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Author: Carrie Bock

Carrie Bock is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Smyrna, TN who helps people get to a deeper level of healing without compromising their faith. She specializes in working with Christians struggling with OCD who have also experienced childhood trauma, providing intensive therapy for individuals who want to heal at a faster pace than traditional therapy.

37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 37. Doubt and Faith with Pastor and Author Steve Hinton

Today, we are privileged to have pastor and author, Steve Hinton as our guest.  We had a meaningful conversation about doubt and faith.  Pastor Steve also shares his journey of finding hope in the face of doubt and childhood wounding experiences.

  • Doubt as a normal part of one’s faith experience
  • What is the root of doubt?
  • Why wrestling with God is a good thing?
  • How to hear and discern God’s voice in the midst of doubt?
  • Embracing the mystery of faith
  • Seeing God through pain and suffering 
  • How can we help those who are hurting see that God is good? 
  • Pastor Steve Hinton’s book, Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt

Links and Resources:

Pastor Steve HintonBook: Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubt 

Support the show 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 37

Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 37. I imagine that if you’ve been following God for any length of time, at some point or another you’ve had some questions and doubts come up. How do we know that God is really good and maybe hard to come to a certain understanding of God due to past woundedness getting in the way. We’re going to talk about doubt today with pastor and author, Steve Hinton.

Carrie: Welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Steve: Thank you very much. First of all, I just want to give a thumbs up to you. The whole question of anxiety, especially today, the past couple of years, everybody’s past year, everybody’s been worried about the physical aspects of COVID. Suicide hotlines are off the charts and nobody’s really talking about the whole anxiety.

I just want to encourage you and what you’re doing. I think there is a connection to me, I’ve been in vocational ministry about 27, 28 years now. So I’ve seen all kinds of anxiety and, and had to work through some of that myself, just from some wounding in my early childhood. I grew up in the Northern Panhandle of Texas, which is kind of a conservative area.

I grew up with a general biblical Jesus worldview, but I really didn’t know Christ until I was a young teenager. I had to work through some father figure issues in my life. Couple of dads were in there. And then when my mother remarried, when I was about seven or eight, He adopted me. Jim Hinton adopted me the father one year, but he had to work through his own issues from his own childhood.

All that to say is, you know, a lot of times people get their idea of what God is, who God is by the father figure in their lives. So that bled into the book that I had written Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor’s Doubts and doubts a big topic today. Carrie, I’ve been married for almost 30 years. And we have four young adult children. I’m kind of an adventurous guy and I’m looking forward to having this adventure with you. 

Carrie: Awesome. So are all your kids out of the house yet or not yet? 

Steve: Just about our third is going to junior college here in the Houston area. The youngest is a college in another state.

My oldest works for a church camp in the state of Washington. And then my second one completed a tour with the Marine Corps and he’s about to do a contract, a security contract, actually for the army in Kuwait here in a month. So we’re almost to that empty nest place, but you know, we can see the light.

Carrie: There’s a line at the end of the tunnel. I’ll just watch out sometimes they become a boomerang generation and boom, bring back. So hopefully yours will say stay launched and you and your wife can enjoy your time. 

Steve: Yes. 

Carrie: That’s awesome that you have been married for so long, having that type of background and having, you know, being involved in your children’s lives because so many people grow up in a broken situation and then they end up repeating that same pattern.

Steve: Yeah. And that was a big prayer for me, Carrie. That was a big goal for me coming into marriage and coming into parenthood thinking, man, I want to do this fight and not saying that to throw my mother or anybody under the bus but also looking at the right care, looking at society as a whole. We just have way more dysfunction played out today than what we witnessed 20, 50, a hundred years ago because a lot of these root issues that we’re talking about the anxiety, the doubt  A lot of those are the fruit of people growing up with the traditional nuclear family, not intact like it was a number of years ago. So some of the anxiety is a by-product of how we’ve constructed life today. 

Carrie: I think that sometimes when I talk with Christians in my counseling practice, there’s some shame maybe around having doubts about God or just through church ministry. People say, well, I know that I need to have faith. I know that I need to trust God.

They really struggle maybe with some sense of shame about having these doubts, do you feel like that’s a normal part of our faith experience? 

Steve:  I think it’s a practical part. I think it’s a reality today. And I resonate with what you’re saying there with the shame, and that’s actually one of the reasons I wrote the book so that people would see, here is a vocational pastor, a guy who’s vocationally in the ministry, and he wrestles with some of these questions and he’s come out of the other end. Therefore, maybe there’s hope for me as well. And even on the shame picture, you know Carrie early on in the process when I was finishing up writing, I had to ask myself this question, how raw do I want to be? Because on one hand, there’s going to be people, for example, in ministry or people who seem to feel like they’ve got it all together who might look at what I’ve written in a judgmental way, but then I thought I’m not writing it for those people.

I’m writing it for those people who are really wrestling.  Maybe with the journey of doubt, asking, what is the root behind it? And I think you’re right, some people think, yeah, if I, if I really had faith, I wouldn’t be wrestling with this. But asking what is the root behind the doubt?

Just one needing more data, Luke chapter one, God shows up and says, by the way, Mary, you’re going to have. And her question is how will this be? In other words, she accepted what God was saying, but she’s looking for some clarification. Sometimes the doubt and people maybe who are listening in and maybe they don’t know Jesus yet.

Sometimes the root of the doubt is really not data, but it is an expression of rebellion. As long as I could push this issue off, as long as I can pretend to be an atheist or agnostic, I can push off responsibility. And then also, maybe just, again, looking at the root. Is somebody doubting because they see the promises of God,

they’re trying to walk in faith, but they have these triggers and it’s really not so much about God as it is something that happened to them early in their childhood that just totally got them off rails. And they’re not able to connect the dots and, you know, they need to talk to someone like you Carrie to pull all these pieces together to realize that our God in heaven is not our biological father or our mother or our aunt or whoever that might be. 

So I think doubt happens, Elijah in the Bible, a huge man of faith, but in First Kings chapter 19, he wanted to die. He was wrestling with fear and he was also wrestling with exhaustion. So trying to acknowledge doubts there. Okay, how do we couch it? What’s going on? What is behind it? And just being honest about it.

Carrie:  Just having a sense of prayer of, I believe, but help my unbelief. 

Steve: There you are. I liked that. Yeah.

Carrie:  Yeah. I know there are some things that I’m definitely wrestling in questioning God about things that I believe that he’s spoken to my life and I don’t see the fruits of that or their fruition of that vision. And it’s really hard, but I think the wrestling part is so important. It’s an important part of our relationship with God. I don’t think it’s wrong to question at times and say, Hey, help me understand this. You know, I believe that you were speaking this into my life, but then this is what actually happened. And that just brings us closer to God to even have those conversations. It’s a different level of intimacy.

Steve:  I liked the way you finished that. You know, Carrie, the level of intimacy because sometimes the doubt will force us to move closer. We’re no longer functioning on this vending machine relationship with God. You put in your dollar bill, your quarters, your credit card, and then you get what you want.

And then sometimes like a good parent, God says, no, or God says not now. And part of the trust is stepping back and saying, okay, God, I don’t understand, but I’m going to trust that somehow.  We’ve got to reframe things. Maybe there’s something I’m not seeing clearly. Okay, God, I’m going to be patient and wait on you to clear everything up.

Carrie: Right. I wanted to add something to what you said earlier about God is our father, but God is not like your biological mother and father were to you because they’re human and they’re imperfect and God’s perfect.

I would also say that sometimes people have spiritual leaders like pastors or other people in the church that they’ve really been wounded by, and God is not those people either. And so if people have been wounded by spiritual leaders who led them towards paths that were not biblical, or, dumped a bunch of extra rules and legalism on them and excluded them from grace. God wants us those people to have a different kind of experience with him where they understand his true character.

Steve:  I think you’re spot on there, Carrie. And even in my own life, one of the greatest mentors in my life, a wonderful man of God, incredibly brilliant, but he’s very stoic, very logical.

I tend to be very ADHD and I want to go save the world and go see the world. So I’m going, into adulthood trying to process this. I don’t function the way my uncle functions. How does that play into God? And obviously, my uncle loves God and I love God and God’s doing this, but not this.

And then I start to doubt, well, did I hear from God, right? Or does God even liked me or what do I do now? So one of the things I do carry to encourage other people is I just try to point them to Jesus again and again, and again, even people who don’t know Jesus, I try to say I get it.

There are a lot of people out there who have wounded you, who have done things, maybe even false teachers, but I try to point them directly to the person of Jesus Christ, both divine and human. And that’s the perfection. No human being, no woman, no man, no matter how good they are is perfect, but Jesus Christ.

Carrie: How do you feel like God spoke to you in the midst of your doubt as you were wrestling with some of these things?

Steve:  A lot of it Carrie is just keeping my nose in the Bible on a regular basis, even times when I don’t feel it. We have to ask ourselves what are we listening to. If we’re listening to the media, the world 24/7, that’s going to cost a lot of doubt.

If we’re listening to God’s word, who are we with, I believe we’ve got to be connected to a local body of Christ. So in some of the darkest hours, I try to listen to the still small voice of God, which means you got to shut up and be quiet. But also, we’re trying to hear God’s voice.

Okay. Well, God’s given us the revelation through the scriptures. So being in the scriptures, especially the Psalms, especially the Psalms over and over and over again. And just wait.

Carrie:  Waiting is so hard sometimes when you really want an answer. I went through a divorce. That’s something that you probably don’t know about me. It was a pretty traumatic divorce a few years ago, and God told me through that process through basically three different situations like I sensed it in my spirit that God was telling me. You’re just not gonna understand that. And you need to let go of your need to understand because I wanted it to make logical sense and it just didn’t make any logical sense. So there was a mentor at church that also spoke to me as I was trying to process it with him. And he said almost the exact same words that I sense to my spirit. It was just like “Carrie, you’re going to have to let go of this need to understand because it’s just not going to make sense to you.” And I feel like there was one more situation at like came in threes and I was like, okay, God, I’m sorry that you had to tell me three times.

I’m sorry. I didn’t listen the first time, but I hear you loud and clear.  This is just something that I’m not going to be able to understand. And that’s something that’s really hard for people with OCD to sit with their level of uncertainty and doubt about the situation. I don’t know if you know that but they call OCD the doubting disease. There are always questions.

Steve:  I had not heard that, but that makes sense. There’s probably a connection with that and these control issues that I want to, why am I doubting because I want to control it and I can’t control it. 

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.  Just trying to like wrap our minds around spiritual things. Sometimes God is so much bigger and beyond where we are that we’re not going to be able to keep humanly comprehend him fully. We’re only getting the bits and pieces that we can receive. I think there’s just so much more, and I’ve learned, I guess, through some of that process also to embrace some of the mystery of my faith, that it’s faith that’s part of the process is that there are going to be things that I don’t feel know or can’t fully explain and that’s part of my connection with God. 

Steve: I think I’d put us to Kado on that. And again, part of the reason I wrote the book was to show, here’s a vocational guy who’s been in ministry for a long time, and he’s still wrestles with doubt. I have more questions now than I had when I first went to Bible college when I went to seminary, but by getting to a place where I’m able to say, okay, God. I’m okay. There are some things I’m never going to figure out, which actually means you’re bigger than I am and being at peace with that. So I think that might be a component of the doubt, being able to just rest in and again, looking at Mary. Mary, didn’t have all the details figured out, but she was able to say, okay, God, I’m your servant. You’ve given me a thumbnail sketch of what’s going on here and I’m going to trust you with the rest. 

Carrie: Yes, that’s so good. So I know one thing that can come up in, in therapy and, you know, you had your kind of own share of childhood. What I would call attachment trauma with caregivers and other people have had other experiences in childhood that maybe they went through an abusive situation and they might really be struggling with.

What would you say to someone who struggles with this idea of God being good? Because maybe they’ve experienced a certain level of trauma in their past, and you had some things that you talked about in your book in terms of growing up without a father or having various father figures in your life? And so it’s hard for us to wrap our minds around, like, okay, if God’s good, why would he allow us to go through these very painful situations? Or why would he put us in that particular family that hurt us? 

Steve: Yeah. Again, affirming them, listening to them and trying to understand them and be in their shoes. I think sometimes leaders, we try to answer too quickly until we empathize with them and then hear them. There’s the whole theological aspect the fact that we have free will, that’s why people make dumb choices. There actually is no good unless there’s the opportunity for evil, the opportunity to go against what is good because we would just be robots without them.

And then again, reframing that what we do, for example, what we think success is. You may have people in your practice who have huge incomes and huge salaries and they’re on speaking towards and things like that, but they have zero relationships with their spouse or their kids, but would we call that successful? The world would. But in my years of vocation and vocational ministry, any time I’ve been with someone when they’re on death’s door, if there is ever been a regret, it was always a relational regret. I wish things were better with my kids. I wish things were better with my spouse. It’s never a regret of I wish I made more money or something like that. So maybe reframing what is success, what is good.  I’ve talked a lot about being in the Bible and I’m thinking of the apostle Paul. If anybody would have their prayers answered, it was the apostle Paul, but he made it very, very clear and talked about the thorn in the flesh.

There was something in his life that was causing all kinds of trauma and he prayed more than once. And God says, “I’m leaving this there for your good and my glory.” So I would tell people to keep their life in the word, keep pressing in, be in the church, because these are people that can encourage you.

And you go back and you look at Thomas, you know, refer to him as doubting Thomas. He said I’m not going to believe. Well, if you look at a context, Thomas was not with the other apostles. The first time Jesus appeared to him, Thomas was out of the community and Jesus came back around and said, Thomas, look at my scars and stop doubting and believe.

But that’s an illustration as to why I say care, you’ve gotta be in community to work through these doubting issues. 

Carrie: Community is really, really powerful. One thing I’ve realized, I think through processing literally now hours and hours of traumatic material with people is two things. One, those hard situations are what builds our character.

So if we didn’t have those difficult and challenging situations, we wouldn’t be as compassionate as we are today. If I hadn’t have gone through my divorce, I wouldn’t have the understanding of grace that I have today that I’m really so incredibly thankful for. And it has allowed me to extend grace to other people. It’s taught me so much about forgiveness and so many different things that I could go into there. I talk about it in my initial episode, but if we don’t go through some of those hard stuff like God uses that in a beautiful way to really like the working of things together for good, like Romans 8:28 talks about in our lives.

And if we didn’t have all of that, we wouldn’t be the people that we are today. And God uses those things to sanctify us and grow us closer to Christ. One of the other things that I’ve realized through processing childhood trauma with Christians is often people will have this spiritual experience. It’s like once the trauma part gets cleared up, they’re able to see, look back through a different lens and recognize that God really was there for me.

And he was there the whole time, working behind the scenes. And he was always with me. He never left me. He preserved me through all of the challenging, dangerous, whatever, fill in the blank things that I went through. And that’s a really powerful experience, I think for people as well, to recognize and acknowledge, and just in terms of wrestling with the role of suffering, I guess, in our lives. 

Steve: Yeah. There’s tons of volumes on suffering and how that fits in. It circles back around to the whole question “If God’s good, why is there suffering?” And again, reframing our world and in our worldview and in our philosophy and our theology.

The reality that God allows things to happen to refine us and thinking about my own story. I came out of high school with all these doubts about who I am, went into college, and I realized pretty quickly that God had called me to preaching that aspect of ministry. And I was pretty good at that. The art, the craft of homiletics and in writing. And I began to put my identity into that. And then when I go through a period of time and I went through a period of time where nothing is working right. And then I began to realize, it’s not about my identity as the preacher. It’s my identity as Steve, just Steve.

And that’s illustrative of getting to a level of depth, relationship with God If I had not had gone through these tough times. We may say, “Where are you, God? What’s going on?” Well, the bottom line is, there’s a lesson in that.

And we do come out of that with more grace to people, more compassion to people. And we’re able to minister to people at a deeper level that we would not have been able to do so If everything happened at exactly the way we wanted it.

Carrie:  Right. What do you hope that people will experience by reading Confession?

Steve: Carrie. I hope they have a smile on their face. There’s a lot of raw material in there, but there’s some funny stuff.  And I hope that they’re able to say “I get it. I’d been there.” And you know what? there are other people who’ve gone through the tunnel. I think there’s hope I can get through the tunnel as well.

I hope that it will be an encouragement to people that they will press further and deeper into the presence of Jesus and no matter what they’re going through, they can come out at the end of the tunnel stronger and then be able to share that with other people. 

Carrie: Right. One of the things that I appreciated you sharing in the book that I felt like it would be good to bring out is this sense of like struggling with has God really forgiven me for my past mistakes. And this element of it took you a while to kind of work through some past sins. I don’t know how you would say it if like the devil was holding them over your head or you were, but it just was something that like kind of kept coming back up and coming back up for you.

A lot of Christians can really identify with that, that wrestling of really like how can we rest in God’s forgiveness and have that assurance? 

Steve: That’s a good question, Carrie. And I think you’re right that I’ve had two or three monumental peaks where I was able to look at things and say, “yeah, I own it.

I did it. That was me.” I think that’s part of the process. We can’t blame other people. We got to own it. And then being able, to surrender it to God and realize that that whole Jesus died on a cross thing. It is finished. That’s a real deal. But again, I want to come back to the community. that’s the beauty of the church.

I’m not talking about my local church, although that’s true, but the universal church that has a body. We encourage one another. And for me to affirm other people and affirm the grace and then receive that back as well. That’s why it’s so important that we have people in our lives that we be people.

And then we have people in our lives to remind us of the things we know.  We may have it in our head, but it takes a little bit longer to move that 12 inches down from our head to our heart. And that’s why we got to keep repeating it again and again and again.

Carie: Yes, absolutely. Just keep repeating like the promises that we have through scripture and in Christ. This is so important. We can’t forget those things. 

So at the end of every podcast, I like our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Carrie:  One immediate thing, here we are, we’re recording this in may, and I know it’s going to launch later, but one immediate thing is a big debt that I took about 12 years ago because I was just so certain I was following God’s lead and everything fell apart. And over the past couple of months, it’s interesting Carrie to see, here are some things I have been praying about for years that it just seems they’re falling into place. So maybe again, part of the reason I wrote the book is to say, here is a narrative to show that God is faithful and we can look at the faithful stories and in the lives of other people. But I think that that would be a situation where I’ve been praying about a few things for years and just over the past month, they’ve just been coming together. And maybe that’s an encouragement to folks to not give up. Just keep on keeping on. 

Carrie: Yes, that is really good. And there is something about persevering in prayer and waiting for God’s timing.

Steve: Yes because God’s timing is better than ours. Sometimes we’re not ready. Sometimes we are not ready for it. Sometimes other people aren’t ready for it. So it’s a waiting for it. 

Carrie: Absolutely. This was a really great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with us about doubt today. That’s good. 

Steve: Well, Carrie, thank you for the opportunity. And again, I just want to encourage you in what you’re doing because it is so vital, especially in our world today, people need hope and thank you for giving that to people. 

Carrie: Thank you. We will put all the information in the show notes. The link to where you can find the book and get in touch with Steve, if they would like.

________________________

God in his amazing, perfect timing knew that I needed to have this conversation with Steve when I did. It was such a blessing to be able to talk about these things. And I hope it was a blessing for those of you who are listening as well.

If you’re new to the show, we are all about reducing shame, increasing hope and developing healthier connections with God and others, specifically for Christians who may be struggling with anxiety or OCD.

For more information, you can find this online at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. 

If you’re searching for a little extra encouragement in the middle of the week, you’re welcome to follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

Podcasts Carrie has been on

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on Podcasts Carrie has been on

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Carrie Bock, LPC-MHSP has appeared on several different podcasts to cover a variety of topics and to promote the Hope for Anxiety and OCD podcast.

Ayan Robin Dixon of Circle 31 International Women’s Ministry interviews Carrie about her experience as a former foster mom.

Joe Sanok interviews Carrie about how to start a private practice and transition off insurance.

Adam Kol asks Carrie’s advice on how to use insurance coverage for counseling, how to obtain low-cost or free opportunities for counseling and how to find a therapist that’s right for you.

Tracy Lowery asks all kinds of questions about everything from finding a counselor to understanding suffering as a Christian.

Brian and Carrie discuss prayer and anxiety by using the movie War Room as a jumping off point.

Carrie breaks anxiety down in an easy to understand way in Jeff Allen’s first episode.

Carrie discusses the process she has created for attracting and onboarding the clients she enjoys working with most.

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36. Using Brainspotting for Anxiety and OCD with Brooke Randolph, LMHC

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 36. Using Brainspotting for Anxiety and OCD with Brooke Randolph, LMHC

I had the privilege of interviewing Brooke Randolph, a licensed mental health counselor and a Brainspotting trainer.  Brooke shares with us her insights and knowledge on Brainspotting.  She also gives some advice for those who are considering adoption based on her experience as a single adoptive mom and as a Brainspotting consultant specializing in adoption. 

  • What is Brainspotting? How does it work? 
  • How was Brainspotting developed? Who discovered it?
  • How can Brainspotting help with anxiety and OCD?
  • What happens during and after a Brainspotting session
  • Can Brainspotting be used with all ages? 
  • Brainspotting training
  • Comparison between Branspotting and other forms of therapy.

Links and resources:

Brooke Randolph, LMHC
Counseling At The Green House

Support the show 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 36

Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 36. On today’s episode, I have an interview with Brooke Randolph who is a brainspotting trainer and therapist. Brainspotting has some similarities to EMDR in that they’re both seeking to work at a brain level to help people heal from internal disturbance. So it was neat to have that conversation and look at some of the similarities and differences.

If you caught our episode with Peyton Garland, which was a personal story where she talks about her experience with OCD and her experience with brainspotting. I know you’re going to want to check out this episode as a follow-up.

Carrie:  Brooke, welcome to the show. 

Brooke: Thank you. 

Carrie: And tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Brooke: Well, I am a licensed mental health counselor. So I’m a therapist who lives in Indiana, but I also in licensed in Massachusetts and I run a group practice here in Indianapolis. So we are currently up to 10 clinicians. I am also a single adoptive mom to a 14-year-old boy. So that makes me rugby mom those days of the week.

Carrie: Wow. Okay. I know very well about rugby. 

Brooke: I very much enjoy rugby. I like showing it to people. So maybe you can come to a game and I can keep you past that. 

Carrie: That would be interesting. How old was your son when you adopted him? 

Brooke: He was six. 

Carrie: Oh, okay. Awesome. Let me tell you about how this show actually came about. So we had a guest on our show Peyton Garland, and she came out with a book called Not So By Myself about her experience with OCD. And she was sharing about the book and how she went through brainspotting with her therapist, or was still in the process of going through those sessions. And I said, oh wow. I haven’t had anybody on about brainspotting. That would be really fun. So then I found you on Facebook and we got connected. And so we’re here to learn all about brainspotting today, how it can be helpful for anxiety and OCD. I’m super excited about that. So maybe we can just start by, just tell us a little bit about brainspotting even like how you would explain it to a client maybe that was coming in for the first time.

Brooke: Yeah, brainspotting is really exciting. It would be what I call a power therapy that helps us get deeper into the neural networks of the brain. And really what it does is it’s going to allow the brain to heal itself. And as we tune into what’s going on in the brain and what’s going on in the body, the brain is able to lead the processing in a way that’s so much more efficient than when we try to talk through something. Because when we’re talking, we’re really only going towards that neocortex, that front part of the brain. And the neocortex is not involved in regulation, which means it can’t make you feel better. And so when we’re feeling anxious or upset about something, it’s going to be much more effective If we can utilize the parts of the brain that are involved with regulation to help us process those things so that we’re not only doing the processing but also calming the brain and the body at the same time.

Carrie: That’s really good. I like that a lot. We can really get in there. I don’t know if you want to call it defenses in our thinking part of our brain, right? There’s all these layers that protect us maybe from our emotions and keep us from really going there, but when you’re able to find therapies that tap into that like the limbic system response, then that’s a whole different ball game.

Brooke: When I also explained to people, I worked from everything from children who were adopted internationally at young ages to really five functioning achievers. And if these high functioning achievers could have thought their way out of the problem, thought their way out of how they’re feeling, they would have done that. Many of them are much more educated than I am. If they could have thought their way out of it, they would have done it, but they can’t. So we need to go in deeper into the brain. 

And then for these other, these kids who may have memories that are not stored in the English language, because they were in another language at that time, or maybe they’re implicit memories that are pre-verbal and you can’t process those things from the neocortex. That requires language. So we need to be able to get more into the body and deeper in the brain. 

Carrie: Right. I’m curious for you because I think therapists find different therapies to be trained in. I have a theory on this. I’ve never done any research, but my theory is that we find things either that have helped us. We’ve seen these things, help our clients, or it’s just kind of aligns with our personality.

How did you get involved in training and brainspotting like becoming trained on that?

Brooke:  Well, I’ll tell you the story, but it’s probably goes to that part where it aligns with my personality and the deeper I get into brainspotting, the more I recognized that the principal tenants are just right along with my theory of counseling. But for me, I work primarily in adoption and I have these very early trauma, early parental separation kinds of cases. And I knew that there were like our therapies like EMDR that were really effective like we have plenty of research to show that, but also knowing the potential for overwhelm. And I’m very protective of my adoptee clients, especially my young adoptee clients. And so knowing that potential for overwhelm, I was just kind of dragging my feet really on that.

And then someone came and told me about brainspotting and I heard about it from somebody I trusted. And then I went and did a bunch of reading and I immediately started referring my clients to “okay. I think you also need to go do this.” And so here’s somebody locally. We had a few people locally who were already trained. And so why don’t you go do that? And then meet with me every other week and meet with them. And a couple of my clients did try it and one of them just put his foot down and he said, “I’m going to go see anybody else. You need to get trained now.” You know what I said? “I’m going to get trained in this.” I’m definitely like I really believe in it. And he was like “you need to get trained now.”

And what are the DVDs and started from there and did the training at home. And then very quickly helped to bring a trainer to Indianapolis so that we could have a training here and did that. And then just continued from there until the point that now I’m a brain spotting specialist trainer.

Carrie: Wow. So you’re actually training other therapists to do this as well and supervising people that are in that process. That’s pretty awesome. Yeah. It just seemed to fit and it was really helping your clients and then you decided to get trained in that. How exactly does it work? I know that’s a hard question.

Brooke: Yeah. So, I mean, Most people want to compare it to EMDR. Brainspotting was kind of discovered and developed by David Grant who was a master EMDR trainer. So he was very influenced by EMDR, but he was also very influenced by somatic experiencing and insight-oriented relational therapy and some other kinds of things.

And so they all kind of play a role. We get from somatic experiencing is really being aware of the activation in the body.  We’re talking about OCD here. And so if we have someone who has some compulsion to pull a hair or to touch something or to turn right, but asking them to really locate where in the body is that starting and turning them into making that brain-body connection.

When you make the comparison with EMDR where they’re using rapid eye movement, brainspotting is actually a fixed eye position. And so one of the ways that I explain to people about this is that a fixed eye position is going to be less activating. And you really just think about it. If you were staring down like this tiger who’s just staring at you, that’s really intense. But if you start to imagine that tiger pacing back and forth in front of you and your eyes have to fall, like suddenly the anxiety starts going up a little bit and people can feel that when I’m presenting at a conference or something then I just demonstrate like walking across the stage like they can feel it like a fixed eye position is less activating than eye movements. And so that’s just part of how we are able to make it. More flexible, less activating. If necessary for people, we can really make adjustments in the moment, which is what I like about it. That we can be very attuned to the specific client and what they need and help them have the processing that they need, whether that’s helping them turn up the activation. For people like me with chronic pain, who’s learned to ignore my body or turning down the activation for people who have just had too much trauma and can’t go all the way into. 

Carrie: Yeah. I’m glad that you went into that because when you started explaining it, it sounds like it’s really good for people who have these app reactions with EMDR, where they’re just sobbing uncontrollably and they’re feeling just really intense sensations in their body and have a tendency maybe to want to get out of that. But you’re saying it also works for people that have difficulty accessing maybe body sensations or emotions. It can help them develop that process. 

So there are some similar components in terms of it’s a mind, you say it’s a mind, body emotion therapy like you’re making those connections. 

Brooke: Yeah. They say it’s a brain-body, mindfulness-based therapy. I’ll check the website to make sure I got all the words that are in.

Carrie:  Do you usually start with some mindfulness activities? Is that part of the preparation before you go in and do the more traumatic work?

Brooke: It completely depends on the client. So one of the principles of brainspotting that I really love is there is no protocol. Because we’re very focused on the client, then a relational attunement and being attuned to the client. Therapy can’t be attunement based if there’s a protocol, if there’s steps that are involved.

And if we’ve decided that these steps are these steps for everyone, then it’s going to miss some people who that might not be because some people are going to need in-between steps and some people are going to need to skip the steps like I was that high achiever or in school and was always frustrated that they were teaching to kind of the lowest common denominator, which is what they have to do.

But for me, It missed things for me. My education wasn’t attuned to me, but I want therapy to always be attuned to my class. So we don’t necessarily have a protocol. And so for some clients, we may be doing mindfulness activities ahead of time. We may be introducing other things. Some people may come in and just start telling us about the presenting problem.

And we already noticed that they’re on a fixed eye position. And so we may just invite them to stay on that spot, whatever it is that they’re looking at it way. And let it go from there. And so that may not be the full set-up necessarily, but they’re getting into it. And so we can kind of work. It’s very flexible. We follow our clients and what they need. 

Carrie: It’s very interesting because I think my personality goes to like a “that’s too unstructured for me” like having a little internal moment. I think I really like structured therapies.

Brooke: Do you like it as the therapist or r do you like it as the client?

Carrie: I think I like it both because I think if I’m the client, I want to know where we’re going and what we’re doing. And I want it to kind of have a logical sequence to it and feel like there’s a good beginning, middle and end. And I think even with therapies like EMDR that have protocols, your therapist really has to know how to tailor that to you as the client. Kind of what you’re saying in terms of attunement.  I think that you can have attunement with some of those structured therapies, but you just have to be very careful if you find like your therapist that you’re working with is like too rigid. And they’re like, we have to do this now like you said, we have to do this next step. And that next step, you may not be ready for.

Just for the people listening out there,  I think you have to communicate and advocate for yourself as well to say “I don’t know something about this. This just doesn’t feel right.” Or maybe I’m just not quite ready for that deeper level of processing things yet. I’ve in my own work over the last probably couple years now, I’ve been incorporating ego state therapy, which has made the EMDR process more tolerable and a lot less in terms of reactions, more attachment, needs getting met.

That’s a whole another story, but this is interesting to me because different people are going to respond to different types of therapies in different ways. And one of the reasons I like to talk about so many different types of therapy on the show is not so we can have a discussion about, oh, this one’s better.

That one’s better, but more like to give people options like here’s your menu because I think a lot of people go into therapy and they’re like, yeah, I tried therapy. I’m like, Yeah but what did you do, like tell me more about that because there are a zillion different therapy techniques out there.

There’s a zillion different therapists personality styles. And it’s very hard to say like, oh, I’ve tried therapy. Like I’ve tried green peas and I don’t like him, you know, there’s just so many options out there. So this is, this was really interesting. I think you’ve kind of, you’ve talked about how.

This is a little bit different form of trauma therapy in a sense you’re kind of combining, like after they find the fixed eye movement, are you combining a little bit of talk therapy like if they want to tell that story or if they’re wanting to talk about the experience or what they’re noticing in their body?

Brooke:  Oh, absolutely. I always say to clients, you can talk as much or as little as you want to. And what it looks like is different for each individual based on what they mean. I think as a client myself, I initially was much quieter and would have to say things out loud when I felt like I was like a broken record like you kept coming back to the same thought, but I found that I  continue, I’m much more verbal that it kind of keeps pushing me forward. So I think it’s going to be different for people even in different stages. 

Carrie: Right. For part of your training or certification process, did you have to have this done to you basically? Did you have a practicum where you practiced on each other?

Brooke:  Yeah that’s built into all the trainings. All the phase training and all the speciality trainings all have kind of demos and practicums and debrief from there s we have that opportunity to experience it. And we really do encourage therapists to do their own work and to continue to do their own work. And so finding whether that’s a practice partner or a peer support group, or just finding your own brainspotting therapist and sticking with that. 

Carrie: Yeah. That’s definitely so valuable and something that really helps us grow as therapists is to be the client for a period, for a season and come back around to it when we need to, as things come up in our personal lives or our professional life. Probably one of the biggest variables that’s made me a better clinician. I’d say getting my own therapy.

So, can you talk with us a little bit more specifically about how you’ve seen maybe this be helpful, brainspotting for anxiety and OCD?

Brooke: Yeah, I mean, in general, it’s just going to help lower that activation and we can see that pretty immediately.  OCD, there are setups and discussions around that particularly. And what we’re doing allowing the brain to process, but also giving the brain something new. The brain is holding on to that obsession or that compulsion because it feels good in some way.

And so until we get something that’s better, it’s going to have a hard time letting go of that. You can think of that similarly to like any kind of addiction. If I really like eating Stroop waffles, my son really likes eating Stroop waffles. And to just say, I’m never going to do this again is hard, but when you say like, I have this thing, that’s better but I’m going to have this really sweet mango and not only does it taste good, but then I feel better and I have more energy. And once your brain can recognize that, it’s a lot easier to let go of what might be overly sugary or something that may be beneficial for you. I mean, that’s a fluff example.

Carrie: Sure. Well, I think it’s important for people to understand that our brains do change, can change and do change over time. And that we may be kind of stuck in this well-worn neural pathway that’s not working for us, a maladaptive neural network. And we can make changes to that and forge a new path in our brain. It’s not easy. It takes some time and practice just kind of like walking through a new path in the woods takes time and practice and intentionality, but it can happen. So that’s part of this process.

Brooke: We know neuroplasticity. And this just seems to be a faster way to get to it, but even then when we can’t always explain it to see the changes that come about and how it seems so much easier to do something different suddenly after doing brain spotting.

Carrie:  Do you find that people pursue this after having received some talk therapy at times and feeling like, yeah, I’ve kind of talked maybe through some of my traumas, but I don’t really feel like they’re fully processed or I’m still having the effects of some of them. 

Brooke: Yeah. I think if the people who are looking for brainspotting, it’s either because they’ve tried something and it’s not answering everything for them or someone else’s recommending it to them. Generally, although I do have people who are just doing an internet search and come up and they’re like, oh, so I read this thing on your website.

Yeah. And that sounds really interesting. Let’s can we do that? Yes, of course. You know, so I think there’s probably lots of ways, but it’s not as well known at this point. Most people are going to come at it after they’ve tried other things. 

Carrie: Great. Do you know, like when brainspotting was developed?

Brooke: in 2003.

Carrie: Okay. So it’s a newer form of therapy maybe that hasn’t had as much research as other things.

Brooke: Right. I mean, research takes a lot of time and a lot of money, the library of researches is smaller. This, you know, it’s much more experiential colloquially, all kinds of spreading kind of that way. Grassroots at this point.

Carrie: Okay. And you said the brainspotting can be used with all ages.

Brooke: In fact, Monica Bauman from Austria recently wrote a book. She wrote it in English, Brainspotting with Children and Adolescents. And in that book, she tells this amazing story about working with an infant. 

Carrie: Wow. 

Brooke: And it’s an amazing, beautiful story.

Carrie: So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which you received hope from God or another person. 

Brooke: That’s a great question. I think I have moments of hope most days. I think, you know, looking at the possibility. Some recent ones would just be conversations.

I’m having with people who are for me, the National Association of Adoptees and Parents. And they’re wanting to get me as part of their committee. And like, these are all the different ways that you can make a difference like that to me has a lot of hope in that. We’re looking at that, looking at the vaccine, coming out for adolescents next. For my family, that’s really helpful. My son is really looking forward to that. It will probably be the first time he’s gotten a shot that I won’t have to have held him down because he believes in that. So that’s hope. And for us, that’s hope that we may be able to travel again. And just all the things that we are looking forward to.

Carrie: Do you have any advice for people that might be looking into adoption as an option? 

Brooke: Yeah, start your therapy. Now my recommendation, and really explore that and explore what is bringing you to adoption and get lots of different perspectives, because I think there are some messages out there. And if we are in a silo, you may not realize how very different other perspectives can be.

Carrie: That’s good. That’s good to have just kind of a well-rounded perspective on adoption. Do you say that and, sorry, this is an interest of mine only because I’ve been a former foster parent. So would you say start your therapy now because these kids are dealing with so much emotional baggage or they’re bringing that with them and that’s really going to trigger up your own emotional baggage.

Brooke: Yes, absolutely. So you, as a parent, whether that’s an adoptive parent or a foster parent. I’d probably say any parents, but you need to be working through things so that you can best show up for your kids. You can’t lead them to any kind of healing that you haven’t been able to find for yourself, that if you are struggling with being impatient. I mean how you’re what were you going to teach your kids patience. Finding those things and also absolutely. You said it wonderfully like they’re going to stir up anything that’s unprocessed in you. And I would say anything in everything. Kids and partners are really great at helping us reveal our areas in need of growth.

But just also, you know, adaptive parenting and foster parenting is really advance, It’s therapeutic parenting. It is hard and you need support and they have additional layers and additional issues that continue throughout their development and for you to be able to show up and help them with those things. You’ve gotta be able to take yourself out of that equation. You can’t be taking it personally. In one of my presentations, I talk about how, whenever my son in early ages would say like, you’re not my real mom, but I never took that personally because it wasn’t about me. I was literally about how he was feeling in that moment.

But now when he tells me you’re the best mommy ever. I don’t take that personally either because I also need to look and see that, where is this coming from. And is this actually a sentiment, or maybe he’s saying it because he has a need to connect and can I meet him where he needs to connect and again hearing the needs behind everything.

Carrie:  Or he’s trying to butter you up really well for something.

Brooke: For Sure. That may also be it. He is amazing at like getting that voice to change when he needs something. And in some ways that’s really effective. And so just kind of rewarding that, wow, I see that you can use such a kind respectful voice when you want this and helping them see that, Hey, you can do this.

Carrie: Awesome. Well, we will put links in the show notes to your practice and where people can contact you and find out a little bit more about you. So since you’re licensed in two states, I assume you’re doing some online therapy as well. 

Brooke: Yes right now, I am completely virtual, so I’m doing all of my work on telehealth.

Okay. For now. And for the foreseeable future, we’ll just kind of take it step by step and see what the future brings.

Carrie:  Gotcha. As so many therapists are doing right now. So it makes sense. Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom and insight with us on brainspotting. And it was a good learning experience for me as well, to just see how things compare to what I’m doing and who knows, you never know, I may end up getting trained in that too one day.

Brooke:  Yeah, of course. I think having an awareness of lots of different tools and theories is always beneficial. And then also finding those things that you really connect with that you guys have into and know really, really well is really important.

Carrie: I definitely agree with that.

_______________________________________________________________________

I feel like in this short amount of time that I’ve had this podcast, we’ve been able to cover several different forms of therapy, which has been really neat because I love letting people know that there are treatment options. That’s part of increasing.

I am working on making our website a great resource, not just for our podcast to host the show notes, but also to have blogs and other articles that are helpful for individuals on there.

If there is a topic that we haven’t covered on the podcast, or you don’t see on the blog anywhere, feel free to reach out. I would love to hear your show suggestions or article suggestions. You can do that through the contact page of our website www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com anytime. While you’re there, feel free to subscribe to our email lists to keep up with what’s going on with the podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

 Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing was completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time it may be comforted by God’s great love for you.

35. Parenting a Special Needs Child: A Personal Story with Dyana Robbins, M. Ed

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 35. Parenting a Special Needs Child: A Personal Story with Dyana Robbins, M. Ed

Today, we are privileged to have Dyana Robbins, M. Ed as our guest.  She shares with us her personal story of parenting a special needs child.

  • Dyana’s journey of parenting a special needs child
  • How she managed challenging behaviors of her children
  • Emotional triggers that come with parenting a special needs child and how she dealt with them 
  • Being compassionate both with herself and her children
  • How dealing with her own anxiety helps communicate calm and steadiness to her children
  • Support system she found and created in her community
  • How her journey  impacted her marriage and faith

Links and resources
Dyana Robbins, M. Ed

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Transcript of Episode 35

Hope for anxiety and OCD episode 35. Today on the show, I am interviewing a counselor as well as a special needs Mom. Diana Robbins shares some really great wisdom, on the show today, she asked specifically if we could not share the diagnoses of her children. And so out of respect, we didn’t do that, but I’m sure that regardless of your child’s diagnosis If you are a special needs parent, I know that you will get something out of this episode. We talk about everything from how it impacted her marriage, to how it impacted her faith and relationship with God. So let’s dive right in. 

Carrie: Hi, Diana, will you tell us a little bit about yourself and why you wanted to be on the podcast today to share your story. 

Diana: Yes, Hi Carrie. Thanks for having me on. I am a wife of 26 years to my husband, Chris and a mom to two teenagers, two teenage sons, and we are also blessed to have our 13-year-old niece living with us. So we’re a family of five. We have been living in Singapore for the past three years, but before that, I was a stay-at-home mom and a homeschooling parent in Houston, Texas.

And in Singapore, I’ve resumed my practice as a grief and trauma therapist and have a practice and do a lot of volunteer work with those who are recovering from trauma and loss in their lives. I wanted to share my story because I have to encourage people who are battling anxiety or OCD and that especially the people that love them to the moms, the dads, other family members that are supporting those who struggle with anxiety. I really like to encourage them as well. 

Carrie: Right. And I know that we have people who are struggling that listened to the show, and we also have loved ones that tune in people that have a spouse or boyfriend, girlfriend or child with anxiety or OCD and they’re really trying to understand that individual better because maybe they don’t have the anxiety themselves and can’t necessarily relate personally, but they’re trying to kind of get some more information. So that’s part of a little bit about what we’re doing with the show today. And I think you have the personal, professional and practical information. So it’s a little bit of you’re coming at it from both angles. 

Diana: Well, I’ve certainly been gifted with experience in all of those things. And we’re great.

Carrie: What was it like for you as a parent to find out that your child had a developmental disability? Can you take us a little bit through that process? 

Diana: Absolutely. So when my children were born, my first son was born. We recognized pretty quickly that he was struggling. And no one really knew why. So it took a process of about three years to get accurate diagnosis. And in that time there was a lot of stress, a lot of worry about what was happening and my husband and I were just doing the best that we could to manage, helping him grow and develop. So when the diagnosis finally came and there were several, it was a mix of relief. It was just really helpful to have at least partial answers to what we were dealing with everyday, but there was also this overwhelming grief that set into that, what we were dealing with would be lifelong and not something that we can just fix quickly and the struggles, and there’s some grief for him as well. 

Carrie: I think that makes a lot of sense. You know, there’s kind of multiple emotions as you’re going through that as a parent like, okay, we’re going to be in this for the long haul.

And at the same time, it’s nice to have some kind of idea of what we’re dealing with so that we know how to treat it, or what avenues to pursue professionally. 

Diana: Yeah, absolutely. There were a lot of other emotions mixed in with those two main ones and we have fear. I became just this really fierce advocate.

Immediately I went from being just the mom to being an advocate and a student I had a whole new realm of life and learning that I had to adjust to the diagnoses, how to best support my child and I had a lot to learn. So I became an avid student as well. And, that was really challenging for us.

On a spiritual level as well for both me and my husband to receive the diagnosis. And so I think that I look at that time in our life as one of the key spiritual moments that we are crises that we had to overcome really. 

Carrie: What kind of challenging behaviors and situations did you experience with your children?

Diana: Well, I would say we faced struggles really across, you know, social, emotional and behavioral levels. All of them. The behaviors that were most challenging were the perseveration type behaviors. My son was really fixated on certain things and you would need a lot of order, a lot of routine, and he would also find really odd passions at a very young age. One of the cutest ones, but also most frustrating was in became very interested in vending machines. It makes it not pass a vending machine in town without having to put a quarter in it and watch, you know, something from out. So if there is a vending machine at the grocery store, have a new machine when we were driving on the road that he saw through the window, we had to stop and we had to see the vending machine and purchase something and go through that whole ritual, or he would become very distressed and have a lot of meltdowns or temper tantrums and things. It was just very overwhelming to him to not be able to engage in these behaviors. That was really challenging. It really interrupted our daily life.  As you can imagine, trying to get anywhere and do anything that those kinds of behaviors were maybe the hardest for me as a mother. 

Carrie: How did you manage those things and find the balance of giving your son what he needed while also maintaining your own sanity as a parent?

Diana: That’s a great question. To be honest, I didn’t do that so well, a lot of the time. I tried, I tried to find that balance, but it was a daily struggle and some days I lost that struggle, but overall I learned some really important lessons that I think helped me grow in that over time. My husband and I really believed that it was important to help our children become as involved in a typical developmental trajectory as possible.

We wanted to accept them as they are and help them to integrate into life as best we could. Normal what people consider normal life as best we could. And, and that was always something that we had to balance carefully because we didn’t want to push them too hard or to make too many concessions to the things that they were struggling with.

And I don’t know that you ever feel that you’ve got that balance perfectly at any given time, but we did see that it was helping them grow and become more and more able to engage in the world. So we tried to challenge them only as much as they are supported. I was a principle that we have. I actually learned that in graduate school from one of my mentors and he said that we need to challenge people so that they grow, but we can only do that as far as we have supported them to be able to do that.

So that principle was really important in our home. We really manage their home environment. Home became our secure base. So I can’t control things outside in the world that they’re going to encounter and make it orderly and make it routine. Home became our place to really be able to give them that safe place to engage.

When my second son came along and had some of the same challenges, that became especially important because it was the one place that they could really be themselves and it was safe to do so. And they had all the things that they most needed right at hand. We might home be everything that we could for them. But then when we went out, we would limit our time outside. We would take short outings and eventually grow those into longer, more demanding situations. And then we just taught a lot of coping skills. I did a lot of preparing them at home so that when we went out, we had objects that they could take with them to help them be able to stay focused, to help them be able to manage anxiety and feel safe and secure when they went to church or they went to school. Those kinds of things. 

Carrie: That’s so huge. I think kids knowing what to expect, This is where we’re going, this is what we’re going to be doing. This is kind of a little bit of what it’s going to look like. And here are some tools that you have, like when you do get anxious or when you do get bored, I think so many times we just kind of don’t break it down enough for children.

I don’t know if that’s the right way to say it, but I think that especially any children that are dealing with anxiety or OCD, they need the explanation in simple language, because we may assume that they understand what’s going to happen, but that doesn’t mean that they do. 

Diana: Absolutely. That’s so critical. Giving very explicit and simple instructions was a key part to their success. I had to learn to give maybe one instruction before I gave another. And allow them to process very simply at first to really help manage that anxiety and keep it at a level that I wasn’t adding to the overwhelm. 

Carrie: Right. I know that this is probably something that has come up on the show before or may come up in the future like kids and spouses are really good at stirring up our own stuff internally. And so can you talk a little bit about how some of these behaviors or thought processes triggered you and how you dealt with that?

Diana: Yes. I think that was probably the hardest challenge for me was recognizing. And my kids struggle how much I was struggling myself.  Even before I had children, I hadn’t recognized how much anxiety I had myself until I was trying to help my children who had anxiety. And I could see it so much more plainly and as they struggled, then it would trigger us for a deeper struggle in me, all of those fears, all those worries. My own sense of overwhelm, just trying to get us all through the day was when sometimes just become more than I could handle effectively.

So I think that I learned a lot and learning how to help support my children and how to manage my own anxiety and how to be compassionate with myself just as I was trying to be compassionate with my children and to set them up for success, I needed to do the same thing for me in order to support them well.

Carrie: So in a sense, as you are learning how to manage your own anxiety then you were able to teach them certain things that would help them and kind of, as you’re calmer, they’re probably calmer as well. 

Diana: Yes, that was really important. I learned very quickly that our children respond so much to the way that we show up for them. If I’m calm that helps communicate calm and steadiness to them that they respond to. When I’m anxious, or I allowed their anxiety to trigger my own, then we have a real problem because then we’re all upset and all overwhelmed and it makes it much more difficult to just to complete anything that we’re trying to accomplish.

So I found that it was so important that I was really grounded and really calm when I approached any tasks with my children and that I could manage my own anxiety privately as best as I could before I really engaged with them was very important. 

Carrie: What was the process of finding support like whether that was professional supports or just other parents who could understand what you were going through, spiritual support, all of that.

Diana: Well, it was difficult at first because we live away from our family.  My husband and I have never been able to live close to family. So we built it. And God was so gracious in that he put us in an area where there are wonderful therapists all around us. And we had many. We had developmental therapists, occupational therapists, physical therapists, speech therapists.

Carrie: Wow.

Diana: Yeah. And for both of my sons, they had a very intense schedule therapy, which is part of why we began from schooling just to be able to manage the schedules that we all had. I needed to really be able to educate them from home. And so the homeschooling community also really became a support for our family.

I just made a real effort to get out there and meet other moms and to learn all I could. I looked for support groups in the community and there were some, but they were mostly for older children with the same challenges and adults with anxiety. Those kinds of things. I actually ended up starting a support group so that I could have that support.

It was a wonderful experience. Brought other from spilling parents around that had children with different special needs and tried to talk about the unique challenges of raising kids in home all day with their needs and trying to educate them because that’s a big job. Having that support was really critical to our success.

But I also want to say that I found a neighbor who became a very dear friend to me. She had children the same age, roughly as mine who did not have any developmental challenges, but she was gracious and loving. Actually, I had two neighbors at the time that were that way and loved us well. They brought my children for play dates. They took the time to learn about their behaviors and how to manage them so that I could have a break sometimes while the children played with their children. I don’t know that anything else was more important to me in that period of our life, just to have their support, to be able to connect with moms around things that didn’t have to do with disabilities or the challenges that my kids were facing.

That was just really essential to me. 

Carrie: I hope that provides some encouragement maybe for people who are in a situation where they might be able to support and help another family through the process of helping raise their children because you never know, like what kind of impact you could potentially have in people’s lives. And we all need each other, parents I think in general, just need each other, but especially, so when you’re raising a child that has specific needs. 

Diana: Yes, I feel that it will encourage people. I know my friends if they were speaking with you today would tell you that they felt that the relationship with our family taught them a lot too, but it was beneficial on both sides.

Although it wasn’t a tremendous ministry to my family. And I feel like it certainly probably benefited us more than anyone. They will tell you that it benefited them as well, that they learned a lot from having our children be part of their children’s lives and watching them play together.

And we of course tried to really reciprocate to those families as well, not just to receive from them, but to post them in our home and to show love to them as well. And I think it was just some really beautiful relationships that developed as our children grew up together. 

Carrie: That’s a really beautiful story. Let’s talk a little bit about how this is impacted your marriage because I’ve heard that statistically, people who are raising children with any kind of special needs have a higher divorce rate than average. How did this affect your marriage and how did you and your husband work through some of those bumps in the road?

Diana: Well, that’s a great question. I could probably talk about that the entire time we had today. But I was thinking in general that raising children with special needs and the anxiety and things that came with that for them really challenged our marriage more than anything else that we’ve faced, but it’s also been the way that God has strengthened our marriage probably more than anything else. So it’s been both a really difficult and wonderful thing at the same time.  We’ve learned several survival skills that I’ll share in case they’re helpful to others. But one is how important it is that we actually communicate in a healthy way.

I think when you have typical challenges and marriage and parenting it’s difficult anyway, good communication is important, but when you have children with special needs and the constant demands of that, it becomes even more important because you have so little time together and you need that time together.

Where you’re alone to really have this really clear communication that’s very healthy. We had to accept each other’s limits. That was really important. And to recognize when my anxiety or his anxiety with dealing with the challenges was too high. And to step in not with any judgements, but to just try to step in for one another and say, Hey, you know, I’ve got this situation. I can take it from here for a little bit, you know, go grab a cup of coffee or, you know, go work in the yard a bit. I’ve got this. And to really just understand that there’s only so much we can take. We’re human too. And to make room for us to have our own limits was really important. We make amazing at dividing and conquering tasks.  We developed that pretty early in the marriage to survive. And some, we just took on the task that we each were best at and did that really well and work together as a team. And that was really helpful to me because we weren’t constantly reinventing the wheel to get through every day.

We just knew what we needed to do. And that helped a lot. That reduced my anxiety a lot to know that he had certain areas covered and I didn’t have to think about them and, and then I would handle the others. So, yeah, I think those were some of the main things that we learned as far as tips, but encouraging self-care. My partner was really important too.

Sometimes we have recognized ourselves when we’re really overwhelmed and anxious. We see it for our children that we couldn’t always see it for ourselves. And so my husband and I learned to help one another recognize when we were at that place. And to encourage self-care not just a temporary break, but how has your spiritual life going.

You had to do a hobby that you enjoy or to connect with a friend to call your family does most of the really important things that we did for one another.

Carrie: Right. Good. I think some of that’s good for, for any marriage, some of the principles that you just outlined, just a sense of knowing your strengths, knowing your limitations, learning how to communicate with each other. That’s an ongoing process, I think for married couples. Very good insights there. 

How would you say that this journey with your children has impacted your faith? 

Diana: Well, you hit on probably the first thing I always say about it already, Carrie, you said that recognizing limitations is important. And that was the first thing I think that I had to learn spiritually was that there are limits, I think before having children and these challenges in our home, there really, hadn’t been very much that my husband and I hadn’t been able to tackle together very well the challenges that we hadn’t been able to overcome. And just through hard work and effort, and you can’t fix anxiety, you can’t fix developmental challenges with hard work and effort. You can’t power your way through that.

And so we had to learn that we have limits and our children have limits. And that it was okay. It really humbled us, I think and deepened our need for the Lord in ways that I don’t think we would’ve grown and recognized until the children came into our family. We became very aware that we need a God for everything. And I wish that I had had a deeper sense of that before, but really the Lord used our children and their needs to drive that point home. 

And I’m thankful that he did.

Carrie: It just ended up leading you to like a greater place of dependence on God. 

Diana: Absolutely. And it really caused me to really shrink life down to its basic elements for many years.

Our story is much different now, but in the early years of dealing with all of this, I was really happy to get a shower. If I could everybody say all the toddlers, you know, or we’re doing well. We had gotten through the day, their basic needs are met and my basic needs were met, I was really, really happy.

That was a successful day. That was a triumph. But in doing that and having this very small circle in life, I realized that I can focus more on the Lord too like I have so many fewer distractions and the quiet because life was so basic and it really helped my husband and are both, I think, focused on eternal things more, to become more in touch with the fact that things may not be what we desire or sometimes even feel that we need them to be here, but that we have an eternal hope that we can cling to that even if things don’t get better. Here that we will be okay. That this is not a forever situation. And that hope became very real to me in those years. For sure. 

Carrie: How are your sons doing now? 

Diana: I’m really happy to report that the prognoses and things that we received when they were young has really been blown out of the water.

I guess if to say we’ve gone from home homeschooling lifestyle so that we can just manage behaviors and allow them to learn in a safe environment for them to maybe in our costs the world and going to competitive international schools and you know, all of these things that are anxiety-producing for anyone.

And my son’s been able to manage that extremely well. My oldest is going to university in the fall of this year and. He’s graduated without really much support anymore academically or socially at school or emotionally at school.  He’s really impressed. All of us, I think with the sheer amount of effort and work and perseverance that he’s demonstrated over the years.

And my younger son is right behind him and he’s in 10th grade this year. He’s finishing that up and plans to get a university as well, which are things that we just never dreamed of, you know, really being potentials for them when they were young. And we were getting all of this news. So we have a lot of joy in this season, seeing all that God has done the ways that he has not just helped us overcome that a lot, many of the challenges, although that’s wonderful and we’re thankful for that, but really the people that he shaped us into through these struggles and seeing that character formed in my children as well. And that love for the Lord that they carry with them because they’ve had to depend on him so much is a great encouragement to me, probably the best thing. 

Carrie: Right. I think that’s something that we’ve seen with really all of the personal stories that we’ve of people we’ve had on the show that I’ve struggled with anxiety or OCD is that they’ll say it caused me to know more about God. It caused me to grow closer to him. It was part of my sanctification process of becoming more like Christ. And I think that your story really fits in, with all of that. And when we’re in the middle of it, it’s so easy to get bogged down with the day-to-day trials that we’re facing. And a lot of times we don’t see the bigger picture until maybe sometimes years later. And then we take a step back and we’re like, wow, God really used that situation in my life for good, but when I was in the midst of it, I just couldn’t see anything good about it. And I was just there just going through the motions, just trying to survive like you said.

Diana: Yes, absolutely. And I think that that perspective is so critical. It’s easier to have when you’re looking backwards like I am now. It’s so overwhelming, sometimes that all you can do is just kind of ask the Lord to come to you in that place because you don’t have anything to reach out to him with. That’s such a wonderful thing that he does, that he does come into our mess. He does come into the chaos. He does come into all of the things that we can’t manage on our own. And, and brings his peace when we don’t have it. And when we experienced that, it helps us understand that there is something more than what we’re struggling with.

Carrie: Right. So I feel like your, your whole story has been hopeful, but because I always ask this question to every guest, I’m going to ask it to you. What is the time in your life where you have received hope from God or another person? 

Diana: There have been so many times that the Lord himself has done that and he used other people to do that for us. But I think I’ll share the one where it was one of my darkest moments. I was much older. We were both really young and really struggling, kind of at the crisis point, I guess, for their challenges. I had one of those days where I really couldn’t even have my own thoughts. I was just trying to keep them happy and getting through their day.

And we had a lot of outbursts, a lot of meltdowns and a lot of anxiety that day.  All the way around with both of my sons and with me, myself. And I finally put them in their rooms for quiet time, which was my saving grace that they had by at time every day. And I just kind of collapsed in a heap on the floor.

And I told the Lord really clearly that I needed him to change that situation, or I needed him to change me because I didn’t know how to go forward even one more step. And that feeling, even as I talk about it, it’s still just really present. It was such a moment I had really come to the end of myself and as I was crying and telling him these things, I just felt his presence really powerfully.

And he reminded me that he was with me and that he was, he was going to be enough and he didn’t tell me how he was going to do that. He didn’t impress on my heart, the plan for the next five or 10 years or anything like that. But he just met me in that place. And I just felt his presence.

I was encouraged by scripture and things that I needed so desperately in that moment that reminded me that there was more than that one moment that I was stuck in. And at that point, things really changed in our family. We became a family that wasn’t driven by the challenges and just constantly reacting to them, but a family that was looking beyond them to something more. And that shift made all the difference in being able to cope with the anxiety that we were all feeling and changed us I think. It’s certainly changed me forever to find him there. 

Carrie: Yeah, that’s awesome. I loved what you said earlier about just God really entering into those places with us. You know, the, whether it’s the mess or the loneliness or the heartache or the, I just can’t do this anymore. One more day. I just can’t seem to do this.

That he’ll be right there and that he pursues us in that process. I love that. 

Thank you so much for being on the show and telling your story. I know that it’s going to encourage and inspire some other people. 

Diana: Thank you for having beyond theory. It’s a privilege to get to meet you and to hopefully share our story in a way that will maybe help somebody else keep going too.

__________________________

There are so many amazing special needs parents out there. So shout out to you if you are in that category. And I hope this episode was encouraging to you. If that’s the case, stay tuned for future episodes where we’re going to be talking about everything from brainspotting to self-care to dealing with doubt.

You can find us online anytime at www.thopeforanxietyandocd.com.

Thanks so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

34. Sudden Onset of OCD in Children: Is it PANS/PANDAS? with Dr. Roseann Capanna Hodge

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in OCD, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 34. Sudden Onset of OCD in Children: Is it PANS/PANDAS? with Dr. Roseann Capanna Hodge

I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge, a Licensed Professional Counselor (LPC), Certified Integrative Medicine Mental Health Provider (CMHIMP), and a Board Certified Neurofeedback Provider (BCN).  She is also the founder and director of The Global Institute of Children’s Mental Health and Dr. Roseann and Associates. 

Dr. Rosean shares with us her knowledge and clinical experience in treating PANS (Pediatric Acute-onset Neuropsychiatric Syndrome) and PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Streptococcus).

  • What should parents know about PANS/PANDAS? What are its signs and symptoms?
  • How are PANS/PANDAS diagnosed? Is there a test for PANS/PANDAS?
  • What is the treatment for PANS/PANDAS?
  • PANS/PANDAS in the school setting
  • Dr. Roseann’s book: It’s Gonna Be Ok

Links and resources:
Dr. Roseann Capanna Hodge
Book: It’s Gonna Be Ok

Support the show 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 34

Dr. Roseann: Wow, I’m so excited to be here, Carrie, and have this conversation. 

Carrie: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? 

Dr. Roseann: My name is Dr. Roseanne Alanna Hodge, and this is my 30th year in mental health in supporting kids, their families and adults using only proven holistic therapies like neurofeedback, biofeedback, and of course, psychotherapy.

Carrie: Awesome. What type of training does it take to become a certified integrative medicine, mental health provider? That’s a long title. 

Dr. Roseann: Well, you know, here’s the deal. Since I literally have only been an integrative mental health provider my entire career, there was no certification. There was nothing years ago.

I started out with going to the basement in a library and looking at microfiche and doing my research that way. And then I bought literally hundreds of books about integrative care, everything from nutrition to exercise, supplements, genetics, and did a lot of that training. So when these certifications became available because if you’re a licensed mental health provider, depending on what state you’re in and in my state, Connecticut, my license allows me to do work as long as I’ve had training. And so I always try to do highest and best and get certification. So I have certification to be an integrative mental health provider. I also have the Amon certification. I’m also a certified neurofeedback provider. It really just means you’ve done extensive training in a certain area in order to guide your clients, your patients, whatever you call them to that area.

Carrie: Okay. And your specialty is working with children and adolescentsts

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. And families.

Carrie: Okay, awesome. So why did you want to come on the show today and talk with us about PANS or PANDAS? 

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. So I am somebody who specializes in PANS and PANDAS, and it is something that is dramatically on the rise.

And what is it? Is that they’re separate disorders that have the same infectious or toxic trigger. And there’s also another one in there, autoimmune encephalopathy, but PANS and PANDAS is a sudden onset of a mental health issue because the body has a misdirected immune response starts attacking itself and has an inflammatory effect, which then can produce a wide variety of psychiatric, neurocognitive and physical issues. And autoimmune encephalopathy is the same, except it’s not a sudden onset and why I want to talk about it. Like I said, it’s on the rise and infectious disease triggers are a very common source of mental health problems in the time of COVID. You know, we’re all seeing people with long holler symptoms affecting their cognition, right? Whether they’re calling a brain fog or they’re having psychiatric problems, I’ve had more than one person with psychosis as a result of COVID but there’s more than that. Right? So we have depression. Yeah, right. And, and there’s, it’s a very, very common source of anxiety, depression, EDD like- symptoms.

And I want therapists and people out there in the world to know about it. And, you know, we specialize in OCD in our center because we specialize in PANS and PANDAS. And other than one or two people who have OCD that come to us, all have a primary diagnosis of pans and pandas. So people are just not making this connection in my mission.

I’m on a mission to change the way we view and treat children’s mental health. I mean, that really is my mission, but I want people to know about this because not only am I somebody who treats and started working with people with Lyme disease almost 24, Is it 25 years ago? Somewhere, a long time ago, Carrie

And then I of course get my own child who gets Lyme disease at 22 months and develops PANS, but It is a horrible journey for any person, a child or an adult that has, you know, PANS and PANDAS, Lyme disease, because what happens is the first people that they see medical people, miss it. Then they get slopped into mental health providers who then say, “Oh, this is a mental health problem”.

They don’t understand the physical components. And you asked about like I do integrative work. I mean, What does that mean? It means that I really am studying about mind and body. And I don’t want to get the spirit out of there, but I’m really working on mind and body connections. And we are not educated enough as therapists, but parents are not educated.

They’re not getting educated that their kid could have a mental health problem. That results from something that could be medically treated, not with an anti-anxiety or antipsychotic, but with anti-inflammatory antimicrobial drugs to address what’s causing that root cause of that mental health problem.

So it’s something that’s incredibly common. One in 200 kids, the research says have it. And even though it’s called pediatric acute onset neuropsychiatric syndrome, it can actually now be an adult-onset. So we’re no longer just making, you know, saying it has to occur. 

Carrie: So kids who have PANS or PANDAS when they go to get mental health treatment and the parent brings them in, oftentimes I imagine they’ll be misdiagnosed as either having anxiety, OCD, ADHD. Is that right? 

Dr. Roseann: Tic disorder, separation anxiety. Yeah, absolutely OCD. I know there’s a separate category in the DSM for oppositional defiant disorder. It’s not real. it’s a symptom of another issue, So, you know, whether things are your depression and OCD on that spectrum, you have internalizers and externalizers and odd kids, or externalizers. It’s really the behavioral manifestation.

People haven’t done their due diligence to figure out what it actually is that sourcing this anger and non-compliance. Sorry people that are listening. Parents, they’re refusals. 

Carrie: Right. So how do people get diagnosed? How do they come to a place of a proper diagnosis? What does that testing process like?

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. So first I have to say whether it’s Lyme disease or PANS and PANDA, there is no single test of the diagnosis. And this is so critical because people will go down rabbit hole after rabbit hole, after rabbit hole, looking for an official diagnosis. And particularly if the source is a tick-borne illness and there are hundreds of types of tick-borne illness.

We really often only hear about Lyme. Sometimes we hear about Bartonella or BBCA. They have very, very much impact to your mental health and some of your more severe psychiatric conditions, including schizophrenia, bipolar and there’s research to substantiate some of the things that I’m talking about.

They have a high rate of tick-borne infection. So. No single test. Okay. Are there tests civil? Of course. But as I mentioned with Lyme disease, Some people say it’s the most genetically evolved bacteria on the planet. And because it’s been around since prehistoric times they’re finding it.

They definitely found it coming over with Columbus in 1492, but people are saying prehistoric times, And so this bacteria can hide inside of a cell. So that means standard testing may not pick it up. And then there’s a whole controversy about what tests people are using and not, but in pans and pandas, there is a panel called the Cunningham panel.

It does not mean if your child is negative on that, that they don’t have PANS and PANDAS. So you have to look at clinical symptoms. And do they meet criteria, PANS and PANDAS? You know, there’s going to be a sudden onset of a problem or a deep acceleration of a preexisting condition. I like to talk about this because people really don’t understand this.

So you could have ADD. And then it’s literally off the charts, right. Or a low level of anxiety and then sudden onset of OCD. And that can be a confounding variable because people like, well, my kid always like saying chest, you know, but then literally overnight. So, and sometimes it’s really easy to see Carrie because.

People will come to me and say, oh, my kid got, the case of somebody who came to me recently, he got COVID and within 10 days he is psychosis. 

Carrie: Wow. 

Dr. Roseann: So pretty easy to make that connection. 

Carrie: Sure. That was really fast. 

Dr. Roseann: Yeah, with physicians still wanted to send them to the psych hospital and I was like, what is going on? We got to treat it. So we got him to where he needed to go. I think it’s really important that people find a provider- PANS and PANDAS trained provider. And you can do that by going, there’s a great national organization called Aspire Care where you can go to epidemic answers and they have providers listed there.

Carrie: Okay. That’s awesome. I think that that’s really great. This is a sudden onset of psychiatric symptoms, but it’s based on a physical medical problem and part of the problem that we have sometimes is we don’t always know, is something mental health-related or is something medically related. And we talked about in one of our very early episodes on the show, kind of ruling out medical conditions for mental health disorders.

What are some things that parents might see if they think that their kid might be struggling with this? what are some signs or symptoms to look out for? 

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. I want to say that if you’ve had chronic anxiety or chronic stress or long-term any type of physical or mental health problem, you’re going to have physical effects on your body.

Your body is not designed to run on empty. And when your nervous system is hyper stress-activated, you’re going to start getting nutrient depletion. You’re going to get physical problems. You may have hair loss, your thyroid might go down. So whether that’s the actual source or something that’s worsening it. Really taking a functional approach through lab work is really important. So what are signs of PANS and PANDAS? We can only connect the dots looking forward. I mean, looking back not looking forward. And so these are things that people see. So when it’s really sudden, and sometimes people will come to me.

I know when they write down a date that it started. I’ve got to consider PANS. And it wasn’t like, oh, the grandmother died, or you know, they got bullied. Whatever it was, it isn’t something traumatic that happened often when it’s really sudden overnight, and you will hear stories of this, then all of a sudden they woke up.

And this is very common OCD, very, very severe to the point where they’re doing obsessions in compulsive thinking and behaviors. So they cannot function at all. Right? So these behaviors and intrusive thoughts may be going on for hours on it. And it wasn’t present there before, or was present at a very mild level.

So the level of how it destroys your functionality is a big red flag. You also can have regressive behaviors, so you can have a loss of bladder functioning. Right? Frequent urination is one of the hallmark signs. And this can occur in adults too. It’s not just kids, a loss of handwriting or coordination is another one or a loss of academic skills, math and reading, being the two most common.

And then, you know, you’re going to, you’re going to look for things like. Vocal or motor tics, a real extreme level of anxiety. And, and, you know, I mean, as somebody, a professional who spent so much time with OCD and anxiety, these are conditions that are misunderstood. You know, most people think about OCD as only compulsive behaviors, hand-washing and whatnot.

It always starts off as intrusive thoughts, right? And often the nexuses worry it’s anxiety. And then it’s, what we call a maladaptive way of coping with anxiety. So some people are like I’m going to go and work out. I’m going to go pray. I’m going to go to my spin class with my bestie, and we’re going to socialize when I’m feeling anxious and you find these healthy ways to cope. But OCD gets in there and there’s this habituation and it can really ignite like a wildfire due to the negative reinforcement cycle in the brain. And what happens with neuro-transmitters reinforcing us, but what it looks like. And these kinds of things. If there’s sort of a wax and weaning, all of a sudden your kid might need reassurance a lot and they weren’t a kid that needed reassurance, separation anxiety can all of a sudden show up.

One of my dearest friends, her daughter was totally typical and got bitten by a tick and within 30 minutes became a different human being. She developed severe separation anxiety within 30 minutes, her mom is a psychologist. She had to quit her job, and unfortunately, she didn’t really respond to a lot of treatments.

So she wound up getting tick-borne illness and then strep on top of it. So PANDAS, it’s strep only, but PANS is any infection or toxic trigger. And most of these individuals have layers of infection. So they could have scars. Like, my max had nine co-infections from ticks, Scarlet fever, a bunch of other things, you know, it was a lot of work to clean him up.

So a variety of symptoms can result that are mental health-related and they can be quite extreme behavior can be frightening. Not to speak in a way that’s saucy or inappropriate. Because I’m a PANS’ mom, parents will come to me and say, I literally thought my kid had a demonic possession. They just flipped out, you know, just can be very, very extreme, whether it’s an internalizing where they’re scared or extreme rage externalizers and then, you know, psychosis can happen in this as well. And it can be really, really frightening. And the most recent research, early, 2021, which is in my book, it’s going to be okay. Is saying what I knew. That these kids have paradoxical reactions to psych meds.

No surprise, because the issue is inflammatory response, infection and toxins, and every psych med has a toxin load. There isn’t a psych med that doesn’t have a toxic component. And so you add that into a system that’s already flooded and overwhelmed by infections and toxins. It actually worsens things.

Carrie: They can’t tolerate the medication cause their system’s already on overload.

Dr. Roseann: Overload. And, yes, they’re anxious. But the source is not neuro-transmitter genetics. That’s what everybody wants us to believe. So this is surprising to people. When I talk about this, most people, I hope people are listening, and this is why I do this.

You know, why am I doing this? I want you to think about it, right? So if you’re a therapist, you’ve got somebody on your caseload. This is who they are, who they are. And if you’re a parent or a friend to somebody, you might be like, holy moly. That’s what happened to Becky’s kid. And you want to say, this is an episode that I want you to listen to because I learned a lot.

And that information can just really change the trajectory of not only that individual, but their entire family. I mean, this is a devastating thing we knew within like six months that my 22 month-old had Lyme disease. I already was integrative. I already am in the Northeast with the top experts in the world.

He’s 16 and I’m telling you it took 14 years. And I won’t even tell you how much money, because it is not attainable for most people, because a lot of my friends have lost their homes and marriages. It is extraordinary what we did to get him better. And that is the norm and it’s rabbit hole after rabbit hole, after rabbit hole.

And I didn’t have the same issues as other people, because most people are forced to go in network where they’re challenged you belittled. I mean, when you hear some of these stories of what happens to people, it’s frightening. I mean, I, when I talk about cases, I. Give information that hides and protects there’s identity.

I mashed them up. I like to say I’ve had people who were tied down in psych hospitals, even though their titers were showing that they had off the charts. I had one client who had the highest strep titer that the hospital has ever seen and they refused to treat her for strep.

Carrie: So tell us a little bit about what the treatment is usually like for PANS and PANDAS.

Dr. Roseann: So there’s a treatment triangle and it involves antimicrobials really getting at that infection and then anti-inflammatory treatment and then mental health. Because even though this isn’t a biochemical problem, this is very traumatic. There are mental health components, parents need a lot of support.

They may have had a totally typical kid who now is hijacking the family, you know, financially behaviourally everything, and they’re not equipped to deal with this. And so they need a lot of support for themselves on how to really kind of get through this and, you know, really set these loving limits with their child and support them through this.

It’s very, very challenging. 

Carrie: Absolutely. Parents that have children with mental health issues or physical issues need a lot of support and a lot of help. And unfortunately, a lot of times are judged is just, well, you’re a bad parent because your kid’s acting out and that’s not the case.

Dr. Roseann: And sometimes kids are called bad. I did a summit and my friend, JJ Virgin was on and Bob Hope’s granddaughter, Miranda hope is on and myself and we all have the same story. All three of our kids were kicked out of preschool. 


Carrie: Wow. 

Dr. Roseann: Yeah. And my kid was called a feral animal, by the teacher. Now what human being would tell a mother, your kids, a feral animal.

And each of us had horror stories. Right? JJ Virgin’s son was left outside in Palm Springs in September, outside the room locked out because they said he was a bad boy. 

Carrie: Wow.

Dr. Roseann: Yeah, so we have to change that, that’s not okay. And one in two children in America has a physical or mental health problem. That’s ten-year-old data. That study is being updated. I can’t even imagine what it’s like right now. So we have to be way more tolerant and accepting and loving.

Carrie: So tell us a little bit about your book, Dr. Roseanne, It’s Going to be Okay, which I love that title. So tell us what it’s about. 

Dr. Roseann: Well, thank you. I love this title. So I tell every person that I work with, it’s going to be okay. And that’s the first thing that I tell them because they need to hear that because you feel alone, you feel scared, you don’t know who to trust, and you definitely don’t know what to do. And you know, people find me in all these different ways. It’s unbelievable. And I work with people in person and remote and all different ways.

So this book is going to be okay. I lay out the eight pillars, what I call hope and healing. And I show people how to reduce mental health symptoms using only proven holistic therapies. And it is all there. All science-backed ways are over 40 pages of research citations. So I want people to know this stuff that made it and heard about.

But I can feel comfortable that they’re safe. I can try these out and as overwhelmed as we feel as parents in general, but when you have a kid who struggles, you feel even more overwhelmed, I encourage parents to get this book. Start with one thing. And when we do one small action consistently, it can create a lot of change.

And so I’m really, really excited. This is truly the 30 years worth my work in one book. And I really want parents to know it’s going to be okay and show them how to do it. 

Carrie: Awesome. Awesome. So towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope. So a time where you’ve received hope from God or another person.


Dr. Roseann: Yeah. Well, you know, when you ask me this question, it’s actually hard for me to answer because I feel very connected to God. And so when I struggle in that moment and being a special needs, mom, times two, I have learned. That I have to be in the moment and really try to appreciate the moment. And so I think that I’m most connected when I’m with my kids and I am actually having fun and trying to laugh, not trying to laugh, laughing, just being there.

And so I have the blessing of having a million moments like that every day, being present and connected and having a lot of love around you. 

Carrie: Okay. Okay. Hey, so every day, moments of hope for you, with your family.

Dr. Roseann: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I’m so lucky that I’m able to bring hope to people because at a time when I feel that people have the lowest level of hope and trust I’ve ever seen in these 30 years, it’s a conversation that I’m starting wherever I go, which is why I start off by saying it’s going to be okay, because people need to hear that like they’re feeling overwhelmed and out of hope. And I just think taking the moment to be extra kind to anybody who’s in your presence just goes a long way. And I know it sounds really hokey, but people are so lonely and disconnected and scared very much so. And I think they were before the pandemic and the pandemic has really thrown some fuel on this fire.

Carrie: Yes, I would definitely agree with that for sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us today. 

Dr. Roseann: Thank you for having this conversation. And if you think that, you know, your child has PANS or PANDAS, find a provider. I say this wherever I am, nobody ever regrets getting help. The only regret is when they don’t. 

Carrie: I knew a little bit about PANDAS from my previous work with children. However, I’ve found this interview to be very informative in terms of thinking about, we always have to look at the holistic picture of anyone’s health, whether that’s a child or adult, how are they impacted physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And if you’re looking at things from a holistic lens, instead of only being treating one or the other, usually something ends up missing in that picture. Unfortunately just with the way our current medical system is often doctors and counselors and psychiatrists aren’t always communicating together in the best possible way.

So it’s important for parents to really be the best advocate for their children in providing the linkage between some of those areas. 

________________________________

I wanted to announce to you all that our next free webinar for hope for anxiety and OCD is going to be sometime, probably in mid-September. I would love topic suggestions for this webinar.

What would you like to dive into a little bit deeper? What would you like to have questions answered on about? So there’ll be a very short, you know, 30 or 45 minutes of teaching for the webinar. And then I want to leave time at the end for questions. So if there’s something that you would like to see some helpful teaching on and be able to ask some questions, feel free to contact me through our website, www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com.Thank you so much for listening. 

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

33. What is it Like to be a Counselor? Steve Interviews Carrie

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 33. What is it Like to be a Counselor? Steve Interviews Carrie

This episode is for those who are curious about what it’s truly like to be a therapist. People wonder things like, how can you listen to so many people’s problems?   

Today’s show is also unique because my husband Steve took over my role for a day as a host and prepared the set of questions himself.  It’s always fun and exciting to have him both on the show and in my life.  

  • What is it about therapy that I enjoy most? 
  • My life as a therapist and scope of work
  • Difference between private practice and working in a community mental health setting
  • How I get through my busy day feeling good
  • Balancing my analytical side and creative side
  • How I feel when I got to the end of the whole process with my clients.
  • My goal for my clients
  • Steve and Carrie share their most recent personal story of hope

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Transcript of Episode 33

Hope for anxiety and OCD, episode 33. This is your host, Carrie Bock. And in case you’re new to the show, we’re all about reducing shame, increasing hope, and developing healthier connections with God and others. Today is a very special show as I am joined by my husband, Steve Bock, he is saving my bacon because we had an episode that I was going to come out and the recording just didn’t come out very good. And I didn’t feel comfortable putting it out there into the world for you guys to listen to. So he decided to come up with some questions that our listeners might be interested in related to being a therapist.

Carrie: Welcome back, Steve. 

Steve: I’m happy to be here. You did not ask me to be here, which makes it different this time. I had suggested it because as with anything we get in a pinch sometimes. As your husband, I have an obligation to try to help where I can. So I suggested, well, why don’t you just let me ask you a bunch of questions and see how it goes. 

Carrie: You’re very helpful as always. 

Steve : You’re all too kind. 

Carrie: So what’s up? I haven’t seen these questions ahead of time. So what do you have for me?

Steve: Okay, well, Carrie, today is your day to be on the couch. As a therapist, you have people on the couch, right? And you talk to them and they just opened up to you. 

Carrie: Now they’re on their own couch online 

Steve: Now they’re on their couch online and they get to be in the comfort of their own home or their own car. Today, you’re on the couch. The questions are for you. I’m not per se trying to help you in that sense. I’m no therapist. God knows I’m not a therapist. So Carrie, what is it about therapy and helping people being their therapist? What is it that you like about that?

Carrie: Wow. The biggest thing for me is just the life transformation that I get to see in people like watching them come in. A lot of times, pretty hopeless. I feel like I’m at the end of my rope and everything I’ve tried. I just haven’t gotten better. I’ve done maybe some self-help or talk to some friends, or maybe just try to do everything internally themselves. And then they get to this pivotal point where they reach out for help to someone. And as you get to know people week after week, after seeing them on a regular basis, there’s just an element where you’re care and concern for someone that you have in the beginning. It grows obviously over time, the more time that you spend with people. I want to see my clients succeed, I want to see them do well. And so when they come in after working with me for some time and they have a smile on their face and they haven’t been smiling in a long time or they say, “Hey, I had a win this week. This is what happened. I was able to have an OCD thought come in. And I knew it was OCD this time.” And I just was like, “okay, I’m going to let that thought pass” or they come in and say, yeah, that situation that normally would have really triggered me and made me anxious. It didn’t make me as anxious this week. I was able to kind of catch my breath and breathe through it. So it’s all these little opportunities to see people, really change the directory of their lives.

And I know it’s not just for their lives, it’s for their kids’ lives. It’s for their marriages that are being changed. And that just lights me up and makes me want to go to work every day. 

Steve: Okay, well, for those who maybe haven’t listened much to you, or like me. They’ve heard it, but haven’t really listened. What is it that you do? Do you just give everybody therapy? 

Carrie: I definitely don’t give everybody therapy. That would be out of my scope of practice. And it’s funny because I used to get calls all the time for marriage counseling. I think because I was a Christian and I would have to tell people I don’t do marriage counseling at all. In fact, I haven’t done marriage counseling since I was in my practicum in graduate school. And I’m pretty sure those couples are not together anymore. I would not be a good person to do marriage counseling. I also don’t work with addictions or anybody that has a severe anorexia or something of that nature I don’t work with

My tagline that I tell people is that I am a Christian therapist who helps people with anxiety and OCD overcome wounding childhood experiences in order to live more full lives. And I do that now in the comfort of their own homes via online therapy. 

Steve: As Carrie Bock, you wake up and I know this pretty early in the morning. You’re not a lazy person. You get up, you put a lot of preparation into what you do. You have a plan, you have ideas. You don’t share those with me because in your world, you can’t. So you keep that all mustered up inside somewhat. 

The first person that you meet with comes along and something’s already probably gone wrong. Somebody at the front door knocking on the door while you’re trying to be in session or a cat walks in or out or whatever the case is you deal with that, not a big deal. You handle that. Things go on all throughout the day though that are out of your control and you have to somehow keep enough sense about you to help someone. And you do very, very well at it I think. 

The first session goes by and you’ve absorbed everything that that individual has said. Now you’re going to session two, the same thing. Session three, session four. Maybe you get a lunch. I don’t know. Maybe you’ve just scarfed down lunch, you’ve tipped your food in your mouth, and now you’re running back to go meet with someone, how do you not go nuts like how do you take all of that in absorb it all and then calmly say, and how does that make you feel because I’ve got that in my head and I bet that you never say that.

Carrie: No, therapists don’t just have one line that they say that’s so annoying. Wow. So how do I get through the day to day seen multiple people with multiple problems and hearing all their stories?

That’s a really good question. Well, first thing I will say about the lunch. I’m not a person that scarves down food and runs back to work. For me, my lunch is more of a time. A lot of times now that I’m home, I get to go in and I’ll cook a little something. It doesn’t have to be anything major, but lunch is kind of my downtime, my relax time, where I can clear my head a little bit or shift gears and think about something different.

As far as seeing one person and the next, sometimes sessions can be really heavy like you’re talking about some pretty traumatic things or the person was very emotional and that can be hard. I think, to transition and shift gears, for me, it can look like a lot of different ways. It can look like maybe getting up in between sessions and stretching. Sometimes it’s just going to get a drink of water. Obviously, I have to go to the bathroom throughout the day. You know, those types of things that I do in between session to kind of help reset. One of the things that has helped me probably the most is that therapists that I realized a long time ago was that these are not my problems.

There are other people’s problems because I was such an empathetic person that I would take on other people’s problems as my own. And even when I was in the early days of working in community mental health. Essentially, I felt like the message was you’ve got to fix these people. You’ve got to make them better like whatever you have to do to do that.  You have to bend over backwards. I really got burned out in that job. And I didn’t even realize that I was burnt out. I didn’t have the self-awareness to know that. Through that process though of going to my own therapy, I realized I have to take a step back and take the wide-angle view really to say at the end of the day, these people are living with these problems on a day-to-day basis and I’m here to help them. I’m here to support them, but I’m not here to fix them and I’m not here to fix their problems. I’m here to be kind of the guide and the person that walks alongside them and shows them potential different paths that they can take, but I can never make anyone do anything.

There’s something really freeing about recognizing that, that everything is optional. People want to dive in and do the work then I’m happy to help them do that. If they’re not ready to do that, that’s okay. And I can be patient and wait with them until they are ready to dive into some things. I think for me because my therapy is less of insight-based and more action-based that the people who aren’t quite ready to take action, they either don’t tend to see me or they tend to drop out one of the two, but I hope that answers the question.

Steve: Yeah, it does. And that leads me to another question actually. We all need help from time to time, right? You’re around me enough, you know that I tend to store things in. I’m not going to tell, I’ll tell y’all complained to you all day, but I’m not going to tell people my problems. I’m not good at that, right?  There are people who I am sure have a problem, and they don’t recognize it. There’s an outcome of it. They’re aggravated and they don’t know why or they’re doing something to themselves that they shouldn’t or saying things they shouldn’t or treating a spouse or a family member, whatever, in a bad way or whatever it may be. But what do you tell them to notice those types of things? Like at what point should a person notice that? If that makes sense.

Carrie: Are you talking about how do people become self-aware enough to realize that they need therapy? 

Steve: Yes.

Carrie: Okay.

Steve: See? You put it so much better than I did. I say it in like 5,000 words, you say it in like 10 or less, but yes.

Carrie: Well, we always look at the different domains of a person’s life. And I think that you just named some of those off. So when you’re looking at what are your relationships look like, are you satisfied in your relationship with your spouse or significant other? What is your work like? Are you getting in trouble at work because you can’t get along with your coworkers and then the other would be maybe school. If the person is in school, a lot of times when kids are failing, it’s not just because they don’t understand the subject matter. Sometimes they have emotional things going on or mental health struggles that they’re dealing with.

So we look at those kinds of different domains of life. What’s someone’s functional level at home? Are they just laying in the bed all day, depressed on a Saturday and really all they can do is go to work and go home. That might be an indication that someone needs therapy. Usually, people seek help when one of those domains is impacted in some way, shape or form like, okay my anxiety is at the point where it’s affecting my ability to drive to and from work because I’m afraid of driving on the interstate or my OCD is impacting my relationship with my spouse because I’m having all of these obsessions about my spouse. And then I’m seeking reassurance from them. Just some couple of examples there 

Steve:  On a similar question, what advice would you give someone if they had a family member or a friend. Of course, we all think the other person needs help and not us, Sometimes you see people and you’re like, man, they really need some help, honestly.

And not in a mean or a cruel way like, “oh dear. Oh my, go get some help.” You’re not trying to be mean, but they really do need help. What advice do you give somebody? Because that type of a thing is usually, I would think you bring up that topic and they are going to let you have it. I don’t have a problem. Who do you think you are? And that it’s one of those things that probably could split a family or a marriage or whatever up. What advice do you give somebody to reach out to their friend or their family member and say Hey, you need help?

Carrie: If you know what the barrier is I think that it’s a little bit easier. For example, if someone’s saying, well, I don’t have time to go to therapy, then you might present them with some different options. There are therapists that keep all different kinds of hours. Well, maybe we can find you someone, that works on the weekends. Maybe we can find you someone that works late into the evening.

If it’s a financial barrier, trying to figure out, okay, well, are there some things that we could look into, some lower costs, sliding scale university counseling center, EAP program through your work. Okay. Let’s try to remove that barrier to therapy. if it’s a matter of ”I’m not really that bad.”

I think that’s probably the thing that keeps most people out of therapy is like, “well, yeah, I’ve got some obsessions, but there’s that person over here that I’m comparing myself to and they really can’t function. They’re washing their hands 20 times a day. I’m just over here, ruminating about stuff, staring off into space.”

It’s not really affecting me as bad. It’s not really great to compare us to other people. It gets us in all kinds of trouble in a variety of ways. But I think that’s probably the biggest thing that keeps us out of therapy is pride because it takes a certain level of humility to say, “I really might benefit from getting out of my own head and talking with someone and maybe I do need some help.”

It’s hard for people to admit. I think if that’s your family member, really my first step would be a spiritual one would be to pray about it and to say, okay, God, I believe that this person really could benefit from help and will you please soften their heart so that when this opportunity prevent presented itself then they might be more open.

One of the nice things about having the podcast is it’s really been a bridge for some people to seek out therapy. I’ve had emails from various people saying, “Hey, I heard your podcast. And this was what I realized about myself. I was listening to someone else’s story. Then I realized, Hey, that’s me. I have some of those same thought processes in my head or I’m going through some of those same struggles with anxiety.” They hear a story about how someone else sought out help and hey, this person sounds pretty normal. They sound okay. And I consider myself pretty normal. And Hey, this therapist, lady, she doesn’t sound awful or weird or kooky. Maybe I could go seek help.

So really that’s one of my prayers, I think, for the podcast and one of the beautiful things that’s come out of it, as people are writing and saying, you know, Hey, I am going to go to therapy after listening. 

Steve: That’s actually helpful. And I think a lot of your listeners would probably think that very same thing because I think we all have people in our lives that we come across. And maybe even ourselves. Maybe we were thinking of someone and it turns out, “oh, maybe I need some help.” So that’s good. 

I’ll ask you this. What is something that an individual should do prior to getting therapy they’re looking for that therapist. And do they call just any therapists? Do they start by calling the therapist first? What do they do? 

Carrie: Yes. Thank you for asking me this question. 

Steve: I knew that one. That was actually the first question I wanted to ask you.

Carrie: This is something that Steve has to hear me vent about a lot because people often do not do their research before they just start kind of calling willy nilly. The closest person to them that they can google. We have an entire episode actually on this, and I can’t remember the number, but it’s how to find the therapist who’s right for you. I also wrote an ebook about this topic that you can find in the store on finding a therapist who’s the right fit for you on the first try.

I’ll give a couple of key points you need to kind of think through what is it that you’re looking for in terms of what you’re looking for from a therapist, as well as how are you going to pay for therapy over time. Is it something that you are trying to get your insurance to pay for? Can you afford to pay out of pocket?

What’s your monthly budget? All of those factors really need to be taken into consideration before you start calling people. Please, please, please use the internet. It’s a beautiful tool out there. Do your web searches find out as much information as you can online. If you need certain requests such as scheduling, insurance 

You know, you’re going to have to ask your boss to leave early at the end of the day. You know, get some of those things in place and so forth. Know what your therapist that you’re looking at specializes in. That’s a big one. I just talked about people seeking me out for marriage counseling and there was nothing on my website or anywhere in anything that said anything about marriage. So like I said, a lot of times people just start calling numbers and honestly that’s going to lead you to more frustration in the long run if you don’t do your research. Use websites, get as much information as you can from there and then start calling or email.

Steve: Fair enough. And for the record, I probably sit on the wrong side of that. I have this wonderful wife who is very good in helping me find doctors and find what our insurance covers and what it does not. And I am very, very thankful for that. And my advice to you, if you were the one sitting there like me and saying, “oh my gosh, I’m terrible at that. I am all the bad things that she just named.” Get help from your spouse, your friend, somebody cause it’s worth it. So thank you for helping me on that. 

Carrie: And I try to be patient and remind myself that people are in crisis. And when people are in crisis, they don’t retain information very well, but they read, or they don’t always make the best decisions.

Steve: Sure. So let’s get back to you. We talked earlier about your day to day, when you get up and you, you plan and oh my gosh, 15 things have already gone wrong in my day. Then you do all this therapy throughout the day, then you’re finished. You have to put up with this husband of yours who comes home and says, “oh my goodness, let me tell you about my dandy day.”

And not that I want to complain about things, but we all do. And then you say, well, all right, let’s eat dinner, let’s talk. And then you have work to do, or you have an idea or you have to, whatever it is because we’re busy. Our lives are busy. Where do you get your go? I don’t know. Another way to put that. Where do you get your energy to continue? 

Carrie: Exercise is a big one for me. I really try to exercise three times a week and you know that because you live with me and you see me do it. And I have streaming workouts that I do sometimes we’ll take walks as well, and that’s always good. The walks for clearing my head. If I’m with you, I’ll talk to you about different ideas that I have for the podcast or things that I want to do business-wise. And then if I’m by myself, I’m usually either decompressing or I’m praying about situations in my life that are going on. And it’s just been a really great release for me. That gives me energy. I try to eat decently. I am definitely not perfect in that area, but I tried to make sure that I have time for myself to do things that I enjoy lately. That’s just been paint by number here and there when I have the time, we’re obviously doing some house redecorating right now. So that’s taking up both of our times. It’s been a lot of work.

Steve: You do stay busy. There’s no doubt about that. We both do, but you definitely stay busy and there are days I wonder, how is this woman still standing up? Because as you said, you do all those things and yes, you exercise and yes, you know, there are a lot of paint by number, which I think is actually really cool that you do that.

I don’t think I could do that for multiple reasons, but I appreciate that you’re able to do it and it seemingly takes away the stress a little bit. Do you feel that that does help a lot doing things like a hobby like that?

Carrie: I think so. One thing I’ll tell you when I used to do community mental health work and just to give people an idea, I talked about this on a previous episode on the EMDR episode, but we were literally going into situations where we had no idea what we were going to find. I mean, we were going out to people’s houses. So someone could have just gotten in an argument before you walked in the door and you’re experiencing the fallout of that. You show up and the kids you’re working with just got suspended from school for a week for bringing something to school they weren’t supposed to. Just endless amount of stress and nothing was predictable. I would bake a lot during that period. What I realized was that I was baking because I knew that if I followed all the steps, I knew exactly what result I was going to get. And that was therapeutic for me at that time to do that. I realized that was why I was doing it. 

And now something I’ve realized about myself is that having some type of creative outlet for me is helpful because I’m so analytical and so consumed with problem solving and thoughts and things of that nature that to shift gears over and to do something that’s more creative and fun and spontaneous is a good balance for me to balance out the analytical side and the creative side, which has been a great thing. I went through a season of rock painting a little bit before the pandemic and a little bit while we were dating, I’ve kind of gotten away from that and now, but that was fun. I like arts and crafts a lot. So I tend to do some type of artsy thing.

Steve: Yeah. It’s fun to watch. I think you do well with it. So let’s go back. Let’s talk for a moment. Young Carrie, let’s go back, At what point did you make that decision of Hey, I think I’ll be a therapist? That seems like a dandy idea for life. Let me try to help other individuals with their problem. When did you decide that? Why did you decide that? 

Carrie: When I was in high school, I was super interested in sign language and there was a college. It was actually a junior college at the time near where I grew up that had a sign language interpretation program. I had been to a church in the area that had a sign language interpreter. That was my bent of where I thought I would be going with my life. And it was a two-year program I could get out and do interpretation. Then I was in a psychology class in high school. And I thought this is the most interesting stuff that I’ve ever read in my life. I just wanted to digest all of it and read everything I could get ahold of. I’d get a hold of old psychology textbooks and just read them. I knew that there was something to that. So when I went to college to study psychology, my professors were either involved in research or they were counselors. I didn’t like research. I thought I could do counseling. And so it wasn’t this big aha moment or calling.

I think like with so many times in our lives, God uses the little pieces and puts them all together. And then later we look back and go, oh yeah, God was really in all of those little situations that I didn’t realize he kind of steering me on this path.

When I remember that when I saw my first client in practicum. So we had one semester. And then our second semester, we were already doing therapy. That was terrifying. I didn’t know anything at that point. However, when I got done with that first session, there was just this feeling that came over me of like this is why I’m here, like this is what I’m supposed to be doing with my life. This is why I’m alive. That moment for me just solidified everything that I was doing. And That’s how I became a therapist. I couldn’t imagine really doing anything else. 

Steve: Do you remember your first case, your first person? 

Carrie: I do. 

Steve: And how was that? Were you like terrified and don’t let them know you’re terrified, but were you like scared?

Carrie: I’m so appreciative of this woman. She was very gracious to me. And I think that she got something out of it, even though I didn’t feel like I was able to give her a whole lot. And I think it was more just about her showing up, saying some things out loud to someone that she didn’t talk about to other people. Receiving some type of supportive feedback and just having a safe environment that she was able to go on and do different things in her life. I guess is the best way to explain it. And it was also where I learned that couples counseling wasn’t for me, that wasn’t with her. I was seeing her individually, but I saw a couples and I was like “I don’t really feel comfortable with this. This doesn’t seem like my cup of tea.” So I stayed away from that. 

Steve: Wow. And then from there, you worked with another company for a while. And then at some point you went into your own private practice. Was that also scary? 

Carrie: Yeah, it was terrifying. It really was to go out and start my own business. I don’t come from a family of business people.

I don’t rub shoulders in my day-to-day life with entrepreneurs. So thinking about leaving a very stable job that it didn’t pay great, but I knew exactly how much I was going to get paid. I had health insurance. I had benefits and to step off and leave that for something that was less certain was scary.

Funny story, I had a couple of different side jobs while I was building my practice initially. And one of those was that I was a grocery shopper. I was a personal shopper for Shipt before people really knew what Shipt was. They would see my shirt in the grocery store and they would say “Shipt, what is that?” Because places weren’t doing that. There wasn’t a Kroger pickup. This was several years ago. So it’s kind of a funny story that I was probably one of the first thousand shoppers for Shipt. I was done. I had shopped on a Saturday after working. I think my full-time job during the week because I was still at the full-time job.

I shopped for maybe 10 to 12 hours on Saturday to make some extra money. And I was in a JC penny store kind of saw this little ring and it said on the ring, if God brings you to it, he’ll bring you through it. I wore that ring until we got engaged, actually. So from that point, I start med started my practice.

It was always an encouragement for me that I knew in my heart and in my spirit that God wanted me to do this. And if he called me to do it, he was gonna bring me through it. 

Steve: That’s really cool. 

Carrie: Yeah. I remember when I started my practice, I was actually mad at God because I had a good situation in with a group practice for a couple of years. So what I was talking about with the ring was when I became fully self-employed, I was working in a group practice, but I was a 10 99. I didn’t get benefits. And when I jumped off and started By The Well Counseling in 2017. I was mad at God because I had become so comfortable in my current life. I didn’t want to leave it.

I was like, okay. I finally, in two years I had built up my practice. I had a consistent, steady flow of clients and then things change with the group practice. So I was kind of at this fork in a road where I was forced to make a change. I’m so thankful for that. Now I’m thankful that I did branch off and start my business, but I remember going out to the parking lot, praying walking around the parking lot of this big office complex that we were in just saying, God, why, why God, I don’t want to go do something different like I just got used to what I’m doing right now. What I felt like the Lord was trying to teach me in that moment was comfortable is for when we get to heaven. And if we want to follow Christ, we’re going to have to be okay with being uncomfortable, stepping outside our comfort zone, when he calls us to the water like Peter. I don’t know how this is going to go, but I’ll take that first step. 

Steve: Yeah. So, you had to walk and you did not sink. Did you?

Carrie: No, I didn’t. And I will say too that I had two supportive friends that were therapists at that time. One was my friend, Sarah that I had on the EMDR episode. And the other was Jessica who was on one of our early episodes on diagnosis. I asked both of them, do you think I can do this? And they said, absolutely, you can do this, Carrie it’s not going to be that bad. And I was like, okay. You know, so I had God on my side, but I also had supportive people who knew that I could do it.

Steve: What would you tell a young person that is thinking maybe not even as young as 10, maybe they’re in high school and they think “Maybe I’ll be a therapist.” That’s a great idea. You know, I don’t know why I have to be crazy, but what would you tell them?

Carrie: Wow. If there is a high school or out there that wants to be a therapist, my biggest thing would be to encourage them to go sit down with a therapist for their own work individually.

I honestly think that is what has made me the best therapist that I am today is going to therapy for myself because it’s allowed me that opportunity to be on the other side of the couch like you said, and experience what it’s like to go through some of those hard and painful moments. The days that you don’t want to show up, and you don’t want to talk about your problems or you question, does this therapist really care about me or she just kind of like cashing and paycheck here? What’s that really about? I think that would be my biggest recommendation because you can get all the trainings in the world, but if you are not self-aware yourself, that’s gonna hinder your work.

I really believe that you can’t take clients to places that you haven’t been yourself. 

Steve: You’re saying did you a therapist that you admire and listened to them or, you sit on the couch? And talk to that therapist. 

Carrie: No, I’m saying you get therapy for yourself because that would be a good indication of what it’s like to hold that emotion in the room, even though it’s your emotion, you’re not holding someone else’s emotion.

I mean, certainly, you could 

Steve: It’s a start. 

Carrie: It’s a start.  And I have had people contact me that were interested in becoming a therapist and had a question here or there had needed to interview someone for school. And I’ve done some of those as well. Don’t 50 people email me now about how you want to be a therapist. I don’t have time for all of that, but I think it is helpful to talk to people about who are interested in doing what you’re interested in doing. I will say that It’s a process to become a therapist besides just going to school, you do have to go to school, but then on top of that, there’s a whole licensure process afterwards. It takes you depending on what state you’re in. It takes you about two to four years to complete. 

Steve: For the licensure. 

Carrie: For the licensure process after schooling. 

Steve: How long for the schooling? Or does that vary?

Carrie: You would go to undergraduate school and get a degree like in psychology or social work, and then you would go to graduate school and get a master’s in counseling or a master’s in social work, If you wanted to be a licensed clinical social worker. 

Steve: That’s good. I just feel like there’s probably someone out there that they’re listening and maybe it’s not a young person, but maybe a mom or grandma, like, oh, that’s a great idea. So yeah. Hey, try to help them out. But obviously, you don’t tell me what happens day to day, per se.

You are very, very basic. You do not tell me individual’s problems. You are very HIPAA compliant for that listener that thinks that maybe you tell me everything you do not. It’s usually a scenario of I sure wish people would go and look at what their insurance covers or something very broad that way.

But in the idea of not breaking any HIPAA laws here.

What is a difficult personality for you? What is a challenge even?

Carrie: A challenging person to work with? 

Steve: Yeah, not just that I’ll make it a two-part question because typical me, I have 50 questions that go to one. Yeah. What is a typical, like what’s a challenging person to work with, as you said, and also what is challenging about your job and maybe that’s one in the same, but something that every day you have to deal with it, it’s just part of the deal.

Carrie: Hmm, that’s a good question. I think probably what’s funny about this question is clients that are listening are probably like, “oh, I’m the difficult one.” And they’re probably not at all like, no, you’re not the difficult one. I think people who want to stay married to their symptoms and say, oh, well I just have anxiety. This is the way it is. And this is the way it’s going to be. I tend to not have those people because they’ve read my marketing and they’ve probably gone somewhere else. I don’t tend to keep people who have poor boundaries because I have pretty good and strong boundaries myself. So if there are clients that don’t respond well to boundaries and I have to set a boundary with them, they tend to self-select off and not come back, which I’m okay with.

I think that’s the thing about this job in terms of being in private practice, where I was before you have to work with whoever comes in the door when you’re working in a community mental health setting. However, when you have a private practice, you’re marketing to a certain type of clientele, it’s very different feel.

So you tend to attract people that you enjoy working with. And I would say that the same is true for me. Ultimately, people who don’t want to change probably are the most difficult to work with. And I probably am not the best fit for working with them either because I tend to work well with people who say, “Okay, I know this is going to be hard and I know it’s not going to be easy.

And I know I have a lot to work on, but I really want to get better. I really want to heal and I’m willing to do what it takes to do that, to get to that result.”

So that tends to be who I end up attracting and working with as far as like difficult situations that happen with the job. Sometimes it’s difficult when you enjoy working with a person, but then they drop out of therapy for whatever reason.

So sometimes you might be working with somebody for a long time and then they move out of state and it’s hard to say goodbye because I’ve had people that I’ve worked with for a couple of years, and then you feel sad because they have to find a new therapist and start telling their story over again.

But also I feel a sense of loss of not being able to work with them anymore. And I think people don’t really talk about that or think about that from the therapist perspective a lot of times, but we have feelings too. And I think about people that I haven’t seen in years, but I remember working with them and if they come to mind, I just pray that they’re well and that they’re doing good wherever they are because a lot of times I never hear anything back.

I don’t know how life is for them now. 

Steve: Sure. And I imagine that must be difficult because most of us like to be around people who are well off doing well, not well off, but doing well. Maybe that too, but doing well. But most of us, I think we gravitate towards people who are healthy, who are life’s great, life’s dandy, they’re upbeat, whatever it is. And yet, in your case, you’re helping someone. And then when they get to the point where life’s dandy, well, you don’t hear from them anymore. Just the same. You get to hear the issue. Whereas the rest of us, maybe we get to hear how great life is and what they’re not saying.

So that would probably be difficult. 

Carrie: Yeah. When you finish working with someone and you get through the whole process. It’s a little bit like a graduation. There’s this closing of the chapter and it’s bittersweet and it’s like, yeah, I’m so proud of you for all the hard work that you put into this. And you’re ready to like spread your wings and fly now. So it’s sad to see them go, but at the same time very happy because it means that they’re functioning well on their own. And that’s always the goal for me for therapy is to have people functioning well on their own. 

Steve: Sure. 

Carrie: So getting, it’s kind of weird, like in this career getting fired as a good thing, you know, for the right reasons.

Steve: Right. It’s reversed. 

Carrie: Yeah. 

Steve: It’s reversed for sure. And that’s neat for Carrie. I have enjoyed interviewing you. It was definitely on the fly. I think I wrote down five, six questions maybe. And just kind of ad-lib through. I’m not the type for those of you who know me. I am not the type of person who just does things on the fly like that I like to prepare them a little bit. 

Carrie: I do too. 

Steve: Yeah. And you need to so for us, this is very different. And I just thought what a neat concept, what a funny thing for us to do because neither one of us are alike, and so for you, that’s very daring because I can come up with some off the wall questions and it can be a bit on the ADD side or all over the place if you will.

I hope didn’t have to hone me in too much. I hope the questions were good.

I had fun and I hope that you did it as well. And most of all, I hope that the listener enjoyed this a little bit. 

Carrie: Yes. I think that they will.  I think probably a lot of people have questions about what is it like to be a therapist.

So this was a little bit of a glimpse into that, but you know, there’s one more thing that we forgot. 

Steve: Oh, no. 

Carrie: The story of hope. Would you like to tell our listeners about the story of hope? I think it’s a joint story really between the both of us. Can we tell them about your job? 

Steve: Oh, yes. By all means. For those of you who can’t see inside this speaker that you’re listening to, I had this look at Carrie like what are we talking about? Where are we going? Is this a famous question I should be asking or answering? I’m a little lost.

Carrie:  So at the end of every episode, as you know because you were on before, we like to tell a story of hope, which is the time where you received help from God and another person.

And I guess there’s two sides to this story. So I can start and tell some of my side and then you can finish up the story from the point where we were dating 

Steve and I were praying and praying about him getting a new job. That was important for multiple reasons. One of the reasons was that for him to once they started going back into the office, he would have to drive from where we’re at in the suburbs into downtown Nashville.

And that was going to be an hour minimum, probably each way for him to make that trip. We knew that that commute was going to be stressful, but also he was just looking for a change. There were very specific things that we prayed for. And always we knew that it was going to be in God’s timing.

Whatever happens, we’re like, okay, God, we know that you’re good. And we know that you have a plan for Steve, and we’re just asking for you to come through at the right time.

Steve: Yeah and that definitely happened. Things work. And I spent a long, long time in the search process. I’m sure a lot of people who are listening have, if you’ve ever looked for a job now is not the easiest time, but it’s not an easy search anyways. That process isn’t easy.

I did want just any job. Sure. I wanted to be particular. I wanted to enjoy what I was doing and to have a challenge. I’m just that type of person. I like a good challenge. I was able to find that and I enjoy it. I like it. I go in each day and every day there’s something new to learn. And of course, maybe you’re thinking, well, you just started this job not that long ago. So you’re in the honeymoon period here, Steve, and that’s true. However, there’s always something I like. And also I like being around people a little bit. So I get to see people. I get to smile. I get to see people where I work who have been healed.

 And so they come. I see them on one side, come in and they’re looking a little, you know, sad or in pain or whatever. And then they come out the other side and I can’t promise you that if they feel a hundred percent, because chances are, they just had something done that didn’t feel too great, but they get relief.

And so I like seeing that. I like seeing, you know, people getting help. And so I found some of the things that I could do And be useful in that way. So nothing against my former job, just, you know, sometimes we need to change. sometimes that’s just the way life is. So anyways, that is my hope. I don’t know if that was a perfect way to answer that, but we’ll go with it.

Carrie: I think it’s a great story of hope because it’s about keep praying and keep believing that God has good plans and good things for you. And he’s going to show up when you least expect it, at just the right time to answer that prayer. So we are both very thankful and very blessed. 

Steve: I will say this because it’s just a thing with me. Carrie’s going to roll her eyes at me for this one but it’s okay. If this went well today, you can thank Carrie. If it went bad, well, you can email me and gripe and complain. It’s all my fault.

Carrie: He always says this about food, whatever we take food somewhere. That’s what he likes to say. Well, Steve, we’re going to have you back on episode 50 because it’s around our anniversary. And so we’re going to do things that we learned in our first year of marriage. 

Steve: Oh. So many things. 

Carrie: And then we’re going to go eat seafood. 

Steve: That’s my favorite part. I cannot wait. We need a moment of silence just for that. 

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for listening, our faithful listeners. And if you know anybody that wants to be a therapist, maybe you can pass this episode along to them.

They might like to know a little bit about what a day in the life of a therapist is like. God bless everyone.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

32. From Ashamed to Advocate: A Personal Anxiety Story with Jeff Allen

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Personal Testimony, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 32. From Ashamed to Advocate: A Personal Anxiety Story with Jeff Allen

“I deal with anxiety almost every day at some level. And sometimes it’s worse than, or sometimes it’s better than other times, but anything to help people understand that they’re not alone.”

Jeff Allen, a mental health advocate and host of Simple Mental Health Podcast shares his journey through anxiety, how he overcame shame and stigma around seeking help, and taking medication.

  • How Jeff discovered he had an anxiety disorder.
  • Backlash he received from churchgoers for opening up about his mental health condition.
  • Spiritual doubt process that he went through 
  • Prayer, medication and therapy
  • His journey of spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction
  • More about his podcast called Simple Health Podcast

Links and Resources

Simple Mental Health Podcast

Support the show 

More Podcast Episodes

Transcript of Episode 32

Carrie: One thing I have learned about my listeners since we started the podcast, is that you all love personal stories of individuals who are struggling with anxiety and OCD. Those are often our most popularly downloaded episodes. So today I have another personal story for you. And that’s Jeff Allen.

He’s a podcaster. I had the opportunity to be on his podcast, which was how we met and then decided to have him come on and share his story on this podcast. He talks about some backlash that he received in the church when he started to talk publicly about his experience with anxiety and taking medication, as well as some spiritual doubt processes that he worked through. So I hope that you will enjoy this story. 

Okay, Jeff, so thank you for taking the time to come on today and tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Jeff: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. You said my name, it’s Jeff. I live near St. Louis, Missouri, actually across the Mississippi River in Illinois.

And I’m married for this June will be 11 years and we just had our first son and man life is crazy right now and crazy awesome right now I work at a church and I do a video production among other tech things here in St. Louis. 

Carrie: So you’re the behind the scenes guy making stuff happen. 

Jeff: That’s right, yep. I used to be a worship leader. I kind of needed to step away from that for awhile. So now I’m a behind the scenes guy.

Carrie: Awesome. You are very important just as the scene people. Okay. Why did you want to come and share your personal story about anxiety on the podcast? 

Jeff: Yeah, I love to share it any chance I get, because I feel like it’s an opportunity to smash some stigmas.

I want to take down the stigmas that have been in place by culture, that everyone seems to think that it’s such a bad thing to talk about mental health issues. And I want to get away from that. I want people to find freedom. I want people to know they’re not alone. So for me, it’s important to have any opportunity I have to…

I deal with anxiety almost every day at some level. And sometimes it’s worse than, or sometimes it’s better than other times, but anything to help people understand that they’re not alone and to just smash stigmas. That’s the main reason for me. 

Carrie: I’ll say, I think that’s one of the reasons that the personal stories episodes have been so popular on my podcast is because when people hear someone else talk about.

The story, they go, oh yeah, me too. Like, I deal with that. And it helps me realize, I just thought I was alone and going through all this stuff in my own head and nobody else was dealing with it, but then they hear somebody else talk about it on a podcast. Then they just feel the sense of relief, you know. So when did you first start experiencing symptoms of anxiety, even if you didn’t necessarily know that that’s what it was?

Jeff: Yeah, well I can pinpoint back to as early, as like five years old, I found a picture on Facebook, not too long ago that someone had tagged me in. And it was me as a little kid. They were family friends, this person who posted it. And we were out this like touristy place locally here in St. Louis called Grant’s farm.

And I could see myself standing kind of away from the other group of three kids, they were all hamming it up for the camera. And I was like off to the side, just like always just kind of like staring like out of like in concern, you know? And I’m thinking, man, I remember that feeling that that little boy has right there.

I’m like, I know it, I still know it. And I can remember every time we would do something, I’m an only child, so I don’t have siblings. So we would always go and hang out with other families. And when we did that, I would be around those kids. And I could always remember telling my mom and I really would rather stay home.

I don’t want to go, can I please stay home? And she’d say things like, you’re going to have a good time. You know, you’ll have a lot of fun and she was right, but always ended up being fun. But the journey to that place was just full of anxiety. I didn’t know. That’s what it was, you know, as a kid. 

My mom understood probably that she had an anxious kid, but didn’t know that, it might actually be something that was diagnosable because that would have been like 1990 and I just don’t know that very many people were talking about child mental health. 

Yeah. I mean, I’m sure. I once saw that the word, the term generalized anxiety disorder, GAD, I once saw that they didn’t even start, like, they didn’t have a name for that until 1980.

And, you know, don’t quote me on that, but I’ve read that on the internet, so it’s gotta be true. And if that’s the case, then 10 years later, like why would my mother in the Midwest here know that maybe there’s a diagnosable anxiety disorder with her kid. So it’s been that long. So since 1990, at least, but I can remember up until like the sixth grade or, you know, just before I started having the choice of who I wanted to go hang out with.

It would have been from that point on that I knew that I had anxiety. 

Carrie: Well, what was that process like of coming to a realization of, okay this is a problem that I may need help for and getting a diagnosis. 

Jeff: Sure, it wasn’t until, 2010 was the year I got married that my wife helped me see that, this was more than just a character flaw or something. Thank God, actually. Because I had a few relationships that I think ultimately ended because of my anxiety. Like I made decisions or treated people a certain way or, maybe felt too much. Like I was going to lose someone or didn’t trust the relationship over anxiety.

And my wife is just very tough, you know, so I think she was able to deal with that and see past some of that better than other people. So it was in 2010, I was leading worship at a megachurch in Illinois. I remember being on stage for a rehearsal one week. I thought I was having a heart attack. I’m 25 years old at the time.

I’m like, man, this is crazy, heart palpitations. I go to the doctor or go to the ER and they’re like, no, you’re fine. You know, you’re forced to send me home. So went home not long after that. I’m on stage. And I get off stage for the sermon, our pastors preaching. And I go up to my colleague and I said, I got to go home, I’m sick. I’m going to throw up. He was able to back me up so that I could leave. And my wife at the time, my wife worked at the same church at that time that she was in kids ministry and I texted her. I said I’m going home. And then when she met me at home, I said, I feel fine now. And she said, you know, I’ve been thinking about this because you’ve struggled with this for when we go out to eat with couples, you know, you struggled with feeling sick because what if you have an anxiety disorder?

And so I was kind of embarrassed because of the stigmas that exist. Like damn, that’s tough. So I decided to ask my general practitioner about it. She said, man, that sure does sound like social anxiety and maybe some general generalized general anxiety disorder started on Lexapro right there.

Carrie: What was that like for you when you first heard that? Because you talked about experiencing some stigma but was it this sense of here I am in a church leading worship? Did you feel like, well, I shouldn’t be struggling with anxiety like I’m supposed to be more spiritual than that or something.

Jeff: You know, I did kind of feel that way, but I think it was more like in the back of my mind, really.

I didn’t really want to tell anybody about it at first because I just thought that that was like a private thing. You know, if you’re dealing with some anxiety or depression, I also went to see a counselor at that point. When you go see a counselor, that those are things that you just don’t talk about.

Like that’s private stuff. Those are the dirty laundry, or that’s the stuff you keep in the closet. So, I don’t know that I thought I should’ve been more spiritual necessarily, but I definitely thought it would be looked down upon to come out with it 

Carrie: It’s more like this is embarrassing and I feel ashamed.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s right. 

Carrie: And what happened after that? Like how did that progress? 

Jeff: So, there’s a blogger, now he’s a podcaster. He was a worship leader. His name is Carlos Whittaker. I don’t know if you know that name or not. Carlos is a great dude and he was. This was like in the prime of blogs, nobody, you know, everybody used to have a blog and now everybody has a podcast. 

Carrie: We’re trendy.

Jeff: Like when blogs were a big and one day he just, I was looking at his blog and there was just this picture of a prescription bottle of Paxil. And he’s like, this is the church’s dirty little secret. He said a lot of us, he was a worship leader at the time. He told the story of his almost exact same story as mine.

He was on, on Sunday, although he had actually like gotten dizzy and passed out and had to have a doctor come up and he had had a full-blown anxiety attack on stage. And then he just talked about it, like, man, a lot of us in ministry or a lot of people in general have struggles with this.

And so I rely on, God prayer and Paxil, and I’m like, man, that’s good. And so I decided I’m going to speak out about this a little bit. So I remember taking a Facebook and saying, man, this blog really hit home with me and you know, here’s why, and, and then I got a few nasty emails from churchgoers. So that left a bad taste in my mouth for church, even though I was serving, I still am serving at church just saying, you know, Hey, you’re leading people astray. If you’re saying that you need medicine, it’s bad. And my man people, I think you, for your listeners, you, uh, were on my podcast.

And I think you said it on there. You know, if you have high blood pressure, nobody ever says you shouldn’t take medication for it. You know, if you have this, nobody says, but for some reason, church folk like to say that for mental health issues, you should not be taking medication that doesn’t even make sense.

So I kind of had that same response to the particular person who said, you need to be relying on Jesus. I’m like you think I don’t already do that. You know me better than that. Sure. So it must be enough, to seek help from science and the wonderful things that God created for us to manage.

Carrie: Yeah, I’m a firm believer that you can have Jesus and science, Jesus and therapy, and I don’t understand why that’s such a hard thing sometimes for people to grasp in the church. Because we embrace science in all kinds of other ways and other avenues. And we encourage people to get treatment for a variety of illnesses and diseases.

And we’ll still pray for people too, that are going through cancer, but we also want them to go see their oncologist as well. Like it’s interesting, both and thing, and the same thing for anxiety, you know, we want to pray for you and encourage you and love on you. And also we want you to get professional help, and those two things can work together and…

I just believe God uses everything that’s available to us to meet us right. Where we’re at. And some people, medication is a great option for them. Some people have a hard time with medication or finding one that works with their system really well and just want to pursue counseling. And I’m just kind of like whatever you want to do, I’ll support.

Jeff: Yeah. I have seasons where I need both, like, I need my medication adjusted or whatever. I have seasons where talk therapy is something that I really need. I have seasons where I don’t have much to say. It’s always, the way to manage for me is that combination.


Carrie: Do you eventually made this decision to leave the on-stage worship ministry experience. Was this a part of that process towards health for you? 

Jeff: Actually, it wasn’t a spiritual way. Not necessarily an anxiety way. I was kind of going through a spiritual deconstruction situation and I wasn’t sure where I was in that walk anymore.

And so I really felt uncomfortable leading people. When I wasn’t so sure myself and, you know, a lot of people I’ve talked to have gone through spiritual deconstruction and they never went through reconstruction. And so I was happy that for me, I was able to find the reconstruction aspect and come back and feel like, okay, this is a faith that I am 100% in. Right. So, but no the anxiety portion wasn’t, thankfully wasn’t a part of that decision. At least not directly it’s possible that it was somewhere in there, but for the most part, it was a spiritual decision and just maybe even in sort of an integrity move.

Like I just felt like it wasn’t a good thing to kind of not, almost not believe anymore at that point and still sing and lead people. I just didn’t think it was honest. And so I wanted to be honest at this point, I would feel comfortable going back to it. 

Carrie: Can you tell us a little bit more about what that spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction looked like for you? Because I’m sure that there are other people listening to this that have doubts and questions and are going through their own faith process. I know that I had to process, my faith has evolved over time as I’ve become a part of different churches and different streams and faith systems and having my own experiences with God and the holy spirit has definitely shaped things and change things for me as well. So I’m just curious what that process was like for you. 

Jeff: Well, I mean, it all just kind of started, you know, they always talk about the seed of doubt that’s planted. And I guess it sort of started with a seed of doubt where I just started to think is this all just make-believe. My buddy was like, oh, you’re just going to pray to your invisible sky daddy. He’s not a believer that I’m very good friends with. And, he would say things like that. And I mean, you know, I don’t know. Maybe that is what this is. I need to figure it out. And then there were some things that I don’t want to get too in the weeds about, but there are just some things that I’m like, man, I don’t know about this. This doesn’t seem like a God that would, that just doesn’t feel like the God that I know and that I experienced, there were some early, you know, I grew up in the church, so there was some guilt shame, things like that were there for me that I don’t think were fair. I think they were planted by people and not God. So they were like getting rid of beliefs that were based on those things. And then ultimately it was just saying, I’m going to live in this space of doubt and uncertainty for awhile and see if God meets me. And I did feel that it was almost like I’m not going to say it was prodigal son-like because I didn’t leave to go pursue something that on purpose. That was not of God. I just needed to find, I think I needed to find God again and God needed to find me again is kind of where that was. And now my relationship is just so much different. It just feels more authentic and real and less… How can I put it? It’s just not the culture of Christianity that we, a lot of us… I’m 36 years old. A lot of us grew up in anymore. Not that. You know, no making purple at youth group kind of vibe anymore. It’s not that these are the harsh rules that it’s more of the God loves you just as you are a much more, and I’ll get pushed back for saying something like this, but I’m much more comfortable living in that space.

It’s not always right. That’s why I’m saying the pushback. It’s not always a comfortable place, 

but something feels right about it. And so that’s just kind of where I’m sitting right now with it. 

Carrie: It’s so much easier to have a free-flowing and open relationship with God when it’s based on love and not terror. And unfortunately, so many of us grew up in a Christian society where there are a lot of rules and a lot of religion-based things that man put on us, not what God put on us. And so If you have a relationship based on love, perfect love, casts out fear. It’s just different. The vibe is totally different. So I relate and jive to what you’re saying with that.

The rules have to flow out of the relationship and the guidelines for life have to come. The relationship has to come first, just like you don’t, you have a good relationship with your parents. You don’t want to do things that are going to disappoint them. You don’t want to be afraid of your parents like I’m going to get in trouble all the time. It’s a very different feeling for sure. 

So you went from not wanting to talk about this being ashamed of it, and now you have a mental health podcast. So how did that come about?

Jeff:  Well, I was a part of a podcast with my friend. His name is Chris and he had a podcast called pond offs anonymous because he is a recovering alcoholic.

And his faith is a very interesting one. He is very close to God. He also has a very dirty mouth. So you can listen to any of those episodes. We have to mark them explicit. He’s just a very honest person. He is who he is, and doesn’t really apologize for it. But I started producing this podcast for him, just helping with the technical side and the first podcast, he starts talking to me on the microphone. And I’m like, okay, here we go. I don’t have a microphone. So the next episode we did, I made sure I did. And I sort of became a co-host in a sense where he would talk about sobriety and addiction and sobriety. I would talk a little bit about the mental health part of it because I just experienced anxiety, I experienced depression. We ended up kind of talking about both things. So it was supposed to be more of a podcast about addiction and sobriety and recovery. And it ended up being about that and mental health. And we went on a hiatus. We’re still on hiatus. We’ll probably end up back sometime this year. Just a lot of life changes that need it. I mean, I had a baby, but also he had some major life changes. He had an adoption go through, so he had a kid too. So we’re on a hiatus. So I thought, “man, I miss talking about this.” There were some things that like when I was first diagnosed, I didn’t realize, and maybe this is dumb, but I’ve heard other people agree with me. I didn’t realize that you could go to your general practitioner and they could diagnose you with an anxiety disorder or depression. I just didn’t know that.

So my podcast is called simple mental health and the whole idea is to break it down as simply as possible. Invite people on to share personal stories, but also invite professionals on. I was so glad to have you on there. You broke down anxiety and maybe the clearest way I’ve ever heard it broken down before. It was perfect. I quote you all the time to friends and that’s the whole idea of it. 

I wanted to do a few episodes just to help people. Maybe they’re experiencing, we’re still in the end of a pandemic year, maybe a guess they say it is that we’re still in it.

And so everybody’s feeling anxious. You know, it may not be diagnosable, but everybody’s having anxiety. And so I guess I wanted a place where people could go and hear people like them. And then people who are professionals who would speak very plainly and in layman’s terms about anxiety, depression.  Maybe in some future episodes, maybe we’ll get into some other things, bipolar, OCD, things like that. So that’s really why we started. It was supposed to be five episodes and then I was going to be finished, but we have grown a community online. We have a Facebook group of over 500 people now out of five episodes of the podcast. And they are demanding more. So I’m so happy about that and we’re going to do more.

So I think I’m just going to do a season one, five episodes, season two, five episodes, and go until people stop listening.

Carrie: That’s great. That’s awesome. Just something like so small that has grown big and that just shows you that there’s a need for it. There are so many people out there struggling with anxiety and depression and OCD, and they’re looking for answers. They’re looking for what are other people doing in their day-to-day life with this. How do we manage it together.

Jeff: Yeah, for sure. I really see that for sure. You know, people have had a lot of people reach out. And just say, I didn’t even realize that these might be symptoms of anxiety, just like 20 years of my life had no idea that I had anxiety. So I’ve had people reach out in that way. And I’m really glad.

Carrie:  Towards the end of every podcast, I like to ask the guests to share a story of hope, which is a time in which he received hope from God or another person. 

Jeff: Well, I think for me, the hope that I found in God was through that reconstruction that I was talking about earlier. I really found that I began a deconstruction because of the doubt that was placed in my heart, but also because of my childhood upbringing in the church. I grew up in a very conservative church in a very small town in my understanding there, just made for a lot of duty-guilt obligation style faith.

The weird thing is that when I was starting the reconstruction, a lot of old songs from when I was a kid, things that we would be, you know, these old Christian songs that people would think are kind of like hokey now. So it would start coming into my mind. I’m having a thought about that song in forever.

Some old, like rich Mullins’ songs were popping up in my head.

Carrie: So good.

Jeff: And then I would just find that I would find this immense comfort in that. And so I feel like, I’m a musician and in a way, I had stopped leading people in worship. And so I kind of just put my guitar down and hadn’t picked it up in a while and I feel like God was meeting me back in that place with music again, God knew that he would find me there. And so my hope was in, in that, I would say I was starting to reconnect. I connected with a friend at church here. Another person on staff here who does not do music as part of their job. She is a fantastic singer. And we started during the pandemic. We started to record some videos for our online worship at the time, and we both found our passion for music and in ministry specific again, and maybe like even a calling was coming back. So into the hope from that, I found in that it was almost that like, I called it a reconstruction, but God really reached out and made that happen way more than I did.

I didn’t so much have to work on that as God found me again. I guess I was in a place where I stopped feeling God’s presence or stopped looking for God and God came calling. So that’s my place of hope, I think. 

Carrie: It felt like God pursued you.

Jeff: Yeah, in a way that I had never experienced when all my years of ministry. This is what I did as soon as I got out of high school as I went to college for a semester, but then I ended up on a traveling worship team and immediately started working in churches, My whole life I’m working in ministry and in a way I never have felt God call me.

 I felt God calling me back. 

Carrie: Yeah, that’s so great. What I love about that is a sense of God knows how to speak to each one of us individually like it’s an intimate relationship that we have with him. And so if he was going to meet you, it made sense that he was going to meet you through music.

And that was really cool. It was a beautiful picture. And just a reminder that God’s in the details and. I just, I guess I encourage people that if they’re going through spiritual struggles like that, to be open, to just remain open to God, meeting you where you’re at because God already knows where the condition of our hearts and minds in those dark seasons. I don’t know.

I don’t remember who the author was, but he kind of called it like this dark night of the soul, you know, where you have these spiritual wrestlings and you’re in a place of sometimes it’s sadness or grief or feeling like you’ve been wounded by God in different ways. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that.

Jeff: Sure. Yeah. Another thought I was having, you know, with that, with kind of what you just said, and, and I shared this morning in my Facebook group is my background is for most of my life now has been in Western theology, a Methodist. So that’s kind of where John Wesley would have these group meetings. And he would always open up the group meeting with the question, how is it with your soul? And so I asked that question to my group this morning, the Facebook group that I was telling you about. And it was really interesting because it’s not a group. My podcast is not a Christian podcast but people’s worldviews come into play.

So if I have a Christian person on they’ll often bring up God, but I told him, I said, How is it with your soul regardless of your faith? What is it like? You know, I got a lot of not great today. You know, those kinds of responses I got. I’ve had some it as well with my soul kind of response. And so I just, I think about that, I think that that’s a practice, especially as Christians, that we could start utilizing a little more. Maybe wake up every morning and think how is it with my soul today? So that’s just a random freebie for the day because I was thinking about it today. 

Carrie: That’s good. I think just the sense of self-reflection that sometimes we don’t take the time to do, because either we’re super busy or we’re in our heads and we’re not in a. A full-body experience in our faith. 

Jeff: Oh yeah. And that’s one of those questions. It’s like, uh, how are you really question, right? How is it with your soul man? That’s personal, that’s deep, that’s offensive and it’s beautiful. Crazy. 

Carrie: Well, it’s been great having you on to share your story and how this impacted your faith and your faith wrestlings and all of that. It’s been really amazing and check out the simple mental health podcast. And I’m on episode one, if you want to check it. 

Jeff: Yeah. Check it out. She’s amazing. Thank you for having me as always. 

We will put all the links in the show notes for you to Jeff’s podcast, as well as the specific episode that I was on. If you have a personal story of anxiety or OCD that you might like to share, please feel free to contact me anytime through our website.

www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. I am currently looking for someone who has overcome a phobia who would like to tell their story. I would also love to talk with someone who has worked through some social anxiety and how they process that. So if you have personal stories in either of those areas or maybe, you know someone who might be willing to tell their story, please have them contact me.

Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam. 

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

31. Using the Gospel to Overcome Negative Self-talk with John Stange

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Anxiety, Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 31. Using the Gospel to Overcome Negative Self-talk with John Stange

I had the privilege of interviewing John Stange, a lead pastor, professor, coach, counselor, certified speaker and author. John has written several books and his recent one is called “Dwell On These Things.”

Pastor John Stange shares with us his struggles with anxiety and his great wisdom and insight on overcoming negative self-talk through looking at God’s perspective toward us. We also talked about dealing with perfectionism as I am also a recovering perfectionist. 

  • John Stange’s personal journey through anxiety, having sleepless nights, negative self-talk and excessive worries about “what if’s.”
  • Analyzing the root of his anxiety and preaching the truth of the gospel to his own heart
  • Factors that make people who are serving the ministry quit their role after a short period of time
  • “Why walk a defeated life when Christ already secured victory over our sins?”
  • Questions to ask yourself if you really want to understand Bible scriptures
  • Helpful concepts about seeing yourself through God’s eyes based on John Stange’s book, “Dwell On These Things”

Links and Resources:

John StangeDesire JesusDwell On These Things 

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Transcript of Episode 31

Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 31.  Today’s episode is with John Stange who is a pastor and author. He’s recently written a book called Dwell On These Things based on Philippians 4:8. John has some great wisdom and insight into overcoming negative self-talk and seeing ourselves the way that God sees us.

So let’s dive right in. 

Carrie: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. 

Pastor John: Well, happy to be here, glad to be with you.

Carrie: Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Pastor John: My name is John Stange. I have been in full-time pastoral ministry for 23 years and my wife and I have four children. Two are in college, two are in high school. And in the midst of my ministry, serving as a pastor I’ve also gotten quite involved in podcasting and writing and have really been pursuing both of those as avenues where I really have a great opportunity to hopefully encourage people in their faith and hopefully help in a variety of ways. But that’s where I’ve been spending a lot of my time in addition to my service to the church and my ministry, just to my family. 

Carrie: One thing that I’ve found really interesting about you in my research is that while you do have a degree in the Bible, you also have a master’s degree in psychology. How did that process develop? 

Pastor John: Well, one of the things that I noticed when I became a pastor is that a lot of your preparation to become a pastor trains you to teach and preach the Bible and teach and preach theology. And that’s very helpful, but there are two other aspects to your role as a pastor that you really need to figure out a way to invest in one is leadership. So I spent a lot of time just studying leaders and going to leadership training and reading books on leadership and really invested in that. But then the other thing that is typically asked of you is that you be involved in a lot of counseling. And so when I was deciding what to do for a master’s, I decided to pursue counseling and psychology because so much of my task as a pastor involves counseling.

And it probably wouldn’t surprise you to discover that over the course of this past year in particular, I had more counseling than at any other time in my ministry. To the point where I actually had somebody tally up in one given week how much time I was spending on counseling when things were at their worst. And they said a full 29 hours of my week is being spent just counseling. In addition to all the other things that you have to do. So I actually had to figure out a way to balance that a little bit better because it was becoming quite excessive, but that is definitely a role that pastors are asked to actually step in and help out with. And so I wanted to make sure I did it well. And when I got my master’s, I thought, you know what? I’m going to pursue counseling, psychology. Learn these tasks and learn these skills so that I could serve our church even better, hopefully.

Carrie: I think that’s an important point because you can be a really great teacher and lack people skills and being a pastor, you have to find that balance between being able to communicate the word of God and also being able to relate and lead people, like you just talked about.

Pastor John: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And I’ve seen that a lot where people are really skilled in a particular task, or they have a lot of knowledge in a particular area, but they really struggle to take that from their brain to another life. And because that relational piece seems to be missing, so yeah, I agree.

Carrie: I’ve also interviewed a few people on the show who started out as pastors and ended up becoming therapists. And those stories are really interesting as well as kind of like an outflow of just the ministry that they were doing. 

Pastor John: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. That’s great. 

Carrie: We’re talking about anxiety today and incorporating that with spirituality, obviously. And I’m curious about your particular struggles with anxiety. 

Pastor John: Yeah, it’s interesting because I don’t know that at one season of my life, I would have really thought of myself as being particularly anxious. In some respects, I tend to think I’m an easygoing person. And then as life went on and I took on more responsibilities and as I was trying to lead my household well and try to lead our church well, I started to notice seasons where I would really struggle to sleep. 

I’m not a great sleeper to begin with. So I’m just going to confess that I think there’s something biological there that factors into that, but it was even worse than normal. And I can remember certain times where I would just find myself looking out the window of my bedroom, just looking outside, wondering in my mind why can’t I sleep.

And then as I try to lay my head down on the pillow, I would be thinking about all these what-if scenarios. What if this happens with your family or what if this happens with the church or what if this happens with your finances, all sorts of things. And I realized that I was becoming a rather anxious person.

I don’t know that I always demonstrated that to other people, but within my own mind. In fact, I actually think I tried to make a pretty strong effort to not demonstrate that to other people just to kind of portray that everything was fine. But in my own mind, I have to admit to you I really have gone through seasons where I felt particularly anxious and kind of went on a journey to try and figure out what’s at the root of this and what can I do that would be actually be helpful so that this doesn’t become such a dominant feature in my life.

If I’m going to be doing the things that I think God’s called me to do, I can’t be paralyzed by anxiety constantly. And I can’t give this full sway over myself. So I need to call it out into the light and I need to do something that’s going to actually help me overcome it.

Carrie: What was that process like for you? 

Pastor John: I had to kind of analyze what was at the root of it at first. And what I noticed about myself is that I was trying to control too many things, and I was trying to do too many things without help. And I don’t know if that was a pride issue. I think that’s part of it. I, you know, I think certainly it was a pride issue in some respects, but I also think it comes from this thought of not wanting to burden other people with your problems.

And then also just this thought that sometimes you get in your mind when you’re trying to lead, this is your responsibility. So you just think, look, this is my job. I have to handle this. I can’t give this to somebody else. I just have to do it. Right. It’s just my role. And so the first thing I needed to do was just figure out what was at the root of this.

And again, it was just control issues and a desire not to burden other people and just, you know, the burdens that come from leadership. But the solution for me was multifaceted. And a lot of these things I think come back to preaching the gospel to your heart, where sometimes if you’re trying to do too much, it’s almost like you’re trying to take Christ’s job and do it instead of relying on him to be the strength that we need. And so it was almost like a works-based false gospel that I was starting to preach to my heart that can be very unhealthy. And when I phrased it that way in my mind, my theological triggers went off and said, “Wait a second. You can’t preach something false to your own heart. You have to stop this.” And so I thought, all right, well, what does it look like to actually apply the truth of the gospel to my own heart? What does it look like to be content in Christ and to trust him to do the things that I can’t do and to rest in the fact that he is perfect? I am not, and I’m fine with that.

And so this was part of the journey that I went on, but when I started analyzing that seeing what was at the root and then preaching the truth of the gospel to my heart, that really made a huge difference. 

Carrie: I can really relate to that because I started this podcast and I was doing entirely too much. And I ended up hiring an assistant this year and it was super scary in the beginning.

Just the sense of like, “Okay. I’m like, yes, it’s a great thing that I have help, but I’m also like having to let go of control of things that I’ve been doing and what’s going to happen if I start letting go of that control and somebody else is gonna take over, and I think we do that with God so much in our own lives. We try to take control over things that we have no control over, even things like our own health like I’m up at night worrying about all of these things that could be happening to me are going on. And instead of saying, okay, I don’t have control over this. God loves me. He cares about me. He’s for me.

And I think that’s what you’re talking about in terms of having a theology of how God sees us. And really speaking that into ourselves is so important. 

Pastor John: Yeah, exactly. I agree. A hundred percent. 

Carrie: So, talk to us about negative self-talk because I think a lot of people really struggle with that. And what have you found to be helpful in your life?

Pastor John: There’s a variety of things that I have found helpful. And one of the things that I’ve noticed that is helpful for me is to know that I’m not the only person that wrestles with this. So when you serve in a public role, right now you’re putting yourself out there publicly doing a podcast, right?

So you’re just basically, you’re subjecting yourself to the opinions of others. And that could be a challenging task to do no matter what role you do it in. So you can imagine when I became a pastor I was subjecting myself to the opinions of many, many people and my opinion being sometimes the harshest and frequently, I would find myself preparing a message.

So I’ll use a sermon as an example. I’d prepare a message. I’d have it all straight in my head. I’d get up and I’d preach it. And then afterwards I’d have this thought that it didn’t go as well as I thought, or maybe the feedback I got on it wasn’t exactly what I was anticipating. And I would find myself spending the rest of Sunday beating myself up over perceived weaknesses in my presentation or times when I tripped over my words or ways that I could have said something better or something that I forgot to share that I meant to share or someone’s reaction that I misinterpreted or whatever it may be. And I just have all these thoughts going through my mind. Just the imperfections of what I had just shared and all this negative self-talk about, oh, why can’t you be as good of a speaker as this individual or that individual. And that’s a very unhealthy thing to start drilling into your mind. And I would suspect that’s probably one of the contributors to a lot of people who serve in public ministry roles quitting after a short period of time because they just spent a lot of time in self-accusation instead of refreshing their heart with the truth of the gospel and preaching the same message to their own heart that they just preached to their congregation. And eventually, I needed to get to the spot where I started to see the opportunities that I was being given to speak or to lead as opportunities to help people, not opportunities to look good while you’re helping people. And what I mean by that is this: Yeah it was a big change in my mind. I thought I used to wrestle with after I would preach a sermon, or lead a meeting, or whatever it may be. “How did you look doing that? Did you do okay?” And it was basically “how did you look doing it?” And then somewhere along the way, the Lord helped me to flip that in my mind to say, “did you help somebody?” And judge what I had just done by whether or not I was seeking to glorify God and help people. And when that became the measuring stick that really helped me with probably the major area of negative self-talk that I was wrestling with. Just trying to understand what it looks like to glorify God and help people Instead of worrying about how I looked while I was trying to do it.

Carrie: I think that’s been probably one of the greatest gifts that this podcast has ever given to me, just like, you know, through the Lord’s work, it’s showing me that it doesn’t have to be perfect to help people and I consider myself a recovering perfectionist. So I know that I have to go back and listen to these episodes and we joked. Before I hit record, there was a squeaky chair in one of them and it drove me crazy like I can hear that chair. And probably other people are listening to this in their car or they’re in the bathroom getting ready in the morning and they don’t care. You know, they’re probably not even noticing that. And somebody is going to be really blessed by that episode. But here I am and all I’m focused on is that annoying chair in the background.

Pastor John: Right. Instead of thinking of all the ways that you’re producing helpful content, you’re just hearing that chair that needs a little grease or a little oil.

Carrie: Right. So now I’m like, you know what? It goes out. There’s some people that like it and it’s helping some people and that’s all it really matters and it doesn’t have to be perfect in order to benefit other people. So that has been an unexpected gift, I guess, of going through this process.

You actually were really gracious enough to send me a copy of your book, “Dwell on these things” and I am really enjoying it. So I appreciate you for writing it, and you encourage readers to dwell on 31 different truths in God’s word. It’s written a little bit like a devotional, right? To kind of read one each day.

Pastor John: Yeah, it could be used that way for sure. Yeah. I wanted it to be useful in that way. If someone wanted to use the chapters in that kind of fashion, they definitely could. 

Carrie: So would you be willing to share a few of these with us and how they can transform our thinking and self-talk. 

Pastor John: Sure. There’s a variety of things that are mentioned in the book that kind of point us to things that the Lord is trying to communicate to us that sometimes we forget to communicate to ourselves, or we forget to repeat to ourselves after he’s communicated them. And so when you look through the book, you’ll see on day one, we talk about the fact that you are loved more deeply than you realize, and we start off the book with that concept because we want that to be a baseline for what we’re thinking about as we start to adopt God’s perspective toward us as our perspective toward us, as well as we work through the book, we talk about the blessing of walking by faith rather than by sight to experience greater joy.

I think a lot of times we think that there are all sorts of things we need to see ahead of time or know ahead of time to be able to actually experience contentment in life. But scripture shows us that we can walk by faith. We don’t have to walk by sight If we’re going to experience the greater joy that the Lord wants us to have.

I think something else that’s in the book that is most certainly a helpful concept for any of us. If we’re feeling anxious or just worried about a variety of things is the fact that scripture encourages us to have hearts that are ruled by the peace of Christ. And so when we get into the third section of the book that we talk about letting your heart be ruled by the peace of Christ.  And I can tell you just from experience, there are all sorts of things that I have tried to soothe my heart within this world or all sorts of things that I have told myself, this will bring you peace if you just acquire this or achieve this or obtain this or whatever it may be. And there’s nothing this world offers me that has ever produced lasting peace in my mind or in my life.

And when you look at what scripture teaches us, scripture teaches us that we can let our hearts be ruled by the peace of Christ. And when his peace is ruling in our heart, we’re actually being ruled or led by something that’s everlasting, not something that’s temporary, not something that’s just here for a moment and then goes away.

Some of the chapters in the book talk about ways in which we can live out the things that the Lord has taught to us. And so there’s a chapter where we talk a lot about giving grace to those around you. And that can be a very helpful thing for us internally as well, because we start to realize that we don’t have to demand perfection from ourselves. And we don’t have to demand perfection from others. And as recipients of the grace of God, we can demonstrate the grace of God to other people. And I love what scripture tells us in the book of acts, where it reminds us that Christ taught that it’s better to give than it is to receive.

And in a moment like that, where you’re giving grace to somebody else. I think we even have the opportunity to see how that plays out where just giving grace to somebody that ends up being a blessing in our own life and in our own heart. So those are some of the concepts. There’s 31 different concepts that we focus on in the book, but those are just a few of them-just a sample of some of the things that are in the book that I truly hope will be helpful to others. If they’re trying to develop a perspective of what does it look like to actually talk to yourself like God talks to you and repeat a message to your heart that actually lines up with the truth of his gospel. 

Carrie: That’s good. I know that in my counseling practice specifically, I work with a lot of people who have OCD sometimes like there’s a form of OCD called scrupulosity. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast before. It’s where you have all of these intrusive thoughts about God. You know, maybe God is angry at me. Maybe I’ve sinned. Maybe I’m going to hell, even though I know that I’m saved, those types of things people tend to ruminate on. And a lot of times people I work with are somewhat spiritually confused because they’ve sought out teachings to try to soothe some of this from a variety of different sources. You know, this person says you can lose your salvation. This person says you can’t lose your salvation. How do I know who God really is? And I know a lot of times people say, “okay, well in order to know God read the Bible that’s his word that’s his love letter to you.” How do we form this healthy theology of an understanding of who God is if there are so many different teachings that are saying are based on scripture. 

Pastor John: Yeah, that could be a tough thing for a new Christian, in particular, to try to discern. Thankfully we have the internal witness of the holy spirit and he points us in the direction of truth. So I believe that any suggestion I give needs to come under the fact that the holy spirit will actively point us in the direction of truth. I do believe he does that. So I would encourage anyone that’s really wrestling with that to just begin with prayer and trust the holy spirit to lead you in the direction of truth. And then as we’re looking at scripture, I think it’s also helpful to know that when you’re reading through the Bible if you really want to understand the Bible, you need to ask the question, what does this section have to do with Jesus? Or maybe I could say it this way: how is this portion of scripture trying to point me to Christ?

So if I’m in the book of Genesis, I need to be asking that question. If I’m in the Psalms, I need to be asking that question, but I mean the gospels or the letters of Paul or the general letters or the book of revelation, the whole thing is trying to point our minds to Christ. And specifically, when you look throughout scripture, you see the message of redemption as the Lord is trying to redeem lost humanity. And he’s trying to redeem fallen creation, right? Like it’s all, there’s this message of redemption all throughout. And so that points us to the gospel and the gospel is if you want to summarize the gospel, you could summarize it this way. It’s the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ.

And so in Christ lived the perfect life that we could never live. He lived that on our behalf. He walked a mile in our shoes. He’s our merciful sympathetic high priest. He knows all details of all things, and he actually walked it and lived it. And he did it perfectly without sin. And then in his death, he paid for our sin.

He took our sin upon himself so that ultimately we could be justified so that we could be declared righteous because he who knew no sin became sin for us. And then in his resurrection, he defeated the power of sin, the power of Satan. And the power of death. And he shares that victory with all of us who believe in him with anyone who trusts in him.

So the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ, I think it all comes back to that. So now, you know, let’s think about some issues that sometimes we deal with and let’s plug it into that metric. If I’m dealing with, and we were just joking a few moments ago about perfectionism and the desire to kind of get everything right.

You know, whether the chair’s squeaking or whether all the words we say are exactly right, or whatever it may be. We deal with perfectionism. Well, let’s plug that into the gospel. Well, scripture tells us that we are not perfect. But Jesus is, and he came to live the perfect life for us because we couldn’t do it, which tells me I need to stop pressuring myself to be perfect because I’m not perfect.

And if I’m pressuring myself to be perfect, I’m preaching a false gospel to my heart because Christ came to this earth and was perfect for me because in my own strength I couldn’t be perfect. And so, you know, so that’s one element of how I think preaching the gospel to our hearts. Actually helps and it helps point us in the right direction. But then when you get to issues like Christ’s death, you know, I think sometimes we think that we have to be some sort of sacrificial martyr who can’t ask for help or can’t ask for assistance that we need to somehow, you know, die for our own sin or suffer for our own center, whatever it may be. And yet Jesus came to this earth to die in our place because we couldn’t die for our own sin ultimately, and have any sort of redemptive aspect come out of that.

And so Jesus who is perfect died in our place. And then scripture tells us that he rose from the grave. He defeated sin, Satan, and death. And so that victory gets shared with me because I trust in him. He’s already secured that victory. So what sense does it make for me to walk a defeated life or to just spend all this time telling myself how I’m defeated in this area or this area, or this area? Christ already secured victory over my sin Christ secured victory over my faulty thing.

He secured victory over death. I don’t even need to live in the fear of death because he’s already secured victory over it. He defeated death and even the deception of Satan or the accusation of Satan scripture tells us Satan loves to accuse God’s people. And I think sometimes we repeat Satan’s accusations in our own minds, almost like we’re trying to do his job for him. And that comes right back to the resurrection as well because Christ secured victory over sin, Satan, and death. And so Satan is defeated. So I don’t need to act like Satan is victorious. He’s been defeated. And so for me, it comes right back to preaching the gospel to my heart and understanding that the message of the gospel is woven all throughout scripture.

And if someone teaches something that does not line up with the truth of the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ, then that gives me a good metric to know how I can actually filter that out and not welcome that into my thinking. 

Carrie: That was a lot. That was good though. It was a lot. I was really trying to filter in thinking through some of the things that we just talked about like is God mad at me? Well, you know, God loves you. God loves you. He sent his son to die for you. There’s no greater love than that. Nobody else is going to be out here giving their life for you. 

Pastor John: Right. When you look theologically, what scripture says, it says, you know, prior to coming to faith in Christ, we were under the wrath of God, right?

We were like, yes, you were under the wrath of God. It speaks of that in the book of Ephesians. Okay. But then Christ came to this earth and took the wrath of the father upon himself so that we could become objects of mercy. Instead of objects of wrath. And so scripture actually says, you’re an object of mercy now. So if scripture is telling me I’m an object of mercy and that Christ already took the wrath of the father upon himself, then why don’t I just believe what it says instead of just trying to make it up. You know, it’s like, we’re trying to make up the opposite of what scripture says because we want to make ourselves feel bad sometimes.

And it’s like, let’s not torture yourself. You know, just believe what it says and believe what he is. 

Carrie: Or sometimes we try to take over maybe the role of the holy spirit and almost like over-convict ourselves. Sometimes people can air on one side or the other, right. Then they’re never open to correction or conviction. But then on the other side, it’s like, let me pick apart and confess every single thing I’ve done. Even the things that I know I’m already forgiven for. I keep bringing up the past sins over and over and over again. And we’re just really torturing ourselves at that point. 

Pastor John: Yeah. You’re absolutely right.

Yeah. We’re prone to extremes. 

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So tell us where people can find “Dwell on these things”.

Pastor John: “Dwell on these things” can be found literally anywhere. So you’ll be able to find it on Amazon. You’ll be able to find it at Barnes and noble. You’ll be able to find it pretty much any store you go to and which I’m really excited about the wide release that the book is receiving. But if you’d also like to find out some more information about it, or if people would like to read the first three chapters for free and just kind of see if it’s for them, just go to my website: desireJesus.com and you can read the first three chapters of the book right there on the website for free.

The publisher gave me permission to be able to post that. And so that’s right there. You’ll see a link to it right on the front page of the website. 

Carrie: That’s great. And we’ll put a link in the show notes too. So since our podcast is called hope for anxiety and OCD, I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Pastor John: Certainly. So in 2008, my wife and I feel like the Lord was calling us to move to Langhorne, Pennsylvania, which was a couple of hours south of where we were living up in the Pocono region of Pennsylvania. And we felt like the Lord was leading us to move here and replant a church that was just about to close down.

And you know, shut its doors forever. And so we moved here to get involved in church planting, church revitalization. And I remember at the time being very convinced that the Lord had called us to do that, but that doesn’t come with any guarantees. So when you’re moving to a new area, you’re not certain if you’re going to be able to connect with people. And I believe that the Lord was paving a way for us to do so. And in my heart, I did believe that it was all going to work. But I remember at one point very, very early in the process, this was just a couple of days or a couple of weeks, I guess I should say before we moved down to this area, I agreed to do a wedding down in this area, in the building that we were going to use. So in the church building. And I remember at that point, there weren’t really very many people that were part of the church. There were just about six or so active people that had been part of the church that hung on to help us plant the new church. And I remember as the wedding was about to get underway, I started watching people pull into the parking lot and I saw one car pull in and another car pull in and another car pull in and before I knew it, the parking lot was filled and I thought, wow, this is exciting to see for this wedding. I’m just hopeful that the day comes when we have worship services here, that people will actually become part of this church, that we actually have the opportunity to build a church. And I just remember looking out at that full parking lot and just praying to the Lord, just a very simple prayer.

I just prayed, Lord, may it be so. May this be the type of thing that we get to see again when this church really gets underway, not just for a special event, but for the believers gathering together for worship gathering together on a Sunday morning gathering together mid-week whatever, whatever the Lord willed. And so I just remember having filled with the hope of Christ in that moment. And just a confidence that the Lord was going to help facilitate that even though I was certainly tempted to drift toward anxiety in that process because it was certainly a big step of faith for our family to come and, and move to a new area and try and get the church going.

But I remember sometime after that, a few years after that, when the parking lot really was filling up on Sunday mornings and looking at that in my mind, coming right back to standing on that porch and thinking, all right, Lord, this is wonderful. You answered that prayer. You filled us with your hope.

You gave us confidence in you. And now we get to see with our eyes, the type of things that we were seeing by faith for the past several years. And that was a real blessing to me. It was confirmation that when the Lord leads you in a particular direction, it’s best to just obey because he’s got the details already figured out. And sometimes he asks us to make big steps of faith. And so we just go and we get to see what he has planned on the other side of that step. 

Carrie: It’s so beautiful when you’re able to just look back and see how far the Lord has brought you in a particular area and things, and all the challenges that there were, I’m sure along the ways of like, are we ever going to be able to do this? Is this ever going to grow? That’s awesome. 

Pastor John: Yeah. You’re right. Big challenges. 

Carrie: Well, thank you so much for being on the show and talking with us about preaching the gospel to our hearts. I think it’s been a great conversation. 

Pastor John: Well, Carrie, thanks so much for having me on. It’s been a real pleasure.

_____________________________________

I felt like we had a little bit of therapy on myself today on this episode, talking about my perfectionism and difficulty letting go of responsibilities and delegating them to my VA. In all seriousness, I really needed those reminders today that Jesus has overcome sin, death. Nothing is too difficult for him.

As I like to remind myself on a regular basis, God is way bigger than my problem. So allow that to encourage you today. If you would like to stay up to date with what’s going on on the podcast, you can join our email list at www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. Thank you so much for listening. 

Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of by the world counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam. 

Until next time may you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

30. Developing Self Awareness with Lola Sodunke

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 30. Developing Self Awareness with Lola Sodunke

In this episode, Lola Sodunke of Joy In Purpose Podcast shares her wisdom and insights about self-awareness and how it can lead to a greater connection with God.

By listening to our conversation, you will learn about:

  • Self-awareness and its importance
  • Setting boundaries and learning your values and beliefs 
  • Ways you can become self-aware as a Christian 
  • Involving God in your self-awareness process

Links and Resources:

Lola Sodunke, MA
Joy in Purpose

Support the show 

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Transcript of Episode 31

Welcome to Hope for Anxiety and OCD, episode 30. Today, I got the opportunity to sit down with Lola Sodunke where she talks to us about self-awareness. She did a great job incorporating how God is involved in our self-awareness process as Christians and our Christian community that we’re around. I really hope this interview blesses you today.

Carrie: Lola, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Lola: First of all, thank you for having me on the show. I’m really excited to be a part of your, this episode is a little bit about myself. So I will say that I am a child of a Nigerian immigrant. So I came to the United States with my parents.

I came with my parents. I was 12 years old. So I have what will be considered a bi-cultural upbringing. So being Nigerian and living in the United States, I am a fourth-year doctoral student in a counseling psychology program. It’s been an amazing experience. I’ve gotten opportunities to work with clients. We’re dealing with depression, anxiety, trauma. I’ve also got into the experience of administering psychological assessments to understand client’s strengths and weaknesses, and then potential problems and cognition or emotional reactivity. And most importantly, I really like administering psychological assessments because it also helps inform treatment recommendations. 

I’m very passionate about the field of psychology. So I like doing community outreach at my church and just providing opportunities for people to ask questions and provide psycho-education and mental health topics. 

Carrie: Awesome. That sounds really good. So are you hoping once you get your doctorate to focus on psychological testing? 

Lola: Yeah, I would like to because I really like how we can integrate that. Like I said with treatment recommendations and even for the older population, it’s helpful for assessing diagnosis for dementia, for the different types of dementia.

Sometimes some people have TBI traumatic brain injury to see where they’re at and then make sure to make recommendations to help improve their quality of life. 

Carrie: Right. On one of our first five episodes, we talked about assessment and about the importance of that and the difference between anxiety and OCD. Why it’s important to differentiate those in terms of getting the treatment and help and support that people need.

So that’s really awesome that you’re going to be contributing to that. Today, we’re talking about self-awareness, which I guess is a big concept. So how do you define that? 

Lola: Yeah, it is a big concept. I guess for some people it could be overwhelming. I became passionate about this topic because I realized how people become sufferers wherein therapy you see that light bulb moment.

I also noticed that it can also be a reason why people come to therapy when they realize some things about themselves that they would like to change. So self-awareness is a skill that we can work on. It’s basically a way to be able to understand yourself, understand other people, and understand how other people view you.

So when there’s something called internal self-awareness, think about being able to look at your personality. So looking at yourself as objectively as you can. Even though we have our own blind spots and biases, knowing your strengths, your weaknesses, your thoughts, your beliefs, your motivations. What emotions do you experience on most days?

Are you still one that is generally sad? Always anxious. Sometimes we just go through life and we’re just going. Self-awareness allows you to be able to pay attention to different parts of your life. You can focus on my feeling fitness-wise. How am I doing psychologically with my relationships, with finances, with friends, if you have kids with your kids, with your spouse.

So self-awareness is being able to look at yourself as objectively as you can. There’s also something called external self-awareness. Like I was saying earlier, external self-awareness is how other people feel about you. As much as some people might say, they don’t care what other people think. We also know that no matter how smart you are, if you don’t have a good social network, you’re not going to progress much in life.

You might be good at your job, but if you don’t have a good relationship, they don’t see you as a good leader, you might not get promoted in your job. So I’m not talking about when people just don’t like you because they don’t like you, but where people and we’re tribal, so we are made for human connection and social connection.

So it’s important to also know not to be hyper-focused on it to also to have people view you. Are you telling that maybe you just sit there and you’re smiling, but then you think you’re having a good day? So you’re just being yourself and throughout the day, people are like, are you upset? Are you okay? Because they’re interpreting your body language and your facial expression is different. In your mind, you’re happy. You might even think I thought I was smiling. Other people see it as if you’re frowning. Self-awareness, there are two components to it. How you see yourself and also other people see you. There’s a healthy balance and there’s an overboard, or sometimes you could be in a group in a social group where the social norm is gossiping, but then internally your values telling you that you don’t gossip.

You know that you don’t fit in with that crowd so you don’t associate yourself to that. Sometimes there’s a social norm, there’s a social group and it’s toxic. So being able to also navigate your own beliefs, your own values, and then navigating the values of this other external social group and seeing does it align with you?

Because sometimes some people they’re part of a group and because they’re so self-aware of the group and they want to please the group. They’ll just go along with the group. So there’ll be the one there’ll be gossipy, but internally it doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t align or doesn’t align with their values.

So it’s important to know where you stand with how you view yourself and also how you view other people. And to some extent, how they view you. It’s important. 

Carrie: I agree with that. Let’s kind of break that down a little bit. I think one of the things that we learned from this pandemic was that in America we’re such a go, go society.

A lot of times we don’t take the time to just sit and maybe self-reflect and check-in with ourselves. How am I actually doing? Am I stressed right now? What are the signs that I’m stressed right now? How does that manifest in my body? And then I think too about what you said about other people and how they perceive you.

One of the things I had to learn earlier on in my life was that I have a thinking face. And that my thinking face really disconnects me from the people that are around me. And actually, they think that I’m mad, but I’m not mad. I’m just really lost and kind of deep in thought. And that actually inhibited some of my early client work. Someone came out with me and was able to give me some feedback on my session and found that was really helpful. Another friend from church who said, “you know, I wondered when I first met you if you ever smiled.” So then it was my effort really like, I probably need to smile more, especially when I’m around other people.”

And it wasn’t that I wasn’t happy, but that was really how I was perceived. And maybe I think maybe I wasn’t fully as happy as I am now, but I wouldn’t say necessarily that I was in a depressed state or anything of that nature, but people could have perceived me that way. And I think this is important in terms of anxiety and OCD.

Oftentimes we also have misnomers about how other people see us like, “Oh, well, those people think I’m a bother” or “I really shouldn’t speak up here because then they’re going to see me as too aggressive or mean.” Oftentimes that’s not even how people are perceiving the situation. If I set a boundary, people are going to think that I’m mean. That may be true in your family system, but it may not be true in the larger societal context, which is kind of what you were saying there a little bit earlier.

Lola: Absolutely. This is why it’s important to know your own values and your own beliefs because it’s not just about other people. First, it starts with you.

What do you value? What are your own beliefs? How do you see yourself? What is important to you? I gave an example earlier about gossiping. If gossiping is not something that you want to engage in, even if you are in a group of people and that’s what they do, they might not like you but you know that’s not something that I want to do. It’s the same with setting boundaries.

What is the most important thing to you? It’s important that I go to bed at a certain time. So you stick with that time. Sometimes you think that other people are going to be upset, but then you also have to give yourself time to stick to that boundary. To really see that other people are upset or maybe they were just using you and monopolizing your time.

I just have to realize I have to let certain people go. You have to have a balance in what do I think of myself? How do I view myself? How do I want to be in this world? And how do I want other people to see me? It can be tricky and it takes time. This is what I encourage people to do on their own. And when they’re still having issues with what they to seek the help of a therapist. We are always objective. And sometimes it was saying it out loud “I like to go to about a certain time.” And then Frank always likes to talk till midnight. After seeing it, I realized my boundaries are important for my own well-being and engaging in that. Another example that you give that was really helpful was you talked about how a client shared something with you or a friendship or something with you.

So those are like two people that their opinion was important. If a friend from church that they’ve already known you for a while. They know you’re a good person. I know they’re saying something to you. So you’re able to take it in and say, okay, they might be right about this. And this is not what I’m thinking. So I can change it. We want our client to know that, okay, this is my thinking face. It’s not about you. I’m thinking. I’m processing. Maybe thinking of the next question to ask you and things like that. Also, the people that we talked to that this feedback confirms is also important. I can help us to navigate where we want to make the changes and what changes we want to make.

Carrie: Right. Is this person giving me feedback because they’re trying to help me? And it helped me improve as a person or are they trying to tear me down or make me kind of go the path that they want me to go on. I think those are helpful questions for us to ask when we’re receiving any kind of constructive criticism.

I’m curious for you to put kind of like a spiritual lens over this. How do ourselves as Christians becoming more self-aware? Do you feel like that leads us to greater connectivity with God? 

Lola: You know what I think that’s a great question. I don’t think that you should go into self-awareness and leave God out of it. As a matter of fact when people ask me how do they develop self-awareness? I say it’s a skill that can be developed. Start in your prayer time. Ask God to open your heart to what he would like for you to change about yourself. Also, some of us are only focused on the negative. We don’t even recognize our strengths.

So going to a prayerfully where you take your paper, your journal, your pen, and even start with your strengths. Ask him to open your eyes. What are my strengths? Because some of us, we pick ourselves apart with our anxiety, with our worry that we don’t even know what we’re good at. So look what your strengths are. 

What are the things that other people have said that you’re good at? Write down your strengths. What are your weaknesses? I need them to address those weaknesses because sometimes I put focus on our weaknesses. It’s like there’s grace. Even start with one thing at a time.

What are scriptures that are aligned with the thing that you’re trying to change, and just also invite God into it. Invite your Christian circle, your support group into it. And also, like I said, go to someone that you trust. It’s easier for some people to be more self-aware than others.

So sometimes we have to ask a friend, trust a friend, not just anybody. Trust a family member. And if you’re someone that you feel like you’re sensitive to criticism, tell them that so that they can use that in their feedback to you. “I’m really nervous, but I want to grow. I don’t want to stay the same.”

What are some things that I can change? What are my strengths? my weaknesses? You tell me one strength. Tell me one weakness. If you feel like you’re going to be overwhelmed. You can also ask them what are ways that you think I can change.  How can you hold me accountable? So, this is why we can rely on our brothers and sisters in Christ. Whatever you want to share, whatever you’re working on, they can hold you accountable and be prayerful about this. Sometimes you’re focused on one thing. Maybe on giving back to other people. Maybe you’re someone that has internal self-awareness, you’re good there, but when it comes to reaching out to other people, making sure that you’re being kind, you’re being patient, you show other people grace. Maybe that’s something that God wants you to work on. So I would say be prayerful as you’re navigating stuff for when it’s and what to work on and also invite your brothers and sisters in Christ to hold you accountable. Someone that you trust, that you have a relationship with that you trust. Be gentle on yourself. Like I said, you can start with one strength and one weakness. We’re all working progress. So don’t feel like, “Oh my goodness. I have all these weaknesses.” Many of us have a lot of weaknesses and just take it one step at a time.

Carrie: I absolutely agree with that because I think some of the clients that I work with have multiple issues or multiple diagnoses. They have a lot of stuff that they’re working with. And so always starting small. The small changes in our lives and the slow and steady progress. That’s going to be the most sustainable.

But I like what you said really about allowing God to reveal those things to us in prayer in terms of behaviors that we might need to change in our lives. Oftentimes just having clients be able to develop the tolerance to sit with things that are difficult is really important. Sometimes we’re in a lot of pain and we use unhealthy ways to get out of it, whether that’s stuffing, whether it’s exploding.

Whether it’s just complete avoidance like I’m going to pretend like that’s not actually there. Do you feel like maybe knowing some of those things, the ways that we get out of self-awareness, do you think that that’s helpful for us as well? 

Lola: Yeah, absolutely. I’ll give an example there. People don’t want to hear any bad news.

Someone is like, the old teacher that you knew, something she’s going through, something that like, “No, I don’t want to hear it.” It’s like they put a blinder on. They just want to ignore. I don’t want to hear any bad news, only good news. You have to ask yourself. Okay. That’s good for the moment, but it’s not good with helping you build relationships. Self-awareness is paying attention to the patterns of your life. What patterns do you gravitate to? How do other people see you? Maybe when you’re by yourself you’re cool, but other people see you as angry as exploding. It’s important to know your patterns, but like I said, it takes time to work on those things, to move away from them. But even recognizing those patterns is powerful because then you can look at yourself in an objective manner and say, do I like being like this? Do I want to continue in this way? And then the next step is, what can I do about it? This is where your community comes into play and then seeking therapy to help you with that.

It might make you feel uncomfortable to know that while I am one of those persons that when someone does say something that might be sad news or bad, I just ignore it. And I just don’t want to hear. I just shut them down. How does that make that person feel? I don’t even come off as self-compassionate. It might make you feel bad in the moment, but the goal is to work on it and to improve because it’s going to help you to connect more with other people and help you to have more fulfilling relationships. 

Carrie: Absolutely. I think what you’re talking about is especially true in very intimate relationships. If you will have a hard time being self-aware and you have a spouse or boyfriend, girlfriend, that’s probably the person that you could ask first tell me one strength or one weakness. If you’re not married, just a very close friend that you spend a lot of time with.

It really knows you because oftentimes when we’re in relationships with other people, that’s where we notice our differences in terms of how other people approach situations. And we can become really frustrated by that because they don’t approach situations the way we think that they should or the way I like. They don’t do it the way I would do it.

And then it causes us to kind of look in the mirror and go, “Oh, well, why do I approach this situation this way?” or “Why did that make me so distressed when they acted in that manner? And that those types of times are really good for self-reflection. Anytime that you get really worked up about something or you have a conflict in a relationship instead of avoiding that really kind of trying to be curious about it and be reflectful on yourself as well as the other person. How were they impacted when I shared something? How was I impacted when they shared something? That’s good. 

Lola: Yeah, absolutely. 

Carrie: Do you feel like that it’s possible for people to be too self-aware because someone might say, “well, you know, in Christianity we really just need to focus on the needs of others and being giving to them. You know, I don’t want to focus on myself too much.”

Lola: Okay. Yes. Okay. I really liked that question. I think that sometimes we can be too focused on certain areas of our life. Like I said, some people know their strengths, some people know their weaknesses. I’ll give an example. Let’s say you’re prepared for a presentation as you’re about to get up, you realize you forgot to add an image to a slide and that’s all you’re focusing on. Oh my goodness. And you’re nervous. You’re focusing on your heartbeat. You’re focusing on the peak you have in your stomach. You’re sweating. In that moment, I will ask someone to pay attention to what’s going on in their body. Why don’t we try external self-awareness?

Are people in the audience connecting with the topic? How come you’re not noticing the person that is not in their head? The other person that is raising their hand to ask a question. So you have people who are focused more on external self-awareness. They care about pleasing other people more than what is their values and their abilities and their motivation.

So I think as Christians, and I think it’s the same criticism with this personal development. As a Christian, I would never tell anybody to focus on something without including God into it. We all have our own area of growth and you have to be willing to be open to what area of growth God wants you to focus on.

There’s some people that they’re so self-aware that they only notice the problem in certain situations. What about the positive things that are going on? They can tell you the problem. They can tell you the problem with the particular project and maybe they’re right about those problems that will come up in a particular project. Maybe you don’t have the answer to that problem and still want the answers to that problem. What about the good things that are coming out as a result of this? I think with anything we can pay too much attention on it, but the best way I can answer this question is to say, bring God into it.

There’s also a healing that comes in when you’re focused on yourself and focus on being the best you. You’re also more gracious to other people if you’re more patient with yourself. You’re more likely to extend that grace to other people by being patient with them. If know that you have flaws and weaknesses, you’re also able to be gracious like they have flaws and weaknesses.

Like the Bible says. I’ll put it this way before we correct someone else’s wrongdoing, it’s important to you to correct our own wrongdoing as well. And to be able to make sure that we’re making those changes in our life. When you know that you’re a human being and you’re a sinner, it’s easier for you to be able to say, you know what. I have baggage too. I have things I’m working on too. So I’m not perfect as I’m trying to correct you in what you’re doing wrong or whether I think that you could be doing better.

Carrie: Absolutely. Grace is one of the topics I’d love to dive into the podcast at some point in time. I absolutely agree with what you said, that when we are able to receive grace from God ourselves, it’s so much easier to give grace to other people like it has to flow through us and out of us. That’s very good. I know that you have a podcast. Um, can you tell us a little bit about your podcast? 

Lola: Yeah. So my podcast is titled Joy In Purpose. The name of that podcast came about because on this path of fulfilling your purpose, whatever it is, some people are at a stage where they’re like, I don’t even know what my purpose is.

We all go through disappointments and failures and good times as well. I noticed that sometimes when we go through road bombs or we’re facing people telling us no, it can really bring us down and make us question ourselves. So that’s why on this journey to purpose, on this journey of navigating our purpose and fulfil our purpose, there’s going to be disappointment along the way. So my podcast is talking about the journey of purpose and just finding the joy in purpose, finding the joy within ourselves in purpose. So I invite other people to talk about their journey of purpose. Just talk about what I call their purpose stories.

And I also curate conversations related to purpose and mental health.

Carrie: Awesome. So at the end of every podcast, I like for our guests to share a story of hope because our podcast is called hope for anxiety and OCD. So this is a time where you received hope from God or another person.

Lola: This past year, 2020, and even this year, societally, we’ve all gone through a lot. And for me also with my program, there’s a lot of work, dissertation papers, classes. Just this year has just been stressful, just a lot going on. And the previous year too. Recently, I got awarded a scholarship from my program and the scholarship was determined by the faculty and they picked myself and another applicant to receive the scholarship for the summer semester.

And I am so grateful for that. So in the middle, a lot of things going on. To me, it felt like, “Wow, hope.” That’s hope. It just really made me look up and just be appreciative of God and his faithfulness. 

Carrie: Yeah, it’s just always so good. And when you’re in that moment of provision of like, oh God came through for me in this situation. It just gives you encouragement that next time you’re facing another situation that he’s going to open a door, come through for you.

This has been a really great conversation on self-awareness and I really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your wisdom with us. We wish you the best in your studies. 

Lola: Thank you very much. I’m glad that you had me on to speak with your audience. I really appreciate it. 

———————–

I hope this interview causes you to be curious about how you can become more self-aware and what that looks like in your process.

Something I realized that I forgot to tell everyone about is that we now have hope for anxiety and OCD t-shirts. Isn’t that fun?  I designed this t-shirt on Teespring. And so if you go to our hope for anxiety and OCD website, and then click on the store, it’ll actually take you to an external site when you click on the t-shirt.

I don’t actually print them here or mail them out or anything like that. There is another company that does. I did order one just so you know, I wanted to feel it and see how it looked. The color is great. The printing is high quality and it’s a super comfortable shirt. So if you are looking for a way to help promote the podcast, or you just want to add a t-shirt to your collection, you’re welcome to go onto www.hopeforanxietyandocd/store. You’ll also find my ebook on there as well, which helps you find a therapist that’s a good fit on the first try. Thank you so much for listening.

Hope for Anxiety and OCD is a production of By The Well Counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time, May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.

29. God, Feelings, and Theology with Aron Strong, LMFT

Written by Carrie Bock on . Posted in Counseling, Podcast Episode. No Comments on 29. God, Feelings, and Theology with Aron Strong, LMFT

I had the privilege of interviewing  Aron Strong, LMFT, a former pastor turned therapist.  Aron talks about how having a healthy theology about God and HIS feelings, helps us understand ourselves as we grow closer to God.  

  • Does God have feelings? What emotions does God feel?
  • The importance of knowing God and understanding His emotions
  • God is for us, not against us
  • Understanding human emotions
  • Why did God create emotions? 
  • To negate emotions is to misunderstand who God is. 
  • How to manage intolerable and overwhelming feelings
  • Brief overview of the modality created by Aron called Attuned Systemic Repair


Links and Resources:
Aron Strong, LMFT 
Pathway Counseling
In Relationship Marriage Retreats

Support the show 

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Transcript of Episode 29

Hope for Anxiety and OCD episode 29. Today, I was able to interview one of the local counselors here, Aron Strong. There were so many different things that Aron could potentially speak to that we really had to narrow it down as far as what he was going to talk about today. We landed on discussing the intersection between having healthy theology about God and God’s feelings, which helps us understand our feelings since we’re created in his image. This is a conversation that I believe we really can get a lot out of. So let’s dive right in. 

Carrie: Welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about you. 

Aron: My name is Aaron Strong. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and an approved supervisor. I worked in church ministry for 15 years as, pastor and some other roles. I am now the founder and the director of pathways counseling in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I’m the co-founder of a company called the In Relationship that focuses on helping therapists in the general public develop healthy relationships in a lot of different contexts.

And we have online courses and marriage workshops and other stuff. And then I’m also the creator of a therapy called Attuned Systemic Repair and we’re developing that. I’ve been married for over 20 years. I’ve got a 15-year-old son and a bunch of pets. That’s a little bit about me.

Carrie: Are you a dog or a cat person?

Aron: We have both, 2 dogs and 4 cats. We didn’t always have cats. We had a dog once that thought of cats like tennis balls. And so that didn’t work out well. We had her for a long time. When she finally passed of old age, we got some new dogs that were a little more cat-friendly and so now we have a diverse brood in the home.

Carrie: That’s interesting. You’re the second person that I’ve interviewed that started out as a pastor and then became a therapist. Can you maybe briefly tell us a little bit about what that transition was like for you or how God brought that about. 

Aron: Sure. Well, for me, it was a little traumatic. I didn’t plan on leaving the ministry.

My wife and I had met on staff at a church in California outside of Fresno in a town called Clovis and worked at that church for 13 years, 12 years. And then moved across the country to Tennessee, to work at a church out here. That didn’t work out. We had thought it would pretty quickly.

And so I was there for about a year. And then I was out of ministry and left wondering what was next and prayed and sought counsel. I didn’t feel called back in the ministry, which was kind of shocking for me. I always thought I’d always be a pastor and working for a church, but then God led me to pursue marriage and family therapy.

And that wasn’t something that was ever on my radar. And so it was a little surprising for me. I enjoyed it as a pastor, but when you’re a pastor, you’re expected to know a lot more things than you actually know. And so it was always terrifying for me. So if I was going to do that and I was going to do it right, and what that meant grad school and the whole deal.

And so I talked to my wife about it. We prayed about it, felt it was right and then at 40 years old, I had changed careers. 

Carrie: That is an inspiration to somebody out there that’s listening that feels like they need to make a change and do something different. So that’s awesome for you to be brave. 

Aron: Yeah, I think I’m probably better at this than I was working for the church.

I hadn’t quite expected that. It was a hard transition. Working full time plus doing grad school and an internship and trying to manage a family. It was not an easy transition, but it was definitely worth the price. And so I’m very, very pleased to be where I am now.

And you know, that God called me into this and I still get to do a lot of ministry. It looks a little different than it used to, but I still do a lot of speaking at churches and training and kind of integrating faith and theology with clinical therapy. it’s neat to be able to draw from both.

Carrie: Absolutely. That’s a good segue into what we’re talking about on the show today, which is essentially how our theology of feelings, how we understand God’s feelings and our feelings and those interactions and connection pieces. How was it helpful for us as Christians to understand that God is a God who has feelings?

Aron: Well, it’s really interesting is our perspective of wondering about God’s feelings. And I think we often forget that we’re made in his image. So the reason why we have feelings is because he has feelings. It’s not hard for him to understand how we feel. We actually have all his feelings. That’s how it works.

God has all the feelings and we don’t think of him that way. Scripture shows all those feelings of anger, joy, and sadness. He feels hurt. There was at least one time he felt horrible. There was at least one time he felt regret, making the world around the time of the flood. He feels longing. He knows what it’s like to feel misunderstood.

He knows what it feels like to love someone who doesn’t want to love you back. He feels weary at times. He knows what it’s like to feel jealousy of wanting the affection of the one that you long for. All of those things that are regular experiences, or feelings that he experiences and scripture talks about.

So we can feel comfort in knowing that we have a God who not only understands our experience, our experiences help us connect to who he is, and we have a better understanding of who God is because of our experience.

Carrie: That’s really good. I think a lot of times people focus energy on the maybe negative feelings of God like God must be mad at me. God must be disappointed with me. And it’s hard to find that balance in understanding that there are times where God may be upset about our behavior, our sin, but at the same time God delights in us as his children. Our own woundedness really clouds how we see God based on our interactions with caregivers and maybe former spouses, other things that have really messed with that view, harmful church experiences.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Aron: Yeah. It’s interesting that even before we’re born we have feelings. Feelings, or sensations that happen in our body that communicate to us about our experience of something and the part of our brain that does the processes. Physical feelings also process emotional feelings.

It all runs through the vagus nerve in our bodies. We literally feel our feelings in our bodies and that begins in utero. We’re born feeling feelings, but what we don’t have as a language to describe what’s happening to us. So our understanding of feelings comes through our development and our interaction with parents and caregivers and other people in our lives.

Then based on however our family manages emotions or has language for them, or doesn’t talk about them. We try to build models. We don’t think about it, but we just do of how to manage feelings and what that means. In that context then we kind of do something very similar with who we believe we are and who we see God as.

As we build our models of who God is based on our interactions from others and our own felt experiences in contexts. And we construct ideas of what those things are out of the lack of knowledge or direct interaction with him to know him personally.

And so we don’t know him personally, then we kind of like we do with celebrities or other people in our lives, we don’t know them, but we build ideas of them based on what we hear and what we see and how people talk about them. We may read a report that they did, but we don’t know them personally to understand what’s really going on inside. So part of our experience in our faith journey is beginning to understand who God is personally and how we interact with him and learn from him and understand how he sees us. Helpfully, a lot of our personal experiences in life help us once we have a good framework to understand them, how to understand who God is and how he sees us and being a parent is probably a great example of that. Because I can both love my son and want to murder him in the same moment. That’s what it’s like sometimes no one knows how to hurt you like your kid when they’re being rebellious. I remember the first time, you know, um, my son told my wife, he didn’t like her, and the pressure feelings because she loves him so much. So there are times that you can absolutely love someone and be disappointed in them, but that’s not the totality of your belief in them because you love them.

And when you understand the totality of God’s love for mankind and for us individually, then his anger or his jealousy or his disappointment, or those things have a context that isn’t against us. God’s feelings are always for us to draw us into relationship. And when we understand the context of how God manages and expresses his feelings, we begin to understand what a healthy expression of anger or a healthy expression of jealousy might look like. We tend to do ours. It’s very self-centered and about ourselves, but God’s feelings are for us. He’s jealous for us. Not against us. He’s not disappointed to drive us away. His disappointment wants us to live up to all the good things that he has in store for us and wants to draw us into the fold.

And so those things aren’t to drive us away, they’re always to draw us closer to him. 

Carrie: That’s really great. I like how you, how you put that. If we have this understanding of God’s love like at the deepest level that we as humans can really understand it because I don’t think that we can fully grasp the depth and the height of God’s love for us.

But if we can somehow tap into that and filter God through that lens of love, then these other feelings are going to help us make more sense that God desires to be in relationship with us. And wants us to be close to him. And oftentimes when we have certain feeling experiences, our tendency is to do the exact opposite. It’s to do what Adam and Eve did is to run and hide from God, you know, because they felt ashamed or to be afraid and isolate.

Aron: Yeah. It’s hard. We tend to think people are one feeling. If someone is angry, all they are is anger. And we miss the complexity of who God is and who people are. God has this very strange dynamic that we’re not used to where he is fully love and grace and mercy and compassion. And he is holy and he is righteous and he has judgment and he has wrath.

And he’s not one of those things. He’s both of those things. And when we understand the balance of love and desire for relationship and accountability, and managing the context of relationship that keeps it healthy. It’s the interplay of those two things that helps us understand the total, who God is.

He’s not love at the expense of any sort of accountability because no relation can function that way where there’s no rules and no boundaries, and people can hurt each other as much as they want. “But hey, we love each other like that.” That’s not a healthy relationship. Likewise, someone’s only judgment and wrath and condemnation. That’s not a real relationship either. There’s no tenderness. There’s no connection inside of that. And so the context of the fullness of who God is and both of those aspects and all of those feelings that go inside of that, they show up in us in everyday experiences with our spouses or our bosses or strangers in the freeway when they cut us off in traffic. And we feel like that stranger isn’t caring for me because of the way they’re driving.

But they don’t know me. They’re not thinking about me. The context, I think about it and I want to hold them accountable because I didn’t feel cared for. So this interplay of needing to feel loved and managing accountability is the dynamics of all relationships, both our relationship with God, our relationship with others and our relationship with ourselves, where we have to lead ourselves.

I have to lead my feelings. I can’t let them just leave me because one feeling can’t represent all of who I am, but when I let a feeling do all the talking for me, I ended up saying things that I don’t really fully mean. My anger does all this talking and I regret everything I said because that anger didn’t reflect the rest of me.

It was only just this one piece of me. And so I have to leave my experience and I have to submit myself to be cared for by others. It’s a very complex dynamic. I think that’s why we struggle with it so much. 

Carrie: I would agree with that for sure. What kind of things do you see Christians doing to get out of their feelings in an unhealthy way where maybe they really need to be with what’s there?

Aron: I would say Christians tend to do the same things. All humans do. I don’t know that Christians manage it any better than any other person. It’s funny. There’s one thing every human being has in common with every other human being on the planet. It’s not their class or their race or their culture or their socioeconomic status.

That’s not their traumas. You don’t get to pick those things. You don’t get to pick who your parents were or where you were born. There’s so many things that make us all very unique from each other, but the one thing we all have in common is we all have the same feeling. Everyone knows what hurt feels like.

Everyone knows what disappointment feels like. Everyone knows what longing feels like. Sadness. Those are universal expressions that live inside of us. The contexts in which those feelings occur are very different. but the feeling itself is universal. We all have the same feelings. They’ve even done research on facial expressions and paired with emotions.

They’ve gone to every culture around the world, and they’re all universally recognized because again, we’re all made in God’s image. So we all have in the same way. So the inappropriate ways Christians manage their feelings, look a lot like the way the rest of the world manage their feelings because we don’t know what to do with them when we feel overwhelmed.

And so we avoid them, we try to pretend like they don’t exist. I can’t tell you how many, especially guys like to do this, they’ll come to my office and they’ll say, “yeah, I don’t have any feelings.” And I’m like, “really?” And they’re like, “no feelings.” I’m like, “you’re never angry.” “Oh, well I’m angry. Oh, but never frustrated while I’m friendly.”

“Bored?” “Yeah, I’m bored.” “Irritated?” ”Yes. Apparently, you only get the bad feelings, no good feelings, but you got a lot of feelings. So we tend to suppress them. We avoid them. Oftentimes we overexpose them to everyone because we don’t know how to manage our feelings. And so we really want somebody else to do all that work for us.

And so we express it in a very large way, but oftentimes the ways we express it, make it kind of intimidating or overwhelming for others to care for us in the ways that we can. Sometimes we want others to know what we need without having to disclose it. And so we just want them to know what it is. And so we drop hints or innuendos. For me, manipulation means that we’re trying to get our needs met without disclosing what they are.

It’s actually a protective strategy that we use to protect ourselves and still get our needs met. It’s not against someone, it’s to try to help ourselves, but we’re not going to, we don’t trust others enough to let them in on what’s really going on in us. So there’s a lot of different ways that we don’t know how to manage our feelings well, and everybody tends to do them pretty similarly in categories, I suppose.

If everyone’s unique in their specific ways they try to manage themselves. There’s also broad categories that we all tend to fall in, in terms of the ways that we do that. We overexpress or we under express or we swallow, or we pretend like they’re not there until we explode. There’s so many options we get.

Carrie: Yeah. Something I hear commonly in my office. I imagine you may in yours as well. “Well, I’m angry about that but I mean I really shouldn’t be”  or “I feel guilty that I feel this way, that I feel sad about that”, or “I know I need to just like have joy in the Lord, but I just feel so depressed right now.”

And sometimes there’s Christian mask, almost that we put on things like somehow we’re supposed to feel a certain way about a situation. And if we feel differently, or if we have a complex feeling, if it’s multi-feelings, then we may feel guilty for one of those feelings or the other. And somehow there’s this expected Christian response.

And if we don’t fall into it, all of a sudden there’s like this guilt and shame over our experience. 

Aron: Yeah. That’s very interesting when you’re helping somebody understand their feelings, they don’t realize they can have a feeling about a different feeling. I feel guilty about my anger.

And so they could become very complex. There’s times when we believe that we’re supposed to feel a certain way because the way that we would feel would make a statement about who we are. I shouldn’t feel angry because that means I’m a mean person or I’m ungrateful or whatever meaning we’ve constructed that goes with that feeling.

And we miss the importance of the feelings that we have. We’re kind of not addressing the reason why we have the feeling we have. We’re just wishing we had a different one, but our feelings are so important to us because they reveal what’s going on in us in the moment we feel. I call them a temporal truth.

It’s not an absolute truth like gravity. Gravity is gravity. It doesn’t matter how you feel about it or what time of day it is. My feelings are more like rain. It’s raining when it’s raining, but when it’s not raining, it’s not raining. It’s a truth that can come and go. So my feelings telling me what’s happening inside of me in the moment I feel it. The reason I know I’m hurt or feel angry, I feel hurt, or I feel angry.

It’s telling me, hey, this is going on right now inside of me and it needs to be attended to, or it needs me to lead it or comfort it or express it or do something. So, whether it should be there or not is kind of immaterial, the fact is it’s happening right now and we have to do something with that because we’re called to lead ourselves.

Scripture talks a lot about discipline and directing ourselves. I have a thing about that, but this idea of I’m supposed to manage my experience. And I’m supposed to know how to submit myself to someone else to be cared for after all God asks for us to ask him for what we need, even though he already knows what we need, he wants us to disclose because that’s part of the vulnerable part of relationship will be shared what’s going on in our hearts with one another and not just expecting someone else to know it. But on the other hand, I can’t just prioritize my own experience. I have to be able to put my experience aside. Scripture says to consider others’ needs as important as mine, you know, not just looking at my own interests, but the interests of others.

And in balancing that out, but feelings they need to be attended to, and it’s helping me know what’s happening. We would be burned or hurt all the time. If we can’t feel what’s going on inside. I have a father-in-law who has diabetes. He’s older and a couple of years ago he had to have a toe amputated because he broke it and had no idea. And by the time they saw it, it was completely black. It was your feelings help you know this is happening so we can care for it. So that’s an important thing. We just don’t worry about whether you should or shouldn’t have a feeling when you have a feeling, then it helps you know yourself and kind of what to do.

Carrie: I like the rain analogy that you use because there’s some language in church sometimes that I hear about, “you just need to fight your feelings with faith.” And I take issue with that statement because you wouldn’t fight the rain. You know, you might get an umbrella or put on stand galoshes, but you wouldn’t have a war with that. Like you said, if the feeling is here, it’s like, okay, well it’s here. So now what do we do.

Aron: Pastors are humans like everybody else. They have the same models of managing their feelings that other people have. They don’t have more access to those things than others. And I don’t know many seminaries that spend a lot of time talking about feelings.

They talk about liturgy and they talk about exegesis and all these kinds of bigger concepts. And so I’m with you. I was getting irritated when I hear a pastor say that if you believe in God enough, you won’t feel anxious. And I’m like, that’s ridiculous. Anxious is a very important feeling that helps you be prepared when you’re not anxious enough.

Sometimes then you make mistakes because you weren’t paying attention to it because anxiety is a feeling that says, hey, get ready for this. It’s when we try to be ready for things, we can’t get ready for that. We get stuck. We’re preparing for things that aren’t prepared, no something I can’t know.

And then it goes sideways, but a regular feeling is you’re going to have a test and you should feel anxious about that because it’s going to make sure you study harder. And so there’s appropriate ways of managing those things. But when we give a message that if you have enough faith, you won’t have any what we call negative feelings. That’s kind of really disabusing people and leading them down a straight path of how to attend to their experience and lead their own experience and know that all of those feelings have healthy expressions and unhealthy expression.

Anger is not bad. God’s angry all the time. Apparently, there’s a good way to be angry or hurt or sad or any of those things. Those are things that God does. And so it’s more important to understand the healthy expressions and how we do that well than just telling people to have more faith, pretend like those feelings don’t exist. 

Carrie: I think you hit upon on a point where in church circles, at least the ones that I grew up in, I know there’s many different streams of Christianity. There was a lot of focus on knowing about God, a lot of focus on learning about God and less focus on really the experience of interacting with God.

Aron: I remember there was a period of time when church culture was very worried about manipulating the congregation through emotion. And the emotion was manipulative and not authentic. It’s important not just to make an emotional decision about anything. You need a whole body to experience. You need your emotions and you need your intellect. Sometimes you need to trust your gut and your intuition and your body. And so having a whole-body experience in how we make decisions is important, but to negate the role of emotions is to misunderstand the context of who God is. God created emotions to be powerful for a reason because I think he feels them powerfully. He invented things that have you foric feelings. He made those feelings and made it that way. And so I think that understanding the fullness of balance and reason and the experiential, and not just knowing about who he is, but knowing who he is. Those are the best protectors in our faith and especially when it comes to sin, breaking the boundaries of relationship. To me, sin is a break of relationships. Sin is when we turn away from the relationship to do something that’s solely for ourselves. We neglect him or we forsake him to do something just for myself. And it doesn’t include him as part of the relationship.

And that hurts. So that’s outside the bounds of what he longs for in a relationship. And so understanding who God is and wanting. It’s kind of when you know your spouse really well, you know the things that hurt them. And so you try not to do those things because you love them. You don’t want to hurt them. But it’s not about checking boxes of legalism and rules, it’s about understanding the context of the one that you love and maintaining an as close and intimate and healthy relationship as you can. And that’s almost intuitive. It’s very easy. That’s why Jesus said if you love me, you obey my commands.

Not like, come on, baby. If you love me, you would. Or if you obey my commands, you don’t love me. You just say, it’s almost like when you love me, then it’s easy because it’s about the relationship.

Carrie: That whole like my burden is light verse.

Aron: That verse to me is about ownership. Come to me, you were weary and burdened. I always ask clients what’s the burden you’re giving God? And what burden is he giving you? Because he says he gives you a yoke. It’s just lighter than the one you carry. So what are you giving him and what are you receiving in return for me? The one we give him as the burden of ownership, where I take on the burden of owning my own sin or my own guilt or my own shame or trying to control my future and all of those things.

It’s the ownership I’m giving him. I’m giving them ownership of all of those things in my life. And the burden he gives us in return is the burden of faithfulness. That my job is to just be faithful to what he’s called me to do. To do the best I can, and to trust him to carry all the things I can’t because there’s only so many things I can manage. Everything I can’t manage is his job because it’s too much for me. And so I don’t need to be him or take over his role in the relationship. I can let him be strong where he’s strong and then I can be faithful to do the things that I’m called to do. Now that he’s called me to do and trusts me to do those things. 

Carrie: What would you say to someone who finds their emotions intolerable?

I know that’s a really big question, but let’s say there that they’re trying to have a healthier relationship with themselves, their emotions, and God in that interaction. What encouragement would you provide to them or maybe a starting place? 

Aron: People who find feelings and intolerable have had experiences that have been overwhelming that they did not have someone assist them or care for them through the process.

So in those experiences, their self, who they are, their soul was unable to manage the context of the totality of their experience. And so their self kind of collapses. The feeling is uncontained. It’s out of control. And that feeling begins to persist. And it’s a lot of what we describe as trauma is parts of us that remember in re-experience the intolerable illness. The overwhelming sense of helplessness or fear and they can’t be contained. And then my feelings don’t trust myself to lead it because when they reformed, myself couldn’t do it either. I was too young or somebody literally took away my power because I was being assaulted or I was in a car crash where literally I was helpless.

There’s a feeling of helplessness and the feeling has no sense of containment at all. And that happens. Even those times occur to us, that doesn’t have to be a persistent experience because our feelings are still looking for the same things they were looking for when they originated, which is to be led, to be held, to be understood, to be comforted, to be directed in a way that’s productive and helpful.

And oftentimes when we don’t know how to do that with our feelings, and we don’t know how to manage those feelings. So often others are fearful to engage with us in a way that feels safe to us then we stay trapped in these patterns of feeling overwhelmed, having maybe some other side coping ways we try to do with it.

We’ll do it through. Some kind of maladaptive ways. We’ll gamble, be promiscuous or we’ll do drugs or we’ll do something right to help manage these overwhelming feelings. And so, finding healthy relationships, finding a therapist that can help assist that process who’s trained to not be overwhelmed by your feelings and help engage you and help you lead your feelings and help rebuild. One of the principles of the modality I developed an attuned systemic repair is restructuring the leadership of self over our distressed emotions and repairing that relationship so that the parts of us within us can trust ourselves to lead that process.

And the therapist can model that and guide, direct that and restructure how that works in type the individual in helping them know how to do that with others. So there’s ways that we can learn how to manage those intolerable feelings just because they have never been contained or led doesn’t mean that they can’t be.

And in fact, they are still crying out for those experiences, which is why they’re so big. The only way that those feelings know to get cared for is to increase their volume until someone hears and responds. And so that’s what they do. They cry out for help. And when we learned that that’s what people’s feelings do, I can stop feeling attacked by the overwhelming feelings of others. I can hear the distress inherent in what’s going on. And that allows me to be more like a firefighter that runs into the fire to put it out rather than just being like, well, I guess I’ll just let that thing burn to the ground.

Carrie: Good. So if we have some therapists or students or others that might be interested in attuned, systemic repair, where can they find out more information at the moment?

Aron: So I’m developing a lot of training materials. I’m hoping to have some training videos out later this year. We’ll walk people through that. So I’m still in the process of writing. I’m an approved supervisor. So if they want some they’re pre-licensed that can get supervision hours. If we can get enough people interested, I’d love to start some supervision groups for ASR. I don’t know, maybe about a dozen people that are practicing it right now. So it’s not out there a lot, but have a lot of writing and we’re looking for ways to kind of communicate that.

So I’m still starting to let the cat out of the bag a little bit through this podcast and saying it’s out there and letting people know. 

Carrie: Well, that’s very exciting. We can put the link to your counseling practice on there and they can contact you through there. I’m sure that’d be great if they’re interested.

Aron: Yeah. Awesome. 

Carrie: Because this podcast is called hope for anxiety and OCD. I like to ask our guests to share a story of hope, which is a time where you received hope from God or another person. 

Aron: Yeah. So I’ll mention that time shortly before I moved to Tennessee the church I was working at wasn’t as healthy as we had thought it was and could see that things weren’t going well.

And I had never expected to be out of ministry. I had never been as, I don’t know, I was just terrified. When you’re a pastor you have no marketable skills. I don’t know if you write a resume and say, I worked for a church and I’ve led hundreds of people in teams and volunteer teams and they say, “oh, in retail.” And you’re like, “no.”. And you’re like, “managed six-figure budgets.” And they’re like, “oh, in a warehouse.” And you’re like, “wow. no.” And so finding a job was really hard. And so there was a season of time when, um, I didn’t know what was next. I hadn’t come across therapy yet. I just needed a job.

And that fear of not knowing, I felt like I lost my purpose. I’d always felt called to ministry, felt scared. I’d moved my family across the country and then didn’t have a job to support them. I had some friends that were very encouraging and supportive that stayed with me through that process.

And it didn’t make it less difficult.  All of the journey to find just a job and kind of get through that. Just the beginning of that job, knowing that job was not going to be the rest of my life and figuring out grad school and all of that was still difficult, but having people around me, expressed concern, expressed care, offered encouragement was such a lifeline through that period. It helped me get through some very difficult seasons and it made in some ways survivable or helpful. And so I guess what I want people to know is that the relationships are the key to life. We are not made to function outside of relationships. I’m trying to find the source for this and I can’t find it, but I know I read it somewhere that it said that it takes 60% more glucose in your brain to comfort yourself than if someone helps you with it.

In social baseline theory, it’s a body of research that shows that we are not made to manage things alone. Our perception of difficulty, our experience of physical pain, our resources to engage difficulty are greatly increased by the access of social relationships. So social baseline theory says, add our baseline. We are designed to be social. We are designed for relationship. And I would say that if you have a lack of relationships in your life, you feel isolated, you feel alone. Oftentimes we try to solve that by being more alone, because if we feel like I get to choose my abandonment, then it feels less painful than if someone else has abandoned me. But then I’m still stuck alone and I’ve encouraged you that relationships are the key to life. And if you don’t have them, they’re accessible to you.

Start with therapy, find a small group, find a support group, find a place of people who know what it is to be like you, or have gone through similar experiences. Allow that to find hope that it’s survivable to know that you’re not in it alone, that people know how you feel. Everyone knows how you feel. Maybe not your context, but the feelings are universal. And when we share those feelings with each other, then suddenly, you know, we have on our wall, in our waiting room, we have a little chalkboard and we write little things there. And right now we are saying, “pain shared is pain divided, joy shared is joy multiplied.”

That’s the context of relationships and what they do. You’re made for relationship. And even if there’s not a human near you at the moment that feels safe, God loves you. He is for you. He created you. He sacrificed for you, and he wants to lead you to fullness to the person he’s created you to be that you have yet to fully realize because of the obstacles in your life. But God’s promises that he worked all those things for good, not the bad things are good. He’s a Redeemer and a restorer, and he can lead us through that. So there is hope because the God of the universe loves you and wants the best for you. We also have to be willing to participate in that process and take those risks.

And that’s hard and scary, but there’s always hope. 

Carrie: Good. Thank you for sharing all of that with us today. I think this is a really great thing for people to think about and process what are some ways that they can have healthier relationships with their feelings with God, with other people. It’s all interconnected together.

Aron: There’s a way that we’re called to live. There’s a way that life is designed to work. And when we’re outside of that, everything is really, really hard. But when we do it the way that God designed it to be, it feels easy. When couples or individuals end therapy, I’m like, who wants to go back to the old way?

And they’re just like, oh no, not at all. How much easier is this week? Oh, it’s so much easier, but it’s so hard to get to the easier way because it’s scary and risky and it takes a lot of hard work. But when you get to the other side, that journey is so worth the effort. The rewards are good.

And probably even greater because of the effort required to get there in the first place. 

Carrie: Absolutely. 

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There are so many different ideas being circulated around about our feelings and how to deal with them. Some of those are healthy and some of them are unhealthy things that we’ve picked up maybe from our environment or family of origin. So it’s nice to have this conversation in the context of biblical Christianity. By the time this episode airs, I will have been on a recording blitz in the month of May. Recording all kinds of episodes to take us through the summer. I know that we’re going to be diving into things like emotional eating, body image, learning to see ourselves the way that God sees us in dealing with doubt, just to name a few. There are so many more interview topics that I have that I’m working tirelessly on finding guests for all the time. And if you have any suggestions for me, whether they be guest suggestions or topics suggestions that I can find guests for, I would love to hear from you.

And you can reach me via the contact page of our website any time www.hopeforanxietyandocd.com. 

Thank you for listening. Hope for anxiety and OCD is a production of by the world counseling in Smyrna, Tennessee. Our original music is by Brandon Mangrum and audio editing is completed by Benjamin Bynam.

Until next time. May you be comforted by God’s great love for you.