffee, Tony and David. If you aren’t familiar with the, buy me a coffee website, this is a website similar to Patron. If you’ve heard of that one where people can go on and donate to podcasters and other creative. There’s a lot of time, energy and yes, money that goes into hosting a podcast.

So if you feel so inclined to donate, you are welcome to, and the link to that will be in our show notes. I am so thankful to God for his provision of resources, to be able to do this podcast.  Thank you for listening to this.

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee.

Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.  Until next time it may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Today, we are privileged to have pastor and author, Steve Hinton as our guest.  We had a meaningful conversation about doubt and faith.  Pastor Steve also shares his journey of finding hope in the face of doubt and childhood wounding experiences.

  • Doubt as a normal part of one’s faith experience
  • What is the root of doubt?
  • Why wrestling with God is a good thing?
  • How to hear and discern God’s voice in the midst of doubt?
  • Embracing the mystery of faith
  • Seeing God through pain and suffering 
  • How can we help those who are hurting see that God is good? 
  • Pastor Steve Hinton’s book, Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt

Links and Resources:

Pastor Steve HintonBook: Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt 

Support the show 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 37

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 37. I imagine that if you’ve been following God for any length of time, at some point or another you’ve had some questions and doubts come up. How do we know that God is really good and maybe hard to come to a certain understanding of God due to past woundedness getting in the way. We’re going to talk about doubt today with pastor and author, Steve Hinton.

Carrie: Welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Steve: Thank you very much. First of all, I just want to give a thumbs up to you. The whole question of anxiety, especially today, the past couple of years, everybody’s past year, everybody’s been worried about the physical aspects of COVID. Suicide hotlines are off the charts and nobody’s really talking about the whole anxiety.

I just want to encourage you and what you’re doing. I think there is a connection to me, I’ve been in vocational ministry about 27, 28 years now. So I’ve seen all kinds of anxiety and, and had to work through some of that myself, just from some wounding in my early childhood. I grew up in the Northern Panhandle of Texas, which is kind of a conservative area.

I grew up with a general biblical Jesus worldview, but I really didn’t know Christ until I was a young teenager. I had to work through some father figure issues in my life. Couple of dads were in there. And then when my mother remarried, when I was about seven or eight, He adopted me. Jim Hinton adopted me the father one year, but he had to work through his own issues from his own childhood.

All that to say is, you know, a lot of times people get their idea of what God is, who God is by the father figure in their lives. So that bled into the book that I had written Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubts and doubts a big topic today. Carrie, I’ve been married for almost 30 years. And we have four young adult children. I’m kind of an adventurous guy and I’m looking forward to having this adventure with you. 

Carrie: Awesome. So are all your kids out of the house yet or not yet? 

Steve: Just about our third is going to junior college here in the Houston area. The youngest is a college in another state.

My oldest works for a church camp in the state of Washington. And then my second one completed a tour with the Marine Corps and he’s about to do a contract, a security contract, actually for the army in Kuwait here in a month. So we’re almost to that empty nest place, but you know, we can see the light.

Carrie: There’s a line at the end of the tunnel. I’ll just watch out sometimes they become a boomerang generation and boom, bring back. So hopefully yours will say stay launched and you and your wife can enjoy your time. 

Steve: Yes. 

Carrie: That’s awesome that you have been married for so long, having that type of background and having, you know, being involved in your children’s lives because so many people grow up in a broken situation and then they end up repeating that same pattern.

Steve: Yeah. And that was a big prayer for me, Carrie. That was a big goal for me coming into marriage and coming into parenthood thinking, man, I want to do this fight and not saying that to throw my mother or anybody under the bus but also looking at the right care, looking at society as a whole. We just have way more dysfunction played out today than what we witnessed 20, 50, a hundred years ago because a lot of these root issues that we’re talking about the anxiety, the doubt  A lot of those are the fruit of people growing up with the traditional nuclear family, not intact like it was a number of years ago. So some of the anxiety is a by-product of how we’ve constructed life today. 

Carrie: I think that sometimes when I talk with Christians in my counseling practice, there’s some shame maybe around having doubts about God or just through church ministry. People say, well, I know that I need to have faith. I know that I need to trust God.

They really struggle maybe with some sense of shame about having these doubts, do you feel like that’s a normal part of our faith experience? 

Steve:  I think it’s a practical part. I think it’s a reality today. And I resonate with what you’re saying there with the shame, and that’s actually one of the reasons I wrote the book so that people would see, here is a vocational pastor, a guy who’s vocationally in the ministry, and he wrestles with some of these questions and he’s come out of the other end. Therefore, maybe there’s hope for me as well. And even on the shame picture, you know Carrie early on in the process when I was finishing up writing, I had to ask myself this question, how raw do I want to be? Because on one hand, there’s going to be people, for example, in ministry or people who seem to feel like they’ve got it all together who might look at what I’ve written in a judgmental way, but then I thought I’m not writing it for those people.

I’m writing it for those people who are really wrestling.  Maybe with the journey of doubt, asking, what is the root behind it? And I think you’re right, some people think, yeah, if I, if I really had faith, I wouldn’t be wrestling with this. But asking what is the root behind the doubt?

Just one needing more data, Luke chapter one, God shows up and says, by the way, Mary, you’re going to have. And her question is how will this be? In other words, she accepted what God was saying, but she’s looking for some clarification. Sometimes the doubt and people maybe who are listening in and maybe they don’t know Jesus yet.

Sometimes the root of the doubt is really not data, but it is an expression of rebellion. As long as I could push this issue off, as long as I can pretend to be an atheist or agnostic, I can push off responsibility. And then also, maybe just, again, looking at the root. Is somebody doubting because they see the promises of God,

they’re trying to walk in faith, but they have these triggers and it’s really not so much about God as it is something that happened to them early in their childhood that just totally got them off rails. And they’re not able to connect the dots and, you know, they need to talk to someone like you Carrie to pull all these pieces together to realize that our God in heaven is not our biological father or our mother or our aunt or whoever that might be. 

So I think doubt happens, Elijah in the Bible, a huge man of faith, but in First Kings chapter 19, he wanted to die. He was wrestling with fear and he was also wrestling with exhaustion. So trying to acknowledge doubts there. Okay, how do we couch it? What’s going on? What is behind it? And just being honest about it.

Carrie:  Just having a sense of prayer of, I believe, but help my unbelief. 

Steve: There you are. I liked that. Yeah.

Carrie:  Yeah. I know there are some things that I’m definitely wrestling in questioning God about things that I believe that he’s spoken to my life and I don’t see the fruits of that or their fruition of that vision. And it’s really hard, but I think the wrestling part is so important. It’s an important part of our relationship with God. I don’t think it’s wrong to question at times and say, Hey, help me understand this. You know, I believe that you were speaking this into my life, but then this is what actually happened. And that just brings us closer to God to even have those conversations. It’s a different level of intimacy.

Steve:  I liked the way you finished that. You know, Carrie, the level of intimacy because sometimes the doubt will force us to move closer. We’re no longer functioning on this vending machine relationship with God. You put in your dollar bill, your quarters, your credit card, and then you get what you want.

And then sometimes like a good parent, God says, no, or God says not now. And part of the trust is stepping back and saying, okay, God, I don’t understand, but I’m going to trust that somehow.  We’ve got to reframe things. Maybe there’s something I’m not seeing clearly. Okay, God, I’m going to be patient and wait on you to clear everything up.

Carrie: Right. I wanted to add something to what you said earlier about God is our father, but God is not like your biological mother and father were to you because they’re human and they’re imperfect and God’s perfect.

I would also say that sometimes people have spiritual leaders like pastors or other people in the church that they’ve really been wounded by, and God is not those people either. And so if people have been wounded by spiritual leaders who led them towards paths that were not biblical, or, dumped a bunch of extra rules and legalism on them and excluded them from grace. God wants us those people to have a different kind of experience with him where they understand his true character.

Steve:  I think you’re spot on there, Carrie. And even in my own life, one of the greatest mentors in my life, a wonderful man of God, incredibly brilliant, but he’s very stoic, very logical.

I tend to be very ADHD and I want to go save the world and go see the world. So I’m going, into adulthood trying to process this. I don’t function the way my uncle functions. How does that play into God? And obviously, my uncle loves God and I love God and God’s doing this, but not this.

And then I start to doubt, well, did I hear from God, right? Or does God even liked me or what do I do now? So one of the things I do carry to encourage other people is I just try to point them to Jesus again and again, and again, even people who don’t know Jesus, I try to say I get it.

There are a lot of people out there who have wounded you, who have done things, maybe even false teachers, but I try to point them directly to the person of Jesus Christ, both divine and human. And that’s the perfection. No human being, no woman, no man, no matter how good they are is perfect, but Jesus Christ.

Carrie: How do you feel like God spoke to you in the midst of your doubt as you were wrestling with some of these things?

Steve:  A lot of it Carrie is just keeping my nose in the Bible on a regular basis, even times when I don’t feel it. We have to ask ourselves what are we listening to. If we’re listening to the media, the world 24/7, that’s going to cost a lot of doubt.

If we’re listening to God’s word, who are we with, I believe we’ve got to be connected to a local body of Christ. So in some of the darkest hours, I try to listen to the still small voice of God, which means you got to shut up and be quiet. But also, we’re trying to hear God’s voice.

Okay. Well, God’s given us the revelation through the scriptures. So being in the scriptures, especially the Psalms, especially the Psalms over and over and over again. And just wait.

Carrie:  Waiting is so hard sometimes when you really want an answer. I went through a divorce. That’s something that you probably don’t know about me. It was a pretty traumatic divorce a few years ago, and God told me through that process through basically three different situations like I sensed it in my spirit that God was telling me. You’re just not gonna understand that. And you need to let go of your need to understand because I wanted it to make logical sense and it just didn’t make any logical sense. So there was a mentor at church that also spoke to me as I was trying to process it with him. And he said almost the exact same words that I sense to my spirit. It was just like “Carrie, you’re going to have to let go of this need to understand because it’s just not going to make sense to you.” And I feel like there was one more situation at like came in threes and I was like, okay, God, I’m sorry that you had to tell me three times.

I’m sorry. I didn’t listen the first time, but I hear you loud and clear.  This is just something that I’m not going to be able to understand. And that’s something that’s really hard for people with OCD to sit with their level of uncertainty and doubt about the situation. I don’t know if you know that but they call OCD the doubting disease. There are always questions.

Steve:  I had not heard that, but that makes sense. There’s probably a connection with that and these control issues that I want to, why am I doubting because I want to control it and I can’t control it. 

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.  Just trying to like wrap our minds around spiritual things. Sometimes God is so much bigger and beyond where we are that we’re not going to be able to keep humanly comprehend him fully. We’re only getting the bits and pieces that we can receive. I think there’s just so much more, and I’ve learned, I guess, through some of that process also to embrace some of the mystery of my faith, that it’s faith that’s part of the process is that there are going to be things that I don’t feel know or can’t fully explain and that’s part of my connection with God. 

Steve: I think I’d put us to Kado on that. And again, part of the reason I wrote the book was to show, here’s a vocational guy who’s been in ministry for a long time, and he’s still wrestles with doubt. I have more questions now than I had when I first went to Bible college when I went to seminary, but by getting to a place where I’m able to say, okay, God. I’m okay. There are some things I’m never going to figure out, which actually means you’re bigger than I am and being at peace with that. So I think that might be a component of the doubt, being able to just rest in and again, looking at Mary. Mary, didn’t have all the details figured out, but she was able to say, okay, God, I’m your servant. You’ve given me a thumbnail sketch of what’s going on here and I’m going to trust you with the rest. 

Carrie: Yes, that’s so good. So I know one thing that can come up in, in therapy and, you know, you had your kind of own share of childhood. What I would call attachment trauma with caregivers and other people have had other experiences in childhood that maybe they went through an abusive situation and they might really be struggling with.

What would you say to someone who struggles with this idea of God being good? Because maybe they’ve experienced a certain level of trauma in their past, and you had some things that you talked about in your book in terms of growing up without a father or having various father figures in your life? And so it’s hard for us to wrap our minds around, like, okay, if God’s good, why would he allow us to go through these very painful situations? Or why would he put us in that particular family that hurt us? 

Steve: Yeah. Again, affirming them, listening to them and trying to understand them and be in their shoes. I think sometimes leaders, we try to answer too quickly until we empathize with them and then hear them. There’s the whole theological aspect the fact that we have free will, that’s why people make dumb choices. There actually is no good unless there’s the opportunity for evil, the opportunity to go against what is good because we would just be robots without them.

And then again, reframing that what we do, for example, what we think success is. You may have people in your practice who have huge incomes and huge salaries and they’re on speaking towards and things like that, but they have zero relationships with their spouse or their kids, but would we call that successful? The world would. But in my years of vocation and vocational ministry, any time I’ve been with someone when they’re on death’s door, if there is ever been a regret, it was always a relational regret. I wish things were better with my kids. I wish things were better with my spouse. It’s never a regret of I wish I made more money or something like that. So maybe reframing what is success, what is good.  I’ve talked a lot about being in the Bible and I’m thinking of the apostle Paul. If anybody would have their prayers answered, it was the apostle Paul, but he made it very, very clear and talked about the thorn in the flesh.

There was something in his life that was causing all kinds of trauma and he prayed more than once. And God says, “I’m leaving this there for your good and my glory.” So I would tell people to keep their life in the word, keep pressing in, be in the church, because these are people that can encourage you.

And you go back and you look at Thomas, you know, refer to him as doubting Thomas. He said I’m not going to believe. Well, if you look at a context, Thomas was not with the other apostles. The first time Jesus appeared to him, Thomas was out of the community and Jesus came back around and said, Thomas, look at my scars and stop doubting and believe.

But that’s an illustration as to why I say care, you’ve gotta be in community to work through these doubting issues. 

Carrie: Community is really, really powerful. One thing I’ve realized, I think through processing literally now hours and hours of traumatic material with people is two things. One, those hard situations are what builds our character.

So if we didn’t have those difficult and challenging situations, we wouldn’t be as compassionate as we are today. If I hadn’t have gone through my divorce, I wouldn’t have the understanding of grace that I have today that I’m really so incredibly thankful for. And it has allowed me to extend grace to other people. It’s taught me so much about forgiveness and so many different things that I could go into there. I talk about it in my initial episode, but if we don’t go through some of those hard stuff like God uses that in a beautiful way to really like the working of things together for good, like Romans 8:28 talks about in our lives.

And if we didn’t have all of that, we wouldn’t be the people that we are today. And God uses those things to sanctify us and grow us closer to Christ. One of the other things that I’ve realized through processing childhood trauma with Christians is often people will have this spiritual experience. It’s like once the trauma part gets cleared up, they’re able to see, look back through a different lens and recognize that God really was there for me.

And he was there the whole time, working behind the scenes. And he was always with me. He never left me. He preserved me through all of the challenging, dangerous, whatever, fill in the blank things that I went through. And that’s a really powerful experience, I think for people as well, to recognize and acknowledge, and just in terms of wrestling with the role of suffering, I guess, in our lives. 

Steve: Yeah. There’s tons of volumes on suffering and how that fits in. It circles back around to the whole question “If God’s good, why is there suffering?” And again, reframing our world and in our worldview and in our philosophy and our theology.

The reality that God allows things to happen to refine us and thinking about my own story. I came out of high school with all these doubts about who I am, went into college, and I realized pretty quickly that God had called me to preaching that aspect of ministry. And I was pretty good at that. The art, the craft of homiletics and in writing. And I began to put my identity into that. And then when I go through a period of time and I went through a period of time where nothing is working right. And then I began to realize, it’s not about my identity as the preacher. It’s my identity as Steve, just Steve.

And that’s illustrative of getting to a level of depth, relationship with God If I had not had gone through these tough times. We may say, “Where are you, God? What’s going on?” Well, the bottom line is, there’s a lesson in that.

And we do come out of that with more grace to people, more compassion to people. And we’re able to minister to people at a deeper level that we would not have been able to do so If everything happened at exactly the way we wanted it.

Carrie:  Right. What do you hope that people will experience by reading Confession?

Steve: Carrie. I hope they have a smile on their face. There’s a lot of raw material in there, but there’s some funny stuff.  And I hope that they’re able to say “I get it. I’d been there.” And you know what? there are other people who’ve gone through the tunnel. I think there’s hope I can get through the tunnel as well.

I hope that it will be an encouragement to people that they will press further and deeper into the presence of Jesus and no matter what they’re going through, they can come out at the end of the tunnel stronger and then be able to share that with other people. 

Carrie: Right. One of the things that I appreciated you sharing in the book that I felt like it would be good to bring out is this sense of like struggling with has God really forgiven me for my past mistakes. And this element of it took you a while to kind of work through some past sins. I don’t know how you would say it if like the devil was holding them over your head or you were, but it just was something that like kind of kept coming back up and coming back up for you.

A lot of Christians can really identify with that, that wrestling of really like how can we rest in God’s forgiveness and have that assurance? 

Steve: That’s a good question, Carrie. And I think you’re right that I’ve had two or three monumental peaks where I was able to look at things and say, “yeah, I own it.

I did it. That was me.” I think that’s part of the process. We can’t blame other people. We got to own it. And then being able, to surrender it to God and realize that that whole Jesus died on a cross thing. It is finished. That’s a real deal. But again, I want to come back to the community. that’s the beauty of the church.

I’m not talking about my local church, although that’s true, but the universal church that has a body. We encourage one another. And for me to affirm other people and affirm the grace and then receive that back as well. That’s why it’s so important that we have people in our lives that we be people.

And then we have people in our lives to remind us of the things we know.  We may have it in our head, but it takes a little bit longer to move that 12 inches down from our head to our heart. And that’s why we got to keep repeating it again and again and again.

Carie: Yes, absolutely. Just keep repeating like the promises that we have through scripture and in Christ. This is so important. We can’t forget those things. 

So at the end of every podcast, I like our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Carrie:  One immediate thing, here we are, we’re recording this in may, and I know it’s going to launch later, but one immediate thing is a big debt that I took about 12 years ago because I was just so certain I was following God’s lead and everything fell apart. And over the past couple of months, it’s interesting Carrie to see, here are some things I have been praying about for years that it just seems they’re falling into place. So maybe again, part of the reason I wrote the book is to say, here is a narrative to show that God is faithful and we can look at the faithful stories and in the lives of other people. But I think that that would be a situation where I’ve been praying about a few things for years and just over the past month, they’ve just been coming together. And maybe that’s an encouragement to folks to not give up. Just keep on keeping on. 

Carrie: Yes, that is really good. And there is something about persevering in prayer and waiting for God’s timing.

Steve: Yes because God’s timing is better than ours. Sometimes we’re not ready. Sometimes we are not ready for it. Sometimes other people aren’t ready for it. So it’s a waiting for it. 

Carrie: Absolutely. This was a really great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with us about doubt today. That’s good. 

Steve: Well, Carrie, thank you for the opportunity. And again, I just want to encourage you in what you’re doing because it is so vital, especially in our world today, people need hope and thank you for giving that to people. 

Carrie: Thank you. We will put all the information in the show notes. The link to where you can find the book and get in touch with Steve, if they would like.

________________________

God in his amazing, perfect timing knew that I needed to have this conversation with Steve when I did. It was such a blessing to be able to talk about these things. And I hope it was a blessing for those of you who are listening as well.

If you’re new to the show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope and developing healthier connections with God and others, specifically for Christians who may be struggling with anxiety or OCD.

For more information, you can find this online at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. 

If you’re searching for a little extra encouragement in the middle of the week, you’re welcome to follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.